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View Full Version : NBA All Time ReDraft (2) Winterfell vs (7) Azkaban



killthesux
05-13-2014, 10:04 PM
Hello Everyone. Welcome to the NBA All-time redraft playoffs. These will be a battle between two made up teams from our host of GMís in to see who reigns superiority over all of basketball. There is a slight twist in this All-time: each team has a starter from each decade. Please read the write-ups and vote for who you think would win in a 7 game series.

Winterfell
PG: Tony Parker
SG: Bruce Bowen
SF: Bernard King
PF: Dirk Nowitzki
C: Patrick Ewing

6: Shane Battier
7: Marques Johnson
8: Vin Baker
9: Derek Fisher
10: Rick Mahorn
11: Bill Sharman
12: Louie Dampier

vs

Azkaban

G: Isiah Thomas - Kyrie Irving
G: Eddie Jones - Dell Curry
F: Paul Pierce - Tayshaun Prince - Billy Cunningham
F: Amare Stoudemire - Elton Brand
C: Bill Russell- Bill Cartwright - Jeff Ruland

Winterfell has Home Court advantage

Neither Team has submitted a write up*

killthesux
05-13-2014, 10:06 PM
Sorry forgot to make the other one public

Matter.
05-13-2014, 10:06 PM
Fokn idiot

Lucky.
05-14-2014, 03:05 PM
I had Azkaban ranked higher than anybody, while also feeling they match-up very well here. I'll take Azkaban.

Shammyguy3
05-14-2014, 03:21 PM
if this is the official thread, then here:


I think Winterfell will win this voting easily but this is a much better matchup than anyone would realize. Isiah would outplay Parker. Bowen is not as valuable because he's not guarding a quick athletic wing player. Stoudemire actually averaged almost 30ppg/13rpg on 55% in his only playoff matchup vs. Dirk (both in their primes). If people respect how good STAT was in his prime this could be a deep series. Plus, who do you trust in a big game? Bill Russell or Patrick Ewing? As much as it pains me to say it, I could see Ewing having some TERRIBLE like 6-19 type games. Azkaban remains the best Bill Russell team we've seen yet in a redraft. Nice job by both teams.


i don't have the time to make a full write-up due to studying, but i'll float this by you guys:

Isiah Thomas is one of the greatest assist/scoring combo guards to ever play. People forget that this guy averaged 10+ assists a game 4 times in his career (one season he put up 14apg) while also posting ast%es above 40% three seasons (even lead the league once). His mid-range shooting ability coupled with Amare's pick&roll will be a dominating aspect.

That will be a focal point of Azkaban's offense. Think about this: Tony Parker and Dirk Nowitzki being forced to defend the pick & roll excessively. If they stick Patrick Ewing on the pick and roll, then that leaves Dirk trying to outrebound Bill Russell.

Paul Pierce provides a fantastic second ball-handler and third option to the team, helping space the floor (37.0% from three) along with Eddie Jones who is a career 37.3% shooter from deep. Bill Russell is arguably the greatest passing center of all time, leaving 3 great passers in the starting lineup with himself, Thomas, and Pierce.

Defensively, we simply have the greatest DPOY to ever play the game anchoring a defense with Eddie Jones covering the opposing team's best scorers (in this case King). Eddie Jones made 3 all-defensive teams in his tenure in the league.

My team has it all: passing, scoring, rebounding, defense, and shooting. We have championship galore: a total of 14 championships in the starting lineup, 5 MVPs, 2 Finals MVPs, all-defensive teams, and so forth. Azkaban should advance in a long series.

ricky recon
05-14-2014, 03:24 PM
I can agree that Azkaban matches up well with Winterfell, in a draft involving all the players who have ever played, having a number one scorer like Pierce or Zeke isn't very impressive. Especially considering Winterfell having Ewing, Dirk, and King. I just don't see an outcome where Winterfell loses.

KnicksorBust
05-14-2014, 03:34 PM
if this is the official thread, then here:

That first write-up sold me. :)


I can agree that Azkaban matches up well with Winterfell, in a draft involving all the players who have ever played, having a number one scorer like Pierce or Zeke isn't very impressive. Especially considering Winterfell having Ewing, Dirk, and King. I just don't see an outcome where Winterfell loses.

Pierce and STAT (who crushed Dirk in their only h2h playoff match-up averaging 30ppg) were both good for an efficient 25ppg in their prime and Zeke has already proven he can run a championship offense. Plus Eddie Jones was a sharpshooter who average 18ppg in his peak. I don't think their offense would have much trouble scoring at all.

ricky recon
05-14-2014, 03:50 PM
How much, if all, was Zeke really better from a career standpoint over Parker? Not really at all if you ask me. Parker has been much more efficient, they both never were guys who improved their team's defense when on the floor. Neither of them were impressive rebounders.

AST/TOV Ratio(Career):
Zeke: 2.57
Parker: 2.40

When you take into the account how much more efficient Parker has been offensively, I think it's not a matchup that will dictate anything, even at the slightest.

Dirk would absolutely take Amar'e to school, and the Russell/Ewing battle would be great to watch, although you'd give that edge to the guy with 11 rings. The wing matchup Jones/Pierce vs. Bowen/King would be a battle as well, and it's really a matter of preference there. Personally I'd go King/Bowen because of the lethal strengths you have there. One scoring champ, and another all-time defender. I do like the balance and longevity of Pierce/Bowen though.

I don't like Irving as a backup point guard. You need roughly 10 minutes from him, you should've went with someone proven who can give Zeke rest. Not someone to be the offense generator. I prefer the talent and experience of Winterfell's bench in many ways, but not terribly.

I just can't overlook the Dirk/Amar'e matchup when everything else could be a dog fight.

ricky recon
05-14-2014, 04:10 PM
That first write-up sold me. :)



Pierce and STAT (who crushed Dirk in their only h2h playoff match-up averaging 30ppg) were both good for an efficient 25ppg in their prime and Zeke has already proven he can run a championship offense. Plus Eddie Jones was a sharpshooter who average 18ppg in his peak. I don't think their offense would have much trouble scoring at all.

The fact of the matter is almost everything you just stated was completely out of context.

Thomas being capable of running a championship offense in his own era is different than running an offense with players from all era, period. Eddie Jones has a career average of 14.8 points a game, he can hit open shots, but asking him to do anything more than that is grasping for straws.

Bringing inaccurate numbers from one series, out of context is what it is. Exactly what I just stated.

He scored 28.8 points.

Dirk did not guard Amar'e Stoudemire, and Amar'e sure as hell didn't guard Dirk. Amar'e was guarded by the worst starter on the Mavericks by a mile, ERICK DAMPIER. Amar'e didn't guard Dirk, and Dirk didn't guard Amar'e. Do your ****ing research. Dirk was guarded by Shawn Marion, one of the premier defenders in his time. I doubt Amar'e would have the same success against Ewing/Mahorn (both made all-defensive teams) versus ERICK DAMPIER AND ****ING SHAWN BRADLEY.

I think Paul Pierce and Isiah Thomas would have trouble keeping up offensively with Dirk Nowitzki and Bernard King, (and Patrick Ewing for that matter).

Shammyguy3
05-14-2014, 04:18 PM
Irving as a backup point guard who can space the floor for 10 minutes is fine.

Not to mention, as KoB already pointed out Amare's lone playoff matchup versus the Mavs and Dirk he was a beast. I don't see how you can say Dirk would absolutely take Amare to school without acknowledging that Amare would do exactly the same thing.

And ast/tov ratio isn't an indicator of much at all. A better metric to look at is their respective assist percentages. Tony Parker is a career 33.0ast% (career high is 40.4%) and his prime 3 years he posted a 38.4% rate. Isiah Thomas is a career 37.4ast% (career high is 47.9%) and his prime 3 years he posted a 43.5% rate.

Then conversely looking at their respective assist rates in the playoffs where it matters most:
Parker is a career 28.1% whereas Isiah Thomas is a career 37.4%. Factor in Parker's 13.3% tov rate and Thomas' career playoff 14.5tov% and it's far and away clear who can run a potent offense better.



And you say that Isiah Thomas isn't much different from Parker, and that Thomas is a poor #1 option for a contending team. Ha, that's all i have to say. Isiah Thomas is a career 110 ORtg in the playoffs on a 26.2usg% whereas Parker is a far inferior 103 ORtg on a 27.9usg%.

Amare Stoudemire is actually going to be the main option offensively though, and in the playoffs during his prime years with Phoenix he posted 25.5ppg on a 29.0usg% and a 116 ORtg. Paul Pierce's 108 ORtg on a 24.8usg% is perfect as a third option offensively.

ricky recon
05-14-2014, 04:22 PM
Dirk did not guard Amar'e in that series. He took Shawn Bradley and Erick "erica" Dampier to town.

I'm sure he'd play at the same level with Ewing and Mahorn (sarcstic). I'd imagine Dirk would guard Russell anyway because he is not a threat offensively.

ricky recon
05-14-2014, 04:25 PM
And by the way, Parker has a better player efficiency rating than Thomas for his career. So if you knew what ORtg was and how it applies, you'd realize that it's completely irrelevant comparing them to players on different teams nonetheless in different eras.

