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View Full Version : lets be real: iverson is top 30



BobbyHillSwag
06-19-2014, 12:01 AM
Player of all time. In my eyes a top 20 but it's arguable

Cano4prez
06-19-2014, 12:02 AM
not even top 50

BobbyHillSwag
06-19-2014, 12:06 AM
If iverson aint top50 then a lot of other players y'all consider top50 aint either

Hotone1401
06-19-2014, 12:10 AM
Iverson's > Wade

bucketss
06-19-2014, 12:50 AM
Iverson's > Wade

so the ring thing only matter when its kobe vs lebron?

abe_froman
06-19-2014, 12:53 AM
lol not even close

bulls_world23
06-19-2014, 01:27 AM
Not even close. Top 50 maybe

bulls_world23
06-19-2014, 01:28 AM
Iverson's > Wade
This def has to be the joke of the day. Thanks for the laugh

abe_froman
06-19-2014, 01:31 AM
Not even close. Top 50 maybe
not even that ,i'd put him somewhere in the 60's-70's off the top of my head

Shammyguy3
06-19-2014, 01:32 AM
Yeah, definitely nowhere near top-30 let alone top-20. Top-50 is also out of the question. I can quite easily name 60+ players that I'd take before reaching Allen's name. ESPECIALLY if we're just talking about peak play, performance wise.

Iverson took just under 28 shots and 10 free throws a game to score 31.4ppg. Say that those 10 free throws are all on field goal attempts Iverson missed, that's 5 possessions right there. Plus the 28 shots. Plus his 4.0 turnovers per game that season. Another four possessions. Meaning, you could quite easily paint a picture saying that Allen Iverson needed 37 possessions to score under 32 points. That is in his highest scoring season.

Now that's not a very great analysis, but that's a very dumbed down version. Iverson's inefficiency leaves him off of any All-Time list. The guy was not a good basketball player.

Here's a quick list off the top of my head
Jordan, Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, Duncan, Lebron, Magic, Kobe, Russell, Bird, Moses, Oscar, Robinson, West, Garnett, Erving, Nowitzki, Malone, Barkley, Wade, Durant, Pippen, Drexler, Baylor, Havlicek, McHale, Stockton, Wilkins, Gervin, Ewing, Walton, Paul, Thomas, Frazier, Payton, Hardaway, Nash, Kidd, Barry, Miller, Allen, Carter, McGrady, Hill, Mourning, Lanier, McAdoo, Pierce, Dumars, Pettit, Kemp, Moncrief, King, Maravich, Dantley, Billups, Parker, Ginobili, Mullins, English, Curry, Williams, I think that's 60.

And there's a bunch of guys that have short careers whose peaks were better as well. Brandon Roy, Derrick Rose just to name two (and that's assuming Rose never plays again).

I was an Iverson fan growing up. But scouting and analysis has changed. Evaluating production on the court has increased exponentially. Iverson in today's game with advanced defenses and the value of efficiency just would not cut it, not for a second.

meloman1592
06-19-2014, 01:40 AM
2nd after Jordan

Raps08-09 Champ
06-19-2014, 01:43 AM
No thanks.

FlashBolt
06-19-2014, 01:53 AM
He's easily top 30.. What are you guys smoking?

Jarvo
06-19-2014, 01:58 AM
Lmaoo at people saying not even Top 30, I'll go as high as Top 15-20!

Shammyguy3
06-19-2014, 02:00 AM
He's really nowhere near it. Iverson was a polarizing player. His ability to get a shot off in traffic, take contact, get into the paint while having a long career was inspiring. But that doesn't mean he was a great player. His efficiency was AWFUL, and unlike other all-timers (Jason Kidd comes to mind) he had nothing else in his game that could make up for it (defense, exceptional playmaking ability, etc)

amos1er
06-19-2014, 02:03 AM
Eh... Probly not on most lists. Could you make a good case for him, or is this just a blanket statement with absolutely nothing other than personal opinion to back it up??? Who should he be ranked above and why...

Jarvo
06-19-2014, 02:03 AM
Yeah, definitely nowhere near top-30 let alone top-20. Top-50 is also out of the question. I can quite easily name 60+ players that I'd take before reaching Allen's name. ESPECIALLY if we're just talking about peak play, performance wise.

Iverson took just under 28 shots and 10 free throws a game to score 31.4ppg. Say that those 10 free throws are all on field goal attempts Iverson missed, that's 5 possessions right there. Plus the 28 shots. Plus his 4.0 turnovers per game that season. Another four possessions. Meaning, you could quite easily paint a picture saying that Allen Iverson needed 37 possessions to score under 32 points. That is in his highest scoring season.

Now that's not a very great analysis, but that's a very dumbed down version. Iverson's inefficiency leaves him off of any All-Time list. The guy was not a good basketball player.

Here's a quick list off the top of my head
Jordan, Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, Duncan, Lebron, Magic, Kobe, Russell, Bird, Moses, Oscar, Robinson, West, Garnett, Erving, Nowitzki, Malone, Barkley, Wade, Durant, Pippen, Drexler, Baylor, Havlicek, McHale, Stockton, Wilkins, Gervin, Ewing, Walton, Paul, Thomas, Frazier, Payton, Hardaway, Nash, Kidd, Barry, Miller, Allen, Carter, McGrady, Hill, Mourning, Lanier, McAdoo, Pierce, Dumars, Pettit, Kemp, Moncrief, King, Maravich, Dantley, Billups, Parker, Ginobili, Mullins, English, Curry, Williams, I think that's 60.

And there's a bunch of guys that have short careers whose peaks were better as well. Brandon Roy, Derrick Rose just to name two (and that's assuming Rose never plays again).

I was an Iverson fan growing up. But scouting and analysis has changed. Evaluating production on the court has increased exponentially. Iverson in today's game with advanced defenses and the value of efficiency just would not cut it, not for a second.

You tripping if all those guys are better than Iverson :laugh: I think you guys read way too much into stats nowadays anway, What that man did on that court was magic!

amos1er
06-19-2014, 02:06 AM
Why not list your top 30 and we can go from there...

Shammyguy3
06-19-2014, 02:06 AM
Lmaoo at people saying not even Top 30, I'll go as high as Top 15-20!

Explain why he's better than the players I listed

amos1er
06-19-2014, 02:07 AM
Lmaoo at people saying not even Top 30, I'll go as high as Top 15-20!

Now that's just ridiculous.

Shammyguy3
06-19-2014, 02:07 AM
You tripping if all those guys are better than Iverson :laugh: I think you guys read way too much into stats nowadays anway, What that man did on that court was magic!

It was fun to watch, but it didn't lead to anything productive. When you take 30 shots to score 30 points, that's not good.

amos1er
06-19-2014, 02:08 AM
You tripping if all those guys are better than Iverson :laugh: I think you guys read way too much into stats nowadays anway, What that man did on that court was magic!

