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View Full Version : NBA All Time ReDraft (1) Skaro vs. (8) Gondor



killthesux
05-16-2014, 11:55 AM
Hello Everyone. Welcome to the NBA All-time redraft playoffs. These will be a battle between two made up teams from our host of GM’s in to see who reigns superiority over all of basketball. Please read the write-ups and vote for who you think would win in a 7 game series.

Skaro Depth Chart
PG Gary Payton / Jo Jo White / Andre Miller
SG Manu Ginobili / Raja Bell
SF Kevin Durant / Mike Miller
PF Willis Reed / Sam Perkins / Paul Millsap
C Ben Wallace / Tyson Chandler

vs.

Gondor

pg: Derrick Rose / Kirk Hinrich/ Terrell Brandon
sg: Dan Majerle / David Thompson
sf: Lebron James / Paul George
pf: Bob Mcadoo / Brad Miller / Bob Love
C: Artis Gilmore / Joakim Noah

Skaro Has Home Court Advantage

*Neither side has submitted a write up

Ebbs
05-16-2014, 11:59 AM
How did Gondor make the playoffs

todu82
05-16-2014, 12:38 PM
Skaro

Ebbs
05-16-2014, 01:16 PM
Difference between Azkaban and Gondor at the seven and eight seed is disturbing.

mightybosstone
05-16-2014, 01:16 PM
Well, I didn't think this would get posted until this evening, but I had this written up to send in. Here it is anyway:

PG Gary Payton (38) / Jo Jo White (10) / Andre Miller
SG Manu Ginobili (35) / Raja Bell (7) / Jo Jo White (6)
SF Kevin Durant (40) / Raja Bell (8) / Mike Miller
PF Willis Reed (36) / Sam Perkins (12) / Paul Millsap
C Ben Wallace (40) / Tyson Chandler (8)

Offensive strategy
Although we built our offense specifically around unselfish, clutch players, so much of what Skaro will do offensively will be based on Reed and Durant. Payton will look to run the pick and roll with both forwards and has three excellent alley oop companions in transition (a Payton specialty). Obviously the first option will be to get Durant open looks and run screens to get him space to penetrate to the rim. But should they double him, Manu and Payton are solid perimeter shooters and Reed has a deadly mid-range jumper. Not only will Payton abuse Rose on the dribble penetration, but Reed will have his way with McAdoo in the paint and on the perimeter. Gondor will be forced to switch Gilmore onto Reed, leaving wide open space for the dribble penetration of Payton, Manu and Durant. Bell and Miller can hit set 3-pointers off the bench, while Jo Jo will be the bench’s primary playmaker, Chandler can play a similar efficient role around the basket to Wallace and both Perkins and Millsap can play the versatile stretch 4.

Defensive strategy
History has shown that Lebron James thrives with elite perimeter shooters, and the best Gondor could give him was Dan Majerle (35% career) and a center with no range outside of 5 feet. We’ll force them to beat us on the perimeter and play tight around the paint using the elite defensive talent at our disposal. Gilmore is one of the most efficient players in NBA history around the rim and both Lebron and Rose are deadly attacking the basket, so we need to protect the rim. Gilmore won’t get any easy points trying to back down Ben Wallace (4x DPOY), while Reed, one of the best defensive bigs of his generation, was athletic and tenacious enough to keep up with a versatile 4 like McAdoo. As for the wings and guards, we hope to keep Durant on Lebron, but if KD fails to keep Lebron from going off, we’ll switch Payton (the greatest defensive guard of all time, 1x DPOY) over to Lebron, put the feisty and annoying Ginobili on Rose and let Durant hover around the perimeter playing help defense while keeping Majerle honest from the 3-point line. Chandler and Bell provide some versatility defensively, as the defense won’t skip a beat with Chandler anchoring and Bell can come in to defend Lebron or stick to guarding Thompson, Gondor’s best bench scorer.

Why Skaro wins
Aside from just being more talented, postseason experience goes a long way, and our guys have it. There’s not so much. Aside from Lebron, McAdoo is the only guy in their starting five with an NBA title, and he won his two as the fifth or sixth best guy on those Lakers teams. Four of our guys have been major contributors for title teams while the fifth (Durant) already has one Finals appearance and has shown a propensity for clutch postseason performances (8th in career postseason PER, postseason WS/48). Rose, Gilmore and Majerle combined for one NBA Finals appearance and zero combined rings. The floor spacing is also a bit of a mess and all of Lebron, Rose, McAdoo and Gilmore need the ball in their hands a lot offensively to be effective on that end of the floor. Rose was an especially poor choice at PG next to Lebron as his lack of perimeter shooting and need to dribble drive makes him redundant offensively. And, finally, the only real “advantage” Gondor has in this series is Lebron over Durant, but if we examine their head-to-head career numbers, how much of an advantage is that, really?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jamesle01&p2=duranke01

Skaro in 5

PatsSoxKnicks
05-16-2014, 02:40 PM
Difference between Azkaban and Gondor at the seven and eight seed is disturbing.

Yeah I know right? I still kinda think Azkaban got hosed, though I'm certainly glad they didn't end up as like a 5 seed or something :laugh2:

tredigs
05-16-2014, 02:44 PM
How did Gondor make the playoffs

Lebron + McAdoo + Gilmore is absolutely viscous on both ends, and Rose + Majerlie/Thompson is nothing to scoff at... are you kidding here? Are Gilmore + McAdoo that underrated?? Great size, great D, decent spacing (though, a weakness. Hinrich instead of a great floor spacer as a backup PG was a mistake), and almost everyone can score at an elite level in his rotation. They'd crush. Better question is how is SKaro a 1 seed if Gondor's an 8???

