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View Full Version : NBA All Time ReDraft (2) Winterfell vs. (3) San Jose



killthesux
05-23-2014, 12:29 PM
Hello Everyone. Welcome to the NBA All-time redraft playoffs. These will be a battle between two made up teams from our host of GMs in to see who reigns superiority over all of basketball. Please read the write-ups and vote for who you think would win in a 7 game series.

San Jose Depth Chart

PG: Dennis Johnson(32)/Jamal Crawford(10)/Steve Kerr(8)
SG: Michael Finley(28)/Tony Allen(10)/Steve Kerr(10)
SF: Grant Hill(36) / Toni Kukoc(12)
PF: Pau Gasol(30)/ Dave Debuscherre(16)/Lou Hudson(4)
C: Wilt Chamberlain(36)/ Marc Gasol(12)

vs.

Winterfell Depth Chart

Patrick Ewing (35), Rick Mahorn (8), Vin Baker (5)
Dirk Nowitzki (38), Rick Mahorn (5), Vin Baker (5)
Shane Battier (18), Bernard King (25), Marques Johnson (5)
Bruce Bowen (30), Bernard King (8), Marques Johnson/Shane Battier (10)
Tony Parker (38), Derek Fisher (10)



Winterfell Write Up

- STARTING Depth chart, obviously would adjust based on the series.

Again we are selling chemistry, the bench is filled with big playoff performers, and all time great role players. Fisher is going to play safe basketball when Parker is out, give us spacing, and clutch shooting. With any luck Mahorn pisses off Wilt enough to get him ejected. Bernard King is going to be our super sixth man this game, providing instant offense will still playing 30+ minutes a night. Like I said will let Wilt try and beat us starting two all time great perimeter defenders in Battier and Bowen to play Finley and Hill. Finley and Hill are going to be relied upon to space the floor for their team and are going to have a hard time doing it against our wing duo. If we need more offense Marques Johnson who led a post season in PER will come in, if it's defense will role in Battier for extended time. I think our personnel lines up real nicely here.

Let's talk about Wilt Chamberlain.
Let's remember his numbers are beyond inflated, playing in a lesser era, blah, blah, blah. We all know this is true.
However let's think about this from more than a numbers perspective because comparing pure numbers from generation to generation is fool hearty.
Wilt was fifth in scoring on his own team during the finals when he won his first championship. He was third in scoring on his own team when he won the second time. Wilt had to sacrifice his own numbers for his team to be successful. That's no surprise. Wilt may have had the biggest ego in sports all time, he admittedly sacrificed winning to pump up his own statistics, there was a season where his only goal was to lead the league in assists. Now in an all time game where every elite player in history is thrown into a pool is Wilt going to be focused on winning? Or is he going to be focused on leading the league in points and rebounds? This would be a stupid question for most players but this is a very viable question for Wilt Chamberlain. For those who don't remember the infamous 50-25 season of Wilt's ended in a second round loss against a Celtics team with superior chemistry. Wilt is more than welcome to try and beat us on his own. Ewing is no Wilt but defensively he can body Wilt and make things very difficult.

Let's talk about Grant Hill. (1999-00)
Grant Hill was a phenomenal talent who never became an elite player due to injuries. We aren't giving him a pass, there is no what if factor to this game.
In his best season Grant Hill:
25.8 PPG, 6.6 RPG, 5.2 APG, 49 FG%, 35 3P%, 80 FT%, 24.5 PER, .565 TS%
He led the Pistons to the playoffs where they were swept by none other than the Miami Heat. Bruce Bowen was on that Heat team helping force Hill to shoot 38% in the series, to the tune of 11 points a night.
In eleven meetings prior to Bowen being washed up and the Hill becoming a spot up shooter/role player Hill managed to shoot above 45% only four times. Bowen held Hill under 40% or less shooting on five of those occasions.
If you weren't sold on Bruce Bowen's ability to make things difficult for Grant hill this series you should be now.

Let's talk about our offense a bit.

Since the 05-06 Season when Dirk went to the NBA Finals. (That season he had second most offensive win shares in a post season ever...) Until the 2010-11 Post season when he won a ring.
26.5 PPG, 10.1 RPG, 48 FG%, 36 3P%, 90 FT%, 26.2 PER, .602 TS%, 13.9 WS, .231 WS/48
Players with multiple post season runs that include 26+ PER and 25+ WS/48:
Jordan: 6
Kareem: 4
LeBron: 4
*Dirk: 3
Wilt: 2
Duncan: 2
Hagan: 2
*Marques Johnson: 2
Hakeem: 2
CP3: 2
Dolph: 2
Dirk is underrated as an all time great, as a guy who can carry your offense and find you buckets at any time at an extremely efficient rate there are very few better. I wish Nowitzki had a two way center like Ewing to help cover up Nowitzki's average defense his whole career... Who is going to cover Dirk this series? It's the biggest mismatch by far. Ewing has a far better chance at containing a Wilt we are daring to beat us than Pau does chasing Dirk around.
Dirk Nowitzki led teams are 8-0 against Pau Gasol teams in the post-season.
While Nowitzki is a player who constantly elevates his game in the post season, Gasol is someone who has been noted for playing small.
In 8 playoff games against each other:
Dirk: 28.3 PPG, 8.5 RPG. .536 FG%, .533 3PT%, .889 FT%, 1.5 TOV
Pau: 16.4 PPG, 8.0 RPG, .429 FG%, N/A, .745 FT%, 2.1 TOV
Dirk eats this matchup. He eats him at both ends.

Patrick Ewing (35), Rick Mahorn (8), Vin Baker (5)
Dirk Nowitzki (38), Rick Mahorn (5), Vin Baker (5)
Shane Battier (18), Bernard King (25), Marques Johnson (5)
Bruce Bowen (30), Bernard King (8), Marques Johnson/Shane Battier (10)
Tony Parker (38), Derek Fisher (10)

Winterfell has home court advantage

Matter.
05-23-2014, 12:32 PM
I am sorry Ebbs, other then Dirk, all your other matchups will have a very hard time scoring, Parker will be smothered by DJ, King will have difficulty against Hill and Ewing is not beating Wilt. So I do not see your team going off at all in terms of scoring.

Ebbs
05-23-2014, 01:40 PM
Well you're wrong. Lol Wilt was far from a defensive stud.

