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ManRam
06-23-2014, 12:21 PM
Three years ago JB ran the 2nd (I think) "PSD Official Top 50 Greatest Players of All Time". Between the time that has passed, the user turnover and the fact that it's an enjoyable process, well...we think it's time to take another stab at it.

We've had a week to let the 2014 NBA Finals marinate, and plenty of legacy discussion has popped up. Now's the time to crank out your actual rankings!

Rules

I'm no mod, so rather than spitting out some strict rules I'm just going to politely ask that you try to abide by the two following things:

1. Don't go around the site campaigning for a player. Keep the discussions isolated to their respective threads. We want the voting to be as organic as possible. Frankly, if you care so much about this to the point you're running around begging for votes, well, yikes! This is just for fun so please just keep it fun for everyone.

2. Don't interrupt the threads with off-topic arguments. Please keep things on topic. It's not hard to do. If you don't like how the voting went in a prior round please don't bring it up in subsequent threads. Just suck it up!

And obviously, all the normal site and forum rules apply.


Criteria

Copied from JB's post: Take into account both peak and career play, era dominance, impact on the game of basketball, and how well their style of play and skills would transcend onto different eras. To be more exact, how great they were at playing the game of basketball.

My two cents: It's purposefully vague, or at least open ended. It's left up to you how you define a player's greatness. Just try to be rational!


We have 4 months before the season starts back up again, so each poll will be open for about 2 days a piece (100 days = 3+ months). I think 48 hours is plenty of time for each vote.

The Last Installment (http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?635088-PSD-s-Top-50-List-of-the-Greatest-NBA-Players-of-All-Time)


Process

Each thread will have a poll. You vote for one player and then nominate someone who is not on the list. This will help me keep the voting options sound and hopefully avoid overlooking potential vote-getters. Please do the nominating step, it makes things easier for me.

Please also explain your vote. It's much more fun if people back up their votes rather than just vote-and-run.

--------------------------------

Please vote, explain AND nominate someone else to add to the future polling choices.

(If a mod would like to stick this, go ahead! If not, whatever...)

Matter.
06-23-2014, 12:22 PM
Michael "Air' Jordan

InRoseWeTrust
06-23-2014, 12:24 PM
Yawn.

ManRam
06-23-2014, 12:25 PM
Yawn.

Just a formality, for sure...oh well.

Jeffy25
06-23-2014, 12:31 PM
Jordan
Nominate Kareem

xnick5757
06-23-2014, 12:33 PM
one thing i found interesting is that Lebron has two seasons where in the playoffs he put up more winshares than jordan's best.


11-12 lebron: 5.8 WS
12-13 lebron: 5.2 WS

90-91 jordan: 4.8 WS


also lebron's 08-09 was also 4.8 WS, but with a .399 WS/48. Which kills anything jordan put up (.333 in 90-91).

KnicksorBust
06-23-2014, 01:00 PM
MJ because of two very simple stats:

10× NBA scoring champion (1987–1993, 1996–1998)
9× NBA All-Defensive First Team (1988–1993, 1996–1998)

Kareem is the only one who can challenge that type of 2-way dominance.

ManningToTyree
06-23-2014, 01:01 PM
Mj

Greet
06-23-2014, 01:12 PM
MJ because of two very simple stats:

10× NBA scoring champion (1987–1993, 1996–1998)
9× NBA All-Defensive First Team (1988–1993, 1996–1998)

Kareem is the only one who can challenge that type of 2-way dominance.

Well I'm sure those aren't the only two stats :P

My vote is for MJ here as well, just since the king's career isn't over yet.

Chronz
06-23-2014, 01:15 PM
This is finally happening....


well its finally happening as soon as we get on with the MJ vote because thats the only no brainer.

Tony_Starks
06-23-2014, 01:19 PM
Magic Johnson. Could play all 5 positions, revolutionized the fast break, and beat some of the greatest teams in NBA history in their primes.

Also saved the NBA when it was on the brink of extinction and had the greatest finals performance ever.

Greet
06-23-2014, 01:22 PM
Magic Johnson. Could play all 5 positions, revolutionized the fast break, and beat some of the greatest teams in NBA history in their primes.

Also saved the NBA when it was on the brink of extinction.

But he ****ed every girl in every city possible

Tony_Starks
06-23-2014, 01:26 PM
But he ****ed every girl in every city possible

Lol!!! Ok Sterling.

kdspurman
06-23-2014, 01:29 PM
2 votes for Lebron?

MJ for me of course.

KnicksorBust
06-23-2014, 01:30 PM
Well I'm sure those aren't the only two stats :P

My vote is for MJ here as well, just since the king's career isn't over yet.

They are because you can't be the GOAT and be a 1-dimensional player.

KnicksorBust
06-23-2014, 01:32 PM
Magic Johnson. Could play all 5 positions, revolutionized the fast break, and beat some of the greatest teams in NBA history in their primes.

Also saved the NBA when it was on the brink of extinction and had the greatest finals performance ever.

He could play them all... on offense only. :)

jerellh528
06-23-2014, 01:34 PM
Could probably just skip to number 2

savvy1803
06-23-2014, 01:34 PM
For me its Wilt and i nominate Kareem .

ManRam
06-23-2014, 01:37 PM
The nominating process: it's just a means to make sure I don't forget someone who should be on the poll. You aren't nominating the guy you think should win the next vote, you're nominating guys who aren't currently an option to be an option the next time. Just an FYI. I can be a klutz at times...I don't want to overlook someone.

Dr. J would be a good nomination. Maybe Malone(s). West. Etc.

KnicksorBust
06-23-2014, 01:41 PM
The nominating process: it's just a means to make sure I don't forget someone who should be on the poll. You aren't nominating the guy you think should win the next vote, you're nominating guys who aren't currently an option to be an option the next time. Just an FYI. I can be a klutz at times...I don't want to overlook someone.

Dr. J would be a good nomination. Maybe Malone(s). West. Etc.

I would throw Moses Malone, Elgin Baylor, Dr. J, and Jerry West on there. I'd be afraid to throw Mikan on there for fear of him winning a vote. :laugh:

Bruno
06-23-2014, 01:50 PM
MJ.

personally, I don't think "impact on the game of basketball" should be part of the criteria (unless were talking specific to impact on the hard wood). loosely defined 'impact' could includes stuff that is off the court such as commercial impact and brand recognition. I think we should vote strictly for what happened on the hard wood. but i'm glad this is back, good times. :)

Silent
06-23-2014, 01:54 PM
Michael Air Jordan

Bruno
06-23-2014, 01:56 PM
I would throw Moses Malone, Elgin Baylor, Dr. J, and Jerry West on there. I'd be afraid to throw Mikan on there for fear of him winning a vote. :laugh:

x2. Moses.

savvy1803
06-23-2014, 01:57 PM
The nominating process: it's just a means to make sure I don't forget someone who should be on the poll. You aren't nominating the guy you think should win the next vote, you're nominating guys who aren't currently an option to be an option the next time. Just an FYI. I can be a klutz at times...I don't want to overlook someone.

Dr. J would be a good nomination. Maybe Malone(s). West. Etc.

Gotcha .

FYL_McVeezy
06-23-2014, 02:47 PM
This is a very subjective poll, as all GOAT debates are, but all things considered I'm gonna take my childhood NBA idol Micheal Jordan.

I don't have to sit here and run through his stats. His effect on the court and off the court seals it for me. He was one of the first stars to really globalize the game and become a true global icon. The fact that he ran through so many HOF players to get 2 3peats is outstanding.

KAJ and Wilt are a close 2 and 3 for me....

cmellofan15
06-23-2014, 03:19 PM
I'm voting Kobe!

EDIT: I hope the other guy was joking, too....

jmaest
06-23-2014, 04:14 PM
Can I just say that I think this whole thread is useless?

The overwhelming majority of basketball experts & analysts agree that Jordan is the GOAT. The overwhelming majority of people on here agree that Jordan is the GOAT. It's next to impossible to argue against the achievements, the records, the stats, the intangibles, and the circumstances.

Wouldn't a MUCH better discussion be around who is the second best player of all time?

FYL_McVeezy
06-23-2014, 04:22 PM
I'm voting Kobe!

EDIT: I hope the other guy was joking, too....

I'm a bit more worried about the 2 people who voted for LBJ.....

ManRam
06-23-2014, 04:26 PM
Can I just say that I think this whole thread is useless?

The overwhelming majority of basketball experts & analysts agree that Jordan is the GOAT. The overwhelming majority of people on here agree that Jordan is the GOAT. It's next to impossible to argue against the achievements, the records, the stats, the intangibles, and the circumstances.

Wouldn't a MUCH better discussion be around who is the second best player of all time?

It's a long off season. Patience is a virtue, my friend ;) #2 will be here in a few days.


I will say this. I think MJ is the greatest ever, but I don't think it's by a margin as wide as the voting suggests. And the fact that the votes that haven't been for him went to guys who aren't deserving of the #2 votes (IMO) is a bit more disconcerting. The gap isn't this huge.

jmaest
06-23-2014, 04:29 PM
I'm a bit more worried about the 2 people who voted for LBJ.....

I'm worried about the people who voted for Wilt, Kobe, & LBJ. I love what Wilt did as a player but you certainly have to consider how badly he played against Russell as a major knock against him. Russell absolutely shut him down in the Finals.

The list of negatives against Kobe & Lebron has been debated ad nausum as well.

koreancabbage
06-23-2014, 04:46 PM
lol at people voting for Kobe or Lebron.

jmaest
06-23-2014, 04:49 PM
It's a long off season. Patience is a virtue, my friend ;) #2 will be here in a few days.


I will say this. I think MJ is the greatest ever, but I don't think it's by a margin as wide as the voting suggests. And the fact that the votes that haven't been for him went to guys who aren't deserving of the #2 votes (IMO) is a bit more disconcerting. The gap isn't this huge.

I hear you.

I will agree to disagree on the gap though. It's impossible to argue against Jordan's effectiveness, his efficiency, the accomplishments, the records, the statistics, the intangibles, the fact that defenses specifically schemed for ways to hurt him physically, the amount of double/triple teams he faced, his all around play, etc.

I personally think there really is no close second. When I was a kid Dr. J was my favorite player. I remember in Jordan's rookie year he had a "head-head" with Bernard King. Jordan scored 40+ and Bernard 30+. That was kind of like a microcosm of the game itself. Then a couple of weeks later he dropped 50 (or almost 50, can't remember exactly) on Detroit.

You could just see how this kid was just an another level from everyone else even as a rookie. I wish I could find the dates and check his field goal percentage but I bet it was way above 50 for both games. He just didn't miss. And he was so active defensively it was amazing to see.

It's amazing to think about this now but I can honestly the guy got better every year up to the '95-'96 season. I feel that was the end of Jordan's growth. That's when he added the fadeaway to his arsenal.

5ass
06-23-2014, 05:02 PM
I voted LeBron to piss people off.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-23-2014, 05:30 PM
one thing i found interesting is that Lebron has two seasons where in the playoffs he put up more winshares than jordan's best.


11-12 lebron: 5.8 WS
12-13 lebron: 5.2 WS

90-91 jordan: 4.8 WS


also lebron's 08-09 was also 4.8 WS, but with a .399 WS/48. Which kills anything jordan put up (.333 in 90-91).

He's playing in the weakest conference in league history.

kdspurman
06-23-2014, 05:38 PM
lol at people voting for Kobe or Lebron.

Yea, really.

koreancabbage
06-23-2014, 05:47 PM
He's playing in the weakest conference in league history.
What does that have to do with Lebron individual stats?

Bruno
06-23-2014, 06:35 PM
Can I just say that I think this whole thread is useless?

The overwhelming majority of basketball experts & analysts agree that Jordan is the GOAT. The overwhelming majority of people on here agree that Jordan is the GOAT. It's next to impossible to argue against the achievements, the records, the stats, the intangibles, and the circumstances.

Wouldn't a MUCH better discussion be around who is the second best player of all time?

we'll get there.

ricky recon
06-23-2014, 06:58 PM
Michael Jordan wasn't the best because he was clutch, or a great two way player, or won six rings, yada yada yada.

He was the best because he captivated the NBA viewers like no one else has ever done, and was an unstoppable force like something we've never seen in professional basketball and will probably never see again. He was simply the best because he was the best.

ricky recon
06-23-2014, 06:58 PM
By the way, I nominate Julius Erving.

JordansBulls
06-23-2014, 09:11 PM
The top 3 are Jordan, Kareem and Rusell because all were great but I choose Michael Jordan and here a few reasons why.

-Most scoring titles—10
-Most NBA Finals MVP awards—6
-Highest career scoring average—30.12
-Highest career scoring average playoffs— 33.45
-Highest career scoring average finals (12 games) - 33.57
-Most consecutive games scoring in double figures—866
-Highest single series scoring average NBA Finals—41.0 (1993)
-Highest PER Season- 27.91 and Playoffs 28.59
-Highest WS/PER 48 in Season .2505 and Playoffs - .2553
-Highest Total Playoff Win Shares Despite playing nearly 50 games less than the next player at 39.76
-Never averaged less than 26.6 ppg in any playoff series

Playoffs

Most Points Per Game (min. 25 games)
33.4 by Michael Jordan (179 games)

Most Points in a Game
63 by Michael Jordan

Most 50 Point Games
8 by Michael Jordan (no one else has more than 4)

Most 40 Point Games
38 by Michael Jordan (no one else has even half that all time)

Most 30 Point Games
109 by Michael Jordan

Most 20 Point Games
174 by Michael Jordan (he played 179 playoff games and scored under 20 only 5 times)

Most Playoff Points
5987 by Michael Jordan


No one else essentially has the combination of winning, stats, accolades, and efficiency to take that crown.





