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ILLUSIONIST^248
07-02-2014, 02:44 PM
Have 10 championships, 3 runner ups, and 2 non finals appearances in 15 straight years. I don't know about you guys, but I find this to be absolutely ****ing nuts. There is no question both of these guys are top 7 all time. Talk about domination.

Aust
07-02-2014, 02:47 PM
*they were on teams that did that

Hawkeye15
07-02-2014, 02:48 PM
Duncan is top 7 ever, Kobe not that far behind.

Teams win championships btw, basketball isn't golf or tennis.

bucketss
07-02-2014, 02:48 PM
*they were on teams that did that

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-02-2014, 02:49 PM
Duncan is top 7 ever, Kobe not that far behind.

Teams win championships btw, basketball isn't golf or tennis.

Still 10/3/2 in 15 years in out of this world

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-02-2014, 02:49 PM
*they were on teams that did that

Leaders or co lead.

ManRam
07-02-2014, 02:50 PM
Yes. We all know. Very good players on very good teams.

Hawkeye15
07-02-2014, 02:51 PM
Still 10/3/2 in 15 years in out of this world

well, how many teams have won the championship in the last 34 years? The NBA is extremely top heavy, and these two guys enjoyed their entire careers on one of those fortunate teams.

Meaning, let them be drafted by the Bucks, or the Wolves. You wouldn't be nearly as impressed with their team accomplishments....

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-02-2014, 02:55 PM
Still 10/3/2 in 15 years in out of this world

well, how many teams have won the championship in the last 34 years? The NBA is extremely top heavy, and these two guys enjoyed their entire careers on one of those fortunate teams.

Meaning, let them be drafted by the Bucks, or the Wolves. You wouldn't be nearly as impressed with their team accomplishments....

Kobe has had plenty of below **** teams. No pair of individuals have had such domination, outside of bill. That includes magic and bird.

LAKobeBryant
07-02-2014, 02:56 PM
isn't there still a active kobe/duncan thread?

Hawkeye15
07-02-2014, 03:04 PM
Kobe has had plenty of below **** teams. No pair of individuals have had such domination, outside of bill. That includes magic and bird.

Kobe had contender help over half his career dude. Don't act like Kobe was dragging terrible rosters into the western conference playoffs every year, please.

Individual domination? You have never even proven the ability to define that. You fall back on team success every time the argument doesn't go your way.

XpLiCiTT
07-02-2014, 03:08 PM
Kobe has had plenty of below **** teams. No pair of individuals have had such domination, outside of bill. That includes magic and bird.

Hop off of Kobes dick dude. You are literally in every thread just being Anti-Lebron and drooling over Kobes nut sack. We get it, you love Kobe and want to have his children.

The only "****" teams you can say Kobe had were for 3 years after Shaq left. And he couldn't even get out of the first round, and even missed the playoffs one of those years. Clear domination.

bucketss
07-02-2014, 03:10 PM
Kobe has had plenty of below **** teams. No pair of individuals have had such domination, outside of bill. That includes magic and bird.

u mean for 3 years after he destroyed the dynasty with shaq?

smith&wesson
07-02-2014, 03:16 PM
i have a better question. . If kobe and duncan played their entire careers together, would they have 6,7,8 + rings ? I think so.

smith&wesson
07-02-2014, 03:18 PM
u mean for 3 years after he destroyed the dynasty with shaq?

Phill has came out and said it wasnt kobe's fault, and that the fall out between kobe and shaq were due to shaqs goofy personality and kobes drive and will to win...

thats why they always bumped heads. Kobe wanted shaq to be more serious and dedicated... so really it was shaq that screwed it up by being a clown in practice and around the team rather than staying focused and dedicated like kobe always has been and is.

MinnesotaFtw
07-02-2014, 03:37 PM
Only player to drag terrible teams into the playoffs was Allen Iverson and Lebron James.

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-02-2014, 03:38 PM
Kobe has had plenty of below **** teams. No pair of individuals have had such domination, outside of bill. That includes magic and bird.

Hop off of Kobes dick dude. You are literally in every thread just being Anti-Lebron and drooling over Kobes nut sack. We get it, you love Kobe and want to have his children.

The only "****" teams you can say Kobe had were for 3 years after Shaq left. And he never got out of the first round, and even missed the playoffs one of those years. Clear domination.

Keep crying. This thread is about both Kobe and Duncans success. If you don't want to hear about it gtfo of the thread.

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-02-2014, 03:39 PM
Only player to drag terrible teams into the playoffs was Allen Iverson and Lebron James.
Kobe did it twice and almost beat one of the best teams of the decade by himself. He's plays in the west I might add.

XpLiCiTT
07-02-2014, 03:46 PM
Keep crying. This thread is about both Kobe and Duncans success. If you don't want to hear about it gtfo of the thread.

I'm crying? Thats news to me. How about you respond to what I said. You run every time you know you're wrong, which is quite often.

