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View Full Version : If the Heat beat the Spurs and tie them in titles, are they 4th best ever????



P&GRealist
06-01-2014, 11:59 PM
Right now, the Heat have 3 titles while the Spurs have 4. If the Heat beat the Spurs again and tie them at 4, would you rank the Heat 4th best all time ever behind the Celtics, Laker and Bulls?

Spurs would have 4 titles in 6 finals appearances (if they lose), with back to back finals appearances 1 time, but no back to back titles to show for during their existence.


Heat would have 4 titles in 5 finals appearances (if they win), with 4 straight finals appearances and a 3peat.

goingfor28
06-02-2014, 12:04 AM
Now you're just trying too hard

ManRam
06-02-2014, 12:05 AM
No. The Spurs have been around for almost twice as long as the Heat. They have such a richer history.

They also have, you know...the second best winning percentage in NBA/ABA history. They get to the playoffs far more regularly (42 times in 47 years!!!! vs. 18 in 26). They've missed the playoffs twice since the Heat have even been a team.

No. They don't compare. Stop asking questions suggesting things I know you don't even believe in ;)

You're not a good troll, either.

P&GRealist
06-02-2014, 12:07 AM
No. The Spurs have been around for almost twice as long as the Heat. They have such a richer history.

They also have, you know...the second best winning percentage in NBA/ABA history. They get to the playoffs far more regularly (42 times in 47 years!!!! vs. 18 in 26). They've missed the playoffs twice since the Heat have even been a team.

No. They don't compare. Stop asking questions suggesting things I know you don't even believe in ;)

You're not a good troll, either.

I'm simply going by the numbers.

Spurs would have 1 more finals appearance, but the Heat would have equal titles. Spurs wouldn't have repeated, while the Heat would 3 peat. And the Heat would go 2-0 in head 2 head finals battles.

P&GRealist
06-02-2014, 12:09 AM
And Manram, if the Heat have existed shorter, but have equal titles with the Spurs, who've been around since the 60s, does that not make their 4 titles even that much more impressive compared to the Spurs' 4 titles?

ManRam
06-02-2014, 12:12 AM
I'm simply going by the numbers.

Spurs would have 1 more finals appearance, but the Heat would have equal titles. Spurs wouldn't have repeated, while the Heat would 3 peat. And the Heat would go 2-0 in head 2 head finals battles.

You're not tho. The numbers don't necessarily suggest that the Heat are the 4th best franchise ever. Them winning their 4th ring means they're tied for 4th most ever. They've done it in fewer years, that is impressive. Maybe an argument is to be made....but it doesn't have to mean they're the 4th best franchise ever. Longevity, sustained success, lack of poor season, etc. etc. all play into it.


But hey, from a Kobe fan, I would expect you to believe those "numbers". Because, you know...RINGZ!!!! That's all that matters!

Hawkeye15
06-02-2014, 12:16 AM
why is the continued trolling allowed?

amos1er
06-02-2014, 12:16 AM
Slow down there Johnny threads a lot.

amos1er
06-02-2014, 12:17 AM
why is the continued trolling allowed?

Your the mod... Why you asking us...

desertlakeshow
06-02-2014, 12:18 AM
Lakers>Celtics>Bulls>Pistons>Spurs>Philadelphia>Golden state>New York>Houston>Heat.

And there may be more above the heat. Dwayne and Lebron era will end at some point. We will see there future down the road. They are tops at this time, but this a small window of the NBA history.

P&GRealist
06-02-2014, 12:23 AM
Seriously, what is wrong with you people?

This is a legitimate question.

HOLY HELL PEOPLE!

desertlakeshow
06-02-2014, 12:25 AM
Expansion teams are entertaining, I hope they last.

amos1er
06-02-2014, 12:29 AM
lol the few times I'm being serious, I get this response. And from all people, you! :laugh2:

Ha... Yup yup.

I'm just wondering how many times the word tittays can be used in this thread before getting locked. As for the topic at hand, no the Heat will not be considered better than the Spurs. The Spurs were founded naturally. The Heat are an abomination and came together through unnatural means. The Spurs have the much much better longevity and have played against far greater competition and didn't need to take less money to build a contender. Just the great drafting alone by their franchise should make this not even debatable.

P&GRealist
06-02-2014, 12:31 AM
Ha... Yup yup.

I'm just wondering how many times the word tittays can be used in this thread before getting locked. As for the topic at hand, no the Heat will not be considered better than the Spurs. The Spurs were founded naturally. The Heat are an abomination and came together through unnatural means. The Spurs have the much much better longevity and have played against far greater competition and didn't need to take less money to build a contender. Just the great drafting alone by their franchise should make this not even debatable.