Beyond irrelevant. But it says offensive rating which sounds cool right? Learn what statistics are and how to apply them.

Sadds The Gr8
05-14-2014, 04:32 PM
The Dirk/amare argument goes both ways. Amare would have his way with Dirk guarding him as well.

Shammyguy3
05-14-2014, 04:33 PM
And by the way, Parker has a better player efficiency rating than Thomas for his career. So if you knew what ORtg was and how it applies, you'd realize that it's completely irrelevant comparing them to players on different teams nonetheless in different eras.

Beyond irrelevant. But it says offensive rating which sounds cool right? Learn what statistics are and how to apply them.

And Isiah Thomas has a higher PER in the playoffs, SO COOL!!!! It's obvious that only metrics that dictate certain players being better than others are recognized by you. And yeah, all of these guys play in different eras. But you seem to be saying that Isiah Thomas can't play in today's game, whereas you don't acknowledge Parker being able to play in the 80s.

The era argument works both ways. Isiah Thomas performing better in the playoffs than in the regular season, and outperforming Tony Parker in practically every facet of the playoffs however only works in favor of Isiah Thomas.

Shammyguy3
05-14-2014, 04:35 PM
Dirk did not guard Amar'e in that series. He took Shawn Bradley and Erick "erica" Dampier to town.

I'm sure he'd play at the same level with Ewing and Mahorn (sarcstic). I'd imagine Dirk would guard Russell anyway because he is not a threat offensively.

Putting Ewing on Amare simply brings the only rim-protector away from the basket allowing Russell to box out Dirk and leaving wide open lanes for Isiah Thomas.

xxplayerxx23
05-14-2014, 04:40 PM
This series is really closer then I first thought.

Shammyguy3
05-14-2014, 04:43 PM
change your vote :)

Lakers + Giants
05-14-2014, 05:09 PM
Yea, I really think Azkaban matches up extremely well here. I mean, Dirk is gonna go off on Amare, but Amare can easily do the same. .

After that, I like the rest of Azkaban's team more. Surprisingly, I think Azkaban wins pretty easily here.

Shammyguy3
05-14-2014, 06:50 PM
everyone make sure you vote on this matchup in this thread instead of the other one

todu82
05-14-2014, 07:16 PM
Azkaban

KnicksorBust
05-14-2014, 08:22 PM
The fact of the matter is almost everything you just stated was completely out of context.

So let's fill in the picture.


Thomas being capable of running a championship offense in his own era is different than running an offense with players from all era, period.

You're right. It would be easier for him now. He averaged 13.9 apg (I would round to 14 but that would be so grotesquely misleading) with Tripucka as his #2 option, Laimbeer as #3 and starters like John Long, Dan Roundfield, Terry Tyler playing filling in (Tripucka did not play 82 games). Other than Isiah, his teammates hit a total of 9 threes. That's it. 9 threes over an entire regular season. Look it up. If you can get 13.9 (not 14!) assists per game with no shooters just imagine how much easier life would be with Eddie Jones, Paul Pierce, and STAT to run pick and roll.


Eddie Jones has a career average of 14.8 points a game, he can hit open shots, but asking him to do anything more than that is grasping for straws.

Using career numbers is silly in this game and inaccurate. These games measure stars playing against each other in the prime of their careers. Also the idea that Jones can only be a spot-up shooter is absurd. You know who is a spot-up shooter? Steve Novak. You know who was a spot-up shooter? Steve Kerr. You completely ignore the fact that Eddie Jones had a 20.1 (still not rounding) points per game season averaging 1.8 threes. That's 5.4 points if my math is correct which still leaves 14.7 points unaccounted for? You don't suppose he ever drove to the basket do you? Or got to the free throw line? Or even, dare I say, created for teammates?!? Yes he did. In that same season he averaged 5.8 FTA per game and 4.2 apg. The idea that it's grasping at straws to expect anything but hitting an open shot is absurd.


Bringing inaccurate numbers from one series, out of context is what it is. Exactly what I just stated.

He scored 28.8 points.

The most egregious of my errors. If you look at my very first quoted post in the thread I said "Stoudemire actually averaged almost 30ppg." I'm not too far out on a limb here bud.


Dirk did not guard Amar'e Stoudemire, and Amar'e sure as hell didn't guard Dirk. Amar'e was guarded by the worst starter on the Mavericks by a mile, ERICK DAMPIER. Amar'e didn't guard Dirk, and Dirk didn't guard Amar'e. Do your ****ing research. Dirk was guarded by Shawn Marion, one of the premier defenders in his time. I doubt Amar'e would have the same success against Ewing/Mahorn (both made all-defensive teams) versus ERICK DAMPIER AND ****ING SHAWN BRADLEY.

Maybe you assumed I didn't watch Phoenix in the mid 2000s but you would be wrong. I remember Stoudemire used to played crazy minutes for those teams so your little historical report reeked of false bravado. The most embarrassing claim was you trying to blame Stoudemire's phenomenal results partially on Shawn Bradley and his whopping 11 minutes in 6 games. As you will see, STAT played significantly more minutes than Dampier in every game except Game 6 and was guarded by Dirk (a sub-par defender who couldn't keep up with him) for much of that series.

Game 1:
Dampier - 15 minutes
Bradley - 9 minutes
STAT - 38 minutes

Game 2:
Dampier - 27 minutes
Bradley - 0 minutes
STAT - 43 minutes

Game 3:
Dampier - 13 minutes
Bradley - 2 minutes
STAT - 46 minutes

Game 4:
Dampier - 32 minutes
Bradley - 0 minutes
STAT - 43 minutes

Game 5:
Dampier - 36 minutes
Bradley - 0 minutes
STAT - 44 minutes

Game 6:
Dampier - 30 minutes
Bradley - 0 minutes
STAT - 32 minutes


I think Paul Pierce and Isiah Thomas would have trouble keeping up offensively with Dirk Nowitzki and Bernard King, (and Patrick Ewing for that matter).

So then why leave out Stoudemire and Jones who are both viable offensive players?

mightybosstone
05-14-2014, 08:23 PM
Still waiting on Ebbs, but I won't wait forever. Leaning Azkaban at this point.

PatsSoxKnicks
05-14-2014, 08:27 PM
Haven't seen Ebbs in here to make any arguments. Does he know he's losing? :laugh2:

The_Jamal
05-14-2014, 08:38 PM
Putting Ewing on STAT would be an utter disaster for Winterfell, so I would think he'd avoid that at all costs. For starters, I'd hate to see Ewing try and deal with Amare's athleticism and guard him out to the high post. Then, by taking Ewing away from the basket, you're allowing Russel to dominate the series on the glass.

And absolutely agree with KoB about Eddie Jones. While he's certainly not an all-time great scorer, he's someone you have to pay attention to. I think it's crucial in this series that Winterfell can't switch Bowen out on IT without Jones taking advantage of TP on defense. Although, I still might take that trade of making Jones beat you, as opposed to IT.

Shammyguy3
05-14-2014, 10:03 PM
more votes

Ebbs
05-14-2014, 10:50 PM
I've been on plays for the last 24 hours...

Ebbs
05-14-2014, 10:50 PM
Can't see the poll from my phone.

Shammyguy3
05-14-2014, 11:17 PM
Right now it's 8-4 Azkaban

Ebbs
05-14-2014, 11:41 PM
Ok I'm beyond exhausted. But here is the summary.

1) If you think Prime Amare is close to prime Dirk kill yourself. That's not me being a homer, that's not me undervaluing the player he was in PHX. Because he was a hell of a player but come on... A six game series in 05 that Amare played well in? Are you kidding me? Are we really going to call that Dirk's prime? Before he won an MVP, got to the finals etc...? Isiah Thomas is a fantastic player but he isn't Steve Nash in terms of play-making. Amare also didn't face very many elite defensive centers in his hay day. He's going to have Ewing roaming the paint playing help defense. Let's also not forget how fragile Amar'e has been over his career. Rick Mahorn isn't going to play nice, he's going to come in and he's going to play dirty, gritty, bad boy basketball. He's going to give hard fouls. So don't try and tell me Amar'e is some out of this world x-factor in this series he isn't.

2) Why is Dirk getting overlooked? Shammy you should be ashamed of yourself, Dirk rebounding against the smaller Bill Russell being a problem is laughable. Dirk is bigger, and actually saw his rebounding numbers rise substantially in the postseason. Winterfell also has the bigger player at every position. So don't tell me I'm going to get cranked on the boards. Amar'e rarely guarded Dirk just FYI, Diaw, and Marion were the primary defenders on him during the Suns real runs. Amar'e is going to come out of the key and chase Dirk on the pick n' pop/roll? I don't think so.

3) So sick of the PSD fall in line affect. If I lose, I lose but when all the vets just side with the first point a veteran GM makes it's rather idiotic.

4) Anyone want to talk about the range of my bigs? Bill Russell who lived in the key is going to also have to come out of the key to guard Ewing's mid range game. Dirk and Ewing are opening that middle right up for Parker and King to attack the basket. . .

