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hail2skins4life
06-12-2014, 11:42 AM
Have we forgotten how good that guy was? Its my opinion that Kobe is 2nd to none other than MJ. Other people seem to leave him out of their top 5 and even their top 10 sometimes. How? Kobe is by far the most skilled player to EVER play. Offensively nobody matches his skill set. And he was a shutdown defender.

I mean how the hell can you seriously rank Larry Bird ahead of Kobe with a straight face? I have been watching a lot of old school playoff games from the 80's and 90's and I always get the impression that if Kobe was in that game, he would be taking over.

So for those of you that rank him so low, why? And don't give me **** about how Kobe needed Shaq and Gasol to win titles. Jordan needed Pippen and Rodman, Larry needed McHale, and Magic needed Kareem and Worthy and everyone else.

Also if your going to say that Kobe only has 2 finals mvps and it was all Shaq in the 3peat years. (Its funny how ppl discredit Kobe like that but conveniently forget about the Magic Kareem combo), don't forget how well Kobe played in the playoffs. Kobe and Shaq could have easily split regular playoff series mvps. Sure Shaq may have had the finals mvps, but everybody knew that the real championship was always the WCF back then. Lakers vs Spurs and Lakers vs Kings were the real finals in those days. Kobe was off the charts against the Spurs. I'm not denying Shaq was the main man of the 3peat, but lets not act like Kobe was just some sidekick.

Then factor in the repeat days with Gasol and Bynum. Don't forget they beat the Celtics big 3 in 2010. Those are the same guys that took Lebron's Heat to 7 games in 2012.

So please enlighten me as to why Kobe is not on Mt. Rushmore to most of you people.

Matter.
06-12-2014, 11:50 AM
Good luck.

TheQueensKid
06-12-2014, 11:54 AM
Were prisoners of the moment long story short

dalton749
06-12-2014, 11:54 AM
go away

sixers247
06-12-2014, 12:02 PM
He is not underranked. He only would be to Kobe lovers.

Acclaimed
06-12-2014, 12:09 PM
Have we forgotten how good that guy was? Its my opinion that Kobe is 2nd to none other than MJ. Other people seem to leave him out of their top 5 and even their top 10 sometimes. How? Kobe is by far the most skilled player to EVER play. Offensively nobody matches his skill set. And he was a shutdown defender.

I mean how the hell can you seriously rank Larry Bird ahead of Kobe with a straight face? I have been watching a lot of old school playoff games from the 80's and 90's and I always get the impression that if Kobe was in that game, he would be taking over.

So for those of you that rank him so low, why? And don't give me **** about how Kobe needed Shaq and Gasol to win titles. Jordan needed Pippen and Rodman, Larry needed McHale, and Magic needed Kareem and Worthy and everyone else.

Also if your going to say that Kobe only has 2 finals mvps and it was all Shaq in the 3peat years. (Its funny how ppl discredit Kobe like that but conveniently forget about the Magic Kareem combo), don't forget how well Kobe played in the playoffs. Kobe and Shaq could have easily split regular playoff series mvps. Sure Shaq may have had the finals mvps, but everybody knew that the real championship was always the WCF back then. Lakers vs Spurs and Lakers vs Kings were the real finals in those days. Kobe was off the charts against the Spurs. I'm not denying Shaq was the main man of the 3peat, but lets not act like Kobe was just some sidekick.

Then factor in the repeat days with Gasol and Bynum. Don't forget they beat the Celtics big 3 in 2010. Those are the same guys that took Lebron's Heat to 7 games in 2012.

So please enlighten me as to why Kobe is not on Mt. Rushmore to most of you people.

I think Kobe is anywhere between 4 and 10. Somewhere in there. It's all opinionated though. Besides MJ being #1 it's all pretty debatable.

However there is some things that you are just straight wrong about.

1. Kobe was never a shot down defender. Good defender, and agressive, but not shut down. Compared to all time great defender like Jordan/Pippen he's not no where near good enough to be considered a "shut down" calibur.

2. Saying "if a player from this era played 30 years ago would of dominated" is like the worst way to prove someones worth. Kobe would be great in any era, but that's like me saying if Shaq played in the 80's he'd score 50 a game. It isn't relevant.

3. I don't have Kobe as higher than 7 on my list of top 10 just because simply he was really only great at one thing. Offense. I mean he's fantastic at it, but he's just not a complete player IMO. Also I honestly don't think he wins as many chips if Phil Jackson doesn't come back, or Shaq isn't on his team... Not a jab, but he was a difficult guy to get a long with, and Phil Jack seemed to be the only one to tame that monster ego especially early in his career.

4. Does it matter? I mean besides Jordan everyone's top 10 is completely different. I still don't know to this day how Magic Johnson is so damn overrated, but hey! Everyone and their mom seems to have him to 5 and IMO he's not even close, and then you'll see people not have Wilt in their top 10.

Acclaimed
06-12-2014, 12:12 PM
If your trying to rank all time players it's kind of tough if you can't talk about other players :shrug: . I don't think this page will be productive for too long.

I understand that, but he's not talking about other players he's baiting/trolling. All he's done since I joined this site.

hail2skins4life
06-12-2014, 12:25 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iou1L27tyZI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBu28UwDzps

Kobe was most certainly a shutdown defender....at least when he needed to be.

And how is he not complete? He could do everything. Yea scoring may be his thing, but if he wants he can give you 15 assists a night. Game 7 of the 2010 finals is a great example of Kobe being a complete player. He was struggling majorly with his shot that night, but being the great player that he is, he found other ways to contribute and grabbed 15 boards.

No doubt he doesn't have as many rings without Shaq, but everyone needs some help to win a ring. But he also did go on a drought period without any help (05-07). If he had some help there I could see him getting a ring.

GiantsSwaGG
06-12-2014, 12:29 PM
Kobe is not even a top 25 player of all time.

beyourself
06-12-2014, 12:32 PM
Most people have Kobe around 10th all time. That's not underrated dude. That's pretty high.

ManRam
06-12-2014, 12:50 PM
Q: Why is Kobe always under ranked among the all-time greats?

A: To you, he's always under-ranked because you think he's the second best player ever. Soo...that's on you. Since you think that, unless people agree with you, you're going to see them as "underrating" him, whether or not they actually are.

There are good cases to rank Kobe anywhere from probably 4 to 12 or something. IDK. But it's hard to rank guys across different eras. People go about it different ways...and there might not actually always be an absolutely "correct" answer.

Acclaimed
06-12-2014, 12:52 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iou1L27tyZI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBu28UwDzps

Kobe was most certainly a shutdown defender....at least when he needed to be.

And how is he not complete? He could do everything. Yea scoring may be his thing, but if he wants he can give you 15 assists a night. Game 7 of the 2010 finals is a great example of Kobe being a complete player. He was struggling majorly with his shot that night, but being the great player that he is, he found other ways to contribute and grabbed 15 boards.

No doubt he doesn't have as many rings without Shaq, but everyone needs some help to win a ring. But he also did go on a drought period without any help (05-07). If he had some help there I could see him getting a ring.

You tube video's do nothing for me man. I mean the key word here is shutdown...

In my opinion a shutdown defender is someone that constantly brings it. Kobe is disadvantaged at his size, and defense has a lot to do with natural ability, and Kobe isn't the most athletically gifted player, but comparable to some of the great defenders of the last 30 years he's just not their IMO.

Just because he has a game when he gets 15 assists doesn't mean he's a great playmaker. I'm pretty sure he has the worst points to assist ration in the history of the game. Kobe's strength is as a attacker. A straight ninja offensively when he wants to be.

3Blueforyou
06-12-2014, 12:58 PM
Q: Why is Kobe always under ranked among the all-time greats?

A: To you, he's always under-ranked because you think he's the second best player ever. Soo...that's on you. Since you think that, unless people agree with you, you're going to see them as "underrating" him, whether or not they actually are.

There are good cases to rank Kobe anywhere from probably 4 to 12 or something. IDK. But it's hard to rank guys across different eras. People go about it different ways...and there might not actually always be an absolutely "correct" answer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JttE4UT74k

Hubie brown discussing the topic of different eras.

hail2skins4life
06-12-2014, 12:58 PM
Kobe is not even a top 25 player of all time.

:facepalm: ignorant

beasted86
06-12-2014, 01:14 PM
If you have Kobe top 5 all time, then it's likely a homer Kobephile. 6-12 is fair game, and 13+ is likely a hater.

PurpleLynch
06-12-2014, 01:20 PM
Slow down, my man Kobe is still playing. Ranking is possible just when a player finishes his career.
And anyway he's considered most of the time already in the top 10,pretty high considering how many players played in the Nba/Aba(and he's not even retired). He's not underrated.

bucketss
06-12-2014, 01:39 PM
:facepalm: ignorant

yeah you're right, kobe is definitely a top 25 player i don't know why people disrespect him so much :)

MassoDio
06-12-2014, 01:55 PM
"Under-ranked" is a subjective term. And what I mean by that is....it is only relevant to the person who feels he is under-ranked.

Top 10 lists are opinions. Just because you feel he is "that Kobe is 2nd to none other than MJ" doesn't make you right.

I would have to think about my top 10, as I haven't really put together a list. Kobe would be in it, but he wouldn't be top 5.

I think the overall point is.....you saying he is number 2 all time is basically the same thing as someone else calling him number 30 all time. It is an opinion. You feeling he is under-ranked....is an opinion.

beliges
06-12-2014, 02:02 PM
I think most people have him somewhere between 4-8 of all time. Pretty much where he belongs really. If he manages to get another chip, thatll change everything.

beyourself
06-12-2014, 02:10 PM
I think most people have him somewhere between 4-8 of all time. Pretty much where he belongs really. If he manages to get another chip, thatll change everything.

4 is awfully high for a guy who is basically Diet MJ. Even since MJ you could make the case that career wise he's 6th after Jordan, Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem and LeBron. And peak wise Jordan, Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, LeBron, Wade, Dirk, Garnett, Durant, Malone, Barkley all have cases.

This is just in the last 20 years. So I just cannot see 4th.

tredigs
06-12-2014, 02:25 PM
For his position he is top 5 All-Time at exactly one thing: Scoring. And he is not 1st.

TheQueensKid
06-12-2014, 02:31 PM
I'm hoping Kobe can give us one last run to the finals. Hopefully against Le***** and the heat

beliges
06-12-2014, 02:31 PM
4 is awfully high for a guy who is basically Diet MJ. Even since MJ you could make the case that career wise he's 6th after Jordan, Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem and LeBron. And peak wise Jordan, Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, LeBron, Wade, Dirk, Garnett, Durant, Malone, Barkley all have cases.

This is just in the last 20 years. So I just cannot see 4th.

I do not believe 4 is high for a guy that dominated his era more so than anyone else. He has a ring for each finger on one of his hands. That more than you can say for anyone else you mentioned there on your list. Sorry, his accomplishments are just too great as compared to everyone else who has ever played.

beyourself
06-12-2014, 02:37 PM
I do not believe 4 is high for a guy that dominated his era more so than anyone else. He has a ring for each finger on one of his hands. That more than you can say for anyone else you mentioned there on your list. Sorry, his accomplishments are just too great as compared to everyone else who has ever played.

That is incorrect. Shaq is the most dominant player of the era. Duncan is the most decorated.

GiantsSwaGG
06-12-2014, 02:47 PM
yeah you're right, kobe is definitely a top 25 player i don't know why people disrespect him so much :)

That's like saying Melo is a top 15 player of all time...

Acclaimed
06-12-2014, 02:51 PM
I do not believe 4 is high for a guy that dominated his era more so than anyone else. He has a ring for each finger on one of his hands. That more than you can say for anyone else you mentioned there on your list. Sorry, his accomplishments are just too great as compared to everyone else who has ever played.

I think 4 is reasonable, but like I said this is basketball.. It's impossible to get a top 10 list without having arguing... I have him at around 8-12 just like the one guy said, but I can totally understand someone putting him top 5.

I just don't see it that way.

Plain and simple too it's just stupid to rank players all time like that. They should be ranked by their position, and Kobe is the second greatest SG of all time IMO. There are players with better years, but no one with the consistent dominance that Kobe has had. NO ONE.

And even though you don't agree with beyourself you have to at least admit it's close. Not admitting that is disrespectful to guys like Lebron/Shaq/Duncan or whoever you have behind him. Kobe was great, but he's not head and shoulders above the rest.

Acclaimed
06-12-2014, 02:54 PM
That's like saying Melo is a top 15 player of all time...

So MOD's. This is your problem with this forum. You're going to let this guy troll, but if I call him an idiot I'm the *******. So you punish a good poster, and let the troll move on. MOD's do you get why there's a problem in this forum now? Like this is forum management 101. Get your heads out of your ***** and figure it out.

tredigs
06-12-2014, 02:54 PM
I do not believe 4 is high for a guy that dominated his era more so than anyone else. He has a ring for each finger on one of his hands. That more than you can say for anyone else you mentioned there on your list. Sorry, his accomplishments are just too great as compared to everyone else who has ever played.

He dominated the marketing of the era, he did not dominate the players. Hell, there's a case he was never the best player in any given season, and Duncan has just as strong a case - if not stronger - as being the best player of this era (with Shaq being the most dominant from 98-2002, Duncan slightly overlapping from 2000-2007, and Lebron from 2007-2013. With, in any given year there being 1-2 better players than those guys, Kobe being one of the guys in the mix).

Kobe's an All-Time talent, but his style of score-score-score and the creativity which he can do it is much more pleasing to marketers and casual fans alike. But, it does not mean he brought the most to the table when compared to the All Time legends. I'll take Jordan, Magic, Wilt, Kareem, Olajuwon, Shaq and Lebron at their peak over Kobe all day every day. Simply at his peak I'd put him in the tier with Duncan, Bird, Barkley, Robinson, Dr. J, etc. The fact that being in that tier feels like a sleight to Kobe lovers speaks of itself to me.

His longevity was amazing (not Malone amazing, but great none the less), and he was always in that group of the best in the league, but Kobe was rarely a purely dominating force in a myriad of ways like these other guys were/are. He was just an amazing scorer (though not the best) with a very solid all around game.

goingfor28
06-12-2014, 03:03 PM
So MOD's. This is your problem with this forum. You're going to let this guy troll, but if I call him an idiot I'm the *******. So you punish a good poster, and let the troll move on. MOD's do you get why there's a problem in this forum now? Like this is forum management 101. Get your heads out of your ***** and figure it out.

You should apply for mod status

Acclaimed
06-12-2014, 03:17 PM
Trolls will kill a forum faster than any amount of name calling will.

Hotone1401
06-12-2014, 03:40 PM
So MOD's. This is your problem with this forum. You're going to let this guy troll, but if I call him an idiot I'm the *******. So you punish a good poster, and let the troll move on. MOD's do you get why there's a problem in this forum now? Like this is forum management 101. Get your heads out of your ***** and figure it out.

This.

Mods have sucked in this forum for the last 4 yrs.

IndyRealist
06-12-2014, 03:50 PM
If you have to delete half the comments in threads like these, why leave them open in the first place? It just invites trolls.

On topic, Kobe has always been overrated, imo, because he was the closest we got to MJ since he left. Everyone wanted to anoint him the 2nd coming when he really didnít produced on that level. And now that we have Lebron, who may legitimately contend for GOAT, Kobe is falling in top 10 lists.

Don't get me wrong, Kobe is almost definitely top 10. But he has never, ever been a real contender to the crown.

beyourself
06-12-2014, 04:01 PM
If you have to delete half the comments in threads like these, why leave them open in the first place? It just invites trolls.

On topic, Kobe has always been overrated, imo, because he was the closest we got to MJ since he left. Everyone wanted to anoint him the 2nd coming when he really didnít produced on that level. And now that we have Lebron, who may legitimately contend for GOAT, Kobe is falling in top 10 lists.

Don't get me wrong, Kobe is almost definitely top 10. But he has never, ever been a real contender to the crown.

I'm confused. You say Kobe was the closest thing to MJ. Maybe he was stylistically, the way he played the game, but I disagree.

LeBron plays nothing like MJ. Good for him, he has his own skillset.

Kobe may have a lot of Jordan's moves, but he doesn't play like Jordan. Jordan was much more of a team player and a smarter player. He didn't take as many ill-advised shots, he played with more regular defensive intensity. He was more aggressive and better off ball. Better decision making with his drives and passes. And Jordan blows him away athletically.

And the biggest difference was Jordan was more inclined to let the game come to him. When Kobe's shot wasn't falling he typically shot his team back into it or out of it. Jordan stayed within himself much better than Kobe. Jordan would focus his attention to other areas of the game.

