PDA

View Full Version : After watching these finals, I can't rate Lebron higher than Kobe.



lol, please
06-17-2014, 05:32 PM
I just cant. And the rumors of him thinking about bailing are pathetic.

goingfor28
06-17-2014, 05:35 PM
Yup

Max.This
06-17-2014, 05:39 PM
#3peat

ManRam
06-17-2014, 05:48 PM
This opinion of yours, it surprises me! Coming from you!?!?

/sarcasm


Your opinion certainly isn't wrong. It might not be undoubtedly "right" either, but whatever. Kobe's all but done with his career, and LeBron is in the midst of it. Kobe has accomplished a good deal more in terms of team success.

torocan
06-17-2014, 05:50 PM
This is best addressed when we reach the twilight of Lebron's career.

As of today Lebron is the better player. Will he have the greater career? It's definitely off track right now...

AllDay28
06-17-2014, 05:51 PM
It's not like he didn't step up ... His supporting cast played terrible lol

Wade n Fade
06-17-2014, 05:53 PM
This thread is a joke. Rings, blah blah blah. Lebron is and always will be a better talent than Kome/Kobrick. Lebron defends all 5 positions, has the best vision for a SF, rebounds/scores/passes the most on the Heat roster, leads the team in scoring/assists/rebounding, better athlete, more efficient, etc. Lebron is the ultimate teammate in the modern era.

BKdoubleStacker
06-17-2014, 06:03 PM
This thread is a joke. Rings, blah blah blah. Lebron is and always will be a better talent than Kome/Kobrick. Lebron defends all 5 positions, has the best vision for a SF, rebounds/scores/passes the most on the Heat roster, leads the team in scoring/assists/rebounding, better athlete, more efficient, etc. Lebron is the ultimate teammate in the modern era.

The ultimate teammate? Laugh

Bruno
06-17-2014, 06:04 PM
you shouldn't. he hasn't done enough to surpass Kobe yet. he's not a lock to pass him either, although he should, based on his physical gifts.

mngopher35
06-17-2014, 06:05 PM
It's not like he didn't step up ... His supporting cast played terrible lol

Ya but he needed more accolades if he wanted to move up and pass Kobe by the end of this season imo. I am not sure if the op means he never will or just not now but I think he is still behind Kobe for now. If the op is making it out to be one of those his legacy is ruined threads then never mind we all know that type. People have some issues and strong opinions with each of these players.

FOBolous
06-17-2014, 06:05 PM
LeBron is a better player than Kobe can ever hope to be. But he definitely lags behind Kobe in terms of loyalty. He has to be the most unloyal star player in the history of the NBA

Swift Game
06-17-2014, 06:23 PM
I just cant. And the rumors of him thinking about bailing are pathetic.

This is interesting. Had you posed the question after last years title I would have told you he still has a lot more to accomplish before passing Kobe. The loss this year should not come as a surprise if you have been following the NBA for a while.

Most people were aware that Miami had major weaknesses inside the paint and rebounding. Something they failed to address during the offseason. The gamble on Oden was not going to work and everyone knew that. I am sort of surprised that Haslem and Battier did not get more playing time..not that it would have made a difference in the Finals. Spo was scrambling and tried something new in game 7..to little to late.

My theory was also that no way Pop, Duncan, Parker and Manu were going to let another title slip away. You could tell they wanted revenge and to me were looking at Miami all season. The surprise certainly was the play of Kawai. Last year Green and Neal played lights out but could not sustain it in the end. Still frustrated about game 6 last year. Had pop just left Duncan in on those last 2 critical possessions we don't hear any funny comparisons to Jordan or the all time greats with Lebron in the conversation. Had Lebron lost last year as well his legacy amongst greats is almost sealed.

Sly Guy
06-17-2014, 06:28 PM
It's better to compare players once their careers are done. That being said, I think I value LeBron's efficiency more than Kobe's ability to generate his own shot.

Both are good players, but I'd take LeBron over Kobe.

WadeKobe
06-17-2014, 06:31 PM
Lol. Please.

Leftcoast_yg
06-17-2014, 06:42 PM
LeBron is a better player than Kobe can ever hope to be. But he definitely lags behind Kobe in terms of loyalty. He has to be the most unloyal star player in the history of the NBA

Yeah right, lebron wishes he can be a closer like kobe and scorer and his loyalty to one team.

beliges
06-17-2014, 07:17 PM
CLEARLY, most of you did not watch the NBA 8 years ago. Some of the plan dumb stuff being said about Kobe is truly appalling and frankly very embarrassing as a forum. What a joke. LOL. The worst part is that some of you actually believe what you are saying.

sens#11fan
06-17-2014, 07:21 PM
Right now, Lebron is a better player than Kobe, but overall from their accomplishments over their career Kobe is better. Lebron is on pace of surpassing Kobe, if he can win some more rings though. However, Kobe just has that killer instinct Lebron will never have, only, Kobe and Mj and a few other greats have it, which Lebron will never have.

beliges
06-17-2014, 07:33 PM
Right now, Lebron is a better player than Kobe, but overall from their accomplishments over their career Kobe is better. Lebron is on pace of surpassing Kobe, if he can win some more rings though. However, Kobe just has that killer instinct Lebron will never have, only, Kobe and Mj and a few other greats have it, which Lebron will never have.

Its honestly hard to convince me Lebron is better than Kobe. If you recall Kobe's prime, he would drop 45 at will and would shut down the other team's best perimeter player night in and night out, all while making HUGEEEE clutch shots time and time again. Its funny how quickly people forget. Its humorous to make a statement like Lebron's prime is mucccch better than Kobes. Lebron could NEVER do what Kobe did in his prime. Clearly, Lebron is the better passer between the two, but Kobe is a winner. The overall knowledge of basketball on this basketball forum is beyond appalling.

Bring The Heat
06-17-2014, 07:44 PM
I respect Kobe but I laugh so hard at the comments about loyalty, SERIOUSLY.... This guy was drafted onto the Los Angeles Lakers(big market city) one of the most historic franchises to play this game... Where Magic, Kareem and Wilt have cemented their legacy. Kobe already had a prime Shaquille O'Neal, one of the most dominant centers the game has ever seen... Yeah I'm sure it's so hard to be loyal when you have yourself a great team, coach and organization.. How can you compare such a small market city which has had countless numbers of failures through it's years like Cleveland to a city and historic franchise like the Los Angeles Lakers... Some of you guys are pathetic to believe what your saying.

Not to mention when the Lakers start sucking in the mid 2000's, Kobe was demanding a trade to leave the team and then Pau Gasol fell onto his lap and the Lakers started winning again. I would've love to see what Kobe Bryant would've done in Cleveland after those 8 years of a front office not building a championship caliber roster around him. Atleast LeBron played out his contract not demanding a trade and left as he had every right to do so as a free agent.

bucketss
06-17-2014, 08:14 PM
point of this thread?

cmellofan15
06-17-2014, 08:17 PM
point of this thread?

Someone's personal feelings regarding LeBron. Gotta let it be known.

bucketss
06-17-2014, 08:20 PM
Its honestly hard to convince me Lebron is better than Kobe. If you recall Kobe's prime, he would drop 45 at will and would shut down the other team's best perimeter player night in and night out, all while making HUGEEEE clutch shots time and time again. Its funny how quickly people forget. Its humorous to make a statement like Lebron's prime is mucccch better than Kobes. Lebron could NEVER do what Kobe did in his prime. Clearly, Lebron is the better passer between the two, but Kobe is a winner. The overall knowledge of basketball on this basketball forum is beyond appalling.

lol you proof is stuff like " killer instinct" and hes a winner lololollol you guys rarely make compelling arguments than accuse people of having no basketball knowledge, why? because we don't bow down to his fancy fadeaways?

Max.This
06-17-2014, 08:23 PM
lol you proof is stuff like " killer instinct" and hes a winner lololollol you guys rarely make compelling arguments than accuse people of having no basketball knowledge, why? because we don't bow down to his fancy fadeaways?

isnt that sort of how lebron fans want us to view lebron/ the heat. Could you imagine if the heat had won...... Those fans would never shut up about how Lebron is this great and how the Heat is this great and how spoelstra is underrated.... #3peat

bucketss
06-17-2014, 08:27 PM
isnt that sort of how lebron fans want us to view lebron/ the heat. Could you imagine if the heat had won...... Those fans would never shut up about how Lebron is this great and how the Heat is this great and how spoelstra is underrated.... #3peat

funny thing is most of the people debating for lebron are not even heat fans, actually they'e mostly the sites greatest basketball minds, but for kobe its the same trolls, some are not trolls but just biased laker fans.

Hotone1401
06-17-2014, 08:32 PM
funny thing is most of the people debating for lebron are not even heat fans, actually they'e mostly the sites greatest basketball minds, but for kobe its the same trolls, some are not trolls but just biased laker fans.

Greatest basketball minds??? LMAO!

There is no one on this site with a great basketball mind. Sure there are exceptional stat experts, extreme fans, but anybody with any sense of critical thinking can easily pick through every opinion/post made by applying appropriate context and revealing the bias and skewed statistics they use.

Lol, greatest basketball minds...you're a funny guy.

bucketss
06-17-2014, 08:42 PM
Greatest basketball minds??? LMAO!

There is no one on this site with a great basketball mind. Sure there are exceptional stat experts, extreme fans, but anybody with any sense of critical thinking can easily pick through every opinion/post made by applying appropriate context and revealing the bias and skewed statistics they use.

