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View Full Version : Charles Barkley, "Lebron is closer to catching Kobe than he is michael."



jerellh528
06-16-2014, 06:05 PM
Charles Barkley has always been a huge advocate for james, though in lieu of the heat's recent finals loss, Sir charles had some choice words about Lebron.

“I always find it fascinating…‘Did [Kobe] die or something?’ because LeBron has two championships and they just forget that Kobe has five. And they’re like how good is he compared to Michael Jordan, I say Kobe still has more. I think he’s closer to catching Kobe than he is Michael.”

http://www.lakersnation.com/charles-barkley-discusses-kobe-jordan-after-lebrons-third-final-loss/2014/06/16/


Discuss

Bruno
06-16-2014, 06:06 PM
by default.

goingfor28
06-16-2014, 06:08 PM
Thank you

d00d
06-16-2014, 06:10 PM
catching his what

bluefire7002
06-16-2014, 06:11 PM
inb4 people start posting their stats.

JordansBulls
06-16-2014, 06:11 PM
Barkley changes his mind more than a woman. Dude was saying he couldn't see Lebron getting beat 4 times in a series and then he gets beat in 4 out of 5 games all blowouts of 15+ points a game.

Raps08-09 Champ
06-16-2014, 06:13 PM
Barkley changes his mind more than a woman. Dude was saying he couldn't see Lebron getting beat 4 times in a series and then he gets beat in 4 out of 5 games all blowouts of 15+ points a game.

Lol nice jab and trolling.

But I agree about Barkley changing his mind. Barkley said that he thought Lebron only needed 3-4 titles for him to consider Lebron in the GOAT conversation. Then he said in another statement that he can't see Lebron in his top 5 ever.

bucketss
06-16-2014, 06:30 PM
kobes is in lebrons dust....

bucketss
06-16-2014, 06:33 PM
catchiing jordans greatness is near impossible but i already know some players who are better indivdual players,

NYKNYGNYY
06-16-2014, 06:38 PM
Good observation ... This is stupid obviously he's closer to Kobe dosnt even make sense why is this at tread there's nothing to talk about

49ersLALSFGiant
06-16-2014, 06:42 PM
Good observation ... This is stupid obviously he's closer to Kobe dosnt even make sense why is this at tread there's nothing to talk about

Its a thread because some people think LeBron has already passed Kobe.

bulls_world23
06-16-2014, 06:42 PM
If he has not passed Kobe he sure as hell is close to it. Barkley is a big troll

Hotone1401
06-16-2014, 06:48 PM
I'm glad Barkley has come to his senses. As most fans, he was simply getting to carried away and living in the moment when he started making claims for Lebron being in discussion as GOAT.

This just goes to show that people need to start putting things in perspective and judging players in that sense once their careers are done. Lebron has plenty of years left to play and Kobe's body of work should be more appreciated by the new generation of fans.

giants73756
06-16-2014, 06:57 PM
Just another case of Barkley saying something really stupid that he knows isn't true just to get a reaction out of people.

Hotone1401
06-16-2014, 06:58 PM
Just another case of Barkley saying something really stupid that he knows isn't true just to get a reaction out of people.

So how do you really think he feels about the subject?

giants73756
06-16-2014, 07:04 PM
Nobody other than Laker homers is stupid enough to think Kobe is better than LeBron. Of course he thinks LeBron surpassed Kobe long ago.

Swift Game
06-16-2014, 07:06 PM
I'm glad Barkley has come to his senses. As most fans, he was simply getting to carried away and living in the moment when he started making claims for Lebron being in discussion as GOAT.

This just goes to show that people need to start putting things in perspective and judging players in that sense once their careers are done. Lebron has plenty of years left to play and Kobe's body of work should be more appreciated by the new generation of fans.

This. Lebron may surpass Kobe someday but that day was certainly not yesterday. He has not done enough to suprass kobe. Some people will argue that he is a better all around player and sure a better defender or rebounder I am good with that. Making his team mates better was another but it sure didn't look that way in these Finals. Not a big disparity on that comparison.

I think the big thing with Lebron was that he was so hyped early on that people do obsess with the moment. What impressed me with Lebron is what he did with the Cavs against Detroit and Boston in the Finals. That was pretty good at that time. Much more impressive than joining stars to form a team to win.

If Lebron leaves to another team with better players do his potential titles or finals appearances hold more weight than the likes of Jordan/Kobe or Duncan for example? I see an asterisk at that point and I think most of the legends of the game would see it that way.

FraziersKnicks
06-16-2014, 07:07 PM
He's already surpassed Kobe

Phenom1
06-16-2014, 07:09 PM
People only say Lebron has surpassed Kobe already because they tend to live in the moment and forget how dominating Kobe was, just because they are now seeing how good Lebron is. Yes, Lebron is close to catching him. Will he catch him and surpass him? who knows anything can happen. If he remains healthy than he has a good chance. 10 years from now, they'll be a new "Lebronisque," player and people will than also forget Lebron's greatness and will say he's better than Lebron. The only player we don't forget is Jordan because we are constantly reminded of him by his clothes and branded shoes.

jmaest
06-16-2014, 07:36 PM
I think the problem with the comparison is that neither Kobe nor Lebron are "dominant". Kobe could be stopped. He has 5 titles but Shaq was the focal point of the offense for the first 3. I know Laker fans don't like to relive the Shaq era but it happened.

3 Finals MVP's and the most dominant player on the court in his time. One of the most dominant players of all time.

Kobe then goes out and takes more shot attempts than the net two players on his team combined as they get their butts kicked by Boston. After that Phil is able to reign Kobe in and he gets 2 titles. The first one was a whipping of Orlando. Kobe still got his shot attempts BUT there was a much better balance of scoring from everyone else. And Orlando really wasn't a great team. The second title I really felt Gasol was the biggest difference. He shot 48% from the field and was impossible to guard. Kobe, in both title runs, averaged a little less than 42% from the field. That's not dominant.

Lebron had a chance--still has a chance--to be dominant. He would have to make some changes to how he plays but it can happen. Lebron can be stopped in the clutch or in close games. It's happened more often than not. Kobe is way more clutch than Lebron. Even now as an older player I would still rather have Kobe take a must have shot over Lebron. But Lebron has proven himself to be better than Kobe in a lot of areas on the court.

Kobe is established as probably the 2nd best 2-guard in the history of the game, a first ballot Hall of Famer, and a top 50 player all time. IMO Kobe is not a top ten player all time and Lebron still has a chance to be.

Hotone1401
06-16-2014, 07:38 PM
Nobody other than Laker homers is stupid enough to think Kobe is better than LeBron. Of course he thinks LeBron surpassed Kobe long ago.

That's not what he's saying now??

xbrackattackx
06-16-2014, 07:44 PM
catching his what
Not passes....:)

More-Than-Most
06-16-2014, 07:51 PM
He is already ahead of him by a good bit... Everyone but laker loves know and accept this

IKnowHoops
06-16-2014, 07:56 PM
Just trolling by the OP. He gets mad every time a Lebron thread is made and then he makes this.
Ring count doesn't make one player better than another. Its about statistics and game film. Lebron is easily better than Kobe.

jmaest
06-16-2014, 08:10 PM
He is already ahead of him by a good bit... Everyone but laker loves know and accept this

I don't agree and I'm not a Laker lover.

Lebron is better at scoring efficiency, that is true. But is he a better scorer? All things considered it's arguable but Kobe can score multiple ways. He can post up--and that's a true post up not the crap that's considered a post game now. He can take you off the dribble and drive to the basket. He can score from the outside. Lebron cannot really score from the post. His outside shot, while seriously improved, is not on Kobe's level, and really his whole scoring game comes from face up and drive to the basket--which he does as good as anyone in history. I would give the skill of scoring as an edge to Kobe and the efficiency as an edge to Lebron. Making it almost a wash.

Defensively, okay. Not even close. Kobe is one of the most overrated defenders of all time while Lebron really is a "shut down" defender. Edge Lebron. Distributing the ball goes to Lebron as well. Not even worth contemplating.

Rebounding edge goes to Kobe. I know many of you will disagree but look at the facts. Kobe is a 2 guard while Lebron is a #4. While not a true #4, he plays close to the basket as much as possible. He's bigger and stronger than Kobe and yet only averages 1 more rebound a game for his career I believe. And if you look at his 2nd finals without Shaq--which I used as a bit of a knock on Kobe--he was unbelievable on the boards averaging just over 8 a game. Lebron has never shown that kind of propensity on the backboards and, if we're being honest, is actually a weakness in Lebron's game.

"Clutch". It's impossible to defend this since it's really a perception thing. But my perception is that Kobe is a lot more clutch than Lebron. Actually I have no perception of Lebron as "clutch" at all. Neither is Larry Bird, but Kobe's name can at least be part of the conversation. Not Lebron.

"Leadership" is another tough one. Kobe is just not a leader. He's never been and probably never will be. It's a gene he misses. And Lebron was a leader than bolted for Miami to basically reject being a leader. I'm not sure either of them possesses this trait.

A major edge that Kobe has over Lebron, IMO, is the intangible of learning the game from better/smarter people. He played for Phil Jackson. He was second fiddle to Shaq. There's a lot of learning there that's tough to quantify but there's no way to ignore it. Wouldn't Lebron have been a better player if he learned a thing or two from Shaq in his prime? Or if he played for jackson or another all time great coach? I think so.

IMO I think Lebron and Kobe are very much a viable comparison. If I had to choose one to start my franchise with, right now, it's easy. I'm taking Lebron. If I had to take one to add to my existing team, it's easy. I'm taking Lebron. If I had to take one to hit the game winning shot, it's easy. I'm taking Kobe. If I absolutely, 100%, needed a basket at any point in the game for any reason, I'm taking Kobe. If I needed my team to show some balls and actually claw and fight for every possession. Again, easy. I'm taking Kobe.

I don't know if I can personally pick a clear cut winner.

amos1er
06-16-2014, 08:20 PM
Barkley speaks truth on this one. Sorry Lebronites, your boy aint top ten and won't be until he proves he can win without the help of a super team. Or at least beat some decent competition. Again, there is no one in the current top ten of all time that has a losing record in the NBA finals. Lebron still has a ways to go. IMO, Lebron would need four more rings with a fairly stacked team to surpass Kobe. One more ring on a fairly stacked team to become top ten of all time. Thats just my opinion folks... Deal with it. An opinion that happens to be shared by the vastly respected majority of the basketball community. It's only on here that I see people claiming him to be top ten and the truly insanely foolish are claiming him top five. Give me a break.

bluefire7002
06-16-2014, 08:22 PM
Just trolling by the OP. He gets mad every time a Lebron thread is made and then he makes this.
Ring count doesn't make one player better than another. Its about statistics and game film. Lebron is easily better than Kobe.

How so? I agree ring count doesnt make one player better than another. But at this point Lebron is 2/5 in finals, BARELY... with a great built team most those years.

Kobe is still the better one on one player (in his prime) than Lebron. Lebron hasnt exactly made Bosh and Wade better either. Which is something I always heard (and somewhat agreed), how Lebron makes his teammates better. If you look at how good Bosh and Wade were before Lebron, they look barely like all-star players now. And its not because Bosh is washed up, put him on another team and the guy is still a great PF. Maybe wade due to his bad knees.

I don't think they are that far apart from each other, but people definitely live in the moment and forget what kobe was doing from 2000-2008/9

amos1er
06-16-2014, 08:23 PM
Just trolling by the OP. He gets mad every time a Lebron thread is made and then he makes this.
Ring count doesn't make one player better than another. Its about statistics and game film. Lebron is easily better than Kobe.