Ugh... I just don't see it.

abe_froman
06-19-2014, 02:12 AM
It was fun to watch, but it didn't lead to anything productive. When you take 30 shots to score 30 points, that's not good.

he comes from the riley freeman school of basketball,i.e. the nba didnt exist before 1998 and the only thing that matters is looking cool

Jarvo
06-19-2014, 02:21 AM
It was fun to watch, but it didn't lead to anything productive. When you take 30 shots to score 30 points, that's not good.

So going to The Finals wasn't nothing? I don't think Tmac, Alonzo, Nash, Vince Carter, Hardaway, Billups, Brandon Roy and others are better than Iverson

Jarvo
06-19-2014, 02:29 AM
Explain why he's better than the players I listed

To me I never been to judge a player off stats or Rings at all, Hell I think Lebron is a better overall player than Kobe which is crazy talk round here. The heart he played with and how he put his team on his back to win is stuff you don't see on stat sheets only on here I see Iverson get talked down upon and it just boggles my mind. He was pretty decent playing defense for his size also.

amos1er
06-19-2014, 02:32 AM
It was fun to watch, but it didn't lead to anything productive. When you take 30 shots to score 30 points, that's not good.

This. Iverson just wasn't efficient enough to be all that impactful. Defensively he was a liability and he just needed the ball too much to be effective. His MVP is one of the examples people always bring up when justifying how inconsistent the award truly is. His only major accomplishment and there is an asterisk next to it. Just too many players who are more worthy to be ranked ahead of him. I would even rank Tony Parker ahead of him.

amos1er
06-19-2014, 02:34 AM
So going to The Finals wasn't nothing? I don't think Tmac, Alonzo, Nash, Vince Carter, Hardaway, Billups, Brandon Roy and others are better than Iverson

Nash, Tmac, and Billups were better... Alonzo, Carter, Brandon Roy, and Hardaway no way. Iverson played with Melo for a few years and couldn't do ****. Then all of the sudden Billups steps in and they are contenders... No coincidence in my eyes. I really don't know how you are questioning Tmac and Nash. Lol.

amos1er
06-19-2014, 02:36 AM
To me I never been to judge a player off stats or Rings at all, Hell I think Lebron is a better overall player than Kobe which is crazy talk round here. The heart he played with and how he put his team on his back to win is stuff you don't see on stat sheets only on here I see Iverson get talked down upon and it just boggles my mind. He was pretty decent playing defense for his size also.

:speechless:

Jarvo
06-19-2014, 02:44 AM
Nash, Tmac, and Billups were better... Alonzo, Carter, Brandon Roy, and Hardaway no way. Iverson played with Melo for a few years and couldn't do ****. Then all of the sudden Billups steps in and they are contenders... No coincidence in my eyes. I really don't know how you are questioning Tmac and Nash. Lol.

T mac wasnt a winner :shrug: good player but The Playoffs wasn't nice to him, Nash ehhhhhh

Jarvo
06-19-2014, 02:45 AM
:speechless:

I said decent lol not great

BobbyHillSwag
06-19-2014, 02:47 AM
Lol someone said billups was better than iverson lmao. Billups has absolutely no argument over iverson

abe_froman
06-19-2014, 02:54 AM
Lol someone said billups was better than iverson lmao. Billups has absolutely no argument over iverson
how about leading his team to beating the lakers dynasty,something ai couldnt do ...then get into the stuff about defense,efficiency ,decision making,ect. and he def gets at least a debate

KingPosey
06-19-2014, 03:42 AM
No he's not. Not even close to being in the elite category. He could score and was exciting but I'm so tired of hearing how great he was when he just had so many flaws as a player and as a teammate.

KingPosey
06-19-2014, 03:48 AM
To me I never been to judge a player off stats or Rings at all, Hell I think Lebron is a better overall player than Kobe which is crazy talk round here. The heart he played with and how he put his team on his back to win is stuff you don't see on stat sheets only on here I see Iverson get talked down upon and it just boggles my mind. He was pretty decent playing defense for his size also.
No he wasn't, he was an awful defender.

jerellh528
06-19-2014, 03:50 AM
Nah, I don't see it, I would have a hard time putting him ahead of any on these 35 guys. I could see at best like 30 or 31 IMO. And this list is without putting too much thought. There might be more that I missed

Jordan
Kareem
Kobe
Magic
Wilt
Duncan
Shaq
Bird
Hakeem
Oscar
Russell
Kg
Dirk
Karl Malone
Lebron
Barkley
Stockton
Dr.j
Kidd
Isiah Thomas
Baylor
West
Ewing
Wade
David Robinson
Scottie pippen
Pistol Pete
Bob Cousy
Moses Malone
Gary Payton
Durant
Cp3
Frazier
Havlicek
Mchale

CityofTreez
06-19-2014, 03:54 AM
He should be Top 30 for having Reebok put his face on the bottom of his own zip-up shoes.
Who rocked em?

amos1er
06-19-2014, 04:18 AM
Lol someone said billups was better than iverson lmao. Billups has absolutely no argument over iverson

What are you talking about... Of course Billups is higher... He has a finals MVP, and he brought Melo and the Nuggets to the WCF when Iverson got them swept in the first round. His impact and achievements were much greater than that of Iverson. Not to mention the was the better defender by far and the more efficient player offensively. I would choose Billups over Iverson as my starting pg any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Thats just me though.

amos1er
06-19-2014, 04:20 AM
Practice... We talkin bout practice.

amos1er
06-19-2014, 04:24 AM
T mac wasnt a winner :shrug: good player but The Playoffs wasn't nice to him, Nash ehhhhhh

Tmac had a much better peak... He just never had the teammates to compete. Iverson wasn't a winner either. Nash was one of the greatest at his position to play the game and had much better longevity. Nash was also one of the top five shooters in NBA history and assisters. To me, Nash had a much greater impact and likely would have won a chip if not for a lame as suspension of Amare in game 5 of the semi's in 2007.

hidalgo
06-19-2014, 07:12 AM
i don't think he's even top 50. maybe not even top 75.

just SGs alone i could name 25-30 i'd prefer over AI, & i have nothing against him(just didn't like his dribble dribble dribble 1 on 5 iso ball hog style)

MJ, Wade, Drexler, Jerry West, John Havlicek, George Gervin, McGrady, Reggie Miller, Dumars, Pete Maravich, Ray Allen, Earl the peal Monroe, Dennis Johnson, Sam Jones, Sidney Moncreif, Mitch Richmond, Sprewell, Allan Houston, Manu Ginobili, Richard Hamilton, Vince Catrer, James Harden, Joe Johnson, Eddie Jones, Dan Majerle, Hersey Hawkins, Reggie Lewis,

i will give Iverson credit for 2001, mvps & played really well in the finals. averaged 11 points more than KB. the east was really weak that year but the run they made & the finals he had against LA deserves some credit(they did beat LA once & gave them some close games, they were the 2nd best after LA because their defense). LA stream rolled the west, beat the spurs by an avg of 22 ppg. vaporized them(uhh is that a record for biggest playoff beatdown? ok no the 1996 72 win Bulls beat the Heat by 23 per game.maybe it's a record in the conference finals? it's gotta be for the modern era CF). Philly showed the were #2 in the league & gave LA a decent challenge. outside of 2001 though, he just didn't make much impact. just dribble dribble dribble shoot shoot drive drive drive me me me i i i, not effective outside of 2001

JasonJohnHorn
06-19-2014, 08:21 AM
You know that saying where people claim that anybody in the league can average 30 points a game if you give them enough shots?


