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View Full Version : Why is Lebron hated while Jordan was loved



ayuntalo
06-09-2014, 08:44 AM
I just want to know your thoughts,
Why is LeBron not loved by most nba fans when he is clearly the best player right now?
(Probably 50% loves him, 50% hates him)

While Jordan, as i remember was clearly hailed by everyone. I was still young back then but i dont remember people hating on him.

While growing up, i noticed people always love the great players,
Kobe, tmac, vince.
But when it comes to lebron?
Im nt so sure..

TurboDEEZsmoke
06-09-2014, 08:46 AM
The diffrence between now and then, the amount of technology that people can share their stupidness with. People are dumb, once the rot sets in, theres no turning back.

TurboDEEZsmoke
06-09-2014, 08:49 AM
Also, ever since his abc or nbc or whatever the "decission" turned me away from liking the guy. Especially since chicago was a top 3 choice

ATX
06-09-2014, 08:54 AM
Age of social media has a large part in it. Bob Costas had a good quote on this while backing up James this morning. Perhaps someone will post it.

JC_
06-09-2014, 08:55 AM
I think there are a bunch of factors. If Jordan was in his prime right now I think he would get close to the same amount of hate Lebron gets. With the way the internet is now, there are tons of people trying to get attention and the easiest way to do that is to say something negative. So haters in general are in full force and now have an easy way to get the attention they crave.

theducksmuggler
06-09-2014, 08:55 AM
Michael Jordan stayed in Chicago through thick and thin except that one Wizards year that meant nothing hahah fans automatically love a player that stays in the same place during their career, he also didnt team up with other superstars they were drafted with him through the organization and wanted to beat the other star players Bird and Magic...thats why i personally dont like him the way he left Cleveland and i know people think thats stupid but just my opinion

c.c.
06-09-2014, 09:09 AM
Michael Jordan stayed in Chicago through thick and thin except that one Wizards year that meant nothing hahah fans automatically love a player that stays in the same place during their career, he also didnt team up with other superstars they were drafted with him through the organization and wanted to beat the other star players Bird and Magic....thats why i personally dont like him the way he left Cleveland and i know people think thats stupid but just my opinion

Same here. I'm a Lebron hater but I can't lie he is the best basketball player in the world and it's not even close! I just lost respect for him when "he took his talents to South Beach". I just wanted him to bring the city of a championship so bad and be a hometown hero. The only way I could see myself rooting for him if he became a Rocket.

sager729
06-09-2014, 09:11 AM
For me it's I don't care who hates, that's your choice as long as you say he's one of the best players ever.

I love watching him play and I'm a Bulls fan. Now watching Wade play is extremely annoying for many reasons.

1. Complains that he was fouled every offensive trip.

2. Never commits a foul if you ask him.

3. Turns the ball over and then just stands there while LeBron normally chases it down and makes a play, then Wade is just cherry picking at the other end.

Wade was fun back when he played with Shaq, but now he is just whiny and riding on the coattails of one of the greatest.

Mr. Baller
06-09-2014, 09:13 AM
Social media overblows everything. We didn't get gifs and memes 10 minutes everytime Jordan flopped or complained for a foul like we do Bron

DaBossLaker04
06-09-2014, 09:15 AM
It's a combination of 2 or 3 reasons. 1. Michael stayed in Chicago (nobody really counts the wizards lol) went through the bad and the good. He also played against rivals that made him more appealing to watch battle with.

2. Some people don't like him because everyone tries to compare him to Jordan. And the new generation of fans claim he's better than Jordan. And there are those that defend Kobe and tmac etc . Nobody wants to hear their favorite superstar isn't the best. I myself am a laker fan first. But I won't lie that Kobe and MJ are my to 2. I like their hate to lose attitude. And their assassin like demeanor. But that doesn't take anything away from LeBron. I can say he's the best in the league.

3. Lastly and the most dumb. People don't like cuz he so called "whines" about calls and such. But I haven't seen one superstar that doesn't in some way shape or form. It can be Tim Duncans big eyes to LeBron and kobes hand gestures.

It's usually mainly reason 1&2 tho

ManRam
06-09-2014, 09:25 AM
The notion that LeBron wasn't hated and chided before "The Decision" is a cute one. I do genuinely believe that The Decision did trigger some new dislike among some people, but for most it just seems like a simple justification for the actual petty reasons they despise the man.

People hate great players. I don't really despise any athlete that's not great, thinking of those that I do or have disliked in the past. We get turned off by hype all the time and don't like when great players threaten our beloved great players (like, Peyton Manning v. Tom Brady for me). That's the crux of it 9 times out of 10. People come up with these other reasons to more justify their hate and make them feel better about it, but usually it just boils down to great players having great success on the court and people not liking that.

Stuff like whining, flopping, ego, etc. etc. can be said about almost 80% of the league probably. That's not the real reason people dislike the guy. It's how they justify it, but it's not the reason. If he was a league-average player and behaved the exact same he did, no one would care.


And yeah, it's harder these days. Literally everything is news. Every soundbite is overanalyzed. Every tweet is dissected. Every reaction on the court is caught by someone. Everything is public. Everything is scrutinized. It all provides more phony sanctimony to people's core hatred of players.

alexander_37
06-09-2014, 09:40 AM
Because alot of people didn't realize how big of a douche Jordan was. He wasn't nearly as overexposed as players are these days.

d00d
06-09-2014, 09:42 AM
Everyone respected him in Cleveland. then when he did the big media whore event to stick the knife in Clevelands back to go to south beach, everyone outside of Miami thought he was a dick

oh, and the fact he colluded with bosh and wade to win easy rings didnt help either

Slug3
06-09-2014, 09:51 AM
For me it's I don't care who hates, that's your choice as long as you say he's one of the best players ever.

I love watching him play and I'm a Bulls fan. Now watching Wade play is extremely annoying for many reasons.

1. Complains that he was fouled every offensive trip.

2. Never commits a foul if you ask him.

3. Turns the ball over and then just stands there while LeBron normally chases it down and makes a play, then Wade is just cherry picking at the other end.

Wade was fun back when he played with Shaq, but now he is just whiny and riding on the coattails of one of the greatest.

This really has nothing to even do with the question so why even post it?

RiLoc
06-09-2014, 10:05 AM
This seems relevant: Mind of the Fan: LeBron James from ESPN (http://espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2014/story/_/page/mindoffan/how-fans-see-lebron-james)

LongIslandIcedZ
06-09-2014, 10:08 AM
I can't speak to why Jordan was loved because I was young and wasn't much of a basketball fan.

Not to metion it has nothing to do with why LeBron is hated. The biggest reason he is hated is because of the decision and teaming up with Wade and Bosh. It was a douchebag way to sign with a team, even if he did it with good intentions.

When LeBron signed with the Heat, he picked them over the Knicks and the Bulls, two massive fan bases. Them, along with the Lakers who hate LeBron for Kobe reasons, you have a ton of people who hate him.

The Heat are shoved down the throat of everyone by the media. People hate that.

They have a lot of ******* bandwagon fans that annoy people.

He's really really good. And a lot of people like to root for the underdog. People hate on the best.

What I don't get is why so many LeBron apologists care that he isn't liked. Not everyone is going to like him, even though he is one of the all time greats. LeBron haters might be childish, but the LeBron apologists are just as bad.

InRoseWeTrust
06-09-2014, 10:09 AM
Time. The decision didn't help, but stilll - time. In 20-30 years, I think LeBron will be thought of very positively.

2-ONE-5
06-09-2014, 10:12 AM
For me it's I don't care who hates, that's your choice as long as you say he's one of the best players ever.

I love watching him play and I'm a Bulls fan. Now watching Wade play is extremely annoying for many reasons.

1. Complains that he was fouled every offensive trip.

2. Never commits a foul if you ask him.

3. Turns the ball over and then just stands there while LeBron normally chases it down and makes a play, then Wade is just cherry picking at the other end.

Wade was fun back when he played with Shaq, but now he is just whiny and riding on the coattails of one of the greatest.

1 and 2 go for James too

ayuntalo
06-09-2014, 10:29 AM
For me, i dont like him because

1) Flopping a lot
-i know this is common, but if you are the best player and best athlete you should not depend on flopping but honest defense. Be an example to the NBA

2) Ego maniac
-feels like he wants all the attention. The decision, really?? Lol. Also i feel like he always think what people will say or do.
Much rather have "ill do it my way" iverson mentality.
But he is a victim on this part. He was misguided by the media from highschool..

3) Teaming up with bosh and wade
-if you are as great at him. Dont you want to bring your team to the top and not team up with the other stars?
Wheres the competitive edge

4) social media
-he is everywhere. And i specially hate the espn stats that says like, first ever to have 28 pts 10 rebs and 8assist in just 34 mins.
What the heck?! So if someone have done it in 35 mins it doesnt count. BS!
-everything he does is news
-Jordan and Kobe got away with this. Kobe could have been slamed hard for his rape case and jordan for his gambling

basketfan4life
06-09-2014, 10:37 AM
First of all, Kobe hated to death, get that right.

For me, when he first entered the league i loved Melo better. But with the start of the second year it was apparent that he was better than Melo. My first dislike for him was because everybody was ready to crown him the king, compare him to MJ, saying better than Kobe, i mean he is comparable to MJ and better than Kobe now, but i was like "let the guy earn all these staff"... Even refs were incredibly generous to him. But year after year i was literally never missed a game between Lebron and Wade because they were just incredible. But when they joined forces, i mean a heck of a lot people were claiming lebron and wade are the first and second best players in the league. who does that? Beat them not join them. You can leave cleveland that is ok but do not join forces with wade and bosh. I hated him that moment and i still didn't fully forgive him for that.

But i have to say this, i don't hate LeBron now, i admire him. Because after all these years, after 2011 nba finals actually, he is fully concentrated on basketball. He is thriving for greatness and perfection. Working on the gaps of his game, even now getting better as a player. He was so much into out-of-basketball staff early in his carreer. Not now.

There your answer.

beyourself
06-09-2014, 10:38 AM
The LeBron woe is me threads are getting old.

goingfor28
06-09-2014, 10:40 AM
This should end will. I will not be participating in this one :laugh2: top many Jordan vs lebron arguments already

beyourself
06-09-2014, 10:40 AM
When LeBron joined forces with Wade many people considered him the 2nd or 3rd best player in the league. And many considered Bosh the best PF in the league.

I'm not saying that to slander LeBron. I'm just saying there is more to it than the National TV decision.

FYL_McVeezy
06-09-2014, 10:45 AM
What kind of question is this?

It stems from "The Decision"

LBJ was one of the most beloved players in the NBA prior to that moment.

KnicksorBust
06-09-2014, 10:51 AM
Leaving Cleveland and over-exposure.

The whole premise is a little faulty though because Jordan caught a ton of **** before he started winning. The real Jordan love affair came because of the Dream Team in 92 and his triumphant return to baskbetball after retiring too soon. He was a god 96-98.

BklynKnicks3
06-09-2014, 10:52 AM
one fought tooth and nail until he won didnt have a good team for first 7 years. The other a shamless coward that quit and although he is a great passer one of the most selfish acts ever was the decision. He wanted to be bigger then the game while wade n bosh held small press conf to say they are staying he disgraced cavs on tv tried to toy with knick fans by holding his circus near their practice gym. He act like ray allen did nothing wrong by joining a rival. I can go on n on he is a all time great player but might be the least likable athlete i ever seen. All about shortcuts i am almost sure he is on steroids as well it will just not come out for along time sinc ehe is a nba cash cow.

kingkenny01
06-09-2014, 10:53 AM
Lebron is hated because he left his home town, cavs teammates didn't know about him leaving until the decision, I think people have overblown how bad the decision was but that, the miami heat comments "not five.." etc.
I'm interested to see if lebron goes back to cleveland what will be his public perception. Will people dislike him leaving a team again, will people see him as taking a challenge. I don't know but i want him to go back to cleveland to find out.

faridk89
06-09-2014, 10:54 AM
The diffrence between now and then, the amount of technology that people can share their stupidness with. People are dumb, once the rot sets in, theres no turning back.

Once you host a one hour TV special on your decision in free agency, and at the end of it you leave for Miami... leaving your home town in the dust, you will be a hated man.

conway429
06-09-2014, 10:54 AM
I liked Lebron before The Decision.
Now this creation of the Miami Heat has made the NBA lame and resulted in so many bandwagon fans.
Its a lame situation and Lebron is responsible for it.

More people would still like him if he stayed in Cleveland because, as people mentioned before, fans like to see a guy stay with the team that drafted him. (Its a feel-good story, and it also gives less ammunition to the haters)

Lastly a combination of the flopping and the whining, as well as the me-first attitude, especially in interviews. His post-game last night was another example of him saying I like 25 times.

It's partially because hes so good as well, but not completely. Durant is on the same level as Lebron and he isn't guilty of any of the things I listed above. Lebron just gives you so many reasons to dislike him, and he doesn't care. Fans want a hero who is gracious and humble, as well as being a great player.

utahjazzno12fan
06-09-2014, 10:55 AM
I wasnít a big Jordan fan. Generally, I pulled against him in his trips to the Finals. I didnít dislike him though. You couldnít hate the guy. He did things the right way. He worked to make his team better and help his team to win.

I pulled for Magicís Lakers when the Bulls went up against them and won. I definitely pulled for my Jazz when they went up against him. But I also was glad when he came out of retirement and baseball to come back to the NBA.

I was a huge LeBron fan when he came into the league. I didnít become a outright Cleveland fan, though they were my second favorite team. I remember pulling for LeBron to win in their Eastern Conference Finals as my wife was in labor. We were all sitting in the hospital room with the game on. I even pulled for them against San Antonio.

That all changed with the Decision.

That showed me LeBron wanted championships handed to him. He felt entitled to them without having put in the work to get them. He wanted to circumvent how things are done to go to a situation where they would be the favorites to win without ever having played a game.

I would have had no problem with it if it was a situation at the end of his career. I had no problem with T-Mac trying to latch on with the Spurs, Garnett and Allen with the Celtics, Allen with the Heat, or Malone and Payton with the Lakers. Veterans try to catch on with teams to win one before they are done. You donít just up and do that without having put in the work.