"Never getting outplayed in by an opponent over the course of a playoff series"otherwise known as

"Came out of every playoff series looking like the best player on the court"

Forget numbers and figures, that record is what makes him GOAT.


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/almanac_playoff_scoring_leaders/


MJ never lost a series with homecourt advantage/better seed/better record and is the only player to win multiple titles while leading the league in scoring.

Vote: Michael Jordan
Nominate: Julius Erving

Bruno
06-23-2014, 09:28 PM
Michael Jordan wasn't the best because he was clutch, or a great two way player, or won six rings, yada yada yada.

He was the best because he captivated the NBA viewers like no one else has ever done, and was an unstoppable force like something we've never seen in professional basketball and will probably never see again. He was simply the best because he was the best.
this is the kind of stuff that should carry zero weight in our debate here (imo). the glamour aspect. lets keep the debate on the hard wood.



The top 3 are Jordan, Kareem and Rusell because all were great but I choose Michael Jordan and here a few reasons why.

-Most scoring titles—10
-Most NBA Finals MVP awards—6
-Highest career scoring average—30.12
-Highest career scoring average playoffs— 33.45
-Highest career scoring average finals (12 games) - 33.57
-Most consecutive games scoring in double figures—866
-Highest single series scoring average NBA Finals—41.0 (1993)
-Highest PER Season- 27.91 and Playoffs 28.59
-Highest WS/PER 48 in Season .2505 and Playoffs - .2553
-Highest Total Playoff Win Shares Despite playing nearly 50 games less than the next player at 39.76
-Never averaged less than 26.6 ppg in any playoff series

Playoffs

Most Points Per Game (min. 25 games)
33.4 by Michael Jordan (179 games)

Most Points in a Game
63 by Michael Jordan

Most 50 Point Games
8 by Michael Jordan (no one else has more than 4)

Most 40 Point Games
38 by Michael Jordan (no one else has even half that all time)

Most 30 Point Games
109 by Michael Jordan

Most 20 Point Games
174 by Michael Jordan (he played 179 playoff games and scored under 20 only 5 times)

Most Playoff Points
5987 by Michael Jordan


No one else essentially has the combination of winning, stats, accolades, and efficiency to take that crown.





http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/almanac_playoff_scoring_leaders/


MJ never lost a series with homecourt advantage/better seed/better record and is the only player to win multiple titles while leading the league in scoring.

Vote: Michael Jordan
Nominate: Julius Erving

must be nice to argue in favor of the GOAT. try arguing a point when you know you're dead wrong and don't have enough evidence to sway others to your bias. thats a challenge :)

I agree that KAJ is top three but Ive got Wilt next.

BklynKnicks3
06-23-2014, 10:01 PM
Jordan easily then larry bird

Seizabmc
06-23-2014, 10:19 PM
Walt clyd Frazier

bucketss
06-24-2014, 12:41 AM
magic

nominate: jerry west

jerellh528
06-24-2014, 12:47 AM
And they call Kobe fans bad, lol 6 people actually voted for james. I think we know who the more irrational fans are jk

FlashBolt
06-24-2014, 01:02 AM
For sure it is Jordan.

Ebbs
06-24-2014, 05:07 AM
Imagine if this app wasn't dog **** and I could see the poll.

OlivaThor
06-24-2014, 08:22 AM
Wilt for me .. He would DOMINATE in every era big time.

KnicksorBust
06-24-2014, 08:59 AM
KAJ with 0 votes? :speechless:

mightybosstone
06-24-2014, 09:06 AM
KAJ with 0 votes? :speechless:

Yeah, it's a little crazy to me that Lebron, Kobe and Wilt have a combined 13 votes, but Kareem (who should go No. 2) has zero. But the answer is so obviously MJ here, and I have yet to see a single person come up with a halfway decent justification to argue otherwise.

jmaest
06-24-2014, 11:04 AM
must be nice to argue in favor of the GOAT. try arguing a point when you know you're dead wrong and don't have enough evidence to sway others to your bias. thats a challenge :)

I agree that KAJ is top three but Ive got Wilt next.

Best response to a post ever.

I bump KAJ in favor of Russell. I know the knock on Russell is his scoring but Russell could score easily. He averaged close to 19-20 PPG during the peak years there and he played on a team that was essentially "stacked" for its era. In addition to that he was essentially the first "Tim Duncan"--but with much better defense & rebounding.

But here's why I take him 2nd. This is going to sound silly but there's a civil rights aspect to what Bill Russell accomplished that gets no mention. What gets lost in the discussion with Russell is the fact that he was the leader of those Celtics teams and then became their coach and won multiple titles as a head coach/player combo.

This is late 50's into the 60's. Not exactly the friendliest time for Black men in America. That kind of thing, IMO, always has something to do with what happens on the court...

koreancabbage
06-24-2014, 11:17 AM
And they call Kobe fans bad, lol 6 people actually voted for james. I think we know who the more irrational fans are jk

lol didn't someone just vote Lebron just for the the lullz. When Kobe is healthy, we will really see how irrational Kobe fans can get as welll (they are just hiding atm =P)

hahahaha

ManRam
06-24-2014, 11:28 AM
KAJ is on the board!!! About time.

Bill Russell will be getting the bulk of my wrath this time around...can't wait til he starts getting votes.

DR_1
06-24-2014, 02:30 PM
How is LeBron a choice? Obviously he is a great player but when picking the top 5 or so you really have to nitpick as far as ranking them because they are all so good. When you are 2-3 in the Finals that alone automatically removes your contention in my book.

mightybosstone
06-24-2014, 02:36 PM
How is LeBron a choice? Obviously he is a great player but when picking the top 5 or so you really have to nitpick as far as ranking them because they are all so good. When you are 2-3 in the Finals that alone automatically removes your contention in my book.

You are aware that Wilt was 2-4 in the Finals, right? If Lebron doesn't deserve contention based on that one totally overrated statistic, neither does Wilt. And if we're using success in the Finals as our only parameter for judging all-time players, than pretty much any player on those 60s Celtics teams, 90s Bulls teams and guys like Horry and Fisher should crack the top 10.

ManRam
06-24-2014, 02:40 PM
The Wilt vs LeBron hypocrisy will be something amazing to behold, indeed....

mightybosstone
06-24-2014, 02:48 PM
The Wilt vs LeBron hypocrisy will be something amazing to behold, indeed....

It really is amazing to me how many people don't realize it. Not to call out specific fan bases or fans, but I've seen some of the exact same people who tout Wilt as a top 2-3 guy give crap to Lebron for his "poor" record in the Finals and state he doesn't deserve to be in the top 10 discussion. Hell, Wilt wasn't even the No. 1 guy when he won his second title. If Wilt had played today under the intense scrutiny of fans and media, they would have crucified him.

jmaest
06-24-2014, 03:11 PM
It really is amazing to me how many people don't realize it. Not to call out specific fan bases or fans, but I've seen some of the exact same people who tout Wilt as a top 2-3 guy give crap to Lebron for his "poor" record in the Finals and state he doesn't deserve to be in the top 10 discussion. Hell, Wilt wasn't even the No. 1 guy when he won his second title. If Wilt had played today under the intense scrutiny of fans and media, they would have crucified him.

It's arguable if he was the #1 guy for either title. It's a widely held opinion that Wilt played on Jerry West's team.

Either way, I've ignored the "Losing record in the Finals" discussion because on this site it is just a "pro-Kobe" way of keeping Lebron out of the discussion.

I do believe that having a title does separate one great player from another. Had Malone actually beaten the Bulls one time, I'd probably give him a nod over Barkley 'all-time' for example. But with all things being equal, for the most part, Barkley is higher.

Bruno
06-24-2014, 03:19 PM
It really is amazing to me how many people don't realize it. Not to call out specific fan bases or fans, but I've seen some of the exact same people who tout Wilt as a top 2-3 guy give crap to Lebron for his "poor" record in the Finals and state he doesn't deserve to be in the top 10 discussion. Hell, Wilt wasn't even the No. 1 guy when he won his second title. If Wilt had played today under the intense scrutiny of fans and media, they would have crucified him.

in a world were LBJ anchored defenses like Wilt, or amassed as many total games as Wilt (still 200 behind) you might have an excellent point.

LBJ is 29 and still climbing, calm down.

Minimal
06-24-2014, 03:24 PM
Jordan, surprised to see Bron being 2nd in the poll.

ManRam
06-24-2014, 03:32 PM
in a world were LBJ anchored defenses like Wilt, or amassed as many total games as Wilt (still 200 behind) you might have an excellent point.

LBJ is 29 and still climbing, calm down.

Absolutely. I'm not suggesting I'm ready to argue Bron over Wilt, I'm just ready to attack the most glaring source of potential hypocrisy that now exists. I got no problem if you revere Wilt that high -- I'm not suggesting it's wrong to do so -- so long as you're consistent and not a hypocrite when it comes to others. We know people will bend and mold their criteria with certain players to justify the rankings they want, but that's stupid and call-out-worthy.

But we're getting ahead of ourselves here.

tredigs
06-24-2014, 03:33 PM
Kareem with less votes than Kobe, Wilt and Lebron??? Yikes. Sincerely hope that is not a trend. KAJ is the only other player I'd consider in #1 GOAT talks outside of MJ.

jerellh528
06-24-2014, 04:00 PM
Absolutely. I'm not suggesting I'm ready to argue Bron over Wilt, I'm just ready to attack the most glaring source of potential hypocrisy that now exists. I got no problem if you revere Wilt that high -- I'm not suggesting it's wrong to do so -- so long as you're consistent and not a hypocrite when it comes to others. We know people will bend and mold their criteria with certain players to justify the rankings they want, but that's stupid and call-out-worthy.

But we're getting ahead of ourselves here.

I might be wrong, but I think it's more that Lebron joined forces with 2 other top 10 players in their prime and claimed to win 8 rings. 2 out of 4 with the heat in the most pathetic confrence in nba history is probably seen as a huge failure considering the circumstances. James is 2 out of 5 for his career, wilt was 2 out of 4.

DR_1
06-24-2014, 04:06 PM
in a world were LBJ anchored defenses like Wilt, or amassed as many total games as Wilt (still 200 behind) you might have an excellent point.

LBJ is 29 and still climbing, calm down.

Well said. Wilt had the misfortune of having to go against Russell's Celtics. LeBron's competition looks weak by comparison, not to mention his stats are nowhere near Wilt's in terms of magnitude.

naps
06-24-2014, 04:08 PM
Jordan for obvious reasons. This thread shouldn't be here for this long. Let's start #2 already! Kareem should win #2 but I expect Wilt to give him a run for that spot.

DR_1
06-24-2014, 04:09 PM
Kareem with less votes than Kobe, Wilt and Lebron??? Yikes. Sincerely hope that is not a trend. KAJ is the only other player I'd consider in #1 GOAT talks outside of MJ.

This.

Ebbs
06-24-2014, 05:26 PM
Voted Shaq to be different and because this poll matters 0%.

Nominate Jerry West.

Minimal
06-24-2014, 05:39 PM
Well said. Wilt had the misfortune of having to go against Russell's Celtics. LeBron's competition looks weak by comparison, not to mention his stats are nowhere near Wilt's in terms of magnitude.
Like everyone elses are /fail.
And like the stats matter, he put up those stats 50 years ago, there is no way he would put the same stats in this era. He shot 40 times a game to score 50 PPG, he played in 40% more faster paced era. He averaged 46 MPG in career. Heck 6'6 Forward Gus Johnson averaged 17 RPG in 38.5 MPG in his era.
Nothing to take from Wilt, he is one of the greatest, he dominated the league in that era, because he was much stronger than others, same as Shaq did, but he was even stronger than Shaq. He was a 7'1 300lb beast who could bench press 500lb and had a LeBron like vertical leap (~44 inches)

Stat wise there are 3 guys who are pretty much head to head with each other in NBA history- Jordan, LeBron and Wilt, then goes Oscar and Shaq.

tredigs
06-24-2014, 06:25 PM
Like everyone elses are /fail.
And like the stats matter, he put up those stats 50 years ago, there is no way he would put the same stats in this era. He shot 40 times a game to score 50 PPG, he played in 40% more faster paced era. He averaged 46 MPG in career. Heck 6'6 Forward Gus Johnson averaged 17 RPG in 38.5 MPG in his era.
Nothing to take from Wilt, he is one of the greatest, he dominated the league in that era, because he was much stronger than others, same as Shaq did, but he was even stronger than Shaq. He was a 7'1 300lb beast who could bench press 500lb and had a LeBron like vertical leap (~44 inches)

Stat wise there are 3 guys who are pretty much head to head with each other in NBA history- Jordan, LeBron and Wilt, then goes Oscar and Shaq.

Kareem?

From his rookie year until age 33:
28/14/4.5 on 56/72 +1.2 stl & 3.4 blk...
PER of 26.7. TS% 59%, WS/48 .260, Ortg 116, Drtg 94.

6 MVP's and 3 championships in that span.

Also won some more championships + FMVP and was selected to multiple All NBA Teams after that point.

mightybosstone
06-24-2014, 07:26 PM
in a world were LBJ anchored defenses like Wilt, or amassed as many total games as Wilt (still 200 behind) you might have an excellent point.

LBJ is 29 and still climbing, calm down.

Lebron also already has as many rings and as many MVPs as Wilt did in his entire career despite playing in a league with three times as many teams. And Lebron's peak advanced stats are every bit as solid as Wilt's. As for defense, I'd say Lebron has been the best defensive player on those Heat teams the last four years. Really, the only substantial argument you can make in favor of Wilt is longevity, but that's hardly fair considering he played three more seasons than Lebron and Lebron has played in only two fewer postseason games.

Bottom line, if you're going to use the "Lebron's finals record doesn't make him worthy of the top 10" argument, then you have to use the same justification for Wilt. Otherwise, you don't have much of a leg to stand on.