I also threw out some evidence. Your feelings* aren't overly important.

todu82
05-23-2014, 02:10 PM
Winterfell

Ebbs
05-23-2014, 02:17 PM
Bernard King in his four healthyish post season:

22.6 PER, .603 TS%, .177 WS/48, 27.2 PPG

Grant Hill in his four healthy post seasons:

22.9 PER, .516 TS%, .112 WS/48, 19.3 PPG

I already proved Bowen made Hill's life miserable. Hill became a better defender as he aged as well. By subbing King in I'm also going to get him on the floor against your second unit.

PatsSoxKnicks
05-23-2014, 02:18 PM
I think Winterfell is the better team overall but damn, what a terrible matchup for them. I think this series probably does end up as a low scoring series because I don't like San Jose's offense much outside of Hill-Pau and Wilt and Wilt is going to have a tougher time scoring on Ewing. At the same time though, Parker is going to have a ton of trouble with DJ and King with Hill. Ewing also is going to lose that matchup to Wilt.

Ebbs
05-23-2014, 02:21 PM
This is the opposite of my matchup in the first round, and IMO far from a tough matchup.

Their three best scorers are all going to be bothered on defense.

Ebbs
05-23-2014, 02:27 PM
Lol also love how writeups have changed. My write up was mostly my notes as I was ****ing around of PBF

KnicksorBust
05-23-2014, 02:28 PM
Need to go through and read Winterfell's writeup but looking at the starting 5 my gut says San Jose. I actually hate that Battier and Bowen are both starting. That puts a ton of pressure on Parker-Dirk-Ewing to score and Parker is guarded by a legendary good defender in DJ, Ewing is going to be fading away all series because he'll have no chance muscling up to Wilt. With 2 questionable offensive players and 2 other players with tough matchups that's going to be a long series for Winterfell. Even Dirk will be covered by Dave Debusschere for some of the series. That's all-nba defenders against all of Winterfell's best offensive options.

Ebbs
05-23-2014, 02:31 PM
Lol Tony Parker, Dirk Nowitzki, and Patrick Ewing with excellent floor spacing can't hold it down on offense? Do people really want me to make a team of five #1 options and just let them play junk ball?

KnicksorBust
05-23-2014, 02:38 PM
Lol Tony Parker, Dirk Nowitzki, and Patrick Ewing with excellent floor spacing can't hold it down on offense? Do people really want me to make a team of five #1 options and just let them play junk ball?

You did this in the last thread. Rather than actually engage in a debate you just try and create this vibe where any points made against your team are absurd instead of actually addressing legitimate problems that San Jose presents in this series. Maybe you just think this style works? You can't possibly be this confident with Parker going against DJ and Ewing going against Wilt.

Ebbs
05-23-2014, 02:49 PM
You did this in the last thread. Rather than actually engage in a debate you just try and create this vibe where any points made against your team are absurd instead of actually addressing legitimate problems that San Jose presents in this series. Maybe you just think this style works? You can't possibly be this confident with Parker going against DJ and Ewing going against Wilt.

Wilt wasn't a defensive monster. Ewing is my third/fourth option. Ewing is being overlooked entirely. He's a pretty good defensive player. All I'm asking him to do is limit Wilt a bit which he's capable of.

KoB when did you become so damn arrogant. I rarely engage with you because you compliment yourself as you debate with yourself...

Also like you said you didn't read the points I made in my write up. So if someone wants acknowledge what's already out there than fine. But so far I'm the only person who has made a point in this thread.

Sadds The Gr8
05-23-2014, 04:19 PM
shouldn't have tried to get cute. Starting battier is a horrible move imo and will probably sway my vote.

Ebbs
05-23-2014, 04:23 PM
shouldn't have tried to get cute. Starting battier is a horrible move imo and will probably sway my vote.

King plays the same amount of minutes just gives us better matchups. Don't see how it hurts us.

Manu and Terry were key options off the bench for contenders. There is a method to the madness

Chronz
05-23-2014, 04:45 PM
So why was Wilt not a defensive monster?

Chronz
05-23-2014, 04:54 PM
What was the point in mentioning Wilt's 50PPG season and his loss to a stacked Celtics team? I brought this up with MBT not too long ago, everyone has something to say about that 50-25 mark, but nobody brings up that he changed his game right before the playoffs to be more of a decoy. All for the sake of the team and because his coached asked him.

I dont agree that Wilt cant be trusted in this fantasy tournament, he would relish the challenge and enjoy the fact that his teammates are equally talented than his competition, a rarity in his day.

Shammyguy3
05-23-2014, 05:22 PM
Anther tough matchup for Ebbs. Let's see if he makes it 2-0 with bad matchups. Let the debating begin!

KnicksorBust
05-23-2014, 05:36 PM
Wilt wasn't a defensive monster.


So why was Wilt not a defensive monster?

I'll let you address this with Chronz.


Ewing is my third/fourth option. Ewing is being overlooked entirely. He's a pretty good defensive player. All I'm asking him to do is limit Wilt a bit which he's capable of.

The first issue I have is that in your starting lineup Ewing is either your 2nd or 3rd. Next, what makes you so sure that he can even limit Wilt? The only historically logical examples would be Hakeem or Shaq and both, I can tell you from first-hand experience, absolutely destroyed Ewing.


KoB when did you become so damn arrogant. I rarely engage with you because you compliment yourself as you debate with yourself...

To be honest, this comment came out of left field for me. We've done a lot of games together so I was surprised to read this. I wasn't even speaking for myself. You seem to have this vibe for other people as well. You started the thread by laughing at Matter's points...


Well you're wrong. Lol Wilt was far from a defensive stud.

I also threw out some evidence. Your feelings* aren't overly important.

Then you laughed at my arguments.


Lol Tony Parker, Dirk Nowitzki, and Patrick Ewing with excellent floor spacing can't hold it down on offense? Do people really want me to make a team of five #1 options and just let them play junk ball?

I don't think anyone said the latter. Starting Battier and Bowen definitely seems redundant though. I wouldn't intentionally start multiple #5 options in an all-time game.


Also like you said you didn't read the points I made in my write up. So if someone wants acknowledge what's already out there than fine. But so far I'm the only person who has made a point in this thread.

I made several points you just chose not to address them.


I actually hate that Battier and Bowen are both starting. That puts a ton of pressure on Parker-Dirk-Ewing to score...

Point #1.


Parker is guarded by a legendary good defender in DJ

Point #2.


Ewing is going to be fading away all series because he'll have no chance muscling up to Wilt.

Point #3.


Even Dirk will be covered by Dave Debusschere for some of the series. That's all-nba defenders against all of Winterfell's best offensive options.

Point #4.

