PDA

View Full Version : Is Kyrie Irving worth a max contract?



JasonJohnHorn
05-25-2014, 08:45 AM
http://prosportsdaily.com/articles/cavs-dont-want-to-give-irving-max-extension-306318.html

It has been reported that the Cavs don't want to offer Kyrie Ivring a max deal.

I'm inclined to agree with them.

I was happy to see his assist-to-turnover ratio improve this year, but his percentages actually went down, not a good trend for a guard in his third season.

Shooting percentage aside, my biggest concern with Irving is how injury prone he is.

He missed much of his freshman year, a big chuck on his rookie season, 30 games of his sophomore season, and then went down with an injury again this year (though he managed to return and play a career-high 71 games.


The injuries is the biggest concern I think. Would you pay a max-contract for a player who was unavailable for the post season 3 out of the last 4 years?

PLEASE NOTE: The term "max deal" implies the maximum Kyrie is eligible for, which isn't the same as a max deal that LBJ is eligible for. JAvale McGee, for example, is currently on a 'max contract' and is only making 10-13 mill a year during the duration of the contract.

So 'max' in this context essentially means 10-12 million.

Of course, Kyrie is technically available for the "super-max" deal as he had made 2 ASG and therefore is allowed (like Derrick Rose and Westbrook) to make 30% of the cap. That, he is NOT worth.


TO THE MODS: Could you add a pole? I meant to put one on here. Sorry.

xxplayerxx23
05-25-2014, 08:56 AM
He's not even 23 and has shown flashes of greatness just based on upside id def max him

Marques24kobe
05-25-2014, 09:02 AM
Enter the Lakers. Though I would not trade the no. 7 pick for Love, since they can just wait one year and get him for nothing, I would trade it for Irving. Sounds like Irving doesn't want to be there anyway. And now maybe the feeling is mutual with the Cavs.

I Rock Shaqs
05-25-2014, 09:25 AM
He's not even 23 and has shown flashes of greatness just based on upside id def max him

HELLL NOOOO. Most overrated player in the league, he's selfish and terrible on defense and he has already had injury problems.

FraziersKnicks
05-25-2014, 09:26 AM
If Eric Gordon, Rudy Gay, Joe Johnson and Roy Hibbert can all get max contracts then absolutely. The way max deals are thrown around now I see no reason as to why Kyrie doesn't deserve one on potential alone.

I can see a ceiling of 23-24 points with maybe 7-8 assists a game on 48/40/87, if he can achieve that then of course he's worth a max deal. He's just turned 22 and has career numbers of 21/4/6 on 45/38/86, max deals have been handed out to a lot less deserving players.

If the Cavs don't tie him down with a max deal, he's gonna bolt as soon as he's a FA. Sometimes you have to overpay to show your intent to build a contending team. A Kyrie/Wiggins combo for the next 7-8 years with the right pieces around it would be a dangerous team if they can both live up to their potential.

goingfor28
05-25-2014, 09:29 AM
Someone will, no question.

ATX
05-25-2014, 10:07 AM
To Cleveland absolutely Kyrie is worth the max. Players and most Americans don't like being there, so they are forced to overpay to keep their own players who were unluckily drafted or traded there. Kyrie's FG% has dropped in each of his three seasons and is down to .430%. That is not indicative of a max player, but his upside is still so lucrative. I'm positive he'll be offered the max, and considering his injury history, I believe he'll sign it this offseason. Kyrie won't risk 2 more seasons on his rookie scale contract before becoming an UFA. Next season as a RFA, the Cavs would just match the inevitable max offers anyways.

tr3ymill3r
05-25-2014, 10:15 AM
And all these people think LeBron is going back to the Cavs? They could sign Irving and LeBron. This is just like when LeBron was in Cleveland and they wouldn't move superstar JJ Hixon for Amare at the time.

ManRam
05-25-2014, 10:34 AM
He'll get it, for sure.

Greet
05-25-2014, 10:35 AM
He'll get it, for sure.

Agree with this, but I think the question was more geared towards if he deserves it.

I think if the Cavs don't give it to him, someone will. I don't think he deserves/earned it though. He's a little overrated to this point, hasn't shown much improvement year to year for me to think he will hit that next step.

nycericanguy
05-25-2014, 10:39 AM
There should be a team salary cap, but no cap on player salaries.

Otherwise we're going to see basically any young player that shows even borderline all star potential get a MAX deal... and the MAX was intended to be for the true stars.

LBJ, Wade & Bosh in their primes would have never happened...

Some team would offer LBJ $40m per year, even if it means being left with only $23m to fill out the roster. What if CHA for instance had offered LBJ $40m per year, does he really still take $14m to go to MIA?

Not capping player salaries would disperse the true stars and make it really difficult for them to team up.

All these years we've seen MIA basically cake walk to the finals, it would have been much more fun to see prime Wade AGAINST LBJ, rather than being teamed up.

2-ONE-5
05-25-2014, 10:48 AM
no he doesnt deserve it. he deserves right in that range that Holiday, Wall, and DeRozen got

Dade County
05-25-2014, 11:04 AM
The only players that are worth a max contract from a talent prospective are...

Lbj & KD

Form a business standpoint or we have to pay this player this much situation...

Curry, Blake, Howard, Cp3, Melo, West brook, Harden, LMA, Love

Just deal with it contacts...

