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killthesux
05-21-2014, 03:01 PM
Hello Everyone. Welcome to the NBA All-time redraft playoffs. These will be a battle between two made up teams from our host of GM’s in to see who reigns superiority over all of basketball. There is a slight twist in this All-time: each team has a starter from each decade. Please read the write-ups and vote for who you think would win in a 7 game series.

Santa Monica

PG: Chauncey Billups || Byron Scott || Damian Lillard
SG: Drazen Petrovic || Michael Cooper
SF: Scottie Pippen|| Kiki Vandeweghe
PF: Horace Grant|| A.C. Green || Tom Heinsohn
C: Moses Malone || P.J. Brown

vs.

Skaro

PG Gary Payton / Jo Jo White / Andre Miller
SG Manu Ginobili / Raja Bell
SF Kevin Durant / Mike Miller
PF Willis Reed / Sam Perkins / Paul Millsap
C Ben Wallace / Tyson Chandler



Skaro Write Up

PG Gary Payton (38) / Jo Jo White (10) / Andre Miller
SG Manu Ginobili (36) / Raja Bell (12)
SF Kevin Durant (28) / Raja Bell (10) / Mike Miller (10)
PF Willis Reed (36) / Kevin Durant (12) / Sam Perkins / Paul Millsap
C Ben Wallace (40) / Tyson Chandler(8)

Offensive Strategy
Moses Malone was many things, but a great paint defender he was not. Malone and Grant are 116th and 127th in career BLK% respectively, and we seriously doubt their ability to defend the rim 40+ minutes per game. Much of what we do as a basketball team will emphasize spacing the floor and attacking the basket with our rim penetrators (Payton, Ginobili and Durant). Santa Montica will undoubtedly try to put Pippen and Cooper on Durant, so we’ll constantly be looking to run picks with whoever else is on the floor to switch the defender on KD. Santa Montica will preach about Pippen’s ability to stop Durant (unlikely seeing as how Durant has regularly torched every team he’s ever faced in the playoffs and is 8th in career postseason WS/48 and postseason PER). But Pippen will not and cannot be on Durant 40 minutes every night, and they put themselves at a serious disservice by having two atrocious perimeter defenders (Kiki and Petrovic) getting substantial minutes every game. If one or both of those guys is on the bench, Santa Montica’s perimeter D will get torched by Manu and Durant. We also plan to go small ball quite a bit and play Durant 10-15 minutes at PF to take advantage against slower bigs who are not significant threats offensively (neither Grant or Green averaged more than 15.1 PPG in a season). We’ll look to get out in transition, as well, with Payton and athletic running mates who can take advantage of his alley oop passing skills against a bigger, slower front court in Grant and Malone. Reed’s excellent mid-range game will be key to pulling Grant (Santa Montica’s best post defender) away from the paint. We also have a luxury offensively that few teams have in that there are five guys on our roster who shot 36% or better from the 3-point line over their careers and eight guys who can consistently knock down a 3-point shot. Finding the guy with the hot hand and feeding him will be key and it’s worth noting that Santa Montica’s secret weapon defensively (Cooper) played in an era where opposing offenses were far less reliant on the 3-pointer.

Defensive Strategy
We look at SG and C as the two key positions to watch on defense. Although Chauncey Billups is always a threat, he’s not going to use his size and strength at PG to bully the 6’4”Gary Payton (1x DPOY, 9x 1st Team All-Defense). And we don’t view Horace Grant or A.C. Green as significant threats offensively as both guys boasted career USG% around 15%. At SG, the question is whether Petrovic or Cooper will be on the floor. If it’s Petrovic, Manu will torch him on multiple possessions. If it’s Cooper, we can use Manu to double team penetrating wings, open shooters or Malone in the low post. Unlike most teams in this game, Santa Montica is one of the few teams that have really only one legitimate No. 1 threat on offense, Moses Malone, who will be the guy that receives much of our attention. With Ben Wallace in the paint to anchor the defense (4x DPOY, 6x All-NBA), that gives us a great start. Wallace performed particularly well defensively against slower, smaller low post players and Moses at 6’10” won’t just be able to overpower Big Ben. Moses’ biggest strength may be offensive rebounding, but defensive rebounding is also one of Wallace’s strong points (11th in career DRB%), so Moses isn’t going to feast on his regular diet of put backs offensively. He’s going to have to work for it. And we plan to double him. A LOT. For a man who received a ton of praise for his dominant low post performance, his career TO% (14.6) is particularly high and his career AST% (5.9) is especially low. So if he catches it on the low post within seven or eight feet of the basket, we’re going to double with the nearest defender and do whatever it takes to create a turnover. Reed will be especially useful in this regard, as leaving Grant or Green open from the perimeter is not a significant threat. We’re going to force Pippen and Petrovic to beat us, but we’ve got a secret weapon in that battle: Raja Bell. By playing Durant several minutes every game at the 4, it allows the tenacious Bell (2x All-Defense) to shadow Pippen for 10-12 minutes a night at the 3. He’ll also get some minutes defending Petrovic whenever Manu and Cooper are out of the lineup.



Why Skaro wins
Consider that Santa Montica is one of the few teams in this game to start really only one guy that played as a legitimate No. 1 on a championship caliber basketball team. Pippen proved in 93-94 that he could not carry a team offensively and, despite his reputation as a clutch shooter, and Billups never once led those Pistons teams in scoring and was arguably the second best player behind Ben Wallace (who happens to be on Skaro). Meanwhile our roster boasts three guys who were unquestioned No. 1s on teams that played in the NBA Finals in Durant, Payton and Reed, not to mention Manu Ginobili, arguably the second most important player on the 2000s Spurs teams and one of the most efficient wings in the history of the game (13th in career WS/48). By constantly doubling Moses, we effectively take away the entire focal point of their team, while they could try whatever defensive strategy they like and still not take away all the elite scorers in our starting five. Their so-so post defense in a game like this is a weakness we plan to exploit and they don’t have enough decent perimeter defenders on the roster to have Manu and Durant covered for 40 minutes a night. Both of these teams are obviously full of championship talent, but don’t be fooled by the number of rings Santa Montica’s players wear. The rings of Scott, Green and Grant don’t hold the same weight as the rings of Reed, Manu and Wallace. And, yes, they have great defenders in Cooper and Pippen, but our defensive stars (Wallace and Payton) are every bit as dominant defensively, if not moreso.

This will be a close series, but the number of offensive weapons at our disposal, our ability to stretch the floor and our versatility on the defensive end wins this series for Skaro.

Skaro in 7



Skaro has Home Court advantage

The_Jamal
05-21-2014, 04:05 PM
Wasn't this supposed to up Thursday????

KnicksorBust
05-21-2014, 04:17 PM
No writeup for Santa Monica? :eek:

mightybosstone
05-21-2014, 04:20 PM
Wasn't this supposed to up Thursday????

:shrug: Matter said Wednesday in the lounge when you asked him a few days ago. I assumed they were going up today. Also, he posted this in the lounge a couple of days before that:


(1) Los Santos vs (4) Des Plaines
(2) Boise vs (3) Rochestor

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(1) Skaro vs (4) Santa Monica
(2) Winterfell vs (3) San Jose

Matchups for Skaro vs Santa Monica and Boise vs Rochester are GOING TO BE GOING UP WEDNESDAY

OTHER TWO MATCHUPS GOING UP FRIDAY!

SEND YOUR WRITEUPS TO KTS AND MATTER.

KnicksorBust
05-21-2014, 04:32 PM
I know I'd at least one a shot at defending my team so I will give Santa Monica a chance to rebuttal Skaro's writeup before voting. Very convincing opening arguments though. Skaro was #1 in my PRs for a reason.

mightybosstone
05-21-2014, 04:33 PM
C'mon people. It's been up for an hour and a half and we've got 2 votes? You can do better than that.

KnicksorBust
05-21-2014, 04:45 PM
I would predict a 12-6 vote but with PSK/Jam you would hope a good debate will get going.

Ebbs
05-21-2014, 04:56 PM
I'll wait til they respond. I won't read MBT's arguments until then either.

Pippen on Durant and Ben on Moses. Whoever's #1 option will be less bothered will probably get my vote.

Ebbs
05-21-2014, 04:56 PM
I hope it's a tie with five minutes left so I can be the tie breaker aha

KnicksorBust
05-21-2014, 05:09 PM
I'll wait til they respond. I won't read MBT's arguments until then either.

Pippen on Durant and Ben on Moses. Whoever's #1 option will be less bothered will probably get my vote.

That would make sense if you think Payton-Manu-Reed is equal to Billups-Drazen-Ho Grant...


I hope it's a tie with five minutes left so I can be the tie breaker aha

One of the redrafts I ran I had to break a tie. It's not as fun as it sounds.

PatsSoxKnicks
05-21-2014, 06:03 PM
Well we seem to already be at a disadvantage with no write-up. Thought this would go up a bit later so I could get one in. But I'll address why we'll win here:

1) Skaro claims to have a ton of championship experience but really, it pales in comparison to Santa Monica's. In total, Santa Monica has 30+ championships (not to mention 30+ all-defensive teams) on our team. However, we're fine focusing on the starters- where Skaro has a total of 7 ships (including the 1 GP won while he was 100 years old and clearly ring chasing) while Santa Monica boasts 12 ships in their starting lineup with another player Michael Cooper who will get significant minutes adding another 5 ships to the total. Simply put, Skaro is thoroughly outclassed when it comes to championships and defense.

2) As I mentioned above, Santa Monica has over 30 all-defensive teams on it's roster with perhaps the GOAT wing defender in Scottie Pippen and another DPOY in Michael Cooper. Our perimeter defense is suffocating. Likewise, Horace Grant made 4 all-defensive teams and was clearly a great defender in his own right. And Moses Malone adds another 2 all-defensive teams as well including a 1st-team all-defense in the famed 83 Sixers run where they stomped on everyone.

Also in regards to Skaro's claim that Moses isn't a rim protecting center, they're grasping at straws. In his 82-83 ship run, he led the playoffs in defensive win shares and blocked 2 shots a game while averaging 1.5 steals as well. That isn't that far off from the 2.4 Ben Wallace averaged in his prime 04 ship run.

Finally, Moses Malone is guarding Ben Wallace, a complete non-option on offense. Santa Monica won't be afraid to leave him and double team Reed, GP, Durant or whoever. And when you consider that our perimeter defenders might be the greatest combination ever assembled, Skaro will have a lot of difficulty scoring.

3) Offensive Philosophy- We'll run the Triangle, with Moses being our Shaq, Pippen being our Pippen, Horace Grant being our Horace Grant, Petrovic being our 3 point shooter ala Steve Kerr or Derek Fisher and Billups being our playmaking scoring guard.

4) The Billups-Payton matchup is more even then you think. While GP provides amazing defense, Billups is no slouch either and unlike GP, Billups actually provides excellent spacing (take GP's 3 year prime or his career 3pt% and neither is that great). Additionally, if you look at the 3- year peaks:
GP: PER of 22.9 and 3-year WS total of 37.4
Billups: PER of 22.8 and 3-year WS total of 40.4

Additionally Billups actually has a Finals MVP. PS- the assertion that Ben Wallace was a bigger contributor is proven false when you see Billups had more playoff WS in 04 and a higher PER. In fact, Billups led the 04 team in playoff win shares.

5) Pippen on Durant- Yes, Durant will be guarded by arguably the GOAT wing defender. Naturally he'll be slowed down and for Skaro to think Pippen won't slow down Durant is a disrespect to Pippen. Let's keep in mind, Durant has been slowed down by the likes of Tony Allen and CP3 for a quarter and we're to believe Scottie Pippen, the GOAT wing defender won't slow him down?

Additionally, Durant is a good defender but not great in an all-time sense and we see Pippen being able to exploit Durant on that end.

6) Moses vs. Ben Wallace- lol. Ben is a great defender but Moses averaged 30+ ppg in his peak and he's gone up with the best of them in terms of Centers. This is a guy who used to routinely crush KAJ and we're to believe Ben Wallace will slow him down? Additionally, unlike Durant above, Moses actually knows what it takes to get a championship. Moses is a top 12 player of all-time and you simply aren't slowing him down no matter who the defender is. Unlike Durant, he knows the goods required to win a championship.

7) Spacing- The spacing on Santa Monica is excellent with one of the most deadly shooters in Petrovic, another 40%+ 3pt shooter at times in Billups and even Pippen was an above average 3-pt shooter from 95-97 with a 3-year peak of 36.4% from 3. With the beastly abilities of Moses in the post, Skaro won't be able to double without letting Santa Monica's deadly shooters kill them.

8) Our bench is better and has more championship experience. Scott, Green, Cooper, Kiki and PJ Brown bring a very well rounded and talented bench to this matchup. Scott, Green and Cooper were members of those showtime Lakers so you KNOW they won't feel the pressures of playoff basketball. And heck, even Damien Lillard has shown he has ice veins (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2GJ2PwXQ4E). Finally, Kiki will be allowed to do what he does best- score. With all the championship experience oozing all around him, he'll fall in line and bring excellent scoring of Santa Monica's bench.

Additionally, Scott, Lillard and even Cooper (from 86-89, 37% 3-pt shooter) can shoot 3s while not being completely one-dimensional like Bell and Miller are for Skaro. Cooper was also an underrated playmaker averaging 5.6 assists per game in a 3 year stretch from 84-86.

More to come...

PatsSoxKnicks
05-21-2014, 06:08 PM
I'll wait til they respond. I won't read MBT's arguments until then either.

Pippen on Durant and Ben on Moses. Whoever's #1 option will be less bothered will probably get my vote.

Pippen's a greater wing defender than Ben is a post defender. In the sense that Pippen is widely regarded as the GOAT wing defender while Ben is not anyone's top post defender (or even top 5 possibly). So in that sense, we're throwing the better defender at their top player.

Also, Moses has won a championship before, he knows what it takes to win. Is Durant there yet? He's got no jewelry and we've seen the likes of Tony Allen bother him. So what happens when you put the GOAT wing defender Pippen on him PLUS another former DPOY in Michael Cooper on him? He'll get frustrated and there is no doubt, he puts up numbers worse than he put up vs. Tony Allen (44% overall, 32% from 3 vs. TA).

PatsSoxKnicks
05-21-2014, 06:11 PM
That would make sense if you think Payton-Manu-Reed is equal to Billups-Drazen-Ho Grant...


What about the benches? Also, as I pointed out above, Billups-Payton is far closer to equal than anyone realizes. Obviously Payton has had the lengthy career but Billups at his peak had the numbers just as good as GP. Offensively, Billups also provided the spacing that GP doesn't.

But anyways, Santa Monica clearly has an advantage on the bench. Guys like Raja Bell and Mike Miller simply don't compare to Scott, Kiki, Cooper, Green or yes even Damian Lillard (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2GJ2PwXQ4E)

BTW, MBT, please click those Lillard links...

PatsSoxKnicks
05-21-2014, 06:22 PM
Skaro's write-up: "We're going to force Pippen and Petrovic to beat us".

How did that work out for all of the Bulls opponents who thought the same thing? Pippen is our #2, just like he was on arguably the greatest dynasty in the modern era. If you want to let Pippen beat you, as all the Bulls opponents know, he will.

PatsSoxKnicks
05-21-2014, 06:28 PM
Also, if Skaro wants to double team Moses, we have excellent shooters out on the wings. Petrovic is a career 43% shooter from 3 and Billups has numerous seasons where he shot over 40% from 3 including a 9-year peak of 40% from 3 from 04-12. Finally, as I mentioned before, Pippen was also an above average 3pt shooter from 95-97 shooting 36.4% in that 3-year span, which also was around his peak. So no matter who Skaro doubles Moses with, we have 3 capable 3-pt shooters with even more on our bench in Kiki (led the league in 3-pt% one year), Scott, Lillard and even Cooper.

As for doubling off Horace, he's capable of hitting that mid-range J and can no doubt make Skaro pay for doubling Moses.

Ebbs
05-21-2014, 06:30 PM
That would make sense if you think Payton-Manu-Reed is equal to Billups-Drazen-Ho Grant...


I don't think it's that simple. I feel like Payton loses a lot of his value if he's not being tasked defensively with an elite player. Is Payton a very good all around player sure. But what made the glove the glove was the shut down ability. Limiting Jordan in the finals etc. ..

I do beyond hate Petrovic as a starter in this. I'd like to think Cooper plays more minutes not sure though.

I do think Willis Reed would be a problem Grant is a solid defender but if they let KD run the pick and roll and he gets a smaller defender it's going to cause mismatches.

Moses is going to get to sleep on defense. He literally can just coast around the key Big Ben is a big a threat as I am.

One of the redrafts I ran I had to break a tie. It's not as fun as it sounds.

I have no remorse though.


I'm kind of torn.

