PDA

View Full Version : Lebron better then Larry Legend???



Pages : [1] 2

carlessyen
06-01-2014, 06:06 PM
Did I really just sit hear and hear Mark Jackson say "Lebron was better then Larry Bird"? If anyone knows about 80s and 90s basketball you would think it would be him. I often hear alot of these NBA analysts trying to hype up todays game, which is understandable because it is making money and popular as it has ever been. And trust me the athletes are far superior when it comes to speed and athleticism. Sports science and technology has evolved to where they have the best diets, medicines, and equipment to make a modern day athlete with the right NBA body, and right speed or whatever. To make the player they all look for in the NBA and NFL draft. But there is always that Russell Wilson guy that breaks that mold and doesn't fit the prototype, he has that thing that is missing. Yes todays athlete is superior on many stages. But look at the game. Look at 76 fouls on 3 point shots so far in the playoffs, look at all the turnovers, look at all the guys just letting players go by them, and blown assignments, the flopping. Todays game is no where near as intelligent, tough, or fundamental it was during this previous time period. Those mistakes would find you at the bottem of the bench, back then. Yes people had off games every once in awhile but it has been every night in these series. I truely believe as great a athlete Lebron is , and how physical he is with guys in the league in this era. He couldnt have been then. One of his weakness has always been toughness and Mental toughness. I think in 80s and 90s basketball he would have been more like a Jamal Mashburn, then the superstar he is today. I really think the Heat team of today would have suffered the losses that alot of great teams did to Jordan and the Bulls. I truely don't even see this team beating and more then likely getting swept by teams like the Cavs team that everyone remembers losing to the shot by Jordan, with great talents in Price, Nance, Daughtery. I see Daughtery dominating down low due to Miamis weak inside, and I see Price dominating both of Miami's one guards the entire series. No way they beat Stockton and Malone's Jazz, Birds Celtics, Magic's Lakers. Isiah's Pistons would drive Lebron insane, Drexler's Blazers I dont even know if they could beat the lower end teams like Wilkin's hawks. I could see Willis with his toughness and muscle just bullying these guys. I don't think basing what this guy is doing now, to one of the greatest eras of basketball, and a living Legend is fair. There are few guys in the league like Duncan who could have played as well as they do now then.

J_M_B
06-01-2014, 06:11 PM
:yawn:

goingfor28
06-01-2014, 06:12 PM
This will end well

P&GRealist
06-01-2014, 06:17 PM
If LeBron is already better than MJ, then obviously by default he's better than Bird.

KnicksorBust
06-01-2014, 06:18 PM
Everything you said is opinion supported by little fact. Bird arguably has the better career but at their peaks give me Bron and after his 3rd straight Finals MVP he will be neck and neck for legacy.

abe_froman
06-01-2014, 06:22 PM
that is a wall of text,wow

stats favor lebron comfortably ,but its hard to gauge based on pure stats because of era changes,but would still give the edge to lebron.the other thing to consider in the winning(which is close to being tied now)is that bird had a much tougher gauntlet to go through

i'd say he is,but its a lot closer than many younger fans would believe

carlessyen
06-01-2014, 06:27 PM
YOu think this is good basketball? You have watched these playoffs and think this league is on par with 80s and 90s basketball? There is no way you can serious say that. Have you watched these guys falling down over each other, shooting uncontested layups, and fouling on threes at big moments? Ive never seen such bad fundamentals, bad defense, and low IQ basketball in my life this reminds me of YMCA JR High/high school league hoops, where the coaches were gas station attendants and Micky D's clerks.

PurpleLynch
06-01-2014, 06:32 PM
We can judge Lebron when his career will be concluded. I already dislike comparisons,but if you have to,wait for Lebron to end his career,we don't know what he can do next years.

ManRam
06-01-2014, 06:33 PM
YOu think this is good basketball? You have watched these playoffs and think this league is on par with 80s and 90s basketball? There is no way you can serious say that. Have you watched these guys falling down over each other, shooting uncontested layups, and fouling on threes at big moments? Ive never seen such bad fundamentals, bad defense, and low IQ basketball in my life this reminds me of YMCA JR High/high school league hoops, where the coaches were gas station attendants and Micky D's clerks.

Was gonna respond with my opinion backed with some evidence (that I think overwhelmingly supports LeBron) but then I read this. Not worth wasting my breath with someone who thinks this. You're a lost cause, and I'm sure even if 1 + 1 = 2 here, you couldn't swayed.

FlashBolt
06-01-2014, 06:34 PM
LeBron has done more. End of discussion. Larry was great for a short period, LeBron has been great his entire career. Don't say Lebron never won anything because Larry had Parish/McHale/Dennis on his early days.

Mr_Jones
06-01-2014, 06:39 PM
YOu think this is good basketball? You have watched these playoffs and think this league is on par with 80s and 90s basketball? There is no way you can serious say that. Have you watched these guys falling down over each other, shooting uncontested layups, and fouling on threes at big moments? Ive never seen such bad fundamentals, bad defense, and low IQ basketball in my life this reminds me of YMCA JR High/high school league hoops, where the coaches were gas station attendants and Micky D's clerks.

There will be very few people who agree with what you're saying. I do, though.

BCpatsox18
06-01-2014, 06:40 PM
LeBron has done more. End of discussion. Larry was great for a short period, LeBron has been great his entire career. Don't say Lebron never won anything because Larry had Parish/McHale/Dennis on his early days.

Larry Bird was great for 13 years, not exactly a "short period." Bird also played against much tougher competition and even though he had parish and mchale Lebron didn't "do more" (or anything at all actually) until he got Wade and Bosh. Not a knock on Lebron because you can't win a team sport on your own, but there is certainly a discussion to be had here

Mr_Jones
06-01-2014, 06:41 PM
LeBron has to go down as the GOAT, I don't see any other way around it. He has taken advantage of the situation he's been in and playing in this kind of league (as he should). I do think that its unfortunate that this is how basketball is played now and I even see young kids mimicking the players of today, but it is how it is.

FlashBolt
06-01-2014, 06:45 PM
Larry Bird was great for 13 years, not exactly a "short period." Bird also played against much tougher competition and even though he had parish and mchale Lebron didn't "do more" (or anything at all actually) until he got Wade and Bosh. Not a knock on Lebron because you can't win a team sport on your own, but there is certainly a discussion to be had here

Dude, do you even know what you're talking about? You're a fake Celtics fan. Larry was injured for two seasons and missed dramatic amount of games. In one of those seasons, he played 6 games. So unless you count that as a season, you must be delusional.

carlessyen
06-01-2014, 06:46 PM
The most knucklehead play you can have in basketball is the 4 point play, and this has happened 76 times already in this playoffs alone. Really this is good basketball? Its hard to watch for me, the most fun I have had watching basketball last night was the Spurs and that unselfish ball movement. Some really great basketball plays last night, an you saw what the rest of the league is doing with the Thunder. ME first ball, Durant and Westbrook trying to do to much making bad plays getting turnovers with the game on the line. Thunder FAR FAR FAR superior talent, and youthfull getting took to school by old men who know how to play BASKETBALL. Lebron is so mentally WEAK the bad boy pistons would have made himself check out of the game. The EAST is weak so is the PACERS but Stephenson knows whats wrong with LEBROn thats what he was doing getting in his head and most the series he did. Heat struggled with a really bad Pacers team with no point guard, and a weak center who is 7 foot but sometimes cant get 1 rebound in 20 minutes. Lebron's head was out of it most this series, and Wade had to carry. Anthony Mason or Karl Malone would have laid into this guy on a drive to the basket and he would a feeled a real force, and rattled to peices. Bird woulda messed with this kid so bad mentally he'd prob retire. Bird was the master of mental hoops, and thats Lebron's biggest weakness.You can try to sell this league like these announcer's do but its prob the weakest it has been in years.

BCpatsox18
06-01-2014, 06:50 PM
So one year he plays six games and the rest of his career is a wash? He had horrible back issues and still managed to play around an average of 70 games a year and was GREAT. Don't insult my knowledge of my team and I won't insult your naivety about the game today

nycericanguy
06-01-2014, 06:53 PM
Never saw Bird play, this forum made me look up his stats and WOW.

6'9" thin, white SF that averaged 10rpg for his career? To go along over over 6apg... on a 50/38/89 shooting line, and add to it 1.7 spg and nearly a block per game? Insane. His peak years were like 29/11/7

Different era though, in todays NBA Bird would be shooting a ton of 3's, and likely would be more efficient because of it.

FlashBolt
06-01-2014, 06:53 PM
So one year he plays six games and the rest of his career is a wash? He had horrible back issues and still managed to play around an average of 70 games a year and was GREAT. Don't insult my knowledge of my team and I won't insult your naivety about the game today

Didn't you just say he played 13 great seasons? He played only 46 games combined for two seasons in his career. You count 46 games as two seasons? Gimme a break. Do some research about your player if you're going to come out with the 13 season argument. Naivety? You're the one who said LeBron had done nothing without Wade and Bosh. He won 2 MVP's and reached the NBA finals with a roster that went from having the most wins to the 2nd most losses in NBA the season after he left. Oh yeah, btw, that team hasn't made the playoffs the past four years he has been gone while also having the #1 draft pick 3/4 of those years.

carlessyen
06-01-2014, 06:56 PM
He shot a bunch of threes then to lol, but he wouldn't change his style for today's league he would prob be on the Spurs playing their type of basketball. I could see POP wanting this guy bad, he played smart and physical, and very very mentally. He would tell guys what he was going to do, and still do it.

BCpatsox18
06-01-2014, 06:56 PM
Lebron didn't WIN anything without Wade and Bosh, sorry I had to clarify that for you, thought that was pretty obvious. Okay, for arguments sake we take out those two years- Larry Bird still was great for 11 years, exactly the same amount of time Lebron has been great in this league. looks like i'm not the only one that needs to do their research now huh! I'm done wasting my time on you, you clearly have too closed a mind for a discussion like this.

nycericanguy
06-01-2014, 06:59 PM
He shot a bunch of threes then to lol, but he wouldn't change his style for today's league he would prob be on the Spurs playing their type of basketball. I could see POP wanting this guy bad, he played smart and physical, and very very mentally. He would tell guys what he was going to do, and still do it.

he only shot 1.8 3's per game in his career, compare that to guys like Durant, Melo, Curry...etc.. who shoot 6-7 a game.

PurpleLynch
06-01-2014, 07:00 PM
Never saw Bird play, this forum made me look up his stats and WOW.

6'9" thin, white SF that averaged 10rpg for his career? To go along over over 6apg... on a 50/38/89 shooting line, and add to it 1.7 spg and nearly a block per game? Insane. His peak years were like 29/11/7

Different era though, in todays NBA Bird would be shooting a ton of 3's, and likely would be more efficient because of it.

And he averaged 24.3 ppg in his entire career. Yes,Bird was a unique beast.

carlessyen
06-01-2014, 07:01 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Rg1sFMxnbM for you guys that didnt get the privledge to see the man play, and one the rest of the league thinks. And why he would rattle Lebron out of the gym mentally.

ManRam
06-01-2014, 07:05 PM
Let me just preface this by saying that Larry is one of my 5 favorite players ever. The first jersey I ever got was a Bird jersey. The first autograph I ever got was a Larry autograph. I loved him growing up, even though he was essentially before my time. I love love love him.

(and pardon the disjointed thoughts)

But rationally speaking, he never was good as LeBron has been these last 5 or so years.

LeBron has had about 4 or 5 better playoff runs than Larry ever had. Bird's best playoff run undoubtedly was in 84. It doesn't compare to LeBron's 12, 13, 14 (so far) and 09 (even in a loss). Arguably 10 too.

Larry won with 3, 3 and 4 OTHER Hall of Famers on his team each year respectively. LeBron's won with 2 and 3 so far (Wade, Bosh, Allen). All post their prime. Bird, like LeBron, also played with 2 All Stars each of those three years (like LeBron each of these 3 years). He had 2 team mates finish in the top 10 in win shares in 81 and 84, and one in 86. LeBron hasn't had that either of the last 3 years. Bird had at least 3 team mates in the top 50 in win shares all three years, LeBron has never had more than 2.

So, let's not pretend like LeBron is playing on any more of a stacked team. Now, let's dive into conference foes...

...The Bucks: they were the C's toughest foes in each of Bird's last two rings. The C's slaughtered them each team. The Bucks were not a tremendously talented team. Moncrief was their star, and he's not a HOFer. They did have to deal with Moses and Dr. J's 76ers in 81, and that's pretty noteworthy for sure.

We can dive into stats, but I think the lead is commanding for LeBron. And I'd imagine those backing Bird aren't the statistically-inclined lot, so why bother trying?

You can use whatever silly rhetoric you want to convince yourself the evidence is misleading, like the OP, but it's probably a bit disingenuous. But hey, whatever makes you feel better.

And you can say "let's wait for their careers to be over"...but LeBron has only played 2 fewer seasons. :shrug: He's basically there. If he hasn't passed Larry yet in your mind, you have to admit it's inevitable. He's done (essentially) everything Larry has, and is still just 29.

mngopher35
06-01-2014, 07:07 PM
Well this is an upgrade from comparing him to Jordan already, but based on your posts there is no reason to argue.

Yes, Mark Jackson was correct, Lebron is better than Larry legend. It is close and there is a real argument when comparing their careers currently, but Lebron is not finished with his career either. There are definitely valid arguments for both sides but as manram said you are not one looking for rational discussion, nothing would sway you. You hate the current league, we get it.

nycericanguy
06-01-2014, 07:07 PM
^ alot of teams were stacked back then though, now there are more teams and MIA is really the only stacked team... or at least the most by far...

FlashBolt
06-01-2014, 07:08 PM
Lebron didn't WIN anything without Wade and Bosh, sorry I had to clarify that for you, thought that was pretty obvious. Okay, for arguments sake we take out those two years- Larry Bird still was great for 11 years, exactly the same amount of time Lebron has been great in this league. looks like i'm not the only one that needs to do their research now huh! I'm done wasting my time on you, you clearly have too closed a mind for a discussion like this.

You made the mistake of saying Larry had 13 great seasons and then call me out for not doing research? Laughable. 1) LeBron didn't win anything? Huh, guess two MVP's is considered nothing these days. Btw, who did Larry play against during his first ring that was so important? Historically weak and stacked team of the ages, your Boston Celtics. Larry Bird was great for 11 years, huh? LeBron's 11 years were far better than Bird's. He's gotten 4 MVP's, perhaps 3 rings and 3x Finals MVP, and never had the likes of McHale/Parish/Johnson and countless other legends on his team during his 7 year stint in Cleveland.

FlashBolt
06-01-2014, 07:10 PM
Lebron didn't WIN anything without Wade and Bosh, sorry I had to clarify that for you, thought that was pretty obvious. Okay, for arguments sake we take out those two years- Larry Bird still was great for 11 years, exactly the same amount of time Lebron has been great in this league. looks like i'm not the only one that needs to do their research now huh! I'm done wasting my time on you, you clearly have too closed a mind for a discussion like this.

Btw, using your argument that LeBron didn't win anything without Wade or Bosh, does that mean Bird is better than Jordan? Care to explain what you meant exactly by this statement?

Crackadalic
06-01-2014, 07:11 PM
The most knucklehead play you can have in basketball is the 4 point play, and this has happened 76 times already in this playoffs alone. Really this is good basketball? Its hard to watch for me, the most fun I have had watching basketball last night was the Spurs and that unselfish ball movement. Some really great basketball plays last night, an you saw what the rest of the league is doing with the Thunder. ME first ball, Durant and Westbrook trying to do to much making bad plays getting turnovers with the game on the line. Thunder FAR FAR FAR superior talent, and youthfull getting took to school by old men who know how to play BASKETBALL. Lebron is so mentally WEAK the bad boy pistons would have made himself check out of the game. The EAST is weak so is the PACERS but Stephenson knows whats wrong with LEBROn thats what he was doing getting in his head and most the series he did. Heat struggled with a really bad Pacers team with no point guard, and a weak center who is 7 foot but sometimes cant get 1 rebound in 20 minutes. Lebron's head was out of it most this series, and Wade had to carry. Anthony Mason or Karl Malone would have laid into this guy on a drive to the basket and he would a feeled a real force, and rattled to peices. Bird woulda messed with this kid so bad mentally he'd prob retire. Bird was the master of mental hoops, and thats Lebron's biggest weakness.You can try to sell this league like these announcer's do but its prob the weakest it has been in years.

When you have an over emphasis of teams shooting more threes then any era the likely hood of fouling a three point shooter is much higher because you have teams more spread out.

Some of these guys act way to suprise on fouling a three point shooter. If this was years ago sure but it's different know. I would rather foul then give up a open three point shot

I do agree the fundamentals of basketball is down but the league is bigger and stronger then any era. Look at Westbrook. His atheltic talent alone would make him a force in the 80's

And to point out just because teams don't play hard nose beat em up defense doesn't mean defense sucks today. Defensive schemes are much more complex to compensate of some of the rules that give the offense a slight age

I grew up on 90's basketball so I miss those days

And back to the bird lebron argument. Bird had two other hall of famers and some really good players during those years. Lebron up until 2011 was putting up numbers that would destroy birds numbers by the time James got his 1st MVP

carlessyen
06-01-2014, 07:11 PM
After Craig Hodges won the NBA All-Star Game Three-Point contest in Bird's absence, Hodges was asked if the victory was tainted because Bird hadn't participated. "He knows where he can find me," was Hodges retort. Told of Hodges' challenge, Bird replied, "Yeah, at the end of the Bulls' bench."

carlessyen
06-01-2014, 07:13 PM
"I started talking a little trash to him," Horace Grant recalled, when the Celtics were the defending champions. "I'm saying, 'You're not going to score. You're not getting this basket. I remember him then telling me exactly what he was going to do to me. He says he's going to fake me left and then he's going to shoot a right-hand hook over me. And then he goes and does it and scores."

carlessyen
06-01-2014, 07:15 PM
Dennis Rodman on Larry Bird: "I would be all over him, trying to deny him the ball, and all Larry was doing was yelling at his teammates, I'm open! Hurry up before they notice nobody is guarding me!" then he would stick an elbow in my jaw and stick the jumper in my face, then he would start in on my coach "Coach you better get this guy out and send in somebody who's going to D me up, because its too easy when I'm wide open like this"

When the Indiana Pacers put rookie George McCloud on Bird in the closing minutes of a game, Bird yelled over to the Pacers bench, "Hey, I know you guys are desperate, but can't you find someone who at least has prayer?"

On a West Coast trip in 1986, Bird told the entire Dallas Mavericks bench that after the time out, Ainge would inbounds the pass to DJ, who would hit Bird in the corner where Bird would step back and take a three. "So you got that?" Bird queried the bench. "I'm gonna stand right here. I'm not going to move. They'll pass me the ball, and the next sound you here will be the ball hitting the bottom of the net." And that's exactly what happened. Bird winked at the Maverick before heading back down to the other end of the court.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVSI1_eVuhs

FlashBolt
06-01-2014, 07:16 PM
After Craig Hodges won the NBA All-Star Game Three-Point contest in Bird's absence, Hodges was asked if the victory was tainted because Bird hadn't participated. "He knows where he can find me," was Hodges retort. Told of Hodges' challenge, Bird replied, "Yeah, at the end of the Bulls' bench."

Bird averaged 1.9 3PA. He was a great shooter but nowhere the three point shooter in games that you imagined. His highest 3PA was 3.3 while KD has averaged 4.4 3PA. Just correcting your statement that he "shot" a lot of threes. The game back then wasn't about shooting threes. It was about getting the ball closest to the basket at all times.

carlessyen
06-01-2014, 07:18 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wx6OeoT4vkw ya he struggled with the three a little bit....

jerellh528
06-01-2014, 07:19 PM
This thread must be a joke. James is already top 5 all time, just look at his stats. When it's all said and done if he continues this pace for 5 more seasons he will be goat. I could see him with 7 or 8 Mvps, 6-9 rings and Atleast a couple dpoys. It's not even fair to compare bird, especially defensively. Lebron can guard 1-5 at an elite level as well. His versatility is unmatched.

ManRam
06-01-2014, 07:19 PM
And to point out just because teams don't play hard nose beat em up defense doesn't mean defense sucks today. Defensive schemes are much more complex to compensate of some of the rules that give the offense a slight age


Defenses are undoubtedly more advanced and better than they ever have been before. It's continual progress. We just know so so so much more about how to defend than before. I know coaches like Phil have said this before...and I'd be stunned if most others didn't agree.


People like to ignore all the adjustments players from the 80s and 90s would have to make to play with these current players. These problems go both ways. Yes, things were different back then, but it's not all entirely in a manner that favors the older players, at all. Comparing between eras is hard, but you're kidding yourself if you think the adjustments that have to be made are a one way street.


This 4 point play thing is silly. Teams are shooting about 10 more threes a game than they did in 2000. So, more 3 PT shots = more 3 PT shooters getting fouled. And the advent of the three point shot is another example of how teams are getting smarter and smarter and play is becoming more and more fine-tuned and scientific. Or, "better".

FlashBolt
06-01-2014, 07:21 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wx6OeoT4vkw ya he struggled with the three a little bit....

A three point contest doesn't make you the best three point shooter. Stephen Curry was horrific at the three point shooting contest this year but you can't deny that he's not the best three point shooter. Playing in a game is much different than not having anyone guard you. Btw, you show plenty of highlight videos. I hate when people do that just based off the fact that those plays are some of their best players for their entire career. It is not an indication of how they play each and every game. Bird did not do those plays in a season or in a game. It's a span of 13 years. Obviously, you'll find something worth watching. Temporary amazement.

carlessyen
06-01-2014, 07:23 PM
They mostly play man, and bad man at that ya so advanced they dont play zones in the NBA maybe some times rarely like for a possession or two, certain situations.

0nekhmer
06-01-2014, 07:26 PM
Their numbers are very similar, and I don't doubt LeBron will surpass him in the near future. When LeBron career is over, he'll be the #1 SF of all time, and we'll see what else he can accomplish

FlashBolt
06-01-2014, 07:28 PM
They mostly play man, and bad man at that ya so advanced they dont play zones in the NBA maybe some times rarely like for a possession or two, certain situations.

What the hell is this even supposed to mean? Jesus Christ, so players back then just played but players today just don't play? I don't get your argument. It's why I respect the old posters who watched Jordan/Bird/Wilt play. They aren't nostalgic geezers who still think movie tickets are $2.

carlessyen
06-01-2014, 07:29 PM
Id say winning three in a row, and beating probably the best three point game shooter in GAME history Ellis makes you a pretty good 3 point shooter. especially doing it keeping on your warm up jacket lol....

carlessyen
06-01-2014, 07:31 PM
He said that defense is so more advanced today what does that mean they play man, you cant get all that advanced with man to man defense was what I meant. Im not saying they dont play today im saying they dont play smart or correctly, or physical. Flopping fines woulda never been a thing then, you risked your life driving to the basket no one was falling down, or letting you go there uncontested.

Black&Gold247
06-01-2014, 07:34 PM
Holy Lebron threads...

still1ballin
06-01-2014, 07:34 PM
I agree with mark Jackson. It's not even close at this point. To compare bird and Lebron is laughable at to this point.

Right now Lebron is close in passing Jordan if anything he has already passed as the GOAT. Lebron has done so much for so long and he still has a Lot of ball left.

