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View Full Version : Replacing bosh with melo?



HYFR
06-13-2014, 08:49 PM
I've thought about this and haven't seen it as a topic in here. If bosh was replaced with melo for the duration of the big three era, do they still appear in 4 straight finals and win 2 chips? Assuming everything stays the same with the heat.

bucketss
06-13-2014, 08:53 PM
no.

FOXHOUND
06-13-2014, 08:54 PM
No, because Bosh is their only big man and has been far more important to their cause than he usually gets credit for. A trio of LeBron-Wade-Melo would have no space to operate and not nearly enough touches between the three of them. Replacing Wade with Melo would be more effective than Bosh.

goingfor28
06-13-2014, 08:57 PM
Replace wade w melo yes. But bosh, imo no

HYFR
06-13-2014, 08:59 PM
No, because Bosh is their only big man and has been far more important to their cause than he usually gets credit for. A trio of LeBron-Wade-Melo would have no space to operate and not nearly enough touches between the three of them. Replacing Wade with Melo would be more effective than Bosh.

I disagree with the space to operate. I think the space would be there. The slippage in defense would probably be the biggest issue.

bluefire7002
06-13-2014, 09:07 PM
Replace wade w melo yes. But bosh, imo no

Exactly. Wade is the one that seems done. Bosh can still be a great 2nd best player anywhere else.

HYFR
06-13-2014, 09:10 PM
Replace wade w melo yes. But bosh, imo no

Exactly. Wade is the one that seems done. Bosh can still be a great 2nd best player anywhere else.

Wade was still elite 2010-2012. Wasn't just talking about this year

bluefire7002
06-13-2014, 09:15 PM
Wade was still elite 2010-2012. Wasn't just talking about this year

That would be an interesting lineup... They would probably still make it to the finals due to the weakness of that Eastern conference. Dont think the have 2 championships though.

HYFR
06-13-2014, 09:22 PM
Wade was still elite 2010-2012. Wasn't just talking about this year

That would be an interesting lineup... They would probably still make it to the finals due to the weakness of that Eastern conference. Dont think the have 2 championships though.

Yes it would. IMO they come away with at least one chip. Probably beating ok the same as they did

Giannis94
06-13-2014, 09:32 PM
That would be an interesting lineup... They would probably still make it to the finals due to the weakness of that Eastern conference. Dont think the have 2 championships though.

The one team that will be standing in their way next season is the Milwaukee Bucks.

kblo247
06-13-2014, 09:43 PM
Doesn't change much, Melo would still be told leave out the post to accommodate Bron over using his bully ball skills

Tony_Starks
06-13-2014, 09:52 PM
Never. Melo being used in Miamis offense would be a waste of his talent. Unless you're going to take Lebron off the ball which would be a waste of his talent.

Melo is a superior one on one player to Bron, he's not going to stand around and wait for last second shot clock scraps.

goingfor28
06-13-2014, 10:57 PM
The one team that will be standing in their way next season is the Milwaukee Bucks.
Lol

Cal827
06-13-2014, 11:31 PM
The one team that will be standing in their way next season is the Milwaukee Bucks.

This.

Fear that ****ing deer.

MrfadeawayJB
06-14-2014, 01:17 AM
Replace wade w melo yes. But bosh, imo no

Beat me to it. Wade should retire in a few years IMO. His body has betrayed him and he seems unwilling to develop a perimeter game

PurpleLynch
06-14-2014, 08:16 AM
The one team that will be standing in their way next season is the Milwaukee Bucks.

Join the Baratheons's rebellion

FOXHOUND
06-14-2014, 09:42 AM
I disagree with the space to operate. I think the space would be there. The slippage in defense would probably be the biggest issue.

You have to remember that in this scenario the Heat's center would be Joel Anthony for at least a little, as he was. You also have to remember that back when the Heat used the traditional lineup they were having spacing issues with this group as it was, and LeBron and Wade could rarely ever have a good game together because they had to constantly trade effectiveness.

The pace and space offense that has made Miami explode is due to one thing, Chris Bosh at center.

TheNumber37
06-14-2014, 10:47 AM
Wade is a 32 year old shooting guard without an outside shot. He needs to be improve his jump shooting if he wants to be a factor going forward. He damn sure has been absent in these finals.

