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JasonJohnHorn
06-26-2014, 09:40 AM
Who do you think the greatest defensive center of all time is? We are talking strictly defense here, so the offensive game doesn't come into play.

I put a pole up, but there are only eleven guys. I've included an 'other' option for guys I didn't included (which is obviously a lot).

Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlain
Nate Thurmond
Wes Unseld
Hakeem Olajuwon
David Robinson
Mark Eaton
Alonzo Mourning
Dikembe Mutmbo
Ben Wallace
Dwight Howard

Blink
06-26-2014, 09:47 AM
Homer pick Ben Wallace

OlivaThor
06-26-2014, 10:06 AM
Russel, Morning, Wallace

mightybosstone
06-26-2014, 10:08 AM
Unseld does not belong on this list. The guy was a 6'7" center who I don't believe ever made an all-defensive team in his entire career. I'd much rather have seen Kareem on this list than him.

As for the other 10 guys, you can make a case for a lot of players. If we're talking defensive dominance within their own respective eras, I'd go with Russell. But if we're talking defense across any generation I'm taking Hakeem. There are other guys who might have played better one-on-one individual post defense like Thurmond or Deke, but Hakeem's athleticism allowed him to play elite help defense and defend opposing 4s at times. He also deserves so much credit for his ability to shut down other elite centers in the playoffs. His dominance of Ewing in the 94 Finals and Robinson in the 94 WCF is the stuff of legends.

Obviously this is a bit of a homer pick, I'll admit. But I think you could make a strong case for 6-8 guys on this list if you tried hard enough. There have been so many great defensive big men in the NBA's history, and there are so many different parameters for judging defenders.

Snakeyestx
06-26-2014, 10:33 AM
If we're basing this solely on defense, my vote's for Dikembe with Olajuwon a close second.

InRoseWeTrust
06-26-2014, 10:43 AM
Hakeem.

Cromedome
06-26-2014, 10:45 AM
Tyson Chandler

mightybosstone
06-26-2014, 10:51 AM
Tyson Chandler

You can't be serious. Chandler isn't even the best defensive big man in the NBA right now, much less of all-time. He's a solid defensive anchor, but he doesn't offer nearly the versatility, the stout post defense, the shot blocking or the athleticism of other guys on this list. I don't think I'd even put the guy in my top 10-15 defensive centers of all-time. So what's your justification?

Cromedome
06-26-2014, 10:55 AM
. So what's your justification?

The op asked a question and I gave an answer. That's my justification.

mightybosstone
06-26-2014, 11:04 AM
The op asked a question and I gave an answer. That's my justification.

Well, it's a terrible answer. And what the hell is the point of posting on an Internet sports forum if you'r not going to discuss sports? :shrug:

Chronz
06-26-2014, 11:13 AM
The best defenders tend to be guys who aren't all that elite at defending their position but defending the other 4 guys on the court.

Dream-Russell are the first 2 the rest are fighting for 3rd place.

NoahH
06-26-2014, 11:14 AM
I picked Mutumbo

asandhu23
06-26-2014, 11:16 AM
Russell, Wilt, Thurmond and then Hakeem.

ghettosean
06-26-2014, 11:27 AM
Hakeem.

Diddo!

JLynn943
06-26-2014, 11:33 AM
Torn between Hakeem and Dikembe, but ended up going with Hakeem.

KG21
06-26-2014, 11:54 AM
Big Ben Wallace. Only guy who could contain Shaq who still played well.

curtcocaine
06-26-2014, 11:54 AM
Shaq

YAALREADYKNO
06-26-2014, 12:15 PM
its hakeem just look at who he went up against he played against better competition than russell

bagwell368
06-26-2014, 12:26 PM
Unseld? His stats basically went down every year over year due to his injuries. At his best the greatest outlet pass of all time, killer D rebounder, to body brute on D - but that was like 4 years. No business in the group career wise.

Eaton is another that doesn't belong, or if he does, he's at the end of the line.

Hakeem is the answer BTW, Russell played on a great team with a great coach in league of not very athletic guys that couldn't jump. There are D2 players these days that could have played - and played well in the NBA in 1959.

THE MTL
06-26-2014, 12:40 PM
To those saying Russell must think about how he would fair in today's NBA. No doubt he would still be a beast but for 6'10" skinny center, you have better picks like Mutumbo and Olajawon.

ManningToTyree
06-26-2014, 12:48 PM
Hakeem

Chronz
06-26-2014, 01:28 PM
To those saying Russell must think about how he would fair in today's NBA. No doubt he would still be a beast but for 6'10" skinny center, you have better picks like Mutumbo and Olajawon.

In todays NBA Russell (who topped out at 240 IIRC) wouldn't be as skinny but even so, he wasn't as small as you think. The guy took on and limited Wilt Chamberlain, an athletic specimen that would humiliate todays crop of Centers, why would we doubt him? His impact defensively is legendary.

lakerfan85
06-26-2014, 01:30 PM
Mark Eaton...

Minimal
06-26-2014, 01:36 PM
Hakeem, someone who was outstanding on defense, with the amount of energy he spent on offense

slashsnake
06-26-2014, 01:43 PM
In todays NBA Russell (who topped out at 240 IIRC) wouldn't be as skinny but even so, he wasn't as small as you think. The guy took on and limited Wilt Chamberlain, an athletic specimen that would humiliate todays crop of Centers, why would we doubt him? His impact defensively is legendary.

It would be interesting to see how those guys would be today where there are more than a handful of his size. There were 3 other guys in the NBA 6'10" or taller when he was drafted. Take when Shaq was drafted and you had 110 guys that height.

There's a lot that makes him tough to bring into this conversation for me, I have a feeling I'd have no way of ranking him in comparison to the others, because I just didn't see enough of him.

To me, I'll limit it to those I've watched, and I come down with hakeem and Motumbo. Both dominated defensively in the era of the elite centers. Sorry Ben.

Minimal
06-26-2014, 01:51 PM
In todays NBA Russell (who topped out at 240 IIRC) wouldn't be as skinny but even so, he wasn't as small as you think. The guy took on and limited Wilt Chamberlain, an athletic specimen that would humiliate todays crop of Centers, why would we doubt him? His impact defensively is legendary.
Ahaha, please. Bill Russell was a nobody against Wilt. Russell averaged 14.8 rebounds against Wilt (Bills career average 22.5), while Wilt averaged 28.7 rebounds against Bill. Hard to call him the best defensive center when his oposing center dominates him on the boards. Limited? Wilt averaged 28.7 PPG against Bill, and scored 40 or more points 26 times against Bill in his career.

KnicksorBust
06-26-2014, 01:57 PM
There was a time I thought Dwight would one day be the answer to this...

D-Leethal
06-26-2014, 02:35 PM
To those saying Russell must think about how he would fair in today's NBA. No doubt he would still be a beast but for 6'10" skinny center, you have better picks like Mutumbo and Olajawon.

