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Bruno
07-05-2014, 10:48 PM
Voting for the #5 player of all time has concluded. The winner is...

Shaquille O'neal

23.7 PPG | 10.9 RPG | 2.5 AST | 2.3 BPG | .586% TS | 26.4 PER | 181.7 WS

Achievements:

15 time All-Star
4 NBA Championships
1 Time MVP
3 Time Finals MVP
3 Time AllStar Game MVP
8 Time All-NBA First Teamer
Led the League in FG% 10 times
Led the League in PER 5 times
6th on the all-time scoring list

Voting:

Shaquille O'Neal = 29 votes
Larry Bird = 17 votes
Tim Duncan = 15 votes
LeBron James = 12 votes
Bill Russell = 9 votes
Hakeem Olajuwon = 7 votes
Kobe Bryant = 6 votes
Moses Malone = 1 vote
Jerry West = 0 vote
Oscar Robertson = 0 votes
Julius Erving = 0 votes
David Robinson = 0 votes
Elgin Baylor = 0 votes

The List:

1. Michael Jordan (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?868731-PSD-s-Official-1-Player-of-All-Time)
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?868922-PSD-s-Official-2-NBA-Player-of-All-Time)
3. Wilt Chamberlain (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?869144-PSD-s-Official-3-Player-of-All-Time)
4. Magic Johnson (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?869307-PSD-s-Official-4-Player-of-All-Time)
5. Shaquille O'neal (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?869509-PSD-s-Official-5-NBA-Player-of-All-Time)

----------------

Please vote, explain your vote and NOMINATE someone else to be added to the poll.

jerellh528
07-05-2014, 10:52 PM
Kobe here, his mix of being a highly effective two way player, accolades, skills, all time stats leaderboards, and longevity, especially as a perimeter player puts him over the top IMO.

Bruno
07-05-2014, 10:55 PM
Duncan is the best two way player left on the board. he has a good argument for the best blend of accolades, longevity, and peak out of any player left on the board.

i think things get interesting once Duncan is off the board.

FlashBolt
07-05-2014, 10:59 PM
Duncan is the best two way player left on the board. he has a good argument for the best blend of accolades, longevity, and peak out of any player left on the board.

i think things get interesting once Duncan is off the board.

Hakeem is still here so I doubt Duncan is the better two way player. Kobe for me and then Hakeem then Duncan.

jerellh528
07-05-2014, 11:00 PM
Duncan is the best two way player left on the board. he has a good argument for the best blend of accolades, longevity, and peak out of any player left on the board.

i think things get interesting once Duncan is off the board.

I give Kobe the nod due to having sustained his normal level longer, Duncan was sub par for a lot of years even with his minutes highly regulated. Also Duncan is a great big amongst a bevy of great bigs. As far as perimeter players, Kobe stands alone behind only mj right now. Also IMHO Kobe had the higher peak as well.

Bruno
07-05-2014, 11:01 PM
I give Kobe the nod due to having sustained his normal level longer, Duncan was sub par for a lot of year even with his minutes highly regulated. Also Duncan is a great big amongst a bevy of great bigs, as far as perimeter players, Kobe stands alone behind only mj right now.

i agree, if I had my way I'd put kobe ahead of magic.

that doesn't make him better than Duncan or Hakeem by default though.

Bruno
07-05-2014, 11:05 PM
Hakeem is still here so I doubt Duncan is the better two way player. Kobe for me and then Hakeem then Duncan.

hakeem has an argument. but Duncan always has a higher statistical impact at his peak in terms of advanced line. his accolades are better. hakeem holds his own in the two way player debate against Duncan but he doesn't in peak, longevity, or team success.

despite Hakeems brilliance, why are his advanced figures so much lower than Shaq and Duncans? i think thats a debate we can have. the blind eye says Hakeem is just as good as Duncan and possibly Shaq (if not maybe better), but why don't the peak advanced lines equal each other ?

hakeems advanced line looks a lot more like Kobes than it does Shaqs. why?

FlashBolt
07-05-2014, 11:11 PM
Can we stop seeing LeBron votes until the latter end? There is no way you can make an argument of LeBron over Duncan, Hakeem, or Kobe.

jerellh528
07-05-2014, 11:11 PM
hakeem has an argument. but Duncan always has a higher statistical impact at his peak in terms of advanced line. his accolades are better. hakeem holds his own in the two way player debate against Duncan but he doesn't in peak, longevity, or team success.

despite Hakeems brilliance, why are his advanced figures so much lower than Shaq and Duncans? i think thats a debate we can have. the blind eye says Hakeem is just as good as Duncan and possibly Shaq (if not maybe better), but why don't the peak advanced lines equal each other ?

hakeems advanced line looks a lot more like Kobes than it does Shaqs. why?