All of them, for me, make San Jose seem like the logical team to advance.

D1JM
05-23-2014, 05:48 PM
ow in an all time game where every elite player in history is thrown into a pool is Wilt going to be focused on winning? Or is he going to be focused on leading the league in points and rebounds? This would be a stupid question for most players but this is a very viable question for Wilt Chamberlain

he did change and won a championship for hannum and if hannum would of stayed with the 76ers, maybe they would of won more. it's a what if situation, but the 76ers had finally figured out how to play together.

i dont really understand why wilt wasn't a defensive force. what makes you say he wasn't?

Ebbs
05-23-2014, 06:17 PM
So why was Wilt not a defensive monster?

He was recognized twice as an All-NBA defender in a possible six seasons. Wilt was who he wanted to be when he wanted to be.


What was the point in mentioning Wilt's 50PPG season and his loss to a stacked Celtics team? I brought this up with MBT not too long ago, everyone has something to say about that 50-25 mark, but nobody brings up that he changed his game right before the playoffs to be more of a decoy. All for the sake of the team and because his coached asked him.

I dont agree that Wilt cant be trusted in this fantasy tournament, he would relish the challenge and enjoy the fact that his teammates are equally talented than his competition, a rarity in his day.

How was it a rarity in his day?


Anther tough matchup for Ebbs. Let's see if he makes it 2-0 with bad matchups. Let the debating begin!

Lol.


I'll let you address this with Chronz.

The first issue I have is that in your starting lineup Ewing is either your 2nd or 3rd. Next, what makes you so sure that he can even limit Wilt? The only historically logical examples would be Hakeem or Shaq and both, I can tell you from first-hand experience, absolutely destroyed Ewing.

Well can I first say the consensus on this site is that Nate Thurmond gave Wilt trouble correct? 6-11 225 Thurmond, who was a five time all defensive player and a great shot blocker? Patrick Ewing at 7 feet 240 who made multiple all defensive teams and was a great shot blocker. I'm not arguing Wilt would get shut the **** down. I acknowledged he would get his, but I don't think it's unfair to think Ewing makes it difficult.

To be honest, this comment came out of left field for me. We've done a lot of games together so I was surprised to read this. I wasn't even speaking for myself. You seem to have this vibe for other people as well. You started the thread by laughing at Matter's points...

I'm not talking specifically about this thread. I was out of bounds. Matter didn't make any points though. He just said his team would win. Whoopy.


Then you laughed at my arguments.


I don't think anyone said the latter. Starting Battier and Bowen definitely seems redundant though. I wouldn't intentionally start multiple #5 options in an all-time game.

I'm trying to go with a proven winning formula. The Spurs play match-ups, they wager that their best players can find ways to score using three and d players to supplement them. They do this specifically so the majority of their touches go to their main guys while not allowing for double teams. I'm an improved Spurs offensively. So I'm trying to mimic that strategy to an extent. I don't understand the bench thing being a problem, King gets to play all over the board and can be more of a focus when he's in. Battier, and Bowen make life hell for their perimeter scorers.

I made several points you just chose not to address them.



Point #1.

Young Parker held his own against prime Gary Payton. Prime Parker has always found ways to be effective in the post-season. I give DJ credit but is it a crippling matchup I don't think so.


Point #2.

Kind of addressed this one already.

Point #3.

I don't think Dave D is going to limit Dirk, I know Pau isn't so if they take out Pau they sacrfice more O.

Point #4.

All of them, for me, make San Jose seem like the logical team to advance.


he did change and won a championship for hannum and if hannum would of stayed with the 76ers, maybe they would of won more. it's a what if situation, but the 76ers had finally figured out how to play together.

i dont really understand why wilt wasn't a defensive force. what makes you say he wasn't?

More or less above.

Ebbs
05-23-2014, 07:54 PM
I'd also like to say my point about PSD bias and politics is becoming a problem. (Didn't say anything about it in this thread.)

But just as proof I put the starting five of each team on twitter with one question. Team A or Team B who wins in a seven game series.

In the course of twenty minutes the vote was 26-5 in favour of Winterfell.

Pretty big discrepancy.

Matter.
05-23-2014, 07:58 PM
I'd also like to say my point about PSD bias and politics is becoming a problem. (Didn't say anything about it in this thread.)

But just as proof I put the starting five of each team on twitter with one question. Team A or Team B who wins in a seven game series.

In the course of twenty minutes the vote was 26-5 in favour of Winterfell.

Pretty big discrepancy.

But Twitter has a lot of idiotic people on it

Lucky.
05-23-2014, 07:58 PM
I'd also like to say my point about PSD bias and politics is becoming a problem. (Didn't say anything about it in this thread.)

But just as proof I put the starting five of each team on twitter with one question. Team A or Team B who wins in a seven game series.

In the course of twenty minutes the vote was 26-5 in favour of Winterfell.

Pretty big discrepancy.

From my experience, Twitter is your typical ESPN following fan. I also don't know who's following you, so I guess my point doesn't really matter.

Ebbs
05-23-2014, 08:03 PM
But Twitter has a lot of idiotic people on it

So does PSD.


From my experience, Twitter is your typical ESPN following fan. I also don't know who's following you, so I guess my point doesn't really matter.

I don't know who whose following me either to be honest. Mostly people who like basketball.

Regardless of whether you like twitter as an outlet the sample size is much better than the 20ish votes these threads get over three days.

D1JM
05-23-2014, 08:03 PM
I'd also like to say my point about PSD bias and politics is becoming a problem. (Didn't say anything about it in this thread.)

But just as proof I put the starting five of each team on twitter with one question. Team A or Team B who wins in a seven game series.

In the course of twenty minutes the vote was 26-5 in favour of Winterfell.

Pretty big discrepancy.

probably a bunch of Game of Thrones fan boys voting :)

Ebbs
05-23-2014, 08:05 PM
probably a bunch of Game of Thrones fan boys voting :)

Hahahaha. I didn't use the team names. They were Team A and Team B. But I bet if I had it would've garnered a few extra votes.

Sadds The Gr8
05-23-2014, 08:08 PM
I'd also like to say my point about PSD bias and politics is becoming a problem. (Didn't say anything about it in this thread.)

But just as proof I put the starting five of each team on twitter with one question. Team A or Team B who wins in a seven game series.

In the course of twenty minutes the vote was 26-5 in favour of Winterfell.

