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jerellh528
06-09-2014, 06:03 PM
5000$ is nothing to these guys. What else can be done?





http://mweb.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/24584232/dwyane-wade-fined-5000-for-finals-flop-in-game-2

goingfor28
06-09-2014, 06:05 PM
imo it has to be suspensions. These weak fines don't do anything to discourage it.
That goes for Wade cp3 lebron harden manu blake, anyone and everyone. I hate flopping.

InRoseWeTrust
06-09-2014, 06:09 PM
imo it has to be suspensions. These weak fines don't do anything to discourage it.
That goes for Wade cp3 lebron harden manu blake, anyone and everyone. I hate flopping.

Amen.

tredigs
06-09-2014, 06:14 PM
I was just checking the cumulative fines for flopping - maxes out at 30K for your 5th flop, and a potential suspension for your 6th - but found this gem: "It's good. Guys can't be flopping and get away with it anymore," Oklahoma City guard James Harden said. "It was bound to happen at some point. Obviously, the league got fed up with it and they put it in. I'm happy they did."

NYKNYGNYY
06-09-2014, 06:17 PM
it can really change the game so imo after a few times it should be a suspension...it was such a close game that that flop really could have changed the outcome...he laughs at 5000 ...that's like taking 2 dollars out of a paycheck anyone of us 2$ and expecting it to deter us from cheating to help us with work

tredigs
06-09-2014, 06:18 PM
Offensive flopping is a bigger issue in my opinion, and it's perfectly legal in most instances. IE jumping sideways into the defender when he goes airborn to get the free throws on their "shot attempt". I was happy to see Van Gundy actually make mention of this in the last game, maybe it will gain some traction. It's by far the most theatrical sport in the world (makes Portugese footballers look like Gladiators) and seeing as the players are fine with it, the league needs to put an end to it and start calling these (in the case of a sideways-jump-shot, it should be an offensive foul and a fine. Bam. 99% of these cease to exist the next game).

Hawkize31
06-09-2014, 06:19 PM
Fine should be a percentage of your pay, not a flat rate. Its not fair to fine guys making league minimum the same as a max player.

Should be like .2% of your salary per flop.

For Wade, that would be $37,340. For Oden, that would be $2054.

ink
06-09-2014, 06:22 PM
Offensive flopping is a bigger issue in my opinion, and it's perfectly legal in most instances. IE jumping sideways into the defender when he goes airborn to get the free throws on their "shot attempt". I was happy to see Van Gundy actually make mention of this in the last game, maybe it will gain some traction. It's by far the most theatrical sport in the world (makes Portugese footballers look like Gladiators) and seeing as the players are fine with it, the league needs to put an end to it and start calling these (in the case of a sideways-jump-shot, it should be an offensive foul and a fine. Bam. 99% of these cease to exist the next game).

100% agree. Intentionally drawing a foul is not hard to spot and is just as unsportsmanlike as flopping. I hate watching players milk the refs for free throws.

BKdoubleStacker
06-09-2014, 06:56 PM
What is the point of this? Wtf is $5000 to wade? I think it's assinine to even fine them. They should hand out a suspension after so many flops

still1ballin
06-09-2014, 06:57 PM
I think due to being at the highest stage of basketball, the fines should be more harsh.

5k is okay for a regular season game but a nba finals game should be a harsher fine/punishment.

Shmontaine
06-09-2014, 07:11 PM
I've always believed that any player determined to have flopped should be given a personal foul assessed at the beginning of the next game.

Wade should start game 3 with a foul. While it wouldn't suspend him from the game, he be on a shorter leash at the outset of it, which could impact his influence..

A monetary fine means nothing, no matter how much. An in-game consequence is the only solution for an in-game violation, imo..

Jeffy25
06-09-2014, 07:23 PM
You need to start getting suspended for it.

Only way you'll ever fix it.

Jeffy25
06-09-2014, 07:23 PM
I've always believed that any player determined to have flopped should be given a personal foul assessed at the beginning of the next game.

Wade should start game 3 with a foul. While it wouldn't suspend him from the game, he be on a shorter leash at the outset of it, which could impact his influence..

A monetary fine means nothing, no matter how much. An in-game consequence is the only solution for an in-game violation, imo..
Only problem with that is that a different team gains for that flop usually then the team that it was against.

Shmontaine
06-09-2014, 07:31 PM
Only problem with that is that a different team gains for that flop usually then the team that it was against.

Not in the post season, where the advantage for flopping is the most beneficial. Only potential issue would be finals elimination game.

It's about punishing the flopper more than negating the flop. The deed is done, the flop already gotten away with.

ManRam
06-09-2014, 07:36 PM
Drawing a cheap foul in the Finals > $5,000 of Wade's money.

Agree with the rest, the punishment ain't enough. No way $5,000 is enough of a deterrent.

KnicksorBust
06-09-2014, 07:50 PM
100% agree. Intentionally drawing a foul is not hard to spot and is just as unsportsmanlike as flopping. I hate watching players milk the refs for free throws.

You don't think there is skill involved in getting defensive players to foolishly jump at your head-fakes? I see no problem rewarding that.

beasted86
06-09-2014, 07:59 PM
imo it has to be suspensions. These weak fines don't do anything to discourage it.
That goes for Wade cp3 lebron harden manu blake, anyone and everyone. I hate flopping.

I'll use the same argument I've used before. If this is where the NBA makes its stand, then this is how the NBA becomes a scumbag league that looks bad unless they make some other increases in suspensions.

If the NBA decides they want to make a stand on flopping and start suspending guys 1-2 games, then that means the next time a guy is arrested for drunk driving or beating his girlfriend or testing positive for drugs or something far more serious, the punishment needs to be like 5-20 games... easy.

I think its better if the NBA continues to make "stands" such as the Sterling incident, and not flopping.

Shmontaine
06-09-2014, 08:06 PM
I'll use the same argument I've used before. If this is where the NBA makes its stand, then this is how the NBA becomes a scumbag league that looks bad unless they make some other increases in suspensions.