Best franchises are defined by titles.

That's why it's:

1. Celtics (17)
2. Lakers (16)
3. Bulls (6)
4. Spurs (4)
5. Heat (3)


And if Heat tie Spurs with 4, and by winning both head2head match ups, should they not exceed the Spurs overall?

desertlakeshow
06-02-2014, 12:33 AM
Expansion team insecurity. SMH.

amos1er
06-02-2014, 12:36 AM
Best franchises are defined by titles.

That's why it's:

1. Celtics (17)
2. Lakers (16)
3. Bulls (6)
4. Spurs (4)
5. Heat (3)


And if Heat tie Spurs with 4, and by winning both head2head match ups, should they not exceed the Spurs overall?

As I said, it would be a tie and the tiebreaker should go to the team with the greater longevity with the core three members. The Spurs "Big Three" (if you can call them that compared to what Miami hs set the bar to) has been together since 2003 and has been in contention since winning three titles in a far more difficult conference. The Spurs big three didn't have to take less money to come together and therefore it's more meaningful what they have accomplished together. Tiebreaker goes to the Spurs.

beasted86
06-02-2014, 01:01 AM
HEAT are already a better franchise than the Spurs. :shrug:

kdspurman
06-02-2014, 09:25 AM
HEAT are already a better franchise than the Spurs. :shrug:

And what makes them a better franchise than the SPURS? I just don't see it. And not only cause I'm a fan, but just looking at the history of each team, and not just the last 3-4 years.

king4day
06-02-2014, 09:42 AM
I'd go with the Spurs. Championships don't mean much with regard to history. They have been dominant for about 15 years and have been successful for even longer.

I'll get scolded for this but I'd even put Phoenix ahead of the Heat.
4th winning franchise in NBA history. Over 40+ years. No rings, I get it, but the consistent success can't be overlooked. Miami added the best player of this generation and they win a couple of rings. That doesn't define the lore of the franchise. Just present success.

beasted86
06-02-2014, 10:15 AM
And what makes them a better franchise than the SPURS? I just don't see it. And not only cause I'm a fan, but just looking at the history of each team, and not just the last 3-4 years.

Not only the winning, and success currently winning back to back titles, something the Spurs have never been able to do... But the franchise itself and its awesome owner and management.

Micky Arison is known around the league as a great owner, Riley has created a culture of a "HEAT family". LeBron talked about it in his signing press conference, Zo talked about it, everybody who has been a member of the team. There are a number of players and staff that have essentially become "lifers" to the organization, throughout coaching and roster changes. We have the same broadcasters from the team's inception 25+ years. Same arena loud speaker announcer 25+ years. Arison is the type of owner willing to lose a couple million if it means bringing this city a competitive team. Free agents know these things, that's why this has become a free agent destination, not because "South beach".

The Spurs have a known cheapskate owner in Holt willing to lockout the NBA and simply unwilling to touch the luxury tax. If the franchise didn't get a player like Duncan willing to set that first example of taking less, other players wouldn't have followed suit and this would probably be a night and day different franchise history. Pop treats his team more like a military unit than a family. This is why the team has never been a free agent draw despite the success.

Riley has been able to rebuild this team a couple times around different players. Spurs have had two top 20 all-time players that have spent their entire career with the team. I don't think the franchise is proven to be able to build a team other than sucking into a #1 overall pick. The HEATare about to catch them in titles despite never being given one once.

In my opinion these are the reasons the HEAT are already a better franchise.

ATX
06-02-2014, 10:29 AM
Personally I would need to see a sustained level of excellence from the Heat for a few more seasons. The Heat would be right there with the Spurs for the fourth best franchise in terms of achievement. The Spurs have been a dominant franchise for longer, though the titles would be close: Spurs 4 of 6 Championships in 15 seasons, and Heat 4 of 5 Championships in about 10 seasons in this hypothetical.

ATX
06-02-2014, 10:33 AM
If Miami's big three stay in tact, I see no reason why the Heat wouldn't surpass San Antonio on the All Time best franchise list...

kdspurman
06-02-2014, 10:55 AM
Not only the winning, and success currently winning back to back titles, something the Spurs have never been able to do... But the franchise itself and its awesome owner and management.

Micky Arison is known around the league as a great owner, Riley has created a culture of a "HEAT family". LeBron talked about it in his signing press conference, Zo talked about it, everybody who has been a member of the team. There are a number of players and staff that have essentially become "lifers" to the organization, throughout coaching and roster changes. We have the same broadcasters from the team's inception 25+ years. Same arena loud speaker announcer 25+ years. Arison is the type of owner willing to lose a couple million if it means bringing this city a competitive team. Free agents know these things, that's why this has become a free agent destination, not because "South beach".