All the people who say Kobe played exactly like Jordan have not actually watched broadcasted Jordan games. Just the highlights. Jordan was so much better than Kobe it's not even funny, the comparison of Jordan vs Kobe is a total massacre.

So I really just don't get it how Kobe was supposed to be the second coming of Jordan.

jerellh528
06-12-2014, 04:06 PM
I'm confused. You say Kobe was the closest thing to MJ. Maybe he was stylistically, the way he played the game, but I disagree.

LeBron plays nothing like MJ. Good for him, he has his own skillset.

Kobe may have a lot of Jordan's moves, but he doesn't play like Jordan. Jordan was much more of a team player and a smarter player. He didn't take as many ill-advised shots, he played with more regular defensive intensity. He was more aggressive and better off ball. Better decision making with his drives and passes. And Jordan blows him away athletically.

And the biggest difference was Jordan was more inclined to let the game come to him. When Kobe's shot wasn't falling he typically shot his team back into it or out of it. Jordan stayed within himself much better than Kobe. Jordan would focus his attention to other areas of the game.

All the people who say Kobe played exactly like Jordan have not actually watched broadcasted Jordan games. Just the highlights. Jordan was so much better than Kobe it's not even funny, the comparison of Jordan vs Kobe is a total massacre.

So I really just don't get it how Kobe was supposed to be the second coming of Jordan.

I think you are mistaken. Jordan was highly selfish and did everything you mentioned Kobe doing. Jordan was probably the most selfish player ever. The Jordan to Kobe comparison is valid because stylistically they are similar and have similar skill sets. Jordan was better because his measurables were superior and had a pair of octopus as hands. Pretty much Jordan was lebrons athleticism with Kobe's skillset and body

KnicksorBust
06-12-2014, 04:08 PM
MJ
KAJ
Magic
Kobe

I value longevity and rings significantly so to me his career cracked the top 5 after he won his 5th ring. I agree he is "under ranked" by many but he is also "over-ranked" by many as well who think he is neck and neck with MJ.

To answer your question, he gets under ranked for 3 very simple reasons:

#1.) It's very easy for kobe haters to devalue his first 3 titles (ESPECIALLY #1).

#2.) He's well known as a gunner who takes bad shots and in a statistical revolution his TS% of 55.5% is relatively underwhelming. Look at guys like KD (60%), LeBron (58% and rising), and MJ (57% but destroyed by Wizards stats, would be closer to 60%) scoring as much as him but more efficiently.

#3.) He won a lot of questionable awards from his MVP award to his all-defensive team appearances.

Acclaimed
06-12-2014, 04:10 PM
If you have to delete half the comments in threads like these, why leave them open in the first place? It just invites trolls.

On topic, Kobe has always been overrated, imo, because he was the closest we got to MJ since he left. Everyone wanted to anoint him the 2nd coming when he really didnít produced on that level. And now that we have Lebron, who may legitimately contend for GOAT, Kobe is falling in top 10 lists.

Don't get me wrong, Kobe is almost definitely top 10. But he has never, ever been a real contender to the crown.

You're forgetting your history then.. Kobe when he first started really doing well was definitely a contender. Honestly if Shaq/Phil never leave we might be talking about that right now... The few years of struggling Kobe that he brought on himself really hurt those chances from ever happening (not saying he's the only one at fault, but he has to take some responsibility in that, and Phil left too so he obviously didn't want to coach Kobe).

He's also one of the best comeback story's. The way he blew it in the finals, and then bit his tongue and asked Phil to come back, and rolled off 2 more rings without Shaq is awesome. It was the point in Kobe's career where it wasn't all about him finally. The point I started really liking Kobe again.

beyourself
06-12-2014, 04:11 PM
I think you are mistaken. Jordan was highly selfish and did everything you mentioned Kobe doing. Jordan was probably the most selfish player ever. The Jordan to Kobe comparison is valid because stylistically they are similar and have similar skill sets. Jordan was better because his measurables were superior and had a pair of octopus as hands.

Have you watched broadcasted Jordan games? Go watch the entire 1991 Finals run like I have. And you notice Jordan is not only better than Kobe the comparison is a massacre by Jordan.

Have you read Phil Jackson's book where he explains the differences between them mentally? He said Jordan let the game flow to him better and he did. Go watch Jordan play, his hands and athleticism allowed him to get his shot off much getter than Kobe.

Part of the reason why Jordan took so many shots was he could create a good look for himself so easily.

Kobe had to resort to more pump fakes, turnarounds, ill advised shots where Jordan could simply elevate and blow by better to get better shots.

Goose17
06-12-2014, 04:13 PM
Have we forgotten how good that guy was? Its my opinion that Kobe is 2nd to none other than MJ.

It's my opinion he's not even close to being 2nd. What makes your opinion right and mine wrong? Just ebcause YOU think he's underrated doesn't mean that he is. I think anyone having him in the top 15 is being fair, anyone having him in the top 5 is either a casual fan or die hard Kobe fan, anyone who has him outside of their top 15 is a hater.

But again... that's just my opinion, it doesn't make me right.


You can't claim something that is completely subjective to be fact.


Personally I would have MJ, Kareem, Lebron, Shaq, Bird, Bill, Big O, Olajuwon, Tim Duncan and Magic Johnson all over Kobe (not in that order though) maybe Robinson, Wilt and Malone as well... but it's just my opinion, it doesn't mean I'm wrong, doesn't mean I'm right either.

Teufelshunde4
06-12-2014, 04:14 PM
Have we forgotten how good that guy was? Its my opinion that Kobe is 2nd to none other than MJ. Other people seem to leave him out of their top 5 and even their top 10 sometimes. How? Kobe is by far the most skilled player to EVER play. Offensively nobody matches his skill set. And he was a shutdown defender.

I mean how the hell can you seriously rank Larry Bird ahead of Kobe with a straight face? I have been watching a lot of old school playoff games from the 80's and 90's and I always get the impression that if Kobe was in that game, he would be taking over.

So for those of you that rank him so low, why? And don't give me **** about how Kobe needed Shaq and Gasol to win titles. Jordan needed Pippen and Rodman, Larry needed McHale, and Magic needed Kareem and Worthy and everyone else.

Also if your going to say that Kobe only has 2 finals mvps and it was all Shaq in the 3peat years. (Its funny how ppl discredit Kobe like that but conveniently forget about the Magic Kareem combo), don't forget how well Kobe played in the playoffs. Kobe and Shaq could have easily split regular playoff series mvps. Sure Shaq may have had the finals mvps, but everybody knew that the real championship was always the WCF back then. Lakers vs Spurs and Lakers vs Kings were the real finals in those days. Kobe was off the charts against the Spurs. I'm not denying Shaq was the main man of the 3peat, but lets not act like Kobe was just some sidekick.

Then factor in the repeat days with Gasol and Bynum. Don't forget they beat the Celtics big 3 in 2010. Those are the same guys that took Lebron's Heat to 7 games in 2012.

So please enlighten me as to why Kobe is not on Mt. Rushmore to most of you people.

Kobe has played in an era of no touch defense.. Birds era you got knocked on you butt when you went to the paint. Kobe is an all time great no doubting that. But he isnt better than Bird.

jerellh528
06-12-2014, 04:14 PM
Have you watched broadcasted Jordan games? Go watch the entire 1991 Finals run like I have. And you notice Jordan is not only better than Kobe the comparison is a massacre by Jordan.

Have you read Phil Jackson's book where he explains the differences between them mentally? He said Jordan let the game flow to him better and he did.Go watch Jordan play, his hands and athleticism allowed him to get his shot off much getter than Kobe.

Part of the reason why Jordan took so many shots was he could create a good look for himself so easily.

Kobe had to resort to more pump fakes, turnarounds, ill advised shots where Jordan could simply elevate and blow by better to get better shots.

Yeah I've watched plenty of live Jordan games. And this is pretty much my point.

Bruno
06-12-2014, 04:17 PM
Have we forgotten how good that guy was? Its my opinion that Kobe is 2nd to none other than MJ. Other people seem to leave him out of their top 5 and even their top 10 sometimes. How? Kobe is by far the most skilled player to EVER play. Offensively nobody matches his skill set. And he was a shutdown defender.

I mean how the hell can you seriously rank Larry Bird ahead of Kobe with a straight face? I have been watching a lot of old school playoff games from the 80's and 90's and I always get the impression that if Kobe was in that game, he would be taking over.

So for those of you that rank him so low, why? And don't give me **** about how Kobe needed Shaq and Gasol to win titles. Jordan needed Pippen and Rodman, Larry needed McHale, and Magic needed Kareem and Worthy and everyone else.

Also if your going to say that Kobe only has 2 finals mvps and it was all Shaq in the 3peat years. (Its funny how ppl discredit Kobe like that but conveniently forget about the Magic Kareem combo), don't forget how well Kobe played in the playoffs. Kobe and Shaq could have easily split regular playoff series mvps. Sure Shaq may have had the finals mvps, but everybody knew that the real championship was always the WCF back then. Lakers vs Spurs and Lakers vs Kings were the real finals in those days. Kobe was off the charts against the Spurs. I'm not denying Shaq was the main man of the 3peat, but lets not act like Kobe was just some sidekick.

Then factor in the repeat days with Gasol and Bynum. Don't forget they beat the Celtics big 3 in 2010. Those are the same guys that took Lebron's Heat to 7 games in 2012.

So please enlighten me as to why Kobe is not on Mt. Rushmore to most of you people.

considering the depth of talent throughout the history of the league, it should be you who proves to us why Kobe should be on mount rushmore, not the other way around. I'd say its on you to prove that, and not on anyone to tell you why he's not. present a decent argument (it's hard Ive tried).

personally, I've found it to be impossible to rank Kobe higher than 4th or 5th (because what puts Kobe in front of GOAT A is what also puts him behind GOAT B or GOAT C, and in the attempt to push him any higher than that lands you in contradiction of what and how you prioritize you GOAT list).

Acclaimed
06-12-2014, 04:17 PM
Have you watched broadcasted Jordan games? Go watch the entire 1991 Finals run like I have. And you notice Jordan is not only better than Kobe the comparison is a massacre by Jordan.

Have you read Phil Jackson's book where he explains the differences between them mentally? He said Jordan let the game flow to him better and he did. Go watch Jordan play, his hands and athleticism allowed him to get his shot off much getter than Kobe.

Part of the reason why Jordan took so many shots was he could create a good look for himself so easily.

Kobe had to resort to more pump fakes, turnarounds, ill advised shots where Jordan could simply elevate and blow by better to get better shots.

I like how you listed 3 things that Jordan did all the time. He definitely cut down the ill advised shots later in his career (and so has Kobe) but Kobe's move's are all imitations of Jordan.

Jordan lifted. Kobe doesn't to my knowledge. Something I never understood about Kobe. He never really bulked up. I think it was because he was more worried about his conditioning, but I just never understood that.

Jordan is better than Kobe. Not arguing that. I just think you're pointing out the wrong things.

ManRam
06-12-2014, 04:23 PM
considering the depth of talent throughout the history of the league, it should be you who proves to us why Kobe should be on mount rushmore, not the other way around. I'd say its on you to prove that, and not on anyone to tell you why he's not. present a decent argument (it's hard Ive tried).

personally, I've found it to be impossible to rank Kobe higher than 4th or 5th (because what puts Kobe in front of GOAT A is what also puts him behind GOAT B or GOAT C, and in the attempt to push him any higher than that lands you in contradiction of what and how you prioritize you GOAT list).

Agreed.

Kobe may or may not be underrated, but that claim of "underrated" coming from a person who thinks he's clearly the second best player ever (without really arguing why) means little. That's the extreme opinion. If you are upset people don't think he's the second best player ever...well, the burden of proof is on you, not the rest of those people. That's a VERY lofty claim.

Acclaimed
06-12-2014, 04:23 PM
Honestly speaking of Phil Jackson I think Kobe should of gone to college like Phil points out. He had no social skills going to the NBA, and that was one of the big reasons him and Shaq couldn't get a long. 2 guys from 2 completely different worlds, and Kobe had never been in a situation where he had to work as a team. Then in a matter of 3 years he went from high school star to super star. If any of us here had that happen to us... I mean I have a giant ego as is... Then a few years later he's the champion of the world. People that hit their high points that early don't usually continue the trend.

Goose17
06-12-2014, 04:24 PM
Give me Wade over Kobe.

Yep, I said it.

WadeKobe
06-12-2014, 04:25 PM
The media really did their job. It's incredible.

Magic and Bird made the NBA popular, and Jordan finally made it big-time marketable. But by the time he did, he was gone I. The blink of an eye. Three championships, retirement, 3 championships, retirement.

What was the NBA and media to do? Anoint someone as the next MJ. Well, there was this incredibly talented kid in none other than Los Angeles California who played shooting guard. He could be Michael in Magic's town.

So... The narrative and comparisons began. And right on cue, the Lakers started winning.

The only problem was Shaq was by far more productive than him in 3 of those 4 finals seasons. But the media sold us Kobe, and when Shaq left, for the most part, the media shielded Kobe.

Then the down years and the affair hurt... A little, but the seeds had already been growing. The young kids who had only seen a little bit of Michael already believed. Kobe really was the same. Now he just needed a good comeback, just like Michael.

BAM!!

Now we have Kobephile trolls on PSD who believe Kobe is the second best player of all time. Why? Because the media sold it while they were growing up and they bought it.

Kobe is in the 10-20 range. I am less comfortable with the 15-20 range, but there are some arguments I might accept for placing him outside of 15, but I would probably disagree with tha opinion.

Same way I disagree that Marino isn't number one, but I am comfortable with arguments for 1-6.

For me, Kobe lands somewhere around 15.

MJ
MJ
KAJ
Wilt
Duncan
Bird
Shaq
LeBron
Hakeem
DRob
BigO
KG

All of them are definitely over Kobe for me.

KnicksorBust
06-12-2014, 04:27 PM
Give me Wade over Kobe.

Yep, I said it.

Wade might have won with Shaq but he's not winning with Gasol.

jerellh528
06-12-2014, 04:28 PM
Give me Wade over Kobe.

Yep, I said it.

Sure, you can have him lol

beyourself
06-12-2014, 04:28 PM
Yeah I've watched plenty of live Jordan games. And this is pretty much my point.

You were right about the athleticism thing. I just disagreed when you said Jordan was a selfish player and that he played very similar to Kobe. Jordan's athleticism and mindset allowed him to be a more controlled, less selfish and effective player.

WadeKobe
06-12-2014, 04:28 PM
Give me Wade over Kobe.

Yep, I said it.

Peak? No question.

Career? No thanks, and Wade is my favorite player all time.

While on the floor, Wade was the better player, but he just wasn on the floor enough. Kobe played much longer, much more, at a high level.

If Wade doesn't learn how to shoot the three, he will continue to age poorly and become less effective, hurting his chance of winning, even with LeBron, as the years move forward.

Acclaimed
06-12-2014, 04:29 PM
considering the depth of talent throughout the history of the league, it should be you who proves to us why Kobe should be on mount rushmore, not the other way around. I'd say its on you to prove that, and not on anyone to tell you why he's not. present a decent argument (it's hard Ive tried).

personally, I've found it to be impossible to rank Kobe higher than 4th or 5th (because what puts Kobe in front of GOAT A is what also puts him behind GOAT B or GOAT C, and in the attempt to push him any higher than that lands you in contradiction of what and how you prioritize you GOAT list).

I think this is fair... 2 does seem high, but this is basketball. This ain't a stat sport IMO. There's just some people's games you're going to rank higher. I think Hakeem is like 3-5 on my list, and no one in the world can argue me out of it lol.

Then I got Magic at like 10, and Wilt at like 2. I'm all over the place.

Also how am I suppose to tell who's in front of who when comparing Hakeem to Kobe? That's why I hate GOAT lists. It should be done position by position or not at all.

And honestly. I think Jordan isn't even the quote on quote greatest ever undisputed. I wasn't alive during Wilt. I can't sit here and tell anyone here without a doubt that Jordan was better than Wilt. I don't know. The NBA sold Jordan as a brand and we bought it hook line and sinker without even discussing it.

tripleplay2007
06-12-2014, 04:32 PM
Kobe's FG%, flopping, and attitude makes him 7th to 20th in my book.

ManRam
06-12-2014, 04:32 PM
Give me Wade over Kobe.

Yep, I said it.

If we're taking one season I might take Wade's best season over Kobe's best season. But for a career...or a 6-7 year stretch even, no way.


Wade might have won with Shaq but he's not winning with Gasol.

It wouldn't be too tough to argue that Gasol was a better player his two championship years than Shaq was in 2006. More specifically, Gasol I think clearly had better playoff runs in 09 and 10 than Shaq did in 06.