Opinion nonsense.

bluefire7002
06-16-2014, 08:27 PM
Barkley speaks truth on this one. Sorry Lebronites, your boy aint top ten and won't be until he proves he can win without the help of a super team. Or at least beat some decent competition. Again, there is no one in the current top ten of all time that has a losing record in the NBA finals. Lebron still has a ways to go. IMO, Lebron would need four more rings with a fairly stacked team to surpass Kobe. One more ring on a fairly stacked team to become top ten of all time. Thats just my opinion folks... Deal with it. An opinion that happens to be shared by the vastly respected majority of the basketball community. It's only on here that I see people claiming him to be top ten and the truly insanely foolish are claiming him top five. Give me a break.

I knew it was bad when they started claiming Lebron belong on the NBA mount rushmore nonsense.

IKnowHoops
06-16-2014, 08:31 PM
Opinion nonsense.

Oscar Robertson says Lebron is better than Jordan. Bird says Lebron will probably end up being better than everyone before him. Not just on PSD.

amos1er
06-16-2014, 08:32 PM
Nobody other than Laker homers is stupid enough to think Kobe is better than LeBron. Of course he thinks LeBron surpassed Kobe long ago.

False Dilemma fallacy.

I could easily counter and say that only Lebron nutthuggers think that Lebron has surpassed Kobe. Just because you add an insult to your already obvious fallacy, doesn't make it anymore true. Substance please.

IKnowHoops
06-16-2014, 08:32 PM
I knew it was bad when they started claiming Lebron belong on the NBA mount rushmore nonsense.

Scottie Pippen said Lebron could be better than Jordan.

jmaest
06-16-2014, 08:34 PM
I knew it was bad when they started claiming Lebron belong on the NBA mount rushmore nonsense.

I totally agree with this.

IMO the top ten is really, really hard to break into. Magic, Russell, Bird, Hakeem, Wilt, Jordan, Dr. J, Oscar, Kareem, Shaquille O'Neal. It's a tough group to break into. Tim Duncan--the one player who just does everything perfectly textbook--can make a great case for himself as can a bunch of other players throughout history.

I just can't see putting Lebron or Kobe in just there. But, perceptionally, I think Kobe is a heckuva lot closer to the top ten than Lebron is.

IKnowHoops
06-16-2014, 08:35 PM
http://blacksportsonline.com/home/2010/10/oscar-robinson-says-lebron-james-better-than-michael-jordan/

Oscar Robertson says Lebron is better than Jordan. I'll roll with Oscar, you roll with Charles. Kobe isn't in the discussion.

IKnowHoops
06-16-2014, 08:37 PM
I challenge anyone to find me a quote where a hall of fame basketball player said Kobe was better than Jordan.

Hotone1401
06-16-2014, 08:37 PM
He is already ahead of him by a good bit... Everyone but laker loves know and accept this

Or is only Laker haters that believe otherwise?

Hotone1401
06-16-2014, 08:38 PM
Scottie Pippen said Lebron could be better than Jordan.

It's clear you don't know anything about hoops.

Hotone1401
06-16-2014, 08:39 PM
http://blacksportsonline.com/home/2010/10/oscar-robinson-says-lebron-james-better-than-michael-jordan/

Oscar Robertson says Lebron is better than Jordan. I'll roll with Oscar, you roll with Charles. Kobe isn't in the discussion.

And MJ says he would take Kobe over Lebron. I'll roll with MJ on this one.

IKnowHoops
06-16-2014, 08:40 PM
Scottie Pippen says Lebron would destroy Jordan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpBozMDC2SI

Barkley says Lebron can be better than Mike
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7KDp5Woagw

bucketss
06-16-2014, 08:40 PM
False Dilemma fallacy.

I could easily counter and say that only Lebron nutthuggers think that Lebron has surpassed Kobe. Just because you add an insult to your already obvious fallacy, doesn't make it anymore true. Substance please.

you asking for substance is comical.

amos1er
06-16-2014, 08:40 PM
He is already ahead of him by a good bit... Everyone but laker loves know and accept this

Really, can you back this statement up with anything other than opinion... Where are the scientific polls to back up this claim of yours. I can name at least five posters off the top of my head that are not Laker fans who feel Lebron still has a long way to go to catch Kobe. Even Barkley feels this way and I would say he knows the game of basketball a lot better than you do. He is not a Laker fan either... Thus proving your original claim false. I don't even know why I bothered responding to this nonsense to begin with. I feel dumber for doing so in fact.

IKnowHoops
06-16-2014, 08:40 PM
And MJ says he would take Kobe over Lebron. I'll roll with MJ on this one.

Of course because he's not threatened by Kobe.

colinskik
06-16-2014, 08:41 PM
Oscar Robertson says Lebron is better than Jordan. Bird says Lebron will probably end up being better than everyone before him. Not just on PSD.

That's probably because Oscar Robertson played the game the way lebron plays it, so naturally he thinks he's a better player.

But as far as all around better basket player, I think Lebron is the better player. Kobe, however, is much closer to Jordan than Lebron is. Simply just the way the both played the game, Kobe is like a Jordan light.

IKnowHoops
06-16-2014, 08:41 PM
It's clear you don't know anything about hoops.

Its clear you talk big and...

IKnowHoops
06-16-2014, 08:43 PM
I challenge anyone to find me a quote where a hall of fame basketball player said Kobe was better than Jordan.

Still waiting

Hotone1401
06-16-2014, 08:43 PM
Of course because he's not threatened by Kobe.

And Oscar isn't threatened by Lebron.

Hotone1401
06-16-2014, 08:44 PM
Its clear you talk big and...

Well, it's clear you're a condescending ------- and know far less than what you think.

IKnowHoops
06-16-2014, 08:44 PM
And Oscar isn't threatened by Lebron.

Actually he said Bron was better than himself. Jordan did not say Kobe was better than himself so wrong again.

IKnowHoops
06-16-2014, 08:45 PM
Well, it's clear you're a condescending ------- and know far less than what you think.

You say I know nothing even though Im quoting someone who knows far more than you. Interesting.

Hotone1401
06-16-2014, 08:46 PM
Actually he said Bron was better than himself. Jordan did not say Kobe was better than himself so wrong again.

Please point out where I've been wrong?

Hotone1401
06-16-2014, 08:46 PM
You say I know nothing even though Im quoting someone who knows far more than you. Interesting.

Yet you don't quote anybody else that disagrees with you.

IKnowHoops
06-16-2014, 08:48 PM
Yet you don't quote anybody else that disagrees with you.

Like who?

Hotone1401
06-16-2014, 08:48 PM
Like who?

Many people. Go look it up.

IKnowHoops
06-16-2014, 08:49 PM
Please point out where I've been wrong?

Your wrong in thinking that Jordan saying Kobe is better than Bron, is like Big O saying Bron is better than Jordan and everyone who has ever played.

IKnowHoops
06-16-2014, 08:51 PM
Many people. Go look it up.

Thats your job. Im not trying to prove your point. I'm proving mine.

Hotone1401
06-16-2014, 08:51 PM
Your wrong in thinking that Jordan saying Kobe is better than Bron, is like Big O saying Bron is better than Jordan and everyone who has ever played.

What's the difference?? Both are claims made by two all-time greats comparing players of different generations. Tell me again where I've been wrong?

IKnowHoops
06-16-2014, 08:51 PM
I challenge anyone to find me a quote where a hall of fame basketball player said Kobe was better than Jordan.

Still waiting

Hotone1401
06-16-2014, 08:52 PM
Thats your job. Im not trying to prove your point. I'm proving mine.

Why is that my job? You're the one who is curious. Do your own research.

IKnowHoops
06-16-2014, 08:53 PM
What's the difference?? Both are claims made by two all-time greats comparing players of different generations. Tell me again where I've been wrong?

Because Jordan is making the statement protecting himself from people saying Lebron is better than him. Oscar is saying Bron is better than everyone including himself so he has no agenda to keep himself as the #1. So your wrong there. Again.

Hotone1401
06-16-2014, 08:53 PM
Still waiting

You're waiting for what? Nobody has made that claim. This thread is about Kobe & Lebron.

jmaest
06-16-2014, 08:53 PM
http://blacksportsonline.com/home/2010/10/oscar-robinson-says-lebron-james-better-than-michael-jordan/

Oscar Robertson says Lebron is better than Jordan. I'll roll with Oscar, you roll with Charles. Kobe isn't in the discussion.

You do know you picked the least credible player to choose, right? Oscar Robertson has long said that he doesn't like the praise Michael Jordan gets and he's long said he doesn't believe Jordan is the greatest ever. Kareem backed his boy Oscar by saying that Oscar, not Jordan, was the greatest ever.

Um but you know, since you like quoting a Hall of Famer, I will too. Here from Kareem's teammate and the man many consider to be the second best player ever:

http://www.complex.com/sports/2011/06/magic-johnson-calls-michael-jordan-the-greatest-player-ever

Bird thinks Michael is the GOAT:

http://larrybrownsports.com/basketball/larry-bird-lebron-james-michael-jordan/144672

I'm pretty sure those two guys are a lot less biased and a lot more credible than Oscar Robertson who, while an all-time top 10 player, was always bitter that he never received the accolades he thought he deserved.

http://www.historybanter.com/ill-never-forgive-them-oscar-robertson-comes-to-north-texas/

Hotone1401
06-16-2014, 08:55 PM
Because Jordan is making the statement protecting himself from people saying Lebron is better than him. Oscar is saying Bron is better than everyone including himself so he has no agenda to keep himself as the #1. So your wrong there. Again.

I love when fans think they can read between the lines and assume they know these people better than they know themselves.

IKnowHoops
06-16-2014, 08:55 PM
Why is that my job? You're the one who is curious. Do your own research.

Im not curios, your the one he said I wasn't posting anyone who disagrees with me. I don't care who disagrees nor would I waste time looking because enough import people such as Larry, Scottie, and Oscar agree. So you do your own research.

IKnowHoops
06-16-2014, 08:56 PM
I love when fans think they can read between the lines and assume they know these people better than they know themselves.

Like what you were doing to counteract my claim. Hypocrite too I see.

jmaest
06-16-2014, 08:56 PM
Because Jordan is making the statement protecting himself from people saying Lebron is better than him. Oscar is saying Bron is better than everyone including himself so he has no agenda to keep himself as the #1. So your wrong there. Again.

You're wrong. Oscar has an agenda and that is to prove that Jordan isn't the greatest ever. Oscar has long hated Jordan and his accolades. That's just his personality.

Plus, if we're being honest, just because Oscar believes whatever he wants to believe, doesn't make it true. There are actual facts that prove Jordan is a better player than both Oscar & Lebron.

Hotone1401
06-16-2014, 08:57 PM
Im not curios, your the one he said I wasn't posting anyone who disagrees with me. I don't care who disagrees nor would I waste time looking because enough import people such as Larry, Scottie, and Oscar agree. So you do your own research.

Go back and read your post. You're the one asking for it so I said go find it yourself.

Hotone1401
06-16-2014, 08:57 PM
Like what you were doing to counteract my claim. Hypocrite too I see.

The interesting thing is I never made any such claims. I'm just merely pointing out the fallacy in your claims.

kblo247
06-16-2014, 08:59 PM
Barkley changes his mind more than a woman. Dude was saying he couldn't see Lebron getting beat 4 times in a series and then he gets beat in 4 out of 5 games all blowouts of 15+ points a game.
Charles declared in 09 Kobe couldn't score 30 a night anymore lol. Then said it in 10 too. Its Charles. I agree with the sentiment that bron has catching up to do because Kobe's never been that bad in the fourth quarter of a finals, nor does he have a losing record, but I never got the chasing MJ for Bron. I mean the guy gave up 23 for a reason imo

nastynice
06-16-2014, 09:00 PM
catching his what

his jock strap

lebron will prob get there some day. But its pretty stupid compare a player who's played a full career vs a player who's still in his prime.

