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View Full Version : Where do you rank Isiah?



ewing
06-20-2014, 08:44 PM
as an all time PG? As an all time great?

abe_froman
06-20-2014, 08:48 PM
probably 5th as a pg(magic,oscar,fraizer,stockton and count west as a sg) and probably somewhere in the 30's as a player

Tony_Starks
06-20-2014, 08:48 PM
Good question. A lot of people ignore his greatness because he was a big time jerk.

I have him top 5 pg all time, top 20 player all time.

tredigs
06-20-2014, 09:17 PM
probably 5th as a pg(magic,oscar,fraizer,stockton and count west as a sg) and probably somewhere in the 30's as a player

I'd rather have Gary Payton, CP3 and J. Kidd over Zeke too. He was great and had some ridiculous handles + was tough as nails, but IMO those three are just better, more well rounded players.

I'd have Isiah in the top ten, 8th or so. Can't forget Nash either.


Good question. A lot of people ignore his greatness because he was a big time jerk.

I have him top 5 pg all time, top 20 player all time.

Top 20, really? Not sure I'd have him higher than mid 30's off the top of my head.

ohreally
06-20-2014, 09:57 PM
I think rankings of just about anything are worthless. Subjective. Inherently unfair to the older of whatever is being ranked. Swayed by popular opinion.

I just find it interesting that there is no consideration of championships here when they are such a determining factor in rankings of shooting guards and centers.

All that said, Isiah is definitely better, on overall balance than most all the guys listed so far as being his betters. I can sort of understand people wanting to rank Kidd above him, but Isiah could just do much more than Kidd. Nash? CP3? Payton? ...please now...

Tony_Starks
06-20-2014, 10:17 PM
I'd rather have Gary Payton, CP3 and J. Kidd over Zeke too. He was great and had some ridiculous handles + was tough as nails, but IMO those three are just better, more well rounded players.

I'd have Isiah in the top ten, 8th or so. Can't forget Nash either.



Top 20, really? Not sure I'd have him higher than mid 30's off the top of my head.

Yeah he's there for me. Just off the top I have Magic, MJ, KAJ, Wilt, Kobe, Shaq, Timmy, Bird, Russell, Hakeem, Dr J, West, Robertson, Stockton, Malone, Barkley, KG, Drexler, Pippen, Zeek, Miller, Ray Allen, Iverson.....

Those are just the first that come to my mind as greats in random order.

For PGs I go with

Magic
Stockton
Robertson
Nash
Thomas

amos1er
06-20-2014, 10:30 PM
Top 20 all-time arguably, though I have him in my top 25.

amos1er
06-20-2014, 10:31 PM
Yeah he's there for me. Just off the top I have Magic, MJ, KAJ, Wilt, Kobe, Shaq, Timmy, Bird, Russell, Hakeem, Dr J, West, Robertson, Stockton, Malone, Barkley, KG, Drexler, Pippen, Zeek, Miller, Ray Allen, Iverson.....

Those are just the first that come to my mind as greats in random order.

For PGs I go with

Magic
Stockton
Robertson
Nash
Thomas

I agree with everything you said with the exception of Iverson...

Kashmir13579
06-20-2014, 10:47 PM
Top 10

spurs4#5
06-20-2014, 11:17 PM
I think we have to start doing generation top tens instead of all time top ten. There's just no way to judge ones greatness in different eras of basketball. Different rules, different eras..different list

jmaest
06-20-2014, 11:39 PM
I'd rather have Gary Payton, CP3 and J. Kidd over Zeke too. He was great and had some ridiculous handles + was tough as nails, but IMO those three are just better, more well rounded players.

I'd have Isiah in the top ten, 8th or so. Can't forget Nash either.

Isiah was more well rounded than either CP3 or J Kidd or Nash. Sometimes I have to remember that a lot of you guys didn't see basketball before the modern era. Sometimes I wish that a lot of you would remember that too though. Some of the comments made here lack complete respect for players of other generations. This is one of them.

