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P&GRealist
05-31-2014, 01:28 PM
I'm not a Heat fan or LeBron fan. I don't even want the Heat to win, but I do have to admit 4 straight finals is impressive, and only 3 other teams have done.

Guess what? The "GOAT" Michael Jordan never did it, because he quit either due to gambling issues or Jerry Krause issues which led to his 'retirements'. 4 straight finals is something Jordan never will have over LeBron. LeBron is better than Jordan, there's no doubt about that. He's better than MJ in every facet of the name and now he is going to be a bigger and better winner than MJ. People may not like it, but deal with it, because it's the cold hard truth.

People think it's inconceivable and sacrilegious that anyone can surpass Michael.

Well guess what? iT Already has! I bet in a 7 game series, these Heat would wipe the floor with those Bulls. History is being made haturz, and honestly I have become a Witness.

WE ARE ALL WITNESSES!!!

goingfor28
05-31-2014, 01:36 PM
:laugh:

MJ was also 6 for 6 in the finals and never had to team up with super friends to win. And didn't have a totally free ride to the finals ever

MiamiBoy77
05-31-2014, 01:37 PM
people like you just fuel the hate on my team....

yungincome
05-31-2014, 01:38 PM
:laugh2:

goingfor28
05-31-2014, 01:39 PM
Bulls would beat Miami in a series without a doubt.
Put Jordan on Wade
Pippen on lebron
And Rodman would have bosh crying like a girl.

Minimal
05-31-2014, 01:45 PM
:laugh:

MJ was also 6 for 6 in the finals and never had to team up with super friends to win. And didn't have a totally free ride to the finals ever
MJ was also 1-9 in the playoff series before Pippen

P&GRealist
05-31-2014, 01:45 PM
Bulls would beat Miami in a series without a doubt.
Put Jordan on Wade
Pippen on lebron
And Rodman would have bosh crying like a girl.
Bosh would drain J's and keep Rodman away from the rim. Who's gonna get the rebounds then for Chicago?

Pippen would get into foul trouble against Bron in 2 of the 7 games in the series, atleast. Plus, Scottie would have to expend all his energy on the defensive end and have nothing left on the offensive end, leaving all the offensive burden against MJ, who would be facing the great shot blocking shooting guard in NBA history, D-Wade.

Shammyguy3
05-31-2014, 01:46 PM
So, since Lebron made it to the Finals 4 straight years, but has only 2 rings to show for it (3 at best), he's better than MJ? No way, no how. Lebron absolutely could be in that GOAT discussion at the end of his career if he wins a couple more rings and has a long-lasting peak much like KAJ or Stockton did, but right now he's still not in the top-5 to me (Jordan, Hakeem, Kareem, Wilt, Shaq)

P&GRealist
05-31-2014, 01:46 PM
people like you just fuel the hate on my team....

Your team? It's Mickey Arison's team.

We're damned if we don't say something nice about the Heat and damned if we do. We non-Heat fans can never win.

P&GRealist
05-31-2014, 01:47 PM
MJ was also 1-9 in the playoff series before Pippen

Exactly!

goingfor28
05-31-2014, 01:48 PM
MJ was also 1-9 in the playoff series before Pippen

Cool. Nobody wins by themselves. Not Jordan not lebron not kobe, but nobody teams up to form a cute trio like Miami either.

Wade n Fade
05-31-2014, 01:48 PM
I'll tell you somethings that MJ never did: he wasn't the team's leading scorer/rebounder/assist man and guarded the other team's best player (positions 1-5) all at the same time. Lebron does that. Lebron is also a better role model. Lebron will surpass Jordan.

ManRam
05-31-2014, 01:48 PM
His legacy doesn't touch MJ's at this point, for sure.

Peak play is close. But LeBron has a ton of work left to do to have a serious chance of taking the throne. A lot.

goingfor28
05-31-2014, 01:49 PM
people like you just fuel the hate on my team....

Or I stated my opinion :shrug:

Shammyguy3
05-31-2014, 01:52 PM
Bosh would drain J's and keep Rodman away from the rim. Who's gonna get the rebounds then for Chicago?

Pippen would get into foul trouble against Bron in 2 of the 7 games in the series, atleast. Plus, Scottie would have to expend all his energy on the defensive end and have nothing left on the offensive end, leaving all the offensive burden against MJ, who would be facing the great shot blocking shooting guard in NBA history, D-Wade.

You're worried about Chicago not getting rebounds, while playing the Heat? :laugh2: Pippen would not get into foul trouble against Lebron in 2 games. What crap is that? And if you want to say that he does, then how do you think Wade does against Jordan? :laugh: You don't think Wade or Lebron, whomever is guarding Jordan, would have to expend all of their energy on the defensive end? And so what if Wade is the greatest shot blocking SG ever? :laugh:

:laugh:

P&GRealist
05-31-2014, 01:53 PM
I'll tell you somethings that MJ never did: he wasn't the team's leading scorer/rebounder/assist man and guarded the other team's best player (positions 1-5) all at the same time. Lebron does that. Lebron is also a better role model. Lebron will surpass Jordan.

The role model argument is point on. MJ slept around and gambled and retired 3 times like a baboon, Kobe raped the white chick and who knows how many countless chicks he's banged while cheating on his wife, Magic got HIV. Bron is clean and a better person and role model for sure.

He also dominates statistically that those guys just haven't been able to do so consistently.

jerellh528
05-31-2014, 01:53 PM
Lol c'mon p&g. You're better than this

goingfor28
05-31-2014, 01:57 PM
Lol c'mon p&g. You're better than this

No. He's really not lol

shauneazy
05-31-2014, 02:00 PM
I'm not a Lebron fan by any means, I'm a Kobe guy. But objectively looking at it, I'm just not so sure you can say Lebron is better than MJ. Four straight finals appearances (obviously 2-1) against a weak Eastern conference when they played the Bobcats, Nets and the Pacers (who actually showed up for 2 games), I'm just not impressed with the finals appearances number. But, you have to give respect where it is deserved.

The reason I brought up who they played, I look back at MJ who actually had to play to make it to the championships and win them. From '90-'98, he led them to at least 62 wins 5 of the 7 years (the year he took off I'm not counting) including a 72 win season. He led them to the Finals against teams like the Knicks, Miami, Orlando, the Pacers, Detroit, etc. all of which were tough competition just to make it to the Finals. Then, he went on the beat the Malone and Stockton Jazz, the Peyton/Kemp Sonics, the Magic Johnson Lakers, the Barkley Suns..

The point I'm making, is that Jordan did what he did with a lot more competition. I think Lebron has had his hand catered to him and it's a breeze for him in the playoffs. Look at the East and tell me otherwise. Is Lebron the best right now? I'd say so. His numbers are great - he's machine with the stats.

But do I think he's better than MJ - no.

MiamiBoy77
05-31-2014, 02:00 PM
We're damned if we don't say something nice about the Heat and damned if we do. We non-Heat fans can never win.

he didnt say anything bad about the heat... idk what you are talking about

im saying that when people make comments like that, it gives you guys (non heat fans) a reason to hate... i was agreeing with you! ****

FlashBolt
05-31-2014, 02:00 PM
1) MJ was 1-9 in the playoffs without Pippen.
2) LeBron made it to the NBA finals with a crappy roster.
3) Pippen+Rodman are better supporting players than Wade+Bosh will ever be.
4) MJ played in a different era and let's stop pretending he wasn't babysitted by NBA. They marketed the crap out of MJ.
5) The year MJ left, Pippen led them to 55 wins and seconds from getting to the ECF. Pippen was voted first team NBA, third in MVP voting, and All Star MVP.
6) Jordan played with the greatest defender, rebounder, and arguably the greatest coach.
7) Jordan never really had competition during those title reigns. Magic/Bird/Isiah were well past their "prime". Miami would beat the Sonics, Jazz, and Suns as well.

Despite what all of you say, talent is far greater now than it was ever. It was tougher back then but there are much more to basketball than being tough. Lots of new strategies, plays, and schemes. Have you seen a PG like Westbrook in Jordan's era? Have you seen a player who moves like a PG with a center built body? Have you seen a scorer like Durant who can score anywhere with such efficiency? You saw Bird but Bird wasn't as good of a scorer. I'm not taking anything away from Jordan's era but you guys have to understand that every era has their pros and cons and you have to apply logic when discussing such topics. Jordan is Jordan and LeBron is LeBron. I don't think anyone can truly prove Jordan is better than LeBron or LeBron is better than Jordan. People say Jordan is 6-0 in the finals but how about Jordan never getting out of the first round for 6 years?

P&GRealist
05-31-2014, 02:02 PM
he didnt say anything bad about the heat... idk what you are talking about

im saying that when people make comments like that, it gives you guys (non heat fans) a reason to hate... i was agreeing with you! ****

Oh ok, my bad :)

d00d
05-31-2014, 02:02 PM
OP just ****ing quit with the complete bull ****. this is the only NBA star in history who leaves his team to join 2 other mega stars to take the easy road to rings.

MJ did it with some real serious role players. Noone was near his level, not even Pippen.

When this is all said and done, he will be remembered as the punk that he is who took the easy way.

MJ said it himself, he didn't want to join the best, he wanted to BEAT the best, and he did.. If his dad wasn't murdered, he would have won 8 rings, if he didn't have a **** GM in Krause the team would have continued.

LBJ will never compare to MJ as much as you fair weather Miami fans who will be gone as soon as he leaves want to believe he is

If Lebron played in the rugby era, he would have been ****. Pistons bad boys would have made him look silly

Cal827
05-31-2014, 02:04 PM
I got a good feeling about this thread.

But I'm going back to the Tittays

P&GRealist
05-31-2014, 02:07 PM
No. He's really not lol

You're a Yankees fan. You should appreciate greatness. The Heat are slowly going to become the Yankees of the NBA winning championship after championship.

Mr_Jones
05-31-2014, 02:09 PM
I see what you did there, P&G ;)

bucketss
05-31-2014, 02:10 PM
Bulls would beat Miami in a series without a doubt.
Put Jordan on Wade
Pippen on lebron
And Rodman would have bosh crying like a girl.
lol what an exaggeration.

OP just ****ing quit with the complete bull ****. this is the only NBA star in history who leaves his team to join 2 other mega stars to take the easy road to rings.

MJ did it with some real serious role players. Noone was near his level, not even Pippen.

When this is all said and done, he will be remembered as the punk that he is who took the easy way.

MJ said it himself, he didn't want to join the best, he wanted to BEAT the best, and he did.. If his dad wasn't murdered, he would have won 8 rings, if he didn't have a **** GM in Krause the team would have continued.

LBJ will never compare to MJ as much as you fair weather Miami fans who will be gone as soon as he leaves want to believe he is

If Lebron played in the rugby era, he would have been ****. Pistons bad boys would have made him look silly

lol if he wasn't really better people like this wouldn't even bother commenting on this post. but as you can see jordan fans along side kobe fans know the truth deep down.

goingfor28
05-31-2014, 02:10 PM
You're a Yankees fan. You should appreciate greatness. The Heat are slowly going to become the Yankees of the NBA winning championship after championship.

I dont deny LeBron's greatness. He's without question the best player in the league right now, and is as lethal offensively as he is defensively. He is a beast.
I just don't see him as better than Jordan. Jordan had that killer instinct and didn't leave his team when the going got tough to join other stars.
The nba is also a lot softer now, no fault of lebrons, but I don't know how lebron would be having to bang around with the likes or Rodman or the bad boy pistons teams. It's just an opinion

FlashBolt
05-31-2014, 02:11 PM
OP just ****ing quit with the complete bull ****. this is the only NBA star in history who leaves his team to join 2 other mega stars to take the easy road to rings.

MJ did it with some real serious role players. Noone was near his level, not even Pippen.

When this is all said and done, he will be remembered as the punk that he is who took the easy way.

MJ said it himself, he didn't want to join the best, he wanted to BEAT the best, and he did.. If his dad wasn't murdered, he would have won 8 rings, if he didn't have a **** GM in Krause the team would have continued.

LBJ will never compare to MJ as much as you fair weather Miami fans who will be gone as soon as he leaves want to believe he is

If Lebron played in the rugby era, he would have been ****. Pistons bad boys would have made him look silly

What kind of logic are you using? Wade isn't as good as Pippen was in a team aspect; neither is Bosh compared to Rodman. Those players did the intangibles that it took to win. Wade isn't a great defender and Pippen was. Bosh isn't a great defender or rebounder and Rodman was. That just meant Jordan had to score and he wouldn't have to worry about the rest because his teammates were there for that. LeBron has to score, rebound, and be their lockdown defender for them to consistently dominate. MJ never had to go nowhere because Chicago made a great trade for Pippen. Cleveland went to a homeless shelter and found a hobbling Shaq and then thought that was enough alongside James? LBJ will never compare to MJ but MJ will never compare to LeBron in many aspects as well. Speaking of the bad boy Pistons, your childhood hero, MJ, never beat the bad boy Pistons in their prime. Heck, he never beaten Magic's Lakers or Bird's Celtics in their prime as well. Jordan's championship reigns were against one all star with a good supporting cast such as Drexler and his good cast, Barkley and his good cast, and Stockton in the late end of his career with Karl Malone. MJ had Pippen in his prime, an elite defender/rebounder in Rodman in the final 3 rings, and the greatest winning coach in Phil Jackson. Stop pretending like he went through World War II.

Red_Pill
05-31-2014, 02:12 PM
The role model argument is point on. MJ slept around and gambled and retired 3 times like a baboon, Kobe raped the white chick and who knows how many countless chicks he's banged while cheating on his wife, Magic got HIV. Bron is clean and a better person and role model for sure.

He also dominates statistically that those guys just haven't been able to do so consistently.

Kobe didn't rape any woman. She was looking for a payday.

goingfor28
05-31-2014, 02:13 PM
Kobe didn't rape any woman. She was looking for a payday.

Lol

P&GRealist
05-31-2014, 02:13 PM
Kobe didn't rape any woman. She was looking for a payday.
And I hate tittays.

See how believable that statement is?

Mr_Jones
05-31-2014, 02:14 PM
You're a Yankees fan. You should appreciate greatness. The Heat are slowly going to become the Yankees of the NBA winning championship after championship.

You're going to get banned again lol

bringbackfredex
05-31-2014, 02:16 PM
Can't wait to see how fast these Heat fans alter their opinions on LeBron's greatness when he skips town in the offseason lol

P&GRealist
05-31-2014, 02:17 PM
You're going to get banned again lol
Just because I write something that you don't agree with?

ManningToTyree
05-31-2014, 02:17 PM
And what if they don't win?

FlashBolt
05-31-2014, 02:18 PM
I dont deny LeBron's greatness. He's without question the best player in the league right now, and is as lethal offensively as he is defensively. He is a beast.
I just don't see him as better than Jordan. Jordan had that killer instinct and didn't leave his team when the going got tough to join other stars.
The nba is also a lot softer now, no fault of lebrons, but I don't know how lebron would be having to bang around with the likes or Rodman or the bad boy pistons teams. It's just an opinion

Jordan had a killer instinct that led him to a record of 1-9 in the playoffs without Pippen? What does killer instinct even mean? Does it mean being that player who chucked up shots with an angry face? Where was that killer instinct before Pippen came? Just like Kobe, where was that killer instinct when Shaq left and Kobe was all alone? I sure as hell didn't see it but magically, there's a killer instinct when Pau arrives. Jordan never had to leave because Chicago made a trade for Pippen while Cleveland signed Ben Wallace to a 14 million a year deal. Jordan also wanted to leave when Chicago were thinking about trading Pippen. NBA may be softer, I'm not going to lie. But, you can't deny that the talent is far greater and thus, more competition.

Mr_Jones
05-31-2014, 02:18 PM
Just because I write something that you don't agree with?

:)

shauneazy
05-31-2014, 02:18 PM
And what if they don't win?

Key point. What if his career record in the finals is 2-3. Is he still better than Jordan, or better yet KOBE?

P&GRealist
05-31-2014, 02:20 PM
Key point. What if his career record in the finals is 2-3. Is he still better than Jordan, or better yet KOBE?

He already surpassed Kobe a long long time ago. Thats so elementary school, he's working on the IVY leagues, and that's Jordan, who I think he's already surpassed.

Hawkeye15
05-31-2014, 02:23 PM
His legacy doesn't touch MJ's at this point, for sure.

Peak play is close. But LeBron has a ton of work left to do to have a serious chance of taking the throne. A lot.

yep. LeBron has maybe a 10% chance of catching MJ to me. But, nothing wrong with being in the top 3 ever by the time he is done, which is highly plausible.

FlashBolt
05-31-2014, 02:27 PM
yep. LeBron has maybe a 10% chance of catching MJ to me. But, nothing wrong with being in the top 3 ever by the time he is done, which is highly plausible.

I feel the same. Even if he doesn't catch MJ, top 3 is GOAT status. I feel he'll be #2 but people will say he's not even top 10 these days.

shauneazy
05-31-2014, 02:28 PM
He already surpassed Kobe a long long time ago. Thats so elementary school, he's working on the IVY leagues, and that's Jordan, who I think he's already surpassed.

Soooo I'm not going to start a Kobe/Lebron debate on this thread, which I believe Lebron can put up all the stats he wants, but his hand isn't full of rings. BUT, he's no where near MJ.

P&GRealist
05-31-2014, 02:40 PM
I feel the same. Even if he doesn't catch MJ, top 3 is GOAT status. I feel he'll be #2 but people will say he's not even top 10 these days.

Nobody has said he is not top 10.

P&GRealist
05-31-2014, 02:40 PM
Soooo I'm not going to start a Kobe/Lebron debate on this thread, which I believe Lebron can put up all the stats he wants, but his hand isn't full of rings. BUT, he's no where near MJ.
Good, because there is no debate. Bron takes a dump on Kobe's legacy any day of the wk.

PhillyFaninLA
05-31-2014, 02:53 PM
Lol c'mon p&g. You're better than this

now that level of sacrasm is just mean

Vinylman
05-31-2014, 03:01 PM
P&G Trolling HARD

Mr_Jones
05-31-2014, 03:26 PM
P&G Trolling HARD
And nobody seems to get it haha

P&GRealist
05-31-2014, 03:34 PM
P&G Trolling HARD


And nobody seems to get it haha

Sometimes, perception isn't reality.

But Tittays are forever.

hovyboo
05-31-2014, 03:39 PM
MJ was also 1-9 in the playoff series before Pippen

Mathematically impossible

Jordan entered the league in 1984
Pippen in 1987

That's 3 seasons

How can you lose 9 series in 3 years

PrettyBoyJ
05-31-2014, 03:43 PM
Honestly, as a player LeBron will never reach Jordan's legacy. It's not a knock on LeBron, but Jordan was just that good of a player. 4 straight finals appearance is impressive, but Jordan owned the league in the 90s, and he retired mid way through. He clearly left championships on the table imo. Not to mention LeBron teaming up with Wade and Bosh, and the level of competition in the east now compared to the 90s is a joke. Not to mention Jordan was an icon, that changed the game on so many levels.

TheMightyHumph
05-31-2014, 03:43 PM
I'm not a Heat fan or LeBron fan. I don't even want the Heat to win, but I do have to admit 4 straight finals is impressive, and only 3 other teams have done.

Guess what? The "GOAT" Michael Jordan never did it, because he quit either due to gambling issues or Jerry Krause issues which led to his 'retirements'. 4 straight finals is something Jordan never will have over LeBron. LeBron is better than Jordan, there's no doubt about that. He's better than MJ in every facet of the name and now he is going to be a bigger and better winner than MJ. People may not like it, but deal with it, because it's the cold hard truth.

People think it's inconceivable and sacrilegious that anyone can surpass Michael.

Well guess what? iT Already has! I bet in a 7 game series, these Heat would wipe the floor with those Bulls. History is being made haturz, and honestly I have become a Witness.

WE ARE ALL WITNESSES!!!

You can tuc it under your bed if you like.

Michael was better.

Cal827
05-31-2014, 03:57 PM
Sometimes, perception isn't reality.

But Tittays are forever.

Quote of the year.

Vinylman
05-31-2014, 04:21 PM
Mathematically impossible

Jordan entered the league in 1984
Pippen in 1987

That's 3 seasons

How can you lose 9 series in 3 years

It's HEAT math... they are teaching it in all the public schools in South Beach

Vinylman
05-31-2014, 04:26 PM
And nobody seems to get it haha

yep... priceless

ghettosean
05-31-2014, 04:27 PM
People who actually believe Lebron is better than MJ are very very young and clearly have never seen him play at all... LOL... Even some of the spectacular youtube clips do Jordan no justice.