And about Jordan joining the Wizards, that was totally different. He wasnít doing it trying to win a championship anyway. He was trying to help turn the Wizards around.

If LeBron signs on with a team after he is done with the Heat and tries to turn their fortunes around and win that way, I will probably be pulling for him.

As far as Kobe goes, I am not a Kobe fan either. He hasnít been one who wants the team around him be better. He has always been selfish. His attitude has hurt his team.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-09-2014, 11:07 AM
People don't like overly cocky people. In any walk of life. Lebron has done and said some things that rub people the wrong way.

First off, you cannot call yourself the King and not expect to get some flack. Also

Having The stones to televise an hour long show just to say where you are going to play basketball next year.
The giant "Chosen One" tatoo won't help
Calling fans Witnesses
After losing in the finals telling fans they can now go back to their crappy lives
The "not 4, not 5, not 6...." comment
The way he comes off in interviews
The widely known fact that he is unapproachable to the common fan when the camera is not around.
The fact that he thinks he is too good to do a radio interview
Etc
Etc
Etc

All those things will have people want him taken down a couple pegs. I have an extremely cocky co-worker, and I wouldn't mind seeing him lose his house, job, and hot wife. That's a horrible thing to say but that's how much he rubs me the wrong way. And he hasn't acted one quarter as bad as LBJ. But like I said, most people don't like overly cocky people. I believe that's why people give Durant a pass. He seems humble so he gets the benefit of the doubt

hidalgo
06-09-2014, 11:13 AM
me personally, i like LeBron. I don't understand all the hate for him, & i guarantee most of the people hating on him will miss him when he's gone & defend him like crazy(may take you 10-20 years after he retires, but it will hit you hard most likely). some of you need to enjoy this guy while he's still around, it goes by quick. luckily Jordan was very much loved, & people appreciated every game he played while he was around. social media era people have turned into pcker heads & have to whine about everything. i'm gonna appreciate this guy while he's around. he's not Michael Jordan, but will probably be top 4 all time, amazing

there was something about Jordan's personality that was really likable. he was so cool & it was just natural, he didn't have to try or anything, natural charm i guess (whether he was the nicest guy or not, he was lovable for sure)... Kobe never had that natural cool, natural charm MJ had. KB aloof, arrogant, awkward, & unlikable

i think LeBron is likable. but it's 50/50 with the nation.

beyourself
06-09-2014, 11:25 AM
To the casual fan LeBron's game isn't very aesthetic, especially the more bulkier Miami version of LeBron. To see him bull his way so dominantly and easily into the paint on drives and just stiff arm everybody out of the way on a power move just bores people. I know because I've known lots of people say that. Melo's game for example is more aesthetic. He's not a very aggressive outside player typically either.

He's not a graceful player. People liked seeing Jordan glide through to the air, the hangtime, the double clutching, the perfect jumpers, the everything.

LeBron's a bulldozer in comparison. Head down, stiff arm, get out of my way type player.

torocan
06-09-2014, 11:30 AM
When LeBron joined forces with Wade many people considered him the 2nd or 3rd best player in the league. And many considered Bosh the best PF in the league.

I'm not saying that to slander LeBron. I'm just saying there is more to it than the National TV decision.

People forget how good Wade and Bosh were viewed when they went to Miami.

While stars and superstars get stacked onto teams, the idea of taking 3 of the 5 best players in the NBA, getting together in the off season and turning a random team into a "contender" turned a lot of people off, myself included.

It's one thing for "stars" to end up together through the normal process (drafting, trades, normal free agency), it's another for 3 guys to get together, say they want to win a ring, then pick a team and make them a championship contender.

That's not to say that Lebron didn't have every right to go where he wanted to go, it just smacks too much of collusion. It undermines the strength and value of organizations and franchise management, and instead of being a competitive endeavor between franchises, it becomes a question of which clique you join as a player. What difference does it make if you have a great GM or a great Head Coach, or make all the right decisions in the draft and in trades if 3 of the best players in the NBA decide that they want to control the outcomes?

Yes, the Heat scored with Lebron, Bosh and Wade and have 2 championships to show for it, however put your shoe on the other foot. How would you feel if they had gone to LA? Or NY? Or the Bucks and basically attempted to "freeze out" the other 29 teams for the next 5-10 years?

From a purely competitive point of view, it's the cheap way out. Imagine if Magic, Bird, and Jordan all got together and said, "You know what, we're tired of waiting for a great team and fighting against each other. We know we're the best in the NBA... let's bail on our home teams and form a Superteam so we can win more chips!"

As fans we all lost out when Lebron, Wade and Bosh all went to one team. We lost every potential championship and play off battle that could have happened. We lost every opportunity to see truly epic basketball memories come to life.

Instead of seeing epic fights in the Eastern Conference, all we see is year in and year out is the Heat as the inevitable favorites to win the EC, with the only mystery being whether the West has a good enough team to knock them out.

The truly competitive want to compete against the best. Lebron, Wade and Bosh decided they'd rather have an easier path.

Sure, you can argue the ends justify the means... but in the end I will always see the Heat's accomplishments as somewhat tainted. No knock against Lebron's ability... he's the best player in the NBA. However, as the best player in the NBA I believe he had a greater responsibility to uphold the integrity of the game.

As for Jordan, Jordan stayed with the team that drafted him. The Bulls fought epic battles through some of the greatest players of that era to win those championships. Though non-Bulls fans felt that the Bulls were exceptionally lucky to have Jordan, nobody felt that the way they got him was unfair. They got him as the 3rd pick. 2 teams passed on him. The team wasn't especially stacked when he got there. And the team stayed together in spite of dog fights between Jordan, Phil Jackson, and Jerry Krause. When the Bulls lost against the Pistons they practically took his head off ... 3 years in a row -- that alone earned him significant sympathy and respect.

Greatness is defined as much by obstacles overcome as it is by inherent talent and performance.

What great obstacles did Lebron overcome on his road to his 2 championships? He was crowned "the King" before he even left high school. And other than a media storm of his own making what has he had to overcome on his road to greatness? And when things got tough he bailed out of Cleveland.

It wasn't like Cleveland was completely dysfunctional ala Minnesota (which never even made the play offs with Love). Cleveland was in the play offs and a legitimate team almost every year.

2005 - 1st round, 50-32
2006 - Finals, - 50-32
2007 - 2nd round, 45-37
2008 - ECF, 66-16
2009 - 2nd round, 61-21

Lebron left after a 60 win season... think about that. Lebron wasn't leaving a lottery team. He was leaving a team after 2 very good seasons.

Greatness is more than talent and skill. For me at least, character counts.

beyourself
06-09-2014, 11:39 AM
People forget how good Wade and Bosh were viewed when they went to Miami.

While stars and superstars get stacked onto teams, the idea of taking 3 of the 5 best players in the NBA, getting together in the off season and turning a random team into a "contender" turned a lot of people off, myself included.

It's one thing for "stars" to end up together through the normal process (drafting, trades, normal free agency), it's another for 3 guys to get together, say they want to win a ring, then pick a team and make them a championship contender.

That's not to say that Lebron didn't have every right to go where he wanted to go, it just smacks too much of collusion. It undermines the strength and value of organizations and franchise management, and instead of being a competitive endeavor between franchises, it becomes a question of which clique you join as a player. What difference does it make if you have a great GM or a great Head Coach, or make all the right decisions in the draft and in trades if 3 of the best players in the NBA decide that they want to control the outcomes?

Yes, the Heat scored with Lebron, Bosh and Wade and have 2 championships to show for it, however put your shoe on the other foot. How would you feel if they had gone to LA? Or NY? Or the Bucks and basically attempted to "freeze out" the other 29 teams for the next 5-10 years?

From a purely competitive point of view, it's the cheap way out. Imagine if Magic, Bird, and Jordan all got together and said, "You know what, we're tired of waiting for a great team and fighting against each other. We know we're the best in the NBA... let's bail on our home teams and form a Superteam so we can win more chips!"

As fans we all lost out when Lebron, Wade and Bosh all went to one team. We lost every potential championship and play off battle that could have happened. We lost every opportunity to see truly epic basketball memories come to life.

Instead of seeing epic fights in the Eastern Conference, all we see is year in and year out is the Heat as the inevitable favorites to win the EC, with the only mystery being whether the West has a good enough team to knock them out.

The truly competitive want to compete against the best. Lebron, Wade and Bosh decided they'd rather have an easier path.

Sure, you can argue the ends justify the means... but in the end I will always see the Heat's accomplishments as somewhat tainted. No knock against Lebron's ability... he's the best player in the NBA. However, as the best player in the NBA I believe he had a greater responsibility to uphold the integrity of the game.

As for Jordan, Jordan stayed with the team that drafted him. The Bulls fought epic battles through some of the greatest players of that era to win those championships. Though non-Bulls fans felt that the Bulls were exceptionally lucky to have Jordan, nobody felt that the way they got him was unfair. They got him as the 3rd pick. 2 teams passed on him. The team wasn't especially stacked when he got there. And the team stayed together in spite of dog fights between Jordan, Phil Jackson, and Jerry Krause. When the Bulls lost against the Pistons they practically took his head off ... 3 years in a row -- that alone earned him significant sympathy and respect.

Greatness is defined as much by obstacles overcome as it is by inherent talent and performance.

What great obstacles did Lebron overcome on his road to his 2 championships? He was crowned "the King" before he even left high school. And other than a media storm of his own making what has he had to overcome on his road to greatness? And when things got tough he bailed out of Cleveland.

It wasn't like Cleveland was completely dysfunctional ala Minnesota (which never even made the play offs with Love). Cleveland was in the play offs and a legitimate team almost every year.

2005 - 1st round, 50-32
2006 - Finals, - 50-32
2007 - 2nd round, 45-37
2008 - ECF, 66-16
2009 - 2nd round, 61-21

Lebron left after a 60 win season... think about that. Lebron wasn't leaving a lottery team. He was leaving a team after 2 very good seasons.

Greatness is more than talent and skill. For me at least, character counts.

Good post, I agree with a lot of your thoughts. My only thing is Cleveland was a pretty bad team, just being carried by LeBron. Not saying they were D-League level, but they were a lottery team with LeBron.

And good point. When LeBron left Cleveland, the rankings probably went something similar to this

1. LeBron
2. Durant
3. Wade
4. Kobe
5. Howard
6. Bosh

Integrity of the game was compromised.

sager729
06-09-2014, 11:45 AM
For me it's I don't care who hates, that's your choice as long as you say he's one of the best players ever.

I love watching him play and I'm a Bulls fan. Now watching Wade play is extremely annoying for many reasons.

1. Complains that he was fouled every offensive trip.

2. Never commits a foul if you ask him.

3. Turns the ball over and then just stands there while LeBron normally chases it down and makes a play, then Wade is just cherry picking at the other end.

Wade was fun back when he played with Shaq, but now he is just whiny and riding on the coattails of one of the greatest.

This really has nothing to even do with the question so why even post it?

Because I can and this is a public forum.

Anyways I was just saying I don't hate LeBron but hate watching Wade play to compare. If you don't like it, then don't read it.

Iggz53
06-09-2014, 11:57 AM
1. The Decision (the way he handled it, and joining with 2 other Top 10 players)
2. Constant flopping
3. Having a parade and declaring the Heat 7-time champions before playing a game (gives off sense of entitlement)
4. Isolated antics (dancing on the court from the bench during live play, calling Charles Barkley stupid, etc)

FlashBolt
06-09-2014, 11:58 AM
All these people saying people don't like cocky people are the same ones who will praise Jordan and Kobe for saying they'll beat any one vs one or that they'll destroy this player in their prime.. People hate LeBron because he threatens their favorite player's legacy. If LeBron goes up, someone gets bump down. Soon it will be Kobe and rest assured, as the years go by, he just keeps adding to his legacy while your favorite player has to withstand it. It would hurt for me to acknowledge that Durant is better than James because James has been my favorite player for awhile but if Durant is truly better, I just have to appreciate it. Players like Kobe and James come once in a lifetime.. Think of the NBA without James or Kobe, there will be a huge hole. Just enjoy the game and the players.

RaiderLakersA's
06-09-2014, 11:59 AM
I agree with others who say that Jordan would not be as beloved if he played in the current era. The fact is those of us who were around to watch Jordan back then and who heard of some of his transgressions on and off the court already have a sober view of him.

The difference is that there isn't a media or marketing machine to smooth out Jordan's rough edges. Or more precisely, the advent of social media removes the monopoly that the mainstream media had back in the Jordan era. These days we don't have to rely on reporters -- many of whom rode Jordan's ... jock... like it was the sweetest thing since sugar cane -- for spin and heavily censored "insights."

The Jordan brand would not have soared to the untouchable heights that it did back then. The scrutiny now is much greater.

I'm not saying that Jordan wouldn't have had millions and millions of fans. I'm simply saying that there would have been far more people who viewed him the way we view Tiger Woods, or Kobe Bryant...or LeBron.

No, it's not fair to toss LeBron in with Woods and Bryant, given their scandals. But that's the life of being the pre-annointed best player in the game...and then living up to the title. There's nothing we love more than building up our heroes only to tear them down. In fact, we love doing that so much that we'll even manufacture reasons to do so.

Pierzynski4Prez
06-09-2014, 12:15 PM
He spurned 2 major markets which is a good reason. Jordan never hit FA, never teased anyone in that regards.

Bring The Heat
06-09-2014, 12:25 PM
People don't like overly cocky people. In any walk of life. Lebron has done and said some things that rub people the wrong way.

First off, you cannot call yourself the King and not expect to get some flack. Also

Having The stones to televise an hour long show just to say where you are going to play basketball next year.
The giant "Chosen One" tatoo won't help
Calling fans Witnesses
After losing in the finals telling fans they can now go back to their crappy lives
The "not 4, not 5, not 6...." comment
The way he comes off in interviews
The widely known fact that he is unapproachable to the common fan when the camera is not around.
The fact that he thinks he is too good to do a radio interview
Etc
Etc
Etc

All those things will have people want him taken down a couple pegs. I have an extremely cocky co-worker, and I wouldn't mind seeing him lose his house, job, and hot wife. That's a horrible thing to say but that's how much he rubs me the wrong way. And he hasn't acted one quarter as bad as LBJ. But like I said, most people don't like overly cocky people. I believe that's why people give Durant a pass. He seems humble so he gets the benefit of the doubt


Of course any great player has their moments of being cocky that is to be expected... But for the most part LeBron is a humble individual if you hear him speak... He always gives credit to his teammates... Probably the most unselfish superstar we seen on the basketball court who gets excited seeing his teammates succeed.. would you not agree?

beyourself
06-09-2014, 12:27 PM
Let me get this straight though. All great players must be loved? That's what all you LeBron woe is me people seem to be implying.