Anthony Davis seems to fair pretty well defensively. In today's NBA Russell would be afforded all the modern training and nutrition so he wouldn't be "skinny".

ewing
06-26-2014, 03:17 PM
where's Ewing?

savvy1803
06-26-2014, 03:20 PM
Bill Russell .

flea
06-26-2014, 03:29 PM
Dream and Mutumbo from the list. Duncan belongs in this conversation because he has an argument for being better than everyone listed as well. It's sort of a different conversation in the zone defense era, but you cannot argue with the fact that Duncan mastered it.

flea
06-26-2014, 03:31 PM
To those saying Russell must think about how he would fair in today's NBA. No doubt he would still be a beast but for 6'10" skinny center, you have better picks like Mutumbo and Olajawon.

Dream was probably shorter than 6'10 and built like a guard. Size doesn't matter when you have skill and strength (see: 38 year old Duncan).

mightybosstone
06-26-2014, 03:44 PM
Ahaha, please. Bill Russell was a nobody against Wilt. Russell averaged 14.8 rebounds against Wilt (Bills career average 22.5), while Wilt averaged 28.7 rebounds against Bill. Hard to call him the best defensive center when his oposing center dominates him on the boards. Limited? Wilt averaged 28.7 PPG against Bill, and scored 40 or more points 26 times against Bill in his career.

Wut? This has got to be the worst argument I've seen on PSD all week. You're using rebounding averages in a small sample size against a particular player as your entire justification for why Russell isn't a great all-time defender. That's like using FTA of a player against another particular player as a justification for why that guy isn't a good offensive player. Rebounds are one very small part of defense that actually have very little to do with actual defense. If you base who the best defender is on rebounding, then Kevin Love has probably been the best defensive player in the league over the last five seasons.

Hawkeye15
06-26-2014, 04:08 PM
Hakeem probably, because his completely elite ability to control his teams defense with his ability to help and recover, essentially limiting not only his own man, but the entire other team.

I mean, how many centers could switch on a pick, keep a PG out of the lane, and recover to his man without the offense gaining any advantage at all, even when he was defending a little guy 22 feet from the rim?

Russell is a close, close 2nd for me, but Hakeem's overall athletic ability and impact on the entire offense his team was defending decides it for me.

Hawkeye15
06-26-2014, 04:09 PM
Dream was probably shorter than 6'10 and built like a guard. Size doesn't matter when you have skill and strength (see: 38 year old Duncan).

yeah, Hakeem and the Rox came down in 95' to my school in Galveston to practice, and Dream wasn't close to 7'. Kevin Willis had 2 inches on him probably. I would guess around 6'10" or so.

Minimal
06-26-2014, 04:19 PM
Wut? This has got to be the worst argument I've seen on PSD all week. You're using rebounding averages in a small sample size against a particular player as your entire justification for why Russell isn't a great all-time defender. That's like using FTA of a player against another particular player as a justification for why that guy isn't a good offensive player. Rebounds are one very small part of defense that actually have very little to do with actual defense. If you base who the best defender is on rebounding, then Kevin Love has probably been the best defensive player in the league over the last five seasons.
Defensive rebounds is a big part of team defense, and for most part big guys are responsible for them. Its not a small sample size, if Wilt scored 40 points or more in 26 games against Bill, how many times did they meet in their careers? I say around 100 games, is that a small sample size? Wilt outrebounded Bill two times more and averaged 5 RPG more against Bill than his career average of 22.9 RPG. So how did Bill actually limit Wilt? My post was not about Russell not being a great defensive player, he probably was, but more about Russell not being able to stop Wilt, because a lot of people assume that Bill winning rings means he outplayed Wilt, that wasn't the case.
Love is not gonna get named as great defensive player, because he sucks at every other aspect of defense.

mightybosstone
06-26-2014, 04:51 PM
Defensive rebounds is a big part of team defense, and for most part big guys are responsible for them.
Team rebounding is a big part of team defense, but individual rebounding has very little to do with individual defense. Love is a top 5 rebounder in the league and is a well below average defender for his position. Barkley is a top 5 all-time rebounder and was notoriously a horrible rebounder. Marc Gasol is not a good rebounder at all, but might just be the best defensive big man in the game.

Rebounding prevents a team from getting an additional possession, so that certainly helps defensively. But good rebounding stats doesn't mean you're doing a good job of preventing an opposing player or team from scoring on given possessions. Rebounding in no way equals defense.


Its not a small sample size, if Wilt scored 40 points or more in 26 games against Bill, how many times did they meet in their careers? I say around 100 games, is that a small sample size? Wilt outrebounded Bill two times more and averaged 5 RPG more against Bill than his career average of 22.9 RPG. So how did Bill actually limit Wilt? My post was not about Russell not being a great defensive player, he probably was, but more about Russell not being able to stop Wilt, because a lot of people assume that Bill winning rings means he outplayed Wilt, that wasn't the case.
Who gives a **** about head-to-head rebounding numbers? It's completely irrelevant. You want to talk head-to-head sample sizes, how about the fact that Wilt's teams were something like 1-6 or 1-5 against Russell's teams all-time in the playoffs and the fact that Wilt's offensive numbers head-to-head completely paled in comparison to what his career numbers were like? Wilt was a career 30/23/4 guy on 54% shooting. In 51 career games against Russell, he put up only 23 points on 43.6% shooting. And Wilt's playoff numbers weren't much better at 23.4 points on 46.1%.

You want to see what a great defender can do? That's an example right there.


Love is not gonna get named as great defensive player, because he sucks at every other aspect of defense.
Oh, so you openly admit that rebounding is only one minor aspect of defense? And yet you criticize Russell for getting outrebounded against one other player and use that for your justification for why the guy wasn't a great defender. Also, in your atrocious initial argument, you use Russell's 14.8 RPG as an example of poor rebounding. In what universe is that poor rebounding? Even in the 60s, 14.8 RPG would have been a damn good season average.

You're just so wrong on so many levels...

jimmyb33
06-26-2014, 05:22 PM
where's Ewing?

I was wondering the same thing. He's way up on the list for me.

Minimal
06-26-2014, 05:24 PM
Team rebounding is a big part of team defense, but individual rebounding has very little to do with individual defense. Love is a top 5 rebounder in the league and is a well below average defender for his position. Barkley is a top 5 all-time rebounder and was notoriously a horrible rebounder. Marc Gasol is not a good rebounder at all, but might just be the best defensive big man in the game.

Rebounding prevents a team from getting an additional possession, so that certainly helps defensively. But good rebounding stats doesn't mean you're doing a good job of preventing an opposing player or team from scoring on given possessions. Rebounding in no way equals defense.


Who gives a **** about head-to-head rebounding numbers? It's completely irrelevant. You want to talk head-to-head sample sizes, how about the fact that Wilt's teams were something like 1-6 or 1-5 against Russell's teams all-time in the playoffs and the fact that Wilt's offensive numbers head-to-head completely paled in comparison to what his career numbers were like? Wilt was a career 30/23/4 guy on 54% shooting. In 51 career games against Russell, he put up only 23 points on 43.6% shooting. And Wilt's playoff numbers weren't much better at 23.4 points on 46.1%.