Hawkeye15
05-31-2014, 04:29 PM
He meant 1 win, 9 losses in 10 games, which is accurate.

bucketss
05-31-2014, 04:29 PM
People who actually believe Lebron is better than MJ are very very young and clearly have never seen him play at all... LOL... Even some of the spectacular youtube clips do Jordan no justice.

you think scottie pippen is old enough to have watched mj play?

still1ballin
05-31-2014, 04:33 PM
I'm not a Heat fan or LeBron fan. I don't even want the Heat to win, but I do have to admit 4 straight finals is impressive, and only 3 other teams have done.

Guess what? The "GOAT" Michael Jordan never did it, because he quit either due to gambling issues or Jerry Krause issues which led to his 'retirements'. 4 straight finals is something Jordan never will have over LeBron. LeBron is better than Jordan, there's no doubt about that. He's better than MJ in every facet of the name and now he is going to be a bigger and better winner than MJ. People may not like it, but deal with it, because it's the cold hard truth.

People think it's inconceivable and sacrilegious that anyone can surpass Michael.

Well guess what? iT Already has! I bet in a 7 game series, these Heat would wipe the floor with those Bulls. History is being made haturz, and honestly I have become a Witness.

WE ARE ALL WITNESSES!!!

da fack?

still1ballin
05-31-2014, 04:37 PM
:dance:

Jeffy25
05-31-2014, 04:41 PM
:laugh:

MJ was also 6 for 6 in the finals and never had to team up with super friends to win. And didn't have a totally free ride to the finals ever

How good was Jordan in the playoffs before he finally made it to the Finals?

Being 6 for 6 in the Finals has to be the worst argument anyone can make.

He didn't win every single time he made the playoffs.

Lebron shouldn't get hate because he's been to the Finals twice, and didn't win. Getting there is sometimes impressive enough, especially when he was in Cleveland.

Just a silly argument to make.

Jordan was in the playoffs 7 times before 1991, finally winning at the age of 27


How many rings did Jordan have at Lebron's age?

In Jordan's age 29 season, he got his 3rd ring, what Lebron very well might do.


Just silly to make comps like this

How about we compare them based on the actual production that they individually produce? And holding value to things like rings (team accomplishments), and it only counting in seasons when you make the Finals, and ignoring the years they don't.



Also, Jordan would have eventually left for a super team if one had not been created around him. That was never going to happen for Lebron in Cleveland. I am certain Jordan would have done that if Pippen, Rodman, Grant, etc

Lebron never had a 20 PER player in Cleveland (except Illgauskas in 05-06), something Jordan had in Pippen, which the first season Pippen did that, is the first year the Bulls won it all.


Jordan and Lebron are both elite players, but if you want Chips, you need help. It's silly to compare players based on things like Chips, and on their success when they are in the Finals only.

amos1er
05-31-2014, 04:43 PM
:laugh:

Jeffy25
05-31-2014, 04:49 PM
Mathematically impossible

Jordan entered the league in 1984
Pippen in 1987

That's 3 seasons

How can you lose 9 series in 3 years

1 win 9 losses

Jeffy25
05-31-2014, 04:50 PM
yep. LeBron has maybe a 10% chance of catching MJ to me. But, nothing wrong with being in the top 3 ever by the time he is done, which is highly plausible.

If Lebron plays until he is 40, and turns into a good post player and ages well, I can easily see him ending as the best of all time.

amos1er
05-31-2014, 04:50 PM
This just made my day. OMG me and all my friends are laughing are arses off. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

P&GRealist
05-31-2014, 04:52 PM
This just made my day. OMG me and all my friends are laughing are arses off. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

You mean you and illusionist ?

amos1er
05-31-2014, 04:54 PM
Tittays!!!

P&GRealist
05-31-2014, 04:56 PM
Tittays!!!

Yeah, the huge melon ones.

kingkenny01
05-31-2014, 04:59 PM
I think Michael Jordan is the best player ever, but anyone who makes the argument that michael jordan is better because he went 6 for 6 is stupid. What about all the series he lost before he won his first championship? Its not hard to argue MJ is better than lebron now, so don't use such a pathetic argument.

amos1er
05-31-2014, 04:59 PM
You mean you and illusionist ?

I should honestly tweet this for a good laugh. The guy blows out the Pacers last night and all of the sudden dude can shoot lasers from his eyes. It's just typical overhype bs that is just comical when you think about it. You mention that crap about 4 straight finals like it's impressive that he teamed up with the two top players in his conference still in their primes and put the greatest shooter of all time as his sixth man and beat up on the weakest competition of all time like that is supposed to be impressive or even close to what Jordan accomplished??? Come on now man and get over the euphoria of Lebron beating up on a Pacers team the clearly imploded and look at things objectively. Mentioning Lebron in the same sentence as MJ is just blasphemy plain and simple and honestly it makes you look very foolish. I hope you are just trolling because if you aren't then this honestly isn't even funny... It's sad.

IKnowHoops
05-31-2014, 05:00 PM
You're a Yankees fan. You should appreciate greatness. The Heat are slowly going to become the Yankees of the NBA winning championship after championship.

Ironic a yankees fan hates when great players come together.

Bruno
05-31-2014, 05:01 PM
lets point out that showtime Lakers and Birds Celtics both went 2/4 during their "four in a row" eras. LBJ and the heat have the opportunity to surpass that.

IKnowHoops
05-31-2014, 05:02 PM
I should honestly tweet this for a good laugh. The guy blows out the Pacers last night and all of the sudden dude can shoot lasers from his eyes. It's just typical overhype bs that is just comical when you think about it. You mention that crap about 4 straight finals like it's impressive that he teamed up with the two top players in his conference still in their primes and put the greatest shooter of all time as his sixth man and beat up on the weakest competition of all time like that is supposed to be impressive or even close to what Jordan accomplished??? Come on now man and get over the euphoria of Lebron beating up on a Pacers team the clearly imploded and look at things objectively. Mentioning Lebron in the same sentence as MJ is just blasphemy plain and simple and honestly it makes you look very foolish. I hope you are just trolling because if you aren't then this honestly isn't even funny... It's sad.

Hey your boy and super intelligent mod Jordansbulls did have the Pacers in a sweep. Is your boy a moron?

jmartin80
05-31-2014, 05:02 PM
How good was Jordan in the playoffs before he finally made it to the Finals?

Being 6 for 6 in the Finals has to be the worst argument anyone can make.

He didn't win every single time he made the playoffs.

Lebron shouldn't get hate because he's been to the Finals twice, and didn't win. Getting there is sometimes impressive enough, especially when he was in Cleveland.

Just a silly argument to make.

Jordan was in the playoffs 7 times before 1991, finally winning at the age of 27


How many rings did Jordan have at Lebron's age?

In Jordan's age 29 season, he got his 3rd ring, what Lebron very well might do.


Just silly to make comps like this

How about we compare them based on the actual production that they individually produce? And holding value to things like rings (team accomplishments), and it only counting in seasons when you make the Finals, and ignoring the years they don't.



Also, Jordan would have eventually left for a super team if one had not been created around him. That was never going to happen for Lebron in Cleveland. I am certain Jordan would have done that if Pippen, Rodman, Grant, etc

Lebron never had a 20 PER player in Cleveland (except Illgauskas in 05-06), something Jordan had in Pippen, which the first season Pippen did that, is the first year the Bulls won it all.


Jordan and Lebron are both elite players, but if you want Chips, you need help. It's silly to compare players based on things like Chips, and on their success when they are in the Finals only.

I usually don't disagree with you, but the bolded part has zero validity to it. You have no clue what would have happened. The fact that Lebron bolted on his own home team to join a super team makes it very difficult to ever put him and Michael in the same rank as far as "Legacy" goes. If he was truly the best to ever play, he would have found a way to win in Cleveland. That's my opinion of course.

In terms of ability, Lebron is one of the best of all time, but is not THE best. He still has a long way to go for that to even be a discussion with me. He is on his way for sure. It will be interesting to see what he does with the rest of his career. I just wish, as a fan, that he liked competition more then he does.

IKnowHoops
05-31-2014, 05:04 PM
1 win 9 losses

Meaning he got swept twice

Dade County
05-31-2014, 05:06 PM
I'm not a Heat fan or LeBron fan. I don't even want the Heat to win, but I do have to admit 4 straight finals is impressive, and only 3 other teams have done.

Guess what? The "GOAT" Michael Jordan never did it, because he quit either due to gambling issues or Jerry Krause issues which led to his 'retirements'. 4 straight finals is something Jordan never will have over LeBron. LeBron is better than Jordan, there's no doubt about that. He's better than MJ in every facet of the name and now he is going to be a bigger and better winner than MJ. People may not like it, but deal with it, because it's the cold hard truth.

People think it's inconceivable and sacrilegious that anyone can surpass Michael.

Well guess what? iT Already has! I bet in a 7 game series, these Heat would wipe the floor with those Bulls. History is being made haturz, and honestly I have become a Witness.

WE ARE ALL WITNESSES!!!

You are trolling... And this is a very bad joke.

You created this thread in hopes of negative feedback... It's not nice trying to manipulate people for ***** & giggles.

amos1er
05-31-2014, 05:09 PM
How good was Jordan in the playoffs before he finally made it to the Finals?

Being 6 for 6 in the Finals has to be the worst argument anyone can make.

He didn't win every single time he made the playoffs.

Lebron shouldn't get hate because he's been to the Finals twice, and didn't win. Getting there is sometimes impressive enough, especially when he was in Cleveland.

Just a silly argument to make.

Jordan was in the playoffs 7 times before 1991, finally winning at the age of 27


How many rings did Jordan have at Lebron's age?

In Jordan's age 29 season, he got his 3rd ring, what Lebron very well might do.


Just silly to make comps like this

How about we compare them based on the actual production that they individually produce? And holding value to things like rings (team accomplishments), and it only counting in seasons when you make the Finals, and ignoring the years they don't.



Also, Jordan would have eventually left for a super team if one had not been created around him. That was never going to happen for Lebron in Cleveland. I am certain Jordan would have done that if Pippen, Rodman, Grant, etc

Lebron never had a 20 PER player in Cleveland (except Illgauskas in 05-06), something Jordan had in Pippen, which the first season Pippen did that, is the first year the Bulls won it all.


Jordan and Lebron are both elite players, but if you want Chips, you need help. It's silly to compare players based on things like Chips, and on their success when they are in the Finals only.

Wow... It's amazing to me that there are people that are actually foolish enough to compare Lebron to MJ. I was just talking about this the other day in another forum about overrated players. Most of the rational people agreed that people who put Lebron in the same sentence as Jordan are overrating him tremendously. Honestly, I have to take my hat off to Nike, Gatorade, and Sprite and of course the good folks at ESPN like Simmons, Hollinger, and Abbott for their marketing campaign which is proving to be one of the greatest marketing campaigns of all time because the sheep that they have convinced of their propoganda is just proof of the power of people being able to convince others of just about anything if they put the right spin on it and a toast to the power of manipulation. People will always look for a messiah and all they need is someone to show them the way and tell them everything they want to hear. A truly sad state of affairs when you think about it and put in into perspective, yet at the same time I have to stand there in awe and marvel at it. Wow.

P&GRealist
05-31-2014, 05:11 PM
You are trolling... And this is a very bad joke.

You created this thread in hopes of negative feedback... It's not nice trying to manipulate people for ***** & giggles.
As i said to another Heat fan earlier. When it comes to non-Heat fans, we're damned if we talk bad about the Heat and damned if we talk good. It's a no-win situation for us.

bucketss
05-31-2014, 05:11 PM
I should honestly tweet this for a good laugh. The guy blows out the Pacers last night and all of the sudden dude can shoot lasers from his eyes. It's just typical overhype bs that is just comical when you think about it. You mention that crap about 4 straight finals like it's impressive that he teamed up with the two top players in his conference still in their primes and put the greatest shooter of all time as his sixth man and beat up on the weakest competition of all time like that is supposed to be impressive or even close to what Jordan accomplished??? Come on now man and get over the euphoria of Lebron beating up on a Pacers team the clearly imploded and look at things objectively. Mentioning Lebron in the same sentence as MJ is just blasphemy plain and simple and honestly it makes you look very foolish. I hope you are just trolling because if you aren't then this honestly isn't even funny... It's sad.

you're doing more crying than laughing.

thephoenixson28
05-31-2014, 05:12 PM
:laugh:

MJ was also 6 for 6 in the finals and never had to team up with super friends to win. And didn't have a totally free ride to the finals ever

Jordan already had super friends on his team. Just like anyone else that has won a championship.

amos1er
05-31-2014, 05:12 PM
I usually don't disagree with you, but the bolded part has zero validity to it. You have no clue what would have happened. The fact that Lebron bolted on his own home team to join a super team makes it very difficult to ever put him and Michael in the same rank as far as "Legacy" goes. If he was truly the best to ever play, he would have found a way to win in Cleveland. That's my opinion of course.

In terms of ability, Lebron is one of the best of all time, but is not THE best. He still has a long way to go for that to even be a discussion with me. He is on his way for sure. It will be interesting to see what he does with the rest of his career. I just wish, as a fan, that he liked competition more then he does.

:clap: Well said.

bucketss
05-31-2014, 05:14 PM
Wow... It's amazing to me that there are people that are actually foolish enough to compare Lebron to MJ. I was just talking about this the other day in another forum about overrated players. Most of the rational people agreed that people who put Lebron in the same sentence as Jordan are overrating him tremendously. Honestly, I have to take my hat off to Nike, Gatorade, and Sprite and of course the good folks at ESPN like Simmons, Hollinger, and Abbott for their marketing campaign which is proving to be one of the greatest marketing campaigns of all time because the sheep that they have convinced of their propoganda is just proof of the power of people being able to convince others of just about anything if they put the right spin on it and a toast to the power of manipulation. People will always look for a messiah and all they need is someone to show them the way and tell them everything they want to hear. A truly sad state of affairs when you think about it and put in into perspective, yet at the same time I have to stand there in awe and marvel at it. Wow.

im from canada, i don't even get espn. lebron > jordan

P&GRealist
05-31-2014, 05:15 PM
im from canada, i don't even get espn. lebron > jordan
Canadian tittays are the best. :drool:

bucketss
05-31-2014, 05:15 PM
:clap: Well said.

:laugh: did you change your sig after this thread??

bucketss
05-31-2014, 05:17 PM
Wow... It's amazing to me that there are people that are actually foolish enough to compare Lebron to MJ. I was just talking about this the other day in another forum about overrated players. Most of the rational people agreed that people who put Lebron in the same sentence as Jordan are overrating him tremendously. Honestly, I have to take my hat off to Nike, Gatorade, and Sprite and of course the good folks at ESPN like Simmons, Hollinger, and Abbott for their marketing campaign which is proving to be one of the greatest marketing campaigns of all time because the sheep that they have convinced of their propoganda is just proof of the power of people being able to convince others of just about anything if they put the right spin on it and a toast to the power of manipulation. People will always look for a messiah and all they need is someone to show them the way and tell them everything they want to hear. A truly sad state of affairs when you think about it and put in into perspective, yet at the same time I have to stand there in awe and marvel at it. Wow.

loololol its just basketball bro, you gonna force your opinion on others?

Pablonovi
05-31-2014, 05:18 PM
1) MJ was 1-9 in the playoffs without Pippen.
2) LeBron made it to the NBA finals with a crappy roster.
3) Pippen+Rodman are better supporting players than Wade+Bosh will ever be.
4) MJ played in a different era and let's stop pretending he wasn't babysitted by NBA. They marketed the crap out of MJ.
5) The year MJ left, Pippen led them to 55 wins and seconds from getting to the ECF. Pippen was voted first team NBA, third in MVP voting, and All Star MVP.
6) Jordan played with the greatest defender, rebounder, and arguably the greatest coach.
7) Jordan never really had competition during those title reigns. Magic/Bird/Isiah were well past their "prime". Miami would beat the Sonics, Jazz, and Suns as well.

Despite what all of you say, talent is far greater now than it was ever. It was tougher back then but there are much more to basketball than being tough. Lots of new strategies, plays, and schemes. Have you seen a PG like Westbrook in Jordan's era? Have you seen a player who moves like a PG with a center built body? Have you seen a scorer like Durant who can score anywhere with such efficiency? You saw Bird but Bird wasn't as good of a scorer. I'm not taking anything away from Jordan's era but you guys have to understand that every era has their pros and cons and you have to apply logic when discussing such topics. Jordan is Jordan and LeBron is LeBron. I don't think anyone can truly prove Jordan is better than LeBron or LeBron is better than Jordan. People say Jordan is 6-0 in the finals but how about Jordan never getting out of the first round for 6 years?

Hey FB,
Pretty good post.
Prime Pippen was way better than LeBron's post-Prime DWade (so MJ had more help there EASILY);
Prime Rodman was the best pure-rebounder and a great defender (better fit for MJ; than Bosh is for LeBron)
PJax was the better coach than Spo (so far).

MJ's/Bulls Level Of League-Wide Competition:

Charlotte Hornets 1988-89 20-62 23,172 104.5 113.0
Miami Heat 1988-89 15-67 14,945 97.8 109.0
Minnesota Timberwolves 1989-90 22-60 26,160 95.2 99.4
Orlando Magic 1989-90 18-64 15.060 110.9 119.8
Toronto Raptors 1995-96 21-61 23,179 97.5 105.0
Vancouver Grizzlies 1995-96 15-67 17,183 89.8 99.8

CHECK THIS OUT! Jordan's Bulls Dominated The Last Two WEAKEST PERIODS IN NBA HISTORY!
Right before the first 3-peat, 4 new teams came in and averaged 19 wins the year or two before.
The very year of the start of the 2nd repeat: 2 new teams came in and averaged 18 wins that very year.

In the cases of the first repeat, those four expansion teams continued to suck big time all 3 years.
In the case of the 2nd repeat, the first FOUR expansion teams STILL sucked, and the newer ones sucked big time.

So, PLEASE, get over this myth that MJ faced superior competition to LBJ; much less far-superior competition.
IN FACT, MJ FACED THE WEAKEST NBA-COMPETITION IN THE LAST 40 YEARS; AND LEBRON'S IS MUCH TOUGHER COMPETITION (The NBA hasn't expanded in

amos1er
05-31-2014, 05:19 PM
Jordan already had super friends on his team. Just like anyone else that has won a championship.

Really??? Who???

How many former multiple all-stars and finals MVP's and top five players and top fifteen players did Jordan have on his team???

Pippen??? Don't make me laugh. Pippen was nobody before he played with Jordan. Any success Pippen had was owed to Jordan as Jordan was the one who groomed him. He didn't need to take less money to team up with guys who where already battle tested and proven winners. Jordan molded his own sidekick. Any credit you want to give to Pippen as a "superfriend" is just a further testament to Jordan's greatness in making players around him better. Lebron's "superfriends" all had to take their games down a few notches to play with him and make sure he could still put up his "stats" and win at the same time and as a result have had the worst statistical seasons of their careers while Lebron has had some of his best while syphoning off their talent to win the rings he couldn't win on his own. Lebron isn't even in the same room as Jordan. He's been knocking on the door for a while now but Jordan aint answering.

Jeffy25
05-31-2014, 05:21 PM
This just made my day. OMG me and all my friends are laughing are arses off. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Winning championships by yourself.

Let's talk about each players championships

A 20 PER player is a very good player

That's a top 25 player in the league

But to make this even more specific, let's say a PER of 18, and playing at least 2000 minutes - that's basically 40 players each season that do this....this is a Rudy Gay, Greg Monroe, Tyreke Evans caliber player.

Each players rings, and players they had that helped them:

Magic Johnson
80 - had Abdul-Jabbar - 25.3 PER, 3143 MP (better PER than Johnson) - had 2 more players with above league average PER
82 - had Abdul-Jabbar - 23.4 PER, 2677 MP (better PER than Johnson) - had 3 more players with above league average PER
85 - had Abdul-Jabbar - 22.9 PER, 2630 MP - had 4 more players with above league average PER
87 - had James Worthy - 18.4 PER, 2819 MP (Abdul-Jabbar had 17.9) - and had 3 other players with above league average PER
88 - had Byron Scott - 19.2 PER, 3048 MP - had Worth - 18.2 PER, 2655 MP - and 2 more players with above league average PER

So Magic clearly never did it himself, and for two of his Chips, he wasn't even the best player on the team. Playing with two other hall of famers (Worthy and Abdul-Jabbar) isn't winning anything by yourself.


Larry Bird:

81 - had Robert Parish - 25.2 PER, 2298 MP (better PER than Bird) - had two other players with at least league average PER
84 - had Kevin McHale - 20.0 PER, 2577 MP - had Robert Parish - 19.2 PER, 2867 MP
86 - had Kevin McHale - 21.6 PER, 2397 MP - had Robert Parish - 18.8 PER, 2567 MP, also Bill Walton was above league average

What did Bird win by himself? How many Hall of Famers did he actually have while playing? He was the best player on the last two chips, but he was absolutely never alone. He never won a chip by himself.


