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RocketLoc80
06-11-2014, 01:37 PM
How will it`s affect`s his all time ranking and standing if he loses the Finals again? Can he win again and can he still be a top 5 player of all time recognized as a a great>?

ManRam
06-11-2014, 01:50 PM
Takes a hit, for sure. "Ruins"? Of course not. Magic lost, what, 3 times in the Finals? Larry lost twice. Kareem lost at least a few times. Etc.

Losing in the Finals is bad, but getting there and losing is the second best result a team can have. It's a better team accomplishment than not making the Finals. Maybe a less impressive feat this year because of the landscape of the East, but still. The Spurs might truly just be a superior team than the Heat. It happens.

I don't look at the loss in 2007 as a bad thing either. They fact that they made it there was a huge feat in its own right. They had no business competing with the Spurs. 2011 was bad. The "badness" of this is to be determined.

What if he comes out an goes absolutely NOVA the next two games, but they still lose? It's more than just rings. Team success isn't that simple...and using it to judge individual greatness is even less simple.

NYJ - NYY
06-11-2014, 01:50 PM
It's a team game lol

RocketLoc80
06-11-2014, 01:52 PM
Cam he still be better than Kobe?

ManRam
06-11-2014, 01:56 PM
Cam he still be better than Kobe?

Why not? Kobe has two Finals losses. He had three years of horrible team play in the middle of his prime. He has fewer individual accolades than LeBron. If all we care about is team success, well, there are some lulls and disappointments in his career too.

5 Finals wins in 7 Finals appearances would look better than 2 Finals wins in 5 Finals appearances...but I don't think those team accolades totally slam the door shut. Especially factoring in Shaq. There's more to measuring greatness than team success...because, you know, team success is dependent on the team. It matters, a ton, but it's always gotta be taken into context.

abe_froman
06-11-2014, 01:57 PM
depends on how the rest of career shakes out

MagicBucsSox
06-11-2014, 01:57 PM
Yea kobe lost 2x and guys like Elway , the greatest qb, loss 3x. But this isn't the Dallas debacle. Lebron is the only constant for Miami . And bosh when he actually gets the ball. Chalmers should be benched. Play Douglas n cole

L8kers4life
06-11-2014, 01:58 PM
How will it`s affect`s his all time ranking and standing if he loses the Finals again? Can he win again and can he still be a top 5 player of all time recognized as a a great>?

It really depends on how his career finishes, if he finishes his career 2-3 in the finals, then yes it will affect his legacy. But if he goes to 3 or 4 more finals and wins 75% of them, he will still go down as a top 3 player of all time.

Pierzynski4Prez
06-11-2014, 01:58 PM
Heat losing just shows how much Wade is really done for. Assuming Lebron doesn't fade away like against Dallas.

d00d
06-11-2014, 01:58 PM
He lost them the finals last year then got bailed out. hopefully he loses this year and things go back to normal in the nba.

please change the name of this forum to Lebron Daily, too many ****ing useless threads about the guy

L8kers4life
06-11-2014, 01:59 PM
Yea kobe lost 2x and guys like Elway , the greatest qb, loss 3x. But this isn't the Dallas debacle. Lebron is the only constant for Miami . And bosh when he actually gets the ball. Chalmers should be benched. Play Douglas n cole

Kobe going 5-2 in the finals is different then 2-3 in the finals. Again it all depends on how LeBron finishes his career. if he finishes 2-3 all time in the finals, yes it will affect his legacy.

abe_froman
06-11-2014, 02:00 PM
Cam he still be better than Kobe?
i think it would be a hotly debated topic(assuming he doesnt win any more rings),as the stats argument would heavily favor lebron,while the winning argument would be on kobe's side.

ManRam
06-11-2014, 02:02 PM
Maybe you can label me a LeBron apologist and write it off, but I just shudder when people use him losing in the 2007 Finals as a negative thing against him. Hence why context matters so much. He was a pup and about half the player he is now. That team had no business making the Finals. It was an over-achievement if anything. But he and that team weren't ready for the Finals at all at that point in time.

bucketss
06-11-2014, 02:03 PM
He lost them the finals last year then got bailed out. hopefully he loses this year and things go back to normal in the nba.

please change the name of this forum to Lebron Daily, too many ****ing useless threads about the guy

maybe u should stop posting in them? seems like you enjoy the topic

bucketss
06-11-2014, 02:03 PM
Cam he still be better than Kobe?

hes already many levels better than kobe c'mon son

Pablonovi
06-11-2014, 02:05 PM
Takes a hit, for sure. "Ruins"? Of course not. Magic lost, what, 3 times in the Finals? Larry lost twice. Kareem lost at least a few times. Etc.

Losing in the Finals is bad, but getting there and losing is the second best result a team can have. It's a better team accomplishment than not making the Finals. Maybe a less impressive feat this year because of the landscape of the East, but still. The Spurs might truly just be a superior team than the Heat. It happens.

I don't look at the loss in 2007 as a bad thing either. They fact that they made it there was a huge feat in its own right. They had no business competing with the Spurs. 2011 was bad. The "badness" of this is to be determined.

What if he comes out an goes absolutely NOVA the next two games, but they still lose? It's more than just rings. Team success isn't that simple...and using it to judge individual greatness is even less simple.

Losing In The Finals Is WAY BETTER Than Not-Making The Finals!
because
THE 30 Best Basketball Teams In The World Are All In The NBA; Amongst Them, Finishing 2nd IS GREAT
or, in other words, by way of one important example:

Would people consider Jerry West as great if he had only made it to the one Finals that his team won (1972); instead of to a total of 9 times (even though they lost the other, first 8)? Of course, all those (losing) Finals appearances HELP his All-Time Ranking.

Hey ManRam,
Nice post.
This "Finish First Or You're A Loser" thinking is very prevalent; but, imo, dead wrong.

Your NBA team is competing against 29 other of the 30 Best Basketball Teams In The World, to first make the Play-Offs (after a challenging 82 game schedule); and then, against the 7 other best teams in your Conference to get thru 3 Rounds against ever increasing competition. So, if you make the Finals, that's a tremendous achievement. To lose the Finals is NOT failure; 2nd Best is Great (it's just 1 spot less than #1).

6 Examples (representing my NBA All-Time GOAT Top 5 Plus 1 Other Top 15-er):

#1. KAJ's teams made it to 10 Finals (winning 6, losing 4). If his teams had only made 6 Finals (winning all of them); IMO, that'd have been decidedly INFERIOR.

#2. Magic's teams made it to 9 Finals (winning 5, losing 4). If his teams had only made 5 Finals (winning all of them); IMO, that'd have been decidedly INFERIOR.

#3. MJ's teams made it to 6 Finals (winning all 6). If, instead of repeatedly losing in earlier rounds, some of his teams had made additional Finals (but losing all of them); IMO, that'd have been decidedly SUPERIOR.

#4. Wilt's teams made it to 7 Finals (winning 2, losing 5). If, his teams had only made 2 Finals (winning both of them); IMO, that'd have been decidedly INFERIOR.

#5. LeBron's teams have made it to 5 Finals (so far: winning 2, losing 2). If, his teams had only made the Finals in the years won (2-3, depending on this year's Finals); IMO, that'd be decidedly INFERIOR. 5 Finals (with 2-3 Chips) is way better than 2 or 3 Finals (with 2 or 3 Chips)

#6. Jerry West's teams made it to 9 Finals (winning 1, losing 8). If, his teams had only made 1 Finals (winning it); IMO, that'd have been decidedly INFERIOR.

I don't see how any intelligent person who puts much serious thought into this question at all, can come to any other conclusion. Give any player a certain number of Finals Victories; he'd rather have as many other Finals (loses) as possible (rather than lose instead earlier in the Play-Offs - and so would his fans and the experts.

L8kers4life
06-11-2014, 02:09 PM
hes already many levels better than kobe c'mon son

Bucketss, quit trolling, if you honestly think he is many levels better than Kobe, you have no clue.

L8kers4life
06-11-2014, 02:12 PM
Why not? Kobe has two Finals losses. He had three years of horrible team play in the middle of his prime. He has fewer individual accolades than LeBron. If all we care about is team success, well, there are some lulls and disappointments in his career too.

5 Finals wins in 7 Finals appearances would look better than 2 Finals wins in 5 Finals appearances...but I don't think those team accolades totally slam the door shut. Especially factoring in Shaq. There's more to measuring greatness than team success...because, you know, team success is dependent on the team. It matters, a ton, but it's always gotta be taken into context.

I agree ManRam, Kobe benefited from some great teams. But if Lebron finishes 2-3 in the finals it will definitly not help that argument. But with that being said, Lebron will go to more finals and will probably win a few more rings. All in all, I think Lebron will go down as the 2nd best palyer of all time behind MJ.

ManRam
06-11-2014, 02:14 PM
THE 30 Best Basketball Teams In The World Are All In The NBA; Finishing 2nd IS GREAT

Hey ManRam,
Nice post.
This "Finish First Or You're A Loser" thinking is very prevalent; but, imo, dead wrong.

Your NBA team is competing against 14 other of the 30 Best Basketball Teams In The World, to first make the Play-Offs (after a challenging 82 game schedule); and then get thru 3 Rounds against ever increasing competition. So, I you make the Finals, that's a tremendous achievement. To lose the Finals is NOT failure; 2nd Best is Great (it's just 1 spot less than #1).

Some examples:
KAJ's teams made it to 10 Finals (winning 6, losing 4). If his teams had only made 6 Finals (winning all of them; IMO, that'd be decidedly INFERIOR.

I agree.

6-4 is better than 6-0 IMO (assuming the player spanned a similar amount of years). Because that 6-0 is really 6 wins in the Finals and a lot of losses in earlier rounds. Those losses are often ignored for whatever reason, but why?

beliges
06-11-2014, 02:15 PM
A loss in these finals certainly won't RUIN his legacy, but it'll certainly hurt because at this point in his career, all he has left to accomplish are championships, especially considering he is on one of the more stacked teams in the history of the league with the BIG 3. A 2-2 Finals record with this Miami team is something that will haunt him forever because the sole reason for him joining Bosh and Wade in Miami was for him to be able to win rings more easily. These will all be fair criticisms. Losing in these finals won't diminish his status as an all-time great, but it would put a final nail in all the talk about TOP 5, or Mt. Rushmore, and all that other non-sense.

cooters22
06-11-2014, 02:20 PM
The DECISION ruined it already.

beliges
06-11-2014, 02:26 PM
The DECISION ruined it already.

In some people's eyes it did. But in reality, the only way to overcome the DECISION was to win multiple titles as that was the whole point. Everyone complaint about the lack of talent around Lebron has the excuse for Lebron not being able to get over the hump. Now, with a super team, going 2-2 in the Finals would almost be unacceptable and would haunt his legacy forever in my opinion. While he will still go down as an all-time great and probably a top 10 player, it would certainly leave a lot to be desired from him.

TheIlladelph16
06-11-2014, 02:37 PM
A loss in these finals certainly won't RUIN his legacy, but it'll certainly hurt because at this point in his career, all he has left to accomplish are championships, especially considering he is on one of the more stacked teams in the history of the league with the BIG 3. A 2-2 Finals record with this Miami team is something that will haunt him forever because the sole reason for him joining Bosh and Wade in Miami was for him to be able to win rings more easily. These will all be fair criticisms. Losing in these finals won't diminish his status as an all-time great, but it would put a final nail in all the talk about TOP 5, or Mt. Rushmore, and all that other non-sense.

People keep saying this, yet I'm convinced everyone who does hasn't watched the Miami Heat this year and a big chunk of last year. Maybe in Year 1 you can argue that was the case, but now? That supporting cast outside of Bosh, a hobbled and bottoming out Wade, and Ray "Only Shoots Threes" Allen, who honestly thinks they are that good?

Bosh is the only one I would argue is an all-star at this point in his career, yet I'm supposed to just listen to the narrative that he's got the most stacked team in the history of the game? It's bull****.

WadeCounty
06-11-2014, 02:40 PM
Ruins it for sure. Just in my eyes though :)

Jeffy25
06-11-2014, 02:43 PM
Cam he still be better than Kobe?

Already is?

jerellh528
06-11-2014, 02:43 PM
A loss in these finals certainly won't RUIN his legacy, but it'll certainly hurt because at this point in his career, all he has left to accomplish are championships, especially considering he is on one of the more stacked teams in the history of the league with the BIG 3. A 2-2 Finals record with this Miami team is something that will haunt him forever because the sole reason for him joining Bosh and Wade in Miami was for him to be able to win rings more easily. These will all be fair criticisms. Losing in these finals won't diminish his status as an all-time great, but it would put a final nail in all the talk about TOP 5, or Mt. Rushmore, and all that other non-sense.

Agreed

Pablonovi
06-11-2014, 02:50 PM
I agree.

6-4 is better than 6-0 IMO (assuming the player spanned a similar amount of years). Because that 6-0 is really 6 wins in the Finals and a lot of losses in earlier rounds. Those losses are often ignored for whatever reason, but why?

Hey Man Ram,
MJ's career spanned 19 chronological years, during which he played in 15 seasons, 13 of which were full-seasons (in 2 he only played less than 20 games). Of those 15 seasons he played, he only made the Finals 6 times, thus failing to even make the Finals 9 Times!

For each one of those 9 seasons, IF his team had made it to the Finals instead of either not even qualifying (2 years) or losing before the Finals, that would clearly be better for him and his reputation.

People "forget" the 9 years of "failures"; a lot because of the "mystique" that he was invincible; he was far from that.

In sum:
19 Chronological Years,
15 Years Played
(4.8 Years NOT Played)
13 Years In Play-Offs
6 Finals & Chips
7 Years Instead of Making It To The Finals, his teams didn't even make the Play-Offs or lost in earlier rounds.

in other words, during a 19-Year Period, he made the Finals less than 1/3rd of the times.
(Compare this, for example, to KAJ, who during his 20-Year Career, made it to the Finals 10 times (exactly 1/2 of the time.)
During MJ's 19 chronological Years & KAJ's 20 chronological Years:
MJ:.. 13 Play-Offs,. 6 Finals, 6 Chips
KAJ: 18 Play-Offs, 10 Finals, 6 Chips

P.S. I accidentally posted that earlier post of mine (to which this post of yours was a direct reply).
I've since finished that post - it's considerably longer and more chock-full of info. You might want to re-review it?

ewing
06-11-2014, 02:52 PM
Not unless he jumps ship to play with better superstars

ackar
06-11-2014, 02:54 PM
Lebron will still go down as one of the greatest but not the Greatest. Great players loose from time to time.

Jeffy25
06-11-2014, 02:54 PM
Spurs had 7 players get a 15.0 PER and play 1000 min. In the playoffs, they have 8 guys playing league average or better.

8 players scored 9 points per game.

9 players had at least 4 win shares.



The Heat had 5 guys score 9 points per game

4 players had a 15.0 PER and played 1000 minutes.



6 guys had 4 win shares.


Honestly, would prime Jordan beat these spurs? They are a beastly good team. Balanced and can beat you in a lot of ways.


Getting to the finals and losing isn't a slight for Lebron. That's silly.


Magic Johnson's lost in the finals 4 times with hall of famers on his teams, and won 5 times.

Bird lost twice with hall of famers and only won 3 times.

If he loses to a team with 4 rings already, there is no shame in that.

Hellcrooner
06-11-2014, 03:01 PM
wilt, Russell, west, dr J, magic, kareem, Big O, bird, Shaq, Ducan, KObe all have lost in the finals.
So what?

Hey they made them.

Is it worse to lose on finals or in 1st/second/conference?

Jordan lost some 1st, 2nd and Conference finals and he also missed playoffs.

So?
whats the point?

Bruno
06-11-2014, 03:02 PM
no, everyone loses in the finals. the greats get there all the time and nobody wins them all (except MJ and the Bulls).

Lo Porto
06-11-2014, 03:05 PM
The first Finals "loss" shouldn't really be looked upon as anything negative. You can only talk legacy by comparing him it to his constituents. LeBron taking Cleveland to the Finals (regardless of the outcome) should go more towards his credit than to ruining his legacy. MJ and Kobe never took a team that bad that far. Jordan was 1-9 without Pippen or a true costar. Kobe has been the same.

As for this year, I think losing it costs him his chances of having a true argument against Jordan should LeBron have another great 5 years ahead. Losing in Cleveland and even year 1 in Miami is excusable. His timetable was still ahead of Jordan's. But losing this one would mean no three peat and 2-3 in the Finals.

So in other words, LBJ could still be on a path to go down as the greatest player ever or at least Mount Rushmore with a Finals 2014 win. With a loss, he'll have a ton of work to do.

gangis2169
06-11-2014, 03:06 PM
Those that may have lost like Kobe, Magic, Kareem, Etc. all won more than they lost. If you don't count the 2007 finals then you shouldn't count the last 2 rings cause as bad as that team was he got to the finals and lets face it he was smart formed a super team where he knew the competition would be way below par. I think Lebron is a great player but lets say he loses this year and wins another down the road he is where I thought he would be Top 10 nothing more.



Takes a hit, for sure. "Ruins"? Of course not. Magic lost, what, 3 times in the Finals? Larry lost twice. Kareem lost at least a few times. Etc.

Losing in the Finals is bad, but getting there and losing is the second best result a team can have. It's a better team accomplishment than not making the Finals. Maybe a less impressive feat this year because of the landscape of the East, but still. The Spurs might truly just be a superior team than the Heat. It happens.

I don't look at the loss in 2007 as a bad thing either. They fact that they made it there was a huge feat in its own right. They had no business competing with the Spurs. 2011 was bad. The "badness" of this is to be determined.

What if he comes out an goes absolutely NOVA the next two games, but they still lose? It's more than just rings. Team success isn't that simple...and using it to judge individual greatness is even less simple.

gangis2169
06-11-2014, 03:08 PM
Most of those haven't lose more than they won. Lebron will be below .500 in the finals not a great to me.


wilt, Russell, west, dr J, magic, kareem, Big O, bird, Shaq, Ducan, KObe all have lost in the finals.
So what?

Hey they made them.

Is it worse to lose on finals or in 1st/second/conference?

Jordan lost some 1st, 2nd and Conference finals and he also missed playoffs.

So?
whats the point?