Kaner
05-16-2014, 02:46 PM
How did Gondor make the playoffs

Who should have over me?

tredigs
05-16-2014, 02:46 PM
Gondor needs to only run an 8 man rotation with Thompson/PG/Noah, though.

Kaner
05-16-2014, 02:47 PM
Don't have a write up ready but I'll be posting one in a little bit

PatsSoxKnicks
05-16-2014, 02:49 PM
I'm not really sure what to think of Rose but either way, GP's best season is still better than Rose's (13.9 WS, 23.6 PER vs. 13.1 WS, 23.5 PER) and Rose has nothing else to fall back on so even if you wanted to look at Rose's MVP season as the sole measure of his play, he still falls short of GP. And of course Manu has a clear edge over Dan. I like McAdoo but Willis Reed again has a clear edge. And at C, I might be willing to give the edge to Gilmore cause Wallace is one-dimensional but it doesn't matter since Wallace can severely diminish Gilmore's output, which is important considering the advantages Skaro has literally everywhere else. And I definitely think Rose would struggle vs. the Glove's defense.

So this matchup clearly goes to Skaro, which is kind of unfortunate because given that Gondor has Lebron and Paul George, they match up GREAT with Skaro's #1 in Durant. But even if LBJ completely owns Durant (which I don't think that happens this year), Skaro still has advantages all over the place. And the one other advantage Gondor has isn't much of one since I could see Wallace shutting down Gilmore.

mightybosstone
05-16-2014, 02:53 PM
Just a heads up, but I think 1-800-STFU may be going around and deliberately voting for the underdog in every series. I can't remember a vote where he didn't pick the lower seeded team. If that trend continues, I think we seriously need to consider whether that vote should continue to count. I haven't seen him post in a single thread yet, either.

xxplayerxx23
05-16-2014, 02:56 PM
He does it in every game every time mbt

PatsSoxKnicks
05-16-2014, 02:57 PM
Lebron + McAdoo + Gilmore is absolutely viscous on both ends, and Rose + Majerlie/Thompson is nothing to scoff at... are you kidding here? Are Gilmore + McAdoo that underrated?? Great size, great D, decent spacing (though, a weakness. Hinrich instead of a great floor spacer as a backup PG was a mistake), and almost everyone can score at an elite level in his rotation. They'd crush. Better question is how is SKaro a 1 seed if Gondor's an 8???

I mean let's be honest, this matchup isn't that close when you look at the individual matchups for each position: GP > Rose (as I pointed out, even Rose's MVP season is worse than GP's best season and Rose has NO other seasons to fall back on while GP has a whole career of shutting down opposing players + pretty good offense himself), Manu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Thunder Dan (that's not even close, Manu at his peak is comparable to Kobe from a per minute standpoint...), LBJ > Durant obviously (but I know you know the difference isn't that large as you're one of Durant's biggest supporters), Willis Reed > McAdoo (I really like McAdoo but Reed has some outstanding playoff performances to lean on and a few championships as the Co #1 and maybe I'm a bit biased here but it's closer than most people think, just like Reed's D better) and finally while Gilmore > Wallace (let's not forget what Wallace was able to do to a prime Shaq so what could he do in regards to Gilmore? I'd certainly think Gilmore has a tough time scoring in this series)

The advantages Skaro has are all over the place (well specifically Manu's roasting of Dan).

Greet
05-16-2014, 02:58 PM
Manu's best seasons as a pro are the ones with him coming off the bench as the 6th man, so I'm surprised that Skaro went the route of starting him.

Ben Wallace and Tyson Chandler is absolutely dirty defensively, but I'm not so sure they would have great offensive production in the post. Willis Reed isn't bad, but he was never really a super effective scorer.

I think Skaro wins, but they don't dominate. I thought Gondor wasn't a bad team.... They might have tried a little too hard to get a vote from the younger generation with using Lebron, Drose, Noah and George.

tredigs
05-16-2014, 03:03 PM
I'm not really sure what to think of Rose but either way, GP's best season is still better than Rose's (13.9 WS, 23.6 PER vs. 13.1 WS, 23.5 PER) and Rose has nothing else to fall back on so even if you wanted to look at Rose's MVP season as the sole measure of his play, he still falls short of GP. And of course Manu has a clear edge over Dan. I like McAdoo but Willis Reed again has a clear edge. And at C, I might be willing to give the edge to Gilmore cause Wallace is one-dimensional but it doesn't matter since Wallace can severely diminish Gilmore's output, which is important considering the advantages Skaro has literally everywhere else. And I definitely think Rose would struggle vs. the Glove's defense.

So this matchup clearly goes to Skaro, which is kind of unfortunate because given that Gondor has Lebron and Paul George, they match up GREAT with Skaro's #1 in Durant. But even if LBJ completely owns Durant (which I don't think that happens this year), Skaro still has advantages all over the place. And the one other advantage Gondor has isn't much of one since I could see Wallace shutting down Gilmore.
I think a young Gilmore crushes Wallace on both ends (well, you don't even have to worry about Wallace on one end). You can only do so much against a strong 7'2" guy who scores with the best efficiency in the game and can rebound/defend among the best ever (I think he still leads NCAA in RPG and lead every year in the ABA through his prime while being the best/strongest/biggest defensive big in their league... he just gets forgotten by not joining the NBA 'til later on). Overall that team (Gondor) is winning the contest of the bigs for sure.

And really, I don't see much of an advantage for GP/Manu against Rose/Majerlie in this type of matchup. Dan was an elite defender and a great/clutch floor stretcher who has size on Manu. He'd cause him fits and it wouldn't be a focal point of their offense that they could exploit at all imo. And while GP has the advantage at point, D. Rose is a pretty tough matchup for Payton if we're talking peak play here. He has the size/strength/quickness to counter GP on both ends, especially being able to play off Payton since shooting was his weakness.