*Silver&Black*
06-24-2014, 07:43 PM
Jordan. Close thread.

Minimal
06-24-2014, 08:22 PM
Kareem?

From his rookie year until age 33:
28/14/4.5 on 56/72 +1.2 stl & 3.4 blk...
PER of 26.7. TS% 59%, WS/48 .260, Ortg 116, Drtg 94.

6 MVP's and 3 championships in that span.

Also won some more championships + FMVP and was selected to multiple All NBA Teams after that point.
Well yeah he also deserves,to be in that lineup, dunno why I didn't put him there.

alexander_37
06-24-2014, 11:20 PM
I can't wait to see Lebron voted at like 3-4 and Kobe right after him. It's going to be a good laugh.

FlashBolt
06-25-2014, 12:03 AM
1) LeBron is no way 2nd in voting. Stop being biased and hop off.
2) Jordan is clearly the GOAT. Let's not even debate this right now.
3) How the hell did Kobe even get votes? What has he done that is GOAT worthy?
4) Wilt is overrated. If you think he is going to average 50/25, you need a head check. No way Wilt even averages half of that IMO. He played against legit scrubs outside of Kareem. One could say Kareem didn't even play against legitimate competition for half his career. Sorry, but Bill Russell would never be a top 10 player in anyone's book if he never won those rings yet many have him ranked higher than Wilt. Wilt is a top 15 player but I'd rather take Hakeem and Shaq over him just because they played against the era in which competition was highly competitive and also filled with talent in all areas of the game. No way West comes close to Jordan or Kobe in today's era.
5) Why does LeBron have 8 votes? Lol.... Way too early, seriously. Come back in 5-7 years and I'll take those 8 votes a bit more competitively.

*Silver&Black*
06-25-2014, 12:45 AM
Jordan is clearly #1, and when/if we keep voting #2 and so forth the smarter voters might give this guy votes, but as of now how does James have 9 votes and Bird 0? Bird is still going before James in GOAT order. Like I said, maybe it's because the smart votes all went to Jordan this round, and that is why there are crazy votes James and none for Bird. Same with Bill Russell having no votes.

DR_1
06-25-2014, 12:50 AM
Lebron also already has as many rings and as many MVPs as Wilt did in his entire career despite playing in a league with three times as many teams. And Lebron's peak advanced stats are every bit as solid as Wilt's. As for defense, I'd say Lebron has been the best defensive player on those Heat teams the last four years. Really, the only substantial argument you can make in favor of Wilt is longevity, but that's hardly fair considering he played three more seasons than Lebron and Lebron has played in only two fewer postseason games.

Bottom line, if you're going to use the "Lebron's finals record doesn't make him worthy of the top 10" argument, then you have to use the same justification for Wilt. Otherwise, you don't have much of a leg to stand on.

I was arguing top 5, not top 10

FlashBolt
06-25-2014, 01:16 AM
Jordan is clearly #1, and when/if we keep voting #2 and so forth the smarter voters might give this guy votes, but as of now how does James have 9 votes and Bird 0? Bird is still going before James in GOAT order. Like I said, maybe it's because the smart votes all went to Jordan this round, and that is why there are crazy votes James and none for Bird. Same with Bill Russell having no votes.

What has Bird done that was so remarkable? James has done everything Bird has done and more. He doesn't have 3 championships but Bird played with a fairly great team that no one seems to realize. He had a very short career or else I do think he could have been much higher. IMO, Bird in his prime was better than Magic but Magic has 5 rings - hard to ignore that.

ricky recon
06-25-2014, 01:24 AM
this is the kind of stuff that should carry zero weight in our debate here (imo). the glamour aspect. lets keep the debate on the hard wood.

I understand what you mean, but I don't think you understand the big picture.

Being the best and captivating people isn't glamour. Michael Jordan captivated basketball and non-basketball fans because how dominant one player could be in a five man team sport. His style wasn't set people up really nicely, be a really efficient rebounder, or being a fundamental man defender (not that he wasn't all of those things). He was someone who took over a game and nobody had an answer. Yes he could score anywhere, yes he was a phenomenal athlete, defender, and worker, but what made him the best was that everyone on the court, in the stadium, watching it from bum-**** nowhere knew he was the best.

Everyone including Michael knew he was the best. It wasn't glamour. It was reality.

jmaest
06-25-2014, 01:24 AM
Well said. Wilt had the misfortune of having to go against Russell's Celtics. LeBron's competition looks weak by comparison, not to mention his stats are nowhere near Wilt's in terms of magnitude.

Yes BUT Russell sorely outplayed him AND shut him down. One of the reasons Wilt gets overlooked was that he essentially had one peer and that was Russell and yet, head-head, Russell seemed to have no issues with Wilt.

It's always been a stain against Wilt.

amos1er
06-25-2014, 01:27 AM
How the **** did anyone vote for anyone not named Michael Jordan for GOAT...

What in the holly ****!!!

amos1er
06-25-2014, 01:28 AM
Jordan should be unanimous people... :facepalm:

At least in the 90%'s

Oh well lets get on with the number 2 vote... This is a waste of time.

FlashBolt
06-25-2014, 01:33 AM
How the **** did anyone vote for anyone not named Michael Jordan for GOAT...

What in the holly ****!!!


Jordan should be unanimous people... :facepalm:

At least in the 90%'s

Oh well lets get on with the number 2 vote... This is a waste of time.

Very true. Should just skip to 2-12 because Jordan is unanimous. Bron receiving 9 votes is pretty bad also.

amos1er
06-25-2014, 01:36 AM
one thing i found interesting is that Lebron has two seasons where in the playoffs he put up more winshares than jordan's best.


11-12 lebron: 5.8 WS
12-13 lebron: 5.2 WS

90-91 jordan: 4.8 WS


also lebron's 08-09 was also 4.8 WS, but with a .399 WS/48. Which kills anything jordan put up (.333 in 90-91).

Perhaps you need to re-read this...



Criteria

Copied from JB's post: Take into account both peak and career play, era dominance, impact on the game of basketball, and how well their style of play and skills would transcend onto different eras. To be more exact, how great they were at playing the game of basketball.

Arbitrary Hollinger stats don't mean **** in the big picture. Jordan beat out better teams with less help and won more rings and never lost in the finals to teams where he was the favorite to win. He also never had a debacle like in 2011, nor did his team set the finals record for greatest disparity in points. Lol... Give me a break.

amos1er
06-25-2014, 01:37 AM
Very true. Should just skip to 2-12 because Jordan is unanimous. Bron receiving 9 votes is pretty bad also.

Yes, we agree on this for sure. Number 2 should be a lot more interesting. Also, the quality of posters who voted for Lebron just speaks for itself. Also the ones who voted for Kobe or anyone else for that matter... Lol.

goingfor28
06-25-2014, 01:41 AM
Jordan
/

vics
06-25-2014, 02:07 AM
Lebron James.

Kaner
06-25-2014, 02:28 AM
Yes BUT Russell sorely outplayed him AND shut him down. One of the reasons Wilt gets overlooked was that he essentially had one peer and that was Russell and yet, head-head, Russell seemed to have no issues with Wilt.

It's always been a stain against Wilt.

I've never heard this said by someone who watched basketball in the 60s. I always hear Wilt would outplay Russell and get like 30/30 while the rest of Russell's team would crush Wilt's teams

FlashBolt
06-25-2014, 03:11 AM
How the **** did anyone vote for anyone not named Michael Jordan for GOAT...

What in the holly ****!!!


Perhaps you need to re-read this...



Arbitrary Hollinger stats don't mean **** in the big picture. Jordan beat out better teams with less help and won more rings and never lost in the finals to teams where he was the favorite to win. He also never had a debacle like in 2011, nor did his team set the finals record for greatest disparity in points. Lol... Give me a break.

1) Jordan didn't beat out better teams. That Spurs squad will give Jordan a run for his money.

2) Less help? No he didn't. Rodman/Pippen were on his team with HOF coach Phil Jackson. Hobbled Wade/Christina Bosh does not compare to Rodman/Pippen. Individually, Wade is better than them both but in a team situation in which you have a dominant wing player, Rodman/Pippen were the perfect pieces. Jordan/Wade/Bosh would not beat Malone/Stockton, GP/Kemp, Magic, or Pistons.. Get real. There is nothing Wade/Bosh does better than James or Jordan while Pippen/Rodman are better rebounders/defender(s) than Jordan or LeBron. LeBron doesn't have to guard the best player, LeBron has someone like Rodman who hustles for every play and grabs 16 rebounds a game with 6 ORPG. Those missed Jordan shots for a second opportunity? LeBron doesn't get that with Bosh only averaging 7 RPG with 2 ORPG. Oh yeah, he doesn't get any defensive help or hustle from Wade/Bosh. Imagine Jordan having to play with Wade/Bosh.. No, really.

3) To be fair, Jordan beat an aged up Stockton Jazz, Pippen/Jordan/Rodman is way better than Kemp/Payton, Pippen/Jordan way better than whatever Drexler had, Pippen/Jordan way better than Barkley/Johnson, Pippen/Jordan way better than Magic/Worthy. Stop acting like it was Jordan against a prime KAJ/Magic. No way Jordan/Pippen sniffs more than two wins. Stop acting like it was Jordan against Charles Barkley/Hakeem in their primes.. because we all know who would win that. So all in all, Jordan played against teams he was supposed to beat. Flip the switch, Pippen/Barkley vs Jordan, I highly doubt Jordan beats that.

4) He never lost in the Finals, great achievement. But, Magic lost, Bird lost, Wilt lost, Kareem lost, Duncan lost, Shaq lost.. So a player can't be great if he loses in the Finals? I'll take 6/12 over 6/6 because more finals appearances is nothing to be ashamed of.

5) 2011 was bad by LeBron's standards. No one can debate that. Those other years, what hasn't he done? This season, you're going to blame James when it was his teammates who were incapable of performing? 28 PPG, 58%, 8 rebounds? Only one who played consistent every game? Nevermind that Bosh/Wade combined for 25 points as a duo with Chalmers being useless. Yup, that was totally his fault. You've used logic in your arguments before. Don't be biased and purposely ignore logic when making LeBron arguments.

amos1er
06-25-2014, 07:38 AM
1) Jordan didn't beat out better teams. That Spurs squad will give Jordan a run for his money.

I'm sure they would have given Jordan a run for his money, but I don't really see them as being all that much tougher than those Jazz squads Jordan took out at the tail end of his prime. Either way, factor in the greatest disparity in finals history in only 5 games compared to the 6 games it took Jordan with some very heroic moments. Plus Lebron didn't exactly perform well until game 7 of last years finals... Well, the first part of the 4th quarter of last years finals to be exact. Either way, I just don't see how Lebron is even close to Jordan's level. That's really not a knock on him... It's just the truth and he still has some time to work on that.


2) Less help? No he didn't. Rodman/Pippen were on his team with HOF coach Phil Jackson. Hobbled Wade/Christina Bosh does not compare to Rodman/Pippen. Individually, Wade is better than them both but in a team situation in which you have a dominant wing player, Rodman/Pippen were the perfect pieces. Jordan/Wade/Bosh would not beat Malone/Stockton, GP/Kemp, Magic, or Pistons.. Get real. There is nothing Wade/Bosh does better than James or Jordan while Pippen/Rodman are better rebounders/defender(s) than Jordan or LeBron. LeBron doesn't have to guard the best player, LeBron has someone like Rodman who hustles for every play and grabs 16 rebounds a game with 6 ORPG. Those missed Jordan shots for a second opportunity? LeBron doesn't get that with Bosh only averaging 7 RPG with 2 ORPG. Oh yeah, he doesn't get any defensive help or hustle from Wade/Bosh. Imagine Jordan having to play with Wade/Bosh.. No, really.

The coaching I can understand. Spo is a far cry from Jackson and thats for sure. Jordan molded Pippen... Same cannot be said for Lebron. Wade was in rare form in 2011 and Lebron just couldn't capitalize. Though I will admit that Wade hasn't been in rare form these past two seasons. Still, It's very tough to judge considering Lebron didn't have a Pippen type caliber player to mold... Though even you have to admit that Jordan had a way of bringing out the best of his teammates in a way that I have never seen from Lebron. Jordan just had that competitive spirit that I have never seen in a player before... Not a total insult to Lebron that he doesn't measure up to the GOAT. Though I will say that IMO only Bird and Kobe measure up to Jordan in that standard. Those two just wouldn't settle for anything less than 110%. Lebron is just too nice a guy to warrant that sort of expectation.


3) To be fair, Jordan beat an aged up Stockton Jazz, Pippen/Jordan/Rodman is way better than Kemp/Payton, Pippen/Jordan way better than whatever Drexler had, Pippen/Jordan way better than Barkley/Johnson, Pippen/Jordan way better than Magic/Worthy. Stop acting like it was Jordan against a prime KAJ/Magic. No way Jordan/Pippen sniffs more than two wins. Stop acting like it was Jordan against Charles Barkley/Hakeem in their primes.. because we all know who would win that. So all in all, Jordan played against teams he was supposed to beat. Flip the switch, Pippen/Barkley vs Jordan, I highly doubt Jordan beats that.

Barkley was only motivated for that one year in 1993 with Phoenix where he was just on a mission. Had he been with Pippen and that cast and Jordan with Phoenix, things could have been different for sure. However, that is a hypothetical argument and Jordan did it six times and I doubt Barkley had the motivation and fortitude for all that. Could Barkley really have challenged Pippen in practice defensively the way Jordan did to make him the player he was... Doubtful as they played totally different positions and roles. I just can't see Barkley holding his teammates to the same standards as Jordan let alone being motivated to win back to back championships with them. Jordan was always the type of guy that seemed to find a way to win even when the chips were down while Lebron lost when the chips were up.