Goose17
06-12-2014, 04:39 PM
If we're taking one season I might take Wade's best season over Kobe's best season. But for a career...or a 6-7 year stretch even, no way.


I would say Wades peak was greater, Kobe has the longevity though for sure.

Acclaimed
06-12-2014, 04:39 PM
Kobe's FG%, flopping, and attitude makes him 7th to 20th in my book.

Uh Kobe doesn't flop really though lol. I mean he definitely exaggerates contact on drives like everyone ever in the NBA, but he does not pull a Wade.

KnicksorBust
06-12-2014, 04:46 PM
If we're taking one season I might take Wade's best season over Kobe's best season. But for a career...or a 6-7 year stretch even, no way.



It wouldn't be too tough to argue that Gasol was a better player his two championship years than Shaq was in 2006. More specifically, Gasol I think clearly had better playoff runs in 09 and 10 than Shaq did in 06.

When Gasol averages 25/13 on 70% from the field in 3 close-out games leading up to the Finals let me know.

WadeKobe
06-12-2014, 04:48 PM
Uh Kobe doesn't flop really though lol. I mean he definitely exaggerates contact on drives like everyone ever in the NBA, but he does not pull a Wade.

True, I can't think of a time when Kobe has blatantly flopped bad.

However, he and Ducan set the bar for the superstar whinin for every call from refs and arguing every foul called on them. Lebron and Wade are just following protocol at this point.

The Spurs and Lakers owned the league for 10 years. During tha period we learned that to win a championship you need plenty of flopping (Parker, Ginobili, Duncan, Fisher, Gasol) and plenty of whining to the referees (Kobe, Duncan, Horry, Gasol, Ginobili).

Tha people are just now gettin upset at it while the Heat are winning is not coincidental I think.

KnicksorBust
06-12-2014, 04:49 PM
I get that we've reached a point where guys like Barkley and Karl Malone get underrated but Kobe and Shaq? Seriously?

Goose17
06-12-2014, 04:53 PM
True, I can't think of a time when Kobe has blatantly flopped bad.

However, he and Ducan set the bar for the superstar whinin for every call from refs and arguing every foul called on them. Lebron and Wade are just following protocol at this point.

The Spurs and Lakers owned the league for 10 years. During tha period we learned that to win a championship you need plenty of flopping (Parker, Ginobili, Duncan, Fisher, Gasol) and plenty of whining to the referees (Kobe, Duncan, Horry, Gasol, Ginobili).

Tha people are just now gettin upset at it while the Heat are winning is not coincidental I think.

Duncan doesn't flop. He argues calls all the time but he doesn't flop.

Manu though... smh.

Bruno
06-12-2014, 04:55 PM
I get that we've reached a point where guys like Barkley and Karl Malone get underrated but Kobe and Shaq? Seriously?

a lot posters didn't see the Laker three peat, too young. I mean it was 12-14 years ago:speechless:

Bruno
06-12-2014, 05:03 PM
Agreed.

Kobe may or may not be underrated, but that claim of "underrated" coming from a person who thinks he's clearly the second best player ever (without really arguing why) means little. That's the extreme opinion. If you are upset people don't think he's the second best player ever...well, the burden of proof is on you, not the rest of those people. That's a VERY lofty claim.
yeah, if you're coming from a place where Kobe is 2nd, it's going to seem like he's underrated. Winning a Finals MVP in 2004 against Detroit could have changed his legacy trajectory. 2009 and 2010 was just clean up. Losing in 2004 and 2008 and getting squeezed out of one of those mid 2000s MVPS (during those years when 3-4 guys could have easily won it) is what keeps him out of the mount rushmore IMO.

Despite Kobes excellent help in his career, he did seem to have help at the 'worst' times in his career (first world problems). early career, and later career. Kobe is one of the few legit all time greats who actually played with scrubs from that 26-29.5 prime. He got on it early and played catch up late.


I think this is fair... 2 does seem high, but this is basketball. This ain't a stat sport IMO. There's just some people's games you're going to rank higher. I think Hakeem is like 3-5 on my list, and no one in the world can argue me out of it lol.

Then I got Magic at like 10, and Wilt at like 2. I'm all over the place.

Also how am I suppose to tell who's in front of who when comparing Hakeem to Kobe? That's why I hate GOAT lists. It should be done position by position or not at all.

And honestly. I think Jordan isn't even the quote on quote greatest ever undisputed. I wasn't alive during Wilt. I can't sit here and tell anyone here without a doubt that Jordan was better than Wilt. I don't know. The NBA sold Jordan as a brand and we bought it hook line and sinker without even discussing it.
I have Magic at the trail end of my top ten also. he was majestically excellent on offense but he had a short career and wasn't a defensive asset. I totally agree with the last thing you said too. were essentially all just pleasing our egos trying to rank bigs with wings and smalls.

Bruno
06-12-2014, 05:07 PM
Kobe's FG%, flopping, and attitude makes him 7th to 20th in my book.

the difference between 45% and 50% from the field is one missed field goal attempt per twenty field goal attempts.

10/20 vs 9/20.

when a guy shoots a twenty year career clip of 84% at the foul line and is 3rd in NBA history in most regular season free-throws made it more than makes up for that one missed FG per 20 FGA.

if you're gona criticize Kobes scoring efficiency make it specific to his three point shooting. Kobe has attempted almost 5,000 threes since 1996 (6th most attempts in NBA history), but he only shoots a career clip of 34%. thats not a high enough percentage to justify that many attempts.

KnicksorBust
06-12-2014, 05:12 PM
the difference between 45% and 50% from the field is one missed field goal attempt per twenty field goal attempts.

10/20 vs 9/20.

when a guy shoots a twenty year career clip of 84% at the foul line and is 3rd in NBA history in most regular season made free-throws made it more than makes up for that one missed FG per 20 FGA. if you're gona criticize Kobe criticism him taking way too many career threes.

Is this a serious response? His TS% compares terribly to all the other Top 5 candidates.

BigCityofDreams
06-12-2014, 05:15 PM
the difference between 45% and 50% from the field is one missed field goal attempt per twenty field goal attempts.

10/20 vs 9/20.

when a guy shoots a twenty year career clip of 84% at the foul line and is 3rd in NBA history in most regular season free-throws made it more than makes up for that one missed FG per 20 FGA. if you're gona criticize Kobe criticism him taking way too many career threes. Kobe has attempted almost 5,000 threes since 1996 (6th most attempts in NBA history), but he only shoots a career clip of 34%. thats not a high enough percentage to justify that many attempts.

Yea at some point he decided hmmmm I can shoot threes now so I'll take them at will. As a fan of the Lakers that is frustrating.

Bruno
06-12-2014, 05:21 PM
Is this a serious response? His TS% compares terribly to all the other Top 5 candidates.

not really. he has a higher TS% than Wilt, Russell, Duncan, Hakeem and other players people put in their top five. he's within 1.5% points of MJ and Bird too.

Shaq, Magic, and KAJ are the only non comparisons, and Magic wasn't a scorer first.

what are you talking about Willis? are you messin' and it went over my head?

Bruno
06-12-2014, 05:26 PM
Yea at some point he decided hmmmm I can shoot threes now so I'll take them at will. As a fan of the Lakers that is frustrating.

it's because he's streaky. he holds the record for most threes made in a game.

the real problem grew in 2009-2010. that was the year he broke all the fingers and ripped those ligaments in his hand. he kept shooting from distance after those injuries but I think his touch was changed. Kobe has shot 32% from three in 297 games since 2009-2010. Before the hand injuries he shot 35% over a seven year period from 2003-2009.

he shot a career high of 38.3% in 2003 on 4 attempts per game. although he has shot over 40% from three twice during his playoff career.

KnicksorBust
06-12-2014, 05:34 PM
not really. he has a higher TS% than Wilt, Russell, Duncan, Hakeem and other players people put in their top five. he's within 1.5% points of MJ and Bird too.

Do you think it's fair to count Mj's years on the Wizards against him?


Shaq, Magic, and KAJ are the only non comparisons, and Magic wasn't a scorer first.

Magic and KAJ were so crazy efficient it's hard to ignore.


what are you talking about Willis? are you messin' and it went over my head?

:laugh: I actually was serious but you brought up a great point with Wilt/Russ/Duncan/Hakeem.

I don't even think I know your top 10 buddy. What is it?

beliges
06-12-2014, 05:36 PM
That is incorrect. Shaq is the most dominant player of the era. Duncan is the most decorated.

That is highly incorrect. Shaq went to 5 Finals and won 4 titles in that era. Duncan went to 4 Finals in that era and won 4 titles. Kobe went to 7 Finals in that era and won 5 titles. Each of these players had great teams around them. Kobe simply dominated the era moreso than Duncan and Shaq. Shaq might have been a more dominant individual player as far as the paint is concerned, but Kobe controlled all aspects of the game given that the ball was in his hands and he facilitated the offense.

So its inaccurate to say Kobe wasnt the most dominant of his era when clearly he won more than Shaq or Duncan did in the same exact era.

Bruno
06-12-2014, 05:42 PM
Do you think it's fair to count Mj's years on the Wizards against him?
Fair question (for the sake of the numbers I mentioned earlier, yeah I did). Do we count Kobes teen years against him? (some what irrelevant question since MJ benefits much more from having his Wizards years removed than Kobe does having his teen years removed gauging just by %).



Magic and KAJ were so crazy efficient it's hard to ignore.
true. thats the magic of not stoping the ball or taking 5,000 threes. haha.




:laugh: I actually was serious but you brought up a great point with Wilt/Russ/Duncan/Hakeem.

I don't even think I know your top 10 buddy. What is it?
haha i thought after I responded that you were referencing another debate where we were both arguing the same thing.

my list seems to be always changing. I like tiers, I can't rank in specific order, no matter what I do it looks wrong.

MJ-Wilt-KJ
Duncan-Hakeem-Kobe-Shaq-Magic
Bird-Russell-James-Malone
Roberson-
everybody else


ish.

Acclaimed
06-12-2014, 05:47 PM
the difference between 45% and 50% from the field is one missed field goal attempt per twenty field goal attempts.

10/20 vs 9/20.

when a guy shoots a twenty year career clip of 84% at the foul line and is 3rd in NBA history in most regular season free-throws made it more than makes up for that one missed FG per 20 FGA.

if you're gona criticize Kobes scoring efficiency make it specific to his three point shooting. Kobe has attempted almost 5,000 threes since 1996 (6th most attempts in NBA history), but he only shoots a career clip of 34%. thats not a high enough percentage to justify that many attempts.

This. I think 34% is just on par with equalling what 50% on 2's equates too. Which that percentage is down because of silly shots lets just be honest. Kobe is better than a 34% 3 point shooter.

He's also so right about Kobe from the line. Kobe has made a career off getting to the line. That's why fg% with Kobe is a little misleading.

BigCityofDreams
06-12-2014, 05:48 PM
it's because he's streaky. he holds the record for most threes made in a game.

the real problem grew in 2009-2010. that was the year he broke all the fingers and ripped those ligaments in his hand. he kept shooting from distance after those injuries but I think his touch was changed. Kobe has shot 32% from three in 297 games since 2009-2010. Before the hand injuries he shot 35% over a seven year period from 2003-2009.

he shot a career high of 38.3% in 2003 on 4 attempts per game. although he has shot over 40% from three twice during his playoff career.

Very streaky. When he's hot every shot goes in but when he's off oh boy look out. Thanks for the breakdown also.

Bruno
06-12-2014, 05:50 PM
Shaq hasn't done much dominating in this league since 2003, and he hasn't done any since 2005-2006. its 2014, why are we talking about Shaq as a part of this era?

Shaq doesn't truly belong to any era, he is a bridge player, a player who connects generations, much like Kareem. i guess thats inevitable when you play 20 years. anyways, talking about Shaq gets very grey when were talking about "this era". he's 42.

jerellh528
06-12-2014, 05:50 PM
Damn Bruno, you're making some excellent points. Well done, it's obvious you know basketball.

Bruno
06-12-2014, 05:54 PM
This. I think 34% is just on par with equalling what 50% on 2's equates too. Which that percentage is down because of silly shots lets just be honest. Kobe is better than a 34% 3 point shooter.

He's also so right about Kobe from the line. Kobe has made a career off getting to the line. That's why fg% with Kobe is a little misleading.

No other wing or small in NBA history has made more shots from the strike than Kobe.

anyone know the exact % necessary from three to be equal to 50% on two's from a TS% pov?


Very streaky. When he's hot every shot goes in but when he's off oh boy look out. Thanks for the breakdown also.
I know. the problem is that he knows spreading the floor is a great advantage to have in an aging players game. his "student" mentality took over instead of realistically looking at his body, the results of the action and making the adjustment. in that sense you could say Kobe's relentless study of the game got in the way of acknowledging the ultimate results of the application/accepting the physical condition of his hands.

Bruno
06-12-2014, 06:02 PM
Damn Bruno, you're making some excellent points. Well done, it's obvious you know basketball.

having Magic and Bird low on my top ten list hurts my credibility with most people (especially older fans), but I stand by it. haha.

Raps08-09 Champ
06-12-2014, 06:06 PM
Under ranked? :laugh2:

Acclaimed
06-12-2014, 06:10 PM
No other wing or small in NBA history has made more shots from the strike than Kobe.

anyone know the exact % necessary from three to be equal to 50% on two's from a TS% pov?


I know. the problem is that he knows spreading the floor is a great advantage to have in an aging players game. his "student" mentality took over instead of realistically looking at his body, the results of the action and making the adjustment. in that sense you could say Kobe's relentless study of the game got in the way of acknowledging the ultimate results of the application/accepting the physical condition of his hands.

I'm 99% sure it's 33.33333%

Acclaimed
06-12-2014, 06:11 PM
So I'm probably wrong lol.

beyourself
06-12-2014, 06:23 PM
Shaq hasn't done much dominating in this league since 2003, and he hasn't done any since 2005-2006. its 2014, why are we talking about Shaq as a part of this era?

Shaq doesn't truly belong to any era, he is a bridge player, a player who connects generations, much like Kareem. i guess thats inevitable when you play 20 years. anyways, talking about Shaq gets very grey when were talking about "this era". he's 42.

Good point, era is kind of subjective. I don't consider current times to be the Shaq era. Or the Kobe or Duncan era. I think that ship sailed. It's more the LeBron/Durant era.

Sadds The Gr8
06-12-2014, 06:36 PM
I can understand arguments ranking him at about 4-6 all-time, but gtfoh with top 2. I personally have him around 7-9

Raidaz4Life
06-12-2014, 06:39 PM
I think the dilemma with Kobe is that he is a probably a top 3 basketball talent in terms of the skills he has but he just was never able to turn it into a top 3 career.


If he wasn't such a "me" player and didn't take so many ill-advised shots and put more emphasis on D, I could see him being a clear cut top 5 player. But you get a lot of baggage with Kobe that keeps him out of the top 5.

BALLER R
06-12-2014, 06:40 PM
Kobe one of the most skilled guys to ever play the game but doesn't get enough credit. Kobe just isn't liked for whatever reason.

I found it interesting when Tony Parker said Duncan didn't talk to him when he first came to the spurs. Kobe didn't talk to smush Parker. Duncan is considered a good teammate but Kobe is labeled as an *******. It's just perception honestly. Kobe is top 10 all time. People saying he's not top 25 is clearly ignorant.

amos1er
06-12-2014, 06:42 PM
Most people have Kobe around 10th all time. That's not underrated dude. That's pretty high.

Lol. Let me guess, Lebron is in your top five and you will get offended if people leave him out of their top ten of course. To that I say... Don't get offended... I have Lebron at 13-15 all time. That's not underrated dude. That's pretty high.

amos1er
06-12-2014, 06:51 PM
Kobe is easily 6-8 range. Arguably a bit higher when all is said and done.

jerellh528
06-12-2014, 06:57 PM
Honestly rankings don't matter. It's a fairy take made up by us. Every list is biased and everyone ranks based on their own system, of course were a not going to have the same rankings, but that doesn't matter anyways because it's made up anyways. Kobe's not going to hang a plaque in his office that says "ranked 4th best player ever." The only spot that matters is occupied by mj.

Acclaimed
06-12-2014, 07:07 PM
Lol. Let me guess, Lebron is in your top five and you will get offended if people leave him out of their top ten of course. To that I say... Don't get offended... I have Lebron at 13-15 all time. That's not underrated dude. That's pretty high.

Not a Lebron thread. Please discuss Kobe. Lebron isn't the litmus test for basketball players.

Also I don't think anyone should get "offended" by how someone ranks a basketball player. If you do you're kind of just weak willed.