Question: Tim Duncan is one of the all time greats, undisputed best ever PF, why isn't he loved?

Bring The Heat
06-09-2014, 12:28 PM
To the casual fan LeBron's game isn't very aesthetic, especially the more bulkier Miami version of LeBron. To see him bull his way so dominantly and easily into the paint on drives and just stiff arm everybody out of the way on a power move just bores people. I know because I've known lots of people say that. Melo's game for example is more aesthetic. He's not a very aggressive outside player typically either.

He's not a graceful player. People liked seeing Jordan glide through to the air, the hangtime, the double clutching, the perfect jumpers, the everything.

LeBron's a bulldozer in comparison. Head down, stiff arm, get out of my way type player.


Well first off it's not LeBron James fault he is 6'8 260 lbs and uses his size, speed, strength to his advantage. Secondly, his whole game isn't just that because if it was he would not be great. He has tremendous passing ability, he sees the court like not many players do. As we saw last night he can kill you from the perimeter when he gets his shot going.. He dominates on the defensive end when he sets his mind to it. He defended the very quick and agile Tony Parker who lives in the paint. Learn to appreciate his all around game b/c not many people have had his particular skill set.

Bring The Heat
06-09-2014, 12:32 PM
All these people saying people don't like cocky people are the same ones who will praise Jordan and Kobe for saying they'll beat any one vs one or that they'll destroy this player in their prime.. People hate LeBron because he threatens their favorite player's legacy. If LeBron goes up, someone gets bump down. Soon it will be Kobe and rest assured, as the years go by, he just keeps adding to his legacy while your favorite player has to withstand it. It would hurt for me to acknowledge that Durant is better than James because James has been my favorite player for awhile but if Durant is truly better, I just have to appreciate it. Players like Kobe and James come once in a lifetime.. Think of the NBA without James or Kobe, there will be a huge hole. Just enjoy the game and the players.


Yeah that's what boggles my mind.... Everyone saying they dislike LeBron b/c he is cocky.. Man has there ever been any player cockier than Jordan or Kobe? I remember these dudes talking mad trash... Which is fine if you are a great player you have the right to be cocky at times when you are balling. LeBron for the most part is actually humble and always giving credit to his teammates for success..

krazylegz
06-09-2014, 12:41 PM
jordan had many many haters in his hay day....dont worry,one day,lebron will be spoken of with high praise by the masses,while they all hate on the new up and coming heir to the throne...just how it works

FlashBolt
06-09-2014, 12:44 PM
Let me get this straight though. All great players must be loved? That's what all you LeBron woe is me people seem to be implying.

Question: Tim Duncan is one of the all time greats, undisputed best ever PF, why isn't he loved?

Tim Duncan isn't loved? That is ridiculous. He might not be as flashy because of his quiet persona but he's definitely one of the most well-liked athletes. Rightfully so, Duncan deserves to be loved.

IndyRealist
06-09-2014, 12:45 PM
Untrue. In the late 80s and early 90s, everyone who was not a Bulls fan hated Jordan. Only after he retired the first time did people start thinking of him as more myth than man. Then he came back and retained that mythical air. He wasn't considered the GOAT until after his second retirement.

beyourself
06-09-2014, 12:46 PM
Well first off it's not LeBron James fault he is 6'8 260 lbs and uses his size, speed, strength to his advantage. Secondly, his whole game isn't just that because if it was he would not be great. He has tremendous passing ability, he sees the court like not many players do. As we saw last night he can kill you from the perimeter when he gets his shot going.. He dominates on the defensive end when he sets his mind to it. He defended the very quick and agile Tony Parker who lives in the paint. Learn to appreciate his all around game b/c not many people have had his particular skill set.

Oh for sure LeBron is a great passer. He's the best passing player I've ever seen minus Point Guards. He's also one of the top slashing players I've ever seen. But that doesn't make it look good. His passing is still not aesthetic to the casual fan.

RaiderLakersA's
06-09-2014, 12:46 PM
jordan had many many haters in his hay day....dont worry,one day,lebron will be spoken of with high praise by the masses,while they all hate on the new up and coming heir to the throne...just how it works

I suspect that will happen right after the Heat wins this series and LeBron receives another Finals MVP. Despite what some may think, the LeBron haters are already starting to recede faster than his hairline. Not that hate was ever a rational thing, but eventually they'll hate LeBron less, yet hate his fans all the more.

beyourself
06-09-2014, 12:47 PM
Tim Duncan isn't loved? That is ridiculous. He might not be as flashy because of his quiet persona but he's definitely one of the most well-liked athletes. Rightfully so, Duncan deserves to be loved.

He's got a pretty small fanbase. LeBron doesn't have a massive fanbase either. Nobody is entitled to having lots of fans.

NJrockPD
06-09-2014, 12:54 PM
Remember having that friend who only wanted to play a game when they were winning. That is Lebron James now. He was the best, but there was still too much competition so he got the super friends together. Now without the competition it's not as much fun to watch. I feel like his championships were rigged by the imbalance of talent. These are a couple of the many reasons I don't like him.

FlashBolt
06-09-2014, 12:55 PM
He's got a pretty small fanbase. LeBron doesn't have a massive fanbase either. Nobody is entitled to having lots of fans.

Loved vs popularity is completely different.. You can be a nobody but be loved.

Hawkize31
06-09-2014, 12:56 PM
1. The Decision (the way he handled it, and joining with 2 other Top 10 players)
2. Constant flopping
3. Having a parade and declaring the Heat 7-time champions before playing a game (gives off sense of entitlement)
4. Isolated antics (dancing on the court from the bench during live play, calling Charles Barkley stupid, etc)

At least get the quote and context right if you want to hold it against him.

The Miami Heat 'announcer' said to Lebron: "But we also know you three kings came down here to win championships - not one"

Lebron infamously replied "not two, not three, etc..."

So, you can interpret that in different ways, but for me, I don't hear that as Lebron saying "We are for sure winning the championship every year - no one else has a chance." I hear it as "We formed this team with the goal of winning a championship every year."

And I don't understand why people are so mad about that. Isn't that the goal of every team every year? Lets be realistic - when you assemble a team with the likes of James, Wade, and Bosh, there is an expectation to win every year. Lebron acknowledged that and confirmed it as their goal. I guarantee you if Jordan or Kobe honestly answered the question of how many titles they would like(d) to win/have won, the answer would be "all of them". Lebron chose poor words but basically said the same thing.

FlashBolt
06-09-2014, 12:56 PM
Remember having that friend who only wanted to play a game when they were winning. That is Lebron James now. He was the best, but there was still too much competition so he got the super friends together. Now without the competition it's not as much fun to watch. I feel like his championships were rigged by the imbalance of talent. These are a couple of the many reasons I don't like him.

Is that why most people have Spurs winning?

hoosiercubsfan
06-09-2014, 12:57 PM
I loved Jordan and am old enough to have been able to watch his entire career. And I even liked Lebron when he was with the Cavs. My disgust with him came with the whole decision broadcast. Lost a lot of respect for him with that. To make matters worse he went to the heat and as a Pacer fan its pretty much a given that you have to hate them lol.

With all of that said I really don't hate Lebron just don't hold him in the same regard. Though do believe he is the best player in the NBA by far right now.

papipapsmanny
06-09-2014, 01:04 PM
Because he is insecure about his own talents, its so annoying. He feels the need to make passive aggressive comments, like when he called out Durant for getting to take so many shots.

Jordan just did

Trash talking is annoying but I rather you do it like Richard Sherman and blatantly come out and do it, rather than what Lebron does, which is very passive aggressive, like a woman its infuriating.

Its like Dude you are the best all around player in the league, why do you feel the need to that

torocan
06-09-2014, 01:10 PM
Is that why most people have Spurs winning?

People have the Spurs potentially winning because they are the superior team in terms of coaching, management, system and execution, not because they have the most talented players.

Here's a hypothetical to consider... if you gave Popovich and Buford Lebron, Wade and Bosh and put them in the Eastern Conference, do you believe the team would be better or worse? Do you think that Pops wouldn't have them in the Finals for the last 4 years? Do you really think they'd win fewer championships?

Go down the list of Head Coaches in the NBA... how many Head Coaches and Franchises could NOT get Lebron, Wade and Bosh into the finals for the last 4 years and win as many if not more championships than the Heat has to date?

The Heat stacked the deck so much that the only team that's on their level has not only arguably the best Head Coach in NBA history, but arguably the best Franchise management in the NBA for the last decade and change.

And how many teams can have a Head Coach of that stature, or a top flight organization, let alone have both?

The Heat is stacked. That's how they were built. If they lose it isn't because of talent, it's because that talent wasn't used to its maximum potential.

NJrockPD
06-09-2014, 01:11 PM
Is that why most people have Spurs winning?

So you're telling me the team with back to back NBA titles and the best player in the NBA are big underdogs?

beyourself
06-09-2014, 01:14 PM
Loved vs popularity is completely different.. You can be a nobody but be loved.

If you're fanbase is ridiculously small then obviously you aren't receiving a lot of love. This is just another woe is me LeBron thread.

FlashBolt
06-09-2014, 01:17 PM
If you're fanbase is ridiculously small then obviously you aren't receiving a lot of love. This is just another woe is me LeBron thread.

Uhm, no. Tim Duncan is known worldwide to basketball fans. He's not as flashy and thus not as popular. It's stupid to say he's not as loved because you rarely see anyone talk bad about Tim Duncan. You can be a popular person and be a douchebag.. Tim Duncan is loved. Idk how you can argue that he's not receiving a lot just because he's rarely mentioned.

beyourself
06-09-2014, 01:18 PM
Uhm, no. Tim Duncan is known worldwide to basketball fans. He's not as flashy and thus not as popular. It's stupid to say he's not as loved because you rarely see anyone talk bad about Tim Duncan. You can be a popular person and be a douchebag.. Tim Duncan is loved. Idk how you can argue that he's not receiving a lot just because he's rarely mentioned.

I think you are confusing loved for ignored.

Iggz53
06-09-2014, 01:19 PM
At least get the quote and context right if you want to hold it against him.

The Miami Heat 'announcer' said to Lebron: "But we also know you three kings came down here to win championships - not one"

Lebron infamously replied "not two, not three, etc..."

So, you can interpret that in different ways, but for me, I don't hear that as Lebron saying "We are for sure winning the championship every year - no one else has a chance." I hear it as "We formed this team with the goal of winning a championship every year."

And I don't understand why people are so mad about that. Isn't that the goal of every team every year? Lets be realistic - when you assemble a team with the likes of James, Wade, and Bosh, there is an expectation to win every year. Lebron acknowledged that and confirmed it as their goal. I guarantee you if Jordan or Kobe honestly answered the question of how many titles they would like(d) to win/have won, the answer would be "all of them". Lebron chose poor words but basically said the same thing.

You interpret it the way you want, others interpret it the way they want. Many people saw a man boasting about winning championships because of how much talent he was able to join.

D-Leethal
06-09-2014, 01:43 PM
The notion that LeBron wasn't hated and chided before "The Decision" is a cute one. I do genuinely believe that The Decision did trigger some new dislike among some people, but for most it just seems like a simple justification for the actual petty reasons they despise the man.

People hate great players. I don't really despise any athlete that's not great, thinking of those that I do or have disliked in the past. We get turned off by hype all the time and don't like when great players threaten our beloved great players (like, Peyton Manning v. Tom Brady for me). That's the crux of it 9 times out of 10. People come up with these other reasons to more justify their hate and make them feel better about it, but usually it just boils down to great players having great success on the court and people not liking that.

Stuff like whining, flopping, ego, etc. etc. can be said about almost 80% of the league probably. That's not the real reason people dislike the guy. It's how they justify it, but it's not the reason. If he was a league-average player and behaved the exact same he did, no one would care.


And yeah, it's harder these days. Literally everything is news. Every soundbite is overanalyzed. Every tweet is dissected. Every reaction on the court is caught by someone. Everything is public. Everything is scrutinized. It all provides more phony sanctimony to people's core hatred of players.

LeBron was not hated in Cleveland. That happened overnight. Your misremembering big time to support your all-things apologetic stance towards LeBron.

ink
06-09-2014, 01:53 PM
Social media, charisma, loyalty issues (perceived or otherwise), and I hate to say it, but appearance. Body language and scowls don't attract people and a lot of casual fans (that make the reputations of superstars) judge pretty superficially.

ink
06-09-2014, 01:54 PM
LeBron was not hated in Cleveland. That happened overnight. Your misremembering big time to support your all-things apologetic stance towards LeBron.

I actually remember Lebron getting heavily hated on while he was in Cleveland. He was mocked constantly for not producing in big game situations.

ink
06-09-2014, 01:56 PM
MJ had tons of charisma. Only Magic Johnson had that kind of appeal among fans. So, it's not like every generation even has the appeal MJ had.

Bruno
06-09-2014, 02:01 PM
because people don't respect LBJ for teaming up with Wade and Bosh. simple as that. what he did was unprecedented.

RowBTrice
06-09-2014, 02:02 PM
"The Decision"

Triple_Ocho
06-09-2014, 02:06 PM
I just want to know your thoughts,
Why is LeBron not loved by most nba fans when he is clearly the best player right now?
(Probably 50% loves him, 50% hates him)

While Jordan, as i remember was clearly hailed by everyone. I was still young back then but i dont remember people hating on him.

While growing up, i noticed people always love the great players,
Kobe, tmac, vince.
But when it comes to lebron?
Im nt so sure..

