PDA

View Full Version : George Hill/Kawhi Leonard trade revisited



rocketfuel
05-22-2014, 06:26 AM
Would the Pacers be deadlier if they had gone with Kawhi, which they were seriously considering instead of going through with that trade for Hill?

GoferKing_
05-22-2014, 07:12 AM
Nope. Only Pop could turn him into a beast such as he is now.

archdevil84
05-22-2014, 07:56 AM
i do think the spurs would be much worse with Ghill instead of leonard

KnicksorBust
05-22-2014, 09:16 AM
i do think the spurs would be much worse with Ghill instead of leonard

Well obviously they built their team with depth at guard and carved out 35 minutes at SF for Leonard. The trade would make no sense to reverse if you were SAS.

I'm curious how the Pacers feel about it... I know Vogel LOVES Hill.

OnePostOnly
05-22-2014, 10:24 AM
great move by spurs

AddiX
05-22-2014, 11:08 AM
Nothing Larry bid does ever gets questioned.

Hill > kawhi
Max contract for hibbert
Max contract for George
Trading granger for a bum
Not trading for Rondo

Hill is hot garbage.

P&GRealist
05-22-2014, 03:25 PM
Lance and Kawhi could have been the 2nd best defensive 2guard/3forward duo in NBA history.


1. MJ/Pip
2. Lance/Kawhi
3. Wade/Bron

FOBolous
05-22-2014, 03:37 PM
Nothing Larry bid does ever gets questioned.

Hill > kawhi
Max contract for hibbert
Max contract for George
Trading granger for a bum
Not trading for Rondo

Hill is hot garbage.

what Larry did is what ANY GM would've done after Hibbert's playoff performance vs Miami and George's universally recognized supposed status as the next up and coming superstar SF. hindsight is 20/20, my friend. Either way, he created a team that won more games than last year's champions and, despite their struggle, is still the team with the league's best chance of unseating Miami.

Granger was redundant on Indiana with George on the team. he was too talented to play off the bench and was never healthy.

SPURSFAN1
05-22-2014, 04:16 PM
We don't know if the Pacers were going to pick Kawhi Leonard. I'm pretty sure they just traded their pick for Hill and the Spurs told them who to pick for the trade. So if the Spurs don't trade with the Pacers, the Pacers might still not even have Kawhi Leonard today.

hugepatsfan
05-22-2014, 04:28 PM
Nothing Larry bid does ever gets questioned.

Hill > kawhi
Max contract for hibbert
Max contract for George
Trading granger for a bum
Not trading for Rondo

Hill is hot garbage.

1.) Yeah, the Leonard for Hill trade looks bad now. But at the time, Hill was a young PG that had shown major potential playing behind Parker. Leonard was a rookie that was getting picked in the late lottery so it's not like he was widely viewed as a star. Bad trade for IND in hindsight, yes. But not something I would call a horrible move by the GM.

2.) He overpaid but it was either that or lose him. Even though he's not a max player they're not a contender without his defense inside. If they didn't give him the max someone else would have and then IND loses their contender status. It's not like they could just go sign another C with that cap space - that's not how the NBA cap works. Can't criticize Bird for this.

3.) Again, can't criticize Bird for this. George to a max deal was a no brainer at the time he signed it. Even today he'd get a max deal probably off of potential. If they didn't sign him they lose their contender status and get stuck in the middle ground which is awful. They had to sign this deal.

4.) Granger isn't that good at this stage so trading him away wasn't a bad call at all. Where they messed up was getting Evan Turner. He just hasn't fit. But on paper, they got good value in the trade. It just didn't work out on the court because of a lack of time to build chemistry.

5.) Rondo doesn't fit their system.

rocketfuel
05-23-2014, 04:10 AM
Indiana was thinking of picking Leonard when Leonard was available because they really liked him and couldn't believe he became available, but they went ahead with the deal. Kawhi is still getting paid his rookie salary.