You want to see what a great defender can do? That's an example right there.


Oh, so you openly admit that rebounding is only one minor aspect of defense? And yet you criticize Russell for getting outrebounded against one other player and use that for your justification for why the guy wasn't a great defender. Also, in your atrocious initial argument, you use Russell's 14.8 RPG as an example of poor rebounding. In what universe is that poor rebounding? Even in the 60s, 14.8 RPG would have been a damn good season average.

You're just so wrong on so many levels...
You don't even get what I'm saying, I'm not saying Russell was a bad defender, I'm just saying he couldn't stop Wilt. Everyone labels him as Wilt stopper and best defensive player of all times because of his presumed "winning" against Wilt, where infact he was owned by Wilt. Thats what I wrote in my previous post. Learn to read.

Where did you get these numbers? Basketball Reference, where they have 50% of stats since year 1964? Get out of here..

Russell is the most overrated player of all times. He was succesful because of bunch of hall of fame teammates and the best coach of those times.

Wilt and Russell played against each other 142 times in 10 years. Russell's team won 88, Wilt's teams won 74. (14 game difference)

In those games Wilt averaged 28.7 ppg and 28.7 rpg (so much for a "Wilt stopper")

Wilt's high game vs. Russell was 62, and he had six other 50+ point games against Russell . Russell's high game against Wilt was 37, and he had only two other 30+ point games against Wilt.

Wilt's record 55 rebound game was against Russell (Philadelphia Warriors vs. Boston Celtics, November 24, 1960), and he had six other 40+ rebound games vs. Bill.
Russell only had one 40+ rebound night against Wilt.

Wilt's teams lost all 4 seventh games against Russell's Celtics... (Russell's Celtics were 10-0 in game 7s during his career).

The total margin of defeat in those four 7th games was nine points

(begin the teammate argument because head-to-head is a no-contest)

Russell was limited offensively, Wilt limitless

playing the same role on the boards (i.e. primary rebounder except Wilt was also primary offense and Russell wasnt which means he should have been available for more o-boards to no avail) Chamberlain more or less swept him on rebounding titles (like 9 of the 11 seasons they were both active Wilt lead the league in rebounding).

passing? who was the only center in the history of the association to lead the league in assists?(and he almost did it twice) - not Bill Russell

Russel's intangibles were great no doubt but he had lots of hall of fame bound team-mates on a dynasty team run by the best coach/gm of his era running a system he fit into perfectly

ThuglifeJ
06-26-2014, 05:49 PM
Honestly..I thought Dwight was at one point. But he fell off that status a bit. In Orlando his D presence was immense. All time I'd go Ben Wallace , Mutumbo, Hakeem, and KG.

Shawn Bradley was probably the most fun to watch on D tho :)

Bruno
06-26-2014, 05:53 PM
Russell, Hakeem. Wallace/Wilt/Duncan/Mutombo next in whatever order floats your boat.

Bruno
06-26-2014, 05:59 PM
I don't think Wilt getting his against Russell discredits Russell as the GOAT defender. nobody in league history would stop a prime Wilt Chamberlain and offense always has the advantage of attacking first. defense is almost aways a reactionary ideal.

JasonJohnHorn
06-26-2014, 06:00 PM
My apologies for including Unseld and Eaton for those who didn't think they were worthy. I included Unseld because I knew some old-schoolers who sore he was the original Ben Wallace (I admittedly never saw him play).

As for Eaton.... I never thought of him as a great defender, but he was an amazing rim protector and just a huge body. He didn't have the skill that Hakeem, Russell, Mutumbo and Wallace had, but he had a physique unlike any other. 7'4 and a bulky? Most guys past 7'2 are too spindly (Bol, Bradley, Muereson) to be a force, but Eaton was just a wall of masculinity. when people talk about 'clogging the lane' it is Eaton they have in mind.

And he's got 2 DPOY awards, which is two more than 99.9% of the guys who have played in the NBA can say.

5.6 blocks a game in 34 minutes? That is CRAZY!!!!

Also... he has the greatest quote ever.... he has a streak of like 5 games where he shot 100% and when he was asked about not missing any shots for 5 games in a row (or how ever many it was), he said: I'd better hit them all. They were all dunks." BRILLIANT!!!

mightybosstone
06-26-2014, 06:01 PM
You don't even get what I'm saying, I'm not saying Russell was a bad defender, I'm just saying he couldn't stop Wilt. Everyone labels him as Wilt stopper and best defensive player of all times because of his presumed "winning" against Wilt, where infact he was owned by Wilt. Thats what I wrote in my previous post. Learn to read.
No sir. You used rebounds per game as the entire basis for your argument, which is a piss poor argument to begin with in any NBA discussion unless you're arguing rebounding. This is not a rebounding discussion at all.


Russell is the most overrated player of all times. He was succesful because of bunch of hall of fame teammates and the best coach of those times.

Wilt and Russell played against each other 142 times in 10 years. Russell's team won 88, Wilt's teams won 74. (14 game difference)

In those games Wilt averaged 28.7 ppg and 28.7 rpg (so much for a "Wilt stopper")

Wilt's high game vs. Russell was 62, and he had six other 50+ point games against Russell . Russell's high game against Wilt was 37, and he had only two other 30+ point games against Wilt.

Wilt's record 55 rebound game was against Russell (Philadelphia Warriors vs. Boston Celtics, November 24, 1960), and he had six other 40+ rebound games vs. Bill.
Russell only had one 40+ rebound night against Wilt.

Wilt's teams lost all 4 seventh games against Russell's Celtics... (Russell's Celtics were 10-0 in game 7s during his career).

The total margin of defeat in those four 7th games was nine points

(begin the teammate argument because head-to-head is a no-contest)

Russell was limited offensively, Wilt limitless

playing the same role on the boards (i.e. primary rebounder except Wilt was also primary offense and Russell wasnt which means he should have been available for more o-boards to no avail) Chamberlain more or less swept him on rebounding titles (like 9 of the 11 seasons they were both active Wilt lead the league in rebounding).

passing? who was the only center in the history of the association to lead the league in assists?(and he almost did it twice) - not Bill Russell

Russel's intangibles were great no doubt but he had lots of hall of fame bound team-mates on a dynasty team run by the best coach/gm of his era running a system he fit into perfectly
http://www.basketballforum.com/nba-history-aba-too/447088-bill-russell-vs-wilt-chamberlain.html

:laugh: I love it! You couldn't come up with the data yourself, so you just Googled it and regurgitated someone else's argument verbatim. That's a little sad, dude.

ohreally
06-26-2014, 06:07 PM
Hakeem probably, because his completely elite ability to control his teams defense with his ability to help and recover, essentially limiting not only his own man, but the entire other team.

I mean, how many centers could switch on a pick, keep a PG out of the lane, and recover to his man without the offense gaining any advantage at all, even when he was defending a little guy 22 feet from the rim?

