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ManRam
06-25-2014, 10:06 AM
Voting for the #1 player of all time has concluded. The winner is...

Michael Jordan

30.1 PPG | 6.2 RPG | 5.3 AST | 0.7 BPG | .497% FG | 27.9 PER | 214.0 WS

Achievements:

14 time All-Star
6 NBA Championships
'85 Rookie Of The Year
5 Time MVP
6 Time Finals MVP
3 Time All-Star Game MVP
'88 Defensive Player of the Year
10 Time All-NBA First Teamer
1 Time All-NBA Second Teamer
9 Time All-Defensive First Teamer
Led the League in scoring 10 times
Led the League in steals 3 times
Led the League in PER 8 times


Voting:


Michael Jordan = 66 votes
LeBron James = 10 votes
Kobe Bryant = 4 votes
Wilt Chamberlain = 3 votes
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar = 1 vote
Magic Johnson = 1 vote
Shaquille O'Neal = 1 vote
Larry Bird = 0 votes
Tim Duncan = 0 votes
Hakeem Olajuwon = 0 votes
Oscar Robertson 0 votes
Bill Russell = 0 votes

The List:

1. Michael Jordan (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?868731-PSD-s-Official-1-Player-of-All-Time)


---------------------------

Please vote, explain AND nominate someone else to add to the future polling choices.

Moses Malone has been added to the poll.

(If a mod would like to stick this, go ahead! If not, whatever...)

Greet
06-25-2014, 10:15 AM
This vote is between Russell, KAJ and Magic. I'm just going to have to go with Russell here. 11 championships, 5 MVPs, averaged 16/24.9 in the playoffs. That's just ridiculous.

lincecum=future
06-25-2014, 10:19 AM
I'd go with KAJ

akia83
06-25-2014, 11:10 AM
Wilt here for the 2nd time. When everybody say "Wilt doesn't count cause he was unfairly stronger, faster...". Does Jordan deserve more because he's more human? Sure
Does Jordan dominated more than Wilt? Hell no, and don't bring the ring argument, nobody can win alone.

That's funny when you hear "Durant beats the Jordan's streak of 25 points.." or "K.Love beats the Moses Malone streak", Wilt isn't even mentioned. It was another time for sure, but what does he need to do to be considered the best? Score 70 points a game with 40 boards while being triple-teamed in every possession?

He doesn't have a lot of ships, because the Celtics were a better team. But he was by far the better player.
He lost a bunch of game 7, and he is just 15-21 versus Russell in the Playoff, the domination wasn't as big as the 11 titles to 2 seem to show.

If you want to make a thread about the best team ever, go ahead with those Celtics, or the Bulls . As far as the best player is concerned, it has to be Wilt.

InRoseWeTrust
06-25-2014, 11:16 AM
I've always felt Hakeem is the second best player ever to play the game. Probably not a popular choice, but I have to go with the Dream.

ManRam
06-25-2014, 11:19 AM
I maintain that Russell is more or less the most overrated player ever. I hate throwing buzz words like that around, but yeah. I'll get to that when he's actually a viable threat. I don't think he'll get the votes here at 2.

I like KAJ here pretty convincingly. His accolades, team success, numbers, etc. are just all too strong. Yes, he played with Magic for a large portion of his career and Oscar early on, but his first ring w/ the Bucks he was far and away "the guy" and Oscar was passed his prime (not to mention that he never won in his prime on his "own"). He was still significantly better than Magic for the earlier parts of their time together, as well. Yes, Magic got the bulk of those Finals MVPs, but I can't take a lot credit away from him for that. He was just older, and Magic was fully in his prime. Flip that around and KAJ is easily winning those Finals MVPs himself. He was better in his prime than Magic, and his prime lasted a bit longer.

19 all star games. 6 MVPs. 2 Finals MVPs. 6 rings. 2nd all time in win shares. most minutes ever played. countless all-NBA and all-defense awards. the guy mixes peak dominance with longevity better than anyone in the league. he's been a scoring champ, a rebound champ, a block champ. he lead the league in PER and WS 9 times. he was efficient. he was a great defender.

Mix stats, success, accolades and longevity and he's a clear #2 in my opinion. There are a few things to nitpick, like 2 Finals MVPs in 6 Wins, but I kinda touched upon that and I think the rest aren't terribly significant.

Phenomenonsense
06-25-2014, 11:24 AM
I'm going with Shaq based off of nothing more than my eye test. I probably have rose-colored glasses, and I would probably have voted Wilt if I ever had a chance to see him play, but when I was growing up and starting to like basketball, Shaq was the most dominant force I'd ever seen. Always loved everything he did on the court.

Mile High Champ
06-25-2014, 11:55 AM
Went with Bird here. I was tempted to go with one of the big centers of all time in Hakeem or Kareem but ended up going against the grain a bit. Larry was the dominant star of the 80`s, won the 3 titles and 3 mvp`s while being one of the league greatest scorers of all time. Half the guys in the poll have a case to go here at number 2 as this is always where the discussion gets interesting.

ManningToTyree
06-25-2014, 12:37 PM
Magic

Lucky.
06-25-2014, 12:44 PM
Voted: Kareem
Nominate: David Robinson

Minimal
06-25-2014, 01:48 PM
The most dominant and unstoppable player of all times - Wilt Chamberlain, my vote goes to him

Interesting fact:
In 1964-1965 season the lane was widened from 12 to 16 feet, change primarily attributed to the dominance of Wilt Chamberlain. However it didn't affect Wilt Chamberlain at all.

tredigs
06-25-2014, 02:13 PM
^ They made it a rule that you could not dunk in college ball while Kareem was at UCLA (then rescinded it once he left), so he just developed the best shot in NBA history instead.

savvy1803
06-25-2014, 06:41 PM
Kareem for me .

Bruno
06-25-2014, 06:50 PM
Wilt, the only other player with a legitimate claim at #2 is Kareem.

I really hope PSD breaks away from traditional/mainstream opinion which considers both Magic and Bird top five. they both had short careers, weren't impact players on defense and neither deserve to be ahead of most of the leagues greatest bigmen.

tredigs
06-25-2014, 07:19 PM
Wilt, the only other player with a legitimate claim at #2 is Kareem.

I really hope PSD breaks away from traditional/mainstream opinion which considers both Magic and Bird top five. they both had short careers, weren't impact players on defense and neither deserve to be ahead of most of the leagues greatest bigmen.

You can't say Bird was just ''not an impact player defensively'', c'mon Bruno. Super tough/smart defender with incredibly quick hands (always averaged over 1.5 stls and around 1 block) who would also jump in and fight for the defensive board (and as arguably the top rebounding SF superstar ever, generally got it) - which is a huge aspect of closing out a defensive sequence. 1v1 you could not call him elite, but on the whole he was very much +defender. Statistically, he led the league in D win shares a # of times and was on multiple all defensive teams. Between his rebounding/passing/defense/scoring, he is probably only behind Lebron in terms of impact on all ends of the court from the forward position.

Anyway, glad to see Kareem taking this. Wilt likely has him beat as an individual talent in his prime (probably not by much), but KAJ's peak is top 5 All Time, his career + accolades are imo #1 All Time, and by comparison the # of seasons he was an elite player (ALL NBA and top 5 in MVP voting from 69-70 to 85-86) is 3 years longer than Wilt's full career. If Kareem began to fade 3 years before he did, it would be a more interesting debate for me.

Bruno
06-25-2014, 07:28 PM
You can't say Bird was just ''not an impact player defensively'', c'mon Bruno. Super tough/smart defender with incredibly quick hands (always averaged over 1.5 stls and around 1 block) who would also jump in and fight for the defensive board - which is a huge aspect of closing out a defensive sequence. 1v1 you could not call him elite, but on the whole he was very much +defender. Statistically, he led the league in D win shares a # of times and was on multiple all defensive teams. Between his rebounding/passing/defense/scoring, he is probably only behind Lebron in terms of impact on all ends of the court from the forward position.

Agreed, although were not talking about SFs were talking about everyone .^ that doesn't mean he had the defensive impact that the greatest post anchors in NBA history have had. guys who were also just as dominant, if not more dominant on offense.

at least legend has a few defensive teams to his title, that can't be said for Magic. Bird at least managed to squeeze himself onto a few defensive second teams (3 times).

the average NBA fans gets starry eyed when they think about Magic and Bird. they totally ignore the fact that neither impacted the game on the defensive end in the way a legitimate post anchor can, or dominant wing defender can. you combine that with the fact that both of them had short careers. sorry, the history of the league is too damn stacked with talent to just ignore those two realities when putting together an all time list.

I shouldn't be lumping Larry in with Magic by saying neither are impact players on defense but there's zero way to argue that Bird had the defensive impact that the leagues best centers have had.

big men get disrespected in favor of flash. nothing new, i just disagree with it.

amos1er
06-25-2014, 07:38 PM
Either Magic or Kareem is the correct answer here. I went with Magic, but that's just personal preference. Kareem is a very acceptable answer as well.

amos1er
06-25-2014, 07:43 PM
How in the **** does Lebron James get more votes than Magic Johnson... LMAO. There should seriously be an age limit to vote in these things just like in elections. :facepalm:

And you all wonder why most of the basketball fanbase in the free world can't stand his fans. Now you understand why I say he is overrated. Voting Lebron James as the second best player in the NBA of All-Time over Magic and Kareem is blatantly overrating him. You don't see this kind of garbage from Kobe fans on nearly this high of a scale. Just even more proof as to what I am talking about and why you all make us despise the guy even though he is a very gifted player and a good guy at heart. Lebron fans are truly the most obnoxious loathsome fans in the NBA by far. If you all just toned down the bandwagon a bit, you would be a lot better received.

JordansBulls
06-25-2014, 07:47 PM
This comes down to Kareem and Russell for me and in the first thread they were neck and neck for most first place votes with Russell with 6 votes and Kareem 5 votes.

Russell dominated in his time defensively, but Kareem dominated both ends of the floor. Russell won more and Kareem had better numbers, but overall Kareem had the stats, accolades, productively and rings as well.


Russell and Jordan in my opinion won the title everytime they were surrounded by enough talent that someone considered the greatest ever should win a title. Jabbar was surrouned by a very good Bucks team in 73 and failed to even make it past the Warriors. In 81 surrounded by a great Laker team he lost to the Rockets a team below .500. In 83 surrounded by a great Laker team he was swept by the 76ers when the Lakers were a championship team and won the title the season before. I couldn't see this happening to Russell or Jordan.



Vote: Russell

For Nomination I am going with Julius Erving.

amos1er
06-25-2014, 07:53 PM
Agreed, although were not talking about SFs were talking about everyone .^ that doesn't mean he had the defensive impact that the greatest post anchors in NBA history have had. guys who were also just as dominant, if not more dominant on offense.

at least legend has a few defensive teams to his title, that can't be said for Magic. Bird at least managed to squeeze himself onto a few defensive second teams (3 times).

the average NBA fans gets starry eyed when they think about Magic and Bird. they totally ignore the fact that neither impacted the game on the defensive end in the way a legitimate post anchor can, or dominant wing defender can. you combine that with the fact that both of them had short careers. sorry, the history of the league is too damn stacked with talent to just ignore those two realities when putting together an all time list.

I shouldn't be lumping Larry in with Magic by saying neither are impact players on defense but there's zero way to argue that Bird had the defensive impact that the leagues best centers have had.

big men get disrespected in favor of flash. nothing new, i just disagree with it.

I don't think they get disrespected all that much. Though you have to admit, the game comes a lot easier to a big. Smaller players (By NBA standards of course) have to develop far more in terms of skill just to be on the same level of a legit athletic 6'10-7'0 footer. Guys like Shaq, Russell, and Wilt were able to get away without having a ton in the skill department while still being distinguished as top tier players by a wide majority of basketball enthusiasts. Of course we judge mostly on overall impact and thats why those guys typically rated higher than the smaller more skilled players... Even more than more skilled bigs like Hakeem due to his lack of career achievements in comparison. Kareem being the most skilled big man with the overall resume to boot. Which is why most do regard him as the second best ever to play the game.

amos1er
06-25-2014, 07:54 PM
This comes down to Kareem and Russell for me and in the first thread they were neck and neck for most first place votes with Russell with 6 votes and Kareem 5 votes.

Russell dominated in his time defensively, but Kareem dominated both ends of the floor. Russell won more and Kareem had better numbers, but overall Kareem had the stats, accolades, productively and rings as well.





Vote: Russell

For Nomination I am going with Julius Erving.

Sorry, but Russell is the most overrated player in NBA history to me. An offensive liability who wouldn't even be considered the best big man in todays NBA can't be considered the second best to ever play the game IMO.

ManRam
06-25-2014, 09:11 PM
Sorry, but Russell is the most overrated player in NBA history to me. An offensive liability who wouldn't even be considered the best big man in todays NBA can't be considered the second best to ever play the game IMO.

Hey. We agree on something!

Ebbs
06-25-2014, 09:42 PM
I think KAJ is hard to argue against here.

After this it's a **** show.

amos1er
06-25-2014, 10:26 PM
Hey. We agree on something!

Ha... Was bound to happen eventually. Law of averages and all.

Jeffy25
06-25-2014, 11:15 PM
Either Magic or Kareem is the correct answer here. I went with Magic, but that's just personal preference. Kareem is a very acceptable answer as well.

Why Magic?

Jeffy25
06-25-2014, 11:17 PM
Sorry, but Russell is the most overrated player in NBA history to me. An offensive liability who wouldn't even be considered the best big man in todays NBA can't be considered the second best to ever play the game IMO.

How is it that you discredit Lebron for being 2-3 in the NBA Finals, and that being a core part of your reasoning, and then say Russell is over-rated with his 11 rings being the best player on those teams, and than giving Magic the second best rating, and he is 5-4 in the Finals.

You can't discredit Lebron for being 2-3 in the Finals, and then ignore it when it comes to other players. You need to be consistent with your reasoning for why you rank players where you rank them.

Kaner
06-25-2014, 11:36 PM
I think KAJ is hard to argue against here.

After this it's a **** show.

:laugh2: my thoughts exactly.



How in the **** does Lebron James get more votes than Magic Johnson... LMAO. There should seriously be an age limit to vote in these things just like in elections. :facepalm:

And you all wonder why most of the basketball fanbase in the free world can't stand his fans. Now you understand why I say he is overrated. Voting Lebron James as the second best player in the NBA of All-Time over Magic and Kareem is blatantly overrating him. You don't see this kind of garbage from Kobe fans on nearly this high of a scale. Just even more proof as to what I am talking about and why you all make us despise the guy even though he is a very gifted player and a good guy at heart. Lebron fans are truly the most obnoxious loathsome fans in the NBA by far. If you all just toned down the bandwagon a bit, you would be a lot better received.

I disagree, voting either Lebron OR Magic over Kareem is blatantly overrating them. But, of the two I think Lebron has the better argument mostly just because statistically Lebron has had comfortably a top 5 peak of all-time and arguably top 2. Obviously I wouldn't vote for him ahead of Kareem or even Magic yet because were still waiting on the body of work to fill out his career but if only considering the players ability then I could see why someone would vote for Lebron #2 while I really don't see a reason someone would take Magic over Kareem. Also am pretty sure from like 05-08 everyone on ESPN was pushing the Kobe is 2nd only to MJ narrative and I've heard a couple guys on this forum say that too.

Crackadalic
06-26-2014, 12:04 AM
Kareem for me

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-26-2014, 12:11 AM
Kareem, next thread please.

amos1er
06-26-2014, 01:05 AM
How is it that you discredit Lebron for being 2-3 in the NBA Finals, and that being a core part of your reasoning, and then say Russell is over-rated with his 11 rings being the best player on those teams, and than giving Magic the second best rating, and he is 5-4 in the Finals.

Weaker era... Less teams... Russell's team was unfairly stacked much like Lebron's is now. Magic has a winning record in the finals and faced much better teams than Lebron faced with his losing record.


You can't discredit Lebron for being 2-3 in the Finals, and then ignore it when it comes to other players. You need to be consistent with your reasoning for why you rank players where you rank them.

I am being very consistent.

amos1er
06-26-2014, 01:09 AM
Why Magic?

