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View Full Version : NBA All-Time Redraft (1) Los Santos vs (4) Des Plaines



Matter.
05-23-2014, 12:10 PM
Hello Everyone. Welcome to the NBA All-time redraft playoffs. These will be a battle between two made up teams from our host of GMs in to see who reigns superiority over all of basketball. Please read the write-ups and vote for who you think would win in a 7 game series.

Los Santos has Homecourt Advantage

Los Santos
PG- Jason Kidd/Sam Cassell
SG- Ray Allen/World B. Free/Otis Birdsong
SF- Ron Artest/Paul Arizin/Antoine Walker
PF- Cliff Robinson/Charles Oakley/Antoine Walker
C- Kareem Abdul-Jabbar/Al Jefferson

vs

Des Plaines
PG: Allen Iverson | Nate "Tiny" Archibald | Kenny "The Jet" Smith
SG: Doug Christie | John Starks
SF: Peja Stojaković | Kyle Korver
PF: Tim Duncan | Dolph Schayes | Kurt Rambis
C: Dikembe Mutombo | Theo Ratliff

Neither team has sent in a write-up.

killthesux
05-23-2014, 12:15 PM
Good Luck to Phlp in this match up, My main point in this match up is that Des Plaines will likely have to rely on Iverson more as my whole team can play defense, and Iverson is known as a ball hog

shinjirod
05-23-2014, 12:21 PM
Wow, this one's very tough.

Lucky.
05-23-2014, 12:57 PM
I'm not the biggest fan of either team to be honest. Gotta go with Los Santos more than likely. I'm not going to not vote just because I could potentially be playing against one of these two teams, though. If I believe one team is better and match's up better, I'll vote for them :shrug:

PatsSoxKnicks
05-23-2014, 02:13 PM
Los Santos in 4. Still shocked Des Plaines is in the playoffs, never mind in the 2nd round.

KnicksorBust
05-23-2014, 02:24 PM
Los Santos in 4. Still shocked Des Plaines is in the playoffs, never mind in the 2nd round.

x2.

Ebbs
05-23-2014, 02:26 PM
Early Iverson shredded Kidd. Killed him, Kidd often guarded opposing two's because he didn't have the quickness to stay on ball.

Des Plaines is now getting underrated. They have a n icredibly tough matchup for Kidd, and they have a player in Mutumbo who can make Kareem work.

Not to mention Tim Duncan is yet to be mentioned in this thread..

Des Plaines also has the three best bench players. Starks/Christie will make it hard for Allen. Schayes is an offensive monster in a relief effort, and Tiny is one of the best back up points in this save cheeks.

killthesux
05-23-2014, 02:29 PM
Early Iverson shredded Kidd. Killed him, Kidd often guarded opposing two's because he didn't have the quickness to stay on ball.

Des Plaines is now getting underrated. They have a n icredibly tough matchup for Kidd, and they have a player in Mutumbo who can make Kareem work.

Not to mention Tim Duncan is yet to be mentioned in this thread..

Des Plaines also has the three best bench players. Starks/Christie will make it hard for Allen. Schayes is an offensive monster in a relief effort, and Tiny is one of the best back up points in this save cheeks.

Kareem would still destroy Dikembe, lol

xxplayerxx23
05-23-2014, 02:32 PM
Kareem destroys everyone, but if you plan on putting Kidd on iverson and cliff on Tim good luck stoping them.

KnicksorBust
05-23-2014, 02:34 PM
Cliff-Oakley is perfectly fine guarding Duncan. And Artest would smother Peja. That's why Los Santos wins so easily.

Ebbs
05-23-2014, 02:37 PM
Kareem would still destroy Dikembe, lol

I believe Iverson works Kidd harder than anyone else works anyone else in this matchup.

Iverson has his flaws but this is where he would excel. Excellent post defense and an elite player like Duncan to take some pressure off. Now you give Iverson a siginifcantly slower defender and put him in the playoffs when he was young and hungry bead things will happen.

Duncan vs. Cliff is also more of a mismatch than Kareem-Dikembe. If you put Kareem on Duncan on defense than that put's a lot more effort on Kareem where Duncan gets to coast a bit on D.

I think Des Plaines wins in five honestly.

If Kidd drew Magic, Big O, Payton, etc. . . great great matchup for him. But you don't want him chasing one of the fastest players all time with the ball.

killthesux
05-23-2014, 02:46 PM
I believe Iverson works Kidd harder than anyone else works anyone else in this matchup.