DoMeFavors
06-11-2014, 03:08 PM
Every finals loss hurts him, losing in the finals 3 times would hurt him a lot. I think it moves him out of top 4 all time

gangis2169
06-11-2014, 03:09 PM
Seriously the East is garbage taking a team to the Finals is like taking a team to the second round in the West. Not impressed.



The first Finals "loss" shouldn't really be looked upon as anything negative. You can only talk legacy by comparing him it to his constituents. LeBron taking Cleveland to the Finals (regardless of the outcome) should go more towards his credit than to ruining his legacy. MJ and Kobe never took a team that bad that far. Jordan was 1-9 without Pippen or a true costar. Kobe has been the same.

As for this year, I think losing it costs him his chances of having a true argument against Jordan should LeBron have another great 5 years ahead. Losing in Cleveland and even year 1 in Miami is excusable. His timetable was still ahead of Jordan's. But losing this one would mean no three peat and 2-3 in the Finals.

So in other words, LBJ could still be on a path to go down as the greatest player ever or at least Mount Rushmore with a Finals 2014 win. With a loss, he'll have a ton of work to do.

gangis2169
06-11-2014, 03:11 PM
When you have .500 or below teams constantly in the playoffs a conference champion should not be an accomplishment.

bucketss
06-11-2014, 03:11 PM
Most of those haven't lose more than they won. Lebron will be below .500 in the finals not a great to me.

so what you're saying is if lebron lost in the ecf in 2007 like he was suppose to, that would have been better for his legacy?

RocketLoc80
06-11-2014, 03:16 PM
Every finals loss hurts him, losing in the finals 3 times would hurt him a lot. I think it moves him out of top 4 all time

Ok who`s your top 10 of alltime?

RocketLoc80
06-11-2014, 03:17 PM
Those that may have lost like Kobe, Magic, Kareem, Etc. all won more than they lost. If you don't count the 2007 finals then you shouldn't count the last 2 rings cause as bad as that team was he got to the finals and lets face it he was smart formed a super team where he knew the competition would be way below par. I think Lebron is a great player but lets say he loses this year and wins another down the road he is where I thought he would be Top 10 nothing more.So who`s your top 10 genius

DoMeFavors
06-11-2014, 03:24 PM
Ok who`s your top 10 of alltime?

Jordan
Magic Johnson
Oscar Robertson
Bird
Hakeem Olajuwon
Bill Russell
Kareem
LeBron James
Duncan
Shaq

MagicBucsSox
06-11-2014, 03:25 PM
Kobe going 5-2 in the finals is different then 2-3 in the finals. Again it all depends on how LeBron finishes his career. if he finishes 2-3 all time in the finals, yes it will affect his legacy.

I agree but he's been there more times than Kobe and mj by age 30. He's only down 2-1 this series. And as MAnRam, said in 07 he made it on a crap team and ppl hold that against him. It should be a celebration of his greatness because nor mike kobe magic Shaq, no one else did that that I can think of this second. If Miami loses it should fall on Wade's door step if anything. He's the one not rising up. But he's always excused for a title he won 9 years ago on a team better this this heat regime.

MagicBucsSox
06-11-2014, 03:27 PM
Jordan
Magic Johnson
Oscar Robertson
Bird
Hakeem Olajuwon
Bill Russell
Kareem
LeBron James
Duncan
Shaq

Lmao how old are you? I guarantee you've never seen 5 of those guys play unless you're over 45 years old. Add to that a top 10 w/o Malone or kobe

Raps18-19 Champ
06-11-2014, 03:30 PM
Nope. If he stays 2-3, it won't look too good though. But it depends if it is his fault or not. If he averages like 30 PPG and stuff but they lose, can't blame that on him too much.

But it's sure as hell a lot better than being 2-0.

I'd rather lose in the finals than not make it at all.

beliges
06-11-2014, 03:31 PM
wilt, Russell, west, dr J, magic, kareem, Big O, bird, Shaq, Ducan, KObe all have lost in the finals.
So what?

Hey they made them.

Is it worse to lose on finals or in 1st/second/conference?

Jordan lost some 1st, 2nd and Conference finals and he also missed playoffs.

So?
whats the point?

Russell, Magic, Kareem, Shaq, Duncan and Kobe all have 4 + titles. If Lebron wants to reach the status of those players, he simply needs to win more rings. Otherwise, he will never get there. At this point in his career, the only thing he has left to prove is he can win like the greats before him have won. Especially considering he purposefully joined to other superstar players to ensure he wins multiple championships.

beliges
06-11-2014, 03:34 PM
People keep saying this, yet I'm convinced everyone who does hasn't watched the Miami Heat this year and a big chunk of last year. Maybe in Year 1 you can argue that was the case, but now? That supporting cast outside of Bosh, a hobbled and bottoming out Wade, and Ray "Only Shoots Threes" Allen, who honestly thinks they are that good?

Bosh is the only one I would argue is an all-star at this point in his career, yet I'm supposed to just listen to the narrative that he's got the most stacked team in the history of the game? It's bull****.

Its not about how they perform, its about the talent level. Sorry but a team with Wade, Bosh, Lebron, Ray Allen, and the rest of their role players is as stacked as almost any other team to date. So yes, talent wise, this Miami team stacks up against any other team in the history of the league. Certainly there no longer is the excuse that Lebron doesnt have the talent around him. He chose to go to Miami, to team up with Wade and Bosh, and now he needs to deliver if he wants to be up there with the Magics, Birds, Kobes, Duncans, Shaqs, etc...

ewing
06-11-2014, 03:35 PM
Lmao how old are you? I guarantee you've never seen 5 of those guys play unless you're over 45 years old. Add to that a top 10 w/o Malone or kobe

YEAH! iM NOT 45 AND I'VE SEEN EVERYONE ON THAT LIST BUT RUSSEL AND THE BIG O

DoMeFavors
06-11-2014, 03:36 PM
Lmao how old are you? I guarantee you've never seen 5 of those guys play unless you're over 45 years old. Add to that a top 10 w/o Malone or kobe

So what if I havent seen some play? I cant have an opinion? Malone,Kobe,KG,Kidd are in my next 10

raiderfaninTX
06-11-2014, 03:38 PM
He's already better than kobe but yes if he takes another loss, I'm sorry he should never be compared to Jordan.
He can still be top 3 all time though.

DoMeFavors
06-11-2014, 03:42 PM
Russell, Magic, Kareem, Shaq, Duncan and Kobe all have 4 + titles. If Lebron wants to reach the status of those players, he simply needs to win more rings. Otherwise, he will never get there. At this point in his career, the only thing he has left to prove is he can win like the greats before him have won. Especially considering he purposefully joined to other superstar players to ensure he wins multiple championships.

Not only that he needs to win those rings as the best player on his team he cant win 2 at 35 years old as a back seat man. Needs to win 5+ as the man.

bucketss
06-11-2014, 03:46 PM
Not only that he needs to win those rings as the best player on his team he cant win 2 at 35 years old as a back seat man. Needs to win 5+ as the man.

why not kobe won 3 like that.

DoMeFavors
06-11-2014, 03:49 PM
why not kobe won 3 like that.

I dont have Kobe all time over LeBron, but without Kobe those Laker teams dont win anything. Kobe was on same level as Shaq.

KnicksorBust
06-11-2014, 03:49 PM
I agree.

6-4 is better than 6-0 IMO (assuming the player spanned a similar amount of years). Because that 6-0 is really 6 wins in the Finals and a lot of losses in earlier rounds. Those losses are often ignored for whatever reason, but why?

Haven't we had this discussion before? :)

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?853671-More-Impressive-6-0-in-Finals-or-5-4-in-Finals&p=27929931#post27929931


Russell, Magic, Kareem, Shaq, Duncan and Kobe all have 4 + titles. If Lebron wants to reach the status of those players, he simply needs to win more rings. Otherwise, he will never get there. At this point in his career, the only thing he has left to prove is he can win like the greats before him have won. Especially considering he purposefully joined to other superstar players to ensure he wins multiple championships.

I always struggle when I read a post like this because if LeBron averages 30-8-8 for the next 5 seasons and becomes the all-time leader in MVPs but doesn't get the rings... would some people still actually rank him behind Kobe?

KnicksorBust
06-11-2014, 03:50 PM
I agree.

6-4 is better than 6-0 IMO (assuming the player spanned a similar amount of years). Because that 6-0 is really 6 wins in the Finals and a lot of losses in earlier rounds. Those losses are often ignored for whatever reason, but why?


Losing In The Finals Is WAY BETTER Than Not-Making The Finals!
because
THE 30 Best Basketball Teams In The World Are All In The NBA; Amongst Them, Finishing 2nd IS GREAT
or, in other words, by way of one important example:

Would people consider Jerry West as great if he had only made it to the one Finals that his team won (1972); instead of to a total of 9 times (even though they lost the other, first 8)? Of course, all those (losing) Finals appearances HELP his All-Time Ranking.

Hey ManRam,
Nice post.
This "Finish First Or You're A Loser" thinking is very prevalent; but, imo, dead wrong.

Your NBA team is competing against 29 other of the 30 Best Basketball Teams In The World, to first make the Play-Offs (after a challenging 82 game schedule); and then, against the 7 other best teams in your Conference to get thru 3 Rounds against ever increasing competition. So, if you make the Finals, that's a tremendous achievement. To lose the Finals is NOT failure; 2nd Best is Great (it's just 1 spot less than #1).

6 Examples (representing my NBA All-Time GOAT Top 5 Plus 1 Other Top 15-er):

#1. KAJ's teams made it to 10 Finals (winning 6, losing 4). If his teams had only made 6 Finals (winning all of them); IMO, that'd have been decidedly INFERIOR.

#2. Magic's teams made it to 9 Finals (winning 5, losing 4). If his teams had only made 5 Finals (winning all of them); IMO, that'd have been decidedly INFERIOR.

#3. MJ's teams made it to 6 Finals (winning all 6). If, instead of repeatedly losing in earlier rounds, some of his teams had made additional Finals (but losing all of them); IMO, that'd have been decidedly SUPERIOR.

#4. Wilt's teams made it to 7 Finals (winning 2, losing 5). If, his teams had only made 2 Finals (winning both of them); IMO, that'd have been decidedly INFERIOR.

#5. LeBron's teams have made it to 5 Finals (so far: winning 2, losing 2). If, his teams had only made the Finals in the years won (2-3, depending on this year's Finals); IMO, that'd be decidedly INFERIOR. 5 Finals (with 2-3 Chips) is way better than 2 or 3 Finals (with 2 or 3 Chips)

#6. Jerry West's teams made it to 9 Finals (winning 1, losing 8). If, his teams had only made 1 Finals (winning it); IMO, that'd have been decidedly INFERIOR.

I don't see how any intelligent person who puts much serious thought into this question at all, can come to any other conclusion. Give any player a certain number of Finals Victories; he'd rather have as many other Finals (loses) as possible (rather than lose instead earlier in the Play-Offs - and so would his fans and the experts.

PSD disagrees with you... by almost a 2-1 margin.

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?853671-More-Impressive-6-0-in-Finals-or-5-4-in-Finals&p=27929931#post27929931

ManRam
06-11-2014, 03:52 PM
Not only that he needs to win those rings as the best player on his team he cant win 2 at 35 years old as a back seat man. Needs to win 5+ as the man.

Like Kareem did? Or Shaq did (just one). Or hell, Duncan might just be doing? That's half the guys he mentioned.


Why does he need more rings than Bird to be better than Bird?

DoMeFavors
06-11-2014, 03:54 PM
Like Kareem did? Or Shaq did (just one). Or hell, Duncan might just be doing? That's half the guys he mentioned.


Why does he need more rings than Bird to be better than Bird?

You are really dismissing the importance of winning championships.

THE MTL
06-11-2014, 03:59 PM
I think its a feat in itself to make it to the finals 5 times first of all.... and to have won at least 2 of them (cause this one isnt over yet).

ManRam
06-11-2014, 04:02 PM
PSD disagrees with you... by almost a 2-1 margin.

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?853671-More-Impressive-6-0-in-Finals-or-5-4-in-Finals&p=27929931#post27929931

I really only will speak in absolutes when the time frames are equal.

For example, if Player A and B both play in the NBA for 10 years. In his 10 year career, Player A makes 6 Finals and wins all of them but every other season he fails to get to the Finals. Player B makes 9 Finals in his career (those only losing in the conference Finals or earlier once) and wins 5 but loses 4.

I think Player B had had more consistent success.

Player A and B had 5 seasons where they had equal team success.
Player A had one season where he had more team success than B.
Player B had 3 seasons where he had more team success than A.

Player B lost before the Finals just once. Player A lost before the Finals 4 times. I think the former is more impressive.

Aside from this season and I'm sure a select few others, getting to the Finals is an amazing team accomplishment. It is better than not getting there. Getting there and losing 4 times is better than not getting there, yet often that's not how it's viewed. We look at a Finals lose more negatively than we look at a loss any other time it seems like.


All of this is more or less moot. Without context it means nothing. I don't think I'm necessarily right at all, either. That's just my personal preference. And it works more clearly when you're comparing 3-2 vs. 3-0 or something. I'd take 3-2 over 3-0 every time without any hesitation in the world (again, unless context dictates otherwise)

DoMeFavors
06-11-2014, 04:02 PM
I think its a feat in itself to make it to the finals 5 times first of all.... and to have won at least 2 of them (cause this one isnt over yet).

I dont, because the EAST is pretty weak and making the finals maybe in the 90s or in the West right now is a big accomplishment. Is it really impressive to beat the Bobcats, brook lopez less Nets and a pacers team that might be the worst ECF team ever impressive?

I dont think its a big deal Heat made it to the finals any year the east is pathetic.

ManRam
06-11-2014, 04:03 PM
You are really dismissing the importance of winning championships.

No. It's all these players stride for. It's of extreme importance. It's the ultimate mark of team success.


You are really dismissing the importance of taking TEAM success with HUGE grains of salt when debating INDIVIDUAL careers and legacy. You, and many others, often can't distinguish the individual from the team.

Wanna answer the question?

DoMeFavors
06-11-2014, 04:07 PM
No. It's all these players stride for. It's of extreme importance. It's the ultimate mark of team success.


You are really dismissing the importance of taking TEAM success with HUGE grains of salt when debating INDIVIDUAL careers and legacy. You, and many others, often can't distinguish the individual from the team.

Wanna answer the question?

Why does he need more rings than Bird to be better than Bird?

Both are two of the best SFs of all time if not the two best, but winning a championship means you are the best team in the league at that point in time. Bird being the best player of that team I think that makes him better than LeBron if LeBron cant win more championships than him. Especially playing with Chris Bosh and Wade.

ManRam
06-11-2014, 04:14 PM
Why does he need more rings than Bird to be better than Bird?

Both are two of the best SFs of all time if not the two best, but winning a championship means you are the best team in the league at that point in time. Bird being the best player of that team I think that makes him better than LeBron if LeBron cant win more championships than him. Especially playing with Chris Bosh and Wade.

You fault LeBron for playing with Wade and Bosh (not in their HOF-caliber primes) but are willing to overlook the fact that Larry played with 2 other All Stars in each of his 3 championship seasons too? Or that he played with either 3 or 4 other HOFers in those 3 seasons as well? Or that he had TWO teammates in the top-10 in win shares in 81 and 84...where LeBron has only had one teammate in his entire career crack the top-10 (Wade 2011)?

Let's be consistent. If you're gonna bash LeBron for having help, you can't ignore what the guys you're comparing him to had.

beliges
06-11-2014, 04:15 PM
No. It's all these players stride for. It's of extreme importance. It's the ultimate mark of team success.


You are really dismissing the importance of taking TEAM success with HUGE grains of salt when debating INDIVIDUAL careers and legacy. You, and many others, often can't distinguish the individual from the team.

Wanna answer the question?

Sorry dude but if you are on the best team in the league and you are trying to become a player of legendary status such as those that came before you, winning championships IS an individual accomplishment. This team lives and dies by Lebron. If Lebron was the best player on the floor for each of these 3 games, Miami would have won each of those 3 games. You cannot have it both ways. A measure of a truly great player is how he can take his great team and win championships. Miami winning and losing the championship has EVERYTHING to do with Lebron. There simply is no excuse anymore. Lebron is on a tremendously great team. He needs to win championships with this team to be on the same status as guys like Magic, MJ, Kobe, Duncan, Shaq, etc... Furthermore, he hasnt been all that great in these Finals either. He needs to step it up and play like an all time great, like he did in game 2.

basketfan4life
06-11-2014, 04:17 PM
Whoever uses 2007 finals loss against LeBrons legacy, i mean come on. That is stupid.

jerellh528
06-11-2014, 04:18 PM
No. It's all these players stride for. It's of extreme importance. It's the ultimate mark of team success.


You are really dismissing the importance of taking TEAM success with HUGE grains of salt when debating INDIVIDUAL careers and legacy. You, and many others, often can't distinguish the individual from the team.

Wanna answer the question?

The great ones find a way. No coincidence the top 10 of all time have multiple.

Iron24th
06-11-2014, 04:19 PM
I smell a troll in the OP

D-Leethal
06-11-2014, 04:21 PM
Not unless he jumps ship to play with better superstars

Best answer in this thread.

DoMeFavors
06-11-2014, 04:21 PM
You fault LeBron for playing with Wade and Bosh (not in their HOF-caliber primes) but are willing to overlook the fact that Larry played with 2 other All Stars in each of his 3 championship seasons too? Or that he played with either 3 or 4 other HOFers in those 3 seasons as well? Or that he had TWO teammates in the top-10 in win shares in 81 and 84...where LeBron has only had one teammate in his entire career crack the top-10 (Wade 2011)?

Let's be consistent. If you're gonna bash LeBron for having help, you can't ignore what the guys you're comparing him to had.

the league was better back then, talent wise currently in the NBA who compares to the Heat? Look at the teams back then in the Bird era historical all around, what historical teams are currently playing in the NBA? Heat I would put in there but no other team in this current league impressives me to the level of the teams Bird and the Celtics took down. Bird faced the likes of Hakeem and Magic and took them down. LeBron took down a 37 year old Duncan and Kevin Durant and the OKC who looked scared in 2012.