PatsSoxKnicks
05-21-2014, 06:37 PM
Also, in regards to Horace Grant and Moses Malone, both were beasts on the offensive glass. While Horace's raw numbers may not look like it, he finished top 6 in ORB% in 3 consecutive years in 92-94. And Moses obviously led the league in ORB% 8 different times. So Santa Monica will also look to take advantage on the offensive boards where Skaro will have their hands full with 2 players who boast excellent offensive rebounding numbers and another one in AC Green who is coming off the bench.

PatsSoxKnicks
05-21-2014, 06:40 PM
I have no remorse though.


I'm kind of torn.

We're starting Petrovic to balance the lineups a bit so that when Cooper plays, he's playing with Kiki and we aren't stuck with no good defenders out there. However, if the situation calls for it at the end of the game, we have no problems putting Cooper-Pippen at the end of the game so it's impossible for Skaro's wing players to get any shots off.

PatsSoxKnicks
05-21-2014, 06:43 PM
Also, keep in mind guys- Santa Monica has over 30 championships on their team and over 30 all-defensive teams on their team. Does Skaro even compare to that? And what wins ships? Defense and well ships.

The_Jamal
05-21-2014, 06:48 PM
Few things to piggyback off PSK.

-Skaro is playing 4 on 5 against the one of the best defensive teams in the game. Durant does not get a rest this series. Manu gets to see 25+Mpg of Cooper. GP We're very comfortable letting DPOY Michael Cooper, who guarded the likes of Jordan and Bird, getting 10-15 minutes on him per game when Pippen needs a break.

Are you actually joking, saying Santa Monica will get torched defensively on the perimeter? Cooper or Pippen will always be in the game. That in itself makes our perimeter defensive above average.

-So the plan is to double off Cooper? fine! You're letting a 38% 3pt shooter and a guard who averaged 5 APG in his prime get free looks at the basket. He's got offensive skills to burn you if you leave him alone. Ben Wallace on the other hand can be defended with a chair. And his only redeeming quality, offensive rebounding, is nullified by Moses rebounded.

The same goes for Horace Grant, who you are wrongfully throwing under the bus. Since when did 14 PPG on 58 TS% mean you can leave him open? I don't know about you, but I'm fine letting Grant getting open looks until the cows come home if you choose to double off him. That's a key difference between us and Skaro. Ben Wallace is quite easily the worst offensive starter in the entire redraft. Just has no redeeming qualities. And when you're facing an elite defensive squad like Santa Monica, going 4on5 is not a promising task.

- Chauncey Billups playoff numbers:

With Det (6 seasons, 111 games): .195 WS/48, 57%TS, 19.2 PER, Finals MVP
With Den (2 seasons, 22 games): .219 WS/48, 64% TS, 22.1 PER

-Gary Payton playoff numbers
with Sea (10 seasons, 94 games): .119 WS/48, 52 TS%, 17.6 PER, No championship

So you can boast all you want about Payton being a "#1 option" but he was an utter failure in the playoffs doing so. Chauncey stepped up when it counts in the playoffs and lead his team as the finals MVP. Sure, Payton might force Chauncey into a tough series offensively, but we also don't rely on Chauncey for all our playmaking with Cooper and Payton as excellent wing playmakers. We want Chauncey in the game to be an elite floor spacer, create when the opportunity presents itself and big hit shots like he's done his whole career.

Durant hasn't won in the playoffs. Payton never won as the man in the playoffs. Santa Monica on the other hand is chalk full of players who stepped up when it counts and won championship rings. Pippen is the greatest #2 option of all time, the exact role he'll be playing here. Moses and Billups both have finals MVPs and stepped up in the playoffs. Grant, Cooper, A.C Green and Byron Scott were role players for some of the greatest teams of all time. They know how to win and how to contribute to winning teams.


Speaking of bench, Santa Monica has a LARGE advantage here as well. Skaro is chalk full of one-dimensional defensive role players. Santa Monica brings elite floor spacing off the bench with Scott and Drazen being 40%+ 3pt shooters, the best 6th man in the game with Kiki Vandeweghe, a 27 PPG dynamic scorer on 61% TS, and toughness/defense from the back-up bigs with AC Green and PJ Brown. Skaro tried to say our starters don't have enough offense (which isn't true), but we also bring a huge offensive punch off the bench with Kiki-Drazen-Byron all getting minutes throughout the series.

The_Jamal
05-21-2014, 06:54 PM
Also, if Skaro wants to double team Moses, we have excellent shooters out on the wings. Petrovic is a career 43% shooter from 3 and Billups has numerous seasons where he shot over 40% from 3 including a 9-year peak of 40% from 3 from 04-12. Finally, as I mentioned before, Pippen was also an above average 3pt shooter from 95-97 shooting 36.4% in that 3-year span, which also was around his peak. So no matter who Skaro doubles Moses with, we have 3 capable 3-pt shooters with even more on our bench in Kiki (led the league in 3-pt% one year), Scott, Lillard and even Cooper.

As for doubling off Horace, he's capable of hitting that mid-range J and can no doubt make Skaro pay for doubling Moses.

This. We might actually prefer if you double Moses and leave our army of elite 3pt shooters open. Billups, Drazen, Scott were all 40+%. Cooper was 38%. Grant scored on fantastic efficiency and had a reliable midrange jumper. Frankly, our team just doesn't miss all that often.

Skaro claiming Pippen is a liability as a #2 is a joke. He only won 6 championships in that same exact role...

PatsSoxKnicks
05-21-2014, 07:03 PM
Also, if Skaro wants to criticize us for Pippen being a liability as a #2 in the same role where he won 6 ships, how about we throw it back at Skaro and ask, who the hell is your #1? Durant? 0 ships. Payton? 0 ships as the #1 or 2 or anything besides a glorified role player/ring chase. Manu? Uh, we all know he's a #2 or 3. Willis Reed? Debatable if he was the #1 option over Walt, in an era where the teams were weaker.

So basically Skaro has no #1 (none of their #1 options have won a ship) while Santa Monica CLEARLY has a #1 in Moses who won a ship with a Finals MVP in dominating fashion. We also have the greatest #2 ever. Whose Skaro's #2 player? A failed #1 option? There's no hierarchy of scoring on Skaro- just a bunch of failed #1s.

KnicksorBust
05-21-2014, 07:12 PM
PSK and JAM going HAM.

KnicksorBust
05-21-2014, 07:15 PM
Sidenote: I watched a ton of Drazen as a kid and he was absolutely filthy on offense.

mightybosstone
05-21-2014, 07:27 PM
1) Skaro claims to have a ton of championship experience but really, it pales in comparison to Santa Monica's. In total, Santa Monica has 30+ championships (not to mention 30+ all-defensive teams) on our team. However, we're fine focusing on the starters- where Skaro has a total of 7 ships (including the 1 GP won while he was 100 years old and clearly ring chasing) while Santa Monica boasts 12 ships in their starting lineup with another player Michael Cooper who will get significant minutes adding another 5 ships to the total. Simply put, Skaro is thoroughly outclassed when it comes to championships and defense.
I addressed this already. Your guys have a lot of rings, but they played secondary roles on some of the greatest teams in NBA history. Cooper, Scott and Green are not Magic or Kareem and Horace Grant and Scottie Pippen are not Michael Jordan. As for All-defensive team numbers, you may have more, but I've got three separate players who won DPOY, two of which happen to defend C, the position played by easily the most important player on your entire team.


2) As I mentioned above, Santa Monica has over 30 all-defensive teams on it's roster with perhaps the GOAT wing defender in Scottie Pippen and another DPOY in Michael Cooper. Our perimeter defense is suffocating. Likewise, Horace Grant made 4 all-defensive teams and was clearly a great defender in his own right. And Moses Malone adds another 2 all-defensive teams as well including a 1st-team all-defense in the famed 83 Sixers run where they stomped on everyone.
Couldn't I just as easily say Payton was the greatest perimeter defender of all-time? It's kind of a subjective statement. One thing you can't argue is that Ben Wallace is vastly better than any post defender on your roster. Also, you failed to mention that Cooper and Pippen are being backed up by two atrocious wing defenders in Petrovic and Kiki.


Also in regards to Skaro's claim that Moses isn't a rim protecting center, they're grasping at straws. In his 82-83 ship run, he led the playoffs in defensive win shares and blocked 2 shots a game while averaging 1.5 steals as well. That isn't that far off from the 2.4 Ben Wallace averaged in his prime 04 ship run.
Of course he led his team in DWS. He's a starting center playing 40 minutes a night. DWS always favors bigs to wings.


Finally, Moses Malone is guarding Ben Wallace, a complete non-option on offense. Santa Monica won't be afraid to leave him and double team Reed, GP, Durant or whoever. And when you consider that our perimeter defenders might be the greatest combination ever assembled, Skaro will have a lot of difficulty scoring.

Wallace will still get his 8-10 points per game on dunks and offensive put backs. He's a horrible offensive player and no one's arguing that, but Moses is not quick enough to leave Wallace to defend a driving Payton and then get back in time to stop the inevitable monster dunk by Wallace.


4) The Billups-Payton matchup is more even then you think. While GP provides amazing defense, Billups is no slouch either and unlike GP, Billups actually provides excellent spacing (take GP's 3 year prime or his career 3pt% and neither is that great). Additionally, if you look at the 3- year peaks:
GP: PER of 22.9 and 3-year WS total of 37.4
Billups: PER of 22.8 and 3-year WS total of 40.4
Billups was a more efficient scorer, but he also had a fare less significant role on the offensive end than Payton, who boasted a 27ish USG% on average over his peak. He also was tasked with regularly guarding the opposing team's best guard.


Additionally Billups actually has a Finals MVP. PS- the assertion that Ben Wallace was a bigger contributor is proven false when you see Billups had more playoff WS in 04 and a higher PER. In fact, Billups led the 04 team in playoff win shares.
Wallace's defensive impact on those Piston teams > Billups offensive impact on those Pistons teams


5) Pippen on Durant- Yes, Durant will be guarded by arguably the GOAT wing defender. Naturally he'll be slowed down and for Skaro to think Pippen won't slow down Durant is a disrespect to Pippen. Let's keep in mind, Durant has been slowed down by the likes of Tony Allen and CP3 for a quarter and we're to believe Scottie Pippen, the GOAT wing defender won't slow him down?
Sample size, brosky. Also, "slowed down" is a bit of an overstatement. Durant still averaged 30/10/3 in that Memphis series on 44% shooting and he COMPLETELY torched the Clippers for 33/10/5 on 47% shooting. If all Pippen can do is get Durant to score 30 points a night on 44% shooting, I'm really not that concerned. Also, you're totally sidestepping the fact that one-third of Durant's minutes will be at PF. How are Grant and Green planning to keep up with Durant?


Additionally, Durant is a good defender but not great in an all-time sense and we see Pippen being able to exploit Durant on that end.
Durant will get the better end of Pippen statistically. And it won't be close. Let's not try to make it seem like this is an even matchup.


6) Moses vs. Ben Wallace- lol. Ben is a great defender but Moses averaged 30+ ppg in his peak and he's gone up with the best of them in terms of Centers. This is a guy who used to routinely crush KAJ and we're to believe Ben Wallace will slow him down? Additionally, unlike Durant above, Moses actually knows what it takes to get a championship. Moses is a top 12 player of all-time and you simply aren't slowing him down no matter who the defender is. Unlike Durant, he knows the goods required to win a championship.
Look at the head-to-head matchups and Malone really only started getting the better of Kareem once Kareem was past his prime defensively.


7) Spacing- The spacing on Santa Monica is excellent with one of the most deadly shooters in Petrovic, another 40%+ 3pt shooter at times in Billups and even Pippen was an above average 3-pt shooter from 95-97 with a 3-year peak of 36.4% from 3. With the beastly abilities of Moses in the post, Skaro won't be able to double without letting Santa Monica's deadly shooters kill them.

Your floor spacing is pretty pedestrian when compared to Skaro. Eight of our 12 players have had stretches where they could consistently hit 3-point shots in their careers. And, hell, if we're only talking peak 3-point shooting, Payton shot 34% or better 3 out of 4 seasons from 98-01. Neither he or Pippen are major threats from beyond the arc.


8) Our bench is better and has more championship experience. Scott, Green, Cooper, Kiki and PJ Brown bring a very well rounded and talented bench to this matchup. Scott, Green and Cooper were members of those showtime Lakers so you KNOW they won't feel the pressures of playoff basketball. And heck, even Damien Lillard has shown he has ice veins (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2GJ2PwXQ4E). Finally, Kiki will be allowed to do what he does best- score. With all the championship experience oozing all around him, he'll fall in line and bring excellent scoring of Santa Monica's bench.
Better? That's debatable. Just because your guys got lucky enough to be the fifth or sixth best player on a few title teams does not make them better. Hell, Jo Jo White played a bigger role on those 70s Celtics teams than Scott, Green or Cooper played on those Showtime Lakers teams. And between Bell, Miller, Perkins, Chandler, we have everything. Elite 3-point shooters. A versatile offensive stretch 4. An elite defensive and rebounding center. Also you completely failed to address how Kiki and Petrovic plan to defend Manu and Durant when they're on the floor. That should be a major concern from your point of view, especially if they're taking away minutes from Copper.


Additionally, Scott, Lillard and even Cooper (from 86-89, 37% 3-pt shooter) can shoot 3s while not being completely one-dimensional like Bell and Miller are for Skaro. Cooper was also an underrated playmaker averaging 5.6 assists per game in a 3 year stretch from 84-86.
One-dimensional is kind of an insult to Miller, who was a pretty damn dangerous, versatile scorer at his peak, boasting a USG% over 21 and averaging 16-18 a game. He's also always been a pretty decent rebounder, defender and playmaker for his position. And Cooper's no better a defender than White, our primary bench playmaker who averaged more than 5 assists per game for six consecutive years in his prime. Miller's also an underrated passer who topped a 20% AST% multiple times in his career.

Greet
05-21-2014, 07:27 PM
PSK, under the right amount of minutes do you believe that Manu could be a #1 scorer?

mightybosstone
05-21-2014, 07:30 PM
Also, in regards to Horace Grant and Moses Malone, both were beasts on the offensive glass. While Horace's raw numbers may not look like it, he finished top 6 in ORB% in 3 consecutive years in 92-94. And Moses obviously led the league in ORB% 8 different times. So Santa Monica will also look to take advantage on the offensive boards where Skaro will have their hands full with 2 players who boast excellent offensive rebounding numbers and another one in AC Green who is coming off the bench.

I addressed this already, man. C'mon, did you even read my write-up? Wallace was 11th all-time in career DRB%. He's not going to feast on his regular buffet of second chance opportunities around the rim. And I'm certainly not concerned about Grant outrebounding Wills freaking Reed, whose career TRB% crushes Grant's and was measured only in the last four years of his career after his peak.

mightybosstone
05-21-2014, 07:34 PM
We're starting Petrovic to balance the lineups a bit so that when Cooper plays, he's playing with Kiki and we aren't stuck with no good defenders out there. However, if the situation calls for it at the end of the game, we have no problems putting Cooper-Pippen at the end of the game so it's impossible for Skaro's wing players to get any shots off.

But how do you plan to balance the minutes? Because there's no way there won't be a time when Manu or Durant don't have poor perimeter defenders on them over the course of every game. ESPECIALLY considering that we plan to go small ball with Durant at the 4 for 10-15 minutes a night (a point you have yet to address). And I welcome you starting Petrovic against Manu. Ginobili will completely torch Petrovic every night and while he's hardly a defensive stopper, he's a pretty damn solid perimeter defender who can and will both Petrovic from time to time and can draw his fair share of offensive fouls.

Matter.
05-21-2014, 07:38 PM
Probably won't vote as this matchup decides who I will have a chance of facing, but it is the best matchup this round

KnicksorBust
05-21-2014, 07:43 PM
I addressed this already. Your guys have a lot of rings, but they played secondary roles on some of the greatest teams in NBA history. Cooper, Scott and Green are not Magic or Kareem and Horace Grant and Scottie Pippen are not Michael Jordan. As for All-defensive team numbers, you may have more, but I've got three separate players who won DPOY, two of which happen to defend C, the position played by easily the most important player on your entire team.


Couldn't I just as easily say Payton was the greatest perimeter defender of all-time? It's kind of a subjective statement. One thing you can't argue is that Ben Wallace is vastly better than any post defender on your roster. Also, you failed to mention that Cooper and Pippen are being backed up by two atrocious wing defenders in Petrovic and Kiki.


Of course he led his team in DWS. He's a starting center playing 40 minutes a night. DWS always favors bigs to wings.


Wallace will still get his 8-10 points per game on dunks and offensive put backs. He's a horrible offensive player and no one's arguing that, but Moses is not quick enough to leave Wallace to defend a driving Payton and then get back in time to stop the inevitable monster dunk by Wallace.


Billups was a more efficient scorer, but he also had a fare less significant role on the offensive end than Payton, who boasted a 27ish USG% on average over his peak. He also was tasked with regularly guarding the opposing team's best guard.