Acclaimed
06-12-2014, 07:10 PM
Honestly rankings don't matter. It's a fairy take made up by us. Every list is biased and everyone ranks based on their own system, of course were a not going to have the same rankings, but that doesn't matter anyways because it's made up anyways. Kobe's not going to hang a plaque in his office that says "ranked 4th best player ever." The only spot that matters is occupied by mj.

Like I said earlier we can't even make that distinction. We weren't there for Wilt (I'm guessing). None of us can truly say we know how good Wilt was compared to the competition in his era, and that MJ's was in fact the better player.

But I agree with the premise of the post. Rankings are stupid.

BigCityofDreams
06-12-2014, 07:16 PM
Like I said earlier we can't even make that distinction. We weren't there for Wilt (I'm guessing). None of us can truly say we know how good Wilt was compared to the competition in his era, and that MJ's was in fact the better player.

But I agree with the premise of the post. Rankings are stupid.

Stupid probably but damn it's fun to debate it back and forth especially when we break down the stats and accomplishments of these players. These are some of the best to ever play the game. I'm just glad we actually have a place to discuss things like this.

smith&wesson
06-12-2014, 07:23 PM
in 10 years everyone will be talking about how great kobe was..

he is top 5 all time, easily to me.

Miltstar
06-12-2014, 07:35 PM
comparing point guards to wingmen to big men is foolish to me. players should only be ranked against guys that played a similar role

Jamiecballer
06-12-2014, 09:25 PM
Oh dear. Kobe is a great great player but not amongst the game truly elite. Almost though.

IndyRealist
06-12-2014, 10:47 PM
I'm confused. You say Kobe was the closest thing to MJ. Maybe he was stylistically, the way he played the game, but I disagree.

LeBron plays nothing like MJ. Good for him, he has his own skillset.

Kobe may have a lot of Jordan's moves, but he doesn't play like Jordan. Jordan was much more of a team player and a smarter player. He didn't take as many ill-advised shots, he played with more regular defensive intensity. He was more aggressive and better off ball. Better decision making with his drives and passes. And Jordan blows him away athletically.

And the biggest difference was Jordan was more inclined to let the game come to him. When Kobe's shot wasn't falling he typically shot his team back into it or out of it. Jordan stayed within himself much better than Kobe. Jordan would focus his attention to other areas of the game.

All the people who say Kobe played exactly like Jordan have not actually watched broadcasted Jordan games. Just the highlights. Jordan was so much better than Kobe it's not even funny, the comparison of Jordan vs Kobe is a total massacre.

So I really just don't get it how Kobe was supposed to be the second coming of Jordan.
That's not what I said at all. Kobe was the best wing player in the post-Jordan era (late 90's-early 00's), and he won rings at that time. That does not make him a contender for GOAT, that just means that just means he was a very talented player in the right place (and media market) at the right time. He never, ever came close to measuring up to Jordan, statistically. I never said anything about play style, or selfishness, etc.

You're forgetting your history then.. Kobe when he first started really doing well was definitely a contender. Honestly if Shaq/Phil never leave we might be talking about that right now... The few years of struggling Kobe that he brought on himself really hurt those chances from ever happening (not saying he's the only one at fault, but he has to take some responsibility in that, and Phil left too so he obviously didn't want to coach Kobe).

He's also one of the best comeback story's. The way he blew it in the finals, and then bit his tongue and asked Phil to come back, and rolled off 2 more rings without Shaq is awesome. It was the point in Kobe's career where it wasn't all about him finally. The point I started really liking Kobe again.

Considering he had the most dominant overall player of the era (Shaq), it's dubious how much of the team success can really be laid at Kobe's feet. And to get his next two rings, they went out and got a "totally worth $20 million at the time" Paul Gasol.

I'm not a Kobe hater by any stretch. He's been an all-NBA player every year he's been a starter and not injured. But that does not make him a contender for the GOAT. MJ, and now Lebron assuming his career plays out, are on a completely different level.

Edit: After reading back a couple of pages, I'll add a caveat to what I said. Kobe gets an "injury" bump for playing with broken fingers, etc. If he had lucked out and managed to spend his career relatively uninjured, he -might- have been up there. But unfortunately for all of us that's not what happened.

WadeKobe
06-12-2014, 11:06 PM
What's most unfortunate is that Kobe is a player who cannot be discussed rationally. He was sold to us with a narrative packages around him and if you don't buy the narrative you're a "hater", instead of just a rational basketball fan who thinks for themselves.

AssistantCoach
06-12-2014, 11:07 PM
Kobe is over rated. Not a top 10 player of all time. Might not even be top 20 TBH.

Hotone1401
06-12-2014, 11:44 PM
Oh dear. Kobe is a great great player but not amongst the game truly elite. Almost though.

You have no credibility with a post like this. It's clear hatred from you, plain and simple.

siix
06-12-2014, 11:47 PM
because there are a lot of young ppl on here who probably never watched kobe play....kobe is top 5 anybody who says no is a hater.....im not even a laker fan

siix
06-12-2014, 11:50 PM
just ignore these trolls on this forum...ask the analysts,writers, and anybody associated with the nba they will all say top 5 hands down....

beliges
06-12-2014, 11:53 PM
just ignore these trolls on this forum...ask the analysts,writers, and anybody associated with the nba they will all say top 5 hands down....

Kobe is one of the 5-6 greatest players to ever play. Anyone that tries to argue against that is either a straight hater or just plain dumb. It's not a coincidence he got 5 rings. It's not easy winning championships.

Lakers + Giants
06-13-2014, 12:02 AM
I think 7-10 for sure, A case can be made for any of those IMO.

Hotone1401
06-13-2014, 12:14 AM
Kobe is one of the 5-6 greatest players to ever play. Anyone that tries to argue against that is either a straight hater or just plain dumb. It's not a coincidence he got 5 rings. It's not easy winning championships.

Exactly. Ask Lebron. He had to team up with two superstars and deplete the whole Eastern conference to guarantee himself a seat in the finals every year and he still struggles to win a title.

Is it just a coincidence that there is a Kobe bashing thread going on during the same time that Lebron is losing another Finals series? I think not. Just ignore the haters.

Hawkeye15
06-13-2014, 01:35 AM
to the OP: He is underrated in your mind because you have him at #2, which he is not at all.

Now, he is not underrated by the masses. Widely regarded as the top 8-12 player ever. Right were he belongs.

FOXHOUND
06-13-2014, 01:41 AM
to the OP: He is underrated in your mind because you have him at #2, which he is not at all.

Now, he is not underrated by the masses. Widely regarded as the top 8-12 player ever. Right were he belongs.

The masses of PSD, maybe.

Supreme LA
06-13-2014, 02:25 AM
The masses of PSD, maybe.

I would say you're right only because the majority of basketball fans all over the world have Kobe as top 5-10.

jerellh528
06-13-2014, 02:28 AM
What's most unfortunate is that Kobe is a player who cannot be discussed rationally. He was sold to us with a narrative packages around him and if you don't buy the narrative you're a "hater", instead of just a rational basketball fan who thinks for themselves.

This sounds exactly like Lebron.

FOXHOUND
06-13-2014, 02:33 AM
I would say you're right only because the majority of basketball fans all over the world have Kobe as top 5-10.

Kobe is the most hated on player ever, so I think it really depends who you ask. The Elo Rating on Basketball-Reference.com is always good for a laugh. It's a vote system that simply puts two random players against each other with their resumes and you vote which is better. Cool concept, should have been a nice all-time list from the fans perspective.

Only that it is, and you see how bad bias is. Right now Duncan is #3, I love Duncan but that's a tad high. Oscar is #2, which is insanely high. LeBron is #9, I think that's fair. Durant is #13, way too high at this stage. Kareem is 27th, I have no idea how that's possible. But Kobe Bryant, oh Kobe. To see how loathed he is, how much people hate that he's successful, is truly hilarious.

Kobe Bean Bryant ranks....

wait for it...

THREE HUNDRED AND NINE!

309th player of all time, according to fans in the Elo Rating system. Think about how much consistent hate and effort must have been put it to get him there. And that is why it's hard to discuss Kobe objectively on the internet, because the bias against him is absoutely insane and the haters can't admit it.

Jeffy25
06-13-2014, 02:57 AM
Eras and positions make things harder.

As a shooting guard, I like him top 5 for the position.

Hotone1401
06-13-2014, 02:58 AM
What's most unfortunate is that Kobe is a player who cannot be discussed rationally. He was sold to us with a narrative packages around him and if you don't buy the narrative you're a "hater", instead of just a rational basketball fan who thinks for themselves.

You're talking about Lebron right?

Hotone1401
06-13-2014, 02:59 AM
Eras and positions make things harder.

As a shooting guard, I like him top 5 for the position.

You're stupid. Name 4 shooting guards that have had better careers please. Otherwise stfu and go away.

Jeffy25
06-13-2014, 03:00 AM
You're stupid. Name 4 shooting guards that have had better careers please. Otherwise stfu and go away.

Yeah....didn't say he was 5th. I said top 5 for his position is a good safe place for him.

Nice insult though.

Hawkeye15
06-13-2014, 03:01 AM
The masses of PSD, maybe.

meaning?

Jeffy25
06-13-2014, 03:03 AM
I think he is somewhere near oscar.

Top 8-14 player of all time. Depends on some things.

He certainly isn't the second best of all time though.

L8kers4life
06-13-2014, 03:03 AM
[QUOTE=Jeffy25;28620336]Yeah....didn't say he was 5th. I said top 5 for his position is a good safe place for him.

so answer the question, name 2 sgs better than kobe not named Jordan, go ahead I will wait

Jeffy25
06-13-2014, 03:04 AM
[QUOTE=Jeffy25;28620336]Yeah....didn't say he was 5th. I said top 5 for his position is a good safe place for him.

so answer the question, name 2 sgs better than kobe not named Jordan, go ahead I will wait

Again, not what I said.

Gotta learn how to read man

jerellh528
06-13-2014, 03:12 AM
[QUOTE=L8kers4life;28620342]

Again, not what I said.

Gotta learn how to read man

You shoulda just said top 2 at his position instead of top 5 then. Seemed like an obvious bait from a mod.

CityofTreez
06-13-2014, 03:33 AM
Russell
Kareem
O.Robertson
Bird
Magic
MJ
D.Robinson (?)
Hakeem
Shaq
Duncan
Kobe

When it's all said and done though, I think Durant & James will produce better scoring numbers than Kobe, which is his bread-n-butter. The ring argument is dumb too me because if we value rings over scoring/stats, then Robert Horry is then some GOAT. Plus, he was blessed with a great market, great coach, and one of the most dominating players in Shaq!

jerellh528
06-13-2014, 03:37 AM
It always baffles me that people don't understand certain players have far greater value in the quest for rings than others. For instance, horry was a role player who averaged 7 points, 5 rebounds and 2 assists for his career. I cringe every time someone tries that route.

CityofTreez
06-13-2014, 03:40 AM
Well, if people bring rings into the argument are we not supposed to count rings?
Yes, it's cringe-worthy, but it was brought up and there you go!

CityofTreez
06-13-2014, 03:43 AM
And also, I'm a Sac Kings fan!

I don't care how you try to spin the irrelevance of Robert Horry, his shot against us enabled the Lakers to go on and advance to the Finals! Hence, adding another ring on that finger for Kobe.

Hotone1401
06-13-2014, 06:22 AM
Yeah....didn't say he was 5th. I said top 5 for his position is a good safe place for him.

Nice insult though.

Saying top 5 at his position is basically insinuating that you have him 5th. And you claim that we can't read?? Any person with any sense can see that whether it was explicit or not, so it's an obvious attempt at baiting by you.

Jeffy25
06-13-2014, 07:41 AM
[QUOTE=Jeffy25;28620343]

You shoulda just said top 2 at his position instead of top 5 then. Seemed like an obvious bait from a mod.

I'm not saying he is too 2 either.

He is easily in the top 5 at his position all time.

BigCityofDreams
06-13-2014, 11:16 AM
[QUOTE=jerellh528;28620355]

I'm not saying he is too 2 either.

He is easily in the top 5 at his position all time.

He is though. He's better than West and Drexler and those are the only two players fans could put above him.

BigCityofDreams
06-13-2014, 11:28 AM
It always baffles me that people don't understand certain players have far greater value in the quest for rings than others. For instance, horry was a role player who averaged 7 points, 5 rebounds and 2 assists for his career. I cringe every time someone tries that route.

Exactly it's as if they aren't thinking this through. "Well if we're going by rings guys like Horry are up there with the best" Horry never made an All NBA team let alone an All Star game. Rings for certain players weigh more when you are the number 1 or 2 guy.

Hotone1401
06-13-2014, 04:13 PM
[QUOTE=jerellh528;28620355]

I'm not saying he is too 2 either.

He is easily in the top 5 at his position all time.

So you're basically saying Kobe is the 5th best SG of all-time. You're a joke. You couldn't name 2 better SG's and have anyone agree with you.

Jeffy25
06-13-2014, 04:16 PM
[QUOTE=Jeffy25;28620532]

So you're basically saying Kobe is the 5th best SG of all-time. You're a joke. You couldn't name 2 better SG's and have anyone agree with you.

I can't help your inability to read.

No, I never said that, and watch the insults.

Hotone1401
06-13-2014, 04:19 PM
[QUOTE=Hotone1401;28622086]

I can't help your inability to read.

No, I never said that, and watch the insults.

I can certainly read in between the lines as to what you're insinuating.

Let's forget what range you have Kobe in all-time for a sec. Please list for me every SG that you think is better please because that would help my confusion with your misleading posts.

Jeffy25
06-13-2014, 04:20 PM
[QUOTE=Jeffy25;28622097]

I can certainly read in between the lines as to what you're insinuating.

Let's forget what range you have Kobe in all-time for a sec. Please list for me every SG that you think is better please because that would help my confusion with your misleading posts.

I didn't insinuate anything, that's the problem.

I said he is certainly a top 5 player at his position all time.

He is probably top 3, but he is certainly top 5.

I'm not implying there are 4 better shooting guards all time. Maybe respond to what people actually say, rather than what you think they are saying.

Hotone1401
06-13-2014, 04:25 PM
[QUOTE=Hotone1401;28622102]

I didn't insinuate anything, that's the problem.

I said he is certainly a top 5 player at his position all time.

He is probably top 3, but he is certainly top 5.

I'm not implying there are 4 better shooting guards all time. Maybe respond to what people actually say, rather than what you think they are saying.

And still, you can't even name 2 better SG's. I rest my case.

Goose17
06-13-2014, 04:25 PM
Kobe is the most hated on player ever]

No he isn't. Lebron is.

Jeffy25
06-13-2014, 04:26 PM
[QUOTE=Jeffy25;28622112]

And still, you can even name 2 better SG's. I rest my case.

I'm not trying to make any lists!

Why is this so difficult for you?

I didn't say he was the 5th best. I didn't say he was 3rd best. I just said he sits safely in the top 5 at his position all time.

Jordan too. It doesn't mean there are 3 better SG's all time.

No lists are being made

BigCityofDreams
06-13-2014, 04:41 PM
No he isn't. Lebron is.

Yea the correct term would have been Kobe was the most hated player ever.

FOXHOUND
06-13-2014, 05:06 PM
meaning?

If you look at what I quoted I'm referring to your masses comment. First of all, there isn't a proper way to ever judge that. Second of all, the PSD community wouldn't be the voice of the masses throughout the world, just the voice of a small community that frequents PSD. It would be like polling 100 people in North Dakota on a subject and then expecting that to be a firm view for the entire country.

Goose17
06-13-2014, 05:26 PM
Personally I feel rings are a reflection of teams, not individuals. That's why people don't hold as much weight to them. Teams win championships, individuals don't, see my sig, Jordan said as much himself.

Based on the criteria of being a non-role player and having the most rings, the top 10 players would be;

1. Bill Russell
2. Bob Cousy
3. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
4. Michael Jordan
5. Scottie Pippen
6. George Mikan
7. Magic Johnson
8. Dennis Rodman
9. Kobe Bryant
10. Robert Parish

All of those guys achieved either a place on an All-NBA team, an MVP award or multiple all-star appearances.

That doesn't look right to me.

Championships obviously count for something, but it's more to do with the team as a whole than it is to do with any individual. At least, in my opinion.

Jamiecballer
06-13-2014, 05:45 PM
You have no credibility with a post like this. It's clear hatred from you, plain and simple.
meh. its true and I'm plenty old enough to have seen his entire career.

Tony_Starks
06-13-2014, 05:48 PM
I think we confuse psd popular opinion with general basketball fan consensus. If we went by that thinking Kobe would be anywhere from top 15-25, Iverson would be just another "overrated chucker," Lebron would currently be the 2nd best all time.... so forth and so on.

