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View Full Version : Does Melo get a worse rep than what he actually deserves?



arlubas
05-23-2014, 07:15 AM
His numbers are those of a superstar, the main knock on him has always been that he's a ballhog that can't help a team be successful through his playing style. Yet a lot of people choose to forget that he went to the WCFs with Denver in 2009 where they lost 4-2 to the eventual champs Lakers. So it's not that a team can't be a contender with him but rather that he didn't have a whole lot of good teams surrounding him since then. In retrospect that WCF trip has made him more successful (on a team basis) than say CP3 for example, who doesn't get nearly as criticized because his playing style is more of a distributor whereas Melo only scores. Which is exactly what a scorer should do that is.

I'm not trying to make him out as an equal to a Lebron or KD, not at all. Yet I do feel like the players that are pure scorers get burned way more easily and commonly because of their playing style, just like the majority would've discounted what AI had done throughout his career if he hadn't taken that trip to the finals. Just like they didn't give credit to Ray Allen (at least as one of the best of his generation) before he actually won a ring with Boston.

/rant

JasonJohnHorn
05-23-2014, 07:54 AM
It's the fact that he can't facilitate for others, and has an unimpressive FG% that hurts him.

Almost anybody in the league can score 25 points a game if you give them as many shots as Melo, and MANY would score more than him.

Is he a great player? YES! Is he a franchise player? No. But he makes franchise player money, so when that is the case, expectations are high.


Ask yourself this.. do you think the Lakers would have won more with Melo instead of James Worthy? There is of course no way to answer that question, and I don't don't that the Lakers would have won with him, but I think they were better with Worthy than the would have been with Melo.


I look at the SFs from the 80s: Alex English near the top of my list for the era (outside of Dr. J and Larry Bird obviously). Outside of English there was Adrian Dantley and Mar Aguirre. These guys shot INSANELY high percentages compared to Melo, and they could rebound as well, and in the case of English, could also pass the ball. These guys, in my book, are better than Melo. The thing is, they don't even hardly get mentioned today because Dr J, Bird and Nique were the more popular players at that position. And that's not to mention Benard King.

So, I mean, if Melo can't even put up percentages like English, Dantley and Aguire, and the best part of his game is his scoring, then what does that say about the level of his game when these players, who were second tier SFs in their day, easily outdo him?

He's great, he's just not THAT great, and in a city like NY, you NEED to be THAT great.

PhillyFaninLA
05-23-2014, 08:06 AM
He is all flash and no substance.

He hits a ton of last second shots but is the reason those shots need to be hit in the first place.

You cannot win a title (unless the team is as stacked as the Gold Medal team he was on) with him. Guys like him are shows and stat guys, the also can take a team to the brink but no further. As a Sixers fan I hope he stays on the Knicks or goes to the Lakers or Celtics.

GiantsSwaGG
05-23-2014, 08:07 AM
Why do ppl consider him a superstar? :facepalm:

lamzoka
05-23-2014, 08:50 AM
Melo is a hell of a scorer, a good rebounder and a better defender than we give him credit for. Does he makes his teammates better? Absolutely not, but you can make the same argument for Kobe. (btw not comparing melo and kobe)

every superstar in this league have more help than him. lebron, wade and bosh, CP3 and blake griffin, KD, WB, Ibaka. Harden and Dwight and the list goes on. Melo's best side kick in his career was a washed up, one foot out the league Iverson.

He's good, he just needs help. No one can do it by themselves

KnicksorBust
05-23-2014, 08:55 AM
His numbers are those of a superstar, the main knock on him has always been that he's a ballhog that can't help a team be successful through his playing style. Yet a lot of people choose to forget that he went to the WCFs with Denver in 2009 where they lost 4-2 to the eventual champs Lakers. So it's not that a team can't be a contender with him but rather that he didn't have a whole lot of good teams surrounding him since then. In retrospect that WCF trip has made him more successful (on a team basis) than say CP3 for example, who doesn't get nearly as criticized because his playing style is more of a distributor whereas Melo only scores. Which is exactly what a scorer should do that is.

I'm not trying to make him out as an equal to a Lebron or KD, not at all. Yet I do feel like the players that are pure scorers get burned way more easily and commonly because of their playing style, just like the majority would've discounted what AI had done throughout his career if he hadn't taken that trip to the finals. Just like they didn't give credit to Ray Allen (at least as one of the best of his generation) before he actually won a ring with Boston.

/rant

It all depends on your perspective. He came into the league with a lot of hype after winning the NCAA tournament and was picked highly in a loaded draft. His scoring immediately catapulted him into the conversation and it created a scenario were more people probably overrate him and that's why, in my opinion, you now have a situation where people tend to underrate him. When you hear people saying "best pure scorer in the league," "franchise max salary player," then you are inevitably are going to have backlash because the numbers/eye contest don't support those claims. He's clearly a notch below the LeBron/KD level. Although, aren't they all?

The playoffs argument is valid but again, how many times has Carmelo gone into a series with the clearly better team and lost? He gets knocked out by the Spurs, the Lakers, the Lakers again. Guys like Andre Miller, Marcus Camby, K-Mart, JR Smith are solid but none of them jump off the page. The one year he got someone who could really help him, Chauncey Billups, they went on a run. During that playoffs he averaged 27ppg/6rpg/4apg on a PER of 24.3 (!) and a TS% of 56%. The problem? He went against a prime Kobe/Gasol/Odom trio with a red-hot Trevor Ariza and a young Bynum contributing. The next year they did fall short against the Jazz.

Overall, it's a mixed bag. To me if he had that other guy his career would have gone differently. Maybe he's just dressed as batman when he's better as robin. Either way he's still a top 15 player and having one of those is pretty damn important.

KnicksorBust
05-23-2014, 09:02 AM
It's the fact that he can't facilitate for others, and has an unimpressive FG% that hurts him.

Almost anybody in the league can score 25 points a game if you give them as many shots as Melo, and MANY would score more than him.

Is he a great player? YES! Is he a franchise player? No. But he makes franchise player money, so when that is the case, expectations are high.


Ask yourself this.. do you think the Lakers would have won more with Melo instead of James Worthy? There is of course no way to answer that question, and I don't don't that the Lakers would have won with him, but I think they were better with Worthy than the would have been with Melo.


I look at the SFs from the 80s: Alex English near the top of my list for the era (outside of Dr. J and Larry Bird obviously). Outside of English there was Adrian Dantley and Mar Aguirre. These guys shot INSANELY high percentages compared to Melo, and they could rebound as well, and in the case of English, could also pass the ball. These guys, in my book, are better than Melo. The thing is, they don't even hardly get mentioned today because Dr J, Bird and Nique were the more popular players at that position. And that's not to mention Benard King.

So, I mean, if Melo can't even put up percentages like English, Dantley and Aguire, and the best part of his game is his scoring, then what does that say about the level of his game when these players, who were second tier SFs in their day, easily outdo him?

He's great, he's just not THAT great, and in a city like NY, you NEED to be THAT great.

I don't think that quote is true at all. Just look at what happened to Trevor Ariza when he tried to be a #1 option after leaving LA.

In regards to your Alex English comments, you are unfairly comparing FG percentages of players that play different styles. Carmelo Anthony is a perimeter threat and thus takes lower percentage shots. However, some of those lower percentage shots are 3pt shots and are more valuable. English didn't take 3's. That skews his FG% toward a higher number but it doesn't prove he's a more efficient scorer.

In addition, Carmelo Anthony gets to the free throw line more than Alex English. That's valuable on multiple levels. Free throws are about as high percentage as you can AND it puts the other team in foul trouble. Carmelo Anthony has averaged 7.7 FTA per game to English's 4.3 FTA. That is a significant difference. This is why comparing just FG% is flawed.

If you use TS%, which factors in 3pt shots and FTs, then the comparison is more fair.

Carmelo Anthony career TS% - 54.7%
Alex English career TS% - 55.0%

So next time be more careful when you make these verbose claims of "INSANELY HIGH" percentages and players who "easily outdo" Melo.

KnicksorBust
05-23-2014, 09:04 AM
He is all flash and no substance.

He hits a ton of last second shots but is the reason those shots need to be hit in the first place.

You cannot win a title (unless the team is as stacked as the Gold Medal team he was on) with him. Guys like him are shows and stat guys, the also can take a team to the brink but no further. As a Sixers fan I hope he stays on the Knicks or goes to the Lakers or Celtics.

Just let me know which Nuggets or Knicks team you think should have won a title but Melo prevented it. :)

nycericanguy
05-23-2014, 09:12 AM
It's the fact that he can't facilitate for others, and has an unimpressive FG% that hurts him.

Almost anybody in the league can score 25 points a game if you give them as many shots as Melo, and MANY would score more than him.

Is he a great player? YES! Is he a franchise player? No. But he makes franchise player money, so when that is the case, expectations are high.


Ask yourself this.. do you think the Lakers would have won more with Melo instead of James Worthy? There is of course no way to answer that question, and I don't don't that the Lakers would have won with him, but I think they were better with Worthy than the would have been with Melo.


I look at the SFs from the 80s: Alex English near the top of my list for the era (outside of Dr. J and Larry Bird obviously). Outside of English there was Adrian Dantley and Mar Aguirre. These guys shot INSANELY high percentages compared to Melo, and they could rebound as well, and in the case of English, could also pass the ball. These guys, in my book, are better than Melo. The thing is, they don't even hardly get mentioned today because Dr J, Bird and Nique were the more popular players at that position. And that's not to mention Benard King.

So, I mean, if Melo can't even put up percentages like English, Dantley and Aguire, and the best part of his game is his scoring, then what does that say about the level of his game when these players, who were second tier SFs in their day, easily outdo him?

He's great, he's just not THAT great, and in a city like NY, you NEED to be THAT great.

that's quite ridiculous. There are only a handful of players that can score 25-27ppg like Melo. If "almost anybody" could do it, Melo and other lesser scorer wouldn't get max deals.

How many guys can score 28ppg, shoot 45%, 40% from 3, 80% at the line? Grab 8 rebounds, and dish 3 assists... all while turning it over only 2x per game in 38mpg?

He needs help just like anyone else, and yea his FG% has never been elite, but he's also never had the benefit of player with another star which we all know will boost your efficiency.

As for your 2nd bolded, you do realize those guys didn't shoot hardly any 3's right? It's a different game now... everyone shoots a lot of 3's and obviously that will lower your overall FG%

D-Leethal
05-23-2014, 09:37 AM
It's the fact that he can't facilitate for others, and has an unimpressive FG% that hurts him.