Isiah was an excellent defender, the originator of the crossover, and a clutch scorer. J Kidd was not the offensive player Isiah was and neither Nash nor CP3 were the defensive player Isiah was.

Payton is interesting. I'm probably partial to Payton myself. I've never thought about it but I would say it's close enough where it probably doesn't matter who you put ahead of who.


Top 20, really? Not sure I'd have him higher than mid 30's off the top of my head.

As far as all time PG's go Isiah is top 10. Where he ranks is subjective because he's in the same hat with a bunch of other PG's. Magic stands alone in that conversation. Stockton is probably 2nd--he is on my list. But then after that it gets all jumbled. I'm a huge J Kidd fan. Love him. I'd love to put him 3rd but I know that's my heart, not my head, making that call.

Realistically speaking you would have to take Payton, Isiah, Maravich, Oscar, Frazier, and maybe 2 or 3 others I'm not thinking of and pull their name out of a hat and any order you go with, IMO, would probably be fair.

ESPN has Isiah 3rd. I'm okay with that.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dailydime-GreatestPointGuards

KnickNyKnick
06-20-2014, 11:53 PM
not sure where to rank him. but i did meet Magic Johnson today :D

NYKNYGNYY
06-21-2014, 12:05 AM
Top 7 give or take 2

53 HOWARD
06-21-2014, 12:08 AM
as an all time PG? As an all time great?

I have Zeke second only to magic as the best pg all time and isiah in top 20 all time!
I don't see cp3 Nash Payton Kidd Stockton winning one championship let alone 2 with the pistons teams isiah won with. Just my opinion.
Sometime I feel isiah is under apprieciated because jordan hated him but the reason jordan hated him is cause isiahs teams dominated Jordan's teams for Jordan's first 7 years in the league.

tredigs
06-21-2014, 12:54 AM
Yeah he's there for me. Just off the top I have Magic, MJ, KAJ, Wilt, Kobe, Shaq, Timmy, Bird, Russell, Hakeem, Dr J, West, Robertson, Stockton, Malone, Barkley, KG, Drexler, Pippen, Zeek, Miller, Ray Allen, Iverson.....

Those are just the first that come to my mind as greats in random order.

For PGs I go with

Magic
Stockton
Robertson
Nash
Thomas

Forgot Lebron and Magic (edit: my bad I just cut it off on my screen, you got him), and you're leaving out some serious names. Moses Malone, Elgin Baylor, David Robinson, Bob Pettit, Hondo, Rick Barry, etc. D. Wade and Dirk are better too. Not sure how Ray Allen is that far up for you though?

I've def got Zeke right around Payton or Kidd somewhere in the 30's; Who were both more well rounded and imo better PGs.

Edit: I'm looking at his "Advanced Stats" line on bbref right now and it's super unimpressive. .109 WS/48, 18.1 PER and .516 TS%. Those are not legend #'s you will find on virtually any other player that we're talking about in a top 20 discussion.

abe_froman
06-21-2014, 01:02 AM
I'd rather have Gary Payton, CP3 and J. Kidd over Zeke too. He was great and had some ridiculous handles + was tough as nails, but IMO those three are just better, more well rounded players.

cant put cp3 over thomas without at least some finals appearances,i have stockton slightly over him because the stats gap is so big and if the refs didnt allow mj to cheat for "the shot 2" he might have a ring

Tony_Starks
06-21-2014, 01:08 AM
Forgot Lebron and Magic, and you're leaving out some serious names. Moses Malone, Elgin Baylor, David Robinson, Bob Pettit, Hondo, Rick Barry, etc. D. Wade and Dirk are better too. Not sure how Ray Allen is that far up for you though?

I've def got Zeke right around Payton or Kidd somewhere in the 30's; Who were both more well rounded and imo better PGs.

Edit: I'm looking at his "Advanced Stats" line on bbref right now and it's super unimpressive. .109 WS/48, 18.1 PER and .516 TS%. Those are not legend #'s you will find on virtually any other player that we're talking about in a top 20 discussion.

