PDA

View Full Version : Kobe and Duncan. 5 rings each. Who had the better career?



blahblahyoutoo
06-17-2014, 09:00 PM
http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=espn:11096807

As usual, you get dumber everytime after hearing SAS speak.

goingfor28
06-17-2014, 09:01 PM
SAS is obnoxious

FOXHOUND
06-17-2014, 09:16 PM
Didn't this just go on for 124 pages?

JEDean89
06-17-2014, 10:43 PM
SAS job isn't to provide insightful analysis, it's simply to create maximum ratings, think bill oreilly. the guy is a moron and i don't think any of his pregame predictions were right this postseason but people watch him, so he has staying power. it's a shame.

Chrisclover
06-17-2014, 11:02 PM
Kobe because he has way more fans. People love his killer instinct.
Duncan is just too boring to watch. He barely has facial expressions.

Jeffy25
06-17-2014, 11:09 PM
SAS job isn't to provide insightful analysis, it's simply to create maximum ratings, think bill oreilly. the guy is a moron and i don't think any of his pregame predictions were right this postseason but people watch him, so he has staying power. it's a shame.

This.

He is a shock jock for jocks

PowerHouse
06-17-2014, 11:42 PM
At this point its a dead heat. Both careers are still going so we may have to re-visit this later but I will say there is something to be said for Duncan's teams being in contention for a title every year for so many years in a row. But then again there is something to be said for Kobe's ability to win multiple titles with two completely different supporting staffs.

Teeboy1487
06-18-2014, 12:04 AM
Right now I have to give a slight edge to Duncan. If you would have asked me 2 years ago, I would have said Kobe.

hidalgo
06-18-2014, 12:08 AM
it's definitely Duncan. they've been legit contenders every year dince he got there in 1997-98. won a ring in 1999 with a completely different team. 15 years apart from ring 1 to ring 5. 2 mvps(kb 1), 3 finals mvps(kb 2), best player on his team all 5 titles (kb 2). Timmy wins this argument. Duncan will probably get his 6th ring next year

Kashmir13579
06-18-2014, 12:13 AM
Duncan

flea
06-18-2014, 12:14 AM
Kobe because he has way more fans. People love his killer instinct.
Duncan is just too boring to watch. He barely has facial expressions.

Maybe he doesn't do the goofball underbites or the teeth grinding, but this is the best facial expression of any NBA player of all time (http://media.giphy.com/media/UiblKvHbSmw3S/giphy.gif). If you disagree then let's fight.

FOXHOUND
06-18-2014, 12:31 AM
I say Kobe for his longevity, although I put Duncan right after Kobe.

Not by games played or seasons played, but by sustained impact throughout their careers. Duncan hasn't averaged 20 PPG since the 2006-07 season, 7 straight seasons now below 20. He hasn't averaged 10 REB since the 2009-10 season. He's averaged 30 MPG only once in the last 4 seasons, and it was 30.1 in 2012-13.

Now I understand why this has happened, but it has still happened and it was needed to keep him effective throughout the season. But even then, look at his playoff career. He hasn't averaged 20 PPG since the 2007-08 postseason. In the 6 postseasons since he's averaged just 17.3 PPG in 34.2 MPG.

Now some people will say this is because he got older. I agree, to an extent. In 2006-07, his last 20 PPG season, he was 30-years old. By 2009-10, at age 33, he dropped down to 17.9 PPG and 31.3 MPG. I understand that this was a plan to not only preserve him for those seasons but for seasons to come, but it was also clearly needed. They were also only able to do that because of the great supporting cast, Parker emerging into an elite PG who is underrated and Manu doing his thing off the bench, and of course Pop being Pop.

Kobe, just two years ago, at age 34, in season 17 averaged 27.3 PPG, 6.0 AST and 5.8 REB in a whopping 38.6 MPG. Despite the same number of seasons (well, Kobe has 6 games in season 18 lol), having played 9 more games and starting from season 1 Duncan has played 2,000 less minutes in the regular season than Kobe, a value of an 82 game season at 24.4 MPG. Their playoff career is much more balanced. Kobe has averaged 41.4 MPG in the playoffs since becoming a starter in the 1999-00 season (39.3 overall) to Duncan's 38.0.

Kobe has had to do a lot more for his team in the last 7 seasons than Duncan has. He hasn't had the same luxury of the Spurs support from the top down since 2003-04, although I guess you can say that helps balance out Kobe's early years when he was fortunate. But it's not like Duncan wasn't fortunate with Robinson either, although not as much.

Next let's look at the performance for Duncan in his last 4 Finals appearances.

2014 - 15.4 PPG, 10.0 REB, 2.0 AST, 0.4 STL, 0.8 BLK, .569 FG, .679 FT, 2.4 TO, 33.1 MPG
2013 - 18.9 PPG, 12.1 REB, 1.4 AST, 0.9 STL, 1.4 BLK, .490 FG, .821 FT, 2.2 TO, 36.3 MPG
2007 - 18.3 PPG, 11.5 REB, 3.8 AST, 1.3 STL, 2.3 BLK, .446 FG, .625 FT, 2.7 TO, 37.3 MPG
2005 - 20.6 PPG, 14.1 REB, 2.1 AST, 0.4 STL, 2.1 BLK, .419 FG, .667 FT, 2.4 TO, 40.7 MPG

Looking at that, you're just talking about completely different roles at that point, completely different expectations on what kind of production is needed for their team to be successful. In that way it's incredibly hard to compare them. Duncan's role has been shrinking throughout the years, although he's still been a huge impact guy. The past two Finals he has played well, but he has also favored from facing a team with no center to speak of. Kobe's role not only has not shrunk but he remained an elite of the elite player until his Achilles gave out.

Both are all time greats, I just feel like their roles and expectations have been completely different in their careers. I mean if Kobe spent the last 7 seasons dropping to the high teens in scoring to maintain efficiency and to preserve energy to excel at the other aspects of the game it seems like he would get killed for it for "getting old". Duncan on the other hand is praised for "stepping back", even though he was just 30-years old which is by no means the end of the road. Idk, double standards for two players who have had completely different paths, although both ultimately have gotten up near the top of the totem pole.

FOXHOUND
06-18-2014, 12:32 AM
Maybe he doesn't do the goofball underbites or the teeth grinding, but this is the best facial expression of any NBA player of all time (http://media.giphy.com/media/UiblKvHbSmw3S/giphy.gif). If you disagree then let's fight.

:clap::clap::clap:

Timmy is great.

jerellh528
06-18-2014, 01:10 AM
Kobe because he is the heart, soul, and main producer of the lakers for a generation. Duncan was mostly an equal part of a 3 headed spurs monster for the majority of his career.

WadeKobe
06-18-2014, 02:37 AM
Kobe because he is the heart, soul, and main producer of the lakers for a generation. Duncan was mostly an equal part of a 3 headed spurs monster for the majority of his career.

It never ends with you guys.

Hawkeye15
06-18-2014, 02:42 AM
Duncan is higher on my all time list, so I chose him, seeing as their chips/accolades and everything else are similar.

NYKalltheway
06-18-2014, 08:03 AM
It has to be Duncan.

beyourself
06-18-2014, 08:58 AM
Kobe because he is the heart, soul, and main producer of the lakers for a generation. Duncan was mostly an equal part of a 3 headed spurs monster for the majority of his career.

Holy shittttt. The ignorance. My God, the Ingnorance. An equal part??? Tim Duncan lead in 2003 the worst team to a ring since Hakeem and possibly in the last 30 years.

You need to seriously reconsider what you just said.

WadeKobe
06-18-2014, 09:44 AM
Duncan wins this across the board. Whether it is team success or individual statistics, Duncan wins both. Simply put, he has separated himself as the greater of the two no matter wha criteria you use to judge players by.

MonroeFAN
06-18-2014, 10:00 AM
How is SAS a moron? Anyone making money like that is not a moron. I don't agree with most of what he has to say, but he's certainly not a dummy.

And this is quite easily Duncan for me. Kobe couldn't even make the playoffs on his own.

AIRMAR72
06-18-2014, 10:27 AM
Kobe because he has way more fans. People love his killer instinct.
Duncan is just too boring to watch. He barely has facial expressions.please explain konbe killer instinct.. WHAT ball hoggin bonehead play fake leader or I wanna be like mike, look SON Kobe is a fake the media built this hype about his killer instinct

jmaest
06-18-2014, 10:30 AM
Kobe's first threepeat was "Shaq's" team. It's why Kobe wanted it torn apart and rebuilt around his own skillset. As much as people want to, they cannot change history.

One can argue that Kobe was "part of the supporting cast" for those three runs. Shaq lead the team in FGA attempts and it was the triangle offense. It clearly flowed through him. Plus Shaq is a Dominant all-time player. He's top 2 or 3 all-time Dominant players for sure behind Wilt & possibly Michael depending on the argument.

Neither Kobe nor Duncan are dominant. Both are excellent. All-time greats. Kobe scores a lot, but he can't score at will which is what dominance really is. And Duncan, for all his greatness, has never come out of his own humility to actually be dominant.

Duncan does more things on the court and he does them better than Kobe. He was a shut down defender. He can score from the inside, outside, face up, or from the post with greater efficiency than Kobe. He's a remarkably unselfish passer as well.

BUT...the question is "who had the better career?". Well let's see...Kobe is higher on the all-time scoring list. Has been given more individual accolades--some undeserved but by virtue of his style of play he was in the mix and was afforded them. He got to play with Shaq--which is a positive not a negative. He went from "side-kick" essentially to "superstar". Yes he literally copied ALL of Jordan's moves and did everything he could to imitate him but he did that with great success. Kobe has had more endorsements and certainly a much greater media buzz. Plus, I bet Kobe has made a lot more $$.

Duncan is arguably the better all-time player but it's hard to argue that Kobe hasn't had the better career.

ManRam
06-18-2014, 10:35 AM
One can argue that Kobe was "part of the supporting cast" for those three runs. Shaq lead the team in FGA attempts and it was the triangle offense. It clearly flowed through him. Plus Shaq is a Dominant all-time player. He's top 2 or 3 all-time Dominant players for sure behind Wilt & possibly Michael depending on the argument.


Not sure I can quite get on board with that. There were plenty of nights during those 2nd and 3rd championships where Kobe was every bit as important as Shaq, if not more. Yes, Shaq was the best player on those teams. No, Kobe wasn't a "supporting cast member". I honestly think people have got a tad bit too carried away with the Kobe-second-fiddle-to-Shaq thing. Kobe was hugely important, and even calling him a sidekick might be doing a tad bit of injustice to him. He wasn't riding on Shaq's coattails much at all.


I did vote Duncan here. I think he's got a slight edge now. Maybe it's being a prisoner of the moment, but at the same time what he has done the last two years is amazingly impressive. It's not something you can ignore at the same time either.

But I don't think the 80% margin reflects how close it should be. It should be a tad bit closer.

jmaest
06-18-2014, 10:36 AM
please explain konbe killer instinct.. WHAT ball hoggin bonehead play fake leader or I wanna be like mike, look SON Kobe is a fake the media built this hype about his killer instinct

Not true. One thing Kobe has is 'balls'. I agree that the term "killer instinct" is overused with Kobe. What Kobe has is a desire to go out and shoot irrespective of the odds against him. Over his career we've seen him force plenty of really bad shots. We've also seen him nail a few tough game winners. It's that instinct to compete, to keep shooting that they're referring to.

I think that's a very good thing to have, personally.

Wade n Fade
06-18-2014, 10:38 AM
Easy, Duncan. Duncan won 5 rings in 15 years. His team is the model of consistency. The Big Fundamental also never publicly demanded a trade, didn't take exorbitant money for his age, he never had a team draft in the lottery, and never threw a coach under a bus. Kome has done all the diva stuff and more. He was responsible for the Shaq break up, threw coaches and teammates under multiple buses, demanded a trade (clearly people ignore his mistakes and focus on others since the Great Kome is flawless), had a major run in with the law, he's selfish on and off the court, his arrogance never knows any bounds, and quite frankly shouldn't be in the conversation w/ Duncan. Both are different character guys. Just because Kome won 5 rings, people are like "oh, he's the closest to Jordan that there ever will be." Magic Johnson is the greatest Laker of all time, not Kome.

blahblahyoutoo
06-18-2014, 10:41 AM
How is SAS a moron? Anyone making money like that is not a moron. I don't agree with most of what he has to say, but he's certainly not a dummy.

And this is quite easily Duncan for me. Kobe couldn't even make the playoffs on his own.

Lol @ correlating money and intelligence.

jmaest
06-18-2014, 10:43 AM
Not sure I can quite get on board with that. There were plenty of nights during those 2nd and 3rd championships where Kobe was every bit as important as Shaq, if not more. Yes, Shaq was the best player on those teams. No, Kobe wasn't a "supporting cast member". I honestly think people have got a tad bit too carried away with the Kobe-second-fiddle-to-Shaq thing. Kobe was hugely important, and even calling him a sidekick might be doing a tad bit of injustice to him. He wasn't riding on Shaq's coattails much at all.

I don't want to keep rehashing this but I disagree. Kobe scored. That's it. Shaq scored more AND did more on the court than Kobe did. The team was very much built around Shaq. The triangle offense is/was built around a Center. When you run an offense like that around a player like Shaq great things will happen.

I'm not in any way suggesting Kobe wasn't important. Nor am I suggesting Kobe was replaceable or anything like that. BUT I am pointing out that the team was very much Shaq's team. To say otherwise is disingenuous. Someone called Kobe the heart/soul of the Lakers for all these years and that's not true. Kobe has had significant issues with leadership and getting along with other players over his career and a "heart/soul" of a team doesn't have those problems.

A lot of what Kobe is/has done is consistently overstated here and it doesn't jive with the actual history.

ManRam
06-18-2014, 10:45 AM
The Big Fundamental also never publicly demanded a trade, didn't take exorbitant money for his age, he never had a team draft in the lottery, and never threw a coach under a bus. Kome has done all the diva stuff and more.

I for the life of me will never understand why that matters. We're not ranking their personalities and character...we're ranking them as basketball players. All I'm concerned about, and I think all we should be concerned about, is their play and success on the court.

If I'm starting a franchise I'm taking Tim over Kobe, perhaps due to those reasons. But that's not the question. The question is: who had the better career? I couldn't care less about this stuff. I care about basketball.

BALLER R
06-18-2014, 10:46 AM
Both of them had a great career

ink
06-18-2014, 10:47 AM
Easy, Duncan. Duncan won 5 rings in 15 years. His team is the model of consistency. The Big Fundamental also never publicly demanded a trade, didn't take exorbitant money for his age, he never had a team draft in the lottery, and never threw a coach under a bus. Kome has done all the diva stuff and more. He was responsible for the Shaq break up, threw coaches and teammates under multiple buses, demanded a trade (clearly people ignore his mistakes and focus on others since the Great Kome is flawless), had a major run in with the law, he's selfish on and off the court, his arrogance never knows any bounds, and quite frankly shouldn't be in the conversation w/ Duncan. Both are different character guys. Just because Kome won 5 rings, people are like "oh, he's the closest to Jordan that there ever will be." Magic Johnson is the greatest Laker of all time, not Kome.

Agree with all of that. I have a hard time understanding why people willfully ignore the mess he's made of his career. Yes, I know he's done some amazing things on the court and that's all that gets talked about, but here we're comparing one of the finest teammates in pro sport, and one of the most loyal and successful, with someone who has only had a few years of maturity as a person in his entire career. We are talking about career right? Well, career includes character and Duncan is light years ahead and has been since he was drafted.

Wade n Fade
06-18-2014, 10:50 AM
I for the life of me will never understand why that matters. We're not ranking their personalities and character...we're ranking them as basketball players. All I'm concerned about, and I think all we should be concerned about, is their play and success on the court.

If I'm starting a franchise I'm taking Tim over Kobe, perhaps due to those reasons. But that's not the question. The question is: who had the better career? I couldn't care less about this stuff. I care about basketball.

Okay, well I am a person that cares about athletes off the court as professionals. As long as they don't act stupid in public or commit crimes it's fine, but Kome had his rape allegations. Now, to his antics w/ teammates and coaches, it hurts when you build a team. Chemistry is unquantifiable, but you can understand that not many stars want to play w/ Kome now. He selflessly took $48 mill instead of taking his market value and competing for a championship. That chemistry translated to on the court play where people could not give max effort or trust Kome because of his attitude. Duncan helped people on the court. Heck, Khawai Leonard and Tiaggo Splitter benefitted the most from Duncan's mentoring abilities. Kome hasn't mentored jack.

ManRam
06-18-2014, 10:54 AM
Okay, well I am a person that cares about athletes off the court as professionals. As long as they don't act stupid in public or commit crimes it's fine, but Kome had his rape allegations. Now, to his antics w/ teammates and coaches, it hurts when you build a team. Chemistry is unquantifiable, but you can understand that not many stars want to play w/ Kome now. He selflessly took $48 mill instead of taking his market value and competing for a championship. That chemistry translated to on the court play where people could not give max effort or trust Kome because of his attitude. Duncan helped people on the court. Heck, Khawai Leonard and Tiaggo Splitter benefitted the most from Duncan's mentoring abilities. Kome hasn't mentored jack.

Kobe's rape allegations don't make him any less of a basketball player than he is. That's my point.

Yes, Kobe has an abrasive personality. But he had the career he had regardless of it, and that's what we're being asked to compare. And let's not act like Kobe ruined everyone and everything around him. Plenty of players thrived playing next to him.

If we're ranking the two based on how good of role models they are, then Tim ***** on Kobe 100 times out of 100. But we're not. We're ranking their careers...

ink
06-18-2014, 10:59 AM
I for the life of me will never understand why that matters. We're not ranking their personalities and character...we're ranking them as basketball players. All I'm concerned about, and I think all we should be concerned about, is their play and success on the court.

If I'm starting a franchise I'm taking Tim over Kobe, perhaps due to those reasons. But that's not the question. The question is: who had the better career? I couldn't care less about this stuff. I care about basketball.

5 rings couldn't have been achieved more differently. These two players are polar opposites of each other in every possible way. Career includes the character a leader brings or does not bring during the time of his career. They're not robots ManRam, they're people who organizations invest millions in and build around. Character is absolutely relevant to the discussion.

Here's hoping the present and future generations of "superstars" look carefully at Duncan and the Spurs to see how championships are built from the ground up, where no one ignores fundamentals like character.

ink
06-18-2014, 11:01 AM
Kobe's rape allegations don't make him any less of a basketball player than he is. That's my point.

Yes, Kobe has an abrasive personality. But he had the career he had regardless of it, and that's what we're being asked to compare. And let's not act like Kobe ruined everyone and everything around him. Plenty of players thrived playing next to him.

If we're ranking the two based on how good of role models they are, then Tim ***** on Kobe 100 times out of 100. But we're not. We're ranking their careers...