The Spurs have a known cheapskate owner in Holt willing to lockout the NBA and simply unwilling to touch the luxury tax. If the franchise didn't get a player like Duncan willing to set that first example of taking less, other players wouldn't have followed suit and this would probably be a night and day different franchise history. Pop treats his team more like a military unit than a family. This is why the team has never been a free agent draw despite the success.

Riley has been able to rebuild this team a couple times around different players. Spurs have had two top 20 all-time players that have spent their entire career with the team. I don't think the franchise is proven to be able to build a team other than sucking into a #1 overall pick. The HEATare about to catch them in titles despite never being given one once.

In my opinion these are the reasons the HEAT are already a better franchise.

The Spurs have had this "culture/family" in place for many years now. So while it's impressive the heat have done it, let's not pretend that they are the first to do so.

The Spurs do have a cheapskate owner, but guess what. He is in San Antonio, and is at a disadvantage when it comes to attracting free agents. Miami might be a small market as well, but guys do not want to play in San Antonio, they would much rather be in a Miami, or LA, or NYC, etc... So you do what you have to do to try and level the playing field.

Quote from Peter Holt:


"The way we run our team is character first, skill second and third we understand we're in a small market. So let's take pride in trying to win and not overspending. I think we've only been taxpayers two or three times because, like it or not, we need to do that in our market. But I've been pretty fortunate. I trust those guys implicitly and just try to be there to support them. And, obviously, it's paid off."


And no one has done it better than SA. They have the best scouts in the league, the best coach, and they are the ideal model for teams to try and emulate. Small market teams look at SA as a way to be successful in the league. Also, take a look at the Spurs family tree (http://www.trbimg.com/img-50b56f4a/turbine/os-se-san-antonio-spurs-family-tree-20121127/900/900x786). (there is a more recent one out there, but I'm unable to find it) They develop people. Not only players, who again they are second to none in that regard. But FO guys, coaches, etc... You go to SA, you are more likely to thrive in your next step if you have a good head on your shoulders.

And you say the Spurs have had 2 Top 20 (1 top 20 another top 10) guy that stayed their entire career like that's a bad thing. That's damn impressive. They didn't have to do the whole FA thing and pay guys a bunch of $ to join. They got very fortunate/lucky to draft Robinson/Duncan, but they did an incredible job of keeping them. Not only that, but putting different pieces around them to continue a high level of play. Duncan's first title run was in 1999. It's 2014, and he's back again for his 6th appearance, and he is the only constant (aside from Pop) from that year. Then they got a steal in Manu 57th pick, a promising pick in Parker who they developed to the player he is today, (a lot of that due to the Spurs shooting coach Chip Engelland who is among the best in the league) trading for Kawhi, picking up a guy in Diaw who many thought was a joke, etc... Look at Patty Mills (http://l3.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/OyqawL.0ZYQJmyu.3y5.qg--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTQyMTtweG9mZj01MDtweW 9mZj0wO3E9NzU7dz03NDk-/http://l.yimg.com/os/publish-images/sports/2014-03-27/e38029b0-b5cc-11e3-ac7e-354e81d34cd9_PM32714.jpg) before and after, how Pop pushed him to get in better shape. Now he is one of the better backup PG's in the game. Those are just a few examples (there are many in the last 20 years or so) where guys come to SA and get better. Sure there have been some failed experiments, but that number is much smaller in comparison to success stories



BTW, what do you mean the heat are about to catch them despite never being given one once? Are you implying the Spurs were "given" one?

FlashBolt
06-02-2014, 12:13 PM
Yeah, this is stupid. Same amount of titles but lets look beyond that.. What do you think of the Heat before James came in? Exactly.

effen5
06-02-2014, 12:28 PM
HEAT are already a better franchise than the Spurs. :shrug:

:laugh: not even close.

Lo Porto
06-02-2014, 12:32 PM
IF the Heat beat the Spurs, I think the Spurs are still ahead. Something has to be said for being competitive most of the time. Just because you have a title doesn't mean you're a more respectable franchise. Look at GS vs Utah. 25 straight years of playoffs and a couple trips to the finals are worth more in my opinion than one long ago title and tons of years of being a joke.

effen5
06-02-2014, 12:46 PM
And Miami was what 15-67 before lebron got there? Tim Duncan has never missed the playoffs as a spur in a tougher conference

beasted86
06-02-2014, 12:54 PM
Yeah, this is stupid. Same amount of titles but lets look beyond that.. What do you think of the Heat before James came in? Exactly.