Look at the criteria in the OP. Overall impact was one of the major criteria. Magic had the most impact on the Showtime Lakers Dynasty IMO. Look at the Lakers record before Magic joined them in the 79-80 season. Kareem wouldn't have all those rings if not for Magic and Magic was the major factor that allowed Kareem to extend his career as long as he did at a high level and still winning rings. Don't get me wrong, it's very close and I totally understand people who voted Kareem... As I said earlier, it's just my personal preference and I feel that Magic had a greater overall impact on the Showtime Era.

Jeffy25
06-26-2014, 01:09 AM
Weaker era... Less teams... Russell's team was unfairly stacked much like Lebron's is now. Magic has a winning record in the finals and faced much better teams than Lebron faced with his losing record.



I am being very consistent.

You absolutely are not. You have to see that by now.

Just this very post you show your inconsistency.

You say Russell's don't count because there were less teams....but magic Johnson won his rings with 22 teams in the league.

Compared to lebron chasing his with 30.

This is just one example of how inconsistent you are.

Raps08-09 Champ
06-26-2014, 01:12 AM
Kobe because I am a Lakers fan.

amos1er
06-26-2014, 01:12 AM
I disagree, voting either Lebron OR Magic over Kareem is blatantly overrating them. But, of the two I think Lebron has the better argument mostly just because statistically Lebron has had comfortably a top 5 peak of all-time and arguably top 2. Obviously I wouldn't vote for him ahead of Kareem or even Magic yet because were still waiting on the body of work to fill out his career but if only considering the players ability then I could see why someone would vote for Lebron #2 while I really don't see a reason someone would take Magic over Kareem. Also am pretty sure from like 05-08 everyone on ESPN was pushing the Kobe is 2nd only to MJ narrative and I've heard a couple guys on this forum say that too.

Magic is closer to the number two spot than Lebron is. I really don't know how you can say otherwise. I don't value stats all that much when determining a players overall value and impact... That's probably why I don't value Lebron as much as you all seem to. Other than stats and regular season MVP awards (Which I don't really value all that much either)... Lebron really doesn't have close to a top ten career as of yet. There is still time though so don't go into a huff when I say this.

amos1er
06-26-2014, 01:24 AM
You absolutely are not. You have to see that by now.

I literally just explained myself... If thats not enough for you, then tell me specifically what you find inconsistent and I will address it to the best of my ability.


Just this very post you show your inconsistency.

How so...


You say Russell's don't count because there were less teams....but magic Johnson won his rings with 22 teams in the league.

You are not getting it... Far less teams and far less competition. Russell's teams were very unfairly stacked the same way Lebron's teams have been the past few years. Lebron played in a joke of a conference much the same way Russell played in a very weak era other than a few select teams and even they weren't close to the level of fire power the Celtics had in the 60's. Magic faced far greater competition and the remaining eight teams you speak of are all expansion teams that still haven't gotten their **** together. They are eight more teams that are essentially cannon fodder. Magic faced Bird's Celtics, Hakeem's Rockets, Jordan's Bulls, Bad Boy Pistons... Etc. I really don't see how you can argue that Lebron faced even close to the competition Magic faced and Magic still has a winning record in the finals and more finals appearances in a shorter amount of time. Magic was clutch from the get go playing center for Kareem in a crucial game six as a rookie and stepped up to the challenge. Lebron crapped his pants in the finals with a superior team as a 7 year vet. Just stop.


Compared to lebron chasing his with 30.

Again, expansion teams... Weak east... Lesser competition. Need I say more or are you just going to rehash all the same blanket statements again completely ignoring the fact that I addressed all your points.


This is just one example of how inconsistent you are.

I feel I am justified in my opinion.

Raps08-09 Champ
06-26-2014, 01:46 AM
What do you mean man? The Lakers were stacked during Russell's time.

amos1er
06-26-2014, 02:03 AM
What do you mean man? The Lakers were stacked during Russell's time.

Not compared to the Celtics.

ThuglifeJ
06-26-2014, 02:30 AM
Kareem Abdul Jabar has the best BASKETBALL career of all-time along with one of the greatest shots of all time the sky hook.

Look up my thread on validating KAJ as the Greatest of All Time if you want lots of facts and reasonings as to why he is.

Michael Jordan unquestionably is the greatest NBA player of all-time...KAJ is the greatest Basketball player of all-time.

In short KAJ put up dominant stats for like 20 years in the NBA, dominant in college, and a dominant phenom in high school as well. Even without a ring he was dominant and a top 8 player. But he even wins a championship in High school..championship in college..championship with the Bucks..multiple with LA.. Just look at his resume for his whole basketball career, it's insane. Jordan's peak was the GOAT, but like a 10 year span of dominance or w.e vs like a 25? You can argue KAJ as the #1 but hard to with Jordan's storyline career.

Probably have to go with Wilt after that. He was just about as big as Jordan in his day from what we've heard. After those 3 you have Magic, Bird, Shaq, Duncan, Olajuwan.. Dr J, Russell.. Hard to organize them all. I listed Russell last because I hate how we are forced to make him top 5 when it's mainly because of his ring count...Sure all time winner I get it..so sub Kevin Garnett in there (ratio-ing the differences in time) and you still get results on those teams.

Kaner
06-26-2014, 03:09 AM
Magic is closer to the number two spot than Lebron is. I really don't know how you can say otherwise. I don't value stats all that much when determining a players overall value and impact... That's probably why I don't value Lebron as much as you all seem to. Other than stats and regular season MVP awards (Which I don't really value all that much either)... Lebron really doesn't have close to a top ten career as of yet. There is still time though so don't go into a huff when I say this.
Did you see where I said I don't think Lebron is as high all-time right now as Magic or Kareem? Because I did, both of those guys played out historic careers that Lebron doesn't have the Mileage or hardware to compete with. BUT Lebron's stats and imo impact the last half decade or so is surpassed by probably less than a handful of players ever. With that in mind I could see why if only considering peaks and stats someone would vote lebron here. But I couldn't imagine why someone would take Magic over Kareem.

Jeffy25
06-26-2014, 03:12 AM
I literally just explained myself... If thats not enough for you, then tell me specifically what you find inconsistent and I will address it to the best of my ability.



How so...



You are not getting it... Far less teams and far less competition. Russell's teams were very unfairly stacked the same way Lebron's teams have been the past few years. Lebron played in a joke of a conference much the same way Russell played in a very weak era other than a few select teams and even they weren't close to the level of fire power the Celtics had in the 60's. Magic faced far greater competition and the remaining eight teams you speak of are all expansion teams that still haven't gotten their **** together. They are eight more teams that are essentially cannon fodder. Magic faced Bird's Celtics, Hakeem's Rockets, Jordan's Bulls, Bad Boy Pistons... Etc. I really don't see how you can argue that Lebron faced even close to the competition Magic faced and Magic still has a winning record in the finals and more finals appearances in a shorter amount of time. Magic was clutch from the get go playing center for Kareem in a crucial game six as a rookie and stepped up to the challenge. Lebron crapped his pants in the finals with a superior team as a 7 year vet. Just stop.



Again, expansion teams... Weak east... Lesser competition. Need I say more or are you just going to rehash all the same blanket statements again completely ignoring the fact that I addressed all your points.



I feel I am justified in my opinion.

You have to see that no one else can take any of this seriously.

Expansion doesn't matter when magic Johnson gets it, but it matter when Lebron gets it. We should penalize Russell for playing on a stacked team in a weak league and completely ignore that magic had exactly that.

The level of hypocrisy in your posts is beyond rational comprehension, and is why no one takes you seriously.

Jeffy25
06-26-2014, 03:16 AM
Magic is closer to the number two spot than Lebron is. I really don't know how you can say otherwise. I don't value stats all that much when determining a players overall value and impact... That's probably why I don't value Lebron as much as you all seem to. Other than stats and regular season MVP awards (Which I don't really value all that much either)... Lebron really doesn't have close to a top ten career as of yet. There is still time though so don't go into a huff when I say this.

Lebron can't have a legendary, top ten career as of yet. But magic Johnson is number 2 all time. But maybe Lebron will get there eventually.


But......they've played the same number of minutes, but well ignore that, because we already know that you ignore all stats, and just whatever subjective values you create are what matter.

tredigs
06-26-2014, 04:25 AM
Just saw this and thought it was an interesting comparison of peer dominance that Lebron has already been player of the month more times than Magic had been player of the week + player of the month combined (27 > 24).

That said, there were more elite superstars during Magic's run than Lebron's: Magic fought for Player of the Month with Jordan/Hakeem/Bird/Moses Malone/Dr. J/Barkley/Stockton/K. Malone/Kareem, etc.

amos1er
06-26-2014, 04:27 AM
You have to see that no one else can take any of this seriously.

Perhaps you don't and thats fine... Also your personal opinion... I just don't see how you can speak for others and what they would take seriously or not.


Expansion doesn't matter when magic Johnson gets it, but it matter when Lebron gets it. We should penalize Russell for playing on a stacked team in a weak league and completely ignore that magic had exactly that.

Point is that Magic played and defeated superior teams no matter how you slice it. Russell had the most stacked team of all time relative to his competition. That much I doubt anyone on here can argue against and I know that there are many on here who agree with that notion. IMO, Lebron comes in second in this regard as his team was very much stacked in comparison to the competition he beat to win his two rings. Magic's team was stacked for sure, but he didn't have a top 3 player and a top 15 player as wing men, nor did he have 5 additional guys who could shoot well over 40% from three. Magic also beat down some very serious competition en route to his rings and never choked the way Lebron did back in 2011. Lebron and Russell never had to go against teams like Bird's Celtics, Dr. J's Sixers, Hakeem's Rocket's, Bad Boy Pistons, and Jordan's Bulls. Lebron and Russell never faced anything remotely close to this. A champion is only as great as the rivals he beats after all.


The level of hypocrisy in your posts is beyond rational comprehension, and is why no one takes you seriously.

Again, you are speaking on the behalf of others and slandering me with personal attacks rather than debating my actual argument. They say the more offended someone gets, the more of a nerve one struck.

amos1er
06-26-2014, 04:39 AM
Lebron can't have a legendary, top ten career as of yet. But magic Johnson is number 2 all time. But maybe Lebron will get there eventually.

Is this supposed to be an attempt a sarcasm. Lol.


But......they've played the same number of minutes, but well ignore that, because we already know that you ignore all stats, and just whatever subjective values you create are what matter.

It's not subjective to say that Magic didn't choke the way Lebron did in 2011... That's a fact. Nor has any other superstar in the top ten of All-Time might I add. Nor do they have losing records in the finals.

It's not subjective to say that Lebron never had a finals game as good as the one where Magic was just a rookie and played center for an injured Kareem.

It's not subjective to say that Magic faced greater competition in the playoffs and finals.

It's not subjective to say that Magic doesn't have a losing record in the finals unlike Lebron.

It's not subjective to say that Magic making four straight finals was more impressive than Lebron doing it in the weakest Eastern Conference of All-Time.

It's not subjective to say that even though they played the same number of minutes, Magic has had the more successful career by far only missing the finals three times in 12 seasons while still having a winning record in the finals, winning three more rings, and one more Finals MVP.

Those are all more concrete facts than your Hollinger stats.

amos1er
06-26-2014, 04:42 AM
Did you see where I said I don't think Lebron is as high all-time right now as Magic or Kareem? Because I did, both of those guys played out historic careers that Lebron doesn't have the Mileage or hardware to compete with. BUT Lebron's stats and imo impact the last half decade or so is surpassed by probably less than a handful of players ever. With that in mind I could see why if only considering peaks and stats someone would vote lebron here. But I couldn't imagine why someone would take Magic over Kareem.

I already gave my opinion on that in two separate posts now. Go back and re-read them again if you still don't get why, because I don't fell like typing the same thing all over again. Again, it's my personal opinion and as I have now said for the third time... I don't have a problem with anyone picking Kareem over him.

thenaj17
06-26-2014, 04:59 AM
Just saw this and thought it was an interesting comparison of peer dominance that Lebron has already been player of the month more times than Magic had been player of the week + player of the month combined (27 > 24).

That said, there were more elite superstars during Magic's run than Lebron's: Magic fought for Player of the Month with Jordan/Hakeem/Bird/Moses Malone/Dr. J/Barkley/Stockton/K. Malone/Kareem, etc.

Am i right in thinking that the league back then only had 1 player of the week and 1 player of the month as opposed to 1 in each conference?
Not saying LeBron still wouldn't have won the majority of those but it would definitely be less

vics
06-26-2014, 06:31 AM
Lbj

Jeffy25
06-26-2014, 07:19 AM
Is this supposed to be an attempt a sarcasm. Lol.



It's not subjective to say that Magic didn't choke the way Lebron did in 2011... That's a fact. Nor has any other superstar in the top ten of All-Time might I add. Nor do they have losing records in the finals.

It's not subjective to say that Lebron never had a finals game as good as the one where Magic was just a rookie and played center for an injured Kareem.

It's not subjective to say that Magic faced greater competition in the playoffs and finals.

It's not subjective to say that Magic doesn't have a losing record in the finals unlike Lebron.

It's not subjective to say that Magic making four straight finals was more impressive than Lebron doing it in the weakest Eastern Conference of All-Time.

It's not subjective to say that even though they played the same number of minutes, Magic has had the more successful career by far only missing the finals three times in 12 seasons while still having a winning record in the finals, winning three more rings, and one more Finals MVP.

Those are all more concrete facts than your Hollinger stats.

Basic counting stats already show Lebron as superior, you don't need PER or WS to prove he's been better.

You haven't struck any chords. You are either aren't a rational person, or a huge lakers homer (or both)

And west and chamberlain are under .500 in the finals, a completely irreverent factoid. Bc getting to the finals and losing is better than getting knocked out earlier.

KnicksorBust
06-26-2014, 07:37 AM
I like KAJ here pretty convincingly. His accolades, team success, numbers, etc. are just all too strong. Yes, he played with Magic for a large portion of his career and Oscar early on, but his first ring w/ the Bucks he was far and away "the guy" and Oscar was passed his prime (not to mention that he never won in his prime on his "own"). He was still significantly better than Magic for the earlier parts of their time together, as well. Yes, Magic got the bulk of those Finals MVPs, but I can't take a lot credit away from him for that. He was just older, and Magic was fully in his prime. Flip that around and KAJ is easily winning those Finals MVPs himself. He was better in his prime than Magic, and his prime lasted a bit longer.

19 all star games. 6 MVPs. 2 Finals MVPs. 6 rings. 2nd all time in win shares. most minutes ever played. countless all-NBA and all-defense awards. the guy mixes peak dominance with longevity better than anyone in the league. he's been a scoring champ, a rebound champ, a block champ. he lead the league in PER and WS 9 times. he was efficient. he was a great defender.

Mix stats, success, accolades and longevity and he's a clear #2 in my opinion. There are a few things to nitpick, like 2 Finals MVPs in 6 Wins, but I kinda touched upon that and I think the rest aren't terribly significant.

Kareem and I'm glad I don't have to make the case because he's winning comfortably and this post makes it for me. His resume is just too good too ignore no matter what your preferences are for all-time lists.

I'm going Magic for #3 but I'll save those bullets for the next thread. :)

mightybosstone
06-26-2014, 10:00 AM
It should most definitely be Kareem. I think he's the obvious No. 2 at this point until Duncan or Lebron do something worthy of surpassing him. The real battle will be at No. 3 between Wilt, Magic, Lebron, Russell, Duncan and Kobe. Personally, I think it should be Magic, but I could also see myself voting for Wilt or Lebron depending on how I'm feeling that day.

xxplayerxx23
06-26-2014, 10:01 AM
This vote is between Russell, KAJ and Magic. I'm just going to have to go with Russell here. 11 championships, 5 MVPs, averaged 16/24.9 in the playoffs. That's just ridiculous.

He's so overrated absolutely not. Give me kareem

Chronz
06-26-2014, 11:08 AM
Kareem does have the best "resume" in terms of sheer number of accolades (team+individual) but the best player remaining is the guy Kareem would vote for, Wilty. KAJ is a fine choice but Magic shouldn't be mentioned until the elite 2-WAY players are off the court.

JordansBulls
06-26-2014, 11:49 AM
Just saw this and thought it was an interesting comparison of peer dominance that Lebron has already been player of the month more times than Magic had been player of the week + player of the month combined (27 > 24).



Not really the same. Back then you were player of the Week or Month for entire league whereas since 2003 they split it into player of the month for Eastern Conference and Western Conference.