Kobe & Wade ... :)

sep11ie
05-25-2014, 11:08 AM
There should be a team salary cap, but no cap on player salaries.

Otherwise we're going to see basically any young player that shows even borderline all star potential get a MAX deal... and the MAX was intended to be for the true stars.

LBJ, Wade & Bosh in their primes would have never happened...

Some team would offer LBJ $40m per year, even if it means being left with only $23m to fill out the roster. What if CHA for instance had offered LBJ $40m per year, does he really still take $14m to go to MIA?

.

Not capping player salaries would disperse the true stars and make it really difficult for them to team up.

All these years we've seen MIA basically cake walk to the finals, it would have been much more fun to see prime Wade AGAINST LBJ, rather than being teamed up.


Except the heat and Wade wouldn't be competing for shyt without the entire team up

ATX
05-25-2014, 11:16 AM
Except the heat and Wade wouldn't be competing for shyt without the entire team up

There isn't enough information to make this assumption. Going off assumptions however, if James stayed in Cleveland and didn't join Wade and Bosh, the Heat still had plenty of cap space to fill out the roster. Who's to say Riley wouldn't have put some good pieces around Wade and Bosh. They would have at least been competitive, especially in the East.

IndyRealist
05-25-2014, 11:16 AM
If Eric Gordon, Rudy Gay, Joe Johnson and Roy Hibbert can all get max contracts then absolutely. The way max deals are thrown around now I see no reason as to why Kyrie doesn't deserve one on potential alone.
I can see a ceiling of 23-24 points with maybe 7-8 assists a game on 48/40/87, if he can achieve that then of course he's worth a max deal. He's just turned 22 and has career numbers of 21/4/6 on 45/38/86, max deals have been handed out to a lot less deserving players.

If the Cavs don't tie him down with a max deal, he's gonna bolt as soon as he's a FA. Sometimes you have to overpay to show your intent to build a contending team. A Kyrie/Wiggins combo for the next 7-8 years with the right pieces around it would be a dangerous team if they can both live up to their potential.
So you list guys who shouldn't have gotten a max deal, to justify giving Kyrie one? Gay, Gordon, Hibbert, and Johnson all had their teams in a really bad position, and those teams overpaid or risk backsliding.

That is not the situation AT ALL with the Cavs, who a) aren't doing well, and b) have the picks to start over quickly.

Trade Kyrie for 2 starters and a pick, draft Embiid.

nycericanguy
05-25-2014, 11:25 AM
There isn't enough information to make this assumption. Going off assumptions however, if James stayed in Cleveland and didn't join Wade and Bosh, the Heat still had plenty of cap space to fill out the roster. Who's to say Riley wouldn't have put some good pieces around Wade and Bosh. They would have at least been competitive, especially in the East.

agreed, and the general point was stars wouldn't be able to team up anywhere near as easily.

A team with prime Wade & Bosh would have certainly challenged LBJ alone... I mean people forget how great Wade & Bosh were 4 years ago.

ManRam
05-25-2014, 11:52 AM
Agree with this, but I think the question was more geared towards if he deserves it.

I think if the Cavs don't give it to him, someone will. I don't think he deserves/earned it though. He's a little overrated to this point, hasn't shown much improvement year to year for me to think he will hit that next step.

Yeah. I think it's kinda moot, because it's undeniable that he'll get it.

Deserves? I don't know. Probably not. Most players off their rookie contracts aren't worth it because it's still too much of a risk. To live up to that contract means realizing almost all of his potential and last year he didn't play like a max player. He's still a young pup, though. It's a gamble, but if the alternative is letting him walk in restricted FA, well, they'd be silly not to roll the dice and pony up the extra couple million a year to keep him and hope he plays up to the contract.

To whoever said he deserves what Wall, Holiday and DeRozan got...well, that's silly. Suggesting he's in Holiday's class is hilarious to me. Holiday, sans one half of one season, has been an average player at best his whole career. Even though he disappointed last year, Kyrie still had a better season than Holiday has ever had. DeRozan showed little growth during his rookie contract...this is really the first year he was an above average player. He was CONSIDERABLY worse than Kyrie was during their respective first 3 seasons. Kyrie was better his rookie year than DeRozan arguably ever has, aside from MAYBE this year. Again, they're not equals here. Wall is closer, but again, at least statistically, Irving has been as good if not better than Wall for most of his young career as well.

5 years, $90 million is a lot, but if he's not worth close to the $20M a year he'd earn in 2020, well, the Cavs were already doomed from the get go. They NEED him to be a super star or this rebuild is never ever ever going to work.

Only time will tell if he's worth it. You're paying him what you're paying him in 2020 because of how good you think he'll be in 2020...not how good he already has been. Strictly speaking he's not worth a max contract, almost no one is. However, the Cavs really don't have a choice IMO. They need him too much.


Edit: I didn't see that the Cavs don't wanna give it to him. Thing is, if they don't, there's no doubt someone else will. And letting him go this young into his career because of a couple million a year would be catastrophically stupid. He'll get max money. Period.

IndyRealist
05-25-2014, 12:05 PM
Yeah. I think it's kinda moot, because it's undeniable that he'll get it.

Deserves? I don't know. Probably not. Most players off their rookie contracts aren't worth it because it's still too much of a risk. To live up to that contract means realizing almost all of his potential and last year he didn't play like a max player. He's still a young pup, though. It's a gamble, but if the alternative is letting him walk in restricted FA, well, they'd be silly not to roll the dice and pony up the extra couple million a year to keep him and hope he plays up to the contract.