Perhaps you're looking too deep into theses advanced stats. Without digging into them I would consider Hakeem to not only be better than Duncan defensively, but offensively as well. Advanced stats can only portray so much, otherwise what's the point of having an opinion and watching the games?

Raps08-09 Champ
07-05-2014, 11:13 PM
Gotta vote Kobe. I'm a Lakers fan.

amos1er
07-05-2014, 11:15 PM
Duncan is the best two way player left on the board. he has a good argument for the best blend of accolades, longevity, and peak out of any player left on the board.

i think things get interesting once Duncan is off the board.

Why all this talk of being an individual player... Being a good two way player statistically, does not correlate to having a greater impact on your team. This cannot be quantified through individual advanced statistics. Thought we were talking about All-Time greatness here, not who you would want to start a franchise with or pick on your fantasy team.

amos1er
07-05-2014, 11:16 PM
Can we stop seeing LeBron votes until the latter end? There is no way you can make an argument of LeBron over Duncan, Hakeem, or Kobe.

Nice. How big of you to admit that.

Bruno
07-05-2014, 11:17 PM
Perhaps you're looking too deep into theses advanced stats. Without digging into them I would consider Hakeem to not only be better than Duncan defensively, but offensively as well. Advanced stats can only portray so much, otherwise what's the point of having an opinion and watching the games?

you mix it in with everything. eye test, numbers, accolades, team success, ect. ignoring the numbers is just as bad as relying on only the numbers.

Bruno
07-05-2014, 11:19 PM
Why all this talk of being an individual player... Being a good two way player statistically, does not correlate to having a greater impact on your team. This cannot be quantified through individual advanced statistics. Thought we were talking about All-Time greatness here, not who you would want to start a franchise with or pick on your fantasy team.

how do you evaluate being a good two way player statistically?

jerellh528
07-05-2014, 11:20 PM
you mix it in with everything. eye test, numbers, accolades, team success, ect. ignoring the numbers is just as bad as relying on only the numbers.

Exactly.

bucketss
07-05-2014, 11:23 PM
larry.

Raps08-09 Champ
07-05-2014, 11:24 PM
Can we stop seeing LeBron votes until the latter end? There is no way you can make an argument of LeBron over Duncan, Hakeem, or Kobe.

You wouldn't vote the 7th best player at #6?

jerellh528
07-05-2014, 11:25 PM
You wouldn't vote the 7th best player at #6?

He already voted Duncan at number 6

amos1er
07-05-2014, 11:29 PM
how do you evaluate being a good two way player statistically?

Not sure of the myself, but I've seen a lot on here attempt to try.

Raps08-09 Champ
07-05-2014, 11:34 PM
He already voted Duncan at number 6

Yea that's fair. The 4th best player shouldn't have slipped to 6. At least he can vote correctly Lebron at 7 where he belongs.

ManningToTyree
07-05-2014, 11:40 PM
Larry Legend

Dr Positivity
07-06-2014, 12:23 AM
I vote Hakeem, elite defensive anchor, ultra valuable post inside/out game. Near perfect player

Nominate KG

Dade County
07-06-2014, 01:00 AM
Bill Russell here...

Chronz
07-06-2014, 01:05 AM
Between Duncan and Hakeem for me. One is more skilled, the other more fundamentally sound and athletically gifted. Went Duncan because I think these 2 at their best are fairly close, but Duncan's longevity probably shreds Hakeems.

valade16
07-06-2014, 01:11 AM
hakeem has an argument. but Duncan always has a higher statistical impact at his peak in terms of advanced line. his accolades are better. hakeem holds his own in the two way player debate against Duncan but he doesn't in peak, longevity, or team success.

despite Hakeems brilliance, why are his advanced figures so much lower than Shaq and Duncans? i think thats a debate we can have. the blind eye says Hakeem is just as good as Duncan and possibly Shaq (if not maybe better), but why don't the peak advanced lines equal each other ?

hakeems advanced line looks a lot more like Kobes than it does Shaqs. why?

Hakeem was also well known for not playing all out against inferior competition. I imagine if he tried every night his advanced line would look prettier.

FlashBolt
07-06-2014, 01:36 AM
Looks like Timmy wins this. Where would you guys rank him if he didn't win this year? Same or no?

jerellh528
07-06-2014, 01:44 AM
Looks like Timmy wins this. Where would you guys rank him if he didn't win this year? Same or no?

It's not a surprise even though Kobe is more suited for this slot. I could see why people choose Duncan though, he just came off a championship win.