Lol, greatest basketball minds...you're a funny guy.

the greatest basketball minds of this SITE, not talking in general but only this site, i should have said the sites most knowledgeable posters. , they could be wrong or right but atleast they know their history and most importantly the game of basketball, better than " omgz kobes killer instinct" wtf is a killer instinct, my favorite is "clutch gene" can anyone prove any of this exist?

Asik's better
06-17-2014, 08:44 PM
Yeah right, lebron wishes he can be a closer like kobe and scorer and his loyalty to one team.
Oh stop with this loyalty crap. We all know Kobe would be at another team if jerry didn't threaten to send him to Detroit. Hate how people have this revisionist history of Kobe being loyal.

GREATNESS ONE
06-17-2014, 08:46 PM
:laugh:

Bring The Heat
06-17-2014, 08:51 PM
Oh stop with this loyalty crap. We all know Kobe would be at another team if jerry didn't threaten to send him to Detroit. Hate how people have this revisionist history of Kobe being loyal.

Lol just like I said in my post above. Kobe was drafted onto a historic franchise with the most dominate big man... So hard to be loyal let me tell you..

NFLNBA
06-17-2014, 08:55 PM
I agree with posters that say its easy to forget Kobe prime. They are completely different players. Kobe was more exciting because he was giving you 40 a night, 81, 63 in 3 qrts, tripple teams and he could still make it look easy. A pure scorer anywhere on the court. Lebron is more all around player. He has size to be better rebounder and the better passer.

Ill just leave it like all the minds that matter and know the game, the likes of MJ, Bird, Shaq ect ect and they all say if you want to play with one to have fun then its Lebron hands down, if you want to win and play with a killer its Kobe. There is a reason Lebron is 40% in his finals appearances, im no math wiz but thats FAILING in any class lol

NFLNBA
06-17-2014, 09:00 PM
Lol just like I said in my post above. Kobe was drafted onto a historic franchise with the most dominate big man... So hard to be loyal let me tell you..

Lets not forget Kobe had to go through many years with Kwame and Smush starting lol he contemplated leaving LA LA land but he loved LA and trusted the front office at the end to make it happen and they rewarded his loyalty with Gasol which turned out to be a great combo. Lebron decided to make a mockery of his city and leave them with millions watching, remember that is the only time EVER a bunch of stars talked about teaming and did a tv series about it lol

bucketss
06-17-2014, 09:07 PM
Lets not forget Kobe had to go through many years with Kwame and Smush starting lol he contemplated leaving LA LA land but he loved LA and trusted the front office at the end to make it happen and they rewarded his loyalty with Gasol which turned out to be a great combo. Lebron decided to make a mockery of his city and leave them with millions watching, remember that is the only time EVER a bunch of stars talked about teaming and did a tv series about it lol

and when he contemplated, they some how pulled of one of the most lopsided trades in nba history to acquire pau gasol, again so hard to be loyal to such a franchise.

jmaest
06-17-2014, 09:07 PM
This is nonsense. I understand hero worship and I understand loyalty but can we please have an honest unbiased discussion here?

At no point in time was Kobe EVER a shut down defender. There is absolutely no basis for that claim at all. Kobe is a good defensive player. He is not now nor has he ever been a shut down defender. Phil Jackson himself stated that Kobe was never a shutdown defender--often taking little jabs at Kobe's appearances on the defensive player list. To say Kobe guarded the other team's best player is complete and total revisionist history. Artest did that.

Second, I'm exhausted by how Kobe supporters ignore his field goal %age. It matters. It keeps him out of that "top 5/top 10" discussion. His utter lack of getting teammates involved has to be a knock against him. He's never seen a pass that he liked--and that's a shame because when he would facilitate he'd actually do a very good job of it.

One thing Kobe did very well was rebound. He just didn't/doesn't do enough of it.

Kobe is a scorer. That's what he is. A lethal, first ballot HoF'er who can score.

Pound for pound Lebron is better. He's a better passer. A better defender and a more efficient scorer. BUT they play two different positions. You can put Kobe on a team and he'll actually be a 2-guard. Lebron in many ways doesn't have a position--and in my mind that's a knock. He's built like a power forward but he's not physical to be that. He needs the ball too much to be an effective 2 or 3 for his style of play. PG is what he's best suited for but he seems resistant to playing that spot.

Kobe is more clutch than Lebron, for sure. I mean that conversation IMO is not even close. Neither is Bird or MJ but Kobe can at least be included in the conversation like a Miller or a Magic can.

Most importantly, intangibly, Kobe simply has balls that Lebron doesn't. He quits. He's quit a ton in his career. Kobe doesn't. He may be selfish and force bad plays but he's gonna go down swinging. You have got to respect that for sure.

For my money I take Kobe six days a week and twice on Sunday over Lebron. But I would prefer to have an objective perspective. They're both all time great Hall of Famers and I know what I'm getting with Kobe. I just think there's way too much to consider with Lebron that the return may not be worth it. He has plenty of time to change that perception though...

bucketss
06-17-2014, 09:11 PM
I agree with posters that say its easy to forget Kobe prime. They are completely different players. Kobe was more exciting because he was giving you 40 a night, 81, 63 in 3 qrts, tripple teams and he could still make it look easy. A pure scorer anywhere on the court. Lebron is more all around player. He has size to be better rebounder and the better passer.

Ill just leave it like all the minds that matter and know the game, the likes of MJ, Bird, Shaq ect ect and they all say if you want to play with one to have fun then its Lebron hands down, if you want to win and play with a killer its Kobe. There is a reason Lebron is 40% in his finals appearances, im no math wiz but thats FAILING in any class lol

actually only bird said that, and someone dogging him for losing to the spurs in 2007 is hilarious lol maybe he should have lost in the first round a few times so he could be 50% in the finals instead

JLynn943
06-17-2014, 09:20 PM
Don't worry, I can and do still rate him higher than Kobe.

jerellh528
06-17-2014, 09:32 PM
you shouldn't. he hasn't done enough to surpass Kobe yet. he's not a lock to pass him either, although he should, based on his physical gifts.

This

Swift Game
06-17-2014, 09:37 PM
This is nonsense. I understand hero worship and I understand loyalty but can we please have an honest unbiased discussion here?

At no point in time was Kobe EVER a shut down defender. There is absolutely no basis for that claim at all. Kobe is a good defensive player. He is not now nor has he ever been a shut down defender. Phil Jackson himself stated that Kobe was never a shutdown defender--often taking little jabs at Kobe's appearances on the defensive player list. To say Kobe guarded the other team's best player is complete and total revisionist history. Artest did that.

Second, I'm exhausted by how Kobe supporters ignore his field goal %age. It matters. It keeps him out of that "top 5/top 10" discussion. His utter lack of getting teammates involved has to be a knock against him. He's never seen a pass that he liked--and that's a shame because when he would facilitate he'd actually do a very good job of it.

One thing Kobe did very well was rebound. He just didn't/doesn't do enough of it.

Kobe is a scorer. That's what he is. A lethal, first ballot HoF'er who can score.

Pound for pound Lebron is better. He's a better passer. A better rebounder and a more efficient scorer. BUT they play two different positions. You can put Kobe on a team and he'll actually be a 2-guard. Lebron in many ways doesn't have a position--and in my mind that's a knock. He's built like a power forward but he's not physical to be that. He needs the ball too much to be an effective 2 or 3 for his style of play. PG is what he's best suited for but he seems resistant to playing that spot.

Kobe is more clutch than Lebron, for sure. I mean that conversation IMO is not even close. Neither is Bird or MJ but Kobe can at least be included in the conversation like a Miller or a Magic can.

Most importantly, intangibly, Kobe simply has balls that Lebron doesn't. He quits. He's quit a ton in his career. Kobe doesn't. He may be selfish and force bad plays but he's gonna go down swinging. You have got to respect that for sure.

For my money I take Kobe six days a week and twice on Sunday over Lebron. But I would prefer to have an objective perspective. They're both all time great Hall of Famers and I know what I'm getting with Kobe. I just think there's way too much to consider with Lebron that the return may not be worth it. He has plenty of time to change that perception though...

I agree that Kobe was never a clear cut shut Down defender but you cannot ignore that when he focused on Defense in his prime he can guard any 1, 2 or three. If kobe wanted to concentrate solely on defense he could be a shut down defender. Expending to much energy on defense would take away his primary strength which was scoring and isos. You saw Kobe improve his game every year even as he lost some athleticism. So lets not pretend he could not get stops in critical games when it mattered. You say it like he was Steve Kerr on defense or something.

Secondly, I have respected your opinion pretty much from what I have read so far. But this notion that his FG% would keep him out of the top 5 or 10 is just preposterous and ridiculous. Stats do not determine ones greatness. Maybe to some degree when you are talking totals such as points/rebounds/assists/ games played and surpassing some of the greats all time. That to me holds more weight than a knock on FG% through out his career. Your other points are certainly valid but this one is just laughable.

I agree with the intangibles point you made and having the heart to never give up. And to say that Kobe did not change his game to better the team is inaccurate. Pau was a good player in Memphis that couldn't pass the 1st round if you recall. Once Pau started playing with the Lakers and Kobe they had a good basketball relationship and ran the pick n roll better than any big man 2 guard combo at that time. Pau had a much easier time scoring and getting one on ones opposed to being doubled. In Kobe's prime he was still getting all the attention on double and triple teams. Remember when he used to get to the paint and all the defenses collapsed on him an broke down? The beneficiary was always Pau, Odom, Fisher/ Ariza and Sasha for 3 point shots. So to say kobe was never a facilitator is false. Watch some tape of when Pau arrived along that 3 year stretch. Remember was Ariza someone you really knew before he came to the Lakers? Not the same after he signed with the rockets..they gave up on him pretty quick. How about Odom the sixth man if the year? After he was traded he fell apart. So there is something these guys benefited from playing with the Lakers.