Almost anybody in the league can score 25 points a game if you give them as many shots as Melo, and MANY would score more than him.

Is he a great player? YES! Is he a franchise player? No. But he makes franchise player money, so when that is the case, expectations are high.


Ask yourself this.. do you think the Lakers would have won more with Melo instead of James Worthy? There is of course no way to answer that question, and I don't don't that the Lakers would have won with him, but I think they were better with Worthy than the would have been with Melo.


I look at the SFs from the 80s: Alex English near the top of my list for the era (outside of Dr. J and Larry Bird obviously). Outside of English there was Adrian Dantley and Mar Aguirre. These guys shot INSANELY high percentages compared to Melo, and they could rebound as well, and in the case of English, could also pass the ball. These guys, in my book, are better than Melo. The thing is, they don't even hardly get mentioned today because Dr J, Bird and Nique were the more popular players at that position. And that's not to mention Benard King.

So, I mean, if Melo can't even put up percentages like English, Dantley and Aguire, and the best part of his game is his scoring, then what does that say about the level of his game when these players, who were second tier SFs in their day, easily outdo him?

He's great, he's just not THAT great, and in a city like NY, you NEED to be THAT great.

I skipped the rest, but the bold is simply not true and is one of the biggest nonsense misconceptions on this forum. Not many players in this league are capable of getting the variety of shots it takes to score 30ppg. You can't simply say a guy who scores 15ppg at 50% would drop 30ppg on high efficiency if you up his shot totals. A huge chunk of those shots will end up being contested in a way where a catch and shoot guy or a "play off the ball" guy wouldn't be able to get a shot off at all let alone make one. Thats the spreadsheet mentality thats rampant on this forum but nonsensical in reality. Melo has the utmost respect of his peers, and everyone who matters in the NBA. He is just a favorite punching bag for fans who have elementary knowledge of the game and love pointing fingers, placing blame and finding scapegoats. He has shown you can win with him as your #1 guy, he just needs the proper cast around him that meshes with his skillset, no different than any other player in this league.

Oh, and get him better weapons, his efficiency goes up, not that hard to pull up basketball reference and see how that works for pretty much every player in the history of the game.

JasonJohnHorn
05-23-2014, 09:47 AM
I don't think that quote is true at all. Just look at what happened to Trevor Ariza when he tried to be a #1 option after leaving LA.

In regards to your Alex English comments, you are unfairly comparing FG percentages of players that play different styles. Carmelo Anthony is a perimeter threat and thus takes lower percentage shots. However, some of those lower percentage shots are 3pt shots and are more valuable. English didn't take 3's. That skews his FG% toward a higher number but it doesn't prove he's a more efficient scorer.

In addition, Carmelo Anthony gets to the free throw line more than Alex English. That's valuable on multiple levels. Free throws are about as high percentage as you can AND it puts the other team in foul trouble. Carmelo Anthony has averaged 7.7 FTA per game to English's 4.3 FTA. That is a significant difference. This is why comparing just FG% is flawed.

If you use TS%, which factors in 3pt shots and FTs, then the comparison is more fair.

Carmelo Anthony career TS% - 54.7%
Alex English career TS% - 55.0%

So next time be more careful when you make these verbose claims of "INSANELY HIGH" percentages and players who "easily outdo" Melo.


Good points, but I mentioned several players, and English's passing game is what makes English better in my estimation.

That said, English to a lot of long range jumpers and mid-range jumpers, so it's not like his shots were all at the basket of something.

As TS% isn't the only percentage to look at. Look a 2pt%. English is well over .500 there, and Melo is well under it (.476 on his career).

English is also the better FT shoot (.832 to .811: though both are great there).

English got 1.2 points per shot, and Melo gets.... 1.2!

So, yeah, his three pointers make up for his inferior shooting inside the arc, and he gets more fouls, but being a superstar, he gets superstar treatment.

Look at the turnovers and assists though. English is scoring as much on as many shots and then hands out 4.1 assists per36 on his career to Melo's 3.0, but gets only 2.7 turnovers to Melo's 2.9. A MUCH better assist-to-turnover ratio.

You make a good argument with the TS%, but all your argument says is that, YES, English WAS a better shooter, Melo just got more FT shots.

The difference in 2pt% is INSANELY high. If is very significant. Over .030 difference. That is a lot. If I'm looking for a scorer, I'll take the one who shooting >500 over the one who shoot .475 ever time, unless that .475 is strictly beyond the arc.


As to guys being able to score 25 points a game... the players in this league are amazing athletes. Many of them could score 25 points a game IF you give them as many shots as Melo (that's almost 20 a game on his career). You mentioned Ariza and said he couldn't do it, but he ony got 13 shots a game in his highest season, and he wasn't the first option, so I have NO clue what you are talking about, but since YOU brought up Ariza, and the importance of 3pt shooting and fouls (which is essentially an argument for points-per-shot), it is important to not that Ariza score 1.29 points per shot this season, to Melo 1.28 on his career, so...

JasonJohnHorn
05-23-2014, 09:51 AM
that's quite ridiculous. There are only a handful of players that can score 25-27ppg like Melo. If "almost anybody" could do it, Melo and other lesser scorer wouldn't get max deals.

How many guys can score 28ppg, shoot 45%, 40% from 3, 80% at the line? Grab 8 rebounds, and dish 3 assists... all while turning it over only 2x per game in 38mpg?

He needs help just like anyone else, and yea his FG% has never been elite, but he's also never had the benefit of player with another star which we all know will boost your efficiency.

As for your 2nd bolded, you do realize those guys didn't shoot hardly any 3's right? It's a different game now... everyone shoots a lot of 3's and obviously that will lower your overall FG%

I have two words for you: Mike James.

You give a guy enough shots, he'll score 25+

Melo's FG% isn't anything to write home about.

Last year Melo finished 108th in the league in TS%: http://www.sportingcharts.com/nba/stats/player-true-shooting-percent-leaders/2013/

That means that literally a quarter of the league topped him.

So, yeah... Melo is the PRIME example of the idea: Give a guy enough shots, and he'll score 25 points a game.

D-Leethal
05-23-2014, 09:52 AM
Good points, but I mentioned several players, and English's passing game is what makes English better in my estimation.

That said, English to a lot of long range jumpers and mid-range jumpers, so it's not like his shots were all at the basket of something.

As TS% isn't the only percentage to look at. Look a 2pt%. English is well over .500 there, and Melo is well under it (.476 on his career).

English is also the better FT shoot (.832 to .811: though both are great there).

English got 1.2 points per shot, and Melo gets.... 1.2!

So, yeah, his three pointers make up for his inferior shooting inside the arc, and he gets more fouls, but being a superstar, he gets superstar treatment.

Look at the turnovers and assists though. English is scoring as much on as many shots and then hands out 4.1 assists per36 on his career to Melo's 3.0, but gets only 2.7 turnovers to Melo's 2.9. A MUCH better assist-to-turnover ratio.

You make a good argument with the TS%, but all your argument says is that, YES, English WAS a better shooter, Melo just got more FT shots.

The difference in 2pt% is INSANELY high. If is very significant. Over .030 difference. That is a lot. If I'm looking for a scorer, I'll take the one who shooting >500 over the one who shoot .475 ever time, unless that .475 is strictly beyond the arc.


As to guys being able to score 25 points a game... the players in this league are amazing athletes. Many of them could score 25 points a game IF you give them as many shots as Melo (that's almost 20 a game on his career). You mentioned Ariza and said he couldn't do it, but he ony got 13 shots a game in his highest season, and he wasn't the first option, so I have NO clue what you are talking about, but since YOU brought up Ariza, and the importance of 3pt shooting and fouls (which is essentially an argument for points-per-shot), it is important to not that Ariza score 1.29 points per shot this season, to Melo 1.28 on his career, so...

You can't simply increase the volume of shots and expect the same (or even close) efficiency. It doesn't work that way dude. Guys who take less shots are usually getting spoonfed buckets and don't have to deal with double teams, opposing teams best defenders, multiple defenders shading your side of the court. Trevor Ariza would not be able to get 25 shots off if he tried, thats the point. More shots = more shots that are well contested = tougher shots to attempt = tougher shots to make. Guys that only take 8-10 shots normally stay there because they aren't capable of scoring in the variety of ways required to take 25 shots and score 35 points on a regular basis (not a freak game that role players always have).

D-Leethal
05-23-2014, 09:53 AM
I have two words for you: Mike James.

You give a guy enough shots, he'll score 25+

Melo's FG% isn't anything to write home about.

Last year Melo finished 108th in the league in TS%: http://www.sportingcharts.com/nba/stats/player-true-shooting-percent-leaders/2013/

That means that literally a quarter of the league topped him.

So, yeah... Melo is the PRIME example of the idea: Give a guy enough shots, and he'll score 25 points a game.

You really just pulled up a list of TS% that includes spot minute players and role players to prove your point? Jesus christ man, your argument is as weak as it gets.

JasonJohnHorn
05-23-2014, 09:59 AM
I skipped the rest, but the bold is simply not true and is one of the biggest nonsense misconceptions on this forum. Not many players in this league are capable of getting the variety of shots it takes to score 30ppg. You can't simply say a guy who scores 15ppg at 50% would drop 30ppg on high efficiency if you up his shot totals. A huge chunk of those shots will end up being contested in a way where a catch and shoot guy or a "play off the ball" guy wouldn't be able to get a shot off at all let alone make one. Thats the spreadsheet mentality thats rampant on this forum but nonsensical in reality. Melo has the utmost respect of his peers, and everyone who matters in the NBA. He is just a favorite punching bag for fans who have elementary knowledge of the game and love pointing fingers, placing blame and finding scapegoats. He has shown you can win with him as your #1 guy, he just needs the proper cast around him that meshes with his skillset, no different than any other player in this league.

Oh, and get him better weapons, his efficiency goes up, not that hard to pull up basketball reference and see how that works for pretty much every player in the history of the game.

I've been watching basketball for 25 years (which may be less than you), and in that time I have seen a number of BAD players average 20+ points a game.

The reason most of these guys don't reach 25+ is because the coaches know not to give them the shots. In the case of Melo, the coach didn't realize that and gave him the shots, of course, in Woodson's defence, he didn't have any options.

I'm not saying that Tynson Chandler is going to become a beast of a scorer if you give him more shots, but you give Monta Ellis more shots, and he'll score more. The scoring average doens't impress me.

I've seen Mike James average 20 points a game. I've seen Allen Iverson lead the league in scoring with a .387 FG%, so DON'T tell me that a player who shoots .450 can't score 25 if you give him enough shots, because YES HE CAN.