If the NBA decides they want to make a stand on flopping and start suspending guys 1-2 games, then that means the next time a guy is arrested for drunk driving or beating his girlfriend or testing positive for drugs or something far more serious, the punishment needs to be like 5-20 games... easy.

I think its better if the NBA continues to make "stands" such as the Sterling incident, and not flopping.

While I agree in principle, I have to disagree with your comparison.

on court violations don't equal off court violations. you could make the argument that that DUI or Domestic violence charges against a player have no impact on the game. flopping, however, has a direct impact on a game. it takes a defender out of the game potentially, and puts a player on the line undeservingly (again, depending on the situation).

I think the league could easily institute a more serious flopping regimen without doing squat about players personal lives or have an 'ethics code' of sorts.

kobe4thewinbang
06-09-2014, 08:09 PM
Two game suspensions and $50,000,000 fines ought to do the trick.

Shmontaine
06-09-2014, 08:13 PM
I'd just substitute the escalating fines with escalating fouls on the subsequent game:

First Offense: 1 foul next game
Second Offense: 2 fouls next game
Third Offense: 3 fouls next game
Fourth : 4 fouls
Fifth: 5 fouls
Sixth: 6 fouls = Suspension.

ManRam
06-09-2014, 08:20 PM
I'd just substitute the escalating fines with escalating fouls on the subsequent game:

First Offense: 1 foul next game
Second Offense: 2 fouls next game
Third Offense: 3 fouls next game
Fourth : 4 fouls
Fifth: 5 fouls
Sixth: 6 fouls = Suspension.

I really don't like retroactive fouls in the regular season tho. It doesn't help the team the flopper flopped against, and instead helps out whichever random team they're playing the next game.

kdspurman
06-09-2014, 08:23 PM
You don't think there is skill involved in getting defensive players to foolishly jump at your head-fakes? I see no problem rewarding that.

Not when the defensive player has the awareness to avoid contact and jump to the side, and the offensive player shoots the ball jumping to the side. Like JVG said, that's not a natural jump shot, and shouldn't be rewarded.

beasted86
06-09-2014, 08:24 PM
While I agree in principle, I have to disagree with your comparison.

on court violations don't equal off court violations. you could make the argument that that DUI or Domestic violence charges against a player have no impact on the game. flopping, however, has a direct impact on a game. it takes a defender out of the game potentially, and puts a player on the line undeservingly (again, depending on the situation).

I think the league could easily institute a more serious flopping regimen without doing squat about players personal lives or have an 'ethics code' of sorts.

Fair enough, but then why are we going to scrutinize this singular aspect of the game and put an greater weight on it. If a you reviewed a foul call and a guy flopped, gave his team an unfair competitive advantage, and may have changed the out come of the game.... why is that more important than say... a final play of the game that was reviewed by the league and they agreed that a foul was missed on a game winning shot?

End of the day, the only argument to be had on the unfair advantages gained in both scenarios is "intent"... but both have the same effect.

Shmontaine
06-09-2014, 08:25 PM
I really don't like retroactive fouls in the regular season tho. It doesn't help the team the flopper flopped against, and instead helps out whichever random team they're playing the next game.

But flops aren't assessed until after the game is over anyway. there's nothing to be done about the current game. And I'd argue that the regular season issues pale in comparison to a postseason series. and since it's an escalating penalty, should a player flop during the regular season, it would only compound the issue in a postseason series.

Shmontaine
06-09-2014, 08:32 PM
Fair enough, but then why are we going to scrutinize this singular aspect of the game and put an greater weight on it. If a you reviewed a foul call and a guy flopped, gave his team an unfair competitive advantage, and may have changed the out come of the game.... why is that more important than say... a final play of the game that was reviewed by the league and they agreed that a foul was missed on a game winning shot?

End of the day, the only argument to be had on the unfair advantages gained in both scenarios is "intent"... but both have the same effect.

I get what you're saying, i think.

but I would argue that a referee missing a call and a player flopping to get an undeserved call are different. one is a mistake, the other is an intentional act to deceive the ref.

bottom line, the players gotta play ball, and not try and fake their way to a win. i'd be much more accepting of a missed foul than a flop that wins the game.

JJ_JKidd
06-09-2014, 08:40 PM
5000$ is nothing to these guys. What else can be done?





http://mweb.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/24584232/dwyane-wade-fined-5000-for-finals-flop-in-game-2

There has to be suspensions. Its ruining the game chrisake! We fans do not want to see this crap and is not part of basketball in any way.

torocan
06-09-2014, 08:42 PM
Well, can't say I'm surprised. Expected it would have to happen to Wade sooner or later, but it still doesn't help the team that is wronged by the flop.

I think the best solution would be to use the proposed NBA online referees and do a real-time flopping assessment. Treat it like a flagrant, with 2 free throws, possession and a rollback of the foul on the person fouled. That would be on top of the current fine system.

It's an in-game violation, and in my opinion it's best handled in-game. If you do that then that will deter flopping more effectively than any fine, especially during the play offs where players will sell their souls to gain an in-game advantage.

They're talking about more active use of replay referees being streamed through NBA HQ next season. I think this would be a good use of it. And to limit the slowdown of the game, I think they should simply give each team 2 free flop challenges and the opportunity to burn a time out for a flop review in game. That way instead of having in-game flop fines slow down the game too much, it gets addressed on the spot and has a real cost to the team calling for a review.

Unfortunately, that flop cost the Spurs in a big way last game. Given it was ultimately decided by 2 points, there's no telling whether it made the difference or not. However, it bugs me that the question will always be in my mind... much like the AC in game 1 will always leave a question mark in terms of outcome.

Here's to hoping they find a workable solution.

nastynice
06-09-2014, 08:48 PM
it can really change the game so imo after a few times it should be a suspension...it was such a close game that that flop really could have changed the outcome...he laughs at 5000 ...that's like taking 2 dollars out of a paycheck anyone of us 2$ and expecting it to deter us from cheating to help us with work

It was wayy to early in the game to make that statement. If that happened late in the 4th then I'd agree, but a missed call in the 2nd quarter really doesn't make a difference.

