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Mile High Champ
06-17-2014, 01:03 PM
Hey guys, It is that time of year again! Once again we kick of the PSD NBA Off-Season Player Rankings. This is the 7th year I have done this on PSD and it typically always makes for good deabte and often initates terrific discussion. Consider that when these polls first began, the likes of Baron Davis and Devin Harris were cracking these polls. Which player will you rank high this year that may get some raised eyebrows as the years pass by? Only time will tell. Please keep things civil and discuss who you feel is most fitting and deserving of being voted in each poll.

A lot has changed since last season. Tim Duncan and the San Antonio Spurs are NBA champions for the 5th time after getting some revenge for their finals loss last season to the Heat. We could be looking at the end of the big 3 era.

Let start the discussion since lots has changed since the start of last season. Please TRY AND VOTE FOR THE BEST PLAYER AND DON'T BE A HOMER. I will leave the poll open for one day and than we can carry on to the next best player at that position. I will add more players after each round. I have also included the results of those last 6 years so everyone can see how much things have changed...Enjoy.

For a player to be eligible for this years poll, they must of played in a minimum of 10 games.

REMEMBER this is based on who is the best player, not the player who has the potential to be the best. Though we do recognize that some voters will vote based soley on potential and others by last years numbers.

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2013 Off-Season PSD PG Rankings
1) Chris Paul
2) Tony Parker
3) Russel Westbrook
4) Stephen Curry
5) Kyrie Irving
6) Deron Williams
7) Rajon Rondo
8) Mike Conley
9) John Wall
10) Ty Lawson

2012 Off-Season PSD PG Rankings
1) Chris Paul
2) Derrick Rose
3) Russell Westbrook
4) Deron Williams
5) Rajon Rondo
6) Tony Parker
7) Steve Nash
8) Kyrie Irving
9) Kyle Lowry
10) Ty Lawson

2011 Off-Season PSD PG Rankings
1) Chris Paul
2) Derrick Rose
3) Deron Williams
4) Russell Westbrook
5) Steve Nash
6) Rajon Rondo
7) Tony Parker
8) Jason Kidd
9) Chauncey Billups
10) Stephen Curry

2010 Off-Season PSD PG Rankings
1) Deron Williams
2) Chris Paul
3) Steve Nash
4) Rajon Rondo
5) Derrick Rose
6) Chauncey Billups
7) Russel Westbrook
8) Tony Parker
9) Jason Kidd
10) Tyreke Evans

2009 Off-Season PSD PG Rankings
1) Chris Paul
2) Deron Williams
3) Chauncey Billups
4) Tony Parker
5) Steve Nash
6) Derrick Rose
7) Devin Harris
8) Rajon Rondo
9) Jose Calderon
10) Jason Kidd

2008 Off-Season PSD PG Rankings
1) Chris Paul
2) Steve Nash
3) Deron Williams
4) Baron Davis
5) Tony Parker
6) Jason Kidd
7) Chauncey Billups
8) Gilbert Arenas
9) Jose Calderon
10) Andre Miller

Mile High Champ
06-17-2014, 01:11 PM
Let us a vote!

sixers247
06-17-2014, 01:16 PM
YESSSS I hvae been waiting for this! Gotta go Paul here

Mile High Champ
06-17-2014, 01:21 PM
Probably comes down to Paul, Curry and Westbrook. Paul for me still has the edge as he is the best all around player of the bunch. The game has certainly closed and I don't believe the gap is as wide as it has been years past.

Minimal
06-17-2014, 01:24 PM
Westbrook

Jeffy25
06-17-2014, 01:49 PM
Paul

tredigs
06-17-2014, 02:10 PM
Paul is the smartest/craftiest/most refined, Westbrook is the most explosive and has the highest potential to take over a quarter or even a game on both ends, and Curry has the most ability to warp other teams defenses + completely draw in their focus (opening the game up immensely for other teammates) while still lighting you up.

I am a Curry/Warrior fan so it naturally comes with a grain of salt, but there is no chance I would trade him for another guard in the NBA straight up. Though I'm not sure that LAC or OKC would either.

Crackadalic
06-17-2014, 02:12 PM
It's between Paul/Westbrook/Curry. I have to really think about this

Allphakenny1
06-17-2014, 02:21 PM
Curry has closed the gap this year, but needs to cut down on the turnovers is he wants to catch Paul next year. This is still Paul's spot for right now.