Jamiecballer
06-14-2014, 11:22 AM
Nope nope nope. Too many egos not enough sacrifice. Bosh has shown incredible versatility. Melos game hasn't changed much since college.

Sly Guy
06-14-2014, 11:25 AM
bosh has sacrificed his offensive game for the betterment of the team. Do you think 'melo can get by with a smaller volume of shots?

FOXHOUND
06-14-2014, 11:51 AM
Nope nope nope. Too many egos not enough sacrifice. Bosh has shown incredible versatility. Melos game hasn't changed much since college.

How wonderfully uniformed.

FOXHOUND
06-14-2014, 11:58 AM
bosh has sacrificed his offensive game for the betterment of the team. Do you think 'melo can get by with a smaller volume of shots?

That's the thing, if it were LeBron, Wade and Melo one of them would have to go the Bosh route, and that just doesn't seem realistic or sound good. Three guys with a scoring title under their belt, one ball. As good as Bosh was in Toronto he was obviously not on their level of offensive firepower, which is why he was the one to bite the bullet.

LeBron, Wade and Melo would be a terrible trio. Replacing Wade with Melo would make more sense, but ultimately I don't think that changes anything.

Wade was incredible vs Dallas and they still lost, that one is obviously on LeBron.

Wade was good vs OKC, MAYBE Melo could have been better idk but they won in 5 games anyways.

Wade was up and down last year but really came on in games 4-7. Melo probably would have been better, as he was far better all year, so I guess last year doesn't go to game 7 and Melo helps make up for the struggles LeBron had early.

Wade was fine in games 1-3 this series, as much as people want to bash the guy in an attempt to protect LeBron he was averaging 18 PPG on 54%, he was very efficient for his volume. Game 4 he obviously sucked. Melo would be much better than Wade this season but is that enough to change this series? They've been blown out in 3 out of 4 games and as it stands the Spurs are a half quarter of poor 4th quarter execution away from a sweep right now.

MAYBE they win game 1 when LeBron gets hurt and no one could step up. MAYBE game 2 isn't as close and they win more firmly. But games 3 and 4? No, Melo isn't stopping the onslaught that happened there, that was just a straight beat down.

Jamiecballer
06-14-2014, 12:00 PM
How wonderfully uniformed.
please don't tell me how he's improved this skill by this % and this skill by that %. a man's game is supposed to improve as they get experience. he plays exactly the same way: me first and with blinders on.

The same hero ball that worked against college kids.

FOXHOUND
06-14-2014, 12:08 PM
please don't tell me how he's improved this skill by this % and this skill by that %. a man's game is supposed to improve as they get experience. he plays exactly the same way: me first and with blinders on.

The same hero ball that worked against college kids.

You obviously don't watch Melo enough now or throughout his career to have an opinion on it, because he plays way different lol. And this stupid comment just shows you're biased on the topic.

For all of Melo's "hero" ball he has led the Knicks to the 3rd best Orating and the 11th best Orating the last two years despite being surround by crap. No PG (Felton) only one other player who consistently could get double figures (JR Smith), and not much else. This year the Knicks offense was top 5 in Orating after Bargs got hurt, that experiment obviously didn't work out too well.

BALLER R
06-14-2014, 12:49 PM
What's happening to Wade I figured would happen. I said it early on in his career. Also said the same about Lebron but lebron developed his game more.

Same thing will happen to westbrook that has happened to wade. It happened to Rose sooner than I expected. Guys are getting faster and more athletic but your body only lasts so long. You gotta get a finesse game. The crafty players are the ones that play till they are old.

Jamiecballer
06-14-2014, 03:37 PM
You obviously don't watch Melo enough now or throughout his career to have an opinion on it, because he plays way different lol. And this stupid comment just shows you're biased on the topic.

For all of Melo's "hero" ball he has led the Knicks to the 3rd best Orating and the 11th best Orating the last two years despite being surround by crap. No PG (Felton) only one other player who consistently could get double figures (JR Smith), and not much else. This year the Knicks offense was top 5 in Orating after Bargs got hurt, that experiment obviously didn't work out too well.
I'll just assume you are a knick fan. nothing you said invalidates my point and is pretty damn near laughable to any objective basketball fan.

bucketss
06-14-2014, 03:40 PM
Wade is a 32 year old shooting guard without an outside shot. He needs to be improve his jump shooting if he wants to be a factor going forward. He damn sure has been absent in these finals.

lol damn hes pretty old now i didn''t even notice.

