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ManRam
06-27-2014, 10:25 AM
Voting for the #2 player of all time has concluded. The winner is...

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

24.6 PPG | 11.20 RPG | 3.6 AST | 2.5 BPG | .559% FG | 24.58 PER

Achievements:

19 time All-Star
6 NBA Championships
6 Time MVP
2 Time Finals MVP
'70 Rookie Of The Year
10 Time All-NBA First Teamer
5 Time All-NBA Second Teamer
5 Time All-Defensive First Teamer
6 Time All-Defensive Second Teamer
Led the League in scoring 2 times
Led the League in blocks 4 times
Led the League in PER 9 times

Voting:

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar = 44 votes
Wilt Chamberlain = 13 votes
Magic Johnson = 9 votes
LeBron James = 7 votes
Bill Russell = 6 votes
Kobe Bryant = 5 votes
Shaquille O'Neal = 3 votes
Larry Bird = 2 votes
Hakeem Olajuwon = 2 votes
Tim Duncan = 1 vote
Moses Malone = 1 vote
Oscar Robertson = 0 votes



The List:

1. Michael Jordan (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?868731-PSD-s-Official-1-Player-of-All-Time)
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?868922-PSD-s-Official-2-NBA-Player-of-All-Time)

----------------------------------------

Please vote, explain AND nominate someone else to add to the future polling choices.

Julius Erving, David Robinson and Jerry West have been added to the poll

RocketLoc80
06-27-2014, 10:32 AM
Magic Johnson for me either him or Wilt but gun to my head i`ll go with Magic

ThuglifeJ
06-27-2014, 11:51 AM
Wilt or Bird. Ill vote wilt if needed since bird won't win this.

Honestly Tim Duncan has been climbing this thick list.

Wilt is hard to let drop past 3.


Good job on kaj!


I'll worry about this later but Vince needs to crack top 50 this time. He's earned it.

Lakers + Giants
06-27-2014, 12:59 PM
Magic. I love wilt too, but magics team success > individual achievements for me.

Minimal
06-27-2014, 01:02 PM
Wilt period

ThuglifeJ
06-27-2014, 01:02 PM
We need more voters who care though. Lebron getting 9 2nd place votes already is stupidity. I really want a well thought out list.

Bruno
06-27-2014, 01:53 PM
Wilt, then it gets interesting.

RocketLoc80
06-27-2014, 02:06 PM
We need more voters who care though. Lebron getting 9 2nd place votes already is stupidity. I really want a well thought out list.

Just as stupid as Kobe getting 10 for 1st place? Tell me why Lebron at least a top 10 player ever at least?

kdspurman
06-27-2014, 02:18 PM
We need more voters who care though. Lebron getting 9 2nd place votes already is stupidity. I really want a well thought out list.

Yea that was bad. He & Kobe both got 1st place votes too. Kind of to be expected though I guess unfortunately

ManRam
06-27-2014, 02:25 PM
Wilt, then it gets interesting.

This.

KnicksorBust
06-27-2014, 02:40 PM
People give Russell very little credit for winning his 11 rings in a league with less teams but Wilt played in that same league and only won 2 titles. The second of which he was the 4th leading scorer. Magic meanwhile won 5 titles in a league with more teams and stacked opponents like the 80s Celtics.

Magic
5× NBA champion (1980, 1982, 1985, 1987–1988)
3× NBA Finals MVP (1980, 1982, 1987)
3× NBA Most Valuable Player (1987, 1989–1990)
12× NBA All-Star (1980, 1982–1992)
2× NBA All-Star Game MVP (1990, 1992)
9× All-NBA First Team (1983–1991)

Wilt Chamberlain
2× NBA champion (1967, 1972)
NBA Finals MVP (1972)
4× NBA Most Valuable Player (1960, 1966–1968)
13× NBA All-Star (1960–1969, 1971–1973)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (1960)
7× All-NBA First Team (1960–1962, 1964, 1966–1968)

In terms of being teammates, Wilt alienated coaches and peers, asked to be traded, and played on 3 separate teams. Magic played his whole career with one franchise and as the all-time leader in APG, made life easier on his teammates all game long while being one of the most efficient offensive players in history. He found a way to make 9 finals and win 5 of them. He was the better winner and deserves the nod.

Magic Johnson

Bruno
06-27-2014, 03:22 PM
People give Russell very little credit for winning his 11 rings in a league with less teams but Wilt played in that same league and only won 2 titles. The second of which he was the 4th leading scorer. Magic meanwhile won 5 titles in a league with more teams and stacked opponents like the 80s Celtics.

Magic
5× NBA champion (1980, 1982, 1985, 1987–1988)
3× NBA Finals MVP (1980, 1982, 1987)
3× NBA Most Valuable Player (1987, 1989–1990)
12× NBA All-Star (1980, 1982–1992)
2× NBA All-Star Game MVP (1990, 1992)
9× All-NBA First Team (1983–1991)

Wilt Chamberlain
2× NBA champion (1967, 1972)
NBA Finals MVP (1972)
4× NBA Most Valuable Player (1960, 1966–1968)
13× NBA All-Star (1960–1969, 1971–1973)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (1960)
7× All-NBA First Team (1960–1962, 1964, 1966–1968)

In terms of being teammates, Wilt alienated coaches and peers, asked to be traded, and played on 3 separate teams. Magic played his whole career with one franchise and as the all-time leader in APG, made life easier on his teammates all game long while being one of the most efficient offensive players in history. He found a way to make 9 finals and win 5 of them. He was the better winner and deserves the nod.

Magic Johnson

Wilt would have won finals MVP in 1967 had the award existed.

KnicksorBust
06-27-2014, 03:33 PM
null

That still wouldnt give him as many as Magic. :)

ManRam
06-27-2014, 03:52 PM
Magic's only argument over Wilt is due to team success. That's all he's got. It's a strong argument, for sure, but team success needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Not all rings are created equal. There's too much context ignored when you say 5 rings > 2 rings therefore Magic > Wilt. Magic was consistently on better teams; he SHOULD have won more. Magic had the luxury of not bouncing around in his career. Maybe I'll break it down year-by-year more when I have time, but I'm not sure it matters. Wilt should, and will, win this vote.

I mean, Wilt's second all time in win shares. 5th highest PER ever. He's the most prolific rebounder of all time. He was one of two players ever to average over 30 points a game in his career. He played this thing called DEFENSE, which is literally half the game and literally something Magic often couldn't do. He was just a better player.

It's a matter of opinion, I guess. Magic had more team success, but there's no doubt in my mind that Wilt was the better player and that's what concerns me the most when we're ranking players.

tredigs
06-27-2014, 05:14 PM
^ I don't think it's Magic's only argument at all, but I do think it is a corollary to his strongest argument - which is that he was the ultimate team player and put winning first. Many would argue that Wilt was often the polar opposite, and would routinely choose individual dominance over what's best for the team, and that he was famously stat obsessed (insert dozen+ accounts/records here).

The team argument for Magic is a bit silly considering just how stacked those Lakers were (and that he was not even always the best player), but he DID in fact go against some truly epic teams himself, and when Wilt won he had no shortage of Hall Of Fame help alongside him. He also lost with massive help alongside him while being favored going into Finals.

It also did not help his cause that Wilt couldn't hit a clutch FT to save his life. In Finals game 7's he shot 5-23 from the line, one of them in a 2 point loss.

Wilt was probably the most potent basketball player in history, but I don't think he had the same "JUST. WIN." mentality that was in Russell, MJ, Magic and Bird. He was indeed bigger than the game, but probably to a fault.

All that said, there's a sliding scale where superior individual dominance eclipses even the greatest players of all time with better team mentalities, and somewhere around 3-5 is where I feel comfortable putting Wilt, and I would in fact have him over Magic.