I think of a high class organization Alonzo Mourning, Tim Hardaway, Juwan Howard, Elton Brand, Shaquille O'Neal, Chris Bosh, and LeBron James all signed a contract or offer sheet to play for. When was the last time an all-star signed a contract because he wanted to play for the Spurs?... never.

effen5
06-02-2014, 12:57 PM
I think of a high class organization Alonzo Mourning, Tim Hardaway, Juwan Howard, Elton Brand, Shaquille O'Neal, Chris Bosh, and LeBron James all signed a contract or offer sheet to play for. When was the last time an all-star signed a contract because he wanted to play for the Spurs?... never.

Because they don't need to they develop their players to be hall of famers

kdspurman
06-02-2014, 01:14 PM
I think of a high class organization Alonzo Mourning, Tim Hardaway, Juwan Howard, Elton Brand, Shaquille O'Neal, Chris Bosh, and LeBron James all signed a contract or offer sheet to play for. When was the last time an all-star signed a contract because he wanted to play for the Spurs?... never.

Has nothing to do with the Spurs as a basketball team... It has to do with the CITY. And maybe it's telling that despite the fact that Miami has had all these all-stars sign contracts, that the Spurs are still the more successful franchise. They do it by, like I said in my earlier response to you, having the best scouts in the game.

Goose17
06-02-2014, 01:16 PM
I think of a high class organization Alonzo Mourning, Tim Hardaway, Juwan Howard, Elton Brand, Shaquille O'Neal, Chris Bosh, and LeBron James all signed a contract or offer sheet to play for. When was the last time an all-star signed a contract because he wanted to play for the Spurs?... never.

lol, when was the last time the Spurs needed an all-star free agent to put them over the top? They get the best out of everyone on their roster. I feel teams that can retain talent for a long time reflects a high class organization more than throwing money at talent and eventually losing them to free agency. Just my opinion. Especially if you're retaining talent in a small market and in a location like San Antonio as opposed to a location like Miami.

And Hardaway was traded, he didn't sign in free agency, neither did Shaq.

koreancabbage
06-02-2014, 01:27 PM
I think of a high class organization Alonzo Mourning, Tim Hardaway, Juwan Howard, Elton Brand, Shaquille O'Neal, Chris Bosh, and LeBron James all signed a contract or offer sheet to play for. When was the last time an all-star signed a contract because he wanted to play for the Spurs?... never.

its because its Miami. lulz

But still. I don't have any beef if a team grooms their players or buys their players. At the end of the day, its about winning championships.

It would be foolish to decide which method (staying with a team or leaving to join a team to win a championship) is better because then it becomes something to argue about because people have too much time on their hands to argue about lol.

Even when the big three came together, people were doubting if they could win a chip and lots of people picked Thunder to win, or Spurs to win, and even Dallas to win. So there has been a lot of doubt if the Heat could win with the big three.

Naysayers:
1) They don't say anything when Wade is injured or playing injured BUT when he playing again, they are like. WHOA big 3 are unstoppable - look how amazing their team is.

2) They don't say anything when Bosh is playing like crap BUT when he comes through, they are like - WHOA big 3 are unstoppable - look how amazing their team is.

3) They'll try to do anything to bring out James' faults, like not being clutch (basically a few moments of bad shots that have been attached to him for all these years compared to the plethora of times he was clutch, but won't get recognized for it) and they would even go further into saying Ray Allen won them the series - one shot in a series they were trailing does not constitute winning a series.

4) When they win their championships, they'll be like - oh James is on a stacked team, of course they won. He has no legacy. and they'll say James is with Wade and Bosh - ofc they won, only realizing that the only player that has been as rock solid in all these years has been the play of James, when Bosh and Wade having horrible series these last 4 years, even in the same playoff run - they'll say James had help.

Miami is in the basis of building a winning atmosphere. Even their fans have gotten better over these years. They are not there with SA yet, but if they have more than SA, yes, we can start saying they are a great franchise.

ATX
06-02-2014, 01:27 PM
And Miami was what 15-67 before lebron got there? Tim Duncan has never missed the playoffs as a spur in a tougher conference

That season was 3 years before James, and was the sole season Miami has missed the playoffs in the Wade years, and that team was one of the worst teams in history without Wade. He played injured for awhile, but shut it down for most of the 2nd half of the season.

Stinkyoutsider
06-02-2014, 01:33 PM
Better franchise than the Spurs? Depends on what you're taking into consideration as far as ranking them...

I like to think there's more than just championships that define a franchise. Now, I do think the Heat have a great history as a club but not like the Spurs.

effen5
06-02-2014, 01:39 PM
That season was 3 years before James, and was the sole season Miami has missed the playoffs in the Wade years, and that team was one of the worst teams in history without Wade. He played injured for awhile, but shut it down for most of the 2nd half of the season.