Character is in the equation for a leader.

jmaest
06-18-2014, 11:11 AM
5 rings couldn't have been achieved more differently. These two players are polar opposites of each other in every possible way. Career includes the character a leader brings or does not bring during the time of his career. They're not robots ManRam, they're people who organizations invest millions in and build around. Character is absolutely relevant to the discussion.

Here's hoping the present and future generations of "superstars" look carefully at Duncan and the Spurs to see how championships are built from the ground up, where no one ignores fundamentals like character.

I agree with this ink BUT you really can't have it both ways. If what he's done on the court is only "one thing" then Leadership/character is also only "one thing".

The crux of this comparison comes from how you define "better". As I pointed Kobe has had more endorsements, more individual achievements, and made more $$. That can be defined as "better" and by that definition, Kobe wins.

To your point Kobe has also had more issues both on and off the court and that is most definitely a stain. If "better" is defined in that way then Duncan wins.

If however "better" is defined as a combination of the two then I have to give the nod to Kobe--although it's very close. Duncan has done more, he's been a better leader, a better teammate, a better player, etc. But a career is an individual thing IMO.

This is a very interesting topic because it shines a lot on what's really good about both players and what's bad about both players and Duncan really does come out looking fantastic no matter who you pick...

Wade n Fade
06-18-2014, 11:12 AM
Kobe's rape allegations don't make him any less of a basketball player than he is. That's my point.

Yes, Kobe has an abrasive personality. But he had the career he had regardless of it, and that's what we're being asked to compare. And let's not act like Kobe ruined everyone and everything around him. Plenty of players thrived playing next to him.

If we're ranking the two based on how good of role models they are, then Tim ***** on Kobe 100 times out of 100. But we're not. We're ranking their careers...

Actually, it could have landed Kome in jail. He settled w/ the lady and bought Vanessa a huge rock to make the problem go away. It shows two things, one, the lady was either in an elaborate extortion scheme, or two, she had legit allegations. If there was DNA evidence, Kome was guilty and settled it away. As Ink says, leadership is key. Taking a risk in a situation shows a disregard for his position w/ the Lakers. Calling a ref a "fa**ot" in a game is not really a leadership move either. These types of actions on and off the court impact a team more than you think. If he cut his career shorter w/ his off the court actions, it does make him less of a basketball player since he wouldn't have 5 rings.

ink
06-18-2014, 11:13 AM
I agree with this ink BUT you really can't have it both ways. If what he's done on the court is only "one thing" then Leadership/character is also only "one thing".

The crux of this comparison comes from how you define "better". As I pointed Kobe has had more endorsements, more individual achievements, and made more $$. That can be defined as "better" and by that definition, Kobe wins.

To your point Kobe has also had more issues both on and off the court and that is most definitely a stain. If "better" is defined in that way then Duncan wins.

If however "better" is defined as a combination of the two then I have to give the nod to Kobe--although it's very close. Duncan has done more, he's been a better leader, a better teammate, a better player, etc. But a career is an individual thing IMO.

This is a very interesting topic because it shines a lot on what's really good about both players and what's bad about both players and Duncan really does come out looking fantastic no matter who you pick...

I don't actually think of character as only one thing, one variable. It permeates everything else.

Wade n Fade
06-18-2014, 11:13 AM
Character is in the equation for a leader.

Exactly and leadership is apart of a career. Thank you.

ManRam
06-18-2014, 11:15 AM
Character is in the equation for a leader.

For sure. But there's no one clear type of character it takes to be a leader.

Ask Pau if he thinks Kobe is a great leader. Ask Phil. Ask Lamar. Hell, they got more out of Bynum there than maybe anyone ever will. Fisher thinks highly of him. It doesn't gel with everyone, but it's not like it was a colossal disaster and it certainly DOES gel with many players. With Shaq eventually it was a disaster, but let's not act like Shaq is a saint and didn't have a ton to do with that too.

Why am I defending Kobe? I hate it! He had character concerns, but I think they were mostly overblown. He won with Shaq perfectly fine and easy. He won with Pau perfectly fine and easy. In between he didn't win, but he didn't have the team. If we want to blame Kobe for Shaq leaving, well, that's probably a bit harsh.

jmaest
06-18-2014, 11:19 AM
For sure. But there's no one clear type of character it takes to be a leader.

Ask Pau if he thinks Kobe is a great leader. Ask Phil. Ask Lamar. Hell, they got more out of Bynum there than maybe anyone ever will. Fisher thinks highly of him. It doesn't gel with everyone, but it's not like it was a colossal disaster and it certainly DOES gel with many players. With Shaq eventually it was a disaster, but let's not act like Shaq is a saint and didn't have a ton to do with that too.

Why am I defending Kobe? I hate it! He had character concerns, but I think they were mostly overblown. He won with Shaq perfectly fine and easy. He won with Pau perfectly fine and easy. In between he didn't win, but he didn't have the team. If we want to blame Kobe for Shaq leaving, well, that's probably a bit harsh.

This is where you lose me.

Phil already said Kobe wasn't the best leader. It's documented that he has had issues with Gasol and other Lakers and he does have to take a significant hit for breaking up the team that won the threepeat.

That team might've won a couple of more titles together. Shaq went down to Miami with a lesser supporting cast and won in '05 with Wade and Kobe was better than Wade in '05.

I think leadership/character is a major knock on Kobe. I don't think it can be defended.

jmaest
06-18-2014, 11:20 AM
I don't actually think of character as only one thing, one variable. It permeates everything else.

This is definitely fair. Kobe is very much a selfish player and that stems from his personality. To your point.

BUT objectively looking at his career, how would you define "better" comparatively speaking?

ink
06-18-2014, 11:21 AM
For sure. But there's no one clear type of character it takes to be a leader.

Ask Pau if he thinks Kobe is a great leader. Ask Phil. Ask Lamar. Hell, they got more out of Bynum there than maybe anyone ever will. Fisher thinks highly of him. It doesn't gel with everyone, but it's not like it was a colossal disaster and it certainly DOES gel with many players. With Shaq eventually it was a disaster, but let's not act like Shaq is a saint and didn't have a ton to do with that too.

Why am I defending Kobe? I hate it! He had character concerns, but I think they were mostly overblown. He won with Shaq perfectly fine and easy. He won with Pau perfectly fine and easy. In between he didn't win, but he didn't have the team. If we want to blame Kobe for Shaq leaving, well, that's probably a bit harsh.

In the weird world of player comparisons, we're comparing two athletes, Tim Duncan and Kobe Bryant. They took polar opposite routes to the 5 rings their teams won. Look at how much carnage is left behind in Kobe's world and look at the exceptional 3 decade run capped with one of the most impressive beatdowns in the history of the game in Duncan's world. That massive LA soap opera vs. the Lamborghini from SA. Character played a significant part of the equation for both franchises.

ManRam
06-18-2014, 11:21 AM
Actually, it could have landed Kome in jail. He settled w/ the lady and bought Vanessa a huge rock to make the problem go away. It shows two things, one, the lady was either in an elaborate extortion scheme, or two, she had legit allegations. If there was DNA evidence, Kome was guilty and settled it away. As Ink says, leadership is key. Taking a risk in a situation shows a disregard for his position w/ the Lakers. Calling a ref a "fa**ot" in a game is not really a leadership move either. These types of actions on and off the court impact a team more than you think. If he cut his career shorter w/ his off the court actions, it does make him less of a basketball player since he wouldn't have 5 rings.

It could have, but it didn't. So why bother?

What he's done is what he's done. It's already been written. We can look back on it without the speculation. His career and legacy are clearly there for us to observe, and that doesn't include a jail sentence so why bother? I'm not looking into the hypothetical world...there's just no reason to.

ink
06-18-2014, 11:28 AM
This is definitely fair. Kobe is very much a selfish player and that stems from his personality. To your point.

BUT objectively looking at his career, how would you define "better" comparatively speaking?

I'm not being elusive when I say that I find comparisons to be one of the main things that plagues our sport. So, defining "better" ends up being part of the problem. I'm looking at the contrasts between the two and what I see is a stunning continuity and consistency, not to mention incredible longevity in TD's career. The contrast, beyond the superficial rings comparison (which is equal), is stark. Kobe is broken and his path is littered with debris from a me-first attitude. TD can still produce at a remarkable level and has been one of the builders of his present team. You pick.

ManRam
06-18-2014, 11:29 AM
I'm kinda in shock reading my posts. So I'm gonna stop. I'm not saying Kobe was the greatest leader ever, I'm just not willing to knock him down huge amounts for it. Clearly it worked a good deal of the time. Was it tough on some guys? Of course. But it worked more often than not.

Essentially my point is this: we've been arguing about a ton of things here, but little to none of that has been about basketball itself. In the end this stuff isn't what cements one's legacy. 30 years from now we won't be so caught up with the character concerns. What will remain indisputable are the numbers, the stats, the rings, the accolades, the longevity and so on. You know...the stuff we use to decide how good players were at the sport of basketball. Leadership matters, for sure. Especially when we're looking to separate the cream from the cream. Off the court discretion do not matter to me. I care about basketball. More specifically, I care about what actually happened on the court. Not what could have or what should have, but what did. The Kobe/Shaq thing withstanding, I don't think the carnage from Kobe's ego and immaturity is terribly significant. Phil came back to coach him. Pau didn't leave. Fisher came back. Lamar, Bynum and countless others saw their careers fall apart instantly after leaving. I just think people get carried away. That's all.

nickdymez
06-18-2014, 11:32 AM
Since the Spurs just won and this is PSD, Duncan. In real life it's a toss up really and depends on the person analyzing the two.

ink
06-18-2014, 11:34 AM
I'm kinda in shock reading my posts. So I'm gonna stop. I'm not saying Kobe was the greatest leader ever, I'm just not willing to knock him down huge amounts for it. Clearly it worked a good deal of the time. Was it tough on some guys? Of course. But it worked more often than not.

Essentially my point is this: we've been arguing about a ton of things here, but little to none of that has been about basketball itself. In the end this stuff isn't what cements one's legacy. 30 years from now we won't be so caught up with the character concerns. What will remain indisputable are the numbers, the stats, the rings, the accolades, the longevity and so on. Leadership matters, for sure. Especially when we're looking to separate the cream from the cream. Off the court discretion do not matter to me. I care about basketball. More specifically, I care about what actually happened on the court. Not what could have or what should have, but what did. The Kobe/Shaq thing withstanding, I don't think the carnage from Kobe's ego and immaturity is terribly significant. Phil came back to coach him. Pau didn't leave. Fisher came back. Lamar, Bynum and countless others saw their careers fall apart instantly after leaving. I just think people get carried away. That's all.

Comparing individuals in a team game using any methodology is NEVER about basketball itself. Not one of the 500,000 threads we've had about Kobe or Lebron or anyone vs. anyone else have been about basketball itself because basketball is not about individuals. That's the sad irony. People can't break the habit of comparing individuals even when the best TEAM in basketball has just given a clinic on what team ball looks like. People are still obsessed about "stars" and individual worth. The Spurs have just given us the demonstration of our generation and we're ignoring it.

Edit in: regarding carnage, how many rosters did Duncan slash and burn through? How many times did Kobe's Lakers have to be resuscitated from the ashes? Plot the trajectory out and look at the highs and lows and the waste. Then take a look at the consistency of the arc with Duncan and the Spurs. Coaches always say you don't want to get too high or low and the Spurs, with TD leading the way, have practised that ethos perhaps better than any other team since Russell and the Celtics.

Wade n Fade
06-18-2014, 11:55 AM
It could have, but it didn't. So why bother?

What he's done is what he's done. It's already been written. We can look back on it without the speculation. His career and legacy are clearly there for us to observe, and that doesn't include a jail sentence so why bother? I'm not looking into the hypothetical world...there's just no reason to.

Okay, let me get to my 2nd part of my point(s). If you're a coach, management member, or a player, you have doubt insinuating in your mind. It makes you realize that your chances at competing for a title might dwindle. What if you're Lamar Odom in 2006 as well? Kome demanded a trade roughly around that time and Chicago nearly landed him. Lamar Odom is thinking "oh, now I am stuck with Chucky Atkins and Kwame Brown." That doubt casting hurts Kome's leadership abilities and effects others.

WadeKobe
06-18-2014, 12:00 PM
This is where you lose me.

Phil already said Kobe wasn't the best leader. It's documented that he has had issues with Gasol and other Lakers and he does have to take a significant hit for breaking up the team that won the threepeat.

That team might've won a couple of more titles together. Shaq went down to Miami with a lesser supporting cast and won in '05 with Wade and Kobe was better than Wade in '05.

I think leadership/character is a major knock on Kobe. I don't think it can be defended.

To be clear... Shaq won in '06 with Wade, not '05... And Kobe has never been as good in any series as Wade was in the '06 Finals.

Wade n Fade
06-18-2014, 12:09 PM
To be clear... Shaq won in '06 with Wade, not '05... And Kobe has never been as good in any series as Wade was in the '06 Finals.

Exactly. Here's how I view Kobe. One of the best SGs of all time, top 50 player (idk where I would rank him specifically, but probably top 20), huge parts of titles, highly overrated, not as clutch as people think because efficiency stats show that he is not as clutch, has hit huge shots nevertheless, textbook drama queen, has heart, and is now a jumpshot guy because of his age.

torocan
06-18-2014, 12:13 PM
Coaches always say you don't want to get too high or low and the Spurs, with TD leading the way, have practised that ethos perhaps better than any other team since Russell and the Celtics.

Interestingly, the Wilt v Russell discussion does make for some interesting discussion.

Wilt was the greater player than Russell. Russell himself admits it. However, Wilt's personality and ego hurt his team in innumerable ways. It's why Russell's career is considered to be "greater" by many people.

Duncan's intangibles have value. His quiet leadership holds value. His willingness to "step back" and let others grow around him holds value. Parker himself says that it was Duncan's willingness to freely give the spotlight to Manu and Tony that allowed them to grow and gain confidence. And that it was Duncan's example that gives them the example that they now use to allow players like Kawhi to step into his own spotlight.

Kobe and Duncan are both champions. However, they're different types of champions.

However, if I'm building a team and have to choose between Kobe and Duncan, I'm choosing Duncan every time. Not just because of Duncan's amazing skills, but sometimes the things you do NOT do (like not demanding touches) are as or more important as the things you DO do (like take the last shot).

Still, I can see why people would still argue for Kobe. I think they're very close right now, with Duncan with a very small edge. I expect after next year it will clearly be in Duncan's favor unless Kobe does something miraculous next season.

IgglesFanInCO
06-18-2014, 12:16 PM
Ive never respected a player as much as I respect Timmy D, he is the ultimate professional, the ultimate competitor, and one hell of a ball player

GOAT PF and just a slightly better career than Kobe, if Kobe had been healthy lately and the lakers made some noise that might be a different answer, so its close, but Duncan's got the edge. Both top 10 GOATs for sure

xnick5757
06-18-2014, 12:19 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=bryanko01&y1=2014&p2=duncati01&y2=2014

beyourself
06-18-2014, 12:29 PM
Tim Duncan is going to dominate this comparison in most knowledgeable discussions. But we are dealing with Kobe Bryant fans here.

A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. You can't win an argument with Kobe fans. Because if you lose it, you lose it. If you win it, you lose it. You can shoot their argument full of holes and prove that he is wrong. You feel good, but then you make him feel inferior. You hurt his pride and he will resent your "win".

Wade n Fade
06-18-2014, 01:27 PM
Tim Duncan is going to dominate this comparison in most knowledgeable discussions. But we are dealing with Kobe Bryant fans here.

A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. You can't win an argument with Kobe fans. Because if you lose it, you lose it. If you win it, you lose it. You can shoot their argument full of holes and prove that he is wrong. You feel good, but then you make him feel inferior. You hurt his pride and he will resent your "win".

Exactly. Many Kome fans are very irrational. Tim Duncan can play for years to come while we don't know if Kome will ever put up all-star #s again after two back to back early season ending injuries.

jmaest
06-18-2014, 03:27 PM
To be clear... Shaq won in '06 with Wade, not '05... And Kobe has never been as good in any series as Wade was in the '06 Finals.

Sorry about that. I was just going off the top of my head on the year.

And I think you missed the point. Had Kobe not broken up the Lakers, they would have had the same core/nucleus in '06 that they essentially had in '03 and both Kobe & Shaq were certainly good enough together to have won a title and by '06 the team would have clearly shifted to Kobe's team *with* the nucleus intact.

Kobe's problem still comes back to his shooting inefficiency. When you look up his numbers in the finals of '09-'10 he shot 43 and 40% respectively from the field to Wade's 47%. That's a huge disparity. BUT Kobe did pass the ball more in '09 and certainly rebounded his tail off in '10.

Either way, neither here nor there on the point.

jmaest
06-18-2014, 03:41 PM
Tim Duncan is going to dominate this comparison in most knowledgeable discussions. But we are dealing with Kobe Bryant fans here.

A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. You can't win an argument with Kobe fans. Because if you lose it, you lose it. If you win it, you lose it. You can shoot their argument full of holes and prove that he is wrong. You feel good, but then you make him feel inferior. You hurt his pride and he will resent your "win".

Other than Duncan 'dominating' this conversation, I agree with everything you said here. He should win the comparison but 'dominate' is just a strong word.

I have to say, I've never seen anything like it. It's a ferocious loyalty in favor of Kobe. Magic fans, Bird fans, Jordan fans, etc, were never this blindly loyal.

Suppose Kobe is 11th or 12th all time greatest player. Is he any less "great"? It's too late for him to be "best". There are 5-6 guys he just can't surpass. But so friggin what? That's 5 or 6 guys out of 60-70 years and thousands of players. Being the top 100 would be an amazing accomplishment. Top 20 is just Wow. It's an absolutely honor.

Why is it that is rejected so vehemently?

MonroeFAN
06-18-2014, 06:26 PM
How is SAS a moron? Anyone making money like that is not a moron. I don't agree with most of what he has to say, but he's certainly not a dummy.

And this is quite easily Duncan for me. Kobe couldn't even make the playoffs on his own.

Lol @ correlating money and intelligence.

lol@you. the goal of life is to make money. I know a lot of people who use big words, and have an expansive knowledge of useless facts and can't apply it anything. You can have one without the other, but I certainly don't need some loser on the internet pointing out the differences to me. Coincidentally, neither does SAS.

Miltstar
06-18-2014, 07:21 PM
I respect both these guys for playing their entire career for one team

Chrisclover
06-18-2014, 07:58 PM
please explain konbe killer instinct.. WHAT ball hoggin bonehead play fake leader or I wanna be like mike, look SON Kobe is a fake the media built this hype about his killer instinct
at least his grinding teeth makes me feel that way. Duncan is like a sculpture most of the time, not showing any emotion.
And, dont downplay Kobe's competitiveness. we all know he is pathologically aggressive on court and the examples are too many to be listed.

blahblahyoutoo
06-18-2014, 09:19 PM
lol@you. the goal of life is to make money. I know a lot of people who use big words, and have an expansive knowledge of useless facts and can't apply it anything. You can have one without the other, but I certainly don't need some loser on the internet pointing out the differences to me. Coincidentally, neither does SAS.

lol @ goal in life is to make money.

btw, lets look at all these bball players that make a ton of money, but have no bball IQ. they're dumbass morons even in their profession! and of course they can't even speak their native language properly.

again, lol @ correlating money and intelligence.