SPURSFAN1
05-23-2014, 04:56 AM
Indiana was thinking of picking Leonard when Leonard was available because they really liked him and couldn't believe he became available, but they went ahead with the deal. Kawhi is still getting paid his rookie salary.

Can you show me an early quote and not a quote after he blew up?

bjornchon
05-23-2014, 05:04 AM
Kawhi is still getting paid his rookie salary.http://isoftwaresale.com/5ce6.jpg

JasonJohnHorn
05-23-2014, 06:30 AM
They needed a point guard and already have Granger and George. Why would you need Leonard? Doesn't make sense.


"Let's have three small forwards and bring in a D-League point guard. That sounds great."

The trade made perfect sense.

rocketfuel
05-23-2014, 06:48 AM
Can you show me an early quote and not a quote after he blew up?

http://grantland.com/features/analyzing-kawhi-leonard-george-hill-trade-2013-conference-finals/

"The Pacers swallowed hard and agreed. There was still one problem left: Indiana loved Kawhi Leonard. The Pacers had him about no. 5 or no. 6 on their draft board, and they thought very hard about scrapping the Hill deal and just taking a guy they never expected to be alive at no. 15. “When Kawhi ended up being there, we had to think about taking him,” Morway says. "

D-Leethal
05-23-2014, 09:46 AM
Nothing Larry bid does ever gets questioned.

Hill > kawhi
Max contract for hibbert
Max contract for George
Trading granger for a bum
Not trading for Rondo

Hill is hot garbage.

When you win 60+ games, get the 1 seed, go to your second straight ECF and have a chance to make the Finals as a result of said moves, you usually don't get flack for them.

MonroeFAN
05-23-2014, 09:50 AM
Yeah really, the Pacers are currently tied in the ECF with a team who has won back to back championships.

What more could they be doing right now?

ManRam
05-23-2014, 10:28 AM
Nope. Only Pop could turn him into a beast such as he is now.

Well, that's certainly possible, but I don't think you can prove that. PG and Lance have grown REALLY well in Indy. They've developed their guys pretty darn well too :shrug:

No doubt Pops helps, a ton...but I just don't think it's THAT black and white.

AddiX
05-23-2014, 11:11 AM
When you win 60+ games, get the 1 seed, go to your second straight ECF and have a chance to make the Finals as a result of said moves, you usually don't get flack for them.

THat sounds nice and all, but there here to win a ring now, no one cares about that stuff.

If they want to be the next version if the Bulls, a team that's good but never makes that next step, that's fine, but IMO thats failure.

ATX
05-23-2014, 11:15 AM
When you win 60+ games, get the 1 seed, go to your second straight ECF and have a chance to make the Finals as a result of said moves, you usually don't get flack for them.

60+ is incorrect. Indiana won 56 games this season, and I believe 49 last season.

2-ONE-5
05-23-2014, 11:20 AM
Lance and Kawhi could have been the 2nd best defensive 2guard/3forward duo in NBA history.


1. MJ/Pip
2. Lance/Kawhi
3. Wade/Bron

there prob is no Lance if they have Leonard

D-Leethal
05-23-2014, 12:18 PM
THat sounds nice and all, but there here to win a ring now, no one cares about that stuff.

If they want to be the next version if the Bulls, a team that's good but never makes that next step, that's fine, but IMO thats failure.

I think they have already surpassed the Bulls. Bulls were never even competitive against Miami in a playoff series, Indy has pushed them to the brink and are currently tied. If your idea of "good moves" is a championship and nothing less, than Larry Bird sucks along with 95% of the NBA. I think the way Bird built that team is as impressive as I've seen without a surefire lottery superstar as I've seen since the Chauncey-Rip-Wallace Pistons. If you don't have a top 5 superstar, get a pack of scrappy defensive goons and compete that way. I personally love it.