Hawkeye15
07-02-2014, 03:48 PM
Only player to drag terrible teams into the playoffs was Allen Iverson and Lebron James.

Iverson's team wasn't that bad. They would have struggled to score enough to be a top 4 seed in the east, but their defense was awesome, and would have won them enough games to make the playoffs for sure, especially in the east.

rhd420
07-02-2014, 03:53 PM
Kobe had contender help over half his career dude. Don't act like Kobe was dragging terrible rosters into the western conference playoffs every year, please.

Individual domination? You have never even proven the ability to define that. You fall back on team success every time the argument doesn't go your way.

Individual domination in a team game?
In comparison, if you were a NBA player and had to make a decision in your career - who would you want to play - hands down Duncan, has a coach that WANTS to coach him, has players like Parker and Manu who want to remain on a team with him ...

Let's just say this, imagine how many titles Kobe would have IF Shaq, Ariza, Fisher (who left and came back) and of course Phil Jackson would have stayed.

Sometimes talent is over hyped vs "team game" and leadership and sacrifice.
Both careers are great but in terms of longevity and sacrifice, it's clear who wins that battle ...

Tony_Starks
07-02-2014, 03:55 PM
Definitely two of the top 10 greatest. Add to that they're both just a year removed from 1st team all NBA and "old man" Duncan just polished off a super team for what should've been the second straight year.......we'll never see this stuff again!

-Kobe24-TJ19-
07-02-2014, 03:58 PM
u mean for 3 years after he destroyed the dynasty with shaq?

Shaq's lazy *** had to go

rhd420
07-02-2014, 04:02 PM
Shaq's lazy *** had to go

... and then won another title with Wade the next year with Miami?

Sly Guy
07-02-2014, 04:02 PM
*they were on teams that did that

*they were on teams that did that

Hawkeye15
07-02-2014, 04:04 PM
Individual domination in a team game?
In comparison, if you were a NBA player and had to make a decision in your career - who would you want to play - hands down Duncan, has a coach that WANTS to coach him, has players like Parker and Manu who want to remain on a team with him ...

Let's just say this, imagine how many titles Kobe would have IF Shaq, Ariza, Fisher (who left and came back) and of course Phil Jackson would have stayed.

Sometimes talent is over hyped vs "team game" and leadership and sacrifice.
Both careers are great but in terms of longevity and sacrifice, it's clear who wins that battle ...

well, I was responding directly to a poster whose history debating these subjects defines the word "bias".

Individual domination can be defined and evidence produced. What you are talking about, which is chemistry sort of, or being a teammate, is harder to define, but can still be defined because of a players coaches, teammates, and in the media.

lakerboy
07-02-2014, 04:05 PM
Kobe and Duncan went to the finals 13 times in the last 15 years.

#INSANE

Hawkeye15
07-02-2014, 04:06 PM
Shaq's lazy *** had to go

the same Shaq who then won a title with Wade?

The whole issue in LA was a drama match between Kobe/Shaq. Nobody is at more fault than the other. The Lakers simply picked the younger star, giving them more time to try and build a contender again.

Hawkeye15
07-02-2014, 04:07 PM
Kobe and Duncan went to the finals 13 times in the last 15 years.

#INSANE

it really is. But like I stated, over the past 34 years, how many teams have win it all? While there are no dynasties over that period outside the Bulls, and perhaps the Lakers for 3 years, it goes to show how top heavy the league really is.

Tony_Starks
07-02-2014, 04:11 PM
Iverson's team wasn't that bad. They would have struggled to score enough to be a top 4 seed in the east, but their defense was awesome, and would have won them enough games to make the playoffs for sure, especially in the east.

By that logic Lebrons Cavs weren't that bad either then. They were consistently ranked among the best, if not the best, defense during Mike Browns tenure.

Can't have it both ways.....

MinnesotaFtw
07-02-2014, 04:12 PM
Only player to drag terrible teams into the playoffs was Allen Iverson and Lebron James.

Iverson's team wasn't that bad. They would have struggled to score enough to be a top 4 seed in the east, but their defense was awesome, and would have won them enough games to make the playoffs for sure, especially in the east.

He had really no scoring help. Mckee and snow played some good defense but man they were *** on the defensive end lol. And yeah kobe took a bad team once or twice

rhd420
07-02-2014, 04:13 PM
well, I was responding directly to a poster whose history debating these subjects defines the word "bias".

Individual domination can be defined and evidence produced. What you are talking about, which is chemistry sort of, or being a teammate, is harder to define, but can still be defined because of a players coaches, teammates, and in the media.

statistically Kobe is better ... but in terms of being a team mate, do you really want to debate Kobe being a team mate and making other players around him better?