GiantsSwaGG
06-18-2014, 09:23 PM
Duncan easily, he's better even if he didn't win the finals

FlashBolt
06-18-2014, 10:23 PM
This is such a stupid question. Kobe is better than Duncan.. IDK why people would even argue this. Sure, Kobe had some help but Duncan is no amateur with the amount of help he has received. Overall, I think people forget that Kobe's position requires him to be the much harder worker while Duncan has had consistent help with the way Pop manages players. Not even a contest.. You can bench Duncan and win. You bench Kobe and your team is most likely going to lose.

ink
06-18-2014, 10:51 PM
This is such a stupid question. Kobe is better than Duncan.. IDK why people would even argue this. Sure, Kobe had some help but Duncan is no amateur with the amount of help he has received. Overall, I think people forget that Kobe's position requires him to be the much harder worker while Duncan has had consistent help with the way Pop manages players. Not even a contest.. You can bench Duncan and win. You bench Kobe and your team is most likely going to lose.

That doesn't indicate Kobe's better. That indicates a team design shortcoming.

FOXHOUND
06-18-2014, 11:40 PM
Other than Duncan 'dominating' this conversation, I agree with everything you said here. He should win the comparison but 'dominate' is just a strong word.

I have to say, I've never seen anything like it. It's a ferocious loyalty in favor of Kobe. Magic fans, Bird fans, Jordan fans, etc, were never this blindly loyal.

Suppose Kobe is 11th or 12th all time greatest player. Is he any less "great"? It's too late for him to be "best". There are 5-6 guys he just can't surpass. But so friggin what? That's 5 or 6 guys out of 60-70 years and thousands of players. Being the top 100 would be an amazing accomplishment. Top 20 is just Wow. It's an absolutely honor.

Why is it that is rejected so vehemently?

Why do you assume that that's a one way thing? Why does Kobe rank in the 300s all time on the fan voted Basketball-Reference.com ELO Rating where as Duncan ranks #2 right now? Both are all time greats that are close, but they're held to different standards. I am probably less biased in this convo than most, being that I'm a Knicks fan and Kobe and Duncan were my favorite players growing up. Not that my opinion is fact or that it's worth more than anyone else's, just that it's probably less biased than most.

The fact is placing him 11th or 12th with his career merits is a serious low ball, as it would be for Duncan as well. You say you've never seen ferocious loyalty to Kobe from his fans, but I've never seen a player get treated like Kobe does either. No matter what he has accomplished throughout his career so many people just constantly try to find reasons/excuses why he wasn't really that important to that cause, or that that achievement actually isn't that impressive. People have made a rallying cry that All-Defensive Teams, which are voted on by the NBA coaches, are actually worthless and that he has been granted those honors based on hype or some sort of fixing.

You're talking about a guy who during 2005-06 was achieving scoring feats not seen since Wilt Chamberlain with Smush Parker, Luke Walton, Lamar Odom and Kwame Brown and all people did was call him a chucker, as if if other players could do it they wouldn't lol.

This is a tough conversation because of the view on these two, and how different their careers have been. Kobe is extremely polarizing, Duncan is either loved or an afterthought lost in the Spursness but never hated. It's hard to leave bias out of this conversation and both are held to completely different standards.

ink
06-18-2014, 11:44 PM
Why do you assume that that's a one way thing? Why does Kobe rank in the 300s all time on the fan voted Basketball-Reference.com ELO Rating where as Duncan ranks #2 right now? Both are all time greats that are close, but they're held to different standards. I am probably less biased in this convo than most, being that I'm a Knicks fan and Kobe and Duncan were my favorite players growing up. Not that my opinion is fact or that it's worth more than anyone else's, just that it's probably less biased than most.

The fact is placing him 11th or 12th with his career merits is a serious low ball, as it would be for Duncan as well. You say you've never seen ferocious loyalty to Kobe from his fans, but I've never seen a player get treated like Kobe does either. No matter what he has accomplished throughout his career so many people just constantly try to find reasons/excuses why he wasn't really that important to that cause, or that that achievement actually isn't that impressive. People have made a rallying cry that All-Defensive Teams, which are voted on by the NBA coaches, are actually worthless and that he has been granted those honors based on hype or some sort of fixing.

You're talking about a guy who during 2005-06 was achieving scoring feats not seen since Wilt Chamberlain with Smush Parker, Luke Walton, Lamar Odom and Kwame Brown and all people did was call him a chucker, as if if other players could do it they wouldn't lol.

This is a tough conversation because of the view on these two, and how different their careers have been. Kobe is extremely polarizing, Duncan is either loved or an afterthought lost in the Spursness but never hated. It's hard to leave bias out of this conversation and both are held to completely different standards.

I genuinely think that because Duncan behaves with class he's treated with class. The opposite is true for Kobe. It's just human nature wouldn't you agree?

Chrisclover
06-18-2014, 11:52 PM
This is such a stupid question. Kobe is better than Duncan.. IDK why people would even argue this. Sure, Kobe had some help but Duncan is no amateur with the amount of help he has received. Overall, I think people forget that Kobe's position requires him to be the much harder worker while Duncan has had consistent help with the way Pop manages players. Not even a contest.. You can bench Duncan and win. You bench Kobe and your team is most likely going to lose.
that was the pathetic thing of the Lakers. Kobe is the sole cornerstone of a whole team. without him, the team is mediocre.
but I guess this also explain the difference between Pop and Phil. Phil relied on the star players too much whereas Pop invigorates the whole team.

FOXHOUND
06-18-2014, 11:53 PM
I genuinely think that because Duncan behaves with class he's treated with class. The opposite is true for Kobe. It's just human nature wouldn't you agree?

I think that's fair, and I would never suggest Tim being treated otherwise because the man deserves all of his love. I don't think the way Kobe is treated is equal to his lack of class, because personally I don't find him to be lacking in class all that much.

The hatred for Kobe seems to be some perfect storm that was a combination of some normal maturity issues for a player of his caliber in his situation early in his career against the wall of Jordan love. At least that's how it always seemed to me. Still, it never made sense that Kobe got all the blame for the chemistry issues later in LA, while Shaq got a pass. Shaq already had a history of clashing with coaches, teams and star teammates before Kobe even played an NBA game and continued to clash after his Laker career.

For whatever reason Kobe has always been a magnet for hate, not really sure why.

FOXHOUND
06-18-2014, 11:56 PM
that was the pathetic thing of the Lakers. Kobe is the sole cornerstone of a whole team. without him, the team is mediocre.
but I guess this also explain the difference between Pop and Phil. Phil relied on the star players too much whereas Pop invigorates the whole team.

I don't think that's so much Phil as it is San Antonio. You really can't compare San Antonio to other teams, the way they do things is just so drastically different from the rest of the NBA. Duncan also played a big role in that himself with the pay cuts he started taking. San Antonio has also been the best team building organization by a landslide the past 15 years. Always winning 50 games, which means never having a high pick.

Their highest pick in the last 15 years was the 16 they used on Leonard, which they acquired from Indiana for George Hill, who they drafted at 26th and then developed him good enough to be traded for 16th just a couple of years later.

Spurs are a different machine.

kobe4thewinbang
06-19-2014, 12:00 AM
They are both awesome players.

I am more impressed by Duncan's longevity and effectiveness (especially this year against Miami). I wonder why SA didn't feed him the ball more often when they were struggling. He's got that old school toughness/fundamental game.

But Kobe--c'mon. He's Kobe. Kobe has been more of a star (live or die by Kobe's fade-away) but I think Duncan has had the better career. Not sure why, but he's a stud and Kobe had some bad years once Shaq was gone.

I wonder if they could play well together, like replace Shaq with Duncan.

ink
06-19-2014, 12:02 AM
I think that's fair, and I would never suggest Tim being treated otherwise because the man deserves all of his love. I don't think the way Kobe is treated is equal to his lack of class, because personally I don't find him to be lacking in class all that much.

The hatred for Kobe seems to be some perfect storm that was a combination of some normal maturity issues for a player of his caliber in his situation early in his career against the wall of Jordan love. At least that's how it always seemed to me. Still, it never made sense that Kobe got all the blame for the chemistry issues later in LA, while Shaq got a pass. Shaq already had a history of clashing with coaches, teams and star teammates before Kobe even played an NBA game and continued to clash after his Laker career.

For whatever reason Kobe has always been a magnet for hate, not really sure why.

The trial turned things IMO. Maybe it's not hate, maybe it's just deserved disrespect.

CityofTreez
06-19-2014, 12:04 AM
God.....Kobe must love this ****.

Barely played any games this year, but he's been discussed more often than anyone else recently.

FOXHOUND
06-19-2014, 12:09 AM
The trial turned things IMO. Maybe it's not hate, maybe it's just deserved disrespect.

Right, I don't know how I can possibly forget about that lmao. Good call.

CityofTreez
06-19-2014, 12:15 AM
The trial turned things IMO. Maybe it's not hate, maybe it's just deserved disrespect.

I'll never forget Kobe requesting that trade.
Laker fans went crazy, and the City of Los Angeles.
That was bigger than the rape allegation IMO.

IKnowHoops
06-19-2014, 01:14 AM
Duncan easily, he's better even if he didn't win the finals

Took the words right out of my mouth verbatim.

jerellh528
06-19-2014, 01:26 AM
Duplicate post

Chrisclover
06-20-2014, 10:01 AM
God.....Kobe must love this ****.

Barely played any games this year, but he's been discussed more often than anyone else recently.
Kobe is Jordan's clear-cut successor, and he is fighting against another poster boy, LBJ, in the twilight of his career.
Talks about Kobe will never end in this decade.

ink
06-20-2014, 10:25 AM
God.....Kobe must love this ****.

Barely played any games this year, but he's been discussed more often than anyone else recently.
Kobe is Jordan's clear-cut successor, and he is fighting against another poster boy, LBJ, in the twilight of his career.

Partially true. Kobe models himself on MJ. They're both off guards. But the closest anyone's come to the best is Duncan, then Shaq and still potentially Lebron, whether people like it or not. Kobe's time is just about up and he just couldn't get there.

Chrisclover
06-20-2014, 11:12 AM
I'll never forget Kobe requesting that trade.
Laker fans went crazy, and the City of Los Angeles.
That was bigger than the rape allegation IMO.
I understand your outrage for Kobe being selfish. But this is just the real Kobe. His father played NBA and coincidentally Kobe liked playing basketball since childhood. Purportedly, he scored 60 at the age of 6(I heard this in 2k14). so basically he was born and raised a scoring machine and he never wants to be a loser.
Per Kevin Ding of Bleacher Report, Kobe is a cocky jerk no matter you like him or not. Shaq and Gasol could put up with him because he brought tremendous success to them and the team. In recent years, people grow mad at him because despite his conspicuous decline of athletism,he refuses to change his play style, jacking up tons of shots every night. Now,he has repeatedly announced that he will adopt a different and less aggressive way to play basketball,which is largely due to the irreversible injuries biting him hard. If only he realized it before he torn Achilles.
with that being said, he is a legend who will be talked about often even long after retirement.

jmaest
06-20-2014, 11:26 AM
Why do you assume that that's a one way thing? Why does Kobe rank in the 300s all time on the fan voted Basketball-Reference.com ELO Rating where as Duncan ranks #2 right now? Both are all time greats that are close, but they're held to different standards. I am probably less biased in this convo than most, being that I'm a Knicks fan and Kobe and Duncan were my favorite players growing up. Not that my opinion is fact or that it's worth more than anyone else's, just that it's probably less biased than most.

The fact is placing him 11th or 12th with his career merits is a serious low ball, as it would be for Duncan as well. You say you've never seen ferocious loyalty to Kobe from his fans, but I've never seen a player get treated like Kobe does either. No matter what he has accomplished throughout his career so many people just constantly try to find reasons/excuses why he wasn't really that important to that cause, or that that achievement actually isn't that impressive. People have made a rallying cry that All-Defensive Teams, which are voted on by the NBA coaches, are actually worthless and that he has been granted those honors based on hype or some sort of fixing.

You're talking about a guy who during 2005-06 was achieving scoring feats not seen since Wilt Chamberlain with Smush Parker, Luke Walton, Lamar Odom and Kwame Brown and all people did was call him a chucker, as if if other players could do it they wouldn't lol.

This is a tough conversation because of the view on these two, and how different their careers have been. Kobe is extremely polarizing, Duncan is either loved or an afterthought lost in the Spursness but never hated. It's hard to leave bias out of this conversation and both are held to completely different standards.

I have a few issues with this.

I mostly agree with what you're saying. Kobe is definitely polarizing. For as many people who overly defend him, there's just as many overly bashing him. It's a fair point.

However, I sincerely disagree with ranking Kobe 11th or 12th as some sort of low-ball insult. I actually think it's somewhat disrespectful to the other players in history to disregard their accomplishments so dismissively. The fact is there are 5-6 guys that are next to impossible to surpass: Wilt, Jordan, Bill, Magic, & Larry. Many analysts believe Larry to be the low man on that totem pole. My personal opinion is that Hakeem makes it #6. More and more experts/analysts are agreeing with me historically.

Then there's 2 or 3 other players who are probably right there to round out the top 10. Shaq, for example. Dr. J, Oscar Robertson, & Tim Duncan.

Being on the outside of that group--for any player in the history of the game--is not an insult in any way, shape, or form. What people seem to lose sight of is how disrespectful it is to those all-time greats to simply dismiss them away so easily. Certainly I'm not suggesting you are doing that but others certainly are. If I'm being passionate about this conversation one way or the other it's only because of this reason. I have no stake in the game, to be quite honest.

And now we get back to Kobe. Evaluate him honestly and you'll see where myself, ink, and a few others are coming from.

He played defense well. He wasn't a 'shut down' defender. He was a good defender. He scored a lot. BUT he shot a lot. A lot. More than any other player in the history of the NBA. It is very difficult to be unbiased and ignore that his scoring prowess did not also stem from a selfish desire to score at the expense of a team concept. It'd be one thing if he was scoring 52, 53, or 54% of the time. It's another when you're scoring 43, 44, 45% of the time. He did not hide the fact that he wanted the ball in his hands all the time and had no issues blowing teams he played on to satisfy his own personal goals. Those things matter in this type of conversation. They just do.

My personal opinion has Kobe 9th or 10th all-time. I actually have him bumping Dr. J & Oscar. In no particular order I would go with my top five of Hakeem, Wilt, Russel, Magic, & Jordan. I would follow that with Kareem, Bird, Duncan, & Shaq. I have Kobe rounding out the top 10 pushing Dr. J to #11 & Oscar to 12. Many very credible people think both those guys belong in the GOAT conversation. It's extremely complimentary to Kobe to be ahead of them all-time. Think about how many other all-time greats that puts Kobe ahead of: Barkley, Worthy, Cooper, Pippen, Ewing, West, Malone, Stockton, Payton, Isiah (who never gets the credit due him. He may be a jerk but what an amazing player he was), and many others. We're talking about great, great, great players.

Many of those players played in a much more difficult NBA than what Kobe has faced, with rules that didn't favor the offense as they do today, in systems that were all about 'team first' with no concept of "shoot till your arms fall off", and had to be 'great' on the defensive end just to survive. And I think, credibly speaking, many of us put Kobe ahead of them.

I think I'm as objective as humanly possible and contrary to what Laker fans on here think, I don't hate Kobe by any stretch. I love basketball. I'm softer on ego & selfishness than others here are. My only pet peeve is forced shots & stupid mistakes.

Duncan is undervalued and I know somewhere someone is making the case of Duncan in the top 5 and they're going to have a good case. Duncan did & does everything textbook perfect. I mean everything. Passing, Rebounding, Scoring with efficiency in every way, Defending, moving without the ball, setting screens, hustling, staying within the team framework, leadership, etc. To say that one player or another is "better" than Duncan you'd have to really think about it. There isn't one thing on the basketball court that he does poorly. Not one.

Th3birdman
06-20-2014, 02:26 PM
This isn't even a real question.

Once they matched up ring totals, the other accolades outnumber Kobe's by quite a bit.

Duncan is considered best ever at his position-- Kobe is not.

Duncan has been THE guy from day one, and on all of his 'ships sans perhaps 2014. Kobe has only been THE guy on his ring teams twice, and you could argue that he got bailed out in 2010.

Kobe is great but Duncan is greater.

ink
06-20-2014, 03:21 PM
Why do you assume that that's a one way thing? Why does Kobe rank in the 300s all time on the fan voted Basketball-Reference.com ELO Rating where as Duncan ranks #2 right now? Both are all time greats that are close, but they're held to different standards. I am probably less biased in this convo than most, being that I'm a Knicks fan and Kobe and Duncan were my favorite players growing up. Not that my opinion is fact or that it's worth more than anyone else's, just that it's probably less biased than most.

The fact is placing him 11th or 12th with his career merits is a serious low ball, as it would be for Duncan as well. You say you've never seen ferocious loyalty to Kobe from his fans, but I've never seen a player get treated like Kobe does either. No matter what he has accomplished throughout his career so many people just constantly try to find reasons/excuses why he wasn't really that important to that cause, or that that achievement actually isn't that impressive. People have made a rallying cry that All-Defensive Teams, which are voted on by the NBA coaches, are actually worthless and that he has been granted those honors based on hype or some sort of fixing.

You're talking about a guy who during 2005-06 was achieving scoring feats not seen since Wilt Chamberlain with Smush Parker, Luke Walton, Lamar Odom and Kwame Brown and all people did was call him a chucker, as if if other players could do it they wouldn't lol.

This is a tough conversation because of the view on these two, and how different their careers have been. Kobe is extremely polarizing, Duncan is either loved or an afterthought lost in the Spursness but never hated. It's hard to leave bias out of this conversation and both are held to completely different standards.

I have a few issues with this.

I mostly agree with what you're saying. Kobe is definitely polarizing. For as many people who overly defend him, there's just as many overly bashing him. It's a fair point.

However, I sincerely disagree with ranking Kobe 11th or 12th as some sort of low-ball insult. I actually think it's somewhat disrespectful to the other players in history to disregard their accomplishments so dismissively. The fact is there are 5-6 guys that are next to impossible to surpass: Wilt, Jordan, Bill, Magic, & Larry. Many analysts believe Larry to be the low man on that totem pole. My personal opinion is that Hakeem makes it #6. More and more experts/analysts are agreeing with me historically.

Then there's 2 or 3 other players who are probably right there to round out the top 10. Shaq, for example. Dr. J, Oscar Robertson, & Tim Duncan.