Kobe and Lebron are hated by most people outside their own fan bases. People hate Lebron because we actually get a look into his personal life. Social media and the huge amount of media coverage today would've hurt Jordan's image just like it hurts lebron. I don't think Lebron ever punched any teammates... Not even Delonte West lol... Jordan thought Steve Kerr deserved a punch to the face haha. Jordan was a total ahole... Just like Kobe is a total ahole. Bottom line is we hear about these issues and problems faster today than we would've during Jordan's hayday

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-09-2014, 02:10 PM
Of course any great player has their moments of being cocky that is to be expected... But for the most part LeBron is a humble individual if you hear him speak... He always gives credit to his teammates... Probably the most unselfish superstar we seen on the basketball court who gets excited seeing his teammates succeed.. would you not agree?

A couple things. I should have clarified. I don't hate Lebron at all. I just laid out all the things I hear his detractors say.I don't mind a person of his stature being arrogant. I figure if a douche at my job thinks he had the right to be cocky, why wouldn't a professional athlete feel that way when he has had everyone kissing his hairy bean bag his entire life. But a LOT of people don't think like me.
Second, after all the things that I did lay out, you cannot truly believe he is a humble person.

He is NOT by far the most unselfish superstar. That would be Magic who averaged 4 more assist per game. And always gives his teammates the most credit. Many other players pass way more than Lebron like Stockton, Nash, CP3 and others. LeBron is the most unselfish scorers. Him and Oscar. TMac was pretty good at giving as well.

ink
06-09-2014, 02:11 PM
because people don't respect LBJ for teaming up with Wade and Bosh. simple as that. what he did was unprecedented.

It felt like collusion and violated a sense of fairness that is already tenuous in the NBA.

ink
06-09-2014, 02:13 PM
I just want to know your thoughts,
Why is LeBron not loved by most nba fans when he is clearly the best player right now?
(Probably 50% loves him, 50% hates him)

While Jordan, as i remember was clearly hailed by everyone. I was still young back then but i dont remember people hating on him.

While growing up, i noticed people always love the great players,
Kobe, tmac, vince.
But when it comes to lebron?
Im nt so sure..

Kobe and Lebron are hated by most people outside their own fan bases. People hate Lebron because we actually get a look into his personal life. Social media and the huge amount of media coverage today would've hurt Jordan's image just like it hurts lebron. I don't think Lebron ever punched any teammates... Not even Delonte West lol... Jordan thought Steve Kerr deserved a punch to the face haha. Jordan was a total ahole... Just like Kobe is a total ahole. Bottom line is we hear about these issues and problems faster today than we would've during Jordan's hayday

I don't think that's the bottom line. MJs personal stuff wasn't that secret at the time and we still loved the guy.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-09-2014, 02:18 PM
All these people saying people don't like cocky people are the same ones who will praise Jordan and Kobe for saying they'll beat any one vs one or that they'll destroy this player in their prime.. People hate LeBron because he threatens their favorite player's legacy. If LeBron goes up, someone gets bump down. Soon it will be Kobe and rest assured, as the years go by, he just keeps adding to his legacy while your favorite player has to withstand it. It would hurt for me to acknowledge that Durant is better than James because James has been my favorite player for awhile but if Durant is truly better, I just have to appreciate it. Players like Kobe and James come once in a lifetime.. Think of the NBA without James or Kobe, there will be a huge hole. Just enjoy the game and the players.
False. So you honestly think only MJ and Kobe fans don't like Lebron? You couldn't be more far off and for evidence, go take a look at some game threads. Take a look at ESPN map regarding who America wants to win. 49 states to 1. Ill let you guess the one.

Daze9900
06-09-2014, 02:20 PM
I don't want to hear this social media is the reason crap. Does social media exacerbate the situation yes. I'm 32 years old so I'm old enough to have been through the Michael era and young enough to know what an iPhone is and how to use it. The truth of the matter is that Lebron is to blame for the his hate or lack of people embracing him. Michael played in a different era. He pioneered endorsement deals with Gatorade and Nike making him a global icon. Michael had so many endorsements as well from McDonald's to whatever else you could think of. Kids in third world countries with no food knew who Michael was and loved him even if they never saw his games. Lebron with his pursuit of getting championships made a conscious effort not to take any endorsement thrown at him. Whether he thinks they distract him or he's just not that guy that's on him. It would increase his brand the more people see his face with products they like. The decision is a horse that has been beaten to death he did decide to abandon Cleveland to go form a super team. Has it been in the past? Yeah it has but not to this level where you have people in the same damn draft class having the top 3 in 3 positions. It was so premeditated and I think that's what people have problems with. Shoe deals are whatever now people still buying the same foams and jordans and everybody has a shoe deal. **** Sebastian Telfair got over 100 mil from Addidas before he even stepped onto an NBA court. Then he took flopping to a new level. The entire heat did. Back in the days you used to have maybe one person on a team that was really good at drawing charges and that person usually was the one always trying to get the call. Now this dude rolling his head around acting like he got shot and the refs bail him out. It's so petty. You never seen superstars flopping and flailing around like that back in the day. He brought this on himself, the only saving grace is that he is actually winning now.

Chronz
06-09-2014, 02:30 PM
social climate can be gauged without social media, so I agree on that one point made here.

JPS
06-09-2014, 02:31 PM
I just want to know your thoughts,
Why is LeBron not loved by most nba fans when he is clearly the best player right now?
(Probably 50% loves him, 50% hates him)

While Jordan, as i remember was clearly hailed by everyone. I was still young back then but i dont remember people hating on him.

While growing up, i noticed people always love the great players,
Kobe, tmac, vince.
But when it comes to lebron?
Im nt so sure..

Jordan was hated immensely his first 6-8 years. Then he won a title and the first dream team happened right after. As the clear leader and best player above magic and Larry he was no longer Chicago's player he was America's. There was no internet, league pass back then the spotlight on that team was crazy. All the players on that team had an incr ease in popularity, but none more than MJ and Barkley. He then won 5 more titles effectively shutting up all of the haters.

When Lebron is 50 he will be loved and whoever the next one is will be hated on. Media was obviously different then also.

As for your list of loved players (Kobe, Tmac, VC) would be some of the tops of my list of most hated players on PSD.

ink
06-09-2014, 02:42 PM
I just want to know your thoughts,
Why is LeBron not loved by most nba fans when he is clearly the best player right now?
(Probably 50% loves him, 50% hates him)

While Jordan, as i remember was clearly hailed by everyone. I was still young back then but i dont remember people hating on him.

While growing up, i noticed people always love the great players,
Kobe, tmac, vince.
But when it comes to lebron?
Im nt so sure..

Kobe and Lebron are hated by most people outside their own fan bases. People hate Lebron because we actually get a look into his personal life. Social media and the huge amount of media coverage today would've hurt Jordan's image just like it hurts lebron. I don't think Lebron ever punched any teammates... Not even Delonte West lol... Jordan thought Steve Kerr deserved a punch to the face haha. Jordan was a total ahole... Just like Kobe is a total ahole. Bottom line is we hear about these issues and problems faster today than we would've during Jordan's hayday

I don't care about any players legacy. When the media talks about legacy it gives me the dumb chills.

Lebron isn't charismatic, and certainly not as charismatic as MJ. Nothing he can do about that. He's still the best player in the world.

Bruno
06-09-2014, 02:59 PM
It felt like collusion and violated a sense of fairness that is already tenuous in the NBA.

it was collusion.

ink
06-09-2014, 03:05 PM
It felt like collusion and violated a sense of fairness that is already tenuous in the NBA.

it was collusion.

I'm still amazed there was no MLB-like collusion investigation. So, the league has to accept some of the criticism for Lebron's popularity problem.

Chronz
06-09-2014, 03:25 PM
How do you prove collusion when everything the team tried to do accomplish beforehand would have made it impossible to sign all 3?

Seriously, fill me in on that one.

ink
06-09-2014, 03:27 PM
How do you prove collusion when everything the team tried to do accomplish beforehand would have made it impossible to sign all 3?

Seriously, fill me in on that one.

Not clear on the question.

Chronz
06-09-2014, 03:44 PM
I don't care about any players legacy. When the media talks about legacy it gives me the dumb chills.

Lebron isn't charismatic, and certainly not as charismatic as MJ. Nothing he can do about that. He's still the best player in the world.

I get the same feeling when people talk about popularity, charisma and all that mostly off the court stuff.

Chronz
06-09-2014, 03:45 PM
Not clear on the question.

U: Collusion

Me: On what grounds

:oldguy:

Bartlee23
06-09-2014, 03:47 PM
I just want to know your thoughts,
Why is LeBron not loved by most nba fans when he is clearly the best player right now?
(Probably 50% loves him, 50% hates him)

While Jordan, as i remember was clearly hailed by everyone. I was still young back then but i dont remember people hating on him.

While growing up, i noticed people always love the great players,
Kobe, tmac, vince.
But when it comes to lebron?
Im nt so sure..

The reason why Lebron is hated more than Jordan IMO is quite simple.... look at it this way do you play video games? .

It's like using cheat codes in a single player game. Does it make it more fun? Maybe but it's less challenging. Lebron used the " cheat codes " to get his titles. Lebron brought the media into this with his " Decision " and has no one to blame but himself for that.

Jordan was definitely not liked by all either. If he was playing against your favorite team, you hated him. It's as simple as that. People tend to bring up personal things Jordan did in his life but that has nothing to do with what he did on the court.

ink
06-09-2014, 03:50 PM
I don't care about any players legacy. When the media talks about legacy it gives me the dumb chills.

Lebron isn't charismatic, and certainly not as charismatic as MJ. Nothing he can do about that. He's still the best player in the world.

I get the same feeling when people talk about popularity, charisma and all that mostly off the court stuff.

Well then don't post in a thread about likes and dislikes. It's obviously subjective and opinion based. You can't quantify how a guy is unpopular lol.

Jeffy25
06-09-2014, 03:51 PM
If I recall correctly, it took awhile for Jordan to be loved.

He was fiercely competitive, and a lot of fans, players, coaches, and people didn't like him for the longest time...after the rings though, he started to be viewed in a better light.....as the best of all time light that is.

It's been 20 years since he played and was awesome.....we have revisionist history sometimes....and we like to remember things like that in a better light than maybe it really was.




Lebron is also a huge douchebag. The 'decision', the big, flamboyant ceremony the Heat have where he says they'll win 8 rings. He is so overly dramatic, he complains about calls all the time when he gets a superstar treatment any way. He is a cocky *******.

Jordan was too, but Jordan wasn't as extreme as Lebron.


In 20-30 years from now, Lebron will probably be loved the way Jordan is today.



Me, I don't like Lebron, but I am rooting to see greatness. You always want to see the best ever from day 1. Lebron has the chance to be the best ever. If he can win 5 in a row, that would be beyond epic. He is on his way to becoming the best ever....even if he loses out on a few titles, he can do it.....but it doesn't change his personality.


I would rather see Durant winning chips. He seems like a good dude, and he is a beast. But he is in a bad situation in OKC where Brooks is incompetent, and Westbrook shoots too much. Hopefully they figure out a way to help him out.

ink
06-09-2014, 03:51 PM
Not clear on the question.

U: Collusion

Me: On what grounds

:oldguy:

Ask Bruno. He made the unequivocal statement. I said there needed to be an investigation at the time to clear things up.

On the grounds of tampering and pre-planning.

Jeffy25
06-09-2014, 03:56 PM
People don't like overly cocky people. In any walk of life. Lebron has done and said some things that rub people the wrong way.

First off, you cannot call yourself the King and not expect to get some flack. Also

Having The stones to televise an hour long show just to say where you are going to play basketball next year.
The giant "Chosen One" tatoo won't help
Calling fans Witnesses
After losing in the finals telling fans they can now go back to their crappy lives
The "not 4, not 5, not 6...." comment
The way he comes off in interviews
The widely known fact that he is unapproachable to the common fan when the camera is not around.
The fact that he thinks he is too good to do a radio interview
Etc
Etc
Etc

All those things will have people want him taken down a couple pegs. I have an extremely cocky co-worker, and I wouldn't mind seeing him lose his house, job, and hot wife. That's a horrible thing to say but that's how much he rubs me the wrong way. And he hasn't acted one quarter as bad as LBJ. But like I said, most people don't like overly cocky people. I believe that's why people give Durant a pass. He seems humble so he gets the benefit of the doubt

This def sums up why he isn't liked



There is a good kind of cocky. I think Bryce Harper is a good kind of cocky (some people don't like him, but I do).

He knows he belongs, he knows he is great. But he still hustles and works his tail off, so you kind of find it endearing that he expects to become great and amazing, and an all time great.....because while he has the attitude of greatness, he still has the work ethic and drive to be great (he has to stay healthy for it to happen though).

But Harper is more charismatic than James. James isn't charismatic. He's just cocky, period.

Chronz
06-09-2014, 04:01 PM
Well then don't post in a thread about likes and dislikes. It's obviously subjective and opinion based. You can't quantify how a guy is unpopular lol.

I dont know if you can or cant, Im not that interested to find out but I've seen headlines on people trying.

Agreed on everything else tho, I usually limit my posting on these topics but I noticed you (+Bruno) came out the woodwork and felt like engaging a few old foes. Better discussion on this weird topic with you guys than most threads these days.

ManRam
06-09-2014, 04:05 PM
because people don't respect LBJ for teaming up with Wade and Bosh. simple as that. what he did was unprecedented.

I wish Bosh/Wade/Bron signing with Miami wasn't truly unprecedented.

Could've been T-Mac/Hill/Duncan first!! :sigh:

Raps18-19 Champ
06-09-2014, 04:06 PM
People will love him when he retires.

sammyvine
06-09-2014, 04:28 PM
He is ridiculously arrogant.

I know its hard not to be when your the greatest athlete in the world, but a bit of humanity wont hurt.

I know Jordan was arrogant but he was just so damn good and his career is almost flawless so you kinda overlook all that. Stayed with the team that drafted him, won 6 rings and 6 finals mvp and probably the most compettiive player of all time.

Lo Porto
06-09-2014, 04:35 PM
#1 - the NBA needed Jordan. Magic and Bird were aging and MJ represented something new and vibrant for the league. The NBA sold Jordan in and on everything. You never, ever heard the NBA shedding any bad light on MJ. Everything he did that would be scrutinized today was considered "competitive" back then. He could do no wrong. And on the court, he was given free reign.