Bruno
06-17-2014, 02:35 PM
Chris Paul still has it. its getting closer though.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=paulch01&y1=2014&p2=westbru01&y2=2014&p3=curryst01&y3=2014

side note, Deron Williams won #1 in 2010, wow. you can see how much the league has changed since 2008 looking back on the list.

IversonIsKrazy
06-17-2014, 03:01 PM
I went with CP. Nice to see Parker with a couple of votes tho

Crackadalic
06-17-2014, 03:04 PM
Chris Paul for me after thinking about it

ManRam
06-17-2014, 04:17 PM
Paul took a small step backwards this year, and some of his competition took steps forward...but he's still the best the game has to offer.

FlashBolt
06-17-2014, 04:47 PM
Give me Paul and then Westbrook.

FYL_McVeezy
06-17-2014, 04:54 PM
CPTrey

Kaner
06-17-2014, 05:01 PM
It's wayyy closer then this Poll is showing. Am about 50/50 Curry or Paul. Curry having the edge offensively and Paul having the edge defensively. Am voting Curry just because he deserves some love in this poll.

jmaest
06-17-2014, 05:07 PM
You know what this list shows? How sad the PG position is in the NBA today. The only one who qualifies as a true PG is Paul.

Kaner
06-17-2014, 05:36 PM
You know what this list shows? How sad the PG position is in the NBA today. The only one who qualifies as a true PG is Paul.

This is funny because the pg position is as strong as it's ever been

Bruno
06-17-2014, 06:06 PM
This is funny because the pg position is as strong as it's ever been

thats the way the league wanted it.

VCaintdead17
06-17-2014, 06:51 PM
Still Paul, but it's closer than it has been in some time

jmaest
06-17-2014, 07:39 PM
This is funny because the pg position is as strong as it's ever been

How so?

One guy averaged over 10 assists a game. One. You realize at one point the NBA had Magic, J Kidd, Gary Payton, Steve Nash, Tim Hardaway, Isaiah Thomas, John Stockton, and Mark Jackson all playing at the same time right?

Not sure you could say the PG position is "as strong as it's ever been" with a straight face...

TrueFan420
06-17-2014, 08:07 PM
Where is my patty mills choice?

Shammyguy3
06-17-2014, 09:21 PM
How so?

One guy averaged over 10 assists a game. One. You realize at one point the NBA had Magic, J Kidd, Gary Payton, Steve Nash, Tim Hardaway, Isaiah Thomas, John Stockton, and Mark Jackson all playing at the same time right?

Not sure you could say the PG position is "as strong as it's ever been" with a straight face...

After seeing the Finals, you should think about what it means to be a "point guard" in this league. It's not about getting assists per game. It's about executing an offensive game plan. And those players you brought up all playing in the same season together... you do know that not all of those guys averaged 10+ assists right? The year was 1995-1996 (which Steve Nash and Isiah Thomas didn't even play so you're already incorrect). That year, Magic hardly played and when he did he only had 6.9apg. Kidd just missed the 10apg mark. Gary Payton that year only had 7.5apg and his career best was 9apg, Hardaway only had 7.1apg that year (.1 off his career best) and Mark Jackson only had 7.8apg.


Not to mention the league back then was FAR faster, there were far more possessions to rack up raw per game numbers

Greet
06-17-2014, 09:26 PM
Between Paul/Curry/Westbrook?? What about Tony Parker.... He's the key cog in the most efficient offense in the league!

Going Paul here though, he's just on another level.

cmellofan15
06-17-2014, 09:50 PM
Paul. Easy.

Jamiecballer
06-17-2014, 10:05 PM
You know what this list shows? How sad the PG position is in the NBA today. The only one who qualifies as a true PG is Paul.
I'd rather avoid the discussion of true PG because I think that generally is applied to PGs who simply rack up assists rather than actual ball movers, but I agree with the sentiment. there is very poor point guard play league wide.

jmaest
06-17-2014, 10:12 PM
After seeing the Finals, you should think about what it means to be a "point guard" in this league. It's not about getting assists per game. It's about executing an offensive game plan. And those players you brought up all playing in the same season together... you do know that not all of those guys averaged 10+ assists right? The year was 1995-1996 (which Steve Nash and Isiah Thomas didn't even play so you're already incorrect). That year, Magic hardly played and when he did he only had 6.9apg. Kidd just missed the 10apg mark. Gary Payton that year only had 7.5apg and his career best was 9apg, Hardaway only had 7.1apg that year (.1 off his career best) and Mark Jackson only had 7.8apg.