ManRam
06-26-2014, 12:14 PM
Kareem does have the best "resume" in terms of sheer number of accolades (team+individual) but the best player remaining is the guy Kareem would vote for, Wilty. KAJ is a fine choice but Magic shouldn't be mentioned until the elite 2-WAY players are off the court.

I agree about Magic. Do you feel the same way about Russell too? Can't remember where you had him last go around.

BobbyHillSwag
06-26-2014, 12:48 PM
My vote goes to allen iverson as the #2 player of all time. Don't see why he isn't in the poll

Chronz
06-26-2014, 01:29 PM
I agree about Magic. Do you feel the same way about Russell too? Can't remember where you had him last go around.

I prolly have him higher now but in that Moses Malone category

Raps08-09 Champ
06-26-2014, 01:45 PM
Again, you are speaking on the behalf of others and slandering me with personal attacks rather than debating my actual argument. They say the more offended someone gets, the more of a nerve one struck.

He didn't slander you with personal attacks at all.

Bruno
06-26-2014, 02:29 PM
I agree about Magic. Do you feel the same way about Russell too? Can't remember where you had him last go around.

I don't discriminate either. I knock Russ for the same reason I knock Magic.

there are too many dominant two way players who need to get off the list first.

plus, Russell only had to go through two playoff rounds for the bulk of his titles. it makes me easier to rank the guy with 11 rings lower.

ManRam
06-26-2014, 02:38 PM
I don't discriminate either. I knock Russ for the same reason I knock Magic.

there are too many dominant two way players who need to get off the list first.

plus, Russell only had to go through two playoff rounds for the bulk of his titles. it makes me easier to rank the guy with 11 rings lower.

I got my anti-Russell post ready for when he's about to go too early. But yeah...not all rings are created equal. For example, my shower curtain has 12 of them (I counted this morning!). It's not the best basketball player ever.

Bruno
06-26-2014, 02:40 PM
I got my anti-Russell post ready for when he's about to go too early. But yeah...not all rings are created equal. For example, my shower curtain has 12 of them (I counted this morning!). It's not the best basketball player ever.

:laugh2:

KnicksorBust
06-26-2014, 02:56 PM
Kareem does have the best "resume" in terms of sheer number of accolades (team+individual) but the best player remaining is the guy Kareem would vote for, Wilty. KAJ is a fine choice but Magic shouldn't be mentioned until the elite 2-WAY players are off the court.

You are either exaggerating or are going to rank Magic in a crazy spot because I'm still seeing Wilt, Duncan, Hakeem, Moses, Shaq, LeBron and I can't imagine putting Magic closer to 10 than 1.

mightybosstone
06-26-2014, 04:22 PM
Kareem does have the best "resume" in terms of sheer number of accolades (team+individual) but the best player remaining is the guy Kareem would vote for, Wilty. KAJ is a fine choice but Magic shouldn't be mentioned until the elite 2-WAY players are off the court.

But based on that logic, how far down do you put him? If we're talking "elite two-way" guys in an all-time discussion, there are a freaking ton. Obviously Lebron, Wilt, Hakeem, Duncan, Shaq, Kobe and West belong in that discussion. Then there's guys like Bird, Oscar, Moses and Dr. J, who weren't all-time great defenders, but weren't slouches either. And then you go down further and there's two-way guys like KG, Wade, Robinson, Pippen, Stockton, Paul etc. And we could go further down than that.

I just don't know at what point his offensive dominance outweighs his defensive deficiencies, and I don't think its fair to say that he "shouldn't be mentioned until the elite 2-way players are off the court," because there's an insane amount of them. Just because they weren't good defenders, should we just throw out guys like Barkley, Dirk, Barry, Nash and Gervin while we're at it?

Bruno
06-26-2014, 04:39 PM
But based on that logic, how far down do you put him? If we're talking "elite two-way" guys in an all-time discussion, there are a freaking ton. Obviously Lebron, Wilt, Hakeem, Duncan, Shaq, Kobe and West belong in that discussion. Then there's guys like Bird, Oscar, Moses and Dr. J, who weren't all-time great defenders, but weren't slouches either. And then you go down further and there's two-way guys like KG, Wade, Robinson, Pippen, Stockton, Paul etc. And we could go further down than that.
I thought Moses was a great all time defender? before my time but i've seen footage and heard the stories of him checking KAJ in the playoffs. he also has a first team defense and a second team defense to his name. maybe he straddles that fence?



I just don't know at what point his offensive dominance outweighs his defensive deficiencies, and I don't think its fair to say that he "shouldn't be mentioned until the elite 2-way players are off the court," because there's an insane amount of them. Just because they weren't good defenders, should we just throw out guys like Barkley, Dirk, Barry, Nash and Gervin while we're at it?

fair. i think you just have to make a judgement call. there are plenty of great two way player who aren't ahead of Russell who would't be in front of him (such as say, KG or Dwyane Wade) but there are a handful of guys who dominated the game on both ends who had their share of accolades and team success to go with their GOAT level resumes.

Bruno
06-26-2014, 04:41 PM
You are either exaggerating or are going to rank Magic in a crazy spot because I'm still seeing Wilt, Duncan, Hakeem, Moses, Shaq, LeBron and I can't imagine putting Magic closer to 10 than 1.

i probably put Magic behind all of those players you listed :hide: but right after.

Hawkeye15
06-26-2014, 04:51 PM
give me the skyhook!

MBT, what are you doing with that voting?

Pablonovi
06-26-2014, 05:07 PM
N.B. I've been privileged to have watched the ENTIRETY of the careers of ALL the most-likely NBA GOAT Top 10 candidates. I started watching the year Russell started playing & saw Wilt Chamberlain 2-3 times LIVE the year he played for the Harlem Globetrotters. What little TV-coverage there was of the NBA, back then, I watched ALL of it.

I had the good fortune to have been raised by an intense & highly-informed professional Basketball fan, my dad; from BEFORE there was even an BAA-NBA. He constantly taught me about such as: Mikan and Pettit (I missed 1/2 of Pettit's career).

KAJ FOR GOAT #2 (I missed the vote on #1; I would have voted him #1 EASILY)
I have KAJ as my GOAT #1.
PEAK: #1
He has the highest PEAK (consecutive 5+ years) of anybody (Win Shares - which is the name of the game; WS/48 which is domination within the games; PER).

MOST UNSTOPPABLE/DEPENDABLE/UNIQUE SHOT: THE SKY HOOK:
He had the most unstoppable, , highest-percent (not counting shots from within 1 foot of the rim), and unique shot: the SKY HOOK. It is also THE hardest shot to make; thus why we've never seen it before or since.

PRIME:
He has the (tied) with 15 Selections for #1 most All-NBA 1st-Team + All-NBA 2nd-Team Selections.
He is (tied) with 10 Selections for #3 most All-NBA 1st-Teams (behind Kobe & Karl Malone).

PLAY-OFF SUCCESS:
Other than Bill Russell, KAJ had the most NBA Finals ever (4 more than MJ; 1 more than Magic).
And Russell played on THE most heavily-stacked team EVER. There were more All-Stars and future HOFers on those Celtic "All-Star" Teams than any other team in history; and it is NOT even close!

KAJ was at least the 2nd best player on everyone of those NBA Finals squads.

MONSTER EFFECT ON A BRAND-NEW EXPANSION TEAM:
He took the expansion Milwaukee Bucks, in only their second year, and converted them into a contender; the LARGEST YEAR-2 improvement ever. In only their 3rd year of existence, he led them to the Chip; that has never been equaled before or since.

DEFENSE:
KAJ WAS A MULTIPE-TIMES TOP DEFENDER AT THE #1 KEY DEFENSIVE POSITION
He won many All-NBA Defensive 1st-Teams+2nd-Teams.

TEAM-MATE:
Best Center ever, for the most years. His passing, his cooperation with others; his hustle down the court.

TOTAL DOMINATION:
He dominated his position (Center) MORE than any other player (other than Wilt); BUT KAJ did it for MORE years than Wilt, 50% more years! And no body else, at any other position comes all that close (taking in mind the contemporaries they faced at their position). i.e., If you compare WHO KAJ dominated (at the Center position) vs who such as Magic, MJ and Wilt dominated at their positions; KAJ's competition was FAR greater.

OVER-ALL, KAJ IS GOAT #1:

Compare all of this and more to:
Magic (who I have as my GOAT #2): KAJ had more: PEAK, PRIME, Finals, More All-NBA Teams, more in-game influence & more domination.

MJ (who I have as my GOAT #3): KAJ had more: PEAK, PRIME, Finals, More All-NBA Teams
and more in-game influence & more domination. AND MJ QUIT (probably because of ILLEGAL GAMBLING). That is a huge MINUS for me.

Wilt (who I have as my GOAT #4): KAJ had more: PEAK, PRIME, Finals, More All-NBA Teams BUT Wilt was more ERA-DOMINANT (though for 50% less years than KAJ).

... so
KAJ just beats all 4 of them decisively.
THE BIGGEST "MARK" AGAINST KAJ:
He was a LOUSY INTERVIEW. Playing the first half of his career pre-Magic/Bird, this was already the NBA's worst period in terms of reputation (drugs); add to that his utter reticence with reporters; and this HURTS his reputation HUGELY.

- - - - -
btw, despite what I've just said, I can "live" with anybody else's GOAT list AS LONG AS the following 4 are, in any order, in their GOAT Top 5:
KAJ,
Magic (GREATEST TEAM-mate ever)
MJ (GREATEST ASSASSIN ever)
Wilt GREATEST ERA-DOMINANT ever; over the course of some 140 head-to-heads vs Russell, Wilt dominated Bill. This is why Wilt BEAT Bill in the All-NBA 1st Team Selections MOST of those years.
- - - -
THE REST OF MY GOAT TOP 10:
#5: LBJ:
I have LeBron James currently in 5th All-Time. And, if he continues to have great seasons, I have him passing each of my GOAT Top 4, one year each. So, in other words, if LBJ has one more great year, he passes Wilt. Two more great years, he passes MJ, 3 more and he passes Magic. 4 more and he at least ties KAJ for my GOAT #1.

#6-8 Kobe (Just squeezes past Shaq & TD)
#6-8 Shaq (Just behind Kobe; more-dominant head-to-head vs TD)
#6-8 TD (Just behind both Kobe & Shaq)
#9 Jerry West (greatest shooter (unlimited range) of All-Time; great defender too).
#10 Dr J (2nd best player, after KAJ, of his era; unstoppable drives to the hoop).
- - - - -
NOTE ON BILL RUSSELL:
Aside from what I've already said about Russell's Celtics All-Star teams; Bill was DOMINATED at his own position through-out his career. This alone makes it impossible for me to rank Russell in the All-Time GOAT Top 10. (Put any number of the other All-Time Top 10 Centers on that Celtics All-Star team, and they win just as much as Russell did. AND, put Bill Russell on any of the bottom 3 teams of HIS era, and he wins ZERO Chips!)

Further, he was a very mediocre OFFENSIVE player; despite playing so close to the rim, his shooting percentage, comparatively was atrocious. imo, he would NOT dominate in any subsequent eras. He'd be a glorified Dennis Rodman - a DOMINANT DEFENSIVE PRESENCE period!

Pablonovi
06-26-2014, 05:14 PM
For Me, This Is How Close To KAJ: Magic, MJ &/or Wilt Were For My GOAT #1:

IF Magic had NOT quit due to AIDS, he MIGHT have passed KAJ (in my book).

IF MJ had NOT quit (for 4.8 seasons in total, PRIME years), he MIGHT have passed KAJ.

IF Wilt had only won a few more Game 7s in the Play-Offs, he MIGHT have passed KAJ.

IF Shaq & Kobe had kept playing together, imo, they would have made a number of additional NBA Finals. I believe that instead of 4 Finals with 3 Chips; they would have made 8-10 Finals with at least 6 Chips (maybe as many as 8). (with Shaq winning the first half of their fMVPs & Kobe the 2nd half)- and BOTH OF THEM WOULD BE in the GOAT #1 discussion.

KnicksorBust
06-26-2014, 05:21 PM
But based on that logic, how far down do you put him? If we're talking "elite two-way" guys in an all-time discussion, there are a freaking ton. Obviously Lebron, Wilt, Hakeem, Duncan, Shaq, Kobe and West belong in that discussion. Then there's guys like Bird, Oscar, Moses and Dr. J, who weren't all-time great defenders, but weren't slouches either. And then you go down further and there's two-way guys like KG, Wade, Robinson, Pippen, Stockton, Paul etc. And we could go further down than that.

I just don't know at what point his offensive dominance outweighs his defensive deficiencies, and I don't think its fair to say that he "shouldn't be mentioned until the elite 2-way players are off the court," because there's an insane amount of them. Just because they weren't good defenders, should we just throw out guys like Barkley, Dirk, Barry, Nash and Gervin while we're at it?

I love when I make an argument literally right above somebody and they make the same point with the next post. :)

KnicksorBust
06-26-2014, 05:24 PM
i probably put Magic behind all of those players you listed :hide: but right after.

It's so crazy to hear that from a Lakers fan. They were just so off the charts successful and he was so unbelievably productive offensively. 9 trips to the finals... come on man...

Raps08-09 Champ
06-26-2014, 05:24 PM
Not compared to the Celtics.

No one was as stacked as the Lakers in the 80's.

Bruno
06-26-2014, 05:25 PM
N.B. I've been privileged to have watched the ENTIRETY of the careers of ALL the most-likely NBA GOAT Top 10 candidates. I started watching the year Russell started playing & saw Wilt Chamberlain 2-3 times LIVE the year he played for the Harlem Globetrotters. What little TV-coverage there was of the NBA, back then, I watched ALL of it.

I had the good fortune to have been raised by an intense & highly-informed professional Basketball fan, my dad; from BEFORE there was even an BAA-NBA. He constantly taught me about such as: Mikan and Pettit (I missed 1/2 of Pettit's career).

KAJ FOR GOAT #2 (I missed the vote on #1; I would have voted him #1 EASILY)
I have KAJ as my GOAT #1.
PEAK: #1
He has the highest PEAK (consecutive 5+ years) of anybody (Win Shares - which is the name of the game; WS/48 which is domination within the games; PER).

MOST UNSTOPPABLE/DEPENDABLE/UNIQUE SHOT: THE SKY HOOK:
He had the most unstoppable, , highest-percent (not counting shots from within 1 foot of the rim), and unique shot: the SKY HOOK. It is also THE hardest shot to make; thus why we've never seen it before or since.

PRIME:
He has the (tied) at 15 for #1 most All-NBA 1st-Team + All-NBA 2nd-Team Selections.
He is (tied) at 10 for #3 most All-NBA 1st-Teams (behind Kobe & Karl Malone).

PLAY-OFF SUCCESS:
Other than Bill Russell, KAJ had the most NBA Finals ever (4 more than MJ; 1 more than Magic).
And Russell played on THE most heavily-stacked team EVER. There were more All-Stars and future HOFers on those Celtic "All-Star" Teams than any other team in history; and it is NOT even close!

KAJ was at least the 2nd best player on everyone of those NBA Finals squads.

MONSTER EFFECT ON A BRAND-NEW EXPANSION TEAM:
He took the expansion Milwaukee Bucks, in only their second year, and converted them into a contender; the LARGEST YEAR-2 improvement ever. In only their 3rd year of existence, he led them to the Chip; that has never been equaled before or since.

DEFENSE:
KAJ WAS A MULTIPE-TIMES TOP DEFENDER AT THE #1 KEY DEFENSIVE POSITION
He won many All-NBA Defensive 1st-Teams+2nd-Teams.

TEAM-MATE:
Best Center ever, for the most years. His passing, his cooperation with others; his hustle down the court.

TOTAL DOMINATION:
He dominated his position (Center) MORE than any other player (other than Wilt); BUT KAJ did it for MORE years than Wilt, 50% more years! And no body else, at any other position comes all that close (taking in mind the contemporaries they faced at their position). i.e., If you compare WHO KAJ dominated (at the Center position) vs who such as Magic, MJ and Wilt dominated at their positions; KAJ's competition was FAR greater.

OVER-ALL, KAJ IS GOAT #1:

Compare all of this and more to:
Magic (who I have as my GOAT #2): KAJ had more: PEAK, PRIME, Finals, More All-NBA Teams, more in-game influence & more domination.