Allen Iverson is the proof of that.

The dude lead the league in scoring while shooting 38% from the floor. What is impressive about that? I am baffled by the fact that he won an MVP award.

Top thirty? I can literally think of 100 players I would rather build a team around.

hidalgo
06-19-2014, 09:19 AM
there definitely 100 players i'd take over AI

but he was a really skilled, quick as lightning little SG (faster the westbrook imo, more moves too. westbrook more explosive with dunks & incredibly quick too). westbrook reminds me the most of AI, but his defense is much better than AI's) he just didn't play team basketball the right way. his mindset was 1 on 1 street ball. low basketball IQ, ton of talent

ManRam
06-19-2014, 09:25 AM
FYI, we'll be doing another PSD 50 Greatest of All Time starting up in a few days...

So we'll settle this debate once and for all ;)

ManningToTyree
06-19-2014, 09:33 AM
I think a lot of people are being harder on him then he deserves. That said he doesn't sniff the top 30

YoungOne
06-19-2014, 09:53 AM
how do guys here always come up with these awful thread titles?

xxplayerxx23
06-19-2014, 10:14 AM
You know that saying where people claim that anybody in the league can average 30 points a game if you give them enough shots?


Allen Iverson is the proof of that.

The dude lead the league in scoring while shooting 38% from the floor. What is impressive about that? I am baffled by the fact that he won an MVP award.

Top thirty? I can literally think of 100 players I would rather build a team around.

You need to stop that claim. It is false, not anybody in the league can put in 30 a game that's insane. It's absurd to think anybody can put in 30.And no AI isn't top 30.

ewing
06-19-2014, 10:20 AM
Lets be real. No he isn't. AI fans are a funny bread. They seem to think that if AI was capable of something that player X isn't AI was definitely better then player X. That isn't true. Its like me saying Kevin Willis was a better player then Bron b/c he had a jump hook.

ewing
06-19-2014, 10:22 AM
Lol someone said billups was better than iverson lmao. Billups has absolutely no argument over iverson


Do the Pistons win a title with AI at the point instead?

Tony_Starks
06-19-2014, 11:33 AM
Top 20 for me. Easy.....

Jarvo
06-19-2014, 11:35 AM
Billups had a well rounded team who played defense, And AI was never around that til maybe when he went to Nuggets.

But I damn sure don't think Billups is better than Iverson or someone can take 100 players before AI, I think people make these threads just to bash him and break down his stats like he wasnt worth a damn which is silly. And then you have guys in here saying Brandon Roy, CP3, Curry and a bunch of other newer cats smh.

ewing
06-19-2014, 11:38 AM
Billups had a well rounded team who played defense, And AI was never around that til maybe when he went to Nuggets.

But I damn sure don't Billups is better than Iverson or someone can take 100 before AI, I think people make these threads just to bash him and break down his stats like he wasnt worth a damn


Do you think Piston's win a title, almost 2, with AI instead of Mr Big Shot?

Jarvo
06-19-2014, 11:42 AM
Do you think Piston's win a title, almost 2, with AI instead of Mr Big Shot?

With that team and how they played defense hell yeah!

BobbyHillSwag
06-19-2014, 11:43 AM
Lamp nothing but so haters on here. Btw he won that scoring title shooting.398 if he had another decent scorer he wouldn't have to had worry about his fg% being so low

Tony_Starks
06-19-2014, 11:44 AM
People tend to forget that Iverson singlehandedly took the worst team in modern Finals history to the big show. Also singlehandedly beat a Lakers team that was otherwise invincible and gave them their only loss of the playoffs...

ewing
06-19-2014, 11:45 AM
With that team and how they played defense hell yeah!

I don't think they have that defense anymore with AI and I don't think they win a chip.

ewing
06-19-2014, 11:48 AM
People tend to forget that Iverson singlehandedly took the worst team in modern Finals history to the big show. Also singlehandedly beat a Lakers team that was otherwise invincible and gave them their only loss of the playoffs...


Maybe you are the only one to remembers it that way b/c that's not the way it happened

ManRam
06-19-2014, 11:51 AM
It's amazing how polarizing the guy is. One one hand, you have JJH with his absurd claim that anyone could do what Iverson did if given that many shots. Then you have guys who do think he's top 20-30 ever.

Iverson was great in his peak. Flawed? Sure. But he was still great. He was more than just a scorer too. He was a plus rebounder for his position. He was a very competent defender. He was a solid passer when he needed to be. Yes, he was quite inefficient for most of his career...but it more or less worked out, and he rarely ever played with any other top flight offensive talent. He was all they had on that end for a chunk of his career, and he helped get those teams to overachieve somewhat regularly.


I don't know if he'd land in my top-50 or not. Maybe we'll find out soon. But I think most people get too carried away either one way or the other here. And we've seen plenty of that already in this thread. As always, the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.

Tony_Starks
06-19-2014, 11:57 AM
[/B]


Maybe you are the only one to remembers it that way b/c that's not the way it happened

Please enlighten me sir. I could've sworn he played with the likes of Aaron McKie, Eric Snow, Tyrone Hill, Mutumbo, George Lynch.....etc, and he was the first second and third scoring option...

bulls_world23
06-19-2014, 12:02 PM
Top 20 for me. Easy.....
This is a joke. I would love to see your top 20 list please

Tony_Starks
06-19-2014, 12:07 PM
This is a joke. I would love to see your top 20 list please

No you wouldn't. It starts with Magic Johnson. I'm pretty sure you'd just stop reading after that. Lol

bulls_world23
06-19-2014, 12:09 PM
You lost me after Magic Johnson. :laugh:

KingPosey
06-19-2014, 12:14 PM
People tend to forget that Iverson singlehandedly took the worst team in modern Finals history to the big show. Also singlehandedly beat a Lakers team that was otherwise invincible and gave them their only loss of the playoffs...

Ya and he did it in a god awful Eastern Conference.

