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View Full Version : NBA 1st all defensive vs 2nd all defensive team



mdm692
06-02-2014, 02:35 PM
http://www.hoopsrumors.com/2014/06/joakim-leads-defensive.html

1st team
CP3
PG
Iggy
Ibaka
Noah

2nd team
Beverly
Butler
Leonard
LBJ
Hibbert

Who you got?

Also feel free to discuss the teams and who missed out that should of been included.

KnicksorBust
06-02-2014, 02:38 PM
Looks good to me. Thought we might see Duncan or Tony Allen but no real gripes.

kdspurman
06-02-2014, 02:38 PM
Happy for Kawhi to be on there. Not sure about CP3 this past year either, but I know how this works sometimes. Allen probably should have been on 1 of these teams too IMO.

Disgusted James Harden received 2 votes.

Bruno
06-02-2014, 02:48 PM
LBJ shouldn't be on a defensive team this year. he's only getting in due to reputation :)

Allen should be on the team. toss up between him and butler for the starting gig. paul george who plays SF, should be the first team SF, with Leonoard and the second team SF.

P&GRealist
06-02-2014, 02:48 PM
This breaks LeBron's 5 consecutive appearances on the defensive 1st team. It is true that his defense did slip a little bit this season compared to previous ones. But still commendable for the GOAT. It's a coach's popularity contest anyways so who cares.

ManRam
06-02-2014, 02:49 PM
Nice to see voters actually recognize that LeBron wasn't his normal all-world defensive self. Would have been cool to see a young guy like Draymond or MKG make it. But what do you expect. He'll forever get votes a la Jeter Bryant.

It's a better list than I'd expect.

Gasol, Bogut, and Dwight were hardly any worse than Ibaka, Noah and Hibbert, if at all. So many good options at center/PF and it's really nit-picky at that point. Jordan too (he still remains a tad overrated defensively). Let alone Garnett, Gortat and Taj.

I'm guessing Tony Allen just missed too much time.

P&GRealist
06-02-2014, 02:49 PM
LBJ shouldn't be on a defensive team this year. he's only getting in due to reputation :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sd9OW4sAlIE

Bruno
06-02-2014, 02:52 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sd9OW4sAlIE

when we finish talking about LBJs legacy in five years remind me to pretend like he was never a good defender at any point in his career because he started earning defensive team nods he didn't deserve starting in 2014. :)

kdspurman
06-02-2014, 02:53 PM
Nice to see voters actually recognize that LeBron wasn't his normal all-world defensive self. Would have been cool to see a young guy like Draymond or MKG make it. But what do you expect. He'll forever get votes a la Jeter Bryant.

It's a better list than I'd expect.

Gasol, Bogut, and Dwight were hardly any worse than Ibaka, Noah and Hibbert, if at all. So many good options at center/PF and it's really nit-picky at that point. Jordan too (he still remains a tad overrated defensively). Let alone Garnett, Gortat and Taj.

I'm guessing Tony Allen just missed too much time.

Interesting though, CP3 played in only 7 more games than Allen.

P&GRealist
06-02-2014, 02:55 PM
Duwwwwuiitttee Howard, former 3x DPOY not on either one of those defensive teams.


The Dwight we all once knew and loved.....IS GONE!

Chronz
06-02-2014, 03:00 PM
I can honestly say this is the best they have done in quite some time. These things are starting to get more respectable now that reputation more accurately reflects reality. Sometimes theres a lag time but once its settled, we get some decent results for awhile. Wait until Brons 33 and still making All-Defensive teams till it gets ugly again.


Happy for Kawhi to be on there. Not sure about CP3 this past year either, but I know how this works sometimes. Allen probably should have been on 1 of these teams too IMO.

Disgusted James Harden received 2 votes.
Harden is a total liability but maybe those coaches wanted him to get more respect for his post defense aka fatness.

As for CP3, hes a difference maker defensively, that much is certain. Hes probably getting a boost for providing it at the PG position as opposed to being a SG who can lockdown PG's. I know its a guard - forward thing, but positional impact still matters some.

Kaner
06-02-2014, 03:02 PM
to the op question 1st team definitely after Lebron nobody on the 2nd team can score regularly

Lebron shouldn't have even made the team this year though. He doesn't give near the consistent effort on that end as every other name on this list.

Goose17
06-02-2014, 03:04 PM
Thought Allen would be there.

Happy to see Iguodala on there, crazy to think he's never been on the all-defense first team before considering how elite he is defensively. He was great for us defensively for the most part but he's had better years and not made it, strange.

kdspurman
06-02-2014, 03:04 PM
I can honestly say this is the best they have done in quite some time. These things are starting to get more respectable now that reputation more accurately reflects reality. Sometimes theres a lag time but once its settled, we get some decent results for awhile. Wait until Brons 33 and still making All-Defensive teams till it gets ugly again.


Harden is a total liability but maybe those coaches wanted him to get more respect for his post defense aka fatness.