Russell is a close, close 2nd for me, but Hakeem's overall athletic ability and impact on the entire offense his team was defending decides it for me.

Typo there, you said Hakeem and described Ewing. Nobody I've ever seen shut down the entire opposing team like Ewing did in 4th quarters. Nobody.

Minimal
06-26-2014, 06:09 PM
No sir. You used rebounds per game as the entire basis for your argument, which is a piss poor argument to begin with in any NBA discussion unless you're arguing rebounding. This is not a rebounding discussion at all.


http://www.basketballforum.com/nba-history-aba-too/447088-bill-russell-vs-wilt-chamberlain.html

:laugh: I love it! You couldn't come up with the data yourself, so you just Googled it and regurgitated someone else's argument verbatim. That's a little sad, dude.
Yeah I did because I'm not wasting my time writing 2 times the same thing.
Atleast you took your time to google the stats after miserably failing with basketball reference gj hf.

mightybosstone
06-26-2014, 06:15 PM
Yeah I did because I'm not wasting my time writing 2 times the same thing.
Atleast you took your time to google the stats after miserably failing with basketball reference gj hf.
This coming from the guy who started his argument by using RPG against a particular player as his entire justification for why that player wasn't a great defender. Those are some big statements for such a small mind. You should go back to arguing basketball in the kiddie pool with the other 14-year-old fans.

Minimal
06-26-2014, 06:26 PM
This coming from the guy who started his argument by using RPG against a particular player as his entire justification for why that player wasn't a great defender. Those are some big statements for such a small mind. You should go back to arguing basketball in the kiddie pool with the other 14-year-old fans.
Dude you are the one with the small mind who can't read and understand the combination of letters put in one sentence. For a moronic mind, I'll write it again. I used RPG and other stats to prove Wilt owned Russell where it all began, response to Chronz for saying Russell limited Wilt's game (the assumption of 95% of all nba fans).

Kashmir13579
06-26-2014, 06:55 PM
Yo, Stringer.. Where's Wallace?

mightybosstone
06-26-2014, 07:02 PM
Yo, Stringer.. Where's Wallace?

:laugh: I love The Wire so much. I finally got my fiancee to watch it with me and after we finished up Season 1, I walked around my apartment for days going "Stringer! Where Wallace at!?!?! Where's Wallace at, String!?!?!?" Deangleo Barksdale is easily one of my 4-5 favorite characters from that show.

JasonJohnHorn
06-26-2014, 07:04 PM
For the Ewing fans.... I'm sorry.... but 3 All-Defensive teams (all second team mind you) and ZERO DPOY awards stacked up next to what Hakeem and Mumtbo and Robinson did playing in the same era? Just in his days alone he isn't even top 3.... so....

DR_1
06-26-2014, 07:06 PM
Bill Russell easily.

ewing
06-26-2014, 07:41 PM
I was wondering the same thing. He's way up on the list for me.

Yeah, he only anchored the best defense in the league for a decade.

ewing
06-26-2014, 07:42 PM
For the Ewing fans.... I'm sorry.... but 3 All-Defensive teams (all second team mind you) and ZERO DPOY awards stacked up next to what Hakeem and Mumtbo and Robinson did playing in the same era? Just in his days alone he isn't even top 3.... so....


sounds like you have some real insight that you haven't read online.

todu82
06-26-2014, 09:38 PM
Hakeem.

ewing
06-26-2014, 10:23 PM
I don't feel like the Dream's team were great defensive teams and he had support on that end. If you put Otis, mad max, carl herrea type guys on the floor together i think you should be a dominate defensive team and although they had there moments i don't think Hakeem speared that many great defensive teams. If you are the greatest anchor ever your teams should be damn hard to score on.

ewing
06-26-2014, 10:25 PM
i think Deke was the best rim protector i've seen. I'm not sure who was best overall

ricky recon
06-26-2014, 11:21 PM
Well, it's a terrible answer. And what the hell is the point of posting on an Internet sports forum if you'r not going to discuss sports? :shrug:

That's what he thinks and nobody cares about analyzing everything all the time.

Chronz
06-27-2014, 02:05 AM
Ahaha, please. Bill Russell was a nobody against Wilt. Russell averaged 14.8 rebounds against Wilt (Bills career average 22.5), while Wilt averaged 28.7 rebounds against Bill. Hard to call him the best defensive center when his oposing center dominates him on the boards. Limited? Wilt averaged 28.7 PPG against Bill, and scored 40 or more points 26 times against Bill in his career.

Yes limited. Do you not know the definition of the word? Check the numbers, then check what he put up against everyone else.

I dont buy your rebounding averages either are they really that low? Ill check them later but its funny how you show us Russell's averages vs the NBA at large and then vs Wilt, but you wont do the same for Russell suppressing aka LIMITING Wilts scoring.

Saying he was a nobody is a level of ignorance you should never stoop to, and Im a HUGE Wilt supporter.

FYL_McVeezy
06-27-2014, 08:42 PM
The Dream.

Hawkeye15
06-27-2014, 08:52 PM
Typo there, you said Hakeem and described Ewing. Nobody I've ever seen shut down the entire opposing team like Ewing did in 4th quarters. Nobody.

Ewing was nowhere near the defender Dream was. Dream's athletic ability was so much better.

Hawkamania
06-27-2014, 09:01 PM
It has to be Bill Russell.

Shlumpledink
06-27-2014, 09:28 PM
Bill Russell is my vote for shotblocking, with Hakeem Olajuwon as greatest all around defender. Dikembe being the third best.

Shlumpledink
06-27-2014, 09:33 PM
i think Deke was the best rim protector i've seen. I'm not sure who was best overall

Phenomenal protector, he was downright nasty. His position defense, and rotations left a little to be desired. He wasn't quite the overall defender that Hakeem was, but he was certainly a better rim protector in my mind. Being 4 inches taller than Hakeem, he was certainly more intimidating, with superior reach.

Russell is probably the best shot blocker of all time, it is either he or KAJ that has the most blocked shots of all time, but we won't really know because that stat wasn't recorded then. KAJ doesn't get enough credit as a defensive player, but I don't think he is top 3. Him and D-Rob are duking it out for 4th, although I may give D-rob the edge

ohreally
06-27-2014, 09:40 PM
Ewing was nowhere near the defender Dream was. Dream's athletic ability was so much better.

Your rating of Hakeem as the best relied on saying he shut down the entire opposing team, but while he did go out to cover people at times, I remember him more as a rim protector. Ewing regularly covered the entire opposing team in 4th quarters, when he would pick up his D after saving himself a bit earlier in the game. He really did get called for a lot of fouls on D that centers playing on Texas teams ever did, not to mention having to put up with aggressive pushing on offense that he couldn't at all get away with on D.

The Knicks regularly won games in 4th quarters., and Ewing's D was the primary reason.

It's because this role was extended in the playoffs that Ewing was not matching up directly with Hakeem in the finals, since obviously Hakeem was too good to leave him on his own for extended periods of time.