IKnowHoops
06-16-2014, 09:00 PM
You do know you picked the least credible player to choose, right? Oscar Robertson has long said that he doesn't like the praise Michael Jordan gets and he's long said he doesn't believe Jordan is the greatest ever. Kareem backed his boy Oscar by saying that Oscar, not Jordan, was the greatest ever.

Um but you know, since you like quoting a Hall of Famer, I will too. Here from Kareem's teammate and the man many consider to be the second best player ever:

http://www.complex.com/sports/2011/06/magic-johnson-calls-michael-jordan-the-greatest-player-ever

Bird thinks Michael is the GOAT:

http://larrybrownsports.com/basketball/larry-bird-lebron-james-michael-jordan/144672

I'm pretty sure those two guys are a lot less biased and a lot more credible than Oscar Robertson who, while an all-time top 10 player, was always bitter that he never received the accolades he thought he deserved.

http://www.historybanter.com/ill-never-forgive-them-oscar-robertson-comes-to-north-texas/

No problem with Bird saying that, because he also said Bron will probably end up being the GOAT.http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_rumors/view/183010-bird-annoints-lebron

IKnowHoops
06-16-2014, 09:01 PM
Charles declared in 09 Kobe couldn't score 30 a night anymore lol. Then said it in 10 too. Its Charles. I agree with the sentiment that bron has catching up to do because Kobe's never been that bad in the fourth quarter of a finals, nor does he have a losing record, but I never got the chasing MJ for Bron. I mean the guy gave up 23 for a reason imo

Kobe of game 7 against the Celtics in his last finals says hello.

IKnowHoops
06-16-2014, 09:03 PM
The interesting thing is I never made any such claims. I'm just merely pointing out the fallacy in your claims.

Actually you did. You said that Oscar isn't threatened by Lebron. You said that Oscar and Jordan were doing the same thing. So yes you did make claims. Forgetful, hypocritical...keep going.

jmaest
06-16-2014, 09:08 PM
No problem with Bird saying that, because he also said Bron will probably end up being the GOAT.http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_rumors/view/183010-bird-annoints-lebron

I think a lot of people HAD that opinion. I'm also fairly sure a lot of people no longer have that opinion now. Lebron has lots of problems as compared to other great players.

He's a "soft" 6'8 player who shies away from physicality. I remember watching this game live and seeing Lebron completely and totally puss out to Gasol:

http://youtu.be/K4U3CNELoGw

Second, Lebron doesn't have that "clutch", "killer instinct" psyche that Jordan has.

Third, Jordan's stat sheet is just better. Considering position and size, he's actually better across the board.

Lastly, Jordan's 6 titles are *his* 6 titles. You want to say he played with Pippen? I will counter that he actually *made* Pippen. Jordan may not be the GOAT. I think one can argue Magic is or Russell or Wilt. One can even argue Hakeem or Bird. One cannot argue Lebron, however. There's nothing there other than media hype to support the conversation.

amos1er
06-16-2014, 09:09 PM
you asking for substance is comical.

Sorry, but I see nothing convincing from any Lebronite on here proving that Lebron has indeed past Kobe. All I see is what I interpret to be blind homerism.

Hawkeye15
06-16-2014, 09:15 PM
do people really put any weight into what Barkley says? He is hilarious, and I respect his honesty, but cmon.

For me, LeBron is already above Kobe all time. He didn't need the 5 rings crap, his numbers take a pure dump on Kobe, and he has already won enough.

Now, for him to enter top 3-4, he does indeed need to win more.

amos1er
06-16-2014, 09:15 PM
I think a lot of people HAD that opinion. I'm also fairly sure a lot of people no longer have that opinion now. Lebron has lots of problems as compared to other great players.

He's a "soft" 6'8 player who shies away from physicality. I remember watching this game live and seeing Lebron completely and totally puss out to Gasol:

http://youtu.be/K4U3CNELoGw

Second, Lebron doesn't have that "clutch", "killer instinct" psyche that Jordan has.

Third, Jordan's stat sheet is just better. Considering position and size, he's actually better across the board.

Lastly, Jordan's 6 titles are *his* 6 titles. You want to say he played with Pippen? I will counter that he actually *made* Pippen. Jordan may not be the GOAT. I think one can argue Magic is or Russell or Wilt. One can even argue Hakeem or Bird. One cannot argue Lebron, however. There's nothing there other than media hype to support the conversation.

I've been saying that for years. These guys just can't convince anyone other than their rabid fan base of their obvious agenda. They have all been prematurely crowning Lebron since day one and most likely will be until the end of his career. No matter who comes forward to tell them all to calm down and that they are wrong, they will still press forward like a rabid dog with their beaten down agenda's regarding the most overrhyped and overrated athlete in history... Lebron James.

jmaest
06-16-2014, 09:16 PM
Sorry, but I see nothing convincing from any Lebronite on here proving that Lebron has indeed past Kobe. All I see is what I interpret to be blind homerism.

Well if we're talking all-time, how would we define it? In my post above I gave the nod to Kobe but if I had to quantify it statistically Lebron is "better" than Kobe. He's more efficient scoring wise, he's a better passer, and statistically better rebounder. He's certainly a better defender. Statistically speaking, in their primes, Lebron's stats do outshine Kobe.

Personally I think Kobe brings one thing to the table Lebron doesn't have and it's not measured on the stat sheet. But I think one can argue legitimately Lebron is "better". I may not agree with it but it's hard to say that a convincing argument cannot be made.

amos1er
06-16-2014, 09:19 PM
You're wrong. Oscar has an agenda and that is to prove that Jordan isn't the greatest ever. Oscar has long hated Jordan and his accolades. That's just his personality.

Plus, if we're being honest, just because Oscar believes whatever he wants to believe, doesn't make it true. There are actual facts that prove Jordan is a better player than both Oscar & Lebron.

I wouldn't waste my time debating with that guy. Trust me bro... It's a waste of time. Dude is obsessed with James and won't hear anything you have to say. His only point of reference is Big O who much like Lebron put up meaningless triple doubles wasn't really all that much else in terms of winning and everything else. Birds of a feather flock together. Only difference between Lebron and Big O is a **** ton more media hype for Lebron and Lebron formed a super team to chase down some rings and Big O didn't.

Oh and BTW... Mr. IKnowHoops predicted Michael Beasley to be the sixth man of the year this past season. Lol. Just shows you what kind of mad man your dealing with.

Raps08-09 Champ
06-16-2014, 09:20 PM
Well if we're talking all-time, how would we define it? In my post above I gave the nod to Kobe but if I had to quantify it statistically Lebron is "better" than Kobe. He's more efficient scoring wise, he's a better passer, and statistically better rebounder. He's certainly a better defender. Statistically speaking, in their primes, Lebron's stats do outshine Kobe.

Personally I think Kobe brings one thing to the table Lebron doesn't have and it's not measured on the stat sheet. But I think one can argue legitimately Lebron is "better". I may not agree with it but it's hard to say that a convincing argument cannot be made.

Stats is merely the data you gather based on a player's production. So production wise, Lebron is better. Accolade wise, Kobe beats him (in terms of rings at least, though he's tied him in FMVP and beat him in MVP). Talent is based on eye test with support from stats and accolades. It's basically what you prefer.

amos1er
06-16-2014, 09:23 PM
Well if we're talking all-time, how would we define it? In my post above I gave the nod to Kobe but if I had to quantify it statistically Lebron is "better" than Kobe. He's more efficient scoring wise, he's a better passer, and statistically better rebounder. He's certainly a better defender. Statistically speaking, in their primes, Lebron's stats do outshine Kobe.

Personally I think Kobe brings one thing to the table Lebron doesn't have and it's not measured on the stat sheet. But I think one can argue legitimately Lebron is "better". I may not agree with it but it's hard to say that a convincing argument cannot be made.

I can agree with what you just said. I have said for years that Lebron is statistically one of the greatest the game has ever seen. He just doesn't have much else going for him in terms of intangibles and killer instinct. I also believe that in terms of legacy and impact in terms of winning, he doesn't yet belong in the top ten. He still has more to prove IMO. Legacy to me is not even debatable and is a joke to debate at this point, but in terms of peak... That could be debatable, though I give Kobe the edge due to the stuff I already mentioned above.

kblo247
06-16-2014, 09:28 PM
Kobe of game 7 against the Celtics in his last finals says hello.
Bron averaged 3.6 ppg on 41% shooting for the series in the fourth.

In game 7 fourth, Kobe scored 10, got an assist, a steal, and like 5rebs the last 9 mins while defending rondo

amos1er
06-16-2014, 09:28 PM
do people really put any weight into what Barkley says? He is hilarious, and I respect his honesty, but cmon.

For me, LeBron is already above Kobe all time. He didn't need the 5 rings crap, his numbers take a pure dump on Kobe, and he has already won enough.

Now, for him to enter top 3-4, he does indeed need to win more.

Thats your opinion and I respect it, but it is an opinion that is in the vast minority. Most experts disagree with everything you have said above. No disrespect, but I do take their opinions more credibly than yours. Though I will say that you are on of the more objective Laker haters on this site. In terms of legacy, I just don't see a logical argument that can convince me that James is a top ten player as of yet.

Raps08-09 Champ
06-16-2014, 09:31 PM
Thats your opinion and I respect it, but it is an opinion that is in the vast minority. Most experts disagree with everything you have said above. No disrespect, but I do take their opinions more credibly than yours. Though I will say that you are on of the more objective Laker haters on this site. In terms of legacy, I just don't see a logical argument that can convince me that James is a top ten player as of yet.

There's really no "expert" into this type of stuff. The experts are outsiders, if any, not NBA superstars. Those guys are biased as hell.

amos1er
06-16-2014, 09:31 PM
Bron averaged 3.6 ppg on 41% shooting for the series in the fourth.

In game 7 fourth, Kobe scored 10, got an assist, a steal, and like 5rebs the last 9 mins while defending rondo

Owned.

Hawkeye15
06-16-2014, 09:34 PM
Thats your opinion and I respect it, but it is an opinion that is in the vast minority. Most experts disagree with everything you have said above. No disrespect, but I do take their opinions more credibly than yours. Though I will say that you are on of the more objective Laker haters on this site. In terms of legacy, I just don't see a logical argument that can convince me that James is a top ten player as of yet.

most experts? What experts? Ex-players? Because anyone who is analytical understands James has been superior to Kobe's best years for a long, long time.

I mean, look at your sig. We agree on everything not Kobe/LeBron related, but dude, you are so incredibly biased towards Kobe it's unreal.

If I am a coach/GM, and I get to pick to have either Kobe or LeBron for their career, it is far easier to win with LeBron. Unfortunately, he wasn't given the continued roster support Kobe was throughout his career. People love to bring up his so called "superteam". Yeah, that worked for what, 1 year? How many great teams has Kobe played with? 8? 9?

Raps08-09 Champ
06-16-2014, 09:36 PM
Bron averaged 3.6 ppg on 41% shooting for the series in the fourth.

In game 7 fourth, Kobe scored 10, got an assist, a steal, and like 5rebs the last 9 mins while defending rondo

That's like 1 quarter. Not to mention the 4th for Lebron was already a blowout since the team couldn't stand up to the Spurs and it was a blowout by then.

amos1er
06-16-2014, 09:37 PM
There's really no "expert" into this type of stuff. The experts are outsiders, if any, not NBA superstars. Those guys are biased as hell.

I have yet to see anyone I consider credible and non bias convince me that Lebron has passed Kobe in terms of legacy. Though I have seen a number of people I would consider credible say the opposite... That Lebron still has more to prove. I also have yet to see a convincing argument to prove me or any of them wrong. Mostly all I see is ad hominem insults and opinion arguments made by people who I consider to be extremely biased attempting to convince me otherwise.

jmaest
06-16-2014, 09:37 PM
Stats is merely the data you gather based on a player's production. So production wise, Lebron is better. Accolade wise, Kobe beats him (in terms of rings at least, though he's tied him in FMVP and beat him in MVP). Talent is based on eye test with support from stats and accolades. It's basically what you prefer.