MJ (who I have as my GOAT #3): KAJ had more: PEAK, PRIME, Finals, More All-NBA Teams
and more in-game influence & more domination. AND MJ QUIT (probably because of ILLEGAL GAMBLING). That is a huge MINUS for me.

Wilt (who I have as my GOAT #4): KAJ had more: PEAK, PRIME, Finals, More All-NBA Teams BUT Wilt was more ERA-DOMINANT (though for 50% less years than KAJ).

... so
KAJ just beats all 4 of them decisively.
THE BIGGEST "MARK" AGAINST KAJ:
He was a LOUSY INTERVIEW. Playing the first half of his career pre-Magic/Bird, this was already the NBA's worst period in terms of reputation (drugs); add to that his utter reticence with reporters; and this HURTS his reputation HUGELY.

- - - - -
btw, despite what I've just said, I can "live" with anybody else's GOAT list AS LONG AS the following 4 are, in any order, in their GOAT Top 5:
KAJ,
Magic (GREATEST TEAM-mate ever)
MJ (GREATEST ASSASSIN ever)
Wilt GREATEST ERA-DOMINANT ever; over the course of some 140 head-to-heads vs Russell, Wilt dominated Bill. This is why Wilt BEAT Bill in the All-NBA 1st Team Selections MOST of those years.
- - - -
THE REST OF MY GOAT TOP 10:
#5: LBJ:
I have LeBron James currently in 5th All-Time. And, if he continues to have great seasons, I have him passing each of my GOAT Top 4, one year each. So, in other words, if LBJ has one more great year, he passes Wilt. Two more great years, he passes MJ, 3 more and he passes Magic. 4 more and he at least ties KAJ for my GOAT #1.

#6-8 Kobe (Just squeezes past Shaq & TD)
#6-8 Shaq (Just behind Kobe; more-dominant head-to-head vs TD)
#6-8 TD (Just behind both Kobe & Shaq)
#9 Jerry West (greatest shooter (unlimited range) of All-Time; great defender too).
#10 Dr J (2nd best player, after KAJ, of his era; unstoppable drives to the hoop).
- - - - -
NOTE ON BILL RUSSELL:
Aside from what I've already said about Russell's Celtics All-Star teams; Bill was DOMINATED at his own position through-out his career. This alone makes it impossible for me to rank Russell in the All-Time GOAT Top 10. (Put any number of the other All-Time Top 10 Centers on that Celtics All-Star team, and they win just as much as Russell did. AND, put Bill Russell on any of the bottom 3 teams of HIS era, and he wins ZERO Chips!)

Further, he was a very mediocre OFFENSIVE player; despite playing so close to the rim, his shooting percentage, comparatively was atrocious. imo, he would NOT dominate in any subsequent eras. He'd be a glorified Dennis Rodman - a DOMINANT DEFENSIVE PRESENCE period!
I only split hairs with you on three points.

1) I don't think you're critical of Magics defense, or at least, you don't count him against him as much as I think you should (you rank being a good teammate above defense, right?)
2) I think Birds in front of West and DR. J
3) I grudgingly put Duncan ahead of Shaq, Bryant and James. (what to do with these four is the most difficult part of putting together a GOAT list, IMO). I take Magic and Bird after these four guys, as well as Hakeem.

I really like the rest of your post and points, including what you say about Russell. i take Wilt in front of KAJ but i'm just nitpicking. there's nothing wrong with KAJ going in front of Wilt. I appreciate commentary from a first hand account, most of us are just piecing together the puzzle.

were you a Laker fan growing up?

Bruno
06-26-2014, 05:31 PM
It's so crazy to hear that from a Lakers fan. They were just so off the charts successful and he was so unbelievably productive offensively. 9 trips to the finals... come on man...

I know man. they hate me.

he was the catalyst behind the leagues greatest offense. but a short career. him and Russell were great champions and elite on the side of the ball they specialized in. but a lot of players on this list dominated both sides of the ball. I think Magic is a top three offensive talent all time and that Russell is a top three defensive talent all time, but when you combine the two both fall to the trail end of my top ten.

Pablonovi
06-26-2014, 05:45 PM
I only split hairs with you on three points.

1) I don't think you're critical of Magics defense, or at least, you don't count him against him as much as I think you should (you rank being a good teammate above defense, right?)
2) I think Birds in front of West and DR. J
3) I grudgingly put Duncan ahead of Shaq, Bryant and James. (what to do with these four is the most difficult part of putting together a GOAT list, IMO). I take Magic and Bird after these four guys, as well as Hakeem.

I really like the rest of your post and points, including what you say about Russell. i take Wilt in front of KAJ but i'm just nitpicking. there's nothing wrong with KAJ going in front of Wilt. I appreciate commentary from a first hand account, most of us are just piecing together the puzzle.

were you a Laker fan growing up?

Hey Bruno,
Thanx for the compliments, (muchly appreciated).

Your last point/question first:
I grew up in New Jersey, then went to high school just outside of Boston - I went to a number of C's games at the Gaaaden.

My background: My dad was EXTREMELY TOLERANT in a VERY INTOLLERANT AGE. We made trips southward from New Jersey 1-2 times every year. I saw up close and personal such as:
Brutal gang-bang beatings EVERYWHERE we went down South.
The "3-Bathroom 'System'" EVERYWHERE we went down South. (One bathroom for "men"; one for "women" and an abomination of one for "coloreds". You could find THEM in the dark (there was never any lighting or cleaning) just by the smell and the flies.

My dad would have to address me, his oldest son, personally, on every one of those trips: "Son, you are NOT to even think about getting out of the car and trying to defend anybody! You're a small guy and you'd just get yourself and the rest of us killed."

In the Boston area, during High School, EVERY TEAM HAD TWO SETS OF CHEER LEADERS ! One set, the white ones, ONLY cheered for the white players on their own team. The other set, the black ones, ONLY cheered for the black players on their own team. EVER, even in the H.S. Play-Offs, even in Championship games.

Over those 4 years, I attended Celtics' games over a dozen times at Boston Garden. You could "taste" the hatred of the white fans for the black players on their OWN team (they could barely "tolerate" that such as the great Bill Russell contributed so much to their winning!) Blacks (especially the BEST players) on the opposing team would have horrible racist epithets hurled at them all game long.

It was dangerous in the bathrooms due to all the swirling bigotry.

All of this severely "marked" me: I just hated it all; but felt so absolutely powerless to do anything about it.
It took everything I had to not get in trouble for speaking out against it (and people here may be well aware of how "unique/weird" I am - so it was NOT easy to hold my tongue!)
----
The Influence Of West-Baylor and "O"-Lucas:
Imagine what it meant for such a young man as myself, to WITNESS the bi-racial artistic beauty of West-Baylor and the Big "O"-Jerry Lucas. Those two pairs of TEAM-mates is what INSPIRED me to hope and work for change society-wide (ever since then - that's 50 years of serious effort).

In particular, West's long-range marksmenship, and Elgin's virtually unlimited moves around the hoop, "converted" me into a Life-Long Lakers' fan (despite being born and growing up just outside NYC - the Knicks have always been my 2nd Favorite basketball team.

I was a HUGE Yankees fan - boy was that easy back then; and a HUGE Mets fan - boy was that HARD back then. The Mets constant losing soured me away from the MLB - I felt that somehow it was my fault when they lost, again and again - and it was just too much to take.)

mightybosstone
06-26-2014, 05:51 PM
I thought Moses was a great all time defender? before my time but i've seen footage and heard the stories of him checking KAJ in the playoffs. he also has a first team defense and a second team defense to his name. maybe he straddles that fence?
I've never read anything about Moses to suggest he was an all-time great defender. Solid, but not spectacular based on everything I've ever read about the guy, although he was obviously a monster on the glass. I've heard that he gave Kareem fits as well, but I'd be willing to be that was an issue with individual matchup versus an all-time great defender exerting his dominance. Not that it's a perfect barometer of a player's worth, but I think Moses made only like two all-defensive teams in a 20-year career.


fair. i think you just have to make a judgement call. there are plenty of great two way player who aren't ahead of Russell who would't be in front of him (such as say, KG or Dwyane Wade) but there are a handful of guys who dominated the game on both ends who had their share of accolades and team success to go with their GOAT level resumes.
I just want to know where the line is drawn. Because to say Magic shouldn't be considered until all great two-way players are off the board just seems ludicrous. Even if we only consider guys who were great defenders in the top 15, I have a seriously hard time making a case for Kobe or West over Magic. The guy was just a better basketball player.

amos1er
06-26-2014, 06:03 PM
No one was as stacked as the Lakers in the 80's.

I was referring to the 60's Celtic squads... Not 80's.

amos1er
06-26-2014, 06:07 PM
Kareem does have the best "resume" in terms of sheer number of accolades (team+individual) but the best player remaining is the guy Kareem would vote for, Wilty. KAJ is a fine choice but Magic shouldn't be mentioned until the elite 2-WAY players are off the court.

That may be true, but this is about All-Time Greatness and your not factoring in that other than Jordan and Kareem, Magic has by far the best resume and accolades.

Pablonovi
06-26-2014, 06:09 PM
I only split hairs with you on three points.

1) I don't think you're critical of Magics defense, or at least, you don't count him against him as much as I think you should (you rank being a good teammate above defense, right?)
2) I think Birds in front of West and DR. J
3) I grudgingly put Duncan ahead of Shaq, Bryant and James. (what to do with these four is the most difficult part of putting together a GOAT list, IMO). I take Magic and Bird after these four guys, as well as Hakeem.

I really like the rest of your post and points, including what you say about Russell. i take Wilt in front of KAJ but i'm just nitpicking. there's nothing wrong with KAJ going in front of Wilt. I appreciate commentary from a first hand account, most of us are just piecing together the puzzle.

were you a Laker fan growing up?

One-Sided Players: Magic "VS" Russell (& A Shout-Out To "Spur-fection")

Hey Bruno,
About Magic.

I am/was fully aware of Magic's "lack of prowess" on the defensive end. It just seemed to me, to be ultimately, of little consequence, BECAUSE, the Lakers could just consistently outscore the other "guys"; and that was his specialty. Having watched all these decades of NBA (and ABA) ball; I've never seen any team play ball quite like that. And it's not surprising that ALL the greatest-ever seasons for assist-dominated TEAM-work, were Magic-led.

And FOR ME, TEAMWORK beats everything else, even Rings & personal awards.

SPUR-FECTION:
btw, the reason I so enjoyed this year's NBA Finals, is because, imo, "Spur-fection" is the closest, by far, any team has ever come to Magic's Lakers' ball-movement and offensive TEAM-work. I really didn't have a "horse" in the Finals; though I was slightly rooting for the HEAT over the Spurs, because I like LeBron's game SLIGHTLY more than TD's game. BUT, that Spurs ball-movement (never letting the ball stick); DOMINATED that HEAT super-D. It was NO-CONTEST.

Magic VS Russell:
I agree with everyone who points out the very one-sided nature of their respective games.

However, I believe that Russell would NOT flourish in any other era; but that Magic would.
Russell did NOT stop Wilt (Wilt averaged a tiny bit less ppg & rpg against the C's - who did everything they could to help Russell; than he did against the rest of the League).

btw, for those who don't KNOW and suspect otherwise:
BY FAR, THE TOUGHEST DEFENSIVE ERA EVER WAS WILT'S ERA.
It was so bad, that Wilt seriously considered quitting after just his first year because of how much he was getting beat on. I saw it first-hand (LIVE and live/taped-delay on TV). I absolutely marvel at his personal discipline and self-control. If he had EVER lost his temper, he would have killed-with-one-blow ANYBODY within reach.

Russell would NOT have stopped KAJ; Russell would NOT have stopped Bill Walton (who was just a very-similar version of Russ on the Defensive end, but: bigger, stronger & smarter; AND, humongously better OFFENSIVELY).

Russell would NOT have stopped Moses or Hakeem or Shaq. AND, they all would have completely stopped him. imo, Russell would NOT outplay Dwight Howard.

I'd rate Magic's defense (it was passable) as definitely superior to Russell's offense (it was atrocious).

OTOH, put Magic on any other team (with the only possible exception being Stockton's Utah Jazz), in any other era, and THAT team plays decidedly better (DESPITE Magic's defensive deficiencies.)
Put another way, Russell DEFENSIVE-dominance could be neutralized/overcome; Magic's OFFENSIVE-dominance could NOT.

I make the one exception for John Stockton because Stockton WAS one tough defender; and not far Magic's inferior on the offensive end. I believe Magic would have had the Jazz playing very-slightly better ball; but not enough to have made much of a difference - that team was too-flawed (outside its monster-2: Stockton-Malone).
I have Stockton as my All-Time GOAT #2 TEAM-mate.

Jeffy25
06-26-2014, 06:12 PM
I got my anti-Russell post ready for when he's about to go too early. But yeah...not all rings are created equal. For example, my shower curtain has 12 of them (I counted this morning!). It's not the best basketball player ever.

:laugh2:

amos1er
06-26-2014, 06:36 PM
Basic counting stats already show Lebron as superior, you don't need PER or WS to prove he's been better.

Sorry, not only does Magic have by far the superior resume and accolades, he has more of an impact on a team in terms of winning and leadership than does Lebron. Magic was the better rebounder and much better passer. He may not have scored as much, but he was far better in the clutch as well when his team needed him to score. Magic just never froze up the way Lebron does in the big moments. Magic knew when it was time to shoot and time to pass... Lebron still hasn't figured this out yet.


You haven't struck any chords. You are either aren't a rational person, or a huge lakers homer (or both)

Again, nothing more personal opinion, defamation of character, and a false dilemma fallacy... Thought I could expect more from a mod.


And west and chamberlain are under .500 in the finals, a completely irreverent factoid. Bc getting to the finals and losing is better than getting knocked out earlier.

I explained already that I give Chamberlain and West a pass because they were up against insanely stacked teams in the Boston Celtics. Lebron doesn't get that same pass, because he was on an insanely stacked team in comparison to the rest of the league and still came up short... Not only that, I don't consider West top ten All-Time either. I give Wilt the nod because of his sheer dominance on both ends of the floor and because he was just very unlucky running into Russ's Celtics all those times. West was unlucky too, but just wasn't the force Wilt was. When both teamed up and finally had a good team, they had the best run in the history of the game. Just imagine if both had been in their primes and played together... Scary... I rank both ahead of James currently.

BklynKnicks3
06-26-2014, 06:41 PM
Larry bird to the 10 people that voted for lebron u need a drug test

Jeffy25
06-26-2014, 06:57 PM
Sorry, not only does Magic have by far the superior resume and accolades, he has more of an impact on a team in terms of winning and leadership than does Lebron. Magic was the better rebounder and much better passer. He may not have scored as much, but he was far better in the clutch as well when his team needed him to score. Magic just never froze up the way Lebron does in the big moments. Magic knew when it was time to shoot and time to pass... Lebron still hasn't figured this out yet.



Again, nothing more personal opinion, defamation of character, and a false dilemma fallacy... Thought I could expect more from a mod.



I explained already that I give Chamberlain and West a pass because they were up against insanely stacked teams in the Boston Celtics. Lebron doesn't get that same pass, because he was on an insanely stacked team in comparison to the rest of the league and still came up short... Not only that, I don't consider West top ten All-Time either. I give Wilt the nod because of his sheer dominance on both ends of the floor and because he was just very unlucky running into Russ's Celtics all those times. West was unlucky too, but just wasn't the force Wilt was. When both teamed up and finally had a good team, they had the best run in the history of the game. Just imagine if both had been in their primes and played together... Scary... I rank both ahead of James currently.

Soo...a bunch of unmeasurable intangibles for magic?

I'm not saying Lebron is greater than magic all time.

I'm dismissing you saying he is the second best all time...and doing so with nothing to support your assertions other than intangibles that can't be measured.

Pablonovi
06-26-2014, 07:02 PM
The Monster INFLUENCE Of Red Auerbach (& Shout-Out To Pop)

I readily admit that I never "liked" Red Auerbach; might have had something to do with his C's beating my Lakers 7 time IN A ROW when they met in the NBA Finals.

Otoh, I NEVER doubted his GENIUS.

As a COACH, imo, he was EASILY, ERA-WISE, the most far-ahead-of-his-times coach ever.
As a GM, imo, he was EASILY, ERA-WISE, the most far-ahead-of-his-times GM ever.

Now, assume for a moment that I am either not wrong at all; or at least not exaggerating much.
Ask yourself, "How much was that vastly-superior coaching/GM-ing WORTH to the Celtic All-Star teams?"