And when Duncan, manu, or Parker goes down? Oh wait they still contend no matter what. That's what you call a successful franchise

beasted86
06-02-2014, 01:43 PM
lol, when was the last time the Spurs needed an all-star free agent to put them over the top? They get the best out of everyone on their roster. I feel teams that can retain talent for a long time reflects a high class organization more than throwing money at talent and eventually losing them to free agency. Just my opinion. Especially if you're retaining talent in a small market and in a location like San Antonio as opposed to a location like Miami.

And Hardaway was traded, he didn't sign in free agency, neither did Shaq.
You're right, but Hardaway pushed a trade to the HEAT. Shaq pushed a sign and trade.

Point still stands no premier player has ever wanted to play for this supposed "great winning franchise with an eventual hall of fame coach" regardless of money. No elite player asked to be traded to the Spurs. Why wouldn't players want to play for a contender?

The franchise is not a great destination because of its owner and strict coach. The two other cities in Texas don't win as much and draw much better players.

beasted86
06-02-2014, 01:51 PM
And when Duncan, manu, or Parker goes down? Oh wait they still contend no matter what. That's what you call a successful franchise
Actually what will happen is Pop will retire instead of taking on the challenge of rebuilding without a top 10 player.

kdspurman
06-02-2014, 02:02 PM
You're right, but Hardaway pushed a trade to the HEAT. Shaq pushed a sign and trade.

Point still stands no premier player has ever wanted to play for this supposed "great winning franchise with an eventual hall of fame coach" regardless of money. No elite player asked to be traded to the Spurs. Why wouldn't players want to play for a contender?

The franchise is not a great destination because of its owner and strict coach. The two other cities in Texas don't win as much and draw much better players.

Seems you aren't responding to some posts on here explaining it, but again. It has nothing to do with playing for the Spurs. It's Miami vs San Antonio- The CITIES. Houston & Dallas are very different than San Antonio.

And again, believe it or not, some players don't want to play for strict coaches cause they are spoiled and want to do things their way. I remember rumblings when Riley might coach the heat, Wade said nobody wanted that because of his coaching style. (I know the context he said it in, but I think there was some truth) It's a players league now, where players dictate what they want to do, on so many teams. Doesn't work with Pop. He commands respect, and you have to fit in with what he wants to do.

P&GRealist
06-02-2014, 02:02 PM
Actually what will happen is Pop will retire instead of taking on the challenge of rebuilding without a top 10 player.

Manu, Tony, Timmy all expire next summer (Timmy player option) while Kawhi has a qualifying offer that summer. Everything is lined up perfectly, Pop has said several times Kawhi is the future franchise. Holt, Buford and Pop will build the future around Tony and Kawhi. And someone else will come thru as that 3rd guy soon. Pop will stay. Bet on it.

beasted86
06-02-2014, 02:12 PM
its because its Miami. lulz

But still. I don't have any beef if a team grooms their players or buys their players. At the end of the day, its about winning championships.

It would be foolish to decide which method (staying with a team or leaving to join a team to win a championship) is better because then it becomes something to argue about because people have too much time on their hands to argue about lol.

Even when the big three came together, people were doubting if they could win a chip and lots of people picked Thunder to win, or Spurs to win, and even Dallas to win. So there has been a lot of doubt if the Heat could win with the big three.

Naysayers:
1) They don't say anything when Wade is injured or playing injured BUT when he playing again, they are like. WHOA big 3 are unstoppable - look how amazing their team is.

2) They don't say anything when Bosh is playing like crap BUT when he comes through, they are like - WHOA big 3 are unstoppable - look how amazing their team is.

3) They'll try to do anything to bring out James' faults, like not being clutch (basically a few moments of bad shots that have been attached to him for all these years compared to the plethora of times he was clutch, but won't get recognized for it) and they would even go further into saying Ray Allen won them the series - one shot in a series they were trailing does not constitute winning a series.

4) When they win their championships, they'll be like - oh James is on a stacked team, of course they won. He has no legacy. and they'll say James is with Wade and Bosh - ofc they won, only realizing that the only player that has been as rock solid in all these years has been the play of James, when Bosh and Wade having horrible series these last 4 years, even in the same playoff run - they'll say James had help.

Miami is in the basis of building a winning atmosphere. Even their fans have gotten better over these years. They are not there with SA yet, but if they have more than SA, yes, we can start saying they are a great franchise.

I agree it's not about saying one method of building the team is better than the next. It was just a point to say how they are regarded around the league and by the media.