ManRam
06-11-2014, 04:24 PM
the league was better back then, talent wise currently in the NBA who compares to the Heat? Look at the teams back then in the Bird era historical all around, what historical teams are currently playing in the NBA? Heat I would put in there but no other team in this current league impressives me to the level of the teams Bird and the Celtics took down. Bird faced the likes of Hakeem and Magic and took them down. LeBron took down a 37 year old Duncan and Kevin Durant and the OKC who looked scared in 2012.

The Spurs compare to the Heat. :shrug: Bird's Finals opponents were pretty darn good, no doubt. The Heat at least the last two years have been too.

But the C's beat the Bucks the last two times Bird won. Were those teams terribly amazing? IDK. Certainly not historically-so. Where are the HOFers?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIL/1986.html

ManRam
06-11-2014, 04:26 PM
Sorry dude but if you are on the best team in the league and you are trying to become a player of legendary status such as those that came before you, winning championships IS an individual accomplishment. This team lives and dies by Lebron. If Lebron was the best player on the floor for each of these 3 games, Miami would have won each of those 3 games. You cannot have it both ways. A measure of a truly great player is how he can take his great team and win championships. Miami winning and losing the championship has EVERYTHING to do with Lebron. There simply is no excuse anymore. Lebron is on a tremendously great team. He needs to win championships with this team to be on the same status as guys like Magic, MJ, Kobe, Duncan, Shaq, etc... Furthermore, he hasnt been all that great in these Finals either. He needs to step it up and play like an all time great, like he did in game 2.

Team success is absolutely tied into individual legacy. I'm not saying it shouldn't be. In the NBA one player can have a far greater impact on a team than one player can in baseball, football or hockey.


But merely going "3 rings > 2 rings therefore this player is better than that player" is lazy and missing tremendous amounts of important context.

DoMeFavors
06-11-2014, 04:29 PM
The Spurs compare to the Heat. :shrug: Bird's Finals opponents were pretty darn good, no doubt. The Heat at least the last two years have been too.

But the C's beat the Bucks the last two times Bird won. Were those teams terribly amazing? IDK. Certainly not historically-so. Where are the HOFers?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIL/1986.html
he also beat Dominique Wilkins in 86 who was one of the best players in the game, I just think Bird has accomplished a lot more beaten a lot better players than LeBron.

ManRam
06-11-2014, 04:32 PM
he also beat Dominique Wilkins in 86 who was one of the best players in the game, I just think Bird has accomplished a lot more beaten a lot better players than LeBron.

That's fine.

I'm just not entirely convinced that ignoring individual play and solely focusing on team success is the way to compare individuals. Too many variables involved. Too many factors that have nothing to do with the individual. That's all. Again, this is all spawned out of the measuring-rings-to-determine-legacy thing. I just think there's so much more to it than just counting rings.

DoMeFavors
06-11-2014, 04:33 PM
That's fine.

I'm just not entirely convinced that ignoring individual play and solely focusing on team success is the way to compare individuals. Too many variables involved. Too many factors that have nothing to do with the individual. That's all. Again, this is all spawned out of the measuring-rings-to-determine-legacy thing. I just think there's so much more to it than just counting rings.

I have no problem with your point, it isnt a flawed point. Its just something I disagree with.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-11-2014, 04:40 PM
You fault LeBron for playing with Wade and Bosh (not in their HOF-caliber primes)
What? He has played with Bosh from age 26 to 30. Wade from 28 to 32. That's pretty prime to me. You say they are not in their primes because they have diminished numbers. But that is because they play with Lebron. He eats first. Wade took a back seat and Bosh totally has become an outlet if Lebron gets in trouble on his drives. Bosh has gone further and further away from the basket so that Lebron and Wade have driving lanes. Now people are blaming these guys for not being great players when they have sacrificed for the team and Lebrons numbers.

but are willing to overlook the fact that Larry played with 2 other All Stars in each of his 3 championship seasons too? Or that he played with either 3 or 4 other HOFers in those 3 seasons as well?

But Parish was 30 when they won their first, and 33 when they won their last. He was out of his prime right?


Or that he had TWO teammates in the top-10 in win shares in 81 and 84...where LeBron has only had one teammate in his entire career crack the top-10 (Wade 2011)?

Wade was ranked 8, 3, 4 before Lebron came. And isn't the point guards job to make his teammates better? I have been hearing that Lebron makes his teammates better for years but every player that plays next to him has their number (both counting and efficiency wise) drop. That is because his teammates are asked to spread the floor as outlets to allow Lebron to drive for an efficient shot, or kick it out to his teammates for a less efficient one.


Let's be consistent. If you're gonna bash LeBron for having help, you can't ignore what the guys you're comparing him to had.

I agree with that. But lets not act like he is the first one to have that criticism against him. It gets brought up for Magic, Bird, and especially Kobe.

bucketss
06-11-2014, 04:47 PM
Sorry dude but if you are on the best team in the league and you are trying to become a player of legendary status such as those that came before you, winning championships IS an individual accomplishment. This team lives and dies by Lebron. If Lebron was the best player on the floor for each of these 3 games, Miami would have won each of those 3 games. You cannot have it both ways. A measure of a truly great player is how he can take his great team and win championships. Miami winning and losing the championship has EVERYTHING to do with Lebron. There simply is no excuse anymore. Lebron is on a tremendously great team. He needs to win championships with this team to be on the same status as guys like Magic, MJ, Kobe, Duncan, Shaq, etc... Furthermore, he hasnt been all that great in these Finals either. He needs to step it up and play like an all time great, like he did in game 2.

lebron was clearly the best player on the floor for the first two games, CLEARLY - you must be fooling yourself if you saiy " he hasn't been all that great in these finaLS " LOL dude has been dominating so far.

in what world is 27 pts 3.3 stls 7 rbs 4.3 asts on 60% shooting not great LOLOLOL

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-11-2014, 04:47 PM
For the thread question. Lebron should never have been in the finals in 07. That is not a compliment. It is not an insult. Any team that comes out of the east most of the last 15 years is equivalent to the tallest midget. That was one of the years. You cant hold it against him because if he was in the west they are out in round one and people don't hold that against you for some reason.

It will hurt him this year because that would be 2-2 with his super friends. And one shot away from being 1-3. And the one win against a team comprised of two 23 year olds and two 22 year olds. Who just like 23 year old Lebron in 07, weren't ready.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-11-2014, 04:50 PM
he also beat Dominique Wilkins in 86 who was one of the best players in the game, I just think Bird has accomplished a lot more beaten a lot better players than LeBron.

I cant agree with you there. Lebron is a much better player than Bird.

beliges
06-11-2014, 04:52 PM
Team success is absolutely tied into individual legacy. I'm not saying it shouldn't be. In the NBA one player can have a far greater impact on a team than one player can in baseball, football or hockey.


But merely going "3 rings > 2 rings therefore this player is better than that player" is lazy and missing tremendous amounts of important context.

No but what exactly makes Lebron better than Bird for example? Or what makes him in the op 5 of all time. Its all about winning. The greatests have all won and won and won and won. Especially now that Lebron has a great team, he will solely be judged by winning. Thats it. Guys like Magic and Duncan and Bird were all able to win more than Lebron has. What makes Lebron better than them? I mean to me some people have already crowned Lebron on the Mt. Rushmore of the NBA. But there have been quite a few NBA players who have played at a higher level than Lebron on the biggest of all stages, leading their teams to far more success than Lebron has thus far in his career. You cannot have it both ways. Points per game, rebounds per game and assists per game do not define greatness. Winning does.

TheIlladelph16
06-11-2014, 04:57 PM
Its not about how they perform, its about the talent level. Sorry but a team with Wade, Bosh, Lebron, Ray Allen, and the rest of their role players is as stacked as almost any other team to date. So yes, talent wise, this Miami team stacks up against any other team in the history of the league. Certainly there no longer is the excuse that Lebron doesnt have the talent around him. He chose to go to Miami, to team up with Wade and Bosh, and now he needs to deliver if he wants to be up there with the Magics, Birds, Kobes, Duncans, Shaqs, etc...

Gaging talent level with zero context like you're doing is pointless. You do understand talent level declines as the player does right? 2014 Wade is not the same talent level as 2011 Wade let alone 2006 Wade. Same with Ray Allen who can't play a lick of defense anymore. Your assessment had massive flaws in it.

Their bench is complete garbage and one of their big three has been a no show for three straight playoffs now.

beliges
06-11-2014, 04:58 PM
lebron was clearly the best player on the floor for the first two games, CLEARLY - you must be fooling yourself if you saiy " he hasn't been all that great in these finaLS " LOL dude has been dominating so far.

in what world is 27 pts 3.3 stls 7 rbs 4.3 asts on 60% shooting not great LOLOLOL

Game 1 Lebron had 25pts, 6rbs, 3 ast and 4 TOs shooting 52%. Bosh had 18/9 shooting 64%, Duncan had 21/10 on 90% shooting. I think its a reach to say Lebron was clearly the best player in game 1. Certainly, game 2 was clear and game 3 was clear as well. But if Lebron wants to be as great as many claim he is, he needs to step up his game and be the best player on the floor night in and night out. That is what the all time greats do.

beliges
06-11-2014, 04:59 PM
Gaging talent level with zero context like you're doing is pointless. You do understand talent level declines as the player does right? 2014 Wade is not the same talent level as 2011 Wade let alone 2006 Wade. Same with Ray Allen who can't play a lick of defense anymore. Your assessment had massive flaws in it.

Their bench is complete garbage and one of their big three has been a no show for three straight playoffs now.

Nobody is claiming Wade is in his prime. Im just claiming Miami has more talent than probably any other team in the league. At least they are at the top of that list. How can you even argue otherwise.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-11-2014, 05:01 PM
Game 1 Lebron had 25pts, 6rbs, 3 ast and 4 TOs shooting 52%. Bosh had 18/9 shooting 64%, Duncan had 21/10 on 90% shooting. I think its a reach to say Lebron was clearly the best player in game 1. Certainly, game 2 was clear and game 3 was clear as well. But if Lebron wants to be as great as many claim he is, he needs to step up his game and be the best player on the floor night in and night out. That is what the all time greats do.

Uh, Lebron was not the best in game three. He had 7 turnovers. Shot well but so did Wade with his 6 turnovers. Leonard was the best player on the floor in game 3

TheIlladelph16
06-11-2014, 05:02 PM
Nobody is claiming Wade is in his prime. Im just claiming Miami has more talent than probably any other team in the league. At least they are at the top of that list. How can you even argue otherwise.

A large part of that is because they possess Lebron James. That Miami team is a middle of the pack team in the god awful east without him. I'm not trying to argue they aren't talented bc they are. But the phrase "most talented team in NBA history" is unsubstantiated bull. It ignores a massive amount of context and the fact that there's teams out west that are just as talented including the Spurs.

sammyvine
06-11-2014, 05:04 PM
no because he has 2 rings

beliges
06-11-2014, 05:35 PM
Uh, Lebron was not the best in game three. He had 7 turnovers. Shot well but so did Wade with his 6 turnovers. Leonard was the best player on the floor in game 3

I know I meant it was clear who the best player was. And most definitely Lebron stunk it up in game 3.

beliges
06-11-2014, 05:38 PM
A large part of that is because they possess Lebron James. That Miami team is a middle of the pack team in the god awful east without him. I'm not trying to argue they aren't talented bc they are. But the phrase "most talented team in NBA history" is unsubstantiated bull. It ignores a massive amount of context and the fact that there's teams out west that are just as talented including the Spurs.

Dude give me a break. I do not ever want to hear another word about Lebron's teammates. He freaking teamed up with Wade AND Bosh, and then got Ray Allen and a bunch of good to decent role players. Enough. Just freaking win. Thats all there is to it. If he loses, he will have a 2-3 Finals record and it will most certainly hurt his legacy badly. If he wins, he will 3-peat and will most certainly help his legacy tremendously. Thats all there is to it. Its the Finals. Lebron formed one of the most talented threesome in NBA history. Now its time to put up or shut up.

8kobe24
06-11-2014, 05:39 PM
The super team claimed to have not 1 not 2 not 3 not 4 not 5...etc. So anything short of what they are claiming in my opinion is a failure because they set the bar. A lot of heat fan sucklings forget that for the past 4 years, not only they had the big 3 but the best bench players as well, a bench that would be starters on any team. Lebron's individual accolades in the past cannot be tarnished by losing in the finals. But the so called legacy was tarnished to begin with when he chose to join forces with wade, bosh, and that bench that is stacked with players who took less money to win a championship.

ink
06-11-2014, 05:44 PM
The title of this thread disrespects the Spurs, who are a great opponent. Besides, the series is not over yet.

Acclaimed
06-11-2014, 05:47 PM
Does Lebron magically turn 40 if he loses in the finals?

WadeKobe
06-11-2014, 06:00 PM
Dude give me a break. I do not ever want to hear another word about Lebron's teammates. He freaking teamed up with Wade AND Bosh, and then got Ray Allen and a bunch of good to decent role players. Enough. Just freaking win. Thats all there is to it. If he loses, he will have a 2-3 Finals record and it will most certainly hurt his legacy badly. If he wins, he will 3-peat and will most certainly help his legacy tremendously. Thats all there is to it. Its the Finals. Lebron formed one of the most talented threesome in NBA history. Now its time to put up or shut up.

You ignored that whole thing where the Spurs are the better/more talented team.

beliges
06-11-2014, 06:07 PM
You ignored that whole thing where the Spurs are the better/more talented team.

Spurs are a great great team with a great great coach, and an all time great player in Duncan. The Heat are every bit as good and every bit as talented I would say. Its just that if Lebron gets outplayed throughout the majority of the series, the Heat will not win. This is where Lebron needs to step up his game. This Heat team is an all time talented team. Its not over yet and it would not surprise me if the Heat come back and win this thing. However, if Lebron cannot get it done, it will hurt his legacy. Thats all.

Acclaimed
06-11-2014, 06:13 PM
The title of this thread disrespects the Spurs, who are a great opponent. Besides, the series is not over yet.

Exactly. Like Tim Duncan is going down as some scrub. What we should be talking about is what DOES it do for his legacy.

What about Pop. What about Parker. What about Ginobli. What about Kawhi? I mean either way Spurs fans will be able to hold their head high, but come on. There's some real talent. And Kawhi might be a superstar in a couple years.

It seems like people here have agenda's and that needs to be "filtered out" if you know what I mean. His legacy starts after he retires. So unless anyone thinks he's retiring if he loses the finals this thread should be closed IMO.

Bruno
06-11-2014, 06:18 PM
Uh, Lebron was not the best in game three. He had 7 turnovers. Shot well but so did Wade with his 6 turnovers. Leonard was the best player on the floor in game 3

that plays a big role. Miami has zero chance if LBJ isn't the best player on the floor every game.

naps
06-11-2014, 06:20 PM
People keep saying this, yet I'm convinced everyone who does hasn't watched the Miami Heat this year and a big chunk of last year. Maybe in Year 1 you can argue that was the case, but now? That supporting cast outside of Bosh, a hobbled and bottoming out Wade, and Ray "Only Shoots Threes" Allen, who honestly thinks they are that good?

Bosh is the only one I would argue is an all-star at this point in his career, yet I'm supposed to just listen to the narrative that he's got the most stacked team in the history of the game? It's bull****.

If you have not noticed, it's always those 5/6 kobephiles who says this stuff "Heat are the most stacked team in NBA history." If the Heat wins they will say "So what? They were supposed to win," and if the Heat lose they will say "Kobe got 5 ringzz, LeBron didn't win with the greatest team ever so Kobe is better." Win win for them you know. It always baffles me as to why kobephiles think Kobe and LeBron are comparable.

beliges
06-11-2014, 06:33 PM
If you have not noticed, it's always those 5/6 kobephiles who says this stuff "Heat are the most stacked team in NBA history." If the Heat wins they will say "So what? They were supposed to win," and if the Heat lose they will say "Kobe got 5 ringzz, LeBron didn't win with the greatest team ever so Kobe is better." Win win for them you know. It always baffles me as to why kobephiles think Kobe and LeBron are comparable.

LOL. Nobody is saying the Heat are the most talented team ever. However, they are clearly amongst one of the most talented teams ever, as is evidenced by 4 Finals in a row and 2 titles in that span. The reason this team was formed was so the players can win championships collectively. It was unprecedented for 3 superstars to all join together on the same team. It happened. This has NOTHING to do with Kobe or anyone else. Why bring him up, I am not sure. This is about Lebron and his place in the history of the game. If Lebron wants to have that kind of status, he needs to win titles. Having a 2-3 record in the Finals is something that will hurt him tremendously. Im not sure how anyone can disagree with that?

Tony_Starks
06-11-2014, 06:51 PM
-Is it still ok to wait until Lebron is at least like close to the end of his career to judge him?

-is it ok for corny people that just want to discredit great players to stop trolling?

-is it ok to even enjoy these Finals without prejudice? Like just enjoy good basketball?


Maybe not....

naps
06-11-2014, 06:54 PM
LOL. Nobody is saying the Heat are the most talented team ever. However, they are clearly amongst one of the most talented teams ever, as is evidenced by 4 Finals in a row and 2 titles in that span. The reason this team was formed was so the players can win championships collectively. It was unprecedented for 3 superstars to all join together on the same team. It happened. This has NOTHING to do with Kobe or anyone else. Why bring him up, I am not sure. This is about Lebron and his place in the history of the game. If Lebron wants to have that kind of status, he needs to win titles. Having a 2-3 record in the Finals is something that will hurt him tremendously. Im not sure how anyone can disagree with that?


What is your point with this "He joined 2 superstars" in pretty much every single post? What was he supposed to do? Rot in Cleveland with Mo freakin williams as his second best player? Maybe if he had a prime Shaq for 8 years to ride he wouldn't leave, what do you think?
All the greats won with great teams. Everyone had elite elite help. I don't understand why only LeBron should be at fault for playing with great players.
And if you are just going by ringzzz and not taking contexts then hell Bill Russell should be greatest of all time. Russell won 11 out of 13 tries, so he actually deserves from 1 to 10 all positions all time. Let's put someone like Jordan or Hevlicek at 11.