As for CP3, hes a difference maker defensively, that much is certain. Hes probably getting a boost for providing it at the PG position as opposed to being a SG who can lockdown PG's. I know its a guard - forward thing, but positional impact still matters some.

Maybe you're right on the Harden thing. Just seems totally wrong though. Maybe people just trolling.

I agree on CP3, I realize his impact. Initially I thought he missed more games than what he actually did, so I guess it's not that bad.

2-ONE-5
06-02-2014, 03:04 PM
its about time Iggy made the first team

ManRam
06-02-2014, 03:06 PM
Interesting though, CP3 played in only 7 more games than Allen.

Yeah. And only 3 more than Gasol. Allen and Gasol are both top 5 or so defenders in my opinion. If 62 games gets CP3 on the first team, 59 should get Marc in. Actually, I don't know...because C is stacked like I said. 55 is close though. But still, Allen is just so freaking good.


And I don't think CP3 had a poor defensive year at all. He kinda squeaks in by default. He certainly benefits from being the only star PG that is really regarded as a great defender (fair or not). Curry, Westbrook (had a down defensive season, and missed a lot of time), Parker, Wall, Irving, etc. etc. etc. aren't considered on the same tier. Rubio and Bevs are the only real contenders. And hell, I think Hawkeye even thinks Rubio's defense is overrated. Bledsoe and Holiday missed way too much time. I know it's just two "guard" spots, but I'm sure a lot of voters break it down even more so by position.

Sadds The Gr8
06-02-2014, 03:08 PM
I like these 2 all defense teams but the idiots who gave harden 2 votes should have their voting rights revoked. Enough of these incompetent morons voting for awards. Just makes the awards lose credibility

Goose17
06-02-2014, 03:20 PM
Out of point guards I though Beverley would have gotten more votes.

JasonJohnHorn
06-02-2014, 03:39 PM
Guys I would have included: Anthony Davis, Mike Conley, Tony Allen and Tim Duncan.

I didn't watch a lot of Heat games this year, but from what I heard, LBJ's defense wasn't where it has been in the past, and I find it odd that Duncan's teammate Leonard gets on when Duncan doesn't.

Didn't watch any Houston games this year.... how good is Beverly on defense? That was a name I was surprised to see, not that he's not deserving. And Houston fans want to offer their thoughts on P.B.?

Lakers + Giants
06-02-2014, 04:16 PM
Harden receiving votes? Lmao

that's worse than when kobe made the defensive teams based on reputation.

Rndy
06-02-2014, 04:41 PM
Poor Gibson got screwed on the sixth man award and now didn't even make the all D team good thing for the Bulls cap but still messed up.

Iggz53
06-02-2014, 04:45 PM
People receiving votes that made me lol lots:

- Danny Granger
- David Lee
- James Harden
- Monta Ellis
- DeMar DeRozan
- Reggie Jackson
- Stephen Curry (received a 1st Team vote)
- Tony Parker (received a 1st Team vote)

Goose17
06-02-2014, 05:21 PM
Didn't watch any Houston games this year.... how good is Beverly on defense? That was a name I was surprised to see, not that he's not deserving. And Houston fans want to offer their thoughts on P.B.?

I'm not a Houston fan but I did watch my fair share of Houston games and Beverley is almost a throw back defensively. He's so aggressive and an absolute pest. I really respect his game on that side of the floor, he makes mistakes now and then and seems to be a little hot headed at times but in terms of on ball defense, I think he's one of the best at his position already and he's still young, he'll only get better. He's quite good at defending the pick and roll as well, recovers quickly.

numba1CHANGsta
06-02-2014, 05:47 PM
That 2nd team looks horrible :facepalm:

Bruno
06-02-2014, 05:51 PM
why didn't Iggy guard Chris Paul in the first round if he's still one of the best defenders in the NBA?

goingfor28
06-02-2014, 06:23 PM
Ummmm some idiots gave James Harden, David Lee, and Danny Granger a vote for 2nd team

PatsSoxKnicks
06-02-2014, 06:33 PM
why didn't Iggy guard Chris Paul in the first round if he's still one of the best defenders in the NBA?

Because Mark Jackson was their coach.....

Iggy's defensive RAPM was excellent this year, so he still has a very high impact on the defensive end.

PatsSoxKnicks
06-02-2014, 06:34 PM
Lebron shouldn't have made it this year. It's obvious he can be a great defender when he wants to be but he coasted during the season. Plain and simple- he coasted on D. Still a great defender but he didn't put forth the consistent effort required to be on either team (and can't blame him, he needs to conserve his energy for offense/playoffs)

ManRam
06-02-2014, 06:35 PM
why didn't Iggy guard Chris Paul in the first round if he's still one of the best defenders in the NBA?

Maybe he just can't guard PGs? I don't know. He's a true and true SF these days. Klay probably is a bit shiftier and able to stay in front of the smaller/quicker guys. I don't think that's a knock on Iggy though. When he guards SG/SFs - which is the position he plays - he was amazing. According to 82games (I always take HUGE grains of salt with them) he didn't really guard many PGs and when he did it went poorly. The numbers do support that when guarding SG/SF he was insanely good, tho. Klay's not as good of a defender, but I think at this stage of their careers he can stay with the smaller/quicker PGs far better.