Ewing is extremely underrated overall, but obviously, with being left off the list, with people ranking Mutombo ahead of him as a defender (much more to it than shot blocking) is just ignorant to the extreme. And I'll repeat, no center I've ever seen shut down the entire opposing team as well as Ewing did on a regular basis.

slashsnake
06-27-2014, 09:41 PM
Yeah, he only anchored the best defense in the league for a decade.

They weren't that great of a defense before Riley took over and they made some player moves.

And Jack Sikma I believe was the anchoring center for the best D of the 80's.. the Milwaukee Bucks. He isn't on my list of the top of his era either.

Hakeem in the finals, 27 points a game and shot 50% on Ewing. Ewing, 18 points and 36% shooting. Olajuwon faced Ewing 28 times in the regular season too and averaged over 50% shooting on him. Ewing was held to 45%.

What really stood out in the finals, was NY was constantly doubling Olajuwon. His shooters went cold, so they were matching him up with all sorts of guys (Oakley got a shot at him, Herb got shots at him, Charles Smith got some time with him) and the guards were coming down as well. On the other end, sure there were some doubles at time, but it was a much more one on one. And if you want to talk help D. Remember who was blocking a 3pt shot that could have won the series for NY. That's right, Hakeem was out there too.

Hakeem was a dominant defender, and passed the eye test. Help defense, foot speed, shot blocking, blocking out, challenging shots, he was just better. Ewing was more physical, I will give him that, but no he wasn't better.

ewing
06-27-2014, 09:45 PM
Phenomenal protector, he was downright nasty. His position defense, and rotations left a little to be desired. He wasn't quite the overall defender that Hakeem was, but he was certainly a better rim protector in my mind. Being 4 inches taller than Hakeem, he was certainly more intimidating, with superior reach.

Russell is probably the best shot blocker of all time, it is either he or KAJ that has the most blocked shots of all time, but we won't really know because that stat wasn't recorded then. KAJ doesn't get enough credit as a defensive player, but I don't think he is top 3. Him and D-Rob are duking it out for 4th, although I may give D-rob the edge


Robinson was a great defender. He was the most athletic true big i have ever seen, and he was smart, plus dude had an insane motor. Still I put a lot weight on anchoring a D for great bigs and in owning the paint. Robinson lacked some physicality in his game that i think would have put him over the top. In today's league where you need to rotate quickerb/c you cant hold and everyone can shoot I think Robinson would be by far the most dominate defensive center i have watched

ewing
06-27-2014, 09:48 PM
They weren't that great of a defense before Riley took over and they made some player moves.

And Jack Sikma I believe was the anchoring center for the best D of the 80's.. the Milwaukee Bucks. He isn't on my list of the top of his era either.

Hakeem in the finals, 27 points a game and shot 50% on Ewing. Ewing, 18 points and 36% shooting. Olajuwon faced Ewing 28 times in the regular season too and averaged over 50% shooting on him. Ewing was held to 45%.

What really stood out in the finals, was NY was constantly doubling Olajuwon. His shooters went cold, so they were matching him up with all sorts of guys (Oakley got a shot at him, Herb got shots at him, Charles Smith got some time with him) and the guards were coming down as well. On the other end, sure there were some doubles at time, but it was a much more one on one. And if you want to talk help D. Remember who was blocking a 3pt shot that could have won the series for NY. That's right, Hakeem was out there too.

Hakeem was a dominant defender, and passed the eye test. Help defense, foot speed, shot blocking, blocking out, challenging shots, he was just better. Ewing was more physical, I will give him that, but no he wasn't better.


Hakeem was a better offensive player. Patrick would have had an easier time defending Patrick too.

ewing
06-27-2014, 10:05 PM
Ewing was nowhere near the defender Dream was. Dream's athletic ability was so much better.

He was faster and jumped higher. If he blitzed screen roll out to mid court and then recovered and consistently rotated out to shooters at the 3 point line he would have passed out 2nd quarter.

alexander_37
06-27-2014, 10:33 PM
Hakeem
Russell
Wallace maybe

Hawkeye15
06-27-2014, 10:34 PM
Your rating of Hakeem as the best relied on saying he shut down the entire opposing team, but while he did go out to cover people at times, I remember him more as a rim protector. Ewing regularly covered the entire opposing team in 4th quarters, when he would pick up his D after saving himself a bit earlier in the game. He really did get called for a lot of fouls on D that centers playing on Texas teams ever did, not to mention having to put up with aggressive pushing on offense that he couldn't at all get away with on D.

The Knicks regularly won games in 4th quarters., and Ewing's D was the primary reason.

It's because this role was extended in the playoffs that Ewing was not matching up directly with Hakeem in the finals, since obviously Hakeem was too good to leave him on his own for extended periods of time.

Ewing is extremely underrated overall, but obviously, with being left off the list, with people ranking Mutombo ahead of him as a defender (much more to it than shot blocking) is just ignorant to the extreme. And I'll repeat, no center I've ever seen shut down the entire opposing team as well as Ewing did on a regular basis.

Then you simply remember it wrong. Ewing was an underrated defender, meaning, he was a very good one (show me a G-Town product that wasn't at that position), but he was nowhere near the same level as many mentioned here. He also played with elite perimeter defenders when his peak was underway, so he was free to kind of roam the paint and even step outside at times.

alexander_37
06-27-2014, 10:35 PM
Robinson was a great defender. He was the most athletic true big i have ever seen, and he was smart, plus dude had an insane motor. Still I put a lot weight on anchoring a D for great bigs and in owning the paint. Robinson lacked some physicality in his game that i think would have put him over the top. In today's league where you need to rotate quickerb/c you cant hold and everyone can shoot I think Robinson would be by far the most dominate defensive center i have watched

And Hakeem roasted him for over 40 points 3 times in one series with another 2 games over 35 points. He literally averaged 40 points Vs. Robinson in 5 games of one series.

Hawkeye15
06-27-2014, 10:35 PM
He was faster and jumped higher. If he blitzed screen roll out to mid court and then recovered and consistently rotated out to shooters at the 3 point line he would have passed out 2nd quarter.

you know I respect you, but what is your point?

Dream was able to do things others couldn't. And he did them all the time.

slashsnake
06-27-2014, 11:48 PM
Hakeem was a better offensive player. Patrick would have had an easier time defending Patrick too.

Yes but Hakeem shut Ewing down well below his averages, Patrick, not so much, Hakeem was a 27 PPG guy in the regular season and a 27 PPG guy against Ewing. Ewing was a 24.5 PPG guy in the regular season and a 18 point a game guy vs. Hakeem that year. When it mattered, when everything was on the line, Hakeem just destroyed Patrick on D, and made the series saving shot block on John Starks out at the 3 pt line.

Now we know Ewing had the better defensive team with him. Starks, Mason, Harper, Oakley, Buck Williams even were all on all defensive teams in their career. Xman, Childs, Ward, Doug Christie, Doc Rivers, Larry Johnson, all were known as good or gritty defenders... And who did Houston have when they were winning championships? You could argue Robert Horry was their 2nd best defender during that run. He wasn't a bad defender when he was young, but he was no Charles Oakley.