Iggz53
06-09-2014, 08:49 PM
Suspensions need to be handed out, even for the first instance, if it's as bad as what Wade did. The league uses definitions that guide levels of flagrant fouls. The same should be done for flopping and suspensions need to be enforced.

beasted86
06-09-2014, 08:50 PM
I get what you're saying, i think.

but I would argue that a referee missing a call and a player flopping to get an undeserved call are different. one is a mistake, the other is an intentional act to deceive the ref.

bottom line, the players gotta play ball, and not try and fake their way to a win. i'd be much more accepting of a missed foul than a flop that wins the game.
Somehow I doubt heavily you would be accepting of a major game-deciding blown call in a Finals game involving your team, that the NBA itself admitted was a blown call.

Flops may or may not even alter the result of a game. A clear blown call decided the actual game.

Iggz53
06-09-2014, 08:52 PM
I also think that during their suspended game, they should stand outside the arena holding a sign that says "I Flop During Basketball Games"

IDunknown
06-09-2014, 08:53 PM
Not when the defensive player has the awareness to avoid contact and jump to the side, and the offensive player shoots the ball jumping to the side. Like JVG said, that's not a natural jump shot, and shouldn't be rewarded.

Exactly, you shouldn't be allowed to seek contact in that way. If you jump straight up, or forwards, or fade away basically any direction it should be in the officials judgement whether you were actually making a legit shot attempt. I have seen Carmelo Anthony not get calls sometimes in this exact situation, and I understand it's because he was the one that actually made the contact.

ewing
06-09-2014, 08:56 PM
5000$ is nothing to these guys. What else can be done?






http://mweb.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/24584232/dwyane-wade-fined-5000-for-finals-flop-in-game-2



the refs and everyone (league/fans) can stop caring so much if these guys miss a call. They get tricked into calling player reaction b/c they have been made too big a part of the game. There are a lot of fouls in the NBA it will even out. It often happens on that possession.

The searching out body contact fouls are and issue to. these guys are rewarded to often for acting. You really cant fix it unless you start suspended guys or change the way you are calling it

Raps18-19 Champ
06-09-2014, 09:01 PM
Only issue suspensions after a set amount. 5 flops = 1 suspension.

ewing
06-09-2014, 09:02 PM
Offensive flopping is a bigger issue in my opinion, and it's perfectly legal in most instances. IE jumping sideways into the defender when he goes airborn to get the free throws on their "shot attempt". I was happy to see Van Gundy actually make mention of this in the last game, maybe it will gain some traction. It's by far the most theatrical sport in the world (makes Portugese footballers look like Gladiators) and seeing as the players are fine with it, the league needs to put an end to it and start calling these (in the case of a sideways-jump-shot, it should be an offensive foul and a fine. Bam. 99% of these cease to exist the next game).

i agree. searching out contact has become a big issue and it not just on jump shots. I remember Greg Anthony was the frist player i remember that use his speed to get in the lane, then just throw himself into defenders and lunch a pray. I was a knick fan and it would make me furious now its pretty common.

TheNumber37
06-09-2014, 09:06 PM
It should be a certain percentage of that players salary... something like 3% would make a difference...

That would a bit over half a mil for wade and anywhere.. maybe 10k max on min salary contracts...

In the playoffs 4% tax and a suspension after 2nd flop.

IN THE GAME, flopping should be like a flagrant 1 or even grounds for ejection, because it's truly unsportsmanlike conduct and disrespects the game

ewing
06-09-2014, 09:06 PM
I've always believed that any player determined to have flopped should be given a personal foul assessed at the beginning of the next game.

Wade should start game 3 with a foul. While it wouldn't suspend him from the game, he be on a shorter leash at the outset of it, which could impact his influence..

A monetary fine means nothing, no matter how much. An in-game consequence is the only solution for an in-game violation, imo..

that's not a bad idea. you would need to call out more flops then they are doing now but **** it.

Shmontaine
06-09-2014, 09:09 PM
Somehow I doubt heavily you would be accepting of a major game-deciding blown call in a Finals game involving your team, that the NBA itself admitted was a blown call.

Flops may or may not even alter the result of a game. A clear blown call decided the actual game.

i didn't say i would like it. i would rather have a blown call vs. a cheat. blown calls are part of the game that almost impossible to do away with.

flops alter defensive assignments, pull players out of games, and put players on the line. they may not directly decide a game, but they influence the hell out of them.

Raps18-19 Champ
06-09-2014, 09:12 PM
It's too hard to call for technical for flopping. The game is too fast.

Shmontaine
06-09-2014, 09:12 PM
It should be a certain percentage of that players salary... something like 3% would make a difference...

That would a bit over half a mil for wade and anywhere.. maybe 10k max on min salary contracts...

In the playoffs 4% tax and a suspension after 2nd flop.

IN THE GAME, flopping should be like a flagrant 1 or even grounds for ejection, because it's truly unsportsmanlike conduct and disrespects the game

a fine is essentially buying a call, which i'm not if favor of. i don't care if it costs a player a million dollars. that player flops to a finals victory will get far more than that in endorsement deals and other things.

i think the only retribution that makes sense in something the impacts that player in the game. ie, fouls. so i like your second idea. i just think it's hard to determine this in real time. do you stop the game? first 3 quarters move quicker than the 4th, so i don't see the refs reviewing all potential flops, it would take too long.

beasted86
06-09-2014, 09:13 PM
i didn't say i would like it. i would rather have a blown call vs. a cheat. blown calls are part of the game that almost impossible to do away with.

flops alter defensive assignments, pull players out of games, and put players on the line. they may not directly decide a game, but they influence the hell out of them.

You do realize we are talking about the same exact thing, right?

I am under the assumption that you are not suggesting we fine players who flopped, the ref correctly identified it as a flop, and did not call a foul in the player's favor. So essentially we are talking about the same thing. A ref saw a play flop, but blew the play by calling it a foul. A ref saw a player foul another player, but blew the play by not calling a foul. One way or another the ref blew both calls and they altered the game in some way.