I really think Lebron would be the difference as the best player in the series and Gondor would win this matchup to be honest.

PatsSoxKnicks
05-16-2014, 03:05 PM
Manu's best seasons as a pro are the ones with him coming off the bench as the 6th man, so I'm surprised that Skaro went the route of starting him.

Ben Wallace and Tyson Chandler is absolutely dirty defensively, but I'm not so sure they would have great offensive production in the post. Willis Reed isn't bad, but he was never really a super effective scorer.

I think Skaro wins, but they don't dominate. I thought Gondor wasn't a bad team.... They might have tried a little too hard to get a vote from the younger generation with using Lebron, Drose, Noah and George.

Yeah I could agree with this, Skaro doesn't have massive advantages anywhere because most of them are slight EXCEPT for Manu over Dan Majerle. That's a HUGE advantage and I think that easily swings it in Skaro's favor. As I said, Manu's per minute stats have always been on Kobe's level, he's just never had the durability or the recognition that Kobe gets.

PatsSoxKnicks
05-16-2014, 03:12 PM
I think a young Gilmore crushes Wallace on both ends (well, you don't even have to worry about Wallace on one end). You can only do so much against a strong 7'2" guy who scores with the best efficiency in the game and can rebound/defend among the best ever (I think he still leads NCAA in RPG and lead every year in the ABA through his prime while being the best/strongest/biggest defensive big in their league... he just gets forgotten by not joining the NBA 'til later on). Overall that team (Gondor) is winning the contest of the bigs for sure.

I can agree Gondor will will the contest of the bigs since Ben Wallace is a nothing on one end. However, are we forgetting what Ben Wallace did to a prime Shaq here? Why are we so certain Gilmore crushes a prime Wallace when a prime Wallace was able to embarass a prime Shaq in a Finals (well I mean as much as you can embarass prime Shaq lol)?



And really, I don't see much of an advantage for GP/Manu against Rose/Majerlie in this type of matchup. Dan was an elite defender and a great/clutch floor stretcher who has size on Manu. He'd cause him fits and it wouldn't be a focal point of their offense that they could exploit at all imo. And while GP has the advantage at point, D. Rose is a pretty tough matchup for Payton if we're talking peak play here. He has the size/strength/quickness to counter GP on both ends, especially being able to play off Payton since shooting was his weakness.

I really think Lebron would be the difference as the best player in the series and Gondor would win this matchup to be honest.

Are we kidding with the Manu vs. Thunder Dan? Are people that unaware of Manu's peak? You guys all realize this guy has per minute stats comparable to Kobe right? Would we sit here and compare Kobe to Thunder Dan? No way!

I continue to be amazed at how just underrated Manu's career is. Seriously people, go and compare Manu's WS/48 vs. Kobe's best years

tredigs
05-16-2014, 03:14 PM
Yeah I could agree with this, Skaro doesn't have massive advantages anywhere because most of them are slight EXCEPT for Manu over Dan Majerle. That's a HUGE advantage and I think that easily swings it in Skaro's favor. As I said, Manu's per minute stats have always been on Kobe's level, he's just never had the durability or the recognition that Kobe gets.

Manu's never been close to the volume of scorer or the focal point of an offense like Kobe has. That's not a comparable situation whatsoever PSK, c'mon now. We're talking about a #3 who takes 11 shots a game here.

Majerlie couldn't pass like Manu (though he wasn't inept - just not his game), but he was a 17/5/4 guy who could stretch the floor and give you some size + elite D. With Lebron as a point-forward (thinking on it more I don't love Rose with Lebron, but it's still very dangerous) and Majerlie able to focus on outside shooting + D, I think that's a really good fit for him and truly not a big advantage for Skaro that they'd bother trying to exploit with so many other high usage players on their squad.

As for Manu, we can't talk about his WS/48 and overall efficiency without directly discussing the absolutely PERFECT career setup he has been afforded. He is an amazing player (one of my favorite players) and does go underrated, but he's never been a #1 and would never be a game changer versus a great defender in a series with this many stacked/high-usage stars.

Greet
05-16-2014, 03:15 PM
Yeah I could agree with this, Skaro doesn't have massive advantages anywhere because most of them are slight EXCEPT for Manu over Dan Majerle. That's a HUGE advantage and I think that easily swings it in Skaro's favor. As I said, Manu's per minute stats have always been on Kobe's level, he's just never had the durability or the recognition that Kobe gets.

Some may argue lack of durability, others may argue Greg Popovich is just a genius. But either way with Manu starting or coming off the bench, it's a HUGE advantage... one big enough to win the series.

Off-topic: Also I've never done one of these before, where does Lebron usually get drafted? Is he considered a top-10 player in one of these?

PatsSoxKnicks
05-16-2014, 03:16 PM
I'm gonna have to do a Manu post here, to remind everyone how great this guy is because I think it's simply criminal that we're comparing him to Thunder Dan. These two do not belong in the same sentence when one of them has better per minute stats than Kobe at his peak (seriously go look at the WS/48 or look at his WARP numbers too).

tredigs
05-16-2014, 03:17 PM
Some may argue lack of durability, others may argue Greg Popovich is just a genius. But either way with Manu starting or coming off the bench, it's a HUGE advantage... one big enough to win the series.

Off-topic: Also I've never done one of these before, where does Lebron usually get drafted? Is he considered a top-10 player in one of these?

Agreed that this should be his role, but even off the bench, I'd just throw PG on him and bam - highly neutralized on both ends.