Not to mention the league back then was FAR faster, there were far more possessions to rack up raw per game numbers

I was making a point about the depth of the PG position in the past in direct contradiction to the comment about the PG position being the best its ever been in the NBA. Based on your response, it surprises me that bit of common sense was lost on you.

And you actually made my point as opposed to counter it. A traditional PG creates shots for the other players on the court. Over the course of 30+ minutes he's going to move the ball a ton and will amass assists. It's just going to happen. For example, in 1991 9 players averaged more than 9 assists. 7 of those are "all-time greats" and 5 of averaged more than 10 assists per game.

And your comment about the possessions per game is not about the speed but about the style of play. Team basketball will get more possessions vs a slowed down 1 on 1 style of basketball that has been played in recent years. Using 1991 as an example, again, the PACE in the Finals that season was 85.3 vs 87.4 from this year's Finals. The Spurs ball movement forced the Heat into a much faster style of play than they're accustomed to.

PG's today are more of a "shoot first, pass second" mindset. CP3 being a clear exception to that. That was my underlying point. That type of ball movement *should* be coming from the PG position but it's not in today's game.

But there's hope that it is changing. In total assists per game all time, 2012-2013 & 2013-2014 rank 40th & 39th respectively. The first seasons since 1999 to crack the top 40. Interestingly the Spurs averaged 25.2 assists per game as a team this season which was the league average for team assists in 1980-1981.

jmaest
06-17-2014, 10:13 PM
I'd rather avoid the discussion of true PG because I think that generally is applied to PGs who simply rack up assists rather than actual ball movers, but I agree with the sentiment. there is very poor point guard play league wide.

Fair point. Tony Parker doesn't rack up assists and I would definitely consider him a "true PG". Your point is well taken.

ManningToTyree
06-17-2014, 10:21 PM
Paul but curry is right there

Kaner
06-17-2014, 11:26 PM
How so?

One guy averaged over 10 assists a game. One. You realize at one point the NBA had Magic, J Kidd, Gary Payton, Steve Nash, Tim Hardaway, Isaiah Thomas, John Stockton, and Mark Jackson all playing at the same time right?

Not sure you could say the PG position is "as strong as it's ever been" with a straight face...

You realize what you just said was a wrong right? Nash started in 95-96, Kidd 94-95 a year after Thomas retired in 93-94. Nash's prime doesn't even come close to overlapping with most of those guys and Mark Jackson was an average pg that played for a long time. So really you just have Payton, Hardaway, Stockton, and Kidd. Paul alone is better then any of those guys; Curry and Westbrook this season were as impressive or better than any season of those guys, and Parker was a key contributior in one of the most dominating offensive performances we've ever seen.

The idea that you need to average 10 assists to be an elite pg is foolish the pass first pg is an outdated ideal. the goal is to get the ball in the basket and Curry, Paul, and Westbrook are some of the best pg ever at doing it not to mention Rose when he was healthy. After them you have a large group of guys like Parker, Wall, Irving, Lawson, Lowry, I.Thomas, Dragic, Holiday (healthy), Walker, Lilliard, Rondo, Conley, D. Williams, MCW, and I'll throw in Rubio if you value apg so much. And since apparently were just going by names I'll also include Nash since he's actually still in the league:rolleyes:

There are close to a dozen pg's right now who could easily score 20ppg a night and on good efficiency. Most of them are around 25 and are only going to get better. So much talent right now is centered around the pg position. 6 of the last 9 R.O.Y.'s have been pg's. Between 70 to 05 around 5 pg's won. I'd argue Westbrook and Rose are the #1 and 2 most athletic pg's of all-time. I seriously can't believe you can say the pg position is weak when their are so many good young pg's right now.

ManRam
06-18-2014, 09:57 AM
I was making a point about the depth of the PG position in the past in direct contradiction to the comment about the PG position being the best its ever been in the NBA. Based on your response, it surprises me that bit of common sense was lost on you.