Tony_Starks
06-19-2014, 12:22 PM
Ya and he did it in a god awful Eastern Conference.

True but he also got a win out of the Lakers who just finished sweeping the whole west. Including the Spurs.

That's pretty impressive IMO...

Chronz
06-19-2014, 12:39 PM
Please enlighten me sir. I could've sworn he played with the likes of Aaron McKie, Eric Snow, Tyrone Hill, Mutumbo, George Lynch.....etc, and he was the first second and third scoring option...

You mean, the DPOY, the 6th man of the year along with the COY and a plethora of players who could impact the game without taking away the main thing Iverson loved, the ball.

Didn't they win a game with him shooting like 3-27 or something? Yes he was the main scoring option, it doesn't mean we ignore the driving force behind their relative success, it was their defensive effort.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
06-19-2014, 12:40 PM
not in practice

Jeffy25
06-19-2014, 12:43 PM
absolutely not, he's not even top 50

A selfish chucker who wouldn't accept being a second option later in his career to extend it.


Iverson's > Wade
I thought you cared about rings....now they don't matter?

Tony_Starks
06-19-2014, 12:52 PM
You mean, the DPOY, the 6th man of the year along with the COY and a plethora of players who could impact the game without taking away the main thing Iverson loved, the ball.

Didn't they win a game with him shooting like 3-27 or something? Yes he was the main scoring option, it doesn't mean we ignore the driving force behind their relative success, it was their defensive effort.

I believe AI was toward the top of the league in steals as well. You act is if they just told him hey just shoot whenever you want and don't worry about anything else.

It's also not the easiest thing in the world to lead the league in scoring when everyone knows you're going to shoot all night every night, even tho psd loves to perpetuate that anybody can do it. In particular when you're the smallest dude on the floor. AI was a beast!

TheIlladelph16
06-19-2014, 12:53 PM
Well I've now seen multiple people say Allen Iverson isn't even top 75 player of all-time. This only reinforces how collectively stupid the NBA forum is. I can understand him not being Top 30, but he is absolutely a Top 50 player of all-time.

Literally, someone in here named Allen ****ing Houston and Latrell "Can't feed his family" Spreewell as better SGs. Please relearn the sport of basketball because your evaluation skills are complete ****.

Jeffy25
06-19-2014, 12:53 PM
You mean, the DPOY, the 6th man of the year along with the COY and a plethora of players who could impact the game without taking away the main thing Iverson loved, the ball.

Didn't they win a game with him shooting like 3-27 or something? Yes he was the main scoring option, it doesn't mean we ignore the driving force behind their relative success, it was their defensive effort.
2 for 18 in this win
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200003020WAS.html

5 for 28 in this win
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200503270LAL.html

kobe4thewinbang
06-19-2014, 12:54 PM
Player of all time. In my eyes a top 20 but it's arguableNo rings, only one finals appearance, 1-dimensional player, bad attitude.

Definitely not Top 30.

Jeffy25
06-19-2014, 12:59 PM
Well I've now seen multiple people say Allen Iverson isn't even top 75 player of all-time. This only reinforces how collectively stupid the NBA forum is. I can understand him not being Top 30, but he is absolutely a Top 50 player of all-time.

Literally, someone in here named Allen ****ing Houston and Latrell "Can't feed his family" Spreewell as better SGs. Please relearn the sport of basketball because your evaluation skills are complete ****.

Well he is 76th in all time Wins Shares.

I'm not saying that means he is 75th or something.

But he shot at such a low rate, and just chucked so much, it's hard to give him soo much value.

ManRam
06-19-2014, 01:01 PM
Please enlighten me sir. I could've sworn he played with the likes of Aaron McKie, Eric Snow, Tyrone Hill, Mutumbo, George Lynch.....etc, and he was the first second and third scoring option...

That team's biggest strength was their defense, not Iverson. Iverson was hugely important, but the defense is what made that team so great. And those guys were all very good defenders.

ewing
06-19-2014, 01:03 PM
Please enlighten me sir. I could've sworn he played with the likes of Aaron McKie, Eric Snow, Tyrone Hill, Mutumbo, George Lynch.....etc, and he was the first second and third scoring option...


OK, you just named 5 top flight defensive players one of whom happens to be a sure fire HOFer.

ewing
06-19-2014, 01:06 PM
I believe AI was toward the top of the league in steals as well. You act is if they just told him hey just shoot whenever you want and don't worry about anything else.

It's also not the easiest thing in the world to lead the league in scoring when everyone knows you're going to shoot all night every night, even tho psd loves to perpetuate that anybody can do it. In particular when you're the smallest dude on the floor. AI was a beast!


first post you made that makes sense. He still isn't top 20 or 50 all time and didn't do it by himself

Hawkeye15
06-19-2014, 01:11 PM
top 60-70 for me

Hawkeye15
06-19-2014, 01:13 PM
I believe AI was toward the top of the league in steals as well. You act is if they just told him hey just shoot whenever you want and don't worry about anything else.

It's also not the easiest thing in the world to lead the league in scoring when everyone knows you're going to shoot all night every night, even tho psd loves to perpetuate that anybody can do it. In particular when you're the smallest dude on the floor. AI was a beast!

AI was atop the steals standings because he spent every second in passing lanes trying to get steals, knowing he had an iron curtain behind him to cover up his mistakes, as well as great perimeter defenders in Snow/McKie

Tony_Starks
06-19-2014, 01:14 PM
Well I've now seen multiple people say Allen Iverson isn't even top 75 player of all-time. This only reinforces how collectively stupid the NBA forum is. I can understand him not being Top 30, but he is absolutely a Top 50 player of all-time.

Literally, someone in here named Allen ****ing Houston and Latrell "Can't feed his family" Spreewell as better SGs. Please relearn the sport of basketball because your evaluation skills are complete ****.


Stupid is a strong word but yeah I'm baffled how lost people are these days. We are now officially in the efficiency stats define your greatness era. If you weren't efficient then you weren't great, that's where we are at.

Auseranami
06-19-2014, 01:24 PM
Iverson never really had a good number two option until iguodala got there, but he was incredibly raw until iverson left. When A.I. Led the sixers to the finals, the second best player on that team was mutombo or aaron mckie...who else was going to score for them? Raja bell? Tyrone hill? Eric snow? 4 scoring titles is hard to do for anyone, let alone a 6 foot 190 lb guard. Don't forget he also has two or three steal titles (for the people saying he was a defensive liability). The only time he had a solid number two option was in Denver with melo. Hole on the nuggets, he shot 45% (second highest of his career when he plays 50+ games). He's sixth all-time in career scoring average, and second only to Jordan in playoff career ppg. I think all the people in here saying he's not even top 50 just straight up hate iverson.

Chronz
06-19-2014, 01:36 PM
I believe AI was toward the top of the league in steals as well. You act is if they just told him hey just shoot whenever you want and don't worry about anything else.

