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View Full Version : Where does Tony Parker rank all time PG?



FlashBolt
05-12-2014, 11:14 PM
I'd have him top 5 tbh. Consistent and always plays well.

Ebbs
05-12-2014, 11:19 PM
He's higher than most give him credit for but top 5?

What's your list?

MrfadeawayJB
05-12-2014, 11:29 PM
Closing in on top 10. He'll never get full credit because he's playing with two hof's and the greatest pf ever, Tim Duncan

cmellofan15
05-12-2014, 11:48 PM
yeah...I don't really have a point guard ranking off of the top of my head but I don't think he'd be in my top 5. Probably put Magic, West, Stockton, Zeke, Big O, Nash, Frazier. that's off the top of my head, I'm sure I'm forgetting some.

BklynKnicks3
05-12-2014, 11:59 PM
Parker is a all star not great like other pgs he plays for a team a that won a chip without him 2 of his rings he avg 14 n 3,14 n 5 stop it

BklynKnicks3
05-12-2014, 11:59 PM
Parker is a all star not great like other pgs he plays for a team a that won a chip without him 2 of his rings he avg 14 n 3,14 n 5 stop it

jerellh528
05-13-2014, 12:33 AM
We have this thread whenever the playoffs roll around because he always kills it in the postseason

Crackadalic
05-13-2014, 01:20 AM
I put all those guys ahead of tony Parker. Underrated but not top 5 at all

Magic
Stockton
Kidd
Payton
Clyde
Cp3
Isiah
Steve Nash
Big O

People forget about guys like Denis Johnson
Tiny archibald

Method28
05-13-2014, 01:23 AM
I put all those guys ahead of tony Parker. Underrated but not top 5 at all

Magic
Stockton
Kidd
Payton
Clyde
Cp3
Isiah
Steve Nash
Big O

People forget about guys like Denis Johnson
Tiny archibald

I agree. I wouldn't put him above any of those guys. Maybe Nash and Cp3 are debatable but IMO I don't see him as better than those guys you listed. No disrespect to him. Great player.

FlashBolt
05-13-2014, 01:24 AM
I mean are you guys including rings as well because I'm pretty sure none of you would have ranked LeBron top 10 if he had no rings. Rings and everything considered, Tony Parker is a top 5 PG.

Avenged
05-13-2014, 01:30 AM
Off the top of my head he's top 10 probably for sure. I'd love to see him get another ring with a FMVP. It would make the rankings interesting.

Bostonjorge
05-13-2014, 02:08 AM
Parker is right at 5

Magic
Isaiah
Kidd
Payton
Parker

U can make a case for Parker at 3 ahead of Payton and Kidd but this case will be better when his career is over.

Also the big O played everything and I see him as a SF like James and pippen. Point forward.

clehmun
05-13-2014, 04:56 AM
Parker is right at 5

Magic
Isaiah
Kidd
Payton
Parker

U can make a case for Parker at 3 ahead of Payton and Kidd but this case will be better when his career is over.

Also the big O played everything and I see him as a SF like James and pippen. Point forward.


Even though he has never won a ring, you have to have John Stockton on any top PG list.

MickeyMgl
05-13-2014, 05:34 AM
I put all those guys ahead of tony Parker. Underrated but not top 5 at all

Magic
Stockton
Kidd
Payton
Clyde
Cp3
Isiah
Steve Nash
Big O

People forget about guys like Denis Johnson
Tiny archibald

Also worthy of discussion:
Kevin Johnson
Deron Williams
Bob Cousy
Lenny Wilkens

Jerry West is just a question of whether one considers him a PG. Guards weren't divided into 1's and 2's then. He was among league leaders in assists for several seasons, leading the league once. He also did most of the ballhandling. If he's a PG, he might be top five.

I'm thinking Parker is safely top 20, which is not an insult. Might be close to top ten. Nowhere near top five.

b@llhog24
05-13-2014, 06:14 AM
Parker's not better than Chauncey Billups either.

beyourself
05-13-2014, 08:18 AM
For career rankings he murders every PG in the league currently.

cmellofan15
05-13-2014, 12:09 PM
well technically Steve Nash is still in the league. and I don't think he murders CP3 either.

Ebbs
05-13-2014, 02:04 PM
Parker's not better than Chauncey Billups either.

Disagree. Parker is better than Billups with relative ease

KnicksorBust
05-13-2014, 02:29 PM
I'd have him top 5 tbh. Consistent and always plays well.