Third, I hope you don't lose any credibility here. You stated in this thread or another one that Rebounding was an edge you gave to Kobe over Bron because of his size and position difference correct? And here you are saying Bron is the better passer and rebounder? Make up your mind on this...Also Lebron should be a more efficient scorer..He is a 3 or 4 and gets to the basket and takes contact. He doesn't shoot as much as Kobe in his prime so of course his FG% is going to be better. Do you really think that if Lebron took as many jump shots as Kobe and the range of shots he would have a better FG% than Kobe? I don't think so..Lebron has improved his jumpshot but was never the scorer or shooter Kobe was.

And for my money yes I agree I would still take Kobe over Bron over a career because you know Kobe is giving you 110% and leaves everything on the court. You never question kobe's will and desire to win where as Bron is questionable and has this lingering over his legacy and career in my opinion. If Lebron can play at a high level for the next 5-6 years and get to the final and wins 3 or 4 more titles I may change my stance. Bron hasn't earned the right to be in the top 5 let alone the top 10. He simply has not done enough. And him forming the super team certainly does not help his case. Matter of fact if he jumps on another ship his legacy may continue to be tarnished. :cheers:

cmellofan15
06-17-2014, 10:00 PM
you shouldn't. he hasn't done enough to surpass Kobe yet. he's not a lock to pass him either, although he should, based on his physical gifts.

that's debatable, and there's probably a stronger argument for LeBron at this point.

and physical gifts? this (http://img.bleacherreport.net/img/article/media_slots/photos/001/055/075/hi-res-2862601_crop_exact.jpg?w=650&h=432&q=85) was lebron his rookie year. one of them is known for working hard to improve in all facets in the offseason and the other is Kobe.

Bring The Heat
06-17-2014, 10:03 PM
Lets not forget Kobe had to go through many years with Kwame and Smush starting lol he contemplated leaving LA LA land but he loved LA and trusted the front office at the end to make it happen and they rewarded his loyalty with Gasol which turned out to be a great combo. Lebron decided to make a mockery of his city and leave them with millions watching, remember that is the only time EVER a bunch of stars talked about teaming and did a tv series about it lol
You can't compare 8 years in Cleveland to 2 years of sucking in Los Angeles.. Kobe at first glance of a bad team was already begging to be traded.. He should know what type of organization he plays for and that they would come through which they did and they were back to contending.. Pretty much for most of his career he's been contending. How hard is it to be loyal to a historic franchise, big market city like Los Angeles that always competitive?

Raps08-09 Champ
06-17-2014, 10:17 PM
:shrug:

Jeffy25
06-17-2014, 10:23 PM
This opinion of yours, it surprises me! Coming from you!?!?

/sarcasm


Your opinion certainly isn't wrong. It might not be undoubtedly "right" either, but whatever. Kobe's all but done with his career, and LeBron is in the midst of it. Kobe has accomplished a good deal more in terms of team success.

Yup


And Lebron is just in the middle of (possibly arcing down) his prime.

You ranking him now is premature....but if his career were to end today, he and Kobe are right next to each other.

jmaest
06-17-2014, 11:10 PM
I agree that Kobe was never a clear cut shut Down defender but you cannot ignore that when he focused on Defense in his prime he can guard any 1, 2 or three. If kobe wanted to concentrate solely on defense he could be a shut down defender. Expending to much energy on defense would take away his primary strength which was scoring and isos. You saw Kobe improve his game every year even as he lost some athleticism. So lets not pretend he could not get stops in critical games when it mattered. You say it like he was Steve Kerr on defense or something.

Actually I said Kobe was a good defender. Many are overrating his defense however. He's not a "great defender" or close to a "shut down defender". A good defender though, for sure. In the grand scheme of things he played well on both sides of the ball but in this comparison he really cannot be defended. Lebron *is* a shut down defender. Other great players historically were also shut down defenders. For purposes of this comparison it is a negative.


Secondly, I have respected your opinion pretty much from what I have read so far. But this notion that his FG% would keep him out of the top 5 or 10 is just preposterous and ridiculous. Stats do not determine ones greatness. Maybe to some degree when you are talking totals such as points/rebounds/assists/ games played and surpassing some of the greats all time. That to me holds more weight than a knock on FG% through out his career. Your other points are certainly valid but this one is just laughable.

Oh you are so sorely mistaken. I'm sorry but it matters. One players 30 on 52% vs another player's 28 on 47% is a BIG difference. To say otherwise is irresponsible. It's not laughable at all. Factor in the defense and other areas of the game and together it keeps Kobe out of the top 5/top 10 all time. Since his primary focus is scoring, as you mentioned above, his inefficiency at it as compared to other great players is very much a negative. I understand that it goes against what you want to believe but it is an inarguable point. Especially as compared to Lebron or other all time greats such as Michael or Larry. It's a major knock, like it or not.


I agree with the intangibles point you made and having the heart to never give up. And to say that Kobe did not change his game to better the team is inaccurate. Pau was a good player in Memphis that couldn't pass the 1st round if you recall. Once Pau started playing with the Lakers and Kobe they had a good basketball relationship and ran the pick n roll better than any big man 2 guard combo at that time. Pau had a much easier time scoring and getting one on ones opposed to being doubled. In Kobe's prime he was still getting all the attention on double and triple teams. Remember when he used to get to the paint and all the defenses collapsed on him an broke down? The beneficiary was always Pau, Odom, Fisher/ Ariza and Sasha for 3 point shots. So to say kobe was never a facilitator is false. Watch some tape of when Pau arrived along that 3 year stretch. Remember was Ariza someone you really knew before he came to the Lakers? Not the same after he signed with the rockets..they gave up on him pretty quick. How about Odom the sixth man if the year? After he was traded he fell apart. So there is something these guys benefited from playing with the Lakers.

This is definitely fandom on your part, with all due respect. Every player you mentioned modified their game to play with Kobe, not the other way around. Phil Jackson also did more to modify the team's personality around Kobe's game than Kobe himself did. Again, Phil discusses this in his book. It's not news, it is a widely held opinion of Kobe.


Third, I hope you don't lose any credibility here. You stated in this thread or another one that Rebounding was an edge you gave to Kobe over Bron because of his size and position difference correct? And here you are saying Bron is the better passer and rebounder? Make up your mind on this...

Actually I corrected it. I meant to say "defender". "Lebron is the better defender." I was thinking about highlighting the fact that Lebron is actually a poor rebounder as compared to Kobe. Sometimes I type too fast. Thank you for catching this.


Also Lebron should be a more efficient scorer..He is a 3 or 4 and gets to the basket and takes contact. He doesn't shoot as much as Kobe in his prime so of course his FG% is going to be better. Do you really think that if Lebron took as many jump shots as Kobe and the range of shots he would have a better FG% than Kobe? I don't think so..Lebron has improved his jumpshot but was never the scorer or shooter Kobe was.

That's fair. BUT Kobe is a 45% shooter. Reggie Miller, for example, is a 47% shooter and the two are similar. Kobe may be the better "all around" player but the two have similarities offensively. The efficiency matters. I'm certainly not going to knock Lebron for being efficient. Kobe didn't have to shoot 22-25 shots a game. He chose to do that. His back-back title teams had enough talent to play with better ball movement. Kobe's inefficiency stems from a selfishness within him. I'm not knocking that, by the way. His competitiveness stems from that selfishness too and that's a positive. BUT, as I mentioned earlier, there is a significant difference between some of the all-time greatest players and Kobe with regards to this subject: They wanted to win more than anything and would do whatever it took to win. Kobe wants to win more than anything and would take as many shots as he could do that. Being inefficient as compared to other great players is a negative. Again, context. Kobe is an all-time great Hall of Famer. But as compared to a few others, this hurts him. No way around that.


And for my money yes I agree I would still take Kobe over Bron over a career because you know Kobe is giving you 110% and leaves everything on the court. You never question kobe's will and desire to win where as Bron is questionable and has this lingering over his legacy and career in my opinion. If Lebron can play at a high level for the next 5-6 years and get to the final and wins 3 or 4 more titles I may change my stance. Bron hasn't earned the right to be in the top 5 let alone the top 10. He simply has not done enough. And him forming the super team certainly does not help his case. Matter of fact if he jumps on another ship his legacy may continue to be tarnished. :cheers:

I mostly agree. I just don't see either Kobe or Lebron in the top 5/top 10 all time. I would concede that an argument can be made for Kobe to be in the top 10, however. I'm not going to lie, the more I look at it the more I think he might be 9th or 10th all-time. There have been a lot of great players to play the game over the years and I've only been watching the game since 1980-81.

Certainly, if you were to make an actual team, by position, Kobe would be 2nd team All-Time as the backup 2-guard and Lebron unfortunately doesn't make the roster.

Jeffy25
06-17-2014, 11:14 PM
From SwiftGame:


Stats do not determine ones greatness.

Then how on earth do you intend to measure it?

Chronz
06-17-2014, 11:26 PM
Lets not forget Kobe had to go through many years with Kwame and Smush starting lol
LOL. By many years, you really mean just 3 years. Bron stayed in Cleveland longer than that and this was with Kobe already being afforded championship caliber teams throughout his tenure and Bron being saddled with dead weight in Ohio.



he contemplated leaving LA LA land but he loved LA and trusted the front office at the end to make it happen and they rewarded his loyalty with Gasol which turned out to be a great combo.
Kobe didn't just contemplate leaving, he outright requested to be traded. If you think you know exactly how many details were involved with keeping Kobe in LA then your opinion isn't worth taking seriously, facts are, Kobe asked out but he oversaw everything, he would know every deal in advance. Neither side knows for sure, but the whole loving LA thing really reeks of romanticized story telling. I remember a rumor of him wanting to go to Chicago, but the Lakers wanted the guy that Kobe wanted to play with (Deng). Bulls were the kind of team to hold onto Deng with guys like KG available IIRC. Its also likely that Kobe saw he was wrong about where the team was heading, he admitted his requests for Kidd/Jermaine were off base as he won his first MVP.