Wallace's defensive impact on those Piston teams > Billups offensive impact on those Pistons teams


Sample size, brosky. Also, "slowed down" is a bit of an overstatement. Durant still averaged 30/10/3 in that Memphis series on 44% shooting and he COMPLETELY torched the Clippers for 33/10/5 on 47% shooting. If all Pippen can do is get Durant to score 30 points a night on 44% shooting, I'm really not that concerned. Also, you're totally sidestepping the fact that one-third of Durant's minutes will be at PF. How are Grant and Green planning to keep up with Durant?


Durant will get the better end of Pippen statistically. And it won't be close. Let's not try to make it seem like this is an even matchup.


Look at the head-to-head matchups and Malone really only started getting the better of Kareem once Kareem was past his prime defensively.


Your floor spacing is pretty pedestrian when compared to Skaro. Eight of our 12 players have had stretches where they could consistently hit 3-point shots in their careers. And, hell, if we're only talking peak 3-point shooting, Payton shot 34% or better 3 out of 4 seasons from 98-01. Neither he or Pippen are major threats from beyond the arc.


Better? That's debatable. Just because your guys got lucky enough to be the fifth or sixth best player on a few title teams does not make them better. Hell, Jo Jo White played a bigger role on those 70s Celtics teams than Scott, Green or Cooper played on those Showtime Lakers teams. And between Bell, Miller, Perkins, Chandler, we have everything. Elite 3-point shooters. A versatile offensive stretch 4. An elite defensive and rebounding center. Also you completely failed to address how Kiki and Petrovic plan to defend Manu and Durant when they're on the floor. That should be a major concern from your point of view, especially if they're taking away minutes from Copper.


One-dimensional is kind of an insult to Miller, who was a pretty damn dangerous, versatile scorer at his peak, boasting a USG% over 21 and averaging 16-18 a game. He's also always been a pretty decent rebounder, defender and playmaker for his position. And Cooper's no better a defender than White, our primary bench playmaker who averaged more than 5 assists per game for six consecutive years in his prime. Miller's also an underrated passer who topped a 20% AST% multiple times in his career.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6eQ78HCGEA

Ebbs
05-21-2014, 07:48 PM
Probably won't vote as this matchup decides who I will have a chance of facing, but it is the best matchup this round

You're going to be facing the cold truth of elimination so vote away.

The_Jamal
05-21-2014, 07:54 PM
We already addressed your concerns. Durant will not see a minute on the floor where he's not defended by Pippen or Cooper. If he moves to small-ball, PF, the Pippen follows him there.

Stop underrating Petrovic and Kiki. They can dish it out as well as they take it. You're talking about players who bring 45+ PPG on 60%+ TS combined at their peaks. That's obviously not their role with us, but it still makes them incredibly dangerous scorers. I see no reason Drazen and Kiki won't be effective in their stints on the floor, especially considering your wing defense is extremely weak. And as far as minutes, they're on the floor like a normal bench player would be in the playoffs for 10-15 minutes. To say "Oh Manu torches Drazen anytime he's on the floor, and shuts him down" is again, an extremely weak argument without considering who Drazen is as an offensive player.

-Our floor spacing is better than yours. BIllups, Scott, Lillard, Drazen, Cooper, Pippen, Kiki all could space the floor. We have 4 elite floor spacers getting minutes and then Pippen, Kiki and Grant who all could shoot and have dangerous mid-range game.


Also, care to address how you go 4on5 against an elite defensive team? Or how Durant hasn't won anything in the playoffs? Or how Payton was a failure as a #1 in the playoffs?

mightybosstone
05-21-2014, 07:57 PM
Few things to piggyback off PSK.

-Skaro is playing 4 on 5 against the one of the best defensive teams in the game. Durant does not get a rest this series. Manu gets to see 25+Mpg of Cooper. GP We're very comfortable letting DPOY Michael Cooper, who guarded the likes of Jordan and Bird, getting 10-15 minutes on him per game when Pippen needs a break.
Wait....I'm totally confused. So you're going to have Cooper play 40 minutes a night splitting his time between Cooper and Manu? Petrovic must not be playing very many minutes every night. And just because Cooper defended Bird and Jordan doesn't mean he stopped them. Jordan averaged 31 a night against Cooper in their 9 matchups and put up at least 37 on him four times. Manu is no Jordan, but he is arguably the second most efficient SG in the history of the NBA behind Jordan. Can Cooper slow him down? Sure. But he's not going to stop him and he's not even going to be defending him for a good chunk of the time that Ginobili is on the floor based on what you just said.


Are you actually joking, saying Santa Monica will get torched defensively on the perimeter? Cooper or Pippen will always be in the game. That in itself makes our perimeter defensive above average.
Again, you've completely failed to address the point I've made. I said the perimeter defense is a weakness, because you don't have any decent wing defenders behind Cooper and Pippen. When one of those guys is off the floor, you're going to have a well below average historically perimeter defender going against one of the most efficient scoring wings in NBA history. That's a weakness.


So the plan is to double off Cooper? fine! You're letting a 38% 3pt shooter and a guard who averaged 5 APG in his prime get free looks at the basket. He's got offensive skills to burn you if you leave him alone. Ben Wallace on the other hand can be defended with a chair. And his only redeeming quality, offensive rebounding, is nullified by Moses rebounded.
Is it nullified completely? Moses was a far better offensive rebounder than he was defensive rebounder, while Wallace equally effective at both and was 16th all-time in career ORB%. I actually think it's pretty much a wash on both ends with the offensive rebounder having a slight advantage when considering historical numbers. As for Cooper, I'm not concerned. If he wants to drive, that's certainly not his strong suit. The guy had a career USG% under 15 and posted double digit scoring titles twice in his entire career. Also, you're claiming the guy was a 38% 3-point shooter, which is totally ********. From 83-87 (his peak), he averaged between 23 and 38 percent from beyond the arc. The guy was wildly inconsistent year to year and was a 34% 3-point shooter over his career. Not 38%.


The same goes for Horace Grant, who you are wrongfully throwing under the bus. Since when did 14 PPG on 58 TS% mean you can leave him open? I don't know about you, but I'm fine letting Grant getting open looks until the cows come home if you choose to double off him. That's a key difference between us and Skaro. Ben Wallace is quite easily the worst offensive starter in the entire redraft. Just has no redeeming qualities. And when you're facing an elite defensive squad like Santa Monica, going 4on5 is not a promising task.
You keep saying "elite defensive squad," but aside from Cooper and Pippen (both perimeter defenders), I'm not exactly shaking in my boots over your defense. Grant was very good defensively, but he played on great defensive teams. And Moses was a plus defender, but hardly an elite defensive center in his own era. I'd take my squad defensively over yours any day of the week. Plus, we have two DPOYs to guard your best offensive weapon 48 minutes a night. What are you going to do when Pippen is off the floor or when Durant is playing the 4?


- Chauncey Billups playoff numbers:
With Det (6 seasons, 111 games): .195 WS/48, 57%TS, 19.2 PER, Finals MVP
With Den (2 seasons, 22 games): .219 WS/48, 64% TS, 22.1 PER

-Gary Payton playoff numbers
with Sea (10 seasons, 94 games): .119 WS/48, 52 TS%, 17.6 PER, No championship
I addressed the efficiency issues in a previous post, but I'll do it again. Payton was charged with scoring more, distributing more and defending more than Billups ever did. Billups was the No. 2 option offensively and the No. 2 perimeter defender defensively. Sure he was more efficient, but the guy had a far easier task on a nightly basis. And if you REALLY want to see a huge gap between playoff production, look up the numbers of Petrovic and Manu Ginobili. Those figures are just laughable.


Durant hasn't won in the playoffs. Payton never won as the man in the playoffs. Santa Monica on the other hand is chalk full of players who stepped up when it counts and won championship rings. Pippen is the greatest #2 option of all time, the exact role he'll be playing here.
No. 2 is the key word here. He and Billups won titles as the No. 2 option. Payton, Durant and Reed led their teams to the Finals as No. 1s.


Moses and Billups both have finals MVPs and stepped up in the playoffs. Grant, Cooper, A.C Green and Byron Scott were role players for some of the greatest teams of all time. They know how to win and how to contribute to winning teams.
Jo Jo White, Tyson Chandler and Mike Miller were pretty damn good role players for championship teams the last time I checked and both White and Chandler played far bigger roles for their championship teams than Cooper, Green or Scott did. Also, there's that Manu Ginobili guy. I've heard he has a pretty good reputation of stepping up in the postseason and his three rings support that claim.

KnicksorBust
05-21-2014, 07:58 PM
Also, you're totally sidestepping the fact that one-third of Durant's minutes will be at PF. How are Grant and Green planning to keep up with Durant?


If Skaro goes small and puts Durant at PF that would actually help Santa Monica. Then Santa Monica can go small and put Pippen at PF and then it allows them to bring in extra defense with Cooper or extra offense with Kiki. That plays right into their hands.

KnicksorBust
05-21-2014, 08:03 PM
Again, you've completely failed to address the point I've made. I said the perimeter defense is a weakness, because you don't have any decent wing defenders behind Cooper and Pippen. When one of those guys is off the floor, you're going to have a well below average historically perimeter defender going against one of the most efficient scoring wings in NBA history. That's a weakness.


Yeah I can't believe they only have 2 of the 5 best perimeter defenders of all-time. That's not nearly enough. :laugh:

mightybosstone
05-21-2014, 08:13 PM
We already addressed your concerns. Durant will not see a minute on the floor where he's not defended by Pippen or Cooper. If he moves to small-ball, PF, the Pippen follows him there.
Sweet! So you're going to have Kiki defend Mike Miller? I love that matchup.


Stop underrating Petrovic and Kiki. They can dish it out as well as they take it. You're talking about players who bring 45+ PPG on 60%+ TS combined at their peaks.
45+ PPG? Wow, that's pretty incredible. Think you can link me the stat that backs up this totally ridiculous, untrue statement?


That's obviously not their role with us, but it still makes them incredibly dangerous scorers. I see no reason Drazen and Kiki won't be effective in their stints on the floor, especially considering your wing defense is extremely weak.
Weak? Since when was Raja Bell a weak defender and since when are prime Manu and prime Durant poor defenders? Manu and Durant are both average and Bell was an elite perimeter defender in his era.


And as far as minutes, they're on the floor like a normal bench player would be in the playoffs for 10-15 minutes. To say "Oh Manu torches Drazen anytime he's on the floor, and shuts him down" is again, an extremely weak argument without considering who Drazen is as an offensive player.
Let's so who Drazen was as an offensive player in the postseason:
10.2 PPG, 32% 3-point shooting, 10.2 PER, .009 WS/48

Kiki was much better, but his numbers are still pretty pedestrian for an all-time game:
16.1 PPG, 34.5% 3-point shooting, 16.4 PER, .110 WS/48

Color me unimpressed by these two supposed offensive studs.


Our floor spacing is better than yours. BIllups, Scott, Lillard, Drazen, Cooper, Pippen, Kiki all could space the floor. We have 4 elite floor spacers getting minutes and then Pippen, Kiki and Grant who all could shoot and have dangerous mid-range game.

:laugh: You're kidding me, right? We have five guys on the roster who averaged 36%+ from beyond the arc for their careers. Billups, Petrovic, Lillard and Kiki can claim that, although Kiki made a whopping 218 3-pointers total for his entire career. We're a far superior 3-point shooting team, and I find it hard to believe you would suggest otherwise.


Also, care to address how you go 4on5 against an elite defensive team? Or how Durant hasn't won anything in the playoffs? Or how Payton was a failure as a #1 in the playoffs?
I did this already. If you don't care to address the write-up (you know, the one I actually took the time to make),
then I see no reason to re-address all of those points again. As for Durant's postseason success, that's a pretty weak argument. Jordan didn't win a title until his 7th season and Lebron didn't win one until his 9th. Durant is in his 7th and plays in one of the most stacked conferences in the history of professional basketball. He also lost his second best player in the postseason last year and his third best player in the postseason this year. Blaming Durant for not winning a title is pathetic.

mightybosstone
05-21-2014, 08:26 PM
If Skaro goes small and puts Durant at PF that would actually help Santa Monica. Then Santa Monica can go small and put Pippen at PF and then it allows them to bring in extra defense with Cooper or extra offense with Kiki. That plays right into their hands.
I fail to see that logic. Couldn't I then argue that I can bring Miller and Bell into the lineup for offense and defense? It goes both ways, dude. And if they counter with a small ball lineup that turns out to be effective, what prevents me from switching back? The point is that I can trust Durant to play PF against Green or Grant, who weren't historically great rebounders. While I don't think you can trust Pippen to play PF and expect to stay competitive on the glass or body up Willis Reed. If we go small ball and they switch, we can just as easily switch back. But we have that ability in our arsenal. They don't.


Yeah I can't believe they only have 2 of the 5 best perimeter defenders of all-time. That's not nearly enough. :laugh:
That's not my point. You're glossing over a very legitimate point with jokes. The fact is that they have two incredible perimeter defenders and two historically terrible ones. They're going to HAVE to play Cooper and Pippen as much as possible and, even then, they won't be able to guard Manu and Durant every minute they're on the court. Also, if Pippen is exerting all of his energy defensively on Durant, he's going to be far less effective on the offensive side of the ball.

Also, I'd like to post Pippen's numbers against Larry Bird to prove a point:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=birdla01&p2=pippesc01

In 14 games head-to-head, many of them at the end of Bird's career when he was well past his prime, Bird still managed to put up 26/8/6 on 50/45/87 shooting percentages. That was Pippen matched up against the best SF of his era and he hardly slowed him down at all. Durant is better. He's more athletic, he's quicker, he's longer and he's more efficient. If Pippen couldn't put a dent in Bird, why should he be able to stop Durant?

mightybosstone
05-21-2014, 08:30 PM
Unfortunately, I don't have all night to debate with you gentlemen. It's been fun, though. I may have some time to get on to debate tomorrow night. I'm a little disappointed with the number of votes, but hopefully we'll get some this evening. I am curious if the rule still stands that votes don't count for posters with fewer than 1,000 posts, as if that's the case, I'm up 4-1 or 4-2. If the commishees could clarify that, it would be a big help.

The_Jamal
05-21-2014, 08:35 PM
So in an ALL-TIME game, we're supposed to give Durant a pass for not winning? Boo hoo. That's the game bud. Durant's career is over in this game. He hasn't won a title. That's on you for taking a #1 option who has yet to win a championship. And for backing him up with another failed #1 option who didn't win a title. And then backing that up with the worst offensive starter in the redraft.

Also, was Reed even the #1 option with Frazier on the Knicks title teams? Frazier was easily a 1A/1B option with Reed for the Knicks first title and it's not even close in the 2nd title Reed won. At that point, Reed wasn't even a 4th or 5th option. Before Frazier showed up, Reed couldn't get anything done either.


So wait, wait wait. YOUR perimeter defense isn't weak because of Raja Bell, Durant and Manu. But mine is WITH Scottie Pippen and Michael Cooper? Do you hear yourself? Neither Manu or Durant were/are stoppers defensively. In an all-time game, being an average defender in your era does not nor should it equate well when comparing all-time greats with each other.

The_Jamal
05-21-2014, 08:36 PM
Unfortunately, I don't have all night to debate with you gentlemen. It's been fun, though. I may have some time to get on to debate tomorrow night. I'm a little disappointed with the number of votes, but hopefully we'll get some this evening. I am curious if the rule still stands that votes don't count for posters with fewer than 1,000 posts, as if that's the case, I'm up 4-1 or 4-2. If the commishees could clarify that, it would be a big help.

It's 100 votes, and always has been!

KnicksorBust
05-21-2014, 08:46 PM
I fail to see that logic. Couldn't I then argue that I can bring Miller and Bell into the lineup for offense and defense? It goes both ways, dude.

Then you've completely lost all objectivity in this matchup. Kiki was a damn near 30ppg scorer in his prime. He's miles better offensively than Miller. Same thing with Cooper and Bell. Bell's two all-defensive teams can't hold the jock of Cooper's 8 including a DPOY.


And if they counter with a small ball lineup that turns out to be effective, what prevents me from switching back? The point is that I can trust Durant to play PF against Green or Grant, who weren't historically great rebounders. While I don't think you can trust Pippen to play PF and expect to stay competitive on the glass or body up Willis Reed. If we go small ball and they switch, we can just as easily switch back. But we have that ability in our arsenal. They don't.

You're making an argument for a scenario that doesn't exist.


That's not my point. You're glossing over a very legitimate point with jokes. The fact is that they have two incredible perimeter defenders and two historically terrible ones. They're going to HAVE to play Cooper and Pippen as much as possible and, even then, they won't be able to guard Manu and Durant every minute they're on the court. Also, if Pippen is exerting all of his energy defensively on Durant, he's going to be far less effective on the offensive side of the ball.