He's at least 1 tier probably 2 tiers below the real top PGs.

Tier 1:
Magic
Oscar
Stockton

Tier 2:
Isiah
Frazier
Cousy
Kidd
Nash
Paul
Payton

Those 10 are clearly above the rest. Then you can debate guys like Tiny-Parker-Billups-KJ-Jackson-Hardaway-etc.


Parker's not better than Chauncey Billups either.

Too perfect.


Disagree. Parker is better than Billups with relative ease

You sure you want to have that debate already? :laugh:

JasonJohnHorn
05-13-2014, 02:38 PM
You put Magic, Oscar and Stockton in whatever order you like, so long as they are all top-3 and I have no issue with that.

Isiah Thomas, CP3, Nash and Kidd right after those guys (I'm not a stickler about the order).

Frazier and Payton come after those guys.

Then you got a few choices: Kevin Johnson, Dennis Johnson, Tim Hardway, Nate Archibald, Mark Jackson, and you have to mention Bob Cousy.

Parker would likely be in my top 15, but not my top ten. If he was, he'd be no higher than 10.

I look at it this way. Would the Spurs be better if they had any of the following PGs in their prime instead of Parker: Magic, Stockton, Oscar, Thomas, CP3, Kidd, Nash, Payton, Frazier, KJ, DJ, Hardaway. I think the answer is yes for each of those guys.

Parker is AWESOME. Cutting to the basket, there are few better in the league, but his assist-to-turnover ration is only a little higher than 2-1.

I'd him over most point guards in the league, but at the same time, there is a reason why he misses the ASG some seasons.

tredigs
05-13-2014, 02:56 PM
Well, he's in his prime and I currently have him as the 4th best player at the PG position currently after CP3/Curry/Westbrook. He fits their system perfectly and is an amazing player in his own right, but much of the reason why he is being touted in here can be equally weighted to Duncan+Ginobili/Pop, and the Spurs rock of an organization as a whole.

FlashBolt
05-13-2014, 04:21 PM
Parker not better than Chauncey? Are we talking about Tony Parker or Peter Parker?

TheLebronFamily
05-13-2014, 04:29 PM
Not close to top 5.

tredigs
05-13-2014, 04:44 PM
Parker not better than Chauncey? Are we talking about Tony Parker or Peter Parker?

Not sure in what world you would think TP has a clear case over Billups. Chauncey was an incredible leader (not sure there's a more well respected 'leader' in the NBA, even as recently as last year when he was injured and bench fodder), a great defender and an elite 3pt+FT shooter whose overall scoring efficiency crushes TP (on similar volume with far less talented offensive players surrounding him to take the pressure off). He also had a better assist:TO ratio, was a better rebounder and proved he could be the leader of a championship team.

This adds up to TP >>> Billups to you? Living in the moment much?

slashsnake
05-13-2014, 04:54 PM
Not sure in what world you would think TP has a clear case over Billups. Chauncey was an incredible leader (not sure there's a more well respected 'leader' in the NBA, even as recently as last year when he was injured and bench fodder), a great defender and an elite 3pt+FT shooter whose overall scoring efficiency crushes TP (on similar volume with far less talented offensive players surrounding him to take the pressure off). He also had a better assist:TO ratio, was a better rebounder and proved he could be the leader of a championship team.

This adds up to TP >>> Billups to you? Living in the moment much?

Watched a lot of both... and it isn't even close in my eyes. I think there's a reason an elite team has held on to Parker all these years even paying him more than Duncan, while Billups was sent packing by coach after coach. I loved Billups in Denver, but no, I'd have given him up in a heartbeat for Parker.

Ebbs
05-13-2014, 05:01 PM
Using per game statistics, rates, etc in regards to Tony Parker is like slapping him in the face.

He's been "controlled" his entire career. He hasn't got to run a crazy paced, wild type offense in which he was the clear #1 offense.

Parker could have far prettier numbers than he does if he and Westbrook swapped spots.

tredigs
05-13-2014, 05:13 PM
Watched a lot of both... and it isn't even close in my eyes. I think there's a reason an elite team has held on to Parker all these years even paying him more than Duncan, while Billups was sent packing by coach after coach. I loved Billups in Denver, but no, I'd have given him up in a heartbeat for Parker.
I've watched hundreds of games of both myself. Seen their entire careers.