Are there exceptions? Sure. DeAndre Jordan, Tyson Chandler, and guys like that, are not going to be socring 25+, but guys like Iverson, Melo, Jennings Marbury, Francis and Ellis and.... MIKE JAMES WILL IF you give them the shots.

Melo PROVES the point.

nycericanguy
05-23-2014, 10:09 AM
I've been watching basketball for 25 years (which may be less than you), and in that time I have seen a number of BAD players average 20+ points a game.

The reason most of these guys don't reach 25+ is because the coaches know not to give them the shots. In the case of Melo, the coach didn't realize that and gave him the shots, of course, in Woodson's defence, he didn't have any options.

I'm not saying that Tynson Chandler is going to become a beast of a scorer if you give him more shots, but you give Monta Ellis more shots, and he'll score more. The scoring average doens't impress me.

I've seen Mike James average 20 points a game. I've seen Allen Iverson lead the league in scoring with a .387 FG%, so DON'T tell me that a player who shoots .450 can't score 25 if you give him enough shots, because YES HE CAN.

Are there exceptions? Sure. DeAndre Jordan, Tyson Chandler, and guys like that, are not going to be socring 25+, but guys like Iverson, Melo, Jennings Marbury, Francis and Ellis and.... MIKE JAMES WILL IF you give them the shots.

Melo PROVES the point.

Mike James? the career 9ppg and 41% shooter?

Of course there are guys that can score... but not many can do it while shooting 45/40/80 like Melo does these days... not many can do it while leading their teams to winning seasons as the #1 guy... which Melo has done every year in his career except last year.

But even then the list wouldn't be that long like the OP suggest when he says "just about anybody can score more than Melo if given the shots".

Jamiecballer
05-23-2014, 10:14 AM
I don't think its unfair. When you have come in as a superstar talent but never adapt to the fact that its truly a team game you deserve the criticism that comes.

People don't expect these superstar kids to necessarily get it right away but they are expected to learn from their failures and Melo never does.

ManRam
05-23-2014, 10:20 AM
Like most high profile players, I think there's a large contingent that underrates him and a large contingent that overrates him. I think JJH just showed how there are a ton that don't give him enough credit. I think the fact that the previous six posts to this were made by Knicks fans shows that they are certainly quite loyal to him (well, I got sidetracked so I'm sure others have posted by now...)

The guy needs the right pieces around him, but when they're there he can be a ridiculously strong asset. The things he does well he does really well. I think coaching and roster problems have kinda made things tougher lately. He shouldn't be playing the 3 nearly as much as he does, or even at all. He doesn't have really any other playmakers around him to take some of the load off him. He has some flaws, for sure...but there are only maybe 2 or 3 players that don't.

I don't know. I kinda toe the line and stay relatively in the middle. Right now I think common belief values Melo a little less than he rightfully should be. But he was never the "best pure scorer" in the league nor a true top-5 player either.

JasonJohnHorn
05-23-2014, 10:26 AM
Mike James? the career 9ppg and 41% shooter?

Of course there are guys that can score... but not many can do it while shooting 45/40/80 like Melo does these days... not many can do it while leading their teams to winning seasons as the #1 guy... which Melo has done every year in his career except last year.

But even then the list wouldn't be that long like the OP suggest when he says "just about anybody can score more than Melo if given the shots".

Of course James was a below average player: THAT IS MY POINT! Even HE still managed to post 20 points a game (and his 41% is higher than the 39% Iverson shot at when he lead the league in scoring).

And you talk about 'winning' seasons after a season where Melo failed to make the post season in the East where the 8th seed only had 38 wins!

That is not a 'winning' season.

When he had Karl and a great support cast, yes, he got to the playoffs... but that speaks to his supporting cast.

slashsnake
05-23-2014, 10:28 AM
It's the fact that he can't facilitate for others, and has an unimpressive FG% that hurts him.

Almost anybody in the league can score 25 points a game if you give them as many shots as Melo, and MANY would score more than him.

Well I think he has some big questions about him and rightfully so, but just because Ibaka, Birdman, Collison, and Nene can shoot 60% doesn't mean they would do that as a #1 option forced to create on their own as the focus of a defense. Look at a guy like Bosh. More of a play off Wade and Lebron type scorer now, and his FG% the last couple years are sky high. Arron Afflalo moved into a top role in Olrando and his has dropped from when he was with the Nuggets. Nene is a great example too. 56% shooting in Denver with lots of other options, now shooting more, and a 50% shooter.



His defense isn't awful anymore but it isn't great. Its barely good, and seems to just come and go when he wants it to. There's a reason he doesn't draw the toughest assignments (when he asked for that in Denver, it was an utter failure for a few weeks before they rescinded that).

JasonJohnHorn
05-23-2014, 10:32 AM
Like most high profile players, I think there's a large contingent that underrates him and a large contingent that overrates him. I think JJH just showed how there are a ton that don't give him enough credit. I think the fact that the previous six posts to this were made by Knicks fans shows that they are certainly quite loyal to him (well, I got sidetracked so I'm sure others have posted by now...)

The guy needs the right pieces around him, but when they're there he can be a ridiculously strong asset. The things he does well he does really well. I think coaching and roster problems have kinda made things tougher lately. He shouldn't be playing the 3 nearly as much as he does, or even at all. He doesn't have really any other playmakers around him to take some of the load off him. He has some flaws, for sure...but there are only maybe 2 or 3 players that don't.

I don't know. I kinda toe the line and stay relatively in the middle. Right now I think common belief values Melo a little less than he rightfully should be. But he was never the "best pure scorer" in the league nor a true top-5 player either.

For the record, I said he was "Great" just not 'That great".

Melo is an amazing player, and it is possible to build a champion around him, I'd just rather build a champion around any other number of players instead.

The Pistons won with Mark Aguirre and were very close to winning with Andrian Dantley, so yeah, if Melo had a poitn guard like Zeke and a SG like Dumars and a C like Laimbeer and a defender like Rodman, and a guy like the Mircowave coming off the bench, and a coach like Chuck Daly, then yes, he could win a championship, but then, by that point, is the team built around him? Or is he just a piece to compliment other players?

I've gotten to see some VERY talented SFs play and NOT get the kind of praise that Melo gets. Alex English was an AMAZING basketball player, but he played in the shadow of Bird, Dr. J, Worthy and Nique. The fact that Melo get criticized doesn't bother me because I've seen better guys get far less praise.

That said, as a Pistons fan, I'd gladly take Melo in trade for Jennings and Smith in a heart beat, and I think as long as free agency brought in a decent point guard, that team would be able to win it all if coached well and given a couple of seasons.

Just because I'm arguing that Melo isn't as good as a lot of other SFs, doesn't mean that I don't think he is amazing. I just think others are better.

nycericanguy
05-23-2014, 10:34 AM
Of course James was a below average player: THAT IS MY POINT! Even HE still managed to post 20 points a game (and his 41% is higher than the 39% Iverson shot at when he lead the league in scoring).

And you talk about 'winning' seasons after a season where Melo failed to make the post season in the East where the 8th seed only had 38 wins!

That is not a 'winning' season.

When he had Karl and a great support cast, yes, he got to the playoffs... but that speaks to his supporting cast.

umm he's won in NY too, 54 wins last year with JR, Felt & Tyson...?

I don't even know what your point is anymore? That guys that suck can score 20ppg and shoot 40% on horrible teams? Sure!

I mean Jennings & Ellis in MIL together both scored 16-20ppg on 38-40% shooting while being in the lottery. is that supposed to be impressive? Melo scores 25 on 46% for his career and his teams have averaged close to 50 wins while never having a 2nd scorer outside of the 1 full season he played with AI... that year he shot .492% . btw. and while spending most of his career in the stacked West... you want to credit Karl instead and his "great supporting cast"... sure go ahead again...

You want to nitpick his ONE losing season from last year in which everyone around him played like garbage? Sure go ahead...

slashsnake
05-23-2014, 10:51 AM
I have two words for you: Mike James.

You give a guy enough shots, he'll score 25+

Melo's FG% isn't anything to write home about.

Last year Melo finished 108th in the league in TS%: http://www.sportingcharts.com/nba/stats/player-true-shooting-percent-leaders/2013/

That means that literally a quarter of the league topped him.

So, yeah... Melo is the PRIME example of the idea: Give a guy enough shots, and he'll score 25 points a game.

two words back... Jud Buechler.

Michael Jordan in 1997 was 135th in TS%. Jud was top 100. The ONLY reason Jordan was a greater scorer than his teammates like Jud Buechler and Steve Kerr was his coach had some man love for him and fed him shots, knowing full well that it was a mistake and Jud should have been the focal point of that offense. Kerr edged Jordan every single year in TS%.

So no. Melo isn't the prime example. Jordan is. He's not on the level offensively of a Mike Miller, Jose Calderon, or Kyle Korver. Phill messed up. His first threepeat would have been better going through Bill Cartwright, and his 2nd through Steve Kerr and made Jordan just a defensive specialist.

Kobe is (TS% below Christian Laettner). Dennis Rodman is an offensive scorer on par with Clyde Drexler. Sorry Ewing and Olajuwon, Samuel Dalembert is truly the better scoring center. Sorry Dr J. If we just give Shane Battier the reigns, he's the elite scoring wing, not you.

I just have a problem with a statement that says Tyson Chandler just needs more shots to be the best scorer the NBA has ever seen. That his offensive skill at scoring beats out anyone else playing today, its just a lack of volume holding him back.

ManRam
05-23-2014, 10:56 AM
umm he's won in NY too, 54 wins last year with JR, Felt & Tyson...?

Kinda the problem. When you have such a polarizing player like Melo go from an AMAZING season one year to a huge disappointment of one the next (mostly speaking in terms of team success), well, people's minds are gonna melt. Most people will take it to the extreme. Those that wan't to think Melo is the greatest aren't going to forget the moments when he has been, and those that don't are going to be quick to dismiss the times he was.

LongIslandIcedZ
05-23-2014, 11:08 AM
Most high profile athletes get worse reputations than they deserve. Especially on the internet.

Crackadalic
05-23-2014, 11:14 AM
Of course James was a below average player: THAT IS MY POINT! Even HE still managed to post 20 points a game (and his 41% is higher than the 39% Iverson shot at when he lead the league in scoring).

And you talk about 'winning' seasons after a season where Melo failed to make the post season in the East where the 8th seed only had 38 wins!

That is not a 'winning' season.

When he had Karl and a great support cast, yes, he got to the playoffs... but that speaks to his supporting cast.

Dude your better then this.