Lucky.
05-16-2014, 03:20 PM
I find LeBron-McAdoo-Gilmore to be a very good front court. I'd say a lot of whether or not people like Gondor is their perception of Rose. Considering how we're supposed to look at peaks, I didn't mind the Rose pick nearly as much as others did. I understand it's hard to imagine Rose as anything more than what he's been the last 2-3 years considering that's the first thing you think of when you see Rose. Maybe I'm higher on Gondor than others, but I don't think it's fair at all to question their playoff position.

With that said, Skaro takes it. I just think Gondor deserves a little more credit.

tredigs
05-16-2014, 03:21 PM
I'm gonna have to do a Manu post here, to remind everyone how great this guy is because I think it's simply criminal that we're comparing him to Thunder Dan. These two do not belong in the same sentence when one of them has better per minute stats than Kobe at his peak (seriously go look at the WS/48 or look at his WARP numbers too).

I don't think anyone is discrediting Manu, I just think you're heavily overestimating what his impact would be in a series with monsters at all positions. He'd be taking ~7 shots and dishing out 3 assists as a #4 option on low usage. And going against a guy who was a top 5 perimeter defender at his peak in a league with MJ/Pippen/Dumars/Payton, those shots wouldn't come easy.

PatsSoxKnicks
05-16-2014, 03:27 PM
Manu's never been close to the volume of scorer or the focal point of an offense like Kobe has. That's not a comparable situation whatsoever PSK, c'mon now. We're talking about a #3 who takes 11 shots a game here.

And that explains the comparable per-minute numbers? Scoring is not the only aspect of the game and there are so many things Manu does besides scoring that show up in his impact. How about the fact that this guy's RAPM has been top 5-7 for 4 years in his peak, ahead of one Kobe Bryant (05-08)?

Admittedly, I don't expect a lot of people to understand how good Manu's peak was because stats like RAPM aren't exactly common place. But he's LONG been a favorite of the APBR crowd and there are things he does that don't show up in the box score (the additional impact of his spacing) and go beyond just being a 3rd option, which even I might disagree with because I always thought back in his prime, they'd go to him more than Parker for a big shot since Parker was still developing.



As for Manu, we can't talk about his WS/48 and overall efficiency without directly discussing the absolutely PERFECT career setup he has been afforded. He is an amazing player (one of my favorite players) and does go underrated, but he's never been a #1 and would never be a game changer versus a great defender in a series with this many stacked/high-usage stars.

He wouldn't exactly be a #1 in this situation though would he? He's got Durant and Willis Reed on his team here. So you could argue he'd be in the same role. And I COMPLETELY disagree with not calling him a game changer. Again, at his prime, go back and look at his RAPMs, you don't have RAPM's like that with WS/48/PER numbers and not be a game changer. It's one thing to be a Nick Collison and have a great RAPM but lack the supporting box score numbers but Manu has both- even his PER which favors volume scoring is still really good.

PatsSoxKnicks
05-16-2014, 03:31 PM
Some may argue lack of durability, others may argue Greg Popovich is just a genius. But either way with Manu starting or coming off the bench, it's a HUGE advantage... one big enough to win the series.

Off-topic: Also I've never done one of these before, where does Lebron usually get drafted? Is he considered a top-10 player in one of these?

Those are legitimate criticisms and I think the durability one is HUGE but we're discussing all players at 100% health.

LBJ went 2nd this year, a bit of a reach probably. But been top 10 the last 2 years.

mightybosstone
05-16-2014, 03:33 PM
I think a young Gilmore crushes Wallace on both ends (well, you don't even have to worry about Wallace on one end). You can only do so much against a strong 7'2" guy who scores with the best efficiency in the game and can rebound/defend among the best ever (I think he still leads NCAA in RPG and lead every year in the ABA through his prime while being the best/strongest/biggest defensive big in their league... he just gets forgotten by not joining the NBA 'til later on). Overall that team (Gondor) is winning the contest of the bigs for sure.
Last time I checked size did not equate to defensive or rebounding prowess. Despite being a smaller player and playing in an area with better athletes, Wallace boasts a superior TRB% to Gilmore. As did Reed over McAdoo. When you consider that Gilmore and Wallace are likely a wash defensively and Reed is just the superior all around player to McAdoo, I don't see how the frontcourt is such an obvious edge for Gondor.


And really, I don't see much of an advantage for GP/Manu against Rose/Majerlie in this type of matchup. Dan was an elite defender and a great/clutch floor stretcher who has size on Manu. He'd cause him fits and it wouldn't be a focal point of their offense that they could exploit at all imo. And while GP has the advantage at point, D. Rose is a pretty tough matchup for Payton if we're talking peak play here. He has the size/strength/quickness to counter GP on both ends, especially being able to play off Payton since shooting was his weakness.
You're SERIOUSLY overrating that backcourt. Rose had one great season and has been totally underwhelming in the postseason and you're acting as if he could stand toe to toe with Gary Payton. That's completely insane. And you do the same thing with Majerle and Ginobili. Apparently longevity, statistical dominance, defensive prowess and postseason success mean absolutely nothing to you.


I really think Lebron would be the difference as the best player in the series and Gondor would win this matchup to be honest.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jamesle01&p2=duranke01

The career numbers suggest that Lebron vs. Durant is a much, much closer matchup that you're giving any credit.

PatsSoxKnicks
05-16-2014, 03:35 PM
I don't think anyone is discrediting Manu, I just think you're heavily overestimating what his impact would be in a series with monsters at all positions. He'd be taking ~7 shots and dishing out 3 assists as a #4 option on low usage. And going against a guy who was a top 5 perimeter defender at his peak in a league with MJ/Pippen/Dumars/Payton, those shots wouldn't come easy.