RaiderLakersA's
06-11-2014, 06:55 PM
Yes, it would affect his legacy, but let's not pretend that the Heat can't return to the Finals again next year for another shot at a title. I don't see any team challenging them in the East, really.

beliges
06-11-2014, 07:04 PM
What is your point with this "He joined 2 superstars" in pretty much every single post? What was he supposed to do? Rot in Cleveland with Mo freakin williams as his second best player? Maybe if he had a prime Shaq for 8 years to ride he wouldn't leave, what do you think?
All the greats won with great teams. Everyone had elite elite help. I don't understand why only LeBron should be at fault for playing with great players.
And if you are just going by ringzzz and not taking contexts then hell Bill Russell should be greatest of all time. Russell won 11 out of 13 tries, so he actually deserves from 1 to 10 all positions all time. Let's put someone like Jordan or Hevlicek at 11.

My point is anything short of a championship is a failure on his part. He no longer has the cushion of the excuse that his teammates were no good. He is surrounded by hall of famers now. What is your point of Lebron can never do any wrong? When you play on a team where championships are guaranteed based on the talent around you, you are held to a high standard, especially when people are making you out to be one of the greatests of all greats to play the game. Look you cannot have it both ways. If you want Lebron compared to Magic, Bird, MJ and Kobe, he needs to succeed like them. A loss in these finals is a major stey in the opposite direction. If you dont want Lebron compared to those guys, then stop comparing him. With greatness comes great responsibility.

Leftcoast_yg
06-11-2014, 07:13 PM
Probably not as much as his hair line

WadeKobe
06-11-2014, 07:16 PM
My point is anything short of a championship is a failure on his part. He no longer has the cushion of the excuse that his teammates were no good. He is surrounded by hall of famers now. What is your point of Lebron can never do any wrong? When you play on a team where championships are guaranteed based on the talent around you, you are held to a high standard, especially when people are making you out to be one of the greatests of all greats to play the game. Look you cannot have it both ways. If you want Lebron compared to Magic, Bird, MJ and Kobe, he needs to succeed like them. A loss in these finals is a major stey in the opposite direction. If you dont want Lebron compared to those guys, then stop comparing him. With greatness comes great responsibility.

(1) great players on great teams lose to greater teams. It's a thing that happens.

(2) why does everyone include Kobe with MJ, Bird, and Magic? He doesn belong.

beliges
06-11-2014, 07:20 PM
(1) great players on great teams lose to greater teams. It's a thing that happens.

(2) why does everyone include Kobe with MJ, Bird, and Magic? He doesn belong.

Because those guys mentioned are the ones Lebron is chasing. The perimeter players above him on the ladder of greatness.

Also I would not call the Spurs a "greater" team than the Heat. Both are equally talented with HOF players and great role players. Its just, like I said, if you are proclaimed to be one of the greatest players to have ever played the game, you are expected to out-perform all players, on the biggest stage. This is where legacies are made and defined.

I fully expect Lebron to step up and make it a series in game 4. Thats what legends do.

TheMightyHumph
06-11-2014, 07:23 PM
How will it`s affect`s his all time ranking and standing if he loses the Finals again? Can he win again and can he still be a top 5 player of all time recognized as a a great>?

Do you guys ever talk actual NBA basketball?

SirSkyHook
06-11-2014, 07:26 PM
My point is anything short of a championship is a failure on his part. He no longer has the cushion of the excuse that his teammates were no good. He is surrounded by hall of famers now. What is your point of Lebron can never do any wrong? When you play on a team where championships are guaranteed based on the talent around you, you are held to a high standard, especially when people are making you out to be one of the greatests of all greats to play the game. Look you cannot have it both ways. If you want Lebron compared to Magic, Bird, MJ and Kobe, he needs to succeed like them. A loss in these finals is a major stey in the opposite direction. If you dont want Lebron compared to those guys, then stop comparing him. With greatness comes great responsibility.

and he plays in the EAST!!!!! You cant be considered the best player on the planet, (and in many minds its not even close) than join a team with two franchise players and now the greatest three point shooter in league history, and play in the weakest conference in your league, and STILL have the excuse it's his teammates! What if Duncan, T-Mac, Garnet, Iverson, Hell or even J Kidd, or Dirk have joined with Kobe and Shaq in the WEST, and later have Reggie Miller at the end of his career join them and they went 2-2 in the Finals? How would that team be looked at? Hell Shaq nor Kobe would be in the conversation with Jordan lol. They get killed for losing to the Pistons in 04 because of the names on the roster. Even though Shaq was always hurt, Malone was injured during the Finals, and GP was to old to hang with Billups.

Oh but LeBron gets a pass!!! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Mell413
06-11-2014, 07:33 PM
I wouldn't say it would be ruined with a loss, but it would take a hit. Not saying that should be the case, but I think it would happen. Unless he flops I can't see a loss affecting the way I view him.

Sly Guy
06-11-2014, 07:36 PM
no because he's already trying to 3-peat.

L8kers4life
06-11-2014, 07:44 PM
I agree but he's been there more times than Kobe and mj by age 30. He's only down 2-1 this series. And as
MAnRam, said in 07 he made it on a crap team and ppl hold that against him. It should be a celebration of his greatness because nor mike kobe magic Shaq, no one else did that that I can think of this second. If Miami loses it should fall on Wade's door step if anything. He's the one not rising up. But he's always excused for a title he won 9 years ago on a team better this this heat regime.

Kobe went 4 times to the finals before the age of 30 and was 3-1 in those finals, but much of that had to do with the teammates kobe had and not so much from kobe himself.

L8kers4life
06-11-2014, 07:48 PM
why not kobe won 3 like that.

Man your a kobe hater for sure kobe was 1b to shaq, and averaged 26, 6 and 6 as number 2, they were both dominate

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-11-2014, 07:53 PM
Kobe went 4 times to the finals before the age of 30 and was 3-1 in those finals, but much of that had to do with the teammates kobe had and not so much from kobe himself.

Huh? Actually no. Kobe had been to the finals 6 times by 30 and was 4-2

beliges
06-11-2014, 07:55 PM
and he plays in the EAST!!!!! You cant be considered the best player on the planet, (and in many minds its not even close) than join a team with two franchise players and now the greatest three point shooter in league history, and play in the weakest conference in your league, and STILL have the excuse it's his teammates! What if Duncan, T-Mac, Garnet, Iverson, Hell or even J Kidd, or Dirk have joined with Kobe and Shaq in the WEST, and later have Reggie Miller at the end of his career join them and they went 2-2 in the Finals? How would that team be looked at? Hell Shaq nor Kobe would be in the conversation with Jordan lol. They get killed for losing to the Pistons in 04 because of the names on the roster. Even though Shaq was always hurt, Malone was injured during the Finals, and GP was to old to hang with Billups.

Oh but LeBron gets a pass!!! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Lets not kid ourselves. Lebron IS the best player in the world. But, his place in history is yet to be determined, and going 2-2 in the FInals with this Miami team will certainly hurt his overall legacy. Thats all. People are making excuses for him still. But the fact of the matter is, if he wins, he can cement himself as one of the all time greats, 3-peating. If he loses, he will have a ways to go to prove himself worthy of being in the same realm as the handful of perimeter players he is chasing.

Chronz
06-11-2014, 08:07 PM
Losses hurt, winning helps. Pretty straight forward no?

L8kers4life
06-11-2014, 08:14 PM
If you have not noticed, it's always those 5/6 kobephiles who says this stuff "Heat are the most stacked team in NBA




history." If the Heat wins they will say "So what? They were supposed to win," and if the Heat lose they will say "Kobe got 5 ringzz, LeBron didn't win with the greatest team ever so Kobe is better." Win win for them you know. It always baffles me as to why kobephiles think Kobe and LeBron are comparable.

Im a kobe fan, and I do not say kobe is Bette than lebron, I say he is not at that level yet, but I have gone on record several times that lebron will go down as the second best player ever behind MJ.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-11-2014, 08:17 PM
If you have not noticed, it's always those 5/6 kobephiles who says this stuff "Heat are the most stacked team in NBA history." If the Heat wins they will say "So what? They were supposed to win," and if the Heat lose they will say "Kobe got 5 ringzz, LeBron didn't win with the greatest team ever so Kobe is better." Win win for them you know. It always baffles me as to why kobephiles think Kobe and LeBron are comparable.
Im not sure what is worse? To be a Kobephile, or a Leb1tch? To be or not to be.... that is the question.

Pablonovi
06-11-2014, 08:38 PM
Losses hurt, winning helps. Pretty straight forward no?

Hey High Horse,
Seems pretty straight forward.

But, just making the Finals (including the very rare 4 years in a row) does count for a lot, even if you lose.
Jerry West is an All-Time Top 15er (in my and most people's books). He won only 1 Chip; but made 9 Finals - so losing 8 Finals HELPS him more than if he had only made that one Finals he won, no?

Pablonovi
06-11-2014, 08:40 PM
Im a kobe fan, and I do not say kobe is Bette than lebron, I say he is not at that level yet, but I have gone on record several times that lebron will go down as the second best player ever behind MJ.

Hey L8kers4life,
I love Kobe WAY more than LeBron. but ...
I've got:
GOAT All-Time Top 10:
#5 LeBron
#6-9 Kobe (along with Shaq, TD and maybe Hakeem)

Acclaimed
06-11-2014, 08:50 PM
Im not sure what is worse? To be a Kobephile, or a Leb1tch? To be or not to be.... that is the question.

I think you all are basically little kids for making up names for each other.

Acclaimed
06-11-2014, 08:51 PM
Can the MODS do something about this please? I feel like I'm at recess or something.

Acclaimed
06-11-2014, 08:53 PM
Having bad series don't make you a bad player. Lebron ****ed up in Dallas. No denying that. But Kobe ****ed up in Detroit. And Magic ****ed up in Boston. It happens. Lebron is the best basketball player on earth right now, and Kobe isn't even relevant so I don't know why he's in the conversation. Ya'll look like a bunch of monkeys throwing **** at each other.

Acclaimed
06-12-2014, 09:58 AM
****ing right. And you're all grounded

hail2skins4life
06-12-2014, 11:06 AM
LeBron disappears. That is why he will never be the greatest of all time. Sure he has had many signature playoff performances, like game 2 of this years finals, game 6 of 2012 ECF, and game 5 of 2007 ECF. The problem is he doesn't follow up with those great performances. I mean how do you go into San Antonio in game 2 and completely take over in the 3rd quarter to score 35 points, only to follow it up in game 3 with just 8 points thru the last 3 quarters? That is not all time great material people. Credit Kahwi's defense, but we are talking about the greatest player on the planet. Not acceptable. That would never happen with Kobe.

I think a finals loss this year all but guarantees that LeBron will not be able to top Jordan. I mean going 2 for 4 in the finals with this super team would be really unimpressive. And don't try to say Wade is declining and Bosh isn't ****. Bosh is a HOF caliber PF. If you fail to see that then you should be discredited. Wade may seem like he is on the decline in the regular season, but when it comes playoff time, he is Dwyane Wade.

LeBron may be one of the most dominant and unguardable players we ever see. But if he can't translate that into a lot of rings then he does not belong on Rushmore in my opinion.

RaiderLakersA's
06-12-2014, 11:57 AM
Losses hurt, winning helps. Pretty straight forward no?

Unless you're Bill Russell. Then it becomes a matter of giving more credit to the era, to the organization, to the social climate, to other teammates, to the dirth of competition, etc., etc., than to the man himself.

Pablonovi
06-12-2014, 08:08 PM
Having bad series don't make you a bad player. Lebron ****ed up in Dallas. No denying that. But Kobe ****ed up in Detroit. And Magic ****ed up in Boston. It happens. Lebron is the best basketball player on earth right now, and Kobe isn't even relevant so I don't know why he's in the conversation. Ya'll look like a bunch of monkeys throwing **** at each other.

Hey Acclaimed,
I did try to suggest you tone down your aggressive put-downs of other posters. (Can't remember if it was in a post or a PM.) Next time, perhaps, you can try to be a bit less arrogant and antagonistic to those who don't agree with your own opinions?

Pablonovi
06-12-2014, 08:46 PM
LeBron disappears. That is why he will never be the greatest of all time. Sure he has had many signature playoff performances, like game 2 of this years finals, game 6 of 2012 ECF, and game 5 of 2007 ECF. The problem is he doesn't follow up with those great performances. I mean how do you go into San Antonio in game 2 and completely take over in the 3rd quarter to score 35 points, only to follow it up in game 3 with just 8 points thru the last 3 quarters? That is not all time great material people. Credit Kahwi's defense, but we are talking about the greatest player on the planet. Not acceptable. That would never happen with Kobe.

I think a finals loss this year all but guarantees that LeBron will not be able to top Jordan. I mean going 2 for 4 in the finals with this super team would be really unimpressive. And don't try to say Wade is declining and Bosh isn't ****. Bosh is a HOF caliber PF. If you fail to see that then you should be discredited. Wade may seem like he is on the decline in the regular season, but when it comes playoff time, he is Dwyane Wade.

LeBron may be one of the most dominant and unguardable players we ever see. But if he can't translate that into a lot of rings then he does not belong on Rushmore in my opinion.

Hey hail2skins4life,
1) Every GOAT Top 10 player has "disappeared"; has had terrible games; even bad series. Kobe did too (and I love Kobe). Most people know this EXCEPT when it involves a player they either greatly like or greatly dis-like - then in comes the "damn the objective facts" approach, the "blinded by personal bias" approach.

How can you possibly say that the following two things:
2) Bosh is RIGHT NOW playing like a HOF player (much less a PF - he's the Center on this team!)? Bosh is NOT in any way shape of form the 2nd best player in this series. TD, TP & Gino Manuevability are all outplaying him.

3) "comes playoff time, he is Dwyane Wade". He's playing terribly this series. What you haven't noticed or don't want to admit it? He's getting perma-burned on D! And his O is inconsistent (sometimes he kills the ball movement too).

4) Almost everybody has Wilt in their NBA All-Time GOAT Top 5, yet he only won 2 Chips (and lost in 5 other Finals). So, either you're saying that Wilt doesn't belong on Mt. Rushmore; or else you're being totally & negatively selective AGAINST LeBron.

Jamiecballer
06-12-2014, 09:20 PM
How will it`s affect`s his all time ranking and standing if he loses the Finals again? Can he win again and can he still be a top 5 player of all time recognized as a a great>?
only fools place such high importance on rings or finals records. to those people I'm sure it will be pretty damaging.

Hotone1401
06-12-2014, 11:19 PM
only fools place such high importance on rings or finals records. to those people I'm sure it will be pretty damaging.

Lebron apologists are going to be in full effect.

Hotone1401
06-12-2014, 11:21 PM
only fools place such high importance on rings or finals records. to those people I'm sure it will be pretty damaging.

I guess we should all put more value into meaningless regular season games.

ManRam
06-12-2014, 11:27 PM
Lebron apologists are going to be in full effect.

What's worse, an apologist or a hater?

Hotone1401
06-12-2014, 11:27 PM
No, are you ********? Lebron will always be the backseat to Norris Cole, the man that keeps lebron on his feet. Without Norris Cole they wouldn't of even made it to this point, so in summary: Lebron wont lose or gain anything after this, more like the headline will be this: "Norris Cole needs more minutes?"

Your post makes no sense.

Hotone1401
06-12-2014, 11:28 PM
What's worse, an apologist or a hater?

Apologists for sure. I'm no hater. I'm just bracing myself for the onslaught of excuses from Heat and Lebron fans.

AssistantCoach
06-12-2014, 11:34 PM
Lebron didn't disappear his team did.

Avenged
06-12-2014, 11:34 PM
I'd say it takes a hit. Not ruined.

cssdmark
06-12-2014, 11:43 PM
Definitely takes a hit. You assemble the best player in basketball with two all stars to guarantee yourself championships then you go 2 and 2 in your quest. Big hit. Imagine if Jordan recruited Barkley and Ewing to the Bulls they would have been 6-0 in championships, oh they were and Jordan did not recruit them. Maybe they need 4 all stars on their team, time to bring in Melo.

kingkenny01
06-12-2014, 11:52 PM
If lebron gets six finals MVPs and six championships than he is equal to Jordan if he doesn't win six championships and six finals MVPs than he isn't. Jordan lost in the playoffs before it doesn't mean anything if lebron loses

beliges
06-12-2014, 11:56 PM
If lebron gets six finals MVPs and six championships than he is equal to Jordan if he doesn't win six championships and six finals MVPs than he isn't. Jordan lost in the playoffs before it doesn't mean anything if lebron loses

It means a lot if LeBron loses two finals on this team. Sorry but with teaming up with two other superstars and eventually ray allen comes added pressure to win. LeBron is supposed to be so great and yet he fails on the biggest stage time and time again. Just as he got praised for winning titles he deserves the criticism for failing in the finaks.

jerellh528
06-12-2014, 11:57 PM
Well yeah, he'd be 2-5, should've been 1-5

cssdmark
06-12-2014, 11:57 PM
I don't believe you, the Heat need more All Stars, maybe if they sign Melo and Love and everyone takes 8 million a year they can win not three, not four, not five but six.

Teeboy1487
06-13-2014, 12:02 AM
I'm not going to sugar coat it. It will taint it somewhat especially considering the talent of his team. However, he has more than enough years left to make up for it if they ultimately lose to the Spurs.

koreancabbage
06-13-2014, 12:03 AM
Well yeah, he'd be 2-5, should've been 1-5

there is no such thing as "should've been 1-5" if he isn't. Some could say he should've been 5-5. It is what it is.

Lebron will be in for a long offseason and upcoming season of criticism if he and his teammates lose this series.

cssdmark
06-13-2014, 12:07 AM
In all seriousness, this losing is a good thing, this superstar teams need to stop. One of those players needs to leave and then use the money to fill out the roster properly. It is like when your kids and choosing teams for a basketball game if all the best players are on one team how fun and how fair is that? How challenging is it and how gratifying is it if the deck is stacked in your favor. I do not hate Lebron I actually like Lebron, Wade and Bosh but I do not like the Heat.