Jordan
91 - Pippen - 20.6 PER, 3014 MP, Horace Grant also above league average
92 - Pippen - 21.5 PER, 3164 MP, Horace Grant - 20.6 PER, 2859 MP
93 - Pippen - 19.2 PER, 3123 MP, Grant had a 17.5
96 - Pippen - 21.0 PER, 2825 MP, Kukoc - 20.4 PER, 2103 MP, Kerr also was above league average
97 - Pippen - 21.3 PER, 3095 MP, Kukoc only played 1600 minutes, and Kerr was above league average
98 - Pippen - 20.4 PER, 1652 MP, had two other above average players


Here are all the times Lebron had that sort of help in his entire Cleveland career:

03-04 - his Rookie season - Boozer and Ilgauskas
04-05 - second year in the league - Gooden and Ilgauskas
07-08 - Ilgauskas

So he either had to do it in his first two years in the league, or randomly in 07-08 when Ilgauskas was awful in the playoffs.




How did these three win it by themselves?

And do you honestly believe all things equal, if they were in Lebron's situation in Cleveland, they wouldn't have gone somewhere else to try and win?



Lebron was never going to get other hall of famers handed to him in Cleveland, like these guys did. There was never going to be a championship team built around him. So he left to find one in a larger market. Those three guys are in larger markets, and had great players given to them.

Jeffy25
05-31-2014, 05:25 PM
Really??? Who???

How many former multiple all-stars and finals MVP's and top five players and top fifteen players did Jordan have on his team???

Pippen??? Don't make me laugh. Pippen was nobody before he played with Jordan. Any success Pippen had was owed to Jordan as Jordan was the one who groomed him. He didn't need to take less money to team up with guys who where already battle tested and proven winners. Jordan molded his own sidekick. Any credit you want to give to Pippen as a "superfriend" is just a further testament to Jordan's greatness in making players around him better. Lebron's "superfriends" all had to take their games down a few notches to play with him and make sure he could still put up his "stats" and win at the same time and as a result have had the worst statistical seasons of their careers while Lebron has had some of his best while syphoning off their talent to win the rings he couldn't win on his own. Lebron isn't even in the same room as Jordan. He's been knocking on the door for a while now but Jordan aint answering.

I love how when the narrative works in the favor of your argument, you go with it.

Pippen sucked, Jordan made him great....it's not like he was a 5th overall pick or something and expected to be one of the best defensive players when he was drafted already.

No, it's all Jordan that made Pippen great....and that still ignores that he clearly did have help....Pippen was helpful. So was Kukoc, Grant, Rodman, etc.

Bruno
05-31-2014, 05:25 PM
will LBJ ever live down joining the Heat (notice I didn't say leaving Cleveland, I said joining the Heat)? no (unless he goes back and completes one of the greatest story book legacy turnarounds in sports history).
is the east a pathetically weak and battered conference? yes. is and has LBJ been playing absolutely brilliant basketball since 2012? yes.

lets not burry the past and context under the rug, but lets also give credit where credit is due. he has been brilliant ever since he took his game to the post. he became a man and one of the best basketball players ever after Dallas held him to 17 ppg in the 2011 finals. he exercised his strengths and built a great post game. i respect him for that.

P&GRealist
05-31-2014, 05:28 PM
Did I make a mistake making this thread topic?

For whoever is offended and sensitive and misunderstanding my motives, I'm ever so sorry.

I hope the select few can find it in your hearts to forgive me.


But it doesn't change from the fact that LeBron is on pace (if he isn't already) the greatest to have ever laced them up with Michael (#2) looking up to him and hiding for cover.

amos1er
05-31-2014, 05:30 PM
Hey FB,
Pretty good post.
Prime Pippen was way better than LeBron's post-Prime DWade (so MJ had more help there EASILY);
Prime Rodman was the best pure-rebounder and a great defender (better fit for MJ; than Bosh is for LeBron)
PJax was the better coach than Spo (so far).

MJ's/Bulls Level Of League-Wide Competition:

Charlotte Hornets 1988-89 20-62 23,172 104.5 113.0
Minnesota Timberwolves 1989-90 22-60 26,160 95.2 99.4
Toronto Raptors 1995-96 21-61 23,179 97.5 105.0
Vancouver Grizzlies 1995-96 15-67 17,183 89.8 99.8

CHECK THIS OUT! Jordan's Bulls Dominated The Last Two WEAKEST PERIODS IN NBA HISTORY!
Right before the first 3-peat, 2 new teams came in and averaged 21 wins the year before.
The very year of the start of the 2nd repeat: 2 new teams came in and averaged 18 wins that very year.

In the cases of the first repeat, those two expansion teams continued to suck big time all 3 years.
In the case of the 2nd repeat, the first two expansion teams STILL sucked, and the newer ones sucked big time.

So, PLEASE, get over this myth that MJ faced superior competition to LBJ; much less far-superior competition.

You are way off on this one. Post prime Wade as you call him has been money in the playoffs so far and is a much better player than Pippen was. Of course Pippen was the better defender, but over all impact it's not even close. Pippen was never a top five player in the NBA while Wade was arguably the best player in the NBA back in 2011 when they would have won it all but Lebron choked it away. Just because Wade has been unselfish and cooperative in sacrificing his personal stats to keep his majesty prince James happy, lets not kid ourselves into thinking that Wade at his full potential is still not capable of being a top five player still. Wade was a former finals MVP before teaming up with Lebron... Pippen was nothing. Jordan made Pippen who he was while Lebron had to take less money to team up with a former winner and someone who knew how to get the job done. As for Bosh, he could also still be a 23/12 player in this league and a teams number one option. Just because he too took his game down to appease the "chosen one" doesn't mean he isn't money still. He is a great fit for Lebron in that he is yet another outside jump shooter that can cater to Lebron's game and style of play. Lebron is lucky that Wade and Bosh are so versatile because otherwise, this little Justice League experiment would not have worked out. Rodman is a sixth man roll type player who can't even hope of having the same all-star caliber potential that Bosh has. Bosh was a multiple time all-star before he took less money to come to the Heat and help Lebron get some rings. How many all-star appearances did Rodman have??? Lets not diminish Jordan's greatness and get caught up in the hype of Nike, Gatorade, Sprite, and ESPN just after Lebron's Heat thrashed and beat up on an inferior Pacers team. Come back to reality people.

Cal827
05-31-2014, 05:30 PM
and I thought the porn threads of the past wouldn't be matched in entertainment value until I walked into here :laugh:

also Horry's 7 titles> Bryant's 5 titles

EDDY CURRY HAS MORE TITLES THAN BARKLEY, STOCKTON, AND MALONE COMBINED

Vinylman
05-31-2014, 05:31 PM
Did I make a mistake making this thread topic?

For whoever is offended and sensitive and misunderstanding my motives, I'm ever so sorry.

I hope the select few can find it in your hearts to forgive me.


But it doesn't change from the fact that LeBron is on pace (if he isn't already) the greatest to have ever laced them up with Michael (#2) looking up to him and hiding for cover.

Don't overplay it my friend... you have struck a solid balance to this point ... don't blow it :cool:

amos1er
05-31-2014, 05:31 PM
Did I make a mistake making this thread topic?

For whoever is offended and sensitive and misunderstanding my motives, I'm ever so sorry.

I hope the select few can find it in your hearts to forgive me.


But it doesn't change from the fact that LeBron is on pace (if he isn't already) the greatest to have ever laced them up with Michael (#2) looking up to him and hiding for cover.

Ya, I'm sure Jordan is trembling in fear as we speak right now. :laugh:

P&GRealist
05-31-2014, 05:31 PM
and I thought the porn threads of the past wouldn't be matched in entertainment value until I walked into here :laugh:

also Horry's 7 titles> Bryant's 5 titles

EDDY CURRY HAS MORE TITTAYS THAN BARKLEY, STOCKTON, AND MALONE COMBINED

Fixed

Jeffy25
05-31-2014, 05:33 PM
Wow... It's amazing to me that there are people that are actually foolish enough to compare Lebron to MJ. I was just talking about this the other day in another forum about overrated players. Most of the rational people agreed that people who put Lebron in the same sentence as Jordan are overrating him tremendously. Honestly, I have to take my hat off to Nike, Gatorade, and Sprite and of course the good folks at ESPN like Simmons, Hollinger, and Abbott for their marketing campaign which is proving to be one of the greatest marketing campaigns of all time because the sheep that they have convinced of their propoganda is just proof of the power of people being able to convince others of just about anything if they put the right spin on it and a toast to the power of manipulation. People will always look for a messiah and all they need is someone to show them the way and tell them everything they want to hear. A truly sad state of affairs when you think about it and put in into perspective, yet at the same time I have to stand there in awe and marvel at it. Wow.

Got any actual reasons with any evidence why it's a bad comp?


Here are some comps for ya, instead of just driveling everything you just said...let's put numbers to the test:

All-time

PER
1. Jordan - 27.91
2. James - 27.79

For a frame of reference, third all time is:
Shaq - 26.43

Win Shares All-Time

4. Jordan - 214.02
15. James - 168.54

James will absolutely catch and pass him at this.

Playoffs All-time

PER
1. Jordan - 28.60
2. James - 27.60

Just for frame of reference, 3rd all time is:

Shaq - 26.13

Win Shares, an accumulation value statistic

Playoffs All-Time
1. Jordan - 39.76
4. James - 33.09

Abdul-Jabbar and Duncan are 2 and 3

He's gonna pass them in this.


What proof do you have that Lebron will never catch Jordan?


I don't watch ESPN, and I don't even like Lebron, he seems like a huge douche. But let's be honest about what is being done and what is happening here

P&GRealist
05-31-2014, 05:33 PM
Ya, I'm sure Jordan is trembling in fear as we speak right now. :laugh:

You probably didn't see his old has-been *** pissing courtside in the Bobcats series when LeBron fast break dunked while simultaneous staring him down as if he was coming for MJ.

amos1er
05-31-2014, 05:40 PM
http://swishnba.com/tag/lebron-vs-jordan-stats-2013/


LeBron James has just won his second straight NBA Championship and his second straight Finals MVP, and as always, the comparisons to Michael Jordan are at an all time high so let’s take a look at how these two player’s careers stack up against each other 10 years in respectively.

First of all why did I choose to compare the two 10 years in? Why not both at age 28 (the age that LeBron is now). The answer is that it would be unfair. LeBron entered the league at aged 18 and therefore by age 28 he would have played 10 seasons in the NBA. Jordan on the other hand entered the league at age 21 and therefore at age 28 he would have only played 7 years in the league, in fact at age 28 Jordan has played almost 200 games less than LeBron (589 compared to 765 for James).

MVPs:

MJ: 3 – finished 2nd twice and 3rd twice

LBJ: 4 – finished 2nd once and 3rd once

Championships:

MJ: 3 in 3 tries

LBJ: 2 in 4 tries

Finals MVPs:

MJ: 3 – MJ became the first person in NBA history to win three consecutive finals MVP awards, a feat later repeated by himself and achieved by Shaquille O’Neal

LBJ: 2

Scoring Titles:

MJ: 7

LBJ: 1

Steals Titles:

MJ: 3

LBJ: 0

Rookie of the Year:

MJ: 1

LBJ: 1

Defensive player of the year:

MJ: 1 – The year MJ won DPOY he also led the NBA in steals per game, points per game and won MVP

LBJ: 0

Scoring Title and MVP in the same season:

MJ: 3

LBJ: 0

MVP and Finals MVP in the same season:

MJ: 2

LBJ: 2

Scoring Title and Steals Title in the same season:

MJ: 3

LBJ: 0

Scoring Title, MVP and Finals MVP in the same season:

MJ: 2

LBJ: 0

Scoring Title and Finals MVP in the same season:

MJ: 3

LBJ: 0

Games Played

MJ: 684 (MJ missed the majority of his second season with a broken foot and retired in 1993 and came back for the last 17 games of the 1994-1995 season)

LBJ: 765

Minutes Played:

MJ: 26,510

LBJ: 30,374

Regular season averages:

Points per game:

MJ: 32.2

LBJ: 27.6

Assists per game:

MJ: 5.9

LBJ: 6.9

Rebounds per game:

MJ: 6.3

LBJ: 7.3

Steals per game:

MJ: 2.7

LBJ: 1.7

Blocks per game:

MJ: 1.0

LBJ: 0.8

FG%

MJ: 51.4%

LBJ: 49.0%

3PT%

MJ: 30.7%

LBJ: 33.7%

FT%

MJ: 84.5%

LBJ: 74.7%

NBA Finals Breakdown and Comparison to the Regular Season:

A player’s numbers in an NBA Final should increase / be inflated due to the fact that only a maximum of 7 games can be played compared to a maximum of 82 games in the regular season and due to the fact that a player should raise their level of play when they get to the NBA Finals (due to the stakes being higher)

LeBron James:

2007

NBA Final: – 22ppg, 7.0rpg, 6.8apg, 1.0spg, 0.5bpg, 35.6% FG, 20.0% 3PT, 69.0% FT

Regular Season: 27.3ppg, 6.7rpg, 6.0apg, 1.6spg, 0.7bpg, 47.6% FG, 31.9% 3PT, 69.8% FT

Conclusion: LeBron’s play dropped when it pertained to: scoring (FG%, 3PT% and FT%), steals and blocks, however it increased when it came to rebounding and passing.

2011

NBA Final: 17.8ppg, 7.2rpg, 6.8apg, 1.7spg, 0.5bpg, 47.8% FG, 32.1% 3PT, 60.0% FT

Regular Season: 26.7ppg, 7.5rpg, 7.0apg, 1.6spg, 0.6spg, 51.0% FG, 33.0% 3PT, 75.9% FT

Conclusion: LeBron’s play dropped when it pertained to: scoring (dramatically), FG%, FT% and 3PT%, additionally, despite his passive nature in this series, his assists declined as well as his rebounds, and blocks. His steals increased. Defensively LeBron was poor this series as those who have watched the series will know that Jason Terry (who actually out-scored LBJ – 18.0ppg on 49.4%FG and 39.3% 3PT) was often able to score and get to the basket easily.

2012

NBA Final: 28.6ppg, 10.2rpg, 7.4apg, 1.6spg, 0.4bpg, 47.2% FG, 18.8% 3PT, 82.6% FT

Regular Season: 27.1, 7.9rpg, 6.2apg, 1.9spg, 0.8bpg, 53.1% FG, 36.2% 3PT, 77.1% FT

Conclusion: LeBron’s points per game increased however his FG% fell by approximately 6%, his 3PT% also decreased by almost 20% however his FT shooting increased. His rebounding and passing increased however his steals per game and blocks per game decreased. Defensively LeBron was sound in this series although some might bring up that Durant (the opposing SF) shot 55% and averaged 30ppg for the finals.

2013

NBA Final: 25.3ppg, 10.9rpg, 7.0apg, 2.3spg, 0.9bpg, 44.7% FG, 35.3% 3PT, 79.5% FT

Regular Season: 26.8ppg, 8.0rpg, 7.3apg, 1.7spg, 0.9bpg, 56.5% FG, 40.6% 3PT, 75.3% FT

Conclusion: LeBron’s scoring dropped in points per game, FG% and 3PT%. His steals and rebounding increased as well as FT shooting. However, his passing decreased slightly. In my opinion this was by far his best finals series defensively as he showed great versatility in being able to guard Tony Parker in critical moments of various games, most noticeably in towards the end of game 6 and 7. Those that have watched the series will know that scoring wise, LeBron under-performed significantly for the first 3 games (failing to score over 20 points in either of them), however, he redeemed himself in the remaining 4 games.

LeBron’s Finals averages:

(4 NBA Finals – 22 games): 23.2ppg, 43.8 FG%, 9.0rpg, 7.0apg, 1.72spg, 0.59bpg, 26.5 3PT %, 72.7% FT

Overall conclusion: When it comes to the NBA Finals LeBron’s scoring and overall efficiency has decreased. He has raised his level of play when it pertains to rebounding and has continued to be an effective passer. Overall defensively he has shown some inconsistency but has excelled in the later NBA Finals series’.

Michael Jordan:

1991

NBA Final: 31.2ppg, 6.6rpg, 11.4apg, 2.8spg, 1.4bpg, 55% FG, 50% 3PT, 84.8% FT

Regular Season: 31.5ppg (led the league), 6.0rpg, 5.5apg, 2.7spg, 1.0bpg, 53.9% FG, 31.2% 3PT, 85.1% FT

Conclusion: In the finals Jordan raised his level of play when it pertained to: scoring, shooting (FG%, FT and 3PT) (his points per game decreased slightly), rebounding, passing (which doubled!), stealing, blocking and also defensively. Pippen did guard Magic for extended periods due to Jordan getting into foul trouble (games 1 and 2 of the series), however overall Jordan’s energy and effort on defence increased.

1992

NBA final: 35.8ppg, 4.8rpg, 6.5apg, 1.7spg, 0.3bpg, 52.6% FG, 42.9 3PT%, 89.1% FT

Regular Season: 30.1ppg (led the league), 6.4rpg, 6.1apg, 2.3spg, 0.9bpg, 51.9% FG, .270 3PT%, 83.2% FT

Conclusion: In the finals Jordan raised his level of play when it pertained to: scoring, shooting (FG%, FT and 3PT – he set an NBA record 6 made three pointers in one half in game 1 of this series), passing and blocking. His steals and rebounding declined however those that have watched this series will know that this is probably Jordan’s best series defensively. He took Clyde Drexler (who finished second in MVP voting) out of his game offensively, so much so that Drexler’s shooting %’s fell from 47% FG and 33.7% 3PT in the regular season to 40.7% FG and 15.0% 3PT in the Finals.

1993

NBA final: 41.0ppg (NBA Finals record – which still stands today), 8.5rpg, 6.3apg, 1.7spg, 0.7bpg, 50.8% FG, 40.0% 3PT, 69.4% FT

Regular season: 32.6ppg (led the league), 6.7rpg, 5.5apg, 2.8spg (led the league), 0.7bpg, 49.5% FG, 35.2% 3PT, 83.7% FT

Conclusion: In the finals Jordan raised his level of play when it pertained to: scoring (dramatically), FG%, 3PT% rebounding and passing. His level of play dropped when it came to steals and FT% and stayed the same when it came to blocks.

Overall Finals averages:

(3 NBA Finals – 17 games): 36.0ppg, 53.06 FG%, 7.2rpg, 8.06apg, 2.06spg, 0.8bpg, 44.3 3PT %, 81.1 FT%

Overall conclusion: When it came to the NBA Finals Jordan raised his overall level of play both offensively and defensively. While MJ was a prolific scorer, he showed the ability to adapt or adjust his game to different situations and increase his passing and/or rebounding numbers while still scoring at an increased rate.

Conclusion:

Michael Jordan – (3 NBA Finals – 17 games): 36.0ppg, 53.06 FG%, 7.2rpg, 8.06apg, 2.06spg, 0.8bpg, 44.3 3PT %, 81.1 FT%

LeBron James – (4 NBA Finals – 22 games): 23.2ppg, 43.8 FG%, 9.0rpg, 7.0apg, 1.72spg, 0.59bpg, 26.5 3PT %, 72.7% FT

In the NBA Finals after their first 10 years Jordan has higher: scoring, FG%, 3PT%, FT% and assist averages, as well as having played better, more consistent defence. LeBron has the advantage when it pertains to rebounding.

Jordan faced the: 5th, 3rd and 9th best defence in the NBA, on average that’s the 5.6th best defence in the league.

LeBron faced the: 2nd, 8th, 11th and 3rd best defence in the NBA, on average that’s the 6th best defence in the league.

Perimeter defenders and teams in Jordan’s era were allowed to defend much more physically due to being able to hand-check, the absence of the 3 second rule etc.

Additionally MJ matched up against Magic and Drexler in 91 and 92 respectively, both of whom finished second in MVP voting that year (due to MJ winning MVP). In 93 MJ faced (but didn’t match up against) Charles Barkley, who won MVP that year (MJ finished third behind Hakeem).

In 2007 Duncan finished 4th in MVP voting and Parker finished 15th, in 2011 Dirk finished 6th in MVP voting, in 2012 Durant finished 2nd (LeBron won MVP and matched up against Durant) and in 2013 Parker finished 6th in MVP voting.

Overall, after 10 years in the NBA, Jordan had dominated the league at a higher level than LeBron from both an offensive and defensive stand point and had raised his level of play in all areas on a more consistent basis in the NBA final better than LeBron had.

