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View Full Version : NBA All-Time Redraft (1) Los Santos vs (8) Seaside.



Matter.
05-16-2014, 11:23 AM
Hello Everyone. Welcome to the NBA All-time redraft playoffs. These will be a battle between two made up teams from our host of GMs in to see who reigns superiority over all of basketball. Please read the write-ups and vote for who you think would win in a 7 game series.


Los Santos Has Homecourt Advantage!


Los Santos Depth Chart
PG: Jason Kidd/Sam Cassell
SG: Ray Allen/World B. Free/Otis Birdsong
SF: Ron Artest/Paul Arizin/Antoine Walker
PF: Clifford Robinson/Charles Oakley/Antoine Walker
C: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar/Al Jefferson

vs
Starters
PG: Kevin Johnson
SG: George Gervin
SF: Steve Smith
PF: Buck Williams
C: David Robinson

Bench
6th: Spencer Haywood
7th: Andrei Kirilenko
8th: Michael Ray Richardson
B: Sleepy Floyd
B: Jack Twyman
B: Anthony Davis
B: Zydrunas Ilgauskas

Los Santos Writeup:

Congratulations to Valade16 on making it to the playoffs, but His entry into the playoffs will be short lived and here is why.
Jason Kidd vs Kevin Johnson

Who would've thought that one time Jason Kidd, Kevin Johnson, and Steve Nash were all on the same team at one time, but who had the better career?

Jason Kidd has been to the playoffs practically every year in the league, A Whopping 17 straight seasons in the playoffs, that is a pretty amazing feat for one to accomplish. Kidd wasn't really known for his scoring but he could still average in his prime 14.5 points a game and he was also one of the best 3 Point Shooters ever averaged 34.9% of his 3's and 3rd in the All Time 3 Point Field Goals made list, only behind Reggie Miller at 2 and Ray Allen at 1 who is also on my team. Its not just Kidd's 3 point shooting ability that makes him great he is also one of the best dimers in the game, 2nd behind John Stockton, Kidd setting up easy passes to Ray Allen who drops the 3 Pointer with ease, or he could dish the ball to Artest, Robinson, or The All Time Scoring Leader Kareem Abdul Jabbar. Just wait, there is still more to Kidd, Defensively Kidd is 2nd in All Time Steals behind Stockton again. Now for Kevin Johnson, Almost the same can be said about his Defense and passing and even lights up multiple stats on any given night but he could never really control a game, Kevin Johnson has 1 key element in his game that may just plague him in a series against my team and that he liked to drive in the lane a lot then dish back out to set up a teammate for an open 3 but that is going to be very difficult when you have some of the greatest defenders on the other team in Jason Kidd, Ron Artest, and Kareem.

Ray Allen vs George Gervin

Most of you know Ray Allen because of his great ability to take and hit the 3 point shot right? Well do you guys remember when he use to play for the Bucks and Supersonics? He was one of the most underrated scorers back then and not to mention he could hit the 3 with ease. Ray was so diverse on the offensive side of the ball and also did quite well on the defensive side also. He also happens to have a ton of playoff and Championship experience 2 Time NBA Champion and still has a very good shot at making it a 3rd time as he is trying to win another with the Heat again. Just dont forget was never just a 3 point shooter. The thing about Gervin is that he was a scoring machine, He made an impossible shot look easy. He was the 1st ever guard to win 3 scoring titles in a row, He won 4 over his career, quite impressive for one to accomplish, but Gervin was really only known for just his scoring, he wasnt much of a passer he never had more than 4 Assist per game average in any season. So how can you stop one of the greatest scorers ever? Well you can put one of the greatest Defensive players of all time on him in Ron Artest, 2004 Defensive Payer of the Year, 2 Time 1st All NBA Defensive Team and 2 Time 2nd All Defensive Team.


Ron Artest vs. Steve Smith

As Stated above Artest is a great defensive player, He was also very efficient from the 3 point line, Artest was also very efficient within the 3 point line shooting .449% that is fairly good but Im not going to talk much about Artest because he was already mentioned earlier. Steve Smith was one of those players that was average offensively average FG%, their isnt really that much that stands out about Smith other than he won an NBA Championship in 2003, Ray Allen will be the guy to guard Smith, Allen shouldn't have too much of a problem guarding him. Their is a reason why Artest was taken way earlier in the draft than Smith.
Clifford Robinson vs Buck Williams

Clifford Robinson was underrated in my eyes when he played, Robinson is what you call a stretch Power Forward, From 1994-1996 Clifford was a 20 PPG guy, those were his best years in the NBA in terms of scoring, Clifford meshes perfectly with my team because he spaces the floor for others like Kareem, Kidd, Allen, and Artest. Robinson can hit the 3, defend, and score. Backing up and Platooning in situations is a New York Knick great Charles Oakley, Oakley is even better defensively than Robinson and could definitely stop Buck Williams from scoring too much. Buck Williams is a studd defensively although he is undersized for the position but being undersized may just plague him in this series. Williams racked up a lot of rebounds during his career but it will get extremely tough when guys like Artest, Robinson/Oakley, and Kareem are doing the same thing.