To whoever said he deserves what Wall, Holiday and DeRozan got...well, that's silly. Suggesting he's in Holiday's class is hilarious to me. Holiday, sans one half of one season, has been an average player at best his whole career. Even though he disappointed last year, Kyrie still had a better season than Holiday has ever had. DeRozan showed little growth during his rookie contract...this is really the first year he was an above average player. He was CONSIDERABLY worse than Kyrie was during their respective first 3 seasons. Kyrie was better his rookie year than DeRozan arguably ever has, aside from MAYBE this year. Again, they're not equals here. Wall is closer, but again, at least statistically, Irving has been as good if not better than Wall for most of his young career as well.

5 years, $90 million is a lot, but if he's not worth close to the $20M a year he'd earn in 2020, well, the Cavs were already doomed from the get go. They NEED him to be a super star or this rebuild is never ever ever going to work.

Only time will tell if he's worth it. You're paying him what you're paying him in 2020 because of how good you think he'll be in 2020...not how good he already has been. Strictly speaking he's not worth a max contract, almost no one is. However, the Cavs really don't have a choice IMO. They need him too much.


Edit: I didn't see that the Cavs don't wanna give it to him. Thing is, if they don't, there's no doubt someone else will. And letting him go this young into his career because of a couple million a year would be catastrophically stupid. He'll get max money. Period.

I don't think the choice is either "max deal" or "lose him for nothing". It's "max deal" or "trade him for assets". If he's not worth max, you trade him. He will be a restricted free agent, not unrestricted, so he really doesn't have a say in the matter if he really wants out. Cleveland can match any contract he gets and then trade him midseason, so his only real option is a sign and trade.

WITZ
05-25-2014, 12:12 PM
And all these people think LeBron is going back to the Cavs? They could sign Irving and LeBron. This is just like when LeBron was in Cleveland and they wouldn't move superstar JJ Hixon for Amare at the time.

When will people learn this isn't true :facepalm: . The only trade that never happened involving Hickson was for Bosh in the off-season and the 3 amigos had already conspired to play together so nothing came of it.

ManRam
05-25-2014, 12:18 PM
I don't think the choice is either "max deal" or "lose him for nothing". It's "max deal" or "trade him for assets". If he's not worth max, you trade him. He will be a restricted free agent, not unrestricted, so he really doesn't have a say in the matter if he really wants out. Cleveland can match any contract he gets and then trade him midseason, so his only real option is a sign and trade.

Depends what those assets are. Again, I'd personally rather overpay Kyrie a couple million a year than get a bunch of other unproven assets. There's a chance Kyrie becomes a formative franchise player. I think they gotta roll the dice and hope the one draft pick they absolutely got right can be what we all thought he could be a year+ ago. I'm not sure you're gonna get fair value for Kyrie at this stage in his career.

It's certainly an interesting situation. Empirically speaking I don't think he's worth it...at least dollars and sense wise. In the most abstract and less scientific world, I kinda think he has more value to Cleveland than we might otherwise assume.

ATX
05-25-2014, 12:23 PM
When will people learn this isn't true :facepalm: . The only trade that never happened involving Hickson was for Bosh in the off-season and the 3 amigos had already conspired to play together so nothing came of it.

Or maybe Bosh refused being traded to Cleveland, as most any NBA player not simply seeking $ would do. Maybe Bosh wanted to be apart of a true team/family mentality.

http://espn.go.com/nba/truehoop/miamiheat/story/_/id/10775688/nba-pat-riley-winning-ways-miami-heat


When Chris Bosh's wife is pregnant, the wives of Riley and Arison are at the baby shower. When Wade is getting engaged, he's making the announcement at Riley's South Beach apartment, at the team holiday party. When Wade is celebrating a birthday, Riley and Arison are having drinks on his boat. When James is vacationing in Europe, he's meeting up with Arison. And when he's getting married, you'll find Riley and Arison on that dance floor.

And it isn't just for the super-famous guys, either. Heat lifer Udonis Haslem has rarely been as moved as he was at his mother's wake, when Riley came to his rough neighborhood trailed by members of the Heat front office. James Jones has played all of 406 minutes for the Heat the last two seasons, but there were Riley and Spoelstra last week, buying a table and attending his induction into the University of Miami Hall of Fame. When the Heat's PR director is celebrating his 50th birthday, Riley is the first guy at the old Irish bar, nearly ruining the surprise because he's an hour earlier than everyone else and this isn't the type of place he would frequent (the PR director's suits are awfully nice, hand-me-down Armani because he happens to be Riley's size).

WITZ
05-25-2014, 01:04 PM
Or maybe Bosh refused being traded to Cleveland, as most any NBA player not simply seeking $ would do. Maybe Bosh wanted to be apart of a true team/family mentality.

http://espn.go.com/nba/truehoop/miamiheat/story/_/id/10775688/nba-pat-riley-winning-ways-miami-heat

Don't kid yourself ,we all know the main driving force between the 3 buds getting together was to take the short route to championships. Mission accomplished because they got 2 rings to show for it.

Giannis94
05-25-2014, 01:24 PM
He's not even 23 and has shown flashes of greatness just based on upside id def max him

Not only that but its the fact that the Cabs lost Lebron, got lucky and got the #1 pick to get Irving in the first place. There is nothing redeeming about Cleveland the city which is why Cleveland teams normally have to overpay players to play for them.