What makes me catapult him up there is his level of play against legends. I view him as the guy that kept MJ down for years and also gave Magic and Larry the blues.

tredigs
06-21-2014, 01:15 AM
cant put cp3 over thomas without at least some finals appearances,i have stockton slightly over him because the stats gap is so big and stockton was only stopped by dynasty bulls(though i'm ok with anyone who has thomas over john).while i dont have payton or kidd ,i'm ok with those that do(because, like john, they have finals appearances)

Those Finals Pistons teams were absolutely stacked with solid bigs and had some of the best defense of that generation though. Laimbeer + Mahorn ...and John Salley + Dennis Rodman in their mid to late twenties coming off the bench... also, Joe Dumars and his ridiculous guard D on his side.

I mean, Zeke was their best offensive player once Adrian Dantley was gone, but he did not exactly have to pull an '03 Duncan and take the team on his back on both ends here. And he couldn't have. He was a great PG, but not without his faults; super turnover prone and not a very good shooter. Still, I do give him major credit for his grit. He was a warrior and their leader.

Chronz
06-21-2014, 02:00 AM
cant put cp3 over thomas without at least some finals appearances,i have stockton slightly over him because the stats gap is so big and if the refs didnt allow mj to cheat for "the shot 2" he might have a ring

So the refs never helped Stockton get INTO the Finals?

Zeke started making Finals when his teams defense became elite but I understand your reasoning in terms of legacy.

FlashBolt
06-21-2014, 02:30 AM
CP3 is a much better PG than Isiah and he's probably one of the most efficient PG's in NBA history.. If not already. Win or lose, CP3 will end up a top 3 PG IMO. He has a good 5-7 years of elite play and I suspect he will end up with a ring in the near future. I don't see how Isiah was ever better than CP3 other than rings but after that, what did he do better?

Also, Tony didn't mention LeBron in his top 20 but mentions Allen Iverson and Ray Allen.. Not sure if he forgot or is just a bad poster. Not to mention Wade, Dirk, David Robinson, and Moses are some easy four that are more top 20 than Isiah was. He's in the mid to early 30's for me. Tredigs mentioned his WS and wow, that is mindblowing low. I don't think I've seen a "superstar" with such a low WS prime or no prime.

Magic
Stockton
GP
Nash
Isiah
Kidd

I left Robertson and Frazier out just because I think it is too hard to compare that era vs the modern. I think CP3 will definitely bump GP out.

amos1er
06-21-2014, 05:09 AM
CP3 is a much better PG than Isiah and he's probably one of the most efficient PG's in NBA history.. If not already. Win or lose, CP3 will end up a top 3 PG IMO. He has a good 5-7 years of elite play and I suspect he will end up with a ring in the near future. I don't see how Isiah was ever better than CP3 other than rings but after that, what did he do better?

Also, Tony didn't mention LeBron in his top 20 but mentions Allen Iverson and Ray Allen.. Not sure if he forgot or is just a bad poster. Not to mention Wade, Dirk, David Robinson, and Moses are some easy four that are more top 20 than Isiah was. He's in the mid to early 30's for me. Tredigs mentioned his WS and wow, that is mindblowing low. I don't think I've seen a "superstar" with such a low WS prime or no prime.

Magic
Stockton
GP
Nash
Isiah
Kidd

I left Robertson and Frazier out just because I think it is too hard to compare that era vs the modern. I think CP3 will definitely bump GP out.

I would put him over GP and Nash. Dude has two rings and a finals MVP. Was the best player on one of the best teams ever. It's close between him and Payton, but I give priority to the two rings and one finals MVP even though Payton's defense was considerably better.

ewing
06-21-2014, 08:50 AM
you guys don't like Isiah.

ewing
06-21-2014, 08:58 AM
Forgot Lebron and Magic (edit: my bad I just cut it off on my screen, you got him), and you're leaving out some serious names. Moses Malone, Elgin Baylor, David Robinson, Bob Pettit, Hondo, Rick Barry, etc. D. Wade and Dirk are better too. Not sure how Ray Allen is that far up for you though?