He had one bad season when most of his team was shooting career low's % wise. The whole team. How the hell do you compensate that. He's not the young athletic guy like he is anymore like Durant or the physical freak like Lebron. Do you know how many times he pass and people just brick shots? It was like watching landry fields in the playoffs except half the team was playing for more then half the season. They got 37 wins projected before taking account injuries and all the off the court nonsense including. Contexts bro

As much flack as he gets tell me how many times in the playoffs outside of one or two years was his team the clear favorite. Spurs twice(Champs) Lakers twice(Finals,Champs) Wolves(MVP KG,WCF) Talented Clippers, Utah(George Karl had cancer) Boston(Melos starting 5 after game 1 was Toney Douglas,Landry Fields, Bill Walker, Ronnie Turief. Yes it was that bad, Miami(champs) Pacers(Should have won)

So maybe three years his team had a chance to win with one of those three where the team choke. Other then that you can't tell me he had a talented team for most of those years

His best player was AI for a year and a half and a hobble Amare. When he has a sidekick like a westbrook/dwade etc his scoring % would be that much higher for a longer period of time

Plus he is now incorporating 3's in his game and taking less two's unlike he did his first 6 or so years

Until then he will never be more then what he is. A gifted volume scorer, good rebounder and sub par passer who needs a better team to be a champion.

Stinkyoutsider
05-23-2014, 11:33 AM
Melo gets blasted by the media because he's a top scorer. If he was a top rebounder or playmaker, I'm not sure he gets blasted quite like he gets...

Until Melo has a chance to play with a teammate who's his equal, I'm not going to pass judgement on him. The only guy he's ever played with with talent level equal or better is Allen Iverson.

I honestly think he will continue to get blasted by everyone until he finally makes the decision to find someone who can play at his level and help him win. It's unfortunate that Melo has had very few opportunities. He's going to hear it from the media if he seeks out a situation like Chicago or Houston instead of trying to carry the team but I think he'll be happier if he makes the move.

Tony_Starks
05-23-2014, 11:38 AM
I don't think Melo gets nearly enough credit for being a winner and impact player from day one. He was the best player in Denver day 1 and took them to the playoffs in the loaded west as a rookie and every year after. How many rookies do that? Lebron couldn't even get Cleveland to the playoffs his first year in the East! Kevin Love has yet to make a playoffs. KDs team was in the lottery what his first 3 years?

It's not like Denver had spectacular talent either. They had solid role players but they also had Nene/ K Martin who were always hurt and JR who was probably a bigger head case then than he is now. When you factor in the serious competition out west, him leading his team to 50 + win playoff seasons year in and year out is nothing to scoff at.

Chronz
05-23-2014, 12:05 PM
His numbers are those of a superstar
I dont know about that one.



the main knock on him has always been that he's a ballhog that can't help a team be successful through his playing style.
The biggest knock on him was his inattentiveness defensively, poor work habbits and that he struggles with playmaking/leadership. Its why his Coaches tried to get him to play more like Kobe/Tmac in terms of combining scoring+passing.


Yet a lot of people choose to forget that he went to the WCFs with Denver in 2009 where they lost 4-2 to the eventual champs Lakers.
A year in which he finally took defense seriously, had come straight from the Olympics so he was in shape from day 1 and had a player who was arguably more important than him in Billups added to the team.


So it's not that a team can't be a contender with him but rather that he didn't have a whole lot of good teams surrounding him since then.
Depends on how you define contender and make no mistake, if the team defense is good enough, you can win alot of games with some really flawed go-to guys. Even Jerry Stackhouse won 50 games once while averaging 21PPG+5AST. Its not THAT impressive, granted Melo is far better than Stackhouse, Im just trying to illustrate how much of a team game this is. Melo has had a fine career, has prolly been a top-15-20 player throughout, but hes been hailed as something more from the masses that I have interacted with. Thats just wrong, even today you have people thinking he was the best player on his team from day 1. If anything , his scoring prowess causes him to get too much respect.



In retrospect that WCF trip has made him more successful (on a team basis) than say CP3 for example, who doesn't get nearly as criticized because his playing style is more of a distributor whereas Melo only scores. Which is exactly what a scorer should do that is.
Thats mostly because of HOW they perform as individuals more than what their role is, IMO. Blind/Arbitrary glances of how far their teams advanced tell us very little about the actual player.




I don't think Melo gets nearly enough credit for being a winner and impact player from day one.
I think he gets too much. People always bring up his rookie year and Denver making the jump....


He was the best player in Denver day 1 and took them to the playoffs in the loaded west as a rookie and every year after. How many rookies do that? Lebron couldn't even get Cleveland to the playoffs his first year in the East! Kevin Love has yet to make a playoffs. KDs team was in the lottery what his first 3 years?

lol... see. What if we dont buy that Melo was their best player from day 1? More importantly, what does it say that you bring up winning in the "stacked west" when we are currently seeing a much better version of Melo today, and he cant even make the playoffs in the Weak East. It should say how much of a team game this is, and thats exactly why we shouldn't give Melo too much credit for what he accomplished as a rook, his team SHOULD be making the playoffs, he certainly wasn't carrying scrubs ala Kobe/Tmac, more often than not, his teams were capable of holding down the fort while he rode the bench. He and Bron (Durant at the same age) were pretty much on equal footing back then but it has very little to do with what their teams accomplished IMO.


It's not like Denver had spectacular talent either. They had solid role players but they also had Nene/ K Martin who were always hurt and JR who was probably a bigger head case then than he is now. When you factor in the serious competition out west, him leading his team to 50 + win playoff seasons year in and year out is nothing to scoff at.
By year in year, year out, you mean 3 of 7 seasons. Which I agree, is nothing to scoff at but its not the stuff of legend either.

JasonJohnHorn
05-23-2014, 12:21 PM
two words back... Jud Buechler.

Michael Jordan in 1997 was 135th in TS%. Jud was top 100. The ONLY reason Jordan was a greater scorer than his teammates like Jud Buechler and Steve Kerr was his coach had some man love for him and fed him shots, knowing full well that it was a mistake and Jud should have been the focal point of that offense. Kerr edged Jordan every single year in TS%.

So no. Melo isn't the prime example. Jordan is. He's not on the level offensively of a Mike Miller, Jose Calderon, or Kyle Korver. Phill messed up. His first threepeat would have been better going through Bill Cartwright, and his 2nd through Steve Kerr and made Jordan just a defensive specialist.

Kobe is (TS% below Christian Laettner). Dennis Rodman is an offensive scorer on par with Clyde Drexler. Sorry Ewing and Olajuwon, Samuel Dalembert is truly the better scoring center. Sorry Dr J. If we just give Shane Battier the reigns, he's the elite scoring wing, not you.

I just have a problem with a statement that says Tyson Chandler just needs more shots to be the best scorer the NBA has ever seen. That his offensive skill at scoring beats out anyone else playing today, its just a lack of volume holding him back.

Jordan shot over .500.

I'm not even a fan of TS%. I don't use it. A guy who shoots well from the FT and gets a lot of shots there has his percentage unevenly rasied.

FG% is likewise flawed, because 3pt% weights it down.

To evaluate a player's shooting ability, you need to look at each percentage individually. And Jordan shot over .500 from the floor, which is MUCH higher than Melo.

Obviously spot up shooter depend on ball movement. Kerr gets open shots because MJ is double-teamed. Rodman has a higher FG% because he only shoots when he has an open-lane to the basket. I am fully aware of these things.

But Melo doesn't open the game up for other people like Jordan did. He doesn't pass or set players up. And his percentage being guarded one-on-one is below what Jordan shot gettign double-teamed.

Tony_Starks
05-23-2014, 12:32 PM
By the way I hate the "any player could score X amount of points if allowed to shoot all night." No they absolutely cannot! If they could they would. If they're coaches thought they could, they'd have the green light.

Saying stuff like that shows a lack of fundamental basketball knowledge. It is not that easy to have the stamina, shot selection, ability to get to the line, and flat out skill to score big points night in and night out, in particular when you're the focus of the entire teams defense.

Crackadalic
05-23-2014, 12:37 PM
By the way I hate the "any player could score X amount of points if allowed to shoot all night." No they absolutely cannot! If they could they would. If they're coaches thought they could, they'd have the green light.

Saying stuff like that shows a lack of fundamental basketball knowledge. It is not that easy to have the stamina, shot selection, ability to get to the line, and flat out skill to score big points night in and night out, in particular when you're the focus of the entire teams defense.

I'm not going to be those homers that act like melo is God. He's a flawed superstar but people forget how good of a scorer he is. He just takes the lowest % shot more so then none. Plus it is not easy to score 25 plus points if giving the same volume. Like you said if that was true anyone can do it. Only a selected few can put up points like that high volume or not. 62 points isn't anything anybody can do.

slashsnake
05-23-2014, 01:00 PM
lol... see. What if we dont buy that Melo was their best player from day 1? More importantly, what does it say that you bring up winning in the "stacked west" when we are currently seeing a much better version of Melo today, and he cant even make the playoffs in the Weak East. It should say how much of a team game this is, and thats exactly why we shouldn't give Melo too much credit for what he accomplished as a rook, his team SHOULD be making the playoffs, he certainly wasn't carrying scrubs ala Kobe/Tmac, more often than not, his teams were capable of holding down the fort while he rode the bench. He and Bron (Durant at the same age) were pretty much on equal footing back then but it has very little to do with what their teams accomplished IMO.



I am bringing this from probably watching 400 nuggets games of the Melo time in Denver on Altitude here in Denver.

I think he was their best player, but that the teams best strength was their depth, coaching, and pace. They went 10+ deep more often than not, and pushed the pace with a better bench (Denver's altitude helped at home too). Of course in the playoffs, that bench shrinks. Their top 10 might be better than the Lakers, but the Lakers top 7 is better than the Nuggets. So a 10 man regular season rotation would favor Denver. A 7 man in the post-season favors LA.

The other thing is those freebie baskets disappear in the post-season. Teams get back on D every posession. They hustle all game. Denver took advantage of that a lot in the regular season but it failed in the playoffs to work with any consistency.

I think you saw after Melo leave, the Nuggets kept doing the same thing. Winning with depth and pace, and when they got to the playoffs, those two factors again were minimized. Melo missed a bunch of games without Melo and still were a good team those last two years (on pace for 49 win seasons without him).