Pretty big discrepancy.
Whichever forum is judging the teams doesn't matter. There are even bigger idiots in Twitter than there are on psd. The problem now is with the quantity of votes, not quality

Ebbs
05-23-2014, 08:10 PM
Whichever forum is judging the teams doesn't matter. There are even bigger idiots in Twitter than there are on psd. The problem now is with the quantity of votes, not quality

Disagree. Like as much as one can disagree. The minds of most psd posters are stagnant and fixed. The PSD opinion always wins right or wrong.

TylerSL
05-24-2014, 01:10 AM
Without even looking at the teams I'm rooting for Winterfell because of the name alone.

#KingoftheNorth #Robb4life

Matter.
05-24-2014, 02:21 AM
Smfh...... ^

Ebbs
05-24-2014, 02:31 AM
Without even looking at the teams I'm rooting for Winterfell because of the name alone.

#KingoftheNorth #Robb4life

Funny part is you gave more reasoning than my opponents.

Kaner
05-24-2014, 02:36 AM
I'd also like to say my point about PSD bias and politics is becoming a problem. (Didn't say anything about it in this thread.)

But just as proof I put the starting five of each team on twitter with one question. Team A or Team B who wins in a seven game series.

In the course of twenty minutes the vote was 26-5 in favour of Winterfell.

Pretty big discrepancy.

Stop with the conspiracy theories everytime you start to lose a poll, it came off as desperate in the last thread and it comes off as desperate now.

You asked KoB when he became so arrogant but your the one whose making it seem like the only way your team loses if people are stupid sheep. Now that's arrogant.

Ebbs
05-24-2014, 03:07 AM
It's not a conspiracy theory.

The twitter results prove it. I'm not saying it's against me personally. It's against and for certain players.

PSD is decided on everything already. Based on the opinions of a few who've drilled those theories in over and over.

Sadds The Gr8
05-24-2014, 03:51 AM
Stop with the conspiracy theories everytime you start to lose a poll, it came off as desperate in the last thread and it comes off as desperate now.

You asked KoB when he became so arrogant but your the one whose making it seem like the only way your team loses if people are stupid sheep. Now that's arrogant.

It's ironic cuz ebbs has won by far the most of anyone in these games

Ebbs
05-24-2014, 04:05 AM
Also on Kaners point. I ended up winning the last matchup didn't I?

Secondly I called the exact round I'd lose in this game. I had a top ranked team in every PR, and yet before I knew the seedings I predicted my teams ceiling? Why is that I wonder? It's because these games follow a very specific pattern.

Sadds The Gr8
05-24-2014, 09:41 AM
All-time games never have a runaway team like u had in the mock last year. There's too much talent for that to happen. since the mj team got ****ed (me partially to blame), the winning team was bound to be a random team and there were definitely gonna be sleepers. Sometimes the nba forum has different opinions than gm's in the game. Look how hard tredigs was debating for that LeBron team....He even argued more than the gm did

Kaner
05-24-2014, 01:09 PM
It's not a conspiracy theory.

The twitter results prove it. I'm not saying it's against me personally. It's against and for certain players.

PSD is decided on everything already. Based on the opinions of a few who've drilled those theories in over and over.
No the twitter results don't prove anything, you can't actually believe that you should be winning this matchup 26-5 can you? This is and should be very close and I find it alot easier to believe that people who regularly discuss basketball have a better grasp on these teams and the players then randoms on twitter. Hell half of New York will see Ewing and vote for you while the other half will see Bernard King and still vote for you regardless of who else is on your team.

Also on Kaners point. I ended up winning the last matchup didn't I?

Secondly I called the exact round I'd lose in this game. I had a top ranked team in every PR, and yet before I knew the seedings I predicted my teams ceiling? Why is that I wonder? It's because these games follow a very specific pattern.

I don't see the significance of you winning in response to what I said. My point is you started *****ing about sheep not even half way through the poll when you were down by like 4 votes and it seemed desperate.

I don't know this pattern but am going to assume your referring to the fact that you didn't have a top 10 player all-time so you didn't think you'd have a chance in the first place. This I'd agree with and it isn't fair but it also isn't unreasonable of the voters to vote this way. When two very even teams meet talent and fit wise, it'd make sense that in basketball the team with the best player probably wins.

Lucky.
05-24-2014, 01:50 PM
It's not a conspiracy theory.

The twitter results prove it. I'm not saying it's against me personally. It's against and for certain players.

PSD is decided on everything already. Based on the opinions of a few who've drilled those theories in over and over.

How is this so? You take two scenarios; one being Twitter, the other being PSD. You can't take only two examples and say one proves the other wrong. That just doesn't make any sense. How do we know PSD isn't proving Twitter wrong?

To continue off of something similar to what Kaner said, who's to say you don't have people just voting for the Knicks? You're a Mavericks fan, is it at all possible you have Dallas fans following you that are voting for Dirk? I don't know, as I mentioned before I have no clue who's following you on Twitter. You then replied with: "I don't know who whose following me either to be honest. Mostly people who like basketball."

EDIT: Something I also wanted to add to this was none of these people know the time we put into these. Some of the plain ole' regular NBA forum posters don't either, but at least some do as well as the GM's that participated. Most would simply take 20 seconds to decide their vote. It's not like they would see your tweet and save it thinking they'll decide in a few days like some do in these. GM's wouldn't be able to make an argument, either. Arguments rarely sway my vote, but for most GM's in this, arguments are what make these games fun for them. Something you wouldn't be able to do.

So you're saying you would rather have people that you have absolutely no idea about decide these match-ups? In an ATRD where you could easily have some nine year old who's never seen potentially all but one player on a team play? How would we be able to stop people from voting for themselves when they can just as easily make a new account? I know the easy answer here would be to just have a Tweet restriction similar to the below 100 post count, which could work. But it would also be much, much easier to ask for votes, wouldn't you say?

I voted for you in this match-up, even though I thought it was extremely close and could easily change my vote every time I view this thread. That's why I took so long to vote and am still not 100% sure on if I voted for the right team. But I don't agree with your argument at all.

Ebbs
05-24-2014, 02:25 PM
The vast difference in the vote demonstrated a clear difference in mind set. There was no precedent with twitter, sure they may like a player or whatever but those biases will always exist no matter where. "Knowledgeable" posters on PSD over and under rate players all the time based on how much they like them.