I think the next murderers row of Duncan/Shaq/Magic/Bird/Lebron/Hakeem is where it gets really tight/interesting. And I will be extra curious to see where Russell falls to in that mix. I think that still being in the early stages of advanced statistics (that favor offense) and largely ignore 'leadership' intangibles as they are largely unidentifiable with #'s, he will slip in this draft farther than he should.

Bruno
06-27-2014, 06:33 PM
That still wouldnt give him as many as Magic. :)

no, but its worth noting the second because the list of players with two or more Finals MVPs is slim (and elite).

why do you so easily forgive Magics short career and defense?

Bruno
06-27-2014, 06:41 PM
The team argument for Magic is a bit silly considering just how stacked those Lakers were (and that he was not even always the best player), but he DID in fact go against some truly epic teams himself, and when Wilt won he had no shortage of Hall Of Fame help alongside him.
he had a few HOFers but its a lazy categorization. these guys have nothing on Magic 80's supporting cast.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHI/1967.html


He also lost with massive help alongside him while being favored going into Finals.
As has Magic.



I think the next murderers row of Duncan/Shaq/Magic/Bird/Lebron/Hakeem is where it gets really tight/interesting. And I will be extra curious to see where Russell falls to in that mix. I think that still being in the early stages of advanced statistics (that favor offense) and largely ignore 'leadership' intangibles as they are largely unidentifiable with #'s, he will slip in this draft farther than he should.
you forgot Kobe. :)

Bruno
06-27-2014, 06:43 PM
a lot of you guys who are constantly hammering on about Magics intangibles as "the ultimate team player" seem to scoff any other time a different players intangibles are mentioned or attempted to be made an important figure. you look up numbers and discredit the intangible debate in favor of the numbers. i'm not going to hunt through previous posts and quote them, but you know who you are. seemingly, Magic is an exception. unless I'm wrong.

the superstar treatment that Magic Johnson gets in the history books is only given to him because he's so likable.

hidalgo
06-27-2014, 07:31 PM
Mystic Johnson (my #2 all time)

roshan3ai
06-27-2014, 08:49 PM
Magic's only argument over Wilt is due to team success. That's all he's got. It's a strong argument, for sure, but team success needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Not all rings are created equal. There's too much context ignored when you say 5 rings > 2 rings therefore Magic > Wilt. Magic was consistently on better teams; he SHOULD have won more. Magic had the luxury of not bouncing around in his career. Maybe I'll break it down year-by-year more when I have time, but I'm not sure it matters. Wilt should, and will, win this vote.

I mean, Wilt's second all time in win shares. 5th highest PER ever. He's the most prolific rebounder of all time. He was one of two players ever to average over 30 points a game in his career. He played this thing called DEFENSE, which is literally half the game and literally something Magic often couldn't do. He was just a better player.

It's a matter of opinion, I guess. Magic had more team success, but there's no doubt in my mind that Wilt was the better player and that's what concerns me the most when we're ranking players.

Wilt played defense until he got five fouls and then literally escorted players to the hoop in an attempt to keep his steak of never fouling out in a game alive. When he was on the trade block, the players voted on whether they wanted Wilt on the squad. 9-2 in favor of no. The third greatest player of all-time? He's one of the worst teammates of all time, nobody wanted to play with him. He wasn't motivated to win, and he failed in many big moments when he had chances. Wilt, talent wise, would be no question here. He could do anything he wanted to. But he didn't, he was obsessed with stats. 2 championships is also pathetic in that 9 team league, especially considering how long he played. It's not like he had bad teams.


Source: Book of Basketball.

mngopher35
06-27-2014, 08:54 PM
We might have a close one here, I'm going Wilt. Magic was a great offensive player but Wilt is better overall.

Hawkeye15
06-27-2014, 09:03 PM
Arnold's co-star in Conan the Destroyer.

amos1er
06-27-2014, 09:12 PM
People give Russell very little credit for winning his 11 rings in a league with less teams but Wilt played in that same league and only won 2 titles. The second of which he was the 4th leading scorer. Magic meanwhile won 5 titles in a league with more teams and stacked opponents like the 80s Celtics.

Magic
5× NBA champion (1980, 1982, 1985, 1987–1988)
3× NBA Finals MVP (1980, 1982, 1987)
3× NBA Most Valuable Player (1987, 1989–1990)
12× NBA All-Star (1980, 1982–1992)
2× NBA All-Star Game MVP (1990, 1992)
9× All-NBA First Team (1983–1991)

Wilt Chamberlain
2× NBA champion (1967, 1972)
NBA Finals MVP (1972)
4× NBA Most Valuable Player (1960, 1966–1968)
13× NBA All-Star (1960–1969, 1971–1973)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (1960)
7× All-NBA First Team (1960–1962, 1964, 1966–1968)

In terms of being teammates, Wilt alienated coaches and peers, asked to be traded, and played on 3 separate teams. Magic played his whole career with one franchise and as the all-time leader in APG, made life easier on his teammates all game long while being one of the most efficient offensive players in history. He found a way to make 9 finals and win 5 of them. He was the better winner and deserves the nod.

Magic Johnson

Pretty much this.

Magic is the obvious choice for me. Magic had the better career and impacted the game and his team more IMO.

amos1er
06-27-2014, 09:19 PM
no, but its worth noting the second because the list of players with two or more Finals MVPs is slim (and elite).

why do you so easily forgive Magics short career and defense?

Magic did what was best for his teams success by playing out of position on defense. Dude was 6'9 and would have had a much better impact for his team and much easier time from a personal statistical standpoint defensively playing power forward, but he didn't, he knew that playing point had the better impact for his team so he put his personal stats aside and thats what he did. Can't really fault him for doing what was best for his team even if it meant being penalized as an individual on the defensive end. It's not like his defense was all that bad either. Russell's offense was certainly a lot worse.

amos1er
06-27-2014, 09:27 PM
Wilt played defense until he got five fouls and then literally escorted players to the hoop in an attempt to keep his steak of never fouling out in a game alive. When he was on the trade block, the players voted on whether they wanted Wilt on the squad. 9-2 in favor of no. The third greatest player of all-time? He's one of the worst teammates of all time, nobody wanted to play with him. He wasn't motivated to win, and he failed in many big moments when he had chances. Wilt, talent wise, would be no question here. He could do anything he wanted to. But he didn't, he was obsessed with stats. 2 championships is also pathetic in that 9 team league, especially considering how long he played. It's not like he had bad teams.


Source: Book of Basketball.

Wow, this is some pretty powerful stuff. Never knew all that.

alexander_37
06-27-2014, 10:36 PM
Im going

Wilt
Magic
then probably Hakeem till he wins
Bird
Russell
Shaq
Big O
Duncan
Kobe
Robinson
DR.J
Malone

KnicksorBust
06-27-2014, 10:42 PM
Magic's only argument over Wilt is due to team success. That's all he's got. It's a strong argument, for sure, but team success needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Not all rings are created equal. There's too much context ignored when you say 5 rings > 2 rings therefore Magic > Wilt. Magic was consistently on better teams; he SHOULD have won more. Magic had the luxury of not bouncing around in his career. Maybe I'll break it down year-by-year more when I have time, but I'm not sure it matters. Wilt should, and will, win this vote.

I mean, Wilt's second all time in win shares. 5th highest PER ever. He's the most prolific rebounder of all time. He was one of two players ever to average over 30 points a game in his career. He played this thing called DEFENSE, which is literally half the game and literally something Magic often couldn't do. He was just a better player.

It's a matter of opinion, I guess. Magic had more team success, but there's no doubt in my mind that Wilt was the better player and that's what concerns me the most when we're ranking players.