I've def got Zeke right around Payton or Kidd somewhere in the 30's; Who were both more well rounded and imo better PGs.

Edit: I'm looking at his "Advanced Stats" line on bbref right now and it's super unimpressive. .109 WS/48, 18.1 PER and .516 TS%. Those are not legend #'s you will find on virtually any other player that we're talking about in a top 20 discussion.


Does the fact that the Bad Boys made the game ugly on purpose skew WS? There was going to be TOs, low FG%s, etc when you were playing the Pistons.

hidalgo
06-21-2014, 09:02 AM
top 5 PGS

Magic Johnson
Oscar Robertson
Isiah Thomas
John Stockton
Tony Parker

Meaze_Gibson
06-21-2014, 09:45 AM
magic johnson
isiah thomas
john stockton
gary payton
jason kidd/cp3

Being the leader of those three finals appearances and a back 2 back championships (during the magic, bird, and jordan years i might add) overrides the statistical edge others have. He always took it to another level during the playoffs without having the revered hall of fame teammates others have had.

MDD
06-21-2014, 09:45 AM
I bet none of you people was old enough to have seen Zeek Play and the era he played in to win 2 championship against greats like Bird , Magic And Jordan . These other PGs your ranking higher than him have not been to the finals or won a championship aside of Magic and Oscar.

ewing
06-21-2014, 09:48 AM
i'm old

DemarDerozan
06-21-2014, 10:52 AM
CP3 is a much better PG than Isiah and he's probably one of the most efficient PG's in NBA history.. If not already. Win or lose, CP3 will end up a top 3 PG IMO. He has a good 5-7 years of elite play and I suspect he will end up with a ring in the near future. I don't see how Isiah was ever better than CP3 other than rings but after that, what did he do better?

Also, Tony didn't mention LeBron in his top 20 but mentions Allen Iverson and Ray Allen.. Not sure if he forgot or is just a bad poster. Not to mention Wade, Dirk, David Robinson, and Moses are some easy four that are more top 20 than Isiah was. He's in the mid to early 30's for me. Tredigs mentioned his WS and wow, that is mindblowing low. I don't think I've seen a "superstar" with such a low WS prime or no prime.

Magic
Stockton
GP
Nash
Isiah
Kidd

I left Robertson and Frazier out just because I think it is too hard to compare that era vs the modern. I think CP3 will definitely bump GP out.

Holy Bosh! Someone forgot to mention your idol and you have to insult them.

You insecure? Just start another BronBron thread about it. It's been about a week since there were five of them going on the NBA forum at once.

And isiah>>>>>>>old broke dwade

Many forget Zeke's career was pretty much over when he was 32. He could have won more titles and padded his stats had it not been for his Achilles.

New school NBA fans have no appreciation for the best and most competitive decade of BBall. 1980-1990.

smith&wesson
06-21-2014, 11:25 AM
top 5 pg.

PurpleLynch
06-21-2014, 12:09 PM
Top 5 pgs of all time/top 25 players of all time.

Hawkeye15
06-21-2014, 12:28 PM
top 7-9 PG all time, top 40 player all time for me.

RocketsWin2013
06-21-2014, 01:02 PM
Below Chris Paul.

Tony_Starks
06-21-2014, 01:51 PM
Zeek played at a time when basketball was truly a mans game. If he played today with the no touching rules he'd be virtually unstoppable.

You couldn't even stop him back then when you could hand check him and knock him to the floor whenever he drove the lane.

DemarDerozan
06-21-2014, 02:13 PM
Below Chris Paul.

If Zeke had these Clippers they would have at least one championship by now.