I think you are discrediting Manu because I think you're missing things that don't show up in the box score (his impact in simply spacing the floor even if he doesn't shoot a 3 (http://www.basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=1209)). Again, this guy has had top 5-7 RAPM's from 05-08 with very good PERs/WS/48 as well. You don't do that without being a highly impactful player. The biggest knock on Manu is his injury concerns but since we're assuming 100% health, he's definitely getting underrated here.

I suggest you look at his RAPMs and before discounting the stat, know that this is being used increasingly more often around the NBA. Heck, even ESPN just introduced a RAPM based stat. It's long been used in the NBA but the general public is only now seeing it's use. And combine that with his per-minute box-score metrics and I definitely think you're underrating him. And this is in addition to very good defense (even if it's a lot of flopping :laugh2:).

PS- Read the article I linked, it shows the importance of spacing even if you aren't shooting

Also, I'm only talking regular season numbers too. At what point do we consider Manu's postseason resume compared to Dan's? I mean is that even close.

1-800-STFU
05-16-2014, 03:38 PM
Just a heads up, but I think 1-800-STFU may be going around and deliberately voting for the underdog in every series. I can't remember a vote where he didn't pick the lower seeded team. If that trend continues, I think we seriously need to consider whether that vote should continue to count. I haven't seen him post in a single thread yet, either.

Until NOW.

mightybosstone
05-16-2014, 03:42 PM
And that explains the comparable per-minute numbers? Scoring is not the only aspect of the game and there are so many things Manu does besides scoring that show up in his impact. How about the fact that this guy's RAPM has been top 5-7 for 4 years in his peak, ahead of one Kobe Bryant (05-08)?

Admittedly, I don't expect a lot of people to understand how good Manu's peak was because stats like RAPM aren't exactly common place. But he's LONG been a favorite of the APBR crowd and there are things he does that don't show up in the box score (the additional impact of his spacing) and go beyond just being a 3rd option, which even I might disagree with because I always thought back in his prime, they'd go to him more than Parker for a big shot since Parker was still developing.

He wouldn't exactly be a #1 in this situation though would he? He's got Durant and Willis Reed on his team here. So you could argue he'd be in the same role. And I COMPLETELY disagree with not calling him a game changer. Again, at his prime, go back and look at his RAPMs, you don't have RAPM's like that with WS/48/PER numbers and not be a game changer. It's one thing to be a Nick Collison and have a great RAPM but lack the supporting box score numbers but Manu has both- even his PER which favors volume scoring is still really good.

I'm glad you're defending Manu for me, because the lack of respect he's getting right now makes me want to punch my laptop. As the third or fourth guy on an offense with monsters like Durant and Reed, Manu would thrive. The man's offensive efficiency as his peak was godly and as good as Parker and Duncan were, that roster was not remotely as talented as this one.

PatsSoxKnicks
05-16-2014, 03:49 PM
Manu's impact: http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursnation/2014/03/18/the-throwback-impact-of-manu-ginobili/

This might be better: http://nba.si.com/2013/12/16/manu-ginobili-spurs-san-antonio/

Kaner
05-16-2014, 03:50 PM
I'm not really sure what to think of Rose but either way, GP's best season is still better than Rose's (13.9 WS, 23.6 PER vs. 13.1 WS, 23.5 PER) and Rose has nothing else to fall back on so even if you wanted to look at Rose's MVP season as the sole measure of his play, he still falls short of GP. And of course Manu has a clear edge over Dan. I like McAdoo but Willis Reed again has a clear edge. And at C, I might be willing to give the edge to Gilmore cause Wallace is one-dimensional but it doesn't matter since Wallace can severely diminish Gilmore's output, which is important considering the advantages Skaro has literally everywhere else. And I definitely think Rose would struggle vs. the Glove's defense.

So this matchup clearly goes to Skaro, which is kind of unfortunate because given that Gondor has Lebron and Paul George, they match up GREAT with Skaro's #1 in Durant. But even if LBJ completely owns Durant (which I don't think that happens this year), Skaro still has advantages all over the place. And the one other advantage Gondor has isn't much of one since I could see Wallace shutting down Gilmore.

Responding to this will more or less be my write up. GP is a clear advantage over Rose I wont deny that but I don't think either Rose or GP are a major part of either teams offensive gameplans. But if Skaro does decide to give GP significant offensive touches Rose plays some of his best defense in the post where he can use his size, strength, and athleticism to bother GP shot.

Mcadoo vs Reed: I completely disagree about Reed having a clear edge over Mcadoo though and would actually argue the opposite. Mcadoo is the more effiecent scorer, better passer, more range, and at least an athletic defender averaging as many as 3.3 bpg in a season. While Reed has the edge defensively he still only made 1 defensive 1st team and Mcadoo was noted for having an extremely difficult shot to bother.

Gilmore vs Wallace: Your saying you'll give the edge to Gilmore like its close. It really isn't, on one hand you have one of the most inefficient and offensively inept players to ever be on a nba roster and on the other you have literally the complete opposite in the 2nd most efficient player in nba history with 19 ppg volume to boot. Both are anchors defensively and while Wallace is the better defender they'll be playing 4v5 on offense. clear advantage Gondor at C imo.

Lebron vs Durant: You touched on my wing defenders (and their lack of) which is part of the reason why I think I matchup well against Skaro. Skaro offense looks like it relys heavily on Durant being able to carry the scoring load with his next best offensive weapon being a relatively tamed 20ppg scorer in Reed and starting Wallace their offense will have to rely heavily on Durant. Who plays a position that I happen to have 2 of my best defenders at. If Lebron and George can limit Durant, something that both have done in the past and Lebron has done in the finals, then I think Gondor wins this series. Of course on the otherside Skaro has no one who will be able to stop Lebron. MBT mentioned Payton and all i'll say to that is bring it. Lebron should have close to a 80Lbs and 5 inches on Payton who has never guarded someone with THAT much size on him. The fact that Lebron is also more athletic makes that an easily exploitable matchup.