Also, Mark Jackson.

But Iggy, based on any metric in the world, was just an absurdly amazing defender this year. And the eye-test certainly doesn't fail either.



Oh, and Darren Collison is an egregiously awful vote-getter too. Don't omit him, guys!

Hawkeye15
06-02-2014, 07:03 PM
LBJ shouldn't be on a defensive team this year. he's only getting in due to reputation :)

Allen should be on the team. toss up between him and butler for the starting gig. paul george who plays SF, should be the first team SF, with Leonoard and the second team SF.

start year 1 of many where he makes the all defensive team despite not belonging there due to name. We all know it happens all the time.

James Harden received a vote? Jesus.

Hawkeye15
06-02-2014, 07:06 PM
Lebron shouldn't have made it this year. It's obvious he can be a great defender when he wants to be but he coasted during the season. Plain and simple- he coasted on D. Still a great defender but he didn't put forth the consistent effort required to be on either team (and can't blame him, he needs to conserve his energy for offense/playoffs)

should Kobe have been on them for the last 4 years he made it? Should Pippen really have been making 1st team that late in his career, and 2nd team later? It happens. Doesn't make it right, but it's common

Ezio
06-02-2014, 08:16 PM
Maybe he just can't guard PGs? I don't know. He's a true and true SF these days. Klay probably is a bit shiftier and able to stay in front of the smaller/quicker guys. I don't think that's a knock on Iggy though. When he guards SG/SFs - which is the position he plays - he was amazing. According to 82games (I always take HUGE grains of salt with them) he didn't really guard many PGs and when he did it went poorly. The numbers do support that when guarding SG/SF he was insanely good, tho. Klay's not as good of a defender, but I think at this stage of their careers he can stay with the smaller/quicker PGs far better.

Also, Mark Jackson.

But Iggy, based on any metric in the world, was just an absurdly amazing defender this year. And the eye-test certainly doesn't fail either.



Oh, and Darren Collison is an egregiously awful vote-getter too. Don't omit him, guys!


Call me biased but you'll have a hard time convincing me that Andre Igoudala was a better perimeter defender than Jimmy Butler this year. I just don't see any reasoning behind that. At least with the Tony Allen snub he missed some time and Memphis' defense struggled without Gasol.
Butler: 2,591 MP 100 Def/Rt 4.6 DWS 1.8 SP36 1.5 FP36
Iggy: 2,040 MP 103 Def/Rt 3.1 DWS 1.7 SP36 1.8 FP36
(Total minutes played, Defensive Rating, Defensive Win Shares, Steals Per 36 and Fouls per 36)
Butler was better at forcing turnovers, played more minutes, (nearly 600 more) helped lead a team with significantly better defense, and didn't have another defender like Thompson to help him out. He has a better Defensive Rating and more Defensive Win Shares too, despite his team having fewer wins. By all accounts Jimmy had an awful year on offense and his PER is still only .2 lower than Iggy's. (13.5 vs 13.7)
Now I dislike using stats to quantify defensive ability but in the most respected defensive categories Jimmy is either noticeably better or at least edges Iggy out. He did so while carrying a larger defensive load as well. When you see the individual defense that these two played this year I don't think there's any doubt that Butler is better.
If Jimmy Butler wasn't a 1st team All Defense player this season then I'm not sure who was.

From a poster in bulls reddit.

Asik's better
06-02-2014, 08:42 PM
Honestly who cares that harden got 2 votes. That is dumbest thing ever to be annoyed about. Defensive teams look good to me. If I had one small gripe it would be hibbert made it ahead of Howard, jordan and Davis. But at the end of the day it doesn't really matter.

MrfadeawayJB
06-02-2014, 08:48 PM
TA sort of got snubbed but he was injured, and the votes were counted prior to the postseason

Shlumpledink
06-02-2014, 09:24 PM
Tony Allen got robbed

Hawkeye15
06-02-2014, 09:26 PM
Honestly who cares that harden got 2 votes. That is dumbest thing ever to be annoyed about. Defensive teams look good to me. If I had one small gripe it would be hibbert made it ahead of Howard, jordan and Davis. But at the end of the day it doesn't really matter.

Harden deserves to have negative votes haha, cmon.

But really, who cares.

Crackadalic
06-02-2014, 10:08 PM
How taj Gibson didn't get on is beyond me

SPURSFAN1
06-02-2014, 10:33 PM
Kawhi got robbed. Easily first team.

mightybosstone
06-03-2014, 12:28 AM
Duwwwwuiitttee Howard, former 3x DPOY not on either one of those defensive teams.


The Dwight we all once knew and loved.....IS GONE!