You lose Irving and you are back to square one with a crap lineup, and a terrible front office who does not understand how to build a winner outside of LBJ and even he bolted when he had the chance.

For a poorly ran franchise whose trophy case is filled with NBA Draft Lottery Ping Pong balls, is there any question that you need to max him- for the sale of your fans?

Giannis94
05-25-2014, 01:29 PM
Agree with this, but I think the question was more geared towards if he deserves it.

I think if the Cavs don't give it to him, someone will. I don't think he deserves/earned it though. He's a little overrated to this point, hasn't shown much improvement year to year for me to think he will hit that next step.


There has to be a premium paid as far as his importance to Cleveland goes. We haven't even seen his full potential and when he reaches it, he could be worth well more than the max deal. Cleveland can't afford to deal him. You want to build around Waiters, Bennett, Thompson Wiggins/Embiid? No thanks.

ATX
05-25-2014, 01:33 PM
Don't kid yourself ,we all know the main driving force between the 3 buds getting together was to take the short route to championships. Mission accomplished because they got 2 rings to show for it.

So you dispute that the Heat franchise is one of the best organizations in basketball? Why because they orchestrated one of if not the best FREE agent classes in history. Many NBA franchises have tried to do the same and will continue trying to do the same. The Heat should be faulted for their 2010 FA class? Does this really need to be rehashed? Our opinions will not change on this matter. To me, it's a sign of a great organization, and to you simply cheating. It's no wonder why Kyrie has wanted out. Cleveland just isn't a well run organization nor a desirable city for FA's. Be hopeful he signs his max extension and your (Speaking of "Unfairness") 3rd #1 overall draft pick in 4 years turns out to be a superstar player and the Cavs become a true contender.

b@llhog24
05-25-2014, 01:49 PM
He'll get it so it doesn't matter.

WITZ
05-25-2014, 01:51 PM
So you dispute that the Heat franchise is one of the best organizations in basketball? Why because they orchestrated one of if not the best FREE agent classes in history. Many NBA franchises have tried to do the same and will continue trying to do the same. The Heat should be faulted for their 2010 FA class? Does this really need to be rehashed? Our opinions will not change on this matter. To me, it's a sign of a great organization, and to you simply cheating. It's no wonder why Kyrie has wanted out. Cleveland just isn't a well run organization nor a desirable city for FA's. Be hopeful he signs his max extension and your (Speaking of "Unfairness") 3rd #1 overall draft pick in 4 years turns out to be a superstar player and the Cavs become a true contender.

Did I say that anywhere??? If so please point it out to me. All i'm saying is that we all know the number ONE reason they got together was for the rings and not to feel like they belong to a "true team/family mentality"

IndyRealist
05-25-2014, 01:51 PM
Depends what those assets are. Again, I'd personally rather overpay Kyrie a couple million a year than get a bunch of other unproven assets. There's a chance Kyrie becomes a formative franchise player. I think they gotta roll the dice and hope the one draft pick they absolutely got right can be what we all thought he could be a year+ ago. I'm not sure you're gonna get fair value for Kyrie at this stage in his career.

It's certainly an interesting situation. Empirically speaking I don't think he's worth it...at least dollars and sense wise. In the most abstract and less scientific world, I kinda think he has more value to Cleveland than we might otherwise assume.

If I can get 2 starters and a 1st, I'd do it without blinking. Kyrie is a headcase who wants out, fights with teammates, and dictates terms to management and coaches. He doesn't play defense. For the most part he puts up gaudy, AI-like numbers and never wins. If he gets everything he wants, I doubt he ever changes.

Bruno
05-25-2014, 02:18 PM
in reality he's worth the Rondo/Curry contract, but he'll probably get the max.

beasted86
05-25-2014, 02:53 PM
Yes, he's worth a max contract to the Cavs.

He's young, he's marketable, he puts fans in the seats, and he can win you some games.

His game surely needs some work, but with good consistent coaching (3 coaches in 3 years, right?), and adding talent around him, he can be one of the primary options on a playoff team.

TheNumber37
05-25-2014, 03:30 PM
No. Everyone can't be a MAX level player.

Kyrie is not a top 5 PG in the NBA... Paul, Westbrook, Parker, Curry (Rondo and Rose when healthy) are all better.
And cases could be made about Wall, Dragic, Lillard... even Teague, Lawson and I.Thomas play better than him at times.

Kyrie is worth about 8-10 mil a year for 4 years. He should get around what Curry got who is underpaid.

JasonJohnHorn
05-25-2014, 03:33 PM
Enter the Lakers. Though I would not trade the no. 7 pick for Love, since they can just wait one year and get him for nothing, I would trade it for Irving. Sounds like Irving doesn't want to be there anyway. And now maybe the feeling is mutual with the Cavs.

This actually sounds good to me. I'd ship Kyrie to LAL for the 7th and some change. Maybe the 2017 unprotected first rounder? Next season goes to Phoenix and the Lakers can't offer a pick in consecutive years. The Lakers could of course draft whoever the Cavs want in 2016 and then trade that pic to the Cavs for the 2017 pick. Er.. whatever... however that would work.


But yeah, I'd take the 7th pick over Kyrie. I realize Kyrie will likely prove to be better than who ever they pick, but it seems that Kyrie is on the path to be the next Gilbert Arenas, a very talented player who can score and demands a big contract, but who ultimately isn't quite the to build around, but letting him go for nothing would be too big a step back.