Wilt played defense until he got five fouls and then literally escorted players to the hoop in an attempt to keep his steak of never fouling out in a game alive. When he was on the trade block, the players voted on whether they wanted Wilt on the squad. 9-2 in favor of no. The third greatest player of all-time? He's one of the worst teammates of all time, nobody wanted to play with him. He wasn't motivated to win, and he failed in many big moments when he had chances. Wilt, talent wise, would be no question here. He could do anything he wanted to. But he didn't, he was obsessed with stats. 2 championships is also pathetic in that 9 team league, especially considering how long he played. It's not like he had bad teams.


Source: Book of Basketball.

Great post Bill Simmons. Very interested to hear rebuttals. Also, if people want to downplay team success and rings (you know, basically the #1 reason to play sports at any level) then I look forward to all the support Karl Malone and Patrick Ewing will get later in the voting.

THE MTL
06-27-2014, 11:23 PM
Magic for sure. Honestly I think Shaq and Hakeem would put up the same stats as Wilt had they been in that era. The game was so primitive! Oh yeah and 3 seconds in the paint. ...didn't exist for Wilt. And the paint was narrow

mightybosstone
06-27-2014, 11:28 PM
I'm super drunk, but i pick lebron. We'll seee how I feel about this voete tomororw.

Chronz
06-28-2014, 12:30 AM
Wilt and I'll crush all these b.s. claims when I'm home

ThuglifeJ
06-28-2014, 01:03 AM
We need more voters who care though. Lebron getting 9 2nd place votes already is stupidity. I really want a well thought out list.

Just as stupid as Kobe getting 10 for 1st place? Tell me why Lebron at least a top 10 player ever at least?

Kobe 1st place votes? Yah pretty bad but at least hes had a full career. U could argue he's the most talented, best footwork and stuff but not best NBA career ever.
And What was that second part? English please.

ThuglifeJ
06-28-2014, 01:15 AM
Funny how ppl can take shots on somebody and correlate them not being 'this good' because of a single trait like 'poor defender' . if someone can lead an entire team vocally, by presence and experience alone. Guide his team, run the offense amazingly and take the teams to highest heights because of it..translating in his teammates wanting to play even harder D and rebound better...inspire confidence..motivation to get better, play better. Make teammates better, find them for easiest high efficient baskets, out-man opposing players...that doesnt mean enough? Just simply 'great O, bad D'.

THE GAMES NOT THAT SIMPLE DUDES.

If someone's like an A+++ in offense and a C in defense they aren't as good as a guy who's a A- in offense and A- in defense because ones a 2 way player which is greater than all and everything? **** that.

And I don't even like Magic

Kaner
06-28-2014, 03:38 AM
Funny how ppl can take shots on somebody and correlate them not being 'this good' because of a single trait like 'poor defender' . if someone can lead an entire team vocally, by presence and experience alone. Guide his team, run the offense amazingly and take the teams to highest heights because of it..translating in his teammates wanting to play even harder D and rebound better...inspire confidence..motivation to get better, play better. Make teammates better, find them for easiest high efficient baskets, out-man opposing players...that doesnt mean enough? Just simply 'great O, bad D'.

THE GAMES NOT THAT SIMPLE DUDES.

If someone's like an A+++ in offense and a C in defense they aren't as good as a guy who's a A- in offense and A- in defense because ones a 2 way player which is greater than all and everything? **** that.

And I don't even like Magic
This isn't Magic Johnson vs Scottie Pippen though. For the 3rd best player of all-time it should be expected that the guys gonna be an A+++ on offense, but being able to anchor a defense is a pretty easy tie breaker for me.

flclfanman
06-28-2014, 03:46 AM
Wilt, then it gets interesting.

After Wilt, it's a coin flip for Magic or Bird

Also LOL at the 2 Kobe kids that voted him @3

amos1er
06-28-2014, 04:30 AM
It's Magic for me... Pretty hard to compete with these career achievements for the number three spot...

NBA achievements

Career Highlights
Only player in NBA history to average at least 22 points, 12 assists and 6 rebounds for a season
He accomplished the feat twice, in 1987 and 1989
One of four players in NBA history to win NCAA and NBA championships in consecutive years.
Includes Bill Russell, Henry Bibby, and Billy Thompson
One of five players in NBA history to record a triple-double in an NBA Finals clinching game: only to do it twice (1982 and 1985).
Includes Larry Bird (1986), James Worthy (1988), Tim Duncan (2003), and LeBron James (2012)
One of three players in NBA history to record a triple-double in their playoff debut.
Includes Johnny McCarthy and LeBron James
One of two players in NBA history to set 20+ assists in at least 30 games: achieved it 32 times
Includes John Stockton, who achieved it 38 times
Only player in NBA history to win the NBA Finals Most Valuable Player Award in his rookie season

Regular season
3× NBA Most Valuable Player (1987, 1989, 1990)
4× NBA assists leader (1983, 1984, 1986, 1987)
2× NBA steals leader (1981, 1982)
1× NBA free-throw percentage leader (1989)
9× All-NBA First Team (1983 to 91)
1× All-NBA Second Team (1982)
All-rookie first team (1980)

NBA All-Star Game
2× NBA All-Star Game MVP (1990, 1992)
12× NBA All-Star (1980, 1982–1992)

NBA Playoffs
5x NBA Playoffs assists leader (1980, 1984–87)
9x NBA Playoffs total assists leader (1980, 1983–89, 1991)
2x NBA Playoffs steals leader (1980, 1982)
2x NBA Playoffs total steals leader (1980, 1983)
1x NBA Playoffs minutes played leader (1983)
3x NBA Playoffs total minutes played leader (1983, 1988, 1991)
Led the 1991 NBA Playoffs in total minutes played, three points made, free throws made, defensive rebounds and assists

NBA Finals
3x NBA Finals MVP (1980, 1982, 1987)
5x NBA Champion (1980, 1982, 1985, 1987–88)
4x NBA runner-up (1983, 1984, 1989, 1991)
8x NBA Finals assists leader (1980, 1983–85, 1987–89, 1991)

amos1er
06-28-2014, 04:37 AM
Other than Jordan, Magic has the most Finals MVP's of All-Time.

GREATNESS ONE
06-28-2014, 11:35 AM
Magic than Wilt for me.

todu82
06-28-2014, 11:48 AM
Wilt.

FYL_McVeezy
06-28-2014, 02:35 PM
Gotta go with the Dipper here.....

His physicality transcends any generation. No need to go through his stats...

Bruno
06-28-2014, 04:59 PM
Wilt played defense until he got five fouls and then literally escorted players to the hoop in an attempt to keep his steak of never fouling out in a game alive. When he was on the trade block, the players voted on whether they wanted Wilt on the squad. 9-2 in favor of no. The third greatest player of all-time? He's one of the worst teammates of all time, nobody wanted to play with him. He wasn't motivated to win, and he failed in many big moments when he had chances. Wilt, talent wise, would be no question here. He could do anything he wanted to. But he didn't, he was obsessed with stats. 2 championships is also pathetic in that 9 team league, especially considering how long he played. It's not like he had bad teams.


Source: Book of Basketball.

lazy breakdown, the league had 17 teams in 1972 when Wilt won Finals MVP.

who was Wilts best teammate before joining the Lakers?

Bruno
06-28-2014, 05:00 PM
Other than Jordan, Magic has the most Finals MVP's of All-Time.
along with a few other players.

Bruno
06-28-2014, 05:01 PM
Magic did what was best for his teams success by playing out of position on defense. Dude was 6'9 and would have had a much better impact for his team and much easier time from a personal statistical standpoint defensively playing power forward, but he didn't, he knew that playing point had the better impact for his team so he put his personal stats aside and thats what he did. Can't really fault him for doing what was best for his team even if it meant being penalized as an individual on the defensive end. It's not like his defense was all that bad either. Russell's offense was certainly a lot worse.

so, point guard Magic Johnson played 'out of position' by guarding other point guards and should be heralded as a formidable defender?