There it is Lebronites. So sorry to ruin your day but there is just no hope for your little hero in terms of being in the same sentence as Jordan. Just forget it. Game over... Close thread.

amos1er
05-31-2014, 05:41 PM
You probably didn't see his old has-been *** pissing courtside in the Bobcats series when LeBron fast break dunked while simultaneous staring him down as if he was coming for MJ.

Don't know about that, but I'm sure he would piss his pants laughing if he ever saw this thread.

amos1er
05-31-2014, 05:44 PM
Got any actual reasons with any evidence why it's a bad comp?


Here are some comps for ya, instead of just driveling everything you just said...let's put numbers to the test:

All-time

PER
1. Jordan - 27.91
2. James - 27.79

For a frame of reference, third all time is:
Shaq - 26.43

Win Shares All-Time

4. Jordan - 214.02
15. James - 168.54

James will absolutely catch and pass him at this.

Playoffs All-time

PER
1. Jordan - 28.60
2. James - 27.60

Just for frame of reference, 3rd all time is:

Shaq - 26.13

Win Shares, an accumulation value statistic

Playoffs All-Time
1. Jordan - 39.76
4. James - 33.09

Abdul-Jabbar and Duncan are 2 and 3

He's gonna pass them in this.


What proof do you have that Lebron will never catch Jordan?


I don't watch ESPN, and I don't even like Lebron, he seems like a huge douche. But let's be honest about what is being done and what is happening here

Game set match... Back to the drawing board with you.

http://swishnba.com/tag/lebron-vs-jordan-stats-2013/


LeBron James has just won his second straight NBA Championship and his second straight Finals MVP, and as always, the comparisons to Michael Jordan are at an all time high so let’s take a look at how these two player’s careers stack up against each other 10 years in respectively.

First of all why did I choose to compare the two 10 years in? Why not both at age 28 (the age that LeBron is now). The answer is that it would be unfair. LeBron entered the league at aged 18 and therefore by age 28 he would have played 10 seasons in the NBA. Jordan on the other hand entered the league at age 21 and therefore at age 28 he would have only played 7 years in the league, in fact at age 28 Jordan has played almost 200 games less than LeBron (589 compared to 765 for James).

MVPs:

MJ: 3 – finished 2nd twice and 3rd twice

LBJ: 4 – finished 2nd once and 3rd once

Championships:

MJ: 3 in 3 tries

LBJ: 2 in 4 tries

Finals MVPs:

MJ: 3 – MJ became the first person in NBA history to win three consecutive finals MVP awards, a feat later repeated by himself and achieved by Shaquille O’Neal

LBJ: 2

Scoring Titles:

MJ: 7

LBJ: 1

Steals Titles:

MJ: 3

LBJ: 0

Rookie of the Year:

MJ: 1

LBJ: 1

Defensive player of the year:

MJ: 1 – The year MJ won DPOY he also led the NBA in steals per game, points per game and won MVP

LBJ: 0

Scoring Title and MVP in the same season:

MJ: 3

LBJ: 0

MVP and Finals MVP in the same season:

MJ: 2

LBJ: 2

Scoring Title and Steals Title in the same season:

MJ: 3

LBJ: 0

Scoring Title, MVP and Finals MVP in the same season:

MJ: 2

LBJ: 0

Scoring Title and Finals MVP in the same season:

MJ: 3

LBJ: 0

Games Played

MJ: 684 (MJ missed the majority of his second season with a broken foot and retired in 1993 and came back for the last 17 games of the 1994-1995 season)

LBJ: 765

Minutes Played:

MJ: 26,510

LBJ: 30,374

Regular season averages:

Points per game:

MJ: 32.2

LBJ: 27.6

Assists per game:

MJ: 5.9

LBJ: 6.9

Rebounds per game:

MJ: 6.3

LBJ: 7.3

Steals per game:

MJ: 2.7

LBJ: 1.7

Blocks per game:

MJ: 1.0

LBJ: 0.8

FG%

MJ: 51.4%

LBJ: 49.0%

3PT%

MJ: 30.7%

LBJ: 33.7%

FT%

MJ: 84.5%

LBJ: 74.7%

NBA Finals Breakdown and Comparison to the Regular Season:

A player’s numbers in an NBA Final should increase / be inflated due to the fact that only a maximum of 7 games can be played compared to a maximum of 82 games in the regular season and due to the fact that a player should raise their level of play when they get to the NBA Finals (due to the stakes being higher)

LeBron James:

2007

NBA Final: – 22ppg, 7.0rpg, 6.8apg, 1.0spg, 0.5bpg, 35.6% FG, 20.0% 3PT, 69.0% FT

Regular Season: 27.3ppg, 6.7rpg, 6.0apg, 1.6spg, 0.7bpg, 47.6% FG, 31.9% 3PT, 69.8% FT

Conclusion: LeBron’s play dropped when it pertained to: scoring (FG%, 3PT% and FT%), steals and blocks, however it increased when it came to rebounding and passing.

2011

NBA Final: 17.8ppg, 7.2rpg, 6.8apg, 1.7spg, 0.5bpg, 47.8% FG, 32.1% 3PT, 60.0% FT

Regular Season: 26.7ppg, 7.5rpg, 7.0apg, 1.6spg, 0.6spg, 51.0% FG, 33.0% 3PT, 75.9% FT

Conclusion: LeBron’s play dropped when it pertained to: scoring (dramatically), FG%, FT% and 3PT%, additionally, despite his passive nature in this series, his assists declined as well as his rebounds, and blocks. His steals increased. Defensively LeBron was poor this series as those who have watched the series will know that Jason Terry (who actually out-scored LBJ – 18.0ppg on 49.4%FG and 39.3% 3PT) was often able to score and get to the basket easily.

2012

NBA Final: 28.6ppg, 10.2rpg, 7.4apg, 1.6spg, 0.4bpg, 47.2% FG, 18.8% 3PT, 82.6% FT

Regular Season: 27.1, 7.9rpg, 6.2apg, 1.9spg, 0.8bpg, 53.1% FG, 36.2% 3PT, 77.1% FT

Conclusion: LeBron’s points per game increased however his FG% fell by approximately 6%, his 3PT% also decreased by almost 20% however his FT shooting increased. His rebounding and passing increased however his steals per game and blocks per game decreased. Defensively LeBron was sound in this series although some might bring up that Durant (the opposing SF) shot 55% and averaged 30ppg for the finals.

2013

NBA Final: 25.3ppg, 10.9rpg, 7.0apg, 2.3spg, 0.9bpg, 44.7% FG, 35.3% 3PT, 79.5% FT

Regular Season: 26.8ppg, 8.0rpg, 7.3apg, 1.7spg, 0.9bpg, 56.5% FG, 40.6% 3PT, 75.3% FT

Conclusion: LeBron’s scoring dropped in points per game, FG% and 3PT%. His steals and rebounding increased as well as FT shooting. However, his passing decreased slightly. In my opinion this was by far his best finals series defensively as he showed great versatility in being able to guard Tony Parker in critical moments of various games, most noticeably in towards the end of game 6 and 7. Those that have watched the series will know that scoring wise, LeBron under-performed significantly for the first 3 games (failing to score over 20 points in either of them), however, he redeemed himself in the remaining 4 games.

LeBron’s Finals averages:

(4 NBA Finals – 22 games): 23.2ppg, 43.8 FG%, 9.0rpg, 7.0apg, 1.72spg, 0.59bpg, 26.5 3PT %, 72.7% FT

Overall conclusion: When it comes to the NBA Finals LeBron’s scoring and overall efficiency has decreased. He has raised his level of play when it pertains to rebounding and has continued to be an effective passer. Overall defensively he has shown some inconsistency but has excelled in the later NBA Finals series’.

Michael Jordan:

1991

NBA Final: 31.2ppg, 6.6rpg, 11.4apg, 2.8spg, 1.4bpg, 55% FG, 50% 3PT, 84.8% FT

Regular Season: 31.5ppg (led the league), 6.0rpg, 5.5apg, 2.7spg, 1.0bpg, 53.9% FG, 31.2% 3PT, 85.1% FT

Conclusion: In the finals Jordan raised his level of play when it pertained to: scoring, shooting (FG%, FT and 3PT) (his points per game decreased slightly), rebounding, passing (which doubled!), stealing, blocking and also defensively. Pippen did guard Magic for extended periods due to Jordan getting into foul trouble (games 1 and 2 of the series), however overall Jordan’s energy and effort on defence increased.

1992

NBA final: 35.8ppg, 4.8rpg, 6.5apg, 1.7spg, 0.3bpg, 52.6% FG, 42.9 3PT%, 89.1% FT

Regular Season: 30.1ppg (led the league), 6.4rpg, 6.1apg, 2.3spg, 0.9bpg, 51.9% FG, .270 3PT%, 83.2% FT

Conclusion: In the finals Jordan raised his level of play when it pertained to: scoring, shooting (FG%, FT and 3PT – he set an NBA record 6 made three pointers in one half in game 1 of this series), passing and blocking. His steals and rebounding declined however those that have watched this series will know that this is probably Jordan’s best series defensively. He took Clyde Drexler (who finished second in MVP voting) out of his game offensively, so much so that Drexler’s shooting %’s fell from 47% FG and 33.7% 3PT in the regular season to 40.7% FG and 15.0% 3PT in the Finals.

1993

NBA final: 41.0ppg (NBA Finals record – which still stands today), 8.5rpg, 6.3apg, 1.7spg, 0.7bpg, 50.8% FG, 40.0% 3PT, 69.4% FT

Regular season: 32.6ppg (led the league), 6.7rpg, 5.5apg, 2.8spg (led the league), 0.7bpg, 49.5% FG, 35.2% 3PT, 83.7% FT

Conclusion: In the finals Jordan raised his level of play when it pertained to: scoring (dramatically), FG%, 3PT% rebounding and passing. His level of play dropped when it came to steals and FT% and stayed the same when it came to blocks.

Overall Finals averages:

(3 NBA Finals – 17 games): 36.0ppg, 53.06 FG%, 7.2rpg, 8.06apg, 2.06spg, 0.8bpg, 44.3 3PT %, 81.1 FT%

Overall conclusion: When it came to the NBA Finals Jordan raised his overall level of play both offensively and defensively. While MJ was a prolific scorer, he showed the ability to adapt or adjust his game to different situations and increase his passing and/or rebounding numbers while still scoring at an increased rate.

Conclusion:

Michael Jordan – (3 NBA Finals – 17 games): 36.0ppg, 53.06 FG%, 7.2rpg, 8.06apg, 2.06spg, 0.8bpg, 44.3 3PT %, 81.1 FT%

LeBron James – (4 NBA Finals – 22 games): 23.2ppg, 43.8 FG%, 9.0rpg, 7.0apg, 1.72spg, 0.59bpg, 26.5 3PT %, 72.7% FT

In the NBA Finals after their first 10 years Jordan has higher: scoring, FG%, 3PT%, FT% and assist averages, as well as having played better, more consistent defence. LeBron has the advantage when it pertains to rebounding.

Jordan faced the: 5th, 3rd and 9th best defence in the NBA, on average that’s the 5.6th best defence in the league.

LeBron faced the: 2nd, 8th, 11th and 3rd best defence in the NBA, on average that’s the 6th best defence in the league.

Perimeter defenders and teams in Jordan’s era were allowed to defend much more physically due to being able to hand-check, the absence of the 3 second rule etc.

Additionally MJ matched up against Magic and Drexler in 91 and 92 respectively, both of whom finished second in MVP voting that year (due to MJ winning MVP). In 93 MJ faced (but didn’t match up against) Charles Barkley, who won MVP that year (MJ finished third behind Hakeem).

In 2007 Duncan finished 4th in MVP voting and Parker finished 15th, in 2011 Dirk finished 6th in MVP voting, in 2012 Durant finished 2nd (LeBron won MVP and matched up against Durant) and in 2013 Parker finished 6th in MVP voting.

Overall, after 10 years in the NBA, Jordan had dominated the league at a higher level than LeBron from both an offensive and defensive stand point and had raised his level of play in all areas on a more consistent basis in the NBA final better than LeBron had.

amos1er
05-31-2014, 05:53 PM
Winning championships by yourself.

Let's talk about each players championships

A 20 PER player is a very good player

That's a top 25 player in the league

But to make this even more specific, let's say a PER of 18, and playing at least 2000 minutes - that's basically 40 players each season that do this....this is a Rudy Gay, Greg Monroe, Tyreke Evans caliber player.

Each players rings, and players they had that helped them:

Magic Johnson
80 - had Abdul-Jabbar - 25.3 PER, 3143 MP (better PER than Johnson) - had 2 more players with above league average PER
82 - had Abdul-Jabbar - 23.4 PER, 2677 MP (better PER than Johnson) - had 3 more players with above league average PER
85 - had Abdul-Jabbar - 22.9 PER, 2630 MP - had 4 more players with above league average PER
87 - had James Worthy - 18.4 PER, 2819 MP (Abdul-Jabbar had 17.9) - and had 3 other players with above league average PER
88 - had Byron Scott - 19.2 PER, 3048 MP - had Worth - 18.2 PER, 2655 MP - and 2 more players with above league average PER

So Magic clearly never did it himself, and for two of his Chips, he wasn't even the best player on the team. Playing with two other hall of famers (Worthy and Abdul-Jabbar) isn't winning anything by yourself.


Larry Bird:

81 - had Robert Parish - 25.2 PER, 2298 MP (better PER than Bird) - had two other players with at least league average PER
84 - had Kevin McHale - 20.0 PER, 2577 MP - had Robert Parish - 19.2 PER, 2867 MP
86 - had Kevin McHale - 21.6 PER, 2397 MP - had Robert Parish - 18.8 PER, 2567 MP, also Bill Walton was above league average

What did Bird win by himself? How many Hall of Famers did he actually have while playing? He was the best player on the last two chips, but he was absolutely never alone. He never won a chip by himself.


Jordan
91 - Pippen - 20.6 PER, 3014 MP, Horace Grant also above league average
92 - Pippen - 21.5 PER, 3164 MP, Horace Grant - 20.6 PER, 2859 MP
93 - Pippen - 19.2 PER, 3123 MP, Grant had a 17.5
96 - Pippen - 21.0 PER, 2825 MP, Kukoc - 20.4 PER, 2103 MP, Kerr also was above league average
97 - Pippen - 21.3 PER, 3095 MP, Kukoc only played 1600 minutes, and Kerr was above league average
98 - Pippen - 20.4 PER, 1652 MP, had two other above average players


Here are all the times Lebron had that sort of help in his entire Cleveland career:

03-04 - his Rookie season - Boozer and Ilgauskas
04-05 - second year in the league - Gooden and Ilgauskas
07-08 - Ilgauskas

So he either had to do it in his first two years in the league, or randomly in 07-08 when Ilgauskas was awful in the playoffs.




How did these three win it by themselves?

And do you honestly believe all things equal, if they were in Lebron's situation in Cleveland, they wouldn't have gone somewhere else to try and win?



Lebron was never going to get other hall of famers handed to him in Cleveland, like these guys did. There was never going to be a championship team built around him. So he left to find one in a larger market. Those three guys are in larger markets, and had great players given to them.

Oh no another PER argument. Oh the influence Hollinger has had on the Lebronites of the world. :laugh: When the entire basis for your argument is based off some theoretical stat, you know it's time to go back to the drawing board.

Did they ever explain the difference between theory and proven fact to you in ninth grade science?

Jeffy25
05-31-2014, 05:54 PM
Oh no another PER argument. Oh the influence Hollinger has had on the Lebronites of the world. :laugh: When the entire basis for your argument is based off some theoretical stat, you know it's time to go back to the drawing board.

Did they ever explain the difference between theory and proven fact to you in ninth grade science?

What facts have you shared in this thread?

amos1er
05-31-2014, 05:55 PM
will LBJ ever live down joining the Heat (notice I didn't say leaving Cleveland, I said joining the Heat)? no (unless he goes back and completes one of the greatest story book legacy turnarounds in sports history).
is the east a pathetically weak and battered conference? yes. is and has LBJ been playing absolutely brilliant basketball since 2012? yes.

lets not burry the past and context under the rug, but lets also give credit where credit is due. he has been brilliant ever since he took his game to the post. he became a man and one of the best basketball players ever after Dallas held him to 17 ppg in the 2011 finals. he exercised his strengths and built a great post game. i respect him for that.

I can respect this.

TheMightyHumph
05-31-2014, 05:55 PM
Did I make a mistake making this thread topic?

For whoever is offended and sensitive and misunderstanding my motives, I'm ever so sorry.

I hope the select few can find it in your hearts to forgive me.


But it doesn't change from the fact that LeBron is on pace (if he isn't already) the greatest to have ever laced them up with Michael (#2) looking up to him and hiding for cover.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

amos1er
05-31-2014, 05:56 PM
What facts have you shared in this thread?

Just graze through the past five pages. It's all there. I don't fell like regurgitating and summarizing everything I have said all over again for you.

Jeffy25
05-31-2014, 05:57 PM
Just graze through the past five pages. It's all there. I don't fell like regurgitating and summarizing everything I have said all over again for you.

Then maybe you need a trip back to 9th grade to learn what is considered a fact

FraziersKnicks
05-31-2014, 05:57 PM
If anyone else had posted the crap amos1er just posted I would pick it apart but it's just not worth the time and effort with someone who has such a vendetta against someone…

DaBear
05-31-2014, 05:57 PM
MJ was also 1-9 in the playoff series before Pippen

On a weak team in a legendary Eastern conference with the likes of the C's and Pistons. Who did LeBron have to beat to get to the Finals? Give me a break. The east has been a joke every year for LeBron.

amos1er
05-31-2014, 05:59 PM
Ok Lebronites, I'll make you a deal...

When Lebron wins MVP, DPOY, a scoring title, a steals title, and a finals MVP in the same season, we can have this discussion. Until then. :shush:

amos1er
05-31-2014, 05:59 PM
On a weak team in a legendary Eastern conference with the likes of the C's and Pistons. Who did LeBron have to beat to get to the Finals? Give me a break. The east has been a joke every year for LeBron.

Truth.

DaBear
05-31-2014, 05:59 PM
The role model argument is point on. MJ slept around and gambled and retired 3 times like a baboon, Kobe raped the white chick and who knows how many countless chicks he's banged while cheating on his wife, Magic got HIV. Bron is clean and a better person and role model for sure.

He also dominates statistically that those guys just haven't been able to do so consistently.

So he's a better basketball player because of something he does off the court? LeBron fans grasping for straws as usual. Truth is, none of you know these people personally. Let's stick to relevant parameters.

DaBear
05-31-2014, 06:02 PM
1) MJ was 1-9 in the playoffs without Pippen.
2) LeBron made it to the NBA finals with a crappy roster.
3) Pippen+Rodman are better supporting players than Wade+Bosh will ever be.
4) MJ played in a different era and let's stop pretending he wasn't babysitted by NBA. They marketed the crap out of MJ.
5) The year MJ left, Pippen led them to 55 wins and seconds from getting to the ECF. Pippen was voted first team NBA, third in MVP voting, and All Star MVP.
6) Jordan played with the greatest defender, rebounder, and arguably the greatest coach.
7) Jordan never really had competition during those title reigns. Magic/Bird/Isiah were well past their "prime". Miami would beat the Sonics, Jazz, and Suns as well.

Despite what all of you say, talent is far greater now than it was ever. It was tougher back then but there are much more to basketball than being tough. Lots of new strategies, plays, and schemes. Have you seen a PG like Westbrook in Jordan's era? Have you seen a player who moves like a PG with a center built body? Have you seen a scorer like Durant who can score anywhere with such efficiency? You saw Bird but Bird wasn't as good of a scorer. I'm not taking anything away from Jordan's era but you guys have to understand that every era has their pros and cons and you have to apply logic when discussing such topics. Jordan is Jordan and LeBron is LeBron. I don't think anyone can truly prove Jordan is better than LeBron or LeBron is better than Jordan. People say Jordan is 6-0 in the finals but how about Jordan never getting out of the first round for 6 years?

1) LeBron wouldn't get to the Finals with that team in that conference by himself either
2) In a weak conference, and then got swept in the Finals
3) No, they're not
4) He played in an era that wasn't soft
5) Without MJ, the Bulls didn't get to the Finals. Fact
6) LeBron played with a to be HOF SG, an elite PF in a weak conference
7) And who did Miami beat? A past their prime SA and OKC? :laugh2:. If it wasn't for Jordan, Malone would easily have 2 rings, the Sonics and Suns win those years

Jeffy25
05-31-2014, 06:03 PM
On a weak team in a legendary Eastern conference with the likes of the C's and Pistons. Who did LeBron have to beat to get to the Finals? Give me a break. The east has been a joke every year for LeBron.

Was it good in the 90's?

DaBear
05-31-2014, 06:04 PM
Was it good in the 90's?