The Sheep argument from the last thread wasn't because I was losing it's because I was down like eight votes immediately. The arguments might not sway lucky but many people agree or disagree immediately with evidence out in front if them. Shammy had like 36 hours to pour gasoline on a fire before I could stop the burning. It's like it was a boxing match and I wasn't allowed to throw punches until the third round. (I'm not blaming Shammy I would've done the same thing. I was out of town, no foul play or anything.) The point is PSD also has it engrained in their minds that if a poster isn't defending or arguing for their team they have the lesser team. I've literally seen people say in a thread "since the other team was to lazy to send in a write up I'm voting for team B." I'd say being led by one side definitely warranted the sheep reference. On the other side as soon as I got in here and spammed the thread, kept fighting, kept posting stats the matchup swung my way.

How to win a PSD game:

1) Always have a PSD top 10 player. (Now this doesn't always mean one of the ten best players , I'm talking about one of the ten biggest names on the forum right now. (MBT had a great team, deserved to win. But Moses and Pippen were the two best players in the series, Durant was the biggest name.) Don't worry about twitter being full of kids so is PSD.

2) Avoid anyone PSD has decided they've hated. This is pretty easy because you'll know it. Iverson, Kobe (this is sort of warranted because Lakers fans overrated him forever), anyone that is an elite offensive player and terrible defensive player. Anyone that has lower efficiency and higher usage, even if they were a great PSD has labeled them a chucker forever.

3) Finally always make a big trade at the end of the game. Like I said I knew my teams window. Rule three was the biggest factor in that. In our society there's always something newer, bigger, fresher etc... People want to see constant improvement. People who draft great teams but rarely make trades rarely win. That is a fact. People see a trade and see a team improve but they also disregard teams who stay put.

4) Politics: suck dick, rosterbate, and be online to defend your team.

Notice how none of those four steps is build the best basketball team possible?

Honestly I don't care if I lose but it's become apparent over the last year that we need to make a change in these games. PSD has seen the combinations over and over. The pattern of GM behaviour mixed with the consensus mindset of PSD has made these games stale. My point isn't to whine about me losing, my point is this problem needs a remedy.

Bruno
05-24-2014, 02:58 PM
Ebbs, I hate the politics of these games too. in last years redraft the entire redraft community was absolutely bashing my team. I had Davis/Ibaka/Rondo/Dragic and everyone said I wasn't a playoff team :laugh2: I ended up breaking up that core to please my fellow GMs so I could get the votes, creating a worse team in the process.

i voted for the other team because of the Wilt Ewing match up. I think Wilt is underrated and that he'd eat Ewings lunch. i try to avoid which posters manage what team before i vote too. this is a close one no doubt but your twitter results surprise me, slightly.

roshan3ai
05-24-2014, 03:46 PM
The vast difference in the vote demonstrated a clear difference in mind set. There was no precedent with twitter, sure they may like a player or whatever but those biases will always exist no matter where. "Knowledgeable" posters on PSD over and under rate players all the time based on how much they like them.

The Sheep argument from the last thread wasn't because I was losing it's because I was down like eight votes immediately. The arguments might not sway lucky but many people agree or disagree immediately with evidence out in front if them. Shammy had like 36 hours to pour gasoline on a fire before I could stop the burning. It's like it was a boxing match and I wasn't allowed to throw punches until the third round. (I'm not blaming Shammy I would've done the same thing. I was out of town, no foul play or anything.) The point is PSD also has it engrained in their minds that if a poster isn't defending or arguing for their team they have the lesser team. I've literally seen people say in a thread "since the other team was to lazy to send in a write up I'm voting for team B." I'd say being led by one side definitely warranted the sheep reference. On the other side as soon as I got in here and spammed the thread, kept fighting, kept posting stats the matchup swung my way.

How to win a PSD game:

1) Always have a PSD top 10 player. (Now this doesn't always mean one of the ten best players , I'm talking about one of the ten biggest names on the forum right now. (MBT had a great team, deserved to win. But Moses and Pippen were the two best players in the series, Durant was the biggest name.) Don't worry about twitter being full of kids so is PSD.

2) Avoid anyone PSD has decided they've hated. This is pretty easy because you'll know it. Iverson, Kobe (this is sort of warranted because Lakers fans overrated him forever), anyone that is an elite offensive player and terrible defensive player. Anyone that has lower efficiency and higher usage, even if they were a great PSD has labeled them a chucker forever.

3) Finally always make a big trade at the end of the game. Like I said I knew my teams window. Rule three was the biggest factor in that. In our society there's always something newer, bigger, fresher etc... People want to see constant improvement. People who draft great teams but rarely make trades rarely win. That is a fact. People see a trade and see a team improve but they also disregard teams who stay put.

4) Politics: suck dick, rosterbate, and be online to defend your team.

Notice how none of those four steps is build the best basketball team possible?

Honestly I don't care if I lose but it's become apparent over the last year that we need to make a change in these games. PSD has seen the combinations over and over. The pattern of GM behaviour mixed with the consensus mindset of PSD has made these games stale. My point isn't to whine about me losing, my point is this problem needs a remedy.

That's not necissarily true. What blockbuster did PSK make last year in the all-time? How bout Jam? Actually, I made a big trade at the end and it killed me even though my team got better. Hurt matchups in the playoffs.

Even in that Re-Draft that CF and Chaca won a couple years back, they didn't make any big deals and won with CP3.

Numbers 1,2, and 4 are pretty on point though. Especially two, because nobody has the capability of thinking outside the box. A guy like Monta Ellis is the perfect example. Did he become significantly more efficient overnight or was he put in the right situation for him to succeed? If he was paired with anyone last year as a second option he'd be marked as an extremely inefficient chucker even if he was in a great fit.

I still think that building the best team is extremely important. But the things you listed play a bigger role than they should.

It kinda was like the PR's in this game gave people a basis to rank off of. KoB was talking about how his rankings were on point in the lounge. How do we know it's him being on point and not just people taking those rankings for more than they should? The rankings were extremely similar, and it's pretty likely that a lot of people, whether or not it subconsciously, took those rankings for common opinion.

No offense to Seattle, but they destroyed their team with a couple late game trades and they were still ranked fourth somehow? I wasn't ranked high after two PR's and stuck at 6 even though I think I had a much better team than a couple of teams ranked above me. It was like because I wasn't a top odd team in the PR's, it was ingrained in GMs' heads that it wasn't. The PR's help people improve their teams, but damn they encourage people to think a lot less.

Lucky.
05-24-2014, 04:22 PM
The point is PSD also has it engrained in their minds that if a poster isn't defending or arguing for their team they have the lesser team. I've literally seen people say in a thread "since the other team was to lazy to send in a write up I'm voting for team B." I'd say being led by one side definitely warranted the sheep reference. On the other side as soon as I got in here and spammed the thread, kept fighting, kept posting stats the matchup swung my way.