ManRam
06-01-2014, 07:35 PM
He said that defense is so more advanced today what does that mean they play man, you cant get all that advanced with man to man defense was what I meant. Im not saying they dont play today im saying they dont play smart or correctly, or physical. Flopping fines woulda never been a thing then, you risked your life driving to the basket no one was falling down, or letting you go there uncontested.

Yeah! Totally! Over time, basketball schemes and strategies get worse and less advanced/complex/fine-tuned! These coaches definitely aren't dipping into a continually growing pool of knowledge and information, learning from decades worth of history and continued growth. You're right, people are just dumber now! As a species, basketball coaches/players/executives have reverse evolved!

Since I'm not sure if you're of the type that can pick up on it, the prior paragraph was sarcasm.

FlashBolt
06-01-2014, 07:35 PM
Id say winning three in a row, and beating probably the best three point game shooter in GAME history Ellis makes you a pretty good 3 point shooter. especially doing it keeping on your warm up jacket lol....

I never said he wasn't a good three point shooter. Larry wasn't exactly a legendary three point shooter in-GAMES. It's why his 3P% is .321 for 1.3 3PA. Larry is a great shooter; just never in-game.

carlessyen
06-01-2014, 07:36 PM
I watch sports today and know a movie ticket price, im not nostalgic I just played the game, then and now and realize how you play it, how you defend, and you never foul a three point shooter its very bad basketball. i dont care how many they are shooting now compared to when you don't do it. Thats why you see these announcers and analysts shaking their heads everytime its bad basketball there is no excuse you can make for it.

carlessyen
06-01-2014, 07:38 PM
And with these guys arguing, and saying GOAT you must have never witnessed basketball at its finest, in its finest era. So ill share with you a little underated guy that you prob didnt get the privledge of seeing. I hope you enjoy as much As i did watching him as a kid. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sua9u318wGo

FlashBolt
06-01-2014, 07:41 PM
He said that defense is so more advanced today what does that mean they play man, you cant get all that advanced with man to man defense was what I meant. Im not saying they dont play today im saying they dont play smart or correctly, or physical. Flopping fines woulda never been a thing then, you risked your life driving to the basket no one was falling down, or letting you go there uncontested.

Wtf? How exactly is defense/offense worse? That doesn't even make sense. Is your iPhone 5s worse than your iPhone 3G? While two different aspects of life, it's unquestionable that NBA is progressing and is more diverse. Look at how many NBA players were from international countries back then and compare them now. The sport of NBA is growing and each country has a different style of ball. They incorporate these skills into the NBA; skills that the era before never developed. There is still plenty to learn from in the NBA. Do you think Jordan's free throw dunk is special? How many players can do that these days? Perhaps at least 30? We seen Ibaka do it and he's not even regarded as a top athlete! Seriously, don't come with nonsense that NBA is not as developed as back then. So again, you're right. The four point play is a joke because it allows for a completely new offensive option. Makes sense.. Or.. It's because NBA is more advanced and there are many more ways - INCLUDING the strategies of those before them, being used today.

FlashBolt
06-01-2014, 07:44 PM
And with these guys arguing, and saying GOAT you must have never witnessed basketball at its finest, in its finest era. So ill share with you a little underated guy that you prob didnt get the privledge of seeing. I hope you enjoy as much As i did watching him as a kid. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sua9u318wGo

So Price is a poor-man version of Steve Nash. gotcha.

carlessyen
06-01-2014, 07:56 PM
Ya Nash was pretty good player multiple time MVP I could see that that comparison, I wouldnt say poor mans version though. Just trying to show some people some players they may have missed because Jordan has a way of making alot of guys go un noticed from that era. Kept alot of talented guys out of the limelight they deserved. Does it really matter though whos better, i was just trying to do what I did make a conversation, and get these guys a little of the attention they deserve. Maybe Lebron will have more success, and better stats but does it really count if you couldn't do it the way all of these guys did it before him? With the team that gave them their chance, I really don't see Bord, Magic, Isiah none of these guys talking together in the offseason about how to abandon their teams to make sure they can put a winning team together, they made their teams better. If he ever goes home and brings a title to his home town, a city that is in dire need of something to cheer about, a city thats really had alot of saddening years of professional sports. If he could go back there and bring that city that hasnt seen a title since 64 a champion again I would without question put him over Jordan, but he would have to do that first. It'll never happen im sure him and Melo are making plans or Chris Paul right now on what other super team to build, he will never do it anywyas. But if it happened I would say this guy is the GOAT without thinking twice.

FlashBolt
06-01-2014, 08:09 PM
Ya Nash was pretty good player multiple time MVP I could see that that comparison, I wouldnt say poor mans version though. Just trying to show some people some players they may have missed because Jordan has a way of making alot of guys go un noticed from that era. Kept alot of talented guys out of the limelight they deserved. Does it really matter though whos better, i was just trying to do what I did make a conversation, and get these guys a little of the attention they deserve. Maybe Lebron will have more success, and better stats but does it really count if you couldn't do it the way all of these guys did it before him? With the team that gave them their chance, I really don't see Bord, Magic, Isiah none of these guys talking together in the offseason about how to abandon their teams to make sure they can put a winning team together, they made their teams better. If he ever goes home and brings a title to his home town, a city that is in dire need of something to cheer about, a city thats really had alot of saddening years of professional sports. If he could go back there and bring that city that hasnt seen a title since 64 a champion again I would without question put him over Jordan, but he would have to do that first. It'll never happen im sure him and Melo are making plans or Chris Paul right now on what other super team to build, he will never do it anywyas. But if it happened I would say this guy is the GOAT without thinking twice.

Okay, now why in the hell would:

Isiah Thomas: Why would he leave Dumars, Lambier, Dantley, Rodman, Aguirre and a crap ton of supporting players?

Bird: McHale, Parish, Johnson, Archibald in a fairly weak era of competition?

Magic: Kareem, Worthy, Scott, Nixon, Wilkes, and a HOF arguable top coach ever, Pat Riley?

Why would ANYONE under such CIRCUMSTANCES leave their team?

Lemme see who?

LeBron: Mo Williams, Anderson Varejao, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Delonte West, nearing retirement Shaq, Antawn Jamison.

Now, how many of these players were HOF type players during their stint with LeBron?

ManRam
06-01-2014, 08:32 PM
Okay, now why in the hell would:

Isiah Thomas: Why would he leave Dumars, Lambier, Dantley, Rodman, Aguirre and a crap ton of supporting players?

Bird: McHale, Parish, Johnson, Archibald in a fairly weak era of competition?

Magic: Kareem, Worthy, Scott, Nixon, Wilkes, and a HOF arguable top coach ever, Pat Riley?

Why would ANYONE under such CIRCUMSTANCES leave their team?

Lemme see who?

LeBron: Mo Williams, Anderson Varejao, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Delonte West, nearing retirement Shaq, Antawn Jamison.

Now, how many of these players were HOF type players during their stint with LeBron?

LeBron left to more or less even the playing field with the all time greats. He left to play with 2 HOF players, because his team couldn't bring them there. And hell, it's not like the last 3 years he's been getting prime Bosh or Wade either.

Bird won his rings with no fewer than 3 other HOFers on his team.
Magic won his rings with 2-4 HOFers on his team each year.
LeBron won his with 2 and 3 (Wade, Bosh and now Allen). The same will be true if he wins it again this year.

He was at a huge disadvantage in Cleveland. You simply can't overlook that. Demanding he stay there and play with less than essentially all of the other top-10 players of all time had during all their championships is just dumb.

carlessyen
06-01-2014, 08:32 PM
Z defintely hall of fame center, Varejao prob one the hardest playing guys in league history. Mo Williams was a 20 a night guy, there is no reason the GOAT wouldnt be able to win with this cast. Jordan would have. Williams lot better then Kerr or Paxson. Z far better then Cartwright, you could say AV is poor mans Rodman which jordan won with. So whats the excuse? You can say Pippen, but these guys points and offense would just about make up for Pippens points, and everyone else on that bulls team lack of. Pretty much same supporting cast if you break it down and Jordan won despite that. In a far stronger league.

ManRam
06-01-2014, 08:40 PM
Z defintely hall of fame center, Varejao prob one the hardest playing guys in league history. Mo Williams was a 20 a night guy, there is no reason the GOAT wouldnt be able to win with this cast. Jordan would have. Williams lot better then Kerr or Paxson. Z far better then Cartwright, you could say AV is poor mans Rodman which jordan won with. So whats the excuse? You can say Pippen, but these guys points and offense would just about make up for Pippens points, and everyone else on that bulls team lack of. Pretty much same supporting cast if you break it down and Jordan won despite that. In a far stronger league.

Jordan never did, though. Jordan had multiple team mates in the top 25 in win shares his first 4 rings. LeBron never had that in Cleveland. You're just flat out lying to yourself if you think that supporting cast was as good as Jordan's were. The closest argument you have is 1998, but Jordan even had 2 HOFers on that team too.

Z is also far from a lock for the Hall. And he was an all-star ONCE when LeBron was there, and it was LeBron's second year. He made just 2 AS games in his career...go find me two time all stars in the Hall and get back to me, please. basketball-reference.com has his odds of making the Hall at 0.002. :laugh2: Let's not throw him in there like he's Kareem, McHale, Parish, Worthy, Wilkes, etc....

Only twice in LeBron's Cavs career did he have an all-star team mate. TWICE! His whole damn time there. Bird and Magic had two AS team mates on 6 of their 8 combined rings! LeBron had two HIS WHOLE TIME THERE.

Just stop, dude. If you're making any logical points this isn't one of them. You simply can not pretend like he had even close to the same amount of help Jordan did in Cleveland. Maybe for a year. Maybe. Even that's a huge stretch.

carlessyen
06-01-2014, 08:40 PM
2009-10 Cavaliers

Williams and Jamison 15 a game
Shaq 12 a game
and almost 6 other guys in double scoring avg sorry Jordan would have won with this team. Jordan would have loved this team. what killed this team was nothing but Lebron and a mental breakdown against the Celtics should have had this title in the bag. I remember clear as day when he faked a injury after trying to have a Jordan moment and shooting a free throw one handed, putting himself and his legacy above the team and then playing it off like he was hurt to save face, then having mental collapse last two games. you watched it if you watch ball and cant call it anything but a collapse by him in an important moment.

Sactown
06-01-2014, 08:41 PM
Z defintely hall of fame center, Varejao prob one the hardest playing guys in league history. Mo Williams was a 20 a night guy, there is no reason the GOAT wouldnt be able to win with this cast. Jordan would have. Williams lot better then Kerr or Paxson. Z far better then Cartwright, you could say AV is poor mans Rodman which jordan won with. So whats the excuse? You can say Pippen, but these guys points and offense would just about make up for Pippens points, and everyone else on that bulls team lack of. Pretty much same supporting cast if you break it down and Jordan won despite that. In a far stronger league.

You're a knuckle head... Big Z wasn't a hall of farmer when LBJ was on the team ... Chicago won 56 games without Jordan... Cleveland couldn't win 25 without Lebron ... People also seem to forget that defense is much more difficult now... There are stats out now that tell you where players are most effective and where there greatest tendencies are... Defensive schemes are much better as well now too.. So much harder for one man to break down a defense compared to 10 years ago... Much more team oriented now

That's why team play >>>> star power now... You need to move the ball to succeed this Kobe MJ hero ball doesn't work anymore and that's why the spurs beat OKC

ManRam
06-01-2014, 08:42 PM
This guy genuinely has taken things to a whole other level of stupid. I gotta leave before I lost too many more brain cells.

There are arguments to be made for Larry...this guy is not making them. You're doing your "Bird is Better" camp a disservice.

FlashBolt
06-01-2014, 08:45 PM
Z defintely hall of fame center, Varejao prob one the hardest playing guys in league history. Mo Williams was a 20 a night guy, there is no reason the GOAT wouldnt be able to win with this cast. Jordan would have. Williams lot better then Kerr or Paxson. Z far better then Cartwright, you could say AV is poor mans Rodman which jordan won with. So whats the excuse? You can say Pippen, but these guys points and offense would just about make up for Pippens points, and everyone else on that bulls team lack of. Pretty much same supporting cast if you break it down and Jordan won despite that. In a far stronger league.

Zydrunas:http://speedcap.net/sharing/files/4c/ac/4caccad5d0435ec461bb3478766b80c7.png
http://speedcap.net/sharing/files/bb/af/bbafb10ba57758af1f3fe33c881fc219.png

Varejao: http://speedcap.net/sharing/files/a1/c2/a1c2b9768b03f9da5f5d77d097406f2c.png
http://speedcap.net/sharing/files/27/be/27be1d1acd96db8c9841814727840eb4.png

Really. So Zydrunas is capable of being a HOF with those numbers? Varejao one of the hardest playing guys yet you compare him to the likes of Rodman? Are you serious?

Let's look at Mo Williams: http://speedcap.net/sharing/files/5a/91/5a9156180b9a3a293de0744344cf906a.png
http://speedcap.net/sharing/files/fa/32/fa325572458d0e3f7cb77d52bcc9ec4a.png

So this guy was a 20 a night player but he never averaged 20 a game? Interesting. Let's also look at Mo's underachieving Playoff numbers. Wow, and he was LeBron's best teammate!

Wait, even better, you forgot to mention Horace Grant and countless other factors such as THEIR COACH, Mike Brown vs Phil Jackson.

Mike Brown: Fired two times the past three stints.
Phil Jackson: Greatest coach of all time.

Hmmm, but wait, you also mentioned Pippen. You know, just good ol'e Pippen, the guy who is regarded as the greatest wing defender (best defender IMO), the guy who was 3rd in MVP voting the year MJ first retired, the All Stars MVP, ALL NBA First team 3x, and led his team to 55 wins the year MJ first retired. Yes, but it's just Pippen, they can just make up for it with Delonte's 9 points and Jamison's 11 points.

You have no argument. You are by far the worst poster here with no solid proof. MJ would win with this but he couldn't win without Pippen; 1-9 in the playoffs? Yeah, good luck with that argument. Maybe one day you can convince yourself he can do it.

carlessyen
06-01-2014, 08:47 PM
Keith Booth
Randy Brown
Jud Buechler
Scott Burrell
Jason Caffey
Ron Harper
Michael Jordan
Steve Kerr
Joe Kleine
Toni Kukoc
Rusty LaRue
Luc Longley
Scottie Pippen
Dennis Rodman
Dickey Simpkins
David Vaughn
Bill Wennington

crazy if you dont think thats cavs team had more firepower then this team...

Sactown
06-01-2014, 08:49 PM
Keith Booth
Randy Brown
Jud Buechler
Scott Burrell
Jason Caffey
Ron Harper
Michael Jordan
Steve Kerr
Joe Kleine
Toni Kukoc
Rusty LaRue
Luc Longley
Scottie Pippen
Dennis Rodman
Dickey Simpkins
David Vaughn
Bill Wennington

crazy if you dont think thats cavs team had more firepower then this team...
Moron... That team went deep in the playoffs without MJ ... Cleveland couldn't win 25 games without Lebron... Clearly one team was much better than the other..

carlessyen
06-01-2014, 08:50 PM
Awww I love stat guys lol.... thats so cute you know they show games at arenas and on tv you dont have to just look at sportscenter and boxscores right? Jordan woulda won that series im sorry you can be in denial all you want. But that Cavs roster

carlessyen
06-01-2014, 08:53 PM
That team never went deep without Jordan what are you smoking....Hell you can says Cavs that year had better record when Lebron was out they won all 6 games lol.

valade16
06-01-2014, 08:56 PM
I never said he wasn't a good three point shooter. Larry wasn't exactly a legendary three point shooter in-GAMES. It's why his 3P% is .321 for 1.3 3PA. Larry is a great shooter; just never in-game.

Those statistics are incorrect. Bird's career averages are 1.9 3PA and 37.6%...

And his first few years when he played a lot more PF he didn't take many 3's, when he moved to SF and opened up he was the best 3pt shooter in the league hands down.

He averaged above 40% from 3 4 straight seasons in his prime.

Where did you get your numbers?

ManRam
06-01-2014, 08:58 PM
Keith Booth
Randy Brown
Jud Buechler
Scott Burrell
Jason Caffey
Ron Harper
Michael Jordan
Steve Kerr
Joe Kleine
Toni Kukoc
Rusty LaRue
Luc Longley
Scottie Pippen
Dennis Rodman
Dickey Simpkins
David Vaughn
Bill Wennington

crazy if you dont think thats cavs team had more firepower then this team...

First off, this is 98, Jordan's weakest cast. It's worth noting this is the worst roster he won with.

Two hall of famers.
A former defensive player of the year.
Two of the game's best shooters (Kerr and Kukoc).
A former 20 point scorer in Harper (I don't think that's too relevant, but with your logic it is).

That season Pippen was 3rd team all NBA. LeBron never had that on his team.
That season, Pippen was 1st team all defense. Lebron never had that on his team.
That season, he had the league's best rebounder, LeBron never had that on his team.
Kerr shot 44% from three.

It goes on and on.

But yeah. Zydrunas! The corpse of Shaq! Mo Williams, the mighty 2nd option!

Without Jordan, the Bulls won a playoff series! Without LeBron, the Cavs became the worst team in basketball! I do think that is somewhat telling.

I ask you this, are you trolling us? If so, touche! :clap:

ManRam
06-01-2014, 08:58 PM
Those statistics are incorrect. Bird's career averages are 1.9 3PA and 37.6%...

And his first few years when he played a lot more PF he didn't take many 3's, when he moved to SF and opened up he was the best 3pt shooter in the league hands down.

He averaged above 40% from 3 4 straight seasons in his prime.

Where did you get your numbers?

He was referencing playoff numbers, I think. I was confused too. But he stated that earlier.

carlessyen
06-01-2014, 08:59 PM
If you think Lebron could have won against Bird im sorry but your delusional and lack basketball knowledge. Lebron is one of the weakest players mentally in the history of the game, and Bird was a mental assasssin, he would have made Lebron check himself out of the game. Bird would be so far in his head he'd after to buy him dinner after the game cause, it would be like he had banged him. Please start watching basketball better, and get a better grasp on the history as well as the present of the game, and stop trying to talk stats like its what the game is all about. Rodman never put up a stat as far as scoring in his life hardly, and Id take him on my team in the finals 10 out of 10 times over Lebron.. Cause he doesnt rattle, and plays team first.

FlashBolt
06-01-2014, 08:59 PM
Keith Booth
Randy Brown
Jud Buechler
Scott Burrell
Jason Caffey
Ron Harper
Michael Jordan
Steve Kerr
Joe Kleine
Toni Kukoc
Rusty LaRue
Luc Longley
Scottie Pippen
Dennis Rodman
Dickey Simpkins
David Vaughn
Bill Wennington

crazy if you dont think thats cavs team had more firepower then this team...

Not even Amos1er would agree with you on this one and that implies NO ONE agrees with you. Just stop. You are a terrible poster and I normally don't ignore anyone but your posts are downright vacuous.

Also, how do you not mention Horace Grant? Little do you know..

FlashBolt
06-01-2014, 09:00 PM
Those statistics are incorrect. Bird's career averages are 1.9 3PA and 37.6%...

And his first few years when he played a lot more PF he didn't take many 3's, when he moved to SF and opened up he was the best 3pt shooter in the league hands down.

He averaged above 40% from 3 4 straight seasons in his prime.

Where did you get your numbers?

Sorry, meant to put down playoffs. But, I don't consider him the best 3 point shooter because look at the volume of shots he took. 3PA is LOW compared to shooters of today. It's why I can't put him in the same level as both Curry's, etc., Sure, he won three point shooting contests but how does this help him in a game? 3 point shooting is just a contest and event, the real game is what it's all about and quite frankly, he just never took a lot of 3's.

FlashBolt
06-01-2014, 09:01 PM
That team never went deep without Jordan what are you smoking....Hell you can says Cavs that year had better record when Lebron was out they won all 6 games lol.

You fool, Pippen took a Jordan-less team to 55 wins and seconds away from the ECF.. What are YOU smoking?

FlashBolt
06-01-2014, 09:02 PM
If you think Lebron could have won against Bird im sorry but your delusional and lack basketball knowledge. Lebron is one of the weakest players mentally in the history of the game, and Bird was a mental assasssin, he would have made Lebron check himself out of the game. Bird would be so far in his head he'd after to buy him dinner after the game cause, it would be like he had banged him. Please start watching basketball better, and get a better grasp on the history as well as the present of the game, and stop trying to talk stats like its what the game is all about. Rodman never put up a stat as far as scoring in his life hardly, and Id take him on my team in the finals 10 out of 10 times over Jordan.. Cause he doesnt rattle, and plays team first.

You'd take Rodman over Jordan? Okay, I'm done.

carlessyen
06-01-2014, 09:03 PM
Over Lebron not Jordan who said Jordan

ManRam
06-01-2014, 09:04 PM
I'm for real gone now. This guy makes Illusionist look like Einstein. Not worth the time, from anyone...it's only fun for so long, then it gets depressing. It's clear he'll do whatever it takes in his mind to keep himself believing what he WANTS to believe.

carlessyen
06-01-2014, 09:06 PM
And Grant wasnt on that 97-98 roster mr i know hoops.

FlashBolt
06-01-2014, 09:06 PM
Over Lebron not Jordan who said Jordan


If you think Lebron could have won against Bird im sorry but your delusional and lack basketball knowledge. Lebron is one of the weakest players mentally in the history of the game, and Bird was a mental assasssin, he would have made Lebron check himself out of the game. Bird would be so far in his head he'd after to buy him dinner after the game cause, it would be like he had banged him. Please start watching basketball better, and get a better grasp on the history as well as the present of the game, and stop trying to talk stats like its what the game is all about. Rodman never put up a stat as far as scoring in his life hardly, and Id take him on my team in the finals 10 out of 10 times over Jordan.. Cause he doesnt rattle, and plays team first.

Looks like you have a terrible reading comprehension as well. You'll take Rodman over James.. Right.

FlashBolt
06-01-2014, 09:08 PM
And Grant wasnt on that 97-98 roster mr i know hoops.

You're right; he was only there for their first three-peat going 15/10 on 55% shooting...

mngopher35
06-01-2014, 09:11 PM
Z defintely hall of fame center, Varejao prob one the hardest playing guys in league history. Mo Williams was a 20 a night guy, there is no reason the GOAT wouldnt be able to win with this cast. Jordan would have. Williams lot better then Kerr or Paxson. Z far better then Cartwright, you could say AV is poor mans Rodman which jordan won with. So whats the excuse? You can say Pippen, but these guys points and offense would just about make up for Pippens points, and everyone else on that bulls team lack of. Pretty much same supporting cast if you break it down and Jordan won despite that. In a far stronger league.

Wrong, and he was a pretty poor playoff performer.


2009-10 Cavaliers

Williams and Jamison 15 a game
Shaq 12 a game
and almost 6 other guys in double scoring avg sorry Jordan would have won with this team. Jordan would have loved this team. what killed this team was nothing but Lebron and a mental breakdown against the Celtics should have had this title in the bag. I remember clear as day when he faked a injury after trying to have a Jordan moment and shooting a free throw one handed, putting himself and his legacy above the team and then playing it off like he was hurt to save face, then having mental collapse last two games. you watched it if you watch ball and cant call it anything but a collapse by him in an important moment.

Wait for it...