It's also not the easiest thing in the world to lead the league in scoring when everyone knows you're going to shoot all night every night, even tho psd loves to perpetuate that anybody can do it. In particular when you're the smallest dude on the floor. AI was a beast!
Your memory does not disappoint, AI was atop the steals leaders. What you forget is that he was pretty regularly at the top, yet his teams defense was never this successful, anyone who saw that team could tell you it had more to do with the defensive talent around him and not his incessant gambling that was at its best precisely because of the defenders besides him. I dont "act", I report the facts as I recall them. And the facts are that AI couldn't even guard his own position, to the point where having a tall PG who could initiate the offense AND defend the opposing teams SG was a prerequisite for any AI led team.

AI being small is precisely why he wasn't a beast, I know people want to give extra credit out for all that pound for pound nonsense, but at the end of the day, its still a weakness in his talent.

Chronz
06-19-2014, 01:38 PM
2 for 18 in this win
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200003020WAS.html

5 for 28 in this win
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200503270LAL.html

I meant in the playoffs.

It was against the Bucks IIRC, his team shut down the leagues best offense so he could afford a disastrous performance.

I have AI in the 45-60 range tho so this thread isn't without merit

Jeffy25
06-19-2014, 01:44 PM
I meant in the playoffs.

It was against the Bucks IIRC, his team shut down the leagues best offense so he could afford a disastrous performance.

I have AI in the 45-60 range tho so this thread isn't without merit

5 for 27

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200105300PHI.html

also had a 7 for 26 in a playoff win, and a 8 for 27 in a playoff win


43 times has a player shot 30% or below in a playoff game where they took at least 20 shots and his team won.


Kobe did it 4 times, Iverson did it 3 times, nobody else did it more than twice.


This Paul Pierce shooting is the only one worse than AI's Bucks game

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200205210NJN.html

Chronz
06-19-2014, 01:47 PM
Iverson never really had a good number two option until iguodala got there, but he was incredibly raw until iverson left. When A.I. Led the sixers to the finals, the second best player on that team was mutombo or aaron mckie...who else was going to score for them? Raja bell? Tyrone hill? Eric snow? 4 scoring titles is hard to do for anyone, let alone a 6 foot 190 lb guard. Don't forget he also has two or three steal titles (for the people saying he was a defensive liability). The only time he had a solid number two option was in Denver with melo. Hole on the nuggets, he shot 45% (second highest of his career when he plays 50+ games). He's sixth all-time in career scoring average, and second only to Jordan in playoff career ppg. I think all the people in here saying he's not even top 50 just straight up hate iverson.

Im sorry but I stopped reading when you actually questioned who's better between Mckie or Mutombo. It should be 100% obvious but of course, offense, or should I say scoring, is all AI fans really pay attention to.

BobbyHillSwag
06-19-2014, 01:54 PM
Iverson da best f the rest:clap:

Jamiecballer
06-19-2014, 01:55 PM
Player of all time. In my eyes a top 20 but it's arguable
i'm too lazy to recap all of the reasons that i disagree but as this thread has already made it 6 pages i'm sure others have done so for me.

iverson represents everything that is wrong and selfish with the game today.

Tony_Starks
06-19-2014, 01:56 PM
One of the realest quotes I ever heard from AI was along the lines of "I pass the ball to Snow, he passes to Mutumbo, he passes to McKie, to Hill, then back to me......at that point what do you want me to do?".....

Tony_Starks
06-19-2014, 01:58 PM
i'm too lazy to recap all of the reasons that i disagree but as this thread has already made it 6 pages i'm sure others have done so for me.

iverson represents everything that is wrong and selfish with the game today.

You hate AI, hate on Kobe, love Lebron. We get it.

Jamiecballer
06-19-2014, 02:00 PM
Iverson's > Wade

i'm starting to get a very clear picture of what you consider to be good basketball. first kobe > lebron, then iverson > wade

ewing
06-19-2014, 02:04 PM
One of the realest quotes I ever heard from AI was along the lines of "I pass the ball to Snow, he passes to Mutumbo, he passes to McKie, to Hill, then back to me......at that point what do you want me to do?".....


you don't get extra points for the being the realest

Jarvo
06-19-2014, 02:40 PM
It's amazing how polarizing the guy is. One one hand, you have JJH with his absurd claim that anyone could do what Iverson did if given that many shots. Then you have guys who do think he's top 20-30 ever.

Iverson was great in his peak. Flawed? Sure. But he was still great. He was more than just a scorer too. He was a plus rebounder for his position. He was a very competent defender. He was a solid passer when he needed to be. Yes, he was quite inefficient for most of his career...but it more or less worked out, and he rarely ever played with any other top flight offensive talent. He was all they had on that end for a chunk of his career, and he helped get those teams to overachieve somewhat regularly.


I don't know if he'd land in my top-50 or not. Maybe we'll find out soon. But I think most people get too carried away either one way or the other here. And we've seen plenty of that already in this thread. As always, the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.


This! But I think he is Top 20-25, I did say as high as 15 but thats a maybe. The man did lead the NBA in steals, Idk what these guys are smoking to rank him so low and have Billups ranked higher as him.

NoahH
06-19-2014, 02:43 PM
No way. Great scorer. No rings, polarizing individual with a bad attitude at times. Top 50.

Jamiecballer
06-19-2014, 02:44 PM
You hate AI, hate on Kobe, love Lebron. We get it.

should be pretty clear what kinds of players i like and dislike huh

Justin Credible
06-19-2014, 02:52 PM
Im not going to say AI is a top 30 player, but he's definitely not as bad as most here are making him out to be. I dont care who u are, or how good u are, if you're 6ft and being guarded by other 2 guards that have 4 to 7 inches on you every night, coupled with the fact that no one else on your team can create their own shot, you're just not going to be efficient, and even someone with below average intelligence should be able to comprehend something as simple as that.

Giving the predicament he was in, he was fantastic and I dont think any other player wouldve been able to do a better job.

Top 50 for sure, and a top 20 guard of all time.

Jasper6
06-19-2014, 02:53 PM
Iverson is a LOCK for top 25-30 all-time, anyone who has ever played the game knows this. LeBron James called him the pound for pound GOAT! Are you kidding me? Is this even a question? People forget how great he was because of his "practice" and his rough ending to his career.

The guy got blackballed....he is top 30 hands down.

Great read: http://www.balldontstop.com/blackballed-the-media-and-nba-forced-allen-iverson-into-retirement/

smith&wesson
06-19-2014, 02:53 PM
regardless if you liked his style of play or not, It would be very difficult to debate that iverson is not top 30 all time. I think he is easily top 30. He is among the best shooting gaurds to ever play the game.

you dont have to respect or like him to give him his props. I dont like duncan, but i have no problem admitting he is the best pf and among the best big men to every play the game.