Lebron decided to make a mockery of his city and leave them with millions watching, remember that is the only time EVER a bunch of stars talked about teaming and did a tv series about it lol

Cool. It also raised a **** ton of money for charity. Poor taste to his prior fans, but I've never been the kind of guy to take much personal insult to things like that so maybe I dont understand where this long lasting outrage should come from.

Players are free to do whatever the **** they want IMO, they run this league I watch.

BigCityofDreams
06-17-2014, 11:30 PM
and when he contemplated, they some how pulled of one of the most lopsided trades in nba history to acquire pau gasol, again so hard to be loyal to such a franchise.

Lopsided but yet they were able to get pieces and draft Marc Gasol.

bucketss
06-17-2014, 11:34 PM
Lopsided but yet they were able to get pieces and draft Marc Gasol.

it was lopsided at the time, happy it worked out for the grizz though

BigCityofDreams
06-17-2014, 11:36 PM
actually only bird said that, and someone dogging him for losing to the spurs in 2007 is hilarious lol maybe he should have lost in the first round a few times so he could be 50% in the finals instead

Dogging no but the talk before those finals was how great of a moment it would be in his early career if he won and beat the Spurs. Hell ppl were already talking about where he would go all time with a win. But then they got swept and it was oh hey he's a kid what do you expect.

bluefire7002
06-17-2014, 11:37 PM
and when he contemplated, they some how pulled of one of the most lopsided trades in nba history to acquire pau gasol, again so hard to be loyal to such a franchise.

That sounds more of you hating on the Lakers more than anything. What does that have to do with Kobe not being loyal playing with a crap kwame Brown and Smush and not bailing after a few yrs? Plus that Pau trade turned out pretty well for Memphis, they have a solid Center now in Marc for the next few years.

bucketss
06-17-2014, 11:50 PM
That sounds more of you hating on the Lakers more than anything. What does that have to do with Kobe not being loyal playing with a crap kwame Brown and Smush and not bailing after a few yrs? Plus that Pau trade turned out pretty well for Memphis, they have a solid Center now in Marc for the next few years.
he was trying to make it seem he was more loyal than lebron when the situations are completely different. also wanted to add kobe was still under contract unlike lebron, i wonder what would happen if kobe was a free agent that summer?

numba1CHANGsta
06-17-2014, 11:59 PM
You need at least 5 rings to be considered with greatness

MJ-6
Kareem-6
Russell-11
Magic-5
Kobe-5
Duncan-5

Teeboy1487
06-18-2014, 12:02 AM
Am I the only one sick of this comparison?

Kashmir13579
06-18-2014, 12:13 AM
PSD bottom feeder thread

jmaest
06-18-2014, 12:15 AM
You need at least 5 rings to be considered with greatness

MJ-6
Kareem-6
Russell-11
Magic-5
Kobe-5
Duncan-5

That's just stupid. Hakeem is better than Duncan & Kareem & Kobe and he only has 2.

numba1CHANGsta
06-18-2014, 12:25 AM
That's just stupid. Hakeem is better than Duncan & Kareem & Kobe and he only has 2.

If he was so better than why does he only have 2 rings? LOL

jmaest
06-18-2014, 12:26 AM
If he was so better than why does he only have 2 rings? LOL

Technically Kobe only has 2 rings as the main player too. He was 2nd fiddle for the first threepeat. So I guess he shouldn't be on the list either...

GREATNESS ONE
06-18-2014, 12:29 AM
:rolleyes:

DemarDerozan
06-18-2014, 12:34 AM
Lebron is the better athlete. Lebron is the better all around player.

Kobe is the better scorer. The better clutch player. Kobe was loyal to the team that drafted him and stuck through adversity. Kobe should have more MVPs but didn't due to character discrimination. Kobe is the better winner. Kobe won games with Smush Parker. He never had more than one perennial all star on his team. Kobe is more consistent and could always handle the pressure.

There is no discussion in terms of greatness only talent.

DemarDerozan
06-18-2014, 12:35 AM
Technically Kobe only has 2 rings as the main player too. He was 2nd fiddle for the first threepeat. So I guess he shouldn't be on the list either...

Okay. SMDH.

DemarDerozan
06-18-2014, 12:37 AM
That's just stupid. Hakeem is better than Duncan & Kareem & Kobe and he only has 2.

Came close to making an insult... Can't do it. But seriously this is one of the most mindless posts I have seen. Learn some nba history.

numba1CHANGsta
06-18-2014, 12:46 AM
Technically Kobe only has 2 rings as the main player too. He was 2nd fiddle for the first threepeat. So I guess he shouldn't be on the list either...

LOL Shaq wouldn't have won crap without Kobe so yes Kobe earned all of his rings

Jeffy25
06-18-2014, 12:49 AM
Lebron is the better athlete. Lebron is the better all around player.
Yes


Kobe is the better scorer.
In what context?

Any player that shoots significantly more than another player is going to score more.

But he isn't the better scorer. He shots far worse than Lebron.

The better clutch player.
We have statistical proof that this is incorrect.
Kobe was loyal to the team that drafted him and stuck through adversity.
Like demanding to be traded when they sucked?


Kobe should have more MVPs but didn't due to character discrimination.
When should Kobe have won MVP's? What years?

He never finished higher than 4th in Win Shares, or higher than 3rd in PER.

But let's ignore that, when should he have won MVP's in your mind?


Kobe is the better winner.
How? By winning three rings with a prime top 10 player of all time, and being the weaker player of the two?


Kobe won games with Smush Parker. He never had more than one perennial all star on his team. Kobe is more consistent and could always handle the pressure.

He was barely over .500 in those two years when Parker was there....meanwhile, Lebron was winning 60 games in Cleveland with even less help than that.

Hotone1401
06-18-2014, 12:52 AM
We can pretty much put this debate to rest guys.

The only people who are arguing for having Lebron over Kobe all-time at this point are that troll bucketttss, the jmaest guy, and Heat fans. The majority of fans have enough respect for Kobe's body of work that they'll wait til Lebron's career is over before they decide.

Jeffy25
06-18-2014, 12:52 AM
LOL Shaq wouldn't have won crap without Kobe so yes Kobe earned all of his rings

He was Pippen to Jordan during the first three-peat....he wasn't Jordan

jmaest
06-18-2014, 12:53 AM
Okay. SMDH.

First off I was joking because the post I was responding to was just ridiculous. BUT, there's some truth to what I was saying.

In the first Finals against Indiana Shaq played 12 more minutes per game, averaged 23 more points per game on 11 more shots per game than Kobe did. Shaq lead the Lakers in FGA having 67 total more shot attempts than Kobe. Shaq was the overwhelming Finals MVP.

In the second Finals against Philadelphia Shaq and Kobe played the same minutes per but Shaq averaged 33 PPG to Kobe's 24. Shaq lead the Lakers in FGA and shot 58% from the field. Again Shaq was the overwhelming Finals MVP. Not that it really matters but Iverson scored 35PPG against Kobe head-head in those Finals.

In the third Finals against the Nets, in what was really a dominant sweep, Shaq and Kobe again played similar minutes but the ball, again, flowed through Shaq. He averaged 10 more PPG than Kobe and again was the overwhelming Finals MVP.

Why is it that Lakers fans somehow think Kobe was more instrumental than he actually was for that 3-peat? That was very much Shaq's team and he was very much the dominant center/player that took the Lakers to those Championships.

The numbers don't lie.

jmaest
06-18-2014, 12:55 AM
We can pretty much put this debate to rest guys.

The only people who are arguing for having Lebron over Kobe all-time at this point are bucketttss, the jmaest guy, and Heat fans. The majority of fans have enough respect for Kobe's body of work that they'll wait til Lebron's career is over before they decide.

Maybe you don't know how to read. I've picked Kobe over Lebron in about 4 different posts. I was just putting both their careers into perspective.

Jeffy25
06-18-2014, 12:57 AM
If he was so better than why does he only have 2 rings? LOL

Because this is a team game?

Didn't the Spurs just clearly show everyone in the basketball world that this is clearly a team game that requires team help?


In one post, you want to give Kobe credit for helping Shaq with a three peat.

Then you want to say Hakeem can't be great because he only got two rings?

He never had any help! He was always by himself in Houston. He had a couple of years with Ralph Sampson early on, and a couple of years with an aging Clyde Drexler at the end......in the middle?

Imagine if he had had someone to help him out.



The hypocrisy is mind numbing. You can't say Shaq needed Kobe, and then say Hakeem should have more than 2 rings.

The face in your signature matches the statements you are making.

Hotone1401
06-18-2014, 12:58 AM
First off I was joking because the post I was responding to was just ridiculous. BUT, there's some truth to what I was saying.

In the first Finals against Indiana Shaq played 12 more minutes per game, averaged 23 more points per game on 11 more shots per game than Kobe did. Shaq lead the Lakers in FGA having 67 total more shot attempts than Kobe. Shaq was the overwhelming Finals MVP.