Magic? Knicks? These teams would steam roll the Pacers.

amos1er
05-31-2014, 06:04 PM
If anyone else had posted the crap amos1er just posted I would pick it apart but it's just not worth the time and effort with someone who has such a vendetta against someone…

Ya ya... Bla bla bla. You couldn't even hold a candle to me in a debate. Same way Lebron can't hold a candle to Jordan in basketball.

Quit making excuse and just do us all the favor and don't even bother responding next time if you can't add anything intelligent to the conversation other than boasts with absolutely zero substance.

You know I could kick Floyd Mayweather's *** if I wanted to, he's just not worth my time. :laugh: Hopefully your smart enough to pick up on the sarcasm here.

amos1er
05-31-2014, 06:06 PM
1) LeBron wouldn't get to the Finals with that team in that conference by himself either
2) In a weak conference, and then got swept in the Finals
3) No, they're not
4) He played in an era that wasn't soft
5) Without MJ, the Bulls didn't get to the Finals. Fact
6) LeBron played with a to be HOF SG, an elite PF in a weak conference
7) And who did Miami beat? A past their prime SA and OKC? :laugh2:. If it wasn't for Jordan, Malone would easily have 2 rings, the Sonics and Suns win those years

Everything you have stated in all 100% fact. Unlike the theoretical and unproven Hollinger stats these Lebron worshipers love to fall back on and use as their crutch.

Jeffy25
05-31-2014, 06:07 PM
Ya ya... Bla bla bla. You couldn't even hold a candle to me in a debate. Same way Lebron can't hold a candle to Jordan in basketball.

Quit making excuse and just do us all the favor and don't even bother responding next time if you can't add anything intelligent to the conversation other than boasts with absolutely zero substance.

You know I could kick Floyd Mayweather's *** if I wanted to, he's just not worth my time. :laugh: Hopefully your smart enough to pick up on the sarcasm here.

I don't think you've added anything intelligent to this discussion?

It's blatant trolling. No idea why us mods let it go.

It's not against the rules to hate a player and post that way, but baiting certainly is.

Jeffy25
05-31-2014, 06:09 PM
Everything you have stated in all 100% fact. Unlike the theoretical and unproven Hollinger stats these Lebron worshipers love to fall back on and use as their crutch.

How do you calculate PER?

What makes it subjective and worthless to you?

Why should it be thrown out?

amos1er
05-31-2014, 06:09 PM
So he's a better basketball player because of something he does off the court? LeBron fans grasping for straws as usual. Truth is, none of you know these people personally. Let's stick to relevant parameters.

Finally, someone who doesn't have their Lebron blinders on. It's so hard to reach these people because they are all such homeristic fanboys who just cannot grasp reality. Comparing Lebron to Jordan is the act of a true fool with metaphoric Leboner.

DaBear
05-31-2014, 06:09 PM
LeBron had a super stacked team when they played Dallas, and still choked. I can't remember Jordan choking big in situations when he had a championship team. Oh, because he didn't..

amos1er
05-31-2014, 06:13 PM
How do you calculate PER?

What makes it subjective and worthless to you?

Why should it be thrown out?

Again, do I really need to explain the difference between using unproven statistical theorem and cold hard evidence? Would PER really hold up in a court of law? Perhaps under the guise of an expert witness, but what credentials does Hollinger really have other than a gig at ESPN. However, I could easily find a ton of statistical experts who would rip apart and refute his entire argument if he ever tried to use it in justification of anything concrete. PER is a theory... For you to state otherwise is just plain wrong.

amos1er
05-31-2014, 06:14 PM
LeBron had a super stacked team when they played Dallas, and still choked. I can't remember Jordan choking big in situations when he had a championship team. Oh, because he didn't..

+1

Bruno
05-31-2014, 06:15 PM
PER is a theory... For you to state otherwise is just plain wrong.

but dude what about the theory of relativity? thats a theory too but we don't dismiss it as being completely irrelevant.

ATX
05-31-2014, 06:16 PM
So amos has nothing left but to compare James to the GOAT, as his ammunition as to why James sucks...There is nothing to add the conversation with him...I mean what would be the point? Can we all just agree that amos despises James and therefore ignore him until his next ban. He hates James as if it's a full time job. I mean where does he find the time in the day to say the exact same things over and over and on and on. I mean James is one of the best players to ever play the game and is shattering records left and right, but the only ones who seem to have a problem with it are the usual Laker trolls, who troll this forum like their life depended on it. It's getting ridiculous. Yes amos, we all know you hate James! Please tell us again! And again! And again!

amos1er
05-31-2014, 06:16 PM
Hey Jeffy, Can you please explain to me the correlation between having a high PER and winning championships???

Lol.

I would love to see you try and take this one on.

Vinylman
05-31-2014, 06:17 PM
i don't think you've added anything intelligent to this discussion?

It's blatant trolling. no idea why us mods let it go.

It's not against the rules to hate a player and post that way, but baiting certainly is.

**** ing awesome!

The bolded summarizes everything that is wrong with psd

amos1er
05-31-2014, 06:17 PM
So amos has nothing left but to compare James to the GOAT, as his ammunition as to why James sucks. Hahaha. There is nothing to add the conversation with him...I mean what would be the point? Can we all just agree that amos despises James and therefore ignore him until his next ban. He hates James as if it's a full time job. I mean where does he find the time in the day to say the exact same things over and over and on and on. I mean James is one of the best players to ever play the game and is shattering records left and right, but the only ones who seem to have a problem with it are the usual Laker trolls, who troll this forum like their life depended on it. It's getting ridiculous. Yes amos, we all know you hate James! Please tell us again! And again! And again!

WTF are you talking about... I'm not the one who started this thread. Your first sentence make absolutely zero sense as does the rest of your argument as a result.

Jeffy25
05-31-2014, 06:19 PM
Again, do I really need to explain the difference between using unproven statistical theorem and cold hard evidence? Would PER really hold up in a court of law? Perhaps under the guise of an expert witness, but what credentials does Hollinger really have other than a gig at ESPN. However, I could easily find a ton of statistical experts who would rip apart and refute his entire argument if he ever tried to use it in justification of anything concrete. PER is a theory... For you to state otherwise is just plain wrong.

So...just no idea?

ATX
05-31-2014, 06:20 PM
but dude what about the theory of relativity? thats a theory too but we don't dismiss it as being completely irrelevant.

Kobe is 20th in All Time PER and James is 2nd..Therefor by amos' flawless logic, PER must be just a theory, and has no relevance. Of course! Now we get it!

Tony_Starks
05-31-2014, 06:21 PM
Are there really any respectable, NEUTRAL, knowledgable hoop fans that have this guy even in the top 5 all time already? All groupies, spiteful "I jock him cuz everybody else hates him" fans, bandwagoners, and strenuous dick riders aside...... most neutral fans can agree he still has like half of a career left before we even rank him right?

Vinylman
05-31-2014, 06:22 PM
Kobe is 20th in All Time PER and James is 2nd..Therefor by amos' flawless logic, PER must be just a theory, and has no relevance. Of course! Now we get it!

and the LBJ deflection team enters the arena

amos1er
05-31-2014, 06:23 PM
but dude what about the theory of relativity? thats a theory too but we don't dismiss it as being completely irrelevant.

Theory of relativity is about 99.9% backed by renowned experts of the scientific community. You can't really tell me that PER is that widely accepted. If there is a general consensus of agreement amount experts, then a theory can hold significantly more credence. Anything that is not factual cannot be used as evidence in a debate or in a court of law. Those are the rules... I don't make them, i just follow them.

amos1er
05-31-2014, 06:24 PM
Are there really any respectable, NEUTRAL, knowledgable hoop fans that have this guy even in the top 5 all time already? All groupies, spiteful "I jock him cuz everybody else hates him" fans, bandwagoners, and strenuous dick riders aside...... most neutral fans can agree he still has like half of a career left before we even rank him right?

Ah... Another voice of reason enters the arena.

Vinylman
05-31-2014, 06:25 PM
Are there really any respectable, NEUTRAL, knowledgable hoop fans that have this guy even in the top 5 all time already? All groupies, spiteful "I jock him cuz everybody else hates him" fans, bandwagoners, and strenuous dick riders aside...... most neutral fans can agree he still has like half of a career left before we even rank him right?

In all seriousness i would say he is approaching top 10 already and if he has a normal trajectory over the balance of his career he will be top 5 easily and maybe higher...

for the record... i have never liked Lebron but have tremendous respect for his game and his accomplishments.

amos1er
05-31-2014, 06:27 PM
So...just no idea?

PER is an unproven theorem and has no general consensus of acceptance amongst experts. Therefore it holds very little credence in a debate. What don't you get about that?

Oh and can you explain the correlation between PER and winning championships? So...just no idea?

TheMightyHumph
05-31-2014, 06:28 PM
Are there really any respectable, NEUTRAL, knowledgable hoop fans that have this guy even in the top 5 all time already? All groupies, spiteful "I jock him cuz everybody else hates him" fans, bandwagoners, and strenuous dick riders aside...... most neutral fans can agree he still has like half of a career left before we even rank him right?

So I guess the answer to the OPs question is 'NO'.

numba1CHANGsta
05-31-2014, 06:28 PM
LeBron and the 7 Dwarfs(aka refs) will always be below MJ, no one will ever beat MJ EVER!!!!

amos1er
05-31-2014, 06:29 PM
In all seriousness i would say he is approaching top 10 already and if he has a normal trajectory over the balance of his career he will be top 5 easily and maybe higher...

for the record... i have never liked Lebron but have tremendous respect for his game and his accomplishments.

That is a fair assessment.

People who have him in the top five already are just plain not seeing the big picture and are most likely blinded by fanboydom

Jeffy25
05-31-2014, 06:29 PM
PER is an unproven theorem and has no general consensus of acceptance amongst experts. Therefore it holds very little credence in a debate. What don't you get about that?

Oh and can you explain the correlation between PER and winning championships? So...just no idea?

Yeah...no clue.

Jeffy25
05-31-2014, 06:33 PM
Are there really any respectable, NEUTRAL, knowledgable hoop fans that have this guy even in the top 5 all time already? All groupies, spiteful "I jock him cuz everybody else hates him" fans, bandwagoners, and strenuous dick riders aside...... most neutral fans can agree he still has like half of a career left before we even rank him right?

I'm not sure if I'm respectable or knowledgable.

But I'm def neutral. The heat and Lebron mean nothing more to me than Jordan, bird, magic, Kobe, Duncan, Garnett etc.

I don't have any favorite players or even a favorite team.

I don't think he is inside top 10 yet, but I think he will be soon (in terms if his career ended today, where would he rank? I've got him in that 10-15 range I believe).



Lebron is a beast, on his way to potentially becoming the best ever.

He could also age poorly or retire young and he may never reach top 5.

Guy isn't done yet.

But he certainly has the potential to catch Jordan.

ATX
05-31-2014, 06:34 PM
Are there really any respectable, NEUTRAL, knowledgable hoop fans that have this guy even in the top 5 all time already? All groupies, spiteful "I jock him cuz everybody else hates him" fans, bandwagoners, and strenuous dick riders aside...... most neutral fans can agree he still has like half of a career left before we even rank him right?

I have him after this season in the top 10. I have never stated that he's already in the top 5, though I have been on record several times stating he's clearly on a path to finish his career on Mt. Rushmore, and probably top 3. His accolades and stats warrant top 10 conversation currently and it's fairly easy to project out that his #'s will put him inside the top 5.

bucketss
05-31-2014, 06:34 PM
LeBron and the 7 Dwarfs(aka refs) will always be below MJ, no one will ever beat MJ EVER!!!!

lollllll you have to make excuses for lebrons greatness, he really is the g.o.a.t

Vinny642
05-31-2014, 06:37 PM
Lol, the East might be one of, if not the easiest conferences in pro sports.... so NO

Jeffy25
05-31-2014, 06:38 PM
The way Lebron can pass Jordan is by simply being as good as he is today or even getting 10% worse each year, for the next decade.

Jordan's career was somewhat short in comparison if Lebron were to play that long and that much. Lebron would just pass Jordan on way too many areas and would have to be considered the best.

He'd be the top scorer all time, likely have more rings, and certainly have produced more in his career.

He'd be a little worse rate wise, but he would have played so much more that it wouldn't matter.

60,000 minutes of Lebron would have him too high over Jordan.

If Lebron quits around 45k minutes, then I'm sure Jordan will have no problem being considered better always

amos1er
05-31-2014, 06:40 PM
I'm not sure if I'm respectable or knowledgable.

But I'm def neutral. The heat and Lebron mean nothing more to me than Jordan, bird, magic, Kobe, Duncan, Garnett etc.

I don't have any favorite players or even a favorite team.

I don't think he is inside top 10 yet, but I think he will be soon (in terms if his career ended today, where would he rank? I've got him in that 10-15 range I believe).



Lebron is a beast, on his way to potentially becoming the best ever.

He could also age poorly or retire young and he may never reach top 5.

Guy isn't done yet.

But he certainly has the potential to catch Jordan.

:laugh:

Minimal
05-31-2014, 06:41 PM
On a weak team in a legendary Eastern conference with the likes of the C's and Pistons. Who did LeBron have to beat to get to the Finals? Give me a break. The east has been a joke every year for LeBron.
Emm, ok Detroit Pistons Former 2005 NBA Champions (best record in east), Boston Celtics Big 3 with Rondo, 2008 champions, Orlando with Dwight, Bulls with Rose "The MVP" aka the next jordan aka slow don't lie, Indiana Pacers, best defensive team in history?

Lets see MJs playoffs history
1st season 7th seed with 38-44 record (legendary eastern conference?) defeated by Bucks in 1st
2nd season 30-52 record (at the time it was fifth worst record of any team to qualify for the playoffs in NBA history), still made the playoffs, swept by Celtics in 1st round
3rd season 40-42 record, swept by Celtics in 1st
next 3 seasons defeated by Pistons

The thing is Jordan couldn't beat those teams, LeBron fought a lot of great teams in his career, and the difference is, he could beat them with a bunch of scrubs and a scrub coach.

bucketss
05-31-2014, 06:41 PM
Lol, the East might be one of, if not the easiest conferences in pro sports.... so NO

so if the east was equal to the west, lebron > mj correct?

amos1er
05-31-2014, 06:43 PM
The way Lebron can pass Jordan is by simply being as good as he is today or even getting 10% worse each year, for the next decade.

Jordan's career was somewhat short in comparison if Lebron were to play that long and that much. Lebron would just pass Jordan on way too many areas and would have to be considered the best.

He'd be the top scorer all time, likely have more rings, and certainly have produced more in his career.

He'd be a little worse rate wise, but he would have played so much more that it wouldn't matter.

60,000 minutes of Lebron would have him too high over Jordan.

If Lebron quits around 45k minutes, then I'm sure Jordan will have no problem being considered better always

Lol. What are you basing these percentages off of?

I love it when people try to justify their own personal opinions with made up numbers that they try to pass off as being derived from some sort of logical basis.

:facepalm: You earned it.

5ass
05-31-2014, 06:43 PM
Are there really any respectable, NEUTRAL, knowledgable hoop fans that have this guy even in the top 5 all time already? All groupies, spiteful "I jock him cuz everybody else hates him" fans, bandwagoners, and strenuous dick riders aside...... most neutral fans can agree he still has like half of a career left before we even rank him right?
When will you understand that not all people uses the same criteria in their rankings? they put emphasis on some more than the others. There are no clear guidelines. If I value peak performance most I'm putting LeBron in the top 5 no doubt.

Jeffy25
05-31-2014, 06:43 PM
Lol. What are you basing these percentages off of?

I love it when people try to justify their own personal opinions with made up numbers that they try to pass off as being derived from some sort of logical basis.

:facepalm: You earned it.

That a player throughout his 30's could get roughly 10% worse each year?

You wanna tell us what the rest of Lebron's career looks like?

Jamiecballer
05-31-2014, 06:44 PM
Got any actual reasons with any evidence why it's a bad comp?


Here are some comps for ya, instead of just driveling everything you just said...let's put numbers to the test:

All-time

PER
1. Jordan - 27.91
2. James - 27.79

For a frame of reference, third all time is:
Shaq - 26.43

Win Shares All-Time

4. Jordan - 214.02
15. James - 168.54

James will absolutely catch and pass him at this.

Playoffs All-time

PER
1. Jordan - 28.60
2. James - 27.60

Just for frame of reference, 3rd all time is:

Shaq - 26.13

Win Shares, an accumulation value statistic

Playoffs All-Time
1. Jordan - 39.76
4. James - 33.09

Abdul-Jabbar and Duncan are 2 and 3

He's gonna pass them in this.


What proof do you have that Lebron will never catch Jordan?


I don't watch ESPN, and I don't even like Lebron, he seems like a huge douche. But let's be honest about what is being done and what is happening here

Jeffy don't waste your time. He has no interest in fact, only narrative.

amos1er
05-31-2014, 06:45 PM
Yeah...no clue.

Way to defect away from a losing argument in a vain attempt to discredit me instead of owning up to the fact that your point got shot down. An oldie but a goodie I suppose. I've seen it all over the years here. Your not showing me anything new.

amos1er
05-31-2014, 06:46 PM
Jeffy don't waste your time. He has no interest in fact, only narrative.

Oh no, another fanboy who believes that PER is fact.

:laugh:

Oh children.

goingfor28
05-31-2014, 06:46 PM
so if the east was equal to the west, lebron > mj correct?

Obviously not bc lebron wouldn't have had the cakewalk he has if he were facing Memphis, Clippers, and Spurs just to get TO the finals.

amos1er
05-31-2014, 06:47 PM
That a player throughout his 30's could get roughly 10% worse each year?

You wanna tell us what the rest of Lebron's career looks like?

No, because I'm not foolish enough to pretend that I can.

Jeffy25
05-31-2014, 06:47 PM
:laugh:

You don't think it's obviously transparent that you hate Lebron?

Every single NBA forum post of yours I've ever seen is either bashing Lebron, or praising a Laker.

I don't have a favorite NBA team, nor any favorite players.

Lebron, statistically, is a beast.

amos1er
05-31-2014, 06:47 PM
Obviously not bc lebron wouldn't have had the cakewalk he has if he were facing Memphis, Clippers, and Spurs just to get TO the finals.

Finally, someone said something smart.

Jeffy25
05-31-2014, 06:47 PM
No, because I'm not foolish enough to pretend that I can.

So then what's so wrong with my hypothetical exactly?

Lo Porto
05-31-2014, 06:50 PM
Cool. Nobody wins by themselves. Not Jordan not lebron not kobe, but nobody teams up to form a cute trio like Miami either.

How is Jordan, Rodman and Pippen any different than Bosh, LeBron and Wade? Hell, the Bulls had top 3 Euro of the time Toni Kukoc too. Miami doesn't have any other high quality multidimensional players than the big 3. The Bulls had their big three, Harper and Kukoc. Those 2nd three peat teams were more stacked than Miami by far.

Jeffy25
05-31-2014, 06:50 PM
Way to defect away from a losing argument in a vain attempt to discredit me instead of owning up to the fact that your point got shot down. An oldie but a goodie I suppose. I've seen it all over the years here. Your not showing me anything new.

I asked you a very simple question at the beginning of this little back and forth.


You deflected. Why would I go down whatever logic you want to create for an argument when you can't even answer a very simple question?

Answer these three very simple, and direct questions, and then I'll proceed with you


How do you calculate PER?

What makes it subjective and worthless to you?

Why should it be thrown out?


Don't answer them, then why would I carry on?

amos1er
05-31-2014, 06:52 PM
You don't think it's obviously transparent that you hate Lebron?

Every single NBA forum post of yours I've ever seen is either bashing Lebron, or praising a Laker.

I don't have a favorite NBA team, nor any favorite players.

Lebron, statistically, is a beast.

Yup, just keep on deflecting.

I'm just keeping it real bro. I never deny being a Laker fan or the fact that I don't like Lebron. Thats the difference between you and I. I admit my bias and don't pretend to cover it up. I am self honest and therefore can admit when I am wrong. If you show me something tangible, I will acknowledge it. Please don't pretend that you are neutral, because no one is buying it. Even the most "neutral" and respected judges on the Supreme Court are susceptible to human bias. As a human being it's virtually impossible not to be. So please stop trying to convince everyone (including yourself) that your above it all.

Jamiecballer
05-31-2014, 06:55 PM
http://swishnba.com/tag/lebron-vs-jordan-stats-2013/



There it is Lebronites. So sorry to ruin your day but there is just no hope for your little hero in terms of being in the same sentence as Jordan. Just forget it. Game over... Close thread.

Thats not very convincing. All that data and not one piece of data pertaining to efficiency, team wins or decision making.

Jeffy25
05-31-2014, 06:55 PM
Ok Lebronites, I'll make you a deal...