Jarvo
06-19-2014, 03:05 PM
Not to sound like a Ahole, But I rather take the word of the players who he played with/against than you guys because how you guys are breaking him down is just bad lol

Jarvo
06-19-2014, 03:06 PM
Iverson is a LOCK for top 25-30 all-time, anyone who has ever played the game knows this. LeBron James called him the pound for pound GOAT! Are you kidding me? Is this even a question? People forget how great he was because of his "practice" and his rough ending to his career.

The guy got blackballed....he is top 30 hands down.

Great read: http://www.balldontstop.com/blackballed-the-media-and-nba-forced-allen-iverson-into-retirement/


Idk these cats on heavy drugs lol I just had a convo about this at work just from reading comments and how some say they'll pick about anyone over Iverson and had a good laugh.

Kaner
06-19-2014, 03:11 PM
regardless if you liked his style of play or not, It would be very difficult to debate that iverson is not top 30 all time. I think he is easily top 30. He is among the best shooting gaurds to ever play the game.

you dont have to respect or like him to give him his props. I dont like duncan, but i have no problem admitting he is the best pf and among the best big men to every play the game.

Really which 3 of these 33 guys is he easily better than?

Jordan, Russell, Wilt, Oscar, West, Baylor, Dr. J, Kareem, Moses, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, Dirk, Wade, Pippen, LeBron, Durant, Stockton, Nash, Gervin, Payton, Kobe, Magic, Bird, Malone, Barkley, Drexler, Walton, Reed, Admiral, Ewing, Isiah.

I'd say the opposite all of these guys are easily better than him.

ewing
06-19-2014, 03:16 PM
lets just compromise and say he is a top 30 at being real or something. Thanks for the info on him being black balled though. I cant believe that NBA teams would not want and aging, declining, anti-authoritarian, player that has off the courts issues, is a rumored alcoholic, and will be a media lighting rod. Can we bring in Tebow in too?

ewing
06-19-2014, 03:20 PM
Really which 3 of these 33 guys is he easily better than?

Jordan, Russell, Wilt, Oscar, West, Baylor, Dr. J, Kareem, Moses, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, Dirk, Wade, Pippen, LeBron, Durant, Stockton, Nash, Gervin, Payton, Kobe, Magic, Bird, Malone, Barkley, Drexler, Walton, Reed, Admiral, Ewing, Isiah.

I'd say the opposite all of these guys are easily better than him.

He definitely had a better NBA career then Walton. I think he also had a better career then Dexler, I never saw Gervin play but i'll put AI over him too. I also think your list is missing people

Shammyguy3
06-19-2014, 03:25 PM
Im not going to say AI is a top 30 player, but he's definitely not as bad as most here are making him out to be. I dont care who u are, or how good u are, if you're 6ft and being guarded by other 2 guards that have 4 to 7 inches on you every night, coupled with the fact that no one else on your team can create their own shot, you're just not going to be efficient, and even someone with below average intelligence should be able to comprehend something as simple as that.

Giving the predicament he was in, he was fantastic and I dont think any other player wouldve been able to do a better job.

Top 50 for sure, and a top 20 guard of all time.

Acknowledging what AI was able to do at his height and size is one thing, but CREDITING him for doing that even though it's a major weakness is completely different.


regardless if you liked his style of play or not, It would be very difficult to debate that iverson is not top 30 all time. I think he is easily top 30. He is among the best shooting gaurds to ever play the game.

you dont have to respect or like him to give him his props. I dont like duncan, but i have no problem admitting he is the best pf and among the best big men to every play the game.

Very easy to debate that Iverson is out of the top-30. Some can argue top-50 based on career, but if we're talking peak performance then Iverson is nowhere near that list.


He definitely had a better NBA career then Walton. I think he also had a better career then Dexler, I never saw Gervin play but i'll put AI over him too. I also think your list is missing people though.

I focus on peak years more than careers, which is why Walton is quite easily ahead of Iverson. And why I'd take a few injury-plagued players that had short careers over him as well.

Tony_Starks
06-19-2014, 03:38 PM
should be pretty clear what kinds of players i like and dislike huh

Yep. Hate inefficient players. Players that fit your description of selfish. REALLY dislike volume shooters (except for MJ). Really admire good fantasy stat guys.

Nothing wrong with that, I just don't agree with you sir.

Tony_Starks
06-19-2014, 03:41 PM
Do you ever notice with other great players we actually give legit basketball criticisms about their game? With Kobe, AI, Lebron.... grown men start acting really feminine like "I just don't like him!"

Kaner
06-19-2014, 03:47 PM
Do you ever notice with other great players we actually give legit basketball criticisms about their game? With Kobe, AI, Lebron.... grown men start acting really feminine like "I just don't like him!"

What? Iverson criticisms have always been very legitimate basketball concerns. He was a cancerous teammate, a ball hog, one of if not the most inefficient scorer of the modern era, and turnover prone. If those aren't legit basketball criticims then idk what is.

ewing
06-19-2014, 03:48 PM
Do you ever notice with other great players we actually give legit basketball criticisms about their game? With Kobe, AI, Lebron.... grown men start acting really feminine like "I just don't like him!"


i thought being a one dimensional defensive liability was a legit criticism.

Shammyguy3
06-19-2014, 03:48 PM
Do you ever notice with other great players we actually give legit basketball criticisms about their game? With Kobe, AI, Lebron.... grown men start acting really feminine like "I just don't like him!"

I'm not sure that you can't say critiquing Iverson for his inability to play in a system, demanding an insurmountable amount of shots, and not delivering on those possessions above a Jannero Pargo efficiency level isn't a valid/legit criticism.

Kaner
06-19-2014, 03:48 PM
He definitely had a better NBA career then Walton. I think he also had a better career then Dexler, I never saw Gervin play but i'll put AI over him too. I also think your list is missing people

It was a peak list but if we're going by careers then theirs a a whole bunch other guys that easily had better careers.

Jamiecballer
06-19-2014, 03:51 PM
Yep. Hate inefficient players. Players that fit your description of selfish. REALLY dislike volume shooters (except for MJ). Really admire good fantasy stat guys.

Nothing wrong with that, I just don't agree with you sir.
sounds like a pretty fair description. you nailed it without being an *******, a rather rare and appreciated quality. :cheers:

xRODMANx
06-19-2014, 04:46 PM
Lol at people saying he isn't even top 75 or 50. Yet you have people saying lebron is already top 5 or 10 all time. Pshh hatred really does blind people. I can understand if he just misses some peoples list of top 30, but he's absolutely top 35-40 all time.

Jeffy25
06-19-2014, 04:48 PM
Lol at people saying he isn't even top 75 or 50. Yet you have people saying lebron is already top 5 or 10 all time. Pshh hatred really does blind people. I can understand if he just misses some peoples list of top 30, but he's absolutely top 35-40 all time.