When I see both teams on ESPN or TNT the HEAT is spoken of as a first class franchise. Micky Arison, Pat Riley, Erik Spoelstra alike. Always showing and talking about Zo on camera and the team's pedigree. I think they are just seen a notch higher than most, including the Bulls, which again have a horrible owner, can't draw free agents, and possibly the GOAT player wants almost nothing to do with the team (even before the conflicts of interest).

effen5
06-02-2014, 02:27 PM
I agree it's not about saying one method of building the team is better than the next. It was just a point to say how they are regarded around the league and by the media.

When I see both teams on ESPN or TNT the HEAT is spoken of as a first class franchise. Micky Arison, Pat Riley, Erik Spoelstra alike. Always showing and talking about Zo on camera and the team's pedigree. I think they are just seen a notch higher than most, including the Bulls, which again have a horrible owner, can't draw free agents, and possibly the GOAT player wants almost nothing to do with the team (even before the conflicts of interest).

Okay and when has the media ever say anything negative about the Spurs? The Spurs are the best run franchise in the NBA the last two decades and it's really not close.

koreancabbage
06-02-2014, 02:29 PM
Okay and when has the media ever say anything negative about the Spurs? The Spurs are the best run franchise in the NBA the last two decades and it's really not close.

They are the model franchise. But Ofc everything had to go their way to begin with. Scouting/training/right personnel etc.

I would love my Raps to be like them but it's unrealistic bc they are the only team like that.

KnicksorBust
06-02-2014, 02:31 PM
Debating franchises always seems like an exercise in futility after Lakers/Celtics. I can't imagine Duncan or LeBron is using the "We must become the 4th greatest franchise ever!" tag as motivation for this series...

kdspurman
06-02-2014, 02:35 PM
Okay and when has the media ever say anything negative about the Spurs? The Spurs are the best run franchise in the NBA the last two decades and it's really not close.

Exactly. He is talking like they only say that stuff about Miami. They say it far more in SA and have been saying it for many years now. I don't know that's always been the case with Miami, I feel like it started more when Lebron came.

And he keeps bringing up Zo. Sean Elliott is a broadcaster for the Spurs (maybe not the best one) and David Robinson is regularly at Spurs game, as is George Gervin. Whatever that means, but I don't think that means much in terms of the argument here.

HuRRiCaNeS324
06-02-2014, 02:40 PM
I think this is a good topic that should be discussed generally. Who are the best franchises?

But for the purpose of the thread, i have to agree with the majority here. Although the HEAT have already had great success in a relatively short amount of time, the Spurs have been successful for a ridiculous amount of time. SA is one of the best franchises in sports, let alone the NBA. The way the sustained such a high level of success while being in a small market is almost impossible.

However, the people the are saying teams like Philly, Phoenix, GS, and NYK are better is laughable. Yes, these teams have been in the NBA for a long *** time and have history, but it doesn't mean it's good history. Knicks can be argued to be one of the worst franchises in the NBA since they are in the BIGGEST market and yet still are terrible beyond belief.

beasted86
06-02-2014, 02:44 PM
Exactly. He is talking like they only say that stuff about Miami. They say it far more in SA and have been saying it for many years now. I don't know that's always been the case with Miami, I feel like it started more when Lebron came.

And he keeps bringing up Zo. Sean Elliott is a broadcaster for the Spurs (maybe not the best one) and David Robinson is regularly at Spurs game, as is George Gervin. Whatever that means, but I don't think that means much in terms of the argument here.
Nobody rarely mentions that cheapskate owner more so just Pop, and Buford doesn't get the praise or regard Riley does... And it's clear the Spurs don't have the long-standing staff and involvement the HEAT do is my point. I think the two franchises are neck and neck, but give the nod to Miami due to what I've been saying.

I will say I think both are above the Bulls. Titles aren't all that masters.

kdspurman
06-02-2014, 02:49 PM
Nobody rarely mentions that cheapskate owner more so just Pop, and Buford doesn't get the praise or regard Riley does... And it's clear the Spurs don't have the long-standing staff and involvement the HEAT do is my point. I think the two franchises are neck and neck, but give the nod to Miami due to what I've been saying.

I will say I think both are above the Bulls. Titles aren't all that masters.

Again, they always praise them. You'll hear it in the finals. Breen does it a lot actually. Mentions Holt/Buford, everyone from top down. Heard it a lot over the weekend actually.