AddiX
05-23-2014, 12:42 PM
I think they have already surpassed the Bulls. Bulls were never even competitive against Miami in a playoff series, Indy has pushed them to the brink and are currently tied. If your idea of "good moves" is a championship and nothing less, than Larry Bird sucks along with 95% of the NBA. I think the way Bird built that team is as impressive as I've seen without a surefire lottery superstar as I've seen since the Chauncey-Rip-Wallace Pistons. If you don't have a top 5 superstar, get a pack of scrappy defensive goons and compete that way. I personally love it.

I'm not saying there a failure of a team.

But not making the finals would mean they didn't improve from last season. Getting a guy like rondo, keeping a guy like granger, or having a guy like kawi would of greatly improved those chances.

If they don't makemit to the finals are we really going to praise them? I don't think so.

Super.
05-23-2014, 01:16 PM
win win trade imo

D-Leethal
05-23-2014, 01:21 PM
I'm not saying there a failure of a team.

But not making the finals would mean they didn't improve from last season. Getting a guy like rondo, keeping a guy like granger, or having a guy like kawi would of greatly improved those chances.

If they don't makemit to the finals are we really going to praise them? I don't think so.

If they weren't going up against the HOF team in Miami each year I would buy that. They definitely improved this year, but it takes a freakin' lot to beat Miami. I don't consider teams that couldn't beat Jordan's Bulls a failure.

Granger sucks but it was clear he was a major player in that lockerroom. That was definitely a bad trade based on everything that transpired after and the fact that Turner sucks too. I'm not sure where the Rondo stuff is coming from either, you can bring up 29 teams and say "shoulda got Rondo" but Rondo never went anywhere. And George Hill has been big for them - he is not as good as Kawai but they already have George at the 3 and they would be left without a PG. I don't consider that a "L" of a move, it worked out for both teams.

KobeOwnSU
05-23-2014, 01:34 PM
Indiana would have won the ECF last year if they have Leonard.

KobeOwnSU
05-23-2014, 01:36 PM
Spurs are +8.1 when Kawhi Leonard has been on the floor during the playoffs, the highest plus/minus number of any player in the postseason.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2069319-kawhi-leonard-blindsides-okc-thunder-with-monster-game-1-for-spurs

WadeKobe
05-23-2014, 01:37 PM
They needed a point guard and already have Granger and George. Why would you need Leonard? Doesn't make sense.


"Let's have three small forwards and bring in a D-League point guard. That sounds great."

The trade made perfect sense.

I don't criticize the move, but let's not say they were stuck with Granger and D-League PG.

They had Stephensen and George. They could have easily moved Granger for a decent PG, not as good as Hill, but the team likely would have been better.

Can you imagine small ball with Miami?

Hibbert
Kawhi
George
Stephenson
Decent PG

That Indy team is better than Miami, IMO, especially with Stephenson and George's playmaking abilities... They could go big and cause Miami fits, especially with their shooting...

Hibbert
West
Kawhi
George
Stephensen

I take them over Miami in 7, with no second guessing.

rocketfuel
05-24-2014, 04:30 AM
I don't criticize the move, but let's not say they were stuck with Granger and D-League PG.

They had Stephensen and George. They could have easily moved Granger for a decent PG, not as good as Hill, but the team likely would have been better.

Can you imagine small ball with Miami?

Hibbert
Kawhi
George
Stephenson
Decent PG

That Indy team is better than Miami, IMO, especially with Stephenson and George's playmaking abilities... They could go big and cause Miami fits, especially with their shooting...

Hibbert
West
Kawhi
George
Stephensen

I take them over Miami in 7, with no second guessing.

Good point, they'd be able to get a decent point guard moving Granger.

Plus a rotation of Kawhi/George/Stephenson at the wing positions would be a juggernaut...it's literally no letdown...all 3 are athletic and Kawhi looks like he might have the most upside of the 3....he's just getting started. Also, with Kawhi, his salary is a lot less than Hill's, they would have had more room to get another player or two.

SPURSFAN1
05-24-2014, 04:41 AM
Pop is grooming Kawhi to take over when Tim and Manu retire. He is going to be a beast when he is let go off the leash. The thing is, we don't know how Kawhi would have developed under the Pacers. The Spurs have the best shooting coach in the league. They have the best coaching staff. Pop and 3 future HOf players are taking him under their wings. I don't see that same atmosphere at Indiana.