Bulls_fan90
06-13-2014, 12:08 AM
How many times did Jordan lose in the finals?

mngopher35
06-13-2014, 12:10 AM
lol and people here were actually saying they were going overboard on Durant earlier this post season. Lebron doesn't even play bad and his legacy will now be ruined haha. It will hurt him in the sense that he loses the opportunity to move up with a win and gets a bump for the loss. It won't damage his legacy a ton though, it doesn't somehow take away what he has done. If he goes on to never win another title but plays well for a few more years he will likely be in a majority of top 10 lists (already is in a lot).

It makes his path to the top 5 and beyond harder, that's the biggest issue for him legacy wise imo.

koreancabbage
06-13-2014, 12:10 AM
I don't believe you, the Heat need more All Stars, maybe if they sign Melo and Love and everyone takes 8 million a year they can win not three, not four, not five but six.

They need better big men, not Bosh. Bosh just sucks in this system.

Because they lack size, they double team much more than neeed, down low, and playing defensively sound basketball for 4 years straight into the Finals can wear and tear you for that type of system (maximum rotation on three point shooters) - its fundamentally flawed system because they overhelp a lot in their rotations.

Against a great passing team like the spurs, this is gonna spell disaster.

sportsfan222
06-13-2014, 12:13 AM
the truth is, lebron has only had 1 incredible finals, that being in 2012 vs the thunder.

he was awesome game 7 last year, but we all know the heat won last year more so due to the spurs choking the series away in game 6.

james is still and all time great and i dont think his legacy is effected really, but in the finals, hes been underachieving.

he gets a pass for 2007 vs the spurs, but vs dallas and this series vs the spurs, unacceptable as the best player in the world.

beliges
06-13-2014, 12:13 AM
lol and people here were actually saying they were going overboard on Durant earlier this post season. Lebron doesn't even play bad and his legacy will now be ruined haha. It will hurt him in the sense that he loses the opportunity to move up with a win and gets a bump for the loss. It won't damage his legacy a ton though, it doesn't somehow take away what he has done. If he goes on to never win another title but plays well for a few more years he will likely be in a majority of top 10 lists (already is in a lot).

It makes his path to the top 5 and beyond harder, that's the biggest issue for him legacy wise imo.

Bro top 5? Sorry you can't make the top 5 with a 2-3 record in the finals. LeBronS got a few titles to go before getting near the top 5. Enough with these lebron top 5 non sense.

cssdmark
06-13-2014, 12:14 AM
If lebron gets six finals MVPs and six championships than he is equal to Jordan if he doesn't win six championships and six finals MVPs than he isn't. Jordan lost in the playoffs before it doesn't mean anything if lebron loses
No he is not, Jordan was 6-0, Lebron would be 6-3 and again Lebron had two team up with two other all stars. Lebron is a great player but he is not Jordan. As Jordan said I did not want to play with the best I wanted to beat them. That says it all.

kblo247
06-13-2014, 12:14 AM
Bron's 4th quarter stats this series:

GM 1: 2 points, 1-3 fg, 0-0 3pt, 0-0 ft
GM 2: 8 points, 2-4 fg, 1-1 3pt, 3-4 ft
GM 3: 4 points, 2-4 fg, 0-1 3pt, 0-0 ft
GM 4: 0 points, 0-2 fg, 0-2 3pt, 0-0 ft

AVG: 3.5 ppg, 38.4 fg%, 25.0 3pt%, 75.0 ft%

Come the **** on guys, I don't want to hear any bs excuses

kblo247
06-13-2014, 12:15 AM
there is no such thing as "should've been 1-5" if he isn't. Some could say he should've been 5-5. It is what it is.

Lebron will be in for a long offseason and upcoming season of criticism if he and his teammates lose this series.

Guessing he means because Ray was out of bounds and that 3 shouldn't have ever counted

SanAntonioSpurs23
06-13-2014, 12:15 AM
I never thought of him being on Jordans level, but if he does lose the finals you can slam that door shut.

mngopher35
06-13-2014, 12:18 AM
Bro top 5? Sorry you can't make the top 5 with a 2-3 record in the finals. LeBronS got a few titles to go before getting near the top 5. Enough with these lebron top 5 non sense.

Ya, but lets say he wins 2/3 moving forward and ends up 4-4 in finals. Or even 1 more next year with an mvp and then has a prolonged career. There are definitely still ways for him to get there which is why I said a loss will make his path harder. Not sure why I am not allowed to have the opinion he may get there one day, I think it is ridiculous to think a loss here ruins his legacy...

beliges
06-13-2014, 12:19 AM
Bron's 4th quarter stats this series:

GM 1: 2 points, 1-3 fg, 0-0 3pt, 0-0 ft
GM 2: 8 points, 2-4 fg, 1-1 3pt, 3-4 ft
GM 3: 4 points, 2-4 fg, 0-1 3pt, 0-0 ft
GM 4: 0 points, 0-2 fg, 0-2 3pt, 0-0 ft

AVG: 3.5 ppg, 38.4 fg%, 25.0 3pt%, 75.0 ft%

Come the **** on guys, I don't want to hear any bs excuses

Wow! Deja vu? That is unbelievable as to how much he has shrunk.

Hotone1401
06-13-2014, 12:20 AM
Bron's 4th quarter stats this series:

GM 1: 2 points, 1-3 fg, 0-0 3pt, 0-0 ft
GM 2: 8 points, 2-4 fg, 1-1 3pt, 3-4 ft
GM 3: 4 points, 2-4 fg, 0-1 3pt, 0-0 ft
GM 4: 0 points, 0-2 fg, 0-2 3pt, 0-0 ft

AVG: 3.5 ppg, 38.4 fg%, 25.0 3pt%, 75.0 ft%

Come the **** on guys, I don't want to hear any bs excuses

Wow, I had no idea. That's pretty bad.

blue bleeder09
06-13-2014, 12:23 AM
News flash people he isn't MJ or Kobe !

And please can we STOP with ALL the F ing Lebrun threads

Hotone1401
06-13-2014, 12:23 AM
Ya, but lets say he wins 2/3 moving forward and ends up 4-4 in finals. Or even 1 more next year with an mvp and then has a prolonged career. There are definitely still ways for him to get there which is why I said a loss will make his path harder. Not sure why I am not allowed to have the opinion he may get there one day, I think it is ridiculous to think a loss here ruins his legacy...

I don't think Lebron can do anything to ruin his legacy. He is pretty much what I and most non-Heat fans thought he was. A tremendous athlete for sure. It may have hurt him a bit though. I've already been on record as saying he would be vaulted into my top 5 all-time with a 3-peat. Without it, I don't see how anybody could really put him into that group, especially when you consider all the lengths to which he went to to join two superstars and deplete the East of any competition and guaranteeing himself a seat in the finals every year.

Yeah, it's bad.

Mell413
06-13-2014, 12:25 AM
Didn't LeBron miss half the 4th quarter in game 1? That will certainly affect the numbers. Why do the numbers in the 4th count more than other quarters?

jerellh528
06-13-2014, 12:26 AM
Bron's 4th quarter stats this series:

GM 1: 2 points, 1-3 fg, 0-0 3pt, 0-0 ft
GM 2: 8 points, 2-4 fg, 1-1 3pt, 3-4 ft
GM 3: 4 points, 2-4 fg, 0-1 3pt, 0-0 ft
GM 4: 0 points, 0-2 fg, 0-2 3pt, 0-0 ft

AVG: 3.5 ppg, 38.4 fg%, 25.0 3pt%, 75.0 ft%

Come the **** on guys, I don't want to hear any bs excuses

Really?? Damn. Same old Lebron. I had no clue it was this bad though.

jerellh528
06-13-2014, 12:28 AM
Didn't LeBron miss half the 4th quarter in game 1? That will certainly affect the numbers. Why do the numbers in the 4th count more than other quarters?

Because the 4th is crunch time and where lbj is known to disappear

Hotone1401
06-13-2014, 12:28 AM
Didn't LeBron miss half the 4th quarter in game 1? That will certainly affect the numbers. Why do the numbers in the 4th count more than other quarters?

Because 4th quarters are usually the time superstars take on the responsibility to help their team win. I don't think it says much about Lebron. He's always been this way. I think we should be giving the Spurs more credit. They just have Lebron's number when it comes to containing him. The only player that really has owned the Spurs during there long run of dominance is Kobe. Really can't expect everyone to live up to that.

McPeak92
06-13-2014, 12:30 AM
Didn't LeBron miss half the 4th quarter in game 1? That will certainly affect the numbers. Why do the numbers in the 4th count more than other quarters? You mean when the game is on the line? Why do people focus on performance in crunch time? hmmm....

mngopher35
06-13-2014, 12:31 AM
I don't think Lebron can do anything to ruin his legacy. He is pretty much what I and most non-Heat fans thought he was. A tremendous athlete for sure. It may have hurt him a bit though. I've already been on record as saying he would be vaulted into my top 5 all-time with a 3-peat. Without it, I don't see how anybody could really put him into that group.

Not right now, but he still has multiple years left to win more rings as a top player. If a win vaults him into the top 5 then another mvp and ring next year should do the same right? I'm saying that this hurts because like you said a 3-peat would have been big for him. Now he has more work to do (than he would with a win) moving forward if he wants to get to that top 5 level is my point.

Avenged
06-13-2014, 12:34 AM
Bron's 4th quarter stats this series:

GM 1: 2 points, 1-3 fg, 0-0 3pt, 0-0 ft
GM 2: 8 points, 2-4 fg, 1-1 3pt, 3-4 ft
GM 3: 4 points, 2-4 fg, 0-1 3pt, 0-0 ft
GM 4: 0 points, 0-2 fg, 0-2 3pt, 0-0 ft

AVG: 3.5 ppg, 38.4 fg%, 25.0 3pt%, 75.0 ft%

Come the **** on guys, I don't want to hear any bs excuses

Taking your word for it. Missed you buddy. We really need more of these random stats you provide

Hotone1401
06-13-2014, 12:36 AM
Not right now, but he still has multiple years left to win more rings as a top player. If a win vaults him into the top 5 then another mvp and ring next year should do the same right? I'm saying that this hurts because like you said a 3-peat would have been big for him. Now he has more work to do (than he would with a win) moving forward if he wants to get to that top 5 level is my point.

Oh okay I get what you're saying now and I agree so long as he doesn't leave Miami to create another super team because that would be something I could NOT look pass. Lebron will have plenty of more opportunities for sure. The Heat still have a guaranteed seat in the finals for the next 5 years I think the way the East is playing out.

JordansBulls
06-13-2014, 12:43 AM
I don't get this thread, he certainly can be a top 5 player all time no matter if he loses this finals. Some people just want more for some reason.

Tony_Starks
06-13-2014, 12:46 AM
Duncan just passed Magic Johnson for most playoff double doubles and is about to grab ring 5, 2 of which at Lebrons expense.

The more realistic question is what will it take for him to catch Timmy, forget about the other guys....

FOXHOUND
06-13-2014, 12:49 AM
I don't get this thread, he certainly can be a top 5 player all time no matter if he loses this finals. Some people just want more for some reason.

Absolutely, as Magic was 5-4 in the Finals and Kareem was 6-4 and they are certainly top 5 players of all time. It can be a blemish though, and ultimately it means he'll have to do a bit more to overcome that. At the end of the day it's better to lose in the Finals than any other time so it's not the worst thing in the world.

kblo247
06-13-2014, 01:06 AM
Taking your word for it. Missed you buddy. We really need more of these random stats you provide

Lol, I been lurking, just waiting and waiting ... Want to see how it all plays out; last thing I posted I believe was that Love was a loser anyhow,

Last threesomes to complete the 3 peat finals numbers

Shaq - Kobe - Fish
36.3 pts, 12.3rebs, 3.8asts
26.8pts, 5.8rebs, 5.3asts
12.8pts, 3.5rebs, 3.8asts

MJ - Scottie - Kukoc
33.5pts, 4rebs, 2.3asts
15.7pts, 6.8rebs, 4.8asts
15.2pts, 4.7rebs, 2.7asts

Let's see how Miami compares to these cats who finished in 98 and 02

kblo247
06-13-2014, 01:08 AM
I'm going to say it, I think LeBron has the talent if he tried to impose himself to still have pulled a West and been the finals MVP even if Miami lost. He's just not went all out and Leonard's outplayed him these past couple games. Its nothing like even. Kobe vs Boston, where before game 7 it even came out Bill Simmons mouth that Kobe should be finals MVP even if he lost. Brons just entered **** it mode too much for my liking, and I don't like Bron, but I keep leaving each game saying damn Westbrook tried harder

Bozeman
06-13-2014, 01:11 AM
He doesn't have enough help now? :eyebrow:

LakersEaglesLA
06-13-2014, 03:29 AM
Already is?
That sounds uneducated!

TheSportMessiah
06-13-2014, 03:42 AM
Still an all time great player...but i take MJ and Kobe ahead of him no doubt. LeBron is an immensely talented player and is such a freak athletically but he doesn't have the killer instinct like MJ and Kobe in my opinion. Those 4th quarter stats that someone posted proves my point to an extent. I am not saying LeBron doesn't have a killer instinct but he doesn't have it in a sense that no matter what he will not allow his team to lose. Since he was in Cleveland there have been a lot of times that he has faded in big moments/games. When his team needs him to be the all time great player that he is, sometimes he just doesn't show up. That is my main problem with LeBron and his legacy going forward. 2/5 in the finals also isn't very good. Especially since he is 2/4 when he has Wade and Bosh on his team. Jordan was 6/6 and legitimately had 12 chances to win the championship (not counting 85-86 or the two years with Washington when he was 38 & 39 after being retired for three years). So 6/6 in 12 years verses what is likely to be 2/5 in 11 years for LeBron just isn't great.

Bruno
06-13-2014, 04:49 AM
LBJs averaging 3.75 assists per game in the finals whats up with that, what are the Spurs doing?

LBJ would still have more time to win more titles.

Mell413
06-13-2014, 06:46 AM
If LeBron put up better 4th quarter stats in this series people would be saying he's padding his stats so he wouldn't win you over anyway. Plus he's missed a good portion of the 4th quarters due to the score or injury. Of course he's not going to have huge numbers. I think some are making way too much out of those numbers. LeBron should some killer instinct in the 3rd and they still lost the quarter.

Lo Porto
06-13-2014, 06:58 AM
Stop the Jordan comparisons. If the Sonics, Jazz or Suns would have played like the Spurs have played the last two games, the NBA would have just kept putting MJ to the free throw line until they came back in the series.

Part of 6-0 MJ was the NBA not letting him lose. The guy and the Bulls got every call. MJ averaged like 11 ft per game in Finals. LBJ can't get to the line at home. 3 ft game 3 with all that contact? 6 last night when he attacked so much? Hilarious.

The NBA needed Jordan to win for ratings and money. LBJ losing brings ratings and money. Stop comparing them. LBJ doesn't get the favors or the treatment.

Plus, SA is epic right now and the Heat just aren't that good.

sammyvine
06-13-2014, 06:58 AM
Lebron is a better player than Kobe but I much prefer Kobe
Even though he has had failiures the guy just balls and has that killer instinct you want athletes to have
I dont feel the same way with lebron

sammyvine
06-13-2014, 06:59 AM
Stop the Jordan comparisons. If the Sonics, Jazz or Suns would have played like the Spurs have played the last two games, the NBA would have just kept putting MJ to the free throw line until they came back in the series.

Part of 6-0 MJ was the NBA not letting him lose. The guy and the Bulls got every call. MJ averaged like 11 ft per game in Finals. LBJ can't get to the line at home. 3 ft game 3 with a that contact? Hilarious.

The NBA needed Jordan to win for ratings and money. LBJ losing brings ratings and money. Stop comparing them. LBJ doesn't get the favors or the treatment.

Plus, SA is epic right now and the Heat just aren't that good.

Lol spoken like a true lebron rider

R. Johnson#3
06-13-2014, 07:00 AM
Another finals loss or not. He will still probably go down as a top 5 player ever. Stop hating.

sammyvine
06-13-2014, 07:02 AM
Lebron is a better player than Kobe but I much prefer Kobe
Even though he has had failiures the guy just balls and has that killer instinct you want athletes to have
I dont feel the same way with lebron


Stop the Jordan comparisons. If the Sonics, Jazz or Suns would have played like the Spurs have played the last two games, the NBA would have just kept putting MJ to the free throw line until they came back in the series.

Part of 6-0 MJ was the NBA not letting him lose. The guy and the Bulls got every call. MJ averaged like 11 ft per game in Finals. LBJ can't get to the line at home. 3 ft game 3 with all that contact? 6 last night when he attacked so much? Hilarious.

The NBA needed Jordan to win for ratings and money. LBJ losing brings ratings and money. Stop comparing them. LBJ doesn't get the favors or the treatment.

Plus, SA is epic right now and the Heat just aren't that good.

The reason why he averaged more free throws was because he always attacked the basket and he was passive like lebron

the brave eagle
06-13-2014, 07:03 AM
no way, but it does make him look stupid when he said they were gonna win 8 finals in a row

Lo Porto
06-13-2014, 07:05 AM
Lol spoken like a true lebron rider

I just respect his game that's all. He makes the smart basketball play every time and works hard on D. And the guy plays through more hate than any athlete I've ever seen.

The funny thing is, he's still accomplished more at 29 than Jordan at 29. And if you don't see the greatness in how he plays, then you're just refusing to acknowledge a great player when you see one.

hidalgo
06-13-2014, 07:06 AM
it's not over yet, & i wouldn't be suprised if the Heat force a game 7. then who knows

but assuming the Spurs close them out it doesn't hurt LeBron much, because game 1 he had cramps & couldn't move to help them down the stretch of the game. game 2 he was great. games 3 & 4 the spurs as a whole were too good. blow outs not really on LeBron

LeBron's stats are solid & the 2 losses when he could finish the games, they were just getting pounded as a team

he'll win 2 more titles i bet, still 4 maybe 5 prime years left & i really think they'll march right through the east again next year to their 5th straight finals, & probably win it refocused from this bitter loss(assuming they will lose, which i dunno, they're a pretty great team, they could pull 3 straight wins)

so, i guess it'll hurt him a tad because no 3 peat, but he's got more rings in him i believe. (maybe a 2 peat again after this & he's done)

he'll probably end his career with 4 rings, 4 finals mvp, 5 mvps, 34,500 points, & considered anywhere from 5th to 2nd best ever. 5 rings wouldn't shock me either, 6 would

and i wish people would give LeBron a break about the "not 5, not 6, not 7". first he didn't guarantee it, he said that's what they formed to do. 2nd, he was being playful, goofing around & playin to the crowd. wasn't some serious thing, & shouldn't even still be talked about cause he didn't guarantee it, & his tone wasn't dead serious. but yea of course they wanna win it every year like all teams. i don't think he did anything wrong there

Lo Porto
06-13-2014, 07:08 AM
The reason why he averaged more free throws was because he always attacked the basket and he was passive like lebron

Yeah because LeBron hasn't attacked at all..... MJ would go to the line for fouls on fadeaways when guys swiped and missed. LeBron can't go to the line when hit by three spurs at once under the basket.