Iverson has his flaws but this is where he would excel. Excellent post defense and an elite player like Duncan to take some pressure off. Now you give Iverson a siginifcantly slower defender and put him in the playoffs when he was young and hungry bead things will happen.

Duncan vs. Cliff is also more of a mismatch than Kareem-Dikembe. If you put Kareem on Duncan on defense than that put's a lot more effort on Kareem where Duncan gets to coast a bit on D.

I think Des Plaines wins in five honestly.

If Kidd drew Magic, Big O, Payton, etc. . . great great matchup for him. But you don't want him chasing one of the fastest players all time with the ball.

Iverson wont be able to do it all by himself, He rarely passes the ball, and like KoB said Cliff and Oakley are more than capable of defending duncan, they wont be able to shut him down, but Duncan wont be able to destroy Cliff offensively, BTW can Duncan guard Robinson on the other end?

Eagles4Lyfe
05-23-2014, 02:48 PM
This has to b the best iverson built team I've seen in an all time, the best compliments but god damn that los santos team is beyond sexyyy.
That starting five is pretty well built.

Kaner
05-23-2014, 04:01 PM
I believe Iverson works Kidd harder than anyone else works anyone else in this matchup.

Iverson has his flaws but this is where he would excel. Excellent post defense and an elite player like Duncan to take some pressure off. Now you give Iverson a siginifcantly slower defender and put him in the playoffs when he was young and hungry bead things will happen.

Duncan vs. Cliff is also more of a mismatch than Kareem-Dikembe. If you put Kareem on Duncan on defense than that put's a lot more effort on Kareem where Duncan gets to coast a bit on D.

I think Des Plaines wins in five honestly.

If Kidd drew Magic, Big O, Payton, etc. . . great great matchup for him. But you don't want him chasing one of the fastest players all time with the ball.

so what. Let Iverson go man mode the guy will always get his 30 but it'll be on 30 shots.

Sadds The Gr8
05-23-2014, 04:15 PM
Los Santos in 6. Don't think they're that good but are really benefitting from a bad conference. The horrible conference split really f'd up the results of this game.

phlp_bj
05-23-2014, 05:25 PM
Iverson wont be able to do it all by himself, He rarely passes the ball, and like KoB said Cliff and Oakley are more than capable of defending duncan, they wont be able to shut him down, but Duncan wont be able to destroy Cliff offensively, BTW can Duncan guard Robinson on the other end?

I don't see why you make it seem as if Cliff is so good. Career 16.6ppg scorer. Tim Duncan has been on an all defense team a whopping 14 times. He will shut down Cliff for sure. I think the better question is; can Cliff stop Duncan? Which I doubt he can. Duncan is 6'11 and 248 lbs. Cliff weighs 225lbs. Duncan is one of the few players who can handle himself in the post, so I don't see how Cliff can stop Duncan either. Here is their player comparison: http://bkref.com/tiny/h8nDt

You also claim that Artest will shut down Peja, which he very well might. But you're severly underestimating Christie's defense on Ray. Christie was a 4 time all defense, and has been top 5 in steals for 7 years straight. He may not be able to shut down Ray entirely, but he sure as hell will give him trouble and disrupt his game. So where would your offense come from then? Solely Kareem? Duncan will go off on Cliff more so than Kareem going off on Dikembe. And as others mentioned, I could care less if Iverson shoots all day. The guy can score. Let's see Kidd shut down Iverson entirely and not get into foul trouble. In their primes, if I had to choose one player to go out and win a series for me and carry my team, that would be Iverson without a doubt.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJG2DB4McXI

Shammyguy3
05-23-2014, 05:26 PM
leaning Los Santos, but i like this matchup for Des Plaines more than their 1st round matchup

Killerjug
05-23-2014, 05:26 PM
I disagree. Not saying the other conference from top to bottom wasn't better because it was, but I think the top teams in this conference could hang with the top teams from the other conference

killthesux
05-23-2014, 05:43 PM
I don't see why you make it seem as if Cliff is so good. Career 16.6ppg scorer. Tim Duncan has been on an all defense team a whopping 14 times. He will shut down Cliff for sure. I think the better question is; can Cliff stop Duncan? Which I doubt he can. Duncan is 6'11 and 248 lbs. Cliff weighs 225lbs. Duncan is one of the few players who can handle himself in the post, so I don't see how Cliff can stop Duncan either. Here is their player comparison: http://bkref.com/tiny/h8nDt