4) He never lost in the Finals, great achievement. But, Magic lost, Bird lost, Wilt lost, Kareem lost, Duncan lost, Shaq lost.. So a player can't be great if he loses in the Finals? I'll take 6/12 over 6/6 because more finals appearances is nothing to be ashamed of.

All those players you mentioned lost to far greater competition than what Lebron has lost to. Magic to Bird's Celtics... Bird to Magic's Lakers... Wilt to insanely stacked Boston teams... Duncan to some of the best Laker teams of All-Time and barely losing to Lebron's Heat last season and most likely would have won with a fair chance for HCA that Lebron attained in a far weaker eastern conference. I just expect better from someone who people labeled the "Chosen One" and "The King" and who people proclaimed would surpass both Jordan and Kobe... I just don't see it. Honestly I don't.


5) 2011 was bad by LeBron's standards. No one can debate that. Those other years, what hasn't he done? This season, you're going to blame James when it was his teammates who were incapable of performing? 28 PPG, 58%, 8 rebounds? Only one who played consistent every game? Nevermind that Bosh/Wade combined for 25 points as a duo with Chalmers being useless. Yup, that was totally his fault. You've used logic in your arguments before. Don't be biased and purposely ignore logic when making LeBron arguments.

2011 was bad by most All-Time great standards... Not just Lebron's. San Antonio had a game plan to not worry too much about James offensively because they knew he didn't have the arsenal to take down a team the way Jordan and Kobe could. Lebron just isn't that type of player and thats not his fault. He is more like Magic than he is like Kobe and Jordan. He would prefer to pass than create his own shot. That allowed the Spurs to focus in on the rest of the team more than Lebron and let Lebron figure out a way to beat them by himself which his game is just now designed to do. That's just not who he is. Dude can't take a double clutch fade a way with two defenders on him and hit at a consistent clip. I know that's now news to anyone here, but that's what San Antonio counted on when they decided not to double him at all and to instead focus on everyone else. I just can't see Lebron going off for 40 or 50 when left single covered and dared to shoot like Kobe and Jordan could. Pop knew this to be true and that's why he elected to go with that strategy and it payed dividends.

The only saving grace for Lebron that I can see is that he didn't have Phil Jackson... Had he had a coach of that caliber, I could see him doing far greater things... IMO I feel that Lebron's greatest strength is in the post and not as a Magic/Jordan hybrid role at all. His teammates don't benefit from that at all as can be seen from their statistical drop off since teaming up with him. Rather, he should take up a Malone/Shaq role where he could dominate in the post and pass out of double teams when need be. His rebounding would most likely stay the same or take a very slight decrease depending on what sort of Center he played with, while his assists would take a hit for sure. Though his team impact would increase dramatically and he could finally be the guy who leads a straight up team to multiple chips... Though he would have to work on his clutch factor a bit but I'm sure the confidence from playing mainly in the post would change that. All in all, he still has some things to tweak before we all consider him top ten IMO. Going to NY to play under Phil would be a great start.

koreancabbage
06-25-2014, 08:31 AM
^ oh shut up both of you.

JordansBulls
06-25-2014, 09:06 AM
one thing i found interesting is that Lebron has two seasons where in the playoffs he put up more winshares than jordan's best.


11-12 lebron: 5.8 WS
12-13 lebron: 5.2 WS

90-91 jordan: 4.8 WS


also lebron's 08-09 was also 4.8 WS, but with a .399 WS/48. Which kills anything jordan put up (.333 in 90-91).

You realize the more playoff games you play the more win shares you will have. If Jordan played only 17 games and Lebron 23 games, then of course Lebron would have more win shares. It is also why Barkley had more win shares in 1993 in the playoffs than Jordan because he played in more games. I don't think that is a good thing having to get extended by inferior competition.

ManRam
06-25-2014, 09:34 AM
Jordan should be unanimous people... :facepalm:

At least in the 90%'s

I disagree that it should be unanimous. I think he's the best player ever, but I don't think it's be a unanimous margin. 90%'s makes more sense, for sure. Unfortunately, the player(s) I think should get a few votes aren't the ones that did.


Oh well lets get on with the number 2 vote... This is a waste of time.

Also,

1. Patience is a virtue, young grasshopper!! It's a long off season. There's literally no reason to need to rush this. Each poll is getting 48 hours.
2. Was it a waste of time? It caused a response and reaction from you, did it not? We saw that MJ got just over 75% of the votes. A few of them were troll votes (please stop) but still. I think we learned something...for better or for worse.

ManRam
06-25-2014, 10:06 AM
I am gonna call the voting now. It's easier for me to get these up before 10AM so I'm going to start the new one now to get that trend going. If a mod wants to close this, feel free to. If not, that's cool. Either way, unsticky plz.

Greet
06-25-2014, 10:13 AM
I don't think they are troll votes. I think somewhere deep in the statistical world that there is a case for LeBron.

savvy1803
06-25-2014, 01:55 PM
I've never heard this said by someone who watched basketball in the 60s. I always hear Wilt would outplay Russell and get like 30/30 while the rest of Russell's team would crush Wilt's teams

Don't bother with facts Kaner their conclusion's have already been made .

amos1er
06-26-2014, 04:58 AM
You realize the more playoff games you play the more win shares you will have. If Jordan played only 17 games and Lebron 23 games, then of course Lebron would have more win shares. It is also why Barkley had more win shares in 1993 in the playoffs than Jordan because he played in more games. I don't think that is a good thing having to get extended by inferior competition.

Ohhh. Totally burned him.

Pablonovi
06-26-2014, 10:20 PM
A HUGE CASE CAN BE MADE THAT KAJ'S CAREER WAS GREATER THAN MJ'S

Since the end of the Finals, I've spent 100+ hours, in preparation for these GOAT discussions to studying two NBA very-related things:
1) INDIVIDUAL GREATNESS (especially focusing on comparing All-NBA 1st-Team, 2nd-Team & 3rd-Team Selections);

2) TEAM GREATNESS (especially focusing on the size (number of teams) of the NBL, BAA, NBA and ABA AND how the increases in the number of teams has affected the Win-Loss records (and our perception of how great the teams with the best W-L records really were).

I'm close to done with both studies and should post each within the next 2-3 days.

Meanwhile, I missed this thread and vote.
I would have voted for KAJ as #1.
I've begun to lay out my NUMEROUS reasons in the thread about GOAT #2.

Contrary to what many posters have stated here; a quite convincing case can be made that KAJ was better than MJ.

1) PEAK: KAJ's PEAK (5-7 SUPER YEARS) was better than MJ's. KAJ had 3 of the top 7 WinShare years ever; MJ's best year is NOT even in the Top 8 best years ever. Partial Case Closed!

2) PRIME: KAJ'S PRIME: (15 Great Years) was better than MJ's 11 Great Years. 4 additional Great Years is a lot! Partial Case Closed!

3) ERA-DOMINANCE: KAJ was MORE dominant of his 20 year career period than MJ was of the 19 years his career spanned. Partial Case Closed!

4) POSITION-DOMINANCE: Everyone rightly agrees that (until recently, post-Shaq) the Center position has always been, by far the most dominant. KAJ dominated the other centers during his 20 years MORE than MJ did the other SG's of his 19 year career-spanning period. AND the Centers of KAJ's 2 decades were far superior to the SG's of MJ's. Partial Case Closed!


5) PLAY-OFF SUCCESS: KAJ made 10 Finals in his first 19 years; MJ made 6 Finals during the 19 years his career spanned (he does NOT get positive credit for years he quit !; he DOES get negative credit for quitting!) Besides them both winning the Finals 6 times each; KAJ made it thru TO the Finals 4 other times; while MJ's teams failed to make it to the Finals in his 4 other best Play-Off years). Overall, KAJ's teams did FAR better in the Play-Offs than did MJ's. Partial Case Closed!

6) DEFENSE: True, MJ had more All-NBA Defensive First-Teams (9 Times); BUT, that's comparing the defensively relatively very weak position of Shooting Guard TO the #1 most-important defensive position: Center. KAJ had 11 All-NBA Defensive First-Teams+2nd-Teams. For me, his 11 Top-2 Rankings AT CENTER; outrank MJ's 9 Top Rankings at Shooting Guard.
Partial Case Closed!

7) FRANCHISE TURN-AROUND: KAJ joined the Milwaukee Bucks at the beginning of that franchise's 2nd year of existence. Immediately they went from being THE worst team in the League to one of the best, in only his first year. MJ did NOT do this for the Bulls. In KAJ's 2nd year, (and the Bucks' 3rd of existence), he led them to the Chip! MJ did not come close; nor has any other player EVER done anything similar. KAJ continued to keep the Bucks among the elite teams during all 6 years (his first 6) of his stay there. MJ's first 6 years resulted in nothing in comparison.
Partial Case Closed!

8) MJ QUIT (FOR 4.8 SEASONS); KAJ NEVER QUIT: Due to open and massive gambling, MJ was faced with the alternatives of either "voluntarily quitting" or being banned for life from the NBA (and all his accomplishments being erased). MJ "quit" because of his own damned fault. This is, in my book, a HUGE MARK AGAINST MJ. Then he quit for another 3 year period (4.8 potentially PRIME seasons thrown away due to his own fault). KAJ never quit. Partial Case Closed!

9) ADVANCED STATS: KAJ ABSOLUTELY DOMINATED MJ IN WIN-SHARES (and WINNING IS the name of the game!): 27.7% more total career WS. KAJ's 3 consecutive years of 71-73 absolutely crush MJ's 3 consecutive years of 88-90 (all 3 of KAJ's are better than MJ's best single year!).
In DEFENSIVE WIN-SHARES, KAJ is #3 All-Time, MJ is #21. KAJ has 50% more DWS !.
In OFFENSVIE WIN-SHARES, KAJ is #1 All-Time, MJ is #4. KAJ has almost 20% more OWS!
In WS/48, MJ is #1 All-Time, KAJ is #7. But MJ is less than 10% better in this stat. (IF he had played as many seasons as KAJ, (6.8 more full seasons than MJ actually played); almost for sure, KAJ would have ended up ahead of MJ in this stat too.
In Season by Season WS:
Best Season: KAJ (1972) 25.4 WS; MJ (1988) 21.2 WS … KAJ = 20% better
Best 3 Consecutive Seasons: KAJ (71-73) 69.6 WS; MJ (88-90) 60.0 … KAJ = 16% better
Best 5 Consecutive Seasons: KAJ (70-74) 101.8 WS; MJ (88-92) 98.0 … KAJ = 4% better

In PER (which downplays DEFENSE; where KAJ clearly dominates MJ), MJ is #1, KAJ is #11. MJ is 13.5% better (though this too would have almost assuredly been brought lower ). But KAJ’s 15 first years vs MJ’s 15 years: KAJ 389.2; MJ 410.6, so MJ is 7.6 % better (BUT these were not consecutive years in MJ’s case).

10) HYPE: MJ TOTALLY DOMINATED KAJ: Only here does MJ clearly dominate KAJ. During KAJ's first 10 years, the NBA was suffering thru it's worst 10-year period ever, publicity-wise. This was due to drugs (and the competition from the ABA). Everybody who played during the decade of the 1970's is cast in a much more negative light because of these things. Then, KAJ was one terrible interview; the polar opposite of the MJ. Is it any wonder, especially for those who never experienced KAJ's 15++ years of total dominance; the MJ-HYPE overwhelms the KAJ anti-hype.

I remember when MJ QUIT for the first time; he was already being hailed as the GOAT (with only 3 Chips! and only 8 Great Years (HALF of what KAJ had had). That's what SUPER-HYPE can do for MJ.
Partial "Case" Closed!

Most of you may not like it at all; but at least I have had the guts to make a solid case that somebody (KAJ in particular) had a better career.

JordansBulls
06-26-2014, 10:27 PM
Now all of that is looking at accolades, so how do we go even further in deciding who is the best as we can't just use titles alone. Well what did they did yearly and in the playoffs?

Highest PPG Average: 30.12
Most seasons leading league in Points: 11
Most scoring titles: 10
Highest PER Efficiency: 27.91
Also, MJ is no doubt the greatest playoff performer and IMO he was the greatest Road Player Ever. Most of his greatest feats happened on the road.
The Playoffs is where you make your name and where greatness is defined.