Bruno
06-28-2014, 05:03 PM
if I remember right, weren't we getting hundreds of votes last time we did this? in the 150+ range?

Ezio
06-28-2014, 05:28 PM
Accidentally voted for Duncan. Change it to Wilt.

ManRam
06-28-2014, 06:04 PM
if I remember right, weren't we getting hundreds of votes last time we did this? in the 150+ range?

Yeah. Voting is way down. Not sure why. Kinda a bummer

Oh well.

Bruno
06-28-2014, 06:10 PM
Yeah. Voting is way down. Not sure why. Kinda a bummer

Oh well.

psd has lots of traffic but lots aren't voting.

Shlumpledink
06-28-2014, 07:04 PM
I vote Hakeem, best two-way player.

Pablonovi
06-28-2014, 07:26 PM
I voted Magic; but I could definitely live with Wilt.
As long as both are in the GOAT Top 4 !
I watched the entirety of Wilt's career (even saw him a few times the year before he joined the NBA; when he played with the Harlem Globetrotters. There wasn't anything he couldn't do except make FTs.

I picked Magic purely on the basis that for me, he's the GOAT #1 TEAM-mate; ALWAYS bringing out the best in his teammates - particularly on the Offensive end. I readily acknowledge that he was NOT an ELITE defender. BUT, my counter-argument is that, to win you have to outscore the other guys; and I do not believe any player has ever contributed more to a team scoring points better than Magic did.

Put him on any other team in history (except Stockton's Utah Jazz; where his addition would be very marginally better than Stockton's was); and that other team is decidedly better; with ALL the players playing the best ball they're capable of playing at that stage in their career.

So, though I generally defend Wilt with all I have, I take Magic because he was the essence of TEAM-work.

P.S. I'm loving these "debates". Lots of good points being made.

I'd just remind all of us that we are currently debating amongst NBA-ers who NOBODY would keep out of the GOAT Top 10; and most would have in the Top 5. To be that universally highly ranked is a tremendous achievement. We don't need to "attack" anybody within the GOAT Top 10; we can compare one vs the other without, in any way, saying that who we consider the inferior of these two all-time greatest players was in any way a bad player.

Heck, in my case, I've got nothing majorly bad to say about anybody in my (or most people's) GOAT Top 25.

Pablonovi
06-28-2014, 07:38 PM
In Wilt's favor I stand by this:
With the exception of George Mikan, Wilt was clearly THE most era-dominant player ever. In his era, he was far greater, imo, than his nearest individual competitors: West, "O", Baylor and Russell. More "greater" than they were than anybody since then was greater than his individual competitors.

Wilt individually DOMINATED the person UNIVERSALLY CONSIDERED THE GREATEST DEFENDER EVER - BILL RUSSELL. In about 140 head-to-heads (that's a huge number of games); Russell NEVER even much-slowed Wilt (even with the entire Celtics All-Star team lending a hand. Wilt averaged 29+ ppg and 29+ rpg vs Russell and those All-Star Celtics - a fraction less than he averaged against ALL the other centers and teams. Simply put, he DOMINATED RUSSELL.

One more thing, I saw virtually every game Wilt ever played that was televised (occasionally "live"; more often tape-delayed; sometimes considerably later). (I could never get enough of watching him.) In my own personal opinion, I believe Wilt was a better, more dominant defender than even Russell. That may be one opinion against millions; but I DID see them both play each other dozens of times and play everybody else too. People would not even attempt shots around Wilt that they would attempt around Bill. Russell was a phenomenal athlete; but Wilt was a once-in-a-century FREAK OF NATURE.

I've watched a lot of sports beside the NBA over the last 55+ years. I consider Wilt to be THE GREATEST ATHLETE OF THE ENTIRE 20TH CENTURY.

He WAS the: fastest guy in the league (he'd often rebound, pass out, and beat EVERYBODY down the court); he was incredibly strong; he had monster vertical leap (even as a 315 pounder, he blocked shots at the top of the backboard LATE in his career); he had virtually unlimited stamina (I am SURE he could go 40 minutes a game in any other era; especially today's where we basically don't have what I consider Centers).

I make the exception of Mikan with an "asterix". He was even more era-dominant; but his era was doubly weaker than Wilt's: totally un-integrated and the overall level of play must have been 1/2 what it was in the 1960's.

amos1er
06-28-2014, 08:55 PM
so, point guard Magic Johnson played 'out of position' by guarding other point guards and should be heralded as a formidable defender?

No, the point is that he sacrificed personal stats for the good of the team by playing point which was where his team needed him. Never said he should be heralded as a formidable defender... Just that it should be taken into account as to why his defense wasn't as good as it could have been.

He also lead the league in steals a few seasons as well as the playoffs. Not really someone I would compare to Russell on offense who was a liability.

amos1er
06-28-2014, 08:58 PM
psd has lots of traffic but lots aren't voting.

Yup, which could lead to a sample size deficiency if someone were to refute the poll results. More people should be voting... I think that the fact that this thread is stickied at the top of the page could be a reason why. If it were non stickied, I would think that more people would click on it and vote.

amos1er
06-28-2014, 09:00 PM
In Wilt's favor I stand by this:
With the exception of George Mikan, Wilt was clearly THE most era-dominant player ever. In his era, he was far greater, imo, than his nearest individual competitors: West, "O", Baylor and Russell. More "greater" than they were than anybody since then was greater than his individual competitors.

Wilt individually DOMINATED the person UNIVERSALLY CONSIDERED THE GREATEST DEFENDER EVER - BILL RUSSELL. In about 140 head-to-heads (that's a huge number of games); Russell NEVER even much-slowed Wilt (even with the entire Celtics All-Star team lending a hand. Wilt averaged 29+ ppg and 29+ rpg vs Russell and those All-Star Celtics - a fraction less than he averaged against ALL the other centers and teams. Simply put, he DOMINATED RUSSELL.

One more thing, I saw virtually every game Wilt ever played that was televised (occasionally "live"; more often tape-delayed; sometimes considerably later). (I could never get enough of watching him.) In my own personal opinion, I believe Wilt was a better, more dominant defender than even Russell. That may be one opinion against millions; but I DID see them both play each other dozens of times and play everybody else too. People would not even attempt shots around Wilt that they would attempt around Bill. Russell was a phenomenal athlete; but Wilt was a once-in-a-century FREAK OF NATURE.

I've watched a lot of sports beside the NBA over the last 55+ years. I consider Wilt to be THE GREATEST ATHLETE OF THE ENTIRE 20TH CENTURY.

He WAS the: fastest guy in the league (he'd often rebound, pass out, and beat EVERYBODY down the court); he was incredibly strong; he had monster vertical leap (even as a 315 pounder, he blocked shots at the top of the backboard LATE in his career); he had virtually unlimited stamina (I am SURE he could go 40 minutes a game in any other era; especially today's where we basically don't have what I consider Centers).

I make the exception of Mikan with an "asterix". He was even more era-dominant; but his era was doubly weaker than Wilt's: totally un-integrated and the overall level of play must have been 1/2 what it was in the 1960's.

Only Mikan won more chips. Personal statistical dominance does not always equal better overall dominance.

Chronz
06-28-2014, 10:14 PM
No, the point is that he sacrificed personal stats for the good of the team by playing point which was where his team needed him. Never said he should be heralded as a formidable defender... Just that it should be taken into account as to why his defense wasn't as good as it could have been.