I sort of kind of agree but not totally. I think stats should, in some way, support the "eye test". For example, we keep talking about Michael Jordan for some reason BUT if you look at his stats with the Bulls they definitely support the "hype". 50% from the field for his career. 6 Rebounds a game, 5 assists a game. Best PPG scorer of all time. Best Playoff PPG scorer of all time. Highest Player Efficiency Rating of all time. 49% from the field in the playoffs all time. The stats definitely support the eye test.

The intangibles are there too: 6 Titles, 6 Finals MVP's, a highlight reel of just clutch shot after clutch shot, a friggin book about beating him up as a "defensive blue print" about him, his career parallels the most physically imposing era in NBA history, etc.

Interestingly there are some stats about Lebron that support the "eye test" too. 2nd highest PER of all time is pretty impressive and speaks to how his game of scoring & facilitating is really right up there with some of the best ever.

Raps08-09 Champ
06-16-2014, 09:37 PM
most experts? What experts? Ex-players? Because anyone who is analytical understands James has been superior to Kobe's best years for a long, long time.

I mean, look at your sig. We agree on everything not Kobe/LeBron related, but dude, you are so incredibly biased towards Kobe it's unreal.

If I am a coach/GM, and I get to pick to have either Kobe or LeBron for their career, it is far easier to win with LeBron. Unfortunately, he wasn't given the continued roster support Kobe was throughout his career. People love to bring up his so called "superteam". Yeah, that worked for what, 1 year? How many great teams has Kobe played with? 8? 9?

Exactly. Kobe played on a super team for 3 years but because it was created differently, it is not held against him or Shaq. Stupid.

Raps08-09 Champ
06-16-2014, 09:39 PM
I sort of kind of agree but not totally. I think stats should, in some way, support the "eye test". For example, we keep talking about Michael Jordan for some reason BUT if you look at his stats with the Bulls they definitely support the "hype". 50% from the field for his career. 6 Rebounds a game, 5 assists a game. Best PPG scorer of all time. Best Playoff PPG scorer of all time. Highest Player Efficiency Rating of all time. 49% from the field in the playoffs all time. The stats definitely support the eye test.

The intangibles are there too: 6 Titles, 6 Finals MVP's, a highlight reel of just clutch shot after clutch shot, a friggin book about beating him up as a "defensive blue print" about him, his career parallels the most physically imposing era in NBA history, etc.

Interestingly there are some stats about Lebron that support the "eye test" too. 2nd highest PER of all time is pretty impressive and speaks to how his game of scoring & facilitating is really right up there with some of the best ever.

Yea, stats and individual accolades are suppose to support the eye test in terms of talent. Winning is a team thing, though you can definitely place weight on who contributed more to the win (or loss)

rocket
06-16-2014, 09:47 PM
/thread
http://i.imgur.com/9yycNz1.jpg

kblo247
06-16-2014, 09:51 PM
That's like 1 quarter. Not to mention the 4th for Lebron was already a blowout since the team couldn't stand up to the Spurs and it was a blowout by then.

He got beat by the biggest margin in finals history. They had it down to 14 last game and he didn't take over. They had it down in game 3.

I mean I got news for you, it's not uncommon for guys to force teams back vs the spurs. Kobe did it countless times down bigger margins. He did in 04, game 4 down 20 something when he got off the plane from court and dipped 40. He brought them almost all the way back in 03 when they were down in game 5 and they win it if Horry doesn't miss the 3 for the game, and he was out there playing with Pargo and the lakers second unit. He led the comeback vs the towers in 02, go check the game in May where he brought them back and capped it off by wrestling the rebound that decided the game and comeback from both Robinson and Duncan for the win.

We grew up watching TMac drop 13 in basically a minute vs San Antonio.

Bron just didn't step the **** up in the 4th

jmaest
06-16-2014, 09:52 PM
I can agree with what you just said. I have said for years that Lebron is statistically one of the greatest the game has ever seen. He just doesn't have much else going for him in terms of intangibles and killer instinct. I also believe that in terms of legacy and impact in terms of winning, he doesn't yet belong in the top ten. He still has more to prove IMO. Legacy to me is not even debatable and is a joke to debate at this point, but in terms of peak... That could be debatable, though I give Kobe the edge due to the stuff I already mentioned above.

So you basically summarized my feelings fairly well. Lebron is a stat machine. A great talent and he does a great job filling out the stat sheet BUT he does lack intangibles, IMO, and that has to be part of the conversation.

Lebron isn't "tough". He doesn't have "balls". He will quit against adversity. He would much rather pass in a big spot than shoot. He has a sense of entitlement other great players had to earn.

There are things on the court that frustrate me as well but that might just be nitpicking. I hate that he has no post game. I hate how much he cries for EVERY call or how he's NEVER committed a foul.

And, honestly, to me the one biggest negative against Lebron that really keeps him out of the all time great conversation is his flopping.

I cannot, in good conscience, give Lebron too much credibility with the amount of flopping he's done in his career. That, contrary to youthful opinion, is not something the NBA ever tolerated until recently. Yes it was something that was probably introduced by the European influx of players over the last decade or so but no one is better at it than the Miami Heat and Lebron James.

majmarcus
06-16-2014, 09:56 PM
You're wrong. Oscar has an agenda and that is to prove that Jordan isn't the greatest ever. Oscar has long hated Jordan and his accolades. That's just his personality.

Plus, if we're being honest, just because Oscar believes whatever he wants to believe, doesn't make it true. There are actual facts that prove Jordan is a better player than both Oscar & Lebron.

I wouldn't waste my time debating with that guy. Trust me bro... It's a waste of time. Dude is obsessed with James and won't hear anything you have to say. His only point of reference is Big O who much like Lebron put up meaningless triple doubles wasn't really all that much else in terms of winning and everything else. Birds of a feather flock together. Only difference between Lebron and Big O is a **** ton more media hype for Lebron and Lebron formed a super team to chase down some rings and Big O didn't.

Oh and BTW... Mr. IKnowHoops predicted Michael Beasley to be the sixth man of the year this past season. Lol. Just shows you what kind of mad man your dealing with.

He's not the only one obsessed with James. See Hawkeye for further details. I swear this mofo lives at the stat sheet and looks for any and I mean ANY excuse to bash/dumb down Kobe and/or elevate Lebron. Then he got the sac to tell someone else they are overly biased with Kobe. Bwahahaha...stfu please!!!!

Raps08-09 Champ
06-16-2014, 09:58 PM
He got beat by the biggest margin in finals history. They had it down to 14 last game and he didn't take over. They had it down in game 3.

I mean I got news for you, it's not uncommon for guys to force teams back vs the spurs. Kobe did it countless times down bigger margins. He did in 04, game 4 down 20 something when he got off the plane from court and dipped 40. He brought them almost all the way back in 03 when they were down in game 5 and they win it if Horry doesn't miss the 3 for the game, and he was out there playing with Pargo and the lakers second unit. He led the comeback vs the towers in 02, go check the game in May where he brought them back and capped it off by wrestling the rebound that decided the game and comeback from both Robinson and Duncan for the win.

We grew up watching TMac drop 13 in basically a minute vs San Antonio.

Bron just didn't step the **** up in the 4th

He didn't get beat, the Heat did. Though if you want to weigh it for each player, how much weight do you think the blame should go to him considering how each player and coach played?

WadeKobe
06-16-2014, 10:04 PM
Lebron passed Kobe a season or two ago. Move along.

jmaest
06-16-2014, 10:07 PM
He didn't get beat, the Heat did. Though if you want to weigh it for each player, how much weight do you think the blame should go to him considering how each player and coach played?

Well the largest percentage of time with the ball in your hands should equate to the largest percentage of praise when you win and largest percentage of blame when you lose.

I think that's only fair. Since Lebron dominates the ball when he's on the floor how do you not acknowledge his failure as both a facilitator and scorer here? Yes he put up 28 points a game but less than 4 assists does show that the ball didn't move as much as it usually does--considering he averaged 7 assists for his career and just over 6 during the season. I think Lebron has blame he can endure.

Raps08-09 Champ
06-16-2014, 10:10 PM
Well the largest percentage of time with the ball in your hands should equate to the largest percentage of praise when you win and largest percentage of blame when you lose.

I think that's only fair. Since Lebron dominates the ball when he's on the floor how do you not acknowledge his failure as both a facilitator and scorer here? Yes he put up 28 points a game but less than 4 assists does show that the ball didn't move as much as it usually does--considering he averaged 7 assists for his career and just over 6 during the season. I think Lebron has blame he can endure.

Really? I think it should be based on production and actual impact.

Lebron offensively played as well as he could. Facilitating wise, not his best, but his teammates weren't exactly scoring. Defense, he took a big step back. Out of the 15 players and the coaching staff, the blame on him compared to the rest is minuscule. You give him like a small blame as an individual. Bosh and Wade take most of the blame considering they are superstars who played like Mo Williams and Drew Gooden.

jerellh528
06-16-2014, 10:11 PM
Really? I think it should be based on production and actual impact.

Yeah, that impact from bron was pretty substantial.

kblo247
06-16-2014, 10:12 PM
He didn't get beat, the Heat did. Though if you want to weigh it for each player, how much weight do you think the blame should go to him considering how each player and coach played?

On each player and coach

25 Bron
25 Spo
30 Wade
20 bosh

I felt bosh should've got the least blame because they really have ****ed up how they use him, and that's as much on Bron as it is Spo. Bron historically hampers guys stats, he doesn't maximize bigs as much as he does shooters, and that's on him that bosh can't play in the paint and be used like how other bigs are. Spo likewise has him all the way out playing like Horry at the 3 peat line. They share the blame for the faults of bosh.

Flash lost his speed force. Plain and simple, he's a mere human, and not a superior skilled one either, which is on him for not developing a jumper.

I still give Bron some fault. He didn't even try to comeback those fourth quarters, he was awful and passive. His vaunted defense wasn't game changing as they lost by the biggest margin of any team in history, and he didn't adapt. Kawhi let him do his dribble, dribble drive and he either scored or turned it over way too much. He had more turnovers than assists for most the series. As much as he has the ball its unacceptable. And don't get me started on Bron not doing anything off the ball to make SA counter which is why Diaw got away as the secondary defender after Leonard, Bron didn't cut, didn't post, didn't come off screens, and didn't do anything that historically I've seen guys like KD do or Kobe for year after year do to break pops defense down. He didn't adapt, just kept trying to play his way and while he got his, he was as much a problem with his turnover numbers as his teammates when it came to controlling tempo


You can point out role guys etc but to me it starts at the top, the top handles there's and the grunts will get in line. Saw that with the Phil/Kobe/Shaq teams in 02 where the role guys had less in the tank but the top took care of theirs and it trickled down. So I'm not blaming Chalmers, Allen, Lewis, bird, Haslem

Raps08-09 Champ
06-16-2014, 10:14 PM
Yeah, that impact from bron was pretty substantial.

Compared to everyone else on his team (not against the competition), yea it was pretty substantial.

Raps08-09 Champ
06-16-2014, 10:18 PM
On each player and coach

25 Bron
25 Spo
30 Wade
20 bosh

I felt bosh should've got the least blame because they really have ****ed up how they use him, and that's as much on Bron as it is Spo. Bron historically hampers guys stats, he doesn't maximize bigs as much as he does shooters, and that's on him that bosh can't play in the paint and be used like how other bigs are. Spo likewise has him all the way out playing like Horry at the 3 peat line. They share the blame for the faults of bosh.