I do agree with this and believe it isn't right. As I said, rarely does an argument completely sway my opinion for me to vote for whoever is winning an argument, nor should it. Or for others for that matter. I understand arguing is a big part of the game as I also mentioned before. But it shouldn't have that much of an impact. Through my first two match-ups I've yet to send in a write-up, even though I have made a few points throughout the thread.

This is also why I won't be doing the mock this year, or mocks in general for now on. I am by no means complaining about it, because I understand that's what the mock is and to many what makes it the best game on PSD. I just don't have the time or the desire to write a novel for a FA. Last year we didn't have to, we built through trades. This year with all the top heavy FA's you'd be forced to if you want to win.


How to win a PSD game:

1) Always have a PSD top 10 player. (Now this doesn't always mean one of the ten best players , I'm talking about one of the ten biggest names on the forum right now. (MBT had a great team, deserved to win. But Moses and Pippen were the two best players in the series, Durant was the biggest name.) Don't worry about twitter being full of kids so is PSD.

Ehhh, I don't necessarily agree with this, specifically in an ATRD. A regular RD for sure. Before this game started there were many who got a late pick in this who complained that they wouldn't win, which isn't true. We picked #19, here we are in the conference finals. MBT picked shortly after us, here he is in the conference finals while obtaining a #1 seed. You could say Durant is the biggest reason MBT won (I personally thought his team was better and that's why I ranked him where I did), but what about us? Our only 00's are Richard Hamilton and Rashard Lewis. Our best players isn't exactly likable by most throughout PSD and we just beat a Magic led team that many believe to be the best Magic led team ever in these games. Although I do understand the point you were trying to get across with your Durant comment. Last mock we made it priority #1 to acquire Kawhi Leonard because at the time he was the new flavor of the month. Just like Hibbert was at the end of the playoffs...


2) Avoid anyone PSD has decided they've hated. This is pretty easy because you'll know it. Iverson, Kobe (this is sort of warranted because Lakers fans overrated him forever), anyone that is an elite offensive player and terrible defensive player. Anyone that has lower efficiency and higher usage, even if they were a great PSD has labeled them a chucker forever.

This I agree with. Earlier in this ATRD I gave a rookie some advice about these games through PM. I basically said don't pick or trade for players like Adrian Dantley or Pistol Pete because no matter how good your team is, unless you draft them as a 6th man (not worth it where you would have to pick them), your team would automatically get worse in the eyes of other GM's. Same goes for regular RD's.


3) Finally always make a big trade at the end of the game. Like I said I knew my teams window. Rule three was the biggest factor in that. In our society there's always something newer, bigger, fresher etc... People want to see constant improvement. People who draft great teams but rarely make trades rarely win. That is a fact. People see a trade and see a team improve but they also disregard teams who stay put.

As someone that doesn't trade much (with the exception of last mock), I disagree to an extent. More often than not teams that don't trade lose because other teams trade and improve. As GM's, like myself, that stay put and don't improve, should.


---------------------------------------------------

I understand what you're saying and agree with it to an extent, just not everything. The biggest being Twitter. I have a hard time seeing Twitter as the answer.

D1JM
05-24-2014, 04:36 PM
i would also like to point out that ebbs team is full of players that have recently played in the nba or are still playing. in soccer all time redrafts, all time greats get thrown into the same sentence with some players that should have no business being compared to. you have ebbs who is trying to downplay how great wilt was and makes dirk sound like the ultimate goat :laugh2: you expect finger roll Ewing to not choke against a top 3 big in nba history?

Sadds The Gr8
05-24-2014, 05:36 PM
The vast difference in the vote demonstrated a clear difference in mind set. There was no precedent with twitter, sure they may like a player or whatever but those biases will always exist no matter where. "Knowledgeable" posters on PSD over and under rate players all the time based on how much they like them.

The Sheep argument from the last thread wasn't because I was losing it's because I was down like eight votes immediately. The arguments might not sway lucky but many people agree or disagree immediately with evidence out in front if them. Shammy had like 36 hours to pour gasoline on a fire before I could stop the burning. It's like it was a boxing match and I wasn't allowed to throw punches until the third round. (I'm not blaming Shammy I would've done the same thing. I was out of town, no foul play or anything.) The point is PSD also has it engrained in their minds that if a poster isn't defending or arguing for their team they have the lesser team. I've literally seen people say in a thread "since the other team was to lazy to send in a write up I'm voting for team B." I'd say being led by one side definitely warranted the sheep reference. On the other side as soon as I got in here and spammed the thread, kept fighting, kept posting stats the matchup swung my way.
I'm not saying you're wrong...Me and Eagles thought like this ever since playing PSD games. We always thought that vet GM's got benefit of the doubt and their teams got super overrated because those gm's made the team. It's just funny seeing you complain about it because you've always been the veteran/popular/most respected player since I've started playing...you've won with this system so I don't know why you'd complain about it now. I agree with Kaner that it seems like you're using this as an excuse not that you've finally lost though, even though I agree with the method of thinking.


How to win a PSD game:

1) Always have a PSD top 10 player. (Now this doesn't always mean one of the ten best players , I'm talking about one of the ten biggest names on the forum right now. (MBT had a great team, deserved to win. But Moses and Pippen were the two best players in the series, Durant was the biggest name.) Don't worry about twitter being full of kids so is PSD.
I agree with this point (except the Santa Monica shoulda won part). I also find this hypocritical from you though because the "kids"/generational thing was something that I saw as a flaw in the game when I was complaining about the Kiki Vanderweghe bashing and you basically said to me "no ****, PSD has a younger generation fan base and less knowledge of older players."

Now you're using my argument to defend PSK and Jamal.


2) Avoid anyone PSD has decided they've hated. This is pretty easy because you'll know it. Iverson, Kobe (this is sort of warranted because Lakers fans overrated him forever), anyone that is an elite offensive player and terrible defensive player. Anyone that has lower efficiency and higher usage, even if they were a great PSD has labeled them a chucker forever.
this i definitely agree with.


3) Finally always make a big trade at the end of the game. Like I said I knew my teams window. Rule three was the biggest factor in that. In our society there's always something newer, bigger, fresher etc... People want to see constant improvement. People who draft great teams but rarely make trades rarely win. That is a fact. People see a trade and see a team improve but they also disregard teams who stay put.
I agree with this as well. That is one of the reasons why I gutted my team for MJ. Everyone was all over my team last year, and I decided not to trade and eventually paid for it...