The year they went deep in Denver, everyone caught fire. Chauncey was lighting teams up in that post-season. JR was hot, I think he was shooting around 50% from the field heading into the WCF. Nene and Kmart were hitting their shots too. They were finally getting those transition buckets and easy shots in the post-season for once (didn't face great defensive teams for once out of the gate). I think Denver outside of Melo was shooting something like 53% through those first two rounds. Then the Lakers shut down a lot of that shooting, Melo went back to his one dimensional self and it was over.

I was a huge Melo fan, not upset at him for leaving either (I liked who we picked up). But my biggest problem with him outside of the locker room potential issues (word was Karl could only talk to him on the court, or in full team meetings, anything else had to be through his agent) was you could see the greatness. He'd lock down a guy here and there for a stretch. He'd make some great passes. He'd beast on the boards. Then he'd just become that scorer only for a huge stretch and forget about it. I don't know how many times I would see him and say he can make a double double look easy and impossible at the same time. Just by effort.

JasonJohnHorn
05-23-2014, 02:24 PM
By the way I hate the "any player could score X amount of points if allowed to shoot all night." No they absolutely cannot! If they could they would. If they're coaches thought they could, they'd have the green light.

Saying stuff like that shows a lack of fundamental basketball knowledge. It is not that easy to have the stamina, shot selection, ability to get to the line, and flat out skill to score big points night in and night out, in particular when you're the focus of the entire teams defense.

It's not a matter of 'if they could they would', but rather a matter that most coaches know that it is important to move the ball around and get the best shot possible, and that usually means that the same guy doesn't shoot every time

No coach who is trying to win is going to give an average player 20+ shots a game. That is why the Bucks sucked last year and the Pistons sucked this year, because they gave so many shots to Jennings.

Look at Iverson. The dude shot UNDER 400 and led the league in scoring. Why was that? Because the coach gave him the shots.


Look at Tony Wroten. The guy averaged less than 3 points per game last year. This year he was dropping 20 point games left and right when he was given the shots. Spencer Hawes started the season averaging 20/10 when Philly was giving him shots, despite the fact that he'd never posted as many as 12 a game. Give him the shots, he makes them. People bemoan that Evan Turner is a bad player, but he averaged almost 20 a game on 15 shots.

There are examples of this EVERY year.

And I didn't say 'any' I said many. A coach has to decide what system is going to get them the most points. If you have a weak team like NY (who was a lottery team), then Melo shooting a lot is your best option (or is it?).

Philly and LAL had D-League players LITERALLY D-League players, that were going off for 20 points when they were given the shots. Ryan Kelly and Xavier Henry put up lots of points on nights when they were givne shots.

If you don't think most NBA players could score 20 a night with 18+ shots a game, or 25 with 21+ shots a game, then you grossly underestimate how talented you have to be to get on the NBA hardwood. Every one of these guys is an amazing athlete.


Obviously guys like Ben Wallce and Tynson Chandler and DeAndre Jordan wouldn't post much more with more shots, but guys like Xavier Henry, Ryany Kelly, Tony Wroten and Mike James would all score 20+ if given the shots. The reason they aren't given the shots is because of either other deficiencies in their game which ensures they only get limited minutes, or the fact that the coach wants all the players to get touches or has better options.

So, yeah, 1.2 points per shot (which is what Melo has on his career) is not that impressive to me, especially in the context of his limited playmaking abilities and defense.

Is he a great player? Yes. He's a great rebounder for a SF, and he IS a good scorer. Is he the best scoring option in the league? No. Have there been 15 or more SF (current or past) that are better scoring options? Yes.

Look at Iverson's stats and percentages. If you don't believe that a horrid shooter can score 25+ a game with enough shots after looking at his numbers, then there will be no convincing you.

Teams work with what they got. The more weapons you have, the less points your team's best scorer is going to post. It is the reason LBJ lead the league in scoring in CLE but hasn't in MIA.

Chronz
05-23-2014, 02:32 PM
I am bringing this from probably watching 400 nuggets games of the Melo time in Denver on Altitude here in Denver.

I've only closely followed him since the advent of league pass but I saw at least 30-40 or so games of his a year, mostly only the good games considering thats what people uploaded in the first place. So if anything, I might have a friendlier memory of his game during those days than I really should, I definitely had him as my ROY. I still dont see him as their best player from day 1 tho.

nycericanguy
05-23-2014, 03:01 PM
It's not a matter of 'if they could they would', but rather a matter that most coaches know that it is important to move the ball around and get the best shot possible, and that usually means that the same guy doesn't shoot every time

No coach who is trying to win is going to give an average player 20+ shots a game. That is why the Bucks sucked last year and the Pistons sucked this year, because they gave so many shots to Jennings.

Look at Iverson. The dude shot UNDER 400 and led the league in scoring. Why was that? Because the coach gave him the shots.


Look at Tony Wroten. The guy averaged less than 3 points per game last year. This year he was dropping 20 point games left and right when he was given the shots. Spencer Hawes started the season averaging 20/10 when Philly was giving him shots, despite the fact that he'd never posted as many as 12 a game. Give him the shots, he makes them. People bemoan that Evan Turner is a bad player, but he averaged almost 20 a game on 15 shots.

There are examples of this EVERY year.

And I didn't say 'any' I said many. A coach has to decide what system is going to get them the most points. If you have a weak team like NY (who was a lottery team), then Melo shooting a lot is your best option (or is it?).

Philly and LAL had D-League players LITERALLY D-League players, that were going off for 20 points when they were given the shots. Ryan Kelly and Xavier Henry put up lots of points on nights when they were givne shots.

If you don't think most NBA players could score 20 a night with 18+ shots a game, or 25 with 21+ shots a game, then you grossly underestimate how talented you have to be to get on the NBA hardwood. Every one of these guys is an amazing athlete.


Obviously guys like Ben Wallce and Tynson Chandler and DeAndre Jordan wouldn't post much more with more shots, but guys like Xavier Henry, Ryany Kelly, Tony Wroten and Mike James would all score 20+ if given the shots. The reason they aren't given the shots is because of either other deficiencies in their game which ensures they only get limited minutes, or the fact that the coach wants all the players to get touches or has better options.

So, yeah, 1.2 points per shot (which is what Melo has on his career) is not that impressive to me, especially in the context of his limited playmaking abilities and defense.

Is he a great player? Yes. He's a great rebounder for a SF, and he IS a good scorer. Is he the best scoring option in the league? No. Have there been 15 or more SF (current or past) that are better scoring options? Yes.

Look at Iverson's stats and percentages. If you don't believe that a horrid shooter can score 25+ a game with enough shots after looking at his numbers, then there will be no convincing you.

Teams work with what they got. The more weapons you have, the less points your team's best scorer is going to post. It is the reason LBJ lead the league in scoring in CLE but hasn't in MIA.

You keep bringing up AI... Now AI might only have been a career 43% shooter, but he made up for it by getting to the line at insane rates and constantly putting pressure on defenses.

And he led some pretty mediocre teams deep into the playoffs.

I'm sure there are plenty of guys that could score 20ppg for short stretches like Mike James who you also bring up. Lin had a 25 game stretch where he averaged like 21 & 8... Darren Collison put together an amazing run...etc.

The difference though is doing it game in and game out, when defenses are focused on you, season after season, AND leading your teams to wins by doing so.

Ellis & Jennings could win nothing alone or together, now can you imagine what TWO Melo's on one team would do?

Melo has done nothing but win as the #1 guy on his team, you can bring up last season all you want, but for his career he's had a lot of success as the Alpha dog of his teams, without ever having a true 2nd scorer.

slashsnake
05-23-2014, 03:03 PM
I've only closely followed him since the advent of league pass but I saw at least 30-40 or so games of his a year, mostly only the good games considering thats what people uploaded in the first place. So if anything, I might have a friendlier memory of his game during those days than I really should, I definitely had him as my ROY. I still dont see him as their best player from day 1 tho.

I kinda thought he was underrated earlier on in his career myself. He didn't get a lot of the superstar calls till later in his career.

xxplayerxx23
05-23-2014, 03:14 PM
Mike Woodson Raymond Felton, jr smith second option. That's been his problems in NY. He needs a true defensive Center, a real numer 2 option and a pg that isn't a bottom 5. If he gets a good player to help I think he would have better numbers. If he had anybody that could possibly hit a damn shot he would average more then 3.1 assists per game. He has his flaws nothing speical defenseivley( although improved) play making isn't the best (not nearly as bad as some say) I think he deserves some criticism but some of these people hate way to much.

slashsnake
05-23-2014, 04:20 PM
Philly and LAL had D-League players LITERALLY D-League players, that were going off for 20 points when they were given the shots. Ryan Kelly and Xavier Henry put up lots of points on nights when they were givne shots.

If you don't think most NBA players could score 20 a night with 18+ shots a game, or 25 with 21+ shots a game, then you grossly underestimate how talented you have to be to get on the NBA hardwood. Every one of these guys is an amazing athlete.


So, yeah, 1.2 points per shot (which is what Melo has on his career) is not that impressive to me, especially in the context of his limited playmaking abilities and defense.

Look at Iverson's stats and percentages. If you don't believe that a horrid shooter can score 25+ a game with enough shots after looking at his numbers, then there will be no convincing you.

It is funny how you keep finding guys doing this scoring and the one thing they all have in common is 20 win teams. Quite a correlation there. Might it be because they take and make the easy shots but not the hard ones you need to make to actually win games?

Sure Mike James can shoot 20 times a game. They were 2-16 in games he did that in Toronto. His other 20 coaches saw that and said HELL NO, and he never had that chance again.

I agree there are piles of players you can have heave up 25 shots and they'll get you 20 a game. If you want a great shot at the #1 overall pick, go for it. If you want win games, you'd better have an elite scorer doing that though, and that is what AI and Melo are.

No, I don't think you can take anyone and put him on a team with Dikembe Mutombo or Theo Ratliff as their #2 scoring option and say give me 30 game in and game out and they can do that as the focal point of the defense. That's why NBA GM's, coaches, and players disagree with you and say AI was a great scorer.

No, I don't think that Jodie Meeks is the best scoring guard the Lakers have had the last 15 years. His TS% says he is, but did you actually watch those games. When they needed a big shot was he able to get his off? Did opponents force double teams on him to try and stop him? No, his better TS% didn't make him a better scorer and didn't make the Lakers a better team.

Thanks for bringing up Wroten. Perfect example. His TS% is down a tad from Melo two years ago but close enough. Why is he only scoring 13 a game this year though? He shoots two shots. Get to the rim, or the three. 2.5% of his shots were midrange shots. Melo had 39% of his from there. Sure, if he could get those two shots 22 times a game, he could score 25 a game. But you don't get that in the NBA. You get 11 of those, so you score 13 a game even on a team dying for scoring threats.