Playoffs

Most Points Per Game (min. 25 games)
33.4 by Michael Jordan (179 games)

Most Points in a Game
63 by Michael Jordan

Most 50 Point Games
8 by Michael Jordan

Most 40 Point Games
38 by Michael Jordan

Most 30 Point Games
109 by Michael Jordan

Most 20 Point Games
174 by Michael Jordan (he played 179 playoff games and scored under 20 only 5 times)
-Highest PER Efficiency Playoffs: 28.59

MJ got 8 games of 40+ in one postseason alone and he has more than double the 50+ point games and more than double the 40+ point games than any player in NBA History for the Playoffs (where everything matters)



Most Career 40+ Point Games in Playoffs History

1. MJ = 38
2. West = 20
3. Baylor = 14
4. Wilt = 13
Kobe = 13
6. Shaq = 12
7. Hakeem = 11
Lebron = 11
9. Iverson = 10


Most Career 30+ Point Games in Playoffs History
MJ - 109
Kobe - 88
Kareem - 75
West -74
Baylor - 60



MJ:
NBA Regular-season records Michael Jordan holds:
-Most seasons leading league in scoring: 10
-Highest scoring average, career: 30.12ppg
-Most consecutive points, one game: 23
-Most seasons leading league in field goals made: 10
-Most consecutive gms in double figures in scoring:
866
-Most consecutive seasons leading PER: 7
-Highest career PER: 27.91
-Oldest player to score 40+ points: age 40 (43 pts)
-Oldest player to score 50+ points: age 38 (51 pts)
NBA Regular-season records Michael Jordan shares:
-Most consecutive seasons leading league in scoring:
7 (tied with Wilt Chamberlain)
-Most consecutive seasons, 2,000 plus points: 11 (Tied
with Malone)

NBA Playoff records Michael Jordan holds:
-Highest scoring average, career: 33.4ppg
-Record Total points: 5987
-Record Most FTS made: 1463
-Most points playoffs, one-game: 63
-Most points playoffs, three-game series: 135 (vs.
Miami, 1992)
-Most Points playoffs, five-game series: 226 (vs.
Cleveland, 1988)
-Most field goals made playoffs, three-game series:
53 (vs. Miami, 1992)
-Most field goals made playoffs, five-game series: 86
(vs. Philadelphia, 1990)
-Most field goals made playoffs, six-game series: 101
(vs. Phoenix, 1993)
-Most consecutive 50pt games: 2
-Most consecutive 45pt games: 3
-Most consecutive games, 20 plus points: 60
-Most free throws made, one quarter: 13
-Most free throws attempted, one quarter: 14
-Most 50 point games: 8
-Most 40 point games: 39
-Most consecutive points: 23
NBA Playoff records Michael Jordan shares:
-Most field goals, in a game: 24 (vs. Cleveland, May
1, 1988; tied with two others)
-Most three-point field goals made, one half: 6
(first half vs. Portland, June 3, 1992; tied with four
others)
NBA Finals records Michael Jordan holds:
- Highest Scoring average: 33.6
-Most points, six-game series: 246 (vs. Phoenix,
1993)
-Most field goals made, five-game series: 63 (vs.
L.A. Lakers, 1991)
-Most field goals made, six-game series: 101 (vs.
Phoenix, 1993)
-Most steals, five-game series: 14 (vs. L.A. Lakers,
1991)
-Highest scoring average, one series: 41.0 (vs.
Phoenix, 1993)
-Most consecutive games, 40-plus points: 4 (June 11,
1993 to June 18, 1993)
-Most consecutive 30 point games: 9
-Most consecutive games, 20-plus points: 29 (June 22,
1991 to June 1997)
-Most points, one-half: 35 (vs. Portland, June 3,
1992)
-Most consecutive field goals: 13 (Vs. LA)
-Most consecutive points: 23 (Vs. Seattle)
-Most Finals MVPs: 6



Conclusion: MJ still owns the most
scoring records as well as ALMOST ALL THE PLAYOFF
Records. Take a look at the all time scoring feats at
the bottom. MJ has 21 of them and the most important
ones, Wilt has 16, Kobe has 1. Take away Wilt and MJ
climbs to 26 and Kobe has 8. Below that are MJ's
records and KB's records. Not even close.
Here's a list of ALL-TIME SCORING RECORDS.
- Highest career scoring average: MJ 30.12
- Highest career playoff scoring average: MJ 33.4
- Highest career Finals scoring average: MJ 33.6
- Highest single season scoring average: Wilt 50.4
- Highest single series playoff average: West 46.3
- Highest single Finals series average: MJ 41.0
- Most seasons leading league in scoring: MJ 10
- Most consecutive seasons leading in scoring: MJ,
Wilt tied at 7
- Most 50 point games: Wilt 118
- Most 50 point games playoffs: MJ 8
- Most 40 point games: Wilt 271
- Most 40 point games playoffs: MJ 42
- Most consecutive 60 point games: Wilt 4
- Most consecutive 50 point games: Wilt 7
- Most consecutive 50 point games in playoffs: MJ 2
- Most consecutive 45 point games: Wilt 7
- Most consecutive 45 point games playoffs: MJ 3
- Most consecutive 40 point games: Wilt 14
- Most consecutive 40 point games rookie: AI 5
- Most consecutive 40 point games playoffs: West 6
- Most consecutive 40 point games finals: MJ 4
- Most consecutive 35 point games: Wilt 33
- Most consecutive 30 point games: Wilt 65
- Most consecutive 30 point games playoffs: Elgin 11
- Most consecutive 30 point games finals: MJ 9
- Most consecutive 20 point games: Wilt 126
- Most consecutive 20 point games playoffs: MJ 60
- Most consecutive 20 point games finals: MJ 35
- Most consecutive double figures scoring: MJ 866
- Most consecutive points in one game: MJ 23
- Most consecutive points in one game playoffs: MJ 23
- Highest scoring game: Wilt 100
- Highest scoring game playoffs: MJ 63
- Highest scoring game finals: Elgin 61
- Highest scoring game rookie: Wilt 58
- Highest scoring all-star game: Wilt 42
- Highest scoring all-rookie game: Kobe 31
- Most points in 3 quarters: Wilt 69
- Most points in one half: Wilt 59
- Most points one half playoffs: Sleepy Floyd 39
- Most points in one half finals: MJ 35
- Most points one half all-star game: Rice 24
- Most points in one quarter: Gervin 33
- Most points in one quarter playoffs: Sleepy Floyd 29
- Most points in one quarter finals: Isiah 25
- Most points in one quarter all-star game: Rice 20
- Most points in OT: Arenas 16
- Most points in OT playoffs: Drexler 13
- Most points in OT in finals: Havlicek, Laimbeer,
Ainge tied at 9
- Oldest to score 50: MJ 51 at age 38
- Oldest to score 40: MJ 43 at age 40


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/2002/playoffs/top_individual_points/
Top Playoff Single-Game Scoring Performances
Player Team Opponent Total Date
Michael Jordan Chicago at Boston 63 April 20, 1986
Elgin Baylor L.A. Lakers at Boston 61 April 14, 1962
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Syracuse 56 March 22, 1962
Michael Jordan Chicago at Miami 56 April 29, 1992
Charles Barkley Phoenix at Golden State 56 May 4, 1994
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 55 May 1, 1988
Michael Jordan Chicago Phoenix 55 June 16, 1993
Michael Jordan Chicago Washington 55 April 27, 1997
John Havlicek Boston Atlanta 54 April 1, 1973
Michael Jordan Chicago New York 54 May 31, 1993
Allen Iverson Philadelphia Toronto 54 May 9, 2001
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Syracuse 53 March 14, 1960
Jerry West L.A. Lakers Boston 53 April 23, 1969
Jerry West L.A. Lakers Baltimore 52 April 5, 1965
Allen Iverson Philadelphia Toronto 52 May 16, 2001
Sam Jones Boston at New York 51 March 28, 1967
Eric Floyd Golden State L.A. Lakers 51 May 10, 1987
Bob Cousy Boston Syracuse 50* March 21, 1953
Bob Petit St. Louis Boston 50 April 12, 1958
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia at Boston 50 March 22, 1950
Wilt Chamberlain San Francisco St. Louis 50 April 10, 1964
Billy Cunningham Philadelphia Milwaukee 50 April 1, 1970
Bob McAdoo Buffalo Washington 50 April 18, 1975
Dominique Wilkins Atlanta Detroit 50 April 19, 1986
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50 April 28, 1988
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50^ May 5, 1989
Karl Malone Utah Seattle 50 April 22, 2000
Vince Carter Toronto Philadelphia 50 May 11, 2001
*4 overtimes
^overtime


NBA PLAYOFFS HIGH SCORING GAME BY YEAR
1946-47 - 37 Joe Fulks, PHW vs CHI at PHW 16Apr47
1947-48 - 34 Connie Simmons, BLT vs NYK at BLT 27Mar48
1948-49 - 42 George Mikan, MPL vs WSC 4Apr49 @ MPL
1949-50 - 40 George Mikan, MPL vs SYR at MPL 23Apr50
1950-51 - 41 George Mikan, MPL vs IDS at MPL 21Mar51
1951-52 - 47 George Mikan, MPL at ROC 29Mar52
1952-53 - 50 Bob Cousy, BOS vs SYR at BOS 21Mar53
1953-54 - 36 Dolph Schayes, SYR at NYK 21Mar54
1954-55 - 32 Bill Sharman, BOS at SYR 24Mar55
1955-56 - 43 Neil Johnson, PHW at SYR 25Mar56
1956-57 - 42 Bob Leonard, MPL vs STL at MPL 25Mar57
1957-58 - 50 Bob Pettit, STL vs BOS at STL 12Apr58
1958-59 - 40 Cliff Hagan, STL vs MPL at STL 21Mar59
1959-60 - 53 Wilt Chamberlain, PHW vs SYR at PHW 14Mar60
1960-61 - 47 Elgin Baylor, LAL at DET 18Mar61
............... 47 Elgin Baylor, LAL at STL 27Mar61
1961-62 - 61 Elgin Baylor, LAL at BOS 14Apr62
1962-63 - 47 Sam Jones, BOS vs CIN at BOS 10Apr63
1963-64 - 50 Wilt Chamberlain, SFW vs STL at SFW 10Apr64
1964-65 - 52 Jerry West, LAL vs BAL at LAL 3Apr65
1965-66 - 46 Wilt Chamberlain, PHI vs BOS at PHI 12Apr66
1966-67 - 55 Rick Barry, SFW vs PHI at SFW 18Apr67
1967-68 - 46 Zelmo Beaty, STL vs SFW 23Mar68 @ STL
1968-69 - 53 Jerry West, LAL vs BOS at LAL 23Apr69
1969-70 - 50 Billy Cunningham, PHI vs MIL at PHI 1Apr70
1970-71 - 39 Gail Goodrich, LAL at CHI 28Mar71
1971-72 - 43 John Havlicek BOS at ATL 31Mar72
1972-73 - 54 John Havlicek, BOS vs ATL at BOS 1Apr73
1973-74 - 44 Bob McAdoo, BUF vs BOS 6Apr74 at BUF
............... 44 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, MIL at CHI 18Apr74
1974-75 - 50 Bob McAdoo, BUF vs WAS at BUF 18Apr75
1975-76 - 45 Fred Brown, SEA vs PHO at SEA 15Apr76
1976-77 - 45 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, LAL vs GSW at LAL 29Apr77
1977-78 - 46 George Gervin, SAN vs WAS at SAN 18Apr78
1978-79 - 42 George Gervin, SAN vs WAS at SAN 11May79
............... 42 George Gervin, SAN at WAS 18May79
1979-80 - 44 George Gervin, SAN vs HOU at SAN 4Apr80
1980-81 - 42 Calvin Murphy, HOU at SAN 17Apr81
............... 42 Moses Malone, HOU vs KCK at HOU 26Apr81
1981-82 - 39 George Gervin, SAN vs LAL at SAN 14May82
............... 39 Andrew Toney, PHI vs BOS at PHI 16May82
1982-83 - 42 Alex English, DEN vs PHO at PHO 24Apr83
............... 42 George Gervin, SAN at DEN 26Apr83
1983-84 - 46 Bernard King, NYK at DET 19Apr84
............... 46 Bernard King, NYK vs DET at NYK 22Apr84
1984-85 - 43 Rolando Blackman, DAL vs POR at DAL 18Apr85
............... 43 Larry Bird, BOS vs DET at BOS 8May85
1985-86 - 63 Michael Jordan, CHI at BOS 20Apr86
1986-87 - 51 Sleepy Floyd, GSW vs LAL at GSW 10May87
1987-88 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI 1May88
1988-89 - 50 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI 5May89
1989-90 - 49 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI 11May90
1990-91 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI 10May91
1991-92 - 56 Michael Jordan, CHI at MIA 29Apr92
1992-93 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO at CHI 16Jun93
1993-94 - 56 Charles Barkley, PHO at GSW 4May94
1994-95 - 48 Michael Jordan, CHI at CHA 28Apr95
1995-96 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at NYK 11May96
1996-97 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs WAS at CHI 27Apr97
1997-98 - 45 Michael Jordan, CHI at UTA 14Jun98
1998-99 - 37 Tim Duncan, SAN at LAL 22May99
............... 37 Scottie Pippen, HOU vs LAL at HOU 13May99
............... 37 Shaquille O'Neal, LAL vs HOU at HOU 15May99
............... 37 Allen Iverson, PHI vs ORL at PHI 15May99
1999-00 - 50 Karl Malone, UTA vs SEA at UTA 22Apr00

-----

ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES, NBA PLAYOFFS
Jerry West, LAL vs BAL, 1965..... 46.3
Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE, 1988..... 45.2
Michael Jordan, CHI vs MIA, 1992..... 45.0

ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES, NBA CHAMPIONSHIP SERIES/NBA FINALS
Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO, 1993..... 41.0
Rick Barry, SFW vs PHI, 1965..... 40.8
Elgin Baylor, LAL vs BOS, 1962..... 40.6


Also MJ has 6 series in the playoffs over 40+ ppg.


http://www.usatoday.com/sports/columnist/zillgitt/2004-06-15-zillgitt_x.htm
Here were the requirements
NBA ALL-TIME LEADERS:
(All statistical records + playoff records + career averages + playoff averages + MVPs + Finals MVPs + Rings + All-1st teams + All-1st Defensive Teams + All-star games + All-star MVPS)
This is how it broke down each category:
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/2003-02-06-dupree-team_x.htm

This is how it broke down each category:
NBA MVP awards won (five points each)
NBA championships won (five points each)
All-Star Games selected to play in (one point each)
All-NBA first-team selections (two points each)
All-defensive first team (one point each)
NBA Finals MVP awards (two points each)
All-Star MVP awards (one point each)
Individual statistical titles (two points each) — restricted to points, rebounds, assists, field goal percentage and free throw percentage, the stats the league has used the longest
Career averages (six points each) — if a player is the NBA career leader in scoring average, rebounds, assists, field goal percentage or free throw percentage
Career playoff averages (five points each) — for each category the player leads

That was the criteria used
1st Place: MJ, 149 total points
2nd Place: Wilt, 124 total points
3rd Place: Bill, 118 total points
4th Place: Jabbar, 114 total points
5th Place: Magic, 102 total points