FOXHOUND
06-14-2014, 04:00 PM
I'll just assume you are a knick fan. nothing you said invalidates my point and is pretty damn near laughable to any objective basketball fan.

Right, because you're the beacon of objectivity just based on what can be seen in that Kobe thread or this one lol. You said nothing of substance, nor did you give any reason or evidence, just pure hating.

But yeah, his game has evolved a lot. His arsenal of moves is bigger and he is better in every facet of the game by a considerable margin. Just the way his 3 point shot has changed the past two years has noticeably changed the way he plays.

Saying he plays exactly the same because of "me first with blinders on" is just about the worst basketball analysis ever. I guess you would say Steve Nash never changed because he was always an unselfish player looking to pass.

TylerSL
06-14-2014, 04:04 PM
No.

Jamiecballer
06-14-2014, 04:10 PM
Right, because you're the beacon of objectivity just based on what can be seen in that Kobe thread or this one lol. You said nothing of substance, nor did you give any reason or evidence, just pure hating.

But yeah, his game has evolved a lot. His arsenal of moves is bigger and he is better in every facet of the game by a considerable margin. Just the way his 3 point shot has changed the past two years has noticeably changed the way he plays.

Saying he plays exactly the same because of "me first with blinders on" is just about the worst basketball analysis ever. I guess you would say Steve Nash never changed because he was always an unselfish player looking to pass.
if you have an issue with anything I said about Kobe in the other thread call me out there.

regarding Melo what evidence do I need to present in support of my claim that he is a classic me first player who rarely sees his teammates? his ridiculous usage and eye-poppingly low assist totals that have been beaten to death already? the consistency with which he produces said totals regardless of who he has as teammates?

the evidence is so overwhelming that its an opinion shared by the VAST majority of basketball fans I would say.

Jamiecballer
06-14-2014, 04:12 PM
Thanks for proving my point by the way. Nothing you described suggests that he plays the game any differently. Only that he has gotten incrementally better as is completely normal and expected if a professional basketball player.

FOXHOUND
06-14-2014, 04:22 PM
Thanks for proving my point by the way. Nothing you described suggests that he plays the game any differently. Only that he has gotten incrementally better as is completely normal and expected if a professional basketball player.

I guess you think he never passes or something, whatever lol.

Yeah, just the simple fact that in three years in New York he has averaged 5.1 3PTA per game vs 8 years in Denver averaging 2.3 3PTA would suggest that he does play very different.

Oh by the way,

MPG
Melo - 38.9
Durant - 38.9

Touches Per Game
Melo - 69.2
Durant - 69.0

Passes Per Game
Melo - 40.7
Durant - 38.9

So unless you think that Durant is also a selfish player who can't see his teammates... never mind. Clearly the only person with blinders on is you when you watch Melo play. You have no idea what you are seeing.

If Melo was me first with blinders on, like you say, then the Knicks wouldn't have an elite orating the past two seasons (sans Bargs this season) with him and garbage. The reason they have an orating so high is because Melo works the block, draws doubles, kicks it out and the ball swings to the open player, usually for a three.

But yeah, keep on hating.

PurpleJesus
06-14-2014, 04:32 PM
Anthony, Wade and LBJ would be a terrible fit. You can't have 3 players play the role of superstar, you need pieces to fit together.
You can see it in FIFA Basketball now. The USA is still the dominate team in international play, only because their talent level is superior to everyone else, but the gap has been closing for more than a decade, due to the European team style of play.

PurpleJesus
06-14-2014, 04:35 PM
I guess you think he never passes or something, whatever lol.

Yeah, just the simple fact that in three years in New York he has averaged 5.1 3PTA per game vs 8 years in Denver averaging 2.3 3PTA would suggest that he does play very different.