Chronz
07-06-2014, 02:38 AM
I dont think this vote is over at all. Hakeem and Kobe are both immensely popular, but Duncan is riding a high right now.

I think Duncan is the obvious choice, Hakeem is in that tier with Kobe and Bird that come next.



For the sake of argument tho, we should identify what we consider to be Dream and Duncan's peak stretch of play.

amos1er
07-06-2014, 04:47 AM
I dont think this vote is over at all. Hakeem and Kobe are both immensely popular, but Duncan is riding a high right now.

I think Duncan is the obvious choice, Hakeem is in that tier with Kobe and Bird that come next.



For the sake of argument tho, we should identify what we consider to be Dream and Duncan's peak stretch of play.

Wow... We actually agree. The real debate is going to start after we rank Kobe, Bird, and Hakeem after this. I got Russell at number ten, then West, Big O, and Moses. Then Lebron at fourteen.

I say that Duncan had a 7 year peak from 98-05
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/duncati01.html#1999-2005-sum:per_game

Hakeem's IMO was all over the place from a consistency standpoint and didn't have a great long stretch by his standards. From 92-96 He had his best peak.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/olajuha01.html#1993-1996-sum:per_game

NYKalltheway
07-06-2014, 05:04 AM
Probably should be Hakeem the Dream, Oscar or one of the two Jerry Wests on the poll... Voted for Hakeem. Larry Bird also a choice. Tim Duncan should be #10. Kobe and Lebron should not be getting any votes here!

Chronz
07-06-2014, 05:58 AM
Since I voted Duncan, I'll let him set the standard:

Estimating Peak Run
Duncan : Age 25-30
Usage/O-RTG : 28.5% / 111 ORTG / 82.5 WS

Duncan is so amazingly consistent that his peak stretch really sticks out. There was a significant blip at 29, but it was strictly due to plantar fasciitis. He was more nimble come playoff time, where he proceeded to dominate in losses. Subjectively, these happen to be the years he won his 3 most impressive championships, that they coincide with individual dominance is a testament to the impact he has on both ends.


Hakeem: Age ???


I believe Bruno made the comparison but Dream is like the Kobe version for Centers. Mostly regarded for their versatile skillsets and not so much the efficiency of their play. Like Kobe, people assume he was a dominant 2-way player throughout the majority of his career. I cant pinpoint exactly when Dream's defense began to slip noticeably but I can tell you it took Dream YEARS to master the art of passing. Young Dream was, explosive/quicker than anyone at his position but abit of a blackhole.
Like Kobe, Dream had his ups and downs throughout his career, if you had to pinpoint any particular stretch it would have to be the championship seasons. Dream really only has 1 single season in which his production is on par with Duncan's best. If you want to average out Dreams best 6 year stretch you get this;

Usage/O-RTG : 29.0% / 110 ORTG / 69.0 WS


Duncan a notch ahead. He was on better teams but even if we isolate the years they were both in comparable situations, Duncan still won and produced more individually.

hidalgo
07-06-2014, 09:05 AM
Tim Duncan

DR_1
07-06-2014, 09:38 AM
Russell

RocketLoc80
07-06-2014, 10:37 AM
Probably should be Hakeem the Dream, Oscar or one of the two Jerry Wests on the poll... Voted for Hakeem. Larry Bird also a choice. Tim Duncan should be #10. Kobe and Lebron should not be getting any votes here!

100% agree Lebron should be no lower than 7 or 8 and Kobe should be no lower than 9 or 10

RocketLoc80
07-06-2014, 10:38 AM
Wow... We actually agree. The real debate is going to start after we rank Kobe, Bird, and Hakeem after this. I got Russell at number ten, then West, Big O, and Moses. Then Lebron at fourteen.

I say that Duncan had a 7 year peak from 98-05
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/duncati01.html#1999-2005-sum:per_game

Hakeem's IMO was all over the place from a consistency standpoint and didn't have a great long stretch by his standards. From 92-96 He had his best peak.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/olajuha01.html#1993-1996-sum:per_game

Dud you can`t be serious man? You shouldn`t have a vote in this poll at all

alexander_37
07-06-2014, 10:43 AM
Hakeem also regularly played against way tougher competition much more often in an era more geared against post players. He dominated the best of the best night in and night out. Duncan had softer competition.

Chronz
07-06-2014, 01:38 PM
Hakeem also regularly played against way tougher competition much more often in an era more geared against post players. He dominated the best of the best night in and night out. Duncan had softer competition.