This is just ********. Anyone who watched the Rockets this year could tell you that he absolutely anchored Houston defensively and kept them in games they should have lost because he was so dominant on that end of the floor. All-defensive teams are so often a popularity contest and Noah and Hibbert were just the prettier girls at the ball this year. In terms of actual defensive impact, I'd like to see you actually prove to me that Noah or Hibbert are better defensive players than Dwight Howard.

jerellh528
06-03-2014, 02:31 AM
Woulda preferred davis over james. But decent selections this yr.

MagicBucsSox
06-03-2014, 03:15 AM
Lmao hell yeah Oladipo received a first team vote. That boy good.
Paul George is the next overrated player the media and league is trying to force upon us. No Pacer should be all nba nothing .

akesh99
06-03-2014, 04:46 AM
As a raps fan I was a little disappointed not to see Lowry up there. Dude was taking charges like a boss.

amos1er
06-03-2014, 06:14 AM
should Kobe have been on them for the last 4 years he made it? Should Pippen really have been making 1st team that late in his career, and 2nd team later? It happens. Doesn't make it right, but it's common

I have to say that I agree with this. All NBA teams and Defensive teams are very subjective awards as are MVP trophies. They have little merit and are awards that are not won by talent or fortitude, rather they are voted on by a select few who's opinions we are supposed to trust and respect for some reason. Kobe should not have made an All-NBA Defensive Team past 2010. IMO, All-NBA Teams and MVP trophies should have little to do with a players overall greatness. Subjective awards based on a majority opinion of a select few are not something that we should hold credible when evaluating how much of an overall impact a player had.

Teeboy1487
06-03-2014, 06:15 AM
Guys I would have included: Anthony Davis, Mike Conley, Tony Allen and Tim Duncan.

I didn't watch a lot of Heat games this year, but from what I heard, LBJ's defense wasn't where it has been in the past, and I find it odd that Duncan's teammate Leonard gets on when Duncan doesn't.

Didn't watch any Houston games this year.... how good is Beverly on defense? That was a name I was surprised to see, not that he's not deserving. And Houston fans want to offer their thoughts on P.B.?
I agree that Davis should have been in Lebron's spot on the second team. I watched Lebron this year and his defense was ok but not nearly on the level of Elite NBA defenders.

naps
06-03-2014, 06:15 AM
So NBA's finest perimeter stopper didn't make any of these teams?

And I am a huge CP3 fan but no way he's first team.

naps
06-03-2014, 06:20 AM
I have to say that I agree with this. All NBA teams and Defensive teams are very subjective awards as are MVP trophies. They have little merit and are awards that are not won by talent or fortitude, rather they are voted on by a select few who's opinions we are supposed to trust and respect for some reason. Kobe should not have made an All-NBA Defensive Team past 2010. IMO, All-NBA Teams and MVP trophies should have little to do with a players overall greatness. Subjective awards based on a majority opinion of a select few are not something that we should hold credible when evaluating how much of an overall impact a player had.

LOL I see what you're trying. But too bad for you MVP awards matter...A LOT actually in comparing players and for individual legacy unlike all-defense teams. And voters usually get that award right 99% of the time unlike these all-defense teams.

amos1er
06-03-2014, 06:36 AM
LOL I see what you're trying. But too bad for you MVP awards matter...A LOT actually in comparing players and for individual legacy unlike all-defense teams. And voters usually get that award right 99% of the time unlike these all-defense teams.

Where are you pulling these numbers from???

How can one respect one subjective award system while at the same time condemning another???

It honestly makes no sense.

If anything, members of the media would be more susceptible to ulterior motives and agenda's than NBA coaches would be. An NBA coach doesn't depend the element of politics at all compared to a member of the media. Either way, don't want to have that debate. If I am condemning one award on the basis of subjectivity, I must logically condemn the other by the same principles in the name of fairness. It's not really logical to respect and accept MVP awards while at the same time denouncing All-NBA Teams and Defensive Teams. Can't have your cake and eat it too.

Lo Porto
06-03-2014, 06:44 AM
start year 1 of many where he makes the all defensive team despite not belonging there due to name. We all know it happens all the time.

Yep. For crying out loud, MJ won the NBA DPOY and he wasn't ever even Chicago DPOY.

To LeBron's credit, he is a top perimeter defender when he applies himself. 2nd team isn't really insulting anybody who vastly deserved it over him.

Lo Porto
06-03-2014, 06:51 AM
One thing they should stop doing with this team award is stop trying to build teams. IMO, you don't have to have a PG. Just put the top 5 defenders regardless of position on the first team and next on the 2nd team.

Chris Paul isn't a top 10 NBA defender. Beverly probably isn't either. Guys like Butler, Allen, Dwight, and Davis have more defensive impact.

Hawkeye15
06-03-2014, 07:57 AM
I have to say that I agree with this. All NBA teams and Defensive teams are very subjective awards as are MVP trophies. They have little merit and are awards that are not won by talent or fortitude, rather they are voted on by a select few who's opinions we are supposed to trust and respect for some reason. Kobe should not have made an All-NBA Defensive Team past 2010. IMO, All-NBA Teams and MVP trophies should have little to do with a players overall greatness. Subjective awards based on a majority opinion of a select few are not something that we should hold credible when evaluating how much of an overall impact a player had.