Oh by the way,

MPG
Melo - 38.9
Durant - 38.9

Touches Per Game
Melo - 69.2
Durant - 69.0

Passes Per Game
Melo - 40.7
Durant - 38.9

So unless you think that Durant is also a selfish player who can't see his teammates... never mind. Clearly the only person with blinders on is you when you watch Melo play. You have no idea what you are seeing.

If Melo was me first with blinders on, like you say, then the Knicks wouldn't have an elite orating the past two seasons (sans Bargs this season) with him and garbage. The reason they have an orating so high is because Melo works the block, draws doubles, kicks it out and the ball swings to the open player, usually for a three.

But yeah, keep on hating.

When do those passes happen though? There is a difference in passing early in the shot clock, which is usually a good pass, and passing with a low shot clock. Anthony tends to dribble around, looking for his own shot, as the shot clock dwindles. It is when he doesnt find his shot, that he forces some pretty bad passes. It isnt as simple as "one player passes more than another," which is the case you are trying to make.

Jamiecballer
06-14-2014, 05:03 PM
When do those passes happen though? There is a difference in passing early in the shot clock, which is usually a good pass, and passing with a low shot clock. Anthony tends to dribble around, looking for his own shot, as the shot clock dwindles. It is when he doesnt find his shot, that he forces some pretty bad passes. It isnt as simple as "one player passes more than another," which is the case you are trying to make.
bingo.

Jamiecballer
06-14-2014, 05:26 PM
I guess you think he never passes or something, whatever lol.

Yeah, just the simple fact that in three years in New York he has averaged 5.1 3PTA per game vs 8 years in Denver averaging 2.3 3PTA would suggest that he does play very different.

Oh by the way,

MPG
Melo - 38.9
Durant - 38.9

Touches Per Game
Melo - 69.2
Durant - 69.0

Passes Per Game
Melo - 40.7
Durant - 38.9

So unless you think that Durant is also a selfish player who can't see his teammates... never mind. Clearly the only person with blinders on is you when you watch Melo play. You have no idea what you are seeing.

If Melo was me first with blinders on, like you say, then the Knicks wouldn't have an elite orating the past two seasons (sans Bargs this season) with him and garbage. The reason they have an orating so high is because Melo works the block, draws doubles, kicks it out and the ball swings to the open player, usually for a three.

But yeah, keep on hating.
what does a good team ORT have to do with whether Melo is a selfish or not? whether he has elite offensive talent is not in question here.

FOXHOUND
06-14-2014, 06:51 PM
When do those passes happen though? There is a difference in passing early in the shot clock, which is usually a good pass, and passing with a low shot clock. Anthony tends to dribble around, looking for his own shot, as the shot clock dwindles. It is when he doesnt find his shot, that he forces some pretty bad passes. It isnt as simple as "one player passes more than another," which is the case you are trying to make.

Sorry, but what are you basing that off of? You actually have it backwards, the Knicks usually spend the first 8-10 seconds of the shot clock just trying to set up a post up for Melo before dumping it into him. In the last 5-10 seconds of the shot clock the ball usually finds Melo so he can try to create something out of nothing.

He also very rarely forces bad passes, which is a large reason why he's so efficient from a turnover standpoint. He had 72 passing TO's in 77 games this season and 55 in 65 games the year before.

The point I was trying to make is simple, Melo is a willing passer contrary to what most people like to think about him. I didn't say he was a better or any more willing a passer than Durant, I just used Durant as an example of context. If i just put that Melo passes 40 times a game the response would probably be something like, oh yeah well he has the ball all game and other stars pass it more, or something like that lol.

Harden passes 45 times a game, George 45, LeBron 49, etc. The basis that Melo never passes, or is an unwilling passer is just so off base. Saying he's selfish cause he takes a lot of shots on a horrible team, or even in general, is also off base. It's just annoying to constantly see him get bashed on misconceptions, or things that were relevant in the first 4 or 5 seasons of his career but clearly are no longer the case.

Edit: Oops, forgot context for the passing thing. So Melo had 72 passing TO's in 77 games this year on 40 passes per game. Let's use LeBron James, for example. LeBron had 152 passing TO's in 77 games this year on 49 passes per game. Melo is incredibly efficient from a turnover standpoint, something that is often overlooked about his game. He's averaged just 2.6 TO per game each year in NY despite having USG rates in the 30's.