He also lead the league in steals a few seasons as well as the playoffs. Not really someone I would compare to Russell on offense who was a liability.
Lmfao what a load of bull, magic played pg because he wanted complete control of the offense, it's why despite KAJ and his championship winning coach/offense wanting things to remain the same, magic forced the incumbent pg/coach out.


His numbers improved as a PG so plz spare us the baseless claims.

Magic was a defensive liability no matter where you put him, Wilt was a high level 2 way player that crushes magics impact as a result

Chronz
06-29-2014, 12:04 AM
Few cases for Wilt.



Joined a hapless team, turned them into contenders.
I know its a minor point but Magic would have rather returned to College than sign up for the tall task of rebuilding a team, its why he was all smiles when LA won the pick. Which is his choice, but it doesn't mean we just blindly glance at their ring counts and expect the superior player to simply come away with more. Wilt throughout his prime, simply never had the teams. The disadvantage against playing against THE greatest dynasty in NBA history is too often ignored. What matters more, is what they get out of their career situations, their individual play is something they can control FAR more than how well their teams ultimately succeed. Rings don't define individuals more than their actual impact on the game.

Wilt's teams had a tendency of facing juggernauts while his squads were either lacking in talent or health, Magic's were upset by a sub.500 squad among other inferior teams and he had the luxury of a weaker defensive conference.



Magic vs Wilt actually happened and why D separates the 2
The next reason matters, Magic was often a LIABILITY on D and couldn't shoot until later in his career. He was torched by speedsters and its one of the primary reason the Lakers weren't great on that end (Kareem being a ninny who couldn't rebound being the other). Wilt on the other hand was the kind of guy who even at an advanced age (post Knee op), would rise to the occasion defensively. Check his heroic performance vs KAJ where the Milwaukee crowd applauded his effort, effectively playing the far more talented KAJ to a standstill in one series, and completely taking him out of his rhythm in another. In fact, Wilt was such a dominant defender that he shut down the paint in a pickup game vs Magic himself. Magic was talking his usual trash when he angered the bad man. Wilt told everyone that there would no longer be any layups on his court and proceeded to back it up. Magic will tell you just how awe-inspiring it was to see a damn near 50 year old man do that to him and his mates.

vics
06-29-2014, 02:19 AM
Lebron

amos1er
06-29-2014, 02:30 AM
Lmfao what a load of bull, magic played pg because he wanted complete control of the offense, it's why despite KAJ and his championship winning coach/offense wanting things to remain the same, magic forced the incumbent pg/coach out.

As a result, the Lakers won more championships which proves my point even more. Magic's impact was greater as a pg at the helm of the offense than playing a traditional big man role where he would have fit better defensively. He was a two time steals champion under Westhead's offense so it just goes to show that he had the ability to be a more impactful defender, but as the teams offensive catalyst, his overall impact was greater.


His numbers improved as a PG so plz spare us the baseless claims.

Of course they did, and so did the Lakers as a franchise. Thats my point. He was better served on offense as a pg leading the charge than on defense defending other bigs. It's what you sacrifice when you have a 6'9 250 pound point guard. Obviously he isn't going to keep up with the smaller pg's and is going to have match up difficulties in general. All in all the franchise did fine with that winning five rings in an 12 year span with him.


Magic was a defensive liability no matter where you put him, Wilt was a high level 2 way player that crushes magics impact as a result

Your once again confusing individual statistical impact with overall impact.

amos1er
06-29-2014, 02:32 AM
Few cases for Wilt.



Joined a hapless team, turned them into contenders.
I know its a minor point but Magic would have rather returned to College than sign up for the tall task of rebuilding a team, its why he was all smiles when LA won the pick. Which is his choice, but it doesn't mean we just blindly glance at their ring counts and expect the superior player to simply come away with more. Wilt throughout his prime, simply never had the teams. The disadvantage against playing against THE greatest dynasty in NBA history is too often ignored. What matters more, is what they get out of their career situations, their individual play is something they can control FAR more than how well their teams ultimately succeed. Rings don't define individuals more than their actual impact on the game.

Wilt's teams had a tendency of facing juggernauts while his squads were either lacking in talent or health, Magic's were upset by a sub.500 squad among other inferior teams and he had the luxury of a weaker defensive conference.



Magic vs Wilt actually happened and why D separates the 2
The next reason matters, Magic was often a LIABILITY on D and couldn't shoot until later in his career. He was torched by speedsters and its one of the primary reason the Lakers weren't great on that end (Kareem being a ninny who couldn't rebound being the other). Wilt on the other hand was the kind of guy who even at an advanced age (post Knee op), would rise to the occasion defensively. Check his heroic performance vs KAJ where the Milwaukee crowd applauded his effort, effectively playing the far more talented KAJ to a standstill in one series, and completely taking him out of his rhythm in another. In fact, Wilt was such a dominant defender that he shut down the paint in a pickup game vs Magic himself. Magic was talking his usual trash when he angered the bad man. Wilt told everyone that there would no longer be any layups on his court and proceeded to back it up. Magic will tell you just how awe-inspiring it was to see a damn near 50 year old man do that to him and his mates.

What about Wilt's game 7 difficulties...

amos1er
06-29-2014, 02:33 AM
Magic's resume blows Wilts out of the water. I thought we were judging on overall greatness and impact, not fantasy league stat sheets.

amos1er
06-29-2014, 02:37 AM
How come no one brings up the fact that Wilt was a liability at the foul line with a career average of 51%.

Chronz
06-29-2014, 09:05 AM
As a result, the Lakers won more championships which proves my point even more.
Doesn't back your assertion that Magic played it at a statistical expense or that he did it selflessly. Unless demanding ones teammates/coaches to be exiled (to the Clippers no less) is considered a great selfless act.


Magic's impact was greater as a pg at the helm of the offense than playing a traditional big man role where he would have fit better defensively.
Agreed. Doesn't mean we ignore the reality of how and why it all occurred, nor do we simply discount that defensive influence of the positional change.


He was a two time steals champion under Westhead's offense so it just goes to show that he had the ability to be a more impactful defender, but as the teams offensive catalyst, his overall impact was greater.

Magic missed most of the 2nd season, didn't even qualify for an All-NBA team, so lets keep that non-existent steals award in perspective. And lets not overstate the positional change, Magic was always the guy who filled the gaps depending on what his team needed. Defensively, they hid him as best they could.



Of course they did, and so did the Lakers as a franchise. Thats my point. He was better served on offense as a pg leading the charge than on defense defending other bigs. It's what you sacrifice when you have a 6'9 250 pound point guard. Obviously he isn't going to keep up with the smaller pg's and is going to have match up difficulties in general. All in all the franchise did fine with that winning five rings in an 12 year span with him.
I'm not sure what makes you think Im contesting the fact that the Lakers were better served by obliging all of Magic's whims. Its impossible to prove otherwise if we go by your tried and true method of not being able to know the alternative either way. The ONLY things Im attacking are your subjective claims of selflessness, statistical sacrifice AND lame pass for being a defensive sieve.




Your once again confusing individual statistical impact with overall impact.
You're once again thinking you can get away with providing nothing but conjecture, try applying some facts and then I might care.


What about Wilt's game 7 difficulties...
This should be interesting.


How come no one brings up the fact that Wilt was a liability at the foul line with a career average of 51%.
LOL. Because in comparison to being a defensive liability for much greater portions of the ENTIRE GAME, its a minor complaint, particularly when hes an ELITE defender on top of that.

DR_1
06-29-2014, 09:11 AM
Wilt

Chronz
06-29-2014, 09:12 AM
Magic's resume blows Wilts out of the water. I thought we were judging on overall greatness and impact, not fantasy league stat sheets.
Nothing you said was factual. Nobody here provided any "fantasy" stats, we just dont stoop to the level of ignorance where we ignore all objective evidence in its entirety.