How about.....how is he top 35-40?

Jeffy25
06-19-2014, 04:53 PM
Im not going to say AI is a top 30 player, but he's definitely not as bad as most here are making him out to be. I dont care who u are, or how good u are, if you're 6ft and being guarded by other 2 guards that have 4 to 7 inches on you every night, coupled with the fact that no one else on your team can create their own shot, you're just not going to be efficient, and even someone with below average intelligence should be able to comprehend something as simple as that.

Giving the predicament he was in, he was fantastic and I dont think any other player wouldve been able to do a better job.

Top 50 for sure, and a top 20 guard of all time.

Being smaller than other good players doesn't give him any more value.

It's one thing to recognize what he did with his size, but being undersized is a negative, no matter what.

If he was bigger, maybe he would have produced better, who knows. But what we are discussing is what he contributed on the court. And it wasn't as a top 30 player of all time, or for me, top 50

BobbyHillSwag
06-19-2014, 05:03 PM
How about.....how is he top 35-40?

How is he not?

abe_froman
06-19-2014, 05:08 PM
He definitely had a better NBA career then Walton. I think he also had a better career then Dexler, I never saw Gervin play but i'll put AI over him too. I also think your list is missing people

how so?
drexler-similarly a top level scorer(but more efficient),but better at defense ,rebounding,passing ;lead his team to two finals in a tougher conference and won a ring as the number 2

and for gervin? better than ai at ai's supposed strength(scoring)

he has no argument peak or career over either

Jeffy25
06-19-2014, 05:11 PM
How is he not?

You are saying he is?

He's 76th all time in win shares, clearly one of the worst shooters the game has ever seen (104th worst all time to be specific).

Turned the ball over a ton (132nd most all time in turnovers per possession).

187th on ws/48


And plenty of posters have listed well over 30 more legit and clearly better players than AI.


What is he top 30 in other than scoring?


And even that. He is 22nd in career points, yet he took the 13th most shots in NBA history.


You say he's top 35-40.

And I'm asking how

FreeAgentZero
06-19-2014, 07:54 PM
Iverson would take 26 shots a game and average 29 PPG. There are probably 50 players in the league that could do that. Only made it to the Finals once when the East was atrocious and got beat in 5 in the Finals. Iverson was a gun who never won anything meaningful. Very talented and gave us highlights, but that's about it. Great player, but top 30? I don't think so.

JordansBulls
06-19-2014, 10:40 PM
He has an argument

KingPosey
06-21-2014, 09:35 AM
I believe AI was toward the top of the league in steals as well. You act is if they just told him hey just shoot whenever you want and don't worry about anything else.

It's also not the easiest thing in the world to lead the league in scoring when everyone knows you're going to shoot all night every night, even tho psd loves to perpetuate that anybody can do it. In particular when you're the smallest dude on the floor. AI was a beast!

He was a league leader in steals, but it's hollow
Because all he did was gamble the passing lanes to get a couple easy buckets, while leaving his defense completely ****ed the other 3/4 of the time when he didn't get the steal.

He was a terrible defender. There is no way to dress it up

AIverson
06-21-2014, 07:40 PM
The internet basketball community doesn't like Iverson. I don't know why people bother making threads about him on forums, just let it be. He's considered an all-time great by players, coaches, fans, ect and that should be enough. You're not going to win the internet over with this guy.

rocketfuel
06-22-2014, 09:53 PM
A lot of members are letting their personal feelings about Iverson's persona get in the way of being objective about Iverson the player. If you had actually watched him extensively, you would know that he was an explosive player. There's a reason he was getting those shots. Coaches don't just hand a player that many shots if they can't score. One of the fastest guys on the court, he was incredibly hard to guard. Players and analysts have already discussed Iverson on many roundtables on the sports networks and they certainly have a much higher opinion of his game. The guy was hard to stop. People make too much of his "practice" comment. He was just being defensive to a reporter's question. The guy played all out during games, unlike some guys that seem to wilt in the bright lights. And his teammates liked him.... some of the players you think are great teammates are actually not. And I don't think it's fair to trump out his waning years when he obviously lost a step. He would have been better off with coaches like Pop or Phil Jackson who could use his talents to the best advantage. You can poke holes at many of the greats games: Magic, Dirk, etc....but what they did well, was what set them apart. Iverson was an explosive player and wreaked havoc when he got into the paint.

XpLiCiTT
07-01-2014, 11:15 AM
This thread is comical. People on here really must just hate Iverson, and hate fuels everyones arguments. Get some knowledge.

SLY WILLIAMS
07-05-2014, 07:35 PM
I liked AI but he is not in the top 50. He might sneak in to the top 60.

XpLiCiTT
07-05-2014, 08:07 PM
I can 110% agree he's not top 30, but not top 50? Thats absolutely hilarious. And some of the lists people in this thread have tried putting together are even funnier. I've seen names like Joe Johnson, Latrell Sprewell, Billups, just to name a few…people can't be serious :laugh::laugh:

SLY WILLIAMS
07-05-2014, 09:26 PM
MJ
Bird
Wilt
Shaq
Lebron
Kobe
Duncan
Magic
Hakeem
Drob
Ewing
Pettit
Kareem
Malone
Barkley
Drexler
Wade
Dominique
Durant
Dirk
Dr J
Barry
Oscar
West
Baylor
Moses
Stockton
McAdoo
Bernard King
Dantley
Gasol
Carmelo
Gervin
Issel
Lucas
Daniels
Mcguiness
Mchale
Pippen
English
Bellamy
Frazier
Payton
Reed
Miller
Isiah
Allen
Havlicek
Richmond

I do not know how many that is but I'd start with those guys and then there are some others as well.

XpLiCiTT
07-05-2014, 09:37 PM
If I counted that correctly you named 49, how convenient haha ;) :laugh2:

Carmelo and Gasol are no way in hell better than Iverson. Theres a bunch of others in there that are very debatable. It's definitely an interesting/tough debate. I don't agree with the OP of top 30, but I think top 50 is very fair. And honestly, I think he literally falls somewhere around 50.

SLY WILLIAMS
07-06-2014, 01:00 PM
If I counted that correctly you named 49, how convenient haha ;) :laugh2:

Carmelo and Gasol are no way in hell better than Iverson. Theres a bunch of others in there that are very debatable. It's definitely an interesting/tough debate. I don't agree with the OP of top 30, but I think top 50 is very fair. And honestly, I think he literally falls somewhere around 50.

LOL 49 leaves a spot for AI but I just posted names without counting.

I do not see AI as better than Carmelo or Gasol and I'm not a fan of Melo as a person.

Melo is bigger, stronger, scores as much, shoots a better %, scores inside and outside, gets more rebounds.