FOXHOUND
06-14-2014, 06:53 PM
what does a good team ORT have to do with whether Melo is a selfish or not? whether he has elite offensive talent is not in question here.

What are you basing Melo's selfishness on, exactly? If he was selfish the team would not be operating at an elite efficiency despite having so little around him. Maybe if you want to actually add context instead of just throwing out lines I would understand where you're coming from.

Jamiecballer
06-14-2014, 11:32 PM
What are you basing Melo's selfishness on, exactly? If he was selfish the team would not be operating at an elite efficiency despite having so little around him. Maybe if you want to actually add context instead of just throwing out lines I would understand where you're coming from.
I answered that pretty clearly in post #30

Munkeysuit
06-14-2014, 11:47 PM
Why replace? why can't the Heat have them both?

TheTicketGuy
06-14-2014, 11:50 PM
Bosh Is just not cutting it for the heat. His lack of scoring, combined with Wade's horrible defence are the reasons why Miami will not threepeat. I am loving the fact that all the Heat fans finally realize that their team isn't the greatest team of all time. In fact, they are not even close.

FOXHOUND
06-15-2014, 12:35 AM
I answered that pretty clearly in post #30

So a players selfishness is tied to how many assists they get, not how many times they actually pass the ball? So because Melo is not as talented as a passer as Durant is that makes him more selfish? Yeah, go ahead and explain that one for me. Please use objectivity, as you do.

Let's look at some facts and leave nonsensical perception on the sideline for a minute.

Melo had 69.2 touches per game.
LeBron had 75.6 touches per game.

Melo had 40.7 passes per game.
LeBron had 49.0 passes per game.

This means Melo passed the ball once every 0.588 touches.
This means LeBron passed the ball once every 0.648 touches.

If you can keep up with basic math this means LeBron passed the ball one more time than Melo every 10 touches.

What's the other big complaint about Melo on offense, that he holds the ball too much? He's a big time ball hog, right?

Melo's time of possession was 3.6 minutes, or simply 3:36 minutes per game.
LeBron's time of possession was 4.9 minutes, or simply 4:54 minutes per game.

This means on average Melo had the ball for 3.12 seconds per touch.
This means on average LeBron had the ball for 3.88 seconds per touch.

BUT remember, LeBron is the most unselfish superstar that has ever played the game of basketball and Melo is a selfish ball hog. :rolleyes:

Here's the truth of the matter, from an objective standpoint.

1) Melo doesn't touch the ball, handle the ball or shoot the ball any more than any top players around the league now or ever.

2) He's a good passer for a SF, very responsible and has the ability to hit tight windows that most SF's aren't capable of on a consistent level.

3) He is not a great passing wing though, he is not a great natural passer. If left to himself his form of playmaking comes more in the form of scoring than passing. If he draws a double he can hit the open man but he will not consistently create easy shots for teammates on his own.

4) He is capable of running plays, if he's in a structured offense that actually has plays. The Knicks did not do this often and neither did the Nuggets. When they did in Denver plays would mostly be run by Andre Miller, Allen Iverson or Chauncey Billups with Melo ideally finishing off those plays as he's a much better scorer than passer.

5) Melo is AWARE of this, he does not try to be something he is not. He does not get caught up in stat stuffing and trying to pad assists, he let's guards do the ball handling and play running as they are far better at it than he is. This is why Andre Miller, Allen Iverson and Chauncey Billups excelled with him. He adds to their game because he doesn't interfere with their game.

6) Further proof of this, even on the garbage Knicks Raymond Felton still led the team in time of possession with a commanding 5.4 minutes (5:24) per game to Melo's 3.6 (3:36).

I'm done with this derailing conversation though. You clearly have no objectivity on the subject of Carmelo Anthony and have no interest other than to bash him. Go ahead and respond, I'll read it if you do, but I will not respond to it because this conversation has derailed this thread long enough. We can agree to disagree on Carmelo.

FreeAgentZero
06-18-2014, 02:32 PM
Bosh is better and more important than Wade. I doubt Wade will opt out of his deal unless the Heat give him a longer deal with more money guaranteed. If they can replace Wade with Melo, they'll score 110 points a game next year. If they replace Bosh with Melo, I'm just not sure how that works out on the actual court.

jmaest
06-18-2014, 05:02 PM
I'm not even going through the thread because this topic makes me laugh.