I'd rather trade Kyrie for this year's 7th pick and a first in 2017 then sign him to a big contract that eats up the cap. That would give the Cavs several young players, potential starters, all on rookie contracts that would open up cap space and allow the Cavs to sign some quality vets.

Greg.
05-25-2014, 03:48 PM
Didn't ESPN/Grantland just write an article about this?

bleedprple&gold
05-25-2014, 03:58 PM
If he wasnt the number 1 pick would he even be a consideration for a max contract? He hasnt been any better than Curry who didnt get a max as we all know. Seems like guys feel like they are entitled to the max when they get picked first even if they don't deserve it.

JasonJohnHorn
05-25-2014, 04:04 PM
If he wasnt the number 1 pick would he even be a consideration for a max contract? He hasnt been any better than Curry who didnt get a max as we all know. Seems like guys feel like they are entitled to the max when they get picked first even if they don't deserve it.

Curry got the max he was allowed to sign for.

Irving can get the 'super max' because he's made two ASGs. If a guy under a rookie contracts earns an MVP award (Rose), or makes two ASGs (Westbrook), they are eligible for a super-max deal (30% of the salary cap).

Otherwise, after a rookie contract they can only start at like 8 or 9 mi and go up to 12.

bleedprple&gold
05-25-2014, 04:04 PM
http://prosportsdaily.com/articles/cavs-dont-want-to-give-irving-max-extension-306318.html

It has been reported that the Cavs don't want to offer Kyrie Ivring a max deal.

I'm inclined to agree with them.

I was happy to see his assist-to-turnover ratio improve this year, but his percentages actually went down, not a good trend for a guard in his third season.

Shooting percentage aside, my biggest concern with Irving is how injury prone he is.

He missed much of his freshman year, a big chuck on his rookie season, 30 games of his sophomore season, and then went down with an injury again this year (though he managed to return and play a career-high 71 games.


The injuries is the biggest concern I think. Would you pay a max-contract for a player who was unavailable for the post season 3 out of the last 4 years?

PLEASE NOTE: The term "max deal" implies the maximum Kyrie is eligible for, which isn't the same as a max deal that LBJ is eligible for. JAvale McGee, for example, is currently on a 'max contract' and is only making 10-13 mill a year during the duration of the contract.

So 'max' in this context essentially means 10-12 million.

Of course, Kyrie is technically available for the "super-max" deal as he had made 2 ASG and therefore is allowed (like Derrick Rose and Westbrook) to make 30% of the cap. That, he is NOT worth.


TO THE MODS: Could you add a pole? I meant to put one on here. Sorry.

JaVale McGee is NOT on a max contract. Blake Griffin is and he made $16.4M in the first year of his max and that will escalate all the way up to $21.4M in 2017-18 so your 'max' numbers are not right at all.

bleedprple&gold
05-25-2014, 04:08 PM
no he doesnt deserve it. he deserves right in that range that Holiday, Wall, and DeRozen got

Wall did get a max contract though.

WITZ
05-25-2014, 04:20 PM
Curry got the max he was allowed to sign for.

Irving can get the 'super max' because he's made two ASGs. If a guy under a rookie contracts earns an MVP award (Rose), or makes two ASGs (Westbrook), they are eligible for a super-max deal (30% of the salary cap).

Otherwise, after a rookie contract they can only start at like 8 or 9 mi and go up to 12.

I'm pretty sure that in order to qualify you have to be voted to start the allstar game twice, not just be voted an allstar twice.

lajoie
05-25-2014, 04:24 PM
He's a human pylon on defense.

east fb knicks
05-25-2014, 05:32 PM
nah gilbert don't give him the max let dolan do it:D

east fb knicks
05-25-2014, 05:37 PM
double post

Tony_Starks
05-25-2014, 06:09 PM
If Eric Gordon, Rudy Gay, Joe Johnson and Roy Hibbert can all get max contracts then absolutely. The way max deals are thrown around now I see no reason as to why Kyrie doesn't deserve one on potential alone.

I can see a ceiling of 23-24 points with maybe 7-8 assists a game on 48/40/87, if he can achieve that then of course he's worth a max deal. He's just turned 22 and has career numbers of 21/4/6 on 45/38/86, max deals have been handed out to a lot less deserving players.

If the Cavs don't tie him down with a max deal, he's gonna bolt as soon as he's a FA. Sometimes you have to overpay to show your intent to build a contending team. A Kyrie/Wiggins combo for the next 7-8 years with the right pieces around it would be a dangerous team if they can both live up to their potential.

This. But it seems they're bent on not paying. If they're smart they'll ship him for a pick, otherwise I think he bolts to Lakers for a max when he's a FA.

NBA_Starter
05-25-2014, 06:11 PM
I think he is, Cleveland would be lucky for him to sign it and stay.

IndyRealist
05-25-2014, 06:24 PM
This. But it seems they're bent on not paying. If they're smart they'll ship him for a pick, otherwise I think he bolts to Lakers for a max when he's a FA.

He can't bolt, he'll be a restricted free agent. Maybe they don't want to pay him the max THEY can pay him, but they may be willing to pay the max other teams can pay him. That's basically what happened with Roy Hibbert. The Pacers declined to pay him the extra year and larger raises.