Flash lost his speed force. Plain and simple, he's a mere human, and not a superior skilled one either, which is on him for not developing a jumper.

I still give Bron some fault. He didn't even try to comeback those fourth quarters, he was awful and passive. His vaunted defense wasn't game changing as they lost by the biggest margin of any team in history, and he didn't adapt. Kawhi let him do his dribble, dribble drive and he either scored or turned it over way too much. He had more turnovers than assists for most the series. As much as he has the ball its unacceptable. And don't get me started on Bron not doing anything off the ball to make SA counter which is why Diaw got away as the secondary defender after Leonard, Bron didn't cut, didn't post, didn't come off screens, and didn't do anything that historically I've seen guys like KD do or Kobe for year after year do to break pops defense down. He didn't adapt, just kept trying to play his way and while he got his, he was as much a problem with his turnover numbers as his teammates when it came to controlling tempo

Of course you give Lebron fault. 25% is probably excessive compared to how everyone else on his team responded. Lebron didn't play like a hero, but the drop in his game is nowhere near how Wade and Bosh played, or how Spo got outcoached.

Not to mention the Spurs alone were the better team already. Replace Lebron with anyone and whoever you replace him with couldn't make up what the supporting cast lacked (Dwyane Wade who is supposed to be a star played pedestrian with a +10% drop in his FG%). Saying that X player wouldn't have lost and 'willed' their team to beat the Spurs is just an insult and trying to take away from what the Spurs did.

jerellh528
06-16-2014, 10:20 PM
Compared to everyone else on his team (not against the competition), yea it was pretty substantial.

The supposed best player in the league with the best team in the conference isn't supposed to get beaten down 4-1 by the worst finals margin of victory in nba history. He could've done more, he performed worst than he does in the regular season, not better. He could've been a better leader, fired up his team, went off for 50, something. It was great watching how easily and readily Lebron accepted defeat. It was as if he didn't even care because he was thinking about the next stat studded team he's goin to next. His body language was terrible, he isn't a winner. Pure and simple. His talent allows him to achieve a lot of fluffy stats on gifted teams, but he doesn't have a winners mentality.

QueensG_718
06-16-2014, 10:20 PM
Exactly I feel like Kobes greatness gets overlooked way too often. Y'all forgot. I hardly agree with barely but I 100% agree with him on this.

Raps08-09 Champ
06-16-2014, 10:23 PM
The supposed best player in the league with the best team in the conference isn't supposed to get beaten down 4-1 by the worst finals margin of victory in nba history. He could've done more, he performed worst than he does in the regular season, not better. He could've been a better leader, fired up his team, went off for 50, something. It was great watching how easily and readily Lebron accepted defeat. It was as if he didn't even care because he was thinking about the next stat studded team he's goin to next. His body language was terrible, he isn't a winner. Pure and simple. His talent allows him to achieve a lot of gifted teams, but he doesn't have a winners mentality.

He didn't get beat down. The whole team did. They got beat down bad, no doubt. But why do we blame it on him alone? I go around the forum and people don't say "The Heat got beat bad" but instead say "Lebron got beat bad". Proportionately, no **** deserves blame, but no person could overcome what the Spurs did. Replace Lebron with anyone and still get the same champions.

jmaest
06-16-2014, 10:25 PM
Really? I think it should be based on production and actual impact.

Okay so let's discuss it. Let's actually quantify production.

Lebron average 28 points per game but only 4 assists per game. He controls the ball roughly 75% of the time he's on the floor. Only 4 assists, down from his normal 6 is painful. He didn't score more than his regular season average enough to offset the dip in assists.

Also, I believe he only averaged 3 points in the 4th quarter and 5 in the third for the series. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but that equates to 20 points in the first half of every game. So where'd he go for the second half of these games?

I just don't see how Lebron doesn't take a hit for this.

jerellh528
06-16-2014, 10:26 PM
He didn't get beat down. The whole team did. They got beat down bad, no doubt. But why do we blame it on him alone? I go around the forum and people don't say "The Heat got beat bad" but instead say "Lebron got beat bad". Proportionately, no **** deserves blame, but no person could overcome what the Spurs did. Replace Lebron with anyone and still get the same champions.

Nobody is blaming him alone. But the people that claim the loss was no fault of his is the real problem here. If your team goes out that bad and your level of play doesn't even exceed that of the regular season, I don't think he left it all out on the floor.

jerellh528
06-16-2014, 10:26 PM
Okay so let's discuss it. Let's actually quantify production.

Lebron average 28 points per game but only 4 assists per game. He controls the ball roughly 75% of the time he's on the floor. Only 4 assists, down from his normal 6 is painful. He didn't score more than his regular season average enough to offset the dip in assists.

Also, I believe he only averaged 3 points in the 4th quarter and 5 in the third for the series. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but that equates to 20 points in the first half of every game. So where'd he go for the second half of these games?

I just don't see how Lebron doesn't take a hit for this.

He also averaged more turnovers than assists

Raps08-09 Champ
06-16-2014, 10:29 PM
Okay so let's discuss it. Let's actually quantify production.

Lebron average 28 points per game but only 4 assists per game. He controls the ball roughly 75% of the time he's on the floor. Only 4 assists, down from his normal 6 is painful. He didn't score more than his regular season average enough to offset the dip in assists.

Also, I believe he only averaged 3 points in the 4th quarter and 5 in the third for the series. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but that equates to 20 points in the first half of every game. So where'd he go for the second half of these games?

I just don't see how Lebron doesn't take a hit for this.

I never said he shouldn't take a hit. I said the blame is proportional.

I also said that Spurs had the perfect game plan. Just so perfect no other player in place of Lebron would've made that big of a difference.

majmarcus
06-16-2014, 10:32 PM
Compared to everyone else on his team (not against the competition), yea it was pretty substantial.

The supposed best player in the league with the best team in the conference isn't supposed to get beaten down 4-1 by the worst finals margin of victory in nba history. He could've done more, he performed worst than he does in the regular season, not better. He could've been a better leader, fired up his team, went off for 50, something. It was great watching how easily and readily Lebron accepted defeat. It was as if he didn't even care because he was thinking about the next stat studded team he's goin to next. His body language was terrible, he isn't a winner. Pure and simple. His talent allows him to achieve a lot of fluffy stats on gifted teams, but he doesn't have a winners mentality.

This

jmaest
06-16-2014, 10:32 PM
He didn't get beat down. The whole team did. They got beat down bad, no doubt. But why do we blame it on him alone? I go around the forum and people don't say "The Heat got beat bad" but instead say "Lebron got beat bad". Proportionately, no **** deserves blame, but no person could overcome what the Spurs did. Replace Lebron with anyone and still get the same champions.

I disagree. Lebron absolutely quit. He always does. He showed no heart. He took the points San Antonio gave him. Where was his will on the game? Kobe would've taken 70 shots a game if necessary. Jordan would have been ripping his team on the sidelines and absolutely scoring a ton while shutting someone down completely.

You're just giving Lebron a pass and that's wrong. Bird scored 22 to propel his team to a Finals victory with a bad back. Magic played Center to lead his team to a Finals victory. Hakeem Olajuwon actually had more steals than 2/3 of the guards in the league because he was hustling along the passing lanes as a center--unheard of.

None of the all-time greats ever suffered a loss like this because none of them had a lack of heart like this.

I agree, the Heat lost. I agree, the Heat as a team has no heart. They played with a lack of effort and lack of passion. Again, no heart. BUT all of that comes from leadership. Lebron is the leader. That's where they got it from. There's simply no way around that.

bucketss
06-16-2014, 10:32 PM
He didn't get beat down. The whole team did. They got beat down bad, no doubt. But why do we blame it on him alone? I go around the forum and people don't say "The Heat got beat bad" but instead say "Lebron got beat bad". Proportionately, no **** deserves blame, but no person could overcome what the Spurs did. Replace Lebron with anyone and still get the same champions.

yep , i mean lebron was 1 on 5 out there most of the series as well - btw the guy u quoted said a two time nba champion is not a winner, i wouldn't even quote him anymore LOL but we all enjoy a little banter ;)

Raps08-09 Champ
06-16-2014, 10:33 PM
Nobody is blaming him alone.

Have you seen the NBA forum? Majority of the blame has been against Lebron. When you have comments like "Dirk and Durant would've won" or that "this affects his legacy greatly", you're putting great emphasis on the loss towards Lebron.



But the people that claim the loss was no fault of his is the real problem here. If your team goes out that bad and your level of play doesn't even exceed that of the regular season, I don't think he left it all out on the floor.

Those people are just as wrong as the people who place great emphasis on it being Lebron's fault. Proportionately, his share of the blame is nowhere near what people are making it out to be. He's getting the same flack as back in 2011 (hen he played like horseshit and did deserve the hate).

kblo247
06-16-2014, 10:36 PM
Of course you give Lebron fault. 25% is probably excessive compared to how everyone else on his team responded. Lebron didn't play like a hero, but the drop in his game is nowhere near how Wade and Bosh played, or how Spo got outcoached.

Not to mention the Spurs alone were the better team already. Replace Lebron with anyone and whoever you replace him with couldn't make up what the supporting cast lacked (Dwyane Wade who is supposed to be a star played pedestrian with a +10% drop in his FG%). Saying that X player wouldn't have lost and 'willed' their team to beat the Spurs is just an insult and trying to take away from what the Spurs did.

I still say someone can get more out of bosh than Bron gets. That's my opinion

Raps08-09 Champ
06-16-2014, 10:36 PM
I disagree. Lebron absolutely quit. He always does. He showed no heart. He took the points San Antonio gave him. Where was his will on the game? Kobe would've taken 70 shots a game if necessary. Jordan would have been ripping his team on the sidelines and absolutely scoring a ton while shutting someone down completely.

You're just giving Lebron a pass and that's wrong. Bird scored 22 to propel his team to a Finals victory with a bad back. Magic played Center to lead his team to a Finals victory. Hakeem Olajuwon actually had more steals than 2/3 of the guards in the league because he was hustling along the passing lanes as a center--unheard of.

None of the all-time greats ever suffered a loss like this because none of them had a lack of heart like this.

I agree, the Heat lost. I agree, the Heat as a team has no heart. They played with a lack of effort and lack of passion. Again, no heart. BUT all of that comes from leadership. Lebron is the leader. That's where they got it from. There's simply no way around that.

I'm not arguing his will to win over other players. But let's not act like Super Kobe or Jordan with their "will to win" was going to get them the title. I'm saying even with those players (whether or not they have more will than Lebron), it wouldn't have carried them over the Spurs (who was a team on a mission).

I'm not giving Lebron a free pass at all. I'm giving him a fair shake of blame

bucketss
06-16-2014, 10:37 PM
Okay so let's discuss it. Let's actually quantify production.

Lebron average 28 points per game but only 4 assists per game. He controls the ball roughly 75% of the time he's on the floor. Only 4 assists, down from his normal 6 is painful. He didn't score more than his regular season average enough to offset the dip in assists.

Also, I believe he only averaged 3 points in the 4th quarter and 5 in the third for the series. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but that equates to 20 points in the first half of every game. So where'd he go for the second half of these games?

I just don't see how Lebron doesn't take a hit for this.

the dip in assists probably has something to do with the supporting casts performance, what can he do if guys won't make shots? .

also to the 4th quarter performances, lebron had a cramp in game 1 which took him out - game 2 he scored 8 in the 4th, next three games miami got stomped where the games were all over by the time the 4th rolled along, you should also check how many minutes he played in each 4th i bet its not a lot.