#2 - Everybody around now has experienced social media, email, and the internet. MJ emerged right before that boom. So anybody who grew up in this digital era has been told over and over again that Jordan is the best ever since society seems to always live in the now. Jordan was created as an untouchable false idol.

#3 - LeBron makes people feel nervous about the status of their untouchable false idol. If you talk about Buddha in front of a devout Christian, they get a little antsy. Well, when you praise LeBron for being in the same conversation as Jordan, it becomes blasphemy whether it's true or not.

#4 - the Decision. Not much more to say. Leaving to win titles should be completely understandable. People wanted to go to Chicago to join MJ (Rodman, Kukoc, Harper, etc.). Nobody would have ever gone to Cleveland to join LeBron.

#5 - We live in a "glory for me" world. People want to see greedy players because that's been the bulk of stars since the MJ days. Duncan isn't popular - the guy who jacks 25 shots a game is. When LeBron makes the right basketball play and passes from the double team to the wide open guy, people bash him for not shooting.


And there are other minor factors, but that mix of major factors pretty much paints the picture.

Chronz
06-09-2014, 05:30 PM
I wish Bosh/Wade/Bron signing with Miami wasn't truly unprecedented.

Could've been T-Mac/Hill/Duncan first!! :sigh:

Its not really that unprecedented, Wilt-West-Baylor all posted the same statistical marks the year before joining, not too dissimilar

Jamiecballer
06-09-2014, 05:43 PM
1. The decision
2. Social media
3. Kobe
4. Jordan

Iggz53
06-09-2014, 05:48 PM
Its not really that unprecedented, Wilt-West-Baylor all posted the same statistical marks the year before joining, not too dissimilar

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Wilt was traded to LA and he was 32. West and Baylor were both drafted by the Lakers and spent their entire careers there. You could maybe argue their production was similar but not in the context of how they came together.

NYKNYGNYY
06-09-2014, 06:11 PM
obviously its the way he conducted himself with the news conference for "the decision" would Jordan have done that? who knows I doubt it but I guess when your that much of a star you can do whatever....except for the fact that he had to create a super team to win when he could of won with a decent team....

almost everybody loved LeBron when he was in Cleveland I know I did

Bring The Heat
06-09-2014, 07:01 PM
I still don't understand why people say LeBron is not a humble person? He clearly always gives credit to his teammates ... Dude gets a kick out of his teammates hitting shots.... Do people actually hear this guy in post game conferences or interviews? Not to mention he's a big family guy ... I don't see the huge "arrogance" everybody points out... Aside from that "not 1 not 2 not 3" moment... which everybody seems to hold against him forever.

How about off the court issues? when the hell have you ever heard of LeBron getting in any sort of trouble since he's been in the league with the law? Most kids at 18 years old going straight in the NBA you would see do something stupid.

Storch
06-09-2014, 07:25 PM
If he stayed in the Cavs and did not leave to join Wade and Bosh to chase rings then he would definitely be more loved.

smiddy012
06-09-2014, 07:50 PM
I know most don't agree with this, but I also know most people haven't observed Lebron as Cav as closely as I have.

I believe, well I would say I know, that Lebron threw his Cavs team out to dry his last series against Boston. Sure, Lebron filled the stat sheet, but he dramatically shifted his focus in the series - from being "carry the world on his shoulders Lebron" to "passive/aggressive, show me why I should stay here Lebron."

He didn't leave it "all out" on the court in that series, like he always had before, and since. You'd have to had to watched the series very closely to see what I'm talking about. Something must'v happened that series to make him seriously question his commitment to that organization. Because his play went from night to day.

KnicksorBust
06-09-2014, 07:53 PM
For the record, anyone who has a problem with the decision should do a little research. I have no problem with this:

The announcement, which was not made until nearly 30 minutes into the program, was part of a conversation between James and Gray.[7] Broadcast from the Boys and Girls Club of Greenwich, Connecticut, the show raised $2.5 million for the charity.[8] The show raised an additional $3.5 million from advertisement revenue which was donated to other various charities.[8]

Jeffy25
06-09-2014, 07:54 PM
If he stayed in the Cavs and did not leave to join Wade and Bosh to chase rings then he would definitely be more loved.

That's not a good enough reason to hate him.

People don't hate Tex, Burnett, or CC in baseball because they joined the Yankees to chase a ring.

He isn't liked because of his attitude and cockiness.

Teaming up made sense for him to do, it's silly for someone to not like him because of that.

Jeffy25
06-09-2014, 08:02 PM
For the record, anyone who has a problem with the decision should do a little research. I have no problem with this:

The announcement, which was not made until nearly 30 minutes into the program, was part of a conversation between James and Gray.[7] Broadcast from the Boys and Girls Club of Greenwich, Connecticut, the show raised $2.5 million for the charity.[8] The show raised an additional $3.5 million from advertisement revenue which was donated to other various charities.[8]

I think everyone was aware that he did that, it's just the air of doing that is annoying.

Chronz
06-09-2014, 08:03 PM
I'm not sure what you mean by that. Wilt was traded to LA and he was 32. West and Baylor were both drafted by the Lakers and spent their entire careers there. You could maybe argue their production was similar but not in the context of how they came together.
Why not. When Bron joined, Bosh and Wade were on the team. Not sure what you're trying to get at by saying Wilt was traded there, he was still the one forcing his way out of Philly. Only difference is Bron left a **** situation in free agency and Wilt left a better team out of bitterness.

KnicksorBust
06-09-2014, 08:04 PM
I think everyone was aware that he did that, it's just the air of doing that is annoying.

#1.) Everyone is definitely NOT aware of it. I had a conversation today with two people that did not know he raised money for charity.

#2.) If $6 million dollars raised for children is not a good enough reason for him to announce it publicly on television, then I think people need to re-evaluate what is really important.

beasted86
06-09-2014, 08:05 PM
I think there are a bunch of factors. If Jordan was in his prime right now I think he would get close to the same amount of hate Lebron gets. With the way the internet is now, there are tons of people trying to get attention and the easiest way to do that is to say something negative. So haters in general are in full force and now have an easy way to get the attention they crave.

Truth.

Negativity, controversy, and gossip rule the media nowadays.

Jeffy25
06-09-2014, 08:07 PM
I still don't understand why people say LeBron is not a humble person? He clearly always gives credit to his teammates ...



Well, stuff like this happens too

http://romancingthejock.com/2013/07/theres-no-i-in-team-of-course-theres-no-we-either/

This is from last year.

Jeffy25
06-09-2014, 08:08 PM
#1.) Everyone is definitely NOT aware of it. I had a conversation today with two people that did not know he raised money for charity.
Oh, that kind of surprises me.

All good :)

KnicksorBust
06-09-2014, 08:14 PM
Oh, that kind of surprises me.

All good :)

Who did you "like" more as a player? LeBron or Jordan? For me, I probably like LeBron more. In the 90s I couldn't stand Jordan.

Jeffy25
06-09-2014, 08:15 PM
Who did you "like" more as a player? LeBron or Jordan? For me, I probably like LeBron more. In the 90s I couldn't stand Jordan.

I didn't like Jordan as a kid, but I tried to emulate him.

But I also had more rose collared glasses on back then (I was born in 83).

I liked Jordan more. But I also remember him irritating him at times (I was a bit of a Bird fan).


But I am also rooting for Lebron to be an all time great. I didn't watch enough of Jordan's early years, and with Lebron, I have been watching since day 1.

Chronz
06-09-2014, 08:28 PM
#1.) Everyone is definitely NOT aware of it. I had a conversation today with two people that did not know he raised money for charity.

#2.) If $6 million dollars raised for children is not a good enough reason for him to announce it publicly on television, then I think people need to re-evaluate what is really important.

AMEN

Think of the children people

Bruno
06-09-2014, 08:34 PM
I wish Bosh/Wade/Bron signing with Miami wasn't truly unprecedented.

Could've been T-Mac/Hill/Duncan first!! :sigh:

that would have been pretty amazing, I was just reading about the Duncan/McGrady thing recently.

i'm being hard on LBJ because I still have an inner homer. there would be no way to prove collusion.

beasted86
06-09-2014, 08:34 PM
Well, stuff like this happens too

http://romancingthejock.com/2013/07/theres-no-i-in-team-of-course-theres-no-we-either/

This is from last year.

Did you watch the press conference? How about watch it and don't take anyone's word for it. This is top secret info, so I might have hit men at my door in the next 5 minutes for letting this out, but "not everything on the internet is true"


Of course he says "we". Matter of fact, literally the very first thing that comes out of his mouth from the first question asked is "This team is amazing"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxqSSyod-iQ

Jeffy25
06-09-2014, 08:42 PM
Did you watch the press conference? How about watch it and don't take anyone's word for it. This is top secret info, so I might have hit men at my door in the next 5 minutes for letting this out, but "not everything on the internet is true"


Of course he says "we". Matter of fact, literally the very first thing that comes out of his mouth from the first question asked is "This team is amazing"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxqSSyod-iQ

Oh, so he said 'we' twice, and said 'I' way more than that guy thought.

Did say 'our' a lot though.

Bruno
06-09-2014, 08:43 PM
Its not really that unprecedented, Wilt-West-Baylor all posted the same statistical marks the year before joining, not too dissimilar

its not a perfect comparison because Wilt and Baylor had been together for years, where as this time around bosh and james joined at the same time, but thats fair (I'd criticize Bosh here too if he wasn't the one who committed first, but that might be irrelevant if Bosh already knew LBJ was coming). I always harp on them saying "three of the top five players in PER from the previous year all joined together at the same time and that never happened" but (because of your post) TIL that Wilt, West and Baylor were top five in 1968 as well, the year before Wilt joined the Lakers (how they hell did they lose?)

you gotta go back 40 years to find another example thats close. i imagine Wilt didn't get as much flack because he had just recently won in '67. Had LBJ been fortunate enough to win in Cleveland at least half of the criticism couldn't be applied.

beasted86
06-09-2014, 08:47 PM
Oh, so he said 'we' once, and said 'I' way more than that guy thought.

Really? :facepalm:

Jeffy25
06-09-2014, 08:48 PM
Really? :facepalm:

Said our quite a bit.

But he mainly talked about elevating his own game.

koreancabbage
06-09-2014, 08:49 PM
meh, I love both.... and Kobe. :shrug::shrug:

Jeffy25
06-09-2014, 08:49 PM
Btw, here is toews.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UV5jagzn1-4

Does say 'I'

As in 'I'm blessed to play with these guys' lol

Bruno
06-09-2014, 08:52 PM
meh, I love both.... and Kobe. :shrug::shrug:
honestly, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHHKU4znvo8

not saying thats a smug opinion, only that its awesome to be able to do that. I've been trying, I do an okay job.

shauneazy
06-09-2014, 08:59 PM
Honestly, I can't stand Lebron because I'm so annoyed the way ESPN and the NBA throw him down our throats. I don't care what "The King" does. Like, we get it he's good but everything seems to always go down in his favor and it just seems as if he gets every call and then the league was transitioning out of the Kobe Bryant era, so they needed a new face of the league. I feel like the league catered to him his entire career and it's annoying to have to listen to ESPN and NBA praise this guy every five seconds. I do, however, believe he's the best in the world right now, but it's so annoying and played out. Plus, him going to Miami (though smart) was what set me over to refuse to enjoy him.

ewing
06-09-2014, 09:31 PM
LeBron's contrived media personality is more douchy then Micheal's was.

Chronz
06-09-2014, 09:36 PM
its not a perfect comparison because Wilt and Baylor had been together for years, where as this time around bosh and james joined at the same time, but thats fair (I'd criticize Bosh here too if he wasn't the one who committed first, but that might be irrelevant if Bosh already knew LBJ was coming). I always harp on them saying "three of the top five players in PER from the previous year all joined together at the same time and that never happened" but (because of your post) TIL that Wilt, West and Baylor were top five in 1968 as well, the year before Wilt joined the Lakers (how they hell did they lose?)

you gotta go back 40 years to find another example thats close. i imagine Wilt didn't get as much flack because he had just recently won in '67. Had LBJ been fortunate enough to win in Cleveland at least half of the criticism couldn't be applied.

I wouldnt know what to tell you about the social zeitgeist of the time, I have snippets of information but nothing comes to mind with regards to that specific date, all I can tell you is that Wilt basically had his Bron moment (the so called hot potato/passive play) in the series before the trade. The Sixers were defending champs, up 3-1, then collapsed. Wilt got alot of blame for his performance that series, but with the Sixers losing their frontcourt depth, Wilt was pretty much all they had. Russell famously took himself off of Wilt that series, so he could completely neutralize either Greer or Walker, I forget who.
In the deciding Game 7, it was noted that Wilt typically got around 30-40 touches a half and got less than 10 in the entire 2nd half (using rough estimates, if you want actual figures they gave, Ill have to get back to you). It was the most puzzling thing, people didn't know what to make of it. Was Wilt not being assertive enough, were his remaining teammates just not capable of finding him, was Boston that great defensively, some even blamed the imbalanced play on the Martin Luther King assassination. His owner/friend had died during one of the games. Wilt left a great team so he could join 2 superstars. It wasn't seen as anything other than LA trying to match up with Boston IMO.

They lost that following year because of massive decline, insanely idiotic coaching and bad chemistry between Wilt+Elgin. That and Boston was every bit as talented.

Captain Moroni
06-09-2014, 09:38 PM
Jordan was hated in his time. he is loved more now.
Lebron would be liked more if he won in Cleveland.
Jordan would be hated more if he joined an all star cast and left the Bulls

koreancabbage
06-09-2014, 09:39 PM
honestly, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHHKU4znvo8

not saying thats a smug opinion, only that its awesome to be able to do that. I've been trying, I do an okay job.

LOL it is hard sometimes, at the end of the day, people need to get lives if they are focused on spending time hating someone that shouldn't really be affecting their life (not you, people in general)

It's much easier to hate a player (or anyone for that matter)

i'myourdaddy
06-09-2014, 09:41 PM
Jordan was hated in his time. he is loved more now.
Lebron would be liked more if he won in Cleveland.
Jordan would be hated more if he joined an all star cast and left the Bulls

Why would Jordan left when he played with an all star casts already, while Lebron played with D-League Scrub? Stop being a hater.

ewing
06-09-2014, 09:43 PM
Why would Jordan left when he played with an all star casts already, while Lebron played with D-League Scrub? Stop being a hater.