It's not the media that created that storm, it's fact - PJ left TWICE, Shaq while his departure was documented, Kobe did little to nothing to try to keep him, Fisher - Ariza, etc. Not to say Kobe has nothing to do with the front office and decision - really? He doesn't right - not one little bit.
Duncan on the other had - you know the story

Not saying the Lakers didn't make the right selection at the time BUT then again would we be saying that if Pau Gasol and Phil Jackson (along with Kobe) didn't win another title?

lakerboy
07-02-2014, 04:14 PM
it really is. But like I stated, over the past 34 years, how many teams have win it all? While there are no dynasties over that period outside the Bulls, and perhaps the Lakers for 3 years, it goes to show how top heavy the league really is.

There are some ridiculous stats out there.

For example,

In the 20 years from 1991-2010, Phil Jackson went to the NBA finals 13/20 times.
Phil and Popovich went 17/20 times combined.


Also:

Kobe Bryant has been to the finals 7 times in the past 15 years. (2000-2014). This may just be blabber to most people, but that stat is insane. It is incredibly hard to get into the NBA finals.


These guys -- Phil, Pop, Kobe and Duncan -- are one of the greatest we've seen EVER.

The league since 2000 is so much better than it was before in my opinion, and if anything, Lebron James showed the past four years how hard it is to win a championship in the NBA. People really never appreciated how hard and how beautiful Spurs and Lakers basketball have been the past 15 years.

ATX
07-02-2014, 04:15 PM
A Kobe circle jerk thread started by Illusionist. Awesome! This will go over well.

XpLiCiTT
07-02-2014, 04:21 PM
statistically Kobe is better

Is scoring the only thing you base your stats off of?

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-02-2014, 04:31 PM
A Kobe circle jerk thread started by Illusionist. Awesome! This will go over well.

Kobe and Duncan. Learn to read and get out

Bostonjorge
07-02-2014, 04:47 PM
Kobe and Duncan resumes are both impressive. They both can catch KAJ in certain areas where KAJ had his name cemented for almost 30 years now. I like Duncan and kobe both passing KAJ in the all time list when they hang it up.

Darc Mind
07-02-2014, 04:51 PM
A Kobe circle jerk thread started by Illusionist. Awesome! This will go over well.

Kobe and Duncan. Learn to read and get out

Yeah ATX! Its a Kobe AND Duncan circle jerk. Get it right! Dont let it happen again.

Bostonjorge
07-02-2014, 04:56 PM
Hop off of Kobes dick dude. You are literally in every thread just being Anti-Lebron and drooling over Kobes nut sack. We get it, you love Kobe and want to have his children.

The only "****" teams you can say Kobe had were for 3 years after Shaq left. And he couldn't even get out of the first round, and even missed the playoffs one of those years. Clear domination.
Duncan lost in the first rd 3 times more then kobe. Duncan had the higher seed every time when they lost. A 8th seed and 6th seed beat the spurs. O and u can't ever say Duncan didn't have a great team around him.

Chronz
07-02-2014, 04:59 PM
Duncan lost in the first rd 3 times more then kobe. Duncan had the higher seed every time when they lost. A 8th seed and 6th seed beat the spurs. O and u can't ever say Duncan didn't have a great team around him.

Just curious, do we count missing the playoffs entirely as not losing in the first round?

Bostonjorge
07-02-2014, 05:03 PM
Just curious, do we count missing the playoffs entirely as not losing in the first round?

There's a difference.

numba1CHANGsta
07-02-2014, 05:10 PM
Top 5, top 7, top 10 doesnt matter there will always be a debate, but im sure all of us true basketball fans can agree on this: TD best PF of all-time and KB 2nd best SG of all-time

YAALREADYKNO
07-02-2014, 05:10 PM
players of this generation

kobe
duncan


dirk

naps
07-02-2014, 05:11 PM
What's the point? They are two all-time greats who happened to play on two of the best teams of last 15 years. I don't understand the point of this thread. And who's to say they are both top 7 just because of their teams dominated past 15 years? How about if I say "Bill Russell won 11 championships in 13 years...GOAT!" How would you refute that if you stay consistent with your logic here?

naps
07-02-2014, 05:14 PM
Kobe and Duncan resumes are both impressive. They both can catch KAJ in certain areas where KAJ had his name cemented for almost 30 years now. I like Duncan and kobe both passing KAJ in the all time list when they hang it up.

Hahaha...Do you really know KAJ's resume? He is the only one by far who can make it a debate with Michael Jordan when it comes to the greatest player of all-time.

kdspurman
07-02-2014, 05:15 PM
Just curious, do we count missing the playoffs entirely as not losing in the first round?

I was thinking the same exact thing lol. I guess not

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-02-2014, 05:22 PM
What's the point? They are two all-time greats who happened to play on two of the best teams of last 15 years. I don't understand the point of this thread. And who's to say they are both top 7 just because of their teams dominated past 15 years? How about if I say "Bill Russell won 11 championships in 13 years...GOAT!" How would you refute that if you stay consistent with your logic here?

Thanks for providing us with the worst post in the thread. Bill played on stacked teams in a pathetic era.