You also claim that Artest will shut down Peja, which he very well might. But you're severly underestimating Christie's defense on Ray. Christie was a 4 time all defense, and has been top 5 in steals for 7 years straight. He may not be able to shut down Ray entirely, but he sure as hell will give him trouble and disrupt his game. So where would your offense come from then? Solely Kareem? Duncan will go off on Cliff more so than Kareem going off on Dikembe. And as others mentioned, I could care less if Iverson shoots all day. The guy can score. Let's see Kidd shut down Iverson entirely and not get into foul trouble. In their primes, if I had to choose one player to go out and win a series for me and carry my team, that would be Iverson without a doubt.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJG2DB4McXI

I never said Robinson would shut down Duncan, I said he can slow him down. Did you forget that Robinson is platooning with Oakley who is even better defensively than Robinson is? Oakley im sure can handle Duncan defensively. Iverson Turned the ball over nearly 3.6 times per game so that should be another thing that should be counted against him. And you act like Artest wont be able to shut down Peja, Artest has numerous accolades defensively also. Also Peja is not a very good defender either

phlp_bj
05-23-2014, 06:10 PM
I never said Robinson would shut down Duncan, I said he can slow him down. Did you forget that Robinson is platooning with Oakley who is even better defensively than Robinson is? Oakley im sure can handle Duncan defensively. Iverson Turned the ball over nearly 3.6 times per game so that should be another thing that should be counted against him. And you act like Artest wont be able to shut down Peja, Artest has numerous accolades defensively also. Also Peja is not a very good defender either

Platooning and starting is two completely different things though. It's not like you can have Cliff's offense and Oakley's defense out on the court at the same time against Duncan. Oakley may be better defensively than Cliff, but that doesn't change the fact that you started Cliff against Duncan, so yes, Duncan will go off on Cliff. Duncan still has 20+ lbs on Oakley as well. Placing Oakley on the floor severely limits any kind of offense from your PF position, so there goes that as well.

I think you misunderstood my words. I agree, Artest will definitely shut down or definitely come close to that against Peja. I was just saying if Artest can shut down Peja, Christie can sure as hell slow down Ray in the same sense too. Artest and Christie are both very good one on one defenders, and they are both going up agaianst offensive threats, so they will both be doing well in this series.

Ebbs
05-23-2014, 06:24 PM
so what. Let Iverson go man mode the guy will always get his 30 but it'll be on 30 shots.

That's incredibly false. I suggest you look at some box scores.


leaning Los Santos, but i like this matchup for Des Plaines more than their 1st round matchup

This is a golden matchup for Des Plaines.

phlp_bj
05-23-2014, 06:40 PM
In terms of their primes, I believe Iverson had the better prime.

Kidd had the higher AST% (low 40's), but Iverson was also very good in this department (upper 20's to mid 30's). Couple that with his usage rate and you see that Iverson wasn't just a volume scorer, but also a guy who was good at setting up his teammates. He often doesn't get enough credit for that. Both players were high turnover guys in their primes.

Kidd was obviously the better defender at basically every point of their respective careers, but Iverson picked his spots to wreak havoc on that end of the court in the passing lanes as well. The other thing that jumps out about their stats is that Kidd actually shot worse from the field than did Iverson despite less volume.

As far as team success goes, Kidd was blessed with some pretty good teams in Phoenix that just happened to come up against better teams in the first round of the playoffs. The one playoff series that his Suns did win early in his career, Kidd missed the first three games. Then once Kidd got to the weaker Eastern Conference, his teams went to two straight Finals and then won 2 more playoff series over the following 4 years. He adjusted his game markedly late in his career in Dallas, and though they were inconsistent for his first three years (winning one total playoff series), he did win an NBA title as a role player that season.

Iverson had some rough looking teams his first two seasons and then pulled off a couple ugly series wins in his third and fourth seasons (albeit in the weaker conference) before making the Finals in his 5th year. He then shared a conference with Kidd for 6 of the next 7 years, and they never actually faced each other in the playoffs.

So to say that his turnovers were high or that he shot too many shots is a bit of an overstatement. Iverson was forced to shoot that much considering the help that was around him. Kidd on the other hand may seem like the better player on paper with better percentages because he had a great supporting cast. If you were to place Kidd on the Sixers and Iverson on the Suns, I will bet you anything that Kidd wouldn't be able to lead the Sixers to the Finals or do half of what Iverson did for that team.

With that said, Iverson has a supporting cast on this team, so he wouldn't be forced to shoot as much as he once used to. Duncan can also carry the offense load in this series.

Kaner
05-23-2014, 06:54 PM
That's incredibly false. I suggest you look at some box scores.



This is a golden matchup for Des Plaines.