The Spurs don't have the long-standing staff involvement? Maybe not on their bench, but like I said in my earlier post that you didn't reply to, look at the Spurs family tree. They are all about developing people. And they still have their guys who are long standing. They just are not in the limelight. Doesn't mean they aren't there

Chronz
06-02-2014, 02:51 PM
Do we consider their market advantages? If so, its the Spurs and its not even close. If we ignore that, then its pretty close but I still side with the Spurs.

effen5
06-02-2014, 02:57 PM
You don't need to be mentioned to have a positive view on a team.

beasted86
06-02-2014, 03:43 PM
Manu, Tony, Timmy all expire next summer (Timmy player option) while Kawhi has a qualifying offer that summer. Everything is lined up perfectly, Pop has said several times Kawhi is the future franchise. Holt, Buford and Pop will build the future around Tony and Kawhi. And someone else will come thru as that 3rd guy soon. Pop will stay. Bet on it.
Pop will stay as president, not as coach. I'd bet money no later than two years after Duncan retires he will not be coaching.

kdspurman
06-02-2014, 03:50 PM
Pop will stay as president, not as coach. I'd bet money no later than two years after Duncan retires he will not be coaching.

Pop loves coaching and teaching. I wouldn't bet a lot of $ if I were you.

beasted86
06-02-2014, 04:22 PM
Do we consider their market advantages? If so, its the Spurs and its not even close. If we ignore that, then its pretty close but I still side with the Spurs.

What market advantages? I think people are missing the idea by a long shot. Miami is an appealing market for basketball because it's a great franchise. It's not an appealing franchise because it's a great market.

For comparison, if I was a football or baseball player I would avoid the Dolphins and Marlins like they anthrax and the Black Plague combined. I know nobody here will disagree with the contrasting views for these respective sports all in the same market.

kdspurman
06-02-2014, 04:31 PM
What market advantages? I think people are missing the idea by a long shot. Miami is an appealing market for basketball because it's a great franchise. It's not an appealing franchise because it's a great market.

For comparison, if I was a football or baseball player I would avoid the Dolphins and Marlins like they anthrax and the Black Plague combined. I know nobody here will disagree with the contrasting views for these respective sports all in the same market.

Because it's a great franchise? That's why?

beasted86
06-02-2014, 04:58 PM
Because it's a great franchise? That's why?

Yes. We are comparing Miami and San Antonio, not Los Angeles and Minneapolis.

Goose17
06-02-2014, 05:13 PM
What market advantages? I think people are missing the idea by a long shot. Miami is an appealing market for basketball because it's a great franchise. It's not an appealing franchise because it's a great market.

Right now it's appealing because;

1. It's Miami. Will Smith never made a song about Cleveland or San Antonio and there's a reason for that. Miami is an incredible city and anyone in their right mind would love to be there.

2. You have the best team in the league right now, guys who want to chase rings will join.


That's it.

kdspurman
06-02-2014, 05:13 PM
Yes. We are comparing Miami and San Antonio, not Los Angeles and Minneapolis.

The Miami lifestyle has a lot more to do with that. I'm really surprised you seem to think it's the franchise only that plays a part to players decision.

P&GRealist
06-02-2014, 05:15 PM
The Miami lifestyle has a lot more to do with that. I'm really surprised you seem to think it's the franchise only that plays a part to players decision.
There's also the appeal of joining a guy who previously won a title and finals MVP. Oh, and don't forget dem south beach tittays.

kdspurman
06-02-2014, 05:20 PM
There's also the appeal of joining a guy who previously won a title and finals MVP. Oh, and don't forget dem south beach tittays.

That's why I'm saying. Beasted seems to think the reason people would choose the heat over the SPurs is because "they are a great franchise"

beasted86
06-02-2014, 06:19 PM
That's why I'm saying. Beasted seems to think the reason people would choose the heat over the SPurs is because "they are a great franchise"
I think people would choose the HEAT over the Knicks and Bulls also assuming all 3 were in the lottery or overall equal caliber.

The HEAT have been a free agent draw over bigger markets, even bigger markets in non state tax states. It's because of the team's ownership and pedigree of management. Riley is trustworthy if he says he will build a team a superstar will believe him. If Mark Cuban's Mavericks say the same thing, I'm not so sure I have nearly as much faith in that statement, even though he's been a pretty good owner and they have a great coach. Miami has the draw level of the Knicks in New York City, when they shouldn't be close.

beasted86
06-02-2014, 06:25 PM
The Miami lifestyle has a lot more to do with that. I'm really surprised you seem to think it's the franchise only that plays a part to players decision.
Miami definitely has its benefits for sure, but as I said, that doesn't stop major free agents and top tier coaches from overlooking the Lolphins and the franchise with the worst ownership in baseball being the Marlins.

WadeKobe
06-02-2014, 06:54 PM
Ha... Yup yup.

I'm just wondering how many times the word tittays can be used in this thread before getting locked. As for the topic at hand, no the Heat will not be considered better than the Spurs. The Spurs were founded naturally. The Heat are an abomination and came together through unnatural means. The Spurs have the much much better longevity and have played against far greater competition and didn't need to take less money to build a contender. Just the great drafting alone by their franchise should make this not even debatable.