Billups Co-led your team to the WC Finals with ease - the farthest Denver has been in 30 years - not sure you get there with TP; your floor spacing would have been **** and defense falls out of the top 10.

Tony does things that Billups can't, but Billups does more that Tony can't. I'm fine with calling TP a better player, but it's highly debatable.


Using per game statistics, rates, etc in regards to Tony Parker is like slapping him in the face.

He's been "controlled" his entire career. He hasn't got to run a crazy paced, wild type offense in which he was the clear #1 offense.

Parker could have far prettier numbers than he does if he and Westbrook swapped spots.

I don't think so. He'd score more but be less efficient, and without the ability of a consistent 3pt shot (he only takes a wide open look once a game), that is a major crux on an offense that does not have an elite low post thread and a co-playmaker + elite 3pt shooting. Their offense is PERFECT for him to maximize his efficiency. He could easily score 22 a game, but he's not an especially elite playmaker when on his own. Good (and knows his players + their scheme to an incredible level obviously), but not elite.

Longhornfan1234
05-13-2014, 05:15 PM
Lol at idiots who left Isiah out of their top 3. Isiah always destroyed Stockton when they played. He won two championships as the man. Let's be real...if Isiah never hurt his ankle, he would have beaten '87 Lakers.

valade16
05-13-2014, 05:15 PM
Am I the only one who thinks it's actually insane to put him at Top 5?

Magic, Stockton and Oscar are all clearly the best.

But then you have a guy like Gary Payton that put up similar offensive stats and was miles better defensively. To me it's not even close Payton is better. If you put Parker on those Sonics teams they don't come any closer to winning a title than they did (and arguably wouldn't have even made the finals or won a game in them) and if you had Payton on the Spurs they win just as many titles and likely come out with another 1 or 2.

Nash, Kidd, Isiah, and Frazier are either just plain superior (in Nash's case) or far better 2 way players (in the case of everyone else).

After that you get a guy like Kevin Johnson. Kevin Johnson's statistics are virtually identical (he was a better passer actually) to Parkers. So why is Parker better? Rings and Finals MVP. Those accolades certainly place Tony Parker in the greater category but not necessarily the better category.

To me:

Greatest = combination of ability and achievement

Best = singularly ability

There should be a distinction in this case as Parker clearly passes the career greatness test, but does he pass the best test? Not so sure.

Vinylman
05-13-2014, 05:22 PM
regular season low teens

playoffs top 5

naps
05-13-2014, 05:35 PM
Top 5? WOW

naps
05-13-2014, 05:37 PM
Give me Magic, Big O, Stockton, Isiah, Payton, Kidd, Nash any day of the week over him and I am sure there are more.

Also, I feel like Isiah and Payton have always been underrated on these forums when it comes to PG discussions. May be because most people didn't watch them play live in the primes or may be they don't get the media love as much as they should...Not sure.

Hotone1401
05-13-2014, 06:02 PM
You put Magic, Oscar and Stockton in whatever order you like, so long as they are all top-3 and I have no issue with that.

Isiah Thomas, CP3, Nash and Kidd right after those guys (I'm not a stickler about the order).

Frazier and Payton come after those guys.

Then you got a few choices: Kevin Johnson, Dennis Johnson, Tim Hardway, Nate Archibald, Mark Jackson, and you have to mention Bob Cousy.

Parker would likely be in my top 15, but not my top ten. If he was, he'd be no higher than 10.

I look at it this way. Would the Spurs be better if they had any of the following PGs in their prime instead of Parker: Magic, Stockton, Oscar, Thomas, CP3, Kidd, Nash, Payton, Frazier, KJ, DJ, Hardaway. I think the answer is yes for each of those guys.

Parker is AWESOME. Cutting to the basket, there are few better in the league, but his assist-to-turnover ration is only a little higher than 2-1.

I'd him over most point guards in the league, but at the same time, there is a reason why he misses the ASG some seasons.

I have Tony Parker ahead of Kevin Johnson, Dennis Johnson, Tim Hardway, Nate Archibald, Mark Jackson, and Bob Cousy. Nice list though.

Avenged
05-13-2014, 06:11 PM
Parker not better than Chauncey? Are we talking about Tony Parker or Peter Parker?

:laugh2:

JasonJohnHorn
05-13-2014, 07:52 PM
I have Tony Parker ahead of Kevin Johnson, Dennis Johnson, Tim Hardway, Nate Archibald, Mark Jackson, and Bob Cousy. Nice list though.