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs David Robinson

Now this will be the most interesting match-up as the 2 best players from the respective teams will be going at it head to head. Both were great scorers, both were great team leaders, and both were exceptional defensively. It's a shame that these two never got to play against each other. Kareem is known as the greatest Center of all time, he dominated all most every single guy he was against during his time, there were a few that got to Kareem but nobody dominated Kareem, NOBODY. Kareem is regarded as the 2nd best player ever in NBA/ABA history only behind the great Michael Jordan.

Conclusion: Los Santos should dominate this series, there really is no real threat on his Seaside other that the Admiral, but he has to deal with an even greater Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. I view my team like what the magic were a few years ago with Dwight, Lewis, Hedo, and Nelson.

Seaside Writeup

Why Steve Smith & Buck Williams? Because: Both were at one point the best player on a team they led to the playoffs but who later became extremely efficient role players. They provide the perfect qualities to be the role players but are both capable and talented enough to do more than a normal role player.

Steve Smith w/ATL: 4 straight years in playoffs and led team in scoring all 4 years at 19.3 PPG but who became a highly efficient role player in POR and SA averaging 10 FGA and shooting 40.4% from 3 while having a 58.6 TS%.

Buck Williams w/NJ: made playoffs 5 straight seasons and went to 3 All-Star games averaging 17 PPG and 12 RPG but who became a highly efficient role player in Portland averaging 12.2 PPG and 9.3 RPG while playing great defense (2 Def. 1st teams, 1 2nd team) and having a 62.6 TS% and a 58.1 eFG% (led league 2 years in a row).

Plan of Attack: Our strategy has 5 steps:

1. Any time KAJ is on the floor so is D-Rob. Why? We have an advantage with the rest of our big men. The only big men outside of KAJ they have are Clifford, Oakley and Al Jefferson. While all 3 are capable of playing Center, none are true Centers, and this allows us to put Haywood, Buck, and Anthony Davis in the game at PF/C without becoming a liability defensively. And that brings us to the 2nd key:

2. Our Bench has the advantage. The reason is simple: their best bench scorers will face our best bench defenders. World B. Free, Otis Birdsong and Paul Arizin will be facing Michael Ray Richardson (2x Def. 1st & 2x Def. 2nd teams) and AK47 (Def. 1st team & 2x Def. 2nd team). That will leave Charles Oakley and Al Jefferson to face Haywood, Anthony Davis and Zydrunas Ilgauskas off the bench. Spencer Haywood is a 4x All-NBA team honoree including 2 times on the 1st team. Our bench has the advantage, but even when their starters are on the floor, we will have the advantage because of our 3rd key:

3. We will beat them with efficiency. Our entire starting lineup are not only exceptional scorers, they are incredibly efficient scorers. Every single member has a TS% above 58.6%. Furthermore 3/5 starters on our starting lineup had 120+ Ortgs during their 3 year peak (Kevin Johnson, Buck Williams and David Robinson) and the other 2 are at 117 and 112 (Steve Smith and George Gervin). Our offense can shoot the ball with Smith and KJ, can drive to the hoop with KJ and Iceman, can post up with D-Rob and can run the fast break with KJ, Iceman, Haywood and D-Rob. There are no weaknesses offensively and any defense we lack in the backcourt is mitigated by our exceptional interior D with D-Rob and Buck and our defensive heavy bench (Ray Richardson & AK47).

Why does our efficiency matter so much? Because Los Santos is very inefficient. Kidd, while great was never very good at shooting until much later in his career. His first 14 years his TS% was 50%. Similarly Artest is not very efficient. His career average is 51% and his season best is 53.8%. The same is true of Clifford Robinson: His career TS% is 51.2% and his career high is 56.4%. The only efficient scorers they have are KAJ and Ray Allen, and we have David Robinson and George Gervin.

Bottom line: I dont think KAJ and Ray Allen are going to significantly outproduce D-Rob and Gervin, which is the central key to the 4th key:

4. We are going to make everyone else beat us. Our plan is to throw double teams at both KAJ and Ray Allen to force them out of their comfort zone. We want them to put the ball in somebody elses hand and force them to score. The primary guys we will be using to double team them are Smith/AK 47 and Buck. We plan to leave Kevin Johnson on Kidd. It would seem counter intuitive to do such a thing because that seems to be the exact strategy Los Santos is going for but they have one big problem:

Kidd, Artest and Clifford are not as great floor spacers as they think. Kidd did not develop a dependable 3 point shot until Dallas (when he was 35) and his 3PT% the first 14 years of his career was 33%. Similarly, when Artest was at his defensive peak his 3PT shot was at its worst and he averaged 31% his from downtown his first 7 seasons. Although Clifford is a better 3PT shooter than either of those 2 his career average is 35% and his 3 year peak was 37.6%.