Majerle vs Ginobili: Like you said Ginobili is clearly the superior player. All I'll say is that Majerle has a couple defensive teams to support he'd be able to guard Ginobili and both of them are their teams 5th option so if this is where I lose the series then so be it.

Why I think I'll win: My 1st, 2nd, and 3rd options are all 3 of the most efficient scorers of all-time. Skaro has nobody to stop lebron while my best defender and defensive sub are waiting for Durant. After Durant his team has a underwhelming offense and a defense that is weak in the worst spots to matchup against me.

tredigs
05-16-2014, 03:53 PM
You guys are making my hangover worse, congratulations. Are you happy!?

And PSK I'm well aware of RAPM and its merits, come on now. If I had to choose only one public stat (knowing context from watching the games), that might be it.

MBosstone, no, size does not equal rebounding prowess (did I say it did?), but having the highest rebounding% in ABA and NCAA history does in fact say that. He was a monster on the boards, a major shot blocker (who could afford to weakside help in the paint against Reed with the luxury of defending the offensive hole that is Big Ben all day).

I don't think I'm overrating or underrating either backcourt (clearly Darko or whatever has the advantage), I just feel that it is a lower net advantage than the frontcourt of Lebron/Mcadoo/Gilmore (which, without seeing the other teams I would assume rivals all other frontcourts in this contest). I stand by my contention that Manu would be a very low Usage player in this series and that Dan would give him fits getting anything up (as a peak Rose could play straight up against GP and not be at a huge disadvantage due to GP's inability to consistently hit an outside shot and all the paint protection that Gondor has. That would actually be an awesome battle to watch).


Kaner I accept PayPal and American Express fyi.

Kaner
05-16-2014, 03:57 PM
I don't think I'm overrating or underrating either backcourt (clearly Darko or whatever has the advantage), I just feel that it is a lower net advantage than the frontcourt of Lebron/Mcadoo/Gilmore (which, without seeing the other teams I would assume rivals all other frontcourts in this contest). I stand by my contention that Manu would be a very low Usage player in this series and that Dan would give him fits getting anything up (as a peak Rose could play straight up against GP and not be at a huge disadvantage due to GP's inability to consistently hit an outside shot and all the paint protection that Gondor has. That would actually be an awesome battle to watch).


Kaner I accept PayPal and American Express fyi.

Gotta cover are tracks both of those can be tracked back to me, Western Union is much more anonymous.

PatsSoxKnicks
05-16-2014, 03:57 PM
^For me, I think you are really evenly matched up. I'll admit, I'm a Knicks fan and so yes, I'm a bit biased towards Willis Reed. But you're right, McAdoo could have an argument over Willis because peak wise, he was statistically more dominant.

However, for me, yes Manu does change the series. Maybe to most I seem like an overly zealous Manu fan, but I simply can't turn off my very analytical/APBR mind and everything I know about his impact. A lot of it is hard to get a beat on but from the two articles above, you see how the Spurs offense simply gets a ton better with Manu on the court and this has ALWAYS been the case. And it doesn't just show up in the role players- both Duncan's and Parker's eFG% sees a SIGNIFICANT decline without Manu.

tredigs
05-16-2014, 04:01 PM
Gotta cover are tracks both of those can be tracked back to me, Western Union is much more anonymous.

Good point.


^For me, I think you are really evenly matched up. I'll admit, I'm a Knicks fan and so yes, I'm a bit biased towards Willis Reed. But you're right, McAdoo could have an argument over Willis because peak wise, he was statistically more dominant.

However, for me, yes Manu does change the series. Maybe to most I seem like an overly zealous Manu fan, but I simply can't turn off my very analytical/APBR mind and everything I know about his impact. A lot of it is hard to get a beat on but from the two articles above, you see how the Spurs offense simply gets a ton better with Manu on the court and this has ALWAYS been the case. And it doesn't just show up in the role players- both Duncan's and Parker's eFG% sees a SIGNIFICANT decline without Manu.

Good luck fighting your low usage finesse against the thunder storm, PSK! http://www.nba.com/suns/sites/suns/files/imagecache/image_gallery_default/media/thunder_nine_cover.jpg

PatsSoxKnicks
05-16-2014, 04:01 PM
I hope I don't regret this later on but this graphic here should at least show how a guy like Manu can make a large impact, even if you can't quite understand why.
http://sinbapointforward.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/manu-chart.jpg

And remember, this isn't just role players, it's Parker and Duncan, the consensus 2 best players on the Spurs witnessing a SIGNIFICANT decline without Manu.

And MBT, you're welcome LOL.

PatsSoxKnicks
05-16-2014, 04:03 PM
You guys are making my hangover worse, congratulations. Are you happy!?

And PSK I'm well aware of RAPM and its merits, come on now. If I had to choose only one public stat (knowing context from watching the games), that might be it.

MBosstone, no, size does not equal rebounding prowess (did I say it did?), but having the highest rebounding% in ABA and NCAA history does in fact say that. He was a monster on the boards, a major shot blocker (who could afford to weakside help in the paint against Reed with the luxury of defending the offensive hole that is Big Ben all day).

I don't think I'm overrating or underrating either backcourt (clearly Darko or whatever has the advantage), I just feel that it is a lower net advantage than the frontcourt of Lebron/Mcadoo/Gilmore (which, without seeing the other teams I would assume rivals all other frontcourts in this contest). I stand by my contention that Manu would be a very low Usage player in this series and that Dan would give him fits getting anything up (as a peak Rose could play straight up against GP and not be at a huge disadvantage due to GP's inability to consistently hit an outside shot and all the paint protection that Gondor has. That would actually be an awesome battle to watch).