In the Play-Offs, the C's won MANY close games (including with buzzer-beaters / "heroic" last-second plays; and overtimes). The C's won MANY close series (many decided in Game-7s) including a number of NBA Finals.

I claim that Red was WORTH 5 points a game!

Take Red, THE COACH, away from the Celtics: they lose the majority of those close games and series.
Take Red, THE GM, away from the Celtics: they don't have the All-Star team to begin with.

Put Red, THE COACH, on the bench of Wilt's teams: Wilt's teams win virtually all of those close Play-Off games and series.
Put Red, THE GM, behind Wilt's teams: Wilt's teams win 11 Chips in 13 years (and easier than Russell's C's did)!
-----
btw,
I have the Spurs "Pop" as THE GOAT #1 Coach; because, essentially, he has done "more with less". The monster 17-year run in the regular season - is unequalled. The 5 Chips and the other, various non-winning Play-Off runs have been exemplary.

In particular, imo, the HEAT win these Finals with any other coach than Pop on the Spurs bench. It was the sheer genius and perfection of the Spurs execution on BOTH sides of the ball that beat the HEAT. He WAS the fMVP, imo UNDOUBTEDLY, of these Finals (far more influential than Kawhi "Sugar" Leonard; who while playing well, did NOT greatly outplay: TD, TP or LeBron(!)).

On offense: the swarming HEAT D didn't stand a chance: the ball just beat them everywhere, until it came to rest in the hands of a wide-open shooter. AND, it literally wore the HEAT out.

On defense: the swarming Spurs D played to near-perfection. No HEAT drives to the hoop were uncontested (almost without exception). Even LeBron, who no other team can even hope to stop, had to work his butt off to score going to the rim. The rest of the HEAT were rendered INEPT; looking OLD, slow and tired.

Certainly the Spurs players contributed greatly.

BUT, it was Pop's:
1) Building an entire team of TEAM-first players;
2) Regular Season Resting of players that led to them peaking for the Play-Offs; and
3) Play-Off Coaching Mastery
that, ultimately, in my mind, WON these Finals.

Jeffy25
06-26-2014, 07:06 PM
I explained already that I give Chamberlain and West a pass because they were up against insanely stacked teams in the Boston Celtics.

And this is a continuation of what I am talking about.

You say Lebron is the only top 10 player of all time (or would) with a below .500 Finals record (which is a useless and silly argument in the first place). But you randomly give Chamberlain a pass for having to face Russell in the Finals against 'stacked teams, which you also don't give Russell any credit for being on.


You just draw random lines in the sand wherever you please to define greatness, and use absolutely no statistical information to support your positions.

tredigs
06-26-2014, 07:15 PM
Red also never won a thing without Bill. Speaking of "best teammate ever".

Pablonovi
06-26-2014, 07:20 PM
Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post

"And west and chamberlain are under .500 in the finals, a completely irreverent factoid. Bc getting to the finals and losing is better than getting knocked out earlier."

Getting To The Finals IS WAY BETTER Than Getting Knocked Out Earlier

Hey Jeffy25,
Though not really surprising to me, it has been absolutely AMAZING to me that we've recently had a thread where the GREAT MAJORITY of the posters have taken the position that it is Way Better to:
1) Not make the Finals than to make them and lose there; but even ...

2) Not make the Play-Offs than to make them and lose there short of the Finals; but even ...

3) Not even play during the regular season than to play and not make the Play-Offs.

Why? Because of MJ, that's why.

IF YOUR NAME IS MJ; then you:
a) Don't even have to play a game in the regular season; because, supposedly, you automatically get credit for:
i) Making the Play-Offs
ii) Surviving all the pre-Finals rounds of the Play-Offs; and
iii) Winning the Chip

"MJ would definitely have won the Chip" (despite the ever-present dangers of: injury and/or fatigue - for MJ to have won 8 Chips in a row, that would have been a huge amount of extra games played EVERY year - PERHAPS he might have won in 94 and 95 AND NOT WON in one or more of 96, 97, and 98?

For me, given that both MJ and KAJ won 6 Finals each; there can be NO DOUBT that KAJ's 4 Additional Finals Losses COUNT FOR A LOT over MJ's 4 Additional Earlier-Than-The-Finals Losses.

For West: 8 ADDITIONAL Finals, COUNT FOR A LOT. His reputation is FAR greater with 9 Finals rather than only the one he/they won.

Same for Wilt: 5 ADDITIONAL Finals, COUNT FOR A LOT. His reputation is FAR greater with 7 Finals rather than only the two he/they won.

Same for Baylor: 8 Finals (despite ALL of them being losses), COUNT FOR A LOT. His reputation is FAR greater with the 8 Finals DEFEATS, than if he had lost earlier in the Play-Offs all 8 of those years.

Pablonovi
06-26-2014, 08:18 PM
Larry bird to the 10 people that voted for lebron u need a drug test

Hey BklynKnicks3,
iirc, Even Larry Legend has recently come out saying that LeBron has already passed him.
LeBron's PEAK beats Larry's. LeBron's stats are all already equal to or surpass Bird's. LeBron DOMINATES Bird when it comes to All-NBA Defensive Team Selections.
All-NBA Defensive 1st-Teams: LeBron 5, Bird 0.
All-NBA Defensive 1st-Teams + 2nd-Teams: Lebron 6, Bird 3.

LeBron is at least Larry's equal at passing. LeBron can readily cover 4 if not all 5 positions; Larry couldn't cover any guards at all. LeBron is about equal to Larry at shooting J's. Bird wins at FTs; LeBron at drives to the hoop.

LBJ's already got the same number of Finals appearances (though Bird has 3 Chips to LeBron's 2).

I'd take Bird's teammates over LeBron's:
McHale OVER DWade (the DWade that's been there since LeBron came to the HEAT);
Parish OVER Bosh (and the zeros he had at Cleveland)
Dennis Johnson, Danny Ainge, Bill Walton, Cornbread Maxwell OVER the HEAT & Cavs "supporting" casts.

imo, Bird (or possibly anybody else) would NOT have led Cleveland to the Finals like LeBron did that year.

I've got LeBron #5 All-Time; I've got Bird 11-15.

Oh, btw, it's been decades since I'd have flunked a drug test.

LINK: http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/b/larry_bird_vs_lebron_james.htm

JordansBulls
06-26-2014, 10:22 PM
GOAT Candidates in Series with HCA and/or Top Seed or Same Record

Michael Jordan 24-0 in series with HCA and 25-0 in series with HCA/Top Seed/Same Seed/Higher Seed
Kareem 34-5 in series with HCA
Russell 22-1 in series with HCA
Magic 29-3 in series with HCA
Bird 24-7 in series with HCA
Wilt 13-5 in series with HCA
Hakeem 9-2 in series with HCA and Lost with Same Record in 1993 at 55-27 against Seattle and in 1999 at 31-19 against LA. Thus he is 9-4 in Series with Same Record/HCA
Shaq 24-5 in Series with HCA - (5-2 with Orl and 14-1 with LA = 19-3 and 4-1 in Miami)
Duncan 30-6 in Series with HCA


vs 50 win teams/non-50 win teams
Jordan: 14-0 (100%)/ 10-0 (100%)
Jabbar: 11-3 (79%)/ 23-2 (92%)
Russell: 10-0 (100%)/ 12-1 (92%)* missed most of series lost
Wilt: 4-3 (57%)/ 9-2 (82%)
Magic: 9-2 (82%)/ 20-1 (95%)
Bird: 10-6 (63%)/ 14-1 (93%)
Olajuwon: 4-0 (100%)/ 5-2 (71%)
Shaq: 11-3 (79%)/ 13-2 (87%)
Duncan: 19-5 (79%)/ 11-1 (92%)
Lebron: 3-3 (50%)/ 15-0 (100%)

Pablonovi
06-26-2014, 10:23 PM
Larry bird to the 10 people that voted for lebron u need a drug test

Hey BklynKnicks3,
iirc, Even Larry Legend has recently come out saying that LeBron has already passed him.
LeBron's PEAK beats Larry's. LeBron's stats are all already equal to or surpass Bird's. LeBron DOMINATES Bird when it comes to All-NBA Defensive Team Selections.
All-NBA Defensive 1st-Teams: LeBron 5, Bird 0.
All-NBA Defensive 1st-Teams + 2nd-Teams: Lebron 6, Bird 3.

LeBron is at least Larry's equal at passing. LeBron can readily cover 4 if not all 5 positions; Larry couldn't cover any guards at all. LeBron is about equal to Larry at shooting J's. Bird wins at FTs; LeBron at drives to the hoop.

LBJ's already got the same number of Finals appearances (though Bird has 3 Chips to LeBron's 2).

I'd take Bird's teammates over LeBron's:
McHale OVER DWade (the DWade that's been there since LeBron came to the HEAT);
Parish OVER Bosh (and the zeros he had at Cleveland)
Dennis Johnson, Danny Ainge, Bill Walton, Cornbread Maxwell OVER the HEAT & Cavs "supporting" casts.

imo, Bird (or possibly anybody else) would NOT have led Cleveland to the Finals like LeBron did that year.

I've got LeBron #5 All-Time; I've got Bird 11-15.

Oh, btw, it's been decades since I'd have flunked a drug test.

LINK: http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/b/larry_bird_vs_lebron_james.htm

Pablonovi
06-26-2014, 10:25 PM
A HUGE CASE CAN BE MADE THAT KAJ'S CAREER WAS GREATER THAN MJ'S

Since the end of the Finals, I've spent 100+ hours, in preparation for these GOAT discussions to studying two NBA very-related things:
1) INDIVIDUAL GREATNESS (especially focusing on comparing All-NBA 1st-Team, 2nd-Team & 3rd-Team Selections);

2) TEAM GREATNESS (especially focusing on the size (number of teams) of the NBL, BAA, NBA and ABA AND how the increases in the number of teams has affected the Win-Loss records (and our perception of how great the teams with the best W-L records really were).

I'm close to done with both studies and should post each within the next 2-3 days.

Meanwhile, I missed this thread and vote.
I would have voted for KAJ as #1.
I've begun to lay out my NUMEROUS reasons in the thread about GOAT #2.

Contrary to what many posters have stated here; a quite convincing case can be made that KAJ was better than MJ.

1) PEAK: KAJ's PEAK (5-7 SUPER YEARS) was better than MJ's. KAJ had 3 of the top 7 WinShare years ever; MJ's best year is NOT even in the Top 8 best years ever. Partial Case Closed!

2) PRIME: KAJ'S PRIME: (15 Great Years) was better than MJ's 11 Great Years. 4 additional Great Years is a lot! Partial Case Closed!

3) ERA-DOMINANCE: KAJ was MORE dominant of his 20 year career period than MJ was of the 19 years his career spanned. Partial Case Closed!

4) POSITION-DOMINANCE: Everyone rightly agrees that (until recently, post-Shaq) the Center position has always been, by far the most dominant. KAJ dominated the other centers during his 20 years MORE than MJ did the other SG's of his 19 year career-spanning period. AND the Centers of KAJ's 2 decades were far superior to the SG's of MJ's. Partial Case Closed!


5) PLAY-OFF SUCCESS: KAJ made 10 Finals in his first 19 years; MJ made 6 Finals during the 19 years his career spanned (he does NOT get positive credit for years he quit !; he DOES get negative credit for quitting!) Besides them both winning the Finals 6 times each; KAJ made it thru TO the Finals 4 other times; while MJ's teams failed to make it to the Finals in his 4 other best Play-Off years). Overall, KAJ's teams did FAR better in the Play-Offs than did MJ's. Partial Case Closed!

6) DEFENSE: True, MJ had more All-NBA Defensive First-Teams (9 Times); BUT, that's comparing the defensively relatively very weak position of Shooting Guard TO the #1 most-important defensive position: Center. KAJ had 11 All-NBA Defensive First-Teams+2nd-Teams. For me, his 11 Top-2 Rankings AT CENTER; outrank MJ's 9 Top Rankings at Shooting Guard.
Partial Case Closed!

7) FRANCHISE TURN-AROUND: KAJ joined the Milwaukee Bucks at the beginning of that franchise's 2nd year of existence. Immediately they went from being THE worst team in the League to one of the best, in only his first year. MJ did NOT do this for the Bulls. In KAJ's 2nd year, (and the Bucks' 3rd of existence), he led them to the Chip! MJ did not come close; nor has any other player EVER done anything similar. KAJ continued to keep the Bucks among the elite teams during all 6 years (his first 6) of his stay there. MJ's first 6 years resulted in nothing in comparison.
Partial Case Closed!

8) MJ QUIT (FOR 4.8 SEASONS); KAJ NEVER QUIT: Due to open and massive gambling, MJ was faced with the alternatives of either "voluntarily quitting" or being banned for life from the NBA (and all his accomplishments being erased). MJ "quit" because of his own damned fault. This is, in my book, a HUGE MARK AGAINST MJ. Then he quit for another 3 year period (4.8 potentially PRIME seasons thrown away due to his own fault). KAJ never quit. Partial Case Closed!

9) ADVANCED STATS: KAJ ABSOLUTELY DOMINATED MJ IN WIN-SHARES (and WINNING IS the name of the game!): 27.7% more total career WS. KAJ's 3 consecutive years of 71-73 absolutely crush MJ's 3 consecutive years of 88-90 (all 3 of KAJ's are better than MJ's best single year!).
In DEFENSIVE WIN-SHARES, KAJ is #3 All-Time, MJ is #21. KAJ has 50% more DWS !.
In OFFENSVIE WIN-SHARES, KAJ is #1 All-Time, MJ is #4. KAJ has almost 20% more OWS!
In WS/48, MJ is #1 All-Time, KAJ is #7. But MJ is less than 10% better in this stat. (IF he had played as many seasons as KAJ, (6.8 more full seasons than MJ actually played); almost for sure, KAJ would have ended up ahead of MJ in this stat too.
In Season by Season WS:
Best Season: KAJ (1972) 25.4 WS; MJ (1988) 21.2 WS … KAJ = 20% better
Best 3 Consecutive Seasons: KAJ (71-73) 69.6 WS; MJ (88-90) 60.0 … KAJ = 16% better
Best 5 Consecutive Seasons: KAJ (70-74) 101.8 WS; MJ (88-92) 98.0 … KAJ = 4% better

In PER (which downplays DEFENSE; where KAJ clearly dominates MJ), MJ is #1, KAJ is #11. MJ is 13.5% better (though this too would have almost assuredly been brought lower ). But KAJ’s 15 first years vs MJ’s 15 years: KAJ 389.2; MJ 410.6, so MJ is 7.6 % better (BUT these were not consecutive years in MJ’s case).

10) HYPE: MJ TOTALLY DOMINATED KAJ: Only here does MJ clearly dominate KAJ. During KAJ's first 10 years, the NBA was suffering thru it's worst 10-year period ever, publicity-wise. This was due to drugs (and the competition from the ABA). Everybody who played during the decade of the 1970's is cast in a much more negative light because of these things. Then, KAJ was one terrible interview; the polar opposite of the MJ. Is it any wonder, especially for those who never experienced KAJ's 15++ years of total dominance; the MJ-HYPE overwhelms the KAJ anti-hype.

I remember when MJ QUIT for the first time; he was already being hailed as the GOAT (with only 3 Chips! and only 8 Great Years (HALF of what KAJ had had). That's what SUPER-HYPE can do for MJ.
Partial "Case" Closed!

Most of you may not like it at all; but at least I have had the guts to make a solid case that somebody (KAJ in particular) had a better career.

JordansBulls
06-26-2014, 10:35 PM
Kareem didn't have a better career, not when his teammate has more finals mvp's than he did. Maybe had Kareem had 4 finals mvp's you could make the case. Can't have a better career than someone else if you allegedly played with another top 3 player all time and still didn't even end up with more titles than another player you are chasing.
How is it possible for a team to have the #1 and #2 players all time but end up with less titles than guys that are in the GOAT conversation despite playing in a conference where in the playoffs the average team was 42-40 for a 7 year stretch?

ManRam
06-26-2014, 10:58 PM
Kareem didn't have a better career, not when his teammate has more finals mvp's than he did. Maybe had Kareem had 4 finals mvp's you could make the case. Can't have a better career than someone else if you allegedly played with another top 3 player all time and still didn't even end up with more titles than another player you are chasing.
How is it possible for a team to have the #1 and #2 players all time but end up with less titles than guys that are in the GOAT conversation despite playing in a conference where in the playoffs the average team was 42-40 for a 7 year stretch?