5) Bruce Bowen is going to make things tough on Pierce, one of the best perimeter defender's all time is going to be a factor in this series.

6) We are meaner, bigger, and will have better spacing. This team fits together far better defensively, and offensively.

7) The point of my team was chemistry. Everyone has superior talent, it's an All-Time game, you have to be a ****** not to have an incredibly talented team. However my team was picked to perform in the playoffs. My bench could've had seven regular all-star's but it doesn't because my team is going to be a team. I didn't want Kyrie coming in and playing ten minutes in an all time game when he hasn't even seen the playoffs in the puke worthy eastern conference right now. I want Fisher to come in and drill the big shot. I don't want fans clamoring that Elton Brand should get more minutes every-time Stat gets burned. I want a Mahorn who comes in hurts people, plays defense and gives Dirk a breather. We could post a million statistics on why so and so could do such and such. But this game more than any other is pure speculation.

So when it comes down to it, which team would blend best together? Which rotation would make more sense?

Finally JB come vote for me I have HCA.

Ebbs
05-14-2014, 11:52 PM
:laugh: I had 11 votes in the other thread. What a bunch of ****ing bull ****.

BAAHHH Bah keep moving psd flock of sheep.

KnicksorBust
05-15-2014, 11:12 AM
Ok I'm beyond exhausted. But here is the summary.

1) If you think Prime Amare is close to prime Dirk kill yourself. That's not me being a homer, that's not me undervaluing the player he was in PHX. Because he was a hell of a player but come on... A six game series in 05 that Amare played well in? Are you kidding me? Are we really going to call that Dirk's prime? Before he won an MVP, got to the finals etc...? Isiah Thomas is a fantastic player but he isn't Steve Nash in terms of play-making. Amare also didn't face very many elite defensive centers in his hay day. He's going to have Ewing roaming the paint playing help defense. Let's also not forget how fragile Amar'e has been over his career. Rick Mahorn isn't going to play nice, he's going to come in and he's going to play dirty, gritty, bad boy basketball. He's going to give hard fouls. So don't try and tell me Amar'e is some out of this world x-factor in this series he isn't.

Disagree. No one would dare argue that Dirk hasn't had the better career than STAT but just in terms of offensive skills, Amar'e was a dominant player who could average 25-26ppg on TS% > 60%. He proved that over multiple seasons and we got to see it first hand with Phoenix. He's not some 70s converted C. We saw him have these monster series and heís had stiffer big man competition than you seem to be willing to give him credit. Amar'e has faced Dirk, Tim Duncan, Pau Gasol, and Lamarcus Aldridge in the playoffs and believe it or not has outscored every single one of them. He's had multiple 40 point games against these PFs and they were all among the best in the game when he faced them. Even when Amar'e went to NY and had a bum like Felton at PG he still averaged over 25ppg. With Zeke (whose passing skills are well-known at this point) being guarded by Parker (since you admitted you are putting Bowen on Pierce) and Dirk on Amaríe that 2 man game would give Winterfell nightmares all series.


2) Why is Dirk getting overlooked? Shammy you should be ashamed of yourself, Dirk rebounding against the smaller Bill Russell being a problem is laughable. Dirk is bigger, and actually saw his rebounding numbers rise substantially in the postseason. Winterfell also has the bigger player at every position. So don't tell me I'm going to get cranked on the boards. Amar'e rarely guarded Dirk just FYI, Diaw, and Marion were the primary defenders on him during the Suns real runs. Amar'e is going to come out of the key and chase Dirk on the pick n' pop/roll? I don't think so.

So Russell was able to go toe to toe with the freakishly strong Wilt Chamberlain for rebounds but ďDirk rebounding against the smaller Bill Russell being a problem is laughable.Ē Iím sorry you lost me there.


3) So sick of the PSD fall in line affect. If I lose, I lose but when all the vets just side with the first point a veteran GM makes it's rather idiotic.

Love for you to name names on whose the sheep here. Pretty sure people can form their own opinions. You just donít seem to like the outcome thus far.


4) Anyone want to talk about the range of my bigs? Bill Russell who lived in the key is going to also have to come out of the key to guard Ewing's mid range game. Dirk and Ewing are opening that middle right up for Parker and King to attack the basket. . .

But you forget that Zeke and Pierce are both good defensively. Itís not as big an advantage when your counter argument is mid-range shooting from Patrick Ewing and drives to the basket against good defenders.


5) Bruce Bowen is going to make things tough on Pierce, one of the best perimeter defender's all time is going to be a factor in this series.

I agree that Bowen will make Pierce work. The only downsides I see are:
1. Historically Pierce has fared respectably well against Bowen teams. 24ppg on 46/32/77 with about 8 FTA per game.
2. Bowen has only averaged 6ppg in that series so you are sacrificing offensively.
3. This means you are not putting an elite defender on Isiah Thomas the orchestrator of his offense.


6) We are meaner, bigger, and will have better spacing. This team fits together far better defensively, and offensively.

I donít know how you are quantifying a Parker-Dirk-Ewing led team as ďmeanerĒ than Isiah-Pierce-Russell but thatís your opinion.


7) The point of my team was chemistry. Everyone has superior talent, it's an All-Time game, you have to be a ****** not to have an incredibly talented team. However my team was picked to perform in the playoffs. My bench could've had seven regular all-star's but it doesn't because my team is going to be a team. I didn't want Kyrie coming in and playing ten minutes in an all time game when he hasn't even seen the playoffs in the puke worthy eastern conference right now. I want Fisher to come in and drill the big shot. I don't want fans clamoring that Elton Brand should get more minutes every-time Stat gets burned. I want a Mahorn who comes in hurts people, plays defense and gives Dirk a breather. We could post a million statistics on why so and so could do such and such. But this game more than any other is pure speculation.
So when it comes down to it, which team would blend best together? Which rotation would make more sense? Finally JB come vote for me I have HCA.

The JB line was funny and I actually am fine with your bench. That doesnít swing the series for me though.


:laugh: I had 11 votes in the other thread. What a bunch of ****ing bull ****.

BAAHHH Bah keep moving psd flock of sheep.

We've always done a public vote. You know that as well as anyone. And the line about the sheep still seems like such a stretch. Is it that hard to believe that people might want to vote against your team because the arguments make sense? You ran into a bad match-up for your team.

Shammyguy3
05-15-2014, 12:24 PM
Ok I'm beyond exhausted. But here is the summary.

1) If you think Prime Amare is close to prime Dirk kill yourself. That's not me being a homer, that's not me undervaluing the player he was in PHX. Because he was a hell of a player but come on... A six game series in 05 that Amare played well in? Are you kidding me? Are we really going to call that Dirk's prime? Before he won an MVP, got to the finals etc...? Isiah Thomas is a fantastic player but he isn't Steve Nash in terms of play-making. Amare also didn't face very many elite defensive centers in his hay day. He's going to have Ewing roaming the paint playing help defense. Let's also not forget how fragile Amar'e has been over his career. Rick Mahorn isn't going to play nice, he's going to come in and he's going to play dirty, gritty, bad boy basketball. He's going to give hard fouls. So don't try and tell me Amar'e is some out of this world x-factor in this series he isn't.

2) Why is Dirk getting overlooked? Shammy you should be ashamed of yourself, Dirk rebounding against the smaller Bill Russell being a problem is laughable. Dirk is bigger, and actually saw his rebounding numbers rise substantially in the postseason. Winterfell also has the bigger player at every position. So don't tell me I'm going to get cranked on the boards. Amar'e rarely guarded Dirk just FYI, Diaw, and Marion were the primary defenders on him during the Suns real runs. Amar'e is going to come out of the key and chase Dirk on the pick n' pop/roll? I don't think so.

3) So sick of the PSD fall in line affect. If I lose, I lose but when all the vets just side with the first point a veteran GM makes it's rather idiotic.

4) Anyone want to talk about the range of my bigs? Bill Russell who lived in the key is going to also have to come out of the key to guard Ewing's mid range game. Dirk and Ewing are opening that middle right up for Parker and King to attack the basket. . .

5) Bruce Bowen is going to make things tough on Pierce, one of the best perimeter defender's all time is going to be a factor in this series.

6) We are meaner, bigger, and will have better spacing. This team fits together far better defensively, and offensively.

7) The point of my team was chemistry. Everyone has superior talent, it's an All-Time game, you have to be a ****** not to have an incredibly talented team. However my team was picked to perform in the playoffs. My bench could've had seven regular all-star's but it doesn't because my team is going to be a team. I didn't want Kyrie coming in and playing ten minutes in an all time game when he hasn't even seen the playoffs in the puke worthy eastern conference right now. I want Fisher to come in and drill the big shot. I don't want fans clamoring that Elton Brand should get more minutes every-time Stat gets burned. I want a Mahorn who comes in hurts people, plays defense and gives Dirk a breather. We could post a million statistics on why so and so could do such and such. But this game more than any other is pure speculation.