Awww I love stat guys lol.... thats so cute you know they show games at arenas and on tv you dont have to just look at sportscenter and boxscores right? Jordan woulda won that series im sorry you can be in denial all you want. But that Cavs roster

It appears you tried making up statistics and listing them and he was just clearing things up for you. I'm guessing the one who is making things up might be the guy needing to actually watch the games...


Keith Booth
Randy Brown
Jud Buechler
Scott Burrell
Jason Caffey
Ron Harper
Michael Jordan
Steve Kerr
Joe Kleine
Toni Kukoc
Rusty LaRue
Luc Longley
Scottie Pippen
Dennis Rodman
Dickey Simpkins
David Vaughn
Bill Wennington

crazy if you dont think thats cavs team had more firepower then this team...

This one is my favorite. Cavs without Lebron in 2011 19 wins while 1995 bulls without Jordan had 55 wins. This is one of the dumbest posts on PSD, that is hard to do...

Crackadalic
06-01-2014, 09:12 PM
Z defintely hall of fame center, Varejao prob one the hardest playing guys in league history. Mo Williams was a 20 a night guy, there is no reason the GOAT wouldnt be able to win with this cast. Jordan would have. Williams lot better then Kerr or Paxson. Z far better then Cartwright, you could say AV is poor mans Rodman which jordan won with. So whats the excuse? You can say Pippen, but these guys points and offense would just about make up for Pippens points, and everyone else on that bulls team lack of. Pretty much same supporting cast if you break it down and Jordan won despite that. In a far stronger league.

Dude wtf are you smoking that same team lost like 26 straight when lebron left gtfoh with that bro. Even without shaq he was a shell of his former self

None of your arguments are in the very least factual in anyway shape or form. Take your love glasses off and just admit lebron is better then bird. There is no argument that bird is better then lebron other then bird had the luxury to play with 3-4 hall of famers throughout his career. I lebron had that squad in his early days he would have gotten 6 rings already smh

FlashBolt
06-01-2014, 09:12 PM
Wrong, and he was a pretty poor playoff performer.



Wait for it...



It appears you tried making up statistics and listing them and he was just clearing things up for you. I'm guessing the one who is making things up might be the guy needing to actually watch the games...



This one is my favorite. Cavs without Lebron in 2011 19 wins while 1995 bulls without Jordan had 55 wins. This is one of the dumbest posts on PSD, that is hard to do...

What do you think, Amos1er quality or he's surpassed him?

carlessyen
06-01-2014, 09:12 PM
and that year without Jordan being the 94-95 season the bulls were barely .500 with Toni having a career year. And beat a really really young Hornets team for their only win of the playoffs. Larry and Mourning were in their first two seasons of the league.

mngopher35
06-01-2014, 09:13 PM
Anyways I think an actual Lebron/Bird debate would be pretty interesting overall. Hopefully we get to have one this summer with your PSD top 50 manram.

valade16
06-01-2014, 09:16 PM
Sorry, meant to put down playoffs. But, I don't consider him the best 3 point shooter because look at the volume of shots he took. 3PA is LOW compared to shooters of today. It's why I can't put him in the same level as both Curry's, etc., Sure, he won three point shooting contests but how does this help him in a game? 3 point shooting is just a contest and event, the real game is what it's all about and quite frankly, he just never took a lot of 3's.

That's because you severely lack context. The NBA adopted the 3pt line in 1979-80. The NCAA did not officially adopt the 3pt line until 1986. So he never grew up practicing the 3pt shot like players of today and was still able to quickly adapt and shoot it at an all-time great level.

It'd be like if tomorrow the NBA said hey 27' shots are worth 4 pts, do you think curry could go out and make 40% of those shots? Because that's what Larry Bird did. Also, the massive spike in attempts today is because of the evolution of the league, not because Larry didn't take very many. He led the league in 3pt attempts and males during his career.

If Larry had the advantages of Curry in terms of growing up with the 3 and the encouragement to shoot it in games, there's no telling how high his % would have been.

mngopher35
06-01-2014, 09:17 PM
What do you think, Amos1er quality or he's surpassed him?

Amos is biased against Lebron and spends way too much time trying to bash him, but he is not at this level of bball knowledge. Sometimes he actually brings a couple of decent arguments/points to the table which I doubt is possible here. He exaggerates plenty but would never make a claim like that (comparing Bulls to Cleveland).

carlessyen
06-01-2014, 09:18 PM
2011 cavs your joking right? Alot different then a guy getting hurt compared to him leaving. This team was rattled from the announcement, Bulls knew Jordan would be back, thats a totally insane comparison. As well as that team also lost Zydrunas a leader,Shaq was gone. Williams only played in 30 games, as well as Jamison. Sessions and Jickson were the only guys to even play that entire season. Av only played 30 as well that was a completely different team, not one where one player went down. This team and the Jordan's injury season so far of a difference.

FlashBolt
06-01-2014, 09:20 PM
and that year without Jordan being the 94-95 season the bulls were barely .500 with Toni having a career year. And beat a really really young Hornets team for their only win of the playoffs. Larry and Mourning were in their first two seasons of the league.

And that had nothing to do with Horace Grant signing with Orlando instead of Bulls. Mind you, Grant was their leading rebounder, second leading scorer, and second best defender. Completely had nothing to do with that... +Alonzo was in his third and I believe Johnson was in his fourth or fifth season.. So get your opinions checked next time.

carlessyen
06-01-2014, 09:25 PM
nope your wrong again of course Mourning second and johnson 3rd two young guys getting their first tastes of playoff basketball.

FlashBolt
06-01-2014, 09:26 PM
That's because you severely lack context. The NBA adopted the 3pt line in 1979-80. The NCAA did not officially adopt the 3pt line until 1986. So he never grew up practicing the 3pt shot like players of today and was still able to quickly adapt and shoot it at an all-time great level.

It'd be like if tomorrow the NBA said hey 27' shots are worth 4 pts, do you think curry could go out and make 40% of those shots? Because that's what Larry Bird did. Also, the massive spike in attempts today is because of the evolution of the league, not because Larry didn't take very many. He led the league in 3pt attempts and males during his career.

If Larry had the advantages of Curry in terms of growing up with the 3 and the encouragement to shoot it in games, there's no telling how high his % would have been.


I can agree with this but his volume to % wasn't all that great. He averaged 40% in one season shooting only 1.6 and another season, 2.4 3PA. I'm not going to say he could've shot more under the same % because no one knows. He could have or he couldn't have. Well, I could also say LeBron would've been much better because he would've developed a tougher mentality of playing the game. And don't give me the hypothetical situation of if and what if the league had done this blah blah blah. I'm judging it from what is given and that's what's given. I never said he wasn't a great shooter. However, his 3PA to % in both the regular and playoff isn't comparable to those of Nash, Miller, Allen, Curry, and countless others. One thing to shoot when no one is guarding you in a contest and it's another when you're against top competitors.

FlashBolt
06-01-2014, 09:27 PM
nope your wrong again of course Mourning second and johnson 3rd two young guys getting their first tastes of playoff basketball.

So why did you state that Mourning and Johnson were in the first two seasons of the league... Okay, I'm officially done. Come back when you develop literature skills.

valade16
06-01-2014, 09:30 PM
I can agree with this but his volume to % wasn't all that great. He averaged 40% in one season shooting only 1.6 and another season, 2.4 3PA. I'm not going to say he could've shot more under the same % because no one knows. He could have or he couldn't have. Well, I could also say LeBron would've been much better because he would've developed a tougher mentality of playing the game. And don't give me the hypothetical situation of if and what if the league had done this blah blah blah. I'm judging it from what is given and that's what's given. I never said he wasn't a great shooter. However, his 3PA to % in both the regular and playoff isn't comparable to those of Nash, Miller, Allen, Curry, and countless others. One thing to shoot when no one is guarding you in a contest and it's another when you're against top competitors.

And it's one thing to shoot and practice 3's your entire life and have game plans and plays drawn up to get you open 3's and another to literally shoot your first 3 pointer of your entire life in your rookie season in the NBA.

mngopher35
06-01-2014, 09:36 PM
2011 cavs your joking right? Alot different then a guy getting hurt compared to him leaving. This team was rattled from the announcement, Bulls knew Jordan would be back, thats a totally insane comparison. As well as that team also lost Zydrunas a leader,Shaq was gone. Williams only played in 30 games, as well as Jamison. Sessions and Jickson were the only guys to even play that entire season. Av only played 30 as well that was a completely different team, not one where one player went down. This team and the Jordan's injury season so far of a difference.

They were 8-24 even with Mo playing and didn't have Jamison for most of the season before anyways. Sessions wasn't even on the roster the year before so he was an addition (and as good as a 38 year old shaq would have been). They actually played their best coming out of the gates trying to prove they could win after the announcement so that wasn't the reason like you claim.

The reason they went from 1st in SRS to last in one season is MOSTLY because of the loss of James. Sure the other factors may play into it a little but even with Mo playing, adding sessions and having jamison more of the year they won 25% of those games. Bulls never would have had a fall off like that because of all the talent they had. You are quite hilarious.

FlashBolt
06-01-2014, 09:39 PM
And it's one thing to shoot and practice 3's your entire life and have game plans and plays drawn up to get you open 3's and another to literally shoot your first 3 pointer of your entire life in your rookie season in the NBA.

You do realize what you're saying is hypothetical, right? No one knows what could've been, so how do you? I'm judging it from what is recorded and stated in the history books. I can't say, "Well, Bird could've shot 40% on 10 3PA if he practiced." I mean sure, he obviously would've shot more threes and made a bunch of them but his then I can say that for every damn player.

NBA_Starter
06-01-2014, 09:40 PM
If Mark Jackson says he is then that is enough for me!

mngopher35
06-01-2014, 09:41 PM
and that year without Jordan being the 94-95 season the bulls were barely .500 with Toni having a career year. And beat a really really young Hornets team for their only win of the playoffs. Larry and Mourning were in their first two seasons of the league.

Do you even know what you are talking about anymore? Jordan played in that post season haha, you just continue to impress.

carlessyen
06-01-2014, 09:45 PM
Ill show you something right now you cant argue its the argument winner, and you cant argue it there is no way to. Right now Lebron is dominating the league because his athletic ability and no one can question that, hes over powering everyone etc. If Lebron had Larry Bird's athletic ability would we be having this conversation, and the answer is a definte NO try to spin it how you want its fact.

FlashBolt
06-01-2014, 09:47 PM
Ill show you something right now you cant argue its the argument winner, and you cant argue it there is no way to. Right now Lebron is dominating the league because his athletic ability and no one can question that, hes over powering everyone etc. If Lebron had Larry Bird's athletic ability would we be having this conversation, and the answer is a definte NO try to spin it how you want its fact.

LOL! Jordan dominated because he was athletic. Wilt dominated because he was a physical beast of an athlete. Shaq overpowered everyone because he was quick, strong, and explosive. Being athletic is part of basketball and so you're saying it's not? Running requires the usage of muscles. Might as well say if LeBron can't run, he wouldn't be good! Btw, LeBron has shot 38% from threes with 3.4 3PA the past three seasons. Guess he can't do much, huh!

mngopher35
06-01-2014, 09:51 PM
Ill show you something right now you cant argue its the argument winner, and you cant argue it there is no way to. Right now Lebron is dominating the league because his athletic ability and no one can question that, hes over powering everyone etc. If Lebron had Larry Bird's athletic ability would we be having this conversation, and the answer is a definte NO try to spin it how you want its fact.

This might be your first legit post of the thread. Yes without the insane athletic ability Lebron wouldn't be Lebron. Same with MJ, Shaq, Wilt etc. Doesn't change the fact that one player is better than another, you don't get bonus points for being less athletic.

mngopher35
06-01-2014, 09:52 PM
ha flash we used the same 3 guys as examples.

FlashBolt
06-01-2014, 09:58 PM
ha flash we used the same 3 guys as examples.

Yeah, those tend to be the obvious choices in terms of athleticism. Let's just wait to see what his next joke... I mean post is going to be about.

Bruno
06-01-2014, 10:02 PM
Lebron at his best is better than Bird ever was at his best. now all LBJ has to do is catch him in career accomplishments, which is looking neck and neck honestly. Bird is probably my second favorite player ever, but he's a bit over-rated (most people have him and magic in their top fives, I don't, they're in my top ten). what he and magic did for the league... irreplaceable. but that shouldn't get factored in when discussing which player is better.

Bruno
06-01-2014, 10:05 PM
i want to remind everyone that Mark Jackson said that Kobe would retire better than MJ in 2009 or 2010.

BALLER R
06-01-2014, 10:20 PM
If your already comparing Lebron to Jordan. He's automatically better than Bird.

Hawkeye15
06-01-2014, 10:58 PM
stats favor LeBron, but Bird walked straight into a ready made finals team. However, Bird's career was also cut short.

Its a toss up for most, but I have LeBron just over Bird all time. That being said, I have no issue with someone saying they need to see a bit more from LeBron.

carlessyen
06-01-2014, 11:05 PM
Stats dont favor Lebron cause he shot a lower pct, Bird threw up that many shots he'd have close to same scoring, And Jordan was more than a athlete hed score be a great player without his athleticism, maybe not Shaq and Wilt but we are talking skill, and Jordan was a very skilled and player that played beyond hard.

Hawkeye15
06-01-2014, 11:06 PM
Stats dont favor Lebron cause he shot a lower pct, Bird threw up that many shots he'd have close to same scoring, And Jordan was more than a athlete hed score be a great player without his athleticism, maybe not Shaq and Wilt but we are talking skill, and Jordan was a very skilled and player that played beyond hard.

stats favor LeBron pretty easily actually.

Kenny
06-01-2014, 11:07 PM
I really don't get why people keep bringing this up in the past couple weeks. Lebron has ALOT more basketball left to be played. If he hasn't passed him yet he is going to fly right by him 6-7 years from now.

Big Zo
06-01-2014, 11:12 PM
Larry Bird looks like "Burnie" the Heat mascot. That is all.

goingfor28
06-01-2014, 11:44 PM
Ya. He's past bird right now imo. But even if he is not, by the time he retires he will easily

valade16
06-02-2014, 01:04 AM
You do realize what you're saying is hypothetical, right? No one knows what could've been, so how do you? I'm judging it from what is recorded and stated in the history books. I can't say, "Well, Bird could've shot 40% on 10 3PA if he practiced." I mean sure, he obviously would've shot more threes and made a bunch of them but his then I can say that for every damn player.

Yes it's a hypothetical, but it's called context. You can't simply say this stat > that stat therefore he is better.

Otherwise how is Wilt Chamberlain not both the greatest player ever amd the greatest scorer ever? He averaged 50.1 PPG and according to you we shouldn't look at things like competition, pace, era, etc. to put those #'s in perspective...

Otherwise you better be prepared to say Chris Paul is the greatest PG of all-time, because his numbers clearly reflect that.

Bottom line, use context.

valade16
06-02-2014, 01:05 AM
Oh and the answer to this question is LeBron. He is better than Larry Legend.

mngopher35
06-02-2014, 01:08 AM
Lebron at his best is better than Bird ever was at his best. now all LBJ has to do is catch him in career accomplishments, which is looking neck and neck honestly. Bird is probably my second favorite player ever, but he's a bit over-rated (most people have him and magic in their top fives, I don't, they're in my top ten). what he and magic did for the league... irreplaceable. but that shouldn't get factored in when discussing which player is better.

To be honest I think he has caught him career wise at this point. He has the peak/prime play as you mentioned, the statistics, and is just about at the same longevity at this point (1000 less minutes and 300 less in playoffs). Accolades that each has over the other (so if each have 2 finals mvp nothing will be listed as they cancel out):

Lebron:
1 MVP
5 time 1st All defensive team
1 All nba 2nd team
More total points and ppg on better efficiency
More assists and apg on better A/T ratio
10 All star games (2 mvps)

Bird:
1 Ring
3 time 2nd All defensive team
1 All NBA first team (assuming Lebron made it this year)
More Rebounds and better rebound rate
12 All star games (1 mvp)

I think the above can be called somewhat even, imo favoring Lebron a bit but rings are more value to some. Then add in that Lebron is a better defender throughout (slightly highlighted above) and has the advanced stats quite handily (regular season and playoffs). To me he has done enough at this point to pass Bird in the rankings but it is certainly close. I see your post about Mark Jackson saying that about Kobe but this time it is different, I think he is right (and it isn't a prediction of the future).

Raps18-19 Champ
06-02-2014, 01:35 AM
He already did last year.

amos1er
06-02-2014, 04:31 AM
I have Bird above Duncan, Hakeem, and Russell on my list, would you all say that Lebron has past them too?

amos1er
06-02-2014, 04:37 AM
Bird beat out far greater competition than Lebron. Was a better shooter, scorer, a better rebounder, an equal passer IMO. He also had far better intangibles such as being one of the greatest closers in the game... Was mentally tougher, and the clear alpha male leader of his team. Not to mention one more ring and a bit more longevity. Lebron has a clear edge in defense and thats about it. I have to give this one to Larry still, but I will say that if Lebron wins this year and continues to perform well into his declining years (which is unlikely to me as his game is driven mostly from pure athleticism) he will likely over take him by his careers end. As for now... No... Heck no... Don't be ridiculous... Stop overrating this guy and making people dislike him (mostly his fanbase) even more than they already do.

arlubas
06-02-2014, 05:17 AM
If he wins it this year he surpasses him, simple as that. He already has based on individual accolades, all he needs now is the team achievements. That's not a knock of any sort to Larry Legend btw, the guy is one of the best players ever who I unfortunately managed to watch live only on his final season and the dream team games. When the internet came into play however I managed to watch games from his prime, only to establish first hand that he was one of the most smart players to ever step on the court.

I'd really like to hear Bill Simmons opinion on this though, seeing how much of a massive Bird fan he is.

Munkeysuit
06-02-2014, 05:21 AM
Lebron James contributes more for his team than Larry Bird ever did for his, one on one, Lebron would slaughter Bird. Larry Legend at his best in this era would not be as effective as he was in the 80's, he would have such a hard time keeping up with the athleticism and physicality of the athletes we have now that even Matt Barnes would give him fits. We all know people love to give props to legends of the game, but can we please STOP comparing players from different era's? I mean for crying out loud! you almost have to stop Lebron by tackling him it seems.

amos1er
06-02-2014, 06:20 AM
If he wins it this year he surpasses him, simple as that. He already has based on individual accolades, all he needs now is the team achievements. That's not a knock of any sort to Larry Legend btw, the guy is one of the best players ever who I unfortunately managed to watch live only on his final season and the dream team games. When the internet came into play however I managed to watch games from his prime, only to establish first hand that he was one of the most smart players to ever step on the court.

I'd really like to hear Bill Simmons opinion on this though, seeing how much of a massive Bird fan he is.

Simmons said the same as you actually. He said that if he wins this year he surpasses him. Go figure. He has been singing Lebron's praises as of late.

bgdreton
06-02-2014, 06:21 AM
Lebron James contributes more for his team than Larry Bird ever did for his, one on one, Lebron would slaughter Bird. Larry Legend at his best in this era would not be as effective as he was in the 80's, he would have such a hard time keeping up with the athleticism and physicality of the athletes we have now that even Matt Barnes would give him fits. We all know people love to give props to legends of the game, but can we please STOP comparing players from different era's? I mean for crying out loud! you almost have to stop Lebron by tackling him it seems.


Athleticism should not be compared between era's of 2 players but rather compared relative to their cohorts of the time. Lol Matt barnes stoping Bird thats a bold statement. Im not certain Lebron would beat Bird 1 on 1 who really knows? Is it a game of 21? Is it winners outs? Are the fouls called like they are today or back in the 80's or are there fouls at all? To many variables to argue either way.... I would say If Lebron retired today I would still give it to Bird. Since that is not going to happen baring a terrible injury Lebron will be a top 10 player all time probably top 5.

Side note: I think for some of us who have watched the game evolve from supreme trash talking, a foul is not a foul unless I see blood to what we see today we are not that enamored with just pure athleticism. Of course its cool but what happened to the skill of the game. For example Lebron still has no back to the basket game really other than I am stronger than you back you down and flip it to the rim. What is remarkable is Lebron doesnt ever need that... Why would you develop that when you can do a cross over at the top of the key drive your shoulder into the oppositions chest and get a foul called your way or just finish a lay up. The athleticism of todays game has taken away from the actual skills of a player. Sorry got all off base but as I said before Bird now but 100 percent Lebron later....

amos1er
06-02-2014, 06:29 AM
Lebron James contributes more for his team than Larry Bird ever did for his, one on one, Lebron would slaughter Bird. Larry Legend at his best in this era would not be as effective as he was in the 80's, he would have such a hard time keeping up with the athleticism and physicality of the athletes we have now that even Matt Barnes would give him fits. We all know people love to give props to legends of the game, but can we please STOP comparing players from different era's? I mean for crying out loud! you almost have to stop Lebron by tackling him it seems.

Oh my. The ranting of a fan boy. I am going to take a wild guess and say that you are under 23 years of age because for you to speak that way about Bird you clearly have not seen him play at all or any other player of that era I would imagine. It's annoying to hear people disrespect Bird and say that Lebron has already passed him. I can understand somewhat people saying that with another ring this season Lebron passes Bird. I can respect people who say that Lebron will most likely overtake him when all is said and done, but for someone to sit here and tell us confidently that Lebron would "slaughter" Bird and that Lebron contributes more for his team than Bird ever did is clearly someone who is very ignorant to the sport and likely someone very young and immature. For you to sit here and disrespect someone like Bird who you have no clue about in the first place is just plain foolish and shameful. This kind of garbage really gives your generation and Lebron fans everywhere a bad name. I hope you take what I am saying now as constructive criticism and learn from it and for Pete's sake go watch some youtube videos and documentaries and educate yourself on Larry Bird. Peace.

Chronz
06-02-2014, 01:07 PM
I'd really like to hear Bill Simmons opinion on this though, seeing how much of a massive Bird fan he is.

Pretty sure he has him above Bird by now, Simmons is a huge homer but even he admits that Bird was lucky to play in the era before the uber athletic swingman/Zone Defenses.

jerellh528
06-02-2014, 01:11 PM
Bill Simmons is bullocks, a pure jakgoff

Chronz
06-02-2014, 01:22 PM
Bill Simmons is bullocks, a pure jakgoff

Thats why its remarkable when he goes against his idol. Its hard to get Simmons to be impartial.