Kaner I accept PayPal and American Express fyi.

It seems to me that we simply disagree on Manu and thats where this series changes basically.

tredigs
05-16-2014, 04:05 PM
It seems to me that we simply disagree on Manu and thats where this series changes basically.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqMsLpwmXLI

VS Manu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSr0wJ2-nLA

I mean...

PatsSoxKnicks
05-16-2014, 04:05 PM
You guys are making my hangover worse, congratulations. Are you happy!?

And PSK I'm well aware of RAPM and its merits, come on now. If I had to choose only one public stat (knowing context from watching the games), that might be it.


LOL, sorry. At least I haven't typed too much in big capital letters.

And then how are you ignoring it? lol. I don't think it's a fluke when you consider his per-minute numbers like WS/48 and PER. There's definitely something he adds- passing, spacing among other things obviously- that makes a massive impact on his teammates INCLUDING one Timmy D and Tony Parker.

PatsSoxKnicks
05-16-2014, 04:07 PM
I'm glad you're defending Manu for me, because the lack of respect he's getting right now makes me want to punch my laptop. As the third or fourth guy on an offense with monsters like Durant and Reed, Manu would thrive. The man's offensive efficiency as his peak was godly and as good as Parker and Duncan were, that roster was not remotely as talented as this one.

Same here and I don't even have him on my team :laugh2:

PatsSoxKnicks
05-16-2014, 04:08 PM
BTW, I am going to SEVERELY regret this defending Manu considering you're our next opponent. I shall shut up now.

mightybosstone
05-16-2014, 04:16 PM
You guys are making my hangover worse, congratulations. Are you happy!?
Yes, actually. You're arguing against my team getting to the next round. That does give me a little pleasure. ;)


MBosstone, no, size does not equal rebounding prowess (did I say it did?), but having the highest rebounding% in ABA and NCAA history does in fact say that. He was a monster on the boards, a major shot blocker (who could afford to weakside help in the paint against Reed with the luxury of defending the offensive hole that is Big Ben all day).
And yet Wallace boasts higher TRB% and BLK% for his career. Wallace also made All-Defensive teams six consecutive years and was DPOY four times compared to five and zero for Gilmore. That's a weak way to judge a player's defense, but because I don't really have numbers in front of me to measure Gilmore's defensive impact (and I'm far too lazy to look them up), I'm just going to chalk it up to Wallace being the superior defender.


I don't think I'm overrating or underrating either backcourt (clearly Darko or whatever has the advantage), I just feel that it is a lower net advantage than the frontcourt of Lebron/Mcadoo/Gilmore (which, without seeing the other teams I would assume rivals all other frontcourts in this contest).
I totally disagree. For one, you're judging the players based on how they match up talent wise at each position, which is a totally lame way to judge two basketball teams. And secondly, the advantage of the frontcourt does not remotely make up for the massive disadvantage in the backcourt. Nor does it make up for the edge my team so clearly has on both ends of the floor. I've got plus defenders at every position and two of the best defensive players at their respective positions in the history of the game at PG and C. I've also got a superior floor spacing team and one that makes far more sense together offensively. Rose and Lebron are a horrible fit for one another, and Majerle was a the best floor spacer they have next to Lebron, which is just a recipe for failure.


I stand by my contention that Manu would be a very low Usage player in this series and that Dan would give him fits getting anything up (as a peak Rose could play straight up against GP and not be at a huge disadvantage due to GP's inability to consistently hit an outside shot and all the paint protection that Gondor has. That would actually be an awesome battle to watch).
I love how apparently Majerle (a guy with two 2nd team all-defensive teams that was burned by Jordan for 41/9/6 in the 93 Finals) will apparently shut down Manu, while arguably the greatest defensive point guard in NBA history in Payton will have no advantage whatsoever against a one-hit wonder like Rose. That makes sense. Good call.

mightybosstone
05-16-2014, 04:18 PM
I hope I don't regret this later on but this graphic here should at least show how a guy like Manu can make a large impact, even if you can't quite understand why.
http://sinbapointforward.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/manu-chart.jpg

And remember, this isn't just role players, it's Parker and Duncan, the consensus 2 best players on the Spurs witnessing a SIGNIFICANT decline without Manu.

And MBT, you're welcome LOL.

Thanks, buddy! I bookmarked this so I can use it against you in the next round. If you want to, you can go ahead and do both of our write-ups. That would save me a lot of time and effort. :D

tredigs
05-16-2014, 04:21 PM
I truly hate when stupid people put words in others mouths, specifically my own.

PatsSoxKnicks
05-16-2014, 04:21 PM
Thanks, buddy! I bookmarked this so I can use it against you in the next round. If you want to, you can go ahead and do both of our write-ups. That would save me a lot of time and effort. :D

I'm an idiot lmao. lol Jam's gonna kill me :facepalm:

PatsSoxKnicks
05-16-2014, 04:24 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqMsLpwmXLI

VS Manu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSr0wJ2-nLA

I mean...

YES! Please make sure to remember this in the next round. And remember, Croatian basketball players are a lot tougher than those Argentian ones.

mightybosstone
05-16-2014, 04:24 PM
I truly hate when stupid people put words in others mouths, specifically my own.

Ohhh.... Apparently I'm a stupid person now. That's respectful. I'm glad to see we're keeping this friendly and civil.

tredigs
05-16-2014, 04:29 PM
Ohhh.... Apparently I'm a stupid person now. That's respectful. I'm glad to see we're keeping this friendly and civil.