In the second Finals against Philadelphia Shaq and Kobe played the same minutes per but Shaq averaged 33 PPG to Kobe's 24. Shaq lead the Lakers in FGA and shot 58% from the field. Again Shaq was the overwhelming Finals MVP. Not that it really matters but Iverson scored 35PPG against Kobe head-head in those Finals.

In the third Finals against the Nets, in what was really a dominant sweep, Shaq and Kobe again played similar minutes but the ball, again, flowed through Shaq. He averaged 10 more PPG than Kobe and again was the overwhelming Finals MVP.

Why is it that Lakers fans somehow think Kobe was more instrumental than he actually was for that 3-peat? That was very much Shaq's team and he was very much the dominant center/player that took the Lakers to those Championships.

The numbers don't lie.

You're so right! It wasn't like Kobe had anything to do with the Lakers battling through the WCF to even reach the Finals for Shaq to be showcased against weaker competition.

Smh man...so do you use this line of reasoning to knock Shaq when he struggled against the Spurs and Kings all those years and Kobe had to carry them? There is an obvious bias with you. Quit the hate and show some respect. I can't believe how shortsighted some people are.

jerellh528
06-18-2014, 12:59 AM
I agree op. Lebron is a good player and all, he gets good stats. But he's not greater than the legend that is Kobe.

Swift Game
06-18-2014, 01:00 AM
Jmaest thanks for being classy with the response. .here is something I posted in another thread...
Swift Game*

Baller

Join DatevCash

Ink, I agree with your quote here ..*As many HOFers said when LBJ and the others colluded, you basically tarnish your rep when you decide you need to enlist other stars to win and then leave to join them after manipulating the whole thing.

I think the general consensus of fans would agree if your not a Miami fan or a fan of their big 3. In my eyes Lebrons titles are tarnished because of how he chose to get them. Wade has a little more respect I would think because he got one on his own team with Mourning and shaq and company.

And its funny how people call Kobe 2nd fiddle to shaq with those three straight titles. Shaq couldn't get It done with Penny in Orlando and he had a solid team there. Shaq could not be the #1 guy towards a title after he was traded from the Lakers. If you go back and watch all or highlights of those payoff games you could see Kobe had a lot to do with the Lakers winning. Shaq no doubt the most dominant center of that era, but Shaq does not get past the great western conference teams without Kobe.*

Those Portland teams with Pippen, Rasheed, Bonzi, Steve smith were basically the Finals. The Sacramento teams with Webber, Bibby ,Peja, Vlade was also basically a finals game..Watch those series and tell me Kobe didn't have just as much to do with those wins as shaq...not to mention the clutch shots and taking over the 4th quarters...that was Mr. Bryant ladies and gentlemen. Kobe doesn't get there without shaq either...But those guys did not play 2nd fiddle to each other..that's a fact.*

Not to mention Kobe and Shaq going through prime San Antonio teams with Ginobli, Duncan and Parker. Something Lebron is having trouble doing. Duncan is 38..Manu is 37..Parker is 32..People saying the Spurs are stacked compared to Miami is just ridiculous. Miami was still favored when the series started and a lot of people still had them beating the Spurs. The Heat just don't match up well with the Spurs..thats the point..its not like the Spurs had a stacked team...Manu said it himself in an interview..they don't have a Durant, Lebron or Kobe they can go to on Isolation plays which is accurate. Miami can just throw Lebron as an individual defender to limit their best player. They tried that in game 7 with him on Parker and it didn't matter. Parker finally woke up in the 4th quarter.*

In the end Lebron made his bed and has to sleep in it now. I don't want to hear all the aplogists such as stepen A. say how much older the Heat are than the Spurs...lmao...or the heavy minutes they have endured..or the cramps..give me a break.

Hotone1401
06-18-2014, 01:01 AM
Maybe you don't know how to read. I've picked Kobe over Lebron in about 4 different posts. I was just putting both their careers into perspective.

Then why are you debating with so many people who ultimately share the same overall opinion as you??

Doesn't matter how you get there. Everybody has their reasons.

jmaest
06-18-2014, 01:01 AM
Came close to making an insult... Can't do it. But seriously this is one of the most mindless posts I have seen. Learn some nba history.

I really think you should have more respect for history than you actually do.

Hakeem averaged 22 and 11 for this career. He shot 51% from the field. Unlike Kobe he was actually a shut-down defender. He could score from the outside, the post, or off the dribble to the basket. He played excellent team defense as well as the aforementioned shut down individual defender. He was an excellent passer as well.

And unlike Kobe Hakeem did not play with any other Hall of Famer in their prime. Drexler went to Houston for the 2nd title run and was not the HoF caliber player any longer.

He was absolutely dominant and really changed the Center position forever.

Not knowing history is what makes young kids like you lack credibility in intelligent conversations.

True Sports Fan
06-18-2014, 01:02 AM
LeBron is a better player than Kobe can ever hope to be. But he definitely lags behind Kobe in terms of loyalty. He has to be the most unloyal star player in the history of the NBA Do you not remember Kobe almost left LA? lol.

jmaest
06-18-2014, 01:03 AM
Then why are you debating with so many people who ultimately share the same overall opinion as you??

Doesn't matter how you get there. Everybody has their reasons.

Actually apparently it does matter how you get there. When I point out flaws in Kobe's game as part of my reasoning it offends the sensitivity of so many Laker loyalists and that's ridiculous.

The guy is a great talent and a Hall of Famer. He's a borderline top 10 player all-time. Why is that not enough?

bucketss
06-18-2014, 01:04 AM
If he was so better than why does he only have 2 rings? LOL

maybe if he met the likes of the 2009 orlando magic in the finals he would have more.

Hotone1401
06-18-2014, 01:04 AM
I really think you should have more respect for history than you actually do.

Hakeem averaged 22 and 11 for this career. He shot 51% from the field. Unlike Kobe he was actually a shut-down defender. He could score from the outside, the post, or off the dribble to the basket. He played excellent team defense as well as the aforementioned shut down individual defender. He was an excellent passer as well.

And unlike Kobe Hakeem did not play with any other Hall of Famer in their prime. Drexler went to Houston for the 2nd title run and was not the HoF caliber player any longer.

He was absolutely dominant and really changed the Center position forever.

Not knowing history is what makes young kids like you lack credibility in intelligent conversations.

Every point you bring up in favor of Hakeem are all attributes a great BIG MAN should have. High FG%? No ****. Team defense? Duh, big men protect the paint.

I love Hakeem. I just don't see why you're even wasting your time comparing a big and a guard.

True Sports Fan
06-18-2014, 01:05 AM
This site just refuses to go one week without Kobe/LBJ argument

Hotone1401
06-18-2014, 01:06 AM
Actually apparently it does matter how you get there. When I point out flaws in Kobe's game as part of my reasoning it offends the sensitivity of so many Laker loyalists and that's ridiculous.

The guy is a great talent and a Hall of Famer. He's a borderline top 10 player all-time. Why is that not enough?

Can you just stick to the thread topic then?

So you say you won't put Lebron ahead of Kobe just yet. There. It's done.

bucketss
06-18-2014, 01:08 AM
We can pretty much put this debate to rest guys.

The only people who are arguing for having Lebron over Kobe all-time at this point are that troll bucketttss, the jmaest guy, and Heat fans. The majority of fans have enough respect for Kobe's body of work that they'll wait til Lebron's career is over before they decide.

if you make a poll on this site lebron would absolutely destroy kobe,

Hotone1401
06-18-2014, 01:08 AM
This site just refuses to go one week without Kobe/LBJ argument

It seems to be the only subject the two fan bases are passionate about. A complete waste of time though I agree.

Hotone1401
06-18-2014, 01:09 AM
if you make a poll on this site lebron would absolutely destroy kobe,

Prove it.

I am curious to see if Lebron has passed Kobe all-time in the minds of PSD. It will really tell me a lot about the fans on this board.

Swift Game
06-18-2014, 01:10 AM
It's great friendly talk between nba fans. I actually enjoy this more than people using one sentence of foolishness. I prefer others pointing out facts. The stats don't tell the whole story however. But it's good to see people actually doing their homework.

Hotone1401
06-18-2014, 01:12 AM
It's great friendly talk between nba fans. I actually enjoy this more than people using one sentence of foolishness. I prefer others pointing out facts. The stats don't tell the whole story however. But it's good to see people actually doing their homework.

Yeah, but out of respect for both players it would be better if they just held off til Lebron was done.

Jeffy25
06-18-2014, 01:13 AM
You're so right! It wasn't like Kobe had anything to do with the Lakers battling through the WCF to even reach the Finals for Shaq to be showcased against weaker competition.

Smh man...so do you use this line of reasoning to knock Shaq when he struggled against the Spurs and Kings all those years and Kobe had to carry them? There is an obvious bias with you. Quit the hate and show some respect. I can't believe how shortsighted some people are.


Let's remove the Finals....here are the playoff numbers from 00-02

Again, does not include Finals numbers
00 - SAC, PHX, POR
Kobe Bryant
22.8 PPG, 15.8 Game Score, 8.3/17.9 shooting, 4.4 TRB, 4.5 Assists, 1.6 Steal, 1.5 Block, 2.9 Turnovers, .546 TS%

Shaq
28.2 PPG, 23.1 Game Score, 11.2/20.5 shooting, 15.0 TRB, 3.4 Assists, 0.4 Steal, 2.3 Block, 2.5 Turnovers, .548 TS%

Kobe carried Shaq?