Heck, they could match an offer just to spite him, then trade him mid season so they get assets in return. Players coming off rookie contracts have NO leverage whatsoever.

Tony_Starks
05-25-2014, 08:25 PM
He can't bolt, he'll be a restricted free agent. Maybe they don't want to pay him the max THEY can pay him, but they may be willing to pay the max other teams can pay him. That's basically what happened with Roy Hibbert. The Pacers declined to pay him the extra year and larger raises.

Heck, they could match an offer just to spite him, then trade him mid season so they get assets in return. Players coming off rookie contracts have NO leverage whatsoever.

I was talking about picking up the player option that last year and then becoming a UFA.

Melo15
05-25-2014, 08:29 PM
I was talking about picking up the player option that last year and then becoming a UFA.

That's a pretty big risk for someone with his injury history.

IndyRealist
05-25-2014, 09:05 PM
I was talking about picking up the player option that last year and then becoming a UFA.

Ah. It's not a player option, it's a qualifying offer, and no one ever does that. This contract is the first they actually get paid on, and more to the point the first one that AGENTS actually get paid on. No agent is going to wait another year and risk their player getting injured. Every single star player want to get their money right now, the max possible, in the city they want. There is zero chance Irving takes the qualifying offer and waits a year. Because Cleveland will still have his Bird rights, and they are the only ones that can offer him a true max deal. He will take a sign and trade, or he will sign a deal, Cleveland will match it, and then move to trade him. What you suggest literally never happens.

east fb knicks
05-25-2014, 09:07 PM
He can't bolt, he'll be a restricted free agent. Maybe they don't want to pay him the max THEY can pay him, but they may be willing to pay the max other teams can pay him. That's basically what happened with Roy Hibbert. The Pacers declined to pay him the extra year and larger raises.

Heck, they could match an offer just to spite him, then trade him mid season so they get assets in return. Players coming off rookie contracts have NO leverage whatsoever.

if kyrie is smart he'd just sign his qo that would fk the cavs over big time they wouldn't be able to get back fair value and if they don't trade him he'd leave for nothing in 2016

Jtirado16
05-25-2014, 09:59 PM
Yes without a question.. If they aren't careful they are gonna lose him

JasonJohnHorn
05-25-2014, 11:17 PM
Ah. It's not a player option, it's a qualifying offer, and no one ever does that. This contract is the first they actually get paid on, and more to the point the first one that AGENTS actually get paid on. No agent is going to wait another year and risk their player getting injured. Every single star player want to get their money right now, the max possible, in the city they want. There is zero chance Irving takes the qualifying offer and waits a year. Because Cleveland will still have his Bird rights, and they are the only ones that can offer him a true max deal. He will take a sign and trade, or he will sign a deal, Cleveland will match it, and then move to trade him. What you suggest literally never happens.

Qualifying offers literally happen every year. For players teams don't like that much, but don't want to lose and get nothing back, they often make a qualifying offer, or players who don't want to play for a team will only sign the qualifying offer.

It works like this: If the team wants the option to maintain the player at the end of the rookie contract, they make a qualifying offer. That is a percentage increase on the last year of the contract. It gives them the right to match any deal that is offered to the player.

At this point, it is in the players hands. They can pick up that option, play a year and become an unrestricted free agent (at which point they can sign a bigger contract because they've been in the league longer), or they can sign an offer sheet with another team. Most chose the latter because you never know what can happen in terms of injury.

As to the idea of 'trading' a player after a team matches an offer, the team is NOT ALLOWED TO TRADE THE PLAYER FOR A FULL CALENDAR YEAR. They can do a sing-and-trade, at the time, but they can't match the deal and then turn around and trade the player.

In most instances a player will chase after the max amount of money they can lock down, but if a player does not want to play in a given city, or for a given team, they can (and have) picked up the qualifying offer so that they could be unrestricted free agents after 4 or 5 seasons instead of waiting 7 or 8.

Likewise, if a team isn't sure about a player, all they will make is a qualifying offer so they can get a look at his development for one more season before deciding on a long deal, and if that one-year deal pays more for that season than what other teams are offering, even if they are offering longer contracts, the player may take that one-year deal.

This happens more often than not with late-first and second round picks because with quality players there is usually another team that expresses an interest. Players can threaten to take the qualifying offer, which usually means the team will lose them in free agency and won't have any trade value during the one year deal because a trade for them become a rental for the receiving team.

But lots of guys coming off rookie contracts only sign for one year after their rookie contract is up (often times with other teams): O.J Mayo, J.J. Hickson, D.J. Augustne (a lot of initials with "J" here for some reason).

jerellh528
05-25-2014, 11:19 PM
Worth it, yes. Earned it? Not really due to injuries

Mave1002
05-26-2014, 07:11 AM
One more healthy season, and yes.

Munkeysuit
05-26-2014, 09:06 AM
Long answer - Nope!
Short, more concise answer - No!

Giannis94
05-26-2014, 10:03 AM
Long answer - Nope!
Short, more concise answer - No!

And then Cle has a core of Bennett, Waiters, Thompson. Irving is worth more to Cleveland than most other teams because hes their only marketing piece they have, for the sake of the fans.

IndyRealist
05-26-2014, 10:30 AM
Qualifying offers literally happen every year. For players teams don't like that much, but don't want to lose and get nothing back, they often make a qualifying offer, or players who don't want to play for a team will only sign the qualifying offer.