Jordan was the most babied star in sports history. Helps when you can get in the refs face and are THE NBA brand.

Pablonovi
06-13-2014, 08:50 AM
it's not over yet, & i wouldn't be suprised if the Heat force a game 7. then who knows

but assuming the Spurs close them out it doesn't hurt LeBron much, because game 1 he had cramps & couldn't move to help them down the stretch of the game. game 2 he was great. games 3 & 4 the spurs as a whole were too good. blow outs not really on LeBron

LeBron's stats are solid & the 2 losses when he could finish the games, they were just getting pounded as a team

he'll win 2 more titles i bet, still 4 maybe 5 prime years left & i really think they'll march right through the east again next year to their 5th straight finals, & probably win it refocused from this bitter loss(assuming they will lose, which i dunno, they're a pretty great team, they could pull 3 straight wins)

so, i guess it'll hurt him a tad because no 3 peat, but he's got more rings in him i believe. (maybe a 2 peat again after this & he's done)

he'll probably end his career with 4 rings, 4 finals mvp, 5 mvps, 34,500 points, & considered anywhere from 5th to 2nd best ever. 5 rings wouldn't shock me either, 6 would

and i wish people would give LeBron a break about the "not 5, not 6, not 7". first he didn't guarantee it, he said that's what they formed to do. 2nd, he was being playful, goofing around & playin to the crowd. wasn't some serious thing, & shouldn't even still be talked about cause he didn't guarantee it, & his tone wasn't dead serious. but yea of course they wanna win it every year like all teams. i don't think he did anything wrong there

Hey hidalgo,
BEST POST IN THIS THREAD
(so far); and imo
Best Post By You Ever.

Basically I agree with EVERYTHING YOU SAY ABOUT THE "UP-TIL-NOW"
AND
EVERYTHING YOU SAY ABOUT LEBRON'S PROBABLE FUTURE.

BleedGreen1014
06-13-2014, 11:28 AM
I dont have Kobe all time over LeBron, but without Kobe those Laker teams dont win anything. Kobe was on same level as Shaq.

Completely agree with you on the kobe was on a similar level as shaq back during the 3peat era. PLAYOFF AVERAGES prove he was more than just a "sidekick"

2000: 21.1 ppg, 4.5 apg, 4.5 rpg
2001: 29.4 ppg 6.1 apg 7.3 rpg ( those numbers look pretty comparable to everyone's favorite player Lebron don't they?)

2002: 26.6 ppg 4.8 apg 5.8 rpg

Don't think for one second that Shaq coulda won those titles by himself. Kobe is just a crucial in those championship runs. #numbersneverlie

RaiderLakersA's
06-13-2014, 11:40 AM
Does anyone here believe that LeBron still has a chance at being the GOAT with Finals losses on his resume???

Pablonovi
06-13-2014, 12:15 PM
THE TOP 15 CANDIDATES FOR NBA ALL-TIME GOAT TOP 10 (by ALL-NBA/ABA/NBL TEAMS = best "stat")
N.B. I want to stress that the order of the following list is NOT meant to indicate what anybody's final listing of the NBA All-Time GOAT Top 10 should look like. It is JUST a resource. It is my strongest belief that ONLY guys with 10+ All-NBA 1st-Team+2nd-Team Selections deserve consideration for anybody's Top 10.

10+ MEANS a 10+ Year PRIME.
(BUT, this does not at all address PEAK, each player's TOP 3-7 (virtually consecutive) Super-Great Years. For me, THAT would be THE criteria to re-sort these top 15 (+?) guys and then come up with a final Top 10).

My "qualifications" for commenting on this subject:
1) 55+ YEARS OF "EYE TEST": as a rabid NBA fan (began watching in the late 1950's: Pettit, Wilt, West, Baylor, Big "O", Celtics All-Star Team, etc.);
2) I was born a "human calculator; have always loved and been great with numbers;
3) I've seriously studied NBA (plus NBL & ABA) History; and, in particular, have compared all the main stats (regular and advanced).

My conclusion:
by far THE BEST "STAT" IS THE ALL-NBA/ABA/NBL 1ST-TEAM + 2ND-TEAM SELECTIONS.
Why, because if you examine that list, year-by-year, it super-accurately (though not perfectly, of course) reflects the "eye test"; i.e., better than any other stat or group of stats,

the All-NBA/ABA/NBL 1st-Team + 2nd-Team Selections

REFLECT who were THE BEST TWO PLAYERS AT EACH POSITION EACH YEAR *.

Here is a summation of the All-Time Bests Based On The All-NBA 1st+2nd Team Selections:

COMBINED TOTALS FROM THE "ALL-NBA/ABA/NBL 1st, 2nd & 3rd TEAMS":
Sorted By
1: Most NBA+ABA+NBL 1sts+2nds Combined Team Selections (except where 1sts < 2nds); Then
2. Most NBA+ABA+NBL 1sts Team Selections; Then
3. Most NBA+ABA+NBL 2nds Team Selections; Then
4. Most NBA ....... 3rds Team Selections.
The following table mostly only lists players with at least ten total selections.

* Denotes players inducted to the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame
^ Denotes players who are still active

# Player Total(1+2) 1st 2nd +3rd MVPs
1 Abdul-Jabbar, Kareem* 15 10 5 +0 6
double gap
2 Bryant, Kobe^ 13 11 2 +2 1
3 Malone, Karl* 13 11 2 +1 2
4 Duncan, Tim^ 13 10 3 +1 2
gap
5 West, Jerry* 12 10 2 +0 0
6 Erving, Julius* 12 9 3 +0 4 (MVP's: 3 ABA; 1 NBA)
gap
7 Jordan, Michael* 11 10 1 +0 5
8 Robertson, Oscar* 11 9 2 +0 1
mini-gap
9 Baylor, Elgin* 10 10 0 +0 0
10 Johnson, Magic* 10 9 1 +0 3
11 Bird, Larry* 10 9 1 +0 3
12 Barry, Rick * 10 9 1 +0 3
13 O'Neal, Shaquille 10 8 2 +4 1
14 James, Lebron 10 8 2 +0 4
15 Chamberlain, Wilt* 10 7 3 +0 4
gap
16 Olajuwon, Hakeem* 9 6 3 +3 1
17 Barkley, Charles* 10 5 5 +1 1
18 Havlicek, John* 11 4 7 +0 0
19 Russell, Bill* 11 3 8 +0 5
gap
20 Gervin, George* 9 5 4 +3 1
21 Nowitzki, Dirk^ 9 4 5 +3 1
22 Malone, Moses^ 9 4 5 +3 1
gap
23 Stockton, John* 8 2 6 +3 0
double gap
24 Robinson, David* 6 4 2 +4 1

4 Others Of Note
[Played in pre-integrated pre-1960, days; so, All-NBA Selections REDUCED by 1/2 for such years]
25 Pettit, Bob* 11 10 1 +0 2 -> 6 5 1 N.B.Played 1/2 career =pre-integrated days
26 Mikan, George* 8 8 0 +0 0 -> 4 4 0 N.B.Played whole career=pre-integrated dys
27 Cousy, Bob* 12 10 2 +0 1 -> 4 3 1 N.B.Played 2/3 career =pre-integrated days
28 Schayes, Dolph* 12 6 6 +0 0 -> 4 2 2 N.B.Played2/3career=pre-integrated dys
- - - - -
* I suggest a challenge to any and all.
Find a year where the All-NBA 1st-Team+2nd-Team Selections were DECIDEDLY wrong/off. I bet there are almost NO cases of this.

Conversely, I suggest another challenge to any and all. Find any other stat or combination of stats that CONSISTENTLY does a better job of determining the best two players by position each year. I highly doubt there is such. If not, then one's "work" is vastly simplified because the All-NBA (including All-ABA & All-NBL) lists already exist - as summarized in this post.)
IF this is true, then using the All-NBA Team Selections is THE WAY to determine the Greatest PRIMES ever, and thus, the only players truly deserving of serious consideration for any NBA All-Time Top 10.

THEN, that list of NBA All-Time Top 10 CANDIDATES can be re-sorted by taking into consideration especially PEAKS (and possibly some other factors). Such a re-sort is NOT within the scope of this particular post; but just as a "spoiler" here's My Current List:

Pablo's NBA ALL-TIME GOAT TOP 10 & TOP 25:
#1: KAJ (40% Longer PRIME than MJ (15>11Great Years);67% More Finals (10>6);#1 3-Year PEAK & SkyHook)
#2: Magic (#1 TEAM-mate ever!; 3 More Finals Than MJ)
#3: MJ (Greatest "Assassin"; IF only he had not QUIT for 4.8 years, he'd probably be higher)
#4: Wilt (Most Era-Dominant EVER; IF only his teams had won some Gm7s vs C's All-Star Teams)
#5: LeBron (Most Complete Player EVER;
#6-8: Kobe (Behind only KAJ, tied with TD for 2nd Longest Great PRIME = 15 Years; see: Shaq)
#6-8: Shaq (Dominated the monster twin-towers of: TD+DRob; IF stayed w Kobe, moves up)
#6-8: Duncan (Behind only KAJ, tied with Kobe for 2nd Longest Great PRIME = 15 Years)
#9: Dr. J (4th Best TEAM-mate ever; His ABA Years Were UNEQUALED in unstop-ability on "O")
#10: West (Mr. Clutch, Won fMVP despite his team losing; Greatest Long-Distance shooter ever)
gap
#11-16: K.Malone, Big "O", Baylor, Bird, Barry, Olajuwon (this is my order, but any is OK)
gap
#17-22: Barkley, Havlicek, Russell, Gervin, Nowitski, Moses Malone (this is my order, but any is OK)
gap
#23-25: Stockton, DRobinson, Pettit (this is my order, but any is OK)
#26-28: Mikan, Cousy, Schayes (in this order)

N.B.
In MY GOAT TOP 10:
3 Centers: KAJ, Wilt, Shaq
3 SGs: MJ, Kobe, West
2 SF: LeBron, Dr. J
1 PG: Magic
1 PF: TD

In MY GOAT TOP 25:
7 Centers: KAJ, Wilt, Shaq, Olajuwon, Moses Malone, Russell, David Robinson
6 SGs: MJ, Kobe, West, Barry, Gervin, Havlicek
5 SF: LeBron, Dr. J, Baylor, Bird, Barkley
4 PF: TD, Karl Malone, Nowitski, Pettit
3 PG: Magic, Big "O", Stockton
___________________________________________
NOTES (see right below these notes for related LINKS):
1) I treat West as a SG (he was the SG during half his years, when playing with Gail Goodrich)
2) I treat ALL-ABA Selections as equal to All-NBA Selections
3) I treat ALL-NBL Team Selections as equal to All-BAA (= earliest NBA) Selections.
4) I add Mikan because he was THE Most-Era Dominant Player Ever. (He was easily THE Best Player in 8 Consecutive Years: 47-54; and won 7 Total Chips in those 8 Years (missed only in 51). The First 2 Chips were in the NBL WHEN the NBL had better players and teams than the BAA.
N.B.He played in the weakest era ever: pre-integration AND relatively very weak teams back then.

LINKS:
1) West as a SG:
http://www.lakersnation.com/top-5-point-guards-in-lakers-history/2012/04/03/4/
“There may be those who think Goodrich was more of a shooting guard than a point guard, but since his greatest moments came will playing point with Jerry West, he makes this list rather than our shooting guard list.”
[West played half his career, 7 Yrs, with Goodrich including West’s most-successful year ever, 1971-72, when they had the All-Time Record 33-game win streak & won the Chip. Goodrich himself clearly stated that he was the PG all the years he played with West.]

2) ABA Legacy (& ABA as equal with the NBA):
http://20secondtimeout.blogspot.mx/search?q=ABA

3) NBL as equal/better than the BAA (earliest NBA):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Basketball_League_(United_States)

Wikipedia On the NBL:
“Founded in 1937, the National Basketball League (NBL) was a professional men's basketball league in the United States. The league would later dissolve and some of its teams would be absorbed into the Basketball Association of America (BAA) to form the National Basketball Association (NBA) in 1949. Unlike the records and statistics of the rival BAA, NBL records and statistics are not considered valid in official NBA totals for records and statistics.
Early years[edit]
The NBL started with thirteen previously independent teams in 1937. The league began as the Midwest Basketball Conference in 1935, but changed its name in 1937 in an attempt to attract a larger audience. The league was created by three corporations: General Electric, Firestone and Goodyear. It was primarily made up of Great Lakes area small-market and corporate teams. The NBL lasted twelve years before merging with the three-year-old Basketball Association of America in 1949, with the resulting combination being renamed the National Basketball Association.”

4) Mikan:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Mikan
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/mikange01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/nbl/players/m/mikange01n.html

Wikipedia On George Mikan, “Mr. Basketball”:
“George Lawrence Mikan, Jr. (June 18, 1924 – June 1, 2005), nicknamed Mr. Basketball, was an American professional basketball player for the Chicago American Gears of the National Basketball League (NBL) and the Minneapolis Lakers of the NBL, the Basketball Association of America (BAA) and the National Basketball Association (NBA). Invariably playing with thick, round spectacles, the 6 ft 10 in 245 lb. Mikan is seen as one of the pioneers of professional basketball, redefining it as a game of so-called big men with his prolific rebounding, shot blocking and his talent to shoot over smaller defenders with his ambidextrous hook shot, result of his own Mikan Drill.[1]

Mikan had a successful player career, winning seven NBL, BAA, and NBA championships, an All-Star MVP trophy, and three scoring titles. He was a member of the first four NBA All-Star games, and the first six All-BAA and All-NBA Teams. Mikan was so dominant that he caused several rule changes in the NBA, among them widening the foul lane—known as the "Mikan Rule"—and introducing the shot clock.[2]”

• Earlier he also made the NBL All-NBL 1st-Team in 1946-47 & 1947-48:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/nbl/awards/all_nbl.html

Wikipedia On The NBL’s Later Years (& George Mikan who dominated them):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Basketball_League_(United_States)
“Later years[edit]
The NBL's third era was dominated by Mikan, the 6'10" (2.08 m), three-time All-American center from DePaul who would emerge as the dominant player in the game. As a rookie, Mikan led the Chicago American Gears to the 1947 NBL title, but before the next season, owner Maurice White pulled his team out of the league and formed his own 24-team circuit called the Professional Basketball League of America. That venture quickly failed, and Mikan was signed by the NBL's Minneapolis Lakers, where he teamed with the versatile Jim Pollard to win the 1948 championship.
After the 1947–48 season, Mikan's Lakers and three other NBL clubs left to join the Basketball Association of America (Rochester, Fort Wayne, and Indianapolis). Stripped of its best teams and prime gate attraction, the NBL lasted only one more season, the Anderson Duffey Packers winning the league's last championship before six of its members were absorbed by the BAA, which changed its name to the National Basketball Association.

The NBL added an all-black team in December of its final season, when one of its replacement clubs folded, the Detroit Vagabond Kings. That franchise was awarded to a famous barnstorming team, the New York Rens, composed entirely of African Americans, to play out the season in Dayton, Ohio, as the Dayton Rens. (The BAA was still all-white and the NBA continued as an all-white league for one season before integrating in 1950.)”

5) ALL-NBA 1st-Team & 2nd-Team Selections:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-NBA_Team

6) ALL-ABA 1st-Team & 2nd-Team Selections:
N.B. look down page to 1967-68 thru 1975-76:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/all_league.html

7) ALL-NBL 1st-Team & 2nd-Team Selections:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/nbl/awards/all_nbl.html

beliges
06-13-2014, 12:30 PM
Lebron is a better player than Kobe but I much prefer Kobe
Even though he has had failiures the guy just balls and has that killer instinct you want athletes to have
I dont feel the same way with lebron

LOL. If Lebron is a better player than Kobe then he should have no problem winning a hell of a lot more titles. Especially considering he is on a team with as much talent as Kobe's ever had. I do not understand these statements. If Lebron wants to be on the level of the Kobes, he simply needs to win. Enough with the excuses. Without winning, there is no being better than Kobe. You clearly do not remember how spectacular Kobe was. Its no coincidence he won 5 titles in 7 Finals appearances. Lebron is NOT better than Kobe at this point, and with a loss in these finals, the gap between him and Kobe will remain wide. When Lebron wins a few more championships, we'll see how this discussion goes.

BigCityofDreams
06-13-2014, 12:34 PM
Does anyone here believe that LeBron still has a chance at being the GOAT with Finals losses on his resume???

It all depends on what he does afterwards. Losses in the finals in any sport hurts but if the player comes back and wins more championships the losses diminish. Only a small number of ppl would still hold those losses over his head. Look at the 08 finals and Kobe. I heard many fans and ppl bash him after 08. He took that L and it was a tough one but then goes back to back and shuts everyone up.

BigCityofDreams
06-13-2014, 12:58 PM
LOL. If Lebron is a better player than Kobe then he should have no problem winning a hell of a lot more titles. Especially considering he is on a team with as much talent as Kobe's ever had. I do not understand these statements. If Lebron wants to be on the level of the Kobes, he simply needs to win. Enough with the excuses. Without winning, there is no being better than Kobe. You clearly do not remember how spectacular Kobe was. Its no coincidence he won 5 titles in 7 Finals appearances. Lebron is NOT better than Kobe at this point, and with a loss in these finals, the gap between him and Kobe will remain wide. When Lebron wins a few more championships, we'll see how this discussion goes.