Now adding up the current players you get (Active Players):
1st Place: Shaq, 87 total points
2nd Place: KB, 80 total points
3rd Place: Tim, 75 total points


All of these players below lost with either Homecourt Advantage, Top seed, Better Record or Same RecordIf year is mentioned then it means they lost with HCA. Otherwise top seed or identical record is mentioned


Kareem (lost in ’72-73, ’73-74 (lost game 7 of the NBA Finals at home vs Boston), ’76-77, ’80-81, ’85-86)
Wilt Chamberlain (lost in ’60-61, ’65-66, ’67-68 ((lost game 7 of the ECF at home vs Boston), ’68-69 ((lost game 7 of the NBA Finals at home vs Boston), ’72-73)
Bill Russell (lost in 1958)
Magic Johnson (lost in ’80-81, ’85-86, ’89-90)
Larry Bird (lost in ’79-80, ’81-82, ’82-83, ’84-85, ’87-88, '89-90, '90-91)
Shaq (lost in ’93-94, ’94-95, ’03-04, '04-05, '09-10)
Hakeem (lost in ’84-85, ’86-87, '98-99 same record and in 1993 with same record against Seattle)
Duncan (lost in ’00-01, ’03-04, '05-06, '08-09, '10-11, '11-12)
Oscar Robertson (lost in ’61-62, ’64-65, ’72-73, ’73-74)
Jerry West (lost in ’68-69, ’72-73)
Dr J (lost in '81-82, '83-84)
Moses Malone (lost in '83-84, '88-89)
Karl Malone and John Stockton (lost in '97-98, '00-01, '94-95)
Garnett (lost in '02-03, '03-04)
Barkley (lost in '92-93, '94-95, '98-99)
Pippen (lost in '98-99 with identical record)
John Havlicek (lost in 1972-1973, '74-75 (same record)
Kobe (lost in '03-04 with HCA and '10-11 with HCA in a sweep)
Patrick Ewing (lost in '92-93, '94-95)
David Robinson (lost in '93-94, '94-95, '95-96)
Bob Pettit (lost in '58-59)
George Mikan (lost in '50-51)
Isiah Thomas (lost in '83-84)
Willis Reed (lost in '68-69, '70-71)
Walt Frazier (lost in '68-69, '70-71)
Rick Barry (lost in '75-76)
Adrian Dantley (lost in '83-84)
Gary Payton (lost in '93-94, '97-98)
Lebron (lost in '08-09, '09-10 with best record both years, '10-11)
Dwyane Wade (lost in '04-05, '10-11)
Kevin Durant (lost in '11-12, '12-13)

Now I might as missed some years for a few players, but I thought that was interesting. The only top 20 player Ever who never lost a series with either the Same Record, Higher Seed, Top Seed or Home court Advantage was Jordan. He was 25-0 in all with HCA and Top Seed along with same record and 24-0 in series with HCA



Also consider the following:
Is 18% a good percentage?
In what you might ask... 18% winning percentage...
Pretty awful right?
Well in 60 years of NBA Basketball only 11 league leading scorers have won a championship... That's 18.333333%...
Their names are: Shaquille O'Neal, Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, George Mikan and some guy named Joe Fulks...
Most of these players were dominant Centers, who did more than just score.
That means that non center players who led the league in scoring have won in an amazing 10% of the time.. and only one player did it... Michael Jordan. In one era. That phenomenon of nature who won six...
10% winning historically!!! 10 PERCENT!!!
I will argue that the odds are against a high scoring guard from winning it all.
Would you?
I will argue that who ever is the only one to do that should be considered a truly great.. would you?
I will say that the way to go is to build a team in which you get many other good options to score, a balanced attack?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html


MJ has led in Offensive Win Shares 8x, and was 2nd 3x.



OWS

Offensive Win Shares (available since the 1977-78 season in NBA); please see the article Calculating Win Shares for more information.

Offensive Win Shares are credited to players based on Dean Oliver's Offensive Ratings

1.) Offensive Win Shares

1984-85 NBA 10.3 (2)
1986-87 NBA 11.9 (2)
1987-88 NBA 15.2 (1)
1988-89 NBA 14.6 (1)
1989-90 NBA 14.7 (1)
1990-91 NBA 14.9 (1)
1991-92 NBA 12.1 (1)
1992-93 NBA 12.0 (1)
1995-96 NBA 14.2 (1)
1996-97 NBA 13.3 (1)
1997-98 NBA 10.4 (2)


2.) MJ has led in Win Shares 9x, and was 2nd 2x


WS
Win Shares (available since the 1977-78 season in NBA); please see the article Calculating Win Shares for more information.

A Win Share is worth one-third of a team win. Win Shares are assigned to players based on their offense, defense, and playing time.

Win Shares
1984-85 NBA 14.0 (2)
1986-87 NBA 16.9 (1)
1987-88 NBA 21.2 (1)
1988-89 NBA 19.8 (1)
1989-90 NBA 19.0 (1)
1990-91 NBA 20.3 (1)
1991-92 NBA 17.7 (1)
1992-93 NBA 17.2 (1)
1995-96 NBA 20.4 (1)
1996-97 NBA 18.3 (1)
1997-98 NBA 15.8 (2)


3.)

Win Shares Per 48 Minutes

1984-85 NBA 0.213 (3)
1986-87 NBA 0.247 (2)
1987-88 NBA 0.308 (1)
1988-89 NBA 0.292 (1)
1989-90 NBA 0.285 (1)
1990-91 NBA 0.321 (1)
1991-92 NBA 0.274 (1)
1992-93 NBA 0.270 (1)
1995-96 NBA 0.317 (1)
1996-97 NBA 0.283 (1)
1997-98 NBA 0.238 (3)
Career NBA 0.251 (1)
Career 0.251 (1)


Also for the playoffs MJ leads in:
Also Jordan has led in PER 7x, Win Shares 8x, OWS 8x, WSAA 8x in the season.
-Highest PER Efficiency Playoffs: 28.59
-Most Offensive Win Shares Playoffs - 27.32
-Most Win Shares Playoffs - 39.76

Also MJ has led in PER 6x in the playoffs, OWS 6x and Win Shares 7x in the playoffs.
Kobe has yet to lead in any of them in any given season


In my mind MJ is the GOAT, and I provided ample evidence of why I feel that way, but it is really close as guys like Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Magic and Bird on right their in the discussion, but when you consider how good MJ was on both ends of the court and how efficient he was as a player and the fact that he was a guard that in itself helps his case much more.
Also let's not forget MJ is currently the only player to average 30+ ppg for a career in the playoffs and he is the only one to do so in the season, playoffs and finals and he has the highest average in each of them and his has the most playoff points ever.

Here was a clip in 1993 where even Jerry West mentioned MJ was the best
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1mFE_ekV7E&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZquLVr3MeGk&feature=related
@ the 1:30 mark, Dick Stockton refers to Jerry West mentioning that MJ was the greatest ever period.

Pat Riley mentions that Jordan will always be considered the best
http://youtube.com/watch?v=0565oawy9Ak

7:55 mark Isiah Thomas debates on why MJ was the best over Wilt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nP-Rm2atzU0


4:59 mark --> Magic Johnson calls Michael Jordan the "best ever" in 1993
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w&feature=related


http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/2003-02-06-dupree-team_x.htm

Magic Johnson says there is no debate.
"Michael is the greatest player ever, and Bill Russell is the greatest winner ever and always will be

Oh and you can see some of the numbers above.


To show the greatness of MJ he never has had a playoff series where he was outscored nor has he ever had a series where he averaged less than 26.6 ppg. Also MJ averaged over 31+ ppg in every playoffs after his rookie year (where he averaged 29.3 ppg in his rookie year)
Jordan's playoffs career average is: 33.4 PPG / 6.4 RPG / 5.7 APG / 2.1 SPG / 0.9 BPG / 49% FG / 28.59 PER (to put in retrospect Kobe has never even put those numbers up in any playoff year and Kobe's best PER in the playoffs was not as good as MJ's average)

JordansBulls
06-26-2014, 10:30 PM
--------- RS PER, WS48, --------- PER, WS48 playoffs
Jordan 91: 31.7, 0.32 -----------32.0, 0.33 (17 playoff game, title)
KAJ 1971: 29.0, 0.33, -----------25.0, 0.27 (14 playoff games, title)
Shaq 2000: 30.6, 0.28, --------- 30.5, 0.22 (23 playoff games, title)
Wilt 1967: 26.5, .285------------25.3, 0.25 (15 playoff games, title)

MJ had the highest PER in the season and playoffs and WS/PER 48 minutes for a player that won a title that season. Since Regular WS are based on total number of games played in the playoffs that wouldn't factor in as much if you getting extended more games against inferior teams.

JordansBulls
06-26-2014, 10:40 PM
the reason why Jordan is the greatest in my eyes is because he ranks so high (many times #1) in so many metrics and also has the most complete resume of all the greats imo

#1 in PPG
#1 in PER
#1 in win shares per 48
#1 in MVP award shares

#1 in playoff win shares
#1 in playoff win shares per 48
#1 in playoff PPG
#1 in playoff points
#1 in playoff PER

He was also a DPOY, which is pretty rare for a perimeter player and especially a MVP caliber one that carries the offensive load that he did.

thenaj17
06-27-2014, 07:57 AM
I'm astonished people have voted LeBron 10 times and Kobe 4. Not a chance either are even top 3 (yet)

hidalgo
06-27-2014, 09:15 AM
the numbers, awards, & all the insane moments, Michael was just un freaking believable. bow down

His Airness

Pablonovi
06-27-2014, 10:53 PM
Now all of that is looking at accolades, so how do we go even further in deciding who is the best as we can't just use titles alone. Well what did they did yearly and in the playoffs?

[SNIP]

Also, MJ is no doubt the greatest playoff performer and IMO he was the greatest Road Player Ever. Most of his greatest feats happened on the road.
The Playoffs is where you make your name and where greatness is defined.

[SNIP]

Hey JB,
I listed 9 areas (much more than mere accolades) where KAJ outperformed MJ. 9 areas !!!
You responded to ZERO of them; instead just trying to label an in-depth analysis as "mere accolades").

Your problem is that you cherry pick.

Now you want to focus on the Play-Offs; OK fine:

What do we know as fact:
In their careers:
In the 19-20 years that their careers spanned:
KAJ made the Play-Offs 18 Times
MJ made the Play-Offs 13 Times (a LOT less times, as any one can see).
(And in two of those years, MJ played less than 20 games, so he didn't do much at all to get his team into the Play-Offs - that then is only 11 Times even making the Play-Offs during the 19 years his career spanned).

KAJ made the Finals 10 of those 18 Times (more than half)
MJ made the Finals 6 of those 13 Times (less than half)

With the SOLE exception of Russell's All-Star Celtics (who EASILY) had the highest percentage of All-Stars and HOFers on one squad than any teams in history AND the most-ahead-of-his-time GM/Coach - Red Auerbach); in ALL other cases, even GOAT Top 10 guys have had a hard time making it to the Finals during most years of their careers. NO ONE beats KAJ with his 10; MJ's 6 pale in comparison.

Winning at home is actually at least as important if not more important than winning on the road (after all, that's why teams fight thru 82 games to get home court advantage.)

How does one explain that KAJ made it thru the Play-Offs to the Finals 67% more times than did MJ?

How does one explain that in their best 10 Play-Off Runs:
KAJ made the Finals ALL 10 Times
MJ made the Finals only 6 Times (losing the other 4 times in earlier rounds, often in very early rounds).

These numbers indicate CLEARLY that KAJ was the better Play-Off performer than MJ.

Then, one can resort to addressing the teammate question.
Clearly Magic was better than Pippen.
But we should also NOT make short shrift of the fact that the Bulls had THREE top defenders out of their starting 5s for all six Chips. (MJ, Pippen & either Horace Grant or Dennis Rodman).
And everybody says that Defense Wins Championships.

Horace Grant was an top-quality player on both ends of the court.
During the 2nd 3-Peat, MJ, Pippen & Rodman were THREE of the top FIVE defenders in the entire League.
Talked about STACKED!

LA_Raiders
06-27-2014, 11:17 PM
MJ 1a Kobe 1b

Pablonovi
06-28-2014, 01:31 AM
I am gonna call the voting now. It's easier for me to get these up before 10AM so I'm going to start the new one now to get that trend going. If a mod wants to close this, feel free to. If not, that's cool. Either way, unsticky plz.

Hey ManRam,
My suggestion to you is to allow more time for the discussions about the TOP 10 GOAT candidates than for those in the rest of the Top 25; and more for them for those in the rest of the top 50-100. After all, people will tend to feel much less strongly the lower we get. And besides, "there's more at stake"; so leaving more time might allow some of us to convince or be convinced by arguments that others had not yet thought about it (or thought about enough). No?

JordansBulls
06-28-2014, 09:46 AM
Hey JB,
I listed 9 areas (much more than mere accolades) where KAJ outperformed MJ. 9 areas !!!
You responded to ZERO of them; instead just trying to label an in-depth analysis as "mere accolades").

Your problem is that you cherry pick.

Now you want to focus on the Play-Offs; OK fine:

What do we know as fact:
In their careers:
In the 19-20 years that their careers spanned:
KAJ made the Play-Offs 18 Times
MJ made the Play-Offs 13 Times (a LOT less times, as any one can see).
(And in two of those years, MJ played less than 20 games, so he didn't do much at all to get his team into the Play-Offs - that then is only 11 Times even making the Play-Offs during the 19 years his career spanned).