Goose17
06-02-2014, 01:30 PM
Did I really just sit hear and hear Mark Jackson say "Lebron was better then Larry Bird"? If anyone knows about 80s and 90s basketball you would think it would be him. I often hear alot of these NBA analysts trying to hype up todays game, which is understandable because it is making money and popular as it has ever been. And trust me the athletes are far superior when it comes to speed and athleticism. Sports science and technology has evolved to where they have the best diets, medicines, and equipment to make a modern day athlete with the right NBA body, and right speed or whatever. To make the player they all look for in the NBA and NFL draft. But there is always that Russell Wilson guy that breaks that mold and doesn't fit the prototype, he has that thing that is missing. Yes todays athlete is superior on many stages. But look at the game. Look at 76 fouls on 3 point shots so far in the playoffs, look at all the turnovers, look at all the guys just letting players go by them, and blown assignments, the flopping. Todays game is no where near as intelligent, tough, or fundamental it was during this previous time period. Those mistakes would find you at the bottem of the bench, back then. Yes people had off games every once in awhile but it has been every night in these series. I truely believe as great a athlete Lebron is , and how physical he is with guys in the league in this era. He couldnt have been then. One of his weakness has always been toughness and Mental toughness. I think in 80s and 90s basketball he would have been more like a Jamal Mashburn, then the superstar he is today. I really think the Heat team of today would have suffered the losses that alot of great teams did to Jordan and the Bulls. I truely don't even see this team beating and more then likely getting swept by teams like the Cavs team that everyone remembers losing to the shot by Jordan, with great talents in Price, Nance, Daughtery. I see Daughtery dominating down low due to Miamis weak inside, and I see Price dominating both of Miami's one guards the entire series. No way they beat Stockton and Malone's Jazz, Birds Celtics, Magic's Lakers. Isiah's Pistons would drive Lebron insane, Drexler's Blazers I dont even know if they could beat the lower end teams like Wilkin's hawks. I could see Willis with his toughness and muscle just bullying these guys. I don't think basing what this guy is doing now, to one of the greatest eras of basketball, and a living Legend is fair. There are few guys in the league like Duncan who could have played as well as they do now then.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/paragraph

Chronz
06-02-2014, 01:33 PM
2011 cavs your joking right? Alot different then a guy getting hurt compared to him leaving. This team was rattled from the announcement, Bulls knew Jordan would be back, thats a totally insane comparison. As well as that team also lost Zydrunas a leader,Shaq was gone. Williams only played in 30 games, as well as Jamison. Sessions and Jickson were the only guys to even play that entire season. Av only played 30 as well that was a completely different team, not one where one player went down. This team and the Jordan's injury season so far of a difference.

Bulls knew what?

LOL at the reasons you're giving. Big Z was done by that point, Shaq often made the team worse and could only be paired with 1 other frontcourt big, Jamison being there the entire season is a + by your logic (considering he wasn't in Cleveland).

Heres the thing about all those peripheral players you named, the team kept winning without them so long as 1 player was around, Bron. When Mo went down, Bron just played more PG and the team went like 10-0 or something.

Bron has led the weakest +65 win team in history, no other player meant as much to his teams winning% IMO. Its evident in the fact that you could give the same organization, multiple #1 draft picks, including a player that would have been the best sidekick Bron ever got to play with there, and still not produce a single winning season.

arlubas
06-02-2014, 01:56 PM
Bird was lucky to play in the era before the uber athletic swingman/Zone Defenses.
I don't know about that. Great players would've been great regardless of the rules they would face for the simple fact that they would adjust, to me at least.

Crackadalic
06-02-2014, 01:56 PM
Lebron had a prime wade and bosh for two years

Bird had two hall of famers for most of his career and had players that would be all stars on any of the lebron led teams

Yes you can use competition level as a argument but you have to also account teammates

Lebron best player pre heat was mo freaking Williams. He wasn't even a top 10 pg in his allstar season

Big Z. Come on he broke down the middle of lebrons middle years. Andy V was a good hustle player. Everyone else were throwaway garbage

koreancabbage
06-02-2014, 02:08 PM
Bird beat out far greater competition than Lebron. Was a better shooter, scorer, a better rebounder, an equal passer IMO. He also had far better intangibles such as being one of the greatest closers in the game... Was mentally tougher, and the clear alpha male leader of his team. Not to mention one more ring and a bit more longevity. Lebron has a clear edge in defense and thats about it. I have to give this one to Larry still, but I will say that if Lebron wins this year and continues to perform well into his declining years (which is unlikely to me as his game is driven mostly from pure athleticism) he will likely over take him by his careers end. As for now... No... Heck no... Don't be ridiculous... Stop overrating this guy and making people dislike him (mostly his fanbase) even more than they already do.

competition vs skilled players. NBA was less skilled and talented back then than it is now. But projection wise, ya, I can see Lebron easily passing Bird by seasons end (if we wins a chip)

arlubas
06-02-2014, 02:10 PM
Bulls knew Jordan would be back
Nike (and we all know how much Nike meant to Jordan's career and vice versa) was contemplating stopping the Jordan line because even they were convinced that he was done for good. Hell, the Jordan X was designed as a tribute to his career accomplishments, hence the bottom of the shoe. Where are you getting your facts from anyway?

arlubas
06-02-2014, 02:13 PM
Yes you can use competition level as a argument but you have to also account teammates

Lebron best player pre heat was mo freaking Williams. He wasn't even a top 10 pg in his allstar season

Big Z. Come on he broke down the middle of lebrons middle years. Andy V was a good hustle player. Everyone else were throwaway garbage
Seriously is there any point in arguing with someone that Lebron wasn't a beast in his Cavs days and that he clearly lacked the supporting cast to be successful? You have to be blind or blatantly biased to not acknowledge that.

amos1er
06-02-2014, 02:40 PM
Mark Jackson often times gets a bit excited and say some crazy ****. Wouldn't read too much into anything he says in the moment. Lets look back to 2006 and check out his credibility factor now shall we...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDNBcRsB_-0

According to Jackson Kobe was going to surpass Jordan. So lets take this supposed now gospel (now that he is saying things in favor of Lebron) with a grain of salt.

amos1er
06-02-2014, 02:41 PM
competition vs skilled players. NBA was less skilled and talented back then than it is now. But projection wise, ya, I can see Lebron easily passing Bird by seasons end (if we wins a chip)

Wah?

Chronz
06-02-2014, 02:56 PM
I don't know about that. Great players would've been great regardless of the rules they would face for the simple fact that they would adjust, to me at least.
Well yea, we aren't talking a profound difference, but it doesn't mean some players are lucky/unlucky to be ahead or behind their times.

amos1er
06-02-2014, 03:54 PM
This thread must be a joke. James is already top 5 all time, just look at his stats. When it's all said and done if he continues this pace for 5 more seasons he will be goat. I could see him with 7 or 8 Mvps, 6-9 rings and Atleast a couple dpoys. It's not even fair to compare bird, especially defensively. Lebron can guard 1-5 at an elite level as well. His versatility is unmatched.

Haha... Nice.

koreancabbage
06-02-2014, 03:57 PM
Wah?

what? i made a clear distinction between competitiveness and actual skills. We got 7 footers who can shoot threes with no problem and with handles. Big men back in the day was like a bull in a china shop.

you still have your top tier superstar and star players like today but the role players are all much more skilled than role players back in the day. They are more toolsy if you will.

amos1er
06-02-2014, 03:59 PM
Thats why its remarkable when he goes against his idol. Its hard to get Simmons to be impartial.

Either that or a clever twist on his latest propaganda. Who knows what his motivations really are other than himself. Whichever way one spins it... It all comes down to a matter of opinion in the end.

valade16
06-02-2014, 04:03 PM
Well yea, we aren't talking a profound difference, but it doesn't mean some players are lucky/unlucky to be ahead or behind their times.

In this day and age where the 3pter is so prolific and spacing is at such a premium? Bird would have been just fine lol

ManRam
06-02-2014, 04:05 PM
Kobephiles running out of ways to be at least maybe somewhat reasonably defensive and are now just resorting to blatant sarcastic trolling. Hey, if the well is that dry in regards to LeBron, so be it!

THE MTL
06-02-2014, 04:13 PM
Lebron James is better than Larry Bird. I think thats a safe consensus to make. And I dont want to hear the Wade/Bosh argument cause Larry played with 3 other HOfers too. Mchale and Parish are two of the top 50 players ever and they were in their prime.

arlubas
06-02-2014, 04:23 PM
what? i made a clear distinction between competitiveness and actual skills. We got 7 footers who can shoot threes with no problem and with handles. Big men back in the day was like a bull in a china shop.

you still have your top tier superstar and star players like today but the role players are all much more skilled than role players back in the day. They are more toolsy if you will.
That goes both ways though, meaning that you may be getting bigs who can shoot the ball like wings and dribbling the ball but you are also lacking bigs who actually play like bigs. Can you imagine a Ewing or Alonzo being in today's league? They would've simply destroyed the competition.

TheIlladelph16
06-02-2014, 04:49 PM
I've had him neck and neck with Bird for a year now, so I think this season has safely pushed him past Bird. He pretty much has to only catch him in accolades at this point, which will undoubtedly happen with James being relatively young still.

KnicksorBust
06-02-2014, 04:57 PM
Why do we need to compare a player in their prime to a guy retired for 20 years? If he hasnt passed him now then its obvious he will soon/eventually.

KniCks4LiFe
06-02-2014, 05:01 PM
here's the question I pose, who played in the tougher defense era?

Larry Legend would score at will at times and that's w/ hand checks, leaning on the back and touch fouls not called. LeBron is playing in the freeze tag era w/ 2 better complimentary players than Larry ever had. So you have to acknowledge that.

ThuglifeJ
06-02-2014, 05:01 PM
Larry bird is one of the most underrated players on this bird. I think some ppl just see numbers (even tho they were good), sports center, and physicality.

Bird was amazing. Like unfair what the guy could say/do. Auto top 5 ever for me. Sometimes I think I'd rather have him over anyone...only thing is the shortness of his career.

Picture a Dirk mixed with Kidd.

Hawkeye15
06-02-2014, 07:18 PM
Larry bird is one of the most underrated players on this bird. I think some ppl just see numbers (even tho they were good), sports center, and physicality.

Bird was amazing. Like unfair what the guy could say/do. Auto top 5 ever for me. Sometimes I think I'd rather have him over anyone...only thing is the shortness of his career.

Picture a Dirk mixed with Kidd.

his injuries were real though, so they have to factor in. If he never gets hurt, sure, he is top 5 ever. But he did deal with lingering back issues, and had and off court temper issue that got him bumped up here and there.

That stuff matters. A guy like Kobe is so awesome not only because of his talent level, but the fact that he treated the off court crap just like he was on court.

Crackadalic
06-02-2014, 09:46 PM
here's the question I pose, who played in the tougher defense era?

Larry Legend would score at will at times and that's w/ hand checks, leaning on the back and touch fouls not called. LeBron is playing in the freeze tag era w/ 2 better complimentary players than Larry ever had. So you have to acknowledge that.

I was going to respond to your post till I saw your sig. Guess we have to rock paper scissors for her bro

lawrule
06-02-2014, 10:50 PM
Lebron is the far more physically gifted athlete: 40"+ vertical, elite speed and elite strength all in a 6'7", 265 lbs package.

Bird had an inferior vertical (probably around 30"), average speed and strength. He was 1" taller but weighed at least 40 lbs. less.

Bird however, was the far more skilled PLAYER.

A. SHOOTING

Bird was the prototypical 50/40/90 guy: at or near these benchmarks every season in his prime.

Meanwhile, Lebron is a career 34% 3pt shooter, and is below 75% from the line for his career. Keep in mind that Bird was an elite 3 pt shooter in an era when there were far fewer attempts and far fewer accomplished 3 pt shooters. 3 pt shooting is now an integral part of off-season training and yet lebron is still far worse than Bird ever was.

B. REBOUNDING

Bird was also a superior rebounder, averaging 11 rpg in his peak, and a career 10 rpg player.

Lebron has never averaged over 8 rpg, and is averaging nearly 3 rebounds less per game than bird, despite being only an inch shorter, 45 pounds heavier/thickly muscled, and having a vastly superior vertical.

C. CLUTCH PLAYER

Larry was never afraid to shoot the ball to decide a game, and demanded the ball in clutch situations. Lebron frequently passes up game deciding shots and never insists on taking a deciding shot. Spoelstra doesn't insist because Lebron doesn't.

When the game is on the line, Larry wanted the ball. Lebron would prefer to pass to someone else.

In their prime, I take Larry Bird. A far more efficient scorer, a superior rebounder and fearless when the game is on the line.

THE MTL
06-02-2014, 11:10 PM
here's the question I pose, who played in the tougher defense era?

Larry Legend would score at will at times and that's w/ hand checks, leaning on the back and touch fouls not called. LeBron is playing in the freeze tag era w/ 2 better complimentary players than Larry ever had. So you have to acknowledge that.

Read up on Bird's HOF teammates before u say anything. Parish and Mchale was giving Bird almost 20-10 EACH!

I don't think era matters. Each player would have adjusted to the times in my opinion. Lebron is the most physically gifted athlete ever, u don't think handchecks or harder fouls would have stopped him

Tony_Starks
06-02-2014, 11:20 PM
No. I take that back, hell No!

bucketss
06-03-2014, 12:44 AM
the king has surpassed larry and is now sitting beside kareem and magic

ThuglifeJ
06-03-2014, 12:47 AM
the king has surpassed larry and is now sitting beside kareem and magic

Delusions are nice

PowerHouse
06-03-2014, 01:48 AM
If (and this is a big if) Lebron could make the adjustment to the 80s era where defensive players had much more freedom with hand checks and leaning then I think he would be very close to Bird but not quite better very much like Dr. J. In the 80s everybody recognized the greatness of Erving but nobody (except Sixers fans) thought he was better than Bird. Lebron and Dr. J are very similar players with the absurd athleticism, strength, both great defensively, both efficent shooters, etc.

IKnowHoops
06-03-2014, 02:12 AM
Delusions are nice

The same stats that say Jordan and Wilt were the most dominant players also say that Lebron is right there with them. Denial is also nice.

amos1er
06-03-2014, 06:05 AM
The same stats that say Jordan and Wilt were the most dominant players also say that Lebron is right there with them. Denial is also nice.

Rules were tougher back then. Factor in handchecking and modern day flopping and all the ***** *** ticky tack calls that players get now and no way could Lebron have been on their level if he played in their era's.

vics
06-03-2014, 06:29 AM
If (and this is a big if) Lebron could make the adjustment to the 80s era where defensive players had much more freedom with hand checks and leaning then I think he would be very close to Bird but not quite better very much like Dr. J. In the 80s everybody recognized the greatness of Erving but nobody (except Sixers fans) thought he was better than Bird. Lebron and Dr. J are very similar players with the absurd athleticism, strength, both great defensively, both efficent shooters, etc.What? Are you asking for time travel, just to know if Lebron could make adjustments? We all know it will not happen, so how would you factually say that he can or can't actually adjust.

vics
06-03-2014, 06:34 AM
Rules were tougher back then. Factor in handchecking and modern day flopping and all the ***** *** ticky tack calls that players get now and no way could Lebron have been on their level if he played in their era's.Well if you factor in hand checking today, Lebron will be a much better defender today. Players are better defenders today, since they are not allowed to hand check but instead use their skills to defend.

koreancabbage
06-03-2014, 10:55 AM
Rules were tougher back then. Factor in handchecking and modern day flopping and all the ***** *** ticky tack calls that players get now and no way could Lebron have been on their level if he played in their era's.

why not? Imagine Lebron being able to get away with more than he does today, especially handchecking on the defensive end. I think he'll be just fine. The game was more rough back then for sure but Lebron is an athlete at 6'8'' 250+ lbs. Lebron is a big man. Don't get me wrong, but him flopping was to get away with calls when weren't even necessary. He does it like 1-2 times a game everyone like 3-4 games like for the last 2 years when it became a epidemic. Remember, flopping has always been around, so lets not act like a fool that Lebron's been the only one doing it. Flopping was around even in the 90s.

FlashBolt
06-03-2014, 11:14 AM
People say rules were tougher back then. Imagine if LeBron was able to push people around.. Right now with better athletes, no one could stop him. Well, what happens if LeBron was the one grabbing, pushing, and tackling people?

Chronz
06-03-2014, 11:39 AM
Rules were tougher back then. Factor in handchecking and modern day flopping and all the ***** *** ticky tack calls that players get now and no way could Lebron have been on their level if he played in their era's.

Rules were easier for isolation players. Factor in the fact that hand checking was first curtailed in the 80's, then again in the 90's and that zones werent legal until the turn of the century (not to mention superior athletes of today) and your post is full of crap.

Like Hakeem said, the NBA allowed him to display his individual prowess, College stifled his game, the reason? Wasn't hand checking, it was zones. The same zones his coach *****ed about when teams would use them illegally vs Dream, same thing Phil did for MJ.

Chronz
06-03-2014, 11:42 AM
why not? Imagine Lebron being able to get away with more than he does today, especially handchecking on the defensive end. I think he'll be just fine. The game was more rough back then for sure but Lebron is an athlete at 6'8'' 250+ lbs. Lebron is a big man. Don't get me wrong, but him flopping was to get away with calls when weren't even necessary. He does it like 1-2 times a game everyone like 3-4 games like for the last 2 years when it became a epidemic. Remember, flopping has always been around, so lets not act like a fool that Lebron's been the only one doing it. Flopping was around even in the 90s.

Flopping was around since the 70's, players are just so much better at it today. Still a minority play compared to far more significant differences.

Chronz
06-03-2014, 11:44 AM
Either that or a clever twist on his latest propaganda. Who knows what his motivations really are other than himself. Whichever way one spins it... It all comes down to a matter of opinion in the end.

Latest? His book came out like 4 years ago or something. Hes been pretty consistent on this one.

Chronz
06-03-2014, 11:46 AM
In this day and age where the 3pter is so prolific and spacing is at such a premium? Bird would have been just fine lol

Just fine is true, abit harder is also true. I actually think Bird would become more of a spacer today, tho he absolutely hates the reliance on the 3pt shot today, I think he would see the light eventually.

koreancabbage
06-03-2014, 11:47 AM
Flopping was around since the 70's, players are just so much better at it today. Still a minority play compared to far more significant differences.

Agreed. Flopping doesn't really play a huge part in 99%(figuratively) of the outcome of the games. The better team just wins at the end of the game.

Sly Guy
06-03-2014, 11:48 AM
YOu think this is good basketball? You have watched these playoffs and think this league is on par with 80s and 90s basketball? There is no way you can serious say that. Have you watched these guys falling down over each other, shooting uncontested layups, and fouling on threes at big moments? Ive never seen such bad fundamentals, bad defense, and low IQ basketball in my life this reminds me of YMCA JR High/high school league hoops, where the coaches were gas station attendants and Micky D's clerks.

I'm all for the ball that was played in the 80's and 90's over the ball played today, but I think you're underestimating the difference in the players athletically from that era to now. There's no way a Larry Bird could keep up with a LeBron for 48 minutes, much less a 7-game series. No, LeBron's game, like most of today's players isn't nearly as fundamentally sound, but it doesn't have to be when you routinely get your face to the level of the rim before shoving your arm down it.

ManRam
06-03-2014, 12:07 PM
I'm all for the ball that was played in the 80's and 90's over the ball played today, but I think you're underestimating the difference in the players athletically from that era to now. There's no way a Larry Bird could keep up with a LeBron for 48 minutes, much less a 7-game series. No, LeBron's game, like most of today's players isn't nearly as fundamentally sound, but it doesn't have to be when you routinely get your face to the level of the rim before shoving your arm down it.

I agree with your point completely...

....but what I don't agree with is this notion that LeBron isn't insanely skilled. Yes, he's hyper athletic, but that doesn't mean he isn't also skilled. He's as skilled of a passer as there is with some uncanny vision, his shooting game has grown tremendously (dipped a tad this year from the mid range), he's developed a competent post game and his basketball IQ is just off the god damn charts. The guy is a walking definition of a point-forward, something that requires an insane skill set.

And even so, it wouldn't matter if he wasn't. If he was an all time great merely because of his athleticism, that doesn't negate his greatness in any way shape or form. It doesn't matter HOW you go about being as good as you are, it just matters that you are.

Lil Rhody
06-03-2014, 12:10 PM
I hate people say players in the past couldn't keep up in today's game because of the strength and speed of today's athletes.


Why can't anyone say hey if Bird was around in today's games he would be more fit and his back probably would be better with today's medicine

FlashBolt
06-03-2014, 12:15 PM
LeBron is one of the most skilled players of all time. The definition of skill is someone who does something exceptionally well. Does LeBron not score exceptionally well? Does LeBron not rebound exceptionally well compared to other SF's? (Larry wasn't a greater rebounder, adjust the pace: Bird's team played at a constant 104 while James played at a pace of 93). Is LeBron not exceptionally skilled in passing? Defending? So I think most of you misunderstood the meaning of "skill". If you're talking about fundamentals, I agree. But when you're as athletically gifted as LeBron, it makes up a ton for it.

FlashBolt
06-03-2014, 12:18 PM
I hate people say players in the past couldn't keep up in today's game because of the strength and speed of today's athletes.


Why can't anyone say hey if Bird was around in today's games he would be more fit and his back probably would be better with today's medicine

Because one is undoubtedly true. Athletes are way better in strength and speed. There have been tests that prove this and you can even take a look at progression. Usain Bolt is lightyears ahead in terms of his former competitors. But, Bird wasn't athletic to begin with. He'd be a Dirk type player who is more agile. Yeah, his back wouldn't be a problem but in an athletic game of today, he'd have much more difficulty.

I just want to add, if LeBron was born in that era, he would have a tougher mentality. Not saying he doesn't have one but he would have more hatred. We're born in a generation in which technology and everything alike have brought most of us together. LeBron wasn't born in the era in which blacks had a lot of hatred and went through tougher times socially. Can't blame him just like you can't blame Wilt for being in a fairly weak era. He played with what he had and that's all he can do; play the game.

koreancabbage
06-03-2014, 12:22 PM
I hate people say players in the past couldn't keep up in today's game because of the strength and speed of today's athletes.


Why can't anyone say hey if Bird was around in today's games he would be more fit and his back probably would be better with today's medicine

All thing being equal and we teleport each player and put them directly in the middle of things. No point in arguing if Bird was raised in this era or not because you could already argue anything hypothetical. If this and if that.

And if you hate it - you have too much angst and care too much of something that won't ever change your life lol.

ManRam
06-03-2014, 12:28 PM
I hate people say players in the past couldn't keep up in today's game because of the strength and speed of today's athletes.


Why can't anyone say hey if Bird was around in today's games he would be more fit and his back probably would be better with today's medicine

Players adapt, for sure. But the fact remains in terms of athleticism. It just wasn't the same and continually improves. We're dipping into a continually larger and larger talent pool...so we're going to continually see better and better athletes.

The problems you're mentioning goes both ways. Like I said, these guys would adapt. Comparing between eras is tough, but the people that assume one was so much more difficult to play in than the other are missing how much the differences impact things going both ways. Sure, the 80s saw a "tougher" brand of basketball...but players today are bigger and stronger. Who's to say they couldn't adapt? They're the best players we have in the world...if people survived back then these same guys would survive too. And yeah...the rules were different in the 80s and that impacted things in a variety of ways, but those playing magically jumping into today's NBA would have to make an equally difficult transition to adjust to modern rules. The game has adapted to adjust to the rules. Popovich especially talks about this all the time.

Hopping in your time machine and going from the 2010s to the 80s would be no more difficult than hopping in your time machine and going from from the 80s to the 2010s. They'd both be hard on that mythical player, but an adaptation has to occur both ways and I'm not convinced either generation is more prepared for it than the other.


I think we get too caught up saying "so and so didn't have to deal with this like so and so did". That's not the best way to go about it. It's hard comparing between eras, for sure though

FlashBolt
06-03-2014, 12:32 PM
Players adapt, for sure. But the fact remains in terms of athleticism. It just wasn't the same and continually improves. We're dipping into a continually larger and larger talent pool...so we're going to continually see better and better athletes.