So when it comes down to it, which team would blend best together? Which rotation would make more sense?

Finally JB come vote for me I have HCA.

[/quote]

KoB already commented on Amare and Dirk's prime offensive production. They're absolutely comparable. If we're talking careers, then sure Dirk wins. But this isn't a career game, otherwise I would have Stockton on my team.

Zeke isn't Nash in terms of playmaking ability, no. But Nash is arguably the greatest passer ever at his position. That doesn't negate anything though - you don't have to be the greatest ever to be damn-right effective. I've already posted Zeke's assist rates, and KoB commented on how he achieved those rates with ZERO three point shooters on his team and no low/high post option in Stoudemire to work with in a pick & roll.

Ultimately, if you put Zeke/Stoudemire in a pick & roll match against Tony Parker and Dirk, Zeke/Stat will absolutely destroy them. If you put Ewing on Stat instead of Dirk, then that pulls away your rim protector leaving the paint open for Zeke to penetrate and allowing Russell to obliterate Dirk on the glass (don't think for a second that Dirk's height advantage means anything. There's a reason why Ben Wallace averaged 13.6rpg in the finals playing only 40mpg against Shaq, who only managed 10.8rpg in said series while playing more minutes -42mpg.

And that's a great rebounder going up against another great rebounder. You think Bill Russell would have difficulty out-rebounding Dirk? :laugh2:

Bigger players at every position, okay so what? Were the Pistons in '04 the bigger team against the Lakers? Height shmeight. I concede that Amare guarding Dirk on the perimeter will be a great difficulty, but I have the greatest Defensive Player ever in Bill Russell guarding the paint and locking down Patrick Ewing (who himself has always under-performed in the playoffs, the epitome of the opposite of Russell).

Bruce Bowen will be guarded on the perimeter by either Jones or Pierce, so I'm not worried about him blowing up and winning this series. Finally, I believe you think your team has more chemistry - i don't see it. Stat/Zeke fit together like a glove with two premier floor spacers that can take 4+ threes a game at a great percentage in Jones/Pierce. Russell, one of the greatest rebounders ever cleaning up the glass against Dirk Nowitzki, the definition of an average rebounder all-time.

The best part about that rebounding is, Bill Russell's fantastic passing ability. This guy averaged over 4.5 assists per game in 8 seasons. Give him an offensive rebound over Dirk, and the defense collapses allowing him to make easy passes out to my perimter shooters giving wide open looks, or he can pass it to a cutting Zeke/Stoudemire in the paint. Give Russell a defensive rebound, and there's a quick outlet pass leading to a fast-break for guys like Zeke/Stat/Jones, or even trailing threes by Jones/Pierce.

Your team is good, it provides its own mismatches. But my team simply matches up better against yours in my opinion. It's nothing about "sheep falling in line." It's about people voting for which team they feel wins man, this isn't some blow-out series.


:laugh: I had 11 votes in the other thread. What a bunch of ****ing bull ****.

BAAHHH Bah keep moving psd flock of sheep.

And I had 10 votes. Add your 11 to your 7 in this thread and you have 18 votes. Add my 10 to my 9 in this thread and I have 19 votes. Not bull-****, it's a tight race and there's still time for you to argue your case.

Ebbs
05-15-2014, 01:11 PM
Loll those votes are the same votes. People who voted for me originally changed their mind in the second poll. Because you guys blabbered on and I was in Florida.

Also there is a reason Dirk went in the first and Amare went in the third or fourth. Nowhere in the rules does it say we are only looking at three years of a players career. It's absolute ******** to discredit everything a player did and say Dirk = Amare because for a three year period it was close.

If a three year period was all that mattered than this game is beyond ******** and we all should've just cherry picked stats from prime years. That's not basketball, that's not the point of an All time game. The point of an all time game is to consider what each team has accomplished all time...

FFS how is this so confusing in the NBA game every year but works fine in the NFL game?

The_Jamal
05-15-2014, 01:42 PM
Winterfell squeaks by here in game 7. While Azkaban is a great match-up for them and has a lot of answers, it comes down to me trusting Dirk over anyone on Azkaban to win the series in the last 6 minutes, which is what I think it would come down to.

Shammyguy3
05-15-2014, 01:43 PM
This is the 2nd ATRD i've been in, and both it was a consensus that we're talking about prime years, not total careers. And yeah the reason why Amare went later than Dirk is because Dirk as a whole is a better player, but offensively they're absolutely comparable.

And there's no way of knowing who changed their mind. As far as I can tell the majority of votes right now are vets, and they don't make votes the second the thread is opened. And if you think sound reasoning for why my team beats yours in a series is blabbering, then fine be that way. You being away shouldn't negate the fact that I have explained why my team would win this series.

The_Jamal
05-15-2014, 01:44 PM
And Ebbs is absolutely right. While we take stats from 3 year primes, that doesn't mean careers should be totally ignored. Championships, playoff success, etc should all come into play for a team, whether positive or negative.

Shammyguy3
05-15-2014, 01:49 PM
Careers shouldn't totally be ignored, but we're not talking about comparing guys who aren't in their peak

valade16
05-15-2014, 02:12 PM
Careers shouldn't totally be ignored, but we're not talking about comparing guys who aren't in their peak

That's one thing I wanted to know as well. We are picking them when they played in their prime but counting their career accomplishments right? That doesn't mean it can be a wierd combination of their attributes when they were at their peak.

The reason I ask is because a guy like Jason Kidd, the guy has to choose whether he wants the in his prime Kidd that was athletic and a great defender but who couldn't shoot at all or whether he wants to the older, less athletic Kidd that learned how to shoot right? He doesn't get to combine the 2 and get a 28 year old Kidd but with the shooting ability of the 37 Kidd right?

Shammyguy3
05-15-2014, 02:51 PM
Yup, it's definitely hard to gauge what goes on. Typically, i myself have assumed career accomplishments (such as MVPs, finals MVPs, rings, all-defensive and all-NBA teams, etc) indicate the career and are used to demonstrate voters which way to vote whereas their peak on the court production is what ultimately is the basis of why my team > your team.

ricky recon
05-15-2014, 03:09 PM
Maybe you assumed I didn't watch Phoenix in the mid 2000s but you would be wrong. I remember Stoudemire used to played crazy minutes for those teams so your little historical report reeked of false bravado. The most embarrassing claim was you trying to blame Stoudemire's phenomenal results partially on Shawn Bradley and his whopping 11 minutes in 6 games. As you will see, STAT played significantly more minutes than Dampier in every game except Game 6 and was guarded by Dirk (a sub-par defender who couldn't keep up with him) for much of that series.

Dirk did not ****ing guard Amar'e Stodemire in the 05 WCSF. Erick Dampier, Shawn Bradley, and Alan Henderson guarded Stat. I have all 6 games on VHS. Go find a download online. Dirk guarded him a handful of possessions the entire series.

He didn't shred Dirk. He shredded the gaping weakness of the Mavs (center) for a decade (until Chandler came)


So then why leave out Stoudemire and Jones who are both viable offensive players?

Jones and Stoudemire being viable? What does that even mean? This is an all time redraft. Those guys can't carry a load. The three best scorers in the series are all on Winterfell. You're missing the point. This isn't about players who were able to score pretty well in their rightful eras. This is about players who are the top dog scorers of any era.

KnicksorBust
05-15-2014, 03:26 PM
First I notice you left out huge chunks of my post so I'm assuming you are agreeing that you were wrong about those sections. Here's what I'm left with:


Dirk did not ****ing guard Amar'e Stodemire in the 05 WCSF. Erick Dampier, Shawn Bradley, and Alan Henderson guarded Stat. I have all 6 games on VHS. Go find a download online. Dirk guarded him a handful of possessions the entire series.

He didn't shred Dirk. He shredded the gaping weakness of the Mavs (center) for a decade (until Chandler came)

Shawn Bradley played less than 2mpg in that series. Are you still seriously using him to explain Stoudemire's offensive explosion? I'm not even sure what you are arguing at this point. Are you saying Dirk would have actually defended Stoudemire well and swung the series? If so, it's a shame you weren't coaching the Mavs with that brilliant strategy. Avery Johnson couldn't have thought of that one.


Jones and Stoudemire being viable? What does that even mean? This is an all time redraft. Those guys can't carry a load. The three best scorers in the series are all on Winterfell. You're missing the point. This isn't about players who were able to score pretty well in their rightful eras. This is about players who are the top dog scorers of any era.

It means you are ignoring a 25ppg scorer with incredible scoring efficiency (+60% TS%) who can score in transition, finish pick and rolls at an elite level, hit jumpshots, and beat big/slow defenders off the dribble. That's what STAT did in his prime.

You are also ignoring a 20ppg scorer who could shoot, drive, and pass. How is that not valuable as a 4th option?

The fact that you condense the whole redraft down to "This is about players who are the top dog scorers of any era" speaks volumes. I'm sure an Iverson-Nique-Melo-McAdoo-Wilt team would be unstoppable right?