Magic was in his prime when they were teamed up, Kareem was in his 30s :shrug: I think Kareem was clearly the better player in his prime, just didn't have the teams Magic had...

Jeffy25
06-26-2014, 11:39 PM
Kareem didn't have a better career, not when his teammate has more finals mvp's than he did. Maybe had Kareem had 4 finals mvp's you could make the case. Can't have a better career than someone else if you allegedly played with another top 3 player all time and still didn't even end up with more titles than another player you are chasing.
How is it possible for a team to have the #1 and #2 players all time but end up with less titles than guys that are in the GOAT conversation despite playing in a conference where in the playoffs the average team was 42-40 for a 7 year stretch?

I find it mind blowing how NBA fans claim things like these accolades as what it takes to define greatness

NBA Finals MVP? Seriously? A voted on, subjective award, voted on by fallible human beings years ago that didn't necessarily know what made a player great/valuable. And to fault a player for a short series, for not being the best player on their own team for a title run.

And to penalize a player for even winning and helping his team win....and to do it when he is over the hill.

I just find it crazy town logic.

Instead of focusing on the players entire career, everything they did, regular season and playoffs, etc.

ManRam
06-26-2014, 11:42 PM
I find it mind blowing how NBA fans claim things like these accolades as what it takes to define greatness

NBA Finals MVP? Seriously? A voted on, subjective award, voted on by fallible human beings years ago that didn't necessarily know what made a player great/valuable. And to fault a player for a short series, for not being the best player on their own team for a title run.

And to penalize a player for even winning and helping his team win....and to do it when he is over the hill.

I just find it crazy town logic.

Instead of focusing on the players entire career, everything they did, regular season and playoffs, etc.

Kawhi Leonard just won a Finals MVP. That should tell people something...

Jeffy25
06-26-2014, 11:43 PM
A HUGE CASE CAN BE MADE THAT KAJ'S CAREER WAS GREATER THAN MJ'S

Since the end of the Finals, I've spent 100+ hours, in preparation for these GOAT discussions to studying two NBA very-related things:
1) INDIVIDUAL GREATNESS (especially focusing on comparing All-NBA 1st-Team, 2nd-Team & 3rd-Team Selections);

2) TEAM GREATNESS (especially focusing on the size (number of teams) of the NBL, BAA, NBA and ABA AND how the increases in the number of teams has affected the Win-Loss records (and our perception of how great the teams with the best W-L records really were).

I'm close to done with both studies and should post each within the next 2-3 days.

Meanwhile, I missed this thread and vote.
I would have voted for KAJ as #1.
I've begun to lay out my NUMEROUS reasons in the thread about GOAT #2.

Contrary to what many posters have stated here; a quite convincing case can be made that KAJ was better than MJ.

1) PEAK: KAJ's PEAK (5-7 SUPER YEARS) was better than MJ's. KAJ had 3 of the top 7 WinShare years ever; MJ's best year is NOT even in the Top 8 best years ever. Partial Case Closed!

2) PRIME: KAJ'S PRIME: (15 Great Years) was better than MJ's 11 Great Years. 4 additional Great Years is a lot! Partial Case Closed!

3) ERA-DOMINANCE: KAJ was MORE dominant of his 20 year career period than MJ was of the 19 years his career spanned. Partial Case Closed!

4) POSITION-DOMINANCE: Everyone rightly agrees that (until recently, post-Shaq) the Center position has always been, by far the most dominant. KAJ dominated the other centers during his 20 years MORE than MJ did the other SG's of his 19 year career-spanning period. AND the Centers of KAJ's 2 decades were far superior to the SG's of MJ's. Partial Case Closed!


5) PLAY-OFF SUCCESS: KAJ made 10 Finals in his first 19 years; MJ made 6 Finals during the 19 years his career spanned (he does NOT get positive credit for years he quit !; he DOES get negative credit for quitting!) Besides them both winning the Finals 6 times each; KAJ made it thru TO the Finals 4 other times; while MJ's teams failed to make it to the Finals in his 4 other best Play-Off years). Overall, KAJ's teams did FAR better in the Play-Offs than did MJ's. Partial Case Closed!

6) DEFENSE: True, MJ had more All-NBA Defensive First-Teams (9 Times); BUT, that's comparing the defensively relatively very weak position of Shooting Guard TO the #1 most-important defensive position: Center. KAJ had 11 All-NBA Defensive First-Teams+2nd-Teams. For me, his 11 Top-2 Rankings AT CENTER; outrank MJ's 9 Top Rankings at Shooting Guard.
Partial Case Closed!

7) FRANCHISE TURN-AROUND: KAJ joined the Milwaukee Bucks at the beginning of that franchise's 2nd year of existence. Immediately they went from being THE worst team in the League to one of the best, in only his first year. MJ did NOT do this for the Bulls. In KAJ's 2nd year, (and the Bucks' 3rd of existence), he led them to the Chip! MJ did not come close; nor has any other player EVER done anything similar. KAJ continued to keep the Bucks among the elite teams during all 6 years (his first 6) of his stay there. MJ's first 6 years resulted in nothing in comparison.
Partial Case Closed!

8) MJ QUIT (FOR 4.8 SEASONS); KAJ NEVER QUIT: Due to open and massive gambling, MJ was faced with the alternatives of either "voluntarily quitting" or being banned for life from the NBA (and all his accomplishments being erased). MJ "quit" because of his own damned fault. This is, in my book, a HUGE MARK AGAINST MJ. Then he quit for another 3 year period (4.8 potentially PRIME seasons thrown away due to his own fault). KAJ never quit. Partial Case Closed!

9) ADVANCED STATS: KAJ ABSOLUTELY DOMINATED MJ IN WIN-SHARES (and WINNING IS the name of the game!): 27.7% more total career WS. KAJ's 3 consecutive years of 71-73 absolutely crush MJ's 3 consecutive years of 88-90 (all 3 of KAJ's are better than MJ's best single year!).
In DEFENSIVE WIN-SHARES, KAJ is #3 All-Time, MJ is #21. KAJ has 50% more DWS !.
In OFFENSVIE WIN-SHARES, KAJ is #1 All-Time, MJ is #4. KAJ has almost 20% more OWS!
In WS/48, MJ is #1 All-Time, KAJ is #7. But MJ is less than 10% better in this stat. (IF he had played as many seasons as KAJ, (6.8 more full seasons than MJ actually played); almost for sure, KAJ would have ended up ahead of MJ in this stat too.
In Season by Season WS:
Best Season: KAJ (1972) 25.4 WS; MJ (1988) 21.2 WS … KAJ = 20% better
Best 3 Consecutive Seasons: KAJ (71-73) 69.6 WS; MJ (88-90) 60.0 … KAJ = 16% better
Best 5 Consecutive Seasons: KAJ (70-74) 101.8 WS; MJ (88-92) 98.0 … KAJ = 4% better

In PER (which downplays DEFENSE; where KAJ clearly dominates MJ), MJ is #1, KAJ is #11. MJ is 13.5% better (though this too would have almost assuredly been brought lower ). But KAJ’s 15 first years vs MJ’s 15 years: KAJ 389.2; MJ 410.6, so MJ is 7.6 % better (BUT these were not consecutive years in MJ’s case).

10) HYPE: MJ TOTALLY DOMINATED KAJ: Only here does MJ clearly dominate KAJ. During KAJ's first 10 years, the NBA was suffering thru it's worst 10-year period ever, publicity-wise. This was due to drugs (and the competition from the ABA). Everybody who played during the decade of the 1970's is cast in a much more negative light because of these things. Then, KAJ was one terrible interview; the polar opposite of the MJ. Is it any wonder, especially for those who never experienced KAJ's 15++ years of total dominance; the MJ-HYPE overwhelms the KAJ anti-hype.

I remember when MJ QUIT for the first time; he was already being hailed as the GOAT (with only 3 Chips! and only 8 Great Years (HALF of what KAJ had had). That's what SUPER-HYPE can do for MJ.
Partial "Case" Closed!

Most of you may not like it at all; but at least I have had the guts to make a solid case that somebody (KAJ in particular) had a better career.

Fantastic post. Informative too.

Jeffy25
06-26-2014, 11:46 PM
Kawhi Leonard just won a Finals MVP. That should tell people something...

Duncan can't be best ever now, hell knock him out of the top 10 for not being the best player on his team for this title....hell, strip him of the damn title!

ThuglifeJ
06-26-2014, 11:55 PM
Kawhi Leonard just won a Finals MVP. That should tell people something...

lol what ignorance. So because a supporting player in a team system was able to break out in the finals and get finals MVP means the award means little or hold it against Duncan?

HA

Jeffy25
06-27-2014, 12:20 AM
lol what ignorance. So because a supporting player in a team system was able to break out in the finals and get finals MVP means the award means little or hold it against Duncan?

HA

We are being facetious and illustrating how pointless the award is....which is it is.

ThuglifeJ
06-27-2014, 01:34 AM
Yes, Michael Jordan may have become the greatest NBA player of all-time. When Jordan started to peak and win those championships, he truly was the best basketball player the world has seen. But the greatest basketball player, talking an entirety of a career, was Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

and why does this get ignored.

He was the greatest college player of all-time, the greatest high-school player of all-time, and an argument could be made for him as the greatest NBA player of all-time (between him and MJ obviously)



Don't believe me?

NBA Championships- 6 (as much as MJ)
NBA MVPs- 6 (one more than Jordan and Russell)
All-Star selections- 19 (most ever)
All-NBA teams- 15 (most ever)

Career NBA Totals
Points- 38,387 (most ever)
Blocks- 3,189 (most ever *4 years of blk statistic not recorded)
Rebounds- 17,440 (3rd)

averaged over 21 PPG for 17 NBA seasons..
35/16.6/4.6 in '72
24.6 ppg, 11.2 rpg, 3.6 apg, 2.5 bpg for NBA career.

he also made the playoffs every year from start to finish except 3 years from transition from Milwaukee to LA Lakers (his only two teams he played for, both weak teams before his arrival). He made the finals 10 times.


This all is clearly over-the-top impressive..but you can still make cases for other NBA legends. However look at his legend even BEFORE all this.

3 NCAA titles (Jordan 1)
26.4 PPG (highest college scoring average all-time), with 29.0 ppg one year and 61 points in a college game (all-time record).
Naismith player of the year, 2 time USBWA college player of the year, 3 time first-team all American, 3 time Most Oustanding player in Ncaa tournament, 2 time college player of the year.
Rule changes were also made from his dominance (Alcindor Rules).

But this is all just resume talk, what about any sweet storylines? -go look up the story of Kareem as a freshman (when college freshman weren't allowed to play) dominating the varsity team.


KAJ led his highschool team to 3 straight championships, with a 71 game winning streak. Having a 79-2 overall record. the greatest high-school player of all-time.


the 'Skyhook' is also the most unstoppable shot in the history of the game of basketball, in which no one has been able to replicate (while nearly all of MJ's moves have been replicated).

and on top of all this...any sort of 'help' from the NBA officials is something only stars of KAJ's time would dream of..
I'd advise people go learn more about Kareem on their own, because the accomplishments are endless.



You can argue who's the greatest NBA player of all-time (with Kareem easily in the argument for it) but when it comes to everything basketball KAJ, also known as Lou Alcindor, is the GOAT.

----------------------

I reposted this thread because of the recent PSD #2 best player ever poll. While KAJ is currently winning, I think we should really push the knowledge that he belongs here and it shouldn't come into question..I see KAJ out of plenty of top 5s at times.. I don't think Magic, Wilt, Bird can compete with KAJ's spot..yet you see it often. Heck you even see Russell at #2 sometimes.

Aust
06-27-2014, 01:37 AM
He was the greatest college player of all-time, the greatest high-school player of all-time, and an argument could be made for him as the greatest NBA player of all-time (between MJ obviously and Bill Russell. maybe Magic and Wilt)

Wilt Chamberlain is overrated.

ThuglifeJ
06-27-2014, 01:40 AM
Wilt Chamberlain is overrated.

I edited that section because in the past year I've changed my views on Wilt and Russell. I only put them into that consideration at first because of their reputation to always be top 5 and resumes/history. After more research and knowledge on it, I dont put Russell in my top 5 and don't consider Wilt top 1 or 2...but his dominance was definitely deserving of a 5 spot imo.. but that's a different topic I'm talking #1 or 2. Which I think KAJ >>>> Wilt

MTar786
06-27-2014, 01:51 AM
KAJ was imo the GOAT.. but I don't argue people who would take jordan either.

Chronz
06-27-2014, 01:57 AM
Wilt would have eaten him up for breakfast if not for his knee injury, just like so many other brutes did twig boy.

Chronz
06-27-2014, 02:09 AM
I find it mind blowing how NBA fans claim things like these accolades as what it takes to define greatness

NBA Finals MVP? Seriously? A voted on, subjective award, voted on by fallible human beings years ago that didn't necessarily know what made a player great/valuable. And to fault a player for a short series, for not being the best player on their own team for a title run.

And to penalize a player for even winning and helping his team win....and to do it when he is over the hill.

I just find it crazy town logic.

Instead of focusing on the players entire career, everything they did, regular season and playoffs, etc.

JB doesn't focus on context, he focuses on raw tallies. Never mind the fact that voters have already apologized to Kareem for being forced to vote for Magic Johnson simply because the NBA pressured them into it.

Jeffy25
06-27-2014, 02:16 AM
PSD's NBA forum is the only place where you find people beating up players for making it to the Finals, but either not winning it, or not claiming the Finals MVP.


Winning your conference repeatedly, in any era (hell in any sport), is an accomplishment....a damn fine one too.

But only here, will you be put down for doing so and not winning it all every time and getting the Finals MVP every time too.

ThuglifeJ
06-27-2014, 02:17 AM
Wilt would have eaten him up for breakfast if not for his knee injury, just like so many other brutes did twig boy.

HAH. KAJ had a way longer career. People always fail to see part of my point, that KAJ completely dominated from high school championships to college championships to NBA (for an extra long time).

Bad knee, Old or not. KAJ still proved he had it back then anyways.
In their first games vs eachother, Wilt averaged 22.8 ppg and 17.6 rebounds, while Kareem averaged 26.0 ppg and 15.6 rebounds.
In 1972 season, Kareem outscored Wilt 201-70 in their five regular season games. In the six 1972 playoff games, Kareem outscored Wilt 202-67


I dont care about w.e you want to throw at me, age, w.e., if he really could have eaten KAJ up he would no matter what. I remember watching Shaq as a CAV go at it vs Dwight and hold his ground to make a statement.

JEDean89
06-27-2014, 02:17 AM
kareem had the best offensive move of all time that has not been replicated. i still take Jordan over him but I'd probably choose Kareem to start a franchise with.

ThuglifeJ
06-27-2014, 02:19 AM
I mean a prime Wilt could man handle almost anybody. But when it comes down to a full career, KAJ beats anyone. And seriously as great as Wilt was, you'd think he'd win more than 2 championships. Granted 2 championships is still a lot, he should have won at least 4.. KAJ had 6

Chronz
06-27-2014, 02:24 AM
You are either exaggerating
Maybe alil.


But based on that logic, how far down do you put him? If we're talking "elite two-way" guys in an all-time discussion, there are a freaking ton.
Elite 2-way guys with long lasting peaks. Magic was so efficient offensively that we obviously need several years of ridiculous 2-way play. To give you an idea, I dont consider Hakeem to have provided that kind of play throughout most of his career so in his case, I could see the vote for Magic. Dream at his best tho, better than Magic IMO. Too bad his defensive/offensive peak didn't intertwine much.


Obviously Lebron, Wilt, Hakeem, Duncan, Shaq, Kobe and West belong in that discussion. Then there's guys like Bird, Oscar, Moses and Dr. J, who weren't all-time great defenders, but weren't slouches either. And then you go down further and there's two-way guys like KG, Wade, Robinson, Pippen, Stockton, Paul etc. And we could go further down than that.
You went too far down once you get to Doc J.


I just don't know at what point his offensive dominance outweighs his defensive deficiencies, and I don't think its fair to say that he "shouldn't be mentioned until the elite 2-way players are off the court," because there's an insane amount of them. Just because they weren't good defenders, should we just throw out guys like Barkley, Dirk, Barry, Nash and Gervin while we're at it?
True.