The problems you're mentioning goes both ways. Like I said, these guys would adapt. Comparing between eras is tough, but the people that assume one was so much more difficult to play in than the other are missing how much the differences impact things going both ways. Sure, the 80s saw a "tougher" brand of basketball...but players today are bigger and stronger. Who's to say they couldn't adapt? They're the best players we have in the world...if people survived back then these same guys would survive too. And yeah...the rules were different in the 80s and that impacted things in a variety of ways, but those playing magically jumping into today's NBA would have to make an equally difficult transition to adjust to modern rules. The game has adapted to adjust to the rules. Popovich especially talks about this all the time.

Hopping in your time machine and going from the 2010s to the 80s would be no more difficult than hopping in your time machine and going from from the 80s to the 2010s. They'd both be hard on that mythical player, but an adaptation has to occur both ways and I'm not convinced either generation is more prepared for it than the other.


I think we get too caught up saying "so and so didn't have to deal with this like so and so did". That's not the best way to go about it. It's hard comparing between eras, for sure though

Agreed. I think when we talk about all time greats, there is no wrong answer. Way too many factors that one cannot even fathom. Even if we argue one way, someone else can argue the other way. There is literally no wrong answer to such comparisons. For now, I think we should only compare players of the same generation. Someone like Durant vs LeBron is a much easier comparison than LeBron vs Jordan. Heck, comparing LeBron vs Kobe is tough as well. Kobe vs McGrady? That's a better comparison.

Stinkyoutsider
06-03-2014, 12:39 PM
I'm not much of a Lebron fan but I can admit that he is better than Bird when it comes to being a complete player.

Although I think Bird was an underrated defender, Lebron is better defensively. Offensively, Bird had more talent when it came to scoring and I think they're even when it comes to making plays for others. Some people forget that Bird was a very good playmaker and we all know Lebron can make every pass and handle the ball like a point guard.

Bird has the advantage when it comes to mental toughness. From comments, interviews, and what I see from Lebron during games, it seems that he's kind of a sensitive guy. Kind of defensive maybe? Bird had an attacking mentality and would come after you.

I wish Bird could have played for a longer period of time so we could really compare the 2.

Tony_Starks
06-03-2014, 12:44 PM
The thing Bird has that wont be touched is competitiveness, pure skill, toughness, and willingness and ability to make huge plays when it counts. That's reserved for the Bird, Magic, and MJ's of the world. Modern players that have it would be Kobe, Westbrook, and Wade, even though people tend to dismiss Wade now because his health declined rapidly.

That's not a slight against Lebron, it's just that level of "killer instinct" is pretty rare......

FlashBolt
06-03-2014, 12:46 PM
I'm not much of a Lebron fan but I can admit that he is better than Bird when it comes to being a complete player.

Although I think Bird was an underrated defender, Lebron is better defensively. Offensively, Bird had more talent when it came to scoring and I think they're even when it comes to making plays for others. Some people forget that Bird was a very good playmaker and we all know Lebron can make every pass and handle the ball like a point guard.

Bird has the advantage when it comes to mental toughness. From comments, interviews, and what I see from Lebron during games, it seems that he's kind of a sensitive guy. Kind of defensive maybe? Bird had an attacking mentality and would come after you.

I wish Bird could have played for a longer period of time so we could really compare the 2.

This is not fair. LeBron is exposed to media that Bird has never and will never come close to. LeBron can be exposed via TV, internet, newspapers, magazines, twitter, facebook, instagram, etc., Plus, consider the fact that many players today are born in a generation in which everyone are socially friendly. They connect to each other via social apps, texting, and well.. you know. It's a much different generation. If Bird was in today's era, I very much doubt he would have that same mentality. Bird would be texting Kobe while tweeting Durant.

ChicagoJ
06-03-2014, 12:50 PM
I know fans like to debate these comparisons, but I saw an interview with Patrick Ewing where he refused to say who the best player was. He qualified all his answers with who he thought was the best in his era (mj). It's probably the best way to go with these sort of debates or player comparisons.

Lil Rhody
06-03-2014, 03:10 PM
I just think we as humans progress athletically so of bird was born in te 80s he could be more athletic. And ya hate is a strong word I just try to see both sides idk

PowerHouse
06-03-2014, 03:17 PM
What? Are you asking for time travel, just to know if Lebron could make adjustments? We all know it will not happen, so how would you factually say that he can or can't actually adjust.

What the hell are you talking about?

If you read my comment you would have known that I didnt factually say that he can or cant actually adjust. I said if he could, leaving the question out there wide open. And as for the time travel wise crack, if you would have read the admin's post you would see that he is imagining Lebron in Bird's 80s/90s era, not the other way around.

You and your 10 posts have a lot of learning to do about PSD.

SLY WILLIAMS
06-03-2014, 03:24 PM
I can not say for sure who was better since they are so different. Bird was better at some things that people think Lebron is great at. Lebron gets compliments for his passing....Bird was one of the best passers ever. Lebron gets compliments for his rebounding. Bird was a better rebounder. Lebron is a better defender. Lebron is better at driving to the hoop. Bird was better outside and from the FT line. Lebron does not have any where near the mental toughness of Bird. Bird played with both hands. I could not stand Bird as a player. I hated him but it is crazy how clutch he was. If you taped his hands behind his back he would probably forearm the ball in the hoop to win a game. If I was choosing a team I would have MJ at SG, Lebron at SF and play Bird at PF.

FlashBolt
06-03-2014, 03:27 PM
I can not say for sure who was better since they are so different. Bird was better at some things that people think Lebron is great at. Lebron gets compliments for his passing....Bird was one of the best passers ever. Lebron gets compliments for his rebounding. Bird was a better rebounder. Lebron is a better defender. Lebron is better at driving to the hoop. Bird was better outside and from the FT line. Lebron does not have any where near the mental toughness of Bird. Bird played with both hands. I could not stand Bird as a player. I hated him but it is crazy how clutch he was. If you taped his hands behind his back he would probably forearm the ball in the hoop to win a game. If I was choosing a team I would have MJ at SG, Lebron at SF and play Bird at PF.

When you talk about rebound, there is a huge argument that rebounding is highly inflated based on how they played. Back to the basket, more rebounds. Wilt averaged 25-28 rebounds for multiple seasons, very much doubt he would produce that kind of capacity. I think Bird and James were both equal in rebounding but the numbers can be very misleading. But yeah, you can also make the case that Bird would score more so it definitely goes both ways.

SLY WILLIAMS
06-03-2014, 03:30 PM
By the way I always read on PSD how unathletic Bird was. That is not true. He was not the fastest nor did he jump out of the building but he was very athletic. Here are 2 stats that may surprise some people.

Lebron James Blocks per 36 minutes played -.7 per game
Larry Bird Blocks per 36 minutes played - .8 per game

Lebron James Steals per 36 minutes played -1.6 per game
Larry Bird Steals per 36 minutes played - 1.6 per game

SLY WILLIAMS
06-03-2014, 03:34 PM
When you talk about rebound, there is a huge argument that rebounding is highly inflated based on how they played. Back to the basket, more rebounds. Wilt averaged 25-28 rebounds for multiple seasons, very much doubt he would produce that kind of capacity. I think Bird and James were both equal in rebounding but the numbers can be very misleading. But yeah, you can also make the case that Bird would score more so it definitely goes both ways.

I can understand what you are saying but Bird was a relentless rebounder. Lets look at the guys in their own eras. Bird was a top 8 rebounder in the league many seasons. Has Lebron ever been a top 8 rebounder in any of his seasons?

NoahH
06-03-2014, 05:38 PM
Yeahh....

I was going to reply in this thread with a solid counter-argument and then decided to save my time and energy

amos1er
06-03-2014, 06:16 PM
Rules were easier for isolation players. Factor in the fact that hand checking was first curtailed in the 80's, then again in the 90's and that zones werent legal until the turn of the century (not to mention superior athletes of today) and your post is full of crap.

Like Hakeem said, the NBA allowed him to display his individual prowess, College stifled his game, the reason? Wasn't hand checking, it was zones. The same zones his coach *****ed about when teams would use them illegally vs Dream, same thing Phil did for MJ.

Iso is not Lebron's strength anyways, why even bring it up?

I see what your getting at about zones, but even you have to admit that the rules are way more ticky tack in terms of getting to the line then they used to be. Lebron is able to put his head down, go to the hole and get to the line with very minimal contact compared to what guys like Magic, Bird, and Jordan had to endure to get a foul called in their favor. Also, what the deem flagrant is much more strict than it used to be. As a result, that has opened up the game for slashing in ways that players of the 80's and 90's could have only dreamed. It's a floppers paradise now a days.

bucketss
06-03-2014, 08:45 PM
The thing Bird has that wont be touched is competitiveness, pure skill, toughness, and willingness and ability to make huge plays when it counts. That's reserved for the Bird, Magic, and MJ's of the world. Modern players that have it would be Kobe, Westbrook, and Wade, even though people tend to dismiss Wade now because his health declined rapidly.

That's not a slight against Lebron, it's just that level of "killer instinct" is pretty rare......

i think you're mistaking killer instinct with chucking, westbrook is a chucker LOL a comical one at that ( see game 6)

beasted86
06-03-2014, 08:48 PM
LeBron is better than Bird already if he retired today.

Jeffy25
06-03-2014, 09:00 PM
He's already caught bird in my opinion....and if I have a favorite player whoever played, it would be bird.

I loved bird, don't like Lebron much. But Lebron is easily better.

Jeffy25
06-03-2014, 09:04 PM
here's the question I pose, who played in the tougher defense era?

Larry Legend would score at will at times and that's w/ hand checks, leaning on the back and touch fouls not called. LeBron is playing in the freeze tag era w/ 2 better complimentary players than Larry ever had. So you have to acknowledge that.

Mchale and parish are worse than wade and bosh?

FlashBolt
06-03-2014, 10:17 PM
Mchale and parish are worse than wade and bosh?

Apparently so.. But somehow McHale/Parish/Bird would beat Wade/Bosh/James.. Which could only mean Bird>Bron.

Jeffy25
06-03-2014, 10:30 PM
Apparently so.. But somehow McHale/Parish/Bird would beat Wade/Bosh/James.. Which could only mean Bird>Bron.

Logic

Chronz
06-03-2014, 10:32 PM
Iso is not Lebron's strength anyways, why even bring it up?
Because it is a strength, especially in an era where you cant wall off the rim without trapping first.


I see what your getting at about zones, but even you have to admit that the rules are way more ticky tack in terms of getting to the line then they used to be. Lebron is able to put his head down, go to the hole and get to the line with very minimal contact compared to what guys like Magic, Bird, and Jordan had to endure to get a foul called in their favor.
Whatever difference you think we agree on, it wouldn't change my opinion that zones are more influential in this case. With a brute like Bron, hand checking isn't the difference maker that a wall of defenders is. Getting by the initial defender has never been a problem for premier stars, its the help they worry about, and in an era where you have to actually wait for the player to get the ball before sending help, its alil too late to contain a physical specimen like Bron.


Also, what the deem flagrant is much more strict than it used to be. As a result, that has opened up the game for slashing in ways that players of the 80's and 90's could have only dreamed. It's a floppers paradise now a days.
LMFAO. Nah, the soft/free flowing 80's were a slashers dream, imagine not having to face as many half court possessions against inferior athletes who cant even position themselves freely. Game over, its why you had twigs like Alex English carving up defenses in transition. In the right system, I could see Bron DESTROYING the soft 80's. The 90's are more physical and they started allowing some semblance of zone defense to make it harder, but Im sure you would see Bron's coach *****ing about teams loading up illegally just the same.

Whatever the case, its unreasonable to assume it would be a profound difference when its far more likely the fast break game would be more likely to help a guy like Bron.

FlashBolt
06-03-2014, 10:38 PM
Skinny John Stockton would dominate the league but LeBron James wouldn't.

-Michael Jordan fans


Muggsy Bogues averaged 11/10/4 on 47% shooting but LeBron James won't survive that era.

-Michael Jordan fans


Do you guys even apply logic to your equation?

SLY WILLIAMS
06-03-2014, 10:45 PM
Skinny John Stockton would dominate the league but LeBron James wouldn't.

-Michael Jordan fans


Muggsy Bogues averaged 11/10/4 on 47% shooting but LeBron James won't survive that era.

-Michael Jordan fans


Do you guys even apply logic to your equation?


Lebron would be a great player in that era just like he is now but he would not be as great as Jordan.

Edit this is not a Jordan thread, lol. Sorry I got confused. If I'm picking a team Ill take Larry and MJ. Lebron would be on it as well but not in my first 2 picks.

FlashBolt
06-03-2014, 10:46 PM
Lebron would be a great player in that era just like he is now but he would not be as great as Jordan.

I'm sorry but I'll be the first to say that there is no way of knowing.

SLY WILLIAMS
06-03-2014, 10:51 PM
I'm sorry but I'll be the first to say that there is no way of knowing.

There is no way of knowing 90% of what is posted in this forum. If there was there would be no reason to discuss it since we would already know. That is why we post out opinions based on what we have seen...or just fan alliances. I can not be accused of being a Bird or Jordan fan. I disliked them both.

ramsizzle
06-03-2014, 10:54 PM
Lebron might not be the better individual player right now but he will pass very soon if not already. Larry got hurt and just didn't have the dominance for an extended period of time. The sustained greatness of a Lebron James will propel him into that top 5 for sure, somewhere Larry Legend simply is not.

NBA_Starter
06-03-2014, 10:59 PM
I for one think he is but I am biased.

lawrule
06-04-2014, 03:51 AM
Lebron might not be the better individual player right now but he will pass very soon if not already. Larry got hurt and just didn't have the dominance for an extended period of time. The sustained greatness of a Lebron James will propel him into that top 5 for sure, somewhere Larry Legend simply is not.

Regardless of longevity, there are certain benchmarks that lebron will never reach, which bird accomplished on a regular basis.

1. Bird had BACK TO BACK 50/40/90 seasons.
It is safe to say that lebron will never have a 50/40/90 season.

2. Bird had FOUR CONSECUTIVE SEASONS where he shot at least 49/40/88.

3. Bird shot at least 40% from 3 point range in SIX seasons.
Lebon has only 1 season shooting over 40% from 3 pt range in 11 seasons.

4. Bird led the LEAGUE in FT% 3 seasons, and shot over 90% in five seasons.
Lebon has ZERO seasons shooting even 80% much less 90% from the line.

5. Bird averaged 10 rpg for his career and averaged at least 10 rpg during his first six seasons, and barely missed the mark in his 7th season, averaging 9.8 rpg. His career peak is 11 rpg, despite being 40 lbs lighter and just 1" taller than lebron.

Bird played alongside two outstanding rebounders in Kevin Mchale and Robert Parish, yet still averaged double figure rebounds for his CAREER.

Lebron's peak is only 8 rpg, and his career average is nearly 3 rpg lower (7.2 vs 10.0), despite being almost the same height, having a superior vertical, bigger hands and a 45 lb. weight advantage.

6. Bird won his 3 titles in a much more competitive era, competing directly against the elite Sixers in the east, and of course against the absolutely stacked Lakers out west.

Lebron is competing against the pacers, a team which features a 7'2" center who regularly has zero rebound games, a crackhead guard in lance stephenson, and a pseudo superstar in george who can't even focus on basketball because of a paternity suit.

7. Larry Legend is called Larry Legend because he is one of the game's great clutch players. He is one of the game's most fearless players: top 3 with Magic and Michael occupying the other spots.

Lebron would rather pass to Bosh, or Wade, or Ray Allen or Rashard Lewis, or, you get the picture.

Lebon will take the last shot, but he doesn't WANT to take the last shot, and he certainly does not NEED to take the last shot. Psychologically, he's very different from bird and magic and michael. He's not an alpha. He's a beta with a superior physique who shrinks from the spotlight in the biggest moments.

8. Larry was willing to sacrifice his body for his team. He probably lost 4, and perhaps 5 seasons as an elite player as a result. Lebron on the other hand, concentrates his efforts on flopping, a characteristic he shares with many of the top players today. He's less of a soldier and more of an actor.

Lebron will have the better career resume. But Larry will always be the superior player, possessing the psychological intangibles that lebron never had and cannot develop.

AIRMAR72
06-04-2014, 06:13 AM
Did I really just sit hear and hear Mark Jackson say "Lebron was better then Larry Bird"? If anyone knows about 80s and 90s basketball you would think it would be him. I often hear alot of these NBA analysts trying to hype up todays game, which is understandable because it is making money and popular as it has ever been. And trust me the athletes are far superior when it comes to speed and athleticism. Sports science and technology has evolved to where they have the best diets, medicines, and equipment to make a modern day athlete with the right NBA body, and right speed or whatever. To make the player they all look for in the NBA and NFL draft. But there is always that Russell Wilson guy that breaks that mold and doesn't fit the prototype, he has that thing that is missing. Yes todays athlete is superior on many stages. But look at the game. Look at 76 fouls on 3 point shots so far in the playoffs, look at all the turnovers, look at all the guys just letting players go by them, and blown assignments, the flopping. Todays game is no where near as intelligent, tough, or fundamental it was during this previous time period. Those mistakes would find you at the bottem of the bench, back then. Yes people had off games every once in awhile but it has been every night in these series. I truely believe as great a athlete Lebron is , and how physical he is with guys in the league in this era. He couldnt have been then. One of his weakness has always been toughness and Mental toughness. I think in 80s and 90s basketball he would have been more like a Jamal Mashburn, then the superstar he is today. I really think the Heat team of today would have suffered the losses that alot of great teams did to Jordan and the Bulls. I truely don't even see this team beating and more then likely getting swept by teams like the Cavs team that everyone remembers losing to the shot by Jordan, with great talents in Price, Nance, Daughtery. I see Daughtery dominating down low due to Miamis weak inside, and I see Price dominating both of Miami's one guards the entire series. No way they beat Stockton and Malone's Jazz, Birds Celtics, Magic's Lakers. Isiah's Pistons would drive Lebron insane, Drexler's Blazers I dont even know if they could beat the lower end teams like Wilkin's hawks. I could see Willis with his toughness and muscle just bullying these guys. I don't think basing what this guy is doing now, to one of the greatest eras of basketball, and a living Legend is fair. There are few guys in the league like Duncan who could have played as well as they do now then.
Yeah he is..athletic wise Bron much better player than Larry Bird

SLY WILLIAMS
06-04-2014, 12:03 PM
Mark Jackson makes lots of comments like that. He said Dirk was better than Larry as well. Barkley almost fell over laughing when he said that.

Let me break down my way of thinking. I see MJ, Bird, and Lebron all as great all time players. They all were great scorers who could rebound and pass well for their positions. You could argue statistics that one guy rebounded better or one guy had more steals but they were all great. All three of them should be flattered to be compared to each other. Where the greatness reaches yet another elite level is when I ask myself in must win game with 15 seconds left on the clock whose hands do I want the ball in? Larry's? Or Lebrons? I will not even answer that question. I think people that saw both play in their primes know the answer and in what order they would be chosen.

ManRam
06-04-2014, 12:32 PM
Mark Jackson makes lots of comments like that. He said Dirk was better than Larry as well. Barkley almost fell over laughing when he said that.

Let me break down my way of thinking. I see MJ, Bird, and Lebron all as great all time players. They all were great scorers who could rebound and pass well for their positions. You could argue statistics that one guy rebounded better or one guy had more steals but they were all great. All three of them should be flattered to be compared to each other. Where the greatness reaches yet another elite level is when I ask myself in must win game with 15 seconds left on the clock whose hands do I want the ball in? Larry's? Or Lebrons? I will not even answer that question. I think people that saw both play in their primes know the answer and in what order they would be chosen.

I got no problem with anyone saying Bird is hyper-clutch. Many think he's the "clutchest" player ever. He's certainly made a ton of big shots.

But the notion the LeBron James isn't is just foolish. I thought we were past that narrative, which was always misguided? I guess not. We've seen the numbers now...he makes these big shots at a higher clip than most all of the guys were perceive as being ultra-clutch, and his teams do tremendously well in those close-and-late situations too. He's posted some of the greatest playoff runs ever. He's had some of the greatest games ever in the playoffs. He's got 10 of the 100 highest game scores (b-r.com) in a playoff game ever...that's 1/10th of them!. Jordan has 16, just for reference. Kobe has 2 (both top-15 tho). And Bird? Just 2 as well.

Clutch is more than the last 15 seconds. Dismissing the other 47 minutes and 45 seconds is just so foolish.

Bird had some REALLY bad playoff runs too. Like, stuff that doesn't even compare to LeBron's worst individual efforts. He isn't this infallible being. They won the years he played great (statistically, 81, 84 and 86 were his best playoff season) and lost when he didn't (82, 80, 88, let alone his last two seasons). 88 was his best season ever IMO, and his play dropped off SOOOO much in the playoffs. We view LeBron's 2011 as a colossal individual choke. He still posted a higher PER and WS/48 that year than Larry ever did in the playoffs sans two seasons. Dismiss these "advanced stats" if you so please, but that's telling you something. He was more efficient scoring-wise that year than Bird was on average in the playoffs.

I don't know. Again, I have no problem saying Bird was more "clutch" based on our weird definition of "clutch". But to suggest the gap is so wide that you don't even need to say who you're picking, well...no way.

SLY WILLIAMS
06-04-2014, 12:43 PM
I got no problem with anyone saying Bird is hyper-clutch. Many think he's the "clutchest" player ever. He's certainly made a ton of big shots.

But the notion the LeBron James isn't is just foolish. I thought we were past that narrative, which was always misguided? I guess not. We've seen the numbers now...he makes these big shots at a higher clip than most all of the guys were perceive as being ultra-clutch, and his teams do tremendously well in those close-and-late situations too. He's posted some of the greatest playoff runs ever. He's had some of the greatest games ever in the playoffs. He's got 10 of the 100 highest game scores (b-r.com) in a playoff game ever...that's 1/10th of them!. Jordan has 16, just for reference. Kobe has 2 (both top-15 tho). And Bird? Just 2 as well.

Clutch is more than the last 15 seconds. Dismissing the other 47 minutes and 45 seconds is just so foolish.

Bird had some REALLY bad playoff runs too. Like, stuff that doesn't even compare to LeBron's worst individual efforts. He isn't this infallible being. They won the years he played great (statistically, 81, 84 and 86 were his best playoff season) and lost when he didn't (82, 80, 88, let alone his last two seasons). 88 was his best season ever IMO, and his play dropped off SOOOO much in the playoffs. We view LeBron's 2011 as a colossal individual choke. He still posted a higher PER and WS/48 that year than Larry ever did in the playoffs sans two seasons. Dismiss these "advanced stats" if you so please, but that's telling you something. He was more efficient scoring-wise that year than Bird was on average in the playoffs.

I don't know. Again, I have no problem saying Bird was more "clutch" based on our weird definition of "clutch". But to suggest the gap is so wide that you don't even need to say who you're picking, well...no way.

I'm not going to debate stats (or even the meaning of clutch) which can be spun in many ways for and against people. If in a must win game with 15 seconds on the clock you would like to have Lebron take the game deciding shot over Larry or MJ that would be totally fine. I just asked the question. I did not tell anyone how they have to answer it. You have a right to your opinion and to your choice.

mngopher35
06-04-2014, 12:45 PM
Regardless of longevity, there are certain benchmarks that lebron will never reach, which bird accomplished on a regular basis.