Raps08-09 Champ
06-16-2014, 10:40 PM
I still say someone can get more out of bosh than Bron gets. That's my opinion

Then that's a flaw on how the team is built, not on an individual player. You can only blame players so much for not being able to play together. If you put Kobe and Carmelo on the same team, I'm not going to give enough of a blame to either guy because they are in that situation. Bosh is definitely better than how he's played, but I can't "blame" it on anyone. I acknowledge players can't play together, but I'm not going to hold it against anyone.

bucketss
06-16-2014, 10:48 PM
I still say someone can get more out of bosh than Bron gets. That's my opinion

your'e right but i don't think lebron is hurting bosh game, it has more to do with wade being the 2nd option.

kblo247
06-16-2014, 10:51 PM
Then that's a flaw on how the team is built, not on an individual player. You can only blame players so much for not being able to play together. If you put Kobe and Carmelo on the same team, I'm not going to give enough of a blame to either guy because they are in that situation. Bosh is definitely better than how he's played, but I can't "blame" it on anyone. I acknowledge players can't play together, but I'm not going to hold it against anyone.
My disagreement comes from this. Say what you will about Kobe, but he and Pau clicked and did so a total different way from Kobe/Bynum, Kobe/odom, Kobe/Shaq because Kobe adapted into a pnr to maximize Pau with no camp from day one.

To me I've yet to see Bron truly pull back some of his comfort to make another guy effective. He can make you look great at doing what he wants you to do, catch and shoot, but I think if they had figured out how to use some of Boshs Toronto game they would be even better.

To me that's Brons biggest flaw, he's an all time great specimen and freak player but he never gives up his approach and what he likes to do to make guys comfortable. I think of Hughes who shared a ball with Jamison and arenas but never got comfortable around Bron fully or Z who changed up his style completely like bosh has.

I'm not saying bosh is an all time dominant big, but neither was Pau, in fact Bosh was more accomplished than Pau when Kobe got him, yet we have never seen Bosh truly utilized right because Bron won't adapt and it has to be Bron since he always has the ball

Tony_Starks
06-16-2014, 10:51 PM
Lebron isn't catching Kobe. Period. If he plays his cards right he MAY catch Bird. Maybe.....

Raps08-09 Champ
06-16-2014, 10:52 PM
your'e right but i don't think lebron is hurting bosh game, it has more to do with wade being the 2nd option.

It does to some extent since Bosh's main tools are his scoring ability. They made Bosh into a 3 point shooter to accommodate Lebron, though that's because Wade can't shoot at all. So I mean they did have to make Bosh adapt his game a bit. Though it's hard to blame it on Lebron or Bosh for trying to work things out with what they are given.

NBA_Starter
06-16-2014, 10:53 PM
Chuck is always talking.

Tony_Starks
06-16-2014, 10:54 PM
The supposed best player in the league with the best team in the conference isn't supposed to get beaten down 4-1 by the worst finals margin of victory in nba history. He could've done more, he performed worst than he does in the regular season, not better. He could've been a better leader, fired up his team, went off for 50, something. It was great watching how easily and readily Lebron accepted defeat. It was as if he didn't even care because he was thinking about the next stat studded team he's goin to next. His body language was terrible, he isn't a winner. Pure and simple. His talent allows him to achieve a lot of fluffy stats on gifted teams, but he doesn't have a winners mentality.

That part.

clehmun
06-16-2014, 10:54 PM
Remember a couple of years ago when people said Wade already passed Kobe as well? Yea.

Part of Kobe's "body of accomplishment" is his longevity. Close to 15 years of dominance as a Top 3 player in the league. Maybe you can argue that in those 15 years, not once was he the clear cut best player in the league but give him credit for putting himself in the conversation for 2-3 generations now.
From penny hardaway, iverson, shaq, duncan, webber, KG, vince carter, mcgrady, paul pierce, wade, lebron, james harden, durant... the list goes on. Hell, remember gilbert arenas back in 2005-2007, after a couple of his buzzer beaters and averaging close to 30 a night, some people were ready to put him ahead of kobe as well. Now i'm not comparing wade or lebron to an one hit wonder like Arenas, but I'm saying this is what Kobe had to go through. With the exception of Tim Duncan, none of those players i mentioned above were able to outlast Kobe (they were just great for a short period ie. hardaway, VC, mcgrady, wade), or they're still in their primes working on their resume (Lebron, Durant, Harden) or kobe just simply outlasted their careers (iverson, shaq, KG, webber, pierce).

These are some of the players Kobe had to fight the "best in the league" title with, and it wasn't until the injury he suffered last year where people started to forget about him. Just remember how great kobe was, and remember how long his greatness lasted and appreciate it.

jmaest
06-16-2014, 10:56 PM
the dip in assists probably has something to do with the supporting casts performance, what can he do if guys won't make shots? .

also to the 4th quarter performances, lebron had a cramp in game 1 which took him out - game 2 he scored 8 in the 4th, next three games miami got stomped where the games were all over by the time the 4th rolled along, you should also check how many minutes he played in each 4th i bet its not a lot.

only 5 in the 3rd though?

amos1er
06-16-2014, 10:57 PM
most experts? What experts? Ex-players? Because anyone who is analytical understands James has been superior to Kobe's best years for a long, long time.

Nearly all of them and now even Barkley who has been a long time Lebron supporter has came out publicly and said the same. The only person I have heard who thinks that Lebron is ahead of Kobe currently in the media is Simmons. No coincidence that he is also one of the biggest Kobe/Laker haters of this generation and an avid Boston fan. Think we know how credible his opinion is.


I mean, look at your sig. We agree on everything not Kobe/LeBron related, but dude, you are so incredibly biased towards Kobe it's unreal.

I do have a bias yes, but that does not disqualify me from making valid points and pointing out the obvious.


If I am a coach/GM, and I get to pick to have either Kobe or LeBron for their career, it is far easier to win with LeBron. Unfortunately, he wasn't given the continued roster support Kobe was throughout his career. People love to bring up his so called "superteam". Yeah, that worked for what, 1 year? How many great teams has Kobe played with? 8? 9?

I don't know how you can say it's easier to win with Lebron... I can't really see prime Kobe losing any of those 4 years with Miami. Perhaps it's mostly a match up thing that is the basis of my argument as Kobe has matched up well against the Spurs throughout his career, but Kobe would never had choked that hard in 2011... 2012 was a gimme against the Thunder... 2013 and 2014, I believe that Kobe would have not only gotten more from his teammates, he would have owned the Spurs as he did in years past. Kobe put up better numbers than Lebron against far better competition including the Spurs over the years... Also with far less help. I have no doubt that Kobe would have been able to handle the Spurs with relative ease as he has done in years past. Kobe took down a much tougher Spurs team back in 2008 and performed better than Lebron ever did against them with Gasol and Odom averaging 13 and 12 points. I have no doubt that prime Kobe would have won all four years with that Heat team. I also don't know how you can justify Lebron being top ten when literally none of the other top ten players have losing records in the NBA finals.

jmaest
06-16-2014, 11:00 PM
Lebron isn't catching Kobe. Period. If he plays his cards right he MAY catch Bird. Maybe.....

Um, I think Bird > Kobe. Better defender, better passer, more efficient scorer dominated the game from multiple angles and probably the most clutch player of all time.

I wouldn't put Lebron in Bird's category but Kobe isn't there either.

Raps08-09 Champ
06-16-2014, 11:00 PM
My disagreement comes from this. Say what you will about Kobe, but he and Pau clicked and did so a total different way from Kobe/Bynum, Kobe/odom, Kobe/Shaq because Kobe adapted into a pnr to maximize Pau with no camp from day one.

To me I've yet to see Bron truly pull back some of his comfort to make another guy effective. He can make you look great at doing what he wants you to do, catch and shoot, but I think if they had figured out how to use some of Boshs Toronto game they would be even better.

To me that's Brons biggest flaw, he's an all time great specimen and freak player but he never gives up his approach and what he likes to do to make guys comfortable. I think of Hughes who shared a ball with Jamison and arenas but never got comfortable around Bron fully or Z who changed up his style completely like bosh has.

I'm not saying bosh is an all time dominant big, but neither was Pau, in fact Bosh was more accomplished than Pau when Kobe got him, yet we have never seen Bosh truly utilized right because Bron won't adapt and it has to be Bron since he always has the ball

Pau is a top 10 PF and was more accomplished than Bosh was (led the Grizzlies to 50 wins I believe was definitely more talented). But that's an argument for another day. I think Bosh and Lebron would be better off if Wade wasn't in the equation. I do agree that Lebron hasn't really given leeway to make Bosh or Wade comfortable in their game (Wade and Bosh had to adapt to Lebron), but I don't think Lebron adapting to Wade or Bosh's game will make the team better, so can't really put a lot of blame on it. Lebron hasn't also had a good GM or coach in his career at all to construct and maximize a team. That Heat team was poorly constructed from the start which relied on talent alone to get it so far. Lebron needs (#1) shooters for his team to be the most effective and his best shooter has been Mo Williams. But Mo Williams isn't a true 2nd option. I do believe though Irving and Lebron is perfect. Irving is actually a shooter who can also be his own player (unlike Williams).

Raps08-09 Champ
06-16-2014, 11:03 PM
only 5 in the 3rd though?

I'm pretty sure most of his points came in the 3rd quarter for the series. Not sure though.

But if it didn't, how much of that is Popovich adapting and how much of that is Lebron just lazying off? I'd probably lean towards Pop who had every answer to Miami.

jmaest
06-16-2014, 11:14 PM
Pau is a top 10 PF and was more accomplished than Bosh was (led the Grizzlies to 50 wins I believe was definitely more talented). But that's an argument for another day. I think Bosh and Lebron would be better off if Wade wasn't in the equation. I do agree that Lebron hasn't really given leeway to make Bosh or Wade comfortable in their game (Wade and Bosh had to adapt to Lebron), but I don't think Lebron adapting to Wade or Bosh's game will make the team better, so can't really put a lot of blame on it. Lebron hasn't also had a good GM or coach in his career at all to construct and maximize a team. That Heat team was poorly constructed from the start which relied on talent alone to get it so far. Lebron needs (#1) shooters for his team to be the most effective and his best shooter has been Mo Williams. But Mo Williams isn't a true 2nd option. I do believe though Irving and Lebron is perfect. Irving is actually a shooter who can also be his own player (unlike Williams).

Just when I was about to agree with you, you went and ruined it by saying Irving & Lebron are a good fit. Both players are point guards essentially. There's no way Irving & Lebron fit--not unless you're going to let them play with 2 basketballs.

Lebron cannot play with players who "need" the ball. That means take out any team with a good point unless Lebron is replacing that point. Forget the Clips, the Nets, the Cavs, etc.

Lebron is a point guard. That's what he's always really been. That's what his game really is. Put him in a system like the one the Clippers run and Lebron will be very successful.

I really, again, blame coaching. That team does not really have a viable system to work with. Leave Miami intact and replace Spoelstra with Thibodeau. Do they win it all next year? I think so. Replace Spoelstra with Doc. Do they win it all next year? I really think so.

Raps08-09 Champ
06-16-2014, 11:19 PM
Just when I was about to agree with you, you went and ruined it by saying Irving & Lebron are a good fit. Both players are point guards essentially. There's no way Irving & Lebron fit--not unless you're going to let them play with 2 basketballs.

Lebron cannot play with players who "need" the ball. That means take out any team with a good point unless Lebron is replacing that point. Forget the Clips, the Nets, the Cavs, etc.

Lebron is a point guard. That's what he's always really been. That's what his game really is. Put him in a system like the one the Clippers run and Lebron will be very successful.

I really, again, blame coaching. That team does not really have a viable system to work with. Leave Miami intact and replace Spoelstra with Thibodeau. Do they win it all next year? I think so. Replace Spoelstra with Doc. Do they win it all next year? I really think so.