DemarDerozan
06-21-2014, 02:15 PM
top 5 PGS

Magic Johnson
Oscar Robertson
Isiah Thomas
John Stockton
Tony Parker

This

ewing
06-21-2014, 02:18 PM
i'd really like to know how the stat heads feel about the impact of playing on a team that intentionally made the game ugly impacted Isiah's numbers and if that skews statistical comparison. I will admit i not a state and head and don't even know what win share really is etc. but i am interested

SLY WILLIAMS
06-21-2014, 02:29 PM
If you only judge players by stats many players from the past will not measure up to todays players who dominate the ball more. Detroits championship teams were never about players having high PER numbers. They were about winning games. Isiah has said and done questionable things but he is a all time great PG. Not a top 20 player but a top 5 PG for sure. I'd take Stockton before Isiah but after that I do not know who I would take. Everyone loves Magic because of stats and rings but he is not nearly as high on my list as other people's. I'd definitely take Isiah before guys like Payton and Nash.

Cal827
06-21-2014, 02:35 PM
Below Chris Paul.

Chris Paul is one of the most overrated players I've seen in a while.

Like, how many times is he gonna get away with "He doesn't have enough support"?

He just can't win (at least so far)... He's like the Carmelo of PGs lol

WadeKobe
06-21-2014, 03:18 PM
By the time Paul and Curry retire he will definitely be outside the top10 PG of all time and probably outside top40 players all time.

Chronz
06-21-2014, 10:42 PM
If Zeke had these Clippers they would have at least one championship by now.

How does Zeke turn them into an elite defensive team and why didn't the Pistons win until doing so?

THE MTL
06-21-2014, 10:54 PM
Definitely TOP 5 PG of all time. But I think Chris Paul passes him when its all said and done though.

1. Magic
2. Stockton
3. Robertson
4. Thomas
5. Kidd or Payton (w/CP3 on their heels)

THE MTL
06-21-2014, 11:07 PM
To all those saying Nash and Kidd above Zeke is dumb. Sure we all know and love those guys and their careers were much longer than Zekes; but Zeke was able to lead his team to multiple championships as the lead guy.
And they couldnt touch Zeke during peak prime years where Isiah gave you 21ppg 11-14apg 2.2spg

Kidd won his championship as a role player probi 4th best player on his team and lost in the Finals twice with the Nets when he was the lead guy. Sure he competed with Kobe/Shaq and Duncan. But Zeke dealt with the likes of Jordan's Bulls, Showtime Lakers, and Bird's Celtics. And Zeke is an overall better player than Kidd too. He can pass, defend, and run an offense just like Kidd and had a serious offensive game to go along with it.

And Nash just doesnt have a complete game to even be mentioned as top 5 ever. You must be a two-way player to be put up with greatness such as the Top 5. And he hasnt even made an NBA Finals appearance as the lead guy.

Bruno
06-21-2014, 11:14 PM
I think we have to start doing generation top tens instead of all time top ten. There's just no way to judge ones greatness in different eras of basketball. Different rules, different eras..different list

the only problem with this is that some players bridge generations and have their total contributions split in half between generations, unfairly docking them on both sides of the coin. Shaq is an example.

ManningToTyree
06-21-2014, 11:17 PM
Top 10 PG and top 50 (maybe 40) overall

All-In
06-21-2014, 11:37 PM
This stuff is all subjective....so its impossible to be wrong.....but how is he anything less than top 3? Magic, Big O then Zeke......Not Stockton, Kidd, Glove or cp3 should be higher.......Zeke was the best player on a team that went to 5 straight conference finals....3 nba finals and back-to-back champs....and he did it during the Bird/Magic/MJ era....and who was the big 3 on those Pistons teams? Zeke, Joe Dumars and Vinnie Johnson? Mark Aguirre? Dennis Rodman? Bill Laimbeer?........Those teams were Zeke, Joe Dumars and a bunch of Shane Battier/David West types.......Zeke's career was cut short by injury...thats my big knock....You can give me Magic and Big O but anyone else is a reach

GIANTKNICK
06-22-2014, 01:22 AM
Watch this and rank him. He was a great player. All around talent, intangibles and all.
http://youtu.be/zcHuzAk7zJA

_KB24_
06-22-2014, 02:11 AM
Top 5 pgs of all time/top 25 players of all time.

This.

Toughest SOB I've ever seen take the court. He could take over games out of nowhere.