01 - POR, SAC, SAS
Kobe
31.6 PPG, 24.2 Game Score, 11.3/22.9 Shooting, 7.0 TRB, 6.2 Assists, 1.6 Steals, 0.5 Block, 3.0 Turnovers, .577 TS%

Shaq
29.3 PPG, 22.6 Game Score, 11.6/21.3 Shooting, 15.3 TRB, 2.5 Assists, 0.5 Steals, 1.9 Block, 3.4 Turnovers, .558 TS%

I'd say Kobe helped much bigger here, but they both helped the Lakers fly through the West....they only played 11 games and completely dominated.


02 - POR, SAS, SAC
Kobe
26.6 PPG, 16.6 Game Score, 10.1/24.1 shooting, 5.9 TRB, 4.4 Assists, 1.4 Steal, 0.9 Block, 2.6 Turnover, .488 TS%

Shaq
26.4 PPG, 19.8 Game Score, 10.2/20.0 shooting, 12.7 TRB, 2.6 Assists, 0.5 Steal, 2.5 Block, 3.2 Turnover, .548 TS%




You guys done making up narratives that never happened?


Kobe never carried Shaq, and the only time in the playoffs he put up similar numbers were when the Lakers were sweeping and Shaq was resting....literally sitting out early in 4 of those 11 playoff games that year.

jmaest
06-18-2014, 01:13 AM
You're so right! It wasn't like Kobe had anything to do with the Lakers battling through the WCF to even reach the Finals for Shaq to be showcased against weaker competition.

Smh man...so do you use this line of reasoning to knock Shaq when he struggled against the Spurs and Kings all those years and Kobe had to carry them? There is an obvious bias with you. Quit the hate and show some respect. I can't believe how shortsighted some people are.

Seriously?

Shaq struggled against the Kings when he averaged 30 & 13 on 51% shooting from the field playing amazing defense to Kobe's 27 ppg and 40% from the field?

Oh and against the Spurs over those 3 years he averaged 21 & 14 on 54% from the field going up against BOTH Duncan & Robinson to Kobe's 25 and nothing on 38% from the field shooting?

Did you even watch those games or do you just blindly throw positive Kobe-isms out there? I mean come on...

And, for the record, this is what I'm talking about. I'm not a 'hater'. I'm not anti-Kobe or anti-LA or any of that. I'm a basketball fan. A big basketball fan. I watched the game religiously since I was a kid in the late 70's early 80's. I'm not begrudging Kobe's greatness or the Lakers great title runs. BUT I do not overvalue Kobe the way many of you do and it is your obsessive need to disregard anyone who puts Kobe into actual perspective that lessens you credibility not mine or anyone else who does the same.

Hotone1401
06-18-2014, 01:14 AM
Let's remove the Finals....here are the playoff numbers from 00-02

Again, does not include Finals numbers
00 - SAC, PHX, POR
Kobe Bryant
22.8 PPG, 15.8 Game Score, 8.3/17.9 shooting, 4.4 TRB, 4.5 Assists, 1.6 Steal, 1.5 Block, 2.9 Turnovers, .546 TS%

Shaq
28.2 PPG, 23.1 Game Score, 11.2/20.5 shooting, 15.0 TRB, 3.4 Assists, 0.4 Steal, 2.3 Block, 2.5 Turnovers, .548 TS%

Kobe carried Shaq?


01 - POR, SAC, SAS
Kobe
31.6 PPG, 24.2 Game Score, 11.3/22.9 Shooting, 7.0 TRB, 6.2 Assists, 1.6 Steals, 0.5 Block, 3.0 Turnovers, .577 TS%

Shaq
29.3 PPG, 22.6 Game Score, 11.6/21.3 Shooting, 15.3 TRB, 2.5 Assists, 0.5 Steals, 1.9 Block, 3.4 Turnovers, .558 TS%

I'd say Kobe helped much bigger here, but they both helped the Lakers fly through the West....they only played 11 games and completely dominated.


02 - POR, SAS, SAC
Kobe
26.6 PPG, 16.6 Game Score, 10.1/24.1 shooting, 5.9 TRB, 4.4 Assists, 1.4 Steal, 0.9 Block, 2.6 Turnover, .488 TS%

Shaq
26.4 PPG, 19.8 Game Score, 10.2/20.0 shooting, 12.7 TRB, 2.6 Assists, 0.5 Steal, 2.5 Block, 3.2 Turnover, .548 TS%




You guys done making up narratives that never happened?


Kobe never carried Shaq, and the only time in the playoffs he put up similar numbers were when the Lakers were sweeping and Shaq was resting....literally sitting out early in 4 of those 11 playoff games that year.

So Shaq closed all these games?

jerellh528
06-18-2014, 01:15 AM
I find it hilarious when anyone tries to "prove" something with an arbitrary stat. A stat in sports has no control, therefore isn't a fact. It's simply a number used to try and quantify production with no means of being consistant across every situation.

Swift Game
06-18-2014, 01:15 AM
Yeah, but out of respect for both players it would be better if they just held off til Lebron was done.

I agree with that..unfair comparison until it's all said and done. I don't see you much in the Lakers forum? ...there are some good posters left but most were real childish with no substance in the Lakers forum. The main NBA forum like this one had been much more enjoyable to read and post.

bucketss
06-18-2014, 01:16 AM
Prove it.

I am curious to see if Lebron has passed Kobe all-time in the minds of PSD. It will really tell me a lot about the fans on this board.

it already has been done, lebron absolutely pounded him it wasnt even close but it might be hard to find that thread but i will try to find it.

Jeffy25
06-18-2014, 01:17 AM
So Shaq closed all these games?

When was that the argument?


Maybe re-read what I responded to.

jerellh528
06-18-2014, 01:18 AM
Let's remove the Finals....here are the playoff numbers from 00-02

Again, does not include Finals numbers
00 - SAC, PHX, POR
Kobe Bryant
22.8 PPG, 15.8 Game Score, 8.3/17.9 shooting, 4.4 TRB, 4.5 Assists, 1.6 Steal, 1.5 Block, 2.9 Turnovers, .546 TS%

Shaq
28.2 PPG, 23.1 Game Score, 11.2/20.5 shooting, 15.0 TRB, 3.4 Assists, 0.4 Steal, 2.3 Block, 2.5 Turnovers, .548 TS%

Kobe carried Shaq?


01 - POR, SAC, SAS
Kobe
31.6 PPG, 24.2 Game Score, 11.3/22.9 Shooting, 7.0 TRB, 6.2 Assists, 1.6 Steals, 0.5 Block, 3.0 Turnovers, .577 TS%

Shaq
29.3 PPG, 22.6 Game Score, 11.6/21.3 Shooting, 15.3 TRB, 2.5 Assists, 0.5 Steals, 1.9 Block, 3.4 Turnovers, .558 TS%

I'd say Kobe helped much bigger here, but they both helped the Lakers fly through the West....they only played 11 games and completely dominated.


02 - POR, SAS, SAC
Kobe
26.6 PPG, 16.6 Game Score, 10.1/24.1 shooting, 5.9 TRB, 4.4 Assists, 1.4 Steal, 0.9 Block, 2.6 Turnover, .488 TS%

Shaq
26.4 PPG, 19.8 Game Score, 10.2/20.0 shooting, 12.7 TRB, 2.6 Assists, 0.5 Steal, 2.5 Block, 3.2 Turnover, .548 TS%




You guys done making up narratives that never happened?


Kobe never carried Shaq, and the only time in the playoffs he put up similar numbers were when the Lakers were sweeping and Shaq was resting....literally sitting out early in 4 of those 11 playoff games that year.

Wow forgot how close their stats were. Thanks for reminding us it was 1a 1b and nobody was really a second fiddle

jmaest
06-18-2014, 01:19 AM
I find it hilarious when anyone tries to "prove" something with an arbitrary stat. A stat in sports has no control, therefore isn't a fact. It's simply a number used to try and quantify production with no means of being consistant across every situation.

Do you not see how incredibly ridiculous that statement actually is?

bucketss
06-18-2014, 01:19 AM
I find it hilarious when anyone tries to "prove" something with an arbitrary stat. A stat in sports has no control, therefore isn't a fact. It's simply a number used to try and quantify production with no means of being consistant across every situation.

its better than throwing random stuff like "kobe is better because he has the clutch gene"

jerellh528
06-18-2014, 01:20 AM
Do you not see how incredibly ridiculous that statement actually is?

No it's actually the truth

jmaest
06-18-2014, 01:20 AM
Wow forgot how close their stats were. Thanks for reminding us it was 1a 1b and nobody was really a second fiddle

Where do you see close stats? Are you guys just so willingly blind? If so then it's not worth ever attempting to have an intelligent discussion with you.

jmaest
06-18-2014, 01:22 AM
No it's actually the truth

LMAO.

I mean come on. The Kobe narrative you guys are pushing simply doesn't jive with reality. No matter which player you pick, the numbers support their stature. Kobe is the only one whose numbers don't support the narrative you guys are selling and now the numbers don't count?

I mean come on man, seriously.

jerellh528
06-18-2014, 01:23 AM
LMAO.

I mean come on. The Kobe narrative you guys are pushing simply doesn't jive with reality. No matter which player you pick, the numbers support their stature. Kobe is the only one whose numbers don't support the narrative you guys are selling and now the numbers don't count?

I mean come on man, seriously.

Why do you even watch basketball then? I mean look at the box scores. I bet you can tell who wins the finals every year by the team stats

jerellh528
06-18-2014, 01:25 AM
Where do you see close stats? Are you guys just so willingly blind? If so then it's not worth ever attempting to have an intelligent discussion with you.

They were close and Kobe outperformed shaq many times and situations. Shaq was dominant, but so was Kobe. That's why they made slight work out of everyone. Shaq never won anything by himself and neither has Kobe.