That we would rather focus on the individual more than what his team ultimately accomplished is a result of the fact that the individual has far more control of his own play than that of the 9 other players on the court. That he couldn't manipulate the game defensively gave him even less of an influence on the overall game.

Say what you will about the arguments applied here, at least none of us had to revise history in order to show case a non-existent selflessness (statistical and otherwise). None of us have to lie to defend our vote thats for sure.

Pablonovi
06-29-2014, 10:06 AM
As the poll is just about to be closed we've got:
Wilt 36,
Magic 24
Everybody else: 22
Total 82

I'm proud to be part of PSD when our collective voting is like this.

Pablonovi
06-29-2014, 10:13 AM
Hey High Horse (Chronz),
Forgive me for NOT tracking them down, but there's been more than one post of yours where you, imo, come down far too hard on KAJ (too thin, too weak, twig-like, bullied by beefier guys, etc.)

During KAJs 20 year-career, many of the greatest centers in NBA history played. Yet he had more:
ALL-NBA 1st-Teams Selections (10) than all of them COMBINED during those 20 years!
More All-NBA 1st-Teams + 2nd Team Selections (15 in his first 17 years !!) BY FAR than any of the rest of them.
ALL-NBA 1st-Team + 2nd Team Selections DEFENSIVE-TEAM (11) BY FAR than any of the rest of them.

In other words, he was, easily, by far, THE BEST Center of all of them during those 20 years; and in most of each of those single years (by any and all measures).

The worst that can be said about him is that the burlier guys were more difficult match-ups. But, they had their own difficulties (match-up problems against the other top centers) - enough so that he consistently beat out ALL of them for the top rankings.

Overall, I am consistently impressed with the depth and breadth of your NBA-related knowledge. I just think you're going overboard with your KAJ criticisms.

KnicksorBust
06-29-2014, 10:16 AM
lazy breakdown, the league had 17 teams in 1972 when Wilt won Finals MVP.

who was Wilts best teammate before joining the Lakers?

His rookie year he played with Hall of Famers Paul Arizin and Guy Rodgers. Arizin was a perennial top player and considered one of the 50 greatest players of all-time in 1996. Not even talent? Today that's what we'd call Wade and Bosh.

I feel like I fundamentally disagree and the criteria of these polls. If I was starting a team, maybe I'd pick Wilt but in terms of career results and impact, Magic accomplished more. He was as successful as an individual and more successful as a team player.

Pablonovi
06-29-2014, 10:20 AM
I Nominate Elgin Baylor, imo, THE Best Player Not Listed So Far
We've already put MJ & KAJ in the GOAT Top 2.
We have 14 guys listed in this Poll, making 16 all together.
Having seen the entirety of his career, in my opinion, Elgin Baylor was definitely a GOAT Top 16 All-Time NBA player.

Pablonovi
06-29-2014, 10:27 AM
I Nominate John Stockton, The 2nd Best PG Ever
Our list, so far, only includes 1 PG. I'm not proposing John Stockton was a GOAT Top 10-er; but I've definitely got him in my GOAT 11-20 Group.

In other words, of the players so far NOT listed (including Elgin Baylor who I've just nominated), imo, Stockton's the best, AND good enough to be included in the upcoming polls.

Otoh, I may be mis-interpreting what the purpose of "nominations" is. If their ONLY purpose is to add names that you feel should be considered for THE NEXT upcoming position (like GOAT #4), then I can't argue for either Baylor or Stockton anywhere's near THAT high.

Chronz
06-29-2014, 10:35 AM
Hey High Horse (Chronz),
Forgive me for NOT tracking them down, but there's been more than one post of yours where you, imo, come down far too hard on KAJ (too thin, too weak, twig-like, bullied by beefier guys, etc.)

During KAJs 20 year-career, many of the greatest centers in NBA history played. Yet he had more:
ALL-NBA 1st-Teams Selections (10) than all of them COMBINED during those 20 years!
More All-NBA 1st-Teams + 2nd Team Selections (15 in his first 17 years !!) BY FAR than any of the rest of them.
ALL-NBA 1st-Team + 2nd Team Selections DEFENSIVE-TEAM (11) BY FAR than any of the rest of them.

In other words, he was, easily, by far, THE BEST Center of all of them during those 20 years; and in most of each of those single years (by any and all measures).
This would be of far greater significance if this were just about his own era dominance, but when comparing players from different eras, you have to nitpick more than just regular season accolades. Twig boy was susceptible to the brutes for large portions of his prime, Wilt never had such a series long liabilities. Prime Kareem was contained to a greater degree than Wilt was, now obviously we are splitting hairs here, I often switch on the rankings myself, but we have to find something to highlight here. For Kareem, his 1 on 1 D is that liability. I honestly dont think that much of the competition he faced given the parity of the parity of the NBA at the time.


The worst that can be said about him is that the burlier guys were more difficult match-ups. But, they had their own difficulties (match-up problems against the other top centers) - enough so that he consistently beat out ALL of them for the top rankings.
Never been in question. Such a shame hes not competing against those other centers in this poll, otherwise I would vote for him over an old Wes/Thurmond as well. In a comparison against Wilt however, such a disadvantage 1 on 1 defensively can be a distinguishing factor. That fact is magnified when you consider that Wilt was ALSO better on the glass. Offensively, Kareem was the best, but that matchup difficulty is tough to ignore when the games very best Centers (Like Wilt-Shaq) all have that advantage over him. Kareem would get utterly destroyed by Shaq/Wilt in their primes, to the point where they would need constant help to even stand a chance. I just cant get over such a weakness personally . Both players would have defended Kareem better than he could them, that much is certain.


Overall, I am consistently impressed with the depth and breadth of your NBA-related knowledge. I just think you're going overboard with your KAJ criticisms.
You have to when arguing one GOAT over another.

Chronz
06-29-2014, 10:41 AM
His rookie year he played with Hall of Famers Paul Arizin and Guy Rodgers. Arizin was a perennial top player and considered one of the 50 greatest players of all-time in 1996. Not even talent? Today that's what we'd call Wade and Bosh.
Guess you havent been watching Wade lately but thats not exactly a compliment. If you're trying to ignore the stages of their careers and what they accomplished the year prior without Wilt then you might have a hallow point. HOF'ers Wade and Bosh would have never fielded such a weak team without Bron. Wilt took a bad team and turned them into contenders. His HOF teammates were on the way out of the league and he had to go elsewhere to find the help.


I feel like I fundamentally disagree and the criteria of these polls. If I was starting a team, maybe I'd pick Wilt but in terms of career results and impact, Magic accomplished more. He was as successful as an individual and more successful as a team player.
The criteria is open to interpretation, you just disagree with the voters more than anything. I did so in the last poll. Wilt was more successful as an individual, had lesser teammates in his prime and got more out of his teams talent. Magic SHOULD have had more team success considering he didn't even want the challenge of rising a team out of the gutter so thats not a very telling factoid.

Pablonovi
06-29-2014, 10:45 AM
This would be of far greater significance if this were just about his own era dominance, but when comparing players from different eras, you have to nitpick more than just regular season accolades. Twig boy was susceptible to the brutes for large portions of his prime, Wilt never had such a series long liabilities. Prime Kareem was contained to a greater degree than Wilt was, now obviously we are splitting hairs here, I often switch on the rankings myself, but we have to find something to highlight here. For Kareem, his 1 on 1 D is that liability. I honestly dont think that much of the competition he faced given the parity of the parity of the NBA at the time.