MVP trophies have a lot more merit than all defensive teams. At least they put some effort into the selection, even if there have been misses plenty of times. All defensive teams are like golden gloves. Every single year they can be picked apart to death.

Hawkeye15
06-03-2014, 07:59 AM
LOL I see what you're trying. But too bad for you MVP awards matter...A LOT actually in comparing players and for individual legacy unlike all-defense teams. And voters usually get that award right 99% of the time unlike these all-defense teams.

I would wager that they get the MVP award right around 65% of the time, where as all defensive teams are right about 10% of the time.

I can slap together a list of MVP awards that were just b.s. But yeah, just about every single year, if not every single year, there are 3-4 players on the all defensive teams that have zero business being there.

Hawkeye15
06-03-2014, 08:00 AM
Where are you pulling these numbers from???

How can one respect one subjective award system while at the same time condemning another???

It honestly makes no sense.

If anything, members of the media would be more susceptible to ulterior motives and agenda's than NBA coaches would be. An NBA coach doesn't depend the element of politics at all compared to a member of the media. Either way, don't want to have that debate. If I am condemning one award on the basis of subjectivity, I must logically condemn the other by the same principles in the name of fairness. It's not really logical to respect and accept MVP awards while at the same time denouncing All-NBA Teams and Defensive Teams. Can't have your cake and eat it too.

if one of them has a higher level of consistency on being correct, it can be respected more.

Hawkeye15
06-03-2014, 08:02 AM
Yep. For crying out loud, MJ won the NBA DPOY and he wasn't ever even Chicago DPOY.

To LeBron's credit, he is a top perimeter defender when he applies himself. 2nd team isn't really insulting anybody who vastly deserved it over him.

to be fair, LeBron doesn't deserve to be on the 2nd team. But, as I said, its a common thing to put guys who have been on it forever on the teams for a few years after they should have been booted. The most recent example is for sure Kobe. He didn't belong on the last 4 all defensive teams he made. This will be year 1 of a handful that LeBron makes it and shouldn't have.

Chrisclover
06-03-2014, 08:10 AM
Looks good to me. Thought we might see Duncan or Tony Allen but no real gripes.

My only gripe is that LBJ fell to the second team. Should have been on the 1st, imo

Chrisclover
06-03-2014, 08:12 AM
Happy for Kawhi to be on there. Not sure about CP3 this past year either, but I know how this works sometimes. Allen probably should have been on 1 of these teams too IMO.

Disgusted James Harden received 2 votes.

Wonder if those dumb journalists have balls to admit they casted the ballots for Har_en. He has no D !!!

amos1er
06-03-2014, 08:16 AM
if one of them has a higher level of consistency on being correct, it can be respected more.

Who among us it truly qualified to judge whether or not one is more correct than the other.

Hawkeye15
06-03-2014, 08:46 AM
Who among us it truly qualified to judge whether or not one is more correct than the other.

its pretty easy to screw up more when you are making 10 selections versus 1, especially when one is weighted much more, hence, taken more seriously by the voters.

Like I said in my reply to another poster, I could name plenty of MVP's that went to the wrong person. But I can also name a few players every single year that shouldn't be on the all defensive teams. They get those teams wrong far more often than they do MVP.

Not sure if you are coming from the "Kobe only has 1, it must be wrong" narrative on this or what, but its true.

Tony_Starks
06-03-2014, 10:48 AM
Swap out Lebron for Tony Allen and I'm good.

I actually found it funny that Harden got a couple votes. They were obviously trolling him, dude is a pylon on defense.

amos1er
06-03-2014, 11:33 PM
its pretty easy to screw up more when you are making 10 selections versus 1,

Good point.


especially when one is weighted much more, hence, taken more seriously by the voters.

Eh, I don't know if an awards importance make voters more or less bias. If anything, the media is more bias and less knowledgable than NBA coaches.


Like I said in my reply to another poster, I could name plenty of MVP's that went to the wrong person. But I can also name a few players every single year that shouldn't be on the all defensive teams. They get those teams wrong far more often than they do MVP.

As you said above... More of a sample size for Defensive Teams than MVP awards. With 10 Defensive Team selections per year compared to only one MVP award selection per year... Of course you could name more undeserving All Defensive Team player selections than undeserving MVP award winners.


Not sure if you are coming from the "Kobe only has 1, it must be wrong" narrative on this or what, but its true.

Now that you bring it up... Kobe only having one is pretty bad... As well as Shaq only having one. I would say that has more to do with a media bias towards the Lakers than anything else IMO. There are members of the media who just won't vote for a Laker Superstar no matter what. They used the logic that Kobe and Shaq had each other and therefore too much help. Funny how that logic didn't apply to Lebron when he had Wade and Bosh. After Shaq left, I feel it was the rape charges coupled with the fact that Kobe was still a Laker that swayed a lot of votes from the media away from him. Much like in any voting system, there is going to be bias. I accept that and take these MVP awards for what they are worth.