I was exaggerating on the fact that he has for most of his career been a extremely high volume on extremely low effiency scorer.

killthesux
05-23-2014, 07:47 PM
I will make my argument a bit later

Kaner
05-24-2014, 02:13 AM
1 thing that should be mentioned and hasn't been is Iverson's effiency when he's had help or another legitimate scoring option an example being his first year in Denver.

On the tail end of his prime with Carmelo he managed to average 27ppg on 57% ts on a career low usage at that point of 26%. Also notable is in his prime alongside Chris Webber he managed to average 33ppg on 54% ts. The point is that when Iverson has had legitimate second options we've seen him willing to improve his shot selection when his teammates are good enough for him to trust someone other than himself. Obviously thats the case hear so if Des-Plaines gets an Iverson who is willing to trust his teammates and be smart with the ball then they could(should?) win.

phlp_bj
05-24-2014, 11:39 AM
moreee votesss

Kaner
05-24-2014, 12:54 PM
Los Santos in 4. Still shocked Des Plaines is in the playoffs, never mind in the 2nd round.

Why? Iverson is a huge question mark on how he's received and how he works with his teammates but they have a very well balanced team on both sides and if theirs a team Iverson works well with it's this one.

xxplayerxx23
05-24-2014, 06:32 PM
Ray is a good shooter so is cliff but how will they react when Kidd and artest are forced to shoot from the outside ? I just don't see Kidd stoping Iverson, the iverson can't work with teammates argument him and Duncan would work together fine. Tim is so dominate in everything he can really take care of cliff or Oakley. I really like the matchup for them

PatsSoxKnicks
05-25-2014, 01:51 AM
Why? Iverson is a huge question mark on how he's received and how he works with his teammates but they have a very well balanced team on both sides and if theirs a team Iverson works well with it's this one.

Because Iverson is going to be forced to chuck up a lot of shots again, even with Timmy there. Why you ask? Because Mutumbo is terrible offensively and Christie is one of the worst offensive starters in this too. Heck, Christie isn't even that great of a 3 point shooter so he's less of a 3 and D player and more of a D only player. So Des Plaines has 2 complete duds on offense in Christie and Mutumbo. And I think those lack of offensive options will cause the more chucker version of AI to show up because he kinda has to with the lack of offense at those 2 positions.

Also, Des Plaines perimeter defense is also very meh. I mean we're essentially talking about Christie as the shut down defender (which he isn't, and in an all-time sense, isn't even close). AI is ok but he gets overrated defensively because of his steals and more importantly, he's still the PG. And the SF- Peja- is not good defensively at all. So the perimeter defense on Des Plaines isn't very good either.

Literally, the only thing they have going for them is an excellent post defense of Duncan Mutumbo. The rest? Spacing wise- they have Peja but not much else in the starting lineup
Perimeter d wise- it's Christie, whose not great enough in an all-time setting to be the stopper and yet offer almost no offense
Scoring wise- it's heavily reliant on AI, Duncan and Peja. Tiny is also a clone of AI, why would you do that when you already have AI? Additionally, outside of Tiny on the bench, the scoring off the bench is very weak too. In fact the combination of SG scoring is flat out atrocious and I'm a big Starks fan. And Korver is utterly useless on the roster since he's backing up Peja.
Bench- A pretty terrible bench too.

There's just so many holes on this roster. And from a matchup standpoint, because Mutumbo offers almost nothing offensively (nobody is worried about him beating you offensively), Los Santos can put Kareem on Duncan and double team him with Cliff. Artest on Peja would pretty much shut him down. And then you have a great defender in Kidd on AI making it difficult for AI and essentially Des Plaines offense is completely done. Not only that but you can double off Christie too because again, he's not that great a 3 point shooter. Between Artest's D, Kidd's D + help of Ray Allen and KAJ's D + help from Cliff, how the hell is Des Plaines scoring more than 70 points a game in this series?

The thing is- if Des Plaines had a better bench, I could buy the more defensive oriented starting lineup (well post oriented defensive lineup because the perimeter defense is meh). But the bench is awful too. Korver is a bum. Starks doesn't offer enough offense when he's backing up Christie. Tiny is a good bench piece but he's the same player as AI so you can't really play them together can you? Dolph Schayes played in the 50s which means he played in an era where basketball looked like this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkD4GRGdCZI). Ratliff offers nothing offensively either. Rambis offers literally nothing on offense either.

The only scorer on that bench is Tiny and I'm not sure that you really want to be playing him and AI together which means that Des Plaines is going to have a LOT of trouble scoring.