Being on the outside of that group--for any player in the history of the game--is not an insult in any way, shape, or form. What people seem to lose sight of is how disrespectful it is to those all-time greats to simply dismiss them away so easily. Certainly I'm not suggesting you are doing that but others certainly are. If I'm being passionate about this conversation one way or the other it's only because of this reason. I have no stake in the game, to be quite honest.

And now we get back to Kobe. Evaluate him honestly and you'll see where myself, ink, and a few others are coming from.

He played defense well. He wasn't a 'shut down' defender. He was a good defender. He scored a lot. BUT he shot a lot. A lot. More than any other player in the history of the NBA. It is very difficult to be unbiased and ignore that his scoring prowess did not also stem from a selfish desire to score at the expense of a team concept. It'd be one thing if he was scoring 52, 53, or 54% of the time. It's another when you're scoring 43, 44, 45% of the time. He did not hide the fact that he wanted the ball in his hands all the time and had no issues blowing teams he played on to satisfy his own personal goals. Those things matter in this type of conversation. They just do.

My personal opinion has Kobe 9th or 10th all-time. I actually have him bumping Dr. J & Oscar. In no particular order I would go with my top five of Hakeem, Wilt, Russel, Magic, & Jordan. I would follow that with Kareem, Bird, Duncan, & Shaq. I have Kobe rounding out the top 10 pushing Dr. J to #11 & Oscar to 12. Many very credible people think both those guys belong in the GOAT conversation. It's extremely complimentary to Kobe to be ahead of them all-time. Think about how many other all-time greats that puts Kobe ahead of: Barkley, Worthy, Cooper, Pippen, Ewing, West, Malone, Stockton, Payton, Isiah (who never gets the credit due him. He may be a jerk but what an amazing player he was), and many others. We're talking about great, great, great players.

Many of those players played in a much more difficult NBA than what Kobe has faced, with rules that didn't favor the offense as they do today, in systems that were all about 'team first' with no concept of "shoot till your arms fall off", and had to be 'great' on the defensive end just to survive. And I think, credibly speaking, many of us put Kobe ahead of them.

I think I'm as objective as humanly possible and contrary to what Laker fans on here think, I don't hate Kobe by any stretch. I love basketball. I'm softer on ego & selfishness than others here are. My only pet peeve is forced shots & stupid mistakes.

Duncan is undervalued and I know somewhere someone is making the case of Duncan in the top 5 and they're going to have a good case. Duncan did & does everything textbook perfect. I mean everything. Passing, Rebounding, Scoring with efficiency in every way, Defending, moving without the ball, setting screens, hustling, staying within the team framework, leadership, etc. To say that one player or another is "better" than Duncan you'd have to really think about it. There isn't one thing on the basketball court that he does poorly. Not one.

Thoroughly enjoyed that post.

Bruno
06-20-2014, 03:34 PM
I mostly agree with what you're saying. Kobe is definitely polarizing. For as many people who overly defend him, there's just as many overly bashing him. It's a fair point.
agreed.


However, I sincerely disagree with ranking Kobe 11th or 12th as some sort of low-ball insult. I actually think it's somewhat disrespectful to the other players in history to disregard their accomplishments so dismissively. The fact is there are 5-6 guys that are next to impossible to surpass: Wilt, Jordan, Bill, Magic, & Larry. Many analysts believe Larry to be the low man on that totem pole. My personal opinion is that Hakeem makes it #6. More and more experts/analysts are agreeing with me historically.
why are Larry Bird and Magic Johnson impossible to surpass?


Then there's 2 or 3 other players who are probably right there to round out the top 10. Shaq, for example. Dr. J, Oscar Robertson, & Tim Duncan.
Dr. J and O's career don't hold up to Kobes, and Tim Duncan is better than Magic and Bird.


Being on the outside of that group--for any player in the history of the game--is not an insult in any way, shape, or form. What people seem to lose sight of is how disrespectful it is to those all-time greats to simply dismiss them away so easily. Certainly I'm not suggesting you are doing that but others certainly are. If I'm being passionate about this conversation one way or the other it's only because of this reason. I have no stake in the game, to be quite honest.

not at all. you just have to look at the totality of their careers and make a judgement call.


He played defense well. He wasn't a 'shut down' defender. He was a good defender. He scored a lot. BUT he shot a lot. A lot. More than any other player in the history of the NBA. It is very difficult to be unbiased and ignore that his scoring prowess did not also stem from a selfish desire to score at the expense of a team concept. It'd be one thing if he was scoring 52, 53, or 54% of the time. It's another when you're scoring 43, 44, 45% of the time. He did not hide the fact that he wanted the ball in his hands all the time and had no issues blowing teams he played on to satisfy his own personal goals. Those things matter in this type of conversation. They just do.Kobe was a shut down defender. he was excellent.

Tim Duncan has a lower career TS% than Kobe Bryant. you can talk all day about how they got to those numbers but Kobes aggressive style of play landed him 8 FTA per game for over a decade and he scores the basketball at a more efficient rate than Tim Duncan when we talk about the totality of scoring efficiency.


My personal opinion has Kobe 9th or 10th all-time. I actually have him bumping Dr. J & Oscar. In no particular order I would go with my top five of Hakeem, Wilt, Russel, Magic, & Jordan. I would follow that with Kareem, Bird, Duncan, & Shaq. I have Kobe rounding out the top 10 pushing Dr. J to #11 & Oscar to 12. Many very credible people think both those guys belong in the GOAT conversation. It's extremely complimentary to Kobe to be ahead of them all-time. Think about how many other all-time greats that puts Kobe ahead of: Barkley, Worthy, Cooper, Pippen, Ewing, West, Malone, Stockton, Payton, Isiah (who never gets the credit due him. He may be a jerk but what an amazing player he was), and many others. We're talking about great, great, great players.
respectable. i think you overrate magic and bird but were just splitting hairs.

kobe has earned to be ahead of J and O. He's accomplished more. it's complimentary to them that their legacy held up so well since their retirement.


Many of those players played in a much more difficult NBA than what Kobe has faced, with rules that didn't favor the offense as they do today, in systems that were all about 'team first' with no concept of "shoot till your arms fall off", and had to be 'great' on the defensive end just to survive. And I think, credibly speaking, many of us put Kobe ahead of them.Kobe played during the most dominant defensive era in NBA history. Go look at the defensive rating of the leagues elite teams from the early 2000's.


I think I'm as objective as humanly possible and contrary to what Laker fans on here think, I don't hate Kobe by any stretch. I love basketball. I'm softer on ego & selfishness than others here are. My only pet peeve is forced shots & stupid mistakes.I think both have been over exaggerated.


Duncan is undervalued and I know somewhere someone is making the case of Duncan in the top 5 and they're going to have a good case. Duncan did & does everything textbook perfect. I mean everything. Passing, Rebounding, Scoring with efficiency in every way, Defending, moving without the ball, setting screens, hustling, staying within the team framework, leadership, etc. To say that one player or another is "better" than Duncan you'd have to really think about it. There isn't one thing on the basketball court that he does poorly. Not one. He is under valued! you rank him below Bird and Magic who get to float through the legacy books on their global impact opposed to their lack luster defense or short careers :)

Nice post.

jmaest
06-20-2014, 04:18 PM
why are Larry Bird and Magic Johnson impossible to surpass?

You cannot ignore the style of play or the rules of the league. Magic & Bird went to 14 Finals between them winning 8. Bird was as clutch as they come and, contrary to what you wrote below, was a "shut down" defender. Magic was a subpar defensively--good catch--but he could literally play all 5 offensive positions on the floor to an All-Star caliber level.

The whole reason "clutch" is referenced in basketball is because of Bird.


Dr. J and O's career don't hold up to Kobes, and Tim Duncan is better than Magic and Bird.

We can agree to disagree on all counts. Dr. J & Oscar have better numbers arguably than Kobe. Oscar's career average of 25/9/9 maybe the most impressive one in history.


Kobe was a shut down defender. he was excellent.

No he wasn't. I hate having to throw this out there but Phil even said so. He just wasn't. He was good but "shut down" is a very rare thing. Jordan was that once, Rodman, Pippen, Russell. Kobe wasn't on their level defensively.


Tim Duncan has a lower career TS% than Kobe Bryant. you can talk all day about how they got to those numbers but Kobes aggressive style of play landed him 8 FTA per game for over a decade and he scores the basketball at a more efficient rate than Tim Duncan when we talk about the totality of scoring efficiency.

You're going to lose me here. Kobe took more shots, missed more shots. We don't need an advanced metric to define efficiency. There's no way Kobe was more efficient at scoring than Duncan.


kobe has earned to be ahead of J and O. He's accomplished more. it's complimentary to them that their legacy held up so well since their retirement.

Well said.


Kobe played during the most dominant defensive era in NBA history. Go look at the defensive rating of the leagues elite teams from the early 2000's.

That's illogical and the defensive ratings are flawed. That conversation has already occurred in numerous locations so I won't rehash that here.

No 7-footers. No hand checking. Defensive 3 seconds. Flagrant fouls. That alone skews the game in favor of the offense, as it had to when those rules came to be. They didn't exist in the early to mid-90's.


He is under valued! you rank him below Bird and Magic who get to float through the legacy books on their global impact opposed to their lack luster defense or short careers :)


Agree to disagree. Very nice rebuttal.

TornadoOfSouls
06-23-2014, 06:27 AM
Tim Duncan has a lower career TS% than Kobe Bryant. you can talk all day about how they got to those numbers but Kobes aggressive style of play landed him 8 FTA per game for over a decade and he scores the basketball at a more efficient rate than Tim Duncan when we talk about the totality of scoring efficiency.

Playoff TS%:

.548 - Duncan
.541 - Kobe

Kobe's TS% suffers a significant 1.4% drop from regular season to playoffs. Duncan stays mostly consistent with only a 0.3% drop from reg season to post season.

Munkeysuit
06-23-2014, 07:28 AM
No one can question Duncan's legacy BUT, his career only seems a bit more satisfying because he's doing at the age he's doing it now, lets not be too quick to forget about the Mamba...

siix
06-23-2014, 07:50 AM
duncan is a star but kobe is a legend.....most ppl gonna remember kobe after both there careers are over and thats the truth

TornadoOfSouls
06-23-2014, 08:21 AM
duncan is a star but kobe is a legend.....most ppl gonna remember kobe after both there careers are over and thats the truth

A legend who won the majority of his championships as a sidekick? Kobe has the hype and media in LA behind him. Of course he's going to be more popular than a guy that's played in San Antonio his whole career. But this thread has nothing to do with popularity and hype. Duncan's the superior player. Same amount of championships. More league MVPs. More Finals MVPs. Better advanced stats. Better impact stats. Better longevity. Better team player.

NYKalltheway
06-23-2014, 10:12 AM
I have a few issues with this.

I mostly agree with what you're saying. Kobe is definitely polarizing. For as many people who overly defend him, there's just as many overly bashing him. It's a fair point.

However, I sincerely disagree with ranking Kobe 11th or 12th as some sort of low-ball insult. I actually think it's somewhat disrespectful to the other players in history to disregard their accomplishments so dismissively. The fact is there are 5-6 guys that are next to impossible to surpass: Wilt, Jordan, Bill, Magic, & Larry. Many analysts believe Larry to be the low man on that totem pole. My personal opinion is that Hakeem makes it #6. More and more experts/analysts are agreeing with me historically.

Then there's 2 or 3 other players who are probably right there to round out the top 10. Shaq, for example. Dr. J, Oscar Robertson, & Tim Duncan.

Being on the outside of that group--for any player in the history of the game--is not an insult in any way, shape, or form. What people seem to lose sight of is how disrespectful it is to those all-time greats to simply dismiss them away so easily. Certainly I'm not suggesting you are doing that but others certainly are. If I'm being passionate about this conversation one way or the other it's only because of this reason. I have no stake in the game, to be quite honest.

And now we get back to Kobe. Evaluate him honestly and you'll see where myself, ink, and a few others are coming from.

He played defense well. He wasn't a 'shut down' defender. He was a good defender. He scored a lot. BUT he shot a lot. A lot. More than any other player in the history of the NBA. It is very difficult to be unbiased and ignore that his scoring prowess did not also stem from a selfish desire to score at the expense of a team concept. It'd be one thing if he was scoring 52, 53, or 54% of the time. It's another when you're scoring 43, 44, 45% of the time. He did not hide the fact that he wanted the ball in his hands all the time and had no issues blowing teams he played on to satisfy his own personal goals. Those things matter in this type of conversation. They just do.

My personal opinion has Kobe 9th or 10th all-time. I actually have him bumping Dr. J & Oscar. In no particular order I would go with my top five of Hakeem, Wilt, Russel, Magic, & Jordan. I would follow that with Kareem, Bird, Duncan, & Shaq. I have Kobe rounding out the top 10 pushing Dr. J to #11 & Oscar to 12. Many very credible people think both those guys belong in the GOAT conversation. It's extremely complimentary to Kobe to be ahead of them all-time. Think about how many other all-time greats that puts Kobe ahead of: Barkley, Worthy, Cooper, Pippen, Ewing, West, Malone, Stockton, Payton, Isiah (who never gets the credit due him. He may be a jerk but what an amazing player he was), and many others. We're talking about great, great, great players.

Many of those players played in a much more difficult NBA than what Kobe has faced, with rules that didn't favor the offense as they do today, in systems that were all about 'team first' with no concept of "shoot till your arms fall off", and had to be 'great' on the defensive end just to survive. And I think, credibly speaking, many of us put Kobe ahead of them.

I think I'm as objective as humanly possible and contrary to what Laker fans on here think, I don't hate Kobe by any stretch. I love basketball. I'm softer on ego & selfishness than others here are. My only pet peeve is forced shots & stupid mistakes.

Duncan is undervalued and I know somewhere someone is making the case of Duncan in the top 5 and they're going to have a good case. Duncan did & does everything textbook perfect. I mean everything. Passing, Rebounding, Scoring with efficiency in every way, Defending, moving without the ball, setting screens, hustling, staying within the team framework, leadership, etc. To say that one player or another is "better" than Duncan you'd have to really think about it. There isn't one thing on the basketball court that he does poorly. Not one.

I love this post. Even if I don't agree 100% with it, I just love it. Especially the bold part.

slashsnake
06-24-2014, 12:01 AM
duncan is a star but kobe is a legend.....most ppl gonna remember kobe after both there careers are over and thats the truth

That's true... he was in the media's eye a lot more. Bigs are hard to sell. Be like Mike, sure, he isn't that tall out there. Be like Ewing. Not happening without a genetic anomaly. Be fundamental? even worse.

So kobe does win out on the fame side of things here.

koreancabbage
06-24-2014, 12:05 AM
duncan is a star but kobe is a legend.....most ppl gonna remember kobe after both there careers are over and thats the truth

"casual fans" are. "basketball fans" will remember Duncan moreso than Kobe.

bucketss
06-24-2014, 12:14 AM
kobe is more famous and has cooler basketball moves, thats all i can think of.

jerellh528
06-24-2014, 12:44 AM
"casual fans" are. "basketball fans" will remember Duncan moreso than Kobe.

I don't know if this is true. I'm thinking most people regardless of level of fandom, even people who have never watched a single game will remember Kobe more.

ink
06-24-2014, 01:21 AM
"casual fans" are. "basketball fans" will remember Duncan moreso than Kobe.

I don't know if this is true. I'm thinking most people regardless of level of fandom, even people who have never watched a single game will remember Kobe more.

Isn't that what he meant by casual fans?

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-24-2014, 01:42 AM
It's honestly pretty even. I had Duncan down on my list when he and the spurs choked last years finals away, but he proved me wrong this year. I didn't think he or the spurs had it in them and the served the Heat up. Both Duncan and Kobe are debatable for top five all time. Kobe getting hurt this year hurt him, his longevity was unreal till last year.

bucketss
06-24-2014, 01:59 AM
It's honestly pretty even. I had Duncan down on my list when he and the spurs choked last years finals away, but he proved me wrong this year. I didn't think he or the spurs had it in them and the served the Heat up. Both Duncan and Kobe are debatable for top five all time. Kobe getting hurt this year hurt him, his longevity was unreal till last year.

wait there's a debate for kobe being top 5?


magic,jordan,kareem,russel, bird, shaq, wilt

can u seriously argue kobe over any of these guys? get real

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-24-2014, 02:03 AM
It's honestly pretty even. I had Duncan down on my list when he and the spurs choked last years finals away, but he proved me wrong this year. I didn't think he or the spurs had it in them and the served the Heat up. Both Duncan and Kobe are debatable for top five all time. Kobe getting hurt this year hurt him, his longevity was unreal till last year.

wait there's a debate for kobe being top 5?


magic,jordan,kareem,russel, bird, shaq, wilt

can u seriously argue kobe over any of these guys? get real

He's over shaq, and bird already. Most people outside this site agree. I'm not sure I've heard anyone say wilt or Russell are better than Kobe either.

bucketss
06-24-2014, 02:07 AM
He's over shaq, and bird already. Most people outside this site agree. I'm not sure I've heard anyone say wilt or Russell are better than Kobe either.

lol thanks for the laugh, we're done here.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-24-2014, 02:37 AM
He's over shaq, and bird already. Most people outside this site agree. I'm not sure I've heard anyone say wilt or Russell are better than Kobe either.

lol thanks for the laugh, we're done here.

Yes we are. Good looking on the sig tho.

jerellh528
06-24-2014, 03:49 AM
Isn't that what he meant by casual fans?

Yeah, but I also said regardless of fandom, meaning you super duper fans too.

flclfanman
06-24-2014, 03:55 AM
Duncan. Has Kobe ever won a championship as the guy? Before you say 2009 vs. ORL, Pau Gasol beasted and was robbed of Finals MVP.

flclfanman
06-24-2014, 03:58 AM
He's over shaq, and bird already. Most people outside this site agree. I'm not sure I've heard anyone say wilt or Russell are better than Kobe either.

He cant be better than the guy who outperformed him for his first 3 titles. Better than Bird? :laugh2: children these days.

Kobe isn't even the best Laker of all time. Magic, Shaq, Kareem, Wilt, and MAYBE West were all better.


lol thanks for the laugh, we're done here.

:cheers:

CityofTreez
06-24-2014, 05:54 AM
Kobe is Jordan's clear-cut successor, and he is fighting against another poster boy, LBJ, in the twilight of his career.
Talks about Kobe will never end in this decade.

I agree.
Living in California, if you discuss anything basketball related, 90% of the time Kobe's name is mentioned.


I understand your outrage for Kobe being selfish. But this is just the real Kobe. His father played NBA and coincidentally Kobe liked playing basketball since childhood. Purportedly, he scored 60 at the age of 6(I heard this in 2k14). so basically he was born and raised a scoring machine and he never wants to be a loser.
Per Kevin Ding of Bleacher Report, Kobe is a cocky jerk no matter you like him or not. Shaq and Gasol could put up with him because he brought tremendous success to them and the team. In recent years, people grow mad at him because despite his conspicuous decline of athletism,he refuses to change his play style, jacking up tons of shots every night. Now,he has repeatedly announced that he will adopt a different and less aggressive way to play basketball,which is largely due to the irreversible injuries biting him hard. If only he realized it before he torn Achilles.
with that being said, he is a legend who will be talked about often even long after retirement.