Jordan paid his dues

nastynice
06-09-2014, 09:46 PM
I kinda hate on lebron just cuz he took such an easy route out. I wouldn't mind if he left cleveland and just signed with another team, but for three superstars to take paycuts to play with each other, its just wack. No way in hell jordan's legacy would be ANYWHERE close to what it is had he had to team up with ewing and miller. There's just no way. And so, neither will lebron's for as long as he and wade and bosh are taking paycuts to play together. And its so sad, cuz he's just so freaking talented, just a phenomenal player. So it sucks that he's taken himself out of the running to be mentioned in the same breath as players like jordan, kareem, magic, bird, shaq, hakeem etc. He'll just never reach that level, unless the big 3 breaks up and he still keeps winning. Then maybe he can attain that type of status.

Altho, it doesn't really make me hate him, it just makes me not want to see him (or wade, or bosh) succeed, just because its like ok, you guys teamed up, no **** you guys are supposed to win it all every year. There's nothing special about them winning championships, its just what you expect, three top tier guys taking pay cuts. There's nothing special or gratifying about watching them win.

i'myourdaddy
06-09-2014, 09:47 PM
Jordan paid his dues

So you expect Lebron to stay in Cleveland hell forever? That organization is terrible, look at what they did after Lebron left? I remember during Lebron's Cleveland year, people were calling him LeChoke, can't bring a title to Cleveland blah blah. In some games, his second best player were Boogie freaking Gibson.

ewing
06-09-2014, 09:47 PM
I wouldnt know what to tell you about the social zeitgeist of the time, I have snippets of information but nothing comes to mind with regards to that specific date, all I can tell you is that Wilt basically had his Bron moment (the so called hot potato/passive play) in the series before the trade. The Sixers were defending champs, up 3-1, then collapsed. Wilt got alot of blame for his performance that series, but with the Sixers losing their frontcourt depth, Wilt was pretty much all they had. Russell famously took himself off of Wilt that series, so he could completely neutralize either Greer or Walker, I forget who.
In the deciding Game 7, it was noted that Wilt typically got around 30-40 touches a half and got less than 10 in the entire 2nd half (using rough estimates, if you want actual figures they gave, Ill have to get back to you). It was the most puzzling thing, people didn't know what to make of it. Was Wilt not being assertive enough, were his remaining teammates just not capable of finding him, was Boston that great defensively, some even blamed the imbalanced play on the Martin Luther King assassination. His owner/friend had died during one of the games. Wilt left a great team so he could join 2 superstars. It wasn't seen as anything other than LA trying to match up with Boston IMO.

They lost that following year because of massive decline, insanely idiotic coaching and bad chemistry between Wilt+Elgin. That and Boston was every bit as talented.


Great story. where you around then Chronz or are you an historian? (im honestly interested, either way)

i'myourdaddy
06-09-2014, 09:48 PM
I kinda hate on lebron just cuz he took such an easy route out. I wouldn't mind if he left cleveland and just signed with another team, but for three superstars to take paycuts to play with each other, its just wack. No way in hell jordan's legacy would be ANYWHERE close to what it is had he had to team up with ewing and miller. There's just no way. And so, neither will lebron's for as long as he and wade and bosh are taking paycuts to play together. And its so sad, cuz he's just so freaking talented, just a phenomenal player. So it sucks that he's taken himself out of the running to be mentioned in the same breath as players like jordan, kareem, magic, bird, shaq, etc.

Altho, it doesn't really make me hate him, it just makes me not want to see him succeed, just because its like ok, you guys teamed up, no **** you guys are supposed to win it all every year. There's nothing special about them winning championships, its just what you expect, three top tier guys taking pay cuts. There's nothing special or gratifying about watching them win.

So you think Jordan, Miller & Ewing is better than Jordan, Pippen & Rodman?

ewing
06-09-2014, 09:50 PM
So you expect Lebron to stay in Cleveland hell forever? That organization is terrible, look at what they did after Lebron left? I remember during Lebron's Cleveland year, people were calling him LeChoke, can't bring a title to Cleveland blah blah. In some games, his second best player were Boogie freaking Gibson.


you said Jordan had an all star caste. His caste for many years was pretty ****ing ******.

nastynice
06-09-2014, 09:50 PM
So you think Jordan, Miller & Ewing is better than Jordan, Pippen & Rodman?

yea, obviously, what in the hell kinda question is that?

ewing
06-09-2014, 09:51 PM
So you think Jordan, Miller & Ewing is better than Jordan, Pippen & Rodman?

yes

Jeffy25
06-09-2014, 09:55 PM
I kinda hate on lebron just cuz he took such an easy route out. I wouldn't mind if he left cleveland and just signed with another team, but for three superstars to take paycuts to play with each other, its just wack. No way in hell jordan's legacy would be ANYWHERE close to what it is had he had to team up with ewing and miller. There's just no way. And so, neither will lebron's for as long as he and wade and bosh are taking paycuts to play together. And its so sad, cuz he's just so freaking talented, just a phenomenal player. So it sucks that he's taken himself out of the running to be mentioned in the same breath as players like jordan, kareem, magic, bird, shaq, hakeem etc. He'll just never reach that level, unless the big 3 breaks up and he still keeps winning. Then maybe he can attain that type of status.

Altho, it doesn't really make me hate him, it just makes me not want to see him (or wade, or bosh) succeed, just because its like ok, you guys teamed up, no **** you guys are supposed to win it all every year. There's nothing special about them winning championships, its just what you expect, three top tier guys taking pay cuts. There's nothing special or gratifying about watching them win.

He's out of the running to be mentioned with bird, magic, etc because he was drafted by a horrible team and left for better?

Cleveland was never going to give him the talent he needed to win.

That's not his fault.

And as big of a bird fan as I am, he's better all time than bird already.


Those other guys had hall of famers brought to them or already where they were drafted.

Lebron didn't get that privilege.



Btw, in two years, Lebron will already be an all time top 10 scorer (assuming normal Lebron play).

Verbal Christ
06-09-2014, 09:59 PM
Why would Jordan left when he played with an all star casts already, while Lebron played with D-League Scrub? Stop being a hater.


Michael Jordan turned his teammates into stars and won championships. Lebron had to join other stars to win championships. Stark differences. What did Pippen do afterwards? Grant? Kukoc? c'mon man this topic has been wrapped up along time ago. Lebron sealed his fate when he hightailed it out of CLE and broadcast his stupid decision on TV.

One of the greatest of all time? No doubt. Better than Michael? LOL

ATX
06-09-2014, 10:00 PM
I kinda hate on lebron just cuz he took such an easy route out. I wouldn't mind if he left cleveland and just signed with another team, but for three superstars to take paycuts to play with each other, its just wack. No way in hell jordan's legacy would be ANYWHERE close to what it is had he had to team up with ewing and miller. There's just no way. And so, neither will lebron's for as long as he and wade and bosh are taking paycuts to play together. And its so sad, cuz he's just so freaking talented, just a phenomenal player. So it sucks that he's taken himself out of the running to be mentioned in the same breath as players like jordan, kareem, magic, bird, shaq, etc.

Altho, it doesn't really make me hate him, it just makes me not want to see him (or wade, or bosh) succeed, just because its like ok, you guys teamed up, no **** you guys are supposed to win it all every year. There's nothing special about them winning championships, its just what you expect, three top tier guys taking pay cuts. There's nothing special or gratifying about watching them win.

Says who? You and you're hater compadres will never give him his due I get that, trust me I do, but you're in a minority that is shrinking with every W. He has not taken himself out of that breath, because all of those players also played on the most stacked teams in history. Those players also played in the LA, CHI, and BOS markets...And then there's CLV...Anyways, the argument is solid that James made the smart decision to leave Cleveland behind, and now is much more likely to be mentioned in that breath...And well, is. He'll get his due, and already is.

nysportsfan23
06-09-2014, 10:01 PM
Witness/not 1 not 2/Future Billionaire proclamation/ESPN NBA constant nonsense about his every move. Decision nonsense along with crapping on every other major market. I don't blame him for leaving Cleveland, they weren't going anywhere and south beach is amazing. He has all time great stats already, for conversation he needs five titles, six for a strong case, seven for goat title. That's how it goes at the top, stop whining.

JDMVP
06-09-2014, 10:01 PM
I think the main reason why everyone hates him is the fact how he left Cleveland and joined two other stars. People will never admit the fact how the competition was a lot tougher in the early 2000s, 90s and 80s. Sure great teams were stacked but those players were brought together by the organization not by themselves.
Another thing is the media, when Miami wins its never about the team, its about LeBron. LeBron is the Main reason why they win but people act like its LeBron vs the spurs

Kevj77
06-09-2014, 10:02 PM
I actually used to really like Lebron, I scalped a ticket in Oakland to see him play once and was happy I did. The decision was lame, but it didn't upset me that he changed teams or lessen my respect for him the way he went about it did somewhat, but I over that. The number one reason I came to dislike Lebron is his groupies on places like PSD. Once I stopped reading these forums as much I started to like him more again.

So I'd say the main reason he is hated on is social media and his fans (groupies).

nysportsfan23
06-09-2014, 10:02 PM
Until he wins at least five Jordan talk is comical

nastynice
06-09-2014, 10:04 PM
He's out of the running to be mentioned with bird, magic, etc because he was drafted by a horrible team and left for better?

Cleveland was never going to give him the talent he needed to win.

That's not his fault.

And as big of a bird fan as I am, he's better all time than bird already.


Those other guys had hall of famers brought to them or already where they were drafted.

Lebron didn't get that privilege.



Btw, in two years, Lebron will already be an all time top 10 scorer (assuming normal Lebron play).

Oh yea, I don't blame him for leaving cleveland. I feel bad for that city, but geez man, that FO is just the worst. In all honesty, I kinda wanted to see him leave cleveland that summer, I thought it would be really good for him and he could really creating a true legacy for himself.

But taking paycuts with another top 3 and top 10 player, c'mon, there's just nothing special about that. Most other threepeats we see, I mean we are at least privelaged to be watching greatness in the making, but this heat team, there's just nothing great about it, there's nothing amazing about it. Its like watching team usa win the gold, like, yea its good and all, but what's special about it? What's legendary about it? There's just nothing to it. We're going to have this handful of years of dominant Miami Heat in the history books, and nobody's going to see that as anything great? Its just what you figured would happen when they all took paycuts to play together, anything less would be absolute failure.

And I get that there are lots of teams that are built as a championship or bust team, like the patriots in football, but even though they don't win every year, and haven't for about 6 years, we will always look back at them and remember them as a dynasty, a great team, a privelage for us to have been able to watch them. Same with this spurs team. But there's just nothing like that about this heat team. Its just an extreme amount of talent being taped together to try and just make it happen. There is nothing great about that. This is not a legacy in the making.

ewing
06-09-2014, 10:04 PM
He's out of the running to be mentioned with bird, magic, etc because he was drafted by a horrible team and left for better?

Cleveland was never going to give him the talent he needed to win.

That's not his fault.

And as big of a bird fan as I am, he's better all time than bird already.


Those other guys had hall of famers brought to them or already where they were drafted.

Lebron didn't get that privilege.



Btw, in two years, Lebron will already be an all time top 10 scorer (assuming normal Lebron play).


i remember them winning 60 plus games. I remember they took the celtics 7 the year they won. The cavs were never going to win? Really? I'm not saying he shouldn't be allowed to leave but i think you are creating a narrative

Jeffy25
06-09-2014, 10:06 PM
i remember them winning 60 plus games. I remember they took the celtics 7 the year they won. The cavs were never going to win? Really? I'm not saying he shouldn't be allowed to leave but i think you are creating a narrative

He maybe could have won a chip or two there. But that was a horrible term before he got there, and they were horrible the moment he left.

ewing
06-09-2014, 10:12 PM
Michael Jordan turned his teammates into stars and won championships. Lebron had to join other stars to win championships. Stark differences. What did Pippen do afterwards? Grant? Kukoc? c'mon man this topic has been wrapped up along time ago. Lebron sealed his fate when he hightailed it out of CLE and broadcast his stupid decision on TV.

One of the greatest of all time? No doubt. Better than Michael? LOL


Pippen was always pretty awesome. Micheal didn't invent that guy

ewing
06-09-2014, 10:22 PM
He maybe could have won a chip or two there. But that was a horrible term before he got there, and they were horrible the moment he left.


Losing Bron is a big deal. They lost him, Shaq, Delonte, Big Z. Its impressive what he did with the talent he had in cleveland but the team broke up. the team he left wouldn't have been very good without him but the team they floored the next year was terrible. they lost Bron and more and they replaced with nothing

koreancabbage
06-09-2014, 10:31 PM
Michael Jordan turned his teammates into stars and won championships. Lebron had to join other stars to win championships. Stark differences. What did Pippen do afterwards? Grant? Kukoc? c'mon man this topic has been wrapped up along time ago. Lebron sealed his fate when he hightailed it out of CLE and broadcast his stupid decision on TV.

One of the greatest of all time? No doubt. Better than Michael? LOL

Rodman, Pippen, Grant. Jordan had great talent around all the time. and a great coach.

Greg is working his magic now in the playoffs even with playoffs in their twilights. Imagine Greg Popovich with players in their prime.

Nothing to take away from Jordan but he was an amazing player in an amazing situation.

Bring The Heat
06-09-2014, 10:47 PM
Oh yea, I don't blame him for leaving cleveland. I feel bad for that city, but geez man, that FO is just the worst. In all honesty, I kinda wanted to see him leave cleveland that summer, I thought it would be really good for him and he could really creating a true legacy for himself.

But taking paycuts with another top 3 and top 10 player, c'mon, there's just nothing special about that. Most other threepeats we see, I mean we are at least privelaged to be watching greatness in the making, but this heat team, there's just nothing great about it, there's nothing amazing about it. Its like watching team usa win the gold, like, yea its good and all, but what's special about it? What's legendary about it? There's just nothing to it. We're going to have this handful of years of dominant Miami Heat in the history books, and nobody's going to see that as anything great? Its just what you figured would happen when they all took paycuts to play together, anything less would be absolute failure.