Chronz
06-04-2014, 12:29 AM
Eh, I don't know if an awards importance make voters more or less bias. If anything, the media is more bias and less knowledgable than NBA coaches.
Coaches dont watch all teams as regularly. They are more prone to small sample bias. If you ask Shane Battier, he would tell you he respects the medias defensive breakdown more than coaches who often times dont even vote themselves, they rather pass it down to the assistants.

FKS1994
06-04-2014, 12:38 AM
mvp is more clear cut. I am a die hard lakers fan but i will be the first to tell you that kobe deserved the mvp maybe twice, but no more than that. Shaq deserved more than one for sure. but we have to ask ourselves, does mvp mean the best player? often times, not. Rose was not the best player, barkley was not, Karl was not, so yes, media has a lot to do with it. Kobe rape case certainly not a factor imo seeing as it occurred after the season ended for them and so he had a terrible season the next. more-so kobe was not the best player of lal until Shaq left. sorry but that is true, shaq would be a four time finals mvp if they had won 2002-03, no denying that if you ask me. one more thing regarding these defensive teams, it is a joke for years. lebron should not be all nba defensive first team for at least two of those years that he was chosen and this year he certainly was not, with him often choosing the showdown defense rather than defending all game.

amos1er
06-04-2014, 01:59 AM
Coaches dont watch all teams as regularly. They are more prone to small sample bias.

True that may somewhat balance out the media's overall lack of knowledge in comparison to the coaches, but they can't really be watching all that much more. Even still, I respect an experts opinion with a slightly lesser sample size than an amateur's over a slightly larger sample size. Also have to take into account that even though coaches aren't watching every singe game, their scouts are and they are reporting back to the coaches daily.


If you ask Shane Battier, he would tell you he respects the medias defensive breakdown more than coaches

We are not on speaking terms at the moment.

Even still... A single opinion isn't enough to sway a debate one way or another.


who often times dont even vote themselves, they rather pass it down to the assistants.

Can you site an example, or is this hearsay?

Kaner
06-04-2014, 03:02 AM
Now that you bring it up... Kobe only having one is pretty bad... As well as Shaq only having one. I would say that has more to do with a media bias towards the Lakers than anything else IMO. There are members of the media who just won't vote for a Laker Superstar no matter what. They used the logic that Kobe and Shaq had each other and therefore too much help. Funny how that logic didn't apply to Lebron when he had Wade and Bosh. After Shaq left, I feel it was the rape charges coupled with the fact that Kobe was still a Laker that swayed a lot of votes from the media away from him. Much like in any voting system, there is going to be bias. I accept that and take these MVP awards for what they are worth.

No. It was the whole his teams were hovering around 40 wins and never more then 45 that kept him from winning. every player who has won the award has played for a team with at least a .610 winning percentage (equal to 50 regular-season wins in an 82-game season.) They literally gave it to him the first reasonable opportunity they had for him to win. Shaq having only one is more unreasonable since I can actually point to seasons were I think he should have won most notably 00-01 over Iverson and maybe 01-02 over Duncan.

FKS1994
06-04-2014, 03:17 AM
No. It was the whole his teams were hovering around 40 wins and never more then 45 that kept him from winning. every player who has won the award has played for a team with at least a .610 winning percentage (equal to 50 regular-season wins in an 82-game season.) They literally gave it to him the first reasonable opportunity they had for him to win. Shaq having only one is more unreasonable since I can actually point to seasons were I think he should have won most notably 00-01 over Iverson and maybe 01-02 over Duncan.

Yes, that year in which A.I won was completely media. Shaq dominated all categories, and hell i think webber and duncan had more of a case than A.I.

A.I finished first
Duncan second
Shaq third
Webber fourth

Should be

Shaq
Duncan
Webber
A.I

but whatever.

amos1er
06-04-2014, 03:29 AM
No. It was the whole his teams were hovering around 40 wins and never more then 45 that kept him from winning. every player who has won the award has played for a team with at least a .610 winning percentage (equal to 50 regular-season wins in an 82-game season.) They literally gave it to him the first reasonable opportunity they had for him to win. Shaq having only one is more unreasonable since I can actually point to seasons were I think he should have won most notably 00-01 over Iverson and maybe 01-02 over Duncan.

Wrong. The 76 Lakers finished the season with only 40 wins and Kareem still won the MVP.

amos1er
06-04-2014, 03:31 AM
Yes, that year in which A.I won was completely media. Shaq dominated all categories, and hell i think webber and duncan had more of a case than A.I.

A.I finished first
Duncan second
Shaq third
Webber fourth

Should be

Shaq
Duncan
Webber
A.I

but whatever.

Yup.