I'm a Kings fan, so I wasn't outraged more so than shocked.

I was hinting at the "leadership" aspect of Kobe.
I always thought I'd never see Kobe leave LA up until those reports came. I knew he was a cocky SOB, but never envisioned him giving up on LA. It's history now, but he had a special agenda with the trade request. I just think that selfishness/boldness in a decision to hold LA ransom knocked his image down immensely compared to report that he banged a white girl in COL, and she cried rape.

jmaest
06-24-2014, 11:40 AM
He's over shaq, and bird already. Most people outside this site agree. I'm not sure I've heard anyone say wilt or Russell are better than Kobe either.

No he's not. No one legitimately, anywhere, ranks Kobe ahead of any player you've mentioned. No one.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-24-2014, 11:44 AM
He's over shaq, and bird already. Most people outside this site agree. I'm not sure I've heard anyone say wilt or Russell are better than Kobe either.

No he's not. No one legitimately, anywhere, ranks Kobe ahead of any player you've mentioned. No one.

Like I said, the only people who have Kobe ranked so low are all psd users.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-24-2014, 11:45 AM
He's over shaq, and bird already. Most people outside this site agree. I'm not sure I've heard anyone say wilt or Russell are better than Kobe either.

He cant be better than the guy who outperformed him for his first 3 titles. Better than Bird? :laugh2: children these days.

Kobe isn't even the best Laker of all time. Magic, Shaq, Kareem, Wilt, and MAYBE West were all better.


lol thanks for the laugh, we're done here.

:cheers:


Lmaoooo!! So Kobe is the sixth best laker of all time? Wow, you guys keep getting dumber.

flea
06-24-2014, 11:51 AM
You're the Kobephile that said he's better than Bird. Everyone is still reeling in laughter over that.

jmaest
06-24-2014, 12:04 PM
Lmaoooo!! So Kobe is the sixth best laker of all time? Wow, you guys keep getting dumber.

It's arguable.

Can you imagine how many points West would have scored with a 3 point line? He was a jump shooter like Kobe but he shot to a higher percentage and was certainly more of a team player.

I haven't watched enough tape of West to speak to his defensive prowess one way or the other, but if we assume he was at least a good defender, then a legitimate argument can be made for having West above Kobe.

Either way, it's impossible to argue that Kobe is above Wilt, Kareem, or Magic. I would *only* put him ahead of Shaq because Shaq wasn't a career Laker BUT Shaq was the better player in a Laker uniform for any 5 year period of Kobe's career.

So Kobe is the 4th or 5th best Laker of all-time IMO as well.

This brings to mind a very good question: Are you guys Laker fans or just Kobe fans?

Because it seems to me that Laker fans should be thrilled that no less than 3 of the top 10 players all-time are Lakers in anyone's book. Wilt, Magic, & Kareem are all in the top 10 on everyone's list. (Kareem was arguably better as a Buck but that's neither here nor there.) If Kobe makes it in 9th or 10th then 40% of the all time top 10 would be Lakers. Why would you even be arguing?

Chronz
06-24-2014, 12:29 PM
Its pretty easily Duncan, guy has been All-NBA since day 1, Kobe is the better offensive player but Duncan just has that 2-way impact that the smalls simply cant match.

jmaest
06-24-2014, 12:36 PM
Its pretty easily Duncan, guy has been All-NBA since day 1, Kobe is the better offensive player but Duncan just has that 2-way impact that the smalls simply cant match.

I don't think you can argue that Kobe is a better offensive player. Your argument would be that Kobe scores more but that's not the same thing.

What can Kobe do "better" than Duncan offensively? Long-range jump shot is probably the only thing. Duncan can put the ball on the floor and get to the basket as well as Kobe can. From the mid-range, they're both equally effective.

And then there are other aspects of offense to consider. Duncan is a better passer, for sure. Duncan is a better offensive rebounder. Duncan moves well without the ball, stays within the offensive framework, etc.

Outside of Long-range jumpers there's nothing that Kobe does "better" than Duncan. He scores more and he shoots more.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-24-2014, 12:37 PM
You're the Kobephile that said he's better than Bird. Everyone is still reeling in laughter over that.

Most pro analyst agree, I'm sorry psd users live in a Lebron bubble.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-24-2014, 12:42 PM
Lmaoooo!! So Kobe is the sixth best laker of all time? Wow, you guys keep getting dumber.

It's arguable.

Can you imagine how many points West would have scored with a 3 point line? He was a jump shooter like Kobe but he shot to a higher percentage and was certainly more of a team player.

I haven't watched enough tape of West to speak to his defensive prowess one way or the other, but if we assume he was at least a good defender, then a legitimate argument can be made for having West above Kobe.

Either way, it's impossible to argue that Kobe is above Wilt, Kareem, or Magic. I would *only* put him ahead of Shaq because Shaq wasn't a career Laker BUT Shaq was the better player in a Laker uniform for any 5 year period of Kobe's career.

So Kobe is the 4th or 5th best Laker of all-time IMO as well.

This brings to mind a very good question: Are you guys Laker fans or just Kobe fans?

Because it seems to me that Laker fans should be thrilled that no less than 3 of the top 10 players all-time are Lakers in anyone's book. Wilt, Magic, & Kareem are all in the top 10 on everyone's list. (Kareem was arguably better as a Buck but that's neither here nor there.) If Kobe makes it in 9th or 10th then 40% of the all time top 10 would be Lakers. Why would you even be arguing?
Nothing is arguable, Kobe and magic are by far the best lakers ever. Most people have Kobe above ahi concluding magic himself. Just stop before you join my sig with buckets .

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-24-2014, 12:45 PM
Its pretty easily Duncan, guy has been All-NBA since day 1, Kobe is the better offensive player but Duncan just has that 2-way impact that the smalls simply cant match.no it is not "easily" this is probably as close as players can get, both are top 7 all time. One thing that's forsure is Lebron won't be catching these guys anything soon.

Chronz
06-24-2014, 12:52 PM
no it is not "easily" this is probably as close as players can get, both are top 7 all time. One thing that's forsure is Lebron won't be catching these guys anything soon.
Not seeing what makes it close. Its a no brainer for me and I dont see what Bron has to do with this topic so PLZ stop trying to troll and actually have an intelligent discussion for once.

Chronz
06-24-2014, 12:54 PM
I don't think you can argue that Kobe is a better offensive player. Your argument would be that Kobe scores more but that's not the same thing.
Scores more with greater offensive efficiency with a more versatile skillset that opens up the game for his teammates. Duncan has his merits but he wasn't an elite offensive player for much of his prime.


What can Kobe do "better" than Duncan offensively? Long-range jump shot is probably the only thing. Duncan can put the ball on the floor and get to the basket as well as Kobe can. From the mid-range, they're both equally effective.
They really arent. Kobe is better at everything you mentioned.


And then there are other aspects of offense to consider. Duncan is a better passer, for sure. Duncan is a better offensive rebounder. Duncan moves well without the ball, stays within the offensive framework, etc.
When you account for those rebounds, Kobe is STILL more efficient. Im not convinced Duncan is a better passer, even if he were, Kobe is still the better facilitator because thats his job.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-24-2014, 01:00 PM
no it is not "easily" this is probably as close as players can get, both are top 7 all time. One thing that's forsure is Lebron won't be catching these guys anything soon.
Not seeing what makes it close. Its a no brainer for me and I dont see what Bron has to do with this topic so PLZ stop trying to troll and actually have an intelligent discussion for once.

Kobe has had to go through much more than Duncan to gain his rings. Duncan has had teams and the coach his while career. Kobe's road was much more difficult, and before he got injured, he was much more consistent that Duncan.

bucketss
06-24-2014, 01:06 PM
Kobe has had to go through much more than Duncan to gain his rings. Duncan has had teams and the coach his while career. Kobe's road was much more difficult, and before he got injured, he was much more consistent that Duncan.

poor kobe had to play with the most dominant big man in nba history right out of highschool, he sure has went through a lot.

Byronicle
06-24-2014, 01:08 PM
You cannot compare the two together except in trophy count.

They both play different positions and different roles. You can only compare how good they are in comparison to players of the same position, or in category i.e. Kobe is a wing and Duncan is a bigman, and see how much they differentiate from other greats in the same category.

Chronz
06-24-2014, 01:09 PM
Kobe has had to go through much more than Duncan to gain his rings.
Im not the type to focus on rings more than what the individual actually got out of his teams.
But go ahead and rank their championship runs, Im genuinely curious.


Duncan has had teams and the coach his while career.
Thats because hes a better leader and is FAR more coachable . Kobe was the type who had to sit out long stretches to realize that he needed to play more team oriented basketball. The kind who had to grow into trusting his coaching staff and still butted heads with them.


Kobe's road was much more difficult, and before he got injured, he was much more consistent that Duncan.
Consistent at what?

Byronicle
06-24-2014, 01:41 PM
What I do have to say is

Kobe had one of the best, most dominant centers ever to get him his first 3 rings. Even when he got his back-to-back rings, he had one of the best supporting cast starting with a great front court in Odom-Bynum-Gasol and some good defensive SFs in Artest-Ariza

Duncan has a great supporting cast, no doubt about that but he never played with another franchise player ever. Ginobili or Parker would never be the best players on any other team.

I also wonder how Duncan's stats would look like on another system that wasn't "ball movement dominant". With a career usage average of 27.1% vs Kobe's 31.8% (4.7% difference)

bucketss
06-24-2014, 01:51 PM
Most pro analyst agree, I'm sorry psd users live in a Lebron bubble.

what does this have to do with lebron? you're really obsessed.

kickflip.master
06-24-2014, 05:23 PM
Duncan has more MVPs , FMVPs and his team has been a contender for pretty much all his years. Kobe can't say any of that.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-24-2014, 05:45 PM
Kobe has had to go through much more than Duncan to gain his rings.
Im not the type to focus on rings more than what the individual actually got out of his teams.
But go ahead and rank their championship runs, Im genuinely curious.


Duncan has had teams and the coach his while career.
Thats because hes a better leader and is FAR more coachable . Kobe was the type who had to sit out long stretches to realize that he needed to play more team oriented basketball. The kind who had to grow into trusting his coaching staff and still butted heads with them.


Kobe's road was much more difficult, and before he got injured, he was much more consistent that Duncan.
Consistent at what?


Off the top of my head I rank them

1: 01 Lakers
2: 02 Lakers
3: 03 Spurs
4: 05 Spurs
5: 00 Lakers
6: 14 Spurs
7: 10 Lakers
8: 09 Lakers
9: 07 Spurs
10: 99 Spurs

No doubt Kobe's attitude has cost him some things in his career, but for his team to be disassembled and then come storming back for two straight rings means a lot.


He was more consistent on his play. His longevity is insane. Duncan before last year almost feel off a cliff for a fee years. He looked old, slow and not the same. He found the fountain of youth recently

bucketss
06-24-2014, 05:49 PM
Off the top of my head I rank them

1: 01 Lakers
2: 02 Lakers
3: 03 Spurs
4: 05 Spurs
5: 00 Lakers
6: 14 Spurs
7: 10 Lakers
8: 09 Lakers
9: 07 Spurs
10: 99 Spurs

No doubt Kobe's attitude has cost him some things in his career, but for his team to be disassembled and then come storming back for two straight rings means a lot.


He was more consistent on his play. His longevity is insane. Duncan before last year almost feel off a cliff for a fee years. He looked old, slow and not the same. He found the fountain of youth recently

how is kobes road harder when duncan and co. just beat the most stacked team in nba history almost twice. unlike kobe he wasn't playing along a top 5 goat.

jerellh528
06-24-2014, 06:00 PM
I thought he said ROAD not desination

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-24-2014, 06:03 PM
Off the top of my head I rank them

1: 01 Lakers
2: 02 Lakers
3: 03 Spurs
4: 05 Spurs
5: 00 Lakers
6: 14 Spurs
7: 10 Lakers
8: 09 Lakers
9: 07 Spurs
10: 99 Spurs

No doubt Kobe's attitude has cost him some things in his career, but for his team to be disassembled and then come storming back for two straight rings means a lot.


He was more consistent on his play. His longevity is insane. Duncan before last year almost feel off a cliff for a fee years. He looked old, slow and not the same. He found the fountain of youth recently

how is kobes road harder when duncan and co. just beat the most stacked team in nba history almost twice. unlike kobe he wasn't playing along a top 5 goat.

Buckets, read the sig. You don't get to speak to me anymore

Hawkeye15
06-24-2014, 07:56 PM
You're the Kobephile that said he's better than Bird. Everyone is still reeling in laughter over that.

I ****ing hate Kobe, but he is better than Bird all time. For me at least.

KG2TB
06-24-2014, 08:00 PM
Did someone really just say the Heat were the most stacked team in NBA history? That's pretty funny.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-24-2014, 08:36 PM
You're the Kobephile that said he's better than Bird. Everyone is still reeling in laughter over that.

I ****ing hate Kobe, but he is better than Bird all time. For me at least.
There we go Hawk, I told you I wouldn't mind if you jumped over to the Lake show.

flea
06-24-2014, 08:44 PM
I ****ing hate Kobe, but he is better than Bird all time. For me at least.

Why, because of longevity? I can't think of anything Kobe does better than Bird except that. Maybe chasing perimeter guys in the open floor, but Bird's team defense is loads better and his size made up for having less foot speed. Neither was an ace defender, but most metrics like Bird better.

Offensively there is really no question - Bird blows him out of the water. And that's without considering how much better of a playmaker and rebounder Bird was than Kobe. Bird played in the hand-check and no superstar foul calls era (pre-Jordan) so you can spot Kobe those FTA, I still think Bird is easily better on the offensive end. eFG% is a better metric for comparing this across eras.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-24-2014, 08:46 PM
I ****ing hate Kobe, but he is better than Bird all time. For me at least.

Why, because of longevity? I can't think of anything Kobe does better than Bird except that. Maybe chasing perimeter guys in the open floor, but Bird's team defense is loads better and his size made up for having less foot speed. Neither was an ace defender, but most metrics like Bird better.

Offensively there is really no question - Bird blows him out of the water. And that's without considering how much better of a playmaker and rebounder Bird was than Kobe.

One of the worst post in the thread. You couldn't be more off here.

flea
06-24-2014, 08:47 PM
Thanks for your input, Kobephile. We're all more enlightened for it.

mrblisterdundee
06-24-2014, 08:56 PM
Duncan's arguably the greatest power forward of all time, whereas Kobe is obviously not the greatest shooting guard of all time; he's amassed twice as many MVP awards as Kobe; he's played nine more regular season games and 14 more playoff games than Kobe, despite entering the league a season later; and he's a better defensive presence. Kobe's only better if you think scoring five more points per game makes him better.

Update: Now that I think about it, the very fact that Duncan's spent his career in small market San Antonio rather than star mecca Los Angeles also makes his accomplishments inherently better.

RapOZo
06-24-2014, 11:36 PM
Duncan's career makes him the Best Power forward of all time, but kobe is 2nd best SG of all time, and that's second to MJ.
Top 4 scorer of all time, and still has chance to be 3rd.
Kobe's career went through several team rebuilds and coaches, while Duncan was more consistent, playing with same coach all his career, DRobinson for the first 5 years and then with the same 2 all-stars for over 10 years, so that's a disadvantage for Kobe when it comes to count playoffs game and overall record.

at 5 championships each and similar production, to me is a matter of preference, so I'll go with the elegance, flashiness and explosiveness of the mamba.

bucketss
06-24-2014, 11:43 PM
Thanks for your input, Kobephile. We're all more enlightened for it.

lool

bucketss
06-24-2014, 11:43 PM
that comment made me laugh im gonna sig it.

Randomfan
06-25-2014, 01:33 AM
Kobe because he is the heart, soul, and main producer of the lakers for a generation. Duncan was mostly an equal part of a 3 headed spurs monster for the majority of his career.

This. Just because they each have 5 rings doesnt mean they are comparable. Duncan has never been compared to or mentioned as possibly the G.O.A.T.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-25-2014, 02:23 AM
that comment made me laugh im gonna sig it.

Lol, still butthurt you slipped?

FlashBolt
06-25-2014, 02:47 AM
Duncan's arguably the greatest power forward of all time, whereas Kobe is obviously not the greatest shooting guard of all time; he's amassed twice as many MVP awards as Kobe; he's played nine more regular season games and 14 more playoff games than Kobe, despite entering the league a season later; and he's a better defensive presence. Kobe's only better if you think scoring five more points per game makes him better.

Update: Now that I think about it, the very fact that Duncan's spent his career in small market San Antonio rather than star mecca Los Angeles also makes his accomplishments inherently better.

1) Duncan isn't going to surpass MJ either so your argument with Kobe not being the greatest SG is totally irrelevant. No one comes close to surpassing MJ at the SG or PF. Center or PG, you might have an argument.

2) Twice as many MVP's? No one would dare say Nash>Kobe.

3) Duncan has played more regular season games and playoff games than Jordan, your point? Kobe has played 55000 minutes in the regular/playoff season. Duncan has only played 52000. Kobe has played more minutes and has to do much more of a load than Duncan. Duncan stopped being the first option years ago with Pop also sitting Duncan out sparingly to preserve his career. Kobe has always been the first option since Shaq's departure and has logged absurd minutes per game every season. Hard to compare their situations considering Pop is known for preserving players. Kobe never has that luxury. Btw, Kobe was INJURED because of heavy minutes. Out for an entire season and the playoffs, which would have logged at least 3500 more minutes to his career.

4) I'll give you better defensive presence but Kobe isn't necessarily known for his defense more-so than his offense. Why do you fail to acknowledge that Kobe is light years ahead of Duncan on offense?


6) Small market, big market. Who cares? Fail to see your argument.

flclfanman
06-25-2014, 03:56 AM
He's over shaq, and bird already. Most people outside this site agree. I'm not sure I've heard anyone say wilt or Russell are better than Kobe either.


This. Just because they each have 5 rings doesnt mean they are comparable. Duncan has never been compared to or mentioned as possibly the G.O.A.T.


The GOAT, no? But the greatest to play his position? He has a strong argument.

Kobe does not. He can score all the points he want, but as long as people can do a Google search of Michael Jordan, the former will always be second banana.

Still laughing at the Kobe>Bird thing. Gave me ****ing hiccups :laugh2:

savvy1803
06-25-2014, 02:08 PM
The answer to the question should be neither at this time as both players are still playing and not retired , inferring who had the better career would mean both careers are completed and final comparisons can be drawn .

rhd420
06-25-2014, 03:03 PM
for HERO ball fans - it's Kobe, hands down

BUT look at salary, team mates acquired and maintained ... heck look at young players being fostered (a large part of that is Pop as well) but statistically Duncan never cared about statistics

Kobe is in a environment with Los Angeles, you need flash and to a point greed to be marketable - but while it's made him a good "image" guy of the mamba, it Lakers benefits only happened when they got stars surrounding him and you wonder why those same stars want to leave, there is no benefit to playing with Kobe, your game diminishes ... you lose shots, minutes, etc.