Xavier Henry and Ryan Kelly combined to make the same number of shots as Kobe in the last 5 minutes of games that were close last year. 2 of them in 10 attempts. Wroten made 6. You can't create, you can't get a shot in the clutch, you can't win games.

40% of Wrotens shots were assisted. 20% of Melo's. Put the ball in his hands in the last few seconds of the shot clock, Wroten hits a 38% EFG%. Melo hits a 49% efg%. Sure, he can look close to Melo when he cuts without the ball and gets a good pass. He can look as good as Melo when he gets the open look from downtown. What he can't do is create a shot on his own when that is needed. It isn't like his coach is saying "hey you are an effective shooter, now I am limiting you to 11 shots a game". He knows what he can do. He can't create the opportunities to shoot 20 times a game.

Xavier Henry is another great example. 60% of his shots come off someone else's assist. 65% for Kelly.

They aren't able to create and take the tough shots, and their teams consistently lose if they are relied upon to be a great scorer..

There's a HUGE difference between creating your own shot, and letting others create your shot. Miami is littered with guys that can shoot. But they don't have a lot that can carry a scoring load.

BobbyHillSwag
05-23-2014, 04:34 PM
AI>your favorite player WITH the .398 he won the scoring title with. Have a good day

chitown85
05-23-2014, 04:57 PM
So basically...Mike James is as good a baller as Melo is...if given the opportunity...hmmm still want him on the Bulls and I don't think so...

smiddy012
05-23-2014, 05:07 PM
Not sure - I can tell you one thing though - his post-game conferences, during the playoffs, are pretty sad. He has the ability of a number 1 option no doubt, I'm not sure he has the leadership abilities of a number one option though.

mngopher35
05-23-2014, 05:33 PM
I think it really depends on who you ask here. Players in large markets generally have a wide range from people who love him way to much to people who bash him for no reason.

Melo is someone capable of being the #1 scoring option on a championship team. He isn't a great playmaker but he can take the focus of the defense, get his points, and not completely ruin the flow. It isn't necessarily ideal as you would like a better playmaker to get your team involved but if you pair him with a solid pg there wouldn't be a huge issue. His defense is something that isn't at a very high level either. I think a good point guard, solid 2nd scoring option, and defensive center would be huge to help him be on a contender (best year in denver he had some of this).

The reason he is overrated by many is people love big time scorers who play well in the clutch (in a big market). The reason he can be underrated is that his teams never made it very far in the playoffs which isn't solely on him. While I do think he has had solid teams it hasn't been like he was on these clear cut favorites or anything. Just like I don't blame CP3 for most of his teams lack of playoff success I won't hold it against Melo either, unless it came down to his play.

So overall I would say he is not a superstar like Lebron/KD, but he is yearly a top 7-13 type of player probably and one of the best scorers in the league (without looking year by year, just a guess).

BobbyHillSwag
05-23-2014, 06:07 PM
Jasonhorn keeps acting like Iverson wasn't the number 1 pick. Btw iverson wasn't even close to a bad shooter. His midrange was wet as ******

Kevj77
05-23-2014, 06:44 PM
Is he a great player? YES! Is he a franchise player? No. But he makes franchise player money, so when that is the case, expectations are high.This is partly a perception problem created by max contracts. Melo is making comparable money to someone like Lebron, but if there were no max contracts Lebron would make double what Melo does. There are truly only a handful of franchise players, but they aren't allowed to make what they are actually worth. Melo is beneath these players not quite a franchise guy due to max contracts he will be paid like one. The Lebrons of the world are underpaid.

SPURSFAN1
05-23-2014, 06:54 PM
Third option on a contender.

_Gmen_
05-23-2014, 08:10 PM
Yes, Carmelo Anthony is the 3rd best player in the NBA.

ManRam
05-23-2014, 08:15 PM
Third option on a contender.


Yes, Carmelo Anthony is the 3rd best player in the NBA.

This is all you need folks. Dude's polarizing. We have people that think he's far worse than he is, and people that think he's far greater than he is. That's why this overrated/underrated talk is often so tough...or even silly to me. You have like almost half of the world that gets too carried away one way (Spursfan) and almost half of the world that gets too carried away the other (Gmen). No one likes taking the middle ground with these guys.


So yeah. Some people give Melo a "worse rep than he actually deserves" and a lot of other guys don't give him a "worse rep than he actually deserves". Like is almost always the case.

Crackadalic
05-23-2014, 08:16 PM
Third option on a contender.

Thats a ignorant comment. 2nd option sure but third? Nah

SPURSFAN1
05-23-2014, 08:25 PM
Thats a ignorant comment. 2nd option sure but third? Nah

I think about it. Would I trade Tony or Tim Duncan for him? No.
Would I trade him for Kawhi? Kawhi guards the best player on the opposite team and rebounds like a center and gets you 15 points a game.
It's a toss up between Kawhi and Melo. Manu has gotten older so Melo is better than him. So 3rd on a contender is correct.
Or do you want to win 50+ games in the RS and go out in the first round(eg., Harden and Dwight)?
Yeah he sells tickets but he isn't going to win a ring anytime soon being the first or 2nd option.

xxplayerxx23
05-23-2014, 08:30 PM
1st option on a contender but they usually fall far short
2nd option on a championship team easy

tr3ymill3r
05-23-2014, 08:32 PM
If and when he goes to Houston, is he the 2nd or 3rd option on that team?

Crackadalic
05-23-2014, 08:33 PM
I think about it. Would I trade Tony or Tim Duncan for him? No.
Would I trade him for Kawhi? Kawhi guards the best player on the opposite team and rebounds like a center and gets you 15 points a game.
It's a toss up between Kawhi and Melo. Manu has gotten older so Melo is better than him. So 3rd on a contender is correct.
Or do you want to win 50+ games in the RS and go out in the first round(eg., Harden and Dwight)?
Yeah he sells tickets but he isn't going to win a ring anytime soon being the first or 2nd option.

Tim Duncan is not better then Melo now. Kawhi in another system with not play as well right now. Not everyone runs Pop's style. Any pg as your number option better be able to carry a team game after game. The spurs system is different that anybody can succeed. Stop being a homer

SPURSFAN1
05-23-2014, 08:49 PM
Tim Duncan is not better then Melo now. Kawhi in another system with not play as well right now. Not everyone runs Pop's style. Any pg as your number option better be able to carry a team game after game. The spurs system is different that anybody can succeed. Stop being a homer

Tim Duncan is way better than Melo. Almost dropping 30 points on any given night if need be. Tony runs the point as best as anyone. Dude you must be brain washed with all that NY overexposure chit.

_Gmen_
05-23-2014, 09:01 PM
LoL Duncan is not even close to Melo's level.

mngopher35
05-23-2014, 09:03 PM
This is all you need folks. Dude's polarizing. We have people that think he's far worse than he is, and people that think he's far greater than he is. That's why this overrated/underrated talk is often so tough...or even silly to me. You have like almost half of the world that gets too carried away one way (Spursfan) and almost half of the world that gets too carried away the other (Gmen). No one likes taking the middle ground with these guys.


So yeah. Some people give Melo a "worse rep than he actually deserves" and a lot of other guys don't give him a "worse rep than he actually deserves". Like is almost always the case.

haha this. I was going to do the same thing after I saw those comments back to back.

SPURSFAN1
05-23-2014, 09:20 PM
LoL Duncan is not even close to Melo's level.

Lets see. Not even making the playoffs in a historic weak eastern conference or 2nd best player on the best team in the nba in the hardest division and conference? One didn't make the playoffs and one might win his 5th ring.
Tim Duncan is all NBA first team last year being 37 years old and still being that same player or Melo who is an inefficient chucker? Ok thanks for playing. Keep reading those espn articles bro.

_Gmen_
05-23-2014, 09:35 PM
Lets see. Not even making the playoffs in a historic weak eastern conference or 2nd best player on the best team in the nba in the hardest division and conference? One didn't make the playoffs and one might win his 5th ring.
Tim Duncan is all NBA first team last year being 37 years old and still being that same player or Melo who is an inefficient chucker? Ok thanks for playing. Keep reading those espn articles bro.

I'm not sure what ESPN articles you are referring to.

I watch the games, you keep talking about age and all that, feel free.

Munkeysuit
05-23-2014, 09:47 PM
I just logged in to say that Melo isn't getting enough of a bad rep, he is over paid, overtly praised for his talents and grossly overrated. He has yet to even reach a level that will allow his fans AND his critics alike, to even take him seriously. Carmelo Anthony has been in the league just as long as Lebron James and hasn't even acquired a quarter of Lebrons accomplishments and fails to even be compared to Lebron on any level and yet he's placed in super star status?
This is just my opinion, but anyone who feels me knows that this is not a rant or not to berate Melo at all, I am just opening up the same forum to allow some sort of degree of fairness towards the amount of scrutiny a player takes, especially when it's all self inflicted (like Lebrons decision) Melo should feel pressure to perform, he should feel pressure to exceed his standards, he should feel pressure to reach a level of greatness that is "earned not given" then and only then will fans like me take him seriously, until then? he's just another ringless star Lebron James is leaving in his wake.

_Gmen_
05-23-2014, 10:29 PM
I just logged in to say that Melo isn't getting enough of a bad rep, he is over paid, overtly praised for his talents and grossly overrated. He has yet to even reach a level that will allow his fans AND his critics alike, to even take him seriously. Carmelo Anthony has been in the league just as long as Lebron James and hasn't even acquired a quarter of Lebrons accomplishments and fails to even be compared to Lebron on any level and yet he's placed in super star status?
This is just my opinion, but anyone who feels me knows that this is not a rant or not to berate Melo at all, I am just opening up the same forum to allow some sort of degree of fairness towards the amount of scrutiny a player takes, especially when it's all self inflicted (like Lebrons decision) Melo should feel pressure to perform, he should feel pressure to exceed his standards, he should feel pressure to reach a level of greatness that is "earned not given" then and only then will fans like me take him seriously, until then? he's just another ringless star Lebron James is leaving in his wake.



LeBron is the golden boy.

Get that, and how abou Carmelo has missed the playoffs less times than LeBron has despite playing in the harder conference majority of their careers.

Tony_Starks
05-23-2014, 10:39 PM
Melo just needs the right situation. Could you imagine people backing off Melo and daring him to shoot jumpers like Lebron? Never. Could you imagine Melo disappearing in the playoffs multiple times like Harden? Never. Being too passive and deferring to teammates like KD does at times? Never.