I've yet to meet a reasonable basketball fan that doesn't have Kobe top 8 easy, top 10 minimum. I have however met people that hate Kobe with a passion, all for NON basketball reasons....

Hotone1401
06-13-2014, 05:52 PM
meh. its true and I'm plenty old enough to have seen his entire career.

I'm old enough to have seen his entire career as well. Look, it's never anything new from you. You've been a Kobe hater judging by your history of posts. That is why I say you have no credibility.

lajoie
06-13-2014, 06:04 PM
Duncan is already past Kobe.

nastynice
06-13-2014, 08:36 PM
Here's the thing about kobe. His game is SO SIMILAR to jordan's that everyone can clearly see that he is a level below him. So his rep will always take a hit cuz of that. Whereas you look at shaq, the dream, magic, etc, these guys you can always put them in that top tier cuz you can always make a case for either of them being ranked right at or above jordan, depending on what it is that you would want to look for in a player. If someone believes building the best way to build a team is to start from the big man, and then build around, you can make a case for taking one of the great bigs over him. If you think the best is to get a man that knows how to distribute the ball, you can make a case for magic, etc. But kobe, he's always gonna be jordan mini.

And, the fact is, Jordan is the standard. He's just by default the bar that has been set. And he earned it.

king4day
06-13-2014, 09:37 PM
Top ten for sure. I still have him better than LeBron in his prime. Offensively he couldn't be stopped and defensively he was a pest. Different positions but I got to witness firsthand, as a Suns fan, what he could do on both sides of the ball. Nobody, since MJ, has a passion for the game like he did/does.

I hate him but his game is nearly unparalleled.

Hawkeye15
06-13-2014, 10:52 PM
[QUOTE=Jeffy25;28620532]

So you're basically saying Kobe is the 5th best SG of all-time. You're a joke. You couldn't name 2 better SG's and have anyone agree with you.

yeah, I would have a hard time arguing Kobe is not the 2nd best SG ever, even if you want to throw in West, he played a lot of PG.

Fact is, I HATE Kobe. But he is the 2nd best SG to ever play the game.

AIRMAR72
06-14-2014, 02:28 AM
I'm hoping Kobe can give us one last run to the finals. Hopefully against Le***** and the heatkobe is FINISH he has NOTHING left what can he do against the Youngblood in today's NBA and barely running on fumes and with average IQ tobe has never proved to be a true leader to the league OR is teammates to be a play maker or make player's around him better. The man his a wanna be watered down poorman Jordan I rank him at #29

Hotone1401
06-14-2014, 02:50 AM
kobe is FINISH he has NOTHING left what can he do against the Youngblood in today's NBA and barely running on fumes and with average IQ tobe has never proved to be a true leader to the league OR is teammates to be a play maker or make player's around him better. The man his a wanna be watered down poorman Jordan I rank him at #29

You are just special.

Bruno
06-14-2014, 02:55 AM
kobe is FINISH he has NOTHING left what can he do against the Youngblood in today's NBA and barely running on fumes and with average IQ tobe has never proved to be a true leader to the league OR is teammates to be a play maker or make player's around him better. The man his a wanna be watered down poorman Jordan I rank him at #29

29th best SG?

IndyRealist
06-14-2014, 08:45 AM
Kobe is the most hated on player ever, so I think it really depends who you ask. The Elo Rating on Basketball-Reference.com is always good for a laugh. It's a vote system that simply puts two random players against each other with their resumes and you vote which is better. Cool concept, should have been a nice all-time list from the fans perspective.

Only that it is, and you see how bad bias is. Right now Duncan is #3, I love Duncan but that's a tad high. Oscar is #2, which is insanely high. LeBron is #9, I think that's fair. Durant is #13, way too high at this stage. Kareem is 27th, I have no idea how that's possible. But Kobe Bryant, oh Kobe. To see how loathed he is, how much people hate that he's successful, is truly hilarious.

Kobe Bean Bryant ranks....

wait for it...

THREE HUNDRED AND NINE!

309th player of all time, according to fans in the Elo Rating system. Think about how much consistent hate and effort must have been put it to get him there. And that is why it's hard to discuss Kobe objectively on the internet, because the bias against him is absoutely insane and the haters can't admit it.

ELO is proof that top 10 lists, and in any way asking the opinion of large groups of people, are stupid. This includes sports writers, analysts, PSDers, etc. The masses will never be informed enough to reach reasonable conclusions. They prove it every year with awards voting.

Edit: just caught up on the thread, how are Hotone's posts not deleted, mods? Nothing but picking fights and name calling. I get it, mods sleep too.

hidalgo
06-14-2014, 09:54 AM
[QUOTE=Hotone1401;28622086]

yeah, I would have a hard time arguing Kobe is not the 2nd best SG ever, even if you want to throw in West, he played a lot of PG.

Fact is, I HATE Kobe. But he is the 2nd best SG to ever play the game.i think my hate for Kobe is in the upper 99.9%. to say i despise him is an understatement. i think he's really just a glorified T-Mac who had amazing rosters to play with. Shaquille spoon feeding him 3 cheap titles even Allan Houston or Sprewell could have won in his place(MJ would have won every single year with Shaquille, & got plenty of finals mvps) then Jerry West gives them prime Pau Gasol(HOF bigman for sure, him in his prime was awesome) Pau for Kwame freaking Brownl(nobody knew Marc Gasol would end up pretty good, prime Pau still kills prime Marc anyday) outrage of a trade, & suddenly they had this insane 3 headed monster of bigmen, Gasol/Bynum/Odom, & they rebounded everything, Kobe's bricks, etc, EVERYTHING, & they could all score really well. so spoon fed 2 more titles by Jerry West.

i could go on & on all day about how overrated he is, his horrible 2000 finals 15 ppg 36%, his horrible 2004 finals, crap 2008 finals, quiting vs PHX game 7 2006, rape, ratting on Shaquille when his name shouldn't have been mention, rat baastard, running Shaq out of town, aloof, arrogant prick, most unlikable player ever, forcing 50 point games against crap teams to make himself look cool(espn beyond hypes it & that fuels him to keep th selfish crap up, forcing 4 50 point games in a row as some kinda middle finger to MJ(but KB only had those games vs crappy teams almost always like a sissy, MJ had his vs playoff teams mostly like a killer & had 15 more in far less games, the ultimate scorer His Airness), making his number 24 (1 over 23) his olympic number 10 (1 over MJ's #9) he picked a war with MJ & lost, but everything about all that stuff is beyond annoying, & i'll always despise him...

having said all that, he is probably the 2nd best SG ever, credentials alone (great rosters, twilight zone Gasol trade, & Shaq spoon feeding 3 to Kobe with his bib in his high chair). if i wanted to be fair, i'd rank him 12-15th-ish. those lucky rosters & Shaquille turned a guy abouy as good as T-mac was into this way overblown overrated legend. he was outplayed by Shaq in all 4 finals they made together. outplayed by Reggie Miller, Jalen Rose, & Austin freaking Croshere. WTF kb? slap yourself. outplayed by Iverson, Billups, rip hamilton, Pierce, & Ray Allen. outplayed by 9 players in the finals, & outplayed in all his first 5 trips. saved a little face his last 2 finals winning & playing the best in both. but the credentials, stats, mvps awards, finals mvps, idiotic things he's done & the past mediocre finals should keep him from ever being compared to Jordan. laughable really, & insulting to His Airness.

he's right on Wade & Drexler's level as an actual basketball player, which is definitely great, but not top 10, not for me ohhhh no thanks, i'd get titles easier from 10-12 others. he can take his arrogant low IQ fadeaway 22 foot bricks vs double teams, & get on down the road away from my team. the GOAT MJ by far over Kobe. really i'd rather have Clyde or Wade on my team, because they make the right plays & don't try & force things against doubles because of ego (kobe ego, "ewwww no fcking double's gonna stop me") *Fade away 22 footer* bonk!) Clyde or Wade never played so dumb, & so selfish

beliges
06-14-2014, 11:12 AM
[QUOTE=Hawkeye15;28623485]i think my hate for Kobe is in the upper 99.9%. to say i despise him is an understatement. i think he's really just a glorified T-Mac who had amazing rosters to play with. Shaquille spoon feeding him 3 cheap titles even Allan Houston or Sprewell could have won in his place(MJ would have won every single year with Shaquille, & got plenty of finals mvps) then Jerry West gives them prime Pau Gasol(HOF bigman for sure, him in his prime was awesome) Pau for Kwame freaking Brownl(nobody knew Marc Gasol would end up pretty good, prime Pau still kills prime Marc anyday) outrage of a trade, & suddenly they had this insane 3 headed monster of bigmen, Gasol/Bynum/Odom, & they rebounded everything, Kobe's bricks, etc, EVERYTHING, & they could all score really well. so spoon fed 2 more titles by Jerry West.

i could go on & on all day about how overrated he is, his horrible 2000 finals 15 ppg 36%, his horrible 2004 finals, crap 2008 finals, quiting vs PHX game 7 2006, rape, ratting on Shaquille when his name shouldn't have been mention, rat baastard, running Shaq out of town, aloof, arrogant prick, most unlikable player ever, forcing 50 point games against crap teams to make himself look cool(espn beyond hypes it & that fuels him to keep th selfish crap up, forcing 4 50 point games in a row as some kinda middle finger to MJ(but KB only had those games vs crappy teams almost always like a sissy, MJ had his vs playoff teams mostly like a killer & had 15 more in far less games, the ultimate scorer His Airness), making his number 24 (1 over 23) his olympic number 10 (1 over MJ's #9) he picked a war with MJ & lost, but everything about all that stuff is beyond annoying, & i'll always despise him...

having said all that, he is probably the 2nd best SG ever, credentials alone (great rosters, twilight zone Gasol trade, & Shaq spoon feeding 3 to Kobe with his bib in his high chair). if i wanted to be fair, i'd rank him 12-15th-ish. those lucky rosters & Shaquille turned a guy abouy as good as T-mac was into this way overblown overrated legend. he was outplayed by Shaq in all 4 finals they made together. outplayed by Reggie Miller, Jalen Rose, & Austin freaking Croshere. WTF kb? slap yourself. outplayed by Iverson, Billups, rip hamilton, Pierce, & Ray Allen. outplayed by 9 players in the finals, & outplayed in all his first 5 trips. saved a little face his last 2 finals winning & playing the best in both. but the credentials, stats, mvps awards, finals mvps, idiotic things he's done & the past mediocre finals should keep him from ever being compared to Jordan. laughable really, & insulting to His Airness.

he's right on Wade & Drexler's level as an actual basketball player, which is definitely great, but not top 10, not for me ohhhh no thanks, i'd get titles easier from 10-12 others. he can take his arrogant low IQ fadeaway 22 foot bricks vs double teams, & get on down the road away from my team. the GOAT MJ by far over Kobe. really i'd rather have Clyde or Wade on my team, because they make the right plays & don't try & force things against doubles because of ego (kobe ego, "ewwww no fcking double's gonna stop me") *Fade away 22 footer* bonk!) Clyde or Wade never played so dumb, & so selfish

Wow! LOL. This stuff us hilarious.

Jamiecballer
06-14-2014, 11:18 AM
I'm old enough to have seen his entire career as well. Look, it's never anything new from you. You've been a Kobe hater judging by your history of posts. That is why I say you have no credibility.
based on what? my history of saying he is a great player and nothing more? that is hate?

look, I love chocolate ice cream. I think its the greatest! don't you? what's that? you think its good but not near as good as peppermint chocolate chip?! HATER!!!

BCpatsox18
06-14-2014, 12:15 PM
1. Jordan
2. Wilt
3. Bird
4. Magic
5. Robertson
6. Kobe

beliges
06-14-2014, 12:32 PM
based on what? my history of saying he is a great player and nothing more? that is hate?

look, I love chocolate ice cream. I think its the greatest! don't you? what's that? you think its good but not near as good as peppermint chocolate chip?! HATER!!!

Ice cream flavors do not engage in competition with each other. If ice cream flavors had a competition amongst each other based on their respective skills and abilities and chocolate won more than peppermint chocolate chip, there would be no other explanation other than you're a hater if you try preaching peppermint was bettrr than chocolate.

Ice cream flavors are based on opinion. There is no tangible measure of greatness. In basketball players however, there are accomplishments one cannot argue against.

BCpatsox18
06-14-2014, 12:44 PM
if ice cream flavors did engage in competition, my bet would be on Coffee- I know I know it's a sleeper pick but look back on the great career coffee ice cream has so far. Chocolate and Vanilla are just way past their primes at this point

TmacBryant
06-14-2014, 01:15 PM
I think Kobe is anywhere between 4 and 10. Somewhere in there. It's all opinionated though. Besides MJ being #1 it's all pretty debatable.

However there is some things that you are just straight wrong about.

1. Kobe was never a shot down defender. Good defender, and agressive, but not shut down. Compared to all time great defender like Jordan/Pippen he's not no where near good enough to be considered a "shut down" calibur.

2. Saying "if a player from this era played 30 years ago would of dominated" is like the worst way to prove someones worth. Kobe would be great in any era, but that's like me saying if Shaq played in the 80's he'd score 50 a game. It isn't relevant.

3. I don't have Kobe as higher than 7 on my list of top 10 just because simply he was really only great at one thing. Offense. I mean he's fantastic at it, but he's just not a complete player IMO. Also I honestly don't think he wins as many chips if Phil Jackson doesn't come back, or Shaq isn't on his team... Not a jab, but he was a difficult guy to get a long with, and Phil Jack seemed to be the only one to tame that monster ego especially early in his career.

4. Does it matter? I mean besides Jordan everyone's top 10 is completely different. I still don't know to this day how Magic Johnson is so damn overrated, but hey! Everyone and their mom seems to have him to 5 and IMO he's not even close, and then you'll see people not have Wilt in their top 10.


Just on your comment on defense, Kobe was pretty dominate for a while I remember he would drop 40-50 and still defend the best opposing player, he could honestly defend any 1-3 position for a number of years (Yes even Lebron, look at the tapes). It has only been the last 3 years where he has been lagging.

12 All-Defensive Team (nine times to the All-Defensive First Team) isn't dominate?

BCpatsox18
06-14-2014, 01:38 PM
Derek Jeter also has 5 gold gloves- doesn't mean he was ever a great defender. Kobe was a very good defender, but not dominant; awards beyond MVP and DPOY are meaningless, even all the all-NBA teams don't mean anything

tredigs
06-14-2014, 01:42 PM
Just on your comment on defense, Kobe was pretty dominate for a while I remember he would drop 40-50 and still defend the best opposing player, he could honestly defend any 1-3 position for a number of years (Yes even Lebron, look at the tapes). It has only been the last 3 years where he has been lagging.

12 All-Defensive Team (nine times to the All-Defensive First Team) isn't dominate?
Please don't use All-D teams as some kind of gauge of actual defensive prowess, especially being that it's a regular season award and that's when he'd generally take that side off. Kobe had the capability to be a great defender for over a decade - and he took advantage of that ability in the playoffs most years - but those All-D teams were laughable more often than not. The guy was still getting 1st team All-D votes a couple years ago, that's how far the marketing of him went. Just, clueless/manipulable voters.

AIRMAR72
06-14-2014, 02:03 PM
[QUOTE=king4day;28623188]Top ten for sure. I still have him better than LeBron in his prime. Offensively he couldn't be stopped and defensively he was a pest. Different positions but I got to witness firsthand, as a Suns fan, what he could do on both sides of the ball. Nobody, since MJ, has a passion for the game like he did/does.

I hate him but his game is nearly unparalleled.[/QUO
YOU saying kobe is better than Bron that's not true Bron came in league like Tobe rite outta HS but Bron is bless with superior IQ his 1st game in league Bron displayed to be better overall player to Tobe I meant Kobe now till this day has a better post game(footwork) but Bron makes his teammates better plus Bron is better shooter and defender

Goose17
06-14-2014, 03:21 PM
Ice cream flavors are based on opinion. There is no tangible measure of greatness. In basketball players however, there are accomplishments one cannot argue against.

The best players is based mainly on opinion as well. You can't measure "greatness". What is the measurement? DeciGreatnessCubed? Kobe has a DCG-≥ of 16.9 while Lebron only has DCG-≥ of 5.

And people can't argue against accomplishments? So which accomplishment specifically makes you the greatest player ever? MVPs? Championships? All Star Appearances? Olympic Gold Medals?

flips333
06-14-2014, 03:23 PM
I do not believe 4 is high for a guy that dominated his era more so than anyone else. He has a ring for each finger on one of his hands. That more than you can say for anyone else you mentioned there on your list. Sorry, his accomplishments are just too great as compared to everyone else who has ever played.