When Lebron wins MVP, DPOY, a scoring title, a steals title, and a finals MVP in the same season, we can have this discussion. Until then. :shush:


I'll tell you somethings that MJ never did: he wasn't the team's leading scorer/rebounder/assist man and guarded the other team's best player (positions 1-5) all at the same time. Lebron does that. Lebron is also a better role model. Lebron will surpass Jordan.

Was said at the beginning of the thread.

Minimal
05-31-2014, 06:56 PM
Obviously not bc lebron wouldn't have had the cakewalk he has if he were facing Memphis, Clippers, and Spurs just to get TO the finals.
Ok lets pretend Miami is playing in the West, they would still beat all those teams with maybe exception of Spurs, because they are that good... who do they meet in the finals? Pacers, Brooklyn? What would be your next excuse? Ohh yeah they played a ****** team in the finals every year, so therefore his rings mean nothing. You don't catch the point here, and it doesn't matter in which conference they play, Miami is the best team in NBA, and the only team that could stop them is Spurs, you know why? Because Miami is that good, LeBron is that good, they are head and shoulders over everyone else.

Jeffy25
05-31-2014, 06:57 PM
Yup, just keep on deflecting.

I'm just keeping it real bro. I never deny being a Laker fan or the fact that I don't like Lebron. Thats the difference between you and I. I admit my bias and don't pretend to cover it up. I am self honest and therefore can admit when I am wrong. If you show me something tangible, I will acknowledge it. Please don't pretend that you are neutral, because no one is buying it. Even the most "neutral" and respected judges on the Supreme Court are susceptible to human bias. As a human being it's virtually impossible not to be. So please stop trying to convince everyone (including yourself) that your above it all.

I don't doubt that there is inherent bias.

But I don't have any favorite players or teams. I don't root for anybody in the NBA.

I'm a St. Louis Cardinals fan, and it affects my views on baseball. But the NBA, I'm just a fan of the sport and the game. No one individually or team wise.

Doesn't mean I'm above anything, I just don't root for or against anybody.

goingfor28
05-31-2014, 06:57 PM
How is Jordan, Rodman and Pippen any different than Bosh, LeBron and Wade? Hell, the Bulls had top 3 Euro of the time Toni Kukoc too. Miami doesn't have any other high quality multidimensional players than the big 3. The Bulls had their big three, Harper and Kukoc. Those 2nd three peat teams were more stacked than Miami by far.

Did Jordan Pippen Rodman all hit FA together and decide they were going to team up? Noooooo bc Jordan wanted to beat the best

amos1er
05-31-2014, 06:59 PM
I asked you a very simple question at the beginning of this little back and forth.


You deflected. Why would I go down whatever logic you want to create for an argument when you can't even answer a very simple question?

Answer these three very simple, and direct questions, and then I'll proceed with you




Don't answer them, then why would I carry on?

Why would I answer you on how to calculate PER??? Can't you just google it then wiki it yourself. Thats all I would do. It's a complete waste of time.

I already stated several times (don't know why you haven't acknowledged it yet) that it's subjective and worthless (I never actually said those words btw) because it's not a proven theory nor is using it in a debate going to prove any kind of fact. It's just your opinion, backed up by another mans opinion who justified it through a statistical formula. A formula that has no general acceptance in the basketball community or any factual premise.

Not saying they should be completely thrown out, just that they hold very little bearing in settling a debate on overall greatness. Stating the fact that PER is not a fact. That and it can't prove anything and there is no correlation tied to winning.

Lo Porto
05-31-2014, 07:00 PM
Jordan is not a god people. He was a damn good player. But he was just a player. He had flaws and it is very obvious that he had to have Phil and Pippen to win anything.

But still, Jordan has a greater legacy. But at age 29, LeBron has had a better career than Jordan at 29. If he wins title #3, he is on his way to MJ status or further.

Jamiecballer
05-31-2014, 07:03 PM
Hey Jeffy, Can you please explain to me the correlation between having a high PER and winning championships???

Lol.

I would love to see you try and take this one on.

There isn't one because teams win championships numbnuts. .

Lo Porto
05-31-2014, 07:05 PM
Did Jordan Pippen Rodman all hit FA together and decide they were going to team up? Noooooo bc Jordan wanted to beat the best

Jordan decide to come back because of that super team. Regardless, Jordan never won without his wingman. LBJ's run to the finals with Cleveland was tougher than anything Jordan ever did.

Cal827
05-31-2014, 07:08 PM
If Jordan was such a good player, then why couldn't he lead those Wizards teams into the playoffs?

He even had an all-star next to him in Jerry Stackhouse next to him, in the weak Eastern Conference.

Freaking all Lebron had was Moe **** Williams, and he still won 60+ games.



:D:D

Jeffy25
05-31-2014, 07:10 PM
Why would I answer you on how to calculate PER??? Can't you just google it then wiki it yourself. Thats all I would do. It's a complete waste of time.

I already stated several times (don't know why you haven't acknowledged it yet) that it's subjective and worthless (I never actually said those words btw) because it's not a proven theory nor is using it in a debate going to prove any kind of fact. It's just your opinion, backed up by another mans opinion who justified it through a statistical formula. A formula that has no general acceptance in the basketball community or any factual premise.

Not saying they should be completely thrown out, just that they hold very little bearing in settling a debate on overall greatness. Stating the fact that PER is not a fact. That and it can't prove anything and there is no correlation tied to winning.

It's an individual stat, no individual stat has any correlation to winning.

What is used to calculate PER are valuable individual components from different statistics that you want players to be good at doing.

And again, we are comparing two individuals, greatness is between the two individuals not their teams.

Every topic about chips, players who helped, conferences and otherwise do not matter.

What did the player do while on the court that they had control over. That's the basis for any player comparison.

Jamiecballer
05-31-2014, 07:10 PM
Oh no, another fanboy who believes that PER is fact.

:laugh:

Oh children.

No not PER. Facts. If you put your bias aside the actual numbers are incredible. But you would need to be willing to actually see instead or relying on a very tired script that no longer fits with reality.

Lo Porto
05-31-2014, 07:10 PM
If Jordan was such a good player, then why couldn't he lead those Wizards teams into the playoffs?

He even had an all-star next to him in Jerry Stackhouse next to him, in the weak Eastern Conference.

Freaking all Lebron had was Moe **** Williams, and he still won 60+ games.



:D:D
I always thought that was funny. MJ couldn't lead the Wiz to a winning record or the playoffs. Don't use age either - Stockton and Malone were older in a tougher conference getting home court.

Jordan was damn good but not a god despite what the media has shoved down your throat for years.

Jeffy25
05-31-2014, 07:11 PM
Jordan decide to come back because of that super team. Regardless, Jordan never won without his wingman. LBJ's run to the finals with Cleveland was tougher than anything Jordan ever did.

And it's not like the bulls were horrible without him

P&GRealist
05-31-2014, 07:14 PM
If Jordan was such a good player, then why couldn't he lead those Wizards teams into the playoffs?

He even had an all-star next to him in Jerry Stackhouse next to him, in the weak Eastern Conference.

Freaking all Lebron had was Moe **** Williams, and he still won 60+ games.



:D:D

Don't forget, he had Rip Hamilton the yr before prior to trading him to Detroit for Stack. And MJ had a former #1 pick on his team and still couldn't make the playoffs.

Jeffy25
05-31-2014, 07:14 PM
And it's not like the bulls were horrible without him

They won 55 games without Jordan using A dude from Italy.

P&GRealist
05-31-2014, 07:14 PM
I always thought that was funny. MJ couldn't lead the Wiz to a winning record or the playoffs. Don't use age either - Stockton and Malone were older in a tougher conference getting home court.

Jordan was damn good but not a god despite what the media has shoved down your throat for years.

Exactly!

Minimal
05-31-2014, 07:16 PM
And it's not like the bulls were horrible without him
Yeah, like we keep forgetting Clevelands record after LeBron left. 19-63. Before he was drafted there there 17-65. LeBron made a championship contender out of that scrub team.

Cal827
05-31-2014, 07:25 PM
Yeah, like we keep forgetting Clevelands record after LeBron left. 19-63. Before he was drafted there there 17-65. LeBron made a championship contender out of that scrub team.

Yup.

The Bulls were still title contenders without Jordan. If it weren't for a ticky-tack foul, the would have ousted the Knicks and likely represent the East again without MJ.

Cleveland lost an NBA record 26 straight games the year after he left.

Pippen had MVP like numbers in MJ's absence

People were wondering if Mo Williams was worthy of an NBA roster once Lebron Left lol

TheMightyHumph
05-31-2014, 07:29 PM
Yup.

The Bulls were still title contenders without Jordan. If it weren't for a ticky-tack foul, the would have ousted the Knicks and likely represent the East again without MJ.

Cleveland lost an NBA record 26 straight games the year after he left.

Pippen had MVP like numbers in MJ's absence

People were wondering if Mo Williams was worthy of an NBA roster once Lebron Left lol

And Wade won a Title without Lebron

Slug3
05-31-2014, 07:33 PM
Cool. Nobody wins by themselves. Not Jordan not lebron not kobe, but nobody teams up to form a cute trio like Miami either.

Rodman/Pippen/Jordan all teamed up to do it. Who the F cares.

amos1er
05-31-2014, 07:46 PM
There isn't one because teams win championships numbnuts. .

Funny how you say that now, yet you all ride Lebron's dick over making 4 finals in a row. LMAO!

amos1er
05-31-2014, 07:53 PM
Rodman/Pippen/Jordan all teamed up to do it. Who the F cares.

Did they collude and take less money? No.

Was Pippen a former Finals MVP, multiple All-NBA first team, All-Defensive first team and top three player in the NBA before he played with MJ? No.

Was Rodman an All-Star capable of averaging 23/12 as the franchise player of a team? No.

Was Rodman in his prime when he teamed up with MJ? No.

Was the talent and competition in the eastern conference the same as it was when MJ played. No.

Did MJ have the greatest Wing and big-man in his conference as running mates? No.

Did MJ take the easy way out and team up with his greatest conference rivals? No.

Is it foolish to compare Lebron to MJ? Yes.

amos1er
05-31-2014, 07:57 PM
Yup.

The Bulls were still title contenders without Jordan. If it weren't for a ticky-tack foul, the would have ousted the Knicks and likely represent the East again without MJ.

Cleveland lost an NBA record 26 straight games the year after he left.

Pippen had MVP like numbers in MJ's absence

People were wondering if Mo Williams was worthy of an NBA roster once Lebron Left lol

Wade was a finals MVP and multiple time top ranking MVP candidate before playing with Lebron.

Pippen wasn't even in the conversation for MVP until he played with Jordan. Pippen credits all those practices going one-on-one and guarding Jordan as the main factor that made him the player he became. Wade cannot make those claims about Lebron. Jordan made his teammates better while Lebron's All-Star hall of fame sidekicks all took significant dips statistically sacrificing their games to adjust to him.

See the difference here?

ATX
05-31-2014, 08:01 PM
Funny how you say that now, yet you all ride Lebron's dick over making 4 finals in a row. LMAO!

The Heat have made 4 Finals appearances consecutively, but let's not act as if James isn't the main reason for such success. What is it with you and James' dick?? Anyways, I was a Heat fan long before James ever came to Miami. It's a great franchise achievement, and absolutely nothing you say can take that away from the Heat organization or their fans. It's just sad that you feel so compelled to make it your full-time job to discredit such a historic achievement.

amos1er
05-31-2014, 08:05 PM
No not PER. Facts.

Oh you mean like the fact that MJ is better and far more accomplished in all facets of the game and winning. Or the fact that it would take a miracle for Lebron to catch up with him legacy wise at this point. Those facts good enough for you? :cool:


If you put your bias aside the actual numbers are incredible.

You mean like these numbers...

http://swishnba.com/tag/lebron-vs-jordan-stats-2013/


LeBron James has just won his second straight NBA Championship and his second straight Finals MVP, and as always, the comparisons to Michael Jordan are at an all time high so let’s take a look at how these two player’s careers stack up against each other 10 years in respectively.

First of all why did I choose to compare the two 10 years in? Why not both at age 28 (the age that LeBron is now). The answer is that it would be unfair. LeBron entered the league at aged 18 and therefore by age 28 he would have played 10 seasons in the NBA. Jordan on the other hand entered the league at age 21 and therefore at age 28 he would have only played 7 years in the league, in fact at age 28 Jordan has played almost 200 games less than LeBron (589 compared to 765 for James).

MVPs:

MJ: 3 – finished 2nd twice and 3rd twice

LBJ: 4 – finished 2nd once and 3rd once

Championships:

MJ: 3 in 3 tries

LBJ: 2 in 4 tries

Finals MVPs:

MJ: 3 – MJ became the first person in NBA history to win three consecutive finals MVP awards, a feat later repeated by himself and achieved by Shaquille O’Neal

LBJ: 2

Scoring Titles:

MJ: 7

LBJ: 1

Steals Titles:

MJ: 3

LBJ: 0

Rookie of the Year:

MJ: 1

LBJ: 1

Defensive player of the year:

MJ: 1 – The year MJ won DPOY he also led the NBA in steals per game, points per game and won MVP

LBJ: 0

Scoring Title and MVP in the same season:

MJ: 3

LBJ: 0

MVP and Finals MVP in the same season:

MJ: 2

LBJ: 2

Scoring Title and Steals Title in the same season:

MJ: 3

LBJ: 0

Scoring Title, MVP and Finals MVP in the same season:

MJ: 2

LBJ: 0

Scoring Title and Finals MVP in the same season:

MJ: 3

LBJ: 0

Games Played

MJ: 684 (MJ missed the majority of his second season with a broken foot and retired in 1993 and came back for the last 17 games of the 1994-1995 season)

LBJ: 765

Minutes Played:

MJ: 26,510

LBJ: 30,374

Regular season averages:

Points per game:

MJ: 32.2

LBJ: 27.6

Assists per game:

MJ: 5.9

LBJ: 6.9

Rebounds per game:

MJ: 6.3

LBJ: 7.3

Steals per game:

MJ: 2.7

LBJ: 1.7

Blocks per game:

MJ: 1.0

LBJ: 0.8

FG%

MJ: 51.4%

LBJ: 49.0%

3PT%

MJ: 30.7%

LBJ: 33.7%

FT%

MJ: 84.5%

LBJ: 74.7%

NBA Finals Breakdown and Comparison to the Regular Season:

A player’s numbers in an NBA Final should increase / be inflated due to the fact that only a maximum of 7 games can be played compared to a maximum of 82 games in the regular season and due to the fact that a player should raise their level of play when they get to the NBA Finals (due to the stakes being higher)

LeBron James:

2007

NBA Final: – 22ppg, 7.0rpg, 6.8apg, 1.0spg, 0.5bpg, 35.6% FG, 20.0% 3PT, 69.0% FT

Regular Season: 27.3ppg, 6.7rpg, 6.0apg, 1.6spg, 0.7bpg, 47.6% FG, 31.9% 3PT, 69.8% FT

Conclusion: LeBron’s play dropped when it pertained to: scoring (FG%, 3PT% and FT%), steals and blocks, however it increased when it came to rebounding and passing.

2011

NBA Final: 17.8ppg, 7.2rpg, 6.8apg, 1.7spg, 0.5bpg, 47.8% FG, 32.1% 3PT, 60.0% FT

Regular Season: 26.7ppg, 7.5rpg, 7.0apg, 1.6spg, 0.6spg, 51.0% FG, 33.0% 3PT, 75.9% FT

Conclusion: LeBron’s play dropped when it pertained to: scoring (dramatically), FG%, FT% and 3PT%, additionally, despite his passive nature in this series, his assists declined as well as his rebounds, and blocks. His steals increased. Defensively LeBron was poor this series as those who have watched the series will know that Jason Terry (who actually out-scored LBJ – 18.0ppg on 49.4%FG and 39.3% 3PT) was often able to score and get to the basket easily.

2012

NBA Final: 28.6ppg, 10.2rpg, 7.4apg, 1.6spg, 0.4bpg, 47.2% FG, 18.8% 3PT, 82.6% FT

Regular Season: 27.1, 7.9rpg, 6.2apg, 1.9spg, 0.8bpg, 53.1% FG, 36.2% 3PT, 77.1% FT

Conclusion: LeBron’s points per game increased however his FG% fell by approximately 6%, his 3PT% also decreased by almost 20% however his FT shooting increased. His rebounding and passing increased however his steals per game and blocks per game decreased. Defensively LeBron was sound in this series although some might bring up that Durant (the opposing SF) shot 55% and averaged 30ppg for the finals.

2013

NBA Final: 25.3ppg, 10.9rpg, 7.0apg, 2.3spg, 0.9bpg, 44.7% FG, 35.3% 3PT, 79.5% FT

Regular Season: 26.8ppg, 8.0rpg, 7.3apg, 1.7spg, 0.9bpg, 56.5% FG, 40.6% 3PT, 75.3% FT

Conclusion: LeBron’s scoring dropped in points per game, FG% and 3PT%. His steals and rebounding increased as well as FT shooting. However, his passing decreased slightly. In my opinion this was by far his best finals series defensively as he showed great versatility in being able to guard Tony Parker in critical moments of various games, most noticeably in towards the end of game 6 and 7. Those that have watched the series will know that scoring wise, LeBron under-performed significantly for the first 3 games (failing to score over 20 points in either of them), however, he redeemed himself in the remaining 4 games.

LeBron’s Finals averages:

(4 NBA Finals – 22 games): 23.2ppg, 43.8 FG%, 9.0rpg, 7.0apg, 1.72spg, 0.59bpg, 26.5 3PT %, 72.7% FT

Overall conclusion: When it comes to the NBA Finals LeBron’s scoring and overall efficiency has decreased. He has raised his level of play when it pertains to rebounding and has continued to be an effective passer. Overall defensively he has shown some inconsistency but has excelled in the later NBA Finals series’.

Michael Jordan:

1991

NBA Final: 31.2ppg, 6.6rpg, 11.4apg, 2.8spg, 1.4bpg, 55% FG, 50% 3PT, 84.8% FT

Regular Season: 31.5ppg (led the league), 6.0rpg, 5.5apg, 2.7spg, 1.0bpg, 53.9% FG, 31.2% 3PT, 85.1% FT

Conclusion: In the finals Jordan raised his level of play when it pertained to: scoring, shooting (FG%, FT and 3PT) (his points per game decreased slightly), rebounding, passing (which doubled!), stealing, blocking and also defensively. Pippen did guard Magic for extended periods due to Jordan getting into foul trouble (games 1 and 2 of the series), however overall Jordan’s energy and effort on defence increased.

1992

NBA final: 35.8ppg, 4.8rpg, 6.5apg, 1.7spg, 0.3bpg, 52.6% FG, 42.9 3PT%, 89.1% FT

Regular Season: 30.1ppg (led the league), 6.4rpg, 6.1apg, 2.3spg, 0.9bpg, 51.9% FG, .270 3PT%, 83.2% FT

Conclusion: In the finals Jordan raised his level of play when it pertained to: scoring, shooting (FG%, FT and 3PT – he set an NBA record 6 made three pointers in one half in game 1 of this series), passing and blocking. His steals and rebounding declined however those that have watched this series will know that this is probably Jordan’s best series defensively. He took Clyde Drexler (who finished second in MVP voting) out of his game offensively, so much so that Drexler’s shooting %’s fell from 47% FG and 33.7% 3PT in the regular season to 40.7% FG and 15.0% 3PT in the Finals.

1993

NBA final: 41.0ppg (NBA Finals record – which still stands today), 8.5rpg, 6.3apg, 1.7spg, 0.7bpg, 50.8% FG, 40.0% 3PT, 69.4% FT

Regular season: 32.6ppg (led the league), 6.7rpg, 5.5apg, 2.8spg (led the league), 0.7bpg, 49.5% FG, 35.2% 3PT, 83.7% FT

Conclusion: In the finals Jordan raised his level of play when it pertained to: scoring (dramatically), FG%, 3PT% rebounding and passing. His level of play dropped when it came to steals and FT% and stayed the same when it came to blocks.

Overall Finals averages:

(3 NBA Finals – 17 games): 36.0ppg, 53.06 FG%, 7.2rpg, 8.06apg, 2.06spg, 0.8bpg, 44.3 3PT %, 81.1 FT%

Overall conclusion: When it came to the NBA Finals Jordan raised his overall level of play both offensively and defensively. While MJ was a prolific scorer, he showed the ability to adapt or adjust his game to different situations and increase his passing and/or rebounding numbers while still scoring at an increased rate.