But let your novist basketball fan tell it and he's not even in the conversation with those guys. I just hope he gets to the Bulls and gets to play on a complete well coached team with another superstar like his peers. Then we'll see what's what....

JasonJohnHorn
05-23-2014, 10:46 PM
It is funny how you keep finding guys doing this scoring and the one thing they all have in common is 20 win teams. Quite a correlation there. Might it be because they take and make the easy shots but not the hard ones you need to make to actually win games?

Yeah, in most instances these guys are on lottery teams, like Melo was this year, or get eliminated int he first round, like Melo has every year save two seasons.

But sometimes a guy shoots 38% from the floor, leads the league in scoring and takes his team to the finals (Allen Iverson: 2002).

Sure... whatever... the point is that Melo's percentages are decent, but they don't touch the truly great SFs. Do you disagree with that?

JasonJohnHorn
05-23-2014, 10:48 PM
Thats a ignorant comment. 2nd option sure but third? Nah

Mark Aguirre put up similar scoring numbers as Melo and he didn't win until he was a third option in Detroit.

It's not unreasonable.

JasonJohnHorn
05-23-2014, 10:50 PM
LoL Duncan is not even close to Melo's level.

Are you lolling at somebody saying Duncan is < Melo?
Or lolling and then saying that Melo > Duncan.

There is not question as to who is better. Duncan. And it is not even remotely close. Anybody who even tries to make an argument for Melo > Duncan simply has no graps on the game of basketball.

_Gmen_
05-23-2014, 10:59 PM
Are you lolling at somebody saying Duncan is < Melo?
Or lolling and then saying that Melo > Duncan.

There is not question as to who is better. Duncan. And it is not even remotely close. Anybody who even tries to make an argument for Melo > Duncan simply has no graps on the game of basketball.



Troll on.

Kashmir13579
05-23-2014, 11:20 PM
Cancerous chucker

Kashmir13579
05-23-2014, 11:26 PM
I love how the melo apologists are so dumb and ignorant when it comes to stats, they don't even know he has been wildly efficient the last two seasons. They talk about the teams he had on Denver like he's the same players now that he was back then.


In any case, I hope P jax sign and trades his *** so he can come up short somewhere else.

Kashmir13579
05-23-2014, 11:35 PM
Could you imagine Melo disappearing in the playoffs multiple times like Harden? Never... melo doesnt disappear in the playoffs, he actually takes more shots and hits them at a substantially lower clip.

You're right about one thing though, Melo certainly needs to be in the right situation to succeed - Moreso than his peers.


'Melo, during his best individual statistical season, couldn't get his team into the playoffs in a historically week eastern conference. Thats how I will remember 'Melo.

_Gmen_
05-24-2014, 12:18 AM
Melo has gotten a lot better since he first became a Knick, with the exception of this past season's debacle.

2 seasons ago he played great defense and great team ball.

Still a much improved defensive player a a top offensive player in the league.

Crackadalic
05-24-2014, 04:24 AM
Mark Aguirre put up similar scoring numbers as Melo and he didn't win until he was a third option in Detroit.

It's not unreasonable.

And just like Mark played in a rough Western Conference and when he moved east won a chip. Detroit had a establish team and leaders so of course he had no choice but to be the third scorer

People always Talk about how tough the west is and how bad the east but when it comes to melo that doesn't matter and because of one bad season in the east with a team shooting career low's it's his fault.

And the how Historically bad east thing is overblown. Talk to me when the east had 3 sub 500 and 2 500 teams to make the playoffs. How people forget how bad those years were smh

I don't bend over for melo like the melo lovers nor do I hate melo because he doesn't play the right way at times.

I will say that if you put the pieces around him that can relive the scoring pressure off him then you can win a ring with him.

PhillyFaninLA
05-24-2014, 07:20 AM
LoL Duncan is not even close to Melo's level.


You have the backwards.....Duncan is one of the best ever at his position and is much more well rounded then Melo.

PhillyFaninLA
05-24-2014, 07:22 AM
Just let me know which Nuggets or Knicks team you think should have won a title but Melo prevented it. :)

The is a great question and point. Of course you are right, none of those teams should have won.

I meant Melo is a lot like Malone (Malone was better of course) where he is a show and a spectacle to watch but I don't think its a coincidence that the Lakers lost in the finals when they got Malone.

koreancabbage
05-24-2014, 08:43 AM
well, if NY didn't trade for Melo and gave up all their depth, which would have help Melo to begin with. i.e. sign him instead of trade for him - because it was the worst kept secret that NY wanted him.

But you can also say Melo did get help - he had a healthy Stoudemire who was balling at the time (25ppg that season) and next year, Chandler. and their worth decreased just when Melo got on the team. Now they are more liabilities than anything.

so don't say he didn't get help. because he did. Now that help has turned into big contracts of liabilities - Melo isn't on the same level as the other great SFs in the game but scorers like him, dime a dozen. Its what you do outside of scoring.

When he finally got flack in NY, for not being an all round talent, he picked up his defense and rebounding. but shooting about 45% does hurt your team. So yea, he does need new help, and fast. if they want him to retire as a Knick.

Jamiecballer
05-24-2014, 11:10 AM
Melo is as talented as any of the second tier superstars after Lebron Durant and Paul. But he's got one of the worst bball IQs in the league and it hurts him tremendously.

PurpleLynch
05-24-2014, 11:51 AM
Melo better than Duncan? Ahah,man,get the fack out of here. I didn't want to feed you,dear troll,but since mods haven't banned you,I need some more of your action to make them do it.

jimm120
05-24-2014, 11:58 AM
well, if NY didn't trade for Melo and gave up all their depth, which would have help Melo to begin with. i.e. sign him instead of trade for him - because it was the worst kept secret that NY wanted him.

But you can also say Melo did get help - he had a healthy Stoudemire who was balling at the time (25ppg that season) and next year, Chandler. and their worth decreased just when Melo got on the team. Now they are more liabilities than anything.

so don't say he didn't get help. because he did. Now that help has turned into big contracts of liabilities - Melo isn't on the same level as the other great SFs in the game but scorers like him, dime a dozen. Its what you do outside of scoring.

When he finally got flack in NY, for not being an all round talent, he picked up his defense and rebounding. but shooting about 45% does hurt your team. So yea, he does need new help, and fast. if they want him to retire as a Knick.


1st year, team was depleted from the trade. That said, they could have made it firer. Unfortunately, BOTH billups and amare got I mired in the playoffs.

2nd year...no pg. Lin/Davis...c'mon, bobby was starting! Also, Amare regressed that year.

3rd year....finally a good season. Amare was nonexistent and jr smith wasted away the 2nd round.

4th year....everyone simply sucked bad. Big time....aside for melo. He was truly the only guy that looked like an MBA player for at least half of the season.


Don't say he had help.

koreancabbage
05-24-2014, 12:06 PM
1st year, team was depleted from the trade. That said, they could have made it firer. Unfortunately, BOTH billups and amare got I mired in the playoffs.

2nd year...no pg. Lin/Davis...c'mon, bobby was starting! Also, Amare regressed that year.

3rd year....finally a good season. Amare was nonexistent and jr smith wasted away the 2nd round.

4th year....everyone simply sucked bad. Big time....aside for melo. He was truly the only guy that looked like an MBA player for at least half of the season.


Don't say he had help.

Lin SPARKED New York to the playoffs that year when Melo was out in the middle of the season. Melo chose not to play with Lin, as a teammate and even dissed him, and was his own selfish self by season's end.

He did get help its not his fault that the players that were counted on as the New York big 3: Melo, Stoudemire, Chandler - two of the 3 declined to unexpected low levels.

Same reason why Durant and Westbrook and down 2-0 in the playoffs and its not even close - they choose to play hero ball, ala Melo, and ignore teammates and they don't make teammates better at all. Thats been the knock on Melo.

Melo HAD help, but that help has become liabilities financially, crippling the Knicks with immovable contracts.

JasonJohnHorn
05-24-2014, 12:39 PM
Troll on.

How is that trolling?

Tim Duncan:
1 ROY
2 NBA MVP awards
3 Finals MVP awards
4 NBA Championships
5 Conference Championships
11 Division Titles
14 ASG
14 All-NBA team selections
14 All-Defensive Team selections

Carmelo Anthony
No MVPs
No ROY
No All-defensive team
No championships
No conference titles
> Division titles
> ASG
> All-NBA

How is it trolling to say Duncan is better than Melo?
How is it trolling?

blahblahyoutoo
05-24-2014, 04:28 PM
He is all flash and no substance.

He hits a ton of last second shots but is the reason those shots need to be hit in the first place.

You cannot win a title (unless the team is as stacked as the Gold Medal team he was on) with him. Guys like him are shows and stat guys, the also can take a team to the brink but no further. As a Sixers fan I hope he stays on the Knicks or goes to the Lakers or Celtics.

he's like 1/18 in shots to win/tie last season, so no he's not clutch.

blahblahyoutoo
05-24-2014, 04:29 PM
what happened to your big 3 in melo, amare and chandler? knicks fans was touting that all over NBA forum the season u signed chandler.
or big 4 if you include #1 overall pick bargnani.


Melo is a hell of a scorer, a good rebounder and a better defender than we give him credit for. Does he makes his teammates better? Absolutely not, but you can make the same argument for Kobe. (btw not comparing melo and kobe)

every superstar in this league have more help than him. lebron, wade and bosh, CP3 and blake griffin, KD, WB, Ibaka. Harden and Dwight and the list goes on. Melo's best side kick in his career was a washed up, one foot out the league Iverson.

He's good, he just needs help. No one can do it by themselves

Chronz
05-24-2014, 04:41 PM
Melo better than Duncan? Ahah,man,get the fack out of here. I didn't want to feed you,dear troll,but since mods haven't banned you,I need some more of your action to make them do it.

lol

TheQueensKid
05-24-2014, 05:14 PM
Melo is a hell of a player seeing him play every game this year along with seeing about 80% of Durants games I can't say Durant is that much better offensively than Melo. Melo is an offensive juggernaut who can turn nothing into something in terms of broken offensive plays (which the Knicks had nearly play) he CAN defend too the problem is if he doesn't need to play defense he won't, he gives LBJ some trouble when they meet up. He can pass and rebound not great at either but he can do it. Problem is Knicks are an ISO team with 1 maybe 2 scorers at most.

TheNumber37
05-24-2014, 05:29 PM
People who so heavily critique the games of guys like Melo and Iverson RARELY watch their games.

They look at Stat sheets and bring up numbers like FG% and True shooting... but can't look at the games and speak as to why those players play that way.