KAJ made the Finals 10 of those 18 Times (more than half)
MJ made the Finals 6 of those 13 Times (less than half)

With the SOLE exception of Russell's All-Star Celtics (who EASILY) had the highest percentage of All-Stars and HOFers on one squad than any teams in history AND the most-ahead-of-his-time GM/Coach - Red Auerbach); in ALL other cases, even GOAT Top 10 guys have had a hard time making it to the Finals during most years of their careers. NO ONE beats KAJ with his 10; MJ's 6 pale in comparison.

Winning at home is actually at least as important if not more important than winning on the road (after all, that's why teams fight thru 82 games to get home court advantage.)

How does one explain that KAJ made it thru the Play-Offs to the Finals 67% more times than did MJ?

How does one explain that in their best 10 Play-Off Runs:
KAJ made the Finals ALL 10 Times
MJ made the Finals only 6 Times (losing the other 4 times in earlier rounds, often in very early rounds).

These numbers indicate CLEARLY that KAJ was the better Play-Off performer than MJ.

Then, one can resort to addressing the teammate question.
Clearly Magic was better than Pippen.
But we should also NOT make short shrift of the fact that the Bulls had THREE top defenders out of their starting 5s for all six Chips. (MJ, Pippen & either Horace Grant or Dennis Rodman).
And everybody says that Defense Wins Championships.

Horace Grant was an top-quality player on both ends of the court.
During the 2nd 3-Peat, MJ, Pippen & Rodman were THREE of the top FIVE defenders in the entire League.
Talked about STACKED!

Kareem missed the playoffs twice in his prime in the 70's when the league's were split. He lost with HCA 5times. He played 20 seasons not 18. He had two top 10 players all time when he won and in his first 10 years in the league won 1 title as the man. He won a total of 2 titles as the man. He made the finals 3 times as the man and the rest of the time he was the #2 option making the finals 7 times. You do not get credit for how many times you make the finals as the #2 or #3 option which he was a few times. He has had 2 other teammates win finals mvp's and two other teammates win league mvp.
Jordan was a much much better player than Kareem in the playoffs. Kareem played 50 more games and MJ had a higher total win shares, Higher WS/PER 48 minutes, more overall points, more finals mvp and higher career averages. Not even close actually.


people are acting as if regular season was the end of debate. there is, however, a considerably more important part of the season, playoffs. MVPs, DPOYs, all-NBA/all-D selections and such awards are RS awards. none of them have anything to do with the postseason.

if we evaluate players by postseason play, MJ, Hakeem and Kareem are TOP3.

KAJ had too many letdowns in the playoffs to put him in a serious debate with these guys. he was arguably outplayed by Reed in '70, struggled in '71 until the finals, struggled in '72 and '73 (outplayed by Wilt and Thurmond), played very well against Cowens in '74 finals but lost in game 7. that's first part of his career. he had very capable teams those years and managed to win only one title and that's without any competition whatsoever as '71 Bucks had possibly the easiest way to the title ever. I think it's a big knock on KAJ in this debate, because neither Olajuwon nor Jordan had that many underachieving postseasons. it's not about team not winning a title, it's about title-caliber team underperforming as a direct result of Kareem's play.

and there's more... missed playoffs in '75 despite the fact Bucks made them the next year (without KAJ), then again missed playoffs in '76 with the Lakers while they were already a 30W team the year before (without KAJ). I'm questioning his impact in those years - his trade should've turned around those franchises and that did NOT happen.


wins ED SRS
75 Bucks (with) 38 +0.2 +0.25
76 Bucks (without) 38 -1.4 -1.56

75 Lakers (without) 30 -3.8 -3.94
76 Lakers (with) 40 +0.1 +0.17

then you have years of relatively good teammates and no postseason success. in '77 he's playing with Don Chaney (5 time all-defense) and good role players in Lucius Allen, Cazzie Russell and Kermit Washington (20% TRB). if you look at those names you'd think it's a terrible supporting cast but that was a specific year and no star had great teammates. he didn't have markedly worse partners than Dr J or Bill Walton... and yet he was swept by Walton's Portland that year... as he was another guy who arguably outplayed him. in '78 Kareem is playing with Dantley, Charlie Scott, Nixon, Washington, Wilkes and Lou Hudson but they're stopped by the injuries in the RS. in the playoffs though, KAJ, Scott, Dantley, Hudson, Nixon and Wilkes are all playing... and they're out in the first round against Sonics with DJ Sikma etc. I wouldn't mind them losing if it wasn't for the fact that KAJ could've played much better - he struggled to score with 52.6% TS. similar story in '79 - KAJ/Wilkes/Dantley/Nixon/Hudson is playing the Sonics... and they lost again. I'd say they underpeformed again considering their line-up, but at least KAJ played great so I won't blame him.

all in all you have
-arguably outplayed by Reed in '70
-struggling until the finals (facing Wilt and Thurmond) in '71
-meltdown in '72 (Wilt outplayed him)
-epic fail in '73 (Thurmond outplayed him)
-came up short against Cowens as Celtics won 4-3
-missed playoffs in '75 with Bucks (they make the playoffs the year after that without KAJ)
-missed playoffs in '76 (they were 30W team before his arrival)
-swept by Walton in '77
-underperformed in '78 against Sonics, struggled again
-lost to eventual champs in '79

that's not a great playoff resume without Magic.

so while we're left with Air and Dream, I'm going with either without any issues. I haven't seen Rockets management regretting their selection in '84 draft. once the playoffs start, these are TOP2 players ever.


Kareem's poor play in '72 and '73 directly contributed to his team losing these years. Bucks were legit title contenders, Kareem had excellent support and he should be blamed appropriately.

In 1973 the Bucks were 60-22 and they lost in round 1 to the 47-35 Warriors.


Kareem vs.
Jordan is pretty ridiculous. In the "Kareem w/o Magic" vs. "MJ w/o Pippen"
he makes no mention that for half of that time Kareem had Oscar,
and he also doesn't take into account that Jordan did lead the Bulls to
successful years when Pippen was a scrub/role player.
And also, he also doesn't take into account that Magic was way more important
to the Lakers then Pippen was to the Bulls, and for the vast majority of the 80s,
Magic was the better player then Kareem.
The most ridiculous thing about the Kareem vs. Jordan comparison is
that he equates Jordan's 6 rings with Kareem's 6 rings. Sure,
technically they have the same amount, but its pretty clear that
Jordan was more important to his championship teams then Kareem,
especially since many of Kareem's titles were won as not the best player of his team,
and some not even the 2nd best.

Pablonovi
06-29-2014, 10:36 PM
Kareem Utterly DOMINATED 13 Of The All-Time Greatest Centers (during KAJ's career)

Consider how KAJ "fared" in his first 17 years against 13 (=most) of the All-Time Greatest Centers:
Chronologically: Wilt Chamberlain, Willis Reed, Mel Daniels, Dave Cowens, Dan Issel, Bob McAdoo, Artis Gilmore, Bill Walton, Moses Malone, Robert Parish, Hakeem Olajuwon & Patrick Ewing.

Based on comparing their rankings/selections on the All-NBA 1st-Teams & 2nd-Teams:

KAJ crushed Wilt ......... 4-0
KAJ crushed Reed ....... 4-1 (in 1970,despite (1st Year) KAJ having WAY better stats, Willis was voted 1st-Tm).
KAJ crushed Daniels ... 7-0 (Daniels played 5 of these yrs (70-75) in the ABA. KAJ was clearly better).
KAJ crushed Unseld … 13-0 (In 1969, the yr before KAJ began playing, Unseld was ALL-NBA 1st-Tm & MVP.)
KAJ crushed Cowens . 12-1 (In 1975*, despite KAJ having WAY better stats, Cowens was voted higher).
KAJ crushed Issel ......15-0 (Issel played his first 6 years (71-76) in the ABA. KAJ was clearly better).
KAJ crushed McAdoo ..13-1 (In 1975*,KAJ & McAdoo had very similar stats;but #1 McAdoo beat him in ppg).
KAJ crushed Gilmore . 15-0 (Gilmore played his first 4 years (72-75) in the ABA. KAJ was clearly better).
KAJ crushed Walton .. 11-1 (In 1978**, KAJ & #1 Walton had very similar stats, but KAJ had 7ppg more.)
KAJ crushed M.Malone 8-4 (***) (Malone played his first 2 yrs (75-76) in the ABA) KAJ was clearly better).
KAJ crushed Parish .... 9-1 (In 1982, despite KAJ having WAY better stats, Parish was voted higher).
KAJ beat Olajuwon ..... 2-0
KAJ beat Ewing .......... 1-0

* 1975, KAJ broke his hand in the pre-season, missing first 16 regular season games. This may well have cost him the ALL-NBA 1st-Team spot to Bob McAdoo & did cost him the ALL-NBA 2nd-Team spot to Cowens.

** 1978, KAJ broke his hand (in a fight) in the second minute of the first game of the regular season. He missed 2 months. The fight and/or missing those 20 games may have cost him the #1 to Walton.
***
In 1979, despite very similar stats & KAJ getting 1st-Tm Defense; Moses was voted All-NBA 1st Team.
In 1982, KAJ beat Moses by 6% shooting; but Moses had 7 more ppg & 6 more rpg & won 1st-Team.
In 1983, KAJ beat Moses by 9% shooting; but Moses had 3 more ppg & 8 more rpg & won 1st-Team.
In 1985, KAJ beat Moses by 13% shooting; but Moses had 3 more ppg & 5 more rpg & won 1st-Team.

COLLECTIVELY:
KAJ CRUSHED the field (of 13 Great Centers): 113-9 !!! (For an average of: 8.7 – 0.7)
That is total, utter, complete DOMINATION of 13 Great Players.

Remember these are not just 13 of the Greatest Centers ever, most of them are All-Time GOAT Top 50 guys. NO ONE ELSE EVER has so completely DOMINATED so many of the All-Time GOAT Top 50 guys Head-To-Head.

During his first 17 years, KAJ was:
ALL-NBA 1st-Team: 10 Times (71+MVP, 72+MVP, 73, 74+MVP, 76+MVP, 77+MVP, 80+MVP, 81, 84, 86*) * His last ALL-NBA 1st-Team came 15 yrs after his 1st one!

ALL-NBA 2nd-Team: 5 Times (70, 78, 79, 83, 85)

ALL-NBA 1st-Team + ALL-NBA 2nd-Team: 15 Times (THE Most Ever).

“ALL-NBA 3rd-Team”: 2 Times (75, 82)

(N.B. There were no official 3rd-Teams back then; but he received the 3rd most votes among the Centers).

In his 18th year, KAJ again received enough votes to have made a would-be “ALL-NBA 3rd-Team”.
- - - - -
next post:
MJ Utterly DOMINATED 13 Mostly Relatively-Mediocre “SGs” (during his 10-11 Great years)

P.S. Don't even ask how many hours all the research and writing this post took! (Yikes, tons!)

P.P.S. I originally posted this post in the Thread for discussing the GOAT #3 candidates. It much more fits here; so I've copied it over to here.

Pablonovi
06-29-2014, 10:44 PM
MJ Utterly DOMINATED 13 Mostly Relatively-Mediocre “SGs” (during his 10-11 Great Years)

These were ALL 16 of the guys who played at least some SG during the 19-year span of MJ’s career AND who won: ALL-NBA 1st-Team, ALL-NBA 2nd-Team or ALL-NBA 3rd-Team:

Moncrief (+PG), Lever (+PG), Drexler (+SF), Ellis, Dumars, Petrovic, Sprewel, Richmond, Penny Hardaway (+PG), Miller, Bryant, Iverson (+PG), Eddie Jones, McGrady(+SF), Ray Allen & Pierce (+SF).

N.B. We are not counting against MJ the 4 full seasons he QUIT, nor the 2 years where he played less than a quarter season (<20 games) 86 & 95 (and thus got beat for the ALL-NBA Teams). That leaves him only having played 13 full seasons.

But, Sprewell, Eddie Jones & Ray Allen did NOT win these awards in any of those 13 full season; so they’re out of this discussion.

These were ALL 13 of the guys who played at least some SG during MJ’s 13 full seasons, AND who won: ALL-NBA 1st-Team, ALL-NBA 2nd-Team or ALL-NBA 3rd-Team:

Moncrief (+PG), Lever (+PG), Drexler (+SF), Ellis, Dumars, Petrovic, Richmond, P.Hardaway (+PG), Miller, Bryant, Iverson (+PG), McGrady(+SF) & Pierce (+SF).

Before going any further, ask yourself, how truly great were most of these guys? A lot of you may not even know some (or many) of their first names.

First, please notice that:
4 guys: Moncrief, Lever, Penny Hardaway, & Allen Iverson ALL also played lots of PG – so they were only partially competitors of MJ.

Also:

3 guys: Drexler, McGrady & Pierce ALL also played lots of SF – so they too were only partially competitors of MJ.

Also:

4 guys: Ellis, Petrovic, Miller & Pierce ONLY won ALL-NBA 3rd-Teams during MJ’s 13 full seasons. Thus they were NOT close to being All-Time Greats nor, of course, very-tough competition for MJ.

Also:

5 guys: Petrovic, Bryant, Iverson,McGrady & Pierce each played only 4 seasons or less during MJ’s 13 yrs.

Also:

1 guy: Penny Hardaway only played 5 seasons during MJ’s 13 seasons.

Also:

4 guys: Bryant, Iverson, McGrady & Pierce only won their awards during MJ’s last 2 yrs, by far his worst. (So, being generous, I'm not holding that against MJ; but he certainly can't get any good credit for being dominated by them.)

So, of the 13 guys who played some SG during MJ’s 13 full seasons, & who won: ALL-NBA 1st-Team, ALL-NBA 2nd-Team or ALL-NBA 3rd-Team, HOW MANY WERE GREAT PLAYERS?

NBA GOAT All-Time Top 10?