Conclusion:

Michael Jordan – (3 NBA Finals – 17 games): 36.0ppg, 53.06 FG%, 7.2rpg, 8.06apg, 2.06spg, 0.8bpg, 44.3 3PT %, 81.1 FT%

LeBron James – (4 NBA Finals – 22 games): 23.2ppg, 43.8 FG%, 9.0rpg, 7.0apg, 1.72spg, 0.59bpg, 26.5 3PT %, 72.7% FT

In the NBA Finals after their first 10 years Jordan has higher: scoring, FG%, 3PT%, FT% and assist averages, as well as having played better, more consistent defence. LeBron has the advantage when it pertains to rebounding.

Jordan faced the: 5th, 3rd and 9th best defence in the NBA, on average that’s the 5.6th best defence in the league.

LeBron faced the: 2nd, 8th, 11th and 3rd best defence in the NBA, on average that’s the 6th best defence in the league.

Perimeter defenders and teams in Jordan’s era were allowed to defend much more physically due to being able to hand-check, the absence of the 3 second rule etc.

Additionally MJ matched up against Magic and Drexler in 91 and 92 respectively, both of whom finished second in MVP voting that year (due to MJ winning MVP). In 93 MJ faced (but didn’t match up against) Charles Barkley, who won MVP that year (MJ finished third behind Hakeem).

In 2007 Duncan finished 4th in MVP voting and Parker finished 15th, in 2011 Dirk finished 6th in MVP voting, in 2012 Durant finished 2nd (LeBron won MVP and matched up against Durant) and in 2013 Parker finished 6th in MVP voting.

Overall, after 10 years in the NBA, Jordan had dominated the league at a higher level than LeBron from both an offensive and defensive stand point and had raised his level of play in all areas on a more consistent basis in the NBA final better than LeBron had.

Notice how these are actual numbers based of factual data unlike PER which is a statistical theorem. I do hope that you are smart enough to understand this.


But you would need to be willing to actually see instead or relying on a very tired script that no longer fits with reality.

What tired script would that be? That Lebron isn't nearly on the same level as MJ. I think anyone with any sort of basic knowledge of the game that isn't a blind myopic fanboy agrees with that.

Vinylman
05-31-2014, 08:06 PM
The Heat have made 4 Finals appearances consecutively, but let's not act as if James isn't the main reason for such success. What is it with you and James' dick?? Anyways, I was a Heat fan long before James ever came to Miami. It's a great franchise achievement, and absolutely nothing you say can take that away from the Heat organization or their fans. It's just sad that you feel so compelled to make it your full-time job to discredit such a historic achievement.

historic?

oh the hyperbole

amos1er
05-31-2014, 08:08 PM
There isn't one because teams win championships numbnuts. .

Oh how clever. A childish insult. Shows me the level of the person I am dealing with. I'm done with you now. Good day.

bucketss
05-31-2014, 08:15 PM
Oh how clever. A childish insult. Shows me the level of the person I am dealing with. I'm done with you now. Good day.

you've been in this thread all day LOL i mean if this is really such a laughable matter than surely you wouldn't be wasting this much of your time.

ATX
05-31-2014, 08:16 PM
historic?

oh the hyperbole

Only two franchises have ever achieved this, and not in 27 years...How is acknowledging the achievement an exaggeration?

Jamiecballer
05-31-2014, 08:17 PM
Funny how you say that now, yet you all ride Lebron's dick over making 4 finals in a row. LMAO!

I don't.

ATX
05-31-2014, 08:17 PM
Oh how clever. A childish insult. Shows me the level of the person I am dealing with. I'm done with you now. Good day.

And your go to "Dick riding" isn't childish?

Jamiecballer
05-31-2014, 08:19 PM
Oh you mean like the fact that MJ is better and far more accomplished in all facets of the game and winning. Or the fact that it would take a miracle for Lebron to catch up with him legacy wise at this point. Those facts good enough for you? :cool:



You mean like these numbers...

http://swishnba.com/tag/lebron-vs-jordan-stats-2013/



Notice how these are actual numbers based of factual data unlike PER which is a statistical theorem. I do hope that you are smart enough to understand this.



What tired script would that be? That Lebron isn't nearly on the same level as MJ. I think anyone with any sort of basic knowledge of the game that isn't a blind myopic fanboy agrees with that.

I don't know why people even bother with you. You've got a child's understanding of the game. You haven't advanced your understanding of the game beyond simple box score stats lmao

Jamiecballer
05-31-2014, 08:22 PM
Oh how clever. A childish insult. Shows me the level of the person I am dealing with. I'm done with you now. Good day.

LMAO you responded to this post ten minutes ago and now you come back to it and respond again?

You ARE quick.

sammyvine
05-31-2014, 08:24 PM
Is Lebron even better than Duncan?

hidalgo
05-31-2014, 08:24 PM
Hey FB,
Pretty good post.
Prime Pippen was way better than LeBron's post-Prime DWade (so MJ had more help there EASILY);
Prime Rodman was the best pure-rebounder and a great defender (better fit for MJ; than Bosh is for LeBron)
PJax was the better coach than Spo (so far).

MJ's/Bulls Level Of League-Wide Competition:

Charlotte Hornets 1988-89 20-62 23,172 104.5 113.0
Miami Heat 1988-89 15-67 14,945 97.8 109.0
Minnesota Timberwolves 1989-90 22-60 26,160 95.2 99.4
Orlando Magic 1989-90 18-64 15.060 110.9 119.8
Toronto Raptors 1995-96 21-61 23,179 97.5 105.0
Vancouver Grizzlies 1995-96 15-67 17,183 89.8 99.8

CHECK THIS OUT! Jordan's Bulls Dominated The Last Two WEAKEST PERIODS IN NBA HISTORY!
Right before the first 3-peat, 4 new teams came in and averaged 19 wins the year or two before.
The very year of the start of the 2nd repeat: 2 new teams came in and averaged 18 wins that very year.

In the cases of the first repeat, those four expansion teams continued to suck big time all 3 years.
In the case of the 2nd repeat, the first FOUR expansion teams STILL sucked, and the newer ones sucked big time.

So, PLEASE, get over this myth that MJ faced superior competition to LBJ; much less far-superior competition.
IN FACT, MJ FACED THE WEAKEST NBA-COMPETITION IN THE LAST 40 YEARS; AND LEBRON'S IS MUCH TOUGHER COMPETITION (The NBA hasn't expanded inwhat do those new teams have to do with anything? were they in the playoffs for MJ to beat on & get a free pass? no. so they're irrelevant.

and the bad boy Pistons won 2 titles with 2 new expansion teams each year. nobody give them shht for that, but if the Bulls win years after when some of those team have gotten good by then(magic, hornets, heat) then somehow it's held against him(yet most of them were legit good teams by then, not the punching bags of the bad boys era). also the Bulls beat the Bad Boys, who were going for a 3 peat in the ECF(& haters wanna say they were old, lolz @ that, actually look & research & you'll see they weren't an old team, & everyone was there, no one missing. isiah, dumars, rodman, laimbeer, aguire, the microwave, salley, edwards. they just finally played the Bulls in their prime(grant & pippen hitting their prime in 1991)

then they beat the Lakers with a great roster. Magic, Worthy, Divac, Byron Scott, AC Green, Sam Perkins, Elden Campbell, Teagle. Magic himself said he was still in his prime in 1991 and his play & 2nd in mvp votes back that up. also when Detroit beat LA, Magic missed basically 2 of the 4 games. game 2 he only played 29 min, injured. game 3 5min. game 4 he missed. nobody calls out the Bad Boys for that, but Worthy misses 1 game(game 5) & people act like he missed the whole series & averaged 2 ppg hobbled. fact is he played great & lead LA in ppg in the 1991 finals about 20 ppg 47%FG in 4 games. in game 5 Elden Campbell scored 21 anyway so he became Worthy for a night, so Worthy missing that game was made up for by Campbell. MJ also guarded Magic about 85% of the series. watch it & you'll see. Pippen guarding Magic the most or virtually all series is urban legend & false. the video proves me right. the full games

the Bulls beat the same 2 teams in the finals as the bad boys did, in the same order. Lakers then Trailblazers.
so they faced the same level of competition as Detroit(but i'd say the 1991 Lakers were better than the 89 Lakers even if 89 had a healthy Magic, which it didn't. and the 1992 trailblazers were better and more experienced than the 1990 Blazers Detriot beat

the 1998 Pacers, 97 or 98 Jazz would beat Miami imo. the Jazz were superteam killers, they killed the Shaq, kobe, eddie jones, van exel, horry, fox, fisher, e campbell, stacked Lakers of 97 & 98. waxed them. beat the Barkley, Olajuwon, Drexler superteam rockets in 97 (& 98 but they weren't nearly as good or as healthy in 98, 97 they were serious threats). the Jazz beat the 1998 Spurs with prime David Robinson, & Tim Duncan. the Jazz would beat Miami now too

the 96-98 Heat would be tough for the now days heat. the 90s knicks were definitely better than now days pacers. 93 Suns, 96 Magic, all no jokes

anyway, i do think Miami will 3 peat & i actually like them, & LeBron. But he's not on MJ's level(but he has clearly passed Kobe) , and the dynasty Bulls would close out this Heat team in 6 with a clutch MJ GW shot. MJ didn't allow game 7s in the finals

MJ never had a bad playoff series. not a 1

sammyvine
05-31-2014, 08:26 PM
this thread is soooo poor lool

its full of lebron, jordan and kobe fan boys getting their pants in a twist. All arguaging with bias rubbish.

raiderfaninTX
05-31-2014, 08:26 PM
Lebron probably is the better player 1 on 1, but when all is said and done unless Lebron retired after this season he is a lock to be top 2. He moves into my top 5 (5) if they win the finals this year top 10 (8) if they don't

P&GRealist
05-31-2014, 08:27 PM
Did they collude and take less money? No.

Was Pippen a former Finals MVP, multiple All-NBA first team, All-Defensive first team and top three player in the NBA before he played with MJ? No.

Was Rodman an All-Star capable of averaging 23/12 as the franchise player of a team? No.

Was Rodman in his prime when he teamed up with MJ? No.

Was the talent and competition in the eastern conference the same as it was when MJ played. No.

Did MJ have the greatest Wing and big-man in his conference as running mates? No.

Did MJ take the easy way out and team up with his greatest conference rivals? No.

Is it foolish to compare Lebron to MJ? Yes.

Damn

sammyvine
05-31-2014, 08:28 PM
Lebron probably is the better player 1 on 1, but when all is said and done unless Lebron retired after this season he is a lock to be top 2. He moves into my top 5 (5) if they win the finals this year top 10 (8) if they don't

looool and what makes you say that?

P&GRealist
05-31-2014, 08:29 PM
this thread is soooo poor lool

its full of lebron, jordan and kobe fan boys getting their pants in a twist. All arguaging with bias rubbish.

Have no worries, by the end of the night, we will all partake in the biggest makeup orgy in prosportsdaily history.

Tittays and suck me palooza 2014!!!!

:jumpy:

raiderfaninTX
05-31-2014, 08:31 PM
looool and what makes you say that?

I believe his defense edges jordan and jordan wass a great defender. I also believe he would back jordan down every time down the court

sammyvine
05-31-2014, 08:33 PM
I believe his defense edges jordan and jordan wass a great defender. I also believe he would back jordan down every time down the court

loool

your 16 arnt you? You probably never saw Jordan play. I think Durant has a better chance 1 vs 1 against Jordan than Lebron does.

raiderfaninTX
05-31-2014, 08:34 PM
loool

your 16 arnt you? You probably never saw Jordan play. I think Durant has a better chance 1 vs 1 against Jordan than Lebron does.

32, damn your durant comment just showed your bias

No more comments sorry

amos1er
05-31-2014, 08:36 PM
It's an individual stat, no individual stat has any correlation to winning.

Agreed. PER is only a very small piece of the pie. A piece that can be easily refuted. Thats why I didn't want to waste my time with an entire argument based solely on it.


What is used to calculate PER are valuable individual components from different statistics that you want players to be good at doing.

There are many models one can make based on the same principles. Doesn't mean that one is better than the other or and all be all. This is precisely why guys like Phil Jackson don't rely on it or similar metrics at all. Far be it for you or I to question the winningest coach of all time. Essentially, PER is not the end all be all. It's not in any way similar to the discovery of the Rosetta Stone much to the chagrin of the Lebron worshiping community.


And again, we are comparing two individuals, greatness is between the two individuals not their teams.

So why then are the Heat fans making such a big deal about this 4 finals made in a row thing and acting like it is cementing Lebron's legacy or something? Better yet, why are championships celebrated in the first place? All I hear from Lebron fans is about how this supposed coming three-peat is going to make Lebron a top ten player of all-time undisputedly. Do you really feel as though if Lebron had stayed on the Cavs and continued to put up great PER seasons and win no championships for the rest of his career that his fans would be proclaiming him on level with Jordan like they are doing now?


Every topic about chips, players who helped, conferences and otherwise do not matter.

So thats how you wanna play it eh. Ok, so then should every player then just go for individual stats and say **** helping their team win games? Would you have said that Barry Bonds was the GOAT because of his home run records? had he not used PED's of course? To me, it's all about doing whatever it takes to help your team win, not put up great individual numbers. I could counter by saying that Kobe or Jordan would both easily dispatch Lebron James in a game of one-on-one. Why can't I use that as a measure of individual dominance if you are using PER. Isn't one-on-one the ultimate measure of who's better individually?


What did the player do while on the court that they had control over. That's the basis for any player comparison.

Durant had better PER than Lebron this season and played a significant amount of games without his wingman in Westbrook and still managed to lead his team to a better record than Lebron's in a far more difficult conference on a far less talented team. Would you then say that Durant has surpassed Lebron as the best player in the NBA based on those facts? According to the logic you just displayed here I could only assume that would be the case.

amos1er
05-31-2014, 08:39 PM
LMAO you responded to this post ten minutes ago and now you come back to it and respond again?

You ARE quick.

Sorry, I actually have a life.

FYL_McVeezy
05-31-2014, 08:40 PM
I'm not a Heat fan or LeBron fan. I don't even want the Heat to win, but I do have to admit 4 straight finals is impressive, and only 3 other teams have done.

Guess what? The "GOAT" Michael Jordan never did it, because he quit either due to gambling issues or Jerry Krause issues which led to his 'retirements'. 4 straight finals is something Jordan never will have over LeBron. LeBron is better than Jordan, there's no doubt about that. He's better than MJ in every facet of the name and now he is going to be a bigger and better winner than MJ. People may not like it, but deal with it, because it's the cold hard truth.

People think it's inconceivable and sacrilegious that anyone can surpass Michael.

Well guess what? iT Already has! I bet in a 7 game series, these Heat would wipe the floor with those Bulls. History is being made haturz, and honestly I have become a Witness.

WE ARE ALL WITNESSES!!!

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Troll

Jamiecballer
05-31-2014, 08:42 PM
Sorry, I actually have a life.

The fact that you are responding multiple times to the same post suggests otherwise.

Jeffy25
05-31-2014, 08:43 PM
Agreed. PER is only a very small piece of the pie. A piece that can be easily refuted. Thats why I didn't want to waste my time with an entire argument based solely on it.



There are many models one can make based on the same principles. Doesn't mean that one is better than the other or and all be all. This is precisely why guys like Phil Jackson don't rely on it or similar metrics at all. Far be it for you or I to question the winningest coach of all time. Essentially, PER is not the end all be all. It's not in any way similar to the discovery of the Rosetta Stone much to the chagrin of the Lebron worshiping community.



So why then are the Heat fans making such a big deal about this 4 finals made in a row thing and acting like it is cementing Lebron's legacy or something? Better yet, why are championships celebrated in the first place? All I hear from Lebron fans is about how this supposed coming three-peat is going to make Lebron a top ten player of all-time undisputedly. Do you really feel as though if Lebron had stayed on the Cavs and continued to put up great PER seasons and win no championships for the rest of his career that his fans would be proclaiming him on level with Jordan like they are doing now?



So thats how you wanna play it eh. Ok, so then should every player then just go for individual stats and say **** helping their team win games? Would you have said that Barry Bonds was the GOAT because of his home run records? had he not used PED's of course? To me, it's all about doing whatever it takes to help your team win, not put up great individual numbers. I could counter by saying that Kobe or Jordan would both easily dispatch Lebron James in a game of one-on-one. Why can't I use that as a measure of individual dominance if you are using PER. Isn't one-on-one the ultimate measure of who's better individually?



Durant had better PER than Lebron this season and played a significant amount of games without his wingman in Westbrook and still managed to lead his team to a better record than Lebron's in a far more difficult conference on a far less talented team. Would you then say that Durant has surpassed Lebron as the best player in the NBA based on those facts? According to the logic you just displayed here I could only assume that would be the case.

I've never said PER was a be-all, end-all

It's another stat, in a laundry list of stats, that show that lebron is clearly on Jordan's level at this point in time.

Regardless if you don't like that he teamed up with two other good players to have a better chance at winning or not, what he does individually on the court is very impressive, and if he continues to do it for a long period of time, he easily could become the best ever. Rate wise he may be a hair below Jordan, but he's easily going to play a lot longer than Jordan. Probably becoming a PF and finding good team mates and wining more chips.

Only way he doesn't do this is if he decides to retire young or he ages poorly (either by injuries or just overall getting worse).

He will eventually accumulate too much and be above everyone else.

PER is only one stat, there are many. They all say the same thing. Lebron dominates on a level very close to the level of production that Jordan used to. They do It in sort of different ways, but they both are creating similar values.


Durant was better than Lebron this year, no question about it. Doesn't mean he is the better player yet. I feel like you need to do it more than just once. Lebron has been a beast for almost a decade, and probably the best player in the game for I guess 5 or so years now. But if it continues, durant could be considered the best in today's game.

In terms of comparing all time greatness, Lebron is on his way to Jordan, no doubt about it. And if he plays long enough, he'll probably catch him.

amos1er
05-31-2014, 08:48 PM
Is Lebron even better than Duncan?

No. Duncan had more impact, has won more, won with less talent, and has better longevity. Duncan is far above Lebron still.

Jeffy25
05-31-2014, 08:48 PM
Agreed. PER is only a very small piece of the pie. A piece that can be easily refuted. Thats why I didn't want to waste my time with an entire argument based solely on it.



There are many models one can make based on the same principles. Doesn't mean that one is better than the other or and all be all. This is precisely why guys like Phil Jackson don't rely on it or similar metrics at all. Far be it for you or I to question the winningest coach of all time. Essentially, PER is not the end all be all. It's not in any way similar to the discovery of the Rosetta Stone much to the chagrin of the Lebron worshiping community.



So why then are the Heat fans making such a big deal about this 4 finals made in a row thing and acting like it is cementing Lebron's legacy or something? Better yet, why are championships celebrated in the first place? All I hear from Lebron fans is about how this supposed coming three-peat is going to make Lebron a top ten player of all-time undisputedly. Do you really feel as though if Lebron had stayed on the Cavs and continued to put up great PER seasons and win no championships for the rest of his career that his fans would be proclaiming him on level with Jordan like they are doing now?



So thats how you wanna play it eh. Ok, so then should every player then just go for individual stats and say **** helping their team win games? Would you have said that Barry Bonds was the GOAT because of his home run records? had he not used PED's of course? To me, it's all about doing whatever it takes to help your team win, not put up great individual numbers. I could counter by saying that Kobe or Jordan would both easily dispatch Lebron James in a game of one-on-one. Why can't I use that as a measure of individual dominance if you are using PER. Isn't one-on-one the ultimate measure of who's better individually?



Durant had better PER than Lebron this season and played a significant amount of games without his wingman in Westbrook and still managed to lead his team to a better record than Lebron's in a far more difficult conference on a far less talented team. Would you then say that Durant has surpassed Lebron as the best player in the NBA based on those facts? According to the logic you just displayed here I could only assume that would be the case.

Also, to the team winning affect.

No individual can win, it's too much of a team game.

doing well in certain individual factors is how you help your team win. They are measurable, they are discussed.

It's even worse in baseball. Doesn't matter what bonds did, he isn't pitching for his team or playing the other 8 defensive positions and other 8 spots in the lineup. No player in baseball will ever have enough affect to control his teams ability to win.

Many of the greatest to ever play the game have never won a World Series, including bonds and Ted Williams. Just too far out of their control.

Basketball is less so like that. But in baseball, it's much worse. Rings in baseball have absolutely zero measurement when people discuss player comps. Nobody ever brings them up in any debate, they hold no value in player comps. Bonds put up some of the best seasons baseball has ever seen in the early 00's, and in 2 of those 4 awesome years, the giants didn't even make the playoffs.....again 4 of like the 6 best baseball seasons ever in the history of the game, and they don't even make the playoffs in 2 of them. It's the way the game is built, way too much of a team game.

bucketss
05-31-2014, 08:49 PM
Sorry, I actually have a life.

u been in this thread all day.... little breaks don't mean u have a life.