4) Politics: suck dick, rosterbate, and be online to defend your team.
That's why I haven't respected Matter and KTS's gm job of asking almost every damn veteran gm in the game for pick help and advice, and rosterbating the **** outta their teams after every pick in chatzies. KTS's team should be considered PSK/Ebbs/MBT/KOB's team also.

And I cant stand when GM's with limited experience or knowledge ask for trade help because they're scared of getting ripped off. If you're too puss to not make a trade, play with a co and ask him for help, or don't play the damn game. hate idiots that cockblock trades because of fear. In real life gm's don't ask for help...so don't copy and paste trade offers in the chatzy like a clown then judge off reactions from other gm's...I literally have 0 respect for people that do that in these games, unless the trade offer was laughable and you do it as a joke.


Notice how none of those four steps is build the best basketball team possible?

Honestly I don't care if I lose but it's become apparent over the last year that we need to make a change in these games. PSD has seen the combinations over and over. The pattern of GM behaviour mixed with the consensus mindset of PSD has made these games stale. My point isn't to whine about me losing, my point is this problem needs a remedy.

Like I said, these games are flawed, but out of every game I've been in I havent seen a team that DEFINITELY shouldn't of won, win. The problem is that there isn't nearly the amount of interest in voting from the public and we need a consistent crop of new GM's.

Shammyguy3
05-24-2014, 06:47 PM
we could talk about that stuff for days... I forget who it was that originally thought of this idea, but if SI lets me run Bulls' games this summer then I'll be employing said idea: having a panel of varied ideas and respected users that aren't playing in the game form a panel (ideally I would get 15 guys to partake in this panel). This panel wouldn't be involved with the game until the playoff matchups come up, in which those are the only 15 guys that vote on the matchup.


That gets rid of biased votes, gets rid of the brainwash mentality, and while i do miss the old days of getting 30+ votes for each matchup, since we're down to only 20 or so anyway give me quality over quantity. ((((((((this means for certain users that won't want to play in the Bulls' summer games, expect me to ask you to join this panel)))))))

Ebbs
05-24-2014, 07:05 PM
No good either.

Chronz, Hawkeye, etc... Are knowledgeable but they are set. They've formed opinions. And more votes not less votes is the best way.

Chronz
05-24-2014, 10:14 PM
He was recognized twice as an All-NBA defender in a possible six seasons.

Really bro, Six? RLY? I cant believe your actually counting the year he injured his knee and played in 12 regular season games. Not only that, but your math is wrong. Award originated in 1969, Wilt retired after 5 additional years, so its really more like he made 2 of a possible 4 and would have likely been named the DPOY had the award been around as well.

So remind me again, when did making an All-Defensive team become an attribute of someone who wasn't a defensive monster?
The fact that he made the team as a 36 year old in his final season after a career altering knee injury doesn't exactly aid your theory. Whats next, Shane Battier wasn't one of the true difference makers defensively because of his lowly accolades count? Really thought you had more to this, I actually think Wilt gets overrated defensively but you may change that opinion.



Wilt was who he wanted to be when he wanted to be.
Huh?



How was it a rarity in his day?
Combination of bad luck + politics

PatsSoxKnicks
05-25-2014, 01:29 AM
How to win a PSD game:

1) Always have a PSD top 10 player. (Now this doesn't always mean one of the ten best players , I'm talking about one of the ten biggest names on the forum right now. (MBT had a great team, deserved to win. But Moses and Pippen were the two best players in the series, Durant was the biggest name.) Don't worry about twitter being full of kids so is PSD.

I agree with this (and the example, which I guess is obvious). Also agree with Sadds about the whole "older all offense but no defense stars" get no credit while "newer defensive players with no o" get more credit. I also agree with the whole whoever gets there first argument can sway a lot of voters. But where I disagree is with twitter being any better, in fact I think it'd be worse. While there are biases on PSD, at least most of the voters know what they're talking about. But on twitter, you could literally get like 10 votes based on Dirk alone, or based on the Knicks players because you have a bigger fanbase. There'd be biases on twitter too- get bigger names from large fanbases and you probably win.

Additionally, I do agree with Lucky in that on twitter, they'll just say team A or B after like 1 minute of thinking about it- which isn't always enough, especially with the amount of time you put into it. I do think the arguments on PSD are what make the games fun and great BUT they sometimes do play too big a role in that it becomes a "who gets their first and gets the biggest haymaker" game. If the matchup is close and you have no write-up, you're pretty much screwed. Some voters will wait for arguments from both sides but I think others don't and just vote based on who they see give the first argument (or write-up). Anyways, I don't think twitter is the answer either because I don't think we have any clue whose voting which is an issue in it's own right (could be some troll who has a hard on for Wilt for example and votes because he likes Wilt and not because he thinks the team is better).



2) Avoid anyone PSD has decided they've hated. This is pretty easy because you'll know it. Iverson, Kobe (this is sort of warranted because Lakers fans overrated him forever), anyone that is an elite offensive player and terrible defensive player. Anyone that has lower efficiency and higher usage, even if they were a great PSD has labeled them a chucker forever.

This is true too, although sometimes I do think it's a bit warranted (for example, after watching some of the play/videos of the 50s last year, I'm not sure that I can take a Mikan seriously, unless we're just talking pure legacy and not based on play). But you are definitely right with the whole elite offensive player but terrible defensive player point. And I think there are some vet GMs who have this mindset too which causes a chain reaction influence. (for example, I still think Kiki could be a starter in this but he'll never be looked at as one because great defensive role player with limited o > offensive star with no d)



3) Finally always make a big trade at the end of the game. Like I said I knew my teams window. Rule three was the biggest factor in that. In our society there's always something newer, bigger, fresher etc... People want to see constant improvement. People who draft great teams but rarely make trades rarely win. That is a fact. People see a trade and see a team improve but they also disregard teams who stay put.

Rosh already made the points on this but last year both Jam and I did make the Finals without any real blockbuster trade while Rosh made one and lost. And this year, we actually made a big blockbuster but fell far short of where we were last year despite the big trade. And when KoB won, he also made no trades too.



4) Politics: suck dick, rosterbate, and be online to defend your team.

Notice how none of those four steps is build the best basketball team possible?


This is true too, although there's also a point where too much hurts your team. But given the amount of time put into the game, I don't mind the whole defending your team aspect. I just hate the fact that if you don't do it first, you're pretty much screwed. There are some votes who'll obviously wait to hear both sides but a lot of voters who don't and just vote based on "who gets to the argument first".