Swift Game
06-18-2014, 01:25 AM
Let's remove the Finals....here are the playoff numbers from 00-02

Again, does not include Finals numbers
00 - SAC, PHX, POR
Kobe Bryant
22.8 PPG, 15.8 Game Score, 8.3/17.9 shooting, 4.4 TRB, 4.5 Assists, 1.6 Steal, 1.5 Block, 2.9 Turnovers, .546 TS%

Shaq
28.2 PPG, 23.1 Game Score, 11.2/20.5 shooting, 15.0 TRB, 3.4 Assists, 0.4 Steal, 2.3 Block, 2.5 Turnovers, .548 TS%

Kobe carried Shaq?


01 - POR, SAC, SAS
Kobe
31.6 PPG, 24.2 Game Score, 11.3/22.9 Shooting, 7.0 TRB, 6.2 Assists, 1.6 Steals, 0.5 Block, 3.0 Turnovers, .577 TS%

Shaq
29.3 PPG, 22.6 Game Score, 11.6/21.3 Shooting, 15.3 TRB, 2.5 Assists, 0.5 Steals, 1.9 Block, 3.4 Turnovers, .558 TS%

I'd say Kobe helped much bigger here, but they both helped the Lakers fly through the West....they only played 11 games and completely dominated.


02 - POR, SAS, SAC
Kobe
26.6 PPG, 16.6 Game Score, 10.1/24.1 shooting, 5.9 TRB, 4.4 Assists, 1.4 Steal, 0.9 Block, 2.6 Turnover, .488 TS%

Shaq
26.4 PPG, 19.8 Game Score, 10.2/20.0 shooting, 12.7 TRB, 2.6 Assists, 0.5 Steal, 2.5 Block, 3.2 Turnover, .548 TS%




You guys done making up narratives that never happened?


Kobe never carried Shaq, and the only time in the playoffs he put up similar numbers were when the Lakers were sweeping and Shaq was resting....literally sitting out early in 4 of those 11 playoff games that year.

Jeff thanks for posting this...I am not sure this helps or supports tour argument.

If you looks at these stats you provided you have made my point that much stronger.

Shaq and Kobe's # are not very far apart other than 2000...and kobe actually has comparable numbers and even better in the following years. So this comparison if anything shows almost an even workload they put into winning. Let's not forget about fisher..horry ..shaw and fox the also contributed as a team.

One of Kobe's biggest moments was against the Indiana pacers on the road. Shaw either got hurt or fouled out with a bunch of time left in the 4th Quarter..A young Kobe Bryant took over that game I'm the 4th with shaq sitting. One of the most memorable moments was a young kid winning that game...let's not forget that.

Jeffy25
06-18-2014, 01:25 AM
Wow forgot how close their stats were. Thanks for reminding us it was 1a 1b and nobody was really a second fiddle
What?


There are probably 10 guards in the league who averaged those numbers night in and night out across the league those years as Kobe did.

No big men were putting up shaq's numbers.

ink
06-18-2014, 01:27 AM
This is best addressed when we reach the twilight of Lebron's career.

As of today Lebron is the better player. Will he have the greater career? It's definitely off track right now...

This.

jmaest
06-18-2014, 01:28 AM
Why do you even watch basketball then? I mean look at the box scores. I bet you can tell who wins the finals every year by the team stats

I mean this respectfully. Do you suffer from a learning disability? If so, I would like to be more cautious with my words with you.

The box score should support the "eye test" and also clarify some things because we all know the "eye test" isn't always reliable.

The issue that you have, and those like you who are aggressively "pro-Kobe", is that the numbers & box score do not support your "eye test".

There's a pro-Kobe narrative/agenda you guys are pushing that doesn't jive with what I've seen--or a lot of other folks have seen--and the numbers support our side of it, not yours.

Why isn't it enough that Kobe is an all-time great, first ballot Hall of Famer, 2nd best 2-guard ever, and borderline top 10 player all-time??? Why does he HAVE to be more than that to you people?

jerellh528
06-18-2014, 01:32 AM
I mean this respectfully. Do you suffer from a learning disability? If so, I would like to be more cautious with my words with you.

The box score should support the "eye test" and also clarify some things because we all know the "eye test" isn't always reliable.

The issue that you have, and those like you who are aggressively "pro-Kobe", is that the numbers & box score do not support your "eye test".

There's a pro-Kobe narrative/agenda you guys are pushing that doesn't jive with what I've seen--or a lot of other folks have seen--and the numbers support our side of it, not yours.

Why isn't it enough that Kobe is an all-time great, first ballot Hall of Famer, 2nd best 2-guard ever, and borderline top 10 player all-time??? Why does he HAVE to be more than that to you people?

So what's your side? You picked an argument with me not the other way around.

ink
06-18-2014, 01:35 AM
Right now, Lebron is a better player than Kobe, but overall from their accomplishments over their career Kobe is better. Lebron is on pace of surpassing Kobe, if he can win some more rings though. However, Kobe just has that killer instinct Lebron will never have, only, Kobe and Mj and a few other greats have it, which Lebron will never have.

Its honestly hard to convince me Lebron is better than Kobe. If you recall Kobe's prime, he would drop 45 at will and would shut down the other team's best perimeter player night in and night out, all while making HUGEEEE clutch shots time and time again. Its funny how quickly people forget. Its humorous to make a statement like Lebron's prime is mucccch better than Kobes. Lebron could NEVER do what Kobe did in his prime. Clearly, Lebron is the better passer between the two, but Kobe is a winner. The overall knowledge of basketball on this basketball forum is beyond appalling.

You assume that people forget. What if they were not interested in star ball at the time? What if the Kobe love fest was the exact opposite of what they wanted to see? It is possible yiu know that the very things you think are so noteworthy are the very things that turn other long time ball fans off.

ink
06-18-2014, 01:37 AM
lol you proof is stuff like " killer instinct" and hes a winner lololollol you guys rarely make compelling arguments than accuse people of having no basketball knowledge, why? because we don't bow down to his fancy fadeaways?

isnt that sort of how lebron fans want us to view lebron/ the heat. Could you imagine if the heat had won...... Those fans would never shut up about how Lebron is this great and how the Heat is this great and how spoelstra is underrated.... #3peat

What if the world is a bigger place than Kobe vs Lebron? I couldn't give a damn about either of them tbh.

jmaest
06-18-2014, 01:40 AM
Jeff thanks for posting this...I am not sure this helps or supports tour argument.

If you looks at these stats you provided you have made my point that much stronger.

Shaq and Kobe's # are not very far apart other than 2000...and kobe actually has comparable numbers and even better in the following years. So this comparison if anything shows almost an even workload they put into winning. Let's not forget about fisher..horry ..shaw and fox the also contributed as a team.

One of Kobe's biggest moments was against the Indiana pacers on the road. Shaw either got hurt or fouled out with a bunch of time left in the 4th Quarter..A young Kobe Bryant took over that game I'm the 4th with shaq sitting. One of the most memorable moments was a young kid winning that game...let's not forget that.

I'm stunned by this. Shaq is literally filling out the stat sheet. He averaged a double-double every night, played superior defense, shot form a much higher percentage, AND scored more than Kobe.

The only thing "not that far apart" is the scoring totals--and that's only in certain rounds.

Shaq did so much more on the floor than Kobe did.

Why is it that everyone who is "pro-Kobe" stops at points and looks at nothing else?

ink
06-18-2014, 01:42 AM
Imagine wasting 10 years arguing about Kobe Bryant on a website. Or about Lebron for the last five. It's hard but apparently there are people who have actually wasted that much time and energy on it here.

Hotone1401
06-18-2014, 01:44 AM
I'm stunned by this. Shaq is literally filling out the stat sheet. He averaged a double-double every night, played superior defense, shot form a much higher percentage, AND scored more than Kobe.

The only thing "not that far apart" is the scoring totals--and that's only in certain rounds.

Shaq did so much more on the floor than Kobe did.

Why is it that everyone who is "pro-Kobe" stops at points and looks at nothing else?

Umm...because you can't compare a center with a shooting guard and talk about rebounds and shooting %?? And defense?? So Kobe guarded perimeter players and Shaq clogged the paint. Neither could do the other's job so why are you bringing up stupid stats like that??

Extremely dumb.

Hotone1401
06-18-2014, 01:45 AM
Imagine wasting 10 years arguing about Kobe Bryant on a website. Or about Lebron for the last five. It's hard but apparently there are people who have actually wasted that much time and energy on it here.

Yes, and to think they'll still probably be doing it until...

jerellh528
06-18-2014, 01:46 AM
Umm...because you can't compare a center with a shooting guard and talk about rebounds and shooting %?? And defense?? So Kobe guarded perimeter players and Shaq clogged the paint. Neither could do the other's job so why are you bringing up stupid stats like that??

Extremely dumb.

Yup

jmaest
06-18-2014, 01:48 AM
So what's your side? You picked an argument with me not the other way around.

I'm not sure about that.

I pick Kobe over Lebron and gave a few reasons in various posts.

Many people picked things I said because they weren't "pro-Kobe" enough or because I feel that other players are better than Kobe all-time.

I think Kobe fans are way too sensitive. Tell them anyone other than Jordan is better than Kobe and they start disrespecting what you know about basketball--which is what you did.

Magic, Bird, Michael, Wilt, Russell, Hakeem, Kareem, & Shaq are all better than Kobe all-time. You can make a legitimate argument for Dr. J as well. After that I have a hard time thinking of someone better than Kobe which is why I'm starting to concede he may very well be in the top 10.