Cousy for SURE. Cousy wouldn't even make an NBA roster today. I'd take Parker over ARchibald as well, he had a high peak, but didn't maintain it.

I LOVED KJ back in the day... I think he is grossly underrated. He posted a 20/10 season which only 2 PGs have done since. I'd be happy with either KJ or Parker on my team, but I'd take Parker first.

As for Hardaway... he was pretty impressive... I'm not sure who I'd take over him or Parker, but I wouldn't blame anybody to taking Parker first.

As to Dennis Johnson. I didn't get to watch him play in is prime, but the way people talked about him.... I think I'd take Parker over him, but I'm sure there are some oldschoolers who think that is blasphemous.

mightybosstone
05-14-2014, 10:05 AM
Off the top of my head, my point guard list would look something like:

1. Magic Johnson
2. Oscar Robertson
3. John Stockton
4. Chris Paul
5. Walt Frazier
6. Isiah Thomas
7. Gary Payton
8. Steve Nash
9. Jason Kidd
10. Bob Cousy
11. Chauncey Billups
12. Kevin Johnson
13. Tony Parker

I love Parker's game, but I just don't see any way he could feasibly ever crack the top 10. He'll never been a better floor general or post sexier stats than KJ, he'll never defend like Chauncey and he's never going to win as many titles or be as innovative a player as Cousy was. As for the guys in the top 9, they're just all superior players to Parker, and I'm not sure how you can argue otherwise.

Tony will make the Hall of Fame one day. He'll have multiple rings, a Finals MVP, multiple All-NBA teams and All-Star games and will have had a phenomenal career. But there is literally zero chance I ever mention Tony Parker's name in a Top 5 PGs of all-time discussion.

MonroeFAN
05-14-2014, 10:10 AM
I struggle to put him in the top 5, but I'd welcome top 15.

He's a great player.

beyourself
05-14-2014, 11:44 AM
Throw the results out from last nights OKC, Clippers game. Throw it all away and look at the thought process and decisions. There is no way Parker plays as mentally immature as Westbrook played and as mentally weak as Paul. Parker would never take those ill advised air ball threes. He would never take that ridiculous foul at the end. Be conned into those turnovers.

Mental discipline is very important to me as PG. Guys, we have to remember, they have the ball in their hands. If they want to go rogue the bottom line is they can.

mightybosstone
05-14-2014, 11:52 AM
Throw the results out from last nights OKC, Clippers game. Throw it all away and look at the thought process and decisions. There is no way Parker plays as mentally immature as Westbrook played and as mentally weak as Paul. Parker would never take those ill advised air ball threes. He would never take that ridiculous foul at the end. Be conned into those turnovers.

Mental discipline is very important to me as PG. Guys, we have to remember, they have the ball in their hands. If they want to go rogue the bottom line is they can.

Every player makes a bad decision or two, but the bottom line is that Parker is not remotely the basketball player that Chris Paul is. Paul is the better defender, passer, floor general, perimeter shooter and a more efficient scorer. There are so very few things Parker does better than Paul and Parker shouldn't get the benefit of the doubt because of his rings when he has played his entire career with a top 10 all-time player in Duncan and a top 5 all-time coach in Poppovich.

Also, I love how you start with "throw out the results of last night's game" and then proceeded to base your entire argument on the results of last night's game. Sample size, bro. I could find a single game in Parker's career and say "Paul would never have made a dumb play like that." It's not that hard, and it's not a good argument.

The_Jamal
05-14-2014, 12:28 PM
I think that 12-15 range is about right for TP. A lot of his allure is his playoff success, rather than his actual numbers. So it sort of depends on what you value more

mngopher35
05-14-2014, 12:48 PM
I agree with most in here that he is not top 5, has an argument for top 10. I think 9-13 on the PG list sounds about right.

MickeyMgl
05-15-2014, 05:09 AM
Parker not better than Chauncey? Are we talking about Tony Parker or Peter Parker?

Peter Parker is better than all of them. Too fast for them, good handles, and always a certain "sense" that allows him to see the play before it develops.