Tony_Starks
07-02-2014, 05:47 PM
I love how people just casually brush it off with "yeah they just so happened to play on great teams." The Big 4 in Boston was pretty great, how many rings did they get? The Chauncey,Rip, Sheed, Big Ben team was stacked. How many rings they get? How many rings has this new super team amassed?

Being on a great team is one thing but it takes truly great players to consistently sustain championships.

XpLiCiTT
07-02-2014, 05:48 PM
Duncan lost in the first rd 3 times more then kobe. Duncan had the higher seed every time when they lost. A 8th seed and 6th seed beat the spurs. O and u can't ever say Duncan didn't have a great team around him.

Duncan hasn't missed the playoffs once in his ENTIRE career. And I struggle to comprehend your butchery of the English language, but are you trying to say Duncan has lost in the first round 3 times more than Kobe? Because thats just flat out not true.

Hawkeye15
07-02-2014, 05:56 PM
By that logic Lebrons Cavs weren't that bad either then. They were consistently ranked among the best, if not the best, defense during Mike Browns tenure.

Can't have it both ways.....

sure I can have it both ways. Iverson isn't on the same planet as a player. The Cavs, in there back to back 60 win seasons, had the 3rd, and 7th ranked defenses. And LeBron was one of the best defenders in the league. Iverson was not. I truly don't believe I have ever seen a single player get that many wins out of such bad talent.

Simply put, Iverson is not on the level of LeBron James, Tim Duncan, or Kobe Bryant for this threads purpose. So your attempted analogy doesn't work. Imagine how many more wins those Sixers teams have with LeBron instead of AI....

Hawkeye15
07-02-2014, 05:59 PM
He had really no scoring help. Mckee and snow played some good defense but man they were *** on the defensive end lol. And yeah kobe took a bad team once or twice

uh, what? Snow covered the best of the PG/SG at all times to give AI a break on that end, and because he was not near the defender. McKee was an excellent defender. Ever heard of Dikembe Mutombo? How about George Lynch, Theo Ratliff, or Raja Bell?

Hawkeye15
07-02-2014, 06:00 PM
statistically Kobe is better ... but in terms of being a team mate, do you really want to debate Kobe being a team mate and making other players around him better?

It's not the media that created that storm, it's fact - PJ left TWICE, Shaq while his departure was documented, Kobe did little to nothing to try to keep him, Fisher - Ariza, etc. Not to say Kobe has nothing to do with the front office and decision - really? He doesn't right - not one little bit.
Duncan on the other had - you know the story

Not saying the Lakers didn't make the right selection at the time BUT then again would we be saying that if Pau Gasol and Phil Jackson (along with Kobe) didn't win another title?

how is Kobe statistically better than Duncan?

Yes, the whole situation was an episode of 90210, I get that haha.

Hawkeye15
07-02-2014, 06:01 PM
Top 5, top 7, top 10 doesnt matter there will always be a debate, but im sure all of us true basketball fans can agree on this: TD best PF of all-time and KB 2nd best SG of all-time

yep

Hawkeye15
07-02-2014, 06:02 PM
I love how people just casually brush it off with "yeah they just so happened to play on great teams." The Big 4 in Boston was pretty great, how many rings did they get? The Chauncey,Rip, Sheed, Big Ben team was stacked. How many rings they get? How many rings has this new super team amassed?

Being on a great team is one thing but it takes truly great players to consistently sustain championships.

teams, but yes. All a player can hope for when he enters his professional sports career is that he is put on a team/situation that gives him the most opportunities to win titles. Kobe and Duncan are the leaders of this fortune during their careers.

akia83
07-02-2014, 06:10 PM
Kobe and Duncan went to the finals 13 times in the last 15 years.

#INSANE
Actually it would have more fair to say "during the last 16 years" or at least "during the last 16 finals" since they missed 3 of them during the last 15 years :)

Miami-Dallas 2006 and 2011
Miami-OKC 2012

Miami, LAL and SA were in the last 16 finals (18 times over 16 actually :) )

XpLiCiTT
07-02-2014, 06:14 PM
Being on a great team is one thing but it takes truly great players to consistently sustain championships.

No, you have it backwards. Being a great player is one thing, but it takes truly great TEAMS to consistently sustain championships.

MinnesotaFtw
07-02-2014, 06:24 PM
He had really no scoring help. Mckee and snow played some good defense but man they were *** on the defensive end lol. And yeah kobe took a bad team once or twice

uh, what? Snow covered the best of the PG/SG at all times to give AI a break on that end, and because he was not near the defender. McKee was an excellent defender. Ever heard of Dikembe Mutombo? How about George Lynch, Theo Ratliff, or Raja Bell? I meant there offensive games. It's obvious from my post that's what I meant. Also, Iverson was a good defender. He led the league in steals a lot of times. Let's not forget that. Clearly no LBJ but not a slouch.

Chronz
07-02-2014, 06:29 PM
There's a difference.

I agree. All else being equal, one is more of an accomplishment than the other.