Free agency is an unnatural means of player transition?

ATX
06-02-2014, 07:15 PM
And when Duncan, manu, or Parker goes down? Oh wait they still contend no matter what. That's what you call a successful franchise

Listen, I don't know what your deal is. I was one of the firsts in this thread and as a Heat fan admitted that I don't think the Heat would be better than SA as a franchise. The Heat are half as young for one thing. And to your rash comment: When Wade was out or even when he was playing this is the roster they were trotting out: Chris Quinn, Daquaun Cook, an injured Marion (who only played 42 games)/Dorrell Wright, Mark Blount, etc....Just crap. This was the year Shaquille O'Neal was traded. The team was upgraded with open cap space in the offseason and went on to a fifth seed in the East. Sure take Duncan out, and you still have Manu and Parker...Take Manu out, and you still have Duncan and Parker. Their big three has played together for 12 years or so, Miami's only 4...But there could be another 4-6 years together for the Heat big three. It'c certainly a possibly that the Heat pass the Spurs in time, but AS I SAID, I still have the Spurs above, so what exactly is your point to me or are you just trolling? The point of this thread is stated with the hypothetical that the Heat 3 peaked...SA never got close to doing that, so that's a major plus for Miami in this hypothetical argument, and even with that stated, I still agreed that SA would have a better claim due to longevity of excellence. The Heat however do have an organization that is one of the best in the league, and it's legacy is growing, whether you or our common PSD trolls (Ie. Amos1er and pals) want to except reality or not.

ATX
06-02-2014, 07:25 PM
Wow, just reading through a little of the thread, and Amos1er is just using his exact same very very tired, whiny, agenda driven, biased, and trollish claims again...This has been going on for FOUR years! Someone's jelly!! You'd have to be to devote your whole life to discrediting LeBron and the Heat because he doesn't like the way the Heat were formed.

amos1er
06-03-2014, 06:20 AM
Free agency is an unnatural means of player transition?

I was referring more to the collusion and taking less money aspects rather than a normal free agency acquisition.

PhillyFaninLA
06-03-2014, 07:53 AM
I want to add one thing I didn't see posted in here, didn't read every post.

Its hard to judge a team while they are still in the era you are judging them. I think we need to wait a handful of years to really be able to answer this question.

ThuglifeJ
06-03-2014, 07:57 AM
Now you're just trying too hard

This.

Get the insecurities out of here

ATX
06-03-2014, 09:18 AM
Here is an excerpt from a yahoo article illustrating how dominate the Spurs and Heat have been over the last ten years.


ALL THEY DO IS WIN: Over the last decade, no one has come close to matching the playoff win totals of the Spurs and Heat.

Since the start of the 2005 playoffs, including the first three rounds this year, San Antonio has a league-best 92 playoff victories, while Miami has won 89 playoff games.

No other franchise is even close: The Celtics and Lakers have both won 59 playoff games during that span.

Miami has the best playoff winning percentage in the last 10 postseasons, its mark there of .654 just edging San Antonio's mark of .626.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/5-things-know-nba-finals-074338389--nba.html

sixers247
06-03-2014, 09:26 AM
This thread is pretty funny when you have most of the users on your ignore list lol.

Hellcrooner
06-03-2014, 03:18 PM
Yes they would.
So what?

SPURSFAN1
06-03-2014, 03:25 PM
**** no.

/thread

Big Zo
06-03-2014, 03:53 PM
What the Spurs have done is more impressive than what the Bulls did in the '90's, according to their fans.

SPURSFAN1
06-03-2014, 03:55 PM
What the Spurs have done is more impressive than what the Bulls did in the '90's, according to their fans.

No one is saying this. You must just be spouting stupid chit now.

kdspurman
06-03-2014, 03:57 PM
What the Spurs have done is more impressive than what the Bulls did in the '90's, according to their fans.

Ha.. I don't think any Spur fan made any sort of comment like that, stop it. And there aren't many Spurs fans on this site. But there will be argument and debate. That's sort of what the thread is about. Some arguments are valid, some are just completely off-base.

Big Zo
06-03-2014, 03:57 PM
No one is saying this. You must just be spouting stupid chit now.

Nope. Definitely heard someone say this recently.

SPURSFAN1
06-03-2014, 03:59 PM
Nope. Definitely heard someone say this recently.

You have to link me. Otherwise I see this as a completely fabricated statement.

Big Zo
06-03-2014, 04:15 PM
You have to link me. Otherwise I see this as a completely fabricated statement.

It was in a recent thread. Can't remember which one. I've also heard it in person. A lot of them also think that they were more impressive than the Lakers run from the 2000's. I hate the Lakers as much as the next guy, but no.