Munkeysuit
05-15-2014, 06:28 AM
Tony Parker has to be top 10 all time...I know his career is far from over but 3 rings, a bevy of accolades and rising statistical marks every year, not to mention a few MVP mentions over the past few years, definitely puts him in the top 10 All Time right now!

sammyvine
05-15-2014, 07:45 AM
Off the top of my head, my point guard list would look something like:

1. Magic Johnson
2. Oscar Robertson
3. John Stockton
4. Chris Paul
5. Walt Frazier
6. Isiah Thomas
7. Gary Payton
8. Steve Nash
9. Jason Kidd
10. Bob Cousy
11. Chauncey Billups
12. Kevin Johnson
13. Tony Parker

I love Parker's game, but I just don't see any way he could feasibly ever crack the top 10. He'll never been a better floor general or post sexier stats than KJ, he'll never defend like Chauncey and he's never going to win as many titles or be as innovative a player as Cousy was. As for the guys in the top 9, they're just all superior players to Parker, and I'm not sure how you can argue otherwise.

Tony will make the Hall of Fame one day. He'll have multiple rings, a Finals MVP, multiple All-NBA teams and All-Star games and will have had a phenomenal career. But there is literally zero chance I ever mention Tony Parker's name in a Top 5 PGs of all-time discussion.

Im sure tony parker is devestated

slashsnake
05-15-2014, 11:47 AM
Sample size, bro. I could find a single game in Parker's career and say "Paul would never have made a dumb play like that." It's not that hard, and it's not a good argument.

04 Lakers vs. Spurs, game 6, do or die for San Antonio. Parker jacks up threes and everything else all night and can't hit anything, turns over the ball again and again.

Tony's last pile of posessions. Miss, miss, turnover, miss, miss, miss, assist assist, turnover, miss, miss, foul, foul, got fouled and made 1 of 2 free throws, turnover, miss, miss, foul.

That is a pretty bad half there. 9 straight missed shots, 3 turnovers, 3 fouls, 2 assists and 1 point with the playoffs on the line to turn a close game into a blowout loss. He finished 4-18 (0-5 from three), 9 points, 6 turnovers, 3 assists, 4 fouls, 1 steal, 1 board, 1-2 free throws with the season on the line.

Or game 6 against Memphis a few years ago. Another do or die game, 1 minute 30 remaining and Parker goes back to back turnovers. a 2 posession game was put away there.

Everyone has bad plays and choke moments. Jordan choked on 5 of his 7 last game winning shots in the playoffs during the Bulls 2nd threepeat. It happens.

Chronz
05-15-2014, 11:53 AM
It's not that hard, and it's not a good argument.
Remember when Tony Parker was benched for the likes of Speedy Claxton? That was a pretty bad series

bagwell368
05-15-2014, 12:21 PM
I put all those guys ahead of tony Parker. Underrated but not top 5 at all

Magic
Stockton
Kidd
Payton
Clyde
Cp3
Isiah
Steve Nash
Big O

People forget about guys like Denis Johnson
Tiny archibald

I'm very familiar with the Boston and non Boston portions of their careers. I don't see how overall anyone can compare either with Parker.

Parker has to be somewhere between #7 and #11 but I have no time to think about it...

oops wait. Parker is better than KJ and Billups. Cousy is in the argument due to his titles and tilting the table to make up for the era, but I wouldn't take him over Parker either.

Bruno
05-15-2014, 12:25 PM
trail end of the top ten, no lower than 12th, 13th maybe?

Raps08-09 Champ
05-15-2014, 01:35 PM
1. Magic Johnson
2. Oscar Robertson
3. John Stockton
4. Isiah Thomas
5. Walt Frazier
6. Steve Nash
7. Jason Kidd
8. Chris Paul
9. Gary Payton
10. Tony Parker
11. Chauncey Billups

I'd possibly move Paul up to like 3/4 and slide everyone else down.

KnicksorBust
05-15-2014, 02:39 PM
1. Magic Johnson
2. Oscar Robertson
3. John Stockton
4. Isiah Thomas
5. Walt Frazier
6. Steve Nash
7. Jason Kidd
8. Chris Paul
9. Gary Payton
10. Tony Parker
11. Chauncey Billups

I'd possibly move Paul up to like 3/4 and slide everyone else down.