And I get that there are lots of teams that are built as a championship or bust team, like the patriots in football, but even though they don't win every year, and haven't for about 6 years, we will always look back at them and remember them as a dynasty, a great team, a privelage for us to have been able to watch them. Same with this spurs team. But there's just nothing like that about this heat team. Its just an extreme amount of talent being taped together to try and just make it happen. There is nothing great about that. This is not a legacy in the making.


Team USA? you seriously lost credibility after that statement... People acting like The Heat just been steamrolling through the competition. 2 years we gone to the finals we hadn't even had the #1 seed.. **** I remember people even this year people saying this is the year The Heat aren't coming out of the East they aren't as good anymore. I remember the Chicago bulls went 72-10 and till this day have that record and it hasn't been broken. They dominated every single opponent literally and nobody EVER stood a chance. The Heat have come close to elimination at times in the playoffs like for example being down 3-2 to Boston. LeBron James literally won that game himself if you watched it and willed his team to victory, he showed his greatness. There have been times they have faced adversity and overcame it. Nothing has come easy to this team.. They all play together and love the game of basketball and the only thing important to them is winning, that to me is special. Magic had Kareem and Worthy, Bird had Mchale and Parish... Jordan had Pippen and Rodman.... Lol What is the difference? Just because it was through free agency? Those teams were stacked as well.

Bring The Heat
06-09-2014, 10:51 PM
People talk all this crap because it didn't happen with their team. You all know for a FACT that if LeBron joined your team when he was a free agent you wouldn't be talking this much garbage.

nastynice
06-09-2014, 11:32 PM
Says who? You and you're hater compadres will never give him his due I get that, trust me I do, but you're in a minority that is shrinking with every W. He has not taken himself out of that breath, because all of those players also played on the most stacked teams in history. Those players also played in the LA, CHI, and BOS markets...And then there's CLV...Anyways, the argument is solid that James made the smart decision to leave Cleveland behind, and now is much more likely to be mentioned in that breath...And well, is. He'll get his due, and already is.

na, I already said I will give him that if he legitimately can win without having to take a paycut with a couple other people. I mean, anyone can do that, there's just nothing special about it. Dwight howard, kevin durant, kevin love, chris paul, and james harden can all take paycuts and play together, but let's be real, if they won 5 in a row, it would just be like, ok, whatever. What else you expect? There wouldn't be anything legendary about that, no one would be telling their kids ohhh, I got to witness that live. It would just be like, meh, what else you expect?

The big 3 doesn't have to stay together forever, and if James can win without being in a situation where he needs superstars to take paycuts along with him, then he can definitely join that elite group. There's no doubt he has the talent to do so. But becoming an nba legend is about more than just talent.

nastynice
06-09-2014, 11:37 PM
People talk all this crap because it didn't happen with their team. You all know for a FACT that if LeBron joined your team when he was a free agent you wouldn't be talking this much garbage.

HELLLLL YEA I'd love for the big three to all play for my team!!! Nowhere in hell did I say that wouldn't be the case. But I definitely wouldn't compare them to the nba legends of the past. For the same reasons I already brought up. Its not like them wearing a different color uniform somehow changes all what I said. But I wouldn't give a damn. They'd just be bringing trophies to my team, and I'd be 100% content with that.

Quinnsanity
06-09-2014, 11:50 PM
The thing about LeBron is that he has very little self awareness. He just sort of does things without considering the consequences, so you end up with things like The Decision. On the other hand, Jordan was probably the most self conscious athlete of all time. He managed the media in such ways that most of the bad stories about him didn't come out until much later than they actually happened. I think that's the key difference. Jordan was far more of an ******* than LeBron, but he's far better at handling the media. I don't think he'd be able to pull that off as well nowadays, but on the other hand he never would've made The Decision either.

Captain Moroni
06-10-2014, 12:37 AM
People talk all this crap because it didn't happen with their team. You all know for a FACT that if LeBron joined your team when he was a free agent you wouldn't be talking this much garbage.

Garbage? the truth is the truth. He left a team he couldnt make good enough to win the whole thing to form the justice league in Miami.
doesnt make him any less of a talent, we all just hate the guy.

Jordan on the other hand was hated for beating our teams, but we respected Jordan. No respect for the big 3.

Yanks All Day
06-10-2014, 08:37 AM
The answer is nostalgia. Jordan is on a pedestal that LeBron is trying to reach. But the public love affair will never allow it, resulting in extremely unnecessary hatred for LeBron James.

People love to create this narrative about Jordan that "He made everyone who they were. He helped them get rings. He closed out all championship games for them. He was the only reason that the Bulls were what they were." The fact of the matter is: Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player of all time, but let's not pretend like Jordan's Bulls weren't filled with great talents.

First and foremost, Phil Jackson was the coach. PSD can't be a forever-Phil slurpfest for the guy and then disregard what he brings to the table when it comes to talking Jordan. He had a lot to do with the Bulls' success.

Scottie Pippen is one of the 50 best players of all time. He was the best defender on the Bulls, and more often than not, took the other team's best player defensively. Not Jordan. He was averaging 20/8/5 in the Bulls' best years.

Dennis Rodman was the rebounding monster of the Chicago Bulls. Same goes for Horace Grant. People seem to forget that the Bulls didn't immediately win another title the year MJ came back. They lost to Grant's Orlando Magic in the ECF. Even the great Michael Jordan couldn't win without a legitimate inside presence.

Paxson, Armstrong, Kukoc, and Kerr were all elite shooters. You think Jordan just gets to the lane at will because he's Michael Jordan? No. He was surrounded by talented shooters who hit a lot of big time shots to win big games.


The narrative of Michael Jordan the basketball player is that from the very beginning, he was the greatest player ever. He'd defend the other team's best player, hit every big shot, and score every point. He was the sole reason that the Bulls won 6 titles. In reality, that couldn't be further from the truth. He is, in fact, the best player of all time. He stepped up when needed the most, and has 6 rings and 6 FMVPs to prove it. But in reality, he was blessed with the greatest coach ever and elite talent on his team for most of his career. It took him years to beat the Pistons. He was the original "ball hog chucker who was all about stats." But winning cures all and wipes memories clean. People say "LeBron left when Jordan stuck it out" like Jordan was working with LeBron's Cavs. Jordan had no reason to leave. He was already on that generation's dream team.

Off the court, it isn't even close. Michael Jordan was(is) a gambling addict, and by all accounts a pompous jerk. Literally, the biggest scandal of LeBron's career was that he left his old team in free agency to sign with a new one on national tv while giving millions of dollars to the Boys and Girls Club. LeBron seems like a genuinely likable guy who teammates love playing with. He's the best player in the world who will gladly pass to his teammates (even when he's on fire), and then joke with them after the game. People will never realize that, though, because any kind of positive comparisons to Jordan are borderline sacrilegious. He's the best player ever, but he's not untouchable... on or off the court.

ATX
06-10-2014, 09:50 AM
The thing about LeBron is that he has very little self awareness. He just sort of does things without considering the consequences, so you end up with things like The Decision. On the other hand, Jordan was probably the most self conscious athlete of all time. He managed the media in such ways that most of the bad stories about him didn't come out until much later than they actually happened. I think that's the key difference. Jordan was far more of an ******* than LeBron, but he's far better at handling the media. I don't think he'd be able to pull that off as well nowadays, but on the other hand he never would've made The Decision either.

For as much pressure and media scrutiny James must endure, I think he is extremely professional and "Self aware". Has he made some youthful, naive mistakes in the media, yes. Has he learned from those mistakes and become a better ambassador, yes, without question. He openly admitted that the "Decision" was a PR mistake, and if he had it to all over again he would have done it differently. He was giving the media what they wanted and was naive to think it wouldn't rub people to wrong way. It's been 4 years since the "Mistake", but do we really need to rehash and continue to persecute him for that mistake...I think he's done just fine by his teammates, the NBA, the community and the media since. He's not a bad guy, just made a bad PR mistake.

JWO35
06-10-2014, 10:02 AM
Two Words...."The Decision"

LeBron was well liked prior to that

xnick5757
06-10-2014, 10:28 AM
The thing about LeBron is that he has very little self awareness. He just sort of does things without considering the consequences, so you end up with things like The Decision. On the other hand, Jordan was probably the most self conscious athlete of all time. He managed the media in such ways that most of the bad stories about him didn't come out until much later than they actually happened. I think that's the key difference. Jordan was far more of an ******* than LeBron, but he's far better at handling the media. I don't think he'd be able to pull that off as well nowadays, but on the other hand he never would've made The Decision either.

Pretty much this. Jordan was/is a brand. He never really did anything to "rock the boat", so to speak. Not (publicly) political; never attempted to use his position to advance African-American cause/equality (not that I'm saying he should have, it was his decision, but if he had wanted to he could have unquestionable done something given his stature).

Jordan was bland; entirely focused on not only winning on the court, but growing his brand and marketing everywhere.

ink
06-10-2014, 10:36 AM
The thing about LeBron is that he has very little self awareness. He just sort of does things without considering the consequences, so you end up with things like The Decision. On the other hand, Jordan was probably the most self conscious athlete of all time. He managed the media in such ways that most of the bad stories about him didn't come out until much later than they actually happened. I think that's the key difference. Jordan was far more of an ******* than LeBron, but he's far better at handling the media. I don't think he'd be able to pull that off as well nowadays, but on the other hand he never would've made The Decision either.

Pretty much this. Jordan was/is a brand. He never really did anything to "rock the boat", so to speak. Not (publicly) political; never attempted to use his position to advance African-American cause/equality (not that I'm saying he should have, it was his decision, but if he had wanted to he could have unquestionable done something given his stature).

Jordan was bland; entirely focused on not only winning on the court, but growing his brand and marketing everywhere.

Did you actually watch him play? Imperfect person, sure, but anything but bland. IMO you have it backwards. Post MJ has been the most commercialized and bland era of the league. Lebron's obviously legit as a player but as a personality he hasn't got much. That's really the difference.

KnicksorBust
06-10-2014, 10:56 AM
He's out of the running to be mentioned with bird, magic, etc because he was drafted by a horrible team and left for better?

Cleveland was never going to give him the talent he needed to win.

That's not his fault.

And as big of a bird fan as I am, he's better all time than bird already.


Those other guys had hall of famers brought to them or already where they were drafted.

Lebron didn't get that privilege.



Btw, in two years, Lebron will already be an all time top 10 scorer (assuming normal Lebron play).

I agree with this. I actually have no qualms with LeBron about The Decision. He raised $6 million for charity and left a franchise that had failed repeatedly to surround him with enough talent to win a title. He gave Cleveland 7 years. There are at minimum 5 mistakes that the Cavs made:

#1.) Blowing the Carlos Boozer Situation
#2.) Thinking Larry Hughes would be LeBron's version of Scottie Pippen
#3.) Not pulling the trigger on Amar'e Stoudemire (good thing you held on to JJ Hickson!!)
#4.) Bringing in Jamison too late
#5.) Bringing in Shaq too late

0-5 on all their big moves = LeBron should do what is best for him... and he did!

ink
06-10-2014, 11:13 AM
I agree with this. I actually have no qualms with LeBron about The Decision. He raised $6 million for charity and left a franchise that had failed repeatedly to surround him with enough talent to win a title. He gave Cleveland 7 years. There are at minimum 5 mistakes that the Cavs made:

#1.) Blowing the Carlos Boozer Situation
#2.) Thinking Larry Hughes would be LeBron's version of Scottie Pippen
#3.) Not pulling the trigger on Amar'e Stoudemire (good thing you held on to JJ Hickson!!)
#4.) Bringing in Jamison too late
#5.) Bringing in Shaq too late

0-5 on all their big moves = LeBron should do what is best for him... and he did!

I have no problems with major charity events either but that wasn't really what it turned into. I can hardly think of any other PR attempt that went so wrong. It was an unmitigated disaster. The Decision and several of Lebron's scripted lines became the butt of so many jokes and so many grievances. The opposite of what any PR person would want.

btw I agree about the Cavs' incompetence. That's undeniable.

A complete mess. The interesting thing is that even when he left the Cavs, Lebron kept putting his foot in his mouth with his "not 1, not 2" comment so it's clear that he's responsible for his own issues.

Does it matter?

Not really. But the thread question is why is Lebron "hated" and MJ "loved". A lot of it has to do with the fact that Lebron isn't a compelling character. So much of what he does backfires, regardless of the undeniable fact that he's the best player since MJ.

A lot of his stuff is self-inflicted.

Jeffy25
06-10-2014, 11:24 AM
The answer is nostalgia. Jordan is on a pedestal that LeBron is trying to reach. But the public love affair will never allow it, resulting in extremely unnecessary hatred for LeBron James.

People love to create this narrative about Jordan that "He made everyone who they were. He helped them get rings. He closed out all championship games for them. He was the only reason that the Bulls were what they were." The fact of the matter is: Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player of all time, but let's not pretend like Jordan's Bulls weren't filled with great talents.

First and foremost, Phil Jackson was the coach. PSD can't be a forever-Phil slurpfest for the guy and then disregard what he brings to the table when it comes to talking Jordan. He had a lot to do with the Bulls' success.

Scottie Pippen is one of the 50 best players of all time. He was the best defender on the Bulls, and more often than not, took the other team's best player defensively. Not Jordan. He was averaging 20/8/5 in the Bulls' best years.

Dennis Rodman was the rebounding monster of the Chicago Bulls. Same goes for Horace Grant. People seem to forget that the Bulls didn't immediately win another title the year MJ came back. They lost to Grant's Orlando Magic in the ECF. Even the great Michael Jordan couldn't win without a legitimate inside presence.

Paxson, Armstrong, Kukoc, and Kerr were all elite shooters. You think Jordan just gets to the lane at will because he's Michael Jordan? No. He was surrounded by talented shooters who hit a lot of big time shots to win big games.