I'm a Laker fan and it would be hard for anyone to say Lebron is not better than Kobe at this point just based on what he has accomplished from stats to awards. But I do agree with your overall point which is enough with the excuses. Ppl can't have it both ways. When the team wins "it's one of the best teams ever" but when they lose it's "oh you know this team isn't that good." Or when he has a big game ppl fall over themselves to give credit to the team and how deep it is but when he has a bad game it's "hey he's doing all the work by himself" WTF are there two different sets of rosters we don't know about lol.

Bring The Heat
06-13-2014, 01:07 PM
Wade just had a nightmare of a game yesterday 3-13 with 10 pts.... doesn't matter how good LeBron is Wade can't have that bad of a game especially if the spurs are ballin like that... If Wade plays that poorly it doesn't matter what LeBron does we will lose.

smith&wesson
06-13-2014, 01:11 PM
well I dont think lebron will be back in miami unless riley trades wade and revamps the team. wade is clearly not the superstar that lebron joined a few years back. his best days are behind him and moving forward lebron is def taking that in to consideration. because yes if he continues to lose in the finals his legacy will def take a hit.

ink
06-13-2014, 01:14 PM
I'm a Laker fan and it would be hard for anyone to say Lebron is not better than Kobe at this point just based on what he has accomplished from stats to awards. But I do agree with your overall point which is enough with the excuses. Ppl can't have it both ways. When the team wins "it's one of the best teams ever" but when they lose it's "oh you know this team isn't that good." Or when he has a big game ppl fall over themselves to give credit to the team and how deep it is but when he has a bad game it's "hey he's doing all the work by himself" WTF are there two different sets of rosters we don't know about lol.

I agree. Let's do away with the silly comparisons between who had what when.

I still don't see the point of slamming or condemning Lebron. I don't care much about him or Kobe or any other "star" we're supposed to fight over all the time.

It's a funny thing: there are generally two types of posters in this forum: 1. the guys that hate and fight without stats about who the best star is, and 2. the guys who argue with stats about who the best star is. And it's incessant. What if it suddenly dawned on people that the name of the game isn't who is the best star?? What if it dawned on people that that is a total waste of time and the point of the game is how does the team function best?

Every so often there are a few threads in the forum about how the game works, but for the most part this forum is a massive disappointment. All this basketball trivia knowledge (rankings, top 10s, GOAT, etc, etc) but so little opportunity to learn meaningful things about the game from those same minds.

We have an incredible team performing at an unusually elite level right now. They may or may not be able to sustain it.

And all we talk about is whether Lebron has "help" or if he sucks or some other crap. What about talking about the team that is putting on a basketball clinic? The team that is showing us how the game is meant to be played?

smith&wesson
06-13-2014, 01:22 PM
I agree. Let's do away with the silly comparisons between who had what when.

I still don't see the point of slamming or condemning Lebron. I don't care much about him or Kobe or any other "star" we're supposed to fight over all the time.

It's a funny thing: there are generally two types of posters in this forum: 1. the guys that hate and fight without stats about who the best star is, and 2. the guys who argue with stats about who the best star is. And it's incessant. What if it suddenly dawned on people that the name of the game isn't who is the best star?? What if it dawned on people that that is a total waste of time and the point of the game is how does the team function best?

Every so often there are a few threads in the forum about how the game works, but for the most part this forum is a massive disappointment. All this basketball trivia knowledge (rankings, top 10s, GOAT, etc, etc) but so little opportunity to learn meaningful things about the game from those same minds.

We have an incredible team performing at an unusually elite level right now. They may or may not be able to sustain it.

And all we talk about is whether Lebron has "help" or if he sucks or some other crap. What about talking about the team that is putting on a basketball clinic? The team that is showing us how the game is meant to be played?

the spurs have exposed the heat and its a beautiful thing to watch. you dont have to join forces with the compitition to get an edge in winning. you can work hard and play together as a team and win. thats what the spurs are showing the world.

Pablonovi
06-13-2014, 02:35 PM
I agree. Let's do away with the silly comparisons between who had what when.

I still don't see the point of slamming or condemning Lebron. I don't care much about him or Kobe or any other "star" we're supposed to fight over all the time.

It's a funny thing: there are generally two types of posters in this forum: 1. the guys that hate and fight without stats about who the best star is, and 2. the guys who argue with stats about who the best star is. And it's incessant. What if it suddenly dawned on people that the name of the game isn't who is the best star?? What if it dawned on people that that is a total waste of time and the point of the game is how does the team function best?

Every so often there are a few threads in the forum about how the game works, but for the most part this forum is a massive disappointment. All this basketball trivia knowledge (rankings, top 10s, GOAT, etc, etc) but so little opportunity to learn meaningful things about the game from those same minds.

We have an incredible team performing at an unusually elite level right now. They may or may not be able to sustain it.

And all we talk about is whether Lebron has "help" or if he sucks or some other crap. What about talking about the team that is putting on a basketball clinic? The team that is showing us how the game is meant to be played?

Hey ink,
You make a number of very valid points. Most important of all that you made: That the teams are more important than their individual members; and that the game is more important than the individual teams.

Perhaps implied in what you say is that the NBA is small in comparison to all-Sports combined; and they are, in turn, small in comparison with the overall culture we make/experience; which is one part of the overall human existence (which also includes economics and politics).

Otoh, there is nothing inherently wrong in, at times and with humility, contemplating the Great: individuals, teams, dynasties, eras, etc.

Getting back to the main point of your post:
Personally, I think that you are very right about the vast majority of posters; yet, imo, there are some who involve themselves in the particular points/players/teams/dynasties/eras being discussed; but bring MORE (a broader, more-historical, perspective) - and from which we can learn. Wouldn't you agree that some do that?

ink
06-13-2014, 02:40 PM
Hey ink,
You make a number of very valid points. Most important of all that you made: That the teams are more important than their individual members; and that the game is more important than the individual teams.

Perhaps implied in what you say is that the NBA is small in comparison to all-Sports combined; and they are, in turn, small in comparison with the overall culture we make/experience; which is one part of the overall human existence (which also includes economics and politics).

Otoh, there is nothing inherently wrong in, at times and with humility, contemplating the Great: individuals, teams, dynasties, eras, etc.

Getting back to the main point of your post:
Personally, I think that you are very right about the vast majority of posters; yet, imo, there are some who involve themselves in the particular points/players/teams/dynasties/eras being discussed; but bring MORE (a broader, more-historical, perspective) - and from which we can learn. Wouldn't you agree that some do that?

Yes I do agree. I want to learn as well and there are some great minds in here. I just wish there was a LOT more talk about the game and a lot less talk about the stars. It's weird how all the star ranking that gets done here so clearly and completely misses the point of basketball the game.

It's why Pop takes a pass on MVP talk no doubt. Because not only is it irrelevant and premature, but it runs completely counter to what a great basketball mind like his works with day in day out to try to win championships.

Pablonovi
06-13-2014, 02:44 PM
It all depends on what he does afterwards. Losses in the finals in any sport hurts but if the player comes back and wins more championships the losses diminish. Only the a small number of ppl would still hold those losses over his head. Look at the 08 finals. I heard many fans and ppl bash him after 08. He took that L and it was a tough one but then goes back to back and shut everyone up.

HISTORICALLY: Finals Losses Go FROM:Super-Bad; TO:Bad; TO:Good (For One's Reputation)

Hey BCoD,
I agree with you. In fact, one might go a little further and say that WITH THE PASSAGE OF TIME losses in the Finals TEND to be change:
a) FROM: Very Negative at that moment;
b) TO: Less and less negative during the following few years;
C) UNTIL THEY BECOME: Looked upon as a positive (after all it's only logical that it's better to lose in the Finals than either in any earlier round or not even make the Play-Offs that year).

This process has happened continuously throughout NBA history.
One example:
West & Baylor suffered 8 Finals Defeats without a victory (West later finally won one.)
At the time, it was pretty devastating; hard to completely avoid the "Loser" label.
As the years passed, the negativity declined.
Now, West & Baylor are both rightfully considered All-Time Top 25 Greats (if not a good deal higher).

ink
06-13-2014, 02:48 PM
HISTORICALLY: Finals Losses Go FROM:Super-Bad; TO:Bad; TO:Good (For One's Reputation)

Hey BCoD,
I agree with you. In fact, one might go a little further and say that WITH THE PASSAGE OF TIME losses in the Finals TEND to be change:
a) FROM: Very Negative at that moment;
b) TO: Less and less negative during the following few years;
C) UNTIL THEY BECOME: Looked upon as a positive (after all it's only logical that it's better to lose in the Finals than either in any earlier round or not even make the Play-Offs that year).

This process has happened continuously throughout NBA history.
One example:
West & Baylor suffered 8 Finals Defeats without a victory (West later finally won one.)
At the time, it was pretty devastating; hard to completely avoid the "Loser" label.
As the years passed, the negativity declined.
Now, West & Baylor are both rightfully considered All-Time Top 25 Greats (if not a good deal higher).

Good points. I have no idea how anyone can rightfully say that West and Baylor are losers.

Same thing with LBJ. I'm not a fan of his but there is ABSOLUTELY no denying he is one of the best to ever play the game.

beliges
06-13-2014, 03:17 PM
Good points. I have no idea how anyone can rightfully say that West and Baylor are losers.

Same thing with LBJ. I'm not a fan of his but there is ABSOLUTELY no denying he is one of the best to ever play the game.

Well, to go 2-2 in the FInals with this Miami Heat team is really disappointing for someone who is supposed to be considered one of the greatests ever. Especially considering that the first Finals he was absolutely terrible and in these Finals he has been mediocre for his standards. Sorry, but to be considered great, you gotta win, especially if you have a great team around you. This will be disappointing if Lebron cannot pull out this title. 2-3 record in the Finals. Certainly not impressive. But, he has a ways to go yet in his career and will have the opportunity to climb up that "great player" board with a few more titles.

BigCityofDreams
06-13-2014, 03:18 PM
HISTORICALLY: Finals Losses Go FROM:Super-Bad; TO:Bad; TO:Good (For One's Reputation)

Hey BCoD,
I agree with you. In fact, one might go a little further and say that WITH THE PASSAGE OF TIME losses in the Finals TEND to be change:
a) FROM: Very Negative at that moment;
b) TO: Less and less negative during the following few years;
C) UNTIL THEY BECOME: Looked upon as a positive (after all it's only logical that it's better to lose in the Finals than either in any earlier round or not even make the Play-Offs that year).

This process has happened continuously throughout NBA history.
One example:
West & Baylor suffered 8 Finals Defeats without a victory (West later finally won one.)
At the time, it was pretty devastating; hard to completely avoid the "Loser" label.
As the years passed, the negativity declined.
Now, West & Baylor are both rightfully considered All-Time Top 25 Greats (if not a good deal higher).

Yep time heals all wounds as they say. The further one gets away from a loss the better it becomes especially if they add to their resume since that loss. Winning cures everything when it comes to sports.

BigCityofDreams
06-13-2014, 03:20 PM
Good points. I have no idea how anyone can rightfully say that West and Baylor are losers.

Same thing with LBJ. I'm not a fan of his but there is ABSOLUTELY no denying he is one of the best to ever play the game.

Yea losers is a strong word but I do understand if ppl hold the 1-8 record against West.

torocan
06-13-2014, 06:49 PM
I wouldn't say it's "ruined", but he's going to have to get back on track and win more rings if he wants to be compared to the top 5 players as a GOAT.

That said, it's going to be harder for him to get anywhere near the GOAT discussion without at least one 3-peat under his belt.

Fortunately for Lebron, he's only 29 and still has more time. The clock is ticking...

Jamiecballer
06-13-2014, 06:50 PM
Lebron apologists are going to be in full effect.
looking at the big picture always makes sense IMO.

Tony_Starks
06-13-2014, 07:01 PM
For those that already have him on a pedestal it really won't matter. They'll just drum up the same tired "Lebron needs more help" excuse.

For the rest of us we'll wait and actually watch his career.

abe_froman
06-13-2014, 07:06 PM
there are 3 camps
his fans-which nothing can hurt
his detractors-will use any excuse to bash/count against him
...and now,the middle between the two extremes-it'd be a black mark,it has to be ,its use as one for every other great....but it wouldnt ruin his legacy as its assured to be a high place with the 2 rings and pretty stats already in the books

Pablonovi
06-13-2014, 07:20 PM
Yea losers is a strong word but I do understand if ppl hold the 1-8 record against West.

No Experts Hold West's & Baylor's 8 Finals Losses Against Them; Just The Opposite !

Hey BCoD,
Pretty much NOBODY holds that 1-8 Finals Record against West; especially amongst the experts. All of them (and most everybody else) consider him an All-Time Great, easily in the All-Time GOAT Top 15. (btw, I have him NBA All-Time GOAT #10).

Same with Baylor, pretty much NOBODY holds that 0-8 Finals Record against him; especially amongst the experts. All of them (and most everybody else) consider him an All-Time Great, easily in the All-Time GOAT Top 20. (btw, I have him NBA All-Time GOAT #11-15).

Keep in mind that West & Baylor lost their first 7 Finals to the Boston Celtics All-Star Team (which easily had a higher % of ALL the All-Stars in the entire League on their team, than any other team in history. PLUS, they had Red Auerbach who was a Top 3 Coach of all time AND, easily, the most ahead-of-his-time Coach/G.M. ever! - He alone must have been worth at least 1-3 points EVERY GAME; and the C's won many very-close Play-Off Games (or even in Over Time)).

Essentially the same thing happened to Wilt Chamberlain. He went "head-to-head" against Bill Russell about 140 times during their careers. Wilt won almost every one of those 140 "head-to-heads"; yet, ultimately Russell's Celtics All-Stars (guided by Red) triumphed over Wilt's teams almost every time in the Play-Offs.

One or two All-Time Greats can only do so much against an All-Star Team &/OR against a vastly better-coached team.

No Wonder Even The Great Wilt Chamberlain Had Trouble Leading His Teams Over Those All-Star Celtics

Miltstar
06-13-2014, 07:22 PM
Lebron's legacy is ruined because more people hate him than love him. I can't think of a more hated superstar than him. Although Luis Suarez seems like a real gem haha but I don't watch much soccer.

Tony_Starks
06-13-2014, 08:21 PM
I honestly look at Lebrons potential legacy in line with Magic or Kobe's. Go to a bunch of Finals and win more than you lose. I don't see any reason why that shouldn't happen, barring injury.

sammyvine
06-13-2014, 08:24 PM
I just respect his game that's all. He makes the smart basketball play every time and works hard on D. And the guy plays through more hate than any athlete I've ever seen.

The funny thing is, he's still accomplished more at 29 than Jordan at 29. And if you don't see the greatness in how he plays, then you're just refusing to acknowledge a great player when you see one.

so who cares about what he accomplished at 29 ...does he need a medal for that?

at the end of the day what matters is how they end their careers. Lebron has 2 rings so far.

sammyvine
06-13-2014, 08:25 PM
It all depends on what he does afterwards. Losses in the finals in any sport hurts but if the player comes back and wins more championships the losses diminish. Only a small number of ppl would still hold those losses over his head. Look at the 08 finals and Kobe. I heard many fans and ppl bash him after 08. He took that L and it was a tough one but then goes back to back and shuts everyone up.

As an out and out basketball player I don't see how Lebron is better than Jordan. Jordan was just flat out better forget all the accolades and medals.

sammyvine
06-13-2014, 08:28 PM
Lebron's legacy is ruined because more people hate him than love him. I can't think of a more hated superstar than him. Although Luis Suarez seems like a real gem haha but I don't watch much soccer.

This is true...I have never seen such a great player be disrespected...

I know Kobe, Jordan etc..all received hate but it was never to the extent of Lebron. All the jokes on twitter...'Lebroning'' they would never do that to Kobe or jordan.

FOXHOUND
06-13-2014, 08:38 PM
This is true...I have never seen such a great player be disrespected...

I know Kobe, Jordan etc..all received hate but it was never to the extent of Lebron. All the jokes on twitter...'Lebroning'' they would never do that to Kobe or jordan.

That's because you would never see Kobe or Jordan do something like The Decision either, which was when LeBron opened the door to the open social media bashing he gets. Kobe has gotten plenty of bashing as well though, and amongst fans he's still more hated than LeBron.

On the fan rated Elo Rating on Basketball-Reference.com LeBron is ranked 9th all time, which is fair I would say. Kobe is ranked 309th...

bluefire7002
06-13-2014, 09:00 PM
This is true...I have never seen such a great player be disrespected...

I know Kobe, Jordan etc..all received hate but it was never to the extent of Lebron. All the jokes on twitter...'Lebroning'' they would never do that to Kobe or jordan.

That's because Kobe and Jordan were known to play great during games where they got hurt. They do get hate though... I still see all the time on my news feed people bring up Kobe's legal issues and making fun of it.

DaBear
06-13-2014, 09:00 PM
I just respect his game that's all. He makes the smart basketball play every time and works hard on D. And the guy plays through more hate than any athlete I've ever seen.

The funny thing is, he's still accomplished more at 29 than Jordan at 29. And if you don't see the greatness in how he plays, then you're just refusing to acknowledge a great player when you see one.

He also entered the league at a younger age, so your point is moot.

Pablonovi
06-13-2014, 09:41 PM
Yep time heals all wounds as they say. The further one gets away from a loss the worst it becomes especially if the add to their resume since that loss. Winning cures everything when it comes to sports.

Hey BCoD,
You did mean to say: "The further one gets away from a loss the BETTER it becomes especially if the add to their resume since that loss." Right?

Pablonovi
06-13-2014, 09:49 PM
I wouldn't say it's "ruined", but he's going to have to get back on track and win more rings if he wants to be compared to the top 5 players as a GOAT.

That said, it's going to be harder for him to get anywhere near the GOAT discussion without at least one 3-peat under his belt.
Fortunately for Lebron, he's only 29 and still has more time. The clock is ticking...

Hey torocan,
You're not really meaning to say that one needs a 3-peat to be in consideration for GOAT, are you? KAJ never had one. Magic didn't. Wilt didn't. T.D. hasn't (and probably won't). And on the list goes of All-Time Greats who never 3-Peated.