I get that people hate 50s and 60s players but to leave Bob Cousy off your top 10 list entirely blatantly ignores 10 straight All-NBA 1st teams, a league MVP, and being a key player on 6 NBA Championship teams.

ricky recon
05-15-2014, 02:45 PM
Oustide of Magic, Stockton, and Oscar Robertson, there's an argument somewhere to be made. I'd probably have him top 10, in the 6-10 range.

ricky recon
05-15-2014, 02:52 PM
I get that people hate 50s and 60s players but to leave Bob Cousy off your top 10 list entirely blatantly ignores 10 straight All-NBA 1st teams, a league MVP, and being a key player on 6 NBA Championship teams.

Cousy is definitely up there, but the fact that he played on average with 66% less competition (~10 teams compared to ~30), has to be accounted for.

I'd have to look at the numbers, league averages, and overall impact on the team, but you have to remember Cousy didn't accomplish jack in a 10 team league (as a team) until Bill Russell came a long, and when Cousy left they continued to win championships.

He's one of the first all time great point guards, but after it's all said and done, TP might take the cake.

Raps08-09 Champ
05-15-2014, 03:03 PM
I get that people hate 50s and 60s players but to leave Bob Cousy off your top 10 list entirely blatantly ignores 10 straight All-NBA 1st teams, a league MVP, and being a key player on 6 NBA Championship teams.

Yea, not a fan of 50/60. By default though, he's like 11-14 for me.

Bostonjorge
05-15-2014, 03:15 PM
regular season low teens

playoffs top 5

This is spot on. Spurs rest players every year. Every year the starters play the least amount of min in the league.

mightybosstone
05-15-2014, 03:28 PM
Im sure tony parker is devestated
As he should be. MBT's top 5 lists are pretty legendary among the basketball community.

slashsnake
05-15-2014, 03:57 PM
This is spot on. Spurs rest players every year. Every year the starters play the least amount of min in the league.

Well top 5 as a playoff PG might be tough too. Cousy easy. Led the post-season in scoring 3 times, assists 8 times, 6 rings...

Magic, 20-12-8 in the post season 5 rings and his first was crazy...

Kidd hit a lot of clutch shots and made a lot of plays in the post-season, got some meh teams to the finals, great all around guard, great defender, averaged a triple double one post-season, has a ring...

Isiah led the only playoff team that could stop Jordans Bulls, 20-9 average in the playoffs, 2 rings...

Walt Frazier 21-6-7 in the playoffs, 2 rings, insane defender...

Oscar was a playoff monster though he only had one ring.

Stockton is still impressive as a player, I think he led the playoffs in assists per game 10 seasons.

And in the playoffs it isn't like he's becoming this huge player with more minutes. His FG% 3pt% free throw%, assists, and rebounds all drop.

It's tough, he helped his team win 3 championships and played a big role in all three. But was he actually playing as a top 5 all time PG in the playoffs?

I guess I'd agree with that though. Playoffs.. I got Magic, Isiah, Frazier, Cousy, and Parker. But I wouldn't argue if people felt he was only top 10 either.

Guys like Chauncey and Norm Nixon really move up here too for me.

zn23
05-16-2014, 03:01 AM
Off the top of my head he's top 10 probably for sure. I'd love to see him get another ring with a FMVP. It would make the rankings interesting.

not really... He's played on a great team, with a great coach and system. Something a lot of players are not fortunate enough to experience.

He's a good point guard, will likely make the HOF at some point, but he's not top 10.

When you look at the numbers. He's pretty good in the regular season, and he plays about the same during the post season.

Good, not great and definitely not top 10.

MickeyMgl
05-16-2014, 03:14 AM
Cousy is definitely up there, but the fact that he played on average with 66% less competition (~10 teams compared to ~30), has to be accounted for.

The population of the United States in 1950, the year before Cousy started his career, was about 151 million. The population of the United States today is about 317 million.
To that 317 million, add the populations of the countries who now play basketball and produce NBA talent who did not before.
There you have NBA expansion accounted for.

Compared to the overall talent pool, the percentage of players in the NBA is not that different now from then. Besides, playing the same talented players more often creates rivalries and more heated competition.

Hellcrooner
05-16-2014, 06:39 AM
top 15 at best top 25 at worst.

b@llhog24
05-16-2014, 08:44 AM
Disagree. Parker is better than Billups with relative ease

Lol really? Maybe career accolades wise but I'd have to check that out later. But there's no doubt in my mind that a prime Billups was a more potent offensive force than Tony and an ace defender at the guard position.