And you actually made my point as opposed to counter it. A traditional PG creates shots for the other players on the court. Over the course of 30+ minutes he's going to move the ball a ton and will amass assists. It's just going to happen. For example, in 1991 9 players averaged more than 9 assists. 7 of those are "all-time greats" and 5 of averaged more than 10 assists per game.

And your comment about the possessions per game is not about the speed but about the style of play. Team basketball will get more possessions vs a slowed down 1 on 1 style of basketball that has been played in recent years. Using 1991 as an example, again, the PACE in the Finals that season was 85.3 vs 87.4 from this year's Finals. The Spurs ball movement forced the Heat into a much faster style of play than they're accustomed to.

PG's today are more of a "shoot first, pass second" mindset. CP3 being a clear exception to that. That was my underlying point. That type of ball movement *should* be coming from the PG position but it's not in today's game.

But there's hope that it is changing. In total assists per game all time, 2012-2013 & 2013-2014 rank 40th & 39th respectively. The first seasons since 1999 to crack the top 40. Interestingly the Spurs averaged 25.2 assists per game as a team this season which was the league average for team assists in 1980-1981.

What's wrong with the fact that PGs look for their shot a bit more than they may have traditionally done so? Just because that's the way it was, doesn't mean that's the only way to do it. An offense with 5 pieces that are all capable scorers and passers is going to yield a much more efficient product than one that relies solely on a PG to do all the play-making.

Why "should" ball movement be coming from the PG? Just because it always has? Isn't it a bit predictable defensively when a team is leaning on their PG to do all the creating? Isn't it a plus to have a PG who not only can pass but is also a threat to score himself? Or a team that has a bunch of play-makers rather than just one?

Did you watch the Spurs? Did you see how devastating they were because they had ball movement coming from everywhere?

The position is changing, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily getting worse. There are some general ways in which offenses have perhaps become more flawed, but the game is continuing to evolve...and evolution moves forward. I'm just not convinced these ultra pass-first PGs are such a valuable commodity any more.


I think Chris Paul is such a willing passer almost to a fault, honestly. I think Rondo's inability to score has hurt his teams a tad in the past as well. Those offenses took a huge dip when he started getting more and more involved. Obviously, some of that has to do with the pieces around him, but still.


I don't think you're necessarily wrong about the value of a more traditional PG, I'm just not sure it's black and white. I'm not convinced there is anything wrong with these guys looking to score. It just adds another dynamic to things.

koreancabbage
06-18-2014, 10:04 AM
its either Westbrook or Paul. I like Westbrook moreso now because the dude is a flat out beast on both ends of the floor.

akia83
06-18-2014, 10:28 AM
Paul here. And I guess Dragic will be listed as a SG, because he was easily a top 5 PG this year, or a top 2 SG.
Anyway Lillard (and Dragic if PG) deserved to be options way before Rose, D-Will or even Rondo imo

jmaest
06-18-2014, 11:33 AM
You realize what you just said was a wrong right? Nash started in 95-96, Kidd 94-95 a year after Thomas retired in 93-94. Nash's prime doesn't even come close to overlapping with most of those guys and Mark Jackson was an average pg that played for a long time. So really you just have Payton, Hardaway, Stockton, and Kidd. Paul alone is better then any of those guys; Curry and Westbrook this season were as impressive or better than any season of those guys, and Parker was a key contributior in one of the most dominating offensive performances we've ever seen.

The idea that you need to average 10 assists to be an elite pg is foolish the pass first pg is an outdated ideal. the goal is to get the ball in the basket and Curry, Paul, and Westbrook are some of the best pg ever at doing it not to mention Rose when he was healthy. After them you have a large group of guys like Parker, Wall, Irving, Lawson, Lowry, I.Thomas, Dragic, Holiday (healthy), Walker, Lilliard, Rondo, Conley, D. Williams, MCW, and I'll throw in Rubio if you value apg so much. And since apparently were just going by names I'll also include Nash since he's actually still in the league:rolleyes:

There are close to a dozen pg's right now who could easily score 20ppg a night and on good efficiency. Most of them are around 25 and are only going to get better. So much talent right now is centered around the pg position. 6 of the last 9 R.O.Y.'s have been pg's. Between 70 to 05 around 5 pg's won. I'd argue Westbrook and Rose are the #1 and 2 most athletic pg's of all-time. I seriously can't believe you can say the pg position is weak when their are so many good young pg's right now.