WadeKobe
05-25-2014, 07:51 AM
Pop is grooming Kawhi to take over when Tim and Manu retire. He is going to be a beast when he is let go off the leash. The thing is, we don't know how Kawhi would have developed under the Pacers. The Spurs have the best shooting coach in the league. They have the best coaching staff. Pop and 3 future HOf players are taking him under their wings. I don't see that same atmosphere at Indiana.

I don't disagree, but look at Stephensen and George. Both are top5 players at their positions.

Kawhi is well on his way to eventually being a superstar. Would that be the case in IND? I don't think so. I do, however, think Leonard/George/Stephensen would be an amazing core, especially with West and Hibbert under contract.

IndyRealist
05-25-2014, 02:16 PM
If you looked at this trade at the time, it was a tough but reasonable trade for Indiana. The Pacers had a former all-star in Granger who the team was built around, a future all-star in Paul George, and an inconsistent Darren Collison at PG. No one, except maybe Bird, knew that Lance Stephenson was going to be good. No one knew Granger would lose a year and a half to injury. And the Pacers had just made the playoffs for the first time since the Brawl team was disbanded.

There was simply no way the Pacers, at the time, could have gambled on drafting a high upside player to replace Granger, and risk falling back out of the playoffs. Instead they got a combo they liked, who solidified their bench and eventually displaced their starter. The big knock on Leonard was that he didn't have the range to play SF. Obviously he worked hard to prove that wrong, but there was a real thought that he was limited offensively.

In retrospect, knowing that Leonard would develop a 3pt shot and Granger would go down, it would have been a no brainer to keep Leonard instead of trading him. I thought the Pacers were going to land another gem that people passed on (like Paul George and Danny Granger). Assuming Leonard impressed his rookie year, you could trade high on Granger (before he gets injured). But trading Granger was never the plan (until the team got desperate), and having Leonard come off the bench behind two entrenched starters probably wouldn't have helped his development.

rocketfuel
05-25-2014, 04:29 PM
The real question is how good the Pacers would be if they had gone with Leonard, which they were badly tempted to do... like yesterday, when George was in foul trouble you bring in Leonard. Right now, it seems like Kawhi is the reason the Spurs look so devastating and rejuvenated. He can cover a lot defensively and provide a lot of energy on offense, allow some of his more one dimensional teammates to just play their roles rather than stretch out of their comfort zone....since he can do so many things on the floor.

I don't think it would hurt his development at all...in fact he would fit in nicely especially with his personality....quiet guy, works his butt off, doesn't rock the boat. Talent rises to the top and it would be hard to notice that this tall athletic guy is a two way player. Plus, he'd be able to full starter's minutes. He can take minutes when George goes to the bench or give Stephenson some rest. If they go small ball, he and George would give the Pacers an edge on most teams. And George and Stephenson would be guys he can learn from. I think Indiana is a fine organization and good fertile ground for players to thrive.... it's more of "what if" thing if you have Kawhi's talent of how much better their defense would be...

jacquewho?
05-26-2014, 09:41 AM
This is my what-if scenario I like to think about...

In 2009, the Indiana Pacers selected Tyler Hansbrough with the 13th pick. It was well known that the next person Larry Bird wanted to take if Tyler wasn't available was Ty Lawson.

Let's say Pacers take Ty Lawson. Then, we don't need to make that George Hill trade. Still draft Leonard and have him develop behind Granger...

So what if today the Pacers had a starting 5 of Lawson - George - Leonard - West - Hibbert with Stephenson as your 6th man?

:drool:

IndyRealist
05-26-2014, 10:38 AM
This is my what-if scenario I like to think about...

In 2009, the Indiana Pacers selected Tyler Hansbrough with the 13th pick. It was well known that the next person Larry Bird wanted to take if Tyler wasn't available was Ty Lawson.