Durant will have one of them on him at all times. Manu may have some parts of the game with Drazen Petrovic on him. He's not going to explode for 20 points in one quarter just because Drazen was on him.


Also, I'd like to post Pippen's numbers against Larry Bird to prove a point:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=birdla01&p2=pippesc01

In 14 games head-to-head, many of them at the end of Bird's career when he was well past his prime, Bird still managed to put up 26/8/6 on 50/45/87 shooting percentages. That was Pippen matched up against the best SF of his era and he hardly slowed him down at all. Durant is better. He's more athletic, he's quicker, he's longer and he's more efficient. If Pippen couldn't put a dent in Bird, why should he be able to stop Durant?

#1.) Are you really that confident that we can count on Durant on the same level of Larry Bird in a critical playoff game? I was going to bring up Durant's lack of post-season success but you are really opening the door with this comparison.

#2.) Bird was more of a post-player than Durant. The comparison isn't bad (it's very popular with the whole long, rangy, shooting SFs thing going on) but Pippen is definitely more equipped to keep Durant in front of him than play against Bird with his back to the basket. This is why a guy like Tony Allen can cover Durant but would get **** on by a guy like Dirk or Bird.

#3.) 14 games against the GOAT SF doesn't diminish what Pippen accomplished on both ends of the floor.


Unfortunately, I don't have all night to debate with you gentlemen. It's been fun, though. I may have some time to get on to debate tomorrow night. I'm a little disappointed with the number of votes, but hopefully we'll get some this evening. I am curious if the rule still stands that votes don't count for posters with fewer than 1,000 posts, as if that's the case, I'm up 4-1 or 4-2. If the commishees could clarify that, it would be a big help.

The_Jamal
05-21-2014, 08:48 PM
I fail to see that logic. Couldn't I then argue that I can bring Miller and Bell into the lineup for offense and defense? It goes both ways, dude. And if they counter with a small ball lineup that turns out to be effective, what prevents me from switching back? The point is that I can trust Durant to play PF against Green or Grant, who weren't historically great rebounders. While I don't think you can trust Pippen to play PF and expect to stay competitive on the glass or body up Willis Reed. If we go small ball and they switch, we can just as easily switch back. But we have that ability in our arsenal. They don't.


That's not my point. You're glossing over a very legitimate point with jokes. The fact is that they have two incredible perimeter defenders and two historically terrible ones. They're going to HAVE to play Cooper and Pippen as much as possible and, even then, they won't be able to guard Manu and Durant every minute they're on the court. Also, if Pippen is exerting all of his energy defensively on Durant, he's going to be far less effective on the offensive side of the ball.

Also, I'd like to post Pippen's numbers against Larry Bird to prove a point:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=birdla01&p2=pippesc01

In 14 games head-to-head, many of them at the end of Bird's career when he was well past his prime, Bird still managed to put up 26/8/6 on 50/45/87 shooting percentages. That was Pippen matched up against the best SF of his era and he hardly slowed him down at all. Durant is better. He's more athletic, he's quicker, he's longer and he's more efficient. If Pippen couldn't put a dent in Bird, why should he be able to stop Durant?

You're point proves nothing. What is that supposed to do? De-Legitimatize probably the best perimeter defender of all-time? There's no way around that match-up sucks for you and your best player. Durant is being guard by not just 1 but 2 of the best perimeter defenders of all-time. He's not going to have an easy series. You're being beyond ridiculous if you think Durant cruises here to even his career averages. There isn't a wing player who wouldn't have a tough time being swarmed by Pippen and Cooper all series long. The beauty is we can keep both guys fresh. So there's no need to be concerned about Pippen getting tired.

Wait, so are we're stuck playing Pippen at PF if you switch Reed back to PF? Do you curse him with some sort of spell? Then we'll just readjust right back.

Just stop with your perimeter defense speal. It doesn't work lol. And you conveniently ignore what Kiki and Drazen are as scorers and floor spacers. And you COMPLETELY skewed Kiki's playoff numbers. Not even funny how much better he did than you tried to make him think he was.

The first 7 seasons he was in the playoffs with Portland and Denver, you know, where he ACTUALLY played:

With Den:

24 PPG, 59% TS, 21 PER, .158 WS/48

With Portland:

22 PPG, 58 TS%, 16 PER, .108 WS/48

We're not pulling any punches with Kiki. Dude is in the game to score at a ridiculously efficient level. And as I just showed, he did it in the playoffs too.

As far as Drazen goes... Well. I don't think it's entirely fair to blame him for his incredibly low sample size of games and 2 seasons in the playoffs

Raps08-09 Champ
05-22-2014, 02:55 AM
Who's the 70's player for Santa Monica?

Sadds The Gr8
05-22-2014, 03:27 AM
only 8 votes? that's pathetic. these games aren't getting any attention...maybe they need to be stickied, or maybe we shouldn't do them during the playoffs when that's all everyone cares about right now

Sadds The Gr8
05-22-2014, 03:31 AM
Who's the 70's player for Santa Monica?

woah I didn't even notice that. Only guy you can make an argument for is Moses but that'd be dumb to use him then cuz his peak was like 80-83...

DQ????????????????????@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!?????????????????????????????

tredigs
05-22-2014, 04:41 AM
Lol. Moses was already a 3 time All Star, a member of the All Defensive team and an MVP before 1980 rolled around, so that's a clear OK.

mightybosstone
05-22-2014, 08:08 AM
Then you've completely lost all objectivity in this matchup. Kiki was a damn near 30ppg scorer in his prime. He's miles better offensively than Miller. Same thing with Cooper and Bell. Bell's two all-defensive teams can't hold the jock of Cooper's 8 including a DPOY.
Santa Montica's bench wings are better. I'll give you that. But my bench PG, PF and C are better. Also, from what they're saying, they claim Cooper is getting 40+ minutes a game, so he's not really a bench player anymore. Also, I've already asked to see a distribution of their minutes and still have yet to see them. As I've stated multiple times, I question their ability to put Pippen and Cooper on Manu and Durant every minute of every game AND still a ton of minutes left over for Kiki and Petrovic to give them much of an offensive boost.

And since when should I be objective? This is a persuasive essay, not an article. ;)


You're making an argument for a scenario that doesn't exist.
This just simply isn't true. Multiple times a game, teams will make substitutions and unless the opposing team can read minds, they're not going to be able to make that change immediately within the same timeout. If I bring Durant off the bench and put him at PF, there's going to be an advantage there. If Santa Montica makes the adjustment and the small ball lineup no longer works, then I'll switch back.


Durant will have one of them on him at all times. Manu may have some parts of the game with Drazen Petrovic on him. He's not going to explode for 20 points in one quarter just because Drazen was on him.
I never said he would. I'm just saying that you can't have your cake and eat it, too. Just because you've got two world class defenders doesn't mean they can guard everyone on the floor at the same time. Cooper cannot guard Durant, Manu and Payton substantial minutes every game. And even if he did, one of those guys is going to have a subpar defender on him. That's why I went out of my way to add two-way wings who weren't liabilities on the defensive end.


#1.) Are you really that confident that we can count on Durant on the same level of Larry Bird in a critical playoff game? I was going to bring up Durant's lack of post-season success but you are really opening the door with this comparison.
Durant's postseason numbers are unquestionably better than Bird's. Obviously he has achieved a lot less than Bird has in terms of titles, accolades and big moments. But Bird's teams were so obviously superior to Durant's and he played in an inferior conference to today's Western Conference. If you put Durant on a similarly talented team in a similarly weak conference, do I think he would hit as many clutch shots as Bird? Maybe not. But he'd be every bit as dominant over the course of 48 minutes and I don't think he'd have any less success than Bird.


#2.) Bird was more of a post-player than Durant. The comparison isn't bad (it's very popular with the whole long, rangy, shooting SFs thing going on) but Pippen is definitely more equipped to keep Durant in front of him than play against Bird with his back to the basket. This is why a guy like Tony Allen can cover Durant but would get **** on by a guy like Dirk or Bird.
This is true, but Bird didn't have the speed or athleticism of Durant. And as I previously stated, Tony Allen "slowing down" Durant still resulted in the guy scoring 30 a night on relatively decent efficiency over the course of that series. I don't think there is such a thing as a true stopper when it comes to guarding offensive juggernauts like Jordan, Lebron, Bird or Durant. There are guys who will do a better job than others, but great offense ultimately beats great defense, particularly among perimeter players.


#3.) 14 games against the GOAT SF doesn't diminish what Pippen accomplished on both ends of the floor.
I never said it did. I just tried to prove a point that when facing a similarly talented SF of his own era, Pippen didn't exactly make much of an impact on that player's production or efficiency. Could he have more of an impact on Durant? Perhaps. But Durant is a more productive, more efficient offensive player to begin with than Bird, and I don't see how Pippen limits Durant enough to keep him from putting up 28-30 points a night.

mightybosstone
05-22-2014, 08:33 AM
So in an ALL-TIME game, we're supposed to give Durant a pass for not winning? Boo hoo. That's the game bud. Durant's career is over in this game. He hasn't won a title. That's on you for taking a #1 option who has yet to win a championship. And for backing him up with another failed #1 option who didn't win a title. And then backing that up with the worst offensive starter in the redraft.
First off, I'd rather have a No. 1 who led his team to the Finals and lost against a superior team than a bunch of role players who jumped on the backs of superior players to earn their hardware. You're making it sound like Payton was a failure for getting the Sonics to the title in a conference with 4-5 top 25 players of all-time and then losing to the greatest player in NBA history. And then you're ripping on a 25-year-old Durant whose Thunder teams weren't even remotely that good until three years ago and who is about to lose in his second consecutive series due to injuries that were completely out of his control.

You're just yelling "RINGZZZZ" with no context whatsoever. Are you sure you're not a Kobe Bryant fan, Jamal? You're starting to sound like one.


Also, was Reed even the #1 option with Frazier on the Knicks title teams? Frazier was easily a 1A/1B option with Reed for the Knicks first title and it's not even close in the 2nd title Reed won. At that point, Reed wasn't even a 4th or 5th option. Before Frazier showed up, Reed couldn't get anything done either.
:laugh: Now you're truly grasping at straws. Frazier won Finals MVP in BOTH titles and his first ring came in the same year he was the league MVP. He led two separate teams that won titles against Wilt freakin' Chamberlain and he just flat outplayed Wilt for the second title.

Also, do you really want to go down this road of who needed "help" to win their rings? Because last time I checked, Moses accomplished very little in Houston with some pretty talented basketball teams and had to join Dr. J on a stacked team in Philly. Also, despite being one of the most dominant title teams ever, that Philly team was a complete disappointment the next three years with Moses despite getting an insanely talented rookie in 84 by the name of Charles Barkley.

And really, Moses is the only unquestioned No. 1 guy on a championship team on your entire roster. Pippen, Grant, Scott, Green, Cooper... They all won their rings while clinging to the coattails of superior players. So your whole championship argument to begin with is a pretty poor one.


So wait, wait wait. YOUR perimeter defense isn't weak because of Raja Bell, Durant and Manu. But mine is WITH Scottie Pippen and Michael Cooper? Do you hear yourself? Neither Manu or Durant were/are stoppers defensively. In an all-time game, being an average defender in your era does not nor should it equate well when comparing all-time greats with each other.
No sir. You're twisting my words. I'm saying that at least I've got plus defenders on the floor at all times. Your wing defenders are undeniably better. I'm saying that at least we've got two-way wings who aren't liabilities on that end of the floor. Whether it's Manu, Durant or Bell, I know they're going to defend opposing wings competently. Kiki and Petrovic were one-way guys, and Petrovic especially is a huge liability on that end of the floor.

Also, it's worth mentioning that Payton is more than capable of guarding Petrovic. I don't know if it's necessary, because you still have yet to show me a minutes breakdown proving that the guy is going to play very many minutes at all, but I can easily move Payton to the 2 guard and give Jo Jo some time running point whenever Petrovic is on the floor. Hell, I could put him on Kiki or Scottie if I need to in a pinch. He's every bit the perimeter defender Cooper and Pippen were.

mightybosstone
05-22-2014, 08:35 AM
Big surprise. 1-800 STFU voted for the underdog again. He's voted for the lower seed in every single matchup and hasn't explained a single vote or posted in any of the voting threads. I seriously question the validity of that guy's vote.

KnicksorBust
05-22-2014, 08:58 AM
Santa Montica's bench wings are better. I'll give you that. But my bench PG, PF and C are better. Also, from what they're saying, they claim Cooper is getting 40+ minutes a game, so he's not really a bench player anymore. Also, I've already asked to see a distribution of their minutes and still have yet to see them. As I've stated multiple times, I question their ability to put Pippen and Cooper on Manu and Durant every minute of every game AND still a ton of minutes left over for Kiki and Petrovic to give them much of an offensive boost.

The more you harp on their minutes breakdown, the less annoyed I get by it and the more interested I am to actually see how they would work their rotation.


And since when should I be objective? This is a persuasive essay, not an article. ;)

:laugh: You got me there.



This just simply isn't true. Multiple times a game, teams will make substitutions and unless the opposing team can read minds, they're not going to be able to make that change immediately within the same timeout. If I bring Durant off the bench and put him at PF, there's going to be an advantage there. If Santa Montica makes the adjustment and the small ball lineup no longer works, then I'll switch back.

Right. I think this is where we just have to agree to disagree because I'm under the assumption that Santa Monica has Pippen on a rope that is attached at the hip to Durant. If Durant gets subbed. Pippen can get a blow. If Durant goes back in (at SF, PF, whatever), Pippen follows. You may get matches of Manu guarded by Petrovic or Manu guarded by Kiki (that actually sounds worse) but I don't see Durant getting mis-matches unless you consistently force pick and roll action to produce them.


I never said he would. I'm just saying that you can't have your cake and eat it, too. Just because you've got two world class defenders doesn't mean they can guard everyone on the floor at the same time. Cooper cannot guard Durant, Manu and Payton substantial minutes every game. And even if he did, one of those guys is going to have a subpar defender on him. That's why I went out of my way to add two-way wings who weren't liabilities on the defensive end.

You are giving Manu/Durant a lot of defensive credit.


Durant's postseason numbers are unquestionably better than Bird's. Obviously he has achieved a lot less than Bird has in terms of titles, accolades and big moments. But Bird's teams were so obviously superior to Durant's and he played in an inferior conference to today's Western Conference. If you put Durant on a similarly talented team in a similarly weak conference, do I think he would hit as many clutch shots as Bird? Maybe not. But he'd be every bit as dominant over the course of 48 minutes and I don't think he'd have any less success than Bird.

I would change that to "Probably not." Fair enough on your other points. I am definitely in the corner of the "Thunder need to trade Westbrook and build around Durant better" camp.


This is true, but Bird didn't have the speed or athleticism of Durant. And as I previously stated, Tony Allen "slowing down" Durant still resulted in the guy scoring 30 a night on relatively decent efficiency over the course of that series. I don't think there is such a thing as a true stopper when it comes to guarding offensive juggernauts like Jordan, Lebron, Bird or Durant. There are guys who will do a better job than others, but great offense ultimately beats great defense, particularly among perimeter players.

I never said it did. I just tried to prove a point that when facing a similarly talented SF of his own era, Pippen didn't exactly make much of an impact on that player's production or efficiency. Could he have more of an impact on Durant? Perhaps. But Durant is a more productive, more efficient offensive player to begin with than Bird, and I don't see how Pippen limits Durant enough to keep him from putting up 28-30 points a night.

Pippen is Kawhi Leonard on steroids. The Spurs series could hurt you.

All that being said I'm leaning Skaro. :laugh:

The_Jamal
05-22-2014, 09:03 AM
Of course I'm ripping 25 year old Durant! This is an all-time redraft! You don't get to say "Well, give Durant another 5 years and dude will have playoff accolades up the wazoo!

As far as I'm concerned, future Durant doesn't exist. His career is over in this game. And he's done nothing in the playoffs as a #1. Payton did nothing as a #1.


My team on the other hand, actually stepped up in the playoffs. Billups might have been a #2 for the team, but he also was there 4th quarter guy down the stretch, thus the name "Mr. Big Shot". And again, it's pathetic that you're trying to downgrade Pippen who won 6 titles as a #2 option. You know, the actual role he's playing with us.

It's even more silly to that you're trying to de legitimize Grant, Cooper, Scott, Green for being valuable role players on all-time great teams. All my role players produced at a high level for a long period of time on the best teams in NBA history. Is that supposed to work against them or something? Because that's the argument you're making.

KnicksorBust
05-22-2014, 09:08 AM
What about the benches? Also, as I pointed out above, Billups-Payton is far closer to equal than anyone realizes. Obviously Payton has had the lengthy career but Billups at his peak had the numbers just as good as GP. Offensively, Billups also provided the spacing that GP doesn't.