1. Bird had BACK TO BACK 50/40/90 seasons.
It is safe to say that lebron will never have a 50/40/90 season.

2. Bird had FOUR CONSECUTIVE SEASONS where he shot at least 49/40/88.

3. Bird shot at least 40% from 3 point range in SIX seasons.
Lebon has only 1 season shooting over 40% from 3 pt range in 11 seasons.

4. Bird led the LEAGUE in FT% 3 seasons, and shot over 90% in five seasons.
Lebon has ZERO seasons shooting even 80% much less 90% from the line.

Yet with all of these percentages you bring up you ignore their overall efficiency. When combining the 3 and looking at their True Shooting percentages Lebron's is better in the regular season and playoffs. Lebron has 4 years of greater than .600 TS% while Bird has 2 and Lebron's total for his career is higher as well. In the playoffs Lebron has had just 2 years under .540 TS% while Larry Bird has only had 3 years higher than that mark. All of this while Lebron also scored at a higher volume throughout as well in Regular season and Playoffs. Bird will never reach many of the numbers Lebron put up either.




5. Bird averaged 10 rpg for his career and averaged at least 10 rpg during his first six seasons, and barely missed the mark in his 7th season, averaging 9.8 rpg. His career peak is 11 rpg, despite being 40 lbs lighter and just 1" taller than lebron.

Bird played alongside two outstanding rebounders in Kevin Mchale and Robert Parish, yet still averaged double figure rebounds for his CAREER.

Lebron's peak is only 8 rpg, and his career average is nearly 3 rpg lower (7.2 vs 10.0), despite being almost the same height, having a superior vertical, bigger hands and a 45 lb. weight advantage.



6. Bird won his 3 titles in a much more competitive era, competing directly against the elite Sixers in the east, and of course against the absolutely stacked Lakers out west.

Lebron is competing against the pacers, a team which features a 7'2" center who regularly has zero rebound games, a crackhead guard in lance stephenson, and a pseudo superstar in george who can't even focus on basketball because of a paternity suit.

Well just pure rebounding numbers won't quite do justice because of the pace each play, but Bird is definitely the better rebounder all the way around. His total rebound percentage is 1.8 % higher throughout their careers (much higher when he played pf, similar when he was at SF).

As for the second part the Celtics went 1-2 vs. the 76ers from 1980-1982 winning one title the years they beat them. They also played the LAkers 3 times in the finals and went 1-2 as well. I will agree the Lakers were better than any team Heat have played but I think you might underestimate the Thunder and Spurs teams they have played as I would put them up there as far as competition. Heck they have been the underdogs in 2/3 meetings with those teams at this point.



7. Larry Legend is called Larry Legend because he is one of the game's great clutch players. He is one of the game's most fearless players: top 3 with Magic and Michael occupying the other spots.

Lebron would rather pass to Bosh, or Wade, or Ray Allen or Rashard Lewis, or, you get the picture.

Lebon will take the last shot, but he doesn't WANT to take the last shot, and he certainly does not NEED to take the last shot. Psychologically, he's very different from bird and magic and michael. He's not an alpha. He's a beta with a superior physique who shrinks from the spotlight in the biggest moments.

8. Larry was willing to sacrifice his body for his team. He probably lost 4, and perhaps 5 seasons as an elite player as a result. Lebron on the other hand, concentrates his efforts on flopping, a characteristic he shares with many of the top players today. He's less of a soldier and more of an actor.

Lebron will have the better career resume. But Larry will always be the superior player, possessing the psychological intangibles that lebron never had and cannot develop.

A lot of the remaining is subjective so I will leave it alone as no one will change your thoughts. Google top playoff performances in NBA history and many of the lists will have huge games from Lebron, and in many more than they have Bird listed (and in clutch timing). I am not saying that Bird didn't have more clutch moments or wasn't known as a clutch player, just that Lebron has had some huge games in big moments. He is definitely not the same as any other superstar but that doesn't necessarily make him worse.

Lebron will end up with the better career resume and many will also have him as the better all around player. You never touched on Defense with your post in which Lebron was definitely better. Add in the scoring advantage for Lebron (both volume and efficiency), the playmaking each had, and Bird's Rebounding to Lebron's defensive advantage I think there is certainly a case to be made for Lebron here. I think Bird has a case to make right now (although I have Lebron slightly ahead at this point) but your post didn't do a great job of arguing for him imo.

NYKNYGNYY
06-04-2014, 12:56 PM
Mj
Lebron

And I strongly dislike lebron I never got to see bird play so that's a notch against him but the way lebron dominates the leauge is just ridiculous... Maybe bird would be considered greater if he didn't have to play in the same time frame as magic ...

But I give it to lebron ... Like I stated never got to see bird play so im not the best observer , an older person would have a better observation. But some would say how lebron wouldn't be as good as he is if he played in they're era or whatever...

ManRam
06-04-2014, 01:18 PM
I'm not going to debate stats (or even the meaning of clutch) which can be spun in many ways for and against people. If in a must win game with 15 seconds on the clock you would like to have Lebron take the game deciding shot over Larry or MJ that would be totally fine. I just asked the question. I did not tell anyone how they have to answer it. You have a right to your opinion and to your choice.

I'm not sure who I'd pick. I'd like to see Larry's stats in those 15 seconds before I decide (not sure why we're fixating on such an arbitrary time of 15 seconds). I am not old enough to remember his prime. But these stats aren't controversial ones. It's shots attempted vs. shots made. Pretty damn cut and dry. And those stats look very solid from LeBron.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/58575/lebron-james-isnt-clutch-think-again


And even if the answer is "I'd rather have Larry taking the shot in the last 15 seconds" that doesn't mean he's the better player. Maybe I'd rather have the ball in LeBron's hands to make the best decision and find the best shot. Maybe I think LeBron's play in those first 47 minutes and 45 seconds is superior enough to render Bird's slight advantage in that tiny period of time pointless. I don't know. That's an incredibly silly way to decide who is the better player all time. There's so much more to it. I'd like Robert Horry taking the shot, but I'm not magically placing him higher than his superior peers because of that.

Chronz
06-04-2014, 01:45 PM
I'm not sure who I'd pick. I'd like to see Larry's stats in those 15 seconds before I decide (not sure why we're fixating on such an arbitrary time of 15 seconds). I am not old enough to remember his prime. But these stats aren't controversial ones. It's shots attempted vs. shots made. Pretty damn cut and dry. And those stats look very solid from LeBron.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/58575/lebron-james-isnt-clutch-think-again


And even if the answer is "I'd rather have Larry taking the shot in the last 15 seconds" that doesn't mean he's the better player. Maybe I'd rather have the ball in LeBron's hands to make the best decision and find the best shot. Maybe I think LeBron's play in those first 47 minutes and 45 seconds is superior enough to render Bird's slight advantage in that tiny period of time pointless. I don't know. That's an incredibly silly way to decide who is the better player all time. There's so much more to it. I'd like Robert Horry taking the shot, but I'm not magically placing him higher than his superior peers because of that.

Cmon bro, 1 final play, the last shot to determine who wins the championship, do you want Robert Horry or Karl Choker Malone? I rest my case..... Horry da goat

Tony_Starks
06-04-2014, 01:57 PM
Lots of subjective opinions here. Lots of stats that can be skewed one way or another. Lebron is always the stat guys favorite because all you have to do is pick up a stat sheet and say "oh he had a great game! Very efficient!"

This is where actually watching games matters more than sheer stats. Birds mental toughness was never in question from rookie to retirement. Lebron has 3 major chokes ( Spurs, Boston, Dallas) where he was literally scared looking like a deer in headlights. He actually looked that way the first few games of the Finals last year before snapping out of it and getting back to "shooting with confidence." ( his words)

That's from a guy what 10 years deep in the league on a very good team. And you're still scared to shoot? Sorry, can't just summarily dismiss that when I'm comparing him to Larry Legend....

Tony_Starks
06-04-2014, 02:04 PM
Cmon bro, 1 final play, the last shot to determine who wins the championship, do you want Robert Horry or Karl Choker Malone? I rest my case..... Horry da goat

Right because Larry Bird was a role player like Horry.

Not like he was the best player on the team or anything.....

TheIlladelph16
06-04-2014, 02:06 PM
LOL at the '07 Spurs series being a "choke"

ManRam
06-04-2014, 02:07 PM
Lots of subjective opinions here. Lots of stats that can be skewed one way or another. Lebron is always the stat guys favorite because all you have to do is pick up a stat sheet and say "oh he had a great game! Very efficient!"

This is where actually watching games matters more than sheer stats. Birds mental toughness was never in question from rookie to retirement. Lebron has 3 major chokes ( Spurs, Boston, Dallas) where he was literally scared looking like a deer in headlights. He actually looked that way the first few games of the Finals last year before snapping out of it and getting back to "shooting with confidence." ( his words)

That's from a guy what 10 years deep in the league on a very good team. And you're still scared to shoot? Sorry, can't just summarily dismiss that when I'm comparing him to Larry Legend....

If we're going by eye test, how old were you in 1982?


LeBron's a point-forward. He's the point guy most every time down. If it was John Stockton making the pass when the double team swarmed and a shooter was wide open, would anyone criticize him? No. LeBron's a tremendous passer and extremely unselfish. But it's a proven fact that hero ball is far less effective than any other type of offense that resembles "normal". And it all boils down to the obsession with the very last possession. Would people question LeBron's mental toughness in any other time in hugely important games. It seems like everyone, including guys who hate LeBron, expect him to take over in big games now. Because he does, with ridiculous frequency. Again, he's had far more HUGE playoff games than Bird did. Maybe he should be more selfish? Maybe he shouldn't? But just because he isn't Kobe or Jordan, and still tries to run a normal offense and is willing to kick it out to find a better shot...well, that doesn't mean he's a mental midget.

And the close-and-late shot thing has been debunked time and time again. People just fixate on the bad and forget the good to make their narratives work. Hell, Kobe misses 60%+ of his close-and-late shots...people MISS a lot of big shots. It happens. But LeBron makes a very high rate of those shots.


In the end, results matter and nothing else. Doesn't matter how you go about getting those results. If he looks something to you, but is still producing in the clutch, the "look" really doesn't matter. The production does.

http://www.libertyballers.com/2012/2/29/2832299/lebron-james-kobe-bryant-dwyane-wade-clutch-nba-playoffs-4th-quarter
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/58575/lebron-james-isnt-clutch-think-again
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time

There are misleading stats. There are bad stats. Then there are stats that show you shots taken in clutch time and shots made in clutch time, and there's NOTHING controversial about those when discussing "who do you want taking that last shot?"

SLY WILLIAMS
06-04-2014, 02:13 PM
I'm not sure who I'd pick. I'd like to see Larry's stats in those 15 seconds before I decide (not sure why we're fixating on such an arbitrary time of 15 seconds). I am not old enough to remember his prime. But these stats aren't controversial ones. It's shots attempted vs. shots made. Pretty damn cut and dry. And those stats look very solid from LeBron.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/58575/lebron-james-isnt-clutch-think-again


And even if the answer is "I'd rather have Larry taking the shot in the last 15 seconds" that doesn't mean he's the better player. Maybe I'd rather have the ball in LeBron's hands to make the best decision and find the best shot. Maybe I think LeBron's play in those first 47 minutes and 45 seconds is superior enough to render Bird's slight advantage in that tiny period of time pointless. I don't know. That's an incredibly silly way to decide who is the better player all time. There's so much more to it. I'd like Robert Horry taking the shot, but I'm not magically placing him higher than his superior peers because of that.

Sadly there are some experiences stats will never be able to tell the story of in my opinion. If you did not live through the Larry Bird era in his prime I can understand why you might have a different feeling than somebody that did. Robert Horry was not Larry Bird. Robert Horry was not Micheal Jordan. Horry made some clutch shots when he was open in some cases because better guys were being guarded. Robert Horry was not a guy that would go in to a huddle while a coach was drawing up the play and just say give me the ball and get out of the way. Robert Horry was not the guy with 2 seconds left that would make a game winning 3, have it waived off by a time out, come back and make it again. Robert Horry was not a guy that everyone in the building knew was getting the ball and would dare the other teams players to stop him. Robert Horry was not the kind of guy in a last second shot would walk up to the defender tell him exactly where he was going to shoot from and then do exactly that. Its like somebody could live through Woodstock or somebody can be told about it. Some things you have to live through to really grasp fully. I hated Larry Bird as a Knicks fan. I could not stand him. I rooted for every team in the league to beat him. It is only years later that I can acknowledge why he was "Larry Legend"

Chronz
06-04-2014, 02:18 PM
Lots of subjective opinions here. Lots of stats that can be skewed one way or another. Lebron is always the stat guys favorite because all you have to do is pick up a stat sheet and say "oh he had a great game! Very efficient!"

This is where actually watching games matters more than sheer stats. Birds mental toughness was never in question from rookie to retirement. Lebron has 3 major chokes ( Spurs, Boston, Dallas) where he was literally scared looking like a deer in headlights. He actually looked that way the first few games of the Finals last year before snapping out of it and getting back to "shooting with confidence." ( his words)

That's from a guy what 10 years deep in the league on a very good team. And you're still scared to shoot? Sorry, can't just summarily dismiss that when I'm comparing him to Larry Legend....
You do realize that Bird has had his share of poor shooting series and decided to focus on other ways to contribute, rather than just hoisting away without conscious, he actually won a title that way (though he didn't get MVP for it). Hes also been locked down hard on route to a defeat. Looking at their entire careers, Bird is only ahead because his career is already completely. I've mentioned zero stats and gone by what I've seen. But do you notice how the watching them play argument can work both ways, this is why stats are never irrelevant, production is real and it matters. When I see Bird fail to produce, he doesn't get it washed away because of some cheap psycho babble.

ManRam
06-04-2014, 02:21 PM
Sadly there are some experiences stats will never be able to tell the story of in my opinion. If you did not live through the Larry Bird era in his prime I can understand why you might have a different feeling than somebody that did. Robert Horry was not Larry Bird. Robert Horry was not Micheal Jordan. Horry made some clutch shots when he was open in some cases because better guys were being guarded. Robert Horry was not a guy that would go in to a huddle while a coach was drawing up the play and just say give me the ball and get out of the way. Robert Horry was not the guy with 2 seconds left that would make a game winning 3, have it waived off by a time out, come back and make it again. Robert Horry was not a guy that everyone in the building knew was getting the ball and would dare the other teams players to stop him. Robert Horry was not the kind of guy in a last second shot would walk up to the defender tell him exactly where he was going to shoot from and then do exactly that. Its like somebody could live through Woodstock or somebody can be told about it. Some things you have to live through to really grasp fully. I hated Larry Bird as a Knicks fan. I could not stand him. I rooted for every team in the league to beat him. It is only years later that I can acknowledge why he was "Larry Legend"

You said: "who would you want taking the shot with 15 seconds left".

How is shots attempted in the clutch vs. shots made in the clutch something at all controversial? Isn't that how you answer that question? I get why people hate stats, but this is black and white. There IS an answer to that question. You wanna know who are the best at making shots in the clutch...well, quantify and look at those shots in the clutch. Like I said, our minds play tricks on us. If there's a narrative we want to believe (say LeBron-related) our brains will selectively remember things (LeBron makes or misses) and fixate on those. That's the value of these stats. It removes our obvious and subconscious biases.

My point was not that Robert Horry is as good as those guys, it's that focusing on such a tiny and subjective period of time to distinguish which player is better all time is silly.


And again, my whole point is not that Bird isn't the guy you take...because I don't know what the numbers look like (clutch shots taken vs. clutch shots made) nor was I old enough to ever view it for myself. My only point was: you're severely underrating LeBron by suggesting he is a horrid clutch performer. And refusing to even acknowledge the black and white stats on the matter shows that you probably just don't want to think otherwise.

It's fine if you dismiss PER, Win Shares, TS%, or whatever "advanced" stat...or even basic stats. But this "clutch" stuff is pretty straight forward...at least how you're phrasing it (because "clutch" is NOT straight forward). You're talking shots under 15 seconds. When taking such shots you either make them or you don't. If you make a higher percentage than someone else, it's probably fair to say that you do better at shooting in the clutch. No?

Tony_Starks
06-04-2014, 02:30 PM
If we're going by eye test, how old were you in 1982?


LeBron's a point-forward. He's the point guy most every time down. If it was John Stockton making the pass when the double team swarmed and a shooter was wide open, would anyone criticize him? No. LeBron's a tremendous passer and extremely unselfish. But it's a proven fact that hero ball is far less effective than any other type of offense that resembles "normal". And it all boils down to the obsession with the very last possession. Would people question LeBron's mental toughness in any other time in hugely important games. It seems like everyone, including guys who hate LeBron, expect him to take over in big games now. Because he does, with ridiculous frequency. Again, he's had far more HUGE playoff games than Bird did. Maybe he should be more selfish? Maybe he shouldn't? But just because he isn't Kobe or Jordan, and still tries to run a normal offense and is willing to kick it out to find a better shot...well, that doesn't mean he's a mental midget.

And the close-and-late shot thing has been debunked time and time again. People just fixate on the bad and forget the good to make their narratives work. Hell, Kobe misses 60%+ of his close-and-late shots...people MISS a lot of big shots. It happens. But LeBron makes a very high rate of those shots.


In the end, results matter and nothing else. Doesn't matter how you go about getting those results. If he looks something to you, but is still producing in the clutch, the "look" really doesn't matter. The production does.

http://www.libertyballers.com/2012/2/29/2832299/lebron-james-kobe-bryant-dwyane-wade-clutch-nba-playoffs-4th-quarter
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/58575/lebron-james-isnt-clutch-think-again
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time

There are misleading stats. There are bad stats. Then there are stats that show you shots taken in clutch time and shots made in clutch time, and there's NOTHING controversial about those when discussing "who do you want taking that last shot?"

For clarity I'm not obsessed with "last shot." I'm talking about Boston, Dallas, and the Spurs using a strategy of we're just going to back off and dare this guy to shoot. It completely exposed him in the Spurs sweep to the extent people were calling him out on it, and when Dallas did it he was affected to the point where he basically stopped shooting in the 4th. The Spurs actually almost got away with it AGAIN last year. That would never happen to Bird.

That's where mental toughness comes in. The all time greats do whatever it takes. People just look at Magics passing but if you tried to Lebron him he had no problem dropping 40 on you. People look at Birds shooting but if you tried to take away his shooting he had no problem dropping passes left and right and crashing boards. Again all game long, not just last 15 seconds.

IMO players like Bird and Magic were superior to him in that regard.

ManRam
06-04-2014, 02:37 PM
For clarity I'm not obsessed with "last shot." I'm talking about Boston, Dallas, and the Spurs using a strategy of we're just going to back off and dare this guy to shoot. It completely exposed him in the Spurs sweep to the extent people were calling him out on it, and when Dallas did it he was affected to the point where he basically stopped shooting in the 4th. The Spurs actually almost got away with it AGAIN last year. That would never happen to Bird.

That's where mental toughness comes in. The all time greats do whatever it takes. People just look at Magics passing but if you tried to Lebron him he had no problem dropping 40 on you. People look at Birds shooting but if you tried to take away his shooting he had no problem dropping passes left and right and crashing boards. Again all game long, not just last 15 seconds.

IMO players like Bird and Magic were superior to him in that regard.

So how do you explain all those series/years where Bird's play dropped off more compared to his regular season play more than LeBron's ever has, even in his "choke" years? Again, Bird had some BAD playoff runs...but no one fixates on them any more. Maybe he didn't look a certain way (I can't verify that, I'm not sure you are old enough to either) but the results are all that matter.

Oh, and per you Magic point. He dropped 40+ points in the playoffs 4 times. LeBron's done it 12 times. Maybe not a good example. :shrug:

SLY WILLIAMS
06-04-2014, 02:39 PM
You said: "who would you want taking the shot with 15 seconds left".

How is shots attempted in the clutch vs. shots made in the clutch something at all controversial? Isn't that how you answer that question? I get why people hate stats, but this is black and white. There IS an answer to that question. You wanna know who are the best at making shots in the clutch...well, quantify and look at those shots in the clutch. Like I said, our minds play tricks on us. If there's a narrative we want to believe (say LeBron-related) our brains will selectively remember things (LeBron makes or misses) and fixate on those. That's the value of these stats. It removes our obvious and subconscious biases.

My point was not that Robert Horry is as good as those guys, it's that focusing on such a tiny and subjective period of time to distinguish which player is better all time is silly.


And again, my whole point is not that Bird isn't the guy you take...because I don't know what the numbers look like (clutch shots taken vs. clutch shots made) nor was I old enough to ever view it for myself. My only point was: you're severely underrating LeBron by suggesting he is a horrid clutch performer. And refusing to even acknowledge the black and white stats on the matter shows that you probably just don't want to think otherwise.

It's fine if you dismiss PER, Win Shares, TS%, or whatever "advanced" stat...or even basic stats. But this "clutch" stuff is pretty straight forward...at least how you're phrasing it (because "clutch" is NOT straight forward). You're talking shots under 15 seconds. When taking such shots you either make them or you don't. If you make a higher percentage than someone else, it's probably fair to say that you do better at shooting in the clutch. No?


I was only explaining the difference between the game closing shots that Bird made and the shots Horry made. If you think Lebron is better in late game crucial situations that is fine. We do not have to agree.

Here is a video of other NBA players and coaches discussing some of Birds late game traits I was referring to. Lebron is a great player. One of the greatest players ever. I still would rather have Larry over Lebron late in games in crucial situations. My guess is a majority of the NBA players (over 35 years old) and coaches would do the same.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Rg1sFMxnbM

ManRam
06-04-2014, 02:49 PM
I was only explaining the difference between the game closing shots that Bird made and the shots Horry made. If you think Lebron is better in late game crucial situations that is fine. We do not have to agree.

Here is a video of other NBA players and coaches discussing some of Birds late game traits I was referring to. Lebron is a great player. One of the greatest players ever. I still would rather have Larry over Lebron late in games in crucial situations. My guess is a majority of the NBA players (over 35 years old) and coaches would do the same.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Rg1sFMxnbM

I've never said that I'd take LeBron over Bird for the last shot. I've made it perfectly clear that my only point is that I don't think the general consensus about LeBron's futility in clutch situations has ever been accurate...and I get the impression you fall a tad bit into that. You implied that it should be obvious. I'm implying that I don't think so.

I will say, I'd rather have LeBron over Bird for a whole season, an entire game, an entire playoff run, or whatever. The last shot? IDK. Bird's a better shooter. Maybe I'd take him in that very specific situation.

Thanks for the vid. I'll watch it...but I'm always hesitant to let my opinion be formed by word of mouth. When you sit someone down to talk about someone, most will be overly laudatory naturally. I'd rather see the footage. I'd rather see the stats (for something as cut and dry as shots attempted vs. shots made). I'd rather form my own opinion in as unbiased of a manner as possible.

Like, how can you say this guy doesn't have killer instinct? Yeah, he's had three bad playoff series. One of them he looked quite bummed. But who hasn't?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDCD-XCR5fs

SLY WILLIAMS
06-04-2014, 02:59 PM
I've never said that I'd take LeBron over Bird for the last shot. I've made it perfectly clear that my only point is that I don't think the general consensus about LeBron's futility in clutch situations has ever been accurate...and I get the impression you fall a tad bit into that. You implied that it should be obvious. I'm implying that I don't think so.