Jamiecballer
07-02-2014, 06:31 PM
Teams

Hawkeye15
07-02-2014, 06:33 PM
I meant there offensive games. It's obvious from my post that's what I meant. Also, Iverson was a good defender. He led the league in steals a lot of times. Let's not forget that. Clearly no LBJ but not a slouch.

I said, their offense would struggle to score, but their defense would have gotten them into the playoffs easily.

Iverson was not a very good defender. Steals mean nothing really, not when you are spending half the defensive possession gambling to get one. The reason Snow/McKee and company were so good next to him defensively is because it afforded Larry Brown the ability to always put Iverson on the weaker offensive threat at either the PG, or SG position. Ideally, Iverson was hidden on that side of the ball for two reasons: one, he wasn't a very good man to man defender, and two, they needed 41 minutes of him shouldering the scoring load.

I do wonder if Iverson would have been a better defender had he not had so much scoring responsibility, but w we only know what he actually was.

XpLiCiTT
07-02-2014, 06:38 PM
uh, what? Snow covered the best of the PG/SG at all times to give AI a break on that end, and because he was not near the defender. McKee was an excellent defender. Ever heard of Dikembe Mutombo? How about George Lynch, Theo Ratliff, or Raja Bell?

Theo Ratliff was not on that team. He was a part of the Mutumbo trade. I am a die-hard Sixers and Iverson fan, the team was absolutely awful. Mutumbo was good, and McKie was very solid. But the team was awful, not as bad as LeBrons Cavs, but pretty damn bad.

Hawkeye15
07-02-2014, 06:41 PM
Theo Ratliff was not on that team. He was a part of the Mutumbo trade. I am a die-hard Sixers and Iverson fan, the team was absolutely awful. Mutumbo was good, and McKie was very solid. But the team was awful, not as bad as LeBrons Cavs, but pretty damn bad.

I am spanning some of the players over a few years, hence the overlap.

Their defense was good enough to secure a playoff spot in the east a few of those years. Hell, even with Iverson the offense was horrible for long stretches. Snow, Bell, McKie, Deke, Theo, Lynch, all good defenders. Larry Brown teams are good defensive clubs. While I don't think they would sniff a 2nd round ever if you simply removed AI, there were a few of those teams good enough to make the playoffs purely on defense. They would then get crushed round 1 obviously.

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-02-2014, 06:44 PM
:laugh: as expect all the Lebron fans come in here and pout and try and downplay how amazing this is.

Hawkeye15
07-02-2014, 06:48 PM
:laugh: as expect all the Lebron fans one in here and pout and try and downplay how amazing this is.

nobody is downplaying how amazing the Lakers and Spurs organizations have been for the past 20 years...

XpLiCiTT
07-02-2014, 06:49 PM
I am spanning some of the players over a few years, hence the overlap.

Their defense was good enough to secure a playoff spot in the east a few of those years. Hell, even with Iverson the offense was horrible for long stretches. Snow, Bell, McKie, Deke, Theo, Lynch, all good defenders. Larry Brown teams are good defensive clubs. While I don't think they would sniff a 2nd round ever if you simply removed AI, there were a few of those teams good enough to make the playoffs purely on defense. They would then get crushed round 1 obviously.

Without Iverson they were a borderline playoff team, even in the East. Like you said, wouldn't get out of the first round anyway. Wasn't the original argument LeBron and Iverson are the only players to drag awful teams to the finals? Because that is completely true. LeBrons Cavs, and Iversons Sixers are probably the 2 worst teams to ever make a finals appearance (outside of LBJ and AI).

XpLiCiTT
07-02-2014, 06:51 PM
:laugh: as expect all the Lebron fans one in here and pout and try and downplay how amazing this is.

You make it clear as night and day that you love Kobe and hate LeBron. It's hard to take anything you say serious considering how biased you clearly are.

Hawkeye15
07-02-2014, 06:53 PM
Without Iverson they were a borderline playoff team, even in the East. Like you said, wouldn't get out of the first round anyway. Wasn't the original argument LeBron and Iverson are the only players to drag awful teams to the finals? Because that is completely true. LeBrons Cavs, and Iversons Sixers are probably the 2 worst teams to ever make a finals appearance (outside of LBJ and AI).

It was the original argument. However, if you removed LeBron from those Cavs teams, I don't think they sniff the playoffs, even in the weaker east. They would would have had so many issues in every facet of the game, and had a coach who had no clue what he was doing.

Those may have been two of the weakest teams to see the finals, I agree.

ThuglifeJ
07-02-2014, 06:53 PM
Living legends

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-02-2014, 06:55 PM
:laugh: as expect all the Lebron fans one in here and pout and try and downplay how amazing this is.

nobody is downplaying how amazing the Lakers and Spurs organizations have been for the past 20 years...

Ya, Kobe and Duncan had nothing to do with it. Hawk just stop

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-02-2014, 06:56 PM
:laugh: as expect all the Lebron fans one in here and pout and try and downplay how amazing this is.