Team accomplishments are team acomplishments. hell kobe was only MVP in 2 of those finals. He's gon one whopping MVP in his career. Whatever man you love you some Kobe, most other folks just think he's one of the best players ever, not second in command.

flips333
06-14-2014, 03:25 PM
Have we forgotten how good that guy was? Its my opinion that Kobe is 2nd to none other than MJ. Other people seem to leave him out of their top 5 and even their top 10 sometimes. How? Kobe is by far the most skilled player to EVER play. Offensively nobody matches his skill set. And he was a shutdown defender.

I mean how the hell can you seriously rank Larry Bird ahead of Kobe with a straight face? I have been watching a lot of old school playoff games from the 80's and 90's and I always get the impression that if Kobe was in that game, he would be taking over.

So for those of you that rank him so low, why? And don't give me **** about how Kobe needed Shaq and Gasol to win titles. Jordan needed Pippen and Rodman, Larry needed McHale, and Magic needed Kareem and Worthy and everyone else.

Also if your going to say that Kobe only has 2 finals mvps and it was all Shaq in the 3peat years. (Its funny how ppl discredit Kobe like that but conveniently forget about the Magic Kareem combo), don't forget how well Kobe played in the playoffs. Kobe and Shaq could have easily split regular playoff series mvps. Sure Shaq may have had the finals mvps, but everybody knew that the real championship was always the WCF back then. Lakers vs Spurs and Lakers vs Kings were the real finals in those days. Kobe was off the charts against the Spurs. I'm not denying Shaq was the main man of the 3peat, but lets not act like Kobe was just some sidekick.

Then factor in the repeat days with Gasol and Bynum. Don't forget they beat the Celtics big 3 in 2010. Those are the same guys that took Lebron's Heat to 7 games in 2012.

So please enlighten me as to why Kobe is not on Mt. Rushmore to most of you people.

yes you get that impression... the game was alot slower... But that had more to do with the rules than the players.

Jamiecballer
06-14-2014, 03:31 PM
Ice cream flavors do not engage in competition with each other. If ice cream flavors had a competition amongst each other based on their respective skills and abilities and chocolate won more than peppermint chocolate chip, there would be no other explanation other than you're a hater if you try preaching peppermint was bettrr than chocolate.

Ice cream flavors are based on opinion. There is no tangible measure of greatness. In basketball players however, there are accomplishments one cannot argue against.
that would be a completely valid point if basketball was a game of one on one. Its not which makes you sound silly for suggesting such a thing.

Hotone1401
06-14-2014, 03:46 PM
based on what? my history of saying he is a great player and nothing more? that is hate?

look, I love chocolate ice cream. I think its the greatest! don't you? what's that? you think its good but not near as good as peppermint chocolate chip?! HATER!!!

You only say he's a great player because you'd be insane not to concede that fact and you would look foolish. The truth is you've always been a hater and you've always underrated Kobe. Your history of posts DOES show this. Please don't try to portray yourself as having any objectivity. You're bias against Kobe and always have been.

All I'm saying is you have no credibility, and really, who cares what you think?

There's no reason to debate how much you hate and underrate Kobe. I'm done.

Jamiecballer
06-14-2014, 04:00 PM
You only say he's a great player because you'd be insane not to concede that fact and you would look foolish. The truth is you've always been a hater and you've always underrated Kobe. Your history of posts DOES show this. Please don't try to portray yourself as having any objectivity. You're bias against Kobe and always have been.

All I'm saying is you have no credibility, and really, who cares what you think?

There's no reason to debate how much you hate and underrate Kobe. I'm done.
great. because you've not provided any evidence to support your point.

beliges
06-14-2014, 04:08 PM
[QUOTE=king4day;28623188]Top ten for sure. I still have him better than LeBron in his prime. Offensively he couldn't be stopped and defensively he was a pest. Different positions but I got to witness firsthand, as a Suns fan, what he could do on both sides of the ball. Nobody, since MJ, has a passion for the game like he did/does.

I hate him but his game is nearly unparalleled.[/QUO
YOU saying kobe is better than Bron that's not true Bron came in league like Tobe rite outta HS but Bron is bless with superior IQ his 1st game in league Bron displayed to be better overall player to Tobe I meant Kobe now till this day has a better post game(footwork) but Bron makes his teammates better plus Bron is better shooter and defender

Kobe made 5 time Champs out of his teammates. I would say kobe has elevated the play of his teammates more than lebron has at this point in his career. Who.exactly did lebron make great?

L8kers4life
06-14-2014, 04:08 PM
[QUOTE=king4day;28623188]Top ten for sure. I still have him better than LeBron in his prime. Offensively he couldn't be stopped and defensively he was a pest. Different positions but I got to witness firsthand, as a Suns fan, what he could do on both sides of the ball. Nobody, since MJ, has a passion for the game like he did/does.

I hate him but his game is nearly unparalleled.[/QUO
YOU saying kobe is better than Bron that's not true Bron came in league like Tobe rite outta HS but Bron is bless with superior IQ his 1st game in league Bron displayed to be better overall player to Tobe I meant Kobe now till this day has a better post game(footwork) but Bron makes his teammates better plus Bron is better shooter and defender

I love when people make this argument, except for the fact LeBron has made Wade and Bosh role players, and he needs the ball 100% of the time to be effective. Kobe made Ariza and Pau both better players as well as several others, yet, Bosh and Wade have had to scale back there games to fit in with Lebron, and now both have become supreme role players, when they use to be franchise players. It's funny Lebron gets the big three together, now they are struggling and I keep hearing everywhere, Lebron needs more help, he cant do it alone. where is the evidence he makes his teammates better? I would like to see some evidence of that, Lebron is 2-2 in the finals and is about to be 2-3.

Goose17
06-14-2014, 04:12 PM
[QUOTE=AIRMAR72;28624961]

I love when people make this argument, except for the fact LeBron has made Wade and Bosh role players, and he needs the ball 100% of the time to be effective. Kobe made Ariza and Pau both better players as well as several others, yet, Bosh and Wade have had to scale back there games to fit in with Lebron, and now both have become supreme role players, when they use to be franchise players. It's funny Lebron gets the big three together, now they are struggling and I keep hearing everywhere, Lebron needs more help, he cant do it alone. where is the evidence he makes his teammates better? I would like to see some evidence of that, Lebron is 2-2 in the finals and is about to be 2-3.

Kobe is a ball hogger. Lebron gets everyone involved.

/Discussion

Bruno
06-14-2014, 04:19 PM
Kobe is a ball hogger. Lebron gets everyone involved.

/Discussion

Really? all the time every time? Last time I check LBJ i averaging 3.75 assists per game in the finals and his team looks completely out of sync.

Kobe Bryant is 7th in post-season history in assists. The only non point guards in front of him are Scottie Pippen and Larry Bird, who he trails by 3-4 games worth of assists. you don't get to that point if you're a career ball hog, but that narrative seems increasingly easy to push the more young fans come into their own and don't know any better.

TylerSL
06-14-2014, 04:20 PM
1.Jordan
2.Magic
3.Kareem
4.Duncan
5.Wilt
6.Hakeem
7.Shaq
8.Bird
9.Kobe
10.Oscar

thats my top 10. Realistically, I think Kobe can pass Bird but thats it. I also think Lebron will pass Kobe fairly soon so #9 all time is my rank for Kobe.

Goose17
06-14-2014, 04:32 PM
Really? all the time every time? Last time I check LBJ i averaging 3.75 assists per game in the finals and his team looks completely out of sync.

Kobe Bryant is 7th in post-season history in assists. The only non point guards in front of him are Scottie Pippen and Larry Bird, who he trails by 3-4 games worth of assists. you don't get to that point if you're a career ball hog, but that narrative seems increasingly easy to push the more young fans come into their own and don't know any better.

Yeah, he gives the ball to Shaq or Pau and gets out the way.

Kobe only passes to guys he trusts implicitly, he doesn't try to get all of the role players involved etc. He doesn't make the smart basketball play he plays the hero and tries to jack up a terrible shot... when he makes it, people remember. When he misses though...


Games played also helps.

jerellh528
06-14-2014, 04:36 PM
Yeah, he gives the ball to Shaq or Pau and gets out the way.

Kobe only passes to guys he trusts implicitly, he doesn't try to get all of the role players involved etc. He doesn't make the smart basketball play he plays the hero and tries to jack up a terrible shot... when he makes it, people remember. When he misses though...


Games played also helps.

I actually agree with 1 thing you said. How Kobe tries to get the ball mostly to guys he trusts. Shaq, pau, odom, fisher, George, etc. But he does do a great job at it. I think that stems from Phil Jackson to be honest, Phil was a guy who put great trust in his tested vets and stars, never played a rookie and wasn't great at developing talent.

L8kers4life
06-14-2014, 05:01 PM
[QUOTE=L8kers4life;28625337]

Kobe is a ball hogger. Lebron gets everyone involved.

/Discussion


If Lebron gets everyone involved, than why are Bosh and Wade now scrubs who's numbers decline every series. Ball hog can also mean you need the ball in your hands at all times to be effective, does that sound like anyone? Lebron without the ball is not effective, therefore everyone must defer to him. If Lebron gets everyone involved and Kobe is a ball hog, Why have players like Ariza, Pau, Shannon Brown, Luc Walton, Jordan Hill, Andrew Bynum, Lamar Odom all become better players playing with Kobe, but have sucked without Kobe. Pau was winless in the playoffs before Kobe, Ariza was a scrub, shannon Brown never played, and Bynum and Odom have done absolutely nothing since leaving the Lakers. Yet Lebron, has made Bosh, Wade, Mike Miller, Chalmers, and numerous other players complete role players, who's stats and effectiveness have declined since playing with Lebron?>

beliges
06-14-2014, 05:01 PM
Yeah, he gives the ball to Shaq or Pau and gets out the way.

Kobe only passes to guys he trusts implicitly, he doesn't try to get all of the role players involved etc. He doesn't make the smart basketball play he plays the hero and tries to jack up a terrible shot... when he makes it, people remember. When he misses though...


Games played also helps.

LOL. No reason to change your style of play when it proved to be the most dominant of his era in terms of winning.

L8kers4life
06-14-2014, 05:09 PM
Yeah, he gives the ball to Shaq or Pau and gets out the way.

Kobe only passes to guys he trusts implicitly, he doesn't try to get all of the role players involved etc. He doesn't make the smart basketball play he plays the hero and tries to jack up a terrible shot... when he makes it, people remember. When he misses though...


Games played also helps.

Shaq and Pau, as well as Fisher, Fox, Horry, Ariza, Shannon Brown, Lamar Odom, Bynum, Artest, Jordan Hill, Brian Shaw, Jordan Farmar, Luc Walton. Other than that, he doesnt pass to anyone, but good point though! Funny thing about this right here, have any 1 single of these players been better without Kobe, than they have been with him? Go ahead Goose, wrap your head around that, I will wait for your answer. If you can tell me any one of those players were better without Kobe, than you win this argument. Good luck....

BigCityofDreams
06-14-2014, 07:03 PM
[QUOTE=Goose17;28625353]


If Lebron gets everyone involved, than why are Bosh and Wade now scrubs who's numbers decline every series. Ball hog can also mean you need the ball in your hands at all times to be effective, does that sound like anyone? Lebron without the ball is not effective, therefore everyone must defer to him. If Lebron gets everyone involved and Kobe is a ball hog, Why have players like Ariza, Pau, Shannon Brown, Luc Walton, Jordan Hill, Andrew Bynum, Lamar Odom all become better players playing with Kobe, but have sucked without Kobe. Pau was winless in the playoffs before Kobe, Ariza was a scrub, shannon Brown never played, and Bynum and Odom have done absolutely nothing since leaving the Lakers. Yet Lebron, has made Bosh, Wade, Mike Miller, Chalmers, and numerous other players complete role players, who's stats and effectiveness have declined since playing with Lebron?>

Didn't someone on here make a few threads about that a few yrs ago? If not threads then posted stats in various topics to back up his claim? It might have been after the loss to the Mavs or before the finals against the Thunder. Basically the gist of it was he impacts every facet of the game (rebound, assists, scoring, etc) to the point where there can be negative results to it. Not sure how true it was but it was interesting to read.

alexander_37
06-14-2014, 07:15 PM
Kobe #2? No he isn't. Kobe is in the 10-14 range, he has never been the best player in the league.

Hotone1401
06-14-2014, 07:20 PM
Kobe #2? No he isn't. Kobe is in the 10-14 range, he has never been the best player in the league.

Get a clue.

amos1er
06-14-2014, 07:21 PM
Simple answer to this question...

People are haters and jealous plain and simple. Kobe has been the greatest players since Jordan on the greatest franchise of All-Time. Of course fans of other teams are gonna attack this guy like a pack of vicious dogs. It's only natural. It's quite comical actually.

alexander_37
06-14-2014, 07:21 PM
Get a clue.

Please enlighten me...

amos1er
06-14-2014, 07:22 PM
Kobe #2? No he isn't. Kobe is in the 10-14 range, he has never been the best player in the league.

:laugh:

amos1er
06-14-2014, 07:22 PM
Please enlighten me...

You're beyond reproach.

jerellh528
06-14-2014, 07:24 PM
You're beyond reproach.

Some guys just hate Kobe. I hate lbj some hate Kobe, there's no getting a point across to either lol.

alexander_37
06-14-2014, 07:27 PM
1.Jordan
2.Magic
3.Kareem
4.Duncan
5.Wilt
6.Hakeem
7.Shaq
8.Bird
9.Kobe
10.Oscar

thats my top 10. Realistically, I think Kobe can pass Bird but thats it. I also think Lebron will pass Kobe fairly soon so #9 all time is my rank for Kobe.

Bill Russell ...
Duncan?

Also the big O is ahead of Kobe.

alexander_37
06-14-2014, 07:28 PM
You're beyond reproach.

Or you just have no evidence backing what you say whatsoever.

jerellh528
06-14-2014, 07:31 PM
Or you just have no evidence backing what you say whatsoever.

Actually you don't. You're in the minority that claims Kobe never held the title of best player in the nba. So you're the one that needs to provide evidence.

alexander_37
06-14-2014, 07:34 PM
Actually you don't. You're in the minority that claims Kobe never held the title of best player in the nba. So you're the one that needs to provide evidence.

Which season was he?

Miltstar
06-14-2014, 07:35 PM
Bill Russell ...
Duncan?

Also the big O is ahead of Kobe.

When you're talking about players of this calibre there really is no right or wrong way to rank them. It all comes down to perspective and values of the list maker

alexander_37
06-14-2014, 07:37 PM
When you're talking about players of this calibre there really is no right or wrong way to rank them. It all comes down to perspective and values of the list maker

Well Oscar had higher career

PPG
Assists per game
Rebounds per game
TS%
FG%

So if you value basketball skills he is better.

amos1er
06-14-2014, 07:37 PM
Or you just have no evidence backing what you say whatsoever.

Lol. Are you for real. You speak of evidence in an opinion based argument. Lol. You are a special one aren't you. Do you even realize that your original statement was 100% opinion. Wow. Simply wow!!!

What you should know is that the vast majority of experts are in disagreement with your opinion sir. Good day.

Oh and BTW... Please learn how to properly objectify the use of "evidence" into a debate. Just a nickels worth of free advice.

alexander_37
06-14-2014, 07:39 PM
Lol. Are you for real. You speak of evidence in an opinion based argument. Lol. You are a special one aren't you. Do you even realize that your original statement was 100% opinion. Wow. Simply wow!!!

What you should know is that the vast majority of experts are in disagreement with your opinion sir. Good day.

Oh and BTW... Please learn how to properly objectify the use of "evidence" into a debate. Just a nickels worth of free advice.

:laugh:

amos1er
06-14-2014, 07:40 PM
Which season was he?

No one even answer this guy. He is obviously not being objective about things and has an agenda against Kobe. All he is going to do is copy and paste some Hollinger stats from basketball reference that are completely out of context as his rebuttals. I've seen this all to often before. Typical Lebronite strategy. A rank amateur really.

amos1er
06-14-2014, 07:42 PM
:laugh:

Nice rebuttal Mr. Evidence.

alexander_37
06-14-2014, 07:42 PM
No one even answer this guy. He is obviously not being objective about things and has an agenda against Kobe. All he is going to do is copy and paste some Hollinger stats from basketball reference that are completely out of context as his rebuttals. I've seen this all to often before. Typical Lebronite strategy. A rank amateur really.