I will say, I'd rather have LeBron over Bird for a whole season, an entire game, an entire playoff run, or whatever. The last shot? IDK. Bird's a better shooter. Maybe I'd take him in that very specific situation.

Thanks for the vid. I'll watch it...but I'm always hesitant to let my opinion be formed by word of mouth. When you sit someone down to talk about someone, most will be overly laudatory naturally. I'd rather see the footage. I'd rather see the stats (for something as cut and dry as shots attempted vs. shots made). I'd rather form my own opinion in as unbiased of a manner as possible.

Like, how can you say this guy doesn't have killer instinct? Yeah, he's had three bad playoff series. One of them he looked quite bummed. But who hasn't?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDCD-XCR5fs

It is not all or nothing for me. It is not Larry Bird is a god and Lebron is a scrub or Lebron is a god and Larry is a scrub overall or in late game situations. I think Lebron has had his share of very good late game moments but I do not think his mental toughness is on the same level. I would love to say it was because I literally hated Bird. In some ways Lebron is better than Larry. In some ways Larry is better than Lebron. I'm just saying why Larry scared me to death in late game situations. He reminded me of a zombie that just would not die. In regards mental toughness and confidence the only guy I ever saw come close to Larry was MJ but I think Larry would even out trash talk MJ. You are right I'm not talking about every stat. I'm not even speaking about the first 45 minutes of games. I was only talking about the end of games. You have to understand I saw guys like Dominque, Worthy, etc play unreal great against Larry BUT when the game was going to be decided the guy just would not die. It drove me nuts.

Chronz
06-04-2014, 03:16 PM
For clarity I'm not obsessed with "last shot." I'm talking about Boston, Dallas, and the Spurs using a strategy of we're just going to back off and dare this guy to shoot. It completely exposed him in the Spurs sweep to the extent people were calling him out on it, and when Dallas did it he was affected to the point where he basically stopped shooting in the 4th. The Spurs actually almost got away with it AGAIN last year. That would never happen to Bird.

That's where mental toughness comes in. The all time greats do whatever it takes. People just look at Magics passing but if you tried to Lebron him he had no problem dropping 40 on you. People look at Birds shooting but if you tried to take away his shooting he had no problem dropping passes left and right and crashing boards. Again all game long, not just last 15 seconds.

IMO players like Bird and Magic were superior to him in that regard.

LOL, teams have played Magic the same way and he couldn't just shoot his way to victory at his whim. They are different players though so its an odd comparison to make, still, IIRC he missed like 90% of his unguarded 3's in the Finals vs the Bulls, you WANTED Magic to shoot his ugly set shot, he got better at it with age, but you could get away with defending him certain ways, which gets to my bigger point, every player can be locked down if the circumstances are right so whats the point?
Bird was clamped down on harder than Bron ever was. The difference is, you need to build a wall at the rim to contain Bron, you couldn't do that as well in the soft 80's. So Birds struggles given this fact is abit too unsettling for me, like Bill Simmons said, teams just locked his country *** down sometimes.

*Silver&Black*
06-04-2014, 10:32 PM
Give me Bird over Lebron. Best SF.

amos1er
06-04-2014, 11:24 PM
Because it is a strength, especially in an era where you cant wall off the rim without trapping first.

I see what you mean, but it all depends on the system one is running. Lebron is able to be successful in an era where you really don't need a dominant big to win. That and there is a lack of dominant bigs in todays NBA. Lebron has always been surrounded by three point specialists, so I don't know if that would be possible in the 90's... Especially 80's while still being a contender.



Whatever difference you think we agree on, it wouldn't change my opinion that zones are more influential in this case. With a brute like Bron, hand checking isn't the difference maker that a wall of defenders is. Getting by the initial defender has never been a problem for premier stars, its the help they worry about, and in an era where you have to actually wait for the player to get the ball before sending help, its alil too late to contain a physical specimen like Bron.


Lebron isn't really renowned for his play off the ball, nor his iso game. I don't really see the absence of a zone defense really being all that dramatic to him. If he were a big and mostly played in the post like Hakeem (as you mentioned earlier) I could see this being a problem for him. Lebron usually brings the ball up the court like a point guard, so the player usually begins and ends with him touching it anyways. The extra possessions might help his stats a bit more, but would also lead to more fatigue over the years which would hurt his longevity. The extra possessions in now way would make him more or less likely to win.

The combination of hand checking and softer rules would make guys like Jordan and Bird get at least 25% more FT's per game, which would likely help their ppg and TS%. Just imagine a team trying to implement the "Jordan Rules" on Lebron in the modern era... Their entire starting five would be ejected before the first quarter ended. That and Bird and Jordan are some of the most mentally tough players the NBA has ever seen... Lebron is certainly no match for them in this regard. It is only as of late that Lebron has gained a respectable fortitude of mental toughness and even still, he is nothing compared to the tougher guys of the previous eras. 2011 Lebron folded under less pressure and competition then guys like Bird and Jordan ever faced. If the physicality was anything like the 80's and 90's, imagine much worse his choking would have been.


LMFAO. Nah, the soft/free flowing 80's were a slashers dream, imagine not having to face as many half court possessions against inferior athletes who cant even position themselves freely. Game over, its why you had twigs like Alex English carving up defenses in transition. In the right system, I could see Bron DESTROYING the soft 80's. The 90's are more physical and they started allowing some semblance of zone defense to make it harder, but Im sure you would see Bron's coach *****ing about teams loading up illegally just the same.

Soft 80's??? LOL!!!

He would be laughed out of the league for flopping long before he ever won a ring.

Again, it depends on the system that he would have ran. In a Showtime Lakers system, he might have been able to flourish, but if he ever got close lined like Rambis, I'm not sure how he would have been able to mentally adjust. He had to sit out for cramps and an injured pinky. Not to mention he is one of the biggest floppers and whiners to the refs the league has ever seen. I just can't see a guy like that being successful in an era where one had to draw significantly more contact to get calls and couldn't get away with flopping.

Even the Showtime Lakers had a dominant big... Lebron would not be able to get away with winning a title on one of the worst rebounding teams in the NBA in the 80's or 90's and thats a fact. As a result, his rebounding stats would lower by like 2 per game and without the barrage of three point snipers he currently has, his assist totals would take a hit as well. Then you wouldn't be singing his statistical praises like you do now and his lack of iso and off the ball game would have him even lower in comparison to guys like Jordan and Bird both statistically and in terms of winning.


Whatever the case, its unreasonable to assume it would be a profound difference when its far more likely the fast break game would be more likely to help a guy like Bron.

Again, how many of those fast break teams won championships while at the same time being at the bottom of the league in rebounding.

amos1er
06-04-2014, 11:26 PM
Lots of subjective opinions here. Lots of stats that can be skewed one way or another. Lebron is always the stat guys favorite because all you have to do is pick up a stat sheet and say "oh he had a great game! Very efficient!"

This is where actually watching games matters more than sheer stats. Birds mental toughness was never in question from rookie to retirement. Lebron has 3 major chokes ( Spurs, Boston, Dallas) where he was literally scared looking like a deer in headlights. He actually looked that way the first few games of the Finals last year before snapping out of it and getting back to "shooting with confidence." ( his words)

That's from a guy what 10 years deep in the league on a very good team. And you're still scared to shoot? Sorry, can't just summarily dismiss that when I'm comparing him to Larry Legend....

Wow. This is easily the best post in the thread IMO. Nicely done.

Hawkeye15
06-05-2014, 12:13 AM
do people really think the 80s was tough? I mean defensively?

lawrule
06-05-2014, 12:45 AM
Conversely, you make no case at all for lebron. You don't even attempt it.

As far as bird's scoring, it must be understood in the context of how many great scorers the celtics had: with mchale and parish both legitimate no. 1 options. Ainge was an accomplished shooter and even DJ regularly averaged 15 ppg, and averaged over 13 fga for several seasons.

In other words, Bird was nowhere near as ball dominant as lebron has been throughout his career. He was the entire offense for cleveland, and even in miami, wade has basically been a part time player, and I have no idea what bosh is doing most of the time. This is lebron's team and he still won't accept the mantle of team leader.

Bird's overall defense was very good. Of course he doesn't have the overall athleticism that lebron has, but with his limited physical skillset (by nba standards) he was at least very good. He was excellent at playing passing lanes and was an excellent defender within a team context.

His spg and bpg averages are essentially identical to lebron's, again, with a huge deficit in athleticism. Factor in bird's rebounding, and the two are not far off at all.

I think it's cowardly to ignore the psychology of the two players. Lebron could not lead a team by himself. That's why he abandoned the cavs and formed a "superteam" predicting 7 championships after stacking the talent base in his favor. He could not handle the role of team alpha in cle. He still can't in mia.

Even with Wade relegated to a part time player role and Bosh deferring to everyone on the team, Lebron is still reluctant to take the lead. He's still not willing to take the last second shot.

And let's be honest here: a chris bosh non call last season is what decided the series.

In other words, lebron DOES NOT HAVE A SINGLE CLEARLY DECISIVE CHAMPIONSHIP VICTORY.

1. his first title came in a strke shortened season with many teams in turmoil and many players unprepared to play.

2. his second title is a dubious feat with the non-call against bosh: clearly a foul, and obviously so as it's been a league wide mandate to call fouls if a player is not allowed to land this season.

So, there you have it: two ASTERISK "championships" for lebron. He's building a resume but if you examine how he's put accomplishment to paper, something smells very fishy.


Yet with all of these percentages you bring up you ignore their overall efficiency. When combining the 3 and looking at their True Shooting percentages Lebron's is better in the regular season and playoffs. Lebron has 4 years of greater than .600 TS% while Bird has 2 and Lebron's total for his career is higher as well. In the playoffs Lebron has had just 2 years under .540 TS% while Larry Bird has only had 3 years higher than that mark. All of this while Lebron also scored at a higher volume throughout as well in Regular season and Playoffs. Bird will never reach many of the numbers Lebron put up either.





Well just pure rebounding numbers won't quite do justice because of the pace each play, but Bird is definitely the better rebounder all the way around. His total rebound percentage is 1.8 % higher throughout their careers (much higher when he played pf, similar when he was at SF).

As for the second part the Celtics went 1-2 vs. the 76ers from 1980-1982 winning one title the years they beat them. They also played the LAkers 3 times in the finals and went 1-2 as well. I will agree the Lakers were better than any team Heat have played but I think you might underestimate the Thunder and Spurs teams they have played as I would put them up there as far as competition. Heck they have been the underdogs in 2/3 meetings with those teams at this point.




A lot of the remaining is subjective so I will leave it alone as no one will change your thoughts. Google top playoff performances in NBA history and many of the lists will have huge games from Lebron, and in many more than they have Bird listed (and in clutch timing). I am not saying that Bird didn't have more clutch moments or wasn't known as a clutch player, just that Lebron has had some huge games in big moments. He is definitely not the same as any other superstar but that doesn't necessarily make him worse.

Lebron will end up with the better career resume and many will also have him as the better all around player. You never touched on Defense with your post in which Lebron was definitely better. Add in the scoring advantage for Lebron (both volume and efficiency), the playmaking each had, and Bird's Rebounding to Lebron's defensive advantage I think there is certainly a case to be made for Lebron here. I think Bird has a case to make right now (although I have Lebron slightly ahead at this point) but your post didn't do a great job of arguing for him imo.

Hawkeye15
06-05-2014, 12:50 AM
Conversely, you make no case at all for lebron. You don't even attempt it.

Bird's overall defense was very good to excellent. Of course he doesn't have the overall athleticism that lebron has, but with his limited physical skillset (by nba standards) he was at least very good. He was excellent at playing passing lanes and was an excellent defender within a team context.

His spg and bpg averages are essentially identical to lebron's, again, with a huge deficit in athleticism. Factor in bird's rebounding, and the two are not far off at all.

I think it's cowardly to ignore the psychology of the two players. Lebron could not lead a team by himself. That's why he abandoned the cavs and formed a "superteam" predicting 7 championships after stacking the talent base in his favor.

Even with Wade relegated to a part time player role and Bosh deferring to everyone on the team, Lebron is still reluctant to take the lead. He's still not willing to take the last second shot.

And let's be honest here: a chris bosh non call last season is what decided the series.

In other words, lebron DOES NOT HAVE A SINGLE CLEARLY DECISIVE CHAMPIONSHIP VICTORY.

1. his first title came in a strke shortened season with many teams in turmoil and many players unprepared to play.

2. his second title is a dubious feat with the non-call against bosh: clearly a foul, and obviously so as it's been a league wide mandate to call fouls if a player is not allowed to land this season.

So, there you have it: two ASTERISK "championships" for lebron. He's building a resume but if you examine how he's put accomplishment to paper, something smells very fishy.

so, do you totally ignore that Bird was given multiple HOF'ers in their prime to play along side of?

I think the whole, "LeBron couldn't win in Cleveland" is pure b.s. Bird, Jordan, Shaq, Magic, and anyone else you can come up with wouldn't have won **** with that roster support.

lawrule
06-05-2014, 12:53 AM
Read my post above. Bird's scoring accomplishments are all the more notable given the number of great scorers he played alongside.

Also, you "totally ignore" that bird played in an era with 23 teams, not 30, meaning that Bird competed against a number of "superteams" which were quite common in that era. Bird had better support compared to Lebron, but also faced superior competition. It evens out, bro.

You mad?


so, do you totally ignore that Bird was given multiple HOF'ers in their prime to play along side of?

I think the whole, "LeBron couldn't win in Cleveland" is pure b.s. Bird, Jordan, Shaq, Magic, and anyone else you can come up with wouldn't have won **** with that roster support.

mngopher35
06-05-2014, 12:56 AM
Conversely, you make no case at all for lebron. You don't even attempt it.

Bird's overall defense was very good to excellent. Of course he doesn't have the overall athleticism that lebron has, but with his limited physical skillset (by nba standards) he was at least very good. He was excellent at playing passing lanes and was an excellent defender within a team context.

His spg and bpg averages are essentially identical to lebron's, again, with a huge deficit in athleticism. Factor in bird's rebounding, and the two are not far off at all.

I think it's cowardly to ignore the psychology of the two players. Lebron could not lead a team by himself. That's why he abandoned the cavs and formed a "superteam" predicting 7 championships after stacking the talent base in his favor.

Even with Wade relegated to a part time player role and Bosh deferring to everyone on the team, Lebron is still reluctant to take the lead. He's still not willing to take the last second shot.

And let's be honest here: a chris bosh non call last season is what decided the series.

In other words, lebron DOES NOT HAVE A SINGLE CLEARLY DECISIVE CHAMPIONSHIP VICTORY.

1. his first title came in a strke shortened season with many teams in turmoil and many players unprepared to play.

2. his second title is a dubious feat with the non-call against bosh: clearly a foul, and obviously so as it's been a league wide mandate to call fouls if a player is not allowed to land this season.

So, there you have it: two ASTERISK "championships" for lebron. He's building a resume but if you examine how he's put accomplishment to paper, something smells very fishy.

I made my point in an earlier post this thread, I was just calling out your reasons. Lebron has passed Bird because he has a better prime and has now matched the accolades and almost longevity. He was the better scorer (both with more volume and efficiency), slightly better playmaker (although Birds passing is probably better too), Bird has Rebounding, James has defense. This is my thoughts though and I am open to discussion since it is pretty close imo. Look if you have to questions a title due to a shortened season we can be done. Playoffs are the same, winner take all.

AsianSensation
06-05-2014, 01:00 AM
This Lebron hype has become nauseating. We're talking about a player that promised the Cavs a title, then bolts to join a finals MVP and fellow top 3 player, along with a top 10 player to boot. We're talking about a player that had one of the biggest choke jobs in the history of the NBA in the 2011 finals. We're talking about a player that did everything he could in the last two minutes of game 6 last year to once again choke the finals away if not for a Ray Allen three. We're talking about a player that chased titles, in his prime, on the backs of the most stacked roster in NBA history relative to each era and the talent in the league at the time. That decision showed us what we already knew, Lebron James is a beta male that is hyped as an alpha male. Stat padding and protecting percentages may get past the casual fan, but it doesn't get by me.

No damn way is he better than Bird. No damn way is he better than Magic. No damn way is he better than Duncan. No damn way is he better than Hakeem. No damn way is he better than Kobe. No damn way is he better than Shaq. No damn way is he better than Kareem.

And don't do dare bring up Jordan in this conversation. Don't even think it. Go to bed.

sens#11fan
06-05-2014, 01:19 AM
My heart tells me Larry is better, but my eyes tell me Lebron is better. Other than scoring Lebron does virtually everything else better.

lawrule
06-05-2014, 02:07 AM
This is a joke. Lebron has two EXTREMELY QUESTIONABLE "titles." As I said before, a "championship" in a season when every team in the assoc was simply scrambling to assemble rosters is just a joke. The second "championship" is just as sketchy with a very questionable no-call against Bosh. A no-call so egregious the league has spent an entire season focusing on this type of call in particular.

Bird is a far better shooter in every respect, a superior rebounder, a superior passer and was an excellent defender, with numerous clutch defensive plays in the most important moments. Bird is a superior clutch player on offense and defense.

Lebron meanwhile, has compiled efficiency stats based upon:

a. bullying much smaller, weaker and physically inferior opponents in the post and in the paint.
b. traveling so often, with so many additional steps the league might as well just let him forego dribbling altogether
c. in a conference so weak it is literally a second D league.

Lebron is compiling amazing numbers, BUT in an extremely talent-diluted era. He has zero competition in the east at this point. The pacers are a very mediocre team, just lucky enough to be decent in a conference which is a laughingstock. Lance S. is emotionally unstable. Hibbert can't rebound or score. A 7'2" guy with 0 rebound games is a joke. Paul George is distracted by his paternity suit and has been extremely inconsistent. The team can't score. Their bench is weak. And this is the Heat's STRONGEST competition. A team with a bum for a center and 2 guys who are pseudo-superstars.

Keep failin man.

JVG noted that stats in games with 30 point leads "shouldn't count" because guys have stopped trying. In that vein, lebron's incredible stats should take into account the laughable caliber of competition he faces in the east. It should also take into account how much weaker teams are now because there are 7 extra teams.

Lebron is a great player. But he is also extremely fortunate to be playing in an era where he has no competition getting to the finals. His accomplishments matter less because he engineered, conpsired if you will, to create a superteam. And his finals victories are forever tainted by a condensed, chaotic season, and a 2nd "title" where the officiating decided the outcome of one game, and hence the series.


I made my point in an earlier post this thread, I was just calling out your reasons. Lebron has passed Bird because he has a better prime and has now matched the accolades and almost longevity. He was the better scorer (both with more volume and efficiency), slightly better playmaker (although Birds passing is probably better too), Bird has Rebounding, James has defense. This is my thoughts though and I am open to discussion since it is pretty close imo. Look if you have to questions a title due to a shortened season we can be done. Playoffs are the same, winner take all.

lawrule
06-05-2014, 02:14 AM
Fail.

Bird is the better shooter in every respect, a better passer, a better rebounder, and a superior player in the clutch on both offense and defense.

Lebron is better at scoring in the post, utilizing his 50 lb. weight advantage against small forwards, or driving into the paint where he is allowed to take 4 or 5 steps without ever getting called for traveling.

Not to mention that the EC is a pathetic joke of a conference.

Put Lebron into a time machine against the trash talking celtics or the pistons bad boys and watch lebron urinate his shorts and cry like a baby at the "rough treatment."

Bill Laimbeer, Rick Mahorn and Rodman would step on lebron's throat if he tried his idiotic flopping antics against them.


My heart tells me Larry is better, but my eyes tell me Lebron is better. Other than scoring Lebron does virtually everything else better.

mngopher35
06-05-2014, 03:42 AM
You are clearly letting bias form a lot of your opinion, as shown with your "arguments". We will have to just agree to disagree.

lawrule
06-05-2014, 03:53 AM
You are clearly letting bias form a lot of your opinion, as shown with your "arguments". We will have to just agree to disagree.

"Bias" is a not a subject.

"A lot" is plural, "opinion" is singular.

I didn't agree to disagree. Bird was the superior player. The truth hurts. Want a cookie?

mngopher35
06-05-2014, 04:08 AM
"Bias" is a not a subject.

"A lot" is plural, "opinion" is singular.

I didn't agree to disagree. Bird was the superior player. The truth hurts. Want a cookie?

Not sure what the jibber jabber is about but your not going to make me "mad" as you asked Hawkeye.

That is fine, you can have that opinion. Anyone who needs to use "urinate his shorts and cry like a baby" "stomping on his throat" and going on to discrediting a ring for a lockout shortened season (with full playoffs) and another for some other reason doesn't want an actual response. If you have anything to add to the discussion to make someone maybe reconsider go for it, but otherwise I feel we would be wasting each others time.

Most people realize what Lebron and Bird have done and have their own opinion on it. We each have ours and neither of us will change the others mind.

amos1er
06-05-2014, 07:04 AM
This Lebron hype has become nauseating. We're talking about a player that promised the Cavs a title, then bolts to join a finals MVP and fellow top 3 player, along with a top 10 player to boot. We're talking about a player that had one of the biggest choke jobs in the history of the NBA in the 2011 finals. We're talking about a player that did everything he could in the last two minutes of game 6 last year to once again choke the finals away if not for a Ray Allen three. We're talking about a player that chased titles, in his prime, on the backs of the most stacked roster in NBA history relative to each era and the talent in the league at the time. That decision showed us what we already knew, Lebron James is a beta male that is hyped as an alpha male. Stat padding and protecting percentages may get past the casual fan, but it doesn't get by me.

No damn way is he better than Bird. No damn way is he better than Magic. No damn way is he better than Duncan. No damn way is he better than Hakeem. No damn way is he better than Kobe. No damn way is he better than Shaq. No damn way is he better than Kareem.

And don't do dare bring up Jordan in this conversation. Don't even think it. Go to bed.

Wow!!! Awesome post. This site needs more posters like you!!! Quite a breath of fresh air from all the Lebron worshiping we are all used to. Keep on posting bro!!!

amos1er
06-05-2014, 07:07 AM
Conversely, you make no case at all for lebron. You don't even attempt it.

As far as bird's scoring, it must be understood in the context of how many great scorers the celtics had: with mchale and parish both legitimate no. 1 options. Ainge was an accomplished shooter and even DJ regularly averaged 15 ppg, and averaged over 13 fga for several seasons.

In other words, Bird was nowhere near as ball dominant as lebron has been throughout his career. He was the entire offense for cleveland, and even in miami, wade has basically been a part time player, and I have no idea what bosh is doing most of the time. This is lebron's team and he still won't accept the mantle of team leader.

Bird's overall defense was very good. Of course he doesn't have the overall athleticism that lebron has, but with his limited physical skillset (by nba standards) he was at least very good. He was excellent at playing passing lanes and was an excellent defender within a team context.

His spg and bpg averages are essentially identical to lebron's, again, with a huge deficit in athleticism. Factor in bird's rebounding, and the two are not far off at all.

I think it's cowardly to ignore the psychology of the two players. Lebron could not lead a team by himself. That's why he abandoned the cavs and formed a "superteam" predicting 7 championships after stacking the talent base in his favor. He could not handle the role of team alpha in cle. He still can't in mia.

Even with Wade relegated to a part time player role and Bosh deferring to everyone on the team, Lebron is still reluctant to take the lead. He's still not willing to take the last second shot.

And let's be honest here: a chris bosh non call last season is what decided the series.