But specifically you are saying a blown call on a flop is more important than a blown call on a game deciding shot.

ewing
06-09-2014, 09:14 PM
You don't think there is skill involved in getting defensive players to foolishly jump at your head-fakes? I see no problem rewarding that.

not if you fake a guy into the air and he contests in a way that he wouldn't have hit you if you took the shot and then you jump sideways into him while blindly throwing the ball straight up in the air with your left hand. I see at least 3 of those calls a game.

nastynice
06-09-2014, 09:16 PM
I'll say this tho, floppers should definitely never be given the benefit of the doubt. Last year when Ginobli got clearly fouled at the end of game 6, I didn't even feel bad cuz he's such damn flopper, he laid his own grave there. Same should go for Wade, only OBVIOUS fouls should be called for him, he shouldn't get any benefit of the doubt moving here forward, I'd be 100% down for that.

Shmontaine
06-09-2014, 09:19 PM
You do realize we are talking about the same exact thing, right?

I am under the assumption that you are not suggesting we fine players who flopped, the ref correctly identified it as a flop, and did not call a foul in the player's favor. So essentially we are talking about the same thing. The ref blew both calls and they altered the game in some way.

But specifically you are saying a blown call on a flop is more important than a blown call on a game deciding shot.

yes, they're both blown calls. but i guess what i'm saying is the ref is trying to call the game correctly, whereas the flopper is trying to get away with deceiving the ref who is in effect, trying to protect the player.

both scenarios suck, but one's willing act, where the other is a mistake.

ewing
06-09-2014, 09:20 PM
I'll use the same argument I've used before. If this is where the NBA makes its stand, then this is how the NBA becomes a scumbag league that looks bad unless they make some other increases in suspensions.

If the NBA decides they want to make a stand on flopping and start suspending guys 1-2 games, then that means the next time a guy is arrested for drunk driving or beating his girlfriend or testing positive for drugs or something far more serious, the punishment needs to be like 5-20 games... easy.

I think its better if the NBA continues to make "stands" such as the Sterling incident, and not flopping.


I don't give a **** what they do off the court. I don't think the league should either. I'lluse stephen jackson as an example. I like that dude as a player. When he pucnhes dudes in the stands he deserves to sit out the year but i don't give a **** what he does at the strip club. As a player i would want him on my team an as a fan i think he got as much out of his ability as he could i want watch.

Crunch Time
06-09-2014, 09:20 PM
I also think that during their suspended game, they should stand outside the arena holding a sign that says "I Flop During Basketball Games"

Or instead of suspension, they can just wear a special jersey the next time they play that says "Flopper", either on the front or back.

ink
06-09-2014, 09:22 PM
100% agree. Intentionally drawing a foul is not hard to spot and is just as unsportsmanlike as flopping. I hate watching players milk the refs for free throws.

You don't think there is skill involved in getting defensive players to foolishly jump at your head-fakes? I see no problem rewarding that.

There's a skill involved in lying, stealing and insider trading. Doesn't make those things right. No I think it's as bad as flopping, which btw is also a "skill". It's intentionally manipulating the rule book instead of playing basketball.

ink
06-09-2014, 09:23 PM
Offensive flopping is a bigger issue in my opinion, and it's perfectly legal in most instances. IE jumping sideways into the defender when he goes airborn to get the free throws on their "shot attempt". I was happy to see Van Gundy actually make mention of this in the last game, maybe it will gain some traction. It's by far the most theatrical sport in the world (makes Portugese footballers look like Gladiators) and seeing as the players are fine with it, the league needs to put an end to it and start calling these (in the case of a sideways-jump-shot, it should be an offensive foul and a fine. Bam. 99% of these cease to exist the next game).

i agree. searching out contact has become a big issue and it not just on jump shots. I remember Greg Anthony was the frist player i remember that use his speed to get in the lane, then just throw himself into defenders and lunch a pray. I was a knick fan and it would make me furious now its pretty common.

Kyle Lowry does it for the Raps and I can't stand it. He's better than that

ewing
06-09-2014, 09:26 PM
I really don't like retroactive fouls in the regular season tho. It doesn't help the team the flopper flopped against, and instead helps out whichever random team they're playing the next game.

but one game isn't more important then another in the regular season. I think it evens out

beasted86
06-09-2014, 09:32 PM
yes, they're both blown calls. but i guess what i'm saying is the ref is trying to call the game correctly, whereas the flopper is trying to get away with deceiving the ref who is in effect, trying to protect the player.

both scenarios suck, but one's willing act, where the other is a mistake.

Yeah, but again, we are talking about the same things. One situation a player makes a willful flop to gain a call because they know the refs WILL call a foul... the other, and Im sure many will agree with this... players get overly physical, often fouling late it games in the same willful manner because they know refs WONT call a foul.

Both are illegal acts based on the expected actions of the ref.

I agree all missed calls suck, especially when they have a big impact on the game.

KnicksorBust
06-09-2014, 09:52 PM
100% agree. Intentionally drawing a foul is not hard to spot and is just as unsportsmanlike as flopping. I hate watching players milk the refs for free throws.

You don't think there is skill involved in getting defensive players to foolishly jump at your head-fakes? I see no problem rewarding that.

There's a skill involved in lying, stealing and insider trading. Doesn't make those things right. No I think it's as bad as flopping, which btw is also a "skill". It's intentionally manipulating the rule book instead of playing basketball.

I agree with you about flopping. That is cheating. Drawing a foul by getting a player to leave his feet is just good basketball. Its not insider trading. Lol. That is against the law.

ewing
06-09-2014, 09:57 PM
Yeah, but again, we are talking about the same things. One situation a player makes a willful flop to gain a call because they know the refs WILL call a foul... the other, and Im sure many will agree with this... players get overly physical, often fouling late it games in the same willful manner because they know refs WONT call a foul.

Both are illegal acts based on the expected actions of the ref.

I agree all missed calls suck, especially when they have a big impact on the game.

i totally disagree with this

ink
06-09-2014, 10:10 PM
100% agree. Intentionally drawing a foul is not hard to spot and is just as unsportsmanlike as flopping. I hate watching players milk the refs for free throws.

You don't think there is skill involved in getting defensive players to foolishly jump at your head-fakes? I see no problem rewarding that.