Their shooters will not be able to match the efficiency that our team can create on offense and any runs they go on from getting hot at shooting will be wiped away when our second unit plays theirs. They are counting on the tandem of KAJ and Ray Allen to be led by Jason Kidd. I don't consider our tandem of D-Rob and Gervin led by Kevin Johnson to be that much worse (if at all) to make up for our complete domination in our efficiency and bench support.

This is why Seaside is not only capable of beating Los Santos, it is why they will.

Matter.
05-16-2014, 11:36 AM
Los Santos should advance

kdspurman
05-16-2014, 12:24 PM
Re-opened. Whoops :o

Chacarron
05-16-2014, 12:27 PM
Los Santos is my favorite in this whole thing. They advance here.

todu82
05-16-2014, 12:33 PM
Los Santos

Sadds The Gr8
05-16-2014, 01:03 PM
I think Los Santos is overrated but they win easily here

mightybosstone
05-16-2014, 01:22 PM
You could make a strong case that Los Santos is better at every single position in the starting lineup. Seaside's bench is superior, but I just don't think they can overcome that. I'd normally wait for the other team to respond, but I just don't see a scenario where I vote for Seaside here.

killthesux
05-16-2014, 01:33 PM
:clap:

valade16
05-16-2014, 01:58 PM
You could make a strong case that Los Santos is better at every single position in the starting lineup. Seaside's bench is superior, but I just don't think they can overcome that. I'd normally wait for the other team to respond, but I just don't see a scenario where I vote for Seaside here.

Probably gonna lose but have to set some things straight. The bolded is faulty logic because it doesn't show to what degree. With that logic a team of Hakeem and Scalabrine is as good as Ewing and Jordan because Hakeem > Ewing and Jordan > Scalabrine.

None of his players are THAT much better than their counterparts (if at all). The combined total of their 3 year peaks is 107.5, ours is 111.3.

KAJ 29.1 - D-Rob 29.8
Cliff 18.2 - Buck 17.2
Artest 17.6 - Smith 18.1
Allen 22.0 - Gervin 24.0
Kidd 20.6 - KJ 22.2

These teams are evenly matched talent-wise. This series will be about fit and efficiency, which as I said in my write-up they are lacking.

They have 3 inefficient scorers in their starting 5. Ray Allen and KAJ cannot outscore D-Rob and Gervin let alone everyone else.

Most of us have seen them in at their peaks so answer me: is there a soul alive who would actually call a kick out to Artest or Kidd for 3 a quality possession?

My team is a far more efficient, cohesive team. Ask yourself what advantage do they have that you would call a sizeable one? If they are better than us as I said it is barely and they are far less efficient.

xxplayerxx23
05-16-2014, 02:03 PM
I think Los Santos is overrated but they win easily here

This. Some of his write up is really funny.

killthesux
05-16-2014, 02:04 PM
Probably gonna lose but have to set some things straight. The bolded is faulty logic because it doesn't show to what degree. With that logic a team of Hakeem and Scalabrine is as good as Ewing and Jordan because Hakeem > Ewing and Jordan > Scalabrine.

None of his players are THAT much better than their counterparts (if at all). This series will be about fit and efficiency, which as I said in my write-up they are lacking.

They have 3 inefficient scorers in their starting 5. Ray Allen and KAJ cannot outscore D-Rob and Gervin let alone everyone else.

Most of us have seen them in at their peaks so answer me: is there a soul alive who would actually call a kick out to Artest or Kidd for 3 a quality possession?

My team is a far more efficient, cohesive team. Ask yourself what advantage do they have that you would call a sizeable one? If they are better than us as I said it is barely and they are far less efficient.

To say that my team doesnt fit with each other is pretty foolish, and BTW, Allen, KAJ, and Kidd were fairly efficient, Its not Kidds #1 job to score

xxplayerxx23
05-16-2014, 02:12 PM
Kidd efficient? Stop it. Also Kidd in his prime was an awful shooter. He got better as his career moved on. Like I sai you Winn easy here but Kidd and Ron aren't efficent, and cliff wasn't even regarded highly in his time, I just don't think much of him maybe it's just me. Oh as Kidd defensicley was good but I'm sick of seeing how
Overrated he has become on that side

valade16
05-16-2014, 02:13 PM
To say that my team doesnt fit with each other is pretty foolish, and BTW, Allen, KAJ, and Kidd were fairly efficient, Its not Kidds #1 job to score