Jeffy25
05-31-2014, 08:51 PM
No. Duncan had more impact, has won more, won with less talent, and has better longevity. Duncan is far above Lebron still.

Duncan has better longevity than Lebron?

Lebron is only 29

Pretty sure Duncan has played less games over the last 10 years.

bagwell368
05-31-2014, 08:51 PM
LeBron just put Bird behind him, he's got a ways to go to be talking Jordan.

hidalgo
05-31-2014, 09:06 PM
MJ would beat LeBron or Durant 1 on 1. he's not the all time ppg leader in BOTH the regular season & playoffs in a tougher defensive era for nothing.

him & LeBron are about equals defensively, but MJ would blow past LeBron far easier than LeBron could get by him, and MJ's downright sick footwork & Olajuwon-esque post game mixed with the best ball fake ever & a silky smooth jumper & best fadeaway ever. all that would frustrate LeBron & give him fits. MJ would stay in front of LeBron guarding him & give him long contested jumpes, & poke the ball lose a few times for key steals. then there's MJ's insane competitive spirit, & knack for hitting clutch jumpers in the biggest moments. MJ would beat LeBron

Durant would come closer, but he couldn't stop MJ from scoring, & MJ could stop him here & there

Trueblue2
05-31-2014, 09:24 PM
:laugh:

MJ was also 6 for 6 in the finals and never had to team up with super friends to win. And didn't have a totally free ride to the finals ever

Not defending the op's argument but pippen got the bulls to the ecf (in a much tougher east) and was in serious consideration as the MVP. Take lebron off the heat amd do you see wade or bosh doing that?

NBA_Starter
05-31-2014, 09:32 PM
First of all, who said this?

hidalgo
05-31-2014, 09:35 PM
Not defending the op's argument but pippen got the bulls to the ecf (in a much tougher east) and was in serious consideration as the MVP. Take lebron off the heat amd do you see wade or bosh doing that?
1994 Bulls lost in the 2nd round, not ECF. the ECF was one of the Knicks/Pacers classics

sammyvine
05-31-2014, 09:38 PM
i also think Jordan is mentally tougher than Durant and lebron. That counts a lot in basketball

HuRRiCaNeS324
05-31-2014, 10:23 PM
No. Duncan had more impact, has won more, won with less talent, and has better longevity. Duncan is far above Lebron still.

Ummmmmmmmmmm Yea.... No....

Impact wise you are completely and utterly off base. How the hell does Duncan impact the game more than Lebron? Lebron can cover all five positions and play all five positions. He can score 30 or drop 15 dimes while being covered by the best defender every game. He instantly makes everyone better by just being on the court.

Longetivity? Lol Lebron is an ironman who will play close to 20 years in this league barring injury.

Less talent? Umm you know Duncan has consistently played with HOF by his side right? Tony and Manu are HOF who he's played with for pretty much his entire career unlike Lebron who played with garbage for 6 years. Not to mention he started off his career with one of the best big men. Also, Duncan has always has tremedous role players and the greatest coach ever to use them perfectly.

Duncan has won more, but for now. We'll see were Lebron is by the end of his career, but i'm sure he'll end up with more than 4.

jerellh528
05-31-2014, 10:30 PM
Lol ^

HuRRiCaNeS324
05-31-2014, 10:32 PM
lol ^

DemarDerozan
05-31-2014, 10:50 PM
In 3-4 years this discussion will be over. Just like it was for Kobe when he hit 33- 34. Maybe sooner if the Heat continue to decline or Lebron suffers any moderate to severe injury (unlikely due to the pussified brand of ball being played in this era.)

Bron has maybe 1-2 years left of his prime. And that's all she wrote.

KD has already surpassed him as the best player in the league.

His accolades are impressive. But he has had watered down conference competition in the East x 2 years. He can thank Ray Allen for on chip and a shortened season for the other. The stats do lie when you are playing against such weak competition on a consistent basis.

He had his look at being a potential GOAT. But that ended when he took the easy way out by teaming up with two perrenial superstars who were also up in thier primes.

No doubt HOF. Maybe top 5-10 depending on the list. But a lot of his achievements should have this attached *.

DemarDerozan
05-31-2014, 10:52 PM
Oh and go back to your hole OP. This is still a ridiculous conversation that only a new school cHeat fan would start.

DemarDerozan
05-31-2014, 10:52 PM
No. Duncan had more impact, has won more, won with less talent, and has better longevity. Duncan is far above Lebron still.

This as well.

king4day
05-31-2014, 11:13 PM
The argument has to be, is LeBron better than Magic. So many differences in their physiques.

MJ's teams had a tougher east to go through anyway.

DemarDerozan
05-31-2014, 11:13 PM
1994 Bulls lost in the 2nd round, not ECF. the ECF was one of the Knicks/Pacers classics

In 2009-10 before the super friend team up Wade averaged 33.2 points on 56.4% shooting, 6.8 assists, 5.6 rebounds, 1.6 steals and 1.6 blocks, against the eventual EC champs. Took the Celts to five hard fought games. He did this with Quentin Richardson, Jermaine O'neil, bust Beasley and Haslem.

Shlumpledink
05-31-2014, 11:15 PM
Most people can't accurately compare eras due to nostalgia, and the idea that both eras were somehow equal, or the talent was somehow better back then.


To be perfectly fair, you have to remember Jordan's era of dominance started after the league expanded. What happens when expansion teams enter any sport ever in the history of the universe? The talent level overall is diminished, leading a team of "superfriends" more likely to take place. If you look at the Bulls, they had a great team of overall talent.

Not to mention the dominant Lakers were dealing with injuries, and aging players. Celtics were falling off with Bird's injuries and aging players. The Pistons were older. The only true challenger left were the NY Knicks, who didn't have a deep team outside of Oakley, Starks, Ewing, Gerald Wilkins, and Kiki Vandegwhie. This knicks team is perhaps overrated because of them being the last Knick team to make the finals.

Say what you want about Cartwright/Perdue, but having Horace Grant as your other bigman is nothing to sneeze at (especially when you consider they had to beat an injured Lakers team in the finals that had Vlade and Elden Campbell as their bigs, not exactly world beaters those two)

The Bulls still had Pippen, BJ Armstrong, Craig Hodges, John Paxson , Horace Grant. All of which are great role players. Not to mention the team that added Toni Kukoc, Dennis Rodman, Steve Kerr, Ron Harper. The Bulls teams were the most talented teams of their championship years.


A team like the heat is a great team, and could beat those older Bulls teams. Maybe not the first super team, the second threepeat team, but I think it is certainly very debatable.

I don't see how Pippen could truly handle a player like Lebron James. You can't say that about any other perimeter player, but I think Lebron is too strong and quick for Pippen. There are players in basketball today who are quicker than Pippen, and a lot of them. You can't say that about the league while Pippen was playing until he was on the Rockets, or maybe even the trailblazers.

The league has changed, it has evolved, as things usually do in time. That doesn't mean these guys are the best players of all time, but clinging to previous eras with the mindset that basketball has defied human nature and gotten worse over time, is pretty silly. It is only a matter of time until people realize that Lebron James is a far superior athlete to anyone outside of Wilt Chamberlain (taller Lebron James) that has ever played the game.

That isn't a slight to Jordan, but to say that Jordan didn't benefit from the era he played in at all is intellectually lazy.

effen5
05-31-2014, 11:16 PM
Anybody who posts in this thread is an idiot....and that includes me for posting this in this thread.

Jeffy25
05-31-2014, 11:18 PM
1994 Bulls lost in the 2nd round, not ECF. the ECF was one of the Knicks/Pacers classics

Point is, Wade couldn't do it today.

Today's Wade isn't the 2009 D. Wade.

effen5
05-31-2014, 11:18 PM
Most people can't accurately compare eras due to nostalgia, and the idea that both eras were somehow equal, or the talent was somehow better back then.


To be perfectly fair, you have to remember Jordan's era of dominance started after the league expanded. What happens when expansion teams enter any sport ever in the history of the universe? The talent level overall is diminished, leading a team of "superfriends" more likely to take place. If you look at the Bulls, they had a great team of overall talent.

Not to mention the dominant Lakers were dealing with injuries, and aging players. Celtics were falling off with Bird's injuries and aging players. The Pistons were older. The only true challenger left were the NY Knicks, who didn't have a deep team outside of Oakley, Starks, Ewing, Gerald Wilkins, and Kiki Vandegwhie. This knicks team is perhaps overrated because of them being the last Knick team to make the finals.

Say what you want about Cartwright/Perdue, but having Horace Grant as your other bigman is nothing to sneeze at (especially when you consider they had to beat an injured Lakers team in the finals that had Vlade and Elden Campbell as their bigs, not exactly world beaters those two)

The Bulls still had Pippen, BJ Armstrong, Craig Hodges, John Paxson , Horace Grant. All of which are great role players. Not to mention the team that added Toni Kukoc, Dennis Rodman, Steve Kerr, Ron Harper. The Bulls teams were the most talented teams of their championship years.


A team like the heat is a great team, and could beat those older Bulls teams. Maybe not the first super team, the second threepeat team, but I think it is certainly very debatable.

I don't see how Pippen could truly handle a player like Lebron James. You can't say that about any other perimeter player, but I think Lebron is too strong and quick for Pippen. There are players in basketball today who are quicker than Pippen, and a lot of them. You can't say that about the league while Pippen was playing until he was on the Rockets, or maybe even the trailblazers.

The league has changed, it has evolved, as things usually do in time. That doesn't mean these guys are the best players of all time, but clinging to previous eras with the mindset that basketball has defied human nature and gotten worse over time, is pretty silly. It is only a matter of time until people realize that Lebron James is a far superior athlete to anyone outside of Wilt Chamberlain (taller Lebron James) that has ever played the game.

That isn't a slight to Jordan, but to say that Jordan didn't benefit from the era he played in at all is intellectually lazy.
Pacers? Heat? Orlando? That Orlando team IMO could beat this heat team...and no lebron can't guard shaq.

DemarDerozan
05-31-2014, 11:26 PM
I watched most of the Bulls playoff runs. There was not a time that myself or anyone else brought up an easy rode to the Finals in the East. Not only was their more physical and fierce competition but the players were better too. No way Paul George, John Wall, Joe Johnson or Milisap make an ASG... Some of those guys might not even be starting.

brandt
05-31-2014, 11:36 PM
I'm not a Heat fan or LeBron fan. I don't even want the Heat to win, but I do have to admit 4 straight finals is impressive, and only 3 other teams have done.

Guess what? The "GOAT" Michael Jordan never did it, because he quit either due to gambling issues or Jerry Krause issues which led to his 'retirements'. 4 straight finals is something Jordan never will have over LeBron. LeBron is better than Jordan, there's no doubt about that. He's better than MJ in every facet of the name and now he is going to be a bigger and better winner than MJ. People may not like it, but deal with it, because it's the cold hard truth.

People think it's inconceivable and sacrilegious that anyone can surpass Michael.

Well guess what? iT Already has! I bet in a 7 game series, these Heat would wipe the floor with those Bulls. History is being made haturz, and honestly I have become a Witness.

WE ARE ALL WITNESSES!!!


Are you kidding me??? Just because he's going to 4 straight finals? Jordon won 6 championships, 2 three peats! LeBron has only won 2 and he also lost 2. If I recall correctly, Jordon never lost one! It may not be ALL about the Championships, but at this point at least to me, it is. He needs to win at least 2 more for me to even consider it though, and beating San Antonio with home court advantage isn't going to be easy.

dnl123
05-31-2014, 11:42 PM
Jordan will always be #1 unless someone can repeat 6 for 6 titles and finals mvps and some of the amazing individual seasons that Jordan had. It's just dumb to compare people that are different types of players from different eras. You better believe if Lebron played in the 90's that he'd be MJ's #1 competition. Lebron is well on his way to #2 in my opinion, but I don't think he can catch Jordan on the list. Also totally unrelated, but people gotta stop comparing Lebron to Jordan or Magic. Lebron is his own unique type of player. We haven't had a player like Lebron before in the league and we gotta appreciate it while it lasts. I miss watching MJ and I will miss watching Lebron when he's done.

bootleg42
05-31-2014, 11:42 PM
:laugh:

MJ was also 6 for 6 in the finals and never had to team up with super friends to win. And didn't have a totally free ride to the finals ever

Not to mention, he had to knock down Hall Of Famers (Reggie Miller, Patrick Ewing, Isiah Thomas, a younger Shaq) every time in order just to get to the finals every year. Granted LeBron knocked down Duncan (well the Spurs blew that one more than Lebron and the Heat beat them) and Durant (but lost to Dirk), but still, no comparison.

LeBron is an all time great. But as of now, Michael Jordan is the greatest of all time.

Jeffy25
05-31-2014, 11:52 PM
Are you kidding me??? Just because he's going to 4 straight finals? Jordon won 6 championships, 2 three peats! LeBron has only won 2 and he also lost 2. If I recall correctly, Jordon never lost one! It may not be ALL about the Championships, but at this point at least to me, it is. He needs to win at least 2 more for me to even consider it though, and beating San Antonio with home court advantage isn't going to be easy.


So all the times Jordan ever made the playoffs but didn't win a championship don't matter....because he's 6 for 6 in the Finals! Right?


Again, most ridiculous stance ever. Jordan made the playoffs 13 times, and won it all 6 of those times.

Let's not color this rose a different color. Hell, he played 15 seasons in the league....winning it all 6 times.....do those other 9 seasons not count for some reason when discussing him?


2 for 4 in the Finals....that's the argument you are making.


Would it be better to play 10 seasons, and win 4 championships and make the Finals 10 times, so you are 4-6 in the Finals in your career....

Or play 20 seasons, but make the Finals 3 times, winning all 3 of them.

Because you are basically saying the second player is a more accomplished player on this argument alone.


Thank God people know better than to talk like this about baseball. Most ridiculous stance one can take......success rate when they are in the Finals, for a team accomplishment....seriously....think about it.

championships
06-01-2014, 12:01 AM
Only an idiot would say Bron is better. LeBron can't even sniff Jordans greatness.

DemarDerozan
06-01-2014, 12:02 AM
It will be 2 for 5 soon. ^

bucketss
06-01-2014, 12:09 AM
I watched most of the Bulls playoff runs. There was not a time that myself or anyone else brought up an easy rode to the Finals in the East. Not only was their more physical and fierce competition but the players were better too. No way Paul George, John Wall, Joe Johnson or Milisap make an ASG... Some of those guys might not even be starting.

:facepalm: wow

effen5
06-01-2014, 12:09 AM
I seriously laugh when they say LeBron can guard 1-5...I agree to a certain extent he can guard 1-4 but outside of Dwight they're are no legit centers in the league right now.

effen5
06-01-2014, 12:10 AM
:facepalm: wow

Uh he has a point?

amos1er
06-01-2014, 12:12 AM
I've never said PER was a be-all, end-all

Your original argument for Lebron having lesser teammates back in the Cleveland days was solely based on PER.


It's another stat, in a laundry list of stats, that show that lebron is clearly on Jordan's level at this point in time.

PER is the only stat you provided. It's only a very small piece of the pie and Jordan was still above him. Not only that, Jordan's overall PER is factoring in his declining years. Lets see how Lebron's looks in about 5 years before you go making that comparison. Essentially, PER proves nothing. Again, it is only a theory. One that is controversial amongst the majority of experts.


Regardless if you don't like that he teamed up with two other good players to have a better chance at winning or not, what he does individually on the court is very impressive, and if he continues to do it for a long period of time, he easily could become the best ever. Rate wise he may be a hair below Jordan, but he's easily going to play a lot longer than Jordan. Probably becoming a PF and finding good team mates and wining more chips.

So now winning more chips is all of the sudden a relevant factor to you. I thought you said it had nothing to do with a players individual greatness. Which is it? You are also factoring in a lot of unknowns in your theory. Lets wait and see how things shape up before the Jordan comparisons are made. Especially since you are neglecting to factor in Jordan's declining years. I hope that sounds fair enough to you.


Only way he doesn't do this is if he decides to retire young or he ages poorly (either by injuries or just overall getting worse).

At least you finally admit there are a lot of unknowns and extenuating circumstances. A lot of Lebron's play is predicated from physical dominance and athletic ability. What makes you think that he will be so dominant when standing up to the test of time. If anything, he is at his peak now and will start to decline soon. Jordan was the far superior offensive player and defender. I don't really see how you think they are on par. Did you even look at those finals numbers I posted earlier. It's night and day really.


He will eventually accumulate too much and be above everyone else.

Opinion argument.


PER is only one stat, there are many. They all say the same thing. Lebron dominates on a level very close to the level of production that Jordan used to. They do It in sort of different ways, but they both are creating similar values.


What are these stats? Jordan was a far superior scorer and defender. He was also a lot mentally tougher and possessed far greater intangibles such as a clutch gene and natural leadership skills. Lebron is not nearly the alpha male Jordan is, nor is he as skilled, nor is he a winner.

[QUOTE=Jeffy25;28565833]Durant was better than Lebron this year, no question about it. Doesn't mean he is the better player yet. I feel like you need to do it more than just once. Lebron has been a beast for almost a decade, and probably the best player in the game for I guess 5 or so years now. But if it continues, durant could be considered the best in today's game.


If it's all about numbers, than by your own argument you would have to concede that Durant is the better player. You basically said that we should throw everything else out the window including intangibles and go mostly by stats. If that is the case than by your own admission Durant is currently the better player. Don't really see how Lebron was the best for the past 5 years. In 2011 he certainly was not. He failed miserably on one of the biggest stages. Can't be considered the best when you choke that hard in the finals. I will give you that he was the best since the 2011-2012 season. About 3 years or so.

[QUOTE=Jeffy25;28565833]In terms of comparing all time greatness, Lebron is on his way to Jordan, no doubt about it. And if he plays long enough, he'll probably catch him.

The odds are definitely against him. The rings he was won in Miami are not nearly as impressive as the first three Jordan won. I provided their finals stats and it was mindblowingly in favor of Jordan. Not only that, Lebron had far more help against much lesser competition. If he can't win it this year, he will likely not have another chance this good in Miami with the declining health of Wade and Allen. This means he must find another Superfriends team to join up with or just win it the old fashion way like the other all time greats. He is at the end of his prime now and it's unlikely that he can lead a normal conventional team to a title because we have never seen him do it before. Especially considering he is going to have to find a situation that is right for him, develop team chemistry and carry a team without the heroics of D-Wade in the clutch where Lebron has failed time and time again. Without D-Wade's heroics in game four of last years finals, he would not have that second ring, and without Allen's miracle three is loses as well. There is a lot that has yet to be proven with Lebron that a lot of fans refuse to acknowledge. Even his most intense and homeristic fans agree that the chances of him catching Jordan are very small. However, I'll admit that it is still within the realm of possibility, just very unlikely. Just being a realist here.

ghettosean
06-01-2014, 12:15 AM
im from canada, i don't even get espn. lebron > jordan

He did beat a historically bad eastern conference so he's got that going for him.

I will admit he's better than Jordan at this --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8rGCH_HRdQ

amos1er
06-01-2014, 12:16 AM
Duncan has better longevity than Lebron?

Lebron is only 29

Pretty sure Duncan has played less games over the last 10 years.

Over the past ten years???

I'll take that bet.

Jeffy25
06-01-2014, 12:20 AM
Over the past ten years???

I'll take that bet.

ummm, okay?

Since 04-05 season
Lebron has played 763 games and Duncan has played 734

And not that this matters, but Lebron has also played 6 more playoff games in that time too.



Add to this argument that Duncan has better longevity

Lebron has played 30,154 minutes in the regular season (another 6497 in the playoffs)

Duncan has played 23,352 minutes in the regular season (another 5259 in the playoffs)


I should have bet you wouldn't post any more in this thread lol

amos1er
06-01-2014, 12:23 AM
ummm, okay?

Since 04-05 season
Lebron has played 763 games and Duncan has played 734

And not that this matters, but Lebron has also played 6 more playoff games in that time too.



Add to this argument that Duncan has better longevity

Lebron has played 30,154 minutes in the regular season (another 6497 in the playoffs)

Duncan has played 23,352 minutes in the regular season (another 5259 in the playoffs)


I should have bet you wouldn't post any more in this thread lol

Now should we add in the time Duncan played before that and all his career accomplishments.

smiddy012
06-01-2014, 12:23 AM
I'll tell you somethings that MJ never did: he wasn't the team's leading scorer/rebounder/assist man and guarded the other team's best player (positions 1-5) all at the same time. Lebron does that. Lebron is also a better role model. Lebron will surpass Jordan.

MJ never quit on his team during the playoffs.

Jeffy25
06-01-2014, 12:24 AM
Now should we add in the time Duncan played before that and all his career accomplishments.

I am at a loss for words at how you process basic discussions.