There's a skill involved in lying, stealing and insider trading. Doesn't make those things right. No I think it's as bad as flopping, which btw is also a "skill". It's intentionally manipulating the rule book instead of playing basketball.

I agree with you about flopping. That is cheating. Drawing a foul by getting a player to leave his feet is just good basketball. Its not insider trading. Lol. That is against the law.

Curry gets clean shots all the time by getting players to leave their feet. Lunging into someone to draw a foul is manipulation.

Iggz53
06-10-2014, 01:05 AM
Yeah, but again, we are talking about the same things. One situation a player makes a willful flop to gain a call because they know the refs WILL call a foul... the other, and Im sure many will agree with this... players get overly physical, often fouling late it games in the same willful manner because they know refs WONT call a foul.

Both are illegal acts based on the expected actions of the ref.

I agree all missed calls suck, especially when they have a big impact on the game.

What the hell are you talking about? How is FAKING getting hit the same thing as being "overly physical", where you're not faking anything. The point of the flopping punishments are to discourage players from FAKING on the court. Stop trying to change the subject and make ridiculous analogies, it's really not working.

I'm not sure if you've ever played basketball, but try flopping during a pickup game and see what happens. It has no place in basketball. Period.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
06-10-2014, 01:11 AM
I don't think suspensions shouldn't be the result for flopping. I feel that if you called a foul for flopping or "T'd" someone up for flopping, that would do something to help the situation.

IKnowHoops
06-10-2014, 01:20 AM
No suspensions, but they should just fine the 30K max every time.

WadeCounty
06-10-2014, 01:50 AM
I like how the flop came against Manu, I see Manu as the biggest flopper of them all so it was pretty ironic to me he got a taste of his own medicine :clap:

As for the punishment, I agree on someones post in the first page about it being a percentage based off of your yearly salary instead of a base fine

beasted86
06-10-2014, 01:56 AM
What the hell are you talking about? How is FAKING getting hit the same thing as being "overly physical", where you're not faking anything. The point of the flopping punishments are to discourage players from FAKING on the court. Stop trying to change the subject and make ridiculous analogies, it's really not working.

I'm not sure if you've ever played basketball, but try flopping during a pickup game and see what happens. It has no place in basketball. Period.

What happens on the street is what should happen in the league. People look at you like you are crazy, laugh, and go on playing like nothing happened.

But basically.... to make another analogy... you are saying instead, on the street, he should take his ball and go home.

Iggz53
06-10-2014, 02:33 AM
What happens on the street is what should happen in the league. People look at you like you are crazy, laugh, and go on playing like nothing happened.

But basically.... to make another analogy... you are saying instead, on the street, he should take his ball and go home.

No, on the street, you're not getting back in the game after one flop.

ThuglifeJ
06-10-2014, 04:19 AM
I was just checking the cumulative fines for flopping - maxes out at 30K for your 5th flop, and a potential suspension for your 6th - but found this gem: "It's good. Guys can't be flopping and get away with it anymore," Oklahoma City guard James Harden said. "It was bound to happen at some point. Obviously, the league got fed up with it and they put it in. I'm happy they did."

Lmao.

IKnowHoops
06-10-2014, 04:50 AM
I like how the flop came against Manu, I see Manu as the biggest flopper of them all so it was pretty ironic to me he got a taste of his own medicine :clap:

As for the punishment, I agree on someones post in the first page about it being a percentage based off of your yearly salary instead of a base fine

I was actually talking to my bro about this. We all know Ginobli is basically the king flopper. And I think, against a guy like Ginobli, who is always acting, it forces you to play that game. I think Wade brought it to the level of his opponent, nothing more. I don't think he does that against a Kobe Bryant. If you look at Ginoblis reaction, he had the reaction of someone who felt he got beat fairly. Fairly in his rule of play. He didn't complain to the ref. He was like "dang he got me". So in this instance, you have to be willing to do to others what they are willing to do to you. I have never seen Wade fake like that, and I really believe it had everything to do with his opposition Manu, who I am sure has got him on the same type of B.S. play and thats why it was like an honor among thieves type of scenario. I really don't think Wade takes flopping to that level against anyone who hasn't flopped on that level against him. Between this series and last years, I would bet Ginobli has got some straight B.S. called on Wade through acting his acting jobs. I have no problem with the flop if this is the case. Manu had no problem with it...that is very telling.

Munkeysuit
06-10-2014, 05:05 AM
He deserved it, but, but, but watcha guna do bout it? (George Bush jr voice)

PurpleLynch
06-10-2014, 06:35 AM
I was just checking the cumulative fines for flopping - maxes out at 30K for your 5th flop, and a potential suspension for your 6th - but found this gem: "It's good. Guys can't be flopping and get away with it anymore," Oklahoma City guard James Harden said. "It was bound to happen at some point. Obviously, the league got fed up with it and they put it in. I'm happy they did."

Tell me you are joking and that Harden never said that,please. :rolleyes:

Dade County
06-10-2014, 09:09 AM
I was actually talking to my bro about this. We all know Ginobli is basically the king flopper. And I think, against a guy like Ginobli, who is always acting, it forces you to play that game. I think Wade brought it to the level of his opponent, nothing more. I don't think he does that against a Kobe Bryant. If you look at Ginoblis reaction, he had the reaction of someone who felt he got beat fairly. Fairly in his rule of play. He didn't complain to the ref. He was like "dang he got me". So in this instance, you have to be willing to do to others what they are willing to do to you. I have never seen Wade fake like that, and I really believe it had everything to do with his opposition Manu, who I am sure has got him on the same type of B.S. play and thats why it was like an honor among thieves type of scenario. I really don't think Wade takes flopping to that level against anyone who hasn't flopped on that level against him. Between this series and last years, I would bet Ginobli has got some straight B.S. called on Wade through acting his acting jobs. I have no problem with the flop if this is the case. Manu had no problem with it...that is very telling.

Nice post "honor among thieves type of scenario".

2-ONE-5
06-10-2014, 09:55 AM
I think due to being at the highest stage of basketball, the fines should be more harsh.