Sadds The Gr8
05-15-2014, 04:14 PM
I always thought the 3 year prime thing is dumb and too small of a sample size. That's why I never added up the stats for my players in any all-time game I've played. It should be 6-7 year primes that we look at, not peaks. Every player looks like a world beater if we just compare 3 year peaks

Shammyguy3
05-15-2014, 04:15 PM
How does winterfell have the 3 best scorers on their team? :laugh2:

Bernard King? Okay. After that, Dirk/Amare are even. Pierce/Ewing are even. Thomas/Parker are close, i give the edge to Thomas.

Shammyguy3
05-15-2014, 04:17 PM
I always thought the 3 year prime thing is dumb and too small of a sample size. That's why I never added up the stats for my players in any all-time game I've played. It should be 6-7 year primes that we look at, not peaks. Every player looks like a world beater if we just compare 3 year peaks

Agreed. 7 years is about how long peak level of play goes on, i never agreed with the 3 year prime rule of thumb but that seems to be what these games have been about.

Ebbs
05-15-2014, 04:29 PM
Pierce and Ewing are even :laugh: Pierce led how many contenders as a #1 option?

Dirk and Amare are even GTFO. Dirk carried a Mavericks team year after year with Terry, and Josh Howard as #2 option. Amar'e had the best playmaking point guard of all time in an offense that's recognized for inflating offensive numbers.

This is comedic

Shammyguy3
05-15-2014, 04:40 PM
Pierce led 2 contenders as a #1 option. How many rings has Pierce won as a #1 option? And how many rings has Ewing won as a #1 option? How inefficient has Ewing been in the playoffs as a whole, and how efficient has Pierce been in the playoffs as a whole?

Ewing has a 104 ORtg in the playoffs for his career. His usage rate was 27.5%. His PER was 19.6 and his ts% was 51.7% as a center.
Pierce has a 105 ORtg in the playoffs for his career. His usage rate is 26.5%. His PER is 17.6 and his ts% is 55.1% as a small forward.

Seems pretty even to me.

Dirk has a 117 ORtg 27.3usg% 24.2 PER 57.9ts% for his career in the playoffs.
Amare with the Suns**** has a 115 ORtg 28.2usg% 23.9 PER 58.8ts% in the playoffs.

Also seems pretty even to me. And regardless of if Amare had Nash, a player who made him better, he's in a damn near identical scenario with Isiah Thomas. So I don't get your point.

Ebbs
05-15-2014, 06:43 PM
Pierce led 2 contenders as a #1 option. How many rings has Pierce won as a #1 option? And how many rings has Ewing won as a #1 option? How inefficient has Ewing been in the playoffs as a whole, and how efficient has Pierce been in the playoffs as a whole?

Ewing has a 104 ORtg in the playoffs for his career. His usage rate was 27.5%. His PER was 19.6 and his ts% was 51.7% as a center.
Pierce has a 105 ORtg in the playoffs for his career. His usage rate is 26.5%. His PER is 17.6 and his ts% is 55.1% as a small forward.

Seems pretty even to me.

Dirk has a 117 ORtg 27.3usg% 24.2 PER 57.9ts% for his career in the playoffs.
Amare with the Suns**** has a 115 ORtg 28.2usg% 23.9 PER 58.8ts% in the playoffs.

Also seems pretty even to me. And regardless of if Amare had Nash, a player who made him better, he's in a damn near identical scenario with Isiah Thomas. So I don't get your point.

Pierce wasn't the best player on the 08 Celtics and everybody knows it. Who was the other contender? Pierce also shoots close to 3% less from the field in the postseason. He isn't exactly a killer. Not to mention he has prime Bowen on him.

Also if were doing three year primes what are you picking for Pierce? Because you don't get two way player finals MVP Pierce and early killer scorer on **** teams Pierce. That's complete bull ****.

Ewing took a team to the finals as clearly the best player on his team. Now he doesn't have to be, Ewing no longer has the same amount of pressure playing with Dirk, Parker former finals MVP's and a pure scorer like King. Essentially eliminating Ewing's largest weakness.

Also let's add some context to those stats for ****s sake. Dirk carried a Mavericks team year after year as the clear best player on the squad. Amare was playing in a system that inflated his numbers and everyone knows it. So are you telling me your team is going to run and gun with Bill Russell? Really? Come on now.

Also I'm not saying Nowitzki is a better rebounder than Russell but Dirk held his own rebounding against Duncan and Garnett in the post-season. So I don't think it's some sort of clear advantage. Also when Dirk flips to Russell even if he gets the board am I flinching? No because he's a terrible offensive player.

Ebbs
05-15-2014, 06:53 PM
Jamal also mentioned a rather obvious point Dirk is the best closer in the series. If it's close who do you think is the best option down the line?

I appreciate Shammy is a good 7 seed. But come on now. If Amare = Dirk. What's the point of these games?

Derrick Rose
Tracy McGrady
Adrian Dantley
Amare
Dwight Howard

should win the whole thing.

Zeke is the best player truly on Azkaban. He doesn't play in a lesser era like Russell, he didn't inflate his numbers in a system like Amare, and he didn't find success late in his career with two other hall of famers like Pierce.

And Zeke is marginally better than Tony Parker statistically.

Why are Zeke and Amare a far better combination than Parker and Dirk/Ewing on the PnR?

No one is scared of Bill Russell on offense. He shot less than 40% multiple times in the post season... So Ewing can help. The PnR of Zeke and Amare is not all that scary.

Shammyguy3
05-15-2014, 07:10 PM
Pierce wasn't the best player on the 08 Celtics and everybody knows it. Who was the other contender? Pierce also shoots close to 3% less from the field in the postseason. He isn't exactly a killer. Not to mention he has prime Bowen on him.

Pierce wasn't the best player but he was the #1 option, which is what you asked. And in 2009 they were absolutely a contender, even with KG being hurt. Pierce shoots 3% less from the field in the playoffs - what about Patrick Ewing who shoots 3% less from the field as well in the playoffs while not making up for it with three point shots or free throws?

Think about this: for such an offensive player, Patrick Ewing has a lower free throw rate than Paul Pierce all while shooting a lesser percentage and not being effective from beyond the arc. So you say that prime Bowen guards him - okay, i have enough faith in Pierce putting Bowen in foul trouble. Can't say I'm worried that much at all with Russell getting into any foul trouble against an anemic offensive player in Ewing (at least in the playoffs, which is what matters most).


Also if were doing three year primes what are you picking for Pierce? Because you don't get two way player finals MVP Pierce and early killer scorer on **** teams Pierce. That's complete bull ****.

The championship Pierce. The young buck Pierce who was a killer scorer isn't needed on this team since he's only a 3rd option. Pretty obvious.


Ewing took a team to the finals as clearly the best player on his team. Now he doesn't have to be, Ewing no longer has the same amount of pressure playing with Dirk, Parker former finals MVP's and a pure scorer like King. Essentially eliminating Ewing's largest weakness.

Ewing's pressure isn't as great sure, but Russell will absolutely kill him. And if you put Ewing on the pick & roll guarding Stoudemire, that simply works best for my offense as a whole.

I could just as much say that Isiah Thomas doesn't have the same pressures on him either, same with Pierce. Works for both teams.


Also let's add some context to those stats for ****s sake. Dirk carried a Mavericks team year after year as the clear best player on the squad. Amare was playing in a system that inflated his numbers and everyone knows it. So are you telling me your team is going to run and gun with Bill Russell? Really? Come on now.

So did the triangle inflate Jordan and Pippen's abilities on the court? Did it do the same for Kobe and Pau and Shaq? Did running the pick & roll not inflate Stockton's and Malone's numbers?

Sounds like a poor argument to me. Put Stoudemire in a system that he does fantastic in, and it should get discredited when he's being put into a damn near identical system on my team? Sorry i don't see it. The context is already there.


Also I'm not saying Nowitzki is a better rebounder than Russell but Dirk held his own rebounding against Duncan and Garnett in the post-season. So I don't think it's some sort of clear advantage. Also when Dirk flips to Russell even if he gets the board am I flinching? No because he's a terrible offensive player.

It's an obvious clear advantage :laugh2: Bill Russell outrebounded Wilt, one of the greatest rebounders ever. And Russell is not a terrible offensive player. That much is true - he's not a scorer, but he doesn't need to be. His passing provides optimal opportunities on the glass leading to wide open half-court shots and fast, transition opportunities. And Russell isn't a Ben Wallace or Tyson Chandler offensively in terms of scoring - averaged 15ppg in his career and had a career high of 18.2ppg


Jamal also mentioned a rather obvious point Dirk is the best closer in the series. If it's close who do you think is the best option down the line?

I appreciate Shammy is a good 7 seed. But come on now. If Amare = Dirk. What's the point of these games?

Derrick Rose
Tracy McGrady
Adrian Dantley
Amare
Dwight Howard

should win the whole thing.

Zeke is the best player truly on Azkaban. He doesn't play in a lesser era like Russell, he didn't inflate his numbers in a system like Amare, and he didn't find success late in his career with two other hall of famers like Pierce.

And Zeke is marginally better than Tony Parker statistically.