When did this alleged era transformation begin? What makes you think the comp was significantly different? Duncan played in a tougher defensive environment with rules geared against bigmen IMO.

alexander_37
07-06-2014, 01:43 PM
When did this alleged era transformation begin? What makes you think the comp was significantly different? Duncan played in a tougher defensive environment with rules geared against bigmen IMO.
Hakeem regularily faced ewing, robinson, shaq rodman and others

Chronz
07-06-2014, 02:14 PM
Hakeem regularily faced ewing, robinson, shaq rodman and others
Duncan faced some heavy competition too, only he did so in a tougher defensive era for bigmen.

Im just wondering what year you think the eras begin to differentiate.

Shlumpledink
07-06-2014, 02:43 PM
The people are still hesitant to reward the greatest two-way player ever.

MiamiBoy77
07-06-2014, 02:52 PM
i went russell.. him and duncan should be the next 2 but i think the guy with the most rings deserves some consideration to the #6 spot

Lucky.
07-06-2014, 03:05 PM
Vote: Tim Duncan
Nominate: Kevin Garnett

FlashBolt
07-06-2014, 03:43 PM
Hakeem regularily faced ewing, robinson, shaq rodman and others

With all due respect, Hakeem never faced the Shaq that Duncan had to face.

FlashBolt
07-06-2014, 03:44 PM
Kobe has 5 rings, and scored 81 in a game.

Just stop that non-sense.

What does scoring 81 points in a game have to do with anything?

alexander_37
07-06-2014, 03:47 PM
With all due respect, Hakeem never faced the Shaq that Duncan had to face.
He absolutely worked shaq in one of his most productive seasons.

FlashBolt
07-06-2014, 04:02 PM
He absolutely worked shaq in one of his most productive seasons.

http://speedcap.net/sharing/files/8b/27/8b27455659b0964393e5f2c110c71027.png

http://speedcap.net/sharing/files/52/ce/52ced25bb9eb5d53cd3d0ca459c8b138.png

LAL Shaq manhandled Hakeem. Of course, Hakeem was out of his prime but LAL Shaq was much better than his Orlando days despite Shaq having arguably better numbers in his Orlando days.

Bruno
07-06-2014, 04:55 PM
Not sure of the myself, but I've seen a lot on here attempt to try.
its easier to do it for players today. we can look at numbers like opponent fg% at the rim. but those figures aren't available for the classic players. we could talk win-shares, but its connected to team defensive success (i don't mind talking about bigs here since they are the anchor of those defenses). Other than some of the newer figures it is mostly eye test for me personally in regards to defense. its easier to split gauging individual defensive play from the boarder scope of statistics in general. i also think defensive teams are a decent place to start, despite many famous players getting in on name value towards the end of their careers.


Hakeem was also well known for not playing all out against inferior competition. I imagine if he tried every night his advanced line would look prettier.
that would make sense.


Looks like Timmy wins this. Where would you guys rank him if he didn't win this year? Same or no?
id be inclined to put him lower, but really he has the argument with or without the most recent championship.

I dont think this vote is over at all. Hakeem and Kobe are both immensely popular, but Duncan is riding a high right now.

I think Duncan is the obvious choice, Hakeem is in that tier with Kobe and Bird that come next.



For the sake of argument tho, we should identify what we consider to be Dream and Duncan's peak stretch of play.
Duncans is probably 02-07, Hakeems is probably '89-95? Hakeem is hard to define in these terms. even if we want to call 89-95 his run, he was a bit mortal in '92. looking at the numbers he missed 26 games in 1991 and wasn't an all-star. from that season forward his defensive win-shares figures level out. that split that you've mentioned regarding Hakeem- probably starts in '92 right?


Probably should be Hakeem the Dream, Oscar or one of the two Jerry Wests on the poll... Voted for Hakeem. Larry Bird also a choice. Tim Duncan should be #10. Kobe and Lebron should not be getting any votes here!
my mistake.


Since I voted Duncan, I'll let him set the standard:

Estimating Peak Run
Duncan : Age 25-30
Usage/O-RTG : 28.5% / 111 ORTG / 82.5 WS

Duncan is so amazingly consistent that his peak stretch really sticks out. There was a significant blip at 29, but it was strictly due to plantar fasciitis. He was more nimble come playoff time, where he proceeded to dominate in losses. Subjectively, these happen to be the years he won his 3 most impressive championships, that they coincide with individual dominance is a testament to the impact he has on both ends.


Hakeem: Age ???