But look at these if you are concerned about the level of offense each of them had head to head, here's your next 5 best offensive centers of the 90's.

Robinson:
23 points 51% shooting vs. Ewing
19.6 points 49% shooting vs. Olajuwon

O'Neal
28.7 points, 54% shooting vs. Ewing
22 points, 54% shooting vs. Olajuwon

Daugherty
18.2 PPG, 53% vs. Ewing
16.5 PPG, 48% vs. Olajuwon

Smits
13.3 PPG 50% shooting vs. Ewing
11 PPG 50% shooting vs. Olajuwon

Mourning
21PPG and 46% vs. Ewing
15.5 PPG and 48% vs. Olajuwon

Fact is Olajuwon was better. He was deservedly the defensive MVP twice. He was deservedly a 9 time all defensive team player. No one turned away more shots than him. He's top 10 all time in steals and the only center in the top 50. He's 1st all time in the playoffs among centers in steals and 3rd all time (ahead of Ewing) in blocks despite not having a huge advantage there in games played. I know there's holes with the advanced stats, but he's ahead of Ewing on defensive rating and defensive win shares.

I liked Ewing more. I liked their toughness. My brother was a bulls fan so I cheered for the Knicks every season my Heat and Magic weren't around (nearly all of them at the time). Starks was one of my absolute favorite players as a kid and I was PISSED he had that shot blocked in game 6 because I was sure that one was going to go down, he was on fire that game. I hated Charles Smith like every other Knick fan. I loved Mason running that point forward. I thought that frontcourt when they'd put in Mason, Oakley, and Ewing was the scariest thing there was in basketball. I don't have Olajuwon as my screen name. He was amazing, but as a fan, I liked other guys more and one of them was Ewing. But I do know that Ewing wasn't as good as him defensively. Don't need all the numbers to say it (though they do), you just watched them and saw that. Ewing didn't shut down guys like Olajuwon did. Ewing was a great defender, key part of a great defensive team, but he wasn't as good on D as Olajuwon.

I usually don't talk a lot on here about the guys I follow and cheer for, my own homer teams, because what you will see again and again is 20 guys not a fan of either picking one guy, and the guy who spent 15 years cheering on the other player picking him. I've caught myself doing the same and in this case, no offense, but I think your being a fan of Ewing makes you a bit jaded on your views here.

slashsnake
06-28-2014, 12:02 AM
He was faster and jumped higher. If he blitzed screen roll out to mid court and then recovered and consistently rotated out to shooters at the 3 point line he would have passed out 2nd quarter.

What??? He did that! Except instead of diving back to the lane to recover, he had the skill to guard the guard as well. Who did you watch in the 90's because it certainly wasn't Hakeem? When you think of a center switching on a pick and roll, and covering the guard, Hakeem is the one who first comes to mind all time. He'd dive down too, especially when the matchup on the switch included a dominant center underneath, but it seemed like at least once a game he'd end up on the perimeter guarding someone and snagging a steal out there.


Come on now.. Saying that is like trying to write revisionist history and say that the 90's Pistons and Knicks were the two softest teams in the history of the NBA. It is that off when you resort to saying something along those lines.

ewing
06-28-2014, 07:33 AM
And Hakeem roasted him for over 40 points 3 times in one series with another 2 games over 35 points. He literally averaged 40 points Vs. Robinson in 5 games of one series.

when Hakeem or Micheal Jordan or Larry Bird score a bunch of points shows nothing other then that they are great offensive players. OMG, Larry Bird up Dennis Rodman the other night he can't defend. See how stupid that sounds

ewing
06-28-2014, 07:37 AM
you know I respect you, but what is your point?

Dream was able to do things others couldn't. And he did them all the time.


Being more athletic doesn't make you a better defender.

alexander_37
06-28-2014, 07:37 AM
when Hakeem or Micheal Jordan or Larry Bird score a bunch of points shows nothing other then that they are great offensive players. OMG, Larry Bird up Dennis Rodman the other night he can't defend. See how stupid that sounds
No it really isn't show me anothet post player who did that to hakeem or another all time great for that matter. It doesnt happen.

cahawk
06-28-2014, 05:52 PM
Wilt
Russel
Kareem

slashsnake
06-28-2014, 10:30 PM
Being more athletic doesn't make you a better defender.

Nope being a better defender does, and basically anyone watching those two who wasn't in front of the TV wearing a Ewing jersey agreed.

I have a tough time calling Ewing a top 10 defensive center ever. Above Russell, Olajuwon, Wallace, Mourning, Kareem, Dikembe, Eaton, Howard, Thurmond, Camby, Walton (shorter career, but MUCH better in his prime), and Wilt? I have a hard time saying Ewing was clearly better than any of those guys defensively and an easier time saying he wasn't on their level. And he certainly isn't top 5.

13 seems fair for him. I'd be ok in that 7-17 range. But beyond that, you've got to either be a huge Ewing fan or crazy.

NBA_Starter
06-28-2014, 10:57 PM
Bill

Jint.
06-28-2014, 11:06 PM
The Dream

Chronz
06-28-2014, 11:35 PM
Yes but Hakeem shut Ewing down well below his averages, Patrick, not so much, Hakeem was a 27 PPG guy in the regular season and a 27 PPG guy against Ewing. Ewing was a 24.5 PPG guy in the regular season and a 18 point a game guy vs. Hakeem that year. When it mattered, when everything was on the line, Hakeem just destroyed Patrick on D, and made the series saving shot block on John Starks out at the 3 pt line.

Now we know Ewing had the better defensive team with him. Starks, Mason, Harper, Oakley, Buck Williams even were all on all defensive teams in their career. Xman, Childs, Ward, Doug Christie, Doc Rivers, Larry Johnson, all were known as good or gritty defenders... And who did Houston have when they were winning championships? You could argue Robert Horry was their 2nd best defender during that run. He wasn't a bad defender when he was young, but he was no Charles Oakley.


But look at these if you are concerned about the level of offense each of them had head to head, here's your next 5 best offensive centers of the 90's.

Robinson:
23 points 51% shooting vs. Ewing
19.6 points 49% shooting vs. Olajuwon

O'Neal
28.7 points, 54% shooting vs. Ewing
22 points, 54% shooting vs. Olajuwon

Daugherty
18.2 PPG, 53% vs. Ewing
16.5 PPG, 48% vs. Olajuwon

Smits
13.3 PPG 50% shooting vs. Ewing
11 PPG 50% shooting vs. Olajuwon

Mourning
21PPG and 46% vs. Ewing
15.5 PPG and 48% vs. Olajuwon

Fact is Olajuwon was better. He was deservedly the defensive MVP twice. He was deservedly a 9 time all defensive team player. No one turned away more shots than him. He's top 10 all time in steals and the only center in the top 50. He's 1st all time in the playoffs among centers in steals and 3rd all time (ahead of Ewing) in blocks despite not having a huge advantage there in games played. I know there's holes with the advanced stats, but he's ahead of Ewing on defensive rating and defensive win shares.