Let's say Pacers take Ty Lawson. Then, we don't need to make that George Hill trade. Still draft Leonard and have him develop behind Granger...

So what if today the Pacers had a starting 5 of Lawson - George - Leonard - West - Hibbert with Stephenson as your 6th man?

:drool:

They didn't trade for George Hill to be a PG though, he just fell into that position. They traded for him to be a combo off the bench. Likely they still would have made the trade and we would have ended up with

Lawson-Stephenson-George-West-Hibbert with Hill as 6th man.

Personally, I'd settle for just having Hansbrough. We seriously lack scrappiness right now.

waveycrockett
05-26-2014, 12:21 PM
That was obviously a terrible trade but Leonard is ridiculously over hyped. A solid player for sure but is basically a glorified Jimmy Butler. People talk about him like he will be a future allstar are crazy.

kdspurman
05-26-2014, 12:22 PM
That was obviously a terrible trade but Leonard is ridiculously over hyped. A solid player for sure but is basically a glorified Jimmy Butler. People talk about him like he will be a future allstar are crazy.

That's certainly your opinion. But calling it crazy, is crazy. I think most that actually watch him on a consistent basis realize his upside.

IndyRealist
05-26-2014, 12:43 PM
That was obviously a terrible trade but Leonard is ridiculously over hyped. A solid player for sure but is basically a glorified Jimmy Butler. People talk about him like he will be a future allstar are crazy.

Popovich is crazy now?

dalton749
05-26-2014, 12:46 PM
dumb trade, was at the time
i wanted the raps to take him a 5 but i didnt know anything about valanciunas at the time

AddiX
05-26-2014, 03:38 PM
That was obviously a terrible trade but Leonard is ridiculously over hyped. A solid player for sure but is basically a glorified Jimmy Butler. People talk about him like he will be a future allstar are crazy.

You know, you might be right, I'll have to consider this statement next time I watch kawhi.

NBA_Starter
05-26-2014, 05:39 PM
It still looks like it favors the Spurs but what good would having him and Paul George do? Someone would have eventually been traded.

SPURSFAN1
05-26-2014, 06:01 PM
KD i saw ur gif. hahahaahahaha I yelled so load at this blatant chit. We win the next one for sure though.


Pop called Sugar K the future of the Spurs. I don't even think I've ever heard him say that about any other player. He knows Kawhi is a special player.

OaklandsFinest
05-26-2014, 06:04 PM
Lance and Kawhi could have been the 2nd best defensive 2guard/3forward duo in NBA history.


1. MJ/Pip
2. Lance/Kawhi
3. Wade/Bron

Paul George > Kawaii Leonard. Love both but lets not forget Paul George does have a couple 39 point games this playoffs. BTW Heat Fan and Warrior fan, but ya gotta respect Paul George.

D-Leethal
05-26-2014, 06:11 PM
I have been seeing it more than previous years, but I don't see enough off-the-dribble foundation to Kawai's game to ever become a bonafide all star and top gun on a playoff team. He can feed off Timmy and Tony but can he do the feeding once they are no longer there?

SPURSFAN1
05-26-2014, 06:24 PM
I have been seeing it more than previous years, but I don't see enough off-the-dribble foundation to Kawai's game to ever become a bonafide all star and top gun on a playoff team. He can feed off Timmy and Tony but can he do the feeding once they are no longer there?

You just don't watch a lot of Spurs Basketball. You don't really understand what they're doing. Let me explain what they do to win games. Tim tony and manu are way better than Kawhi at scoring. Why force kawhi to score when you have 3 better players to do that job. Kawhi is a great rebounder for his position. He can go for rebounds better. It's better to let him get a rebound if we need one. Pretend Kawhi shoots a midrange jumper and misses. Tony is not going to rebound the ball if it misses as great as if Kawhi and tony switch roles. Manu and Tony don't usually play at the same time because both players are gifted offensively. It's not that Kawhi is bad at scoring, but that manu and tony are just too great at scoring or getting the offense going. It's not about a player being bad at something, but that everything works better if you do it a certain way and maximize the ability to win.