Chronz
06-04-2014, 03:42 AM
True that may somewhat balance out the media's overall lack of knowledge in comparison to the coaches, but they can't really be watching all that much more. Even still, I respect an experts opinion with a slightly lesser sample size than an amateur's over a slightly larger sample size. Also have to take into account that even though coaches aren't watching every singe game, their scouts are and they are reporting back to the coaches daily.
I think it depends on the individual more than their occupation. I couldn't give 2 ***** what a proven oaf like Dunleavy thinks for example. And while there is no way to know for sure, I highly doubt coaches watch anywhere near as much footage as guys with less loyalty to a single franchise. When you notice just how idiotic some coaches can be, and just how brilliant some of these writers are, you stop thinking in your extreme terms. The amateur can very well be the coach in this situation, and a player as smart as Battier would agree. The reason they are coaches doesn't always have to do with x's and o's.



We are not on speaking terms at the moment.
Hence the word, IF.


Even still... A single opinion isn't enough to sway a debate one way or another.
That wasn't my intention (attempting to change your mind is just fool hardy) , just to show just how deep this opinion can go, one of the more brilliant minds in basketball would agree that the Coaches do a worse job.



Can you site an example, or is this hearsay?
Its been cited by various sources in the past, is it really that surprising to you?

Kaner
06-04-2014, 03:44 AM
Wrong. The 76 Lakers finished the season with only 40 wins and Kareem still won the MVP.

okay. You had to go back over 30 years to find the last time it's happened (which was in 81-82 with Moses), and my point still stands he didn't win because his teams didn't win.

amos1er
06-04-2014, 04:15 AM
I think it depends on the individual more than their occupation.

This is true. Same could be said about members of the media however.


I couldn't give 2 ***** what a proven oaf like Dunleavy thinks for example. And while there is no way to know for sure, I highly doubt coaches watch anywhere near as much footage as guys with less loyalty to a single franchise. When you notice just how idiotic some coaches can be, and just how brilliant some of these writers are, you stop thinking in your extreme terms. The amateur can very well be the coach in this situation, and a player as smart as Battier would agree. The reason they are coaches doesn't always have to do with x's and o's.

There are some very brilliant coaches as well. In fact, some of them are either former members of the media themselves or become members of the media after a coaching stint. There is really now way to judge the percentage of brilliant coaches to the ratio of brilliant writers. Members of the media who get MVP voting rights are former players who's opinions wouldn't be qualified as experts either. As I said earlier, I don't really put much stock in either MVP awards or Defensive Teams. However, one would think that a coach would have a vast knowledge of the game compared to a member of the media who never had to draw out an offensive scheme to counter opposing teams defenses. This alone in theory should qualify them more overall, but as you said... There are some incompetent coaches who truly shouldn't be trusted to give their opinions on anything basketball related. Guess what I'm saying is that the subjectiveness of both awards is what most people have a problem with. There are too many inconsistencies in selecting both these Defensive Teams and MVP's for them to be taken too seriously when evaluating greatness. If there was some sort of set criteria or qualifying measures for both members of the media and coaches to be allowed to vote on these awards, I'm sure they would hold a much higher degree of respect.


Hence the word, IF.

I have never heard Battier say anything to this affect. A source would be nice to back this up, but I would still most likely not change my mind seeing as how it is the opinion of a single person after all. Shane is a brilliant defender for sure, but as we have seen in the past and it has been argued many times to disqualify Jordan's opinions on certain matters that just because a player is brilliant on the court, doesn't make them a good judge of evaluation talent. Also, I could argue that Battier, a player known for his defensive prowess, could feel slighted for not making more Defensive Teams in his career and therefore could carry an obvious bias.


That wasn't my intention (attempting to change your mind is just fool hardy) , just to show just how deep this opinion can go, one of the more brilliant minds in basketball would agree that the Coaches do a worse job.

Don't know why you think that. I have shown the ability to change my mind several times over the years on certain matters. If you indeed showed me an overwhelming example of a brilliant basketball mind agreeing with you on this specific argument (that members of the media overall are more basketball savvy than coaches overall in regards to evaluating player prowess, talent, and greatness in specific areas), I would likely change my mind and agree with you.


Its been cited by various sources in the past, is it really that surprising to you?

Then it shouldn't be that hard for you to provide one. Yes, obviously it would be surprising to me otherwise we wouldn't be having this debate in the first place.

amos1er
06-04-2014, 04:19 AM
okay. You had to go back over 30 years to find the last time it's happened (which was in 81-82 with Moses), and my point still stands he didn't win because his teams didn't win.

If they made the exception for Kareem, then they could have for Kobe as well. The point being that there is not a set criteria for both MVP's or All NBA Defensive Teams and thats what makes both awards very subjective and therefore flawed.

Chrisclover
06-04-2014, 11:23 AM
The media are dominating the world. End of the story.

valade16
06-04-2014, 11:50 AM
If they made the exception for Kareem, then they could have for Kobe as well. The point being that there is not a set criteria for both MVP's or All NBA Defensive Teams and thats what makes both awards very subjective and therefore flawed.

It's not that simple, the voting for these awards was way different than it is now, heck, for a period there the MVP was voted on by the players.