We've already seen Lebron play comfortably off the ball with Wade handling the ball. It's as good of a fit as you'll get since Lebron's biggest need is a shooter. Of course Irving is sacrificing his handling a bit but he has enough strengths and Lebron has already shown to adapt off the ball.

I do agree about coaching. I have never liked Spo.

Mr_Jones
06-16-2014, 11:23 PM
lol, weird hearing Charles say something good about Kobe. He lauds Lebron so much but seems like he flip flops all the time. Not sure he even knows how he feels.

bucketss
06-16-2014, 11:24 PM
Um, I think Bird > Kobe. Better defender, better passer, more efficient scorer dominated the game from multiple angles and probably the most clutch player of all time.

I wouldn't put Lebron in Bird's category but Kobe isn't there either.

jokes on him right lol bird is already ahead of kobe

bucketss
06-16-2014, 11:27 PM
lol, weird hearing Charles say something good about Kobe. He lauds Lebron so much but seems like he flip flops all the time. Not sure he even knows how he feels.

chuck seemed to always be a heat hater but he loved lebron idk why. but i never take what these guys serious, especially chuck. i think stephen A.smith is the only one whos a bigger tool

bluefire7002
06-16-2014, 11:29 PM
My disagreement comes from this. Say what you will about Kobe, but he and Pau clicked and did so a total different way from Kobe/Bynum, Kobe/odom, Kobe/Shaq because Kobe adapted into a pnr to maximize Pau with no camp from day one.

To me I've yet to see Bron truly pull back some of his comfort to make another guy effective. He can make you look great at doing what he wants you to do, catch and shoot, but I think if they had figured out how to use some of Boshs Toronto game they would be even better.

To me that's Brons biggest flaw, he's an all time great specimen and freak player but he never gives up his approach and what he likes to do to make guys comfortable. I think of Hughes who shared a ball with Jamison and arenas but never got comfortable around Bron fully or Z who changed up his style completely like bosh has.

I'm not saying bosh is an all time dominant big, but neither was Pau, in fact Bosh was more accomplished than Pau when Kobe got him, yet we have never seen Bosh truly utilized right because Bron won't adapt and it has to be Bron since he always has the ball

Actually agree with you here...

I always read people say oh Shaq carried Kobe, and Kobe had all these super teams that he was given. Okay How come Shaq never won anything when he was in Orlando? Not taking anything away from shaq because he's one of the greatest ever, but Kobe found a way to maximize both their games together, even though they didn't really get along.

Same with Gasol... He was always a pretty good player/all-star in Memphis but never really got anywhere there. Yet he comes mid-season, no training camp with Kobe and he became a beast in the playoffs for the next few years. It's not because Kobe was "given a superteam", he found a way to emphasize on his big guys. Same goes for Odom and Bynum. What have they done since they stopped playing with Kobe?

The Heat have been pretty damn good throughout the season (their record shows) and that could be because their in the eastern conference, but I am sure if they really maximized Bosh's game they would be unstoppable (If Wade remained healthy). These flaws really show when they play elite teams in the finals.

jmaest
06-16-2014, 11:31 PM
lol, weird hearing Charles say something good about Kobe. He lauds Lebron so much but seems like he flip flops all the time. Not sure he even knows how he feels.

I think there's a certain amount of marketing every NBA analyst has to do. If they just came out and said "Lebron would never be as good as Kobe and here's why..." A large of chunk of people would stop watching basketball. If they came out and said "Jordan will never be caught as the GOAT" a lot of people would stop watching.

Creating controversy and conversation helps keep people tuned in. There's 9 pages of us discussing Barkley's latest tirade. No question that it works.

IMO the beauty of basketball is watching it played the way the Spurs play. Watching a team with the defense of Chicago. Watching the emergence of a team like Atlanta. Superstars come & go but seeing more & more ball movement and exciting passes or plays being set up is just thrilling. That's how you build up Team rivalries and that is what draws ratings. The NBA under David Stern really missed the boat over the last 10 years. Hopefully this trend continues.

Mr_Jones
06-16-2014, 11:35 PM
I think there's a certain amount of marketing every NBA analyst has to do. If they just came out and said "Lebron would never be as good as Kobe and here's why..." A large of chunk of people would stop watching basketball. If they came out and said "Jordan will never be caught as the GOAT" a lot of people would stop watching.

Creating controversy and conversation helps keep people tuned in. There's 9 pages of us discussing Barkley's latest tirade. No question that it works.

IMO the beauty of basketball is watching it played the way the Spurs play. Watching a team with the defense of Chicago. Watching the emergence of a team like Atlanta. Superstars come & go but seeing more & more ball movement and exciting passes or plays being set up is just thrilling. That's how you build up Team rivalries and that is what draws ratings. The NBA under David Stern really missed the boat over the last 10 years. Hopefully this trend continues.

ABSOLUTELY. Kobe is my favorite player but I would gladly sacrifice Kobe, Mike, Dr. J and such for an entire league made up of teams like San Antonio. While those guys are so great, kids look up to them and think they play a certain way. They learn incorrectly. They need to learn from the Spurs.

jmaest
06-16-2014, 11:51 PM
ABSOLUTELY. Kobe is my favorite player but I would gladly sacrifice Kobe, Mike, Dr. J and such for an entire league made up of teams like San Antonio. While those guys are so great, kids look up to them and think they play a certain way. They learn incorrectly. They need to learn from the Spurs.

This is why MJ was so great, though. He absolutely played basketball that way. It was just, over time, he just started taking over games. But Jordan moved the ball around a ton. I posted earlier that in his first Finals against LA he averaged 11 assists and shot over 52% from the field.

The Sportscenter generation never saw that side of his game though. In Kobe's first few years he was learning the game the same way--within the boundaries of a system. He needed to in order to play with Shaq. It wasn't until later that he became the "1 on 1" player he's famous for.

There's a reason the 80's were known as the Golden Era of basketball. The ball movement and team play was just remarkable.

LA_Raiders
06-17-2014, 12:02 AM
1st smart thing chuck said all year.

ATL_Representa
06-17-2014, 12:11 AM
I Understand people live in the moment but I think it's Funny how quick people forget how good Kobe 81 pt game Bryant was in his prime..People get caught up in the flashy highlights from the physical specimen of LeBron James..There's a reason why he has 5 rings and bron has only two..Passing the ball is the only thing LeBron does better than Kobe...Everything else Kobe does better.Like Jordan Kobe also has the killer instinct when bron does not which is also part of the problem..I could go on for days but I don't feel like typing an essay..lol

Looking at it from a pure ball perspective, take away lebrons freak of Nature athleticism and who's better?

And before the "He had shaq" argument comes up..Lets remember he won two without him and was in position to win three if he had someone besides gasol and Odom...lol put Kobe in his prime with a team talented as the heat and he would have more than 6 rings.

bucketss
06-17-2014, 12:28 AM
I Understand people live in the moment but I think it's Funny how quick people forget how good Kobe 81 pt game Bryant was in his prime..People get caught up in the flashy highlights from the physical specimen of LeBron James..There's a reason why he has 5 rings and bron has only two..Passing the ball is the only thing LeBron does better than Kobe...Everything else Kobe does better.Like Jordan Kobe also has the killer instinct when bron does not which is also part of the problem..I could go on for days but I don't feel like typing an essay..lol

Looking at it from a pure ball perspective, take away lebrons freak of Nature athleticism and who's better?

And before the "He had shaq" argument comes up..Lets remember he won two without him and was in position to win three if he had someone besides gasol and Odom...lol put Kobe in his prime with a team talented as the heat and he would have more than 6 rings.

killer instinct doesn't exist, kobe is a better scorer and shooter which makes more confident and better in the clutch simple. even tho number might not suggest that,

hidalgo
06-17-2014, 12:44 AM
LeBron has already passed Kobe. Most people know it

better regular season stats
better playoff stats
LeBron had an epic game 7 in the finals with the game clinching shot, a Jordan moment. Kobe... 6-24 FG, bailed out by refs 37 FTA for LA vs 17 FTA for Boston, plus Perkins missed game 7 so Boston had trouble rebounding. lucky. no really epic Jordan moments in all his finals they won
4 mvps to 1
2 finals mvps to 2 ( LeBron will get a least 1 more)
5 trips to the finals as the man, vs 3 for Kobe (tie breaker for their finals mvps tie)

LeBron, Tim Duncan & Shaq are all above Kobe

amos1er
06-17-2014, 02:15 AM
LeBron has already passed Kobe. Most people know it

better regular season stats
better playoff stats
LeBron had an epic game 7 in the finals with the game clinching shot, a Jordan moment. Kobe... 6-24 FG, bailed out by refs 37 FTA for LA vs 17 FTA for Boston, plus Perkins missed game 7 so Boston had trouble rebounding. lucky. no really epic Jordan moments in all his finals they won
4 mvps to 1
2 finals mvps to 2 ( LeBron will get a least 1 more)
5 trips to the finals as the man, vs 3 for Kobe (tie breaker for their finals mvps tie)

LeBron, Tim Duncan & Shaq are all above Kobe

How can Lebron be top ten when all the other players in the top ten have winning records in the finals...

Also factor in that their teams weren't as stacked and faced much tougher competition en route to their championships.

Lebron is still 11-15... Perhaps even ranked down a bit arguably after this loss. He is still young though and has time to prove himself further.

Hotone1401
06-17-2014, 02:21 AM
LeBron has already passed Kobe. Most people know it

better regular season stats
better playoff stats
LeBron had an epic game 7 in the finals with the game clinching shot, a Jordan moment. Kobe... 6-24 FG, bailed out by refs 37 FTA for LA vs 17 FTA for Boston, plus Perkins missed game 7 so Boston had trouble rebounding. lucky. no really epic Jordan moments in all his finals they won
4 mvps to 1
2 finals mvps to 2 ( LeBron will get a least 1 more)
5 trips to the finals as the man, vs 3 for Kobe (tie breaker for their finals mvps tie)

LeBron, Tim Duncan & Shaq are all above Kobe

Actually, most people don't agree with you. It's only Kobe/Laker haters like you that believe that to be true.

ATL_Representa
06-17-2014, 02:22 AM
LeBron has already passed Kobe. Most people know it

better regular season stats
better playoff stats
LeBron had an epic game 7 in the finals with the game clinching shot, a Jordan moment. Kobe... 6-24 FG, bailed out by refs 37 FTA for LA vs 17 FTA for Boston, plus Perkins missed game 7 so Boston had trouble rebounding. lucky. no really epic Jordan moments in all his finals they won
4 mvps to 1
2 finals mvps to 2 ( LeBron will get a least 1 more)
5 trips to the finals as the man, vs 3 for Kobe (tie breaker for their finals mvps tie)

LeBron, Tim Duncan & Shaq are all above Kobe

Your a fkin idiot...Lol go back and look at the stats...If it wasn't for Kobe they wouldn't have beat Sacramento or Indiana..I could list more but I'll stop there with examples...Regular season? They're tit for tat.. In 07 he dropped 35ppg(Bron has never did that)... they robbed him of the mvp award that year...5 Trips to the finals as the man?? LMAO 4 of them was on the most stacked team in Nba history while also playing in a terrible conference and he still could only win two...And if it wasn't for Ray Allen he'd have another choke game on his hands....Hence the Dallas series in which he was terrible...And after all that it still remains, 5-2...Kobe!!

Hotone1401
06-17-2014, 02:27 AM
Your a fkin idiot...Lol go back and look at the stats...If it wasn't for Kobe they wouldn't have beat Sacramento or Indiana..I could list more but I'll stop there with examples...Regular season? They're tit for tat.. In 07 he dropped 35ppg(Bron has never did that)... they robbed him of the mvp award that year...5 Trips to the finals as the man?? LMAO 4 of them was on the most stacked team in Nba history while also playing in a terrible conference and he still could only win two...And if it wasn't for Ray Allen he'd have another choke game on his hands....Hence the Dallas series in which he was terrible...And after all that it still remains, 5-2...Kobe!!