I thought Moses was a great all time defender?
He wasn't always motivated. Moses was the worlds greatest enigma, a talented hard worker who underachieved because he wasn't overly skilled or dedicated to conditioning.


That may be true, but this is about All-Time Greatness and your not factoring in that other than Jordan and Kareem, Magic has by far the best resume and accolades.

Why would I factor in ur opinion? The absolute lack of defensive recognition only cements mine here. Im not swayed by blind glances at team success.

Chronz
06-27-2014, 02:28 AM
Kareem didn't have a better career, not when his teammate has more finals mvp's than he did.
Why not? And what do you do about the voters who were pressured into voting for Magic when some of them wanted to vote KAJ?


Maybe had Kareem had 4 finals mvp's you could make the case. Can't have a better career than someone else if you allegedly played with another top 3 player all time and still didn't even end up with more titles than another player you are chasing.
Sure you can.


How is it possible for a team to have the #1 and #2 players all time but end up with less titles than guys that are in the GOAT conversation despite playing in a conference where in the playoffs the average team was 42-40 for a 7 year stretch?
Because they played players that were higher up the totem pole than the ones the GOAT faced. MJ had by far the best teams in the league, mostly due to his presence but still far more talented than what most of his closest competitors had.

Raps08-09 Champ
06-27-2014, 02:33 AM
I was referring to the 60's Celtic squads... Not 80's.

I know that. You are penalizing Russell for playing with stacked rosters but no one else was more stacked than 80's Lakers either yet no penalizing Magic who walked into a team with HOF.

Shlumpledink
06-27-2014, 02:33 AM
In terms of changing basketball, KAJ had the biggest impact on the sport.

Avenged
06-27-2014, 02:39 AM
Yeah there's a thread for this always. Try using it.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-27-2014, 02:56 AM
Wilt would have eaten him up for breakfast if not for his knee injury, just like so many other brutes did twig boy.

Maybe, but KAJ is undoubtedly the second best player to ever play the game. The op is correct in the majority of his post. No one besides MJ has a more polished career.

amos1er
06-27-2014, 07:06 AM
Why would I factor in ur opinion? The absolute lack of defensive recognition only cements mine here. Im not swayed by blind glances at team success.

Magic spearheaded the Showtime Era. The teams success was with Magic at the helm for the majority. He deserves the most credit. I will give you that Kareem deserved the Finals MVP in 1980, but other than that, Magic was what allowed Kareem to win four more titles and extend his career as long as he did... The bulk of his winning accolades. Without those four titles, Kareem might not even be considered top 5. Kareem owes a lot of his success to Magic... Who was the greatest player for the franchise in which Kareem won the majority of his titles. Magic even got his statue far before Kareem at Staples Center and Kareem had to lobby for his... Just goes to show you who the Lakers valued more.

amos1er
06-27-2014, 07:06 AM
I know that. You are penalizing Russell for playing with stacked rosters but no one else was more stacked than 80's Lakers either yet no penalizing Magic who walked into a team with HOF.

Magic had competition... Russell didn't.

amos1er
06-27-2014, 07:15 AM
Soo...a bunch of unmeasurable intangibles for magic?

If intangibles mean that Magic won more titles against greater competition, than I don't really know what your definition of "intangibles" is.


I'm not saying Lebron is greater than magic all time.

I agree... Than why are we still having this debate...


I'm dismissing you saying he is the second best all time...and doing so with nothing to support your assertions other than intangibles that can't be measured.

I can measure the fact that he won titles 42% of the years he played in the NBA... No one else can boast that accolade. He also made the finals 75% of the years he played in the NBA... Yet another accolade no one else can boast.

I don't really think it's debatable to say that Magic won more titles against greater competition than Lebron did in the same amount of years and minutes played. I don't get how you consider that an intangible. Even though Magic has him beat in those as well.

amos1er
06-27-2014, 07:27 AM
PSD's NBA forum is the only place where you find people beating up players for making it to the Finals, but either not winning it, or not claiming the Finals MVP.


Winning your conference repeatedly, in any era (hell in any sport), is an accomplishment....a damn fine one too.

But only here, will you be put down for doing so and not winning it all every time and getting the Finals MVP every time too.

Making the finals in the Eastern Conference of the Modern Era is not an accomplishment. If you really consider it that remarkable, than why not hoist Jason Kidd and Allen Iverson upon a throne the way you do Lebron. AI took a garbage team to the finals as well, only he won a game in the finals avoiding a sweep unlike Lebron and not to mention against one of the greatest teams of All-Time; a team that went 15-1 in the Playoffs that season. Kidd did it twice. Lebron once with a sweep in the finals. Honestly, I give AI and Kidd more props... Don't see why you are all not on their jock as well. I'm sure a prime AI and Kidd could have won it all in 2011 in place of Lebron with that squad... Yet you all don't claim them to be top ten players of All-Time. Perhaps the Media Bandwagon has poisoned too many minds to count by now.

amos1er
06-27-2014, 07:51 AM
Instead of fighting amongst ourselves over meaningless drivel that we all likely won't change our minds on... We should instead be lobbing against Russell being voted as high into the top ten as he was last time around. From my time on here, I know that most of the knowledgable posters on here feel as I do (that he should be closer to ten than one) and we should therefore pull our collective efforts into banning together to present arguments so that this doesn't happen again. Pretty sure we can all agree on that despite our past differences.

hidalgo
06-27-2014, 07:51 AM
Magic Johnson #2 all time (a beyond unique talent. ultimate teammate, clutch, a tad better than avg defense 5.5 out of 10 i'd say (avg 5). like Jordan he'd be great in any era. luckily we saw #1 VS #2 all time both in their prime in the 1991 nba finals. Michael VS Magic). high IQ player, he'd exploit any mismatch, & post up any smaller player to death relentlessly, fierce competitor, triple double machine

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar #3 (very close to a tie with Magic, but Magic is what made the Lakers truly special)

amos1er
06-27-2014, 07:53 AM
Magic Johnson #2 all time (a beyond unique talent. like Jordan he'd be great in any era. luckily we saw #1 VS #2 all time both in their prime in the 1991 nba finals. Michael VS Magic)

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar #3 (very close to a tie with Magic, but Magic is what made the Lakers truly special)

Wow... We actually agree on something.

amos1er
06-27-2014, 07:58 AM
Magic Johnson #2 all time (a beyond unique talent. like Jordan he'd be great in any era. luckily we saw #1 VS #2 all time both in their prime in the 1991 nba finals. Michael VS Magic)

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar #3 (very close to a tie with Magic, but Magic is what made the Lakers truly special)
Yet you didn't even bother to cast a vote for him.

THE MTL
06-27-2014, 08:04 AM
Magic Johnson for sure.

hidalgo
06-27-2014, 08:08 AM
Wow... We actually agree on something.alright alright alright :)

yea, Magic was unreal out there

hidalgo
06-27-2014, 08:10 AM
Yet you didn't even bother to cast a vote for him.
i voted for Magic

amos1er
06-27-2014, 08:19 AM
i voted for Magic

My bad... I see that now.

amos1er
06-27-2014, 08:20 AM
Magic Johnson for sure.

Cast your vote... BTW, nice sig.

bucketss
06-27-2014, 10:56 AM
magic... than kareem, although i feel these guys should have been 1 and 2

Chronz
06-27-2014, 12:47 PM
HAH. KAJ had a way longer career. People always fail to see part of my point, that KAJ completely dominated from high school championships to college championships to NBA (for an extra long time).
Agreed. Now back to the NBA.


Bad knee, Old or not. KAJ still proved he had it back then anyways.
Who said he didn't?


In their first games vs eachother, Wilt averaged 22.8 ppg and 17.6 rebounds, while Kareem averaged 26.0 ppg and 15.6 rebounds.
Considering they only met once before Wilt was lost to a career altering knee injury, this really has nothing to do with what I was saying.


In 1972 season, Kareem outscored Wilt 201-70 in their five regular season games. In the six 1972 playoff games, Kareem outscored Wilt 202-67
I dont care about w.e you want to throw at me, age, w.e., if he really could have eaten KAJ up he would no matter what. I remember watching Shaq as a CAV go at it vs Dwight and hold his ground to make a statement.
You're prolly too young to know this but Wilt made a statement too, he utterly terrified KAJ to the point where his own coach said he was forced into nothing but fadeaways. Wilt was so heroic that the MILWAUKEE crowd cheered him on in 1 of their series. The press deemed it a battle won by Wilt, not that I agree with that conclusion (its like saying Russ beat Wilt all those years) but he did up his game relative to where he was at in his career. So if you're pretending like Shaq did something vs Dwight worth discussing, then Wilt did that and then some.

The more you know.....

Chronz
06-27-2014, 12:50 PM
I mean a prime Wilt could man handle almost anybody. But when it comes down to a full career, KAJ beats anyone.
Sure, if you prefer a lesser player who was liable to getting punked by the brutes.


And seriously as great as Wilt was, you'd think he'd win more than 2 championships. Granted 2 championships is still a lot, he should have won at least 4.. KAJ had 6

Based on what? Wilt may not have had the chips but he was his teams best player in every one of them and he would have never lost series in the fashion that Kareem did (by getting outplayed/out muscled in the paint).

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-27-2014, 01:40 PM
Yo Amo, do you have magic over Kareem? The only reason why I have Kareem over magic is the length of time they played. Magic had a rather short career compared to Kareem

amos1er
06-27-2014, 09:05 PM
Yo Amo, do you have magic over Kareem? The only reason why I have Kareem over magic is the length of time they played. Magic had a rather short career compared to Kareem

I do have Magic above him. Though Kareem definitely had the longevity factor. It's close really, but I give Magic the nod because he was the one who truly spearheaded Showtime... Where Kareem won the majority of his titles.

Same logic applies to why I have Shaq ahead of Kobe All-Time... Though not by much.

Pablonovi
06-27-2014, 09:55 PM
magic... than kareem, although i feel these guys should have been 1 and 2

Hey bucketss,
I've got KAJ #1, Magic #2, MJ #3, Wilt #4

Pablonovi
06-27-2014, 09:57 PM
Hey ManRam,
A suggestion:
Why not link to the next discussion in these earlier threads - so people can find the next one(s) easier?

slashsnake
06-28-2014, 05:59 AM
I do have Magic above him. Though Kareem definitely had the longevity factor. It's close really, but I give Magic the nod because he was the one who truly spearheaded Showtime... Where Kareem won the majority of his titles.

Same logic applies to why I have Shaq ahead of Kobe All-Time... Though not by much.

Interesting, that one is a lot tougher. I mean Kareem was a 5 time league MVP, a finals MVP, multiple time all 1st team and all 1st defensive team... before he ever played with Magic. Magic did have one more finals MVP, but I'd say the toughest of any of their finals would have been Kareems first, but that's just my opinion there.

But Magic does make a compelling argument there.

slashsnake
06-28-2014, 06:38 AM
You're prolly too young to know this but Wilt made a statement too, he utterly terrified KAJ to the point where his own coach said he was forced into nothing but fadeaways. Wilt was so heroic that the MILWAUKEE crowd cheered him on in 1 of their series. The press deemed it a battle won by Wilt, not that I agree with that conclusion (its like saying Russ beat Wilt all those years) but he did up his game relative to where he was at in his career. So if you're pretending like Shaq did something vs Dwight worth discussing, then Wilt did that and then some.

The more you know.....


Which series was this? Kareems 2nd year maybe? Wilt had him in a few games, Kareem had wilt in a couple. Up till that point those two were about 50/50. Still 25 points and 18 boards with 5 blocks a game vs. an all time great in your 2nd year isn't too shabby.

They met again the following year. The Lakers won in 6 games, but Wilt was the 10 point a game scorer and Kareem was the guy scoring 34 a game against him in that series. It was by far Wilts worst series of the playoffs. Maybe he was terrified. But he was also outscoring wilt 104-23 over a 3 game stretch as well. He also put up a 50 point game on Wilt earlier in that season too. He was dunking on Wilt, straight up in his face in that series. He upped his game not in that series but the next one. Once free of Kareem his scoring doubled and he won a finals MVP.

But wow... talk about a career. Kareem played Wilt Chamberlain and Hakeem Olajuwon.


And I wonder if it wasn't overblown. Like the stories of how Jordan feared the Pistons... Granted Jordan was a lot further into his NBA career, and Wilt was a lot more intimidating, but you still had those same types of stories there, which were much more media hype than reality.

hidalgo
06-28-2014, 08:50 AM
i respect Kareem's college titles, but not nearly as much as say 1979-now college titles. there were only 23 teams in the tournament back in Kareem's college days in thee 60s (MJ's college time there was over twice as many, & far tougher competition) & in 12 years UCLA won 10 out of 12 titles. come on man, not possible since the late 70s. 60s Celtics pulled that unrealistic stuff too, that's a 60s basketball feat only (although i think the Bulls could have maybe won 9 straight, we'll never know, but they had the GOAT Jordy Michaels. but really i'm talking college here, the nba isn't as tough to dominate with the right team), that kinda weird 60s stuff, & averaging 50 ppg by Wilt, etc. 28 RPG, etc. odd stuff

only 2 teams since UCLA won their 10th in 12 years have even won 2 straight (Duke & florida) UCLA won 7 straight & 10 out of 12 years. that's better than the woman's u conn team's recent history.

JordansBulls
06-28-2014, 09:57 AM
Hey bucketss,
I've got KAJ #1, Magic #2, MJ #3, Wilt #4

um no. Not possible for two teammates to be #1 and #2 all time when they don't even have the most rings or more rings than guys they are chasing.

Jordan is the only player in the top 20 all time that is undefeated in series with HCA.


HCA(50+)/non-50
Jordan: 14-0 / 10-0
Magic: 9-2 / 20-1


Jordan's teams had HCA in 24 playoff series throughout his career, and they were 24-0 in all of them. Thats not an achievement? His teams were the favorites 24 times, and never once did they get upset.
You can't say that for pretty much any other superstar that has played in that many series.

Does that make him the automatic GOAT?
No, of course not cause there are other things to take into consideration, but IMO it definitely makes his case stronger.


Magic played with a guy that is ranked ahead of him all time in Kareem. How is that going to propel you to be the best when your teammate by most is considered greater?



Playoff Series Record with HCA against teams with a +2 SRS:

W-L PCT
1) MJ 15-0 100.0%
Magic 15-2 88.2%





Playoff Series Record with HCA against teams with a +4 SRS:

W-L PCT
1) MJ 11-0 100.0%
Magic 6-1 85.7%


Magic was great, but IMO how can you be considered the best of all time if you were not great on both ends?

As for why Jordan is usually the majority pick for GOAT over those two in particular, there are a couple of reasons:


- Statistical dominance. Though Magic and Bird both put up otherworldly numbers, Jordan's production-- and not just in terms of scoring-- was stratospheric for a non-center. Jordan's average EFF (a cumulative stat that takes into account all the statistical categories and measures overall statistical impact) upon his retirement in 1993 was an astonishing 32.9. And that's an 8 season average. By comparison, Magic only topped 32.9 on one occasion, and even then just barely (33.3 EFF in '88-'89). Bird topped 32.9 on a few occasions (with EFF's of 34.3, 34.4, and 34.0), but his average EFF from 1980-1990 (not counting his last two seasons due to injuries) was "only" 30.4. Jordan's single season high in EFF was 37.0, and he topped 34 two other times as well (34.6 and 35.1). And Jordan led in PER 7x, while Bird and Magic did so only once and MJ has the highest PER ever recorded at 27.91 with Shaq being 2nd.



- Achievements, such as MVP's, Finals MVP's, DPOY award, and first-team and defensive first-team selections. Jordan had 5 MVP's to Magic and Bird's 3 apiece; he had 6 Finals MVP's to Magic's 3 and Bird's 2. He had a DPOY award that Magic and Bird could never hope to get. He had 10 all-NBA first-team selections to Magic's 9 and Bird's 9. Yes, Magic would have had more had he not retired and Bird would've had more if not for injuries, but Jordan would have also had 2 more had he not retired in '93, and likely a third had he not broken his foot in '86, so it's no use playing the "what if" game. Jordan also had 9 defensive first-team selections to Magic's none and Bird's 3 defensive second-team selections.