Lebronite? Lmfao not everyone is in your stupid kobe lebron fanboy war some people are actually objective and realistic unlike you. Keep circle jerking buddy.

amos1er
06-14-2014, 07:43 PM
When you're talking about players of this calibre there really is no right or wrong way to rank them. It all comes down to perspective and values of the list maker

Bingo...

Something these Lebronite Hollinger Guru's will never understand.

amos1er
06-14-2014, 07:44 PM
Lebronite? Lmfao not everyone is in your stupid kobe lebron fanboy war some people are actually objective and realistic unlike you. Keep circle jerking buddy.

:laugh:

This coming from a guy who won't even rank Kobe in the top ten of All-Time. Even Kobe's biggest haters rank him at the bottom end of the top ten. What does that make you then.

alexander_37
06-14-2014, 07:45 PM
:laugh:

This coming from a guy who won't even rank Kobe in the top ten of All-Time. Even Kobe's biggest haters rank him at the bottom end of the top ten. What does that make you then.

Again realistic who do you rank him over? It's not that Kobe isn't good there are just player that were better than him.

Reyes6
06-14-2014, 07:51 PM
The problem isn't Kobe's placement, it's the fact that I can't place him above these people:

1. MJ
2. Magic
3. Kareem
4. Russell

Then we have Big O, Bird, Wilt, Hakeem.... I don't know if I can put him above any of them either.

Then we have a category of Duncan (Who I would probably have top 7), Shaq, and Kobe.

I would probably have Kobe right around his original jersey number of 8... but it also depends on what Kobe does with the rest of his career. I could see him as high as top 5 if he gets another ring.

alexander_37
06-14-2014, 07:55 PM
The problem isn't Kobe's placement, it's the fact that I can't place him above these people:

1. MJ
2. Magic
3. Kareem
4. Russell

Then we have Big O, Bird, Wilt, Hakeem.... I don't know if I can put him above any of them either.

Then we have a category of Duncan (Who I would probably have top 7), Shaq, and Kobe.

I would probably have Kobe right around his original jersey number of 8... but it also depends on what Kobe does with the rest of his career. I could see him as high as top 5 if he gets another ring.

How could you put him over shaq?

Sactown
06-14-2014, 07:57 PM
Where Kobe ranks depends on where you place value, Peak or longevity, Kobe isn't a top 10 player in terms of peak and the numbers are pretty clear there

Kobe has something almost no one else has , maintaining his prime for so many years , that's his value

Hotone1401
06-14-2014, 09:00 PM
How could you put him over shaq?

Longevity? Championships?

The argument isn't about who you would pick in their prime because obviously Shaq pretty much trumps everyone. We're talking all-time here. I have no problem with anybody picking either.

alexander_37
06-14-2014, 09:02 PM
Longevity? Championships?

The argument isn't about who you would pick in their prime because obviously Shaq pretty much trumps everyone. We're talking all-time here. I have no problem with anybody picking either.

Shaq also scored more efficiently, grabbed a ton of rebounds, and was one of the better help defenders ever.

nickdymez
06-14-2014, 09:10 PM
Only PSD does this. Knowledgeable basketball fans are usually reasonable. I have Kobe number 2 SG of all time and top 7.

nickdymez
06-14-2014, 09:12 PM
Shaq also scored more efficiently, grabbed a ton of rebounds, and was one of the better help defenders ever.

Shaq was a center, so of course he grabbed more boards. Shaq was a center, so of course he scored more efficiently. Shaq was a center, so of course he was a better help defender.

Hotone1401
06-14-2014, 09:15 PM
Shaq also scored more efficiently, grabbed a ton of rebounds, and was one of the better help defenders ever.

Big men are naturally more efficient than perimeter players and naturally grab more boards. Was he one of the greatest help defenders ever? Lol.

I seriously don't have the energy to debate this with someone as ignorant as you.

jerellh528
06-14-2014, 09:31 PM
Only PSD does this. Knowledgeable basketball fans are usually reasonable. I have Kobe number 2 SG of all time and top 7.

I've noticed this too. Psd is far more anti Kobe than any other forum I've frequented.

nickdymez
06-14-2014, 09:55 PM
I've noticed this too. Psd is far more anti Kobe than any other forum I've frequented.
Forum and real life. PSD is ridiculous

NBA_Starter
06-14-2014, 10:59 PM
It is because he had to have help to win.

Munkeysuit
06-14-2014, 11:42 PM
When you had Shaq hand deliver you 3 rings and then you spend the next 6 years winning no titles and then suddenly Pau Gasol falls in your lap and then you suddenly win 2 more? yea I'd say you deserve to be underrated.

amos1er
06-15-2014, 12:14 AM
The problem isn't Kobe's placement, it's the fact that I can't place him above these people:

1. MJ
2. Magic
3. Kareem
4. Russell

Then we have Big O, Bird, Wilt, Hakeem.... I don't know if I can put him above any of them either.

Then we have a category of Duncan (Who I would probably have top 7), Shaq, and Kobe.

I would probably have Kobe right around his original jersey number of 8... but it also depends on what Kobe does with the rest of his career. I could see him as high as top 5 if he gets another ring.

I feel you are placing way too much value on Russell's rings. In my top ten list, he is number 10. Russell was fortunate to be on those Celtic teams that were stacked in comparison to the rest of the league. Can't really give a guy priority over others who was simply more fortunate. His overall greatness was more ado with good fortune than his dominating skill set. Thats why I can't place him above bigs who were far more skilled and meant so much more to their teams success like Duncan, Hakeem, Shaq. If you gave me a time machine, pretty much any of those three guys if healthy could win more rings than Russell or equal to him with that cast and that situation. Still, have to give the guy his due for getting 11 rings in 13 seasons. His consistency and defensive impact and overall leadership were most to credit for that and for those intangibles alone I give him a top ten ranking. Mainly, I just can't put a guy in the top five of all time who was never the best player in the NBA any of the years he played.

Also, think you are ranking Big O too high as well. Ring count is not high enough. Simple as that. Can't rank a guy top ten simply because he was a triple double machine over guys with more complete resumes. Zero Finals MVP's.

amos1er
06-15-2014, 12:17 AM
When you had Shaq hand deliver you 3 rings and then you spend the next 6 years winning no titles and then suddenly Pau Gasol falls in your lap and then you suddenly win 2 more? yea I'd say you deserve to be underrated.

It actually took Kobe 4 years to produce a title after Shaq left. Something has to be said for someone who won titles on two completely different squads. Not only titles, dynasties. Pau had never even won a playoff game until he played with Kobe. Kobe made that dude who he was unlike Lebron who took a player like Bosh and made him worse.

beliges
06-15-2014, 12:21 AM
When you had Shaq hand deliver you 3 rings and then you spend the next 6 years winning no titles and then suddenly Pau Gasol falls in your lap and then you suddenly win 2 more? yea I'd say you deserve to be underrated.

LOL how many titles did LBJ get without teaming up with Wade and Bosh? At least kobe stuck it out and didn't go join lebRon in cleavland.

amos1er
06-15-2014, 12:21 AM
Big men are naturally more efficient than perimeter players and naturally grab more boards. Was he one of the greatest help defenders ever? Lol.

I seriously don't have the energy to debate this with someone as ignorant as you.

Ya, he is pretty ridiculous.

bluefire7002
06-15-2014, 12:36 AM
When you had Shaq hand deliver you 3 rings and then you spend the next 6 years winning no titles and then suddenly Pau Gasol falls in your lap and then you suddenly win 2 more? yea I'd say you deserve to be underrated.

Guess you never saw those series road games against Indiana and Kings were Kobe literally won the game for them.

Hawkeye15
06-15-2014, 03:03 AM
Only PSD does this. Knowledgeable basketball fans are usually reasonable. I have Kobe number 2 SG of all time and top 7.

Kobe is the #2 SG all time, and ranks anywhere from 8-10 for me depending on my mood that day. And I am considered a huge Kobe hater on this site for whatever reason.

Hawkeye15
06-15-2014, 03:04 AM
When you had Shaq hand deliver you 3 rings and then you spend the next 6 years winning no titles and then suddenly Pau Gasol falls in your lap and then you suddenly win 2 more? yea I'd say you deserve to be underrated.

I mean, Shaq was the #1 option no doubt those first 3 chips, but lets not act like we can just replace Kobe with another good starting SG and they still win.

slashsnake
06-15-2014, 04:34 AM
Guess you never saw those series road games against Indiana and Kings were Kobe literally won the game for them.

Road vs. Indiana in the finals. Kobe shot 38% in his two games, averaged 18 points, 4.5 boards, 4 assists, got to the line 0 times per game, and his 4-20 road performance while getting just destroyed by Miller and Rose is a huge reason why the Lakers didn't sweep Indiana.

Kobe's good game (the one he found a way to score more than 8 points in), he scored 28 points with 4 boards and 5 assists, carrying the team... except the fact that he let Reggie go off on him in the 4th and the only reason they even got to OT was Shaq was just as dominant down the stretch in the 4th (35 points and 21 boards that game). Kobe made the clutch shots at the end of the game when Shaq fouled out, but his play up till then wasn't very good on either side of the ball.

He hit the shots that won the game. Horry did that quite a few times too, doesn't mean he carried the team though.

Yeah he did get the best of Doug Christie a lot against Sacramento, but they were begging anyone but Shaq to beat them in those series. And he had some rough times against them on the road that they lost as well.


I don't think he's really over or under rated by most. Top 5 all time? probably not. 5-15 range, sure. If you give more weight to bigs due to their impact on the game, then he falls lower in that range. If you look at pure talent, he probably moves up some.

BigCityofDreams
06-15-2014, 12:49 PM
I mean, Shaq was the #1 option no doubt those first 3 chips, but lets not act like we can just replace Kobe with another good starting SG and they still win.

I tell ppl that all the time. These are human being not batteries or light bulbs. We can't just plug someone in and expect the same result. Even though those guys had facets of their game that were better than Kobe at the time it's still hard to get the same result. Do they handle the pressure of big games? Do they hold up going through deep playoffs runs? Do they work as hard as he did after the first ring?

beyourself
06-15-2014, 01:10 PM
Every other debatable top 10 player ever is a completely unique player form a historical NBA standpoint. Wilt, Russell, Magic, Bird, KAJ, Jordan, Hakeem, Duncan, Shaq, LeBron etc.

All of these guys either had a unique size or skillset that set them apart from everybody else who ever played. They did things we haven't seen before.

Kobe was an imitator. He was diet MJ. Jordan Light. Not the real thing. I think that's where some of his backlash comes from.

Goose17
06-15-2014, 01:39 PM
:laugh:

This coming from a guy who won't even rank Kobe in the top ten of All-Time. Even Kobe's biggest haters rank him at the bottom end of the top ten. What does that make you then.

I disagree with this, I'm not a Kobe hater and I think ranking him somewhere between 9th and 15th is about right. Being a top 15 player of ALL TIME is a pretty big compliment, it's a huge achievement. Do you realise how many players have been in the NBA? To be in the top 15 is unreal. There's been about 3500 players in the last five decades, being in the top 15 of that mean's you're in the top 0.42% ...that's insane.

Only a homer would think that's an insult or underrating him.

Bruno
06-15-2014, 01:56 PM
Yeah, he gives the ball to Shaq or Pau and gets out the way.

Kobe only passes to guys he trusts implicitly, he doesn't try to get all of the role players involved etc. He doesn't make the smart basketball play he plays the hero and tries to jack up a terrible shot... when he makes it, people remember. When he misses though...


Games played also helps.
when he 'gets out of the way' he usually pulls half the defense with him as well, which gave Pau Gasol the space he needed to finally reach his potential. Paus numbers sky-rocketed once he started playing with Kobe.

Derek Fisher, Robert Horry, Rick Fox, Trevor Ariza, Ron Artest and every scrub who he played with and got paid from 2005-2007 would tell you otherwise. Did Sasha and Luke Walton land MLE deals because Kobe never got them involved? you're generalizing because it pleases your point. Kobe has averaged 5+ assists per game since 1999, he's an underrated facilitator, and the tales of his 'chucking' and 'heroing' have been greatly exaggerated by fans who just aren't that into the guy.

beliges
06-15-2014, 02:23 PM
Not sure the point of this thread. Don't think kobe is underrated at all. The vast majority of NBA people place kobe somewhere between 4-9 of all time. Seems about right given his almost unmatched resume.

Goose17
06-15-2014, 02:26 PM
when he 'gets out of the way' he usually pulls half the defense with him as well, which gave Pau Gasol the space he needed to finally reach his potential. Paus numbers sky-rocketed once he started playing with Kobe.

Derek Fisher, Robert Horry, Rick Fox, Trevor Ariza, Ron Artest and every scrub who he played with and got paid from 2005-2007 would tell you otherwise. Did Sasha and Luke Walton land MLE deals because Kobe never got them involved? you're generalizing because it pleases your point. Kobe has averaged 5+ assists per game since 1999, he's an underrated facilitator, and the tales of his 'chucking' and 'heroing' have been greatly exaggerated by fans who just aren't that into the guy.

Did you seriously just call Ariza and Artest scrubs? Ariza is one of the most underrated players at his position right now, he's been great in D.C

Artest was an elite defender in his day.


There are THOUSANDS of examples of him forcing up a bad shot instead of passing to a team mate, he makes bad decisions, he passes when he knows he can get an assist and only to the guys he absolutely trusts (i.e Gasol). Anyone who has ever watched him play and isn't biased can see this to be true.

Your argument is invalid immediately due to your sig, you are 110% biased and clearly a homer. Your opinion on this matter means nothing to me.

beliges
06-15-2014, 02:31 PM
Did you seriously just call Ariza and Artest scrubs? Ariza is one of the most underrated players at his position right now, he's been great in D.C

Artest was an elite defender in his day.


There are THOUSANDS of examples of him forcing up a bad shot instead of passing to a team mate, he makes bad decisions, he passes when he knows he can get an assist and only to the guys he absolutely trusts (i.e Gasol). Anyone who has ever watched him play and isn't biased can see this to be true.

Your argument is invalid immediately due to your sig, you are 110% biased and clearly a homer. Your opinion on this matter means nothing to me.

Dude who cares who he passed to and whether he passed or not. There is not another player in his era to win as much. Clearly whatever kobe was doing worked better than whatever any other player in the league was doing. This league is not about passing to teammates. It's about winning. And when you have one of the greatest players to ever play the game taking it on himself to win and then delivering time and time again, nothing else matters.

alexander_37
06-15-2014, 02:34 PM
Dude who cares who he passed to and whether he passed or not. There is not another player in his era to win as much. Clearly whatever kobe was doing worked better than whatever any other player in the league was doing. This league is not about passing to teammates. It's about winning. And when you have one of the greatest players to ever play the game taking it on himself to win and then delivering time and time again, nothing else matters.

So Bill Russell is clearly the GOAT? Fisher is better than Iverson? Exactly no it is not just about winning.

Goose17
06-15-2014, 02:40 PM
Dude who cares who he passed to and whether he passed or not. There is not another player in his era to win as much. Clearly whatever kobe was doing worked better than whatever any other player in the league was doing. This league is not about passing to teammates. It's about winning. And when you have one of the greatest players to ever play the game taking it on himself to win and then delivering time and time again, nothing else matters.

He's won more games than anyone else in this era? What? Did you seriously just say that?

Jamiecballer
06-15-2014, 03:13 PM
Kobe is the #2 SG all time, and ranks anywhere from 8-10 for me depending on my mood that day. And I am considered a huge Kobe hater on this site for whatever reason.
I think thats too high.

If he was that good the Lakers with Shaq would have/should have absolutely destroyed this league. A guard and a big, both all time greats playing together should have been unstoppable.

He's an all-time great but he is at best Jordan @ 80% wouldn't you agree?

I can't in good conscience consider that top ten worthy.

beliges
06-15-2014, 03:17 PM
He's won more games than anyone else in this era? What? Did you seriously just say that?

I can't think of another franchise player that won more can you? Last time I checked kobe Had the most finals appearances and championships than anyone else in his era. Duncan's about to reach that #5 level with magic and kobe though.

dnl123
06-15-2014, 03:17 PM
Kobe is not top 5 in my opinion, but he's a great player and probably in the top 10 of all time players in NBA history which is a huge deal. I don't think he or any of his fans should feel slighted by that at all.

The reasons I put him lower than some are that he's not an efficient offensive player as others higher on the list and he has been in my opinion overrated as a defender. Kobe is a fun guy to watch though and I'll miss him when he retires.

beliges
06-15-2014, 03:19 PM
So Bill Russell is clearly the GOAT? Fisher is better than Iverson? Exactly no it is not just about winning.

Russell was clearly the GOAT of the pre-modern era nba with all his titles. Certainly was between him and wilt. And fisher is a role player. No need to point out the gaping holes and idiocy in that argument.