It works like this: If the team wants the option to maintain the player at the end of the rookie contract, they make a qualifying offer. That is a percentage increase on the last year of the contract. It gives them the right to match any deal that is offered to the player.

At this point, it is in the players hands. They can pick up that option, play a year and become an unrestricted free agent (at which point they can sign a bigger contract because they've been in the league longer), or they can sign an offer sheet with another team. Most chose the latter because you never know what can happen in terms of injury.

As to the idea of 'trading' a player after a team matches an offer, the team is NOT ALLOWED TO TRADE THE PLAYER FOR A FULL CALENDAR YEAR. They can do a sing-and-trade, at the time, but they can't match the deal and then turn around and trade the player.

In most instances a player will chase after the max amount of money they can lock down, but if a player does not want to play in a given city, or for a given team, they can (and have) picked up the qualifying offer so that they could be unrestricted free agents after 4 or 5 seasons instead of waiting 7 or 8.

Likewise, if a team isn't sure about a player, all they will make is a qualifying offer so they can get a look at his development for one more season before deciding on a long deal, and if that one-year deal pays more for that season than what other teams are offering, even if they are offering longer contracts, the player may take that one-year deal.

This happens more often than not with late-first and second round picks because with quality players there is usually another team that expresses an interest. Players can threaten to take the qualifying offer, which usually means the team will lose them in free agency and won't have any trade value during the one year deal because a trade for them become a rental for the receiving team.

But lots of guys coming off rookie contracts only sign for one year after their rookie contract is up (often times with other teams): O.J Mayo, J.J. Hickson, D.J. Augustne (a lot of initials with "J" here for some reason).

Qualifying offers happen every year. But players never play on their one year qualifying offer. If players sign a single year deal off their rookie contract with a different team, that's not a qualifying offer because only the drafting team can give a qualifying offer to retain their rights. The qualifying offer is a set amount determined by their previous contract (and thus by their draft position). I cannot think of a single instance where a player played on his qualifying offer. Star players certainly do not, as their agents want to get paid.

The fact that you cannot trade a player for a year does not change the strategy. You match the contract, keep him a year, and then move him in the summer on a nice, long term contract to whoever will give you the most. Players have zero leverage coming off rookie contracts.

Sadds The Gr8
05-26-2014, 04:08 PM
He'll get it, for sure.

This. It's like the John wall extension. He hasn't really proved much or even led a team to the playoffs in the crappy east bit u max him based off his potential. He has the tools to become a top 5 pg and that is worth a max.

Kevj77
05-26-2014, 04:15 PM
The only players that are worth a max contract from a talent prospective are...

Lbj & KD

Form a business standpoint or we have to pay this player this much situation...

Curry, Blake, Howard, Cp3, Melo, West brook, Harden, LMA, Love

Just deal with it contacts...

Kobe & Wade ... :)I see it differently. Every player you named and more are worth max deals. Due to max deals LBJ and KD aren't allowed to make what they are actually worth.

IndyRealist
05-26-2014, 04:30 PM
I see it differently. Every player you named and more are worth max deals. Due to max deals LBJ and KD aren't allowed to make what they are actually worth.

This. People get hung up on the idea of "max deals" only going to the absolute best players. Lebron and KD should be making $30M+, and by that scale next tier players should still be making more than what the current max is.

AddiX
05-26-2014, 08:25 PM
You'll never win with kyrie, he's incredibly stupid and immature.

Talent wise, has a max player, mentally, not even close.

Corey
05-26-2014, 10:11 PM
He should get it. He's 23.

Just be confident in his health, which is a big question mark.

I guess the good thing is that he hasn't repeated the same serious injury multiple times.Concussion, sprained right shoulder, broken hand, broken index finger, fractured jaw, hyperextended knee, sprained left shoulder, right nasal fracture, bruised knee...He's just really unlucky.

Corey
05-26-2014, 10:15 PM
You'll never win with kyrie, he's incredibly stupid and immature.

Talent wise, has a max player, mentally, not even close.

A kid that came into the league at 19 is......still a kid? No way.

PS, you want to talk about his mental game? He lead the NBA in clutch-time scoring in 12-13. His overall percentages jumped up to 47+% in "clutch time". He's definitely mentally weak...

AddiX
05-26-2014, 10:29 PM
A kid that came into the league at 19 is......still a kid? No way.

PS, you want to talk about his mental game? He lead the NBA in clutch-time scoring in 12-13. His overall percentages jumped up to 47+% in "clutch time". He's definitely mentally weak...

I never said he's mentally weak, learn to read before you spew your nonsense.

I said he's stupid and immature. His teammates can't stand him, no matter who is around him, he's shown 0 ability to improve around them, he thinks he's better than is, and you have to wonder if he's going to be a
Monta Ellis or a Derek Rose.

It took forever for Ellis to understand what winning in the NBA took, while Rose after his first season made an incredible jump. Talent wise, both players are amazing.

IMO, Kyrie is one of those guys that no one can tell anything to, and it will take him years of losing before he learns.

Corey
05-26-2014, 10:51 PM
I never said he's mentally weak, learn to read before you spew your nonsense.
You said "Talent wise he's a max player, mentally not even close"....Pretty save to infer that you meant he wasn't mentally strong. Maybe you should phrase your thoughts better so it doesn't get misunderstood.