Melo has proven over his career he has a tough time adjusting to other players who need the ball in their hands a lot.

Plus, how many basketballs are they going to allow them to play with next year? Because if it's just one then Melo & Lebron may have a hard time playing together...

Forget Bosh, Wade, whoever else. I can't see Melo & Lebron just playing well together.

FOBolous
06-18-2014, 05:08 PM
Nothing's going to change because the problem isn't Bosh, it's how they're using him. If they use Melo the,same way they use Bosh, they'll still be in the same position

Jamiecballer
06-18-2014, 05:38 PM
So a players selfishness is tied to how many assists they get, not how many times they actually pass the ball? So because Melo is not as talented as a passer as Durant is that makes him more selfish? Yeah, go ahead and explain that one for me. Please use objectivity, as you do.

Let's look at some facts and leave nonsensical perception on the sideline for a minute.

Melo had 69.2 touches per game.
LeBron had 75.6 touches per game.

Melo had 40.7 passes per game.
LeBron had 49.0 passes per game.

This means Melo passed the ball once every 0.588 touches.
This means LeBron passed the ball once every 0.648 touches.

If you can keep up with basic math this means LeBron passed the ball one more time than Melo every 10 touches.

What's the other big complaint about Melo on offense, that he holds the ball too much? He's a big time ball hog, right?

Melo's time of possession was 3.6 minutes, or simply 3:36 minutes per game.
LeBron's time of possession was 4.9 minutes, or simply 4:54 minutes per game.

This means on average Melo had the ball for 3.12 seconds per touch.
This means on average LeBron had the ball for 3.88 seconds per touch.

BUT remember, LeBron is the most unselfish superstar that has ever played the game of basketball and Melo is a selfish ball hog. :rolleyes:

Here's the truth of the matter, from an objective standpoint.

1) Melo doesn't touch the ball, handle the ball or shoot the ball any more than any top players around the league now or ever.

2) He's a good passer for a SF, very responsible and has the ability to hit tight windows that most SF's aren't capable of on a consistent level.

3) He is not a great passing wing though, he is not a great natural passer. If left to himself his form of playmaking comes more in the form of scoring than passing. If he draws a double he can hit the open man but he will not consistently create easy shots for teammates on his own.

4) He is capable of running plays, if he's in a structured offense that actually has plays. The Knicks did not do this often and neither did the Nuggets. When they did in Denver plays would mostly be run by Andre Miller, Allen Iverson or Chauncey Billups with Melo ideally finishing off those plays as he's a much better scorer than passer.

5) Melo is AWARE of this, he does not try to be something he is not. He does not get caught up in stat stuffing and trying to pad assists, he let's guards do the ball handling and play running as they are far better at it than he is. This is why Andre Miller, Allen Iverson and Chauncey Billups excelled with him. He adds to their game because he doesn't interfere with their game.

6) Further proof of this, even on the garbage Knicks Raymond Felton still led the team in time of possession with a commanding 5.4 minutes (5:24) per game to Melo's 3.6 (3:36).

I'm done with this derailing conversation though. You clearly have no objectivity on the subject of Carmelo Anthony and have no interest other than to bash him. Go ahead and respond, I'll read it if you do, but I will not respond to it because this conversation has derailed this thread long enough. We can agree to disagree on Carmelo.
as long as you continue to misuse and misinterpret the meaningfulness of those numbers there isn't much point.

number of touches, time of possession, why on earth wouldn't those be higher for the guy who does the majority of the playmaking for his team? does this not make sense? doesn't dribbling around the court, surveying the defense and opportunities for his teammates take 2 things - touches and time of possession?

it is very hard to handle the ball as much as Melo does and generate so few assists - so much so that few players in the history of the game have ever done it.

its quite clear you've watched a lot of Melo which is why your assessment makes you sound like a fan rather than an observer.

smith&wesson
06-18-2014, 05:54 PM
I think miami has a poormans versian of melo in beasly already.

koreancabbage
06-18-2014, 08:29 PM
Join the Baratheons's rebellion

he's the rightful heir!