I believe Bruno made the comparison but Dream is like the Kobe version for Centers. Mostly regarded for their versatile skillsets and not so much the efficiency of their play. Like Kobe, people assume he was a dominant 2-way player throughout the majority of his career. I cant pinpoint exactly when Dream's defense began to slip noticeably but I can tell you it took Dream YEARS to master the art of passing. Young Dream was, explosive/quicker than anyone at his position but abit of a blackhole.
Like Kobe, Dream had his ups and downs throughout his career, if you had to pinpoint any particular stretch it would have to be the championship seasons. Dream really only has 1 single season in which his production is on par with Duncan's best. If you want to average out Dreams best 6 year stretch you get this;

Usage/O-RTG : 29.0% / 110 ORTG / 69.0 WS


Duncan a notch ahead. He was on better teams but even if we isolate the years they were both in comparable situations, Duncan still won and produced more individually.
which years did you choose for Hakeem?

i really like hakeem. one of my favorite players ever along with Bird and Kobe. but when you run the numbers he just isn't up there with Duncan and Shaq. a bit confusing really. I think I put Hakeem in the grouping with Kobe and Bird. his advanced line is mortal enough for Bird and Kobe to challenge. when you run the numbers against Shaq and Duncan he's just not on par.


Duncan faced some heavy competition too, only he did so in a tougher defensive era for bigmen.

Im just wondering what year you think the eras begin to differentiate.
thats the big question. arguably also a big question when we start comparing Dirk/KG to Malone/Barkley in 8-10 threads.

jerellh528
07-06-2014, 05:55 PM
its easier to do it for players today. we can look at numbers like opponent fg% at the rim. but those figures aren't available for the classic players. we could talk win-shares, but its connected to team defensive success (i don't mind talking about bigs here since they are the anchor of those defenses). Other than some of the newer figures it is mostly eye test for me personally in regards to defense. its easier to split gauging individual defensive play from the boarder scope of statistics in general. i also think defensive teams are a decent place to start, despite many famous players getting in on name value towards the end of their careers.


that would make sense.


id be inclined to put him lower, but really he has the argument with or without the most recent championship.

Duncans is probably 02-07, Hakeems is probably '89-95? Hakeem is hard to define in these terms. even if we want to call 89-95 his run, he was a bit mortal in '92. looking at the numbers he missed 26 games in 1991 and wasn't an all-star. from that season forward his defensive win-shares figures level out. that split that you've mentioned regarding Hakeem- probably starts in '92 right?


my mistake.


which years did you choose for Hakeem?

i really like hakeem. one of my favorite players ever along with Bird and Kobe. but when you run the numbers he just isn't up there with Duncan and Shaq. a bit confusing really. I think I put Hakeem in the grouping with Kobe and Bird. his advanced line is mortal enough for Bird and Kobe to challenge. when you run the numbers against Shaq and Duncan he's just not on par.


thats the big question. arguably also a big question when we start comparing Dirk/KG to Malone/Barkley in 8-10 threads.

When you say Kobe's not on par with Duncan, I'm curious at what numbers you're using. Not trying to argue I would just like to know.

YAALREADYKNO
07-06-2014, 06:45 PM
this is kobe and put dirk in the poll

amos1er
07-06-2014, 08:35 PM
Dud you can`t be serious man? You shouldn`t have a vote in this poll at all

Care to explain why I should rank him higher and who I should bump to move him up...

SLY WILLIAMS
07-06-2014, 09:00 PM
Larry Legend continues as by far the most underrated played on PSD. Makes me realize few people on this board saw him before his back injury.

todu82
07-06-2014, 09:48 PM
Bill Russell.

Hawkeye15
07-06-2014, 11:28 PM
Duncan just a hair over Dream for this spot.

Hawkeye15
07-06-2014, 11:30 PM
Larry Legend continues as by far the most underrated played on PSD. Makes me realize few people on this board saw him before his back injury.

I watched him. His lack of longevity kills him, as does the fact that if you have followed the game over time, you understand he never played against the rangy, athletic freak defenders that came after him at his position. Bird is top 10 all time for me, but not getting my vote for a little bit. I have him 2nd best at his position at this point.

Hawkeye15
07-06-2014, 11:31 PM
When you say Kobe's not on par with Duncan, I'm curious at what numbers you're using. Not trying to argue I would just like to know.

defensive impact and playoff numbers are the direct split between the two's nearly identical career. I will continue to pound home that a 2-way big has more impact than a wing, outside of Jordan/Magic, and now LeBron. Kobe would be 4th on that list, but outside that, bigs litter my top 10 list.

amos1er
07-07-2014, 03:45 AM
defensive impact and playoff numbers are the direct split between the two's nearly identical career. I will continue to pound home that a 2-way big has more impact than a wing, outside of Jordan/Magic, and now LeBron. Kobe would be 4th on that list, but outside that, bigs litter my top 10 list.

I agree with everything you said pretty much except for that part about Lebron... I just have to see more from him before I allow him into my top ten. Also, many on here nock Magic for his non 2-way dominance... Mainly on the defensive end of course. I however maintain that his team impact overall was so great that it really didn't matter that he was lacking on the defensive end. How much can you really expect from a guy playing out of position anyways...

amos1er
07-07-2014, 03:46 AM
Bill Russell.