Scroll back. I already explained why I threw the names out there. I'm not rehashing it.

And I'll summarize my opinion succinctly. The PG position is for facilitation. Ball movement & running the offense.

Every single player mentioned, while an exceptional player potentially, is a "shoot first" player--with the exception of CP3. That is not what the PG position is.

There could be 30 guys who play like Lebron and are all 6'8 and claim to be Centers and I would say "how sad is the Center position in the NBA?" Why, because that's not basketball. That's more 1on1, individual scoring, and athleticism on a court with 4 other guys.

You can disagree but I'm not wrong.

ManRam
06-18-2014, 11:40 AM
The PG position is for facilitation. Ball movement & running the offense.


I just think we need to get over the archaic positional definitions. That's all. Offensives in the NBA have evolved past the point of having a "true PG" play next to a "true SG" next to a "true SF" next to a "true PF" next to a "true C". Things are more fluid, and that's for the better. We look for guys with more diverse skill sets offensively. The three point shot has facilitated a lot of this as well. Spacing and quick perimeter ball movement (which requires multiple apt passers) is more important than ever.

Again, why does the bulk of facilitating HAVE to come from the PG? A well-balanced offense with multiple play-makers is gonna be far more dynamic than an offense that demands all the facilitating come from one guy. Do you disagree with that?

jmaest
06-18-2014, 11:42 AM
What's wrong with the fact that PGs look for their shot a bit more than they may have traditionally done so? Just because that's the way it was, doesn't mean that's the only way to do it. An offense with 5 pieces that are all capable scorers and passers is going to yield a much more efficient product than one that relies solely on a PG to do all the play-making.

Why "should" ball movement be coming from the PG? Just because it always has? Isn't it a bit predictable defensively when a team is leaning on their PG to do all the creating? Isn't it a plus to have a PG who not only can pass but is also a threat to score himself? Or a team that has a bunch of play-makers rather than just one?

Did you watch the Spurs? Did you see how devastating they were because they had ball movement coming from everywhere?

The position is changing, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily getting worse. There are some general ways in which offenses have perhaps become more flawed, but the game is continuing to evolve...and evolution moves forward. I'm just not convinced these ultra pass-first PGs are such a valuable commodity any more.


I think Chris Paul is such a willing passer almost to a fault, honestly. I think Rondo's inability to score has hurt his teams a tad in the past as well. Those offenses took a huge dip when he started getting more and more involved. Obviously, some of that has to do with the pieces around him, but still.


I don't think you're necessarily wrong about the value of a more traditional PG, I'm just not sure it's black and white. I'm not convinced there is anything wrong with these guys looking to score. It just adds another dynamic to things.

You made my point. I was using 'assists' as landmark to make my point. Probably not the best choice.

Nothing is wrong with PG who can score a bit more so long as they are willing passers and efficient ball movers. Half the names on that list are not that. Curry, Westbrook, Wall, Williams, and Rose are not that. Williams & Rose are comparable in that both do look to pass first but neither is actually a great passer.

Rondo is inept at scoring, unlike the other players on the list.

Tony Parker, for example, fits what we're both saying I think. He is very much a traditional PG and his assists are kept down BECAUSE of the system he plays in BUT he is a major part of why that system works.

Irving and Lowry, IMO, are a little too confusing to me so I cannot personally define them one way or the other if I'm being fair. I would give both the benefit of the doubt and say they are willing, efficient passers--certainly I think the jury is still out because both are still developing.

jmaest
06-18-2014, 11:46 AM
I just think we need to get over the archaic positional definitions. That's all. Offensives in the NBA have evolved past the point of having a "true PG" play next to a "true SG" next to a "true SF" next to a "true PF" next to a "true C". Things are more fluid, and that's for the better. We look for guys with more diverse skill sets offensively. The three point shot has facilitated a lot of this as well. Spacing and quick perimeter ball movement (which requires multiple apt passers) is more important than ever.

Again, why does the bulk of facilitating HAVE to come from the PG? A well-balanced offense with multiple play-makers is gonna be far more dynamic than an offense that demands all the facilitating come from one guy. Do you disagree with that?