- Championships. Simply put, Jordan (6) has more than either Bird (3) or Magic (5). Yes, Bird and Magic had to beat each other for rings, which precluded either of them from getting more, but they each also had tons more help than Jordan did. Regardless, arguments about league strength aside, Jordan just has more, and his period of dominance was longer than Magic or Bird's. Also, this is only one aspect of the overall picture, so even if you feel that MJ's 6 rings don't hold as much weight as Magic's 5 (though I personally feel that the strength of Magic's supporting cast relative to Jordan's is enough to counterbalance the supposedly "weaker era" and make them relatively equal accomplishments)-- but if you disagree, then just realize that this is only one aspect of a larger picture.


- Overall skill. All three were among the top 5 or 6 most skilled players of all-time imo, and each had advantages over the others in various areas. Bird was the best rebounder of the bunch, Magic the best passer, Jordan the best scorer and defender. However, in their respective primes, the edges that Bird and Magic had on Jordan in these categories is not as large as the edge that Jordan had on Magic and Bird in his pet categories. For example, in his prime, Bird was capable of getting 13-17 rebounds on any given night, while in his prime, Jordan was capable of grabbing 11-14 rebounds on any given night. Magic in his prime could dish out 13-17 assists on any given night, whereas Jordan in his prime could dish out 10-14 assists on any given night. However, scoring-wise, Jordan was good for 45-55 on any given night while Bird was good for about 35-40 or so on any given night, and Magic "only" about 30-35.

Also defensively, Jordan was capable of disrupting entire teams' offenses in a way that neither Magic nor Bird were ever remotely capable of; he was also capable of playing lock-down defense, which neither of them really could, and he did so fairly consistently. I have a game vs. Boston on DVD from '88 where Jordan has 8 steals at the half, and Boston literally could not run the plays they wanted to because of Jordan's presence on the court. Bird looked exasperated. He could almost singlehandedly take opposing big men out of the game with his help defense from up top and the weak side. At any rate, the gap in defense between Jordan and Magic/Bird is much more significant than Bird's edge in rebounding and Magic's edge in passing in their respective primes imo. At the very least, these 3 are a wash skill-wise.


- Clutch play and dominance. Magic was clutch, to be certain, even if his clutchness often manifested itself in different ways than MJ's clutchness usually did. Bird was, obviously, a top 3 clutch player all-time (along w/Jordan and West imo), so he's in that conversation. Still, Jordan is generally considered to be the most clutch of the three, though it's not a huge advantage by any means. While all three were capable of beating you with the shot, rebound, or pass (some better than others in each category, but all capable), Jordan was a clutch defender as well, and could come up with the key block or steal or denial of a shot attempt by his man when it counted to a far greater degree than either Bird or Magic. Bird and Magic made up for their comparative lack of defensive ability with their canniness (e.g., Bird's steal vs. Detroit in the ECF), but it wasn't nearly on the same level as Jordan. Also, of the two, only Bird approaches Jordan's dominance over the league in terms of "who is the biggest bad guy? Who don't you want to piss off?" Bird was a bad, bad man. Jordan was badder, and he maintained that status for longer (through no fault of Bird's own; his injuries really robbed him of a few of his prime years).


You put all these things together and it's difficult to pick Magic or Bird over Jordan, for me at least. I have no problem admitting that all are on the same relative level, however-- If Bird's prime wasn't cut short, he would've went down as better than Magic imo, since his peak play ('84-'86) was better than Magic's peak play ('86-'89). Like Jerry West said of Jordan in 1993: "he's the best offensive player in the league, he's the best defensive player in the league, and he's the best competitor, playing on a team that, while suited to him, is not an ideal team. He carries that team; and very rarely do you see players carry teams to victories, much less championships. And if there's ever going to be a player who comes along that's better, I think we're all going to be sitting here scratching our heads."

Chronz
06-28-2014, 11:21 AM
Which series was this? Kareems 2nd year maybe? Wilt had him in a few games, Kareem had wilt in a couple. Up till that point those two were about 50/50. Still 25 points and 18 boards with 5 blocks a game vs. an all time great in your 2nd year isn't too shabby.

They met again the following year. The Lakers won in 6 games, but Wilt was the 10 point a game scorer and Kareem was the guy scoring 34 a game against him in that series. It was by far Wilts worst series of the playoffs.
Hard to believe the by far part considering the defensive impact and 4th quarter shut downs of KAJ.


Maybe he was terrified. But he was also outscoring wilt 104-23 over a 3 game stretch as well.
On really poor efficiency, particularly in the final games of the series where I believe he hovered around 40% or so. He was a better player than Wilt at that point, so don't think I'm suggesting otherwise.


He also put up a 50 point game on Wilt earlier in that season too. He was dunking on Wilt, straight up in his face in that series.
Actually Wilt was stuffing his hooks left and right, I'm sure Kareem got his but even his own coach noticed a change in his approach, the press chided him for it.


And I wonder if it wasn't overblown. Like the stories of how Jordan feared the Pistons... Granted Jordan was a lot further into his NBA career, and Wilt was a lot more intimidating, but you still had those same types of stories there, which were much more media hype than reality

I would agree if it was just the media and not his own coach, or if just Wilt who intimidated him, but the list of bbrutes who exposed his frail frame runs deeper than that.

His superior team was literally upset because he was out played by the likes of Nate Thurmond, who is one of my favorite players and a great big but Wilt faced that same guy in his prime and was never contained to such a degree.

Wilt was just the better player, Kareem just has the longevity

Pablonovi
07-01-2014, 11:34 PM
Kareem Utterly DOMINATED 13 Of The All-Time Greatest Centers (during KAJ's career)

Consider how KAJ "fared" in his first 17 years against 13 (=most) of the All-Time Greatest Centers:
Chronologically: Wilt Chamberlain, Willis Reed, Mel Daniels, Dave Cowens, Dan Issel, Bob McAdoo, Artis Gilmore, Bill Walton, Moses Malone, Robert Parish, Hakeem Olajuwon & Patrick Ewing.

Based on comparing their rankings/selections on the All-NBA 1st-Teams & 2nd-Teams:

KAJ crushed Wilt ......... 4-0
KAJ crushed Reed ....... 4-1 (in 1970,despite (1st Year) KAJ having WAY better stats, Willis was voted 1st-Tm).
KAJ crushed Daniels ... 7-0 (Daniels played 5 of these yrs (70-75) in the ABA. KAJ was clearly better).
KAJ crushed Unseld … 13-0 (In 1969, the yr before KAJ began playing, Unseld was ALL-NBA 1st-Tm & MVP.)
KAJ crushed Cowens . 12-1 (In 1975*, despite KAJ having WAY better stats, Cowens was voted higher).
KAJ crushed Issel ......15-0 (Issel played his first 6 years (71-76) in the ABA. KAJ was clearly better).
KAJ crushed McAdoo ..13-1 (In 1975*,KAJ & McAdoo had very similar stats;but #1 McAdoo beat him in ppg).
KAJ crushed Gilmore . 15-0 (Gilmore played his first 4 years (72-75) in the ABA. KAJ was clearly better).
KAJ crushed Walton .. 11-1 (In 1978**, KAJ & #1 Walton had very similar stats, but KAJ had 7ppg more.)
KAJ crushed M.Malone 8-4 (***) (Malone played his first 2 yrs (75-76) in the ABA) KAJ was clearly better).
KAJ crushed Parish .... 9-1 (In 1982, despite KAJ having WAY better stats, Parish was voted higher).
KAJ beat Olajuwon ..... 2-0
KAJ beat Ewing .......... 1-0

* 1975, KAJ broke his hand in the pre-season, missing first 16 regular season games. This may well have cost him the ALL-NBA 1st-Team spot to Bob McAdoo & did cost him the ALL-NBA 2nd-Team spot to Cowens.

** 1978, KAJ broke his hand (in a fight) in the second minute of the first game of the regular season. He missed 2 months. The fight and/or missing those 20 games may have cost him the #1 to Walton.
***
In 1979, despite very similar stats & KAJ getting 1st-Tm Defense; Moses was voted All-NBA 1st Team.
In 1982, KAJ beat Moses by 6% shooting; but Moses had 7 more ppg & 6 more rpg & won 1st-Team.
In 1983, KAJ beat Moses by 9% shooting; but Moses had 3 more ppg & 8 more rpg & won 1st-Team.
In 1985, KAJ beat Moses by 13% shooting; but Moses had 3 more ppg & 5 more rpg & won 1st-Team.

COLLECTIVELY:
KAJ CRUSHED the field (of 13 Great Centers): 113-9 !!! (For an average of: 8.7 – 0.7)
That is total, utter, complete DOMINATION of 13 Great Players.

Remember these are not just 13 of the Greatest Centers ever, most of them are All-Time GOAT Top 50 guys. NO ONE ELSE EVER has so completely DOMINATED so many of the All-Time GOAT Top 50 guys Head-To-Head.

During his first 17 years, KAJ was:
ALL-NBA 1st-Team: 10 Times (71+MVP, 72+MVP, 73, 74+MVP, 76+MVP, 77+MVP, 80+MVP, 81, 84, 86*) * His last ALL-NBA 1st-Team came 15 yrs after his 1st one!

ALL-NBA 2nd-Team: 5 Times (70, 78, 79, 83, 85)

ALL-NBA 1st-Team + ALL-NBA 2nd-Team: 15 Times (THE Most Ever).

“ALL-NBA 3rd-Team”: 2 Times (75, 82)

(N.B. There were no official 3rd-Teams back then; but he received the 3rd most votes among the Centers).

In his 18th year, KAJ again received enough votes to have made a would-be “ALL-NBA 3rd-Team”.
- - - - -
next post:
MJ Utterly DOMINATED 13 Mostly Relatively-Mediocre “SGs” (during his 10-11 Great years)

P.S. Don't even ask how many hours all the research and writing this post took! (Yikes, tons!)

P.P.S. I originally posted this post in the Thread for discussing the GOAT #3 candidates. It much more fits here; so I've copied it over to here.

Pablonovi
07-01-2014, 11:38 PM
MJ Utterly DOMINATED 13 Mostly Relatively-Mediocre “SGs” (during his 10-11 Great Years)

These were ALL 16 of the guys who played at least some SG during the 19-year span of MJ’s career AND who won: ALL-NBA 1st-Team, ALL-NBA 2nd-Team or ALL-NBA 3rd-Team:

Moncrief (+PG), Lever (+PG), Drexler (+SF), Ellis, Dumars, Petrovic, Sprewel, Richmond, Penny Hardaway (+PG), Miller, Bryant, Iverson (+PG), Eddie Jones, McGrady(+SF), Ray Allen & Pierce (+SF).

N.B. We are not counting against MJ the 4 full seasons he QUIT, nor the 2 years where he played less than a quarter season (<20 games) 86 & 95 (and thus got beat for the ALL-NBA Teams). That leaves him only having played 13 full seasons.

But, Sprewell, Eddie Jones & Ray Allen did NOT win these awards in any of those 13 full season; so they’re out of this discussion.

These were ALL 13 of the guys who played at least some SG during MJ’s 13 full seasons, AND who won: ALL-NBA 1st-Team, ALL-NBA 2nd-Team or ALL-NBA 3rd-Team:

Moncrief (+PG), Lever (+PG), Drexler (+SF), Ellis, Dumars, Petrovic, Richmond, P.Hardaway (+PG), Miller, Bryant, Iverson (+PG), McGrady(+SF) & Pierce (+SF).

Before going any further, ask yourself, how truly great were most of these guys? A lot of you may not even know some (or many) of their first names.

First, please notice that:
4 guys: Moncrief, Lever, Penny Hardaway, & Allen Iverson ALL also played lots of PG – so they were only partially competitors of MJ.

Also:

3 guys: Drexler, McGrady & Pierce ALL also played lots of SF – so they too were only partially competitors of MJ.

Also:

4 guys: Ellis, Petrovic, Miller & Pierce ONLY won ALL-NBA 3rd-Teams during MJ’s 13 full seasons. Thus they were NOT close to being All-Time Greats nor, of course, very-tough competition for MJ.

Also:

5 guys: Petrovic, Bryant, Iverson,McGrady & Pierce each played only 4 seasons or less during MJ’s 13 yrs.

Also:

1 guy: Penny Hardaway only played 5 seasons during MJ’s 13 seasons.

Also:

4 guys: Bryant, Iverson, McGrady & Pierce only won their awards during MJ’s last 2 yrs, by far his worst. (So, being generous, I'm not holding that against MJ; but he certainly can't get any good credit for being dominated by them.)

So, of the 13 guys who played some SG during MJ’s 13 full seasons, & who won: ALL-NBA 1st-Team, ALL-NBA 2nd-Team or ALL-NBA 3rd-Team, HOW MANY WERE GREAT PLAYERS?

NBA GOAT All-Time Top 10?

1 guy: Kobe Bryant (and remember Kobe dominated MJ during MJ’s last & worst 2 seasons)

NBA GOAT All-Time Top 25?

1 (possibly 2) guys: Kobe Bryant, and ? maybe Drexler (I don’t have him nearly this high).

NBA GOAT All-Time Top 50?

3 to 5 guys: Bryant, Drexler, McGrady, Iverson, Miller (I don’t have either AI or Miller nearly this high).

These 5 are EASILY MJ’s toughest competition during his 13 full seasons. What can we say about them:
1) 3 of the five of them: Bryant, Iverson, McGrady weren’t any good until MJ’s last two seasons!
2) 1 of the five of them: Miller was not a really great player.

CLYDLE DREXLER was the ONLY serious competition MJ faced during his 10-11 Great Yrs. ONE GUY!
(And most people, including myself, would not have him in the NBA GOAT All-Time Top 25).

And just how great was Clyde Drexler. Clyde ONLY won:

ALL-NBA 1st-Team: 1 (!);
ALL-NBA 2nd-Team: 2 (!);
ALL-NBA 3rd-Team: 2 (!) (He won one in 95, when MJ played less than 20 games).

According to ALL-NBA Team Selections, this highly-informative (non-) “Stat”,
Clyde Drexler was not very great at all !

MJ Utterly DOMINATED 13 Mostly Relatively-Mediocre “SGs” (during his 10-11 Great years)!

P.S. Don't even ask how many hours all the research and writing this post took! (Yikes, tons!)
btw, I absolutely LOVED MJ during his career; and still do absolutely LOVE MJ. I'm just trying to deal with the facts: research them & try, as best I can, to analyze them correctly & accept what they represent.

P.P.S. I originally posted this post in the Thread for discussing the GOAT #3 candidates. It much more fits here; so I've copied it over to here.

hidalgo
07-01-2014, 11:55 PM
gotta add that Kareem too often could just blend in & win a title. 18 ppg, 7 rpg in the 1982 finals(bosh like numbers, not so hot). Wilkes lead the team in scoring. and 1988 he avg 13.1 ppg 41%FG 4.1 rb for his 6th title(below Bosh numbers there, very weak), as probably the 5th best player on the team at that point. huge difference to MJ's lowest ppg in a finals of 27.3 ppg in 1996 finals & another no brainer finals mvp. MJ had to carry the offense EVERY PLAYOFF SERIES they ever played. he was always the man, never put up Bosh numbers for inflated title numbers, he did the heavy lifting always & carried the bulls. and of course played his great defense as well.

not all titles are created equal fot GOAT candidates, it's why Jordan always wins the GOAT debate(6 no brainer finals mvps), he did the most as the #1 option, & dominated the NBA in an era where guards were handchecked & had a far tougher time scoring. he dominated the bigman's era

i very much respect Kareem, but what Air Jordan did was absurd & unfair. it'll be a long long wait before someone knocks him to #2 (will probably happen at some point, maybe in our lifetimes maybe not, but even that will be seriously debatable i bet) the 1 thing that's gonna allow someone to pass him, is he settled for 6 titles. it wasn't his absolute max out number(& dudes title chase now days & plan out playing together). had he not retired in his prime 2 years, then had he played until 2003 from 1998 without retiring, & won say 9 straight with the bulls, 9 finals mvp, or 8 titles 8 finals mvps, then joined the spurs in 2000 ring chasing, for 11 or so titles. he could have gotten a ton, but he took mercy on the nba & that's his achilles heel, the one thing that can be exploited, & someone will eventually make him pay for leaving titles etc on the table (i seriously wonder if he regrets it, i do as a diehard MJ fan. leaving 2 years in his prime wtf bizzare... leaving in 98 when he was still the best, no 4 peat attempts)