In other words, lebron DOES NOT HAVE A SINGLE CLEARLY DECISIVE CHAMPIONSHIP VICTORY.

1. his first title came in a strke shortened season with many teams in turmoil and many players unprepared to play.

2. his second title is a dubious feat with the non-call against bosh: clearly a foul, and obviously so as it's been a league wide mandate to call fouls if a player is not allowed to land this season.

So, there you have it: two ASTERISK "championships" for lebron. He's building a resume but if you examine how he's put accomplishment to paper, something smells very fishy.

Another great new poster!!! Keep it coming. Also Kudos on bringing up the fact that Larry was still an elite scorer despite having great scorers around him. A true alpha male unlike Lebron who turned Bosh (a top ten player in the NBA) into a taller version of Shane Battier and Wade into a Penny to his Inspector Gadget. Even still people honestly try to convince others that he somehow makes his teammates better. It is the other way around for sure. Some very great points that I have not touched on through all my rants. Some very fine work indeed!!!

amos1er
06-05-2014, 07:14 AM
Not sure what the jibber jabber is about but your not going to make me "mad" as you asked Hawkeye.

That is fine, you can have that opinion. Anyone who needs to use "urinate his shorts and cry like a baby" "stomping on his throat" and going on to discrediting a ring for a lockout shortened season (with full playoffs) and another for some other reason doesn't want an actual response. If you have anything to add to the discussion to make someone maybe reconsider go for it, but otherwise I feel we would be wasting each others time.

Most people realize what Lebron and Bird have done and have their own opinion on it. We each have ours and neither of us will change the others mind.

I would use the fact that the Spurs were completely hosed by the refs in game 6 of the 2012 WCF as more of an asterisk than a lockout season personally... But thats just me. Lebron never had to face the best team in the West (without HCA like he had in 2013) that season due to some very questionable officiating... Then the next year when he had to face them, Allen saved Lebron's arse as well as a blatant no-call on Bosh at the end of OT. karma is a ***** and I'm pulling for the Spurs to pull this off because they truly deserve it after getting ****ed in *** the past two years.

amos1er
06-05-2014, 07:20 AM
This is a joke. Lebron has two EXTREMELY QUESTIONABLE "titles." As I said before, a "championship" in a season when every team in the assoc was simply scrambling to assemble rosters is just a joke. The second "championship" is just as sketchy with a very questionable no-call against Bosh. A no-call so egregious the league has spent an entire season focusing on this type of call in particular.

Bird is a far better shooter in every respect, a superior rebounder, a superior passer and was an excellent defender, with numerous clutch defensive plays in the most important moments. Bird is a superior clutch player on offense and defense.

Lebron meanwhile, has compiled efficiency stats based upon:

a. bullying much smaller, weaker and physically inferior opponents in the post and in the paint.
b. traveling so often, with so many additional steps the league might as well just let him forego dribbling altogether
c. in a conference so weak it is literally a second D league.

Lebron is compiling amazing numbers, BUT in an extremely talent-diluted era. He has zero competition in the east at this point. The pacers are a very mediocre team, just lucky enough to be decent in a conference which is a laughingstock. Lance S. is emotionally unstable. Hibbert can't rebound or score. A 7'2" guy with 0 rebound games is a joke. Paul George is distracted by his paternity suit and has been extremely inconsistent. The team can't score. Their bench is weak. And this is the Heat's STRONGEST competition. A team with a bum for a center and 2 guys who are pseudo-superstars.

Keep failin man.

JVG noted that stats in games with 30 point leads "shouldn't count" because guys have stopped trying. In that vein, lebron's incredible stats should take into account the laughable caliber of competition he faces in the east. It should also take into account how much weaker teams are now because there are 7 extra teams.

Lebron is a great player. But he is also extremely fortunate to be playing in an era where he has no competition getting to the finals. His accomplishments matter less because he engineered, conpsired if you will, to create a superteam. And his finals victories are forever tainted by a condensed, chaotic season, and a 2nd "title" where the officiating decided the outcome of one game, and hence the series.

:clap: Some very fine work indeed!!!

amos1er
06-05-2014, 07:24 AM
"Bias" is a not a subject.

"A lot" is plural, "opinion" is singular.

I didn't agree to disagree. Bird was the superior player. The truth hurts. Want a cookie?

Ohhhh burn. Notice how it's always the more intelligent posters who see through the facade that is Lebron James.

amos1er
06-05-2014, 07:31 AM
My heart tells me Larry is better, but my eyes tell me Lebron is better. Other than scoring Lebron does virtually everything else better.

Funny, because it's the eye test the does Lebron in every time. It's his artificially inflated paper stats that give his worshipers all of their amo.

Chronz
06-05-2014, 10:03 AM
Right because Larry Bird was a role player like Horry.

Not like he was the best player on the team or anything.....
I know, amazing how Id STILL rather have Horry than the best player of the team taking the same shot.

Chronz
06-05-2014, 10:43 AM
I see what you mean, but it all depends on the system one is running. Lebron is able to be successful in an era where you really don't need a dominant big to win. That and there is a lack of dominant bigs in todays NBA. Lebron has always been surrounded by three point specialists, so I don't know if that would be possible in the 90's... Especially 80's while still being a contender.
Spacing is less important in an era where teams cant load up on stars as easily, but shooting is always beneficial, Im assuming he has VERY good support ala MJ in order to compete back then, has nothing to do with bigmen because what matters is the entire team.




Lebron isn't really renowned for his play off the ball, nor his iso game.
I disagree, hes always been of the greatest isolation players because of the total package and amount of attention he draws.


I don't really see the absence of a zone defense really being all that dramatic to him. If he were a big and mostly played in the post like Hakeem (as you mentioned earlier) I could see this being a problem for him.
LOL, it wasn't just Hakeem, it was guys like Tmac who complained about zones as well. Its not restricted to post players, its a method of containing all forms of isolation basketball. Thats literally the reason it was instilled. Anyone who saw what it did to the Steve Francis/Cuttino Mobley iso heavy offense back in the day can tell you why, but I would honestly hope your basketball IQ is good enough to picture it as is. Phil couldn't stop *****ing about it when teams loaded up on MJ. Regardless, Bron actually plays a fair bit in the post these days, you could argue him being the best post player in the league at this point.


Lebron usually brings the ball up the court like a point guard, so the player usually begins and ends with him touching it anyways. The extra possessions might help his stats a bit more, but would also lead to more fatigue over the years which would hurt his longevity. The extra possessions in now way would make him more or less likely to win.
Bron has the versatility to be both the initiator and recipient of the offense. What he does is dependent on how hes defended. And your making a desperate reach by thinking more possessions decreases longevity, some athletes actually prefer up and down games because its less grueling than the nature of a half court grind. So nothing you said was rooted in fact.


The combination of hand checking and softer rules would make guys like Jordan and Bird get at least 25% more FT's per game, which would likely help their ppg and TS%.
Nah, PPG definitely drops, compared to the 80's, there simply arent enough possessions to offset that slight advantage. I could definitely imagine MJ being more efficient and a better offensive player, hes the GOAT, but my greater point is that you're desperately reaching if you feel its a dramatic shift.



Just imagine a team trying to implement the "Jordan Rules" on Lebron in the modern era...
Jordan rules were just a downgraded version of flooding the strongside box. Matchup zones are far more effective because they dont rely on the same triggers, ie defenders dont actually have to wait for MJ to get the ball in order to contain him. This isn't to say there were no zones back then, just like it would be foolish to think handchecking is gone in its entirety today but you definitely had to hide it more back then. Watch how the Sonics ran an illegal box-1 vs Hakeem, or even MJ in the Finals where he was individually held in check.



Their entire starting five would be ejected before the first quarter ended.
Hyperbole for the win. Imagine teams trying to run standard strong side overloads back then, their team would be called for 15 illegal defensive possessions in the first quarter. Whos hyperbole wins here? LOL


That and Bird and Jordan are some of the most mentally tough players the NBA has ever seen... Lebron is certainly no match for them in this regard. It is only as of late that Lebron has gained a respectable fortitude of mental toughness and even still, he is nothing compared to the tougher guys of the previous eras. 2011 Lebron folded under less pressure and competition then guys like Bird and Jordan ever faced. If the physicality was anything like the 80's and 90's, imagine much worse his choking would have been.
LMFAO, I dont care for your psycho babble and unsubstantiated claims, I think I've made that clear by now. Bron would have it easier in the softer 80's.




Soft 80's??? LOL!!!
LMFAO. I know right, imagine not even being able to position yourself however you wish. Combined with more transition buckets and its a feast for a guy like Bron, especially against the twigs back then.


He would be laughed out of the league for flopping long before he ever won a ring.

Right, because thats exactly what happened. Never mind that flopping has been done since the days when Phil Jackson would simply fall to the floor and hope to get Wilt in foul trouble.


Again, it depends on the system that he would have ran. In a Showtime Lakers system, he might have been able to flourish, but if he ever got close lined like Rambis, I'm not sure how he would have been able to mentally adjust.
LMFAO. That clothesline was so shocking because that kind of physicality wasn't the norm, the NBA had actually seen a staggering decline in physicality/fights from the 70's. Notice how you're not mentioning Magic getting clotheslined in the same manner, but somehow its suppose to happen to Bron. Sorry but Bron would make it dramatic, then simply get up and pummel teams.


He had to sit out for cramps and an injured pinky.
He actually played through cramps and made a HUGE jumper despite them. Thats pretty heroic. Him sitting out is a rarity anyways so .....



Not to mention he is one of the biggest floppers and whiners to the refs the league has ever seen. I just can't see a guy like that being successful in an era where one had to draw significantly more contact to get calls and couldn't get away with flopping.
Thats because you focus on the minority events and ignore FAR more influential factors.



Even the Showtime Lakers had a dominant big... Lebron would not be able to get away with winning a title on one of the worst rebounding teams in the NBA in the 80's or 90's and thats a fact.
You actually think Kareem was a dominant big by the end? Did you even watch the games? Teams attacked him and Magic mercilessly whenever they could. You can win in a variety of ways, I dont see how you can project what Brons team would do without knowing the teammates he has. The Lakers were a below average rebounding team, and a mediocre defensive team overall, they are actually very close to the Heat in terms of rebound ranks for their respective league, only the Heat were FAR better defensively. Thats not exactly helping your case here.



As a result, his rebounding stats would lower by like 2 per game and without the barrage of three point snipers he currently has, his assist totals would take a hit as well.
As a result of what? You didn't name his teammates nor how his team would fair in either regard. This fantasy you're trying to pass off truly exposes your ignorance of statistics. If Bron is on a bad rebounding TEAM, his INDIVIDUAL rebounding numbers would be enhanced you combine that with the fact that there are more possessions and your rebounding projection looks truly ignorant. If you're saying hes on a BETTER rebounding team then the point you made before (the one about him being on a bad rebounding team) is moot.



Then you wouldn't be singing his statistical praises like you do now and his lack of iso and off the ball game would have him even lower in comparison to guys like Jordan and Bird both statistically and in terms of winning.
You have fallen laughably short of even hinting at this phenomena, let alone provide any definitive proof. I would be singing his statistical dominance even more in an era where he stands out physically and plays in an environment that diminishes his relative weakness (outside shooting) and enhances his strengths (interior play).




Again, how many of those fast break teams won championships while at the same time being at the bottom of the league in rebounding.
You're not getting me, Im talking about the ENTIRE LEAGUE. Just being in the 80's would equal more fastbreak opportunities, where his team ranks in that department is dependent on the make up of the entire team.

koreancabbage
06-05-2014, 10:44 AM
Ohhhh burn. Notice how it's always the more intelligent posters who see through the facade that is Lebron James.

idiots agree with idiots as well. I wouldn't particularly put you in the intelligent group. You tell posters not to insult you but with these types of posts, its kinda funny you complain on why people attack you ( sometimes I think you losing an argument- you consider it a personal attack )

I don't think anyone here takes you seriously. that's just the harsh reality.

Chronz
06-05-2014, 10:50 AM
Funny, because it's the eye test the does Lebron in every time. It's his artificially inflated paper stats that give his worshipers all of their amo.

Whats funny is that you think you can tell people what their eyes tell them. Time to realize you cant perverse the numbers nor the eye balls of others.

Bring The Heat
06-05-2014, 02:18 PM
Whats funny is that you think you can tell people what their eyes tell them. Time to realize you cant perverse the numbers nor the eye balls of others.

LOL man that guy never lets up on his hate... "artificially inflated paper stats"... That's a new one lol

cooters22
06-10-2014, 01:47 PM
Tough to compare people of past generations. I really don't think some players playing now could compete back then. Better defense, more physical, less favoritism, etc.

Randy West
06-10-2014, 01:57 PM
I think Larry Bird was a great player but better than LeBron James.........no no

You ask GM's the question of who you build around in their prime and the only one that answers Bird is Ainge if anyone does at all.

IKnowHoops
06-10-2014, 04:45 PM
This is a joke. Lebron has two EXTREMELY QUESTIONABLE "titles." As I said before, a "championship" in a season when every team in the assoc was simply scrambling to assemble rosters is just a joke. The second "championship" is just as sketchy with a very questionable no-call against Bosh. A no-call so egregious the league has spent an entire season focusing on this type of call in particular.

Bird is a far better shooter in every respect, a superior rebounder, a superior passer and was an excellent defender, with numerous clutch defensive plays in the most important moments. Bird is a superior clutch player on offense and defense.

Lebron meanwhile, has compiled efficiency stats based upon:

a. bullying much smaller, weaker and physically inferior opponents in the post and in the paint.
b. traveling so often, with so many additional steps the league might as well just let him forego dribbling altogether
c. in a conference so weak it is literally a second D league.

Lebron is compiling amazing numbers, BUT in an extremely talent-diluted era. He has zero competition in the east at this point. The pacers are a very mediocre team, just lucky enough to be decent in a conference which is a laughingstock. Lance S. is emotionally unstable. Hibbert can't rebound or score. A 7'2" guy with 0 rebound games is a joke. Paul George is distracted by his paternity suit and has been extremely inconsistent. The team can't score. Their bench is weak. And this is the Heat's STRONGEST competition. A team with a bum for a center and 2 guys who are pseudo-superstars.

Keep failin man.

JVG noted that stats in games with 30 point leads "shouldn't count" because guys have stopped trying. In that vein, lebron's incredible stats should take into account the laughable caliber of competition he faces in the east. It should also take into account how much weaker teams are now because there are 7 extra teams.

Lebron is a great player. But he is also extremely fortunate to be playing in an era where he has no competition getting to the finals. His accomplishments matter less because he engineered, conpsired if you will, to create a superteam. And his finals victories are forever tainted by a condensed, chaotic season, and a 2nd "title" where the officiating decided the outcome of one game, and hence the series.

hahahaha, even Larry Bird disagrees with you.
http://www.complex.com/sports/2012/07/larry-bird-thinks-lebron-james-had-the-best-playoff-run-in-nba-history

IKnowHoops
06-10-2014, 04:54 PM
This Lebron hype has become nauseating. We're talking about a player that promised the Cavs a title, then bolts to join a finals MVP and fellow top 3 player, along with a top 10 player to boot. We're talking about a player that had one of the biggest choke jobs in the history of the NBA in the 2011 finals. We're talking about a player that did everything he could in the last two minutes of game 6 last year to once again choke the finals away if not for a Ray Allen three. We're talking about a player that chased titles, in his prime, on the backs of the most stacked roster in NBA history relative to each era and the talent in the league at the time. That decision showed us what we already knew, Lebron James is a beta male that is hyped as an alpha male. Stat padding and protecting percentages may get past the casual fan, but it doesn't get by me.

No damn way is he better than Bird. No damn way is he better than Magic. No damn way is he better than Duncan. No damn way is he better than Hakeem. No damn way is he better than Kobe. No damn way is he better than Shaq. No damn way is he better than Kareem.

And don't do dare bring up Jordan in this conversation. Don't even think it. Go to bed.

Again not even Bird Agrees with his LOLOL
http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_rumors/view/183010-bird-annoints-lebron
Thread

Pablonovi
06-10-2014, 07:00 PM
General Equality Of: 1) Decades; 2) Great Teams; 3) Great Players

I started watching the NBA back in the late 1950s by the side of a very knowledgeable fan, my dad. I got to see the entire careers of all the All-Time Greats except Pettit (saw the last half); and Mikan (my dad had seen what little TV there was back then of him; and had read EVERTHING seemingly ever published about him. While we watched the 60's stars he filled my head full of Mikan wonders.

Perhaps the most important thing he ever taught we was tolerance-over-time. The last time I ever believed that some player was the GOAT forever was with Wilt (I still consider him THE most era-dominant player ever (not counting Mikan, because those were pre-integration AND tiny, immature leagues (NBL, BAA, NBA).

I consider ALL the decades as basically equal (none can be said to be QUALITATIVELY better than the others) from the 1960's onwards. I count the 1950's as "1/2 value" (because of pre-integration) and the 1940's as "1/4 value" (because of pre-integration & much weaker level of play).

I consider the best teams of each decade to be about equal with those of other decades. In other words, I do NOT hold any Great Team from any decade QUALITATIVELY better than the Great Teams from other decades.

I consider the best players of each decade as comparable to those of other decades. In other words, they could have still been great in other decades.

Those are my 3 starting points:
1) General Equality of Decades (60's, 70's, 80's, 90's, 00's, 10's);
2) General Equality of Best Teams From Decade To Decade;
3) General Equality of Best Players From Decade To Decade.

Pablonovi
06-10-2014, 07:40 PM
There Have Been 3 Eras Of Massive NBA Expansion & They Definitely Weakened Play

Pre-1962 The NBA had had 8 teams for a number of years. They added one in 1962.
Since then ALL NBA expansion (except once) has been in 3 "waves":
1st & 1st, Biggest Wave: 1967-71 (the "Competing With The ABA" wave): 8 Teams in 5 Years
2nd & 2nd Biggest Wave: 1975-81 (the "End Of The ABA" wave): 6 Teams In 7 Years
3nd & 3rd Biggest Wave: 1989-96 (the "Bulls 3-Peats" wave): 6 Teams In 8 Years

As you can see, these waves WERE in this order both in terms of number of teams added per year; and in order of the percent of teams added to the league overall.

Since 1996, only one team, the 30th, has been added, New Orleans in 2005.

It is my belief that each of these three "waves" automatically had to, and did, greatly though temporarily dilute down the average level of NBA teams. How could adding 6+ teams in 5-8 years each time NOT do so? Of course it did. It is my contention that this can be proven by examining the won-loss records of the Best Teams: Before, During & After Those Expansion Waves. I believe that such a study will show clear trends of the historically Best win-loss records corresponding closely with then-recent Expansion.

I'm about half-way thru such a study and will shortly present my findings (FREE of all bias - as I've already said, I treat all the decades as essentially equal as my starting point).

btw, I've just completed an examination, an historical analysis of the CONFERENCE VS CONFERENCE relationship. Either today (before tonights Finals Gm 3) or tomorrow, I'll present that. It is VERY INTERESTING to say the least.

Pablonovi
06-10-2014, 08:06 PM
imo, LeBron James Has Already Passed Larry Bird

All-NBA (-ABA) 1st-Teams & 2nd-Teams. My favorite "stat". Having studied IN-DEPTH these selections over the past 60, they correspond more closely (often by far) than any other stat (regular or advanced) to what my own "eye test" told me about each year's and each decade's Greatest Players.

Bird = 10 (9 firsts, 1 second)
LeBron = 10 (8 firsts, 2 seconds)
So this tells us that they are quite comparable (without considering PEAK); and that, in that comparison they are basically equal already. LeBron (barring catastrophic injury; will be sure to add at least some more 1st-Team and/or 2nd-Team selections in the coming years.

I note that LeBron also has more MVPs and more MVP shares than Bird; but I consider MVPs a relatively weak measure compared to the All-NBA 1st-Teams & 2nd-Teams.

PEAK: imo, LeBron's PEAK has been greater (and he might still be extending it) than Bird's. For example, the year he took the Cavs to the Finals, it is my FIRM belief that no All-Time Great could have done more with less; and that Bird, in particular would have done less (because LBJ could do more top-quality things than Bird could on the court.

TEAMMATES: Bird was always a part of a Decadal Great Team, the 1980's Celtics. LeBron was part of one of the worst teams ever on the Cavs. Bird had PEAK McHale, "Peak" Parish, (and top-quality play from such as: Bill Walton - one Great Year; Dennis Johnson, Cornbread Maxwell, and others.)

LeBron's HEAT teammates include nobody in their peak comparable to McHale (DWade is a relative shell of his earlier Great/PEAK self. Bosh is, in my opinion equal to or inferior to Parish. The rest of these HEAT teams are weaker than the rest of those Celtic teams.

TEAMmate: I have both in my All-Time Top 5 TEAMmates. I have Bird 5th, I have LeBron at least 3rd. I believe I'll rank him #1 in this "category" by the time his career ends.
1st Magic
2nd Stockton
3rd LeBron
4th Dr. J
5th Bird
- - -
SUMMATION: LeBron James has already passed Larry Bird on the NBA All-Time GOAT Ladder.
I have Bird: 11-15,
I have LeBron: 5

for your info, I have:
PABLO'S GOAT TOP 10:
#1 KAJ (50% more Great Years Than MJ (15 to 10), 67% More Finals Than MJ (10 to 6), Sky-Hook = Ultimate Weapon)
#2 Magic (Same Number of Great Years as MJ, 3 More Finals, better TEAMmate).
#3 MJ (greatest "assassin"; IF he had not thrown away PEAK & Prime Years, he'd be higher)
#4 Wilt (most era-dominant ever; greatest athlete of the entire 20th Century; IF he had only been able to win a 7th game or two against the almost-invincible Celtics' All-Star Teams, he'd be higher).
#5 LeBron [SEE above]
#s6-9: Kobe, Shaq, TD, Hakeem
(if Kobe & Shaq had stayed together, they'd have won 8 Chips in 10 years, with Shaq getting the first 4 fMVPs and Kobe the 2nd 4 fMVPs; and they'd be higher on this list. What a sad/bad mistake!)
#10: Dr J. (including his sensational ABA years; He was THE 2nd Best Player, behind KAJ, of the 1970's; and, he was still great in the NBA; head-to-head he beat Bird 2-1 in the Play-Offs).

Pablonovi
06-10-2014, 09:49 PM
NBA ALL-TIME HISTORY: CONFERENCE VS CONFERENCE: WESTERN VS EASTERN

Here is a small chart summarizing the "balance of power" between the two conferences:
N.B. The Colums: Ws(wins), Ls (losses) are both for the Western Conf.; "% Gap = W>E

# Yrs & No. Of...BETTER.....Ws.....Ls..........%.....% Gap W vs E
1 47-54 = ..8 Yrs WEST...1276.....1265.....50.2..... 1.813 %
2 55-70 = 16 Yrs EAST.....2776.....3325.....45.5.....-9.314%
3 71-79 = ..9 Yrs WEST....3708.....3426.....52.0.....4.048%
4 80-89 = 10 Yrs EAST.....4798.....5042.....48.8.....-2.580%
5 90-99 = 10 Yrs EVEN.....5335.....5369.....49.8 .....-0.311%
6 00-14 = 15 Yrs WEST....9375.....8425.....52.7.....5.277%

T: 47-14=68 Yrs EVEN.....27268.....26852.....50.4.....0.842%