Hawkeye15
06-15-2014, 03:19 PM
I think thats too high.

If he was that good the Lakers with Shaq would have/should have absolutely destroyed this league. A guard and a big, both all time greats playing together should have been unstoppable.

He's an all-time great but he is at best Jordan @ 80% wouldn't you agree?

I can't in good conscience consider that top ten worthy.

I think the consensus is top 8-12 or so, but I have him rounding out my top 10, mostly due to longevity versus actual peak.

But rankings are subjective. And yes, I think there is a pretty large gap between him and Jordan, as a player.

Hawkeye15
06-15-2014, 03:21 PM
Russell was clearly the GOAT of the pre-modern era nba with all his titles. Certainly was between him and wilt. And fisher is a role player. No need to point out the gaping holes and idiocy in that argument.

I think there is a fairly big disparity, talent wise, between Wilt and Russell. Russell's team achievements get him overrated pretty badly. He struggles to even make my top 10, in fact, I think he is out of it now.

Jamiecballer
06-15-2014, 03:24 PM
I can't think of another franchise player that won more can you? Last time I checked kobe Had the most finals appearances and championships than anyone else in his era. Duncan's about to reach that #5 level with magic and kobe though.
I don't understand why you can't comprehend the difference between a team sport like basketball and, say, golf.

Being on the winningest team over an era by itself is basically an interesting factoid.

beliges
06-15-2014, 03:25 PM
I think there is a fairly big disparity, talent wise, between Wilt and Russell. Russell's team achievements get him overrated pretty badly. He struggles to even make my top 10, in fact, I think he is out of it now.

It's hard to equate value to anything in the pre-modern nba era. Russells rings don't mean nearly as much to me given the makeup of the league back then. I don't think Russell would be great in today's nba but the way he dominated his era will always surely put him in that top 10 conversation.

Hawkeye15
06-15-2014, 03:31 PM
It's hard to equate value to anything in the pre-modern nba era. Russells rings don't mean nearly as much to me given the makeup of the league back then. I don't think Russell would be great in today's nba but the way he dominated his era will always surely put him in that top 10 conversation.

meh, he has slipped out of mine. Wilt was far more dominant as an individual player, I have him top 3 all time.

But yes, Russell is, and always will be in the CONVERSATION for top 10, or even higher. Anyone who places higher value on winning (and many do, I don't agree with the added value for winning in a team sport when ranking), is going to have him a lot higher than I do.

tredigs
06-15-2014, 03:41 PM
I think thats too high.

If he was that good the Lakers with Shaq would have/should have absolutely destroyed this league. A guard and a big, both all time greats playing together should have been unstoppable.

He's an all-time great but he is at best Jordan @ 80% wouldn't you agree?

I can't in good conscience consider that top ten worthy.

Once Kobe turned 21 - in a very tough conference - they went to the Finals 4 of 5 years while 3 peating. That's about as dominant as it gets in the NBA. And that '01 playoff run where they only lost 1 game was pure destruction. A top 5 team of all time - and the ones that rival them are stacked all the same (if not more so considering the Lakers were primarily a 2 man show).

Goose17
06-15-2014, 03:49 PM
I can't think of another franchise player that won more can you? Last time I checked kobe Had the most finals appearances and championships than anyone else in his era. Duncan's about to reach that #5 level with magic and kobe though.

My point was you said HE won more games... HE didn't. THEY did. The Lakers did that, not Kobe. Last I checked he never played 5 v 1.

Would he have won as much without Odom, Shaq, Gasol, Bynum, Phil Jackson etc?

I don't believe in attributing team accolades to an individual or using team accolades to evaluate the talent of an individual. Nor do I believe individuals can win team games.


You can be the key part or the alpha dog or whatever, but you can't do it alone, no one ever has, no one ever will. It's a team sport for a reason. You can argue the Lakers wouldn't have those chips without Kobe just as easily as you could argue Kobe wouldn't have those chips without the Lakers.


I don't know how people who have actually participated in this sport in any way whatsoever can be so oblivious to the fact.

jerellh528
06-15-2014, 03:51 PM
My point was you said HE won more games... HE didn't. THEY did. The Lakers did that, not Kobe. Last I checked he never played 5 v 1.

Would he have won as much without Odom, Shaq, Gasol, Bynum, Phil Jackson etc?

I don't believe in attributing team accolades to an individual or using team accolades to evaluate the talent of an individual. Nor do I believe individuals can win team games.


You can be the key part or the alpha dog or whatever, but you can't do it alone, no one ever has, no one ever will. It's a team sport for a reason. You can argue the Lakers wouldn't have those chips without Kobe just as easily as you could argue Kobe wouldn't have those chips without the Lakers.


I don't know how people who have actually participated in this sport in any way whatsoever can be so oblivious to the fact.

Actually I do remember a few 5 v 1 games that he dominated lol

Goose17
06-15-2014, 04:06 PM
Once Kobe turned 21 - in a very tough conference - they went to the Finals 4 of 5 years while 3 peating. That's about as dominant as it gets in the NBA. And that '01 playoff run where they only lost 1 game was pure destruction. A top 5 team of all time - and the ones that rival them are stacked all the same (if not more so considering the Lakers were primarily a 2 man show).

But Kobe didn't do that. The Lakers did. You can't attribute all of their success to Kobe.

I mean in the time period you're speaking of, he had some AWFUL playoff performances;

In game 6 against San Antonio ('03) he went 9 for 19 with 7 turnovers,

Against the Pistons in '04 he went 4 for 13 in game 3 with 4 turnovers,

Against the Pistons he went 8 for 25 in game 4 with 3 turnovers,

Against the Pistons he went 7 for 21 in game 5 with 4 turnovers,

In game 7 vs Phoenix in '06 Kobe netted one point in the entire second half.

He was injured in that finals game (game 2?) against Indiana, played about ten minutes and Shaq led them to the win.

In game 5 of the finals against Indiana he finished with 9 points... and 20 field goal attempts. If Lakers had won this game they would have beaten Indiana 4-1.

In game 6 against Indiana, Kobe went 8 for 27 (29%) but the Lakers won and took the championship home. Shaq scored 41 points on 60% with 12 rebounds. Glen Rice netted 16 points on 70% from the field... Kobe did make the clutch free throws though ;)

The closer against Boston, Kobe goes 7 for 22 with one assist. Boston wins the championship.



I don't know what it is about Kobe but people remember all of his makes and glorify them to the point of no return, but they forget all of the misses.

He was a key part in that Lakers run without a doubt, to argue otherwise would be foolish. But he didn't win those championships by himself.

tredigs
06-15-2014, 04:31 PM
But Kobe didn't do that. The Lakers did. You can't attribute all of their success to Kobe.

I mean in the time period you're speaking of, he had some AWFUL playoff performances;

In game 6 against San Antonio ('03) he went 9 for 19 with 7 turnovers,

Against the Pistons in '04 he went 4 for 13 in game 3 with 4 turnovers,

Against the Pistons he went 8 for 25 in game 4 with 3 turnovers,

Against the Pistons he went 7 for 21 in game 5 with 4 turnovers,

In game 7 vs Phoenix in '06 Kobe netted one point in the entire second half.

He was injured in that finals game (game 2?) against Indiana, played about ten minutes and Shaq led them to the win.

In game 5 of the finals against Indiana he finished with 9 points... and 20 field goal attempts. If Lakers had won this game they would have beaten Indiana 4-1.

In game 6 against Indiana, Kobe went 8 for 27 (29%) but the Lakers won and took the championship home. Shaq scored 41 points on 60% with 12 rebounds. Glen Rice netted 16 points on 70% from the field... Kobe did make the clutch free throws though ;)

The closer against Boston, Kobe goes 7 for 22 with one assist. Boston wins the championship.



I don't know what it is about Kobe but people remember all of his makes and glorify them to the point of no return, but they forget all of the misses.

He was a key part in that Lakers run without a doubt, to argue otherwise would be foolish. But he didn't win those championships by himself.

I was responding to a post concerning how dominant the Lakers were - and was talking about the Lakers. "They" in my post being the Lakers, not Kobe. Calm down.

I'm fully aware that Kobe has had poor playoff games, and I am fully aware that he was an integral cog in those Finals appearances/wins as well. This was the point in his career where he had elite D on the oppositions best player as well.

And as much as people get on Kobe for being a Robin to Shaq's Batman in those first 3 ships (not entirely true, they were much more of complimentary pieces than a leader/sidekick for the bulk of their runs), he did spend arguably his peak 3 seasons with as little help as any superstar in their prime has had; and as soon as more help came they immediately got back to the Finals and began winning titles again with Kobe as their leader. He's a winner and brings that mentality to every game he plays (many, MANY great players over the years don't have that), there is no two ways around it.

jerellh528
06-15-2014, 04:33 PM
I was responding to a post concerning how dominant the Lakers were - and was talking about the Lakers. "They" in my post being the Lakers, not Kobe. Calm down.

I'm fully aware that Kobe has had poor playoff games, and I am fully aware that he was an integral cog in those Finals appearances/wins as well. This was the point in his career where he had elite D on the oppositions best player as well.

And as much as people get on Kobe for being a Robin to Shaq's Batman in those first 3 ships (not entirely true, they were much more of complimentary pieces than a leader/sidekick for the bulk of their runs), he did spend arguably his peak 3 seasons with as little help as any superstar in their prime has had; and as soon as more help came they immediately got back to the Finals and began winning titles again with Kobe as their leader. He's a winner and brings that mentality to every game he plays (many, MANY great players over the years don't have that), there is no two ways around it.

Great post and insight.

Goose17
06-15-2014, 04:36 PM
I was responding to a post concerning how dominant the Lakers were - and was talking about the Lakers. "They" in my post being the Lakers, not Kobe. Calm down.


I'm perfectly calm, just rebutting your points.



He's a winner and brings that mentality to every game he plays (many, MANY great players over the years don't have that), there is no two ways around it.

He's VERY confident. That's for sure.

That doesn't make you a top 10 player though.

tredigs
06-15-2014, 04:47 PM
I'm perfectly calm, just rebutting your points.



He's VERY confident. That's for sure.

That doesn't make you a top 10 player though.

No, but putting up 28/5/5 + as a 2 way player for over a decade while being an integral cog in a horde of title runs playing in a stacked conference (that included another All-Time top 10 player in his prime playing for a great team/coach/organization) certainly puts you in the conversation.

You didn't rebuttal anything, you misinterpreted my mentioning of the Lakers title runs as me saying "Kobe did it himself". You seem to have an agenda here and were simply wrong to group me in with that crowd.

^Thanks Jerell. But enough honest Kobe talk from me ; ]

Goose17
06-15-2014, 05:30 PM
In the talks for top 10? Sure but so are the guys ranked just outside it (11th-15th). Being IN the top 10 and being "in the talks of being top 10" aren't the same thing.

It's so subjective it almost doesn't even warrant discussion. We're sports fans though so we'll keep it up.


And I misinterpreted your post because you didn't make it very clear. You said he dominated the league, he didn't. The Lakers did. Can we agree on that much?

I have no agenda. I'm just discussing the topic at hand.

tredigs
06-15-2014, 05:38 PM
I was clearly talking about the "Lakers going to 4 Finals in 5 seasons" and that being "about as dominant as it gets in the NBA". I don't see how you're misinterpreting that... I was responding to a post that was essentially questioning the Lakers dominance of those Shaq/Kobe years.

Lakers + Giants
06-15-2014, 06:53 PM
I mean, Shaq was the #1 option no doubt those first 3 chips, but lets not act like we can just replace Kobe with another good starting SG and they still win.

I've seen ppl here say that Tmac, Vince, AI, and Ray Ray could've replaced kobe and still won 3 chips with shaq, that simpy isn't true, That is where I see kobe being underrated but yea he's not a top 5 player, I agree with that. IMO he's anywhere from 7-10 I would personally say 8.

Munkeysuit
06-15-2014, 07:18 PM
You can argue all you want in Kobes defense, say what you wana say and break down the specifics...the bottom line is he would never have 3 of his 5 rings if it werent for Shaquille Oneal and 2 of the last 5 if it weren't for Pau Gasol...Shaq leaves, Kobe never won a dam thing (not even MVP) until Pau gets there and voila! 2 more rings on his fingers, the same fingers on those hands he never passes the ball with.

tredigs
06-15-2014, 07:28 PM
You can argue all you want in Kobes defense, say what you wana say and break down the specifics...the bottom line is he would never have 3 of his 5 rings if it werent for Shaquille Oneal and 2 of the last 5 if it weren't for Pau Gasol...dude never won anything as soon as Shaq left, then Pau slides and in and voila! 2 more rings on his fingers, the same fingers that are on one of the hands he never passes the ball with.

I love the "and voila!".

NBA Championships: They're just that easy! And clearly Kobe is the only legend who needed help to win, so this is relevant.

Lakers + Giants
06-15-2014, 08:20 PM
I love the "and voila!".

NBA Championships: They're just that easy! And clearly Kobe is the only legend who needed help to win, so this is relevant.

Exactly, Winning is just that easy!

slashsnake
06-15-2014, 09:11 PM
You can argue all you want in Kobes defense, say what you wana say and break down the specifics...the bottom line is he would never have 3 of his 5 rings if it werent for Shaquille Oneal and 2 of the last 5 if it weren't for Pau Gasol...Shaq leaves, Kobe never won a dam thing (not even MVP) until Pau gets there and voila! 2 more rings on his fingers, the same fingers on those hands he never passes the ball with.

He does pass the ball pretty well for a #1 scoring option. Sure, he gets in scoring mode and will try to be the one to take the shot, but that goes for just about every great non PG (or Bird/Lebron). Next year he will probably be the all time leader in NBA history in assists by a non-PG.

He doesn't win any rings without teammates, but it wasn't like Pau was winning rings before he came there, or even a single playoff game for that matter. I wouldn't put Pau up on the level of Scottie Pippen myself as a #2 guy, but if you feel he was, that's your choice. After seeing LA without Kobe this year, I'd disagree that he's the driving force to greatness. I'd say Kobe was easily their top dog those last two championships and that's what matters. That to me puts him in the top 10-15.

He didn't win an MVP, in the years guys like Atkins, Butler, Kwame Brown, Smush, Luke Walton, Brian Cook, Odom, and Mihm were his fellow starters. He was still top 5 in voting which is pretty amazing considering how bad that team was, and nearly won a playoff series in the West.

koreancabbage
06-15-2014, 09:33 PM
maybe his career isn't done yet? and the all time greats are?

beliges
06-15-2014, 10:42 PM
You can argue all you want in Kobes defense, say what you wana say and break down the specifics...the bottom line is he would never have 3 of his 5 rings if it werent for Shaquille Oneal and 2 of the last 5 if it weren't for Pau Gasol...Shaq leaves, Kobe never won a dam thing (not even MVP) until Pau gets there and voila! 2 more rings on his fingers, the same fingers on those hands he never passes the ball with.

All the greats had help. It's just kobe won more than most of those greats. That's what makes him one of the legends of the game and separates him from most of the other greats. Look at the heat. Spectacular talent yet they only managed to go 2-2. Which is great but they could've easily had 4 in a row. It's not easy to win even with a hof team. The greatests simply do it more than the greats.

Lakers + Giants
06-16-2014, 12:59 AM
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BTCxcNICYAArJv9.jpg:large

LA_Raiders
06-16-2014, 02:32 AM
Kobe is right up there with MJ

Hawkeye15
06-16-2014, 02:35 AM
I've seen ppl here say that Tmac, Vince, AI, and Ray Ray could've replaced kobe and still won 3 chips with shaq, that simpy isn't true, That is where I see kobe being underrated but yea he's not a top 5 player, I agree with that. IMO he's anywhere from 7-10 I would personally say 8.

we also have to factor in timing. Sure, and 2002-2003 Tmac probably would have been enough. But that timeline doesn't work. Outside that, I just don't see another perimeter wing that gives them 3 rings alongside Shaq.

Lakers + Giants
06-16-2014, 03:48 AM
we also have to factor in timing. Sure, and 2002-2003 Tmac probably would have been enough. But that timeline doesn't work. Outside that, I just don't see another perimeter wing that gives them 3 rings alongside Shaq.

Exactly, completely agree. IMO it's like this.

Tmac - Great peak, I'd say even better than kobe's but way too short a peak and injuries always a concern, no way shaq 3 peats with him. 1 ring? I think so.

Vince/Ray Allen - Great players, no disrespect, but just dont think they were on kobe's level tbh.

AI - I mean, if Shaq and Kobe went at it, imagine AI. . .Don't even think they would be a good paring.