Looking at the Way Melo plays in the olympics, showcases what he does best... Rebounds, scores... He can be a better passer sure, but when you are passing to guys who are either streaky, not good shooters or not in their prime.
It's really all about who you play with.. Hell, Rondo's assists took a about a 30% hit when Shaq went down...
I'm sure if Melo played with a Howard type his shooting and assists numbers would go up. Because there's a clear option to him...

Melo facing a double team and looking to his left and seeing Felton , to the right and seeing JR or Shump...

I might shoot that too, especailly considering it's probably the higher percentage shot... and at that moment, he is in the positoin his coaches want him to be to suceed the most.

If Melo plays in the Traingle and doesnt' tick up his assists to more than 4 or 5 a game, then we know what's up.

_Gmen_
05-24-2014, 09:07 PM
You have the backwards.....Duncan is one of the best ever at his position and is much more well rounded then Melo.

Sure, but right now Melo is the superior player.

_Gmen_
05-24-2014, 09:08 PM
How is that trolling?

Tim Duncan:
1 ROY
2 NBA MVP awards
3 Finals MVP awards
4 NBA Championships
5 Conference Championships
11 Division Titles
14 ASG
14 All-NBA team selections
14 All-Defensive Team selections

Carmelo Anthony
No MVPs
No ROY
No All-defensive team
No championships
No conference titles
> Division titles
> ASG
> All-NBA

How is it trolling to say Duncan is better than Melo?
How is it trolling?

What do 14 years worth of awards have to do with right now?

Duncan is still great right now, but Melo is a top player in the league.

PurpleLynch
05-25-2014, 06:03 AM
What do 14 years worth of awards have to do with right now?

Duncan is still great right now, but Melo is a top player in the league.

Melo(age 29) 13-14 stats:
27.4 ppg
8.1 rpg
3.1 apg
1.2 spg
2.6 tpg
.452 fg%
38.7 mpg

Tim Duncan(age 38) 13-14 stats:
15.1 ppg
9.7 rpg
3 apg
2.1 bpg
1.8 tpg
.490 fg%
29.2 mpg

And still Duncan is a better defender the Melo. Melo has good stats and he's 29,but pales compared to an old Duncan(Melo won't be even in the league at age 38 imo).Your point is flawed.

amos1er
05-25-2014, 07:02 AM
Melo was on only one good team since he has played in this league. That was back in 2009. He lost to a great Lakers team in a very close series. No disrespect. Though I will say that defensively he needs to step up a lot and his rebounding was subpar up until recently. Though I will say that he has a worse rep than he deserves. He is a top ten player in this league for sure and sometimes that doesn't manifest itself properly as his teams have been crap mostly over the years. His decision to go to New York is one that will haunt him for a long time to come. The only redemption I see for him is if he went to Chicago and Rose got healthy all of the sudden. Other than that, I really don't see him ever winning a ring and for a guy of his talent and ability that really is underachieving.

amos1er
05-25-2014, 07:04 AM
Are people really trying to compare Melo to Duncan. SMH.

Just have to ignore people like that. I believe there is a Mark Twain quote about how arguing with idiots makes you dumber or something. That logic definitely applies here.

amos1er
05-25-2014, 07:06 AM
Sure, but right now Melo is the superior player.

Not at all. Duncan is battle tested and is the main cog in one of the finest oiled machines in the history of the league.

Wow... What am I doing... I feel dumber already for having to justify this asinine argument. I'm done.

koreancabbage
05-25-2014, 08:16 AM
Are people really trying to compare Melo to Duncan. SMH.

Just have to ignore people like that. I believe there is a Mark Twain quote about how arguing with idiots makes you dumber or something. That logic definitely applies here.

oh the irony.

bagwell368
05-25-2014, 08:23 AM
Why do ppl consider him a superstar? :facepalm:

Because the first thing a new fan notices is PPG.

Carmelo is elite per the amount of shots he takes per game.

He's an average rebounder.

He's below average -> awful in every other category. Passing and defense being bottom of the barrel. How a "great" player can play like that and thought of as great?

The only reason he shows up OK in some advanced metrics is because they capture offense better than D, and some actually credit players that take more shots - even if they miss...

If he wasn't in NY where the years of hunger for a title has warped the average fans judgement we wouldn't hear nearly as much about him. He's a certified loser.

bagwell368
05-25-2014, 08:32 AM
People who so heavily critique the games of guys like Melo and Iverson RARELY watch their games.

They look at Stat sheets and bring up numbers like FG% and True shooting... but can't look at the games and speak as to why those players play that way.

Looking at the Way Melo plays in the olympics, showcases what he does best... Rebounds, scores... He can be a better passer sure, but when you are passing to guys who are either streaky, not good shooters or not in their prime.
It's really all about who you play with.. Hell, Rondo's assists took a about a 30% hit when Shaq went down...
I'm sure if Melo played with a Howard type his shooting and assists numbers would go up. Because there's a clear option to him...

Melo facing a double team and looking to his left and seeing Felton , to the right and seeing JR or Shump...

I might shoot that too, especailly considering it's probably the higher percentage shot... and at that moment, he is in the positoin his coaches want him to be to suceed the most.

If Melo plays in the Traingle and doesnt' tick up his assists to more than 4 or 5 a game, then we know what's up.

I've watched more than I care to of both. If the game was 1 on 1, it would suit them better. They play head down, generally ignore teammates, force shots, don't care about winning - just their own glorification. Neither made his team better in any consistent manner. Neither adapted or changed.

Pre ESPN dunk/3 PT/highlight mentality they both would have been criticized to a much larger extent - that's not the game folks, that's a subsection of the game. Go watch TD, KG, Walton, Bird, Cheeks, Stockton if you want to see players that know what to do with the ball. Don't blame me and others because you're backing sacks of trash.

koreancabbage
05-26-2014, 11:17 AM
People who so heavily critique the games of guys like Melo and Iverson RARELY watch their games.

They look at Stat sheets and bring up numbers like FG% and True shooting... but can't look at the games and speak as to why those players play that way.

Looking at the Way Melo plays in the olympics, showcases what he does best... Rebounds, scores... He can be a better passer sure, but when you are passing to guys who are either streaky, not good shooters or not in their prime.
It's really all about who you play with.. Hell, Rondo's assists took a about a 30% hit when Shaq went down...
I'm sure if Melo played with a Howard type his shooting and assists numbers would go up. Because there's a clear option to him...

Melo facing a double team and looking to his left and seeing Felton , to the right and seeing JR or Shump...

I might shoot that too, especailly considering it's probably the higher percentage shot... and at that moment, he is in the positoin his coaches want him to be to suceed the most.

If Melo plays in the Traingle and doesnt' tick up his assists to more than 4 or 5 a game, then we know what's up.

and we can say people who are criticizing people who critique these two players just watch these two players only when they play and ignore the other players around them.

Crackadalic
05-26-2014, 12:25 PM
Because the first thing a new fan notices is PPG.

Carmelo is elite per the amount of shots he takes per game.

He's an average rebounder.

He's below average -> awful in every other category. Passing and defense being bottom of the barrel. How a "great" player can play like that and thought of as great?

The only reason he shows up OK in some advanced metrics is because they capture offense better than D, and some actually credit players that take more shots - even if they miss...

If he wasn't in NY where the years of hunger for a title has warped the average fans judgement we wouldn't hear nearly as much about him. He's a certified loser.

How many sf have a career 6 rebounds? Even this year he mostly played 3 and got 8 rebounds

Are you seriously saying his defense is bottom barrel? Look how harden plays defense and look how melo plays defense. Melo straight ups dogs it. Harden has amare defense awareness. Harden still the better player. Last couple years he's more then be ok on defense so stop that nonsense he's bottom barrel because it seems you just look at the box score

The funny thing is he had a career low 2.6 assist last season and won 54 games. Why? Because of the double teams he created and getting the ball out at the right time especially with the 3 point shooters we had

This year he actually got teammates involve but honest to god nobody couldn't hit a damn shot and when everyone was scare to shoot it's "pass the ball to melo" last 7 seconds with being no where near the basket resulting in low% shots. Despite that he still hit a decent 45% clip

His best team was 09 when they lost to the champs and last year when they choke. Every other team had no shot in winning a title

Is carmelo a flawed star? Yes he is. He lacks leadership needed to uplift players, ISO too much and dogs it a lot when he isn't engage.

But I've watch him enough to know he's good enough in this era to be a 1/2 option on a championship team so all this nonsense that it's not possible is just making basketball too complicated

DoMeFavors
05-26-2014, 01:19 PM
Melo touches the ball a lot, others that hold the ball that much with that scoring are like Kobe, LeBron,Durant, Pierce in prime. All those guys could score but also willing to pass get around 5+ assists per game. While Melo is lucky to get 3 in a game every once in a while. His assist numbers should be way up.

slashsnake
05-26-2014, 04:19 PM
Yeah, in most instances these guys are on lottery teams, like Melo was this year, or get eliminated int he first round, like Melo has every year save two seasons.

But sometimes a guy shoots 38% from the floor, leads the league in scoring and takes his team to the finals (Allen Iverson: 2002).

Sure... whatever... the point is that Melo's percentages are decent, but they don't touch the truly great SFs. Do you disagree with that?

Whoa, eliminated in the first round 50 win team is a LOT different than being called done 4 weeks into the season 25 win lottery team. NONE of those guys you had even approached the playoffs once, which Melo has done nearly every year.

And yeah, look at Iverson. It wasn't about the FG%, but rather the ability to create his own shot and create for others. Dikembe Motumbo was their #2 offensive weapon. That team HAD to have scoring and he provided it.

And no, I don't call him a truly great SF. Just a great scorer.

sammyvine
05-26-2014, 04:50 PM
no tema will win with him as their best player

very overrated

Chronz
05-26-2014, 05:28 PM
He was overrated when he was "winning" and underrated now that hes losing. Hate this world

SluggeR
05-26-2014, 05:40 PM
Melo just needs an all around good coach that will hold him accountable and surrounded by a complete team. I could easily see him being Paul PierceX5.0 if what I mentioned happens. People act like Melo has played on a team that was expected to win a championship. He was on some talented Nuggets teams, but George Karl aint bout to win a championship the way he ignores the post and defense.

NBA_Starter
05-26-2014, 05:53 PM
Melo just needs an all around good coach that will hold him accountable and surrounded by a complete team. I could easily see him being Paul PierceX5.0 if what I mentioned happens. People act like Melo has played on a team that was expected to win a championship. He was on some talented Nuggets teams, but George Karl aint bout to win a championship the way he ignores the post and defense.

He really likes Thibs, it could be a match made in Heaven.