No and no.

amos1er
07-07-2014, 03:48 AM
I watched him. His lack of longevity kills him, as does the fact that if you have followed the game over time, you understand he never played against the rangy, athletic freak defenders that came after him at his position. Bird is top 10 all time for me, but not getting my vote for a little bit. I have him 2nd best at his position at this point.

With that said, I don't see how you can have Lebron in your top ten at this present moment. Not saying he won't be someday, but isn't this a bit premature.

amos1er
07-07-2014, 03:53 AM
i went russell.. him and duncan should be the next 2 but i think the guy with the most rings deserves some consideration to the #6 spot

Being lucky enough to be gifted onto great teams against weaker competition throughout your career is not considered team impact in my book. It's considered having your legacy impacted by your great teams and lesser competition. A plethora of big men could have won in Russell's shoes. I can't reward a guy who would not even be the best big man in todays NBA.

SLY WILLIAMS
07-07-2014, 10:58 AM
I watched him. His lack of longevity kills him, as does the fact that if you have followed the game over time, you understand he never played against the rangy, athletic freak defenders that came after him at his position. Bird is top 10 all time for me, but not getting my vote for a little bit. I have him 2nd best at his position at this point.

Bird played in a era with some of the best SF and PF in history yet he was a top MVP candidate from day 1 as a rookie. That is a pretty random qualification. Teams used to try to defend Bird not just 1 player. He went against guys like Rodman (Great Defender), Bobby Jones (Great Defender), Pippen, Barkley, Worthy, Dominque, Dr. J, Malone, etc at forward and then once he got by them he had to deal with guys like Kareem, Laimbeer, Moses, Ewing, Gilmore, Hakeem, etc.

If guys like Jordan, Magic, Barkley, etc were choosing a team Bird would probably be the first or second name out of their mouths. 9 years in a row starting as a rookie he was top 4 in MVP voting. 7 years in a row he was top 2 in MVP voting. 10 years in a row he was all NBA First Team starting as a rookie.

MVP Award Shares
1979-80 NBA 0.068 (4) (Rookie year led poor team before Parrish/Mchale to 61 wins)
1980-81 NBA 0.613 (2)
1981-82 NBA 0.661 (2)
1982-83 NBA 0.485 (2)
1983-84 NBA 0.858 (1)
1984-85 NBA 0.978 (1)
1985-86 NBA 0.981 (1)
1986-87 NBA 0.357 (3)
1987-88 NBA 0.659 (2)
1989-90 NBA 0.005 (10)
1990-91 NBA 0.026 (9)
1991-92 NBA 0.002 (14)
Career 5.693 (4)

Honors
1977-78 NCAA AP All-America (1st)
1978-79 NCAA AP All-America (1st)
1979-80 NBA All-NBA (1st) (All NBA 1st team as a rookie)
1979-80 NBA All-Rookie (1st)
1980-81 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1981-82 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
1981-82 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1982-83 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
1982-83 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1983-84 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
1983-84 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1984-85 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1985-86 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1986-87 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1987-88 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1989-90 NBA All-NBA (2nd)

ManRam
07-07-2014, 12:12 PM
Thanks for getting this up, Bruno. My post probably got lost in the last thread but I was on vacation. I'll get #7 up tomorrow or Wednesday. I might give the next few a little extra time per requests.

Purch
07-07-2014, 01:04 PM
Bird or Duncan or Hakeem

KnicksorBust
07-07-2014, 04:43 PM
Relieved Duncan is winning here. His 2-way play and success should have put him top 5 but I suppose my list won't be perfect here. Kobe vs. Bird is next and Kobe's longevity should win out.

FlashBolt
07-07-2014, 04:45 PM
By how the voting is going, I'm going to predict the next four are: Duncan, Hakeem, Bird, James, Kobe.

Ebbs
07-07-2014, 05:24 PM
Next should be Bird, then LeBron/Hakeem, then Kobe.

JordansBulls
07-07-2014, 05:51 PM
Duncan faced some heavy competition too, only he did so in a tougher defensive era for bigmen.

Im just wondering what year you think the eras begin to differentiate.

1999

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-07-2014, 06:35 PM
Can we stop seeing LeBron votes until the latter end? There is no way you can make an argument of LeBron over Duncan, Hakeem, or Kobe.