It's not that your team doesn't fit, it's that my team fits better. And yes, Kidd is a distributor, but KJ matches his efficiency there too:

career AST%
Kidd 38.5
KJ 38.8

Highest AST%
Kidd 44.8
KJ 44.4

Career TO%
Kidd 18.8
KJ 16.7

Difference is KJ is a great 3rd scoring option, Kidd (or Artest or Clifford for that matter) are not.

killthesux
05-16-2014, 02:18 PM
It's not that your team doesn't fit, it's that my team fits better. And yes, Kidd is a distributor, but KJ matches his efficiency there too:

career AST%
Kidd 38.5
KJ 38.8

Highest AST%
Kidd 44.8
KJ 44.4

Career TO%
Kidd 18.8
KJ 16.7

Difference is KJ is a great 3rd scoring option, Kidd (or Artest or Clifford for that matter) are not.

Dont forget Kidd was awesome defensively also

mightybosstone
05-16-2014, 02:40 PM
Probably gonna lose but have to set some things straight. The bolded is faulty logic because it doesn't show to what degree. With that logic a team of Hakeem and Scalabrine is as good as Ewing and Jordan because Hakeem > Ewing and Jordan > Scalabrine.
I'm not trying to use the "Team X is better than Team Y because he's better at Z number of positions argument." I was just stating that I think they're a far more talented team from top to bottom.


None of his players are THAT much better than their counterparts (if at all). The combined total of their 3 year peaks is 107.5, ours is 111.3.

KAJ 29.1 - D-Rob 29.8
Cliff 18.2 - Buck 17.2
Artest 17.6 - Smith 18.1
Allen 22.0 - Gervin 24.0
Kidd 20.6 - KJ 22.2
I think you're focusing a bit too much on the whole "3-year peak" thing. No one really uses that. We do when we're comparing stats, but not for general discussion and debate. Also, so much of these All-time type games inevitably come down to personal preference. Some people might prefer Gervin to Allen, but I'd rather have Ray Ray. Others might think Smith was a better peak player than Artest, but I'd rather have Artest's toughness and defense. Personally, I just like the fit of his team better and think it's more talented.


These teams are evenly matched talent-wise. This series will be about fit and efficiency, which as I said in my write-up they are lacking.
This is where I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you. Los Santos has three guys I'd put in my top 40-50 greatest players of all-time without question and the guy I view as the second greatest player in NBA history in Kareem. You have one guy who's arguably top 20 and one other guy who might be worth talking about in the top 40-50, but that's about it.


They have 3 inefficient scorers in their starting 5. Ray Allen and KAJ cannot outscore D-Rob and Gervin let alone everyone else.
This is a good point, but also consider floor spacing, where I'd give them a pretty substantial edge. I'd say you're slightly better offensively as a unit, but that's only one piece of many that go into any matchup.


Most of us have seen them in at their peaks so answer me: is there a soul alive who would actually call a kick out to Artest or Kidd for 3 a quality possession?
Artest? Sure. I've seen that guy hit a ton of cold-blooded three-pointers late in big games. He also takes a ton of contested 3s that make you want to shoot yourself in the face, but if we're talking uncontested spot 3-pointers created by dribble penetration, I think that's a pretty damn good offensive possession. Although it kind of depends on which Artest you're getting. If you're getting Sacramento, Houston, LA Artest (which makes more sense for that team), you're getting a guy who doesn't mind being the second, third or fourth option, learned to make a jumper and played lock down defense. If you're getting Indiana Artest, not so much.

As for Kidd, I don't really see a kickout 3-pointer as a quality possession, but that's mostly because he's going to have the ball in his hand for 60-70% of the time. And again, that's sort of an issue of which Kidd we're getting. Older Kidd was actually a pretty reliable perimeter shooter.


My team is a far more efficient, cohesive team. Ask yourself what advantage do they have that you would call a sizeable one? If they are better than us as I said it is barely and they are far less efficient.
What advantage? How about defense? That's a pretty substantial one. You don't have a plus perimeter defender in your starting five so even if I gave you the slightest of edges in post defense, they're still a far, far better defensive team with four great defenders and one pretty darn good one in Ray. Michael Ray and AK47 are great, but how many minutes are they honestly going to get?

Also, how about championship experience? His starting five is full of guys with rings and players who are notorious for stepping up big in the postseason. Your starting five is full of guys with hardly any championship experience who are notorious for NOT stepping up big in the postseason. That may seem like a minor flaw, but in a game like this, that's not a flaw you want to have.

phlp_bj
05-16-2014, 02:45 PM
accidentally voted as a gm. meant to vote for the obvious choice

Shammyguy3
05-16-2014, 05:14 PM
I think Seaside matches up better than everyone thinks. I agree with their notions about Los Santos needing big games out of Ray Allen and KAJ to match Seaside offensively. I'll give Seaside more time to convince me, but there's a lot of talent to overcome on the other side.

killthesux
05-17-2014, 10:56 AM
bump