But anyways, Santa Monica clearly has an advantage on the bench. Guys like Raja Bell and Mike Miller simply don't compare to Scott, Kiki, Cooper, Green or yes even Damian Lillard (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2GJ2PwXQ4E)

BTW, MBT, please click those Lillard links...

It's closer but Billups didn't put up those numbers being guarded by Payton. He could even switch Manu on him and just let Payton swallow up Petrovic. Then you REALLY need Moses to go off and he's got DPOY Ben Wallace OR Willis Reed ready to go in that matchup.

You are quick to point your bench advantage... by minutes how do you see your rotation playing out in this series?

KnicksorBust
05-22-2014, 09:10 AM
Of course I'm ripping 25 year old Durant! This is an all-time redraft! You don't get to say "Well, give Durant another 5 years and dude will have playoff accolades up the wazoo!

As far as I'm concerned, future Durant doesn't exist. His career is over in this game. And he's done nothing in the playoffs as a #1. Payton did nothing as a #1.


My team on the other hand, actually stepped up in the playoffs. Billups might have been a #2 for the team, but he also was there 4th quarter guy down the stretch, thus the name "Mr. Big Shot". And again, it's pathetic that you're trying to downgrade Pippen who won 6 titles as a #2 option. You know, the actual role he's playing with us.

It's even more silly to that you're trying to de legitimize Grant, Cooper, Scott, Green for being valuable role players on all-time great teams. All my role players produced at a high level for a long period of time on the best teams in NBA history. Is that supposed to work against them or something? Because that's the argument you're making.

How is Durant losing to LeBron/Wade/Bosh Heat and Payton losing to MJ/Pippen in the NBA Finals "nothing"?

You apply no credit to the role they played in getting there or how they played when they got there?

The_Jamal
05-22-2014, 09:14 AM
PG: Chauncey Billups (38) || Byron Scott (10) || Damian Lillard
SG: Michael Cooper (30) || Drazen Petrovic (18)
SF: Scottie Pippen (28) || Kiki Vandeweghe (12) || Michael Cooper (8)
PF: Horace Grant (28)|| Socttie Pippen(12) || Kiki Vandeweghe (4) || A.C. Green (4) || Tom Heinsohn
C: Moses Malone (40) || Horace Grant (8) || P.J. Brown

And as KoB and Santa Monica have said for the millionth time, Scottie Pippen will follow Durant to the depths of hell.

The_Jamal
05-22-2014, 09:25 AM
How is Durant losing to LeBron/Wade/Bosh Heat and Payton losing to MJ/Pippen in the NBA Finals "nothing"?

You apply no credit to the role they played in getting there or how they played when they got there?

I'm applying the same logic MBT is applying to my guys. He's making the argument Pippen, Coop, Grant, Scott, etc. didn't play a major role in winning titles and just got carried there on the backs of other people. So if he gets to make that argument, then I get to make that he has 2 "#1 option" who never got done in the playoffs.

The_Jamal
05-22-2014, 09:27 AM
I addressed this already. Your guys have a lot of rings, but they played secondary roles on some of the greatest teams in NBA history. Cooper, Scott and Green are not Magic or Kareem and Horace Grant and Scottie Pippen are not Michael Jordan. As for All-defensive team numbers, you may have more, but I've got three separate players who won DPOY, two of which happen to defend C, the position played by easily the most important player on your entire team.

Better? That's debatable. Just because your guys got lucky enough to be the fifth or sixth best player on a few title teams does not make them better. Hell, Jo Jo White played a bigger role on those 70s Celtics teams than Scott, Green or Cooper played on those Showtime Lakers teams. And between Bell, Miller, Perkins, Chandler, we have everything. Elite 3-point shooters. A versatile offensive stretch 4. An elite defensive and rebounding center. Also you completely failed to address how Kiki and Petrovic plan to defend Manu and Durant when they're on the floor. That should be a major concern from your point of view, especially if they're taking away minutes from Copper.

...

KnicksorBust
05-22-2014, 10:54 AM
PG: Chauncey Billups (38) || Byron Scott (10) || Damian Lillard
SG: Michael Cooper (30) || Drazen Petrovic (18)
SF: Scottie Pippen (28) || Kiki Vandeweghe (12) || Michael Cooper (8)
PF: Horace Grant (28)|| Socttie Pippen(12) || Kiki Vandeweghe (4) || A.C. Green (4) || Tom Heinsohn
C: Moses Malone (40) || Horace Grant (8) || P.J. Brown

And as KoB and Santa Monica have said for the millionth time, Scottie Pippen will follow Durant to the depths of hell.

:laugh:


I'm applying the same logic MBT is applying to my guys. He's making the argument Pippen, Coop, Grant, Scott, etc. didn't play a major role in winning titles and just got carried there on the backs of other people. So if he gets to make that argument, then I get to make that he has 2 "#1 option" who never got done in the playoffs.

I don't think that's the same thing. Also you'd have a very difficult time convincing me Durant can't get it done after he had a phenomenal 2012 Finals performance against the Heat.

If I asked you honestly: Do you think can handle being a #1 option on a championship team? I don't think you can honestly answer back "no." I know I can't. Plus it's not like he has to carry a herculean task with Reed (proven he can get it done) and Manu (proven he can get it done) there to support him in crunch-time.

I may have missed this somewhere but are you putting Moses or Ho Grant on Reed?

todu82
05-22-2014, 11:21 AM
Skaro.

mightybosstone
05-22-2014, 11:24 AM
PG: Chauncey Billups (38) || Byron Scott (10) || Damian Lillard
SG: Michael Cooper (30) || Drazen Petrovic (18)
SF: Scottie Pippen (28) || Kiki Vandeweghe (12) || Michael Cooper (8)
PF: Horace Grant (28)|| Socttie Pippen(12) || Kiki Vandeweghe (4) || A.C. Green (4) || Tom Heinsohn
C: Moses Malone (40) || Horace Grant (8) || P.J. Brown

And as KoB and Santa Monica have said for the millionth time, Scottie Pippen will follow Durant to the depths of hell.

I see what you did there. So, suppose I realize early in the series that Pippen will move to whatever position Durant plays regardless of where it is and I switch up my rotation. How do your respond to this rotation?

PG Gary Payton (28) / Jo Jo White (10) / Manu Ginobili (10)
SG Manu Ginobili (26) / Gary Payton (10) / Raja Bell (10)
SF Kevin Durant (40) / Raja Bell (10)
PF Willis Reed (38) / Sam Perkins (10)
C Ben Wallace (40) / Tyson Chandler (8)

In this rotation, Payton and Bell give me 30 minutes of elite defense on the wings, whether they're guarding Petrovic, Kiki or Pippen. And with Pippen forced to get all of his minutes at SF, you're seriously limited with the amount of minutes your stud 6th man Kiki gets to play. Are you going to chance it and give him those 16 minutes at PF or go defense and give more minutes to Green? Either way you're limiting yourself on one end of the floor.

mightybosstone
05-22-2014, 11:39 AM
I feel like I've been on the defensive this entire time (mainly because only one of use bothered to do a write-up). Let's turn the tables for a few minutes and address Santa Montica's offense. They're suggesting that we'll basically be playing 4 on 5 in terms of offense, but is that really the case here? Look at their starting offense and you'll see one phenomenal offensive player, two damn good offensive players, one mediocre offensive player and one completely one-dimensional offensive player. Meanwhile, we've got two phenomenal offensive players, two damn good offensive players and one completely one-dimensional offensive player.

(And no, Ben Wallace is not a completely useless player offensively as many would suggest. The man averaged damn near 4 offensive rebounds per 36 minutes over his career and his high rate of blocks and steals will create a ton of transition opportunities on the offensive end.)

They have yet to address how that team is supposed to gel offensively with our defensive gameplan. It's obvious that Payton will give Billups a major headache and we plan to double Moses with Reed or Manu every chance we get. Are they really going to suggest that Michael Cooper or Horace Grant are going to carry them offensively all game long? Because I seriously doubt the validity of that. And even if Pippen gets a one-on-one matchup with Durant, the guy's going to be exhausted from guarding KD 40 minutes every night. What can they honestly expect from him offensively every game? 25/5/5? Because that's what they're going to need to win this series, and I don't think he's capable of doing that efficiently over a seven game series.

Sure, they can counter their lack of offense by swapping out Cooper for Petrovic, but we can just as easily put Payton or Bell on him to limit his open looks on the perimeter. Plus, they need Cooper on the floor as much as possible to defend, Payton, Manu and Durant.

mightybosstone
05-22-2014, 11:46 AM
BTW, MBT, please click those Lillard links...

I will not be clicking any link I see that has the name "Lillard" attached to it for several years. It's just too painful. Besides, he doesn't even matter in this series as he's essentially your third point guard. So any soul crushing, heart wrenching shots (that may or may not have caused me to cry for a little bit) won't really matter in this series.

:sigh:

Matter.
05-22-2014, 12:41 PM
Bump

Sadds The Gr8
05-22-2014, 01:23 PM
Lol. Moses was already a 3 time All Star, a member of the All Defensive team and an MVP before 1980 rolled around, so that's a clear OK.

I was being tongue in cheek but the actual rules are that we're using 3 year peaks. Moses peak is probably 80-83.

PatsSoxKnicks
05-22-2014, 04:16 PM
PG: Chauncey Billups (38) || Byron Scott (10) || Damian Lillard
SG: Michael Cooper (30) || Drazen Petrovic (18)
SF: Scottie Pippen (28) || Kiki Vandeweghe (12) || Michael Cooper (8)
PF: Horace Grant (28)|| Socttie Pippen(12) || Kiki Vandeweghe (4) || A.C. Green (4) || Tom Heinsohn
C: Moses Malone (40) || Horace Grant (8) || P.J. Brown

And as KoB and Santa Monica have said for the millionth time, Scottie Pippen will follow Durant to the depths of hell.

To piggyback off this, the minutes for Cooper and Pippen will also be staggered so that they are always playing with either Petrovic and/or Kiki. Additionally, considering the minutes distribution, they will also get time together at which point Skaro will really struggle to score.

But in either case, Durant will ALWAYS see one of Cooper or Pippen on him. At no point will he have Kiki on him defensively. And depending on how Skaro changes their minutes around, we can always counter.

And if Skaro is going to suggest DPOY Cooper can't guard Durant, let's not forget Tony Allen guarded Durant in the 1st round of this playoffs and held him with below average shooting %'s. Cooper is one inch taller and will bother Durant in the same way that he can get up and under him and cause turnovers.

As for Manu, yeah he might see Petrovic on him at times but let's not pretend Manu's going to go off for 20 points in a quarter just because Petrovic is guarding him. He's never done that. And even if you are going to bring up my defense of him in the last round, I never said he was an all world scorer. He isn't and he's not going to kill us by scoring a ton on Petrovic in those limited minutes.

PatsSoxKnicks
05-22-2014, 04:25 PM
I see what you did there. So, suppose I realize early in the series that Pippen will move to whatever position Durant plays regardless of where it is and I switch up my rotation. How do your respond to this rotation?

PG Gary Payton (28) / Jo Jo White (10) / Manu Ginobili (10)
SG Manu Ginobili (26) / Gary Payton (10) / Raja Bell (10)
SF Kevin Durant (40) / Raja Bell (10)
PF Willis Reed (38) / Sam Perkins (10)
C Ben Wallace (40) / Tyson Chandler (8)

In this rotation, Payton and Bell give me 30 minutes of elite defense on the wings, whether they're guarding Petrovic, Kiki or Pippen. And with Pippen forced to get all of his minutes at SF, you're seriously limited with the amount of minutes your stud 6th man Kiki gets to play. Are you going to chance it and give him those 16 minutes at PF or go defense and give more minutes to Green? Either way you're limiting yourself on one end of the floor.

In that case, we cross match Cooper on Durant for some of those minutes. Cooper can play SG but guard Durant on the other end. We have absolutely no problem putting former DPOY Cooper (clearly better than one Tony Allen who guarded Durant well in the 1st round) on Durant.

Also, while we're at it, let's look at some numbers for Durant going up against Kawhi Leonard, who is nothing compared to the GOAT wing defender Pippen:


According to ESPN Stats & Info tracking, Durant's average shot distance in this series is 18.7 feet away from the basket, almost 4 feet farther away than it was in the first two rounds of the playoffs (14.8 feet).

But Leonard has followed the script and bodied up Durant to force him out of deep position. Video tracking informs us that 64 of Durant's 84 offensive touches have originated above the free throw line in this series. In Game 2, Durant found just two shots near the basket. One was blocked by about three Spurs and the other came when Leonard was sidelined.

With Ibaka and Harden in the fold in 2012, the Spurs couldn't afford to leave a rookie like Leonard out on an island against Durant. But Leonard is up to the task now. After two games, Durant still has yet to draw a shooting foul against Leonard.

So if Kawhi Leonard is successfully deterring Durant from shooting at the basket while Durant has yet to draw a single shooting foul against Leonard, what will Scottie Pippen the GOAT wing defender do against Durant? As KoB said, Scottie Pippen is Kawhi on steroids and Durant is having a poor series against Kawhi right now (21.5 ppg on 45.7% FG) so why isn't it reasonable to expect Durant to average even less than what he's averaging against the Spurs right now? And if Durant isn't getting Skaro 25+ ppg, they're in a lot of trouble. Kawhi is holding him to 21.5 ppg and it's likely that Pippen, a far better defender than Leonard, could hold him to even less than what Leonard is holding him too.

PatsSoxKnicks
05-22-2014, 04:42 PM
Also, I want to address this whole idea that Byron Scott was some scrub/glorified role player on the Showtime Lakers like Skaro keeps trying to insinuate.

The Showtime Lakers won ships in 85, 87 and 88. In 85, I can agree that he was more of a role player BUT he still averaged 16 ppg with a TS% of 58.7%. And his 16 ppg ended up being 1 point off from Worthy's 17 ppg that he averaged, indicating that he wasn't exactly far off from being the #3 option on that title team. And in fact, in the playoffs, he actually upped his averages to 16.9 ppg and just 0.6 ppg off from Magic's scoring with a 56% TS%.

In 87, he was in a fairly similar role. But what Santa Monica really wants to emphasize is Scott's role in the 88 Lakers title run. Scott LED THE TEAM IN SCORING, averaging 21.7 ppg during the regular season. That's right- he led the team in scoring, averaging more than both Magic, Kareem and Worthy in that season. He also finished 2nd on the team in Win Shares. In the playoffs, he was more of a co #2 option with Magic averaging 19.6 ppg, clearly ahead of a declined Kareem who was averaging only 14 ppg by that playoffs. And he had a great 58.3% TS% during that playoff run.

So if Scott was good enough to lead a title winning team in scoring during the regular season and act as a Co #2 option in the playoffs, averaging almost 20 ppg, how the hell is he a glorified role player like you try to make him out to be? Furthermore, in BOTH the 85 and 88 title runs, he had USG rates above 20, indicating that he was taking more than the average share of shots for a title team. You're continued diminishing of Scott is laughable. He's proven he can be a #1 scorer on a TITLE WINNING TEAM, who on your bench can claim anything close to that?

Additionally, we aren't afraid to play Scott at SG where we can go with a Billups-Scott backcourt that provides a ton of ship experience as well as excellent spacing. Scott's 3-year prime of 19.4 ppg from 87-89, including a title in there proves that you have to take him more seriously than you have.

Miller and Bell are laughable as players compared to Scott. And Petrovic/Cooper and Kiki both have clear advantages over Miller and Bell too. In fact, the fact that Miller and Bell will be getting minutes- one role player on a team that never won ****- is a clear weakness that Santa Monica will exploit. And the idea that Miller would win a matchup with Kiki is laughable considering Kiki was a near 30 ppg scorer in his prime while Miller's best was about half of that. And Cooper vs. Raja Bell? It's not even a comparison. One is a former DPOY and the other is a 2x all-defense (one 2nd team) that never won **** as a role player. And we even like the matchup of Petrovic vs. Bell since Bell's offense isn't going to be able to take advantage of Petrovic's lack of D. Likewise, we're confident Petrovic can still get off good shots against a defender who has only been on 2 all-defense teams, one of which was a 2nd team. Compare that to our defenders and it's a joke.

mightybosstone
05-22-2014, 04:47 PM
To piggyback off this, the minutes for Cooper and Pippen will also be staggered so that they are always playing with either Petrovic and/or Kiki. Additionally, considering the minutes distribution, they will also get time together at which point Skaro will really struggle to score.
"Struggle" is a strong word. You're playing against a team with three offensive No. 1s that led to their teams to an NBA Finals and a fourth guy who might be the second most efficient SG in the history of the NBA. To suggest they're going to "struggle" is a pretty strong statement. Durant has put up huge numbers against great defenders and Reed won two Finals MVP awards being guarded by Wilt freakin' Chamberlain.