Why are Zeke and Amare a far better combination than Parker and Dirk/Ewing on the PnR?

No one is scared of Bill Russell on offense. He shot less than 40% multiple times in the post season... So Ewing can help. The PnR of Zeke and Amare is not all that scary.

Playing in a lesser era, Bill Russell still dominated. I guess we should discount Wilt Chamberlain and Oscar Robertson, because they're clearly worse than Isiah Thomas :eyebrow:

You don't need to be scared of Russell in terms of scoring, he's the 5th option on the team. But you should be scared of him destroying the glass and leading to ample second-chance opportunities with your best rebounder on the perimeter defending never-ending pick & rolls.

Lastly - you acknowledge Russell shooting less than 40% in the playoffs multiple times. Did you know that Patrick Ewing, who is supposed to be an offensive force, has shot 40% or less THREE times himself? Below 45% an additional three times (total of 6).

Ebbs
05-15-2014, 08:41 PM
https://twitter.com/SportsQuotient/status/467088260099874816/photo/1/large

- surprise. .. Where's Amare?

Only players to have .26 WS/48 in the playoffs 3+ times: Jordan, Kareem, LeBron, Dirk, and Dolph Schayes. Playoff beasts.

The only NBA players to have playoff ORTG's higher than 124 3+ times: Horace Grant, Reggie Miller, Dirk, Magic, CP3, Stockton, Buck Williams

Dirk is significantly more valuable than Amare. He is in a completely different tier offensively.

Ebbs
05-15-2014, 10:13 PM
bump

Ebbs
05-16-2014, 11:39 AM
Bump

Ebbs
05-16-2014, 12:39 PM
Where are MBT, and PSK?

Matter.
05-16-2014, 12:41 PM
miaaaaaaa

Ebbs
05-16-2014, 01:52 PM
if your a gm and you don't vote I know your playing politics..

mightybosstone
05-16-2014, 02:03 PM
Where are MBT, and PSK?

I've been on both sides of this one since I first saw the matchup, because I actually thought you were the best team in our conference all along, but Shammy's squad is such a horrible matchup for you. It's honestly a coin flip series to me.

I love the Parker to Dirk dynamic and how well those pieces fit around them on your roster, but I actually think Shammy has you beat talent wise from top to bottom. You have the better big combo, but he's totally superior from 1-3. The whole Ewing vs. Russell thing also doesn't do you any favors, either. Yeah, Ewing would probably still put up better offensive numbers than Russell, but his efficiency is going to be ****, and I'd trust Russell a hell of a lot more to perform in the postseason than I trust Ewing.

Plus, because you're both in my conference, I'm kind of in a damned if I do, damned if i don't situation. If I vote for you, I'm voting to let my biggest obstacle to the Finals through to the next round. If I vote for Shammy, it looks like I'm voting deliberately to get rid of my biggest obstacle to the Finals. If I'm being honest, I think I'm leaning toward Shammy, but that could be because I know in the back of my mind that you're the best team in the conference and I don't want to have to face you later (although Shammy's squad is damn good).

Long story short, it's a toss up and since I might have to face one of you later, I'd just assume stay out of it.

PatsSoxKnicks
05-16-2014, 02:10 PM
I'm going to vote at the last second (obviously some point today) since I'm still undecided

The_Jamal
05-16-2014, 02:21 PM
I've been on both sides of this one since I first saw the matchup, because I actually thought you were the best team in our conference all along, but Shammy's squad is such a horrible matchup for you. It's honestly a coin flip series to me.

I love the Parker to Dirk dynamic and how well those pieces fit around them on your roster, but I actually think Shammy has you beat talent wise from top to bottom. You have the better big combo, but he's totally superior from 1-3. The whole Ewing vs. Russell thing also doesn't do you any favors, either. Yeah, Ewing would probably still put up better offensive numbers than Russell, but his efficiency is going to be ****, and I'd trust Russell a hell of a lot more to perform in the postseason than I trust Ewing.

Plus, because you're both in my conference, I'm kind of in a damned if I do, damned if i don't situation. If I vote for you, I'm voting to let my biggest obstacle to the Finals through to the next round. If I vote for Shammy, it looks like I'm voting deliberately to get rid of my biggest obstacle to the Finals. If I'm being honest, I think I'm leaning toward Shammy, but that could be because I know in the back of my mind that you're the best team in the conference and I don't want to have to face you later (although Shammy's squad is damn good).

Long story short, it's a toss up and since I might have to face one of you later, I'd just assume stay out of it.

Just vote for whoever you think is better. As long as you justify your vote, (which you just sort of did for both sides) then no one can accuse you of playing politics. And in the case of this match-up, both teams are deserving of moving on. So it's not like one team is vastly superior to the other

PatsSoxKnicks
05-16-2014, 02:23 PM
I've been on both sides of this one since I first saw the matchup, because I actually thought you were the best team in our conference all along, but Shammy's squad is such a horrible matchup for you. It's honestly a coin flip series to me.

I love the Parker to Dirk dynamic and how well those pieces fit around them on your roster, but I actually think Shammy has you beat talent wise from top to bottom. You have the better big combo, but he's totally superior from 1-3. The whole Ewing vs. Russell thing also doesn't do you any favors, either. Yeah, Ewing would probably still put up better offensive numbers than Russell, but his efficiency is going to be ****, and I'd trust Russell a hell of a lot more to perform in the postseason than I trust Ewing.

Plus, because you're both in my conference, I'm kind of in a damned if I do, damned if i don't situation. If I vote for you, I'm voting to let my biggest obstacle to the Finals through to the next round. If I vote for Shammy, it looks like I'm voting deliberately to get rid of my biggest obstacle to the Finals. If I'm being honest, I think I'm leaning toward Shammy, but that could be because I know in the back of my mind that you're the best team in the conference and I don't want to have to face you later (although Shammy's squad is damn good).

Long story short, it's a toss up and since I might have to face one of you later, I'd just assume stay out of it.

ahem, worry about your next round opponent who had a nice romp in the 1st round, no need to make assumptions you even make it that far ;)

Ebbs
05-16-2014, 02:24 PM
I've been on both sides of this one since I first saw the matchup, because I actually thought you were the best team in our conference all along, but Shammy's squad is such a horrible matchup for you. It's honestly a coin flip series to me.

I love the Parker to Dirk dynamic and how well those pieces fit around them on your roster, but I actually think Shammy has you beat talent wise from top to bottom. You have the better big combo, but he's totally superior from 1-3. The whole Ewing vs. Russell thing also doesn't do you any favors, either. Yeah, Ewing would probably still put up better offensive numbers than Russell, but his efficiency is going to be ****, and I'd trust Russell a hell of a lot more to perform in the postseason than I trust Ewing.

Plus, because you're both in my conference, I'm kind of in a damned if I do, damned if i don't situation. If I vote for you, I'm voting to let my biggest obstacle to the Finals through to the next round. If I vote for Shammy, it looks like I'm voting deliberately to get rid of my biggest obstacle to the Finals. If I'm being honest, I think I'm leaning toward Shammy, but that could be because I know in the back of my mind that you're the best team in the conference and I don't want to have to face you later (although Shammy's squad is damn good).

Long story short, it's a toss up and since I might have to face one of you later, I'd just assume stay out of it.

If it's a coin flip series.

HCA - Winterfell
Best player - Dirk
Best closer - Dirk
Best on ball defender in a last second scenario - Bowen

PatsSoxKnicks
05-16-2014, 02:24 PM
****, I could seriously decide this if MBT doesn't vote?

Ebbs
05-16-2014, 02:28 PM
Seriously it's basketball and you believe it's that close how do you not give it to the Dirk team?

They have no defender that provides a real problem for him.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BntuS-ECUAEbbH3.jpg:large

PatsSoxKnicks
05-16-2014, 02:32 PM
I am leaning towards Winterfell but Shammy's made a ton of great points and for as clutch as Dirk is in the postseason, Ewing is every bit as not. Likewise, for as much as I hate Isiah (which could be affecting my vote), he was really clutch in the postseason. Raised his game up big time. (Though he's a bum in the regular season and I hate that). I also think that while I take Nash over Isiah (maybe the only person in the world who does), that Isiah could at least come close to replicating what Nash does for Amare. Also, Pierce does have a ring as a #1b (though KG was more important, Pierce was the leading scorer) and he's got a Finals MVP. Obv, Bill Russell might be the most clutch athlete of them all, even if he is a dud offensively. But, TP and Bowen are hella clutch as well. Ultimately, not sure this series comes down to who has more clutch players since both teams do. So I think I'm just going to ignore that aspect and focus on the matchup itself.

PatsSoxKnicks
05-16-2014, 02:34 PM
Seriously it's basketball and you believe it's that close how do you not give it to the Dirk team?

They have no defender that provides a real problem for him.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BntuS-ECUAEbbH3.jpg:large

That stat is really good btw. Wish all the CP3 haters would look at it....Because ya know, averaging 22-12 on 50% shooting isn't doing enough :rolleyes:

Sorry for the off-topic rant but yeah cool stat. But that's just current players right?