You make it clear as night and day that you love Kobe and hate LeBron. It's hard to take anything you say serious considering how biased you clearly are.

At least I'm honest of who I like and don't. You guys rather be phony.

rhd420
07-02-2014, 06:58 PM
You make it clear as night and day that you love Kobe and hate LeBron. It's hard to take anything you say serious considering how biased you clearly are.

the interesting part to the whole Duncan/Kobe debate or what it's turned out to be - simply put, which player has done more for their franchises and can we say "future"

No matter the stats the both players are compared to, in the end, Duncan not only kept his core group of players with him (and credit goes to the Spurs organization) but they have a nucleus that has Spliiter, Leonard and Mills - AND a young UCLA guy in Anderson they can groom. This is all with mentors that can have NOT taken so much money so they can keep the core together in Duncan/Manu/Parker and once they retire the Spurs don't have a bare cover

Can you say the same for Kobe and the Lakers organization - no matter what you did through his career, his next 2 season and post career, there is no back up plan. There is no nucleus to be had even with Randle. Can you say Kobe has left a mark on the team yes - and in the future as well and not necessarily on the positive end

Shlumpledink
07-02-2014, 06:58 PM
If they were on the same team they would each be in the discussion of top 3 or 4, because they would have 7 or 8 championships together, easily, and people like to equate team achievements to personal ability, so they would have roughly the same output with more accolades.


Kobe and Duncan are much more alike than Kobe/Shaq, they would co-exist for a lot longer and maybe be career Spurs/Lakers.

XpLiCiTT
07-02-2014, 07:01 PM
It was the original argument. However, if you removed LeBron from those Cavs teams, I don't think they sniff the playoffs, even in the weaker east. They would would have had so many issues in every facet of the game, and had a coach who had no clue what he was doing.

Those may have been two of the weakest teams to see the finals, I agree.

Yup I agree 100%. That Cavs team was a good amount worse than that Sixers team.

XpLiCiTT
07-02-2014, 07:03 PM
At least I'm honest of who I like and don't. You guys rather be phony.

I'm the biggest LeBron fan you will ever meet. Just because you like a player doesn't mean you have to say things that aren't close to true and make yourself look dumb.

Hawkeye15
07-02-2014, 07:05 PM
Ya, Kobe and Duncan had nothing to do with it. Hawk just stop

sure they do. A lot actually. But to act like they didn't play in very fortunate situations is ridiculous.

SirSkyHook
07-02-2014, 07:10 PM
:oldguy:

XpLiCiTT
07-02-2014, 07:12 PM
:oldguy:

What? :confused:

EDIT: NVM you edited your post. Good for you, because it made absolutely no sense.

SirSkyHook
07-02-2014, 07:13 PM
lol was bored lol

SirSkyHook
07-02-2014, 07:18 PM
response to all those its a team game people:

So in this Lebron era of basketball winning dosent matter only stats. It dosent mater how many championships you've led your team to because the 10 man off the bench deserves the same level of credit because its a team game........ :laugh:

Hold on there's more lol........

You can be seen as a team player... :laugh:.........:laugh:....... even though you head the belief that none of your teammates are ever good enough to share the court with you. From starter to stars to superstars, it's all there fault lmfao!!!!!

I Love This Game............................. :laugh:

Who does that? Who says things like that? Not Magic, Not Bird, Not Jordan, Not Shaq, and Not Kobe. None of these greats spits that crazy talk out, but Lebron James heads that belief, and his fans are form the body of it. Crazy world were in

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-02-2014, 07:22 PM
Ya, Kobe and Duncan had nothing to do with it. Hawk just stop

sure they do. A lot actually. But to act like they didn't play in very fortunate situations is ridiculous.

No one said that hawk, you just brought that up so you can downplay how dominate 10/3/2 is. Keep trying tho

Hawkeye15
07-02-2014, 07:23 PM
No one said that hawk, you just brought that up so you can downplay how dominate 10/3/2 is. Keep trying tho

it is dominant

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-02-2014, 07:25 PM
If they were on the same team they would each be in the discussion of top 3 or 4, because they would have 7 or 8 championships together, easily, and people like to equate team achievements to personal ability, so they would have roughly the same output with more accolades.


Kobe and Duncan are much more alike than Kobe/Shaq, they would co-exist for a lot longer and maybe be career Spurs/Lakers.

What's crazy is Kobe and Duncan have been battling it out this whole time with each other and everyone else and still managed to pull off 5 rings a piece. If one or the other didn't exist, either might have had a chance at goat.

XpLiCiTT
07-02-2014, 07:27 PM
No one said that hawk, you just brought that up so you can downplay how dominate 10/3/2 is. Keep trying tho

I'm not downplaying because Kobe and Duncan are both top 10 players. But you're attributing more that dominance to solely Kobe and Duncan and not crediting the organizations or anyone else. Look outside the box for once.