And if Skaro is going to suggest DPOY Cooper can't guard Durant, let's not forget Tony Allen guarded Durant in the 1st round of this playoffs and held him with below average shooting %'s. Cooper is one inch taller and will bother Durant in the same way that he can get up and under him and cause turnovers.
I'm not going to say he "can't" guard Durant. Cooper and Pippen will defend Durant as well as anyone possibly could defend him. But great offense beats great defense more often than not, and as I've stated multiple times, Durant still put up 30 points a game on 44% shooting against Allen. If those are the numbers I'm getting out of him, I'm pretty sure I'm winning that series.


As for Manu, yeah he might see Petrovic on him at times but let's not pretend Manu's going to go off for 20 points in a quarter just because Petrovic is guarding him. He's never done that. And even if you are going to bring up my defense of him in the last round, I never said he was an all world scorer. He isn't and he's not going to kill us by scoring a ton on Petrovic in those limited minutes.
I don't think he would either. But you said it yourself that Manu makes those players around him substantially better and that's the kind of impact he can have on this series. Maybe it's an extra wide open 3-pointer or a couple of drives to the basket that he wouldn't have gotten against a better defender, but Petrovic guarding Manu for any stretch of the game will be a weakness.


In that case, we cross match Cooper on Durant for some of those minutes. Cooper can play SG but guard Durant on the other end. We have absolutely no problem putting former DPOY Cooper (clearly better than one Tony Allen who guarded Durant well in the 1st round) on Durant.
But your're missing the point that I was trying to make entirely. I'm assuming (based on what Jamal said) that Pippen is guarding Durant every single minute that Durant is on the floor. I'm asking how you're going to get Kiki and Petrovic more minutes to provide that offensive touch off the bench. Given that you're starting two sub par offensive players in your starting five, you're going to need that spark in your rotation and with that lineup I just posted, there are going to be very few minutes for those two if you play Pippen 40 minutes a night at SF.


Also, while we're at it, let's look at some numbers for Durant going up against Kawhi Leonard, who is nothing compared to the GOAT wing defender Pippen:

So if Kawhi Leonard is successfully deterring Durant from shooting at the basket while Durant has yet to draw a single shooting foul against Leonard, what will Scottie Pippen the GOAT wing defender do against Durant? As KoB said, Scottie Pippen is Kawhi on steroids and Durant is having a poor series against Kawhi right now (21.5 ppg on 45.7% FG) so why isn't it reasonable to expect Durant to average even less than what he's averaging against the Spurs right now? And if Durant isn't getting Skaro 25+ ppg, they're in a lot of trouble. Kawhi is holding him to 21.5 ppg and it's likely that Pippen, a far better defender than Leonard, could hold him to even less than what Leonard is holding him too.
This would be a great point if we weren't talking about a two game sample size in which the Thunder were already blown out midway through the third quarters and they were missing their best offensive big man.

Of course Durant isn't getting any easy baskets around the rim when Duncan and Splitter are constantly hanging out around the rim and are completely unafraid of giving up shots to the likes of Collison and Perkins. Without Ibaka to stretch the floor, the Spurs bigs can collapse in the paint and prevent any easy shot attempts. That's not the case in this series as Willis Reed was a very good mid-range jump shooter.

PatsSoxKnicks
05-22-2014, 04:50 PM
Miller and Bell are laughable as players compared to Scott. And Petrovic/Cooper and Kiki both have clear advantages over Miller and Bell too. In fact, the fact that Miller and Bell will be getting minutes- one role player on a team that never won ****- is a clear weakness that Santa Monica will exploit. And the idea that Miller would win a matchup with Kiki is laughable considering Kiki was a near 30 ppg scorer in his prime while Miller's best was about half of that. And Cooper vs. Raja Bell? It's not even a comparison. One is a former DPOY and the other is a 2x all-defense (one 2nd team) that never won **** as a role player. And we even like the matchup of Petrovic vs. Bell since Bell's offense isn't going to be able to take advantage of Petrovic's lack of D. Likewise, we're confident Petrovic can still get off good shots against a defender who has only been on 2 all-defense teams, one of which was a 2nd team. Compare that to our defenders and it's a joke.

PatsSoxKnicks
05-22-2014, 05:05 PM
I feel like I've been on the defensive this entire time (mainly because only one of use bothered to do a write-up). Let's turn the tables for a few minutes and address Santa Montica's offense. They're suggesting that we'll basically be playing 4 on 5 in terms of offense, but is that really the case here? Look at their starting offense and you'll see one phenomenal offensive player, two damn good offensive players, one mediocre offensive player and one completely one-dimensional offensive player. Meanwhile, we've got two phenomenal offensive players, two damn good offensive players and one completely one-dimensional offensive player.

Whatever "issues" Horace Grant and Michael Cooper have, they more then get made up for with the bench scoring of Kiki and Petrovic. And those issues are greatly exaggerated. Cooper was a pretty good playmaker (averaged 5.6 assists per game in a 3-year stretch) and as we already pointed out, Cooper shot 38+% in 3 different seasons, with one of those seasons coming during a title run. He's an excellent 3 and D player and besides just providing the 3s, he's also a great playmaker. We won't be afraid to utilize his playmaking abilities.

As for Horace Grant, he averaged 15 ppg in his prime and was the 3rd leading scorer on the first run of the dynastic Bulls. If the Bulls were able to 3-peat with him being the 3rd leading scorer on the team, we have full confidence, he can be a 4th/5th option on Santa Monica.



(And no, Ben Wallace is not a completely useless player offensively as many would suggest. The man averaged damn near 4 offensive rebounds per 36 minutes over his career and his high rate of blocks and steals will create a ton of transition opportunities on the offensive end.)

They have yet to address how that team is supposed to gel offensively with our defensive gameplan. It's obvious that Payton will give Billups a major headache and we plan to double Moses with Reed or Manu every chance we get. Are they really going to suggest that Michael Cooper or Horace Grant are going to carry them offensively all game long? Because I seriously doubt the validity of that. And even if Pippen gets a one-on-one matchup with Durant, the guy's going to be exhausted from guarding KD 40 minutes every night. What can they honestly expect from him offensively every game? 25/5/5? Because that's what they're going to need to win this series, and I don't think he's capable of doing that efficiently over a seven game series.

Sure, they can counter their lack of offense by swapping out Cooper for Petrovic, but we can just as easily put Payton or Bell on him to limit his open looks on the perimeter. Plus, they need Cooper on the floor as much as possible to defend, Payton, Manu and Durant.

Ben Wallace is one dimensional because we have the rebounding to keep him off the boards. It's widely known Moses is one of the greatest rebounders ever (17.6 rpg in his best season) and so Moses should be able to keep Ben off the offensive glass, which means he offers literally nothing else offensively.

As I said, we can bring in Petrovic and Kiki for offense and because we have 2 game changing defenders on our team, we can ALWAYS have one of those defenders out there with Kiki or Petrovic, therefore leaving them to cover your weakest option offensively. And as I mentioned earlier, Manu is not going to go off for 30 in the few mins Petrovic guards him.

Additionally, when Durant does get his rest, we can bring in Kiki at the 3 and move Pippen to the 4 where Kiki can exploit Mike Miller's lack of defense and just go ham. Or if you leave Reed in, we can leave in Horace at the 4. But we do think Pippen is capable of defending Reed for a few mins at a time.

Also, who says Pippen has to guard Durant 40 mins? We have Michael Cooper too, who given the troubles Durant had with Allen, can definitely guard Durant for stretches of the game. This means Pippen will be allowed to focus on his offense when he gets a rest from guarding Durant. It also means, Pippen will always be fresh as a defender and he won't be expending as much energy because he won't be shadowing Durant all game long. And that means he will be able to put up 25-5-5.

mightybosstone
05-22-2014, 05:16 PM
Also, I want to address this whole idea that Byron Scott was some scrub/glorified role player on the Showtime Lakers like Skaro keeps trying to insinuate.

The Showtime Lakers won ships in 85, 87 and 88. In 85, I can agree that he was more of a role player BUT he still averaged 16 ppg with a TS% of 58.7%. And his 16 ppg ended up being 1 point off from Worthy's 17 ppg that he averaged, indicating that he wasn't exactly far off from being the #3 option on that title team. And in fact, in the playoffs, he actually upped his averages to 16.9 ppg and just 0.6 ppg off from Magic's scoring with a 56% TS%.

In 87, he was in a fairly similar role. But what Santa Monica really wants to emphasize is Scott's role in the 88 Lakers title run. Scott LED THE TEAM IN SCORING, averaging 21.7 ppg during the regular season. That's right- he led the team in scoring, averaging more than both Magic, Kareem and Worthy in that season. He also finished 2nd on the team in Win Shares. In the playoffs, he was more of a co #2 option with Magic averaging 19.6 ppg, clearly ahead of a declined Kareem who was averaging only 14 ppg by that playoffs. And he had a great 58.3% TS% during that playoff run.

So if Scott was good enough to lead a title winning team in scoring during the regular season and act as a Co #2 option in the playoffs, averaging almost 20 ppg, how the hell is he a glorified role player like you try to make him out to be? Furthermore, in BOTH the 85 and 88 title runs, he had USG rates above 20, indicating that he was taking more than the average share of shots for a title team. You're continued diminishing of Scott is laughable. He's proven he can be a #1 scorer on a TITLE WINNING TEAM, who on your bench can claim anything close to that?

Additionally, we aren't afraid to play Scott at SG where we can go with a Billups-Scott backcourt that provides a ton of ship experience as well as excellent spacing. Scott's 3-year prime of 19.4 ppg from 87-89, including a title in there proves that you have to take him more seriously than you have.

That was a lot of work to defend a guy who's only playing 10 minutes a game in this series. Also, he was great in 87-88, but he led the team in scoring one time his entire career and he was never a better player than Magic. Then in the playoffs, he was outplayed by both Magic and Worthy, essentially making him the No. 3 guy. Also, you're really playing him out of position at PG and did I mention that he's only playing 10 minutes a game?

Also, c'mon man. There's no one on my bench capable of leading a championship team in scoring? How about Jo Jo White? He was 0.1 PPG behind Cowens from leading the 75-76 Celtics in scoring and he led them in scoring and assists in the playoffs. Oh... and he was named Finals MVP that year, so there's that.

Pft.... Forgetting Jo Jo. You're better than that, PSK. :pity:

PatsSoxKnicks
05-22-2014, 05:29 PM
In regards to our rotation, you can be certain one of Cooper or Pippen will be on the floor at all times guarding Durant. The other player will be either Petrovic or Kiki or we will play Cooper and Pippen at the same time.

Also, as pointed out earlier, none of our options are complete duds on offense like Ben Wallace is. Whoever Skaro doubles off of, we'll make them pay with either a 3 (Billups, Cooper, Pippen, Petrovic, Kiki, Scott, and Lillard can all hit 3s) or with a mid-range jump shot (which both Grant and Green can make). If Skaro is going to use Willis Reed's ability to hit mid-range shots as floor spacing, then it's clear that Santa Monica has an advantage there since all our players have the ability to hit a jumpshot- which is not the case with Skaro since Ben Wallace can't hit anything outside of a dunk.

Also, with the triangle- which emphasizes spacing and offensive rebounding- Santa Monica is perfectly suited to take advantage of Skaro, which will get worn down on the boards (Moses might be one of the greatest rebounders ever and Horace as I showed finished top 5 in ORB% from 91-93) and yet won't be able to double Moses because of our perimeter shooters. In fact, with Santa Monica's combination of offensive rebounding and tenacious defense from all five positions (all five of our starters are all-defense with 2 of the 5 greatest perimeter defenders on our team), we'll simply wear down a Skaro team that is leaner and lighter. Manu and Durant are not physical players and by throwing defenders like Cooper and Pippen at them, we'll wear them down by having to make them work for their points and also having to help rebound because both Moses and Horace are great on the offensive glass.

Our team will simply wear down Skaro with our physicality (excellent defense + excellent offensive rebounding) and despite that physicality, we still have a ton of players who can space the floor.

KnicksorBust
05-22-2014, 05:38 PM
I will not be clicking any link I see that has the name "Lillard" attached to it for several years. It's just too painful. Besides, he doesn't even matter in this series as he's essentially your third point guard. So any soul crushing, heart wrenching shots (that may or may not have caused me to cry for a little bit) won't really matter in this series.

:sigh:

I never said that. Bad quote job outta you.


Manu may have some parts of the game with Drazen Petrovic on him. He's not going to explode for 20 points in one quarter just because Drazen was on him.



As for Manu, yeah he might see Petrovic on him at times but let's not pretend Manu's going to go off for 20 points in a quarter just because Petrovic is guarding him.

Is there an echo in here?

mightybosstone
05-22-2014, 05:41 PM
Whatever "issues" Horace Grant and Michael Cooper have, they more then get made up for with the bench scoring of Kiki and Petrovic. And those issues are greatly exaggerated. Cooper was a pretty good playmaker (averaged 5.6 assists per game in a 3-year stretch) and as we already pointed out, Cooper shot 38+% in 3 different seasons, with one of those seasons coming during a title run. He's an excellent 3 and D player and besides just providing the 3s, he's also a great playmaker. We won't be afraid to utilize his playmaking abilities.
Except if Pippen and Cooper are playing nearly 80 combined minutes a game, Kiki and Petrovic are going to get little playing time at all. Unless you're willing to give Kiki some big minutes as a stretch 4, but that's a pretty dangerous play on your part, because he'll get absolutely slaughtered on the glass and defensively against Reed or Perkins.


As for Horace Grant, he averaged 15 ppg in his prime and was the 3rd leading scorer on the first run of the dynastic Bulls. If the Bulls were able to 3-peat with him being the 3rd leading scorer on the team, we have full confidence, he can be a 4th/5th option on Santa Monica.
He averaged 15 a game for one season, which just so happened to be the year Michael retired to play basketball. Otherwise he was a 12-14 PPG guy who never again topped a 17% USG% in his entire career. I'd totally buy him as a No. 3 guy in a regular NBA re-draft, but not in this game. He's a really weak 4th option offensively.


Ben Wallace is one dimensional because we have the rebounding to keep him off the boards. It's widely known Moses is one of the greatest rebounders ever (17.6 rpg in his best season) and so Moses should be able to keep Ben off the offensive glass, which means he offers literally nothing else offensively.
This is just not true. Moses may be 4th in career TRB%, but Wallace is 10th, so let's not pretend he's some slouch in the rebounding department. Also, Moses' strength was on the offensive glass (2nd in ORB%), not defensively (44th in DRB%). Meanwhile, Wallace was 16th in career ORB%. So Wallace may not be getting four ORB per game, but he's going to get a few putbacks and there's going to be a hell of a battle on both ends of the floor for rebounds.


As I said, we can bring in Petrovic and Kiki for offense and because we have 2 game changing defenders on our team, we can ALWAYS have one of those defenders out there with Kiki or Petrovic, therefore leaving them to cover your weakest option offensively. And as I mentioned earlier, Manu is not going to go off for 30 in the few mins Petrovic guards him.
But how many minutes are we talking here, and where are they going to be playing? Because I'm not concerned with Kiki or Petrovic getting 10-12 minutes a game against me. I think my bench can keep up well enough with yours for 10-12 minutes a game, especially considering my bench is superior defensively.


Additionally, when Durant does get his rest, we can bring in Kiki at the 3 and move Pippen to the 4 where Kiki can exploit Mike Miller's lack of defense and just go ham. Or if you leave Reed in, we can leave in Horace at the 4. But we do think Pippen is capable of defending Reed for a few mins at a time.
See, you're TOTALLY contradicting your partner here. Jamal said he was going to stick Pippen on Durant pretty much every minute of every game and would go small ball to adjust if we went small ball with Durant at the 4. Now YOU'RE trying to go small ball against ME. You guys need to talk this over, because you're contradicting yourselves. Also, do you really trust Pippen to defend Willis Reed? I don't buy that.


Also, who says Pippen has to guard Durant 40 mins?
Your partner did. I believe the phrase he used was "Pippen will follow Durant to hell and back."


This means Pippen will be allowed to focus on his offense when he gets a rest from guarding Durant. It also means, Pippen will always be fresh as a defender and he won't be expending as much energy because he won't be shadowing Durant all game long. And that means he will be able to put up 25-5-5.
No way in hell. He never averaged 25/5/5 in his career. Neither in the regular season or the playoffs. And you're expecting him to do it in a playoff series against a good defensive team AND guard Kevin Durant for 30+ minutes a night. That's not realistic. 21/5/7? Maybe. But even that's going to be a bit of stretch.

mightybosstone
05-22-2014, 05:46 PM
I never said that. Bad quote job outta you.

My bad. I think I had accidentally multi-quoted you, and when I meant to quote PSK's statement, I accidentally quoted you instead.

Ebbs
05-22-2014, 05:49 PM
Whens voting close?

Jam is right. Durant's career is over in this game. There's no what if factor.

Did the whole Santa Monica 70's player thing get sorted out?