Never been in question. Such a shame hes not competing against those other centers in this poll, otherwise I would vote for him over an old Wes/Thurmond as well. In a comparison against Wilt however, such a disadvantage 1 on 1 defensively can be a distinguishing factor. That fact is magnified when you consider that Wilt was ALSO better on the glass. Offensively, Kareem was the best, but that matchup difficulty is tough to ignore when the games very best Centers (Like Wilt-Shaq) all have that advantage over him. Kareem would get utterly destroyed by Shaq/Wilt in their primes, to the point where they would need constant help to even stand a chance. I just cant get over such a weakness personally . Both players would have defended Kareem better than he could them, that much is certain.


You have to when arguing one GOAT over another.

Hey High Horse,
All valid points, specifically in regards one-on-one. I agree Wilt-Shaq beat KAJ in head-to-head match-ups.
One last point and a question for you:
KAJ was in awesome physical condition (pictures of him even way late in his career show a totally "marbled" physique (the reason I "bristle" at "twig boy").

Question: Where do YOU have KAJ on your GOAT list? (Sorry if I've missed where you already said; also, supposedly people can see how each of us voted in the Polls; but I don't see the individual votes listed.)

Chronz
06-29-2014, 10:58 AM
Hey High Horse,
All valid points, specifically in regards one-on-one. I agree Wilt-Shaq beat KAJ in head-to-head match-ups.
One last point and a question for you:
KAJ was in awesome physical condition (pictures of him even way late in his career show a totally "marbled" physique (the reason I "bristle" at "twig boy").

Question: Where do YOU have KAJ on your GOAT list? (Sorry if I've missed where you already said; also, supposedly people can see how each of us voted in the Polls; but I don't see the individual votes listed.)

Later in his career he developed his lower base/core and wasn't as easily dislodged, yes that Kareem would have stood a better chance, but as he developed so did his opponents. Moses was beasting on him till his later days.

Kareem had strength and Im not trying to depict him as lazy, what he lacked was the mass. Against almost anyone else but the 2 guys I constantly compare him to. I have KAJ 3rd. Wilt 2nd. But that switches from time to time. Shaq is usually bringing up the rear but I have to question that now with Duncan. Magic, Hakeem, Kobe tend to follow the next tier for me.

Pablonovi
06-29-2014, 08:39 PM
Kareem Utterly DOMINATED 13 Of The All-Time Greatest Centers (during KAJ's career)

Consider how KAJ "fared" in his first 17 years against 13 (=most) of the All-Time Greatest Centers:
Chronologically: Wilt Chamberlain, Willis Reed, Mel Daniels, Dave Cowens, Dan Issel, Bob McAdoo, Artis Gilmore, Bill Walton, Moses Malone, Robert Parish, Hakeem Olajuwon & Patrick Ewing.

Based on comparing their rankings/selections on the All-NBA 1st-Teams & 2nd-Teams:

KAJ crushed Wilt ......... 4-0
KAJ crushed Reed ....... 4-1 (in 1970,despite (1st Year) KAJ having WAY better stats, Willis was voted 1st-Tm).
KAJ crushed Daniels ... 7-0 (Daniels played 5 of these yrs (70-75) in the ABA. KAJ was clearly better).
KAJ crushed Unseld … 13-0 (In 1969, the yr before KAJ began playing, Unseld was ALL-NBA 1st-Tm & MVP.)
KAJ crushed Cowens . 12-1 (In 1975*, despite KAJ having WAY better stats, Cowens was voted higher).
KAJ crushed Issel ......15-0 (Issel played his first 6 years (71-76) in the ABA. KAJ was clearly better).
KAJ crushed McAdoo ..13-1 (In 1975*,KAJ & McAdoo had very similar stats;but #1 McAdoo beat him in ppg).
KAJ crushed Gilmore . 15-0 (Gilmore played his first 4 years (72-75) in the ABA. KAJ was clearly better).
KAJ crushed Walton .. 11-1 (In 1978**, KAJ & #1 Walton had very similar stats, but KAJ had 7ppg more.)
KAJ crushed M.Malone 8-4 (***) (Malone played his first 2 yrs (75-76) in the ABA) KAJ was clearly better).
KAJ crushed Parish .... 9-1 (In 1982, despite KAJ having WAY better stats, Parish was voted higher).
KAJ beat Olajuwon ..... 2-0
KAJ beat Ewing .......... 1-0

* 1975, KAJ broke his hand in the pre-season, missing first 16 regular season games. This may well have cost him the ALL-NBA 1st-Team spot to Bob McAdoo & did cost him the ALL-NBA 2nd-Team spot to Cowens.
** 1978, KAJ broke his hand (in a fight) in the second minute of the first game of the regular season. He missed 2 months. The fight and/or missing those 20 games may have cost him the #1 to Walton.
***
In 1979, despite very similar stats & KAJ getting 1st-Tm Defense; Moses was voted All-NBA 1st Team.
In 1982, KAJ beat Moses by 6% shooting; but Moses had 7 more ppg & 6 more rpg & won 1st-Team.
In 1983, KAJ beat Moses by 9% shooting; but Moses had 3 more ppg & 8 more rpg & won 1st-Team.
In 1985, KAJ beat Moses by 13% shooting; but Moses had 3 more ppg & 5 more rpg & won 1st-Team.

COLLECTIVELY:
KAJ CRUSHED the field (of 13 Great Centers): 113-9 !!! (For an average of: 8.7 – 0.7)
That is total, utter, complete DOMINATION of 13 Great Players.

Remember these are not just 13 of the Greatest Centers ever, most of them are All-Time GOAT Top 50 guys. NO ONE ELSE EVER has so completely DOMINATED so many of the All-Time GOAT Top 50 guys Head-To-Head.

During his first 17 years, KAJ was:
ALL-NBA 1st-Team: 10 Times (71+MVP, 72+MVP, 73, 74+MVP, 76+MVP, 77+MVP, 80+MVP, 81, 84, 86*) * His last ALL-NBA 1st-Team came 15 yrs after his 1st one!

ALL-NBA 2nd-Team: 5 Times (70, 78, 79, 83, 85)

ALL-NBA 1st-Team + ALL-NBA 2nd-Team: 15 Times (THE Most Ever).

“ALL-NBA 3rd-Team”: 2 Times (75, 82)

(N.B. There were no official 3rd-Teams back then; but he received the 3rd most votes among the Centers).

In his 18th year, KAJ again received enough votes to have made a would-be “ALL-NBA 3rd-Team”.
- - - - -
next post:
MJ Utterly DOMINATED 13 Mostly Relatively-Mediocre “SGs” (during his 10-11 Great years)

P.S. Don't even ask how many hours all the research and writing this post took! (Yikes, tons!)

Pablonovi
06-29-2014, 08:54 PM
MJ Utterly DOMINATED 13 Mostly Relatively-Mediocre “SGs” (during his 10-11 Great Years)

These were ALL 16 of the guys who played at least some SG during the 19-year span of MJ’s career AND who won: ALL-NBA 1st-Team, ALL-NBA 2nd-Team or ALL-NBA 3rd-Team:

Moncrief (+PG), Lever (+PG), Drexler (+SF), Ellis, Dumars, Petrovic, Sprewel, Richmond, Penny Hardaway (+PG), Miller, Bryant, Iverson (+PG), Eddie Jones, McGrady(+SF), Ray Allen & Pierce (+SF).

N.B. We are not counting against MJ the 4 full seasons he QUIT, nor the 2 years where he played less than a quarter season (<20 games) 86 & 95 (and thus got beat for the ALL-NBA Teams). That leaves him only having played 13 full seasons.

But, Sprewell, Eddie Jones & Ray Allen did NOT win these awards in any of those 13 full season; so they’re out of this discussion.

These were ALL 13 of the guys who played at least some SG during MJ’s 13 full seasons, AND who won: ALL-NBA 1st-Team, ALL-NBA 2nd-Team or ALL-NBA 3rd-Team:

Moncrief (+PG), Lever (+PG), Drexler (+SF), Ellis, Dumars, Petrovic, Richmond, P.Hardaway (+PG), Miller, Bryant, Iverson (+PG), McGrady(+SF) & Pierce (+SF).