I was friendly and civil until you did the thing that all stupid people do by completely over exaggerating or outright falsifying points (the ones that were not jokes) in an attempt to serve your own cause. It's very annoying, and I have no patience for people who do it.

Anyway, I'm done here. I gotta roll.

GO GONDOR!! 5 on 4 on one end in an ALL-TIME DRAFT?? WINNING!

mightybosstone
05-16-2014, 04:40 PM
I was friendly and civil until you did the thing that all stupid people do by completely over exaggerating or outright falsifying points (the ones that were not jokes) in an attempt to serve your own cause. It's very annoying, and I have no patience for people who do it.

Anyway, I'm done here. I gotta roll.

GO GONDOR!! 5 on 4 on one end in an ALL-TIME DRAFT?? WINNING!

You realize how incredibly insulting that is, right? All I did was turn your own poor arguments around on you and apparently that somehow diminishes my intelligence? You're the guy trying to defend a losing battle that Rose and Marjerle are not significantly worse when anyone with common sense who can look up the numbers and the accolades to prove otherwise.

I have no patience for people who call other people stupid just because they don't like the other person's argument and can't disprove it. You want to prove you're so much smarter than me? Prove it by making a legitimate point that I can't dismiss in 10 seconds. You boasted about Gilmore's defense and rebounding. All I did was provide statistical evidence that Wallace was better. You claimed Majerle would slow down Manu. I just suggested otherwise based on logic and numbers. What points did I "falsify"?

It's really sad that you have to resort to name calling to make your point in a re-draft you're now even participating in. You're better than that.

Sadds The Gr8
05-16-2014, 04:43 PM
I agree with tredigs on the manu front. He isn't saying that Manu 's not better than Dan. He's saying that Dan's defense can somewhat limit manu's scoring production (the same argument psk was using for Ben against artis), and Manu isn't a high volume scorer anyways. however, manu can contribute in other ways as he's a great playmaker.

I still think mbts team would win in 6 or 7 (i underrated kandor or w/e the **** they're called). Kandor clearly should be a playoff team tho so i don't know Wtf ebbs was talking about there

PatsSoxKnicks
05-16-2014, 04:45 PM
I agree with tredigs on the manu front. He isn't saying that Manu 's not better than Dan. He's saying that Dan's defense can somewhat limit manu's scoring production (the same argument psk was using for Ben against artis), and Manu isn't a high volume scorer anyways. however, manu can contribute in other ways as he's a great playmaker.

It's not just better, it's A LOT better. But anyways, enough of me defending Manu- I'm going to severely regret that later.

[QUOTE=Sadds The Gr8;28502997]
I still think mbts team would win in 6 or 7 (i underrated kandor or w/e the **** they're called). Kandor clearly should be a playoff team tho so i don't know Wtf ebbs was talking about there

Oh I definitely agree with this. They should definitely be a playoff team.

mightybosstone
05-16-2014, 04:55 PM
I agree with tredigs on the manu front. He isn't saying that Manu 's not better than Dan. He's saying that Dan's defense can somewhat limit manu's scoring production (the same argument psk was using for Ben against artis), and Manu isn't a high volume scorer anyways. however, manu can contribute in other ways as he's a great playmaker.
But who's arguing that Manu's a high volume guy in the first place? Did I ever suggest that the guy would be taking 15 shots a game? Manu's the kind of guy who will get 16-18 points on only 10-11 attempts because he gets to the line a lot and hits 3-pointers at a high rate. And could Majerle impact him slightly? Sure. But it's not like Dan Majerle was some all-time great perimeter defender. Hell, look at Manu's postseason numbers. The guy generally draws the opposing teams best wing defender every night and he still boasts a 57.7% career postseason TS%.

Manu has never been a volume scorer, but that's what makes him so deadly as a third or fourth option. He's not the kind of guy who needs to constantly chuck up 20-footers or handle the ball every possession to get his production. He plays within what the defense gives him, he makes those around him better and he doesn't take bad shots.

Sadds The Gr8
05-16-2014, 05:03 PM
But who's arguing that Manu's a high volume guy in the first place? Did I ever suggest that the guy would be taking 15 shots a game? Manu's the kind of guy who will get 16-18 points on only 10-11 attempts because he gets to the line a lot and hits 3-pointers at a high rate. And could Majerle impact him slightly? Sure. But it's not like Dan Majerle was some all-time great perimeter defender. Hell, look at Manu's postseason numbers. The guy generally draws the opposing teams best wing defender every night and he still boasts a 57.7% career postseason TS%.

Manu has never been a volume scorer, but that's what makes him so deadly as a third or fourth option. He's not the kind of guy who needs to constantly chuck up 20-footers or handle the ball every possession to get his production. He plays within what the defense gives him, he makes those around him better and he doesn't take bad shots.
I know....that's why I said Manu can still be effective and contribute in different ways.

Psk comparing him to Kobe kindve irked me and i see/agree with where tredigs was coming from there.

Shammyguy3
05-16-2014, 05:31 PM
I'm part of the wolf-pack that PSK is arguing for: ask a lot of guys in the Bulls' forum and they will tell you how much I have claimed Manu and Kobe to be statistically equal in production on the floor. I've dug up efficiencies, assist rates, rebounding rates, turnover rates, individual matchups, and so forth.

Manu is one of those guys who deserves just as much credit as Tony Parker for their rings in '05 and '07

The_Jamal
05-16-2014, 05:55 PM
PSK is dumbdumb

PatsSoxKnicks
05-16-2014, 06:39 PM
PSK is dumbdumb

Agreed, PSK is an idiot. He knows nothing. Manu sucks. Petrovic and Cooper are > Manu.