PatsSoxKnicks
05-22-2014, 05:49 PM
"Struggle" is a strong word. You're playing against a team with three offensive No. 1s that led to their teams to an NBA Finals and a fourth guy who might be the second most efficient SG in the history of the NBA. To suggest they're going to "struggle" is a pretty strong statement. Durant has put up huge numbers against great defenders and Reed won two Finals MVP awards being guarded by Wilt freakin' Chamberlain.

Struggle might be a strong word but how many times do you see a team where every player in the starting 5 has made an all-defensive team? And Durant seems to be struggling (yes I think 21 ppg for him is struggling) against the current Spurs, who are nowhere near us defensively. And Reed may have went up against Wilt but what about the rest of that team defensively? Was the rest of that team all-defensive team members at every position?



I'm not going to say he "can't" guard Durant. Cooper and Pippen will defend Durant as well as anyone possibly could defend him. But great offense beats great defense more often than not, and as I've stated multiple times, Durant still put up 30 points a game on 44% shooting against Allen. If those are the numbers I'm getting out of him, I'm pretty sure I'm winning that series.

But you aren't getting those numbers out of him because Cooper is clearly superior to Allen. It's not even a contest. Cooper's got a DPOY, something you rarely see from a wing defender. And Pippen is widely regarded as the greatest wing defender ever. So you aren't taking the #'s Durant put up against Tony Allen, a mere mortal compared to Pippen and Cooper, and extrapolating them out. He's putting up worse numbers since these are all-time defenders.



I don't think he would either. But you said it yourself that Manu makes those players around him substantially better and that's the kind of impact he can have on this series. Maybe it's an extra wide open 3-pointer or a couple of drives to the basket that he wouldn't have gotten against a better defender, but Petrovic guarding Manu for any stretch of the game will be a weakness.

Sure but again, we're comfortable with that because we don't feel Manu is going to torch him scoring wise. And it's definitely possible to hide a defender when the other 4 defenders you're playing with are all-defense. I mean most championship teams do have 1 "bad" defender on their team who they are able to hide because everyone else is great. With the team defense around him (and Kiki), we are fully confident that no one on Skaro will torch us when Kiki or Petrovic are out there.



But your're missing the point that I was trying to make entirely. I'm assuming (based on what Jamal said) that Pippen is guarding Durant every single minute that Durant is on the floor. I'm asking how you're going to get Kiki and Petrovic more minutes to provide that offensive touch off the bench. Given that you're starting two sub par offensive players in your starting five, you're going to need that spark in your rotation and with that lineup I just posted, there are going to be very few minutes for those two if you play Pippen 40 minutes a night at SF.

Maybe Jamal and I aren't on the same page here but I don't think we need to put Pippen on Durant 40 mins a night. As I said, Cooper can defend him and by doing that, we keep Pippen more fresh to be able to play balls to the wall defense while he is on Durant and yet also be able to produce offensively. In fact, given how confident we are in Cooper's defense, if the game were to dictate that we need more offense, we wouldn't mind giving Cooper more minutes on Durant. That won't be our strategy at the get go but again, game situations determine how we decide our rotations.

And as I mentioned earlier, Kiki and/or Petrovic will always be out there when 1 of our all-time great defenders is out there. And Pippen is more than adequate enough offensively- let's not forget he was the #2 option on the greatest dynasty of all-time. And despite MJ being the GOAT, I'm sure there were games where he didn't have his best stuff and Pippen picked up the slack (ok that was probably a rare occurrence but i'm sure it happened).



This would be a great point if we weren't talking about a two game sample size in which the Thunder were already blown out midway through the third quarters and they were missing their best offensive big man.

Of course Durant isn't getting any easy baskets around the rim when Duncan and Splitter are constantly hanging out around the rim and are completely unafraid of giving up shots to the likes of Collison and Perkins. Without Ibaka to stretch the floor, the Spurs bigs can collapse in the paint and prevent any easy shot attempts. That's not the case in this series as Willis Reed was a very good mid-range jump shooter.

It still counts and it's still Kawhi on him. And we have the bigs around the basket in Moses and Horace that can deter Durant in a similar fashion. And with Ben Wallace on the floor, we also can double Durant if necessary while being completely unafraid of Ben scoring. Maybe we can't help off Reed, but we can clog the lane with Moses there since Ben Wallace is a dud on offense. We can still apply many of the same principles that the Spurs are executing because a) Wallace sucks on offense and b) we have a great defender on Durant at all times forcing him into difficult shots.

PatsSoxKnicks
05-22-2014, 05:50 PM
Whens voting close?

Jam is right. Durant's career is over in this game. There's no what if factor.

Did the whole Santa Monica 70's player thing get sorted out?

Moses is our 70s guy.

Shammyguy3
05-22-2014, 06:22 PM
love the debate going on in this matchup. Still on the fence about it, but i'll be voting shortly fellas

mightybosstone
05-22-2014, 06:59 PM
Struggle might be a strong word but how many times do you see a team where every player in the starting 5 has made an all-defensive team? And Durant seems to be struggling (yes I think 21 ppg for him is struggling) against the current Spurs, who are nowhere near us defensively. And Reed may have went up against Wilt but what about the rest of that team defensively? Was the rest of that team all-defensive team members at every position?
I fail to see your point here. On the flip side, how many teams in the history of the NBA have two different MVPs and two DPOYs playing on the same starting five in their primes? This is all hypothetical. And while your defense is very good, I fail to see how it's substantially better than mine. Based on your and Jamal's weak logic of using All-Defensive Teams and ring numbers, I've got far more DPOY awards in my starting five than you do. :shrug:


But you aren't getting those numbers out of him because Cooper is clearly superior to Allen. It's not even a contest. Cooper's got a DPOY, something you rarely see from a wing defender. And Pippen is widely regarded as the greatest wing defender ever. So you aren't taking the #'s Durant put up against Tony Allen, a mere mortal compared to Pippen and Cooper, and extrapolating them out. He's putting up worse numbers since these are all-time defenders.
Is Cooper a substantially better perimeter defender than Allen? Because I'm not sure how you prove that aside from the fact that he won a DPOY award and has more All-Defensive awards. And even if he was better, how much substantially better can he be? 1-2 PPG worth? 2-3 FG% points worth? You guys are the ones who keep bringing up Allen's performance against Durant, not me. And yet when I bring up Durant's numbers in that series, all I keep hearing is how much better Cooper was than Allen. If that's the case, then don't use Allen as your comparison.


Sure but again, we're comfortable with that because we don't feel Manu is going to torch him scoring wise. And it's definitely possible to hide a defender when the other 4 defenders you're playing with are all-defense. I mean most championship teams do have 1 "bad" defender on their team who they are able to hide because everyone else is great. With the team defense around him (and Kiki), we are fully confident that no one on Skaro will torch us when Kiki or Petrovic are out there.
You guys keep using All-defense as a crutch, but I think Malone is a bit overrated as a defender. Consider the guy made two All-defensive teams in his entire career and he was in the league for 20 freaking seasons. And consider the fact that the Rockets were one of the worst defensive teams in the 70s and 80s with Moses on the roster. They were toward the bottom of the league in DRtg and points allowed almost every one of those seasons.

Also, post defense >>>>> perimeter defense. And Skaro is clearly a superior defensive team in the paint as we have two of the best defensive centers of their eras in our front court.



And as I mentioned earlier, Kiki and/or Petrovic will always be out there when 1 of our all-time great defenders is out there. And Pippen is more than adequate enough offensively- let's not forget he was the #2 option on the greatest dynasty of all-time. And despite MJ being the GOAT, I'm sure there were games where he didn't have his best stuff and Pippen picked up the slack (ok that was probably a rare occurrence but i'm sure it happened).
Yes. One of the greatest No. 2 options. Except he's going to have to play like a No. 1 in this series, because I openly admit that we plan to double Moses as much as possible whenever he gets the ball in the low post. If we're giving Pippen the one-on-one treatment, he's going to have to step up and be that guy. I don't think he's capable of it, and history agrees with me.


It still counts and it's still Kawhi on him. And we have the bigs around the basket in Moses and Horace that can deter Durant in a similar fashion. And with Ben Wallace on the floor, we also can double Durant if necessary while being completely unafraid of Ben scoring. Maybe we can't help off Reed, but we can clog the lane with Moses there since Ben Wallace is a dud on offense. We can still apply many of the same principles that the Spurs are executing because a) Wallace sucks on offense and b) we have a great defender on Durant at all times forcing him into difficult shots.
It's two games! If you dig hard enough you can find two poor offensive performances from any NBA player in any postseason. Actually it's one game when you really think about it. Because Durant put up 28/9/5 on 53/57/100 shooting percentages in Game 1. And it's not like the rest of the Thunder team played well in Game 2. EVERYBODY was terrible. Westbrook scored 15 points on 24 shots!

Hell, if the best argument you have against Durant being able to score in the playoffs against Pippen is a one-game sample size, I'm really not very worried whatsoever.

mightybosstone
05-22-2014, 07:03 PM
Moses is our 70s guy.

I'm okay with this because Moses won an MVP in the 70s. If you win an MVP in any decade, that player should be able to count for that decade.

However, you still haven't addressed the awesomeness that is Jo Jo White, Finals MVP extraordinaire.

KnicksorBust
05-22-2014, 07:55 PM
For the record, debates like this is what makes these games fun. That will be the only part I miss.

PatsSoxKnicks
05-22-2014, 08:07 PM
That was a lot of work to defend a guy who's only playing 10 minutes a game in this series. Also, he was great in 87-88, but he led the team in scoring one time his entire career and he was never a better player than Magic. Then in the playoffs, he was outplayed by both Magic and Worthy, essentially making him the No. 3 guy. Also, you're really playing him out of position at PG and did I mention that he's only playing 10 minutes a game?

Also, c'mon man. There's no one on my bench capable of leading a championship team in scoring? How about Jo Jo White? He was 0.1 PPG behind Cowens from leading the 75-76 Celtics in scoring and he led them in scoring and assists in the playoffs. Oh... and he was named Finals MVP that year, so there's that.

Pft.... Forgetting Jo Jo. You're better than that, PSK. :pity:

Still, even so, a #3 guy on a dynastic title winning team is still pretty damn good for one of our bench players. And I wasn't arguing better player than Magic or Worthy, I was arguing from a scoring standpoint. As for the 10 mins a game, these things are always fluid. We may go into the game planning to play him 10 mins a game but if he gets hot and/or we find he has a matchup advantage, we have no problem playing him more.

And he's not really out of position at PG, he played both PG and SG throughout his career, which actually gives us some really good versatility in that we can play him and Billups together if we so choose.

You're right, I did forget Jo Jo, my bad. Ok, so he's clearly the best player on your bench but after that there is a significant drop off between the two benches. We're willing to start either Petrovic or Cooper depending on how the series is going and so regardless of which one is starting, the other is a better player than Raja Bell. In the case of Cooper, this is extremely obvious. But in the case of Petrovic, consider:
Bell's top WS season: 6.8 and his top PER season: 13.8
For Petrovic, despite only having 4 seasons in the NBA, his top WS season: 8.4 with another 7.7 season and a top PER of 17.3.
You yourself keep saying that great offense beats great defense and in the case of Bell vs. Petrovic where Bell isn't exactly an all-time great defender, we have no doubt that Petrovic can beat Bell offensively, especially when you consider the amount of good looks he'll get off those Moses double teams.

Then Mike Miller vs. Kiki. This is a laughable debate. Let's be honest here, Mike Miller is a poor defender in an all-time sense. He might not be as bad as Kiki but Kiki also provides significantly more offense than Miller does. Miller is not going off for 20 points on anyone in this matchup, even if we put a traffic cone on him. Kiki can no doubt go off for 20 points on Miller, even in limited minutes. But in case this comparison wasn't obvious enough,
Miller's top WS season: 7.4 (worse than Petrovic's 2 best season I might add) and his top PER: 17.2
Kiki has 3 different seasons with over 10 WS peaking out at 11. And his top PER is 23.6 with another 20+ PER season as well.
Again, a laughable comparison offensively and defensively, Miller isn't burning anyone. Kiki will come in and dominate this matchup.

And then Sam Perkins vs. AC Green. Again, advantage Santa Monica. Both players are obviously mid-teen scorers but Green offers much more defense with his all-defensive team and also, he offers much more championship experience. And yet again, looking at the numbers:
Green's top WS season: 9.4 with his best PER at 17.8
Perkins top WS season: 8.5 with his best PER at 17.6
A bit closer than the previous 2 matchups but again, add in Green's defense and Santa Monica has a clear advantage here.

Finally, while Skaro might have an advantage with Tyson Chandler over P.J. Brown, the one difference is that P.J. is backing up a top 12 player all-time while none of Skaro's backups can say the same. Additionally, P.J. has had a 10+ WS season with a peak PER of 17.6, which is pretty much the same as what you get from Tyson (who has had better PER seasons). Regardless, one difference is that Tyson has no offense outside the restricted area whereas P.J. can actually hit a jump shot and provide some spacing.

In fact, this is a critical reason for another advantage Santa Monica can exploit. Skaro has essentially the exact same player as Ben Wallace backing him up in Chandler. While Chandler might be a bit better offensively, they both can't hit anything outside of a dunk or putback. Neither has a jump shot and both can be left alone unguarded to help on other players. ALL of Santa Monica's players can hit a jump shot, including our backups, which means you can't double on Moses and not pay for it since every player we put on the court will be able to space the floor a bit.

Also, in reference to Jo Jo White, he's a bit overrated when you look at his peak WS and PER seasons. And keep in mind he has a career TS% of 48.1%. In fact, look at Jo Jo's top WS season (8.0) and his top PER season (16.2) and he wouldn't even make our team, never mind play a key 6th man role. Heck, Damian Lillard has a better peak season than Jo Jo White (9.6 WS, 18.6 PER) and yet we're not even playing him.

Jo Jo might have a Finals MVP but outside of that his career is that of a chucker. In fact, if you look at his playoff career TS% (48.7%), it makes you wonder how the guy got a Finals MVP (could be undeserved). Wait, no, it is undeserved- compare the numbers of Cowens to Jo Jo in the Finals (http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1976_finals.html#BOS-PHO) and it's clear that Jo Jo's one Finals MVP is completely undeserved. And thats his biggest accomplishment because outside of that he's a chucker with atrocious TS%'s throughout his career.

So even your best bench player is a bit overrated and in the context of all the other advantages we have on the bench, our bench is significantly better and it's not even arguable. I've shown the numbers above and it's not really close in many cases.

And if we really want to do the Scott-Jo Jo comparison, well again, not close:
Jo Jo's top WS season: 8.0 and top PER season: 16.2
Scott's top WS season: 10.7 and top PER season: 19.2

So when voting, keep in mind that Skaro's best bench player wouldn't even make Santa Monica's team when you look at their peak play in terms of WS and PER. That's a fact that is not even debatable.

PatsSoxKnicks
05-22-2014, 08:15 PM
Also, I want to point out that I think everyone would agree that PG defense is the least important aspect of defending the perimeter and that is where Skaro is strongest. However their SG and SF are decent defenders but neither will ever be confused with being all-time great defensively. They aren't liabilities but they aren't exactly strengths either. Meanwhile, Santa Monica boasts perhaps the best perimeter defense ever compiled in this game with Cooper and Pippen. And while our post defense isn't as good as Ben Wallace and Reed, both Grant and Moses have made all-defensive teams and are clearly a strong defensive frontline in their own right. The gap in our post defense compared to Skaro's post defense is nowhere near the gap in our perimeter defense vs. Skaro's perimeter defense.

Also, with our ability to hit jump shots at all five positions, we can keep the paint less clogged than on the other side where Moses can camp out in the paint because Ben Wallace is as much offense as I am. Whoever is driving the lane against Santa Monica will have to go up against their own defender PLUS Moses who will be waiting there because Wallace sucks on offense. And so, Skaro's drivers will be constantly facing double teams near the basket, therefore turning them into a jump shooting team. With our excellent perimeter defense, even the jump shots will come contested and be difficult shots. Anyone who has seen this Spurs-Thunder series can see how much clogging the paint has hurt Durant and the Thunder offense by turning him into a lower% jump shooter. The same thing will happen here because Ben Wallace is a nothing on offense. Santa Monica can afford to clog the paint and Skaro can't. That's a KEY difference in this series.

xxplayerxx23
05-22-2014, 08:21 PM
Always love a matchup like this so much debate love it. Really tough I'll read all the points over and make a choice leaning towards skaro

The_Jamal
05-22-2014, 08:32 PM
For the record, debates like this is what makes these games fun. That will be the only part I miss.

PSK and Jam BRING THE HEAT. :)

shinjirod
05-22-2014, 08:33 PM
Usually don't comment on these, but always read. Also feels kinda awkward to vote against fellow Rocket MBT, but IMO, Santa Monica suffers from having too much talent from decades ago. Durant's ability is fresh on our minds because he's just peaking and had an MVP season, but Moses is an all timer. Pippen wasn't Jordan, sure, but he was a top 3 player in the league during a decade where the NBA had a huge list of superstars. No one remembers Drazen Petrovic but he was great.