This.

mngopher35
06-17-2014, 02:53 AM
I don't think Lebron has passed Kobe yet either but he isn't that far off (I basically have Kobe 8 Lebron 9
on my list). So ya I agree with Chuck here that Kobe is next not MJ.

amos1er
06-17-2014, 02:57 AM
I don't think Lebron has passed Kobe yet either but he isn't that far off (I basically have Kobe 8 Lebron 9
on my list). So ya I agree with Chuck here that Kobe is next not MJ.

Although I don't agree entirely I can respect this and further goes to debunk the claims of the anti Kobe/Laker crowd on here that "only Laker fans don't think that Lebron has passed Kobe".

Hotone1401
06-17-2014, 03:06 AM
I don't think Lebron has passed Kobe yet either but he isn't that far off (I basically have Kobe 8 Lebron 9
on my list). So ya I agree with Chuck here that Kobe is next not MJ.

An objective opinion^ here to shut you Kobe haters up.

Like Barkley, many of you guys are so caught up in the moment. Don't judge Lebron until his career is done with it. It's disrespectful and neglectful of Kobe's entire body of work.

85BearsDefense
06-17-2014, 03:29 AM
How has Lebron passed Kobe? Come on... Outside of the Thunder series Lebron has gagged in the clutch.

jerellh528
06-17-2014, 03:51 AM
Lebron will never be better than Kobe. He's nothing but a glorified stat sheet stuffer. If it wasn't for Kobe being too old and durant being too young, he would never have been the NBA's best player. He's never had to compete with prime behemoths such as Duncan, shaq, tmac, kg, dirk etc. he was the NBA's best for those 3 short years basically by default.

bluefire7002
06-17-2014, 04:05 AM
LeBron has already passed Kobe. Most people know it

better regular season stats
better playoff stats
LeBron had an epic game 7 in the finals with the game clinching shot, a Jordan moment. Kobe... 6-24 FG, bailed out by refs 37 FTA for LA vs 17 FTA for Boston, plus Perkins missed game 7 so Boston had trouble rebounding. lucky. no really epic Jordan moments in all his finals they won
4 mvps to 1
2 finals mvps to 2 ( LeBron will get a least 1 more)
5 trips to the finals as the man, vs 3 for Kobe (tie breaker for their finals mvps tie)

LeBron, Tim Duncan & Shaq are all above Kobe

I hate just making it about stats but don't go there in terms of playoffs. Just a few that came up doing a quick search:
-2001 Western Conference Semifinals versus Kings: 4 gms, 43.3 mpg, 35.0 ppg, 9.0 rpg, 4.3 apg, 1.25 spg, .473 fg%. Lakers win 4-0.
-2001 Western Conference Finals versus Spurs: 4 gms, 42.0 mpg, 33.3 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 7.0 apg, 1.5 spg, .514 fg%. Lakers win 4-0.
-2010 Western Conference Finals versus Suns: 6 gms, 41.7 mpg, 33.7 ppg, 7.2 rpg, 8.3 apg, .521 fg%. Lakers win 4-2.
-2009 Western Conference Finals versus Nuggets: 6 gms, 34.0 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 6.2 apg, 1.5 spg, .481 fg%. Lakers win 4-2.
-2008 Western Conference Semifinals versus Jazz: 6 gms, 41.3 mpg, 33.2 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 7.2 apg, .491 fg%. Lakers win 4-2.
-2008 Western Conference Finals versus Spurs: 5 gms, 40.4 mpg, 29.2 ppg, 5.6 rpg, 3.8 apg, 1.6 spg, .533 fg%. Lakers win 4-1

Kobe has been more dominant in the playoffs

amos1er
06-17-2014, 04:41 AM
Lebron will never be better than Kobe. He's nothing but a glorified stat sheet stuffer. If it wasn't for Kobe being too old and durant being too young, he would never have been the NBA's best player. He's never had to compete with prime behemoths such as Duncan, shaq, tmac, kg, dirk etc. he was the NBA's best for those 3 short years basically by default.

You just totally nailed it. Nice!!!

If greatness was only determined by stats and stats alone without looking at things in context and their entirety, Lebron would be top five of all-time. However, when looking at all the other things that go into making up greatness, Lebron falls short by a landslide. When it comes to mental toughness, he is not even top 50 of all-time. When it comes to leadership, he is not even top 50 of all time. When it comes to making his teammates better, he is not even top 50. When it comes to being clutch and will to win, he is not even top 50. When it comes to stepping up in big games and the finals and doing whatever it takes to win, he is not even top 50. However, it would be hard to argue against Lebron being top 15 at this point... This is mainly due to his empty inflated stats, MVP awards, and two rings and finals MVP's that he won by taking the easy way out and taking less money to team up with two of the greatest players of his generation. No other top level all-time great had to do anything close to that to win. He has not won against great competition or rivals, instead he teamed up with them.

amos1er
06-17-2014, 04:46 AM
I hate just making it about stats but don't go there in terms of playoffs. Just a few that came up doing a quick search:
-2001 Western Conference Semifinals versus Kings: 4 gms, 43.3 mpg, 35.0 ppg, 9.0 rpg, 4.3 apg, 1.25 spg, .473 fg%. Lakers win 4-0.
-2001 Western Conference Finals versus Spurs: 4 gms, 42.0 mpg, 33.3 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 7.0 apg, 1.5 spg, .514 fg%. Lakers win 4-0.
-2010 Western Conference Finals versus Suns: 6 gms, 41.7 mpg, 33.7 ppg, 7.2 rpg, 8.3 apg, .521 fg%. Lakers win 4-2.
-2009 Western Conference Finals versus Nuggets: 6 gms, 34.0 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 6.2 apg, 1.5 spg, .481 fg%. Lakers win 4-2.
-2008 Western Conference Semifinals versus Jazz: 6 gms, 41.3 mpg, 33.2 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 7.2 apg, .491 fg%. Lakers win 4-2.
-2008 Western Conference Finals versus Spurs: 5 gms, 40.4 mpg, 29.2 ppg, 5.6 rpg, 3.8 apg, 1.6 spg, .533 fg%. Lakers win 4-1

Kobe has been more dominant in the playoffs

I spite any Lebronite to find a playoff series where Lebron put up stats this good against an equal or greater level of competition to the teams you listed above and still came out victorious.

Of course no one will take this challenge and instead will come at me with more lame arguments that are as empty as Lebron's advanced stats.

bluefire7002
06-17-2014, 05:09 AM
I spite any Lebronite to find a playoff series where Lebron put up stats this good against an equal or greater level of competition to the teams you listed above and still came out victorious.

Of course no one will take this challenge and instead will come at me with more lame arguments that are as empty as Lebron's advanced stats.

Yea thats pretty much it right there. He's always played in a weak eastern conference. I would say Lebron's most impressive performance was when he beat the Pistons in 07, averaging something like 25ppg and close to a triple double. It doesn't mean he has been better than Kobe in the playoffs though.

amos1er
06-17-2014, 05:27 AM
Yea thats pretty much it right there. He's always played in a weak eastern conference. I would say Lebron's most impressive performance was when he beat the Pistons in 07, averaging something like 25ppg and close to a triple double. It doesn't mean he has been better than Kobe in the playoffs though.

That was the first series that came to mind as well, but that Pistons team lost that year, mainly because they imploded on themselves. They were a shell of their former selves by 2007 and didn't even have a center. Their best rim defender in Antonio McDyess got ejected 4 minutes into a decisive game 5. Rasheed quit on the team and it was a lay up drill for him by the end of the game. Not to mention all the friendly whistles he got. He also missed two free throws at the end of regulation that could have won the game. He then air balled a shot at the end of the first overtime that could have won the game. He also shot 3/11 in the close out game six in Cleveland. That Detroit team was not as good as any of the teams you listed, nor were Lebron's stats even close to what Kobe produced against those tougher teams. Though I will agree, it was Lebron's most impressive playoff victory.

CityofTreez
06-17-2014, 05:33 AM
As a fan, Kobe has one thing that LeBron won't have, and it's probably sad but true, and that's being a western conference player. Even though Kobe got help in his career, he did repeatedly dominate the far challenging path to the Finals.
LeBron will never accomplish that aspect in his career because he's realized how smart it is to reside in the eastern conference. It's an utter joke these days, and has been for awhile now.

Nets, Pacers, Sixers finals wins were impressive, but they were pushovers. My point is, Kobe still made it there for years, and even continued doing so in 2008, 2009, and 2010. That's the most amazing Kobe aspect that LeBron will never amount to in that regard. Screw the rings, ppg, coaches, and accolades, his longevity to be a menace in the Western Conference is what will separate him from LeBron when it comes down too me.

With that said, LeBron is far from over in his career.
He'll continue to be one of the most dominating players in the game, and whatever team he plays for, most likely in the east, will still be the biggest threat in the playoffs. 4 straight final appearances speaks for itself, and yes, the Miami Heat can go back next year because who will stop them?

This years final loss was a devastating one for LeBron's career, but he never stood a chance. Spurs were just that good w/ HCA. I can see where Barkley is coming from, but he's also the one who defends LeBron religiously on national television year-after-year.

So in a sense, LeBron hasn't surpassed Kobe with this recent finals loss, but if he won, idk?
It's a fragile debate, but Kobe holding down the West for his career has been the most monumental aspect that LeBron just won't ever qualify for. That doesn't rule/void him of ever surpassing Kobe, but definitely holding him back from overtaking the Legend of Kobe Bryant for me especially.

sammyvine
06-17-2014, 05:42 AM
don't you guys get bored of the kobe lebron argument?

ink
06-17-2014, 01:22 PM
don't you guys get bored of the kobe lebron argument?

:cheers:

Funny thing is, it doesn't mean anything anyway. It has nothing to do with the game.

jmaest
06-17-2014, 03:29 PM
:cheers:

Funny thing is, it doesn't mean anything anyway. It has nothing to do with the game.

This. Plus, they both suck. :dance: ;)

amos1er
06-19-2014, 04:45 AM
As a fan, Kobe has one thing that LeBron won't have, and it's probably sad but true, and that's being a western conference player. Even though Kobe got help in his career, he did repeatedly dominate the far challenging path to the Finals.
LeBron will never accomplish that aspect in his career because he's realized how smart it is to reside in the eastern conference. It's an utter joke these days, and has been for awhile now.

Nets, Pacers, Sixers finals wins were impressive, but they were pushovers. My point is, Kobe still made it there for years, and even continued doing so in 2008, 2009, and 2010. That's the most amazing Kobe aspect that LeBron will never amount to in that regard. Screw the rings, ppg, coaches, and accolades, his longevity to be a menace in the Western Conference is what will separate him from LeBron when it comes down too me.

With that said, LeBron is far from over in his career.
He'll continue to be one of the most dominating players in the game, and whatever team he plays for, most likely in the east, will still be the biggest threat in the playoffs. 4 straight final appearances speaks for itself, and yes, the Miami Heat can go back next year because who will stop them?

This years final loss was a devastating one for LeBron's career, but he never stood a chance. Spurs were just that good w/ HCA. I can see where Barkley is coming from, but he's also the one who defends LeBron religiously on national television year-after-year.

So in a sense, LeBron hasn't surpassed Kobe with this recent finals loss, but if he won, idk?
It's a fragile debate, but Kobe holding down the West for his career has been the most monumental aspect that LeBron just won't ever qualify for. That doesn't rule/void him of ever surpassing Kobe, but definitely holding him back from overtaking the Legend of Kobe Bryant for me especially.

Great post.

JordansBulls
06-19-2014, 10:33 PM
Of course he is closer to Kobe than MJ right now.