THE MTL
05-16-2014, 11:09 AM
Tony Parker just isnt as good as the alltime PGs. Magic, Stockton, Thomas, Nash, and thats just off the top of the head

slashsnake
05-17-2014, 12:00 PM
The population of the United States in 1950, the year before Cousy started his career, was about 151 million. The population of the United States today is about 317 million.
To that 317 million, add the populations of the countries who now play basketball and produce NBA talent who did not before.
There you have NBA expansion accounted for.

Compared to the overall talent pool, the percentage of players in the NBA is not that different now from then. Besides, playing the same talented players more often creates rivalries and more heated competition.


I think you made the point, it is a lot harder to stand out as the best today. Not only are you over doubling the people in America, but basketball is an international sport now. Cousy had to be the best out of 151 million americans for a sport that wasn't widely watched or played. CP3 for example has to be the best among what? Billions in the countries that really embrace basketball?

I've got Cousy in my top 10. I think part of it is what plagues Dr J. Jordan came right after him and blew his talents out of the water. Same with Karl Malone... Tim Duncan makes you forget how good he was.

Oscar followed Cousy and people saw a much better point guard immediately.

Sadds The Gr8
05-17-2014, 12:46 PM
Lol ppl have Parker in the top 5 all time pg's? Are u on crack?

alexander_37
05-17-2014, 02:41 PM
Magic
Robertson
Payton
West
Stockton
Thomas
Kidd
Nash

Maybe
Frazier
CP3

zn23
05-17-2014, 04:22 PM
Lol ppl have Parker in the top 5 all time pg's? Are u on crack?

3 ringz

flea
05-17-2014, 04:33 PM
I think Chauncey is the superior PG to Parker. I like Parker a lot, and he's close to top 10, but it's almost a feat just to do that because of his skillset. For half his career he could not shoot at all, was a defender that needed to be hidden, and was not the distributor that he should have been.

His quickness and creativity on the drive were literally his only assets, and he was a pretty good player with just that. Once he got his midrange game he became an elite offensive guard. He's a better distributor now than he was, but he's still relatively limited in this area compared to the HOFers.

slashsnake
05-17-2014, 05:52 PM
3 ringz

So he's now behind Kerr and Fisher?

bagwell368
05-17-2014, 08:46 PM
I get that people hate 50s and 60s players but to leave Bob Cousy off your top 10 list entirely blatantly ignores 10 straight All-NBA 1st teams, a league MVP, and being a key player on 6 NBA Championship teams.

He's a tough case, but he played in a league with 7 or 8 other teams - so even adjusting for the era, he might have won a 1/3 to 1/4 of those 1st team all nba awards.

LordJohn
05-17-2014, 09:15 PM
Parker is categorically not a top five PG. He's very good, but even if we exclude 50's/60's guys (which seems to be controversial on this thread) I can still think of close to ten guys better

Magic
Stockton
Isaiah
Kidd
Nash
Paul
Payton
Clyde Frazier
Tiny Archibald

Reyes6
05-17-2014, 09:50 PM
Hard to rank a guy Top 5 all-time when he is barely Top 3 within active players today.

tredigs
05-17-2014, 09:55 PM
Hard to rank a guy Top 5 all-time when he is barely Top 3 within active players today.

That's kind of what I'm saying. CP3/Curry/Westbrook all have a case as better players at point. His career accolades are probably > his ability at any point. Still a boss, though.

SanAntonioSpurs23
05-18-2014, 12:21 AM
I would say top 10.

I personally have a hard time putting CP3 and to a lesser extent Nash ahead of him though. CP3 has choked pretty hard in multiple playoff series. If we are talking about regular season than CP3> Parker any day of the week, but CP3 at least needs to have a deep playoff run before I can rank him ahead of a finals mvp.

Nash is definitely debatable. I loved the guys game, but his defense was always atrocious. Not that Parker is some defensive specialist, but he has improved from his earlier years.

KnicksorBust
05-18-2014, 06:11 PM
Cousy is definitely up there, but the fact that he played on average with 66% less competition (~10 teams compared to ~30), has to be accounted for.

I'd have to look at the numbers, league averages, and overall impact on the team, but you have to remember Cousy didn't accomplish jack in a 10 team league (as a team) until Bill Russell came a long, and when Cousy left they continued to win championships.

He's one of the first all time great point guards, but after it's all said and done, TP might take the cake.

And by not accomplishing jack you mean his 5 all-nba 1st teams and 4 assist titles? He was also in the top 10 in PER 5 straight seasons before Bill Russell joined the Celtics. How can you say that's accomplishing jack?