1 guy: Kobe Bryant (and remember Kobe dominated MJ during MJ’s last & worst 2 seasons)

NBA GOAT All-Time Top 25?

1 (possibly 2) guys: Kobe Bryant, and ? maybe Drexler (I don’t have him nearly this high).

NBA GOAT All-Time Top 50?

3 to 5 guys: Bryant, Drexler, McGrady, Iverson, Miller (I don’t have either AI or Miller nearly this high).

These 5 are EASILY MJ’s toughest competition during his 13 full seasons. What can we say about them:
1) 3 of the five of them: Bryant, Iverson, McGrady weren’t any good until MJ’s last two seasons!
2) 1 of the five of them: Miller was not a really great player.

CLYDLE DREXLER was the ONLY serious competition MJ faced during his 10-11 Great Yrs. ONE GUY!
(And most people, including myself, would not have him in the NBA GOAT All-Time Top 25).

And just how great was Clyde Drexler. Clyde ONLY won:

ALL-NBA 1st-Team: 1 (!);
ALL-NBA 2nd-Team: 2 (!);
ALL-NBA 3rd-Team: 2 (!) (He won one in 95, when MJ played less than 20 games).

According to ALL-NBA Team Selections, this highly-informative (non-) “Stat”,
Clyde Drexler was not very great at all !

MJ Utterly DOMINATED 13 Mostly Relatively-Mediocre “SGs” (during his 10-11 Great years)!

P.S. Don't even ask how many hours all the research and writing this post took! (Yikes, tons!)
btw, I absolutely LOVED MJ during his career; and still do absolutely LOVE MJ. I'm just trying to deal with the facts: research them & try, as best I can, to analyze them correctly & accept what they represent.

P.P.S. I originally posted this post in the Thread for discussing the GOAT #3 candidates. It much more fits here; so I've copied it over to here.

tredigs
06-30-2014, 12:07 AM
Your obsession with All-NBA Teams as the crux of these arguments is off to me Pablo. You afford them no context what so ever.

Yes, Clyde only made a handful of All NBA Teams (would've made 2 or 3 more had they had a 3rd team before 89), but look at his competition at the guard spot: Jordan and Magic - the player you consider GOAT - had 1st team locked up all decade at the guard spots. Then there was Stockton every season (who himself did not even make an All NBA 1st Team until about a decade into his career despite crushing his position at an elite HOF level) along with one guard or another having an incredible season (Price, KJ, Zeke, etc). But, the fact that he did not make these All-NBA Teams at a high level does not discount the fact that he was putting up 25/7/6 on efficiency through his (and Jordan and Magic's) prim and it is what makes him a top 5 shooting guard in history. Had he come in 10 years prior he'd have been taking Tiny's spot on All NBA 1st/2nd Teams.

It was also the era of the best defensive guards, which made what Jordan did to them all the more impressive. You had Dumars, Moncrief, Cooper and Alvin Robertson all battling Jordan, not to mention he had to go against the best group of rim protectors and bruisers in history through the 80's and 90's.

Undermining the level of competition he faced is definitely a losing proposition, the guy went through a gauntlet every season (in an era with more All Time greats than any other) and nearly always came off the court looking like the best player out there.

Pablonovi
06-30-2014, 07:58 AM
Your obsession with All-NBA Teams as the crux of these arguments is off to me Pablo. You afford them no context what so ever.

Yes, Clyde only made a handful of All NBA Teams (would've made 2 or 3 more had they had a 3rd team before 89), but look at his competition at the guard spot: Jordan and Magic - the player you consider GOAT - had 1st team locked up all decade at the guard spots. Then there was Stockton every season (who himself did not even make an All NBA 1st Team until about a decade into his career despite crushing his position at an elite HOF level) along with one guard or another having an incredible season (Price, KJ, Zeke, etc). But, the fact that he did not make these All-NBA Teams at a high level does not discount the fact that he was putting up 25/7/6 on efficiency through his (and Jordan and Magic's) prim and it is what makes him a top 5 shooting guard in history. Had he come in 10 years prior he'd have been taking Tiny's spot on All NBA 1st/2nd Teams.

It was also the era of the best defensive guards, which made what Jordan did to them all the more impressive. You had Dumars, Moncrief, Cooper and Alvin Robertson all battling Jordan, not to mention he had to go against the best group of rim protectors and bruisers in history through the 80's and 90's.

Undermining the level of competition he faced is definitely a losing proposition, the guy went through a gauntlet every season (in an era with more All Time greats than any other) and nearly always came off the court looking like the best player out there.

Only Logical: The Centers Were Better, So They Faced Tougher Individual Competition
Hey tredigs,
I can see for sure why one might have the impression that I overemphasize the All-NBA Selections (though it is FAR from any obsession - I emphasize it heavily because, until now, I haven't seen anybody at all emphasizing it hardly at all. And, imo, it merits a ton of attention. However, I do pay almost as much attention to the All-Defensive Teams (am currently working on that aspect). And to any number of other aspects of the game.

Please also note that heavy reliance on All-NBA Teams MEANS, necessarily, less reliance on any one and/or all stats. (Which TEND to be far more "unrelated" to context!)

btw, I have NEVER claimed/said that Magic is/was the GOAT (only that he was the GOAT #1 TEAM-mate; a BIG distinction - that, for me, lands Magic overall GOAT #2; and puts John Stockton higher on my GOAT list than on most other people's).

I DO have Clyde right around 5th Greatest SG in NBA History (with only: MJ, Kobe, West and DWade ahead of him). (My eyes told me that; and the All-NBA Selections back that up. Below: MJ, Kobe & West, no other SGs got tons of 1st-Team Selections). Clyde was one fine defender; and just "gorgeous" to enjoy watching.

btw, I treat West as a SG because for half of his career, he played with Gail Goodrich; and they both said about that bunch of years that Gail was the PG and Jerry the SG. I agree with them.

At the risk of repeating my main point:
People tend to simultaneously do two (quite contradictory) things:
Correctly rate the All-Time Great Centers COLLECTIVELY higher by a good amount over the other four positions;
but
On this, "position" question; and many, many others, try to make an almost-unique exception of MJ (like some kind of god). (Heck, he QUIT for 4.8 regular seasons; and instead of righteously holding that against his career; people claim that it actually supposedly benefits him, a la: "He would have won more Chips if he had played". I find that kind of thinking simply ridiculous, illogical and "hero-worship" type of thinking.

Similarly, in MJ's best 10 Play-Offs seasons, he "only" made the Finals 6 times; FAILING to even make the Finals 4 other times, losing to weaker teams in the earlier rounds. Yet many PSDers swear that FAILING to even make the Finals those 4 times is supposedly better than to make the Finals and lose there. YIKES! This is MJ=God type thinking; warping rational thought to fit the HYPE that we all were hit so hard with for so long.

I do disagree that the All-NBA Selections lack context. The voters themselves were paid to (supposedly) be keen observers of the game, its trends, teams and players. And, compared to "my eye test"; they have virtually always done an exemplary job.

I loved Drexler (I remember when it was still a question about whether MJ was truly (much) better than him. However, wouldn't you agree that comparing the 10+ Centers that KAJ had to play against during his career TO the 10+ SG's (notice I specifically & intentionally did NOT include PGs - the vote for PGs is separate from the vote for SGs).... that KAJ faced MUCH tougher competition AT HIS POSITION than MJ did?

Just look at everybody's GOAT lists - they are ALL dominated by Centers (KAJ, Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem, Russell, DRob, Moses, etc. etc.). Conversely, the other 4 positions are sparsely represented (PF, SF, PG, SG).

I actually would personally prefer that all 5 positions ranked pretty evenly; but that just is NOT the NBA at all.

About MJ. I absolutely loved his game; taped every Play-Off game I could; and re-watched all of them "endlessly". I just don't ascribe to the near-universal "adoration" of him, vis-a-vis "MJ is GOAT and always will be. I've got KAJ ahead of MJ; and Magic ahead of him too (but just by a smidge).

I strongly disagree, STRONGLY, that MJ's era had more All-Time greats than any other.
I've pretty much got 5 All-Time Greats from each decade (60s, 70s, 80s, 90s and 00s; plus 2-3 so far from the 10's) in my GOAT Top 25-30; essentially "claiming" that, IN TERMS OF THE All-Time GREATS, the past 5.5 decades have been close enough to equal to warrant treating them essentially as equal.

About this, "It was also the era of the best defensive guards, which made what Jordan did to them all the more impressive. You had Dumars, Moncrief, Cooper and Alvin Robertson all battling Jordan, not to mention he had to go against the best group of rim protectors and bruisers in history through the 80's and 90's. "

I don't agree with it. You want to claim that Dumars and Moncrief were better than Jerry West on D? And better than the best Defensive Guards from other decades too? I can't go for that. (I think of Coop as a SF, btw).

Best group of rim protectors and bruisers in history? No way Jose. Better than Wilt (& his Luke) & Russ (& his great TEAM-D's) & Nate the Great & Jerry Lucas, etc??? No way!

People have this idea that MJ's era was the TOUGHEST in NBA history. I saw ALL of the 60s; they were WAY TOUGHER. So bad that Wilt (the TOUGHEST MOFO of All-Time) almost quit after only his first year! (imo, the 60s were decidedly too rough. It detracted/detracts from the beauty of the game.)

IF, we ALL agree that the Centers have definitely dominated the other positions, then that has IMPLICATIONS. Centers were facing tougher competition than all the other positions generally, and in most specific cases, this was the case as well. Therefore, conversely, the players at the other 4 positions were generally facing tough but LESSER competition, and in most specific cases, this was the case as well. This applies to Magic and Stockton, and MJ and Kobe, and Bird and Dr J and TD & Karl Malone (to just give a few major examples).

For example, as far as I know, I'm just about the only PSDer who has TWO SFs in their GOAT Top 15 (Dr J and Bird). I also tend to rate Stockton and K.Malone higher than most other PSDers. Still, on my GOAT list, the Centers absolutely DOMINATE.

Pablonovi
06-30-2014, 08:14 AM
Hey tredigs
and/or
to whom it may concern,

Very Often Unconventional Ideas Are "Worthy"

There's So Many NBA GOAT-related threads (virtual utter-chaos) that we frequently miss each other's (best) posts.

One last thing, if one looks at my (long) post about KAJ's regular season dominance; I go a good deal beyond just the All-NBA Selection tallies. I examine every one of the 7 years that KAJ did NOT get voted 1st-Team or 2nd-Team; analyzing, using standard metrics - to further delve into whether I and others "should" agree with the All-NBA Selectors; and, regardless of that, how much of a gap there was between KAJ and the other top Centers.

Further, in a post just within this past week, I address 10 points of comparison between KAJ and MJ; and a lot of that has little if anything to do with the All-NBA Selections. So, above, instead of repeating all that non All-NBA Selection stuff; I focus instead, PRIMARILY, but not only by a long shot; on those Selections.

P.S. Perhaps you missed that (and other) earlier posts of mine on these GOAT questions? It is not at all hard to do: miss those posts. Afterall, instead of one unified GOAT discussion thread, we have 3+ so far; and eventually, seemingly will have 50! PLUS, we have a mighty number of other threads where the GOAT discussion (whether directly in the OP or not) has taken center stage (no pun intended). For example, there's the:

2014 Finals threads;
Kobe VS TD threads;
Kobe threads (without specifically other GOAT candidates);
LeBron VS everything and everybody and his uncle threads;
and perhaps a dozen more that address the GOAT question and that I may well have posted in.

Seeing as this is one big mess (though I haven't really thought out a well-reasoned possible solution, if there even is one?); people are bound to miss lots of other posters' posts; and so the posts they do see can often see, naturally, one-sided.

This is exponentially magnified WHENEVER a person takes a (formerly) very new and/or unpopular position. Out of the sheer weight of necessity, either they present their case "extra hard"; or the SOP opinion overwhelms the discussion (regardless of whether it is valid/strong enough or not).

I have been taking a number of highly-distinct positions on such NBA matters as:
1) The role of expansion (and contraction) in NBA History as it affect the quality of teams & players & W-L records;

2) The role and "value" of the ABA; and, to a lesser extent (because it both merits less; and, though I've tried to study all I can about it, I know a lot less) about the NBL too;

3) About the comparative "value" of NBA positions (PG, SG, SF, PF, C); including in different periods;

4) A "GOAT"-type discussion about the All-Time NBA/ABA/NBA Legends;

5) and more, for example: Can the NBA game be described as more Offensive- than Defensive- dominated. (I posit a YES - When/if the scoring were, say: 70-60, then I'd call that a much-more Defensive-dominated game. When the Denver Nuggets were averaging 120, I called that a much-more Offensive-dominated game. World-Cup Soccer, with an average score of 2-0 (just guessing, I haven't studied it); would be my DEFINITION of a defensive-dominated sport.)

In most cases, my positions are definitely minority positions (to be resolved either by others being won over by my arguments (and those of others; I make no claim to NBA expertise; OR by we in the minority being won over or "out-voted". In some cases, the discussion had really never been even breached before.

In a lot of these cases, my thinking therefore represents a challenge to the "status-quo" thinking; and people are often, at least initially, uncomfortable with having their long-held and/or strongly-held beliefs challenged. But without such occasional challenges, ideas would never change; and very often they should. No?

P.S. I do NOT deliberately (for any possible agenda) "try" to be different or weird or unique. I just seemed to have been born this way (it used to get me in trouble even in Grammar School, AND ever since); and have either given up on trying to change the "unchangeable" in me; or have just gotten as comfortable as one can get with constantly feeling "out of place" and/or "in some minority or other".

I've posted in a number of other forums; and on a wide range of subject-matters; and pretty much in all of them and right away; I get labeled as "different". I guess I gotta live with that; hopefully most others can too.

Mishmin
06-30-2014, 08:26 AM
I nominate Delonte