This is psd, where logic comes to die

Hawkeye15
07-07-2014, 07:26 PM
I agree with everything you said pretty much except for that part about Lebron... I just have to see more from him before I allow him into my top ten. Also, many on here nock Magic for his non 2-way dominance... Mainly on the defensive end of course. I however maintain that his team impact overall was so great that it really didn't matter that he was lacking on the defensive end. How much can you really expect from a guy playing out of position anyways...

yeah, I agree, I just already have him established in the top 8ish area, but no way he climbs into that holy trinity unless he kills it for a while longer. With success to boot.

Hawkeye15
07-07-2014, 07:29 PM
With that said, I don't see how you can have Lebron in your top ten at this present moment. Not saying he won't be someday, but isn't this a bit premature.

Bird came into the league at 23, and had 6 seasons that you could compare individually to LeBron's play over the past 8 years and counting is why. Factor in LeBron being a beast defender for much of his career, he has passed him for me now. But hell, Kobe passed Bird for me a while back as well, I just think Bird coming in late, and fading early, hurts him so bad.

Hawkeye15
07-07-2014, 07:31 PM
Bird played in a era with some of the best SF and PF in history yet he was a top MVP candidate from day 1 as a rookie. That is a pretty random qualification. Teams used to try to defend Bird not just 1 player. He went against guys like Rodman (Great Defender), Bobby Jones (Great Defender), Pippen, Barkley, Worthy, Dominque, Dr. J, Malone, etc at forward and then once he got by them he had to deal with guys like Kareem, Laimbeer, Moses, Ewing, Gilmore, Hakeem, etc.

If guys like Jordan, Magic, Barkley, etc were choosing a team Bird would probably be the first or second name out of their mouths. 9 years in a row starting as a rookie he was top 4 in MVP voting. 7 years in a row he was top 2 in MVP voting. 10 years in a row he was all NBA First Team starting as a rookie.

MVP Award Shares
1979-80 NBA 0.068 (4) (Rookie year led poor team before Parrish/Mchale to 61 wins)
1980-81 NBA 0.613 (2)
1981-82 NBA 0.661 (2)
1982-83 NBA 0.485 (2)
1983-84 NBA 0.858 (1)
1984-85 NBA 0.978 (1)
1985-86 NBA 0.981 (1)
1986-87 NBA 0.357 (3)
1987-88 NBA 0.659 (2)
1989-90 NBA 0.005 (10)
1990-91 NBA 0.026 (9)
1991-92 NBA 0.002 (14)
Career 5.693 (4)

Honors
1977-78 NCAA AP All-America (1st)
1978-79 NCAA AP All-America (1st)
1979-80 NBA All-NBA (1st) (All NBA 1st team as a rookie)
1979-80 NBA All-Rookie (1st)
1980-81 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1981-82 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
1981-82 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1982-83 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
1982-83 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1983-84 NBA All-Defensive (2nd)
1983-84 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1984-85 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1985-86 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1986-87 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1987-88 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1989-90 NBA All-NBA (2nd)

I know all the accolades. I am saying, that in my opinion (it's widely recognized as well), Bird played in the free flowing 80's where points were easy to come by, you didn't face freakish athletic defenders on the wings, and his longevity kills him. GREAT peak, just didn't last long enough, and I think he prospered from his era regarding his position.

alexander_37
07-07-2014, 11:38 PM
Duncan has become overrated I have him 8th at best. If Hakeem loses to Bird next round I am probably ok with it. So it's Hakeem or Bird IMO.

Bruno
07-07-2014, 11:46 PM
Duncan has become overrated I have him 8th at best. If Hakeem loses to Bird next round I am probably ok with it. So it's Hakeem or Bird IMO.

and kobe. he's going to get a lot of votes.

jerellh528
07-08-2014, 12:05 AM
and kobe. he's going to get a lot of votes.

No way, he's hated on psd. Lebron shouldn't be getting votes over him at all, Duncan isn't 26 votes to 9 ahead of him either, if at all, but to each their own on that one.

Bruno
07-08-2014, 12:09 AM
No way, he's hated on psd. Lebron shouldn't be getting votes over him at all, Duncan isn't 26 votes to 9 ahead of him either, if at all, but to each their own on that one.

i might get a little saucy and take kobe over dream. that is, if i can convince myself that i'm not being a hypocrite on my two-way defender value system. kobe is an all-time great wing defender and Hakeem was only dominant defensively for half his career. hakeem and russell are the only top ten GOATs anchors who don't have an advanced statistical edge over kobe.

Shlumpledink
07-08-2014, 02:04 AM
Duncan continues to be overrated.

amos1er
07-08-2014, 04:57 AM
Duncan continues to be overrated.