I liked Ewing more. I liked their toughness. My brother was a bulls fan so I cheered for the Knicks every season my Heat and Magic weren't around (nearly all of them at the time). Starks was one of my absolute favorite players as a kid and I was PISSED he had that shot blocked in game 6 because I was sure that one was going to go down, he was on fire that game. I hated Charles Smith like every other Knick fan. I loved Mason running that point forward. I thought that frontcourt when they'd put in Mason, Oakley, and Ewing was the scariest thing there was in basketball. I don't have Olajuwon as my screen name. He was amazing, but as a fan, I liked other guys more and one of them was Ewing. But I do know that Ewing wasn't as good as him defensively. Don't need all the numbers to say it (though they do), you just watched them and saw that. Ewing didn't shut down guys like Olajuwon did. Ewing was a great defender, key part of a great defensive team, but he wasn't as good on D as Olajuwon.

I usually don't talk a lot on here about the guys I follow and cheer for, my own homer teams, because what you will see again and again is 20 guys not a fan of either picking one guy, and the guy who spent 15 years cheering on the other player picking him. I've caught myself doing the same and in this case, no offense, but I think your being a fan of Ewing makes you a bit jaded on your views here.

Interesting post, I always had mixed feelings about Dreams individual D, I remember him getting roasted by the likes of Stanley Roberts 1 on 1 and his own coach mentioning it as a short coming but then I remember the Finals and he D'd up Shaq better than anyone else in the league IIRC. Its possible he improved in that area as he became less able to help out at will, similar to Ben Wallace when he was declining.

slashsnake
06-29-2014, 12:03 AM
Interesting post, I always had mixed feelings about Dreams individual D, I remember him getting roasted by the likes of Stanley Roberts 1 on 1 and his own coach mentioning it as a short coming but then I remember the Finals and he D'd up Shaq better than anyone else in the league IIRC. Its possible he improved in that area as he became less able to help out at will, similar to Ben Wallace when he was declining.


Interesting. I hadn't heard about Roberts, just pulled up their head to head. All I remember is the trade and that the guy was HUGE... 350 lbs it seemed. So I can see him backing down whomever he wanted.

And that his agreeing to go to the Clippers is what stopped the Olajuwon for Vaught/Danny Manning to the clips trade that was being talked about. Again, I can't say he was or wasn't dominated in the post, but Roberts didn't seem to be much of a factor there.


Roberts averaged just under 9 points on him a game in the regular season and 11.4 in their playoff meetings (hakeem averaged 15 boards, 2 steals, and 6 blocks in those playoff matchups too so he was doing things on D)

So basically that post-season he averaged his season average (down though from the 13 a game he averaged the 2nd half of the year there) on a slightly lower FG%. 11 out of their 18 head to heads, Stanley scored in single digits. His best game was a 21 point effort in a regular season houston blowout Hakeem played just 30 minutes in. 13, 17, 0, 20, 7 were his points scored in that playoff series, so I don't see him having any consistent "roasting" there.

SILVER SEAVER
06-29-2014, 12:22 AM
The Dream was the best center both offensively and defensively. What Chamberlain and Russell did in the era was dominating but basically they were it. The minute the league got players over from the ABA the talent pool was deeper. Olajuwon played in the era of the center and dominated every single one of them both offensively and defensively. He owned Robinson, Ewing, Mourning, Mutombo and Shaq in his earlier years. It would have been cool to see how The Dream would have done against the Shaq of 2000-2001 but we'll never know. Dream had good footwork and was quick. None of the greats could score on him with much success.

FlashBolt
06-29-2014, 12:27 AM
Hakeem Olajuwon IMO is the best center in NBA history. Did everything well. Could pass, rebound, post up, mid range, steals, blocks, defend. Just a skilled center in every aspect of the game.

CoaChad
06-29-2014, 04:13 AM
It comes down to Hakeem and Dikembe....but if we are talking straight defense...then Mt. Mutumbo has to be the choice.

Long, strong and athletic Mutombo was a defensive prescence in the league for a decade. Led the league in blocks 5 times and rebounds twice and is second overall in NBA history in career blocks. I realize that Hakeem is number one in blocks, but I believe he had more around him in Houston....Mutombo was all alone in Denver.

4x DPOY
3 x All-Defensive First Team
3 x All-Defensive Second Team.

cahawk
06-29-2014, 04:28 AM
Wilt & Russell
Blocked shot stats & defensive player of the year did not exist then or they would rule.
Wilt by far the greatest rebounder ever, & would be 1 or 2 in blocked shots alltime.
Watch highlights of Wilt blocking Kareem's skyhooks...who else did that?
His offensive stats just overshadow his defensive stats & Russell for his size best defender ever.

FlashBolt
06-29-2014, 05:27 AM
Wilt & Russell
Blocked shot stats & defensive player of the year did not exist then or they would rule.
Wilt by far the greatest rebounder ever, & would be 1 or 2 in blocked shots alltime.
Watch highlights of Wilt blocking Kareem's skyhooks...who else did that?
His offensive stats just overshadow his defensive stats & Russell for his size best defender ever.

While I don't remember who, that shot has been blocked by someone other than Wilt. Think it was a playoff game, not sure. My uncle has the replay. Judging the competition and lack thereof, you have to consider that these two were overrated in a sense. I mean Bill Russell's defense does not look better than Hakeem's by any means. Bill was a poor man's Howard. Very overrated, tbh. Dude had no offensive moves and only rebounded/defended against small lineups (yes, small. asides for him and Wilt, there were only 2 other players above 6"8 at one point in the league). Not to mention there were 8 teams and only 14 teams by the end of Russell's career. I mean George Yardley was the best player in Russell's rookie year.

Nick O
06-29-2014, 04:20 PM
tough.. Hakeem, Wallace, Mutumbo .. It's probably Hakeem but imma give it to Wallace because he never gets the love.

Shlumpledink
06-30-2014, 06:17 PM
Wilt & Russell
Blocked shot stats & defensive player of the year did not exist then or they would rule.
Wilt by far the greatest rebounder ever, & would be 1 or 2 in blocked shots alltime.
Watch highlights of Wilt blocking Kareem's skyhooks...who else did that?
His offensive stats just overshadow his defensive stats & Russell for his size best defender ever.

Hakeem did. I believe in the playoffs as well. Granted this was old Kareem, but the skyhook was still nearly unblockable.

Shlumpledink
06-30-2014, 06:19 PM
Yes but Hakeem shut Ewing down well below his averages, Patrick, not so much, Hakeem was a 27 PPG guy in the regular season and a 27 PPG guy against Ewing. Ewing was a 24.5 PPG guy in the regular season and a 18 point a game guy vs. Hakeem that year. When it mattered, when everything was on the line, Hakeem just destroyed Patrick on D, and made the series saving shot block on John Starks out at the 3 pt line.