Gasol scores, rebounds, shoots over 50%, blocks shots, played a large role in winning 2 rings.

Iverson would have a honors advantage going against guards while Gasol went against Duncan/KG/and Dirk but hard for me to say AI was a better player while shooting such a low percentage.

If you say that you think AI is #50 is that really that much different than me saying he would be somewhere from 51-60?

XpLiCiTT
07-06-2014, 01:34 PM
LOL 49 leaves a spot for AI but I just posted names without counting.

I do not see AI as better than Carmelo or Gasol and I'm not a fan of Melo as a person.

Melo is bigger, stronger, scores as much, shoots a better %, scores inside and outside, gets more rebounds.

Gasol scores, rebounds, shoots over 50%, blocks shots, played a large role in winning 2 rings.

Iverson would have a honors advantage going against guards while Gasol went against Duncan/KG/and Dirk but hard for me to say AI was a better player while shooting such a low percentage.

If you say that you think AI is #50 is that really that much different than me saying he would be somewhere from 51-60?

Shooting a low percentage and being a gunner is basically the only thing people have against Iverson on this site. No one wants to give him credit for being like 5'11 and 160 lbs. His toughness can be matched by none. Melo has accomplished nothing in comparison to Iverson, and I have never heard anyone ever say Gasol in the same breath as him. Let's just stick with your original list and leave that 50 spot for Iverson, deal? Lmao

SLY WILLIAMS
07-06-2014, 03:01 PM
Shooting a low percentage and being a gunner is basically the only thing people have against Iverson on this site. No one wants to give him credit for being like 5'11 and 160 lbs. His toughness can be matched by none. Melo has accomplished nothing in comparison to Iverson, and I have never heard anyone ever say Gasol in the same breath as him. Let's just stick with your original list and leave that 50 spot for Iverson, deal? Lmao

I give AI credit for being small and tough. I like small guys. Look at my avatar. He is one of the smallest guys in the league. With that said this is not a pound for pound list. Its the best basketball players of all time. When you miss so many shots it is held against you in sports. Reggie Jackson and Bobby Bonds were both great homerun hitters but their strikeouts are held against them when judging them overall against other baseball players. If a guy takes 50 shots to score 50 points did that player have a great game?

AI was a great player. At this point we are just debating whether he is #50 or somewhere in the #51-#60 range. I would be proud of anywhere from #50 to #60. Lots of great players still left that we did not name so AI has nothing to be ashamed of at that level.

Dr Positivity
07-09-2014, 10:04 PM
To be honest we will probably never know whether Iverson is either a top 30 player of all time or out of the top 60. Evaluating his career is too confusing. The Answer to this question will be lost in time forever. His career is too confusing considering how the Billy King's roster + Larry Brown effect may have down-pressured his efficiency. What if Iverson had been playing for Nellie or George Karl instead? No way his TS is that low. But perhaps he never makes the Finals without as good a defensive team. On top of that there's everything going on off the court.

My feeling is he's a top 30 talent and a non top 50 career.

bagwell368
07-30-2014, 09:02 PM
Shooting a low percentage and being a gunner is basically the only thing people have against Iverson on this site. No one wants to give him credit for being like 5'11 and 160 lbs.

Why does that matter? He can produce or not.


His toughness can be matched by none.

But his selfishness blows away his toughness by a factor of 10x.

I have Iverson around #115, if I was fully counting his coach killing, negative selfish personality I might cut him down to #200. Toxic turd.

bagwell368
07-30-2014, 09:05 PM
How is he not?

Shooting efficiency
Defensive liability
lack of passing, in fact lack of many traits that good team players have
Coach killer
walked out on his contract to Turkey

It's clear that if he omitted his 5 worst FG attempts per game (no not just the ones that missed, but the ones that were ill advised) he'd have been more effective a player and a teammate. Why couldn't he learn?

bagwell368
07-30-2014, 09:08 PM
Stupid is a strong word but yeah I'm baffled how lost people are these days. We are now officially in the efficiency stats define your greatness era. If you weren't efficient then you weren't great, that's where we are at.

What's wrong with that? A guy that's near all time #1 in having the ball - and also very poor in scoring % when compared with most other "top" offensive players. You seek to have all 29.0 PPG scorers viewed and judged the same way? How quaint.

bagwell368
07-30-2014, 09:14 PM
I can 110% agree he's not top 30, but not top 50? Thats absolutely hilarious. And some of the lists people in this thread have tried putting together are even funnier. I've seen names like Joe Johnson, Latrell Sprewell, Billups, just to name a few…people can't be serious :laugh::laugh:

Billups: he won a ring, and led his team and won the Series MVP doing it. Hard to say Billups was better, but he fits a lot better on almost any team than AI does.

XpLiCiTT
07-30-2014, 10:04 PM
I have Iverson around #115, if I was fully counting his coach killing, negative selfish personality I might cut him down to #200. Toxic turd.

No point to waste time debating this with you if you truly believe that. I'd LOVE to see your list of 115-200 better players.

But I know you can't seriously believe that.

bagwell368
08-01-2014, 09:27 PM
No point to waste time debating this with you if you truly believe that. I'd LOVE to see your list of 115-200 better players.

But I know you can't seriously believe that.

I include personal toxicity - AI was one of the 10 most divisive toxic NBA players in history, he's should get dinged for it, and he does by me.

NJBASEBALL22
08-13-2014, 11:57 PM
It's amazing how polarizing the guy is. One one hand, you have JJH with his absurd claim that anyone could do what Iverson did if given that many shots. Then you have guys who do think he's top 20-30 ever.

Iverson was great in his peak. Flawed? Sure. But he was still great. He was more than just a scorer too. He was a plus rebounder for his position. He was a very competent defender. He was a solid passer when he needed to be. Yes, he was quite inefficient for most of his career...but it more or less worked out, and he rarely ever played with any other top flight offensive talent. He was all they had on that end for a chunk of his career, and he helped get those teams to overachieve somewhat regularly.


I don't know if he'd land in my top-50 or not. Maybe we'll find out soon. But I think most people get too carried away either one way or the other here. And we've seen plenty of that already in this thread. As always, the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.

Truth

ShawnKemp
08-17-2014, 06:39 PM
I've got him right around 50.

bagwell368
08-23-2014, 09:08 PM
No point to waste time debating this with you if you truly believe that. I'd LOVE to see your list of 115-200 better players.

But I know you can't seriously believe that.

Statistically speaking he probably falls between #90-110, but his selfish, divisive, addictive personality, difficult to fit into a team POS personality drops him a great deal (I wouldn't have him on any team I was putting together - even if the only option was a below average player that worked hard and fit in with the rest of the team). He was spectacular perhaps, but not someone you can live with - in particular if you actually want to win and maintain team harmony doing it.