And look no further than the DPOY to see how awards voting has changed. When it was first introduced guys Like Sidney Moncrief, Alvin Robertson and Michael cooper won it. A guard hasn't won the award since 96 with gary Payton.

Ever since Bird/magic started winning MVPs over Jordan at the end if the 80's the precedent was set, you have to be on an upper level team to win it.

Chronz
06-04-2014, 01:25 PM
I have never heard Battier say anything to this affect. A source would be nice to back this up, but I would still most likely not change my mind seeing as how it is the opinion of a single person after all.
Thats not surprising, doubt you read much on non stars outside LA. Most likely, nothing would change your mind. If it was anyone else, I would provide the quote in its entirety but the best I can say right now is that hes said it in a truehoop segment and I believe in "the art of a beautiful game" as well. Feel free to do the grunt work if you care enough about it.


Shane is a brilliant defender for sure, but as we have seen in the past and it has been argued many times to disqualify Jordan's opinions on certain matters that just because a player is brilliant on the court, doesn't make them a good judge of evaluation talent. Also, I could argue that Battier, a player known for his defensive prowess, could feel slighted for not making more Defensive Teams in his career and therefore could carry an obvious bias.
We will have to agree to disagree on the brilliance of MJ, I really dont think hes that great of a basketball mind. Hes more brilliant when it comes to his own individual play and how to pick teams apart with it. When I speak of Shane's level of intelligence, it actually has more to do with his meticulous research off the court. And the fact that Battier has been left off so many defensive teams despite being his generations dominant wing defender is kind of the point. He has a right to carry this bias, hes seen firsthand the ignorance of the coaches. When it comes to DEFENSE, I respect his opinion (and his coaches) more than anything thats been provided thus far.

Blind allegiances dont convince me. Just ask Phil what he thinks of some of Kobe's All-D selections, whos opinion would you trust more, the 1 coach who sees him on a daily basis and chided his defensive play, or the 29 other coaches/assistant who go by reputation and as little as 1 game a year.....


Don't know why you think that. I have shown the ability to change my mind several times over the years on certain matters. If you indeed showed me an overwhelming example of a brilliant basketball mind agreeing with you on this specific argument (that members of the media overall are more basketball savvy than coaches overall in regards to evaluating player prowess, talent, and greatness in specific areas), I would likely change my mind and agree with you.
Agree to disagree, I've seen you regurgitate the same flawed reasoning too many times to think of you in that light.




Then it shouldn't be that hard for you to provide one. Yes, obviously it would be surprising to me otherwise we wouldn't be having this debate in the first place.
This isn't a debate, this is a friendly conversation. That you havent heard of anything I've said here is utterly hilarious, and TO ME, indicative of how little you keep up with the game. Feel free to google it or even twitter some NBA heads who are in these talking circles. Its been reported on in the past, its up to you to ignore it but you definitely cant blame some of us for not being so surprised. I mean the coaches have done such a poor job in the past that it actually makes sense to me, in a way, I feel more at peace knowing the coaches dont take it that serious.

But out of curiosity, why is it that surprising to you?

Chronz
06-04-2014, 01:32 PM
If they made the exception for Kareem, then they could have for Kobe as well.
LOL not even close. Look at the competitors for the award before making such a ridiculous claim . Kareem stood out FAR more significantly from his peers than Kobe did at his time. Any sort of objective research will attest to this. Just once, I would like for you to brush up on some NBA history before making these sort of claims.





The point being that there is not a set criteria for both MVP's or All NBA Defensive Teams and thats what makes both awards very subjective and therefore flawed.
Being subjective doesn't make it flawed, otherwise everything you've ever spewed is flawed (considering how little you understand the more objective measures), and believe me, as much as I would love that cop out, its too lazy to use such an extreme stance.
The only way subjectivity is flawed is if it has absolutely no objective reasoning going into it. You have to prove that first. Voters can get **** wrong, thats not in question, but it doesn't mean all the awards are meaningless. We do agree it should NEVER be taken as gospel tho, its all a part of the equation.

Bruno
06-04-2014, 04:13 PM
LOL I see what you're trying. But too bad for you MVP awards matter...A LOT actually in comparing players and for individual legacy unlike all-defense teams. And voters usually get that award right 99% of the time unlike these all-defense teams.

does it? Steve Nash and Karl Malone combine to have more MVPs than Hakeem, Shaq, Kobe, Wade and Chris Paul combined.

does it?

Chronz
06-04-2014, 11:30 PM
does it? Steve Nash and Karl Malone combine to have more MVPs than Hakeem, Shaq, Kobe, Wade and Chris Paul combined.

does it?

i get the point here , its not all that important across eras.

Hawkeye15
06-05-2014, 12:19 AM
If they made the exception for Kareem, then they could have for Kobe as well. The point being that there is not a set criteria for both MVP's or All NBA Defensive Teams and thats what makes both awards very subjective and therefore flawed.

well, the voters from that era are dead...