However, I agree with Rosh- still think the best teams almost always win. So in the end, I think most of the time, the result that should happen typically does happen. (Although along the way there are def some results that get influenced by one of the 4 points above)

The_Jamal
05-25-2014, 01:55 AM
You're never fully going to eliminate player bias. I mean, after Dirk won his title, dude was probably the most valuable player in mocks and normal redrafts. I mean, Rosh and I won a damn title with a broken down EG and old *** Tayshaun Prince with Dirk. MBT is getting through on KD being fresh in everyone's mind.

Chronz
05-25-2014, 06:11 AM
Despite arguing for Wilt, I went with Hammerfell, I just want some semblance of a logical rationale

mightybosstone
05-25-2014, 10:09 AM
The vast difference in the vote demonstrated a clear difference in mind set. There was no precedent with twitter, sure they may like a player or whatever but those biases will always exist no matter where. "Knowledgeable" posters on PSD over and under rate players all the time based on how much they like them.

The Sheep argument from the last thread wasn't because I was losing it's because I was down like eight votes immediately. The arguments might not sway lucky but many people agree or disagree immediately with evidence out in front if them. Shammy had like 36 hours to pour gasoline on a fire before I could stop the burning. It's like it was a boxing match and I wasn't allowed to throw punches until the third round. (I'm not blaming Shammy I would've done the same thing. I was out of town, no foul play or anything.) The point is PSD also has it engrained in their minds that if a poster isn't defending or arguing for their team they have the lesser team. I've literally seen people say in a thread "since the other team was to lazy to send in a write up I'm voting for team B." I'd say being led by one side definitely warranted the sheep reference. On the other side as soon as I got in here and spammed the thread, kept fighting, kept posting stats the matchup swung my way.

How to win a PSD game:

1) Always have a PSD top 10 player. (Now this doesn't always mean one of the ten best players , I'm talking about one of the ten biggest names on the forum right now. (MBT had a great team, deserved to win. But Moses and Pippen were the two best players in the series, Durant was the biggest name.) Don't worry about twitter being full of kids so is PSD.

2) Avoid anyone PSD has decided they've hated. This is pretty easy because you'll know it. Iverson, Kobe (this is sort of warranted because Lakers fans overrated him forever), anyone that is an elite offensive player and terrible defensive player. Anyone that has lower efficiency and higher usage, even if they were a great PSD has labeled them a chucker forever.

3) Finally always make a big trade at the end of the game. Like I said I knew my teams window. Rule three was the biggest factor in that. In our society there's always something newer, bigger, fresher etc... People want to see constant improvement. People who draft great teams but rarely make trades rarely win. That is a fact. People see a trade and see a team improve but they also disregard teams who stay put.

4) Politics: suck dick, rosterbate, and be online to defend your team.

Notice how none of those four steps is build the best basketball team possible?

Honestly I don't care if I lose but it's become apparent over the last year that we need to make a change in these games. PSD has seen the combinations over and over. The pattern of GM behaviour mixed with the consensus mindset of PSD has made these games stale. My point isn't to whine about me losing, my point is this problem needs a remedy.

Some of these I agree with and some of these I seriously disagree with, but the bigger question is why you took the time to write this out when your time could have been spent making a better case for your team. You're only down four votes and you're acting like you've lost already. There are several veterans (myself included) who might actually vote in this thing if we felt strongly one way or the other, but instead of actually arguing for your team's case, you're going off on rants about PSD. The funny thing is that you've used many of these variables in the past to your advantage to win PSD games, so why complain about them?

Greet
05-25-2014, 10:29 AM
You're never fully going to eliminate player bias. I mean, after Dirk won his title, dude was probably the most valuable player in mocks and normal redrafts. I mean, Rosh and I won a damn title with a broken down EG and old *** Tayshaun Prince with Dirk. MBT is getting through on KD being fresh in everyone's mind.

lol'd I remember that BS

Jamiecballer
05-25-2014, 10:57 AM
I say Winterfell quite handily. Much clearer offensive hierarchy and higher IQ. Wouldn't be close in my opinion.

Ebbs
05-25-2014, 01:49 PM
MBT my write up and my points are in the thread. There has been 0 debate from my opponents.

Chronz who was arguing with me voted for me.

If there was a debate going on I'd entertain it, there isn't.

Ebbs
05-25-2014, 02:20 PM
Winterfell 10 38.46%

Chronz, Greet, Jets012, Lucky., PatsSoxKnicks, roshan3ai, TheSportMessiah, The_Jamal, todu82, TylerSL

San Jose 13 50.00%

1-800-STFU, Bruno, Eagles4Lyfe, homestarunner93, Iggz53, killthesux, KnicksorBust, phlp_bj, Raidaz4Life, Raps08-09 Champ, Sadds The Gr8, Shammyguy3, xxplayerxx23

Turned out rather close.

Killerjug
05-25-2014, 02:36 PM
Sry I couldn't vote fellas dont get polls on my phone

Jamiecballer
05-25-2014, 03:17 PM
Ya me too. Winterfell for sure.

Greet
05-25-2014, 03:27 PM
Wow super surprised by this outcome. I thought Winterfell would easily win this. I think San Jose down low would get dominated on the defensive end because honestly who ever they decide to put Gasol on would most likely destroy him down low. No way a prime Gasol would be able to guard a prime Dirk or Ewing.

Winterfell's bench isn't really slouching either.

Ebbs
05-25-2014, 04:06 PM
Wow super surprised by this outcome. I thought Winterfell would easily win this. I think San Jose down low would get dominated on the defensive end because honestly who ever they decide to put Gasol on would most likely destroy him down low. No way a prime Gasol would be able to guard a prime Dirk or Ewing.

Winterfell's bench isn't really slouching either.

+10 appreciation points for Greet.

Matter.
05-25-2014, 05:15 PM
Sorry guys i couldnt debate, had a family wedding the past weekend.. sorry ebbs for not debating

D1JM
05-26-2014, 12:55 AM
i wonder if that little 10 year old that voted for your team on twitter still thinks that tony parker goes hard in the playoffs after today? i bet the kid doesn't even know who the **** dennis johnson is.

and debate? debate what? once people see the match up they make up their own conclusions. only a few actually read it. some see ebbs versus some newbies, let me pick ebbs. or let me pick winterfall because i am a game of thrones groupie.

Matter.
05-26-2014, 01:44 PM
True ^^