5k is okay for a regular season game but a nba finals game should be a harsher fine/punishment.

i agree with this. 5k reg season, 10k playoffs, 15-20k finals and it should be a personal foul or the % of paycheck idea is good too

Acclaimed
06-10-2014, 10:00 AM
Honestly at this point it's the ref's fault. Stop calling penalties unless you actually see the contact.... Not because you see someone flail.

In all seriousness it's easy to see. Whenever some player makes a reaction like he's been shot he's more than likely faking it lol.

KnicksorBust
06-10-2014, 11:09 AM
Not when the defensive player has the awareness to avoid contact and jump to the side, and the offensive player shoots the ball jumping to the side. Like JVG said, that's not a natural jump shot, and shouldn't be rewarded.

If the defensive player had better awareness he would have stayed on his feet in the first place. Advantage: Offense.


Exactly, you shouldn't be allowed to seek contact in that way. If you jump straight up, or forwards, or fade away basically any direction it should be in the officials judgement whether you were actually making a legit shot attempt. I have seen Carmelo Anthony not get calls sometimes in this exact situation, and I understand it's because he was the one that actually made the contact.

Yeah that's what the NBA needs... more subjective calls by officials.


not if you fake a guy into the air and he contests in a way that he wouldn't have hit you if you took the shot and then you jump sideways into him while blindly throwing the ball straight up in the air with your left hand. I see at least 3 of those calls a game.

What's a "natural jump shot?" What if I'm at a bad angle to the hoop and I draw contact while jumping away from the sideline? Is that a foul?


Curry gets clean shots all the time by getting players to leave their feet. Lunging into someone to draw a foul is manipulation.

See posts above.

ink
06-10-2014, 11:21 AM
See posts above.

It's cheating. The rules are being twisted. The rule isn't about not being allowed to leave your feet, it's about contact while in the shooting motion. If someone is lunging into someone intentionally to draw a foul and then fakes the shooting motion too, they should be called for it. It's just as bad if not worse than flopping.

If their intention is to shoot and they're interfered with: defensive foul.

If their intention is to draw a foul by lunging into someone and they fake a shooting motion to get a shooting foul: offensive foul.

I'd also throw in a fine because they're slowing down the game and abusing the rules.

Like I said, one of the players on my team does it all the time and it's sleazy. I don't want him to gain advantage by cheating, flopping or anything like that. I want him to earn it.

ManRam
06-10-2014, 11:27 AM
I think "cheating" is a harsh word to describe it. Who says you can't lean, or even blatantly jump into contact? Where is that against the rules? It's not flopping. It's not embellishing even. It's just an extreme way of drawing contact. The contact is legit. The foul drawn is legit. The means of getting it might be "sleazy", but still. We don't complain when players driving to the rim intentionally dive into players to draw contact.

I'm kinda torn on it. On one hand, if you get the defender jumping out of their shows I think it's fine for the offensive player to make them pay for it. On the other hand, it isn't really a "natural" thing, and clearly just an attempt to draw a foul. That's not really fun and a tad frustrating.

I just don't see how it's cheating. Drawing contact because of a defender's mistake? Well, it might be a bit shady or impure or something...but it's not "cheating"? I think that's the wrong word.

8kobe24
06-10-2014, 11:37 AM
1st offense $25K
2nd offense $25k + 1 game suspension
3rd offense $50K + 2 game suspension
so on and so forth

ManRam
06-10-2014, 11:53 AM
If it takes 7 techs to get suspended it's not ever going to take just 2 flops to get a player suspended either. Whether that's right or not.

The right first step is the NBA being more liberal with their assessment of these things. There were just NINE instances this year where a player actually got fined this year. I'm not saying they need to start fining guys for slight embellishments, or even obvious embellishments, but they gotta pick more clear flops out because there are definitely more to be picked out. Fining is only a deterrent when it's actually a serious threat to happen, let alone stiff enough, and right now it takes an outrageously egregious flop, usually on a big stage, to actually get in trouble. Regardless of what the dollar sign is, the fines have to be more frequent. And until it does, all these proposed dollar amounts and suspension thresholds are kinda moot. No one is ever gonna reach the benchmarks people are proposing so the risk is still worth it.

ink
06-10-2014, 11:53 AM
I think "cheating" is a harsh word to describe it. Who says you can't lean, or even blatantly jump into contact? Where is that against the rules? It's not flopping. It's not embellishing even. It's just an extreme way of drawing contact. The contact is legit. The foul drawn is legit. The means of getting it might be "sleazy", but still. We don't complain when players driving to the rim intentionally dive into players to draw contact.

We should. It's no more legit than a person flopping. I'm sure in the Euroleague they have no problem with defenders sprawling backwards across the floor all game just as in the US people have no problem seeing shooters dive into players who've left their feet or slashers diving into defenders when driving to the hoop. The intention has to be to shoot or to get to the rim and the rules are pretty clear about what contact constitutes a foul. It's easy to see someone intentionally trying to draw a foul. Just as easy as it is to see when someone is flopping.


I'm kinda torn on it. On one hand, if you get the defender jumping out of their shows I think it's fine for the offensive player to make them pay for it. On the other hand, it isn't really a "natural" thing, and clearly just an attempt to draw a foul. That's not really fun and a tad frustrating.

The intentional foul-drawing is lame. The league is better than that. It's like watching soccer where players are diving all over the place.


I just don't see how it's cheating. Drawing contact because of a defender's mistake? Well, it might be a bit shady or impure or something...but it's not "cheating"? I think that's the wrong word.

That's exactly where refs need to draw the line. Sure, the defender made a mistake but it doesn't automatically justify someone intentionally diving into them to manufacture a foul.

If cheating is the right word for flopping, cheating is also the right word for these uncalled offensive fouls. They're cheating in the sense that they're intentionally manipulating rules for their own gain (i.e. FTs). IMO it's exactly the right word for it.

KnickaBocka.44
06-10-2014, 12:33 PM
Let's not forget that his flop prevented Manu from getting a call on the same kind of play when he actually did get hit later on in the game. Those 2 free throws could have brought the game to OT.

RaiderLakersA's
06-10-2014, 01:16 PM
I can't lie: I lost a little respect for Wade when I saw that flop in Game 2.