I said he's stupid and immature. His teammates can't stand him, no matter who is around him, he's shown 0 ability to improve around them, he thinks he's better than is, and you have to wonder if he's going to be a
Monta Ellis or a Derek Rose.Please source which teammates besides Waiters aren't fond of him.

Waiters is the only one I know of that had issues, and he was pissy he wasn't getting looks when Thompson and Kyrie were. Newsflash: It happens on every team. The most talented players are expected to carry the offense and get more touches at time. "Buddy ball" happens on every team starting in middle school.

Cleveland was shopping Waiters at the time on top of it all.

Additionally, Waiters and Irving both endorsed Brown coming back next year...They're on the same page these days.


It took forever for Ellis to understand what winning in the NBA took, while Rose after his first season made an incredible jump. Talent wise, both players are amazing.

Rose was also surrounded by great coaching and role players. What max player does Cleveland have to pair with Irving again? Say what you want about Boozer, but the Bulls made a real effort to surround Rose with good players.

Oh and Ellis? How is that even comparable? He's played the same way with the same motor and same demeanor his entire career. He just teamed up with Dirk when he got the chance. He's been the same player.

Cleveland's problem has been no continuity at the coaching position, lack of a high end supporting cast, and overall injuries at bad times. Not Kyrie's motor or mentality.


IMO, Kyrie is one of those guys that no one can tell anything to, and it will take him years of losing before he learns.Based on what? You seem to be basing your opinion on assumptions.

AddiX
05-26-2014, 11:12 PM
@Corey

I actually agree with a lot of what your sAying, I don't blame all of cle's problems on Kyrie. And i agree, rose was def in a better situation. But he still made a ridiculous jump in changing his game from a individual stand point, to being a better team player.

Kyrie has still yet to do that. There's been lots of talk about how bad he was in then locker room, problems with Dion, coaches, and other players, and how he basically does what he wants.

You might be right, maybe he will make a jump, it took John Wall years before he decided to mature and accept the NBA game. Maybe Kyrie will follow that path, but IMO the guy really doesn't seem anywhere close to that.

TheMightyHumph
05-26-2014, 11:17 PM
http://prosportsdaily.com/articles/cavs-dont-want-to-give-irving-max-extension-306318.html

It has been reported that the Cavs don't want to offer Kyrie Ivring a max deal.

I'm inclined to agree with them.

I was happy to see his assist-to-turnover ratio improve this year, but his percentages actually went down, not a good trend for a guard in his third season.

Shooting percentage aside, my biggest concern with Irving is how injury prone he is.

He missed much of his freshman year, a big chuck on his rookie season, 30 games of his sophomore season, and then went down with an injury again this year (though he managed to return and play a career-high 71 games.


The injuries is the biggest concern I think. Would you pay a max-contract for a player who was unavailable for the post season 3 out of the last 4 years?

PLEASE NOTE: The term "max deal" implies the maximum Kyrie is eligible for, which isn't the same as a max deal that LBJ is eligible for. JAvale McGee, for example, is currently on a 'max contract' and is only making 10-13 mill a year during the duration of the contract.

So 'max' in this context essentially means 10-12 million.

Of course, Kyrie is technically available for the "super-max" deal as he had made 2 ASG and therefore is allowed (like Derrick Rose and Westbrook) to make 30% of the cap. That, he is NOT worth.


TO THE MODS: Could you add a pole? I meant to put one on here. Sorry.

He might be in the future, but as I don't own a crystal ball, I would say at this point that he is not.

PleaseBeNice
05-26-2014, 11:27 PM
I wouldnt want to max him out

sammyvine
05-27-2014, 04:31 AM
He seems a diva. If you are going to be a diva at least have the ability on the court but kyrie only seems good enough for leading you to the lottery every year.
He couldnt take his team to the playoffs over the bobcats lol

sammyvine
05-27-2014, 04:33 AM
You said "Talent wise he's a max player, mentally not even close"....Pretty save to infer that you meant he wasn't mentally strong. Maybe you should phrase your thoughts better so it doesn't get misunderstood.

Please source which teammates besides Waiters aren't fond of him.

Waiters is the only one I know of that had issues, and he was pissy he wasn't getting looks when Thompson and Kyrie were. Newsflash: It happens on every team. The most talented players are expected to carry the offense and get more touches at time. "Buddy ball" happens on every team starting in middle school.

Cleveland was shopping Waiters at the time on top of it all.

Additionally, Waiters and Irving both endorsed Brown coming back next year...They're on the same page these days.


Rose was also surrounded by great coaching and role players. What max player does Cleveland have to pair with Irving again? Say what you want about Boozer, but the Bulls made a real effort to surround Rose with good players.

Oh and Ellis? How is that even comparable? He's played the same way with the same motor and same demeanor his entire career. He just teamed up with Dirk when he got the chance. He's been the same player.

Cleveland's problem has been no continuity at the coaching position, lack of a high end supporting cast, and overall injuries at bad times. Not Kyrie's motor or mentality.

Based on what? You seem to be basing your opinion on assumptions.
Deng,Waiters, Jack and TT should be enough help to be an 8th seed in the EC especially if irving is that good

CousinsEvansDUO
05-27-2014, 04:37 AM
Does isaiah thomas deserve a max contract? Because he is a BETTER PLAYER than irving. No way.

D-Leethal
05-27-2014, 09:24 AM
If your going by precedent, which you should, than of course at 23 he is going to get the max.