Only 4 Teams ever have: The late-40's-early-50's Lakers, The 60's Celtics, The 90's Bulls, & The 00's Lakers.
Most GOAT Candidates were/are NOT on any of those teams.

torocan
06-13-2014, 10:10 PM
Hey torocan,
You're not really meaning to say that one needs a 3-peat to be in consideration for GOAT, are you? KAJ never had one. Magic didn't. Wilt didn't. T.D. hasn't (and probably won't). And on the list goes of All-Time Greats who never 3-Peated.

Only 4 Teams ever have: The late-40's-early-50's Lakers, The 60's Celtics, The 90's Bulls, & The 00's Lakers.
Most GOAT Candidates were/are NOT on any of those teams.

Not necessary, but it helps considerably. Without a 3-peat I think he needs more rings.

And to be fair, Wilt's level of dominance offsets his lack of rings. Wilt wasn't just the best player in the NBA, there was nobody even remotely close. He put up seasons that NOBODY is even sniffing or has ever sniffed. That and the opposition (all star Celtics under Auerbach).

KAJ doesn't have a 3-peat, but he also has 6 rings, 19 all star selections, 6 MVP's and 10 All-NBA first teams.

If KAJ only had the 6 rings and wasn't so elite for so long, the 6 rings on its own probably wouldn't be enough to vault him to that level.

Now, if you're saying that LeBron will have a similarly long career and 5 or more rings, then yah, LBJ can get in that discussion without a 3-peat. After all, MJ only had 14 all star selections, 10 NBA first teams, and 5 MVP's. His double 3-peat puts him over the top. Without those 3-peats, it's a lot harder to decisively put him over KAJ.

Anyway, my point was that the 3-peat wasn't the only thing, but a 3-peat sure makes the argument easier.

Mell413
06-13-2014, 10:16 PM
I just respect his game that's all. He makes the smart basketball play every time and works hard on D. And the guy plays through more hate than any athlete I've ever seen.

The funny thing is, he's still accomplished more at 29 than Jordan at 29. And if you don't see the greatness in how he plays, then you're just refusing to acknowledge a great player when you see one.

He also entered the league at a younger age, so your point is moot.

Him entering the league at a younger age is a point in Lebrons favor. Not saying he is or will be better than Jordan, but you can't use that as a knock against him.

BigCityofDreams
06-13-2014, 10:30 PM
Hey BCoD,
You did mean to say: "The further one gets away from a loss the BETTER it becomes especially if the add to their resume since that loss." Right?

Yea that's a typo

DaBear
06-13-2014, 10:38 PM
Him entering the league at a younger age is a point in Lebrons favor. Not saying he is or will be better than Jordan, but you can't use that as a knock against him.

I don't think it is. Regardless, using age as a metric is pretty stupid. It doesn't account for supporting cast, a weak conference, etc..

Pablonovi
06-13-2014, 10:39 PM
Yes I do agree. I want to learn as well and there are some great minds in here. I just wish there was a LOT more talk about the game and a lot less talk about the stars. It's weird how all the star ranking that gets done here so clearly and completely misses the point of basketball the game.

It's why Pop takes a pass on MVP talk no doubt. Because not only is it irrelevant and premature, but it runs completely counter to what a great basketball mind like his works with day in day out to try to win championships.

Comparing Can Be Quite Instructive For Understanding & More Deeply Enjoying The Game

Hey ink,
Earlier you were making a very valid point about people overemphasizing one stat or another to try to make or break the case of some player's All-Time Greatness.

The Limits Of NBA Stats & Advanced Stats
In the last year I've tried to bring myself somewhat "up to speed" about the advanced stats. I'm sure I'm far from an expert on them; but I feel comfortable that I understand most of them well enough to be able to use them when appropriate.

The biggest thing I have noticed is that it seems clear that: no stat, regular or advanced, or any combination of them is "good enough" to be a top-quality guide to determining who have truly been the greatest players. Part of this is because Basketball is less amendable to advanced stats than some/most other team sports.

The ALL-NBA 1st-Teams, 2nd-Teams (& 3rd-Teams) Are Way Better Than Any Other Measure
Otoh, I've spent a lot of time studying the All-NBA 1st-Teams, 2nd-Teams & 3rd-Teams Yearly Selections (and the corresponding ones for the ABA & the NBL). Their results are not "stats" but relatively "expert" opinions. And those results, imo, do super-accurately reflect what I remember seeing happening on the court (and/or reading about afterwards). In other words, the best "Stat" so far, for measuring NBA greatness is the All-NBA Teams results.

BEST INDICATOR OF WHO WERE THE BEST PLAYERS BY POSITION EACH INDIVIDUAL YEAR
They tell you which players were the 1st, 2nd (and since 89) 3rd best players each year. You look at that list and you instantly can remember a good deal about how the game was played that year.

BEST INDICATOR OF WHO WERE THE BEST ALL-TIME PLAYERS CAREER-WISE
Further, by looking at the cumulative totals of the players, you can very easily see who had 10+ great years; and who didn't. It turns out only 15 guys have had 10+ Great Years (as defined by combining the 1st-Team and 2nd-Team listings together; without including the 3rd-Team which a is a little more border-line). Starting from there, with that list of only 15 guys, one can toy around with their own NBA All-Time GOAT Top 10 or 5.

A GREAT ASSET BECAUSE IT'S BOTH SUPER-ACCURATE & SO SIMPLE TO WORK WITH
For me, that's: both so close to what really happened and so simple to work with, that I find it continually interesting and revealing. It has definitely helped change my own earlier opinions of who should be in the Top 10, and in what order. (It does not, by a long shot, address all the important factors; it's just a great "base-line" to focus onto the few truly worthy candidates. It does not, for example address: who were the best (and worst) TEAM-mates; or who had the best (and weakest) 3-5-7 Year PEAKS amongst these Greatest Players.

USING THE ALL-NBA 1ST-TEAMS & 2ND-TEAMS GETS YOU "IN THE BALLPARK RANGE"
In other words, at least it can get one "into the ballpark" range; avoiding the inclusion of all kinds of outliers (like Bill Walton, who was super-great, but not nearly for enough years) that otherwise might be included, especially by fans of such players; who might not remember that their "heroes" were not great long enough.

Besides, who can remember the top 5 or 10 players from each decade? Maybe when I was younger; now, having this list around is super-helpful.

ITS USEFULNESS EXTENDS FAR BEYOND JUST COMPARING THE GREATEST PLAYERS TO EACH OTHER
Being relatively close to accurate about who the most dominant players were can tell us all kinds of other things:
1) What other players, while not GOAT candidates, were still Great (and how great);
2) What positions dominated the most and when;
3) What style of play was most dominant in what eras;
4) Some aspects of how to compare different eras;
and more.

YOUR MOST IMPORTANT POINT: DON'T LET SUCH COMPARISONS OR ANYTHING REDUCE THE ENJOYMENT THIS GREAT GAME CAN & SHOULD PROVIDE
For me, the biggest point you've made, that really needs to be made, is that it's just a game; and, so, it's supposed to be ENJOYED, not fought over, not getting upset over, not hating players over; and not being blinded by "hero-worship" towards one's own favorite players. No?

In my own case, the most I've ever "hated" a player is if that guy clearly INTENTIONALLY did something that risked the health of another player (like Kevin McHale clotheslining Kurt Rambis). Even then, "hate" is just NOT me.

I also was brought up to not only love "my" team; but to try to fully appreciate and enjoy the work/play of all the players, particularly of great players on any of the other teams. So I've always been fortunate to "love" a number of players on any number of teams.

In these Finals, we've got both individual Greatness (LeBron) and Team Greatness (Spurfection). Both are "worthy" of the loudest ooohhs and aaahhs. My Lakers are not there; but I'm enjoying the heck out of this series.

The NBA Has THE 30 Best Teams In The World - How Fortunate We Are !
After all, the NBA's weakest team is better than any other b-ball team on the planet (except maybe the Spanish National Team - but there's a lot of NBA-ers on that team too)! We are so fortunate to be able to experience THE best teams going at it 82 times each season (plus the even greater Play-Offs).

Sorry for the length of this.

kblo247
06-13-2014, 10:43 PM
This is true...I have never seen such a great player be disrespected...

I know Kobe, Jordan etc..all received hate but it was never to the extent of Lebron. All the jokes on twitter...'Lebroning'' they would never do that to Kobe or jordan.
Disagree. There's wasnt a social media around then, but

Jordan would have been killed for the Bad Boy losses with memes, same with His failed baseball career.

I think Kobe would have took head for Colorado, he would have even took heat for being the first small to make the jump from high school and the Utah air balls IMO

The fact is Kobe and MJ had benefits of living their games on radio before the sports and social media boom where everyone has a social media account and you have so many sports networks and shows.

Pablonovi
06-13-2014, 11:00 PM
Disagree. There's wasnt a social media around then, but

Jordan would have been killed for the Bad Boy losses with memes, same with His failed baseball career.

I think Kobe would have took head for Colorado, he would have even took heat for being the first small to make the jump from high school and the Utah air balls IMO

The fact is Kobe and MJ had benefits of living their games on radio before the sports and social media boom where everyone has a social media account and you have so many sports networks and shows.

Hey kblo247,
It's amazing how short social media has been around yet how much we already take it for granted and how mega-influential it's become
.
"... Kobe would have took head for Colorado, ..." LOL

DemarDerozan
06-13-2014, 11:04 PM
That's fine.

I'm just not entirely convinced that ignoring individual play and solely focusing on team success is the way to compare individuals. Too many variables involved. Too many factors that have nothing to do with the individual. That's all. Again, this is all spawned out of the measuring-rings-to-determine-legacy thing. I just think there's so much more to it than just counting rings.

If individual performance mattered more or as much as championships then guys like Iverson, Gervin and TMac would be ranked a lot higher than 30.

DemarDerozan
06-13-2014, 11:15 PM
Jordan May not have had social media but he had a lot of other bs to worry about. Stricter league rules, players that actually played defense, refs who actually let teams play.

You guys act like the media was never a factor for Jordan or his contemporaries. Jordan was hounded in the national media all the time for losing to the Pistons. Isiah Thomas made front page headlines for questioning social inequality in the league during a pretty racist 1980s.

You little kids act like social media is purely negative. Have you considered that at least athletes and their followers can defend them. Look at all the Lebronymphs and Kobephiles who constantly argue for their guys like on this very forum.

In the 80s and 90s you had what was in print and that's it. People believed a lot more of what they read as well.

slashsnake
06-14-2014, 02:00 AM
In the 80s and 90s you had what was in print and that's it. People believed a lot more of what they read as well.

Yes but print focuses more on the positive than the negative. Lebron hate, Melo hate, Love hate, etc. appears to come more from social and personal media. Sure there's the occasional local piece but those get blown up by being nationally available. Take the "Durant = Mr Unreliable" article. That was huge and really the first major article taking a negative stance on him. A big deal because in today's world, it doesn't just show up in some newspaper in OKC, but all over the world.

I remember the Jordan times against the Pistons and every article I read was about how that team needed more for him to get over the hump. Sure, there were critiques on his play, his jump shot, etc, but they weren't titled and bashing Jordan about how he couldn't do that, but well written articles that realized he was a great player on a team that needed to improve. You'd get with your 3 or 4 buddies and bash him for not getting it done, but the print press didn't do that.

Imagine if the night before game 4, Lebron was caught on somebody's cell phone camera out partying till nearly 3AM... Jordan could get away with that and it was not too big of a story. Mostly because he quit talking to the press for a while and it just died. That news would DOMINATE the sports world today and keep going on.

kblo247
06-14-2014, 02:57 AM
Hey kblo247,
It's amazing how short social media has been around yet how much we already take it for granted and how mega-influential it's become
.
"... Kobe would have took head for Colorado, ..." LOL

Lol glad you caught the pun.

But yeah Social Media and the league itself plays a part. Jordan could ignore the media. In today's world, people, Kobe for one have gotten fined for refusing to speak to them. Its a double edged blade.

Hell Bill Clinton's scandal would have been much bigger had that not been in the 90s where AOL was the in thing

Pablonovi
06-15-2014, 11:16 PM
I wonder how much people think losing LAST year hurt TD's reputation and legacy?
I don't think it hurt him at all; In addition to the Chips, it HELPS to have gotten to as many other Finals as possible. (Better to lose in the Finals than earlier; better to lose in the Play-Offs than not even make the Play-Offs. Better to play and play well in the Regular Season than not play at all.)

Raps18-19 Champ
06-15-2014, 11:23 PM
With the way he played, it only took a slight hit.

DemarDerozan
06-15-2014, 11:24 PM
It puts him back exactly where he belongs. In the Moses Malone, Jerry West, Oscar Robertson echelon of players.

No where near Magic, Jordan, Kareem, or Timmy.

Now he is under .500 in the Finals and couldn't stick it out with the team that drafted him. When he jumps ship again and slows down after hitting the 30 y/o big man bump it will further solidify his not top five status.

DaBear
06-15-2014, 11:26 PM
Garbage time points is LeBron's game. For a guy who averaged close to 30 ppg in the Finals, he wasn't a big factor. The Spurs let him get the points and wipe their *** with it.

mjt20mik
06-15-2014, 11:26 PM
No.

DemarDerozan
06-15-2014, 11:29 PM
He will either have to opt out and sign with GSW, Chicago or Houston or force a sign and trade to the Clips or Thunder or Portland to win another championship.

The glory days in Miami are done.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
06-15-2014, 11:30 PM
I don't think it does. And to be fair to LeBron, replace him with any all-time great and the Heat still wouldn't have won this sereis.

nyknicks1969
06-15-2014, 11:38 PM
He will either have to opt out and sign with GSW, Chicago or Houston or force a sign and trade to the Clips or Thunder or Portland to win another championship.

The glory days in Miami are done.

Back to Cleveland, they are stocked and he can age gracefully.

jerellh528
06-15-2014, 11:39 PM
Lebron better sit down and have a long talk with Riley about this teams future and Riley better make it sound sweet. The worst possible thing Lebron could do for his legacy at this point would be leave the heat and chase rings on another all star squad, it would literally deem him the biggest pansy and most hated player ever.

Raps18-19 Champ
06-15-2014, 11:40 PM
It puts him back exactly where he belongs. In the Moses Malone, Jerry West, Oscar Robertson echelon of players.

No where near Magic, Jordan, Kareem, or Timmy.

Now he is under .500 in the Finals and couldn't stick it out with the team that drafted him. When he jumps ship again and slows down after hitting the 30 y/o big man bump it will further solidify his not top five status.

Would you prefer a player be 2-0 than 2-3 in the finals?

DaBear
06-15-2014, 11:41 PM
Would you prefer a player be 2-0 than 2-3 in the finals?

Yup. Losing in a championship is the worst thing ever.

tredigs
06-15-2014, 11:52 PM
Just saw the stat that only once did the Bulls lose a Finals game by more than 15 points, and it happened all 4 games to Lebron and the Heat this series. No bueno for a team you're leading to take such monumental beatdowns like that over and over again - even if he was by far their best player on the court each game.

cssdmark
06-15-2014, 11:54 PM
Lebron is a great player but to me his legacy is hurt because he feel he needed to join a super team with two other all stars and I think he will be at it again, trying to have another star come or go to a team with two other stars. The championships seem as if they should have an asterisk next to them. If he had the mentality of a Jordan he would be the best to ever play with his physical gifts. I would like to see him win a championship without a super team, that would truly cement his legacy as one of the greatest.

Raps18-19 Champ
06-15-2014, 11:58 PM
Yup. Losing in a championship is the worst thing ever.

Might be the worst feeling ,but not with regards to accomplishments. Losing in the finals is a better accomplishment than losing in the 2nd or 3rd round.

Im_in_Mia_bish
06-16-2014, 12:07 AM
I believe lebron outplayed Jordan statistically last 3 titles.

Jordan had a better team. And the heat just couldn't do it.

Nothing against bron, the spurs were just better coached. Simple.

FlashBolt
06-16-2014, 12:09 AM
This would hurt his legacy just because he's LeBron. He's expected to win and that's that. But, he played great and thus for me, I don't see any reason to blame him for this one.

Im_in_Mia_bish
06-16-2014, 12:09 AM
Hopefully lebron rests up and comes back hungrier next season and wins a title. And hopefully with the heat ;)

Crackadalic
06-16-2014, 12:10 AM
Yup. Losing in a championship is the worst thing ever.

You got chris paul who can't even get to a conference finals yet losing in the finals is the worse thing ever. Yes PSD logic

FlashBolt
06-16-2014, 12:12 AM
Hopefully lebron rests up and comes back hungrier next season and wins a title. And hopefully with the heat ;)

Not bashing the Heat franchise but he's not coming back hungrier if they don't get him pieces to win.

bluefire7002
06-16-2014, 12:17 AM
Not bashing the Heat franchise but he's not coming back hungrier if they don't get him pieces to win.

yea if its still the same big 3 next year and there's no other big changes to their roster, its just going to be another year with an older Wade. I would say though, Bosh can definitely still perform at a high level.

Raps18-19 Champ
06-16-2014, 12:18 AM
Just saw the stat that only once did the Bulls lose a Finals game by more than 15 points, and it happened all 4 games to Lebron and the Heat this series. No bueno for a team you're leading to take such monumental beatdowns like that over and over again - even if he was by far their best player on the court each game.

Jordan`s team mates probably showed up.

Hawkamania
06-16-2014, 12:18 AM
I don't see how this hurts his legacy at all considering he has two titles and I have a feeling those won't be his last.

setman2000
06-16-2014, 12:23 AM
He was the big ego that said not one, not two, not three, not four, not five, not six... Every season he doesn't win is a fail and if not for the Spurs last minute collapse LeBron would, and should only have one ring and everybody knows it. He gets to walk into the finals every year in the pathetic east and can barely compete against the best in the west.

AddiX
06-16-2014, 12:51 AM
Bron asked for this kind if treatment when He did the decision, and teamed up with wade and bosh in Mia.

He wanted attention and a team so good that it's expected to win. He asked for this, no one should feel bad for him. Every time bron loses in the finals ppl blame his team. But the players he's had around him have Always been guys he's asked for.

steelcityroller
06-16-2014, 01:38 AM
Jordan`s team mates probably showed up.

Jordan and Pippen (53 PPG) alone averaged almost as much in the NBA Finals as Lebron/Wade/Bosh (57 PPG) did in these finals against the Spurs.