Ebbs
05-16-2014, 02:34 PM
I'd like to note that Ewing is in a different situation though.

He won't feel the same amount of pressure. We aren't going to give him the ball with six seconds left and force him to make a basket.

PatsSoxKnicks
05-16-2014, 02:36 PM
I'd like to note that Ewing is in a different situation though.

He won't feel the same amount of pressure. We aren't going to give him the ball with six seconds left and force him to make a basket.

That's true, which is why I think I want to just look at the matchup. I like Winterfell's talent a bit more but the more I look at Azkaban, the more I realize that team is almost as talented. Tough vote.

Ebbs
05-16-2014, 02:39 PM
If I lose I lose. Shammy put up a valiant fight.

I think I deserve to win. I think my team would finish this series at home in game seven.

But if one more person tries to claim Amar'e and Dirk are "close" I'll go postal.

mightybosstone
05-16-2014, 02:47 PM
Just vote for whoever you think is better. As long as you justify your vote, (which you just sort of did for both sides) then no one can accuse you of playing politics. And in the case of this match-up, both teams are deserving of moving on. So it's not like one team is vastly superior to the other
We'll see. If it comes down to it, and I have to vote, I'll make my decision and vote before I head out to dinner tonight with the future Mrs. MBT.

ahem, worry about your next round opponent who had a nice romp in the 1st round, no need to make assumptions you even make it that far ;)
:lol: Sorry, man. I wasn't trying to make it sound like I was a lock for the conference finals. I was just stating that I thought Winterfell was the best team in the conference. Obviously our matchup in the second round will be a tough one and I look forward to it.

If it's a coin flip series.

HCA - Winterfell
Best player - Dirk
Best closer - Dirk
Best on ball defender in a last second scenario - Bowen
Mmm.... I'm gonna have to agree to disagree on this one slightly.

HCA - Winterfell
Best player - Russell
Best closer - Dirk (but Pierce isn't a bad second option)
Best on ball perimeter defender in a last second scenario - Bowen
Best on ball post defender in a last second scenario - Russell

Having HCA and Dirk does help though. Like I said, if it comes down to a tie and I have to vote before I head out later, I'll make a decision and vote. I'm hoping it doesn't come to that.

The_Jamal
05-16-2014, 02:47 PM
If I lose I lose. Shammy put up a valiant fight.

I think I deserve to win. I think my team would finish this series at home in game seven.

But if one more person tries to claim Amar'e and Dirk are "close" I'll go postal.

That might have swung me into your favor tbh. While I think Amare WOULD have a good series, it's been far overstated that Amare could match up with Dirk's production

Jets012
05-16-2014, 02:58 PM
I'll break this up. I'll go with Winterfell by a hair just due to Dirk over Amare. Amare will struggle to to keep up with Dirk and I think Ewing would be able to slow down Amare a bit defensively.

Azkaban will just struggle to score IMO. Whole having someone like Russell to rotate over defensively helps immensely, Dirk is/was a good enough passer to get Ewing open looks too. You cant underrate the job Bowen would do slowing down Pierce.

Excellent write ups by both, but Azkaban just got a terrible seed IMO. Winterfell had a horrible matchup, but I think they'd get it done by the slimmest of margins.

Ebbs
05-16-2014, 03:05 PM
We'll see. If it comes down to it, and I have to vote, I'll make my decision and vote before I head out to dinner tonight with the future Mrs. MBT.

:lol: Sorry, man. I wasn't trying to make it sound like I was a lock for the conference finals. I was just stating that I thought Winterfell was the best team in the conference. Obviously our matchup in the second round will be a tough one and I look forward to it.

Mmm.... I'm gonna have to agree to disagree on this one slightly.

HCA - Winterfell
Best player - Russell
Best closer - Dirk (but Pierce isn't a bad second option)
Best on ball perimeter defender in a last second scenario - Bowen
Best on ball post defender in a last second scenario - Russell

Having HCA and Dirk does help though. Like I said, if it comes down to a tie and I have to vote before I head out later, I'll make a decision and vote. I'm hoping it doesn't come to that.

Pierce is overrated as a go to offensive player.

Best offensive win shares in the post season minimum of seven games played best to worst:


Paul Pierce
1.6
1.1
1.0
.9
.9
.7
.4
.3

Bernard King
2.1[/B]


Amar'e:
2.4
1.5
1.3

Dirk
3.8
2.7
1.9
1.7
1.4
1.1
.9

again Dirk crushes Amare.

The 3.8 Offensive winshares in the 05-06 postseason from Dirk are the second most by any player all time, save LeBron in 2011-12

Ebbs
05-16-2014, 03:07 PM
I got penalized I think by some voters for having lesser peaks. But in terms of playoff production My #1 and #2 options were the superior post season players in their peak.

Ebbs
05-16-2014, 03:14 PM
I'd also like to note that I'm going to godzilla so I won't be on much more but is Bernard King being ignored?

Shammy or Kob pointed out Amar'e had a three year peak with a .6 TS%.

I'd like to note Bernard King had a three year peak where had a .60 TS%, 14.6 OWS, and averaged 28.8 Points per game.

mightybosstone
05-16-2014, 03:14 PM
Pierce is overrated as a go to offensive player.

Best offensive win shares in the post season minimum of seven games played best to worst:

But this was not a discussion of "who is the most productive go-to offensive postseason player." It was who was the best closer, meaning who do I want to manufacture points late in tight games. Obviously Dirk is the more productive go-to guy, but I think Pierce is every bit as capable of hitting big shots late in games.

Ebbs
05-16-2014, 03:15 PM
But this was not a discussion of "who is the most productive go-to offensive postseason player." It was who was the best closer, meaning who do I want to manufacture points late in tight games. Obviously Dirk is the more productive go-to guy, but I think Pierce is every bit as capable of hitting big shots late in games.

Well the percentages definitely disagree with that. But I was also posting that from the perspective of you voting on the matchup more than the clutch play. Or maybe that was PSK not sure.

mightybosstone
05-16-2014, 03:20 PM
That might have swung me into your favor tbh. While I think Amare WOULD have a good series, it's been far overstated that Amare could match up with Dirk's production


I'll break this up. I'll go with Winterfell by a hair just due to Dirk over Amare. Amare will struggle to to keep up with Dirk and I think Ewing would be able to slow down Amare a bit defensively.

Azkaban will just struggle to score IMO. Whole having someone like Russell to rotate over defensively helps immensely, Dirk is/was a good enough passer to get Ewing open looks too. You cant underrate the job Bowen would do slowing down Pierce.

Excellent write ups by both, but Azkaban just got a terrible seed IMO. Winterfell had a horrible matchup, but I think they'd get it done by the slimmest of margins.

I understand that Dirk is a superior player to Amare, but to me, that's not a good enough excuse to vote for Winterfell. Hell, if that's your argument, I'll just counter with "Well, Azkaban is better at the other four positions. 4 is better than 1 last time I checked." Pierce is more than capable of being a good first or second option in the postseason as are Thomas and Stoudemire. And Jones and Russell are the perfect 4 and 5 offensively.

Personally, I just think Azkaban has the more talented starting five, I like the way they fit on paper a little better and how they match up with Winterfell.

Shammyguy3
05-16-2014, 03:39 PM
Looks like this one is coming down to the wire. As it should. I think IRL this series goes 7 games without question. If it comes down to the final few minutes of a series, I'd take my defense over Winterfell's defense and like MBT is stating, outside of Dirk being better than Amare, I have arguably the other 4 best starters in the series (arguably, nothing definitive but there's definitely IT > Parker and Jones > Bowen and Russell > Ewing; the only thing that's close is Pierce and King, but Pierce is a much more well-rounded player and even though King's a beast efficiency wise on offense, Pierce is also elite in that regard.

Ebbs
05-16-2014, 03:49 PM
Well saying you have the better other four starters is sort of a stretch. Bowen is a better fifth player than Jones. Jones is the better player but his marginally better offense as your fifth option doesn't make up for his significantly lesser defense.

Isiah is better than Parker but not enough to swing a matchup. Pick your poison with Pierce and King.

Ewing who is bashed for playoff play and Russell who is praised through first 13 seasons.

Ewing: FG% .478, 20.1 PER
Russell FG% .430, 19.4 PER.

Let's not get crazy.

I also think if it's a close series go with the bench that has all time great role players...

Ebbs
05-16-2014, 03:56 PM
Russell gets too much credit for playing in era we didn't watch.

In a league that provided a much shorter road to a championship.

Playing on a super team that was in it's own league.

Most of his praise is based on leadership, defense, and intangibles. More or less immeasurable factors.

So what are we left with Bill Russell? Speculation and mediocre numbers in an era of inflated statistics.

Shammyguy3
05-16-2014, 04:13 PM
Well saying you have the better other four starters is sort of a stretch. Bowen is a better fifth player than Jones. Jones is the better player but his marginally better offense as your fifth option doesn't make up for his significantly lesser defense.