Now we know Ewing had the better defensive team with him. Starks, Mason, Harper, Oakley, Buck Williams even were all on all defensive teams in their career. Xman, Childs, Ward, Doug Christie, Doc Rivers, Larry Johnson, all were known as good or gritty defenders... And who did Houston have when they were winning championships? You could argue Robert Horry was their 2nd best defender during that run. He wasn't a bad defender when he was young, but he was no Charles Oakley.


But look at these if you are concerned about the level of offense each of them had head to head, here's your next 5 best offensive centers of the 90's.

Robinson:
23 points 51% shooting vs. Ewing
19.6 points 49% shooting vs. Olajuwon

O'Neal
28.7 points, 54% shooting vs. Ewing
22 points, 54% shooting vs. Olajuwon

Daugherty
18.2 PPG, 53% vs. Ewing
16.5 PPG, 48% vs. Olajuwon

Smits
13.3 PPG 50% shooting vs. Ewing
11 PPG 50% shooting vs. Olajuwon

Mourning
21PPG and 46% vs. Ewing
15.5 PPG and 48% vs. Olajuwon

Fact is Olajuwon was better. He was deservedly the defensive MVP twice. He was deservedly a 9 time all defensive team player. No one turned away more shots than him. He's top 10 all time in steals and the only center in the top 50. He's 1st all time in the playoffs among centers in steals and 3rd all time (ahead of Ewing) in blocks despite not having a huge advantage there in games played. I know there's holes with the advanced stats, but he's ahead of Ewing on defensive rating and defensive win shares.

I liked Ewing more. I liked their toughness. My brother was a bulls fan so I cheered for the Knicks every season my Heat and Magic weren't around (nearly all of them at the time). Starks was one of my absolute favorite players as a kid and I was PISSED he had that shot blocked in game 6 because I was sure that one was going to go down, he was on fire that game. I hated Charles Smith like every other Knick fan. I loved Mason running that point forward. I thought that frontcourt when they'd put in Mason, Oakley, and Ewing was the scariest thing there was in basketball. I don't have Olajuwon as my screen name. He was amazing, but as a fan, I liked other guys more and one of them was Ewing. But I do know that Ewing wasn't as good as him defensively. Don't need all the numbers to say it (though they do), you just watched them and saw that. Ewing didn't shut down guys like Olajuwon did. Ewing was a great defender, key part of a great defensive team, but he wasn't as good on D as Olajuwon.

I usually don't talk a lot on here about the guys I follow and cheer for, my own homer teams, because what you will see again and again is 20 guys not a fan of either picking one guy, and the guy who spent 15 years cheering on the other player picking him. I've caught myself doing the same and in this case, no offense, but I think your being a fan of Ewing makes you a bit jaded on your views here.

Wonderful post

RB#20
06-30-2014, 07:53 PM
Had to go with Dream here. I think Bill would be more of a PF in today's NBA but even if he is not, Dream for me. Hakeem could be the greatest Center of all-time. It's probably the hardest position to pick GOAT out of any professional sport. Olajuwon destroyed the greatest Centers, in the era where you had the greatest and deepest group of Centers in league history.

RB#20
06-30-2014, 07:58 PM
And when you create "Greatest defensive SG of all time" PLEASE don't forget to include Michael Cooper! Dude was a ****ing beast on D. All that I ask, unless you made the thread already. Thanks :)

ManInBlue
06-30-2014, 11:35 PM
It comes down in between Hakeem, Ben Wallace and Bill Russell. Bill Russell was the best defensive center of his era. It is hard to compare him to the modern big men as the game has changed a lot since 1960s.

Hakeem gets the nod for me because he defended and got the best out of some of the best centers to ever play the game. He had to deal with Kareem, Shaq, David Robinson, Ewing, Moses Malone, etc. Ben Wallace comes pretty close as he was a ferocious defender and rim protector. He managed to slow Shaq down in 2004 finals which helped Pistons win the championship. And also he was one of the best help defenders I have ever seen.

FlashBolt
07-01-2014, 12:10 AM
Man, Ben Wallace at his prime was fcking insane.. The original and better DeAndre Jordan..

bagwell368
07-01-2014, 07:02 PM
Hakeem Olajuwon IMO is the best center in NBA history. Did everything well. Could pass, rebound, post up, mid range, steals, blocks, defend. Just a skilled center in every aspect of the game.

Seen them all since the prime of Wilt and later days of Bill - Hakeem is the best all around C and best defensive C too.

slashsnake
07-01-2014, 07:29 PM
Man, Ben Wallace at his prime was fcking insane.. The original and better DeAndre Jordan..

He was excellent. What does that say about Shaq though to see that he got his vs. Hakeem, Dikembe, and Ben Wallace? His team didn't win all those series, but he played very well against three guys that are all considered top 10 (top 5?) defensive centers.

29-13-6.5 on 60% shooting against Hakeem before Shaq hit his prime
33-16-5 on 57% shooting against Dikembe while Shaq was in his prime
27-11 on 63% shooting against Ben Wallace on his way out of his prime. I can't think of many guys ever that could have had a 36 point 20 board game against him when he was in his prime.

FlashBolt
07-01-2014, 07:33 PM
He was excellent. What does that say about Shaq though to see that he got his vs. Hakeem, Dikembe, and Ben Wallace? His team didn't win all those series, but he played very well against three guys that are all considered top 10 (top 5?) defensive centers.

29-13-6.5 on 60% shooting against Hakeem before Shaq hit his prime
33-16-5 on 57% shooting against Dikembe while Shaq was in his prime
27-11 on 63% shooting against Ben Wallace on his way out of his prime. I can't think of many guys ever that could have had a 36 point 20 board game against him when he was in his prime.

No doubt, no one could stop Shaq in his prime. Hakeem got the best of rookie Shaq - who still played very well against Hakeem. Shaq in his prime was just amazing. I began watching basketball because of Shaq and I really miss the presence of a dominating center who could destroy just about anyone out there. He wasn't very skilled but physically he was just unstoppable.

JNA17
07-01-2014, 07:37 PM
Really really tough.

Hakeem and Ben Wallace were capable of shutting down their opponents completely.

I guess I would go with Hakeem with Ben Wallace being a VERY close second. Wallace I think might have been better at guarding multiple positions considering his 6'9 hight but very athletic and physical weight.

JNA17
07-01-2014, 07:43 PM
And when you create "Greatest defensive SG of all time" PLEASE don't forget to include Michael Cooper! Dude was a ****ing beast on D. All that I ask, unless you made the thread already. Thanks :)

I think that thread would be a lot more interesting than this since here, you could pick pretty much anybody (except that one person that said Tyson Chandler lol).

Mine would probably go something like:

PG: Gary Payton
SG: Michael Cooper
SF: Scottie Pippen
PF: Ben Wallace (I know he was a center but he's just as capable of PF anyway)
C: Hakeem

Goddamn what a team that would be! That team would prevent teams from scoring about 80 points a game while capable of scoring over 105 points lol.