Before going any further, ask yourself, how truly great were most of these guys? A lot of you may not even know some (or many) of their first names.

First, please notice that:
4 guys: Moncrief, Lever, Penny Hardaway, & Allen Iverson ALL also played lots of PG – so they were only partially competitors of MJ.

Also:

3 guys: Drexler, McGrady & Pierce ALL also played lots of SF – so they too were only partially competitors of MJ.

Also:

4 guys: Ellis, Petrovic, Miller & Pierce ONLY won ALL-NBA 3rd-Teams during MJ’s 13 full seasons. Thus they were NOT close to being All-Time Greats nor, of course, very-tough competition for MJ.

Also:

5 guys: Petrovic, Bryant, Iverson,McGrady & Pierce each played only 4 seasons or less during MJ’s 13 yrs.

Also:

1 guy: Penny Hardaway only played 5 seasons during MJ’s 13 seasons.

Also:

4 guys: Bryant, Iverson, McGrady & Pierce only won their awards during MJ’s last 2 yrs, by far his worst. (So, being generous, I'm not holding that against MJ; but he certainly can't get any good credit for being dominated by them.)

So, of the 13 guys who played some SG during MJ’s 13 full seasons, & who won: ALL-NBA 1st-Team, ALL-NBA 2nd-Team or ALL-NBA 3rd-Team, HOW MANY WERE GREAT PLAYERS?

NBA GOAT All-Time Top 10?

1 guy: Kobe Bryant (and remember Kobe dominated MJ during MJ’s last & worst 2 seasons)

NBA GOAT All-Time Top 25?

1 (possibly 2) guys: Kobe Bryant, and ? maybe Drexler (I don’t have him nearly this high).

NBA GOAT All-Time Top 50?

3 to 5 guys: Bryant, Drexler, McGrady, Iverson, Miller (I don’t have either AI or Miller nearly this high).

These 5 are EASILY MJ’s toughest competition during his 13 full seasons. What can we say about them:
1) 3 of the five of them: Bryant, Iverson, McGrady weren’t any good until MJ’s last two seasons!
2) 1 of the five of them: Miller was not a really great player.

CLYDLE DREXLER was the ONLY serious competition MJ faced during his 10-11 Great Yrs. ONE GUY! (And most people, including myself, would not have him in the NBA GOAT All-Time Top 25).

And just how great was Clyde Drexler. Clyde ONLY won:

ALL-NBA 1st-Team: 1 (!);
ALL-NBA 2nd-Team: 2 (!);
ALL-NBA 3rd-Team: 2 (!) (He won one in 95, when MJ played less than 20 games).

According to ALL-NBA Team Selections, this highly-informative (non-) “Stat”,
Clyde Drexler was not very great at all !

MJ Utterly DOMINATED 13 Mostly Relatively-Mediocre “SGs” (during his 10-11 Great years)!

P.S. Don't even ask how many hours all the research and writing this post took! (Yikes, tons!)
btw, I absolutely LOVED MJ during his career; and still do absolutely LOVE MJ. I'm just trying to deal with the facts: research them & try, as best I can, to analyze them correctly & accept what they represent.

JordansBulls
06-29-2014, 09:38 PM
Why are MJ and Kareem being talked about here when both are off the board? Discussion should be about Wilt vs Magic here since they have the next most votes and battling for the #3 spot.

Pablonovi
06-29-2014, 10:11 PM
Why are MJ and Kareem being talked about here when both are off the board? Discussion should be about Wilt vs Magic here since they have the next most votes and battling for the #3 spot.

Hey JB,
Good point. I just right this moment was looking for the early threads so I can put these where they really belong.

Pablonovi
06-29-2014, 10:18 PM
Only Mikan won more chips. Personal statistical dominance does not always equal better overall dominance.

Hey amos1er,
I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. So don't know how to respond. Mind clarifying?

Just so everybody else can follow - this is in reference to a post of mine comparing Wilt's era-dominance to Mikan's era-dominance. I had said that in all of NBA (ABA, NBL) history, only Mikan was more era-dominant than Wilt; BUT that I consider Wilt's more valid because Mikan's was so weak due to both being totally non-integrated AND the level of overall play being about 1/2 of what it was since Wilt's time.

Pablonovi
06-29-2014, 10:53 PM
Yeah. Voting is way down. Not sure why. Kinda a bummer

Oh well.

Hey ManRam,
What were the particularities of the voting the last time; meaning, did you-all do something different/better last time; was the timing different; were the Finals right before then more exciting than these were? (Myself, I thought these Finals were awesome - because of Spur-fection & LeBron playing great ball.) Does PSD currently have less people hanging around here? Did you-all "hype" the Poll and related threads better?

Perhaps, it's a symptom of the "Super-Star 'Syndrome'"? In other words, IF the HEAT had won these Finals and/or LeBron had gone totally dominant - maybe that would have caused these discussions to get radically more stirred up?

P.S. How do we find the next "installment" asap? Could you leave LINKS to them in the earlier "installments"?
For example, I missed thread #1 until after the Poll was closed; and only found out about it and #2 because a kindly fellow-poster suggested I check them out. (So that's mostly on me, my bad; and a big thanx to him). But then, when I went looking for this thread for #3; I had difficulty finding it at first.

Chronz
06-29-2014, 10:59 PM
Hey amos1er,
I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. So don't know how to respond. Mind clarifying?

Just so everybody else can follow - this is in reference to a post of mine comparing Wilt's era-dominance to Mikan's era-dominance. I had said that in all of NBA (ABA, NBL) history, only Mikan was more era-dominant than Wilt; BUT that I consider Wilt's more valid because Mikan's was so weak due to both being totally non-integrated AND the level of overall play being about 1/2 of what it was since Wilt's time.
He thinks u relied on nothing but numbers, it's his go to when he has very little in the way of objective evidence

Pablonovi
06-30-2014, 07:15 AM
He thinks u relied on nothing but numbers, it's his go to when he has very little in the way of objective evidence

Hey High Horse,
You MAY be right about him. My answer IF that is indeed what he was trying to say is:
I pretty much did just the OPPOSITE. I used NO STATS at all. But instead, the opinions / votes / selections of relatively highly-qualified people whose job(s) is/are to report on the game, the teams and the players.

I have found that, IMO, the All-NBA 1st-Team, 2nd-Team (&, less so, 3rd-Team) seem to be (much) better reflections of who were the best 1-3 players at each position each year/season than any stat (advanced or otherwise) or any combination of stats that I've seen (so far). Having seen the entire careers of ALL the would-be GOAT candidates (assuming Mikan won't be in the Top 25; and that Pettit, whose career I saw a bit over half of also won't rank very high here); the All-NBA (and, earlier, All-ABA) "remind" me of what my "eye test" saw. (If you see my point? hehe)

Even in the case of the oldest All-League Selections (like All-NBL) they VERY closely reflect what my dad "raised" me on (Mikan & the Mikan drill; Pollard, Lovelette, Arizin, etc); back when I first started watching the late-50's NBA, and he was constantly comparing the "new" Greats to the past ones. Though he truly loved "his oldtimers; he was so tolerant, so open to the possibility of the "new" outshining the old.

AND, he took me to see the Harlem Globetrotters (with Wilt one year, without him other years). Now THAT WAS NOT-NBA, BUT BOY WAS IT SPECIAL!

Did I digress? (again?) hehe

(This does give me the opportunity to thank you & Hawk, BenDutsu (& a few others) who have been kind enough, and informed enough, to help me (begin to) understand the advanced stats).

Longhornfan1234
06-30-2014, 01:08 PM
Wilt.