I think, without a doubt, Santa Monica would win this series.

The_Jamal
05-22-2014, 08:40 PM
Something I'd like to point out is how much we can punish Skaro if he decides to double Moses, that we can make him pay with superior outside shooting. MBT has tried to make it seem like we either have to go with Moses or die trying, but that's certainly not the case. Either we get Moses with 1on1 match-ups, which is a huge advantage, or you're leaving Billups, Drazen, Cooper, Pippen, Kiki, Scott, Grant open for jumpers, all of which we're extremely comfortable with taking. If anything, Skaro is far more dependent on Durant for a top-tier series than we are with Moses. And as we've said already, Pippen+Coop is an incredibly tough match-up for him to deal with.

What Santa Monica does is put the ball in the hoop at an efficient rate. Scottie Pippen is our least efficient scorer at 55% TS, of whom will actually be taking shots offensively. Everyone else is at least 58%+. So MBT can talk about Manu all he wants, but Santa Monica can shoot lights out and is very efficient in all aspects of scoring.

PatsSoxKnicks
05-22-2014, 08:42 PM
I fail to see your point here. On the flip side, how many teams in the history of the NBA have two different MVPs and two DPOYs playing on the same starting five in their primes? This is all hypothetical. And while your defense is very good, I fail to see how it's substantially better than mine. Based on your and Jamal's weak logic of using All-Defensive Teams and ring numbers, I've got far more DPOY awards in my starting five than you do. :shrug:

The only reason you can make the claim of having more DPOYs is because somehow Pippen never won one. And I think everybody would be willing to admit that makes no sense if guys like Cooper or Payton were able to win one. I think most people would acknowledge Pippen is a greater defender than either Cooper or GP.

Also, for what it's worth, we still have one more MVP than you guys: Moses 3 > Reed's 1 + Durant's 1 ;)



Is Cooper a substantially better perimeter defender than Allen? Because I'm not sure how you prove that aside from the fact that he won a DPOY award and has more All-Defensive awards. And even if he was better, how much substantially better can he be? 1-2 PPG worth? 2-3 FG% points worth? You guys are the ones who keep bringing up Allen's performance against Durant, not me. And yet when I bring up Durant's numbers in that series, all I keep hearing is how much better Cooper was than Allen. If that's the case, then don't use Allen as your comparison.

Well Allen has made 3 all-defensive teams and has no DPOY while Cooper made 8 all-defensive teams and has a DPOY award so I think it's fair to say he's significantly better than TA.

And yes Durant had good counting #'s in that series but a 45% FG% for someone who normally shoots up above 50%? And then extrapolate that out with a better defender in Cooper and I think it's clear Durant's numbers are either not as efficient as you'd like or he's hovering around the 21.5 ppg that he's at in this Spurs series. Either one is bad for you.



You guys keep using All-defense as a crutch, but I think Malone is a bit overrated as a defender. Consider the guy made two All-defensive teams in his entire career and he was in the league for 20 freaking seasons. And consider the fact that the Rockets were one of the worst defensive teams in the 70s and 80s with Moses on the roster. They were toward the bottom of the league in DRtg and points allowed almost every one of those seasons.

Also, post defense >>>>> perimeter defense. And Skaro is clearly a superior defensive team in the paint as we have two of the best defensive centers of their eras in our front court.

Two all-defensive teams is still a significant accomplishment though. There are many Centers who have careers who don't make a single all-defensive team. We aren't claiming he's Hakeem or the Admiral on defense but we are claiming he's a + on defense and can anchor a defense. And that was proven when his team won the championship in 83 with him as the rim protector (in dominating fashion I might add...). So I don't think it's a question that he's a good enough defender to anchor a championship team when he's already done it. And that Sixers team finished 5th in DRtg during the season and tied for 1st during the playoffs in DRtg. So if thats not evidence that he can anchor our team, I don't know what is.

Addressed this earlier but our post defense is closer to yours than your perimeter defense is to ours. Our perimeter defense flat out ***** on yours. And as I mentioned, all-defensive members at every position gives us the advantage on defense.



Yes. One of the greatest No. 2 options. Except he's going to have to play like a No. 1 in this series, because I openly admit that we plan to double Moses as much as possible whenever he gets the ball in the low post. If we're giving Pippen the one-on-one treatment, he's going to have to step up and be that guy. I don't think he's capable of it, and history agrees with me.

History agrees with you? Wtf? He isn't playing as the #1 option here and your argument makes no sense. Are you asserting that Michael Jordan never faced double teams before? Because you seem to be insinuating that because if MJ faced double teams, don't you think that would mean Pippen would have had to step it up for the GOAT modern dynasty? History clearly agrees with us because PIPPEN WON 6 SHIPS AS THE #2 OPTION WHERE HE'S A #2 OPTION ON OUR TEAM BEHIND MOSES. How is that not clear? I'm completely lost as to what you're trying to argue here. You're trying to say that by doubling Moses that makes Pippen the #1 option? Wouldn't all the teams who played the Bulls dynasty have done the same thing with regards to MJ? Obviously Pippen stepped up in that role. And he's clearly not the #1 option when your whole defense is based around stopping Moses. And CLEARLY Pippen did just fine when he faced 1 on 1 situations as a #2 option on those Bulls teams or are you claiming otherwise? Because 6 championships severely disagrees with you.



It's two games! If you dig hard enough you can find two poor offensive performances from any NBA player in any postseason. Actually it's one game when you really think about it. Because Durant put up 28/9/5 on 53/57/100 shooting percentages in Game 1. And it's not like the rest of the Thunder team played well in Game 2. EVERYBODY was terrible. Westbrook scored 15 points on 24 shots!

Hell, if the best argument you have against Durant being able to score in the playoffs against Pippen is a one-game sample size, I'm really not very worried whatsoever.

But it's not just that, it's also the series against Tony Allen. We've seen Durant not put up those 50+ FG%s in these 2 series that we typically expect from Durant. And so that is more than enough evidence to say that he's going to struggle from an efficiency stand point vs. Pippen and Cooper, 2 of the 5 greatest perimeter defenders all-time. And in fact, because those 2 defenders are better than TA and Kawhi, it's again reasonable to expect that Durant struggles to an even greater degree to maintain his normally awesome efficiency. He's shooting at best 45% in this series and thats being generous considering the defenders we have on him.

mightybosstone
05-22-2014, 08:53 PM
And he's not really out of position at PG, he played both PG and SG throughout his career, which actually gives us some really good versatility in that we can play him and Billups together if we so choose.
You do have a major weakness at PG in terms of playmaking, though. Billups has always been a below average playmaker and Scott was an atrocious distributor. Having Pippen helps to some extent, as does playing in a triangle offense, but I do think your offense will get stagnant at times, especially when Moses is having rough stretches.


You're right, I did forget Jo Jo, my bad. Ok, so he's clearly the best player on your bench but after that there is a significant drop off between the two benches.
I think you're seriously underrating Tyson Chandler. In addition to winning the DPOY award and being the second most important player on a championship team, the guy basically averaged 10/10/1/1/1 with a 70% TS%, 18+ PER and .210 WS/48 between 2011-13. Those are damn good numbers for any NBA center, much less one coming off my bench.


We're willing to start either Petrovic or Cooper depending on how the series is going and so regardless of which one is starting, the other is a better player than Raja Bell. In the case of Cooper, this is extremely obvious. But in the case of Petrovic, consider:
Bell's top WS season: 6.8 and his top PER season: 13.8
For Petrovic, despite only having 4 seasons in the NBA, his top WS season: 8.4 with another 7.7 season and a top PER of 17.3.
But didn't you just contradict yourself? You claim that you could start Petrovic or Cooper. In fact, everything I've seen you and Jamal have said would indicate that Cooper is getting starters minutes. Then you proceed to use WS as a tool to determine who the better starter is when, in fact, Cooper's career high in WS was 6.5 which is lower than Bell's. If that's your justification for who the better player is, then put your money where you mouth is and start Petrovic. I'm thinking you won't be doing that.


You yourself keep saying that great offense beats great defense and in the case of Bell vs. Petrovic where Bell isn't exactly an all-time great defender, we have no doubt that Petrovic can beat Bell offensively, especially when you consider the amount of good looks he'll get off those Moses double teams.
As I stated previously, Manu will double Moses when Cooper is on the floor. Not Petrovic. I'm not going to leave a 40%+ 3-point shooter wide open on the perimeter to double team somebody.


Then Mike Miller vs. Kiki. This is a laughable debate. Let's be honest here, Mike Miller is a poor defender in an all-time sense. He might not be as bad as Kiki but Kiki also provides significantly more offense than Miller does. Miller is not going off for 20 points on anyone in this matchup, even if we put a traffic cone on him. Kiki can no doubt go off for 20 points on Miller, even in limited minutes. But in case this comparison wasn't obvious enough,
Miller's top WS season: 7.4 (worse than Petrovic's 2 best season I might add) and his top PER: 17.2
Kiki has 3 different seasons with over 10 WS peaking out at 11. And his top PER is 23.6 with another 20+ PER season as well.
Again, a laughable comparison offensively and defensively, Miller isn't burning anyone. Kiki will come in and dominate this matchup.
How is it a laughable comparison defensively when you just told me that Miller is a better defender than Kiki? Also, I think you're overlooking a couple of big things here. First off, Kiki is not getting 20+ minutes on your roster. Not a chance in hell. He'll get raped as a small ball 4 and he's not getting more than maybe 10 minutes max behind Pippen. Maybe even less than that if Cooper is playing SF as you so claim. So who cares what the difference is between he and Miller as neither guy will play very minutes at all?

Secondly, Kiki is the better player. I'm not debating that. But I think Miller will fill that roll MUCH better than Kiki will. Think about this for a second. Your bench is essentially composed of three wing scorers who don't pass or play much defense and then some big men who defend, but don't score particularly well. It doesn't fit well, whatsoever. Neither Kiki, Petrovic or Scott averaged more than 3.5 assists in a single season. Not only were they not known for their defense, but Petrovic and Kiki were known as terrible defenders. And the 6'3" Scott was the best rebounder of the bunch! You have three scorers who don't defend, don't pass and don't rebound. Meanwhile, Jo Jo can penetrate, distribute and score, Raja can defend and hit the 3-ball and Miller can drill threes, play decent defense and rebound well for his position.

Is your bench more talented? Sure. But I'd much rather have mine in a 7-game series, because mine actually makes sense on paper.


And then Sam Perkins vs. AC Green. Again, advantage Santa Monica. Both players are obviously mid-teen scorers but Green offers much more defense with his all-defensive team and also, he offers much more championship experience. And yet again, looking at the numbers:
Green's top WS season: 9.4 with his best PER at 17.8
Perkins top WS season: 8.5 with his best PER at 17.6
A bit closer than the previous 2 matchups but again, add in Green's defense and Santa Monica has a clear advantage here.
So we're going to say just because Green is better defensively that he's necessarily the better player? Based on that faulty logic, Bell and Miller are better than Petrovic and Kiki. I don't get that argument at all.


Finally, while Skaro might have an advantage with Tyson Chandler over P.J. Brown, the one difference is that P.J. is backing up a top 12 player all-time while none of Skaro's backups can say the same. Additionally, P.J. has had a 10+ WS season with a peak PER of 17.6, which is pretty much the same as what you get from Tyson (who has had better PER seasons). Regardless, one difference is that Tyson has no offense outside the restricted area whereas P.J. can actually hit a jump shot and provide some spacing.

If we're talking peak production, Durant is a top 12 all-time player. But you basically just used the argument of "because my starter is better at this position, don't pay any attention to how much worse my bench player is." Weak sauce, sir. Also, you contradict yourself in back-to-back statements. You say Green is better because he has more championship experience and is the better defender, but then brag on Brown's mid-range jumper and how much better than it is to Chandler. You could flip the arguments between position, and I could say exactly the same thing!

As I said about my guards and wings, I build my bench (as I built my team) with a certain flow in mind. I wanted a defensive minded big and an offensive stretch big to back up Reed and Wallace, because they would compliment each other well on both ends of the floor. You can go position by position all you want to, but you and I both know that's not how basketball works. My bench makes a million times more sense on paper than yours does and the players compliment each other far better.


In fact, this is a critical reason for another advantage Santa Monica can exploit. Skaro has essentially the exact same player as Ben Wallace backing him up in Chandler. While Chandler might be a bit better offensively, they both can't hit anything outside of a dunk or putback. Neither has a jump shot and both can be left alone unguarded to help on other players. ALL of Santa Monica's players can hit a jump shot, including our backups, which means you can't double on Moses and not pay for it since every player we put on the court will be able to space the floor a bit.
Sorry if I'm not that worried about a 34% 3-pointer shooter in Cooper or about Green or Grant, who both boasted essentially a 15% USG% over their careers. Also, just because your players can all hit jump shots does not make that a strength. You have to be able to hit jump shots reliably, and my squad does it far better than yours does. And if having a big man who can't hit a jumper is some gaping weakness, how is it that most of the last few title contenders had centers playing big minutes who couldn't stretch the floor. Chandler, Wallace, Perkins and Anderson all won titles. None of them could hit jumpers. Sometimes it pays to have a big man whose only job it is to defend the paint, crash the glass, block shots and make dunks.

mightybosstone
05-22-2014, 08:54 PM
Usually don't comment on these, but always read. Also feels kinda awkward to vote against fellow Rocket MBT, but IMO, Santa Monica suffers from having too much talent from decades ago. Durant's ability is fresh on our minds because he's just peaking and had an MVP season, but Moses is an all timer. Pippen wasn't Jordan, sure, but he was a top 3 player in the league during a decade where the NBA had a huge list of superstars. No one remembers Drazen Petrovic but he was great.

I think, without a doubt, Santa Monica would win this series.

Remind me to verbally rape you the next time you get on the Rockets forum... You better lube up.

Edit: Also, top 3 player in the league? Are you ****ing kidding me? Michael Jordan, Hakeem Olajuwon, Shaquille O'Neal, Charles Barkley and David Robinson would like to say 'hi.' And it makes no sense that you start your statement by criticizing Santa Montica for having too much older talent and then suggest they would easily win the series.

mightybosstone
05-22-2014, 08:58 PM
Okay, guys. The debate has been fun, but I spent all day debating this and only got like 1/3 the amount of work done today that I wanted to. Maybe I can revisit this conversation later this evening or tomorrow, but if I do, it's because I'm failing miserably at life and you need to tell me to get back to work.

The_Jamal
05-22-2014, 09:03 PM
Okay, guys. The debate has been fun, but I spent all day debating this and only got like 1/3 the amount of work done today that I wanted to. Maybe I can revisit this conversation later this evening or tomorrow, but if I do, it's because I'm failing miserably at life and you need to tell me to get back to work.

Cheers!

Debates like these are what make the game fun to play. Good nostalgia of how the old match-ups used to be.

PatsSoxKnicks
05-23-2014, 01:37 AM
bump

shinjirod
05-23-2014, 11:03 AM
Remind me to verbally rape you the next time you get on the Rockets forum... You better lube up.

Edit: Also, top 3 player in the league? Are you ****ing kidding me? Michael Jordan, Hakeem Olajuwon, Shaquille O'Neal, Charles Barkley and David Robinson would like to say 'hi.' And it makes no sense that you start your statement by criticizing Santa Montica for having too much older talent and then suggest they would easily win the series.

Yes, he was a top 3 player in the league during some seasons, not necessarily a top 3 player for the decade, tho he isn't far and its debatable. O'Neal didn't get to the league til 92, and he wasn't as good as Pippen until a couple years later. Barkley did more because he was the alpha male in his team, but he beat him during the finals, and later proved he was a better player while on the same team. And he's one of the best wing defenders in history. Someone who's defensive skills Durant has only seen against Lebron.

My argument about them being too old is that a lot of forum members won't remember or haven't seen how great those guys were, and how much tougher the game was. I'm not saying it was harder to win a championship then than it is now, the game was simply more physical.

Matter.
05-23-2014, 11:06 AM
Closes in 4 hours

KnicksorBust
05-23-2014, 02:22 PM
Love PSK and Jam but going Skaro here. Both these teams pushed each other to the limit! Let's hope the rest of the matchups will be like this.

Ebbs
05-23-2014, 02:26 PM
Ended up giving Santa Monica slightest of edges. But it looks like it won't matter.

killthesux
05-23-2014, 04:28 PM
Skaro Advances, Congrats

Shammyguy3
05-23-2014, 05:02 PM
great series guys, seriously. Congrats to all GMs involved

Ebbs
05-23-2014, 06:25 PM
If I lose I hope MBT or KJ wins the whole thing. Both built great teams and both deserve a W in these games.