NBA_Starter
06-10-2014, 02:54 PM
He deserved it but it still wasn't Hibbert esque IMO.

KnicksorBust
06-10-2014, 03:28 PM
It's cheating. The rules are being twisted. The rule isn't about not being allowed to leave your feet, it's about contact while in the shooting motion. If someone is lunging into someone intentionally to draw a foul and then fakes the shooting motion too, they should be called for it. It's just as bad if not worse than flopping.

How is it as bad as flopping? Flopping is illegal and causes players to be fined. This does neither of those.


If their intention is to shoot and they're interfered with: defensive foul.

Agreed.


If their intention is to draw a foul by lunging into someone and they fake a shooting motion to get a shooting foul: offensive foul.

#1.) You are denying credit for the offensive player who successfully forced the defensive player into a compromising position. The offensive player did something right and now deserves to reap the rewards.

#2.) How would you determine what is "lunging" and what is a natural shooting motion? You have now created another situation where referees will be making subjective decisions. Isn't there enough drama with fouls already?


I'd also throw in a fine because they're slowing down the game and abusing the rules.


Even worse after addressing the two issues above.


Like I said, one of the players on my team does it all the time and it's sleazy. I don't want him to gain advantage by cheating, flopping or anything like that. I want him to earn it.

Well I'm sure we're all pleased to know your integrity is unparalleled. j/k :)

Raps18-19 Champ
06-10-2014, 03:29 PM
No suspensions, but they should just fine the 30K max every time.

That's what they have implemented. The max I've ever seen implemented for a fine is below 30K.

tredigs
06-10-2014, 03:47 PM
The lunges are in no way, shape or form tough to distinguish between a regular shot. It's a hell of a lot easier to distinguish than a block/charge IMO (which half the time both players are legitimately attempting offense/defense). I've yet to see a player leap 3 feet to his left and throw the ball into the stands on an open shot. Maybe your jumper has its own style though.

Beyond that, they wouldn't need to distinguish these calls if it were an offensive foul because nobody would attempt it any more. They would just, y'know - shoot. These aren't balls that would or could be blocked, they're players jumping far out of their way to draw contact. It's actually embarrassing to me that fans of the league would defend that play. We're supposed to reward them for being able to get a defensive player to bite on the pump-fake but still have the discipline to not land anywhere near the shooter? Biting on the shot and ending up in his arms or landing zone is a completely different matter, and that always should and will result in FTs.

You're on a roll with these threads lately KoB. Just trolling?

ink
06-10-2014, 03:51 PM
How is it as bad as flopping? Flopping is illegal and causes players to be fined. This does neither of those.

So only illegal things are bad? Why do you think rules evolve? Why do you think they instituted flopping rules to begin with?


#1.) You are denying credit for the offensive player who successfully forced the defensive player into a compromising position. The offensive player did something right and now deserves to reap the rewards.

#2.) How would you determine what is "lunging" and what is a natural shooting motion? You have now created another situation where referees will be making subjective decisions. Isn't there enough drama with fouls already?

1. I'm not denying anyone credit. Steph Curry gets people to leave their feet, fly by him, and give him an open shot. I give credit to that, not Andrea Bargnani plowing into some guy so he can pad his scoring totals with FTs.

2. You can't tell the difference between lunging and shooting?? Two hints: lunging will not help your accuracy and neither will shooting form that looks more like a seizure than a shot.


Well I'm sure we're all pleased to know your integrity is unparalleled. j/k :)

It's the NBAs integrity that's in question, not mine. ;) These aren't hard fouls to call, absolutely the same as calling a flop. When a player who plays with the precision of an assassin for most of the game intentionally spazzes into someone it kinda sticks out.

ink
06-10-2014, 03:53 PM
The lunges are in no way, shape or form tough to distinguish between a regular shot. It's a hell of a lot easier to distinguish than a block/charge IMO (which half the time both players are legitimately attempting offense/defense). I've yet to see a player leap 3 feet to his left and throw the ball into the stands on an open shot. Maybe your jumper has its own style though.

Beyond that, they wouldn't need to distinguish these calls if it were an offensive foul because nobody would attempt it any more. They would just, y'know - shoot. These aren't balls that would or could be blocked, they're players jumping far out of their way to draw contact. It's actually embarrassing to me that fans of the league would defend that play. We're supposed to reward them for being able to get a defensive player to bite on the pump-fake but still have the discipline to not land anywhere near the shooter? Biting on the shot and ending up in his arms or landing zone is a completely different matter, and that always should and will result in FTs.

+1

kdspurman
06-10-2014, 05:43 PM
Let's not forget that his flop prevented Manu from getting a call on the same kind of play when he actually did get hit later on in the game. Those 2 free throws could have brought the game to OT.

I noticed that as well.

kdspurman
06-10-2014, 05:50 PM
I'm more impressed with a defender who might leave his feet and has the ability to change his position in the air to avoid the contact.

No way should you reward a guy who decides to jump into a guy sideways to try and draw a foul. They call it an offensive foul if a shooter kicks out his leg now. Hell they don't even reward a shooter for that swipe through that Durant and others love to do. They call the foul, but don't give the player FT's I think.

KnicksorBust
06-10-2014, 06:32 PM
The lunges are in no way, shape or form tough to distinguish between a regular shot. It's a hell of a lot easier to distinguish than a block/charge IMO (which half the time both players are legitimately attempting offense/defense). I've yet to see a player leap 3 feet to his left and throw the ball into the stands on an open shot. Maybe your jumper has its own style though.

My jump shot is 3 feet to the right with a granny style release but that is none of your damn business.


Beyond that, they wouldn't need to distinguish these calls if it were an offensive foul because nobody would attempt it any more. They would just, y'know - shoot. These aren't balls that would or could be blocked, they're players jumping far out of their way to draw contact. It's actually embarrassing to me that fans of the league would defend that play. We're supposed to reward them for being able to get a defensive player to bite on the pump-fake but still have the discipline to not land anywhere near the shooter? Biting on the shot and ending up in his arms or landing zone is a completely different matter, and that always should and will result in FTs.