The reverse is Duncan, perfect in San Antonio when healthy, wants players to take on more of a role knowing his physical limitations now due age but also over time Parker and Manu (also Pop as well) want to play with him - rather make financial sacrifices to win and that goes through the entire team.

I do agree - their careers aren't over, but Hero ball vs Team ball, I'd pick team ball all the time, boring but effective

Hotone1401
06-25-2014, 03:17 PM
The GOAT, no? But the greatest to play his position? He has a strong argument.

Kobe does not. He can score all the points he want, but as long as people can do a Google search of Michael Jordan, the former will always be second banana.

Still laughing at the Kobe>Bird thing. Gave me ****ing hiccups :laugh2:

How is Bird better than Kobe?? I've never heard that before.

As someone who grew watching Bird & Magic I give them a ton of credit for what they did for the game. They were both great players at the right time when the NBA needed it. They're both are a little bit overrated IMO. As far as their play on the court, I can't think of one thing Bird ever did better than Kobe.

NFLNBA
06-25-2014, 03:32 PM
I'm shocked to see Duncan ahead of Kobe in this forum. It just goes to show you the hate everyone has for the man. Both HOF players but Duncan last 5 years has averaged 16 & 9 and declining. Kobe before his injury was still a 25+ guy and number 1 option carrying his team. Parker has easy been best player on that team for last 5 years then throw in Manu with Leonard more recently. Duncan has been a great consistent quiet player and possibly the best PF ever while Kobe has done so much for the game, a lot more exciting, more dominate player. He receives all the attention and still to this day before the injury. Kobe with all the hate he gets has been crucial to the NBA. Id say Kobe hands down

Sad to see them both coming to a end. They are both last of the old greats!

flclfanman
06-25-2014, 04:08 PM
He's over shaq, and bird already. Most people outside this site agree. I'm not sure I've heard anyone say wilt or Russell are better than Kobe either.


How is Bird better than Kobe?? I've never heard that before.

As someone who grew watching Bird & Magic I give them a ton of credit for what they did for the game. They were both great players at the right time when the NBA needed it. They're both are a little bit overrated IMO. As far as their play on the court, I can't think of one thing Bird ever did better than Kobe.

Brought his team to 4 straight finals

Won 3 straight league MVPs

Better shooter and rebounder.

And more. I've heard no one say Kobe is better than Bird. Nobody.

sammyvine
06-25-2014, 04:12 PM
Duncan had the better career imo but Kobe still had an amazing career

rhd420
06-26-2014, 02:02 PM
I'm shocked to see Duncan ahead of Kobe in this forum. It just goes to show you the hate everyone has for the man. Both HOF players but Duncan last 5 years has averaged 16 & 9 and declining. Kobe before his injury was still a 25+ guy and number 1 option carrying his team. Parker has easy been best player on that team for last 5 years then throw in Manu with Leonard more recently. Duncan has been a great consistent quiet player and possibly the best PF ever while Kobe has done so much for the game, a lot more exciting, more dominate player. He receives all the attention and still to this day before the injury. Kobe with all the hate he gets has been crucial to the NBA. Id say Kobe hands down

Sad to see them both coming to a end. They are both last of the old greats!

I don't think it's hate - it's a preference between styles of Hero ball vs Team ball.

Imagine the legacy if Kobe did Duncan's deal ... guys like Shaq, Ariza, Fisher (his first free agency to the warriors) or Gasol (maybe Shaq would leave) but you have a player who puts the team above himself financially and they would have stayed like Manu or Parker and as a whole the Lakers organization would be far greater (noticed I said Lakers) as opposed to being a singular player

Greed is apparently good for most fans - but if you want championship, continuity and leadership - a player should always make his TEAM better (my opinion) and without question that's Duncan. Players want to play with Duncan - you take the same poll, not so much with Kobe so that should end this discussion

Hawkeye15
06-26-2014, 02:07 PM
Why, because of longevity? I can't think of anything Kobe does better than Bird except that. Maybe chasing perimeter guys in the open floor, but Bird's team defense is loads better and his size made up for having less foot speed. Neither was an ace defender, but most metrics like Bird better.

Offensively there is really no question - Bird blows him out of the water. And that's without considering how much better of a playmaker and rebounder Bird was than Kobe. Bird played in the hand-check and no superstar foul calls era (pre-Jordan) so you can spot Kobe those FTA, I still think Bird is easily better on the offensive end. eFG% is a better metric for comparing this across eras.

Longevity is a huge portion of why. And people act as if Bird played against stingy defenses. As good as he was, imagine if he dealt with the athletic wing defenders with size and speed of the past 10 years. Offensively, Bird has a slight advantage in certain areas, for sure. But we can't ignore, that at the end of the day, Bird's injuries, and off court issues that hurt his body, end up sinking him in the all time rankings compared to where he could have been. Whether we like it or not, Kobe's accolades and awards, outside the regular season MVP's, just beat up Bird's.

Kobe's career is better for me. Maybe not at the peak, but over the course of an entire career it sure is.

Hawkeye15
06-26-2014, 02:09 PM
Brought his team to 4 straight finals

Won 3 straight league MVPs

Better shooter and rebounder.

And more. I've heard no one say Kobe is better than Bird. Nobody.

I have said Kobe has the better career. Can't ignore the shortness of Bird's in comparison.

L8kers4life
06-26-2014, 03:03 PM
How is Bird better than Kobe?? I've never heard that before.

As someone who grew watching Bird & Magic I give them a ton of credit for what they did for the game. They were both great players at the right time when the NBA needed it. They're both are a little bit overrated IMO. As far as their play on the court, I can't think of one thing Bird ever did better than Kobe.

As someone who is as big of a kobe fan as anyone, your statement that you can't think of one thing Bird did better than Kobe, really makes us kobe fans look bad. Bird was a better shooter, passer, rebounder and teammate. 3 point shooting its no contest, Bird. Was one of the greatest 3 point shooter of all time.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-26-2014, 03:12 PM
I'm shocked to see Duncan ahead of Kobe in this forum. It just goes to show you the hate everyone has for the man. Both HOF players but Duncan last 5 years has averaged 16 & 9 and declining. Kobe before his injury was still a 25+ guy and number 1 option carrying his team. Parker has easy been best player on that team for last 5 years then throw in Manu with Leonard more recently. Duncan has been a great consistent quiet player and possibly the best PF ever while Kobe has done so much for the game, a lot more exciting, more dominate player. He receives all the attention and still to this day before the injury. Kobe with all the hate he gets has been crucial to the NBA. Id say Kobe hands down

Sad to see them both coming to a end. They are both last of the old greats!

Solid post.

flea
06-26-2014, 03:15 PM
Bird was also one of the greatest clutch players in history. Kobe, in spite of holding the label of "clutch" by ESPN talking heads, is not clutch - and in fact is pretty bad in the clutch.

jerellh528
06-26-2014, 03:22 PM
I'm shocked to see Duncan ahead of Kobe in this forum. It just goes to show you the hate everyone has for the man. Both HOF players but Duncan last 5 years has averaged 16 & 9 and declining. Kobe before his injury was still a 25+ guy and number 1 option carrying his team. Parker has easy been best player on that team for last 5 years then throw in Manu with Leonard more recently. Duncan has been a great consistent quiet player and possibly the best PF ever while Kobe has done so much for the game, a lot more exciting, more dominate player. He receives all the attention and still to this day before the injury. Kobe with all the hate he gets has been crucial to the NBA. Id say Kobe hands down

Sad to see them both coming to a end. They are both last of the old greats!

Solid post, great points. I agree

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-26-2014, 03:25 PM
Bird was also one of the greatest clutch players in history. Kobe, in spite of holding the lqabel of "clutch" by ESPN talking heads, is not clutch - and in fact is pretty bad in the clutch.

Sorry bud, but you're In a small group of people who have bird ahead of Kobe.

flea
06-26-2014, 03:38 PM
I doubt that. Maybe on an internet forum with 14 year olds who see Bird's broken-*** body at Pacers games and think, the ****? But Bird was Dirk before Dirk was Dirk - and he was better than Dirk.

Hell I think Dirk has a decent argument over Kobe. The longevity advantage is no longer there for Kobe, at the least. IMO they're both in the 10-20 range all time. I don't want to get accused as a hater, because I do realize how good Kobe is. But his weaknesses are so crippling, especially when you're trying to build a team.

jerellh528
06-26-2014, 03:56 PM
I doubt that. Maybe on an internet forum with 14 year olds who see Bird's broken-*** body at Pacers games and think, the ****? But Bird was Dirk before Dirk was Dirk - and he was better than Dirk.

Hell I think Dirk has a decent argument over Kobe. The longevity advantage is no longer there for Kobe, at the least. IMO they're both in the 10-20 range all time. I don't want to get accused as a hater, because I do realize how good Kobe is. But his weaknesses are so crippling, especially when you're trying to build a team.

Lololol

flea
06-26-2014, 04:09 PM
Lololol

I know you're a Kobephile so this post is more for the other posters who are interested in a discussion on it. Look at Dirk's win shares, he outpaces Kobe. I think they're an apt comparison considering Kobe had better teams over his career and much better teams during the championship run - and I've been very critical of using win shares willy-nilly in the past. They're both about equal defensively - solid above average for their position but not guys that are relied upon defensively. For both these reasons I think win shares are good to look at.

Then look at Dirk's postseason - he really steps it up for his career. He's a better offensive performer in the postseason than Kobe. More efficient, same amount of points, with 4% less USG rate. Really all Kobe has is rings over him.

In fairness, I'd probably take Kobe over Dirk. But with how bad of a teammate Kobe is, and how much he demands the ball to be effective, I would seriously think about giving myself every opportunity to change that answer.

jerellh528
06-26-2014, 04:11 PM
I know you're a Kobephile so this post is more for the other posters who are interested in a discussion on it. Look at Dirk's win shares, he outpaces Kobe. I think they're an apt comparison considering Kobe had better teams over his career and much better teams during the championship run - and I've been very critical of using win shares willy-nilly in the past.They're both about equal defensively - solid above average for their position but not guys that are relied upon defensively. For both these reasons I think win shares are good to look at.

Then look at Dirk's postseason - he really steps it up for his career. He's a better offensive performer in the postseason than Kobe. More efficient, same amount of points, with 4% less USG rate. Really all Kobe has is rings over him.

In fairness, I'd probably take Kobe over Dirk. But with how bad of a teammate Kobe is, and how much he demands the ball to be effective, I would seriously think about giving myself every opportunity to change that answer.

Lololol

jerellh528
06-26-2014, 04:11 PM
Not gunna reply to that guy, he's doing enough damage to himself on his own.

flea
06-26-2014, 04:14 PM
I think PSD just sees white guys and assumes they're not good defensively. Dirk has always been a nimble and high-IQ defender, even if he can get pushed around and needs a big center to bruise.

Hawkeye15
06-26-2014, 04:14 PM
Bird was also one of the greatest clutch players in history. Kobe, in spite of holding the label of "clutch" by ESPN talking heads, is not clutch - and in fact is pretty bad in the clutch.

again though, I am basing my personal ranking of Kobe over Bird very much so on the fact that Kobe was just a top player farrrrrrrrrrr longer.

Hawkeye15
06-26-2014, 04:16 PM
as I said earlier in the thread, my answer to this thread is Duncan, simply because a great 2-way big is more impactful than a perimeter player, unless your name is Jordan.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-26-2014, 04:37 PM
I doubt that. Maybe on an internet forum with 14 year olds who see Bird's broken-*** body at Pacers games and think, the ****? But Bird was Dirk before Dirk was Dirk - and he was better than Dirk.

Hell I think Dirk has a decent argument over Kobe. The longevity advantage is no longer there for Kobe, at the least. IMO they're both in the 10-20 range all time. I don't want to get accused as a hater, because I do realize how good Kobe is. But his weaknesses are so crippling, especially when you're trying to build a team.

One more idiotic post like this and you go on the wall of shame with buckets.

flea
06-26-2014, 04:40 PM
At least I defend my positions. The best you guys can do is navel-gaze about team accolades, ability to sell jerseys, facial expressions, and grit. Then attack other posters while you give each other internet high-fives.

Hawkeye15
06-26-2014, 04:47 PM
At least I defend my positions. The best you guys can do is navel-gaze about team accolades, ability to sell jerseys, facial expressions, and grit. Then attack other posters while you give each other internet high-fives.

you have defended them, but why on earth are you going back and forth with "you know who" above you?

That is like arguing with a pissed off woman. You ain't winning, no matter how sound and rational your case may be.

Hawkeye15
06-26-2014, 04:49 PM
I think PSD just sees white guys and assumes they're not good defensively. Dirk has always been a nimble and high-IQ defender, even if he can get pushed around and needs a big center to bruise.

in Dirk's case, he was awful defensively early, and was never able to shake that label from most fans, despite becoming at least an average defender, and a decent one in a team defensive scenario. It's one of those reputations that always seems to follow you no matter what changes you make for the better or worse.

****, Bobby Jones was white, and a total beast defender haha

Purch
06-26-2014, 04:52 PM
Duncan, I had him above Kobe for the past 2 years, so this year just makes the case stronger

Jamiecballer
06-26-2014, 04:53 PM
Despite somewhat even achievements Duncan adds way more to the culture and leadership of an organization - with Kobe his impact basically ends at his own level of play. Duncan handily.

If we are just looking at accomplishments though, they are pretty close, IMO. i'd give a small advantage to Duncan for the remarkable consistency of the 50+ win seasons.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-26-2014, 06:05 PM
At least I defend my positions. The best you guys can do is navel-gaze about team accolades, ability to sell jerseys, facial expressions, and grit. Then attack other posters while you give each other internet high-fives.

you have defended them, but why on earth are you going back and forth with "you know who" above you?

That is like arguing with a pissed off woman. You ain't winning, no matter how sound and rational your case may be.

In glad you finally joined the Laker nation. You see, it's not so bad to root for Kobe.

SoFreshNsoClean
06-26-2014, 11:17 PM
gotta hand it to Kobe. His teams faced MUCH tougher competition overall in the postseason then SA. Spurs have historically seemed to vanish whenever talented teams are healthy and do what they are supposed to do. No SA hate intended at all... they are a top notch franchise but I feel they lucked out a few times including this year with the ibaka injury

kdspurman
06-27-2014, 09:43 AM
gotta hand it to Kobe. His teams faced MUCH tougher competition overall in the postseason then SA. Spurs have historically seemed to vanish whenever talented teams are healthy and do what they are supposed to do. No SA hate intended at all... they are a top notch franchise but I feel they lucked out a few times including this year with the ibaka injury

They both played in the west. To say 1 had much tougher competition vs the other is just silly.

& I'm not sure what you mean by vanish whenever talented teams are healthy, i can name more good/dangerous/healthy teams that they have beaten in the last 17 years than cases of being "lucky". Which BTW, luck is a big part of the game. (See Fisher in 04)

And despite the Ibaka injury this year, he came back and made a huge difference in games 3/4. Once Pop changed his lineup/strategy, it made OKC play totally differently. I'd attribute them to winning that series to great coaching by Pop, and lack of awareness/coaching by Brooks.

Pablonovi
06-27-2014, 10:20 PM
in Dirk's case, he was awful defensively early, and was never able to shake that label from most fans, despite becoming at least an average defender, and a decent one in a team defensive scenario. It's one of those reputations that always seems to follow you no matter what changes you make for the better or worse.

****, Bobby Jones was white, and a total beast defender haha

Hey Hawk,
Bobby Jones was pure, ferocious D. (For many years too).
Otoh, there was that Play-Off series against Dr. J. where the Doc just completely humbled him. But the ABA Dr J was truly remarkable - just totally-unstoppable.

Hawkeye15
06-27-2014, 10:26 PM
gotta hand it to Kobe. His teams faced MUCH tougher competition overall in the postseason then SA. Spurs have historically seemed to vanish whenever talented teams are healthy and do what they are supposed to do. No SA hate intended at all... they are a top notch franchise but I feel they lucked out a few times including this year with the ibaka injury

they are both in the west, how the hell has the Lakers path been any tougher?

Pablonovi
06-27-2014, 10:27 PM
They both played in the west. To say 1 had much tougher competition vs the other is just silly.

& I'm not sure what you mean by vanish whenever talented teams are healthy, i can name more good/dangerous/healthy teams that they have beaten in the last 17 years than cases of being "lucky". Which BTW, luck is a big part of the game. (See Fisher in 04)

And despite the Ibaka injury this year, he came back and made a huge difference in games 3/4. Once Pop changed his lineup/strategy, it made OKC play totally differently. I'd attribute them to winning that series to great coaching by Pop, and lack of awareness/coaching by Brooks.

Hey KD,
For me, there's just no getting around the utter mastery that Pop has been exercising and perfecting. For me, HE is the Spurs Play-Off MVP (partially because nobody really stood out clearly over the others). The trouncing they put on the HEAT was what I call "Spurfection"; because ON BOTH SIDES OF THE BALL, the game plan and the execution were impeccable. They made everybody but LeBron seem old & cold.

About the Western Conference. I've run the numbers regarding Conference vs Conference. And the West has totally dominated the East for the entirety of the 2000's (2000-2014). That's 15 years of West teams having to work really hard just to make the Play-Offs; and then even harder to try to make it thru to the Finals. More often than not, the true Finals has been the WCF. (Same for the Spurs as for the Lakers).

Hawkeye15
06-27-2014, 10:32 PM
Hey Hawk,
Bobby Jones was pure, ferocious D. (For many years too).
Otoh, there was that Play-Off series against Dr. J. where the Doc just completely humbled him. But the ABA Dr J was truly remarkable - just totally-unstoppable.

The ABA was also much more wide open, Doc killed everyone haha.

If you have ever been to the Basketball HOF in Springfield, at least when I went, back in the late 90's, the theater room showed nothing but ABA highlights/stories. I sat in there for 3 hours until my Dad forced me to leave. And then he explained that Connie Hawkins was kicked out of the NCAA before he could even play a game for my beloved Hawkeyes.

Started to look up a ton of ABA stuff after that.

Jones was an excellent defender in the NBA years. Tough as nails, athletic, and physical to a point. He was also versatile, defending a couple of different positions well.

superkegger
06-28-2014, 02:34 PM
It's a tough call. Both have had unbelievable careers, and I don't think either is done yet. Both go about their business in completely different manners and play different positions.

Where I an NBA GM, and I you have me the choice to take one of them and build my team around them, considering what they gave me throughout their careers, I would probably take Duncan.

If I were an NBA owner, and you gave me the choice, I'd probably take Kobe.

Both are probably top 10 all time players, and really, it's splitting hairs trying to say which had the more distinguished career.