Yea, not a fan of 50/60. By default though, he's like 11-14 for me.

Do you downgrade Russell, West, Baylor as well or just Cousy?


He's a tough case, but he played in a league with 7 or 8 other teams - so even adjusting for the era, he might have won a 1/3 to 1/4 of those 1st team all nba awards.

How much do you downgrade Wilt's legacy by playing in a league with less teams?


I would say top 10.

I personally have a hard time putting CP3 and to a lesser extent Nash ahead of him though. CP3 has choked pretty hard in multiple playoff series. If we are talking about regular season than CP3> Parker any day of the week, but CP3 at least needs to have a deep playoff run before I can rank him ahead of a finals mvp.

Nash is definitely debatable. I loved the guys game, but his defense was always atrocious. Not that Parker is some defensive specialist, but he has improved from his earlier years.

CP3 has been in the playoffs 6 times and led the postseason in PER in 3 of them. He's had more amazing postseasons than terrible. Each team he has been going to post-seasons undermanned. This was the first year he had the horses.

slashsnake
05-18-2014, 07:20 PM
And by not accomplishing jack you mean his 5 all-nba 1st teams and 4 assist titles? He was also in the top 10 in PER 5 straight seasons before Bill Russell joined the Celtics. How can you say that's accomplishing jack?

Do you downgrade Russell, West, Baylor as well or just Cousy?

How much do you downgrade Wilt's legacy by playing in a league with less teams?



I think so. Much like how Pippen doesn't get in the greatest SF of all time talk a lot because he played with such a great player beside him.

You look at Cousy's teammates and he has what? 11 or so other basketball hall of famers on that roster.

Yes, he was top 10 in PER for 5 straight years from 51-55. Larry Foust was top 8 in PER in that same time frame.

What was the opposition like when there was only 20 other listed PG's in the NBA and only 2 others who got anything close to the minutes he did in the league to be 1st team all NBA?

And what is top 10? Then you had 66 players who played 1000 minutes in the NBA in a year. Now you have 260.

He is an all time great. I just have a tough time putting him in my all time elite category without really knowing the competition or difficulty. Was he dominating a league where his opponents were working 2nd jobs? Was his team really that stacked? Were his opponents really any good?

The numbers are there sure. I don't mind someone putting him in there for that. But as I can't answer those questions, I am not sure I would be able to put him in MY top 3.

ManningToTyree
05-18-2014, 07:54 PM
Off the top of my head he isn't top 10.

Still a HoFer

MickeyMgl
05-19-2014, 03:30 AM
Cousy had to be the best out of 151 million americans for a sport that wasn't widely watched or played. CP3 for example has to be the best among what? Billions in the countries that really embrace basketball?

Expansion means that, roughly estimated, the same tiny % of players make the NBA as before. So CP3 is playing against what we might call crappy NBA players about as often as Cousy was.

todu82
05-19-2014, 10:23 AM
Somewhere in the top 10.

slashsnake
05-19-2014, 10:26 AM
Expansion means that, roughly estimated, the same tiny % of players make the NBA as before. So CP3 is playing against what we might call crappy NBA players about as often as Cousy was.

Bigger pool equals more competition.

If there are just two people in the world, you and me, and only you play basketball, you are the best player in the world where 50% of the people compete. Not really an accomplishment.

If there are 10 people now, and 5 play basketball, the same percentage compete, and you are the best, it is a bit more of an accomplishment in my eyes.

The same percentage may be bad, but also good. If you are looking at a league with 5 times the number of players getting regular minutes, sure there's 5 times the number of crappy guys, but there's also 5 times the competition for being the best.

You also have to view basketballs popularity. Its the most popular sport now to play for teens all over the world. That wasn't true 60 years ago.

If there's 10 people in the world and you are the only one playing basketball, being the best... ehh. If 7 of the 10 play it, nice job.

It isn't just more people in the pool from a pure population standpoint, but a higher % of people playing as well.

Again, I think Cousy was an all time great, just I didn't see enough of his competition to say that he was head and shoulders above some really great basketball players who took their craft seriously. Right or wrong, that kind of puts an asterisk there for me, I know what kind of competition my top 3-4 PG's played, I've got their whole story. That happens for a lot of players from that era..

JJ_JKidd
05-20-2014, 04:59 AM
ask this question who put CP3 above him