Kaner
05-25-2014, 03:33 AM
Because Iverson is going to be forced to chuck up a lot of shots again, even with Timmy there. Why you ask? Because Mutumbo is terrible offensively and Christie is one of the worst offensive starters in this too. Heck, Christie isn't even that great of a 3 point shooter so he's less of a 3 and D player and more of a D only player. So Des Plaines has 2 complete duds on offense in Christie and Mutumbo. And I think those lack of offensive options will cause the more chucker version of AI to show up because he kinda has to with the lack of offense at those 2 positions.

Disagree with you here, if Iverson can tone it down beside a 24 year old Carmelo he can do it alongside Tim Duncan and Peja. Christie isn't a great 3-D player but he's a great D and solid 3 point shooter so he should be able to at least keep his man on him.


Also, Des Plaines perimeter defense is also very meh. I mean we're essentially talking about Christie as the shut down defender (which he isn't, and in an all-time sense, isn't even close). AI is ok but he gets overrated defensively because of his steals and more importantly, he's still the PG. And the SF- Peja- is not good defensively at all. So the perimeter defense on Des Plaines isn't very good either.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=stojape01&p2=artesro01

This is the head2head matchup when Peja and Artest have matched up against each other. Your being a huge hypocrite giving Des Plaines so much grief starting Christie when Artest's prime is on a very similiar volume and effiecency to Doug's. For that matter Jason Kidd's another guy on Los Santos where his career ts% of 50% makes him a liability on offense. Unless they're getting the older and slower Jason Kidd who is slightly better from 3 and more effiecent on offense who Iverson will just tears up that much more.




Literally, the only thing they have going for them is an excellent post defense of Duncan Mutumbo. The rest? Spacing wise- they have Peja but not much else in the starting lineup
Perimeter d wise- it's Christie, whose not great enough in an all-time setting to be the stopper and yet offer almost no offense
Scoring wise- it's heavily reliant on AI, Duncan and Peja. Tiny is also a clone of AI, why would you do that when you already have AI? Additionally, outside of Tiny on the bench, the scoring off the bench is very weak too. In fact the combination of SG scoring is flat out atrocious and I'm a big Starks fan. And Korver is utterly useless on the roster since he's backing up Peja.
Bench- A pretty terrible bench too.

Both teams spacing is extremely similiar to the point of it being almost a wash. Iverson, Kidd, Christie, and Metta World Peace are all very close in terms of career 3pt% and obviously Peja and Allen are money from downtown. So I don't think it's fair to count that against Des Plaines and not Los Santos

You gloss over the post defense but really that is an ungodly duo in the paint, and Mutombo has all the size and length to give Kareem fits. Also Christie isn't an all-time great wing defender but he was selected to 4 defensive teams same as Artest. That's plenty considering how impossibly good that front court defense is and as you can see above Artest on Peja isn't exactly the defensive mismatch you want to make it out to be.

As for his bench I think it's obvious that it is intended to be an inferior version of his starting lineup with each of them being extremely similiar style of play to the starters (his starters will probably play big minutes?)



There's just so many holes on this roster. And from a matchup standpoint, because Mutumbo offers almost nothing offensively (nobody is worried about him beating you offensively), Los Santos can put Kareem on Duncan and double team him with Cliff. Artest on Peja would pretty much shut him down. And then you have a great defender in Kidd on AI making it difficult for AI and essentially Des Plaines offense is completely done. Not only that but you can double off Christie too because again, he's not that great a 3 point shooter. Between Artest's D, Kidd's D + help of Ray Allen and KAJ's D + help from Cliff, how the hell is Des Plaines scoring more than 70 points a game in this series?

Literally everything your saying about Des Plaines can be reversed onto Los Santos. If Christie is a weak 3pt shooter then so is Artest and so is Kidd because in terms of career 3pt% Christie is higher then both of them. You can see who wins that Peja vs Artest matchup in the h2h above but no way does Artest shutdown Peja completely. Mutombo isn't a huge help offensively but if nothing else he'll finish around the rim if left open. AI is NOT being held back by Kidd. He consistently tore apart Kidd when they met up Kidd's too slow to stay infront of AI especially if this is the older more effiecent Kidd. Defensively the only real offensive threats on Los Santos happen to matchup terribly against Des Plaines with Mutombo on Kareem and Christie on Allen. Because after that Cliff Robinson is Los Santos' best 3rd option who happens to be getting guarded by Tim Duncan.


I think your not giving Des Plaines enough credit and Los Santos too much. This is a closer matchup the more I look at it.