And here's where you lose me again...

I never said the bulk of facilitation/ball movement has to come from the PG position. I said the PG has to be able to facilitate and move the ball effectively. Even in my first post.

And he does. That's the position. That's the way the game is designed. That's the way it's played. Players can evolve and play multiple positions BUT the positions are what they are. Lebron, for example, can be a PG. KD, a 7 footer, can be a small forward. There's no laws against any of that and I agree that type of diversity is good for the game.

But the positions are what they are.

Having said that, if you can't move the ball efficiently you're just not a point guard. Curry and Wesbrook are really 2 guards who bring up the ball and that's fine. No one is saying they're not good players.

ManRam
06-18-2014, 12:41 PM
And here's where you lose me again...

I never said the bulk of facilitation/ball movement has to come from the PG position. I said the PG has to be able to facilitate and move the ball effectively. Even in my first post.

And he does. That's the position. That's the way the game is designed. That's the way it's played. Players can evolve and play multiple positions BUT the positions are what they are. Lebron, for example, can be a PG. KD, a 7 footer, can be a small forward. There's no laws against any of that and I agree that type of diversity is good for the game.

But the positions are what they are.

Having said that, if you can't move the ball efficiently you're just not a point guard. Curry and Wesbrook are really 2 guards who bring up the ball and that's fine. No one is saying they're not good players.

We'll agree to disagree. I think definitions of these positions can and have changed, just look at the power forward position. I believe that Curry and Westbrook are point guards. They might not be Bob Cousy out there, but they're point guards true and true. Curry was third in the NBA in assists...just because he's also a tremendous scorer/shooter doesn't mean he isn't a true "point guard". It makes him a better point guard than those who can't. Russell had more assists, by a sizable margin, than anyone else in the playoffs. He averaged 8.1 a game, third most. He passes plenty. He's a perfectly capable passer. And again, just because he's also an aggressive high volume scorer doesn't mean he's not a "point guard".

Again, we'll agree to disagree. This is more or less semantics. I firmly believe that it's a case of traditional, or "archaic", positional definitions being outdated. You think it's players playing out of position. Things change. The game changes. Things thus evolve...and that includes how we view and play these positions. Power forwards have different roles than power forwards did 40 years ago. That's not up for debate. Why can't other positions change too? PG's don't have to be the world class facilitators just because that's what we grew up learning.

jmaest
06-18-2014, 03:08 PM
We'll agree to disagree. I think definitions of these positions can and have changed, just look at the power forward position.

We will agree to disagree BUT the World Champion Spurs literally just spanked the defending champions with the greatest margin of victory in Finals history with a team that plays "traditional positions". So I have that on my side... ;)

tredigs
06-18-2014, 05:12 PM
We will agree to disagree BUT the World Champion Spurs literally just spanked the defending champions with the greatest margin of victory in Finals history with a team that plays "traditional positions". So I have that on my side... ;)

And the Heat won the prior 2 years with a team that doesn't. Plus, TP is much more of a scoring mentality point + a "system" point than one who looks to simply facilitate for others above all else. Do you not realize that Tony leads them in points and field goal attempts year after year? Pop understands his limits (no outside game) and knows that the way to win offensively now is in large part by excelling at the 3, so in turn he brings in players and creates an offense that can best utilize that (resulting in less attempts by TP than a more dynamic offensive player like Curry), but make no mistake that he is their #1 scoring option.

How many of these "true PG's" that you are affectionately referring to as the best of the best can you say that about?

BcEuAbRsS
06-18-2014, 09:09 PM
Can't vote on mobile, but I doubt that Paul will need it.

jimm120
06-18-2014, 09:36 PM
Paul
Curry
Westbrook
Parker
Irving
Wall
Lowry


Deron Williams, imo, shouldn't make the top 10.

FlashBolt
06-18-2014, 10:26 PM
The fact that Rose and Deron are on this list speaks volumes. These two should be removed.

Lowry
Lillard
Wall
Irving
Curry
Paul
Parker
Westbrook
Dragic
Rondo
Teague
Lawson
Conley
Thomas

All better PG's than Deron..

jerellh528
06-19-2014, 04:00 AM
Where's lillard? He's needs to be added as an option on the next installment of this PG series, he's probably a top 5 pg. With that said, I choose cp3