D-Leethal
05-26-2014, 07:06 PM
You just don't watch a lot of Spurs Basketball. You don't really understand what they're doing. Let me explain what they do to win games. Tim tony and manu are way better than Kawhi at scoring. Why force kawhi to score when you have 3 better players to do that job. Kawhi is a great rebounder for his position. He can go for rebounds better. It's better to let him get a rebound if we need one. Pretend Kawhi shoots a midrange jumper and misses. Tony is not going to rebound the ball if it misses as great as if Kawhi and tony switch roles. Manu and Tony don't usually play at the same time because both players are gifted offensively. It's not that Kawhi is bad at scoring, but that manu and tony are just too great at scoring or getting the offense going. It's not about a player being bad at something, but that everything works better if you do it a certain way and maximize the ability to win.

lol, thanks for that chief. Don't tell me what I watch or understand. Spurs are my second favorite team in the league. I don't need you to explain how basketball works. I never said he was bad at scoring. I don't see him as a #1 option type of shot creator and playmaker. I don't see the requisite foundation to become that type of top gun on a playoff team. The role a player is currently asked to play doesn't sway my view on a players skillset.

SPURSFAN1
05-26-2014, 07:16 PM
lol, thanks for that chief. Don't tell me what I watch or understand. Spurs are my second favorite team in the league. I don't need you to explain how basketball works. I never said he was bad at scoring. I don't see him as a #1 option type of shot creator and playmaker. I don't see the requisite foundation to become that type of top gun on a playoff team. The role a player is currently asked to play doesn't sway my view on a players skillset.

I don't care if they're your favorite team. I watch around 90% of their games. He's the third best player on one of the best teams in the NBA. He is better than a lot of these chucking first options that go nowhere.

kdspurman
05-26-2014, 08:05 PM
I have been seeing it more than previous years, but I don't see enough off-the-dribble foundation to Kawai's game to ever become a bonafide all star and top gun on a playoff team. He can feed off Timmy and Tony but can he do the feeding once they are no longer there?

He does it every now and then, so he's shown he is capable. Like games when TD/TP/Manu sit out. But for now, he plays within the system. But he has shown he has the ability. Ball handling is something he will need to work on next for sure. I like the Pippen comparisons that I've seen from some basketball heads, just in terms of what he brings to the game.

I think Pop will slowly let him take on more and more responsibilities. This is his 3rd year, but in reality, it's his 2nd full season. The first year was the lockout year, he didn't have a training camp or a lot of time to really get the trust of the players/Pop. So I kind of view this as his 2nd year, and he's made tremendous improvements.

kdspurman
05-26-2014, 08:06 PM
KD i saw ur gif. hahahaahahaha I yelled so load at this blatant chit. We win the next one for sure though.


Pop called Sugar K the future of the Spurs. I don't even think I've ever heard him say that about any other player. He knows Kawhi is a special player.

It was a horrendous call. I don't know how you wait to see if it goes in to see if it goes in. And what's crazy is, that's how Patty always shoots. He didn't do that crap on purpose. Whatever... Looking forward to tomorrow.

D-Leethal
05-26-2014, 09:10 PM
I don't care if they're your favorite team. I watch around 90% of their games. He's the third best player on one of the best teams in the NBA. He is better than a lot of these chucking first options that go nowhere.

Thats all well and good but every team in the league needs a first option the same way they need guys like Kawai and the first options are the guys making max money for a reason. I think Kawai is great, I just don't see him being the de-facto centerpiece for a winning team. He needs a chucking first option to play off of and do what he does best. I am not closing the door on him ever being that guy, I already said I saw some strides this year, I just don't think he has enough of it engrained into the foundation of his game to ever become "that guy". You don't need to stick up for him like I just talked **** about your grandmother, I love Kawai and love everything about the Spurs.

tmacsc2
05-26-2014, 10:00 PM
George hill is so god damn bad!