Hawkeye15
07-02-2014, 07:27 PM
What's crazy is Kobe and Duncan have been battling it out this whole time with each other and everyone else and still managed to pull off 5 rings a piece. If one or the other didn't exist, either might have had a chance at goat.

Kobe doesn't have the individual play to challenge for GOAT, no matter how many rings. Duncan probably doesn't either, when you put him up against MJ/KAJ/Wilt

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-02-2014, 07:30 PM
What's crazy is Kobe and Duncan have been battling it out this whole time with each other and everyone else and still managed to pull off 5 rings a piece. If one or the other didn't exist, either might have had a chance at goat.

Kobe doesn't have the individual play to challenge for GOAT, no matter how many rings. Duncan probably doesn't either, when you put him up against MJ/KAJ/Wilt

It would be absolutely debatable if they had the same stats. One more MVP. And 6-8 rings. Unfortunately for them, they had to fight each other and split it all up.

Hawkeye15
07-02-2014, 07:32 PM
It would be absolutely debatable if they had the same stats. One more MVP. And 6-8 rings. Unfortunately for them, they had to fight each other and split it all up.

their stats don't stand up against MJ, KAJ, or Wilt. Unfortunately for them, they simply aren't as good at basketball..

Tony_Starks
07-02-2014, 07:42 PM
response to all those its a team game people:

So in this Lebron era of basketball winning dosent matter only stats. It dosent mater how many championships you've led your team to because the 10 man off the bench deserves the same level of credit because its a team game........ :laugh:

Hold on there's more lol........

You can be seen as a team player... :laugh:.........:laugh:....... even though you head the belief that none of your teammates are ever good enough to share the court with you. From starter to stars to superstars, it's all there fault lmfao!!!!!

I Love This Game............................. :laugh:

Who does that? Who says things like that? Not Magic, Not Bird, Not Jordan, Not Shaq, and Not Kobe. None of these greats spits that crazy talk out, but Lebron James heads that belief, and his fans are form the body of it. Crazy world were in

Pretty much. In the good ol days we judged great players by how many championships they could win. Even greats like Barkley and Malone where/are put at a different level because they couldn't get it done. The undisputed GOAT coincidentally has 6 rings.

Then Kobe comes along, starts racking up rings, and surprise surprise we now live in the "anybody can get lucky......Robert Horry has 7 rings......blah blah blah" watered down era.

Coincidentally this era comes at a time when a certain player was proclaimed the hands down best player in the game without a ring in sight but had GREAT i.e. efficient stats.

Conclusion: stats matter, rings don't.

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-02-2014, 07:43 PM
It would be absolutely debatable if they had the same stats. One more MVP. And 6-8 rings. Unfortunately for them, they had to fight each other and split it all up.

their stats don't stand up against MJ, KAJ, or Wilt. Unfortunately for them, they simply aren't as good at basketball..

How is Duncan not on wilts level? Wilt is overrated. He has 2 rings and played in a watered down era.

Jamiecballer
07-02-2014, 08:27 PM
It would be absolutely debatable if they had the same stats. One more MVP. And 6-8 rings. Unfortunately for them, they had to fight each other and split it all up.
Nobody would ever look at Kobe's numbers compared to Jordan's and debate that Kobe was the GOAT no matter how many titles. Let's be serious. The discrepancy in the numbers is just too great, with all due respect.

Jamiecballer
07-02-2014, 08:36 PM
Pretty much. In the good ol days we judged great players by how many championships they could win. Even greats like Barkley and Malone where/are put at a different level because they couldn't get it done. The undisputed GOAT coincidentally has 6 rings.

Then Kobe comes along, starts racking up rings, and surprise surprise we now live in the "anybody can get lucky......Robert Horry has 7 rings......blah blah blah" watered down era.

Coincidentally this era comes at a time when a certain player was proclaimed the hands down best player in the game without a ring in sight but had GREAT i.e. efficient stats.

Conclusion: stats matter, rings don't.
I've heard you say lots of intelligent things lately - this is not one of them.

Giving such a heavy weight (when ranking individuals) to factors outside a players direct control defies logic. Literally.

THE MTL
07-02-2014, 08:53 PM
Stop saying Kobe and Duncan like they did it all. You should have just said Lakers and Spurs. Kobe didn't win finals MVP once while Shaq was the man on that team. And Duncan hasn't won finals MVP in his last two championships. Basketball is a teamsport and Spurs/Lakers always had great teams and great coaches too

Shlumpledink
07-02-2014, 09:18 PM
their stats don't stand up against MJ, KAJ, or Wilt. Unfortunately for them, they simply aren't as good at basketball..

Stats are how you determine basketball ability? Interesting.

Shlumpledink
07-02-2014, 09:25 PM
Stop saying Kobe and Duncan like they did it all. You should have just said Lakers and Spurs. Kobe didn't win finals MVP once while Shaq was the man on that team. And Duncan hasn't won finals MVP in his last two championships. Basketball is a teamsport and Spurs/Lakers always had great teams and great coaches too

Match-ups are key too. If the Lakers were going up against a team that had great post defense then Kobe was featured more, like in those Spurs' series. Instead they had to face an eastern conference team in the finals, which didnt really have dominant interior defense between ewing and the wallaces'.