Bruno
06-28-2014, 05:24 PM
Kobe because he is the heart, soul, and main producer of the lakers for a generation. Duncan was mostly an equal part of a 3 headed spurs monster for the majority of his career.

Duncans impact was way bigger than Parker and Ginoblis. even Leonards this post-season as well (overall not just counting the finals).

Bruno
06-28-2014, 05:25 PM
They both played in the west. To say 1 had much tougher competition vs the other is just silly.

& I'm not sure what you mean by vanish whenever talented teams are healthy, i can name more good/dangerous/healthy teams that they have beaten in the last 17 years than cases of being "lucky". Which BTW, luck is a big part of the game. (See Fisher in 04)

And despite the Ibaka injury this year, he came back and made a huge difference in games 3/4. Once Pop changed his lineup/strategy, it made OKC play totally differently. I'd attribute them to winning that series to great coaching by Pop, and lack of awareness/coaching by Brooks.

i agree although going up 2-0 when Ibaka was injured was instrumental.

Bruno
06-28-2014, 05:26 PM
as I said earlier in the thread, my answer to this thread is Duncan, simply because a great 2-way big is more impactful than a perimeter player, unless your name is Jordan.

i've come to this conclusion too Hawk.

that goes for Magic, Bird and James as of today as well, imo.

Hawkeye15
06-28-2014, 05:50 PM
i've come to this conclusion too Hawk.

that goes for Magic, Bird and James as of today as well, imo.

I think LeBron could enter that top 3-4 discussion by career end, but he isn't near there yet. But two way bigs litter my top 10 ever, with just a few perimeter players in there.

kdspurman
06-28-2014, 09:04 PM
i agree although going up 2-0 when Ibaka was injured was instrumental.

For sure. Maybe they split in SA, and Pop goes with starting Diaw/Bonner like in Game 3/4 instead of waiting till Game 5 and it's still 2-2 going into Game 5. Too many what if's, but it seemed Pop may have had that in his back pocket for worst case scenario. OKC showed no game plan to respond to the Spurs putting 4 shooters around out there with Duncan/Splitter at the 5.

amos1er
06-28-2014, 09:07 PM
For sure. Maybe they split in SA, and Pop goes with starting Diaw/Bonner like in Game 3/4 instead of waiting till Game 5 and it's still 2-2 going into Game 5. Too many what if's, but it seemed Pop may have had that in his back pocket for worst case scenario. OKC showed no game plan to respond to the Spurs putting 4 shooters around out there with Duncan/Splitter at the 5.

Great retort. A very foolish point in the first place, but you shot it down quite well. If we want to bring up "what ifs", then why not bring up game 6 of the 2012 WCF and say that if not for the terrible officiating, San Antonio could have likely won it all that year too.

Hawkeye15
06-28-2014, 09:17 PM
Great retort. A very foolish point in the first place, but you shot it down quite well. If we want to bring up "what ifs", then why not bring up game 6 of the 2012 WCF and say that if not for the terrible officiating, San Antonio could have likely won it all that year too.

they win if Pops doesn't idiotically try to get cute with his substitutions to close that game dude. The officiating had nothing to do with it.

kdspurman
06-28-2014, 11:19 PM
they win if Pops doesn't idiotically try to get cute with his substitutions to close that game dude. The officiating had nothing to do with it.

A little harsh, the way the ball bounced to Miami, I really don't think it would have mattered who was out there. Just one of those things where it went Miami's way.

I feel like people are way too tough on Pop for that one lol. If it works out, he's a genius/mastermind. Just like starting Matt freakin' Bonner in the WCF against one of the more athletic teams in the league, if not the most.

SILVER SEAVER
06-29-2014, 01:16 AM
Duncan is the best PF in league history. 5/6 in Finals appearances and quite possibly should be 6/6 and really hasn't played with any elite superstars with the exception of Robinson at the end of his career. He's still the best at this point in his career. Kobe is a an all-time great but really can't be considered the best at his position and he and his resume, the loss to the Pistons and the game 7 39 point loss to the Celtics. He had to play with a dominant big man to get his 5 rings. Not saying Duncan didn't play with good players like Parker and Ginobli but he carried the load for most of his career.

FlashBolt
06-29-2014, 03:53 AM
Duncan is the best PF in league history. 5/6 in Finals appearances and quite possibly should be 6/6 and really hasn't played with any elite superstars with the exception of Robinson at the end of his career. He's still the best at this point in his career. Kobe is a an all-time great but really can't be considered the best at his position and he and his resume, the loss to the Pistons and the game 7 39 point loss to the Celtics. He had to play with a dominant big man to get his 5 rings. Not saying Duncan didn't play with good players like Parker and Ginobli but he carried the load for most of his career.

1) 5/6 < 5/7 IMO just based on the fact that Kobe has made it to more finals appearances. Why should a player be penalized for losing an NBA finals whereas someone who loses in the first round isn't?

2) That isn't fair to say Duncan never played with any elite superstars other than Robinson. Ginobili was considered a top 15 player and Parker is a top 10 player in his own right. Pack that up with Pop and a solid cast of teammates his entire career, he has done well. Duncan's longevity is due to Pop knowing how to rest his players and prolong their career. Look at Manu as an extra example. Just plenty of solid teammates throughout Duncan's career. Kobe played with Shaq, Phil, Gasol, but his cast of players overall does not compare to Duncan's.

3) Kobe has more of a load to work at than Duncan. Duncan doesn't handle the ball 24/7. Kobe has never played with an elite PG who can bring the ball up sufficiently like a PG such as Parker. The pressure is on Kobe to receive more attention from defenders than Duncan ever experienced. No question, Kobe exerts more energy than Duncan has ever had to throughout his career.

4) Duncan is the greatest PF, Kobe is the second greatest SG. Behind who? Jordan. Duncan vs Jordan, Jordan wins. So I don't get what kind of argument can be made with such logic. I mean we're talking about Jordan here. Take positions out, he's still the greatest player regardless or which position.

5) MVP, FMVP, All Star MVP, countless ALL NBA/ DEFENSIVE, scoring records, streak records. Kobe has done everything the game has offered just as Duncan has as well. I don't know what resume you are speaking of because they both collectively have a huge sack of accolades. I actually think Kobe has more achievements than Duncan if you consider the totality of their impact.

6) Kobe has lost but he has won as well. Not every player wins everything. Pointing out two or three losses out of 1465 games is miniscule. I can point out 10 games in which Jordan stunk.

7) I really hate to say Duncan didn't carry the load despite him being their centerpiece since almost two decades but he did not carry the load. Spurs system doesn't require any one single player to carry the load. If each player on that team does their part, they are most likely going to win even if Duncan, Parker, or Gino have bad games. He used to carry the load during his earlier days before Parker/Gino were there but let's not pretend that he has been carrying them the past decade. It was all a total group effort.

All in all, can't go wrong with either. I choose Kobe, though. The fact that he has to do more and means more to the NBA as a player and individual is just hard to ignore. His lasting impact on the game and influence on others puts him right behind MJ IMO in terms of impact on the NBA. Who will the game miss more when they are both gone? Kobe. Not a popularity contest but if you're talking about career, Kobe definitely had more of an imprint.

cahawk
06-29-2014, 04:36 AM
Duncan!
kobe salary is more than Duncan, Parker & Ginobilli.
And kobe is a hog on fga's the same way, not making teammates better.
Gee, I wonder why LAkers can't rebuild? kobe bloated salary!

jerellh528
06-29-2014, 04:47 AM
1) 5/6 < 5/7 IMO just based on the fact that Kobe has made it to more finals appearances. Why should a player be penalized for losing an NBA finals whereas someone who loses in the first round isn't?

2) That isn't fair to say Duncan never played with any elite superstars other than Robinson. Ginobili was considered a top 15 player and Parker is a top 10 player in his own right. Pack that up with Pop and a solid cast of teammates his entire career, he has done well. Duncan's longevity is due to Pop knowing how to rest his players and prolong their career. Look at Manu as an extra example. Just plenty of solid teammates throughout Duncan's career. Kobe played with Shaq, Phil, Gasol, but his cast of players overall does not compare to Duncan's.

3) Kobe has more of a load to work at than Duncan. Duncan doesn't handle the ball 24/7. Kobe has never played with an elite PG who can bring the ball up sufficiently like a PG such as Parker. The pressure is on Kobe to receive more attention from defenders than Duncan ever experienced. No question, Kobe exerts more energy than Duncan has ever had to throughout his career.

4) Duncan is the greatest PF, Kobe is the second greatest SG. Behind who? Jordan. Duncan vs Jordan, Jordan wins. So I don't get what kind of argument can be made with such logic. I mean we're talking about Jordan here. Take positions out, he's still the greatest player regardless or which position.

5) MVP, FMVP, All Star MVP, countless ALL NBA/ DEFENSIVE, scoring records, streak records. Kobe has done everything the game has offered just as Duncan has as well. I don't know what resume you are speaking of because they both collectively have a huge sack of accolades. I actually think Kobe has more achievements than Duncan if you consider the totality of their impact.

6) Kobe has lost but he has won as well. Not every player wins everything. Pointing out two or three losses out of 1465 games is miniscule. I can point out 10 games in which Jordan stunk.

7) I really hate to say Duncan didn't carry the load despite him being their centerpiece since almost two decades but he did not carry the load. Spurs system doesn't require any one single player to carry the load. If each player on that team does their part, they are most likely going to win even if Duncan, Parker, or Gino have bad games. He used to carry the load during his earlier days before Parker/Gino were there but let's not pretend that he has been carrying them the past decade. It was all a total group effort.

All in all, can't go wrong with either. I choose Kobe, though. The fact that he has to do more and means more to the NBA as a player and individual is just hard to ignore. His lasting impact on the game and influence on others puts him right behind MJ IMO in terms of impact on the NBA. Who will the game miss more when they are both gone? Kobe. Not a popularity contest but if you're talking about career, Kobe definitely had more of an imprint.

Nice response, I wish I had the kind of patience to write out responses like this. It would make me a better poster.

Pablonovi
06-29-2014, 03:21 PM
1) 5/6 < 5/7 IMO just based on the fact that Kobe has made it to more finals appearances. Why should a player be penalized for losing an NBA finals whereas someone who loses in the first round isn't?

2) That isn't fair to say Duncan never played with any elite superstars other than Robinson. Ginobili was considered a top 15 player and Parker is a top 10 player in his own right. Pack that up with Pop and a solid cast of teammates his entire career, he has done well. Duncan's longevity is due to Pop knowing how to rest his players and prolong their career. Look at Manu as an extra example. Just plenty of solid teammates throughout Duncan's career. Kobe played with Shaq, Phil, Gasol, but his cast of players overall does not compare to Duncan's.

3) Kobe has more of a load to work at than Duncan. Duncan doesn't handle the ball 24/7. Kobe has never played with an elite PG who can bring the ball up sufficiently like a PG such as Parker. The pressure is on Kobe to receive more attention from defenders than Duncan ever experienced. No question, Kobe exerts more energy than Duncan has ever had to throughout his career.

4) Duncan is the greatest PF, Kobe is the second greatest SG. Behind who? Jordan. Duncan vs Jordan, Jordan wins. So I don't get what kind of argument can be made with such logic. I mean we're talking about Jordan here. Take positions out, he's still the greatest player regardless or which position.

5) MVP, FMVP, All Star MVP, countless ALL NBA/ DEFENSIVE, scoring records, streak records. Kobe has done everything the game has offered just as Duncan has as well. I don't know what resume you are speaking of because they both collectively have a huge sack of accolades. I actually think Kobe has more achievements than Duncan if you consider the totality of their impact.

6) Kobe has lost but he has won as well. Not every player wins everything. Pointing out two or three losses out of 1465 games is miniscule. I can point out 10 games in which Jordan stunk.

7) I really hate to say Duncan didn't carry the load despite him being their centerpiece since almost two decades but he did not carry the load. Spurs system doesn't require any one single player to carry the load. If each player on that team does their part, they are most likely going to win even if Duncan, Parker, or Gino have bad games. He used to carry the load during his earlier days before Parker/Gino were there but let's not pretend that he has been carrying them the past decade. It was all a total group effort.

All in all, can't go wrong with either. I choose Kobe, though. The fact that he has to do more and means more to the NBA as a player and individual is just hard to ignore. His lasting impact on the game and influence on others puts him right behind MJ IMO in terms of impact on the NBA. Who will the game miss more when they are both gone? Kobe. Not a popularity contest but if you're talking about career, Kobe definitely had more of an imprint.

Hey FB,
Excellent post.
I've got GOAT #s 6-8: Kobe, Shaq & TD (in that order "barely")
Shaq's PEAK kills the other two; but the other two have had incredibly long PRIMEs; that for me puts all 3 just about even. So then for me it does come down to things like what you pointed out: Kobe carrying (much) more of the load than TD. I can "live with" any order for the three of them.

I'm hoping that both TD & Kobe still have a good deal more to impress us with in the coming year(s); making the debate between them (and Shaq) even tougher to decide.

btw, I've got KAJ over MJ. His PEAK (1-Yr, 3-Yr, 5-Yr) was superior to MJ's; his PRIME was 50% longer; he had 67% more Finals *; he had the most unique and unstoppable shot, the Sky Hook; he dominated his position for his first 17 years against far better competition than MJ did during his 15 scattered years.

* I could not agree more with your assertion that it's better to lose in the Finals than to lose in earlier rounds. I find it stunning that most posters I've seen address this here on PSD disagree with something that seems so evidently clear.

Let's Compare their best 10 Play-Off Years:
KAJ: 6-4 ALL IN the Finals
MJ 6-0 In the Finals PLUS 4 losses BEFOFE even getting to the Finals.

beliges
06-29-2014, 04:35 PM
Kobe was simply better for a much longer period of time. Hard to go against kobe here but both are top 7 players to ever play the game so it's pretty much more about who one personally likes at this point.

Nick O
06-29-2014, 04:41 PM
wow tough. actually a solid comparison... pretty damn close right now. but Duncan is gonna make the playoffs and go pretty deep (maybe even win) again next year. Kobe may never make the playoffs again so. 2 years ago. Id say Kobe, right now id say its even. 2-3 years from now. unless something magical happens for kobe im going with Tim

kdspurman
06-29-2014, 08:01 PM
1) 5/6 < 5/7 IMO just based on the fact that Kobe has made it to more finals appearances. Why should a player be penalized for losing an NBA finals whereas someone who loses in the first round isn't? Getting to the finals 7 times is definitely an advantage over 6. No argument there. though I will say Duncan never missing the playoffs should stand for something as well. While some see it as a failure to not win it all (which is fair) never missing the playoffs for 17 straight years is very impressive.

2) That isn't fair to say Duncan never played with any elite superstars other than Robinson. Ginobili was considered a top 15 player and Parker is a top 10 player in his own right. Pack that up with Pop and a solid cast of teammates his entire career, he has done well. Duncan's longevity is due to Pop knowing how to rest his players and prolong their career. Look at Manu as an extra example. Just plenty of solid teammates throughout Duncan's career. Kobe played with Shaq, Phil, Gasol, but his cast of players overall does not compare to Duncan's. Ginobili and Parker in the early 2000's were not what they were in their primes. Duncan never had a 2nd superstar next to him like Kobe did. That's just a fact, if you look at Duncan's numbers from the 03 finals and playoffs, he was the guy. He carried them that year and even in 99, he didn't exactly team up with a prime David Robinson. It took Manu/Parker several years to develop to the confident players we've seen them to be.


3) Kobe has more of a load to work at than Duncan. Duncan doesn't handle the ball 24/7. Kobe has never played with an elite PG who can bring the ball up sufficiently like a PG such as Parker. The pressure is on Kobe to receive more attention from defenders than Duncan ever experienced. No question, Kobe exerts more energy than Duncan has ever had to throughout his career. They are different positions, so it's not even a fair comparison. But while Kobe shared the bigger offensive load, you can't deny the fact that Duncan in his early years was the Spurs offense, while also anchoring their defense. Which is why he was All NBA & All Defense from his rookie season, and I think 13-14 years consecutively after that.

4) Duncan is the greatest PF, Kobe is the second greatest SG. Behind who? Jordan. Duncan vs Jordan, Jordan wins. So I don't get what kind of argument can be made with such logic. I mean we're talking about Jordan here. Take positions out, he's still the greatest player regardless or which position. Don't really understand this comparison, but neither guys are on Jordan's level

5) MVP, FMVP, All Star MVP, countless ALL NBA/ DEFENSIVE, scoring records, streak records. Kobe has done everything the game has offered just as Duncan has as well. I don't know what resume you are speaking of because they both collectively have a huge sack of accolades. I actually think Kobe has more achievements than Duncan if you consider the totality of their impact. I don't know if Kobe has more achievements aside from points scored. Both have accomplished a ton though. And to say Kobe has done everything the game has offered as well as Duncan is just not true. Duncan consistently was great on the defensive end. Kobe had his moments, but he was not as defensively oriented as Duncan was on a consistent basis

6) Kobe has lost but he has won as well. Not every player wins everything. Pointing out two or three losses out of 1465 games is miniscule. I can point out 10 games in which Jordan stunk. Agreed.

7) I really hate to say Duncan didn't carry the load despite him being their centerpiece since almost two decades but he did not carry the load. Spurs system doesn't require any one single player to carry the load. If each player on that team does their part, they are most likely going to win even if Duncan, Parker, or Gino have bad games. He used to carry the load during his earlier days before Parker/Gino were there but let's not pretend that he has been carrying them the past decade. It was all a total group effort. In recent years? Sure. But go back and watch Duncan's first 10 years or so. "4 Down" They ran that play to death. And that play was "dump the ball to TD in the post and let him go to work, or get doubled and find a shooter". He was the Spurs offense for a long time. People see the Spurs how they operate now and forget Duncan's prime years. You should definitely look up some older clips/games of him.

All in all, can't go wrong with either. I choose Kobe, though. The fact that he has to do more and means more to the NBA as a player and individual is just hard to ignore. His lasting impact on the game and influence on others puts him right behind MJ IMO in terms of impact on the NBA. Who will the game miss more when they are both gone? Kobe. Not a popularity contest but if you're talking about career, Kobe definitely had more of an imprint. Kobe means more to the NBA simply because of his popularity, but that doesn't mean he's had a greater impact on the game. Guards like Kobe seem to come around more than a 2 way dominant big like Duncan. Who is stable, team-first, and a guy who will always have your team in contention. I don't personally like the argument because they are 2 different positions, but I will definitely enjoy a nice debate, and clarifying any information that could be off.

Responses in red.

Pablonovi
06-30-2014, 06:54 AM
Originally Posted by FlashBolt View Post

1) 5/6 < 5/7 IMO just based on the fact that Kobe has made it to more finals appearances. Why should a player be penalized for losing an NBA finals whereas someone who loses in the first round isn't? Getting to the finals 7 times is definitely an advantage over 6. No argument there. though I will say Duncan never missing the playoffs should stand for something as well. While some see it as a failure to not win it all (which is fair) never missing the playoffs for 17 straight years is very impressive.