You and I fundamentally disagree on the validity of a defensive player jumping at a shooter. I think it is a terrible basketball play. It's been proven to hold little statistical difference from a standard hands up close-out and players that continue to do it should continue to be punished for it.


You're on a roll with these threads lately KoB. Just trolling?

Never. :)


So only illegal things are bad?

I feel like I accidentally stumbled into the politics forum. Alcohol is good but marijuana is bad... in 49 states?


Why do you think rules evolve? Why do you think they instituted flopping rules to begin with?

Rules evolve because the game evolves. I don't necessarily think this falls under the same guideline of say zone defenses. Jumping at shooters has been a bad defensive play forever.


1. I'm not denying anyone credit. Steph Curry gets people to leave their feet, fly by him, and give him an open shot. I give credit to that, not Andrea Bargnani plowing into some guy so he can pad his scoring totals with FTs.

Good point. Without this rule, Andrea Bargnani would no longer be able to dominate the NBA... wait what?


2. You can't tell the difference between lunging and shooting?? Two hints: lunging will not help your accuracy and neither will shooting form that looks more like a seizure than a shot.

I agree with you in the sense that there are obvious examples that could be distinguished but to ignore the blurred lines of by creating an arbitrary "natural shot" seems very subjective to me. I don't think all of these calls would be as cut and dry as you make it out to be for referees. And again I just fundamentally disagree that defensive players should be protected from making a bad defensive play. Offensive players who are threats to shoot should deserve to get the rewards of drawing sloppy defenders into the air.


It's the NBAs integrity that's in question, not mine. ;) These aren't hard fouls to call, absolutely the same as calling a flop. When a player who plays with the precision of an assassin for most of the game intentionally spazzes into someone it kinda sticks out.

Fair enough. I concede that many of the calls would be easy to make. I just don't think they should be made at all.

WadeKobe
06-10-2014, 06:59 PM
I don't understand the outrage.

I don't like flopping. It is a bit irritating and can be very frustrating when your team is on the losing end of a flop. But it's been a pretty common part of the game for a very long time now. Is it worse in recent years? Yes.

But is it so egregious as to warrant all of this outrage? I don't think so.

IMO, use instant replay at intervals throughout the game and, even though you can't change te outcome, you can remove fouls from players that were not Actualy fouls.

From there, I would like I I it was a %-based fine.

As far as the side-jumps..... Do some of you just need things to complain about in order to be happy? FFS

ink
06-10-2014, 07:42 PM
I agree with you in the sense that there are obvious examples that could be distinguished but to ignore the blurred lines of by creating an arbitrary "natural shot" seems very subjective to me. I don't think all of these calls would be as cut and dry as you make it out to be for referees. And again I just fundamentally disagree that defensive players should be protected from making a bad defensive play. Offensive players who are threats to shoot should deserve to get the rewards of drawing sloppy defenders into the air.

A few things: I didn't say anything about "natural shots". It's not about assessing the shot, otherwise Shawn Marion would be breaking every shooting rule every game. It's about refs recognizing intent, and it's super easy to see and call. And the way you punish a defender is to hit your shot in the flow of the game.

If you fake fouls on offence or defence it should be called flopping. It's ludicrous.

ink
06-10-2014, 07:47 PM
I don't understand the outrage.

There is no outrage. It's a discussion.

TrueFan420
06-10-2014, 07:52 PM
5000$ is nothing to these guys. What else can be done?





http://mweb.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/24584232/dwyane-wade-fined-5000-for-finals-flop-in-game-2

Start handing out one games suspensions for egregious flops and it will end real quick.

KnicksorBust
06-10-2014, 08:05 PM
A few things: I didn't say anything about "natural shots". It's not about assessing the shot, otherwise Shawn Marion would be breaking every shooting rule every game. It's about refs recognizing intent, and it's super easy to see and call. And the way you punish a defender is to hit your shot in the flow of the game.

If you fake fouls on offence or defence it should be called flopping. It's ludicrous.

Let me ask you a question. Do you think a defender jumping off the ground at a shooter is the best defensive play they can make?

ink
06-10-2014, 08:20 PM
A few things: I didn't say anything about "natural shots". It's not about assessing the shot, otherwise Shawn Marion would be breaking every shooting rule every game. It's about refs recognizing intent, and it's super easy to see and call. And the way you punish a defender is to hit your shot in the flow of the game.

If you fake fouls on offence or defence it should be called flopping. It's ludicrous.

Let me ask you a question. Do you think a defender jumping off the ground at a shooter is the best defensive play they can make?

You're conflating two separate issues. This issue is with flopping or faking. The outcome of a bad defensive play shouldn't be faking to draw a foul. It should be a legit basketball play, not a fake foul.

Acclaimed
06-11-2014, 09:03 AM
I'm curious to why this thread is about wade when Splitter is the biggest flop artist on the court during the finals, and it's not even close....

BDawk4Prez
06-11-2014, 09:19 AM
Firing Squad, only answer.

Chrisclover
06-11-2014, 11:30 AM
Maestro of flopping. He is a superstar yet he continues flopping anyway. This shall set a bad example for others.

Acclaimed
06-11-2014, 11:53 PM
Maestro of flopping. He is a superstar yet he continues flopping anyway. This shall set a bad example for others.

Uh Chris Paul has been flopping just as long as Wade has. Wad did not "start" flopping lol.

Chrisclover
06-12-2014, 12:45 AM
Uh Chris Paul has been flopping just as long as Wade has. Wad did not "start" flopping lol.
Yeah, they are all hypocritical liars

Acclaimed
06-12-2014, 01:28 AM
I think what needs to happen... When a guy gets hit in the face or something and they go to the replay and realized he was acting they should be able to call a flagrant the other way.

Flopping and getting the charge has been happening forever. Unless we already forgot flopmaster Vlade. It's just more people are doing it now. James Harden flops. KD flops. I've seen so many players flop.

IKnowHoops
06-12-2014, 08:46 PM
He did it to Ginobli who makes a living flopping so its OK. You live by the flop, you die by the flop. Nothing wrong with a little flopper on flopper flopping.