The narrative of Michael Jordan the basketball player is that from the very beginning, he was the greatest player ever. He'd defend the other team's best player, hit every big shot, and score every point. He was the sole reason that the Bulls won 6 titles. In reality, that couldn't be further from the truth. He is, in fact, the best player of all time. He stepped up when needed the most, and has 6 rings and 6 FMVPs to prove it. But in reality, he was blessed with the greatest coach ever and elite talent on his team for most of his career. It took him years to beat the Pistons. He was the original "ball hog chucker who was all about stats." But winning cures all and wipes memories clean. People say "LeBron left when Jordan stuck it out" like Jordan was working with LeBron's Cavs. Jordan had no reason to leave. He was already on that generation's dream team.

Off the court, it isn't even close. Michael Jordan was(is) a gambling addict, and by all accounts a pompous jerk. Literally, the biggest scandal of LeBron's career was that he left his old team in free agency to sign with a new one on national tv while giving millions of dollars to the Boys and Girls Club. LeBron seems like a genuinely likable guy who teammates love playing with. He's the best player in the world who will gladly pass to his teammates (even when he's on fire), and then joke with them after the game. People will never realize that, though, because any kind of positive comparisons to Jordan are borderline sacrilegious. He's the best player ever, but he's not untouchable... on or off the court.

:clap:

pujolsdabomb5
06-10-2014, 11:37 AM
Everyone respected him in Cleveland. then when he did the big media whore event to stick the knife in Clevelands back to go to south beach, everyone outside of Miami thought he was a dick

oh, and the fact he colluded with bosh and wade to win easy rings didnt help either

....easy titles? c'mon man, which one of the Heat's last two championships have been easy?

ink
06-10-2014, 11:40 AM
The answer is nostalgia. Jordan is on a pedestal that LeBron is trying to reach. But the public love affair will never allow it, resulting in extremely unnecessary hatred for LeBron James.

People love to create this narrative about Jordan that "He made everyone who they were. He helped them get rings. He closed out all championship games for them. He was the only reason that the Bulls were what they were." The fact of the matter is: Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player of all time, but let's not pretend like Jordan's Bulls weren't filled with great talents.

First and foremost, Phil Jackson was the coach. PSD can't be a forever-Phil slurpfest for the guy and then disregard what he brings to the table when it comes to talking Jordan. He had a lot to do with the Bulls' success.

Scottie Pippen is one of the 50 best players of all time. He was the best defender on the Bulls, and more often than not, took the other team's best player defensively. Not Jordan. He was averaging 20/8/5 in the Bulls' best years.

Dennis Rodman was the rebounding monster of the Chicago Bulls. Same goes for Horace Grant. People seem to forget that the Bulls didn't immediately win another title the year MJ came back. They lost to Grant's Orlando Magic in the ECF. Even the great Michael Jordan couldn't win without a legitimate inside presence.

Paxson, Armstrong, Kukoc, and Kerr were all elite shooters. You think Jordan just gets to the lane at will because he's Michael Jordan? No. He was surrounded by talented shooters who hit a lot of big time shots to win big games.


The narrative of Michael Jordan the basketball player is that from the very beginning, he was the greatest player ever. He'd defend the other team's best player, hit every big shot, and score every point. He was the sole reason that the Bulls won 6 titles. In reality, that couldn't be further from the truth. He is, in fact, the best player of all time. He stepped up when needed the most, and has 6 rings and 6 FMVPs to prove it. But in reality, he was blessed with the greatest coach ever and elite talent on his team for most of his career. It took him years to beat the Pistons. He was the original "ball hog chucker who was all about stats." But winning cures all and wipes memories clean. People say "LeBron left when Jordan stuck it out" like Jordan was working with LeBron's Cavs. Jordan had no reason to leave. He was already on that generation's dream team.

Off the court, it isn't even close. Michael Jordan was(is) a gambling addict, and by all accounts a pompous jerk. Literally, the biggest scandal of LeBron's career was that he left his old team in free agency to sign with a new one on national tv while giving millions of dollars to the Boys and Girls Club. LeBron seems like a genuinely likable guy who teammates love playing with. He's the best player in the world who will gladly pass to his teammates (even when he's on fire), and then joke with them after the game. People will never realize that, though, because any kind of positive comparisons to Jordan are borderline sacrilegious. He's the best player ever, but he's not untouchable... on or off the court.

A good post but IMO it's skewed to embellish some of the Bulls roster's talent level. Yes, Pippen was great but he didn't have Rodman through all of his 6 titles, and most of the supporting players were all internally developed IIRC. They weren't handpicked sharpshooters (Miller, Ray, Lewis) developed by someone else. That's significant to this discussion too right, since one of the big issues is "built not bought". That tagline is a good one for those of us who like to see teams develop their own players.

You have something when you say that people want Jordan to be revered as the best forever, but that's how it goes in sport. Someone establishes the standard and then people have to distinguish themselves against that player. Most are found wanting. I really think that most of it with Lebron is personal. He has more physical prowess than Jordan but he certainly doesn't have the ability to engage people the way Jordan did. It's self-evident. People didn't have conversations like this about Jordan.

This is basically a popularity contest thread and Jordan was more popular -- by a huge margin. I don't see that changing. Lebron is who he is, not especially charismatic and has a knack for putting his foot in his mouth.

It doesn't really matter, it doesn't affect his play, but it is a big reason why he's not loved like MJ was.

ManningToTyree
06-10-2014, 12:17 PM
The decision.

Chronz
06-10-2014, 12:52 PM
Great story. where you around then Chronz or are you an historian? (im honestly interested, either way)
No Im not that old, Bagwell could probably shed more light on perception of the time but I've ready a litany of books/articles from the era.

I do plan on making a historical website but I've been planning on that for 3 years now. Im not good at following through on things but it will get done.

sammyvine
06-10-2014, 01:05 PM
A good post but IMO it's skewed to embellish some of the Bulls roster's talent level. Yes, Pippen was great but he didn't have Rodman through all of his 6 titles, and most of the supporting players were all internally developed IIRC. They weren't handpicked sharpshooters (Miller, Ray, Lewis) developed by someone else. That's significant to this discussion too right, since one of the big issues is "built not bought". That tagline is a good one for those of us who like to see teams develop their own players.

You have something when you say that people want Jordan to be revered as the best forever, but that's how it goes in sport. Someone establishes the standard and then people have to distinguish themselves against that player. Most are found wanting. I really think that most of it with Lebron is personal. He has more physical prowess than Jordan but he certainly doesn't have the ability to engage people the way Jordan did. It's self-evident. People didn't have conversations like this about Jordan.

This is basically a popularity contest thread and Jordan was more popular -- by a huge margin. I don't see that changing. Lebron is who he is, not especially charismatic and has a knack for putting his foot in his mouth.

It doesn't really matter, it doesn't affect his play, but it is a big reason why he's not loved like MJ was.

Pretty much this
The fact jordan is,retired but still sells more shoes than lebron says it all

cooters22
06-10-2014, 01:10 PM
Arrogance. The way he left Cleveland.

ewing
06-10-2014, 06:28 PM
No Im not that old, Bagwell could probably shed more light on perception of the time but I've ready a litany of books/articles from the era.

I do plan on making a historical website but I've been planning on that for 3 years now. Im not good at following through on things but it will get done.



let me know if it is ever up and running. i think your writing style and content go nicely.

Tony_Starks
06-10-2014, 06:41 PM
Lebron is hated? Every time I turn on the TV all I hear is he's the "best player on the planet" who is singlehandedly bringing championships to Miami.

That's hate?

WadeKobe
06-10-2014, 07:03 PM
Everyone respected him in Cleveland. then when he did the big media whore event to stick the knife in Clevelands back to go to south beach, everyone outside of Miami thought he was a dick

oh, and the fact he colluded with bosh and wade to win easy rings didnt help either

This opinion is literally dumb as hell.

imagesrdecievin
06-10-2014, 09:17 PM
If the comparison is being made to Jordan than it's because Jordan is generally accepted as one of the fiercest competitors of all time.

Lebron teaming up with Wade and Bosh is as opposite as you can get from being a fierce competitor.



I know comparing to pick up basketball is silly - but I'll try it anyway:

There's always one guy who is one of the two best players in the gym who tries to manipulate what team he is on either by missing a free throw on purpose or sitting a game voluntarily in order to team himself up with the other best player in the gym.

Rather than going up against the guy who is clearly his competition - he'd rather team up with him and coast. I have nothing but contempt for guys like this and it sums up why I feel the way i do about Lebron.

DemarDerozan
06-11-2014, 12:00 AM
Because Lebron is not very likeable?

DemarDerozan
06-11-2014, 12:09 AM
Also because he is not a true competitor.
Because he is not genuine.
Because he took the easy route to get to the Finals.
Because he takes steroids.
Oh and because he embarrassed the team that drafted him on national TV in a time slot he and his backers purchased.

Oh and because guys like Goran Dragic, John Wall and Lemarcus Aldridge have twice the heart and dedication as him but get one percent of the media coverage.

DemarDerozan
06-11-2014, 12:18 AM
Because lebron looks like dikembe and greg oden had a baby.

Chrisclover
06-11-2014, 12:25 AM
Because alot of people didn't realize how big of a douche Jordan was. He wasn't nearly as overexposed as players are these days.

Incredibly lascivious.

beyourself
06-11-2014, 12:39 AM
LeBron is very aware of his perception and it's like he's constantly living his life worrying about that. Jordan didn't do that, he just lived, he just played, he just talked, he just did what felt natural.

ewing
06-11-2014, 12:50 AM
LeBron is very aware of his perception and it's like he's constantly living his life worrying about that. Jordan didn't do that, he just lived, he just played, he just talked, he just did what felt natural.


Jordan invented controlling your imagine to make a brand. He made his buddy
ahmad rashad an NBA guy so he could give all his interviews to his pal. He was just more likable doing it.

ewing
06-11-2014, 12:51 AM
LeBron never smiles after he scores.

amos1er
06-11-2014, 05:55 AM
The media overhyped Lebron to the point where it just became obnoxious and so did his fan base.

Jordan simply created his own hype.

That's the difference.

matt800
06-11-2014, 06:15 AM
MJ had an amazing competitive spirit and drive to win. It was so amazing that it was inspiring for mostly everyone.

Lebron does not have that. He's just another player out there, who is more athletic and skilled than others. That might be fun to watch, but it doesn't really do much for making him likable.

Shlumpledink
06-11-2014, 06:53 AM
A lot of older basketball fans didn't like him a whole lot. Young fans loved Jordan. I imagine a lot of young fans like Lebron a lot, and they should, he is their generation's best player.

Jordan didn't have the media scrutiny that modern players have. The 24hr news cycle loves comparing current players infavorably to former players. It is effective "journalism"

Teufelshunde4
06-11-2014, 07:14 AM
I just want to know your thoughts,
Why is LeBron not loved by most nba fans when he is clearly the best player right now?
(Probably 50% loves him, 50% hates him)

While Jordan, as i remember was clearly hailed by everyone. I was still young back then but i dont remember people hating on him.

While growing up, i noticed people always love the great players,
Kobe, tmac, vince.
But when it comes to lebron?
Im nt so sure..

Personally I dont hate Lebron.. The guy is a winner.. Lebron gets knocked for being hyped as the next MJ even before he came into the league. While everyone remembers MJ and even if you never watched him play has seen highlights. But MJ had his issues as a young player.. MJ was viewed as being a selfish player for many years. MJ largely destroyed his critics over the last 6 full seasons in Chicago. MJ was crating iconic moments every season and esp every Finals he played in. Lebron hasnt ever reached that level.. And while Lebron will go down as one of the best ever to play.. He will never hold a candle to MJ IMO..

For the record I dislike the Heat intensely.. Not for any one player.. But for the fact that the whole free agent tour to all these teams was a sham. They were going to Miami long before it happened. ANd in my eyes they played fans for fools and media for free press coverage.

KnicksorBust
06-11-2014, 07:23 AM
I think it's important to point out that scorers tend to be very popular with fans (Iverson-TMac-Kobe-Melo-Durant). Not only did Jordan win the DPOY award, the MVP award, the FMVP award... but he also won the scoring title 10 times! LeBron has only won it once. LeBron is so focused on being an all-around player that 28-8-8 isn't as worthy of a "hey flip your channel, you gotta see LeBron going for a triple double" as other things like Kobe going off for 81 or Durant averaging 40ppg for a month. That's why his "48 Special" against Detroit was such a thrill. We felt like he was going Jordan-mode on them.

Tony_Starks
06-11-2014, 10:21 AM
A lot of older basketball fans didn't like him a whole lot. Young fans loved Jordan. I imagine a lot of young fans like Lebron a lot, and they should, he is their generation's best player.

Jordan didn't have the media scrutiny that modern players have. The 24hr news cycle loves comparing current players infavorably to former players. It is effective "journalism"

This. I remember Jordan being disliked by many but as you said the kids basically worshipped him. But still he didn't get this immortal God status until retirement. I suspect the same for Lebron.

Perfect example is Kobe. Still gets ridiculous hate/ discrediting to this very day but when he's gone and people reflect on his accomplishments it's going to be like "wow, he really did that? What was it like to watch that?"

ManRam
06-11-2014, 10:39 AM
This. I remember Jordan being disliked by many but as you said the kids basically worshipped him. But still he didn't get this immortal God status until retirement. I suspect the same for Lebron.

Perfect example is Kobe. Still gets ridiculous hate/ discrediting to this very day but when he's gone and people reflect on his accomplishments it's going to be like "wow, he really did that? What was it like to watch that?"

Kobe dealt with a ton of dislike too. For sure. Probably more than anyone in his era.

Just out of curiosity, who do you think has had it worse in the hate department, LeBron or Kobe?

SLY WILLIAMS
06-11-2014, 01:39 PM
Many Knicks fans hated Jordan but respected him.
Some Detroit fans and maybe Indiana fans disliked Jordan as well.

The difference is their hatred was mostly based on team rivalries. Fans of many teams dislike Lebron.

It doesn't mean Lebron is a bad guy. They just dislike some of the things he has done and said in the last 5-7 years.

J4KOP99
06-11-2014, 07:24 PM
He's black

jeter 2
06-11-2014, 07:58 PM
The reason why Lebron is hated and Jordan is loved is because the decision. The day Lebron made the decision, he and his friends basically ended pretty much the 29 other teams chances to win a title. Luckily the Spurs became a strong rival, but that day he made the decision, I remember thinking that he screwed the entire league over.

That's just my two sense.