2) That isn't fair to say Duncan never played with any elite superstars other than Robinson. Ginobili was considered a top 15 player and Parker is a top 10 player in his own right. Pack that up with Pop and a solid cast of teammates his entire career, he has done well. Duncan's longevity is due to Pop knowing how to rest his players and prolong their career. Look at Manu as an extra example. Just plenty of solid teammates throughout Duncan's career. Kobe played with Shaq, Phil, Gasol, but his cast of players overall does not compare to Duncan's. Ginobili and Parker in the early 2000's were not what they were in their primes. Duncan never had a 2nd superstar next to him like Kobe did. That's just a fact, if you look at Duncan's numbers from the 03 finals and playoffs, he was the guy. He carried them that year and even in 99, he didn't exactly team up with a prime David Robinson. It took Manu/Parker several years to develop to the confident players we've seen them to be.


3) Kobe has more of a load to work at than Duncan. Duncan doesn't handle the ball 24/7. Kobe has never played with an elite PG who can bring the ball up sufficiently like a PG such as Parker. The pressure is on Kobe to receive more attention from defenders than Duncan ever experienced. No question, Kobe exerts more energy than Duncan has ever had to throughout his career. They are different positions, so it's not even a fair comparison. But while Kobe shared the bigger offensive load, you can't deny the fact that Duncan in his early years was the Spurs offense, while also anchoring their defense. Which is why he was All NBA & All Defense from his rookie season, and I think 13-14 years consecutively after that.

4) Duncan is the greatest PF, Kobe is the second greatest SG. Behind who? Jordan. Duncan vs Jordan, Jordan wins. So I don't get what kind of argument can be made with such logic. I mean we're talking about Jordan here. Take positions out, he's still the greatest player regardless or which position. Don't really understand this comparison, but neither guys are on Jordan's level

5) MVP, FMVP, All Star MVP, countless ALL NBA/ DEFENSIVE, scoring records, streak records. Kobe has done everything the game has offered just as Duncan has as well. I don't know what resume you are speaking of because they both collectively have a huge sack of accolades. I actually think Kobe has more achievements than Duncan if you consider the totality of their impact. I don't know if Kobe has more achievements aside from points scored. Both have accomplished a ton though. And to say Kobe has done everything the game has offered as well as Duncan is just not true. Duncan consistently was great on the defensive end. Kobe had his moments, but he was not as defensively oriented as Duncan was on a consistent basis

6) Kobe has lost but he has won as well. Not every player wins everything. Pointing out two or three losses out of 1465 games is miniscule. I can point out 10 games in which Jordan stunk. Agreed.

7) I really hate to say Duncan didn't carry the load despite him being their centerpiece since almost two decades but he did not carry the load. Spurs system doesn't require any one single player to carry the load. If each player on that team does their part, they are most likely going to win even if Duncan, Parker, or Gino have bad games. He used to carry the load during his earlier days before Parker/Gino were there but let's not pretend that he has been carrying them the past decade. It was all a total group effort. In recent years? Sure. But go back and watch Duncan's first 10 years or so. "4 Down" They ran that play to death. And that play was "dump the ball to TD in the post and let him go to work, or get doubled and find a shooter". He was the Spurs offense for a long time. People see the Spurs how they operate now and forget Duncan's prime years. You should definitely look up some older clips/games of him.

All in all, can't go wrong with either. I choose Kobe, though. The fact that he has to do more and means more to the NBA as a player and individual is just hard to ignore. His lasting impact on the game and influence on others puts him right behind MJ IMO in terms of impact on the NBA. Who will the game miss more when they are both gone? Kobe. Not a popularity contest but if you're talking about career, Kobe definitely had more of an imprint. Kobe means more to the NBA simply because of his popularity, but that doesn't mean he's had a greater impact on the game. Guards like Kobe seem to come around more than a 2 way dominant big like Duncan. Who is stable, team-first, and a guy who will always have your team in contention. I don't personally like the argument because they are 2 different positions, but I will definitely enjoy a nice debate, and clarifying any information that could be off.

I Nominate This KDspurman Post As A Fine Example Of Something Exemplary !
Hey KD,
This post of yours is just OUTSTANDING.
You do all of the following and quite well:

1) Respond to specifics with specifics;

2) Express your points very well;

3) Help further clarify things (agreements, disagreements, further areas to explore); and

4) Do all that with the sweetest style.

KUDOS Dude! :clap::cheers::speechless:

P.S. You get a "Half A Bonus Point" because I agree with most of your points. And I AM the (old) guy :oldguy: that awards the Half-Bonus Points!, so there!

FlashBolt
06-30-2014, 01:36 PM
Responses in red.

1) Won't deny that there either. Duncan never missing the playoffs is amazing.

2) Those were for the first two rings which I already mentioned that the past decade, he wasn't really carrying that heavy a load anymore. Tony Parker and Gino were very much in their prime beginning 2004. That's a decade of not necessarily carrying the load.

3) He did have to carry the offensive load for PART of his career but a SG will always have more pressure on them than anyone other than a PG imo. Of course, you have to talk about which players but the caliber of Kobe and Duncan, I think more coaches would leave Duncan open than Kobe. Kobe has to run the ball up and create their offense most of the time. Who was his PG for his entire career? Fisher and? Not really good PG's. I don't recall Duncan having to run the ball up and create offense for his teammates constantly.

4) Yup.

5) Clearly they have different accomplishments with Duncan being better defensively and Kobe being better offensively. My mistake to not clarify more evidently. I was just representing the fact that both players in their own right have had a lot of accomplishments so this achievement argument is a toss-up. I only have Kobe because he's won so much during his career. Not a knock on Duncan - he won his fair share.

6) Refer to post 2. I acknowledged that he carried the load early in his career. The past decade? Not so much carrying. TP was a top 10 player at one point during this decade and some still have him on that list. He finished what in MVP voting? Gino sixth-man of the year. Was top 15 at one point. Bruce Bowen, amazing defender. Popovich, amazing coach and my GOAT coach. Kuwai Leonard becoming a stud. The system works really well for Duncan the past decade and you can see it's mainly because of Popovich knowing how to play his roster to the fullest abilities.

7) Yeah, I definitely respect your argument. No debating here from me on who's better - just an opinion of mine. While Kobe is more popular, he's also had a better impact on NBA and for his team. Who do Lakers run to without Kobe? Spurs could have retired Duncan long ago and still have some solid pieces to run to. I don't see the Lakers running their offense on Smush Parker, Lamar Odom, Pau Gasol, and any other crappy talent he had after Shaq left. Kobe's impact on the game definitely has a lot to do with it. He leaves the game with fans representing Kobe more than any other player of his generation. Jordan had that reputation, Kobe will have one too. Of course, this has nothing to do with him being on the court but just a little thought.

XpLiCiTT
06-30-2014, 01:49 PM
Duncan had the better career. Kobe is just much more popular of a player, but they're very close all time. I'd give Duncan the nod after him getting his 5th ring. So much consistency and longevity.

EDIT: Just read through this thread a bit and saw things like, "The Heat are the most stacked team of all time" and "Kobe is better than Bird".hahaha talk about stupidity, jesus christ.

Chronz
06-30-2014, 02:56 PM
This shouldn't be that hard, they both entered around the same time, Kobe developed in the NBA, Duncan in College. By age 21, both were stars and those are the years that matter most.


Year by year, Duncan was the better player from 21-30. After age 30, Duncan had more ups and downs, whereas Kobe was more consistent.


Someone show me a stretch in their careers where Kobe was the better player because Im not seeing how this is even an argument. You cant even use the longevity argument IMO. Cant use the production argument, cant use the rings argument. Take all that away and what does Kobe have left?

flclfanman
06-30-2014, 03:16 PM
This shouldn't be that hard, they both entered around the same time, Kobe developed in the NBA, Duncan in College. By age 21, both were stars and those are the years that matter most.


Year by year, Duncan was the better player from 21-30. After age 30, Duncan had more ups and downs, whereas Kobe was more consistent.


Someone show me a stretch in their careers where Kobe was the better player because Im not seeing how this is even an argument. You cant even use the longevity argument IMO. Cant use the production argument, cant use the rings argument. Take all that away and what does Kobe have left?

Ummm...3 ASG MVPs? :shrug: :laugh2:

Pablonovi
07-02-2014, 01:35 AM
This shouldn't be that hard, they both entered around the same time, Kobe developed in the NBA, Duncan in College. By age 21, both were stars and those are the years that matter most.


Year by year, Duncan was the better player from 21-30. After age 30, Duncan had more ups and downs, whereas Kobe was more consistent.


Someone show me a stretch in their careers where Kobe was the better player because Im not seeing how this is even an argument. You cant even use the longevity argument IMO. Cant use the production argument, cant use the rings argument. Take all that away and what does Kobe have left?

Hey High Horse,
I've got them both in the GOAT #6-8 range (along with Shaq); so, naturally, it's like splitting hairs for me.
Therefore, I could certainly "live" with having TD ahead of Kobe. Personally, I have Kobe ahead of TD. I think he did "more with less" the years the Lakers sucked; and I think he did at least as much as TD in contributing to their team's respective Play-Off Success.

I'm not so sure that TD was the better player throughout those first 10 years; and I think Kobe's consistency since then does beat TD's "up and down-ish" 2nd half of his career.

If these don't appear to be very strong arguments, there's good reason: I don't feel that strongly about this.

Bostonjorge
07-02-2014, 02:25 AM
Kobe has owned Duncan in the head to head playoff matchup's.

1999:

Spurs sweep

Kobe ave- 21ppg, 6rpg, 3apg

Duncan- 29ppg,10rpg,3apg

2001:

Lakers sweep

Kobe ave- 33ppg,7rpg, 7apg,

Duncan- 23ppg, 12rpg, 4apg,

2002:

Lakers win 4-1

Kobe-26ppg, 5rpg, 5apg,

Duncan- 28ppg, 17rpg, 4.8apg,

2003:

Spurs win 4-2

Kobe- 32ppg, 5rpg, 4apg,

Duncan- 28ppg, 12rpg, 4apg,

2004:

Lakers win 4-2

Kobe- 26ppg, 6rpg, 6apg,

Duncan- 20ppg, 12rpg, 3apg,

2008:

Lakers win 4-1

Kobe- 29ppg, 6rpg, 4apg,

Duncan: 22ppg, 17rpg, 4apg,

Kobe has eliminated Duncan more than any other player ever.

bucketss
07-02-2014, 02:29 AM
head to head? they don't even play the same position dude.

Sssmush
07-02-2014, 02:34 AM
Lamborghini Veneno vs F-350 Super Duty

Who had the better career?

The Lambo drove around hot supermodels wearing thongs under their mini-skirts, & was photographed extensively pulling up to movie premieres and parties. It also starred in 2 James Bond movies and set a track speed record in Italy. Well known as the most popular car in the entire world.

The F-350 hauled a lot of wood for 20 years, and almost won a 6th wood hauling championship but it accidentally dumped a load of wood down a hill in the final minute of competition last year.

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-02-2014, 04:06 AM
Kobe has owned Duncan in the head to head playoff matchup's.

1999:

Spurs sweep

Kobe ave- 21ppg, 6rpg, 3apg

Duncan- 29ppg,10rpg,3apg

2001:

Lakers sweep

Kobe ave- 33ppg,7rpg, 7apg,

Duncan- 23ppg, 12rpg, 4apg,

2002:

Lakers win 4-1

Kobe-26ppg, 5rpg, 5apg,

Duncan- 28ppg, 17rpg, 4.8apg,

2003:

Spurs win 4-2

Kobe- 32ppg, 5rpg, 4apg,

Duncan- 28ppg, 12rpg, 4apg,

2004:

Lakers win 4-2

Kobe- 26ppg, 6rpg, 6apg,

Duncan- 20ppg, 12rpg, 3apg,

2008:

Lakers win 4-1

Kobe- 29ppg, 6rpg, 4apg,

Duncan: 22ppg, 17rpg, 4apg,

Kobe has eliminated Duncan more than any other player ever.


This is important when ranking them IMO. Even tho Duncan has always had good stats, Kobe and the Lakers would always put down Duncan and co. This was Duncan in his prime I might add.

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-02-2014, 04:07 AM
Lamborghini Veneno vs F-350 Super Duty

Who had the better career?

The Lambo drove around hot supermodels wearing thongs under their mini-skirts, & was photographed extensively pulling up to movie premieres and parties. It also starred in 2 James Bond movies and set a track speed record in Italy. Well known as the most popular car in the entire world.

The F-350 hauled a lot of wood for 20 years, and almost won a 6th wood hauling championship but it accidentally dumped a load of wood down a hill in the final minute of competition last year.

Lol

XpLiCiTT
07-02-2014, 04:24 AM
This is important when ranking them IMO. Even tho Duncan has always had good stats, Kobe and the Lakers would always put down Duncan and co. This was Duncan in his prime I might add.

You mean Shaq and the Lakers?

Redrum187
07-02-2014, 05:21 AM
Screw the personalities, screw the "heart" (how does one measure this?), screw their respective fans... Tim Duncan has accomplished more in the NBA than Kobe Bryant. Not just regular season, not just playoffs, but as a two-way player, Tim Duncan almost, if not just as affective, as he was when he entered the league. The only difference, the time on the court... Kobe Bryant is a phenomenal player, his game is more attractive, his market is bigger and he has a much bigger fan base. That doesn't contribute to one's skillset/accomplishments in the game of basketball (in my opinion).

Even though this should have no weight in the discussion, I also respect Tim Duncan as a player/sportsman and a leader exponentially more than Kobe Bryant. But it's as I said, that shouldn't matter or factor in this discussion.

Chronz
07-02-2014, 01:16 PM
Hey High Horse,
I've got them both in the GOAT #6-8 range (along with Shaq); so, naturally, it's like splitting hairs for me.
Therefore, I could certainly "live" with having TD ahead of Kobe. Personally, I have Kobe ahead of TD. I think he did "more with less" the years the Lakers sucked; and I think he did at least as much as TD in contributing to their team's respective Play-Off Success.
Yeah I dont see any argument for that. Only in a world where we ignore defense, production, winning and all accolades afforded. It really is that much of an open and shut case, that you find it hard to separate the 2 dominant bigs from Kobe saddens me.

Like I said earlier, you dont have the longevity, Kobe doesn't have the winning here either (considering Duncans consistency), he definitely doesn't have the defensive impact or tangible production, so whats left? Obviously it would have to be a more nuanced argument than you have provided, thats for sure. When faced against so much objective evidence AND subjective accolades, you really need more than "Im not sure".




and I think Kobe's consistency since then does beat TD's "up and down-ish" 2nd half of his career.
Agreed, but thats the less important sections of their careers and isn't a very long phase at all.

Bostonjorge
07-02-2014, 02:02 PM
Not only has kobe defeated Duncan 4 out 5 times in the last decade but put up better numbers then Duncan while doing it. Here are a couple of other things kobe has over Duncan.

15 times all nba teams selections

3rd most 40+ and 50+ point at 133 and 26

Second most points in a game 81

Most 3's in a game 12

Top 10 in free throws and 3's

Top 15 in steals

33rd on all time list assist leaders

4th all time leading score still moving up

3rd all time playoff scorer not to far from 1st

Most all star MVP's 4

2 scoring titles

7 finals appearance

Kobe beats Duncan in all these category's.

bucketss
07-02-2014, 02:13 PM
you're comparing stats of a pf and a sg dude just stop

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-02-2014, 02:14 PM
This is important when ranking them IMO. Even tho Duncan has always had good stats, Kobe and the Lakers would always put down Duncan and co. This was Duncan in his prime I might add.

You mean Shaq and the Lakers?

Kobe owned the Spurs countless times with shaq and without.

XpLiCiTT
07-02-2014, 02:35 PM
Kobe owned the Spurs countless times with shaq and without.

Kobe has helped the Lakers beat the Spurs in a playoff series only 1 time without Shaq. Kobe couldn't even make the playoffs the year after Shaq left him. If countless means you can count to 1, then yes he has "owned them countless times".

My original point was that you said "Kobe and the Lakers", which is just flat out disrespectful to Shaq since he was clearly the best player on the teams during his time with Kobe.

kdspurman
07-02-2014, 02:40 PM
you're comparing stats of a pf and a sg dude just stop

Pretty much. It'd be the equivalent of bringing up Duncan's blocks and def/off rebounds lol. Those things don't matter at all in this scenario.

Bostonjorge
07-02-2014, 02:46 PM
Kobe has helped the Lakers beat the Spurs in a playoff series only 1 time without Shaq. Kobe couldn't even make the playoffs the year after Shaq left him. If countless means you can count to 1, then yes he has "owned them countless times".

My original point was that you said "Kobe and the Lakers", which is just flat out disrespectful to Shaq since he was clearly the best player on the teams during his time with Kobe.
Duncan never beat kobe without shaq.

Shaq was great and led the team but kobe led the way every single time they played the spurs. Stats don't lie.

Also the year shaq left Malone, Payton, fisher and phill left the team a swell.Also every role player that actually played pargo, fox, George and Horace grant.

Bostonjorge
07-02-2014, 02:51 PM
you're comparing stats of a pf and a sg dude just stop

Finals appearances, all nba teams or scoring titles apply to all players.

Kobe scoring more then Duncan is also impressive when a C and a PF are #1 and #2 on the list. There are more bigs in the top 10 scoring list then guards.

Hawkeye15
07-02-2014, 02:53 PM
Finals appearances, all nba teams or scoring titles apply to all players.

Kobe scoring more then Duncan is also impressive when a C and a PF are #1 and #2 on the list. There are more bigs in the top 10 scoring list then guards.

there are more bigs in the top 10 all time than guards as well. Two way bigs are more impactful, unless your name is Jordan.

XpLiCiTT
07-02-2014, 02:57 PM
Duncan never beat kobe without shaq.

Shaq was great and led the team but kobe led the way every single time they played the spurs. Stats don't lie.

Also the year shaq left Malone, Payton, fisher and phill left the team a swell.Also every role player that actually played pargo, fox, George and Horace grant.

Duncan has played Kobe once in a playoff series post-shaq. He averaged 22.4, 17.4, 4.8, and 2 blocks. Wouldn't put the blame on Duncan for losing that series.

With Shaq&Kobe together, the Lakers/Spurs in playoffs series is 3-2 Lakers. Wouldn't call that "owning the Spurs". Shaq was the man on all of those teams and everyone knows it.

XpLiCiTT
07-02-2014, 03:00 PM
Finals appearances, all nba teams or scoring titles apply to all players.

Kobe scoring more then Duncan is also impressive when a C and a PF are #1 and #2 on the list. There are more bigs in the top 10 scoring list then guards.

Kobe scoring more than Duncan isn't that impressive considering how many more shots a game he takes. Stop comparing stats of a PF and a SG.

Chronz
07-02-2014, 03:46 PM
If countless means you can count to 1, then yes he has "owned them countless times".

lol