AIRMAR72
07-02-2014, 09:46 PM
Kobe has had plenty of below **** teams. No pair of individuals have had such domination, outside of bill. That includes magic and bird.ok I get it you one of those lil kobesters but with 1seasonal MVP that took kobe 15yrs it's clear kobe didn't dominate

Hawkeye15
07-03-2014, 03:13 AM
Stats are how you determine basketball ability? Interesting.

no, they determine the best of the best when all other portions of the equation are there.

amos1er
07-03-2014, 03:41 AM
ok I get it you one of those lil kobesters but with 1seasonal MVP that took kobe 15yrs it's clear kobe didn't dominate

Yes, because Kobe really had control of how the media voted.

I tend to value players based on things they had control over... Regular season MVP awards are popularity contests for the most part. In no way to they determine who the best player in the league was at the time.

amos1er
07-03-2014, 03:54 AM
no, they determine the best of the best when all other portions of the equation are there.

Then how do you quantify the difference in stats with all other things being relatively equal and what stats would you use or value most.

How can we quantify for number of rings vs. how much a player contributed to that ring or how difficult it was to achieve.

What if player A. has 7 rings and player B. has 4 rings. Player A. is lesser in the advanced stats category but has greater longevity and one more MVP... See what I'm getting at here... How the **** do we quantify any of this... Can we award a point system for rings, accolades, achievements, awards, etc... Then handicap them based on subjective criteria such as difficulty, relevance, and importance. No one will ever agree on anything and personal bias will always play a factor. In the end, the overall majority of public perception will be judge, jury, and executioner. Though we can always fall back on the fact that we are all entitled to our own opinions. Oh well, it's and endless circle. Guess we will just go on debating the same crap over and over. Good times!!!

Shlumpledink
07-03-2014, 03:54 AM
no, they determine the best of the best when all other portions of the equation are there.

which are what exactly?

amos1er
07-03-2014, 04:00 AM
their stats don't stand up against MJ, KAJ, or Wilt. Unfortunately for them, they simply aren't as good at basketball..

You don't think that Kobe could have averaged 50 per game back in the early 60's...

amos1er
07-03-2014, 04:02 AM
I've heard you say lots of intelligent things lately - this is not one of them.

Giving such a heavy weight (when ranking individuals) to factors outside a players direct control defies logic. Literally.

Don't true winners always find a way to get the job done though...

thenaj17
07-03-2014, 05:14 AM
Phill has came out and said it wasnt kobe's fault, and that the fall out between kobe and shaq were due to shaqs goofy personality and kobes drive and will to win...

thats why they always bumped heads. Kobe wanted shaq to be more serious and dedicated... so really it was shaq that screwed it up by being a clown in practice and around the team rather than staying focused and dedicated like kobe always has been and is.

Read Phil's book. It had more to do with Shaq going behind Kobe's back to the press and slating him and then Kobe responding despite Phil asking him not to. Just kept escalating like that

eso
07-03-2014, 06:02 AM
Why dont we have a thread about how Kobe Couldnt win without Phil and Duncan couldnt win without Pop. Both guys had help as cid every other player who has a ring bar none, Jordan needed Phil and Pip stop the nonsense and enjoy the once in a life time talents we are blesses to witness..

basketfan4life
07-03-2014, 06:29 AM
statistically Kobe is better ... but in terms of being a team mate, do you really want to debate Kobe being a team mate and making other players around him better?

It's not the media that created that storm, it's fact - PJ left TWICE, Shaq while his departure was documented, Kobe did little to nothing to try to keep him, Fisher - Ariza, etc. Not to say Kobe has nothing to do with the front office and decision - really? He doesn't right - not one little bit.
Duncan on the other had - you know the story

Not saying the Lakers didn't make the right selection at the time BUT then again would we be saying that if Pau Gasol and Phil Jackson (along with Kobe) didn't win another title?

Kobe definetly makes players around him better. We can debate this all you want. The result won't change.

But the thing is, when Kobe makes his teammates better; you can say he had elite help. When they don't play good, you can say Kobe is a bad teammate.

When some other players(you know who) teammates play good, you can say he makes them better and when they suck, you can say they just suck.

It's called biased perception.

Jamiecballer
07-03-2014, 05:56 PM
no, they determine the best of the best when all other portions of the equation are there.
I agree. The first thing a smart sports fan does IMO is accept that their eyes cannot be trusted.

Jamiecballer
07-03-2014, 06:27 PM
Don't true winners always find a way to get the job done though...
Sure, but getting the job done IMO is not defined by winning, it's doing everything you possibly can in pursuit of winning. Doing your part - and then some.

You've got an unreasonably high bar if you or anyone thinks what James did this postseason doesn't qualify for that.