Jones' ability to penetrate the lane give me 4 players that can all attack the basket and convert at the charity stripe. And while Bowen's fantastic defensively, Eddie Jones made 3 all-nba defensive teams so let's not exaggerate the disparity between their defense. And like others have alluded to, his impact isn't nearly as grand as one would think considering he isn't even guarding my second option offensively.

Jones is not only a far superior offensive player, and an All-NBA defender, he is also a solid passer (career 14.7ast%, career highs of 19% two times). Bruce Bowen does nothing offensively besides stand in the corner (career 6.9ast%). That gives Jones and Pierce ample time to rest while taking turns on King.

Jones is a much better player, it's not even close.


Isiah is better than Parker but not enough to swing a matchup. Pick your poison with Pierce and King.

It's not just Parker that's swinging a matchup though. It's my overall team matching up really well with yours, and probably putting your team in tougher situations on defense than your team will do to mine on defense.


Ewing who is bashed for playoff play and Russell who is praised through first 13 seasons.

Ewing: FG% .478, 20.1 PER
Russell FG% .430, 19.4 PER.

Let's not get crazy.

I also think if it's a close series go with the bench that has all time great role players...

We're comparing two players in two different eras here, let's remember that. Lastly, Ewing isn't your last option offensively. Having a center that shoots 47.8% from the field but can't shoot beyond the arc isn't impressive at all especially considering those numbers Ewing would post would go down against Russell whereas if Russell is being guarded by Dirk, all he has to do is get a rebound or accept a pass after penetration for a dunk (so his percentages would increase).


Russell gets too much credit for playing in era we didn't watch.

In a league that provided a much shorter road to a championship.

Playing on a super team that was in it's own league.

Most of his praise is based on leadership, defense, and intangibles. More or less immeasurable factors.

So what are we left with Bill Russell? Speculation and mediocre numbers in an era of inflated statistics.

Is Russell not surrounded by a perfect supporting cast? The context you refer to would make sense if Russell wasn't surrounded by guys like Thomas/Pierce/Stoudemire. And to discredit Russell for playing in an era we didn't watch isn't fair: Ewing played in an era we did watch, but didn't perform.

Which would you rather have? A player that performed better in the playoffs and because of his play he anchored one of the best dynasties ever. Or would you have a player who for his career didn't live up to expectations and never won a ring.

What we are left with Russell is the epitome of leadership, experience, exceptional passing/rebounding/defense especially in the post-season. What are we left with Patrick Ewing is the real question: not speculation but statistical facts of underperforming and not getting it done.

Shammyguy3
05-16-2014, 04:28 PM
And if we want to bring up bench role players, how can you bring up Tayshaun Prince Elton Brand and Bill Cartwright. ****, Elton Brand can start in this game without me losing spacing and he provides a viable option as well if he needs to come in defensively. Not to mention, Tayshaun Prince's elite defense off the bench to spell either Jones or Pierce when they're guarding King. And needless to say, Prince is a better all-around player than Bowen is with his passing ability and respectable 36.6% from deep for his career.

mightybosstone
05-16-2014, 04:29 PM
Wow. A tie. Seriously? Someone needs to vote so I don't have to.

Ebbs
05-16-2014, 04:32 PM
Prince is better than Bowen in backwards land. 39.3 from 3, 42.2 from 3 in the post season. And he's the better defender.

I think your missing that as the fifth best player on the floor he's their to play a role... The role is 3 and D. Of which Bowen is top of the crop. Battier gives me what Prince gives you...

Also Ewing is my 3A/B option. It's not like I need 20-25 from him every night.

Ebbs
05-16-2014, 04:33 PM
I'm in the theatre for Godzilla who tied it up voting for Shammy?

PatsSoxKnicks
05-16-2014, 04:43 PM
Wow. A tie. Seriously? Someone needs to vote so I don't have to.

I was going to vote at the end, hoping that I don't break a tie. So you vote first.

Shammyguy3
05-16-2014, 04:44 PM
Prince is better than Bowen in backwards land. 39.3 from 3, 42.2 from 3 in the post season. And he's the better defender.

I think your missing that as the fifth best player on the floor he's their to play a role... The role is 3 and D. Of which Bowen is top of the crop. Battier gives me what Prince gives you...

Also Ewing is my 3A/B option. It's not like I need 20-25 from him every night.

Bowen's better than Prince, but Prince can hurt you in more ways. He's not just a 3&D guy. And with Russell anchoring my defense, i can just have Jones or Pierce standing next to Bowen on the perimeter since that's all he ever does, so i'm not even that worried about his floor spacing.

And yeah, Battier and Prince are comparable, but Prince did win a ring as an integral part of a team (more than just a role player). Battier's rings have come after his prime. Does that mean much? No, but i'm just saying.

And yeah, Ewing is your 3rd option, maybe even fourth. Which brings up another question: Who is your 1st option? I'm guessing it's Dirk, in which case I'd be interested to hear how King will play next to a 28usg% guy himself since he's also a 28usg% guy himself. I don't see King/Dirk working off each other as well as my guys compliment each other.



All in All, idk what else we could argue about :shrug: I think everything i've said has been countered by you, and everything you've said I've countered myself. It's up to the voters now. :cheers:

Ebbs
05-16-2014, 04:52 PM
Lol true these always come to circles. Who can rub their dick harder.

Well my knob is chafing so I'm gonna watch a movie and check this later.

Shammyguy3
05-16-2014, 05:08 PM
Yeah especially when the poll is open for 3 days. I don't remember if that's the norm for NBA games but for the Bulls games i've run i always put it at 2 days

Shammyguy3
05-16-2014, 06:26 PM
bump

The_Jamal
05-16-2014, 06:29 PM
Yeah especially when the poll is open for 3 days. I don't remember if that's the norm for NBA games but for the Bulls games i've run i always put it at 2 days

Well they ****ed the original poll up/

Shammyguy3
05-16-2014, 06:34 PM
true, i don't know why it took so long for it to close. KTS asked a mod to close it in the thread, but instead he should've just VMed one like I did. If I didn't VM kdspurs idk if that would've been closed at all, and then the situation would be worse

Shammyguy3
05-16-2014, 07:59 PM
I just realized that one of my votes (bootypants) doesn't count because the dude doesn't have 100 posts (i'm assuming we're abiding by that rule of thumb still). In which case, let's get the rally caps on for an Azkaban Dementor-like comeback people!

HoopsDrive
05-16-2014, 08:45 PM
I'm in the theatre for Godzilla who tied it up voting for Shammy?

that was me, i didn't know it was tied

was bored at work and started reading through all the pages until i got convinced by one side

Shammyguy3
05-16-2014, 08:49 PM
Glad I could convince you :D

Ebbs
05-16-2014, 08:51 PM
Haha curse you HD!

I'm up 2?

Ebbs
05-16-2014, 08:51 PM
Godzilla was meh just so everyone knows

Shammyguy3
05-16-2014, 09:29 PM
PSK and MBT, c'mon guys vote!!!!! Because if you guys don't vote, perhaps others that would vote for my team if their vote mattered wouldn't since right now Ebbs is up by multiple votes.

Ebbs
05-16-2014, 09:32 PM
Vote for Winterfell though lol. Otherwise continue abstaining

PatsSoxKnicks
05-16-2014, 10:13 PM
whoa thought the poll closed at 10:30

Matter.
05-16-2014, 10:25 PM
Congrats Ebbs

Ebbs
05-16-2014, 10:49 PM
That was the hardest I had to work as a top seed to move on.

Guess that was my Achilles heel and I'll have to massacre peeps from here out.

Well done shammy

Shammyguy3
05-17-2014, 09:26 AM
congrats Ebbs, well earned

mightybosstone
05-17-2014, 10:03 AM
Sorry for not voting guys, but I was trying to get some work done and ended up leaving a lot earlier last night than I had originally anticipated. What a great series though. Awesome jobs by both GMs.

Shammyguy3
05-17-2014, 10:54 AM
you and PSK can still say who you would've voted for if you did get the vote in :) i'm interested to know

Ebbs
05-17-2014, 11:13 AM
Yea even though were past the deadline kind of curious. For ***** and gigs

mightybosstone
05-17-2014, 01:25 PM
I probably would have voted for Azkaban. It was really, really close and I think Winterfell is the slightly better constructed basketball team. But I just did not like the matchup for that starting five, I hated Ewing going against Russell and Azkaban's roster is just full of guys I like and trust in the postseason. This was definitely a coin flip series, and it's got to be one of the closest first round matchups we've ever had.

PatsSoxKnicks
05-17-2014, 02:20 PM
I was probably going to vote for Winterfell (although I wanted to read the entire thread but when I saw voting had ended, I postponed that). Admittedly, I have some biases against both Isiah Thomas (who I do think is a bit overrated) and Russell (although given the context in this matchup, I doubt those biases came into play). But honestly, I don't really see much of a difference between Isiah and Parker (look at their top seasons WS/48 and PER wise) and I like the Dirk-Ewing frontcourt more than Amare-Russell, which is pretty close admittedly. Then again, I do take Pierce over King. Seriously talking myself into Azkaban now...:laugh2:

But yeah, I was leaning towards Winterfell.