Duncan is one of the most accomplished players in NBA history. Who would you put over him for the six spot at this point...

amos1er
07-08-2014, 04:59 AM
I'm voting Kobe at seven. I used to have Kobe at the six spot, but after this season, it's sad for me to say, but Duncan has temporarily overtaken him at the moment. There is still time however, and now that Kobe is back to 100% all bets are off again. Ready for the next poll... Let's do this...

5ass
07-08-2014, 05:13 AM
I'm voting Kobe at seven. I used to have Kobe at the six spot, but after this season, it's sad for me to say, but Duncan has temporarily overtaken him at the moment. There is still time however, and now that Kobe is back to 100% all bets are off again. Ready for the next poll... Let's do this...

So you've already made the fake accounts?? ;)

amos1er
07-08-2014, 05:15 AM
yeah, I agree, I just already have him established in the top 8ish area, but no way he climbs into that holy trinity unless he kills it for a while longer. With success to boot.

Lebron desperately needs to go to back to Cleveland and win a ring there IMO... Then he will cement a place in the top ten in my book as well as the other many naysayers around the NBA. I have seen enough regular season exploits out of him at this point... He needs to prove he can win it without a Big Three... I would also like to see some more leadership from him as well.

I have him hovering just above the top ten and he would likely get in at the 10 spot with some more longevity at a high level as you say, but to break in to the "holly trinity" (I assume you mean MJ, KAJ, and Wilt) he will need to prove the skeptics wrong and win multiple titles on a more level playing field as well. If he were to go to Cleveland and wins say... 4 more rings, I would not argue against him being in the "holly trinity"... Though I view Magic as a part of that as well. More like a Mount Rushmore IMO. I would be annoyed at the luck Cleveland had to produce to get this all to transpire sure, but I would not be able to deny his overall greatness from a legacy standpoint anymore.

I'm truly curious to see if he can pull it off. It's kind of like when people were doubting Kobe before he proved he didn't need Shaq to be a winner. Many people considered Kobe just outside the top ten before he finally won one on his own... Same will go with Lebron I assume.

amos1er
07-08-2014, 05:17 AM
So you've already made the fake accounts?? ;)

Don't need to, the overall collective logic will be enough in this case. I don't really see a scenario where Kobe doesn't get the seven spot. Most of the logical posters on this site have already made that clear from what I am reading. At most I can see him slipping down to eight... No further.

amos1er
07-08-2014, 05:24 AM
Bird came into the league at 23, and had 6 seasons that you could compare individually to LeBron's play over the past 8 years and counting is why. Factor in LeBron being a beast defender for much of his career, he has passed him for me now. But hell, Kobe passed Bird for me a while back as well, I just think Bird coming in late, and fading early, hurts him so bad.

I see it a bit differently... I have Kobe only slightly above Bird with Lebron still a few paces behind. Bird had a better overall impact on not only his team, but the game of basketball IMO than did Lebron. To me, Bird was the better offensive player, leader, and winner. Lebron was the better defender for sure, but those intangibles and one less ring mean a lot to me. I only considered Kobe above Bird after he won his fifth ring... Though I would say that Lebron would only need four to pass him.

kdspurman
07-08-2014, 08:05 AM
Duncan has become overrated I have him 8th at best. If Hakeem loses to Bird next round I am probably ok with it. So it's Hakeem or Bird IMO.


Duncan continues to be overrated.

Duncan is suddenly overrated? Curious as to why you think that.

alexander_37
07-08-2014, 10:01 AM
Duncan is suddenly overrated? Curious as to why you think that.
when people talk about him they list mostly team accomplishments. That means nothing in this context.

kdspurman
07-08-2014, 10:12 AM
when people talk about him they list mostly team accomplishments. That means nothing in this context.

I don't agree with that. Most people I have seen discuss it talk more about the way he has consistently been great and how his level of play always excelled in the post season. And the fact that from the moment he came into the league he was a dominant 2-way player.

He has plenty of personal accolades to go along with the team accomplishments.

alexander_37
07-08-2014, 10:14 AM
I don't agree with that. Most people I have seen discuss it talk more about the way he has consistently been great and how his level of play always excelled in the post season. And the fact that from the moment he came into the league he was a dominant 2-way player.

He has plenty of personal accolades to go along with the team accomplishments.
I didnt say he doesn't, just not as many as other guys.

YAALREADYKNO
07-08-2014, 10:24 AM
I didnt say he doesn't, just not as many as other guys.


he's actually one of the most accomplished if you're talking about just accolades
3x finals mvp
5x nba champion
2x league mvp
14x allstar
8x nba all defensive 1st team
6x nba all defensive 2nd team

kdspurman
07-08-2014, 10:39 AM
I didnt say he doesn't, just not as many as other guys.

You can't just factor in personal accolades or team accomplishments. It is a combination of things.