The game of basketball is about a lot more than just points. FG% matters. Defense matters. Passing matters. Being good at all the fundamentals matter. When you start going down the stat sheet & combining the eye test to it, Kobe falls off against those 8 players mentioned above. BUT that is not a negative against Kobe. That is an elite group to be a part of. There are so many great players NOT in that group.

AND he is still ahead of Lebron.

jmaest
06-18-2014, 01:52 AM
Umm...because you can't compare a center with a shooting guard and talk about rebounds and shooting %?? And defense?? So Kobe guarded perimeter players and Shaq clogged the paint. Neither could do the other's job so why are you bringing up stupid stats like that??

Extremely dumb.

This is why I simply cannot be on a site like this. No one was asking Kobe to guard a center or Shaq to guard a guard. BUT Shaq was doing MORE than just scoring on both sides of the floor. AND while scoring, he was doing so at a greater efficiency--and doing more of it--than Kobe.

Kobe was almost literally just scoring.

You most definitely have a learning disability if you cannot see what is plainly in front of your face.

Crackadalic
06-18-2014, 01:53 AM
I remember all the hate Kobe got and now that his career is close to ending soon he's the messiah and the backlash is lebron for being 2-3 in the finals even though he is on pace on surpassing Kobe in overall career acomplishments. I guess when lebron is on his last two years people gonna start hating on the current best player

Hotone1401
06-18-2014, 01:55 AM
This is why I simply cannot be on a site like this. No one was asking Kobe to guard a center or Shaq to guard a guard. BUT Shaq was doing MORE than just scoring on both sides of the floor. AND while scoring, he was doing so at a greater efficiency--and doing more of it--than Kobe.

Kobe was almost literally just scoring.

You most definitely have a learning disability if you cannot see what is plainly in front of your face.

Learning disability because I think your efficiency argument is bogus? Lol, okay dude.

I guess I should go by your logic and somehow change my understanding of the game so that I can reason for a perimeter shot to have just as high a percentage of going in as a dunk. Yeah, that's what I'll do.

jmaest
06-18-2014, 01:55 AM
From what I can see, no one is actually hating on Kobe. They're just not praising him to the degree Laker fans like. That is what the problem really is.

Hotone1401
06-18-2014, 01:58 AM
From what I can see, no one is actually hating on Kobe. They're just not praising him to the degree Laker fans like. That is what the problem really is.

Says the guy who's been hating on Kobe throughout the thread by discrediting his accomplishments and comparing his efficiency and rebounding numbers to a center.

bucketss
06-18-2014, 01:59 AM
I'm not sure about that.

I pick Kobe over Lebron and gave a few reasons in various posts.

Many people picked things I said because they weren't "pro-Kobe" enough or because I feel that other players are better than Kobe all-time.

I think Kobe fans are way too sensitive. Tell them anyone other than Jordan is better than Kobe and they start disrespecting what you know about basketball--which is what you did.

Magic, Bird, Michael, Wilt, Russell, Hakeem, Kareem, & Shaq are all better than Kobe all-time. You can make a legitimate argument for Dr. J as well. After that I have a hard time thinking of someone better than Kobe which is why I'm starting to concede he may very well be in the top 10.

The game of basketball is about a lot more than just points. FG% matters. Defense matters. Passing matters. Being good at all the fundamentals matter. When you start going down the stat sheet & combining the eye test to it, Kobe falls off against those 8 players mentioned above. BUT that is not a negative against Kobe. That is an elite group to be a part of. There are so many great players NOT in that group.

AND he is still ahead of Lebron.

so you're saying dr j is better than lebron?

ink
06-18-2014, 02:06 AM
I'm not sure about that.

I pick Kobe over Lebron and gave a few reasons in various posts.

Many people picked things I said because they weren't "pro-Kobe" enough or because I feel that other players are better than Kobe all-time.

I think Kobe fans are way too sensitive. Tell them anyone other than Jordan is better than Kobe and they start disrespecting what you know about basketball--which is what you did.

Magic, Bird, Michael, Wilt, Russell, Hakeem, Kareem, & Shaq are all better than Kobe all-time. You can make a legitimate argument for Dr. J as well. After that I have a hard time thinking of someone better than Kobe which is why I'm starting to concede he may very well be in the top 10.

The game of basketball is about a lot more than just points. FG% matters. Defense matters. Passing matters. Being good at all the fundamentals matter. When you start going down the stat sheet & combining the eye test to it, Kobe falls off against those 8 players mentioned above. BUT that is not a negative against Kobe. That is an elite group to be a part of. There are so many great players NOT in that group.

AND he is still ahead of Lebron.

I don't see anything wrong with that post. You're just not jumping up and down enough about Kobe to please everyone. I honestly have no idea what's wrong with that.

ink
06-18-2014, 02:08 AM
Says the guy who's been hating on Kobe throughout the thread by discrediting his accomplishments and comparing his efficiency and rebounding numbers to a center.

Is not praising someone to the hilt now the same as hating?

Bostonjorge
06-18-2014, 02:12 AM
Saying kobe was never a shut down defender is a joke. Kobe played amazing D in the playoffs. Also who has more defensive teams then kobe? I guess every coach thought he played shut down D. I mean why vote for him over and over again.


Kobe learned a lot from phill. When kobe would argue phill would tell the media that they could trade kobe if he wanted. So when kobe was saying he wanted to get traded why did he never waive his no trade clause? Kobe and phill both got results. They both got what they were really after.


Lebron will never catch kobe. He's in the Barkley and Malone range to me. Both those players and a long list of others can win the way James did.

jmaest
06-18-2014, 02:20 AM
Learning disability because I think your efficiency argument is bogus? Lol, okay dude.

I guess I should go by your logic and somehow change my understanding of the game so that I can reason for a perimeter shot to have just as high a percentage of going in as a dunk. Yeah, that's what I'll do.

Uh yeah, that's what you should do. The whole point of basketball is to move the ball around to create a higher percentage shot. Passing, rebounding, and then defending are all part of the sport.

And if you're going to talk about perimeter shots being low percentage then you acknowledge my point on how many other Hall of Famers--who were predominantly perimeter scorers--also shot with a higher percentage than Kobe. Jerry West, Reggie Miller, Michael Jordan, etc.

So "dude" maybe you should re-evaluate how you view the game or maybe you should learn your history. Not sure.

jmaest
06-18-2014, 02:21 AM
so you're saying dr j is better than lebron?

As of right now, yes.

Jeffy25
06-18-2014, 02:22 AM
Says the guy who's been hating on Kobe throughout the thread by discrediting his accomplishments and comparing his efficiency and rebounding numbers to a center.

How many times does he have to compliment Kobe before you actually notice it?

jmaest
06-18-2014, 02:27 AM
Says the guy who's been hating on Kobe throughout the thread by discrediting his accomplishments and comparing his efficiency and rebounding numbers to a center.

What exactly did I discredit? Can you go and find it, please?

And I NEVER compared his rebounding numbers to a center. I said that Shaq posted double-doubles and Kobe just scored. Sorry but Kobe could have passed more, maybe had more steals, maybe done something other than force shots. That was my point.

jmaest
06-18-2014, 02:28 AM
Saying kobe was never a shut down defender is a joke. Kobe played amazing D in the playoffs. Also who has more defensive teams then kobe? I guess every coach thought he played shut down D. I mean why vote for him over and over again.


Kobe learned a lot from phill. When kobe would argue phill would tell the media that they could trade kobe if he wanted. So when kobe was saying he wanted to get traded why did he never waive his no trade clause? Kobe and phill both got results. They both got what they were really after.


Lebron will never catch kobe. He's in the Barkley and Malone range to me. Both those players and a long list of others can win the way James did.

Um Phil Jackson said he wasn't a shut down defender. And never say never...

bucketss
06-18-2014, 02:34 AM
Saying kobe was never a shut down defender is a joke. Kobe played amazing D in the playoffs. Also who has more defensive teams then kobe? I guess every coach thought he played shut down D. I mean why vote for him over and over again.


Kobe learned a lot from phill. When kobe would argue phill would tell the media that they could trade kobe if he wanted. So when kobe was saying he wanted to get traded why did he never waive his no trade clause? Kobe and phill both got results. They both got what they were really after.


Lebron will never catch kobe. He's in the Barkley and Malone range to me. Both those players and a long list of others can win the way James did.

he won a lot them because of his name not based on merit, this blind love for kobe is hysterical, btw as an indvidual player both malone/barkley are up there with kobe, only reason they don't have chips was becuse of jordan. LOL they would destroy the 2009 orlando magic and 2010 celtics c'mon son. this is why championships are not the end all be all.

Hotone1401
06-18-2014, 03:08 AM
Uh yeah, that's what you should do. The whole point of basketball is to move the ball around to create a higher percentage shot. Passing, rebounding, and then defending are all part of the sport.

And if you're going to talk about perimeter shots being low percentage then you acknowledge my point on how many other Hall of Famers--who were predominantly perimeter scorers--also shot with a higher percentage than Kobe. Jerry West, Reggie Miller, Michael Jordan, etc.

So "dude" maybe you should re-evaluate how you view the game or maybe you should learn your history. Not sure.

I understand all of this. You aren't speaking on anything that everybody doesn't understand about the game already. But please tell me how this supports you're reasoning for comparing rebounding numbers & fg% between a SG and a center please.

lol, please
06-23-2014, 11:07 PM
he won a lot them because of his name not based on merit, this blind love for kobe is hysterical, btw as an indvidual player both malone/barkley are up there with kobe, only reason they don't have chips was becuse of jordan. LOL they would destroy the 2009 orlando magic and 2010 celtics c'mon son. this is why championships are not the end all be all.
:facepalm: