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View Full Version : Lebron destroying the field in WinShares48 and PER in the Playoffs thus far



IKnowHoops
05-09-2014, 04:07 AM
Player Efficiency Rating
1. LeBron James-MIA 29.8
2. Dwight Howard-HOU 27.1
3. Taj Gibson-CHI 26.2
4. LaMarcus Aldridge-POR 24.7
5. Russell Westbrook-OKC 23.8
6. Chris Paul-LAC 23.8
7. Tim Duncan-SAS 21.7
8. Kevin Durant-OKC 21.6
9. Paul George-IND 21.1
10. Blake Griffin-LAC 20.9

Win Shares Per 48 Minutes
1. LeBron James-MIA .307
2. Tiago Splitter-SAS .232
3. Taj Gibson-CHI .220
4. Tim Duncan-SAS .209
5. Chris Paul-LAC .208
6. Chris Bosh-MIA .208
7. Trevor Ariza-WAS .205
8. Boris Diaw-SAS .193
9. Paul George-IND .190
10. Serge Ibaka-OKC .189

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-09-2014, 04:39 AM
Not very hard when you have the weakest competition possible. Let's be real here.

IKnowHoops
05-09-2014, 04:44 AM
Not very hard when you have the weakest competition possible. Let's be real here.

Wade played the same teams and isn't in the top 10 of either so...

IKnowHoops
05-09-2014, 06:34 AM
Player Efficiency Rating
1. LeBron James-MIA 29.8
2. Dwight Howard-HOU 27.1
3. Taj Gibson-CHI 26.2
4. LaMarcus Aldridge-POR 24.7
5. Russell Westbrook-OKC 23.8
6. Chris Paul-LAC 23.8
7. Tim Duncan-SAS 21.7
8. Kevin Durant-OKC 21.6
9. Paul George-IND 21.1
10. Blake Griffin-LAC 20.9

Win Shares Per 48 Minutes
1. LeBron James-MIA .307
2. Tiago Splitter-SAS .232
3. Taj Gibson-CHI .220
4. Tim Duncan-SAS .209
5. Chris Paul-LAC .208
6. Chris Bosh-MIA .208
7. Trevor Ariza-WAS .205
8. Boris Diaw-SAS .193
9. Paul George-IND .190
10. Serge Ibaka-OKC .189

I also think that these two lists show us that PER is better than WS at indicating who is actually playing the best brand of basketball.

flea
05-09-2014, 06:41 AM
I also think that these two lists show us that PER is better than WS at indicating who is actually playing the best brand of basketball.

Both are astoundingly bad at indicating "the best brand of basketball." WS are nice with a decent sample size and with a bunch of caveats about the team and system. PER is about as good as just adding points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals together - you might as well just look at their box scores.

IKnowHoops
05-09-2014, 07:05 AM
Both are astoundingly bad at indicating "the best brand of basketball." WS are nice with a decent sample size and with a bunch of caveats about the team and system. PER is about as good as just adding points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals together - you might as well just look at their box scores.

So tell me this, what do you disagree with on PER rankings thus far in the playoffs. And Box scores basically tell you who is playing best so I don't know that your reasoning makes any sense at all. And in this instance, how is WS better than PER in telling us what is actually going on. Just use this for an example, because in this instance, PER is pretty on point and you cannot disagree with that.

flea
05-09-2014, 07:26 AM
So tell me this, what do you disagree with on PER rankings thus far in the playoffs. And Box scores basically tell you who is playing best so I don't know that your reasoning makes any sense at all. And in this instance, how is WS better than PER in telling us what is actually going on. Just use this for an example, because in this instance, PER is pretty on point and you cannot disagree with that.

To be honest I didn't even bother looking at the lists. The sample size is so small that who cares? We can talk about their performances on an individual level. Plus, being able to face the Rockets defense (Aldridge) is a lot different than facing the Griz defense in round 1.

But if you think Gibson, Howard, or Westbrook have been top 5 players so far in the playoffs then you're nuts.

IKnowHoops
05-09-2014, 07:34 AM
To be honest I didn't even bother looking at the lists. The sample size is so small that who cares? We can talk about their performances on an individual level. Plus, being able to face the Rockets defense (Aldridge) is a lot different than facing the Griz defense in round 1.

But if you think Gibson, Howard, or Westbrook have been top 5 players so far in the playoffs then you're nuts.

So you did look at the list. Gibson no, but Howard and Westbrook definitely have an argument for being in the top 5 with Aldridge. Westbrook has 3 triple doubles in the playoffs...the field has zero. So to say he doesn't belong in the conversation would probably make you nuts.

IKnowHoops
05-09-2014, 07:40 AM
To be honest I didn't even bother looking at the lists. The sample size is so small that who cares? We can talk about their performances on an individual level. Plus, being able to face the Rockets defense (Aldridge) is a lot different than facing the Griz defense in round 1.

But if you think Gibson, Howard, or Westbrook have been top 5 players so far in the playoffs then you're nuts.

And to my point that PER is a better indicator than WS, if you think that tiago Splitter, Trevor Ariza, Boris Diaw and Serge Ibaka, have been better than Durant, Westbrook, Howard and Aldridge, then you are definitely nuts.

flea
05-09-2014, 07:50 AM
Using one crappy stat for a small sample size over another crappy stat for the same sample size does not mean anything to me. I read the list after you asked me about it. Westbrook has had great games and duds, and his defense has been weak. He has absolutely not been a top 5 player so far, and doesn't even have an argument.

mjm07
05-09-2014, 08:28 AM
I'm very jealous. Let's be real here.

Fixed it.

DemarDerozan
05-09-2014, 09:28 AM
Not very hard when you have the weakest competition possible. Let's be real here.

The East teams (either by design or default) have become the equivalent of journeymen boxers used to keep the Heat fresh and groomed.

Which is ****ed up because the more deserving a West teams for the past two seasons have had to fight tooth and nail before dealing with the well rested cHeat.

DemarDerozan
05-09-2014, 09:33 AM
It's like saying to Manny Paquiao (as OKC or the Spurs) "okay bro you can fight Floyd but first you have to fight Delahoya, Marquez and Cotton back to back to back. Oh yeah and they're all in there primes."

Meanwhile Mayweather (as the Heat) is beating up the poor ******** white kid from "Million Dollar Baby" to stay loose.

flea
05-09-2014, 09:36 AM
It's like saying to Manny Paquiao (as OKC or the Spurs) "okay bro you can fight Floyd but first you have to fight Delahoya, Marquez and Cotton back to back to back. Oh yeah and they're all in there primes."

Meanwhile Mayweather (as the Heat) is beating up the poor ******** white kid from "Million Dollar Baby" to stay loose.

While true I'm not sure what it changes. MJ dealt with a pretty crappy EC as well after they blew up the Pistons. Ewing was born to lose and Shaq's Magic was no match for the veteran team. It's really hard to discredit the Jazz as a dynasty, IMO, because of this fact.

JC_
05-09-2014, 09:52 AM
The East teams (either by design or default) have become the equivalent of journeymen boxers used to keep the Heat fresh and groomed.

Which is ****ed up because the more deserving a West teams for the past two seasons have had to fight tooth and nail before dealing with the well rested cHeat.

Maybe this season but in past seasons they had to go through the Pacer's, Bulls and Celtics when most were at the top of their game. They've had plenty of tough series matchups.

ManRam
05-09-2014, 09:58 AM
He's certainly had an easier go than CP3 or KD, the only two you can realistically expect to hang with him over the course of a full playoffs (no disrespect to PG, LMA, etc.). But, I mean, the guy holds the record for best WS/48 in a single playoffs ever. 3 of the 5 most win shares accumulated in a single playoffs were done by him. He has the second highest PER in a single playoffs ever too. I guess...what else did you expect? Of course he's going to put up insane numbers.

He's also played in far fewer games, so the raw WS is certainly impressive.

koreancabbage
05-09-2014, 10:30 AM
Not very hard when you have the weakest competition possible. Let's be real here.

I thought real competition brings out the best in the players.

valade16
05-09-2014, 10:44 AM
To be honest I didn't even bother looking at the lists. The sample size is so small that who cares? We can talk about their performances on an individual level. Plus, being able to face the Rockets defense (Aldridge) is a lot different than facing the Griz defense in round 1.

But if you think Gibson, Howard, or Westbrook have been top 5 players so far in the playoffs then you're nuts.

Really? I can't name 5 players who have played better than them in the playoffs thus far. Care to try?

flea
05-09-2014, 11:18 AM
Really? I can't name 5 players who have played better than them in the playoffs thus far. Care to try?

Aldridge, Duncan, Paul, Gasol, Lebron. Even mediocre defensive guys like Lillard and Parker have impressed me more.

The triple doubles are nice, and he hasn't been bad, but by crashing the offensive glass so much he lets his man get in transition. In the playoffs you just can't do that, especially now that they're playing a great transition team instead of the one of the worst.

D-Leethal
05-09-2014, 11:18 AM
Jesus. That WS list should tell you all you need to know about the validity of that stat. Bill James must be rollin' in his grave.

D-Leethal
05-09-2014, 11:19 AM
I thought real competition brings out the best in the players.

Maybe in the most pressure packed moments and maybe for a "legacy game" for the ages here and there but lets not act like your gonna steamroll through real competition for 6 straight games like you will through the Bobcats and Nets.

D-Leethal
05-09-2014, 11:23 AM
I don't know how anyone can take a stat that says Thiago Splitter and Taj Gibson were contributing the 2nd and 3rd most wins in these playoffs seriously. Its like anyone with a degree can show you a math formula, tell you it will determine the best players in the NBA, have Jared Jeffries and Mike James in the top 5 and you stat zombies will prop it up as some groundbreaking, next level ****. I really don't get it.

D-Leethal
05-09-2014, 11:26 AM
He's certainly had an easier go than CP3 or KD, the only two you can realistically expect to hang with him over the course of a full playoffs (no disrespect to PG, LMA, etc.). But, I mean, the guy holds the record for best WS/48 in a single playoffs ever. 3 of the 5 most win shares accumulated in a single playoffs were done by him. He has the second highest PER in a single playoffs ever too. I guess...what else did you expect? Of course he's going to put up insane numbers.

He's also played in far fewer games, so the raw WS is certainly impressive.

How can leading in any stat with such *** backwards results be impressive? Whats impressive about it?

Tony_Starks
05-09-2014, 11:29 AM
Who have the Heat been playing again? Oh that's right, nobody.

ManRam
05-09-2014, 11:39 AM
How can leading in any stat with such *** backwards results be impressive? Whats impressive about it?

What are you referencing? The fact that they lost in 2009?

mightybosstone
05-09-2014, 11:45 AM
Jesus. That WS list should tell you all you need to know about the validity of that stat. Bill James must be rollin' in his grave.

lol... C'mon man. You realize we're talking about a 6-game sample size here, right? And a lot of the top tier athletes in the postseason have been pretty damn inefficient thus far, hence why they're not on that list. It doesn't take a rocket science to look at the list, consider the sample size, recall how the players have played thus far and go "yeah... that makes sense."

bucketss
05-09-2014, 12:00 PM
wait what happened? weren't all of you cheering against the raptors because you thought the nets would beat miami? lmao!!

nickdymez
05-09-2014, 12:05 PM
Aldridge, Duncan, Paul, Gasol, Lebron. Even mediocre defensive guys like Lillard and Parker have impressed me more.

The triple doubles are nice, and he hasn't been bad, but by crashing the offensive glass so much he lets his man get in transition. In the playoffs you just can't do that, especially now that they're playing a great transition team instead of the one of the worst.

Its good to see someone here who can actually break down basketball rather than just talk about "WS" and "PER". No one here really knows the game, they believe they do because they are all in to the advanced stats crap. They try and dissmiss peoples actual basketball knowledge with things like "Well he has the best PER of all time". That means nothing to anyone but nerds. Those stats are made up and favor a particular type of player. They have no regard for system and playing style. Its a joke. But its the PSD way!

Chronz
05-09-2014, 12:13 PM
Wheres Chris Anderson ? Dude has been insanely efficient yet again.

Chronz
05-09-2014, 12:16 PM
Its good to see someone here who can actually break down basketball rather than just talk about "WS" and "PER". No one here really knows the game, they believe they do because they are all in to the advanced stats crap. They try and dissmiss peoples actual basketball knowledge with things like "Well he has the best PER of all time". That means nothing to anyone but nerds. Those stats are made up and favor a particular type of player. They have no regard for system and playing style. Its a joke. But its the PSD way!
Can we just fast forward to the part where you go ghost? You know, once the critical thinking ratches up beyond empty accusations.

nickdymez
05-09-2014, 12:24 PM
Can we just fast forward to the part where you go ghost? You know, once the critical thinking ratches up beyond empty accusations.

Dont get mad at me man. Its the truth. Just because you put all your stock into stupid *** numbers and no one else takes them serious but PSD and mensa nerds.

Chronz
05-09-2014, 12:30 PM
Dont get mad at me man. Its the truth. Just because you put all your stock into stupid *** numbers and no one else takes them serious but PSD and mensa nerds.
Yeah yeah yeah, just wake me up when the empty accusations have been depleted.

Chronz
05-09-2014, 12:38 PM
Also, is Bron really lapping the field? His PER isn't demonstrably higher and his WS/48 are essentially telling us that his team swept the injured bobcats. He was obviously a dominant part of that, but its pretty much what we would expect from him. I didn't expect KD to struggle to the degree that he has but its certainly understandable that it came against an elite defensive team that is very familiar and well equipped to defend him.

Tony_Starks
05-09-2014, 12:44 PM
I wonder how we figured out that Bird and Magic were great players back in the day? We didn't have W/S or PER......

IndyRealist
05-09-2014, 12:57 PM
I don't know how anyone can take a stat that says Thiago Splitter and Taj Gibson were contributing the 2nd and 3rd most wins in these playoffs seriously. Its like anyone with a degree can show you a math formula, tell you it will determine the best players in the NBA, have Jared Jeffries and Mike James in the top 5 and you stat zombies will prop it up as some groundbreaking, next level ****. I really don't get it.
Don't lump me, or most of the stat-heads on here, in with the OP. He picked two of the most archaic, poorly designed stats to showcase how "much" he knows about hoops. He's comparing one dung heap to another and saying, "this one smells better". Both PER and WS/48 show very poor correlation to efficiency differential, and thus to wins.

Btw, both of these are per minute stats, so they don't pretend to show who has contributed the most wins, they pretend to show how much impact a player has every minute he's on the floor. Thus, a player might have a high PER but only play a handful of minutes.

bucketss
05-09-2014, 12:57 PM
Its good to see someone here who can actually break down basketball rather than just talk about "WS" and "PER". No one here really knows the game, they believe they do because they are all in to the advanced stats crap. They try and dissmiss peoples actual basketball knowledge with things like "Well he has the best PER of all time". That means nothing to anyone but nerds. Those stats are made up and favor a particular type of player. They have no regard for system and playing style. Its a joke. But its the PSD way!

coming from the guy who said paul george was in the same level as guys like durant/lebron, your "eye" test has failed.

nickdymez
05-09-2014, 01:06 PM
I wonder how we figured out that Bird and Magic were great players back in the day? We didn't have W/S or PER......

I asked the same thing when i first came to this site. The answer I pretty much got was that people back then were ignorant and didnt know any better. lmao.

IndyRealist
05-09-2014, 01:10 PM
coming from the guy who said paul george was in the same level as guys like durant/lebron, your "eye" test has failed.
qft.

Crackadalic
05-09-2014, 01:15 PM
Two flawed stats don't mean much but still impressive on lebrons part

Tony_Starks
05-09-2014, 01:16 PM
I asked the same thing when i first came to this site. The answer I pretty much got was that people back then were ignorant then and didnt know any better. lmao.

Lol. Yeah those were the dark ages of basketball. We were basically just cavemen gathered around a TV!

nickdymez
05-09-2014, 01:18 PM
Lol. Yeah those were the dark ages of basketball. We were basically just cavemen gathered around a TV!

I also have seen people say that they changed their all time lists based on advanced stats. Thats when I knew this was bs propaganda.

jerellh528
05-09-2014, 01:19 PM
I also think that these two lists show us that PER is better than WS at indicating who is actually playing the best brand of basketball.

You bumped you own thread after it was burried lol

flea
05-09-2014, 01:20 PM
Pocket protectors, calculator, Melvin, etc.

hotdalton18
05-09-2014, 01:25 PM
Not very hard when you have the weakest competition possible. Let's be real here.


Lol

Hawkeye15
05-09-2014, 01:49 PM
The East teams (either by design or default) have become the equivalent of journeymen boxers used to keep the Heat fresh and groomed.

Which is ****ed up because the more deserving a West teams for the past two seasons have had to fight tooth and nail before dealing with the well rested cHeat.

you really think this started just the last 2 years? LeBron wasn't even in high school when the disparity of conferences started to be huge.

bathroom_man
05-09-2014, 02:10 PM
you really think this started just the last 2 years? LeBron wasn't even in high school when the disparity of conferences started to be huge.

Jordan havent beaten superstars, prime Ewing, miller, morning, wilkens & out west , prime malone twice, barkley, drexler, payton

James havent beaten nobody in their primes. Although he beaten a young rose, george & durant, an old pierce, garnett, duncan

IKnowHoops
05-09-2014, 02:12 PM
You bumped you own thread after it was burried lol

hahaha, you couldn't keep me on your ignore list for more than two days. This kid is addicted to answering me.

IKnowHoops
05-09-2014, 02:19 PM
You bumped you own thread after it was burried lol

And this just shows me you went out of your way to try and burry it by commenting on 15 consecutive threads as if you cared. It made commenting one time to put all your hard work in the trash all the more funny. The ultimate troll move. Trolled 15 threads just to try to burry one. ahahahahahahahahahahahhahahaha!

therealwd27
05-09-2014, 02:21 PM
Fixed it.

Indeed. Good job

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-09-2014, 02:27 PM
Not very hard when you have the weakest competition possible. Let's be real here.

The East teams (either by design or default) have become the equivalent of journeymen boxers used to keep the Heat fresh and groomed.

Which is ****ed up because the more deserving a West teams for the past two seasons have had to fight tooth and nail before dealing with the well rested cHeat.

Bingo, the Lebron groupies are to blind to see that.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-09-2014, 02:29 PM
Who have the Heat been playing again? Oh that's right, nobody.

Lol, right?

Hawkeye15
05-09-2014, 02:31 PM
Jordan havent beaten superstars, prime Ewing, miller, morning, wilkens & out west , prime malone twice, barkley, drexler, payton

James havent beaten nobody in their primes. Although he beaten a young rose, george & durant, an old pierce, garnett, duncan

read my post again for the proper timeline....

bathroom_man
05-09-2014, 02:36 PM
read my post again for the proper timeline....

bill russell and larry bird timeline era?

ManRam
05-09-2014, 02:43 PM
The stats aren't be-all, end-all. No one is saying they are. They also aren't completely meaningless either. LeBron has been the best player these playoffs purely in terms of on the court production. Yes, there's some valid context worth noting, be it strength of schedule or whatever. There are a ton more people can come up with to make themselves sleep better at night, and hey, that's fine!

I'd be curious if someone made a poll with the following choices.

I'm a Kobe fan and I think WS & PER are bogus.
I'm a Kobe fan and I don't think WS & PER are bogus.
I'm not a Kobe fan and I think WS & PER are bogus.
I'm not a Kobe fan and don't I think WS & PER are bogus.

jerellh528
05-09-2014, 02:47 PM
Wow! What an amazing find, one of the best players in the nba playing like he's one of the best after 6 games. Cool!!!!!!!!!!!!!

flea
05-09-2014, 02:48 PM
ManRam I think the per-capita mentions of Kobe in that post are enough to bring out the Kobephiles in force, nevermind the content.

ManRam
05-09-2014, 02:49 PM
I wonder how we figured out that Bird and Magic were great players back in the day? We didn't have W/S or PER......

Yes, because all we use to talk about current players' greatness are these two stats. Because he doesn't look great compared to most anyone ever if you just look at the more basic stats too :rolleyes:

:laugh:

27-6.8-5 on 56% shooting these playoffs.

Basic stats, eh? The most basic of basic.

If he maintains that, he's one of three players ever to do it...the other two (Chuck & English) did it in one series each (both lost).

It doesn't have to be these two stats. It never is. Y'all just hate advanced stats soooo much because they don't always paint the picture of your Beloved in the way you think it should be picked.

Hawkeye15
05-09-2014, 02:50 PM
bill russell and larry bird timeline era?

no. The east has sucked since 99-00 compared to the west. People act like its just a recent development or something, that the NBA has seemingly found a way to help LeBron James win championships.

bucketss
05-09-2014, 02:51 PM
Jordan havent beaten superstars, prime Ewing, miller, morning, wilkens & out west , prime malone twice, barkley, drexler, payton

James havent beaten nobody in their primes. Although he beaten a young rose, george & durant, an old pierce, garnett, duncan

u beat teams not players -

Hawkeye15
05-09-2014, 02:53 PM
Wow! What an amazing find, one of the best players in the nba playing like he's one of the best after 6 games. Cool!!!!!!!!!!!!!

sort of my basic reaction right now haha. We can't expect Durant to have his regular season numbers after grinding it out against an elite defensive team, and now playing another great team, one that I picked to go to the finals out west.

It will start to even out some, but yeah, this is kind of why I didnt agree with just throwing Durant ahead of James over one regular season. We need to see how the playoffs play out.

bathroom_man
05-09-2014, 02:54 PM
no. The east has sucked since 99-00 compared to the west. People act like its just a recent development or something, that the NBA has seemingly found a way to help LeBron James win championships.

Jordan had way better competition back then like i pointed out my previous post

bathroom_man
05-09-2014, 02:57 PM
u beat teams not players -

Superstars players can be a huge difference maker end of game also, not just team

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-09-2014, 02:58 PM
Wow! What an amazing find, one of the best players in the nba playing like he's one of the best after 6 games. Cool!!!!!!!!!!!!!

sort of my basic reaction right now haha. We can't expect Durant to have his regular season numbers after grinding it out against an elite defensive team, and now playing another great team, one that I picked to go to the finals out west.

It will start to even out some, but yeah, this is kind of why I didnt agree with just throwing Durant ahead of James over one regular season. We need to see how the playoffs play out.

Not really fair since the thunder have to get into gun fights while Lebron is sitting in the coach eating cookies and milk.

koreancabbage
05-09-2014, 02:59 PM
Bingo, the Lebron groupies are to blind to see that.

lol and the fact that all teams get like a week to rest before the Finals start. and that in the last 2/3 years the team from the West who made it to the Finals have played less games than the Heat and CRUISED to the Finals.

what a dumb *** statement.

gangis2169
05-09-2014, 03:00 PM
Killing Recreation League Teams!!!



Player Efficiency Rating
1. LeBron James-MIA 29.8
2. Dwight Howard-HOU 27.1
3. Taj Gibson-CHI 26.2
4. LaMarcus Aldridge-POR 24.7
5. Russell Westbrook-OKC 23.8
6. Chris Paul-LAC 23.8
7. Tim Duncan-SAS 21.7
8. Kevin Durant-OKC 21.6
9. Paul George-IND 21.1
10. Blake Griffin-LAC 20.9

Win Shares Per 48 Minutes
1. LeBron James-MIA .307
2. Tiago Splitter-SAS .232
3. Taj Gibson-CHI .220
4. Tim Duncan-SAS .209
5. Chris Paul-LAC .208
6. Chris Bosh-MIA .208
7. Trevor Ariza-WAS .205
8. Boris Diaw-SAS .193
9. Paul George-IND .190
10. Serge Ibaka-OKC .189

Hawkeye15
05-09-2014, 03:06 PM
Jordan had way better competition back then like i pointed out my previous post

sure he did, but that isn't what I was saying. And LeBron did go against peak Pistons teams, and some very good east teams before he signed with the Heat. The timeline just happens to fall with the collapse of truly elite teams out east, but we can't pretend it has been near the same level as the west for the last 14 seasons.

Hawkeye15
05-09-2014, 03:07 PM
Not really fair since the thunder have to get into gun fights while Lebron is sitting in the coach eating cookies and milk.

I think I just said that dude....

need to let it all play out. The Heat will run into competition eventually. And Durant can always get better.

Hawkeye15
05-09-2014, 03:08 PM
Superstars players can be a huge difference maker end of game also, not just team

he is right though. It is nearly impossible to win without a superstar, but its even more impossible for a superstar to win without substantial help.

nickdymez
05-09-2014, 04:45 PM
Yes, because all we use to talk about current players' greatness are these two stats. Because he doesn't look great compared to most anyone ever if you just look at the more basic stats too :rolleyes:

:laugh:

27-6.8-5 on 56% shooting these playoffs.

Basic stats, eh? The most basic of basic.

If he maintains that, he's one of three players ever to do it...the other two (Chuck & English) did it in one series each (both lost).

It doesn't have to be these two stats. It never is. Y'all just hate advanced stats soooo much because they don't always paint the picture of your Beloved in the way you think it should be picked.

The same could be said for your beloved Lebron. The only reason you stat heads love these ridiculous advanced stats so much is because it makes Lebron look better than he is. This stupid *** reasoning goes both ways. When I first joined this site and saw someone say something about advanced stats, I thought they were dumb. I've never looked up Kobe's WS. Are you kidding me? lol. All i know is that Im a Lakers fan, basketball fan, basketball coach, and lover of the game. Kobe just isnt good, he's great.

More-Than-Most
05-09-2014, 04:58 PM
But I thought the nets were elite competition and would wreck the heat? Lebron would be doing what he is doing against most west teams as well... Not sure the heat would win as easily as they are but he would still perform at this level... BECAUSE HE IS THE BEST IN THE WORLD AND NOBODY IS CLOSE.

IKnowHoops
05-09-2014, 05:05 PM
Killing Recreation League Teams!!!

Double pizost.

IKnowHoops
05-09-2014, 05:13 PM
Killing Recreation League Teams!!!

If the competition is so bad, then where is D-Wade. Noone gets more help than Lebron supposedly. Yet I see Chris Paul and Blake, Russell and KD. Where is D-wade at? If Bron gets the most help because he has D wade and they are also playing against the worst competition, shouldn't that equal D-wade up there? You can't have it both ways.

koreancabbage
05-09-2014, 05:23 PM
The same could be said for your beloved Lebron. The only reason you stat heads love these ridiculous advanced stats so much is because it makes Lebron look better than he is. This stupid *** reasoning goes both ways. When I first joined this site and saw someone say something about advanced stats, I thought they were dumb. I've never looked up Kobe's WS. Are you kidding me? lol. All i know is that Im a Lakers fan, basketball fan, basketball coach, and lover of the game. Kobe just isnt good, he's great.

Kobe is great, but Lebron is better. and Kevin Durant can be better than both if he continues this trend.

but all of them are going to be some of the best that have played the game when its all said and done.

nickdymez
05-09-2014, 05:32 PM
Kobe is great, but Lebron is better. and Kevin Durant can be better than both if he continues this trend.

but all of them are going to be some of the best that have played the game when its all said and done.

Who are you telling? Are you trying to convince me? I dont think that Lebron is better. Just like I never thought Kobe was better than Jordan. Just like I think Hakeem is better than Shaq. Why cant I have an opinion without ridicule?

Slade123
05-09-2014, 05:41 PM
Who are you telling? Are you trying to convince me? I dont think that Lebron is better. Just like I never thought Kobe was better than Jordan. Just like I think Hakeem is better than Shaq. Why cant I have an opinion without ridicule?

There's a difference between having an opinion and being flat out wrong.

nickdymez
05-09-2014, 05:43 PM
There's a difference between having an opinion and being flat out wrong.

Wrong says who? You?? lmfaooo. Who the hell are you? FOH

Hawkize31
05-09-2014, 05:47 PM
Bingo, the Lebron groupies are to blind to see that.

What exactly do you want from A.) the Heat team and B.) Heat fans?

Should the Heat concede game 1 of the finals because the Western Conference playoffs were so difficult for the West Champion? Should they boycott games until Silver realigns the conferences? The Heat have 0 control over how good or bad the other 14 Eastern conferences teams are. On the contrary, when they do their best to assemble a good team, they are criticized as cHeats.

Should the fans boycott the games because the East is too easy? Hell no. They should show up and root for their team. They should buy merchandise celebrating the championships.

This argument that the East is weak is in no way the fault or the problem of the Miami Heat. I don't know why its even brought up in relation to the Heat. They play and beat the teams in front of them, and that's all they can do.

still1ballin
05-09-2014, 05:49 PM
joke

Jamiecballer
05-09-2014, 05:52 PM
Jesus. That WS list should tell you all you need to know about the validity of that stat. Bill James must be rollin' in his grave.

Or that you've got no idea what actually wins game and are relying on memory and the eye test - easily the two most unreliable methods and use stats only to confirm "what you know".

nickdymez
05-09-2014, 06:11 PM
Or that you've got no idea what actually wins game and are relying on memory and the eye test - easily the two most unreliable methods and use stats only to confirm "what you know".

So again. Before advanced stats, people had no idea what they were doing? What a joke some of you are.

Raps08-09 Champ
05-09-2014, 06:17 PM
So again. Before advanced stats, people had no idea what they were doing? What a joke some of you are.

Stop being so mean to people man.

nickdymez
05-09-2014, 06:31 PM
Stop being so mean to people man.

Shut that **** up. Go to everyone else post and tell them that hall monitor

Yanks All Day
05-09-2014, 06:33 PM
I like the different spins that get put on everything to downplay LeBron. The Bobcats were a great defensive team this year. The Heat blasted through them 3/4 games and won one close one. The Nets were constructed with all Heat killers. They match up well at every position. They have the experience. It goes on. The Heat are walking through them like Brooklyn isn't there.

Miami isn't playing in the West. They didn't have to face Memphis. There was no Tony Allen. There was no Donald Sterling distraction. LeBron's shoes aren't tied tightly enough. Kobe isn't playing, so it doesn't intimidate the league. There are tons of asinine excuses. Miami has proven to be the best team in basketball for the last 2 years. LeBron is the best player walking the planet Earth. Here's something people don't want to consider: Maybe Miami just didn't care about the regular season. Wade missed 1/3 of the games. The Heat looked like they sleep walked through half the year. People talked of LeBron coasting until January. They know there is no reason to burn themselves out because they'll be playing until May and June.

Now that the playoffs are back on, they look like the Miami Heat again. They're flying around on defense. The ball is moving. LeBron is dominating. Wade is actually playing. The role players are hitting their shots. Games are ending after 3 quarters. This team clearly has a playoff gear, and it's very possible they are just that much better than their competition.

People don't want to talk about advanced stats because of the level of competition. That's fine. Use the eye test. LeBron looks like the best player in the game when he's on the floor. You can't deny him the ball and he gets to the rim at will. When he wants to, he goes into complete takeover mode. He's wreaking havoc on the defensive end of the floor and has been the best facilitator of the playoffs thus far. Kevin Durant won the MVP for a reason, but he doesn't look like the better player out there. It doesn't matter if the Heat don't play the West teams. They were 20-10 against the West this year. It's not like they'd all of a sudden be a first round exit. They beat Western teams. They only difference is maybe they'd have to go 5 or 6 games instead of sweeping. Lots of hating on LeBron for no reason at all. It's probably gonna sting watching him 3 peat.

Raps08-09 Champ
05-09-2014, 06:37 PM
Shut that **** up. Go to everyone else post and tell them that hall monitor

Come on man. Just because you don't like his opinion doesn't mean you have to resort to that.

Get smart.

bathroom_man
05-09-2014, 06:46 PM
sure he did, but that isn't what I was saying. And LeBron did go against peak Pistons teams, and some very good east teams before he signed with the Heat. The timeline just happens to fall with the collapse of truly elite teams out east, but we can't pretend it has been near the same level as the west for the last 14 seasons.

Peak pistons team was fading after 2 finals appearance. What other east teams do u speak of? He lost to a prime howard

bathroom_man
05-09-2014, 06:54 PM
he is right though. It is nearly impossible to win without a superstar, but its even more impossible for a superstar to win without substantial help.

Of course, u gotta have both with the exception of the pistons but jordan beat a prime utah team twice, prime phoenix, prime seattle, prime indiana, ny.

Lebron have achieve far less so his rings are less impressive but if he beats durant this yr, it will mark the first time he has beaten the opposing superstar in his peak

Raps08-09 Champ
05-09-2014, 06:56 PM
Bingo, the Lebron groupies are to blind to see that.

That has to be held against Lebron though?

Players like Russell, Wilt, 60's Celtics, Magic/KAJ/Worthy, Kobe/Shaq, Bird/Parish/DJ/McHale, etc get their credit for playing in the eras and the team/teammates they belong to. Where is the equality for Lebron?

You do not need to resort to calling fans as 'groupies'. No need for that.

Jamiecballer
05-09-2014, 07:09 PM
So again. Before advanced stats, people had no idea what they were doing? What a joke some of you are.

I didn't say that. I'm saying ranking players without the aid of stats is ignorant that's all. Are you really so arrogant that you believe a single set of human eyes can make a good evaluation of the value being provided by 10 different players all at the same time? More information is required that's all.

nickdymez
05-09-2014, 07:10 PM
I didn't say that. I'm saying ranking players without the aid of stats is ignorant that's all. Are you really so arrogant that you believe a single set of human eyes can make a good evaluation of the value being provided by 10 different players all at the same time? More information is required that's all.

All I'm saying is how was it done before?

Jamiecballer
05-09-2014, 07:16 PM
And with your permission I'd really like to use post #41 as my sig. But only if it's OK with you.

bucketss
05-09-2014, 07:22 PM
Shut that **** up. Go to everyone else post and tell them that hall monitor

you're such a immature kid.

nickdymez
05-09-2014, 07:23 PM
And with your permission I'd really like to use post #41 as my sig. But only if it's OK with you.

I don't give a **** what you do

nickdymez
05-09-2014, 07:24 PM
you're such a immature kid.

Agreed

Jamiecballer
05-09-2014, 07:56 PM
All I'm saying is how was it done before?

Public opinion was formed from some smart people, and some not so smart people.

nickdymez
05-09-2014, 07:58 PM
Public opinion was formed from some smart people, and some not so smart people.

Trying to hard

Jamiecballer
05-09-2014, 07:59 PM
Trying to hard

To hard what?

ManRam
05-09-2014, 08:06 PM
The same could be said for your beloved Lebron. The only reason you stat heads love these ridiculous advanced stats so much is because it makes Lebron look better than he is. This stupid *** reasoning goes both ways. When I first joined this site and saw someone say something about advanced stats, I thought they were dumb. I've never looked up Kobe's WS. Are you kidding me? lol. All i know is that Im a Lakers fan, basketball fan, basketball coach, and lover of the game. Kobe just isnt good, he's great.

I'll admit I was being a bit hyperbolic saying the only reason some people dismiss them is because they don't say what they want to believe...but it's certainly true to an extent. Any time a new tool/stat is released there always is the phenomena of people saying "where's my favorite player? this stat must be trash". Just look around the internet and see people's reactions to RPM recently. The whole point of advanced stats and analytics is to remove these biases.

It's fine not to like them...and hell, I hesitate to call these two "advanced" anymore. But to ignore them completely and so brashly is just silly. And it makes you look silly.

You were right tho, we don't need these two stats to see how LeBron has been the most productive thus far into the playoffs (regardless of why). Any basic stat will show that. Points, rebounds, assists and FG%...no one has done better than he has. There's no way around it. And, you're also right. It's been 6 games against meh teams. It's not a big deal, but he is playing better than everyone else (regardless of why). I really only care how he does in the Finals at this point...I'm sure you do too

therealwd27
05-09-2014, 08:17 PM
Yes, because all we use to talk about current players' greatness are these two stats. Because he doesn't look great compared to most anyone ever if you just look at the more basic stats too :rolleyes:

:laugh:


27-6.8-5 on 56% shooting these playoffs.

Basic stats, eh? The most basic of basic.

If he maintains that, he's one of three players ever to do it...the other two (Chuck & English) did it in one series each (both lost).

It doesn't have to be these two stats. It never is. Y'all just hate advanced stats soooo much because they don't always paint the picture of your Beloved in the way you think it should be picked.


This.

Shlumpledink
05-09-2014, 08:40 PM
I don't understand the obsession in trying to get a great stat in basketball. Basketball is not baseball. The reason why it is so interesting to me is it defies stats, all the time. Baseball has more predictability than basketball does, and that is pretty compelling to me.

3RDASYSTEM
05-09-2014, 09:13 PM
Player Efficiency Rating
1. LeBron James-MIA 29.8
2. Dwight Howard-HOU 27.1
3. Taj Gibson-CHI 26.2
4. LaMarcus Aldridge-POR 24.7
5. Russell Westbrook-OKC 23.8
6. Chris Paul-LAC 23.8
7. Tim Duncan-SAS 21.7
8. Kevin Durant-OKC 21.6
9. Paul George-IND 21.1
10. Blake Griffin-LAC 20.9

Win Shares Per 48 Minutes
1. LeBron James-MIA .307
2. Tiago Splitter-SAS .232
3. Taj Gibson-CHI .220
4. Tim Duncan-SAS .209
5. Chris Paul-LAC .208
6. Chris Bosh-MIA .208
7. Trevor Ariza-WAS .205
8. Boris Diaw-SAS .193
9. Paul George-IND .190
10. Serge Ibaka-OKC .189

based on PER, HOWARD will return back to mvp candidate next yr, making it a true 3 man race for next yr, sorry B GRIFFIN, even though he had a nice run this yr

Hawkeye15
05-09-2014, 09:15 PM
So again. Before advanced stats, people had no idea what they were doing? What a joke some of you are.

no, they did. Now they have better tools to put teams together and evaluate. Fact.

Do you have a math phobia or something, or is your hatred of advanced stats because it doesn't paint Kobe entirely in the light you have him?

Hawkeye15
05-09-2014, 09:18 PM
Of course, u gotta have both with the exception of the pistons but jordan beat a prime utah team twice, prime phoenix, prime seattle, prime indiana, ny.

Lebron have achieve far less so his rings are less impressive but if he beats durant this yr, it will mark the first time he has beaten the opposing superstar in his peak

you can feel they are watered down all you want. I disagree. I don't think the finals wins were any more impressive than LeBron's, if you want to give any credit to those Bulls, make it the earlier rounds...

Hawkeye15
05-09-2014, 09:20 PM
Peak pistons team was fading after 2 finals appearance. What other east teams do u speak of? He lost to a prime howard

that Pistons team may have been their strongest one dude. 64 wins, best SRS in the east, top 5 offense AND defense. That was their best team, they simply ran into LeBron James

Hawkeye15
05-09-2014, 09:21 PM
based on PER, HOWARD will return back to mvp candidate next yr, making it a true 3 man race for next yr, sorry B GRIFFIN, even though he had a nice run this yr

well, I don't base anything off one statistic when rating a player outright, but Howard had a very good season, and was awesome in the playoffs. If the beard hadn't sucked so bad, they are playing SA right now.

bathroom_man
05-09-2014, 09:33 PM
you can feel they are watered down all you want. I disagree. I don't think the finals wins were any more impressive than LeBron's, if you want to give any credit to those Bulls, make it the earlier rounds...

The utah team had the best record at home like almost every year but they suck on the road. Both malone and stockton were at their peak.

Seattle had good yrs after good years with prime payton & kemp

Barkley was at his peak with the suns, another powerhouse

Drexler wasnt a megastar but had a great team for years

That is way more impressive than lebrons win

Beat young mvp rose
Beat a young durant & westbrook
Beat a young paul george twice
Beat an old celtic team of pierce and garnet
Beat an old spurs team of duncan, parker
Beat a good defensive pistons team

How is that impressive at all.

Hawkeye15
05-09-2014, 09:35 PM
The utah team had the best record at home like almost every year but they suck on the road. Both malone and stockton were at their peak.

Seattle had good yrs after good years with prime payton & kemp

Barkley was at his peak with the suns, another powerhouse

Drexler wasnt a megastar but had a great team for years

That is way more impressive than lebrons win

Beat young mvp rose
Beat a young durant & westbrook
Beat a young paul george twice
Beat an old celtic team of pierce and garnet
Beat an old spurs team of duncan, parker
Beat a good defensive pistons team

How is that impressive at all.

any championship team is impressive. Where you want to rank them is up to you, or any individual.

You are leaving out some players/teams though, but that is fine.

NBA_Starter
05-09-2014, 09:38 PM
LeBron is the best in the world for a reason.

bathroom_man
05-09-2014, 09:43 PM
that Pistons team may have been their strongest one dude. 64 wins, best SRS in the east, top 5 offense AND defense. That was their best team, they simply ran into LeBron James

That 64 wins pistons team beat the heat then lost to the spurs. The lost the following yr to the cavs. Cant denied james had a great series but that pistons team was fading with flip saunders at the helm. It was the end of an era. Kinda like how jordan 1st ring, beaten the lakers with magic and all.

bathroom_man
05-09-2014, 09:45 PM
any championship team is impressive. Where you want to rank them is up to you, or any individual.

You are leaving out some players/teams though, but that is fine.

Agree on how u rank them. Which teams or players did i left off?

Bruno
05-09-2014, 09:59 PM
hate to say it but I'm leaning towards the three peat at this point. the west will be too battered to put up a fight and LBJ is showing all of us that he was indeed cruising during the regular season. flips been switched ladies and gentlemen.

bathroom_man
05-09-2014, 10:12 PM
hate to say it but I'm leaning towards the three peat at this point. the west will be too battered to put up a fight and LBJ is showing all of us that he was indeed cruising during the regular season. flips been switched ladies and gentlemen.

I think spurs have a chance if they dont take it to a game 7. But a better chance than last yr due to HCA

koreancabbage
05-09-2014, 10:15 PM
hate to say it but I'm leaning towards the three peat at this point. the west will be too battered to put up a fight and LBJ is showing all of us that he was indeed cruising during the regular season. flips been switched ladies and gentlemen.

does the team from the west really really get battered up too much - seems the Spurs had a swell easy time getting past everyone last year.

Thunder only had real issues in the west finals but really not much competition for them either.

I mean the West winner has stomped the competition in the West.

bathroom_man
05-09-2014, 10:46 PM
does the team from the west really really get battered up too much - seems the Spurs had a swell easy time getting past everyone last year.

Thunder only had real issues in the west finals but really not much competition for them either.

I mean the West winner has stomped the competition in the West.

I think hes referring to this yr. but ur right about last yr spurs team. They were only got drained by the warriors. The lakers and grizz were pushovers

bhavr
05-10-2014, 12:32 AM
yep Lebron is pretty good

Crackadalic
05-10-2014, 12:38 AM
hate to say it but I'm leaning towards the three peat at this point. the west will be too battered to put up a fight and LBJ is showing all of us that he was indeed cruising during the regular season. flips been switched ladies and gentlemen.

I don't think the western conference style of play can be considered battered up.

Playing a east coast style in a long series is more taxing because it's even more physical

Regardless who comes out of the west they should be well rested by the time the finals come

If the pacers do somehow win the series and it's a rematch from last years ecf then it's going to be a real dog fight

koreancabbage
05-10-2014, 12:44 AM
I think hes referring to this yr. but ur right about last yr spurs team. They were only got drained by the warriors. The lakers and grizz were pushovers

both teams got challenged in the conference finals. Miami went to 7 games - Miami got beaten up by Hibbert and West down low, Spurs went to 6. It has been as much of a challenge for the Heat as it was for any Western playoff team that has gone to the finals in the last 3 years. I think the Heat have played just as many or more playoff games than their Western conference foe the last three years if I'm not mistaken. Dallas, OKC, Spurs have wiped the playoffs during their respective years.

I think because of the Heats unorthodox lineup (lack of size) it actually makes it harder for them to win easily like everyone believes they do.

but this year, ya everyone got "beat up" in the first round in the west. However, Spurs making Portland look silly in this second round. two blow out games. Spurs look like they are fine.

I think its time to put down the argument that a "fresh" Heat team is facing a battered Western conference team in the Finals.

Old Spurs team demolished the West. I think everyone is truly underrating the Western teams just to make the Heat look 'bad' because they are the Heat. Young OKC team still demolished the West that year. I think a lot of people are dissing some really good teams just to take a shot at the Heat lol.

Chronz
05-10-2014, 01:08 AM
I don't understand the obsession in trying to get a great stat in basketball. Basketball is not baseball. The reason why it is so interesting to me is it defies stats, all the time. Baseball has more predictability than basketball does, and that is pretty compelling to me.

Have you seen the numbers when comparing the predictability of projections from both leagues?

Chronz
05-10-2014, 01:09 AM
All I'm saying is how was it done before?

With critical thinking. Stats have been around since day 1 of the league bro.

nickdymez
05-10-2014, 01:27 AM
With critical thinking. Stats have been around since day 1 of the league bro.

Advanced stats?

Hawkeye15
05-10-2014, 01:47 AM
Advanced stats?

no, stats. You know why they are called "advanced" stats? Because they are more advanced than the available numbers from those days.

FlashBolt
05-10-2014, 02:14 AM
Sort of on/off topic, LeBron in 2008-2009 playoffs.

PER: 37.4
W/S: .399

Wow. That has got to be the highest I've ever seen.

Chronz
05-10-2014, 12:43 PM
Advanced stats?
Semantically, yes.

We've used stats to help form opinions since day 1. That you call them advanced is cliche, they are all just stats. We just have more of them today. What does it matter what we had if what we have is constantly improving, as if that helps the point you're trying to make.

ManRam
05-10-2014, 12:57 PM
Sort of on/off topic, LeBron in 2008-2009 playoffs.

PER: 37.4
W/S: .399

Wow. That has got to be the highest I've ever seen.

The WS/48 is the highest ever. PER is second highest ever trailing only Hakeem (4 game run, however). The best I've ever seen a player play in the playoffs (or have been old enough to fairly assess this stuff, no disrespect to early 90s Jordan). I don't care if my Magic beat him, it wasn't on him. He was just ungodly that year. It's just that we were sinking a huge amount of threes, and the Cleveland supporting cast couldn't buy a three point bucket.

Bruno
05-10-2014, 02:27 PM
I think spurs have a chance if they dont take it to a game 7. But a better chance than last yr due to HCA


does the team from the west really really get battered up too much - seems the Spurs had a swell easy time getting past everyone last year.

Thunder only had real issues in the west finals but really not much competition for them either.

I mean the West winner has stomped the competition in the West.


I don't think the western conference style of play can be considered battered up.

Playing a east coast style in a long series is more taxing because it's even more physical

Regardless who comes out of the west they should be well rested by the time the finals come

If the pacers do somehow win the series and it's a rematch from last years ecf then it's going to be a real dog fight
I've picked the pacers to come out of the east since the beginning of the season. but LBJ is gearing up. OKC and LAC are beating each other up, nothing easy about that match up. I'm just talking about this year too. I'd still bet on the pacers because thats been my vote but I'm getting to the point where I think Miami might be the better bet. I'm still going to bet on indy though.

JeremiahWing
05-10-2014, 02:52 PM
Using one crappy stat for a small sample size over another crappy stat for the same sample size does not mean anything to me. I read the list after you asked me about it. Westbrook has had great games and duds, and his defense has been weak. He has absolutely not been a top 5 player so far, and doesn't even have an argument.

In the playoffs you can actually watch all the games and see how these stats match up with reality. The Westbrook example is perfect for this point.

mngopher35
05-10-2014, 03:54 PM
I've picked the pacers to come out of the east since the beginning of the season. but LBJ is gearing up. OKC and LAC are beating each other up, nothing easy about that match up. I'm just talking about this year too. I'd still bet on the pacers because thats been my vote but I'm getting to the point where I think Miami might be the better bet. I'm still going to bet on indy though.

As someone who tends to like your posting, please don't put too much on them. I don't want you to go broke :)

Bruno
05-10-2014, 04:11 PM
As someone who tends to like your posting, please don't put too much on them. I don't want you to go broke :)
haha, were talking six packs of beer here, bottle of wine at the most.

mngopher35
05-10-2014, 05:03 PM
haha, were talking six packs of beer here, bottle of wine at the most.

haha alright, that seems pretty good. I am not sure about the pacers this year anymore. Before the season I still had the Heat but thought it would be another big battle. I just don't know where they are at as a team anymore with their recent stretch. They do always seem to play hard vs. Miami and cause match-up issues so it is still possible. I still think Miami wins it though and the last couple months have only strengthened my opinion.

The finals however could be a different story. I am not so sure Miami will be the favorite to me at that point. Clippers, OKC, and Spurs all have great teams this year that I think are capable champions.

therealwd27
05-10-2014, 05:22 PM
If it's not the Spurs, Heat in 5

IKnowHoops
05-10-2014, 06:33 PM
The WS/48 is the highest ever. PER is second highest ever trailing only Hakeem (4 game run, however). The best I've ever seen a player play in the playoffs (or have been old enough to fairly assess this stuff, no disrespect to early 90s Jordan). I don't care if my Magic beat him, it wasn't on him. He was just ungodly that year. It's just that we were sinking a huge amount of threes, and the Cleveland supporting cast couldn't buy a three point bucket.

I agree, he did everything. Off the top of my head, I think he averaged like 38/11/9

IKnowHoops
05-13-2014, 06:39 AM
Win Shares Per 48 Minutes
1. LeBron James-MIA .343
2. Tiago Splitter-SAS .230
3. Paul George-IND .228
4. Taj Gibson-CHI .220
5. Chris Paul-LAC .207
6. Trevor Ariza-WAS .206
7. Tim Duncan-SAS .192
8. Dwight Howard-HOU .185
9. Boris Diaw-SAS .185
10. Serge Ibaka-OKC .181

Player Efficiency Rating
1. LeBron James-MIA 33.4
2. Dwight Howard-HOU 27.2
3. Taj Gibson-CHI 26.4
4. Russell Westbrook-OKC 24.6
5. Chris Paul-LAC 24.2
6. Kevin Durant-OKC 22.9
7. LaMarcus Aldridge-POR 22.3
8. Paul George-IND 22.2
9. Blake Griffin-LAC 21.9
10. Tim Duncan-SAS 20.7

True Shooting Pct
1. Boris Diaw-SAS .684
2. LeBron James-MIA .678
3. Serge Ibaka-OKC .672
4. Amir Johnson-TOR .672
5. Kyle Korver-ATL .659
6. Patrick Patterson-TOR .653
7. Trevor Ariza-WAS .649
8. DeAndre Jordan-LAC .648
Jonas Valanciunas-TOR .648
10. Taj Gibson-CHI .625


:worthy:

Crackadalic
05-13-2014, 11:25 AM
Lebron James doing his thing right now.

Tony_Starks
05-13-2014, 11:52 AM
I don't know, Tiago Splitter might give him a run for his money..

FlashBolt
05-13-2014, 11:56 AM
Win Shares Per 48 Minutes
1. LeBron James-MIA .343
2. Tiago Splitter-SAS .230
3. Paul George-IND .228
4. Taj Gibson-CHI .220
5. Chris Paul-LAC .207
6. Trevor Ariza-WAS .206
7. Tim Duncan-SAS .192
8. Dwight Howard-HOU .185
9. Boris Diaw-SAS .185
10. Serge Ibaka-OKC .181

Player Efficiency Rating
1. LeBron James-MIA 33.4
2. Dwight Howard-HOU 27.2
3. Taj Gibson-CHI 26.4
4. Russell Westbrook-OKC 24.6
5. Chris Paul-LAC 24.2
6. Kevin Durant-OKC 22.9
7. LaMarcus Aldridge-POR 22.3
8. Paul George-IND 22.2
9. Blake Griffin-LAC 21.9
10. Tim Duncan-SAS 20.7

True Shooting Pct
1. Boris Diaw-SAS .684
2. LeBron James-MIA .678
3. Serge Ibaka-OKC .672
4. Amir Johnson-TOR .672
5. Kyle Korver-ATL .659
6. Patrick Patterson-TOR .653
7. Trevor Ariza-WAS .649
8. DeAndre Jordan-LAC .648
Jonas Valanciunas-TOR .648
10. Taj Gibson-CHI .625


:worthy:

Ridiculous efficiency.. We say it every time but I don't think people truly understand what he's doing year in and year out. I mean look at the PER. Dwight/Taj aren't even playing. W/S are a complete .1 over the next.

IKnowHoops
05-28-2014, 06:15 AM
Most of the analytic guys on this forum have gone pretty low key over the last few months.

All the dudes dick riding love, harden, heck, in the Knicks forum we even had analytic guys sweating Steve Novak And blaming our downfall on trading him!

Brooklyn and Indy both beat Mia during the regular season, I'm the sure the analytics for those games were greatly on there side, and it meant nothing in the playoffs. NBA season and the games during the regular season, that mean nothing, are a joke, to take those stats seriously, is pointless.

IMO it was the Klove fans here who made so many posters here, analytic crazy. Before him, I never remember it being so prevalent on PSD.

As of May 28 2014

Player Efficiency Rating
1. LeBron James-MIA 32.2
2. Dwight Howard-HOU 27.3
3. Taj Gibson-CHI 26.6
4. Russell Westbrook-OKC 24.7
5. Chris Paul-LAC 23.8
6. Kevin Durant-OKC 23.1
7. Blake Griffin-LAC 21.8
8. LaMarcus Aldridge-POR 21.2
9. Dwyane Wade-MIA 20.8
10. Tim Duncan-SAS 20.8

Win Shares Per 48 Minutes
1. LeBron James-MIA .307
2. Tiago Splitter-SAS .230
3. Chris Andersen-MIA .230
4. Taj Gibson-CHI .221
5. Trevor Ariza-WAS .202
6. Chris Paul-LAC .197
7. Tim Duncan-SAS .192
8. Dwight Howard-HOU .186
9. Patrick Patterson-TOR .172
10. Russell Westbrook-OKC .170

Win Shares
1. LeBron James-MIA 3.3
2. Kevin Durant-OKC 2.5
3. Russell Westbrook-OKC 2.3
4. Paul George-IND 2.3
5. Tim Duncan-SAS 2.1
6. Tiago Splitter-SAS 2.0
7. Chris Paul-LAC 1.9
8. Trevor Ariza-WAS 1.7
9. Serge Ibaka-OKC 1.7
10. Kawhi Leonard-SAS 1.7

True Shooting Pct
1. Amir Johnson-TOR .672
2. LeBron James-MIA .671
3. Chris Andersen-MIA .667
4. Kyle Korver-ATL .659
5. Danny Green-SAS .659
6. Serge Ibaka-OKC .657
7. Patrick Patterson-TOR .653
8. DeAndre Jordan-LAC .648
9. Jonas Valanciunas-TOR .648
10. Steven Adams-OKC .638

Sorry to keep you waiting sir. Enjoy the glory of advanced statistics!!!!!!!!

FlashBolt
05-28-2014, 12:54 PM
As of May 28 2014

Player Efficiency Rating
1. LeBron James-MIA 32.2
2. Dwight Howard-HOU 27.3
3. Taj Gibson-CHI 26.6
4. Russell Westbrook-OKC 24.7
5. Chris Paul-LAC 23.8
6. Kevin Durant-OKC 23.1
7. Blake Griffin-LAC 21.8
8. LaMarcus Aldridge-POR 21.2
9. Dwyane Wade-MIA 20.8
10. Tim Duncan-SAS 20.8

Win Shares Per 48 Minutes
1. LeBron James-MIA .307
2. Tiago Splitter-SAS .230
3. Chris Andersen-MIA .230
4. Taj Gibson-CHI .221
5. Trevor Ariza-WAS .202
6. Chris Paul-LAC .197
7. Tim Duncan-SAS .192
8. Dwight Howard-HOU .186
9. Patrick Patterson-TOR .172
10. Russell Westbrook-OKC .170

Win Shares
1. LeBron James-MIA 3.3
2. Kevin Durant-OKC 2.5
3. Russell Westbrook-OKC 2.3
4. Paul George-IND 2.3
5. Tim Duncan-SAS 2.1
6. Tiago Splitter-SAS 2.0
7. Chris Paul-LAC 1.9
8. Trevor Ariza-WAS 1.7
9. Serge Ibaka-OKC 1.7
10. Kawhi Leonard-SAS 1.7

True Shooting Pct
1. Amir Johnson-TOR .672
2. LeBron James-MIA .671
3. Chris Andersen-MIA .667
4. Kyle Korver-ATL .659
5. Danny Green-SAS .659
6. Serge Ibaka-OKC .657
7. Patrick Patterson-TOR .653
8. DeAndre Jordan-LAC .648
9. Jonas Valanciunas-TOR .648
10. Steven Adams-OKC .638

Sorry to keep you waiting sir. Enjoy the glory of advanced statistics!!!!!!!!

Just insane. To think he can keep it up 13 games into the playoffs? Just wow. I mean just look at the distance from 1-2. 5 higher in PER, .77 higher than Tiago Splitter, .8 W/S, and as for the TS%, how many of those players are the superstar players of their team who can shoot, postup, and basically do it all on the offensive end?

ewing
05-28-2014, 01:22 PM
shocking!

ewing
05-28-2014, 01:29 PM
my eyes were telling me that Cory Joseph was the most impactful player remaining in the playoffs and had played better then anyone through out. Thanks for setting me straight OP!

ManRam
05-28-2014, 01:47 PM
I don't know why people are so in awe about his numbers when he did what he did in 2009. That forever, even though they lost, will set the bar for individual efforts for me. The guy is a cheat code, he's shown it plenty of times before.

NoahH
05-28-2014, 01:55 PM
Tiago Splitter is the second best player in the league. #BankIt

JEDean89
05-28-2014, 03:39 PM
no offense to LBJ, but who the **** has he been playing against in the eastern conference? notice how the only player he has played against on any of those lists are Paul George (who appears once)? Yes LBJ is greatness but he's played the bobcats, the nets and the reeling pacers. Guys on the Thunder have played the Grizz, Clippers and Spurs. It's abosutely and incomparable playing field for LBJ vs the guys in the West. Never has a team had such a wide open window to the finals for 4 years in a row as the Heat have.

mightybosstone
05-28-2014, 04:19 PM
no offense to LBJ, but who the **** has he been playing against in the eastern conference? notice how the only player he has played against on any of those lists are Paul George (who appears once)? Yes LBJ is greatness but he's played the bobcats, the nets and the reeling pacers. Guys on the Thunder have played the Grizz, Clippers and Spurs. It's abosutely and incomparable playing field for LBJ vs the guys in the West. Never has a team had such a wide open window to the finals for 4 years in a row as the Heat have.

Since when does who you play impact your offensive production? If anything, we should pay more attention to the defensive players and overall team defense of the opposing teams, not the merit of the opposing teams themselves. For example, Durant clearly put up better numbers against the Clippers and the Grizzlies. Is Memphis better than LA? Hell no. But they have the better perimeter defender.

The fact that Lebron has continued dominant statistical production against George and Stephenson-one of the best wing duos in the league-makes it all the more impressive.

D-Leethal
05-28-2014, 04:33 PM
Since when does who you play impact your offensive production? If anything, we should pay more attention to the defensive players and overall team defense of the opposing teams, not the merit of the opposing teams themselves. For example, Durant clearly put up better numbers against the Clippers and the Grizzlies. Is Memphis better than LA? Hell no. But they have the better perimeter defender.

The fact that Lebron has continued dominant statistical production against George and Stephenson-one of the best wing duos in the league-makes it all the more impressive.

How on Earth can you say your opponent doesn't have an impact on your offensive production? 1 defender has a bigger impact than the entire team? I know you watch enough basketball that the only time a great defender can truly make a bonafide impact is in isolation. It takes team to trap, team to meet at the rim, team to shut down screens, 1 guy to guard in isolation. Saying "we should look at the opposing defender and not the opposing team" is ludicrous, and the Grizz are a better defensive team right now than Indy and they have been for awhile. This is the same Indy team that couldn't guard Atlanta's spread offense spearheaded by Jeff Teague, its not a miracle the LeBron led spread offense is working them too.

flea
05-28-2014, 04:46 PM
Since when does who you play impact your offensive production? If anything, we should pay more attention to the defensive players and overall team defense of the opposing teams, not the merit of the opposing teams themselves. For example, Durant clearly put up better numbers against the Clippers and the Grizzlies. Is Memphis better than LA? Hell no. But they have the better perimeter defender.

The fact that Lebron has continued dominant statistical production against George and Stephenson-one of the best wing duos in the league-makes it all the more impressive.

I think Memphis is better than the Clippers. One has been to the WCF and the other hasn't, just for starters.

ewing
05-28-2014, 04:49 PM
modern statistics/research discovering the wheel again, and again, and again, and again.....

Pablonovi
05-28-2014, 05:23 PM
Just insane. To think he can keep it up 13 games into the playoffs? Just wow. I mean just look at the distance from 1-2. 5 higher in PER, .77 higher than Tiago Splitter, .8 W/S, and as for the TS%, how many of those players are the superstar players of their team who can shoot, postup, and basically do it all on the offensive end WHILE being their team's #1 defender?

Hey FB,
Improved/perfected?

Pablonovi
05-28-2014, 05:34 PM
Just found this thread and read thru it.

Some thoughts on this thread:
1) "IKnowHoops" maintains his propensity for starting threads that provoke the most heat;

2) Best Posters (so far): Hawk, ManRam, (Chronz - but he gets "demerits" for shorter posts)
There have been some other good posters (sorry for leaving you out here).

3) I've got LBJ #5 GOAT. (Behind: KAJ, Magic, MJ, Wilt <- this is my order; any Top 5 list that includes these 4 in any order, is all right with me).

4) If uninjured, LBJ ALMOST FOR SURE WILL KEEP MOVING UP
(I'd bet 1 spot per year; till he's at least tied =#1).
(If he stays uninjured for 5 more years or so:) LBJ will pick up at least 1+ more Chips, 5 More All-NBA 1st Teams, 1-2 More MVPs; and approach #1 on most (advanced) stats lists. Given this, I'll keep moving him up my GOAT List.

5) I BET HE ENDS HIS CAREER NEAR-UNIVERSALLY CONSIDERED AT LEAST TIED FOR #1; PROBABLY #1 ALONE
IF he reaches 16 Great Seasons (like KAJ), I'll have him at least equal =#1).

JEDean89
05-28-2014, 09:00 PM
Since when does who you play impact your offensive production? If anything, we should pay more attention to the defensive players and overall team defense of the opposing teams, not the merit of the opposing teams themselves. For example, Durant clearly put up better numbers against the Clippers and the Grizzlies. Is Memphis better than LA? Hell no. But they have the better perimeter defender.

The fact that Lebron has continued dominant statistical production against George and Stephenson-one of the best wing duos in the league-makes it all the more impressive.

omg did you really say that who you play has no impact on your offensive production?

JEDean89
05-28-2014, 10:05 PM
I think Memphis is better than the Clippers. One has been to the WCF and the other hasn't, just for starters.

also the difference between the clippers and memphis is negligable compared to the bobcats and anyteam in the west.

jerellh528
05-28-2014, 11:07 PM
Tonight's stinker by james should lowers these quite a bit, especially considering the small sample size this pseudo data represents

mightybosstone
05-28-2014, 11:24 PM
How on Earth can you say your opponent doesn't have an impact on your offensive production? 1 defender has a bigger impact than the entire team? I know you watch enough basketball that the only time a great defender can truly make a bonafide impact is in isolation. It takes team to trap, team to meet at the rim, team to shut down screens, 1 guy to guard in isolation. Saying "we should look at the opposing defender and not the opposing team" is ludicrous, and the Grizz are a better defensive team right now than Indy and they have been for awhile. This is the same Indy team that couldn't guard Atlanta's spread offense spearheaded by Jeff Teague, its not a miracle the LeBron led spread offense is working them too.
Did you not read what I said whatsoever? I said that the "defensive players and overall team defense of the opposing teams" is far more significant when measuring the effects on an offensive player than the talent of the opposing team. Reread it, bro. Of course team defense matters. But what I'm saying is that a great player can put up some freakish numbers against a great team if the opposing team is incapable of slowing him down defensively.

Everything you're saying is true, but you're essentially arguing with yourself, because I never said anything contrary to those points.


I think Memphis is better than the Clippers. One has been to the WCF and the other hasn't, just for starters.
You're talking about teams from two different seasons with two different coaches that both had significant roster changes. A lot can change in a year, and the Clippers were unquestionably a better basketball team last season. There's literally no barometer that could prove otherwise whatsoever.


omg did you really say that who you play has no impact on your offensive production?
I'm saying that the quality of the opposing team doesn't necessarily have any bearing on an offensive player's production, yes. The quality of the opposing team's defense and its individual defenders does, but not the overall quality of a team. For example, I think the Clippers and Rockets are better basketball teams without question than Chicago, but I'd be more impressed by Durant or Lebron torching the Bulls than the Clippers or Rockets because they're inferior defensive basketball teams.

It's really just common sense. Good teams can be terrible defensively. Bad teams can be great defensively. Good defenses are more likely to give an offensive player a hard time than bad defenses. I don't know how to say it any simpler than that. :shrug:

nickdymez
05-28-2014, 11:28 PM
whats his "W/S" look like now?

justinnum1
05-28-2014, 11:29 PM
whats his "W/S" look like now?
:dance:

nickdymez
05-28-2014, 11:34 PM
:dance:

He'll never pass Jordan in tittles with stat lines like 7/2/4

:dance:

JEDean89
05-28-2014, 11:40 PM
@mightyboss, so you think lebron's production would be the same if his first 2 series were against the clippers and the grizzlies as opposed to the bobcats and nets? you can think whatever you want man, that is your right, just please know that you are wrong.

justinnum1
05-28-2014, 11:41 PM
He'll never pass Jordan in tittles with stat lines like 7/2/4

:dance:

I don't care about him passing jordan.

:dance:

flea
05-28-2014, 11:48 PM
The only significant roster change for Memphis was an upgrade in getting Courtney Lee and being able to play worthless Tayshaun less. Oh and they upgraded their backup center position. Just because they're on the Kia ads and have the Sportscenter dunks doesn't mean they're better than Memphis, who only lost to the Thunder because they got jobbed.

What's new about the Clippers this year from last? Hedo Turkoglu, Big Baby? Please. You probably also think the Rockets or Blazers are better than Memphis.

ATX
05-28-2014, 11:56 PM
James has a bad game...Trolls come out from under their bridges...Enjoy your day in the sun! Too bad the series isn't defined by game 5. I think his 30+PPG in the previous 13 playoff games outweighs one game, but I'm sure the trolls will disagree with their flawless logic.

mightybosstone
05-28-2014, 11:58 PM
@mightyboss, so you think lebron's production would be the same if his first 2 series were against the clippers and the grizzlies as opposed to the bobcats and nets? you can think whatever you want man, that is your right, just please know that you are wrong.
No, but I never said they would, did I? That being said, COULD Lebron put up similar stats against the Clippers and Grizzlies that he put up against the Bobcats and Nets? Hell yes he could. Prior to this horrible game tonight, look at what he did to Indiana in the previous four games. Look at the numbers he put up against the Pacers last season or the many great series he had against the Celtics or against the Pistons back when Detroit was a dominant defensive team. Great offensive players can perform extremely well against any opponent regardless of their defensive prowess.

That being said, any offensive player is statistically less likely to play well against a slower pace, defensive-minded team like Memphis. That's not some kind of brilliant, shocking statement. That's common sense. Fewer possessions and better team defense means the opposing offense and its players are scoring fewer points.

But AGAIN let me be clear that a player's offensive production has LESS to do with the talent of the opposing team and MORE to do with the opposing team's defensive ability. As I said previously, I think the Clippers are a better team than Memphis, but if Lebron or Durant played 100 games against Memphis and 100 against the Clippers, they're going to almost certainly be more productive against LA than Memphis.


The only significant roster change for Memphis was an upgrade in getting Courtney Lee and being able to play worthless Tayshaun less. Just because they're on the Kia ads and have the Sportscenter dunks doesn't mean they're better than Memphis, who only lost to the Thunder because they got jobbed.

What's new about the Clippers this year from last? Hedo Turkoglu, Big Baby? Please. You probably also think the Rockets or Blazers are better than Memphis.
Ummm... How about JJ Reddick and the fact that Blake Griffin and DeAndre Jordan were SUBSTANTIALY better basketball players than a year ago? You're just totally glossing over such obvious improvements on that Clippers team that I'm questioning whether you watched any Clippers games at all this season. If you think Memphis is a better basketball team, I'm not really sure what to tell you. You can believe that, but I don't think you're likely to find many competent NBA fans who would agree with you.

Deutsch Konig
05-29-2014, 12:04 AM
The next person who mentions Lebron and MJ in the same sentence needs to get slapped upside the head. Mike NEVER had a playoff game even remotely close to this bums.

Lebron strictly relies on bogus calls from the refs and muscling smaller players for his points. Jordan was all skill and finesse, it's like comparing Rhode Island to California.

Can we please stop with the MJ/Lebron comparisons now??

flea
05-29-2014, 12:10 AM
Ummm... How about JJ Reddick and the fact that Blake Griffin and DeAndre Jordan were SUBSTANTIALY better basketball players than a year ago? You're just totally glossing over such obvious improvements on that Clippers team that I'm questioning whether you watched any Clippers games at all this season. If you think Memphis is a better basketball team, I'm not really sure what to tell you. You can believe that, but I don't think you're likely to find many competent NBA fans who would agree with you.

Reddick I forgot didn't play last year for them, but let's not act like that's a major upgrade. Plus he replaced a player better than him in Bledsoe. What I saw was a team that had certainly improved but still lost for the same reasons they always did.

It's hilarious you speak for NBA fans in saying that they're significantly better when the Griz beat them pretty easily in 6 games last season on their way to the WCF (again, somewhere the Clips have never been). If they were such a better team then they probably would have looked more like it this year or last, no? They didn't play the Thunder was well as the Griz this year and they lost to the Griz last year. Not much evidence supports you.

koreancabbage
05-29-2014, 12:11 AM
I don't care about him passing jordan.

:dance:

LOL what can you say to that.

ewing
05-29-2014, 12:11 AM
The only significant roster change for Memphis was an upgrade in getting Courtney Lee and being able to play worthless Tayshaun less. Oh and they upgraded their backup center position. Just because they're on the Kia ads and have the Sportscenter dunks doesn't mean they're better than Memphis, who only lost to the Thunder because they got jobbed.

What's new about the Clippers this year from last? Hedo Turkoglu, Big Baby? Please. You probably also think the Rockets or Blazers are better than Memphis.


you need a [B][ barometer/B]! Looking a multiple pieces of data and drawing a conclusion is out

mightybosstone
05-29-2014, 12:20 AM
Reddick I forgot didn't play last year for them, but let's not act like that's a major upgrade. Plus he replaced a player better than him in Bledsoe.
That would be blatantly false. Bledsoe was a backup PG. Reddick was the team's starting SG. And they replaced Bledsoe with a pretty darn good backup PG in Darren Collison. And before you suggest that Bledsoe got a lot of his minutes at PG last season, 82games.com suggests that nearly 90% of his minutes came from the point and not the 2-guard spot.


What I saw was a team that had certainly improved but still lost for the same reasons they always did.
I don't care why they lost. This isn't about why a team lost. It's about who the better team is. The Clippers were a better team in every possible barometer you could use to judge basketball teams this season. They had the better record, a superior SRS and advanced further in the playoffs. Hell, if they don't break down in the final few minutes of Game 5, they're probably playing San Antonio right now in the conference finals.


It's hilarious you speak for NBA fans in saying that they're significantly better when the Griz beat them pretty easily in 6 games last season on their way to the WCF (again, somewhere the Clips have never been). If they were such a better team then they probably would have looked more like it this year or last, no? They didn't play the Thunder was well as the Griz this year and they lost to the Griz last year. Not much evidence supports you.
Did the Grizzlies play the Thunder better? That's debatable. All three of their wins in the series came in overtime and they got completely blown out in the last two losses whereas the Clippers won both of their games by double digits and came one fourth quarter collapse away from taking a 3-2 lead themselves. You're essentially arguing that the Grizzlies are better based on postseason results from one season previous and a sample size this postseason of one game. That's a pretty weak foundation to base your argument on, bro.

Regardless, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. You're entitled to believe what you want to believe, and I'm going to stick to my guns that the Clippers are a better team based on the substantial evidence in front of me.

Chronz
05-29-2014, 12:21 AM
Reddick I forgot didn't play last year for them, but let's not act like that's a major upgrade. Plus he replaced a player better than him in Bledsoe. What I saw was a team that had certainly improved but still lost for the same reasons they always did.
Memphis lost for the same reasons they always do too. And actually, the Clippers were never this good defensively within their core guys (in years past, defensive depth was a key driving force, not so much this year). To assume its just Reddick thats different would be to ignore the decline/improvement of players on both teams. Clips got further this year AND won more games while displaying a higher level of efficiency. Im suppose to ignore that because they reached a rather arbitrary section of the playoffs a year ago (this while playing against inferior comp)?


It's hilarious you speak for NBA fans in saying that they're significantly better when the Griz beat them pretty easily in 6 games last season on their way to the WCF (again, somewhere the Clips have never been).
Clippers have already beaten Memphis as well, why should we be swayed by them taking out a freshly injured OKC team?


If they were such a better team then they probably would have looked more like it this year or last, no?
They did.


They didn't play the Thunder was well as the Griz this year and they lost to the Griz last year. Not much evidence supports you.
A single matchup is irrelevant compared to the totality of the evidence. For instance, the sub.500 Hawks pushed the eventual champion Celtics to 7 games one year, those same Celtics defeated the Lakers in the Finals in 6 games. Doesn't mean the Hawks were the better team. The same 2 teams could play again and not play the same amount of games.

mightybosstone
05-29-2014, 12:24 AM
you need a [B][ barometer/B]! Looking a multiple pieces of data and drawing a conclusion is out

Inability to use bold correctly aside, using multiple pieces of data to draw a conclusion is exactly what I just did.

Which team is more talented? Clippers
Which team has the better coach? Clippers
Which team had the better record? Clippers
Which team had the better SRS? Clippers
Which team had the higher point differential? Clippers
Which team made it further in the playoffs? Clippers
Which team passes the eye test as appearing to be the better team? Clippers

I used multiple pieces of data to form a conclusion, and my conclusion are that the Clippers are the better basketball team.

ewing
05-29-2014, 12:28 AM
Inability to use bold correctly aside, using multiple pieces of data to draw a conclusion is exactly what I just did.

Which team is more talented? Clippers
Which team has the better coach? Clippers
Which team had the better record? Clippers
Which team had the better SRS? Clippers
Which team had the higher point differential? Clippers
Which team made it further in the playoffs? Clippers
Which team passes the eye test as appearing to be the better team? Clippers

I used multiple pieces of data to form a conclusion, and my conclusion are that the Clippers are the better basketball team.


good for you. Flea seems to disagree. I'm not sure. Knicks and Griz thats clear. These two team are both good and who is better depends on match ups and who shows up.

flea
05-29-2014, 01:07 AM
I think you're forgetting what is being argued, both Chronz and mighty. You said the Clips are worlds better and no competent fan could disagree. The Griz have been arguably more successful and certainly on par - unless you put a lot of stock in regular season wins (I don't because NBA regular season is a goddamn joke). I am not the one saying one is significantly better than the other, but rather that I think there is a good argument either way - and I happen to come down on the side of Memphis.

I hope next year we're treated to a Griz/Clips series so we can settle this, as neither team can do anything significant to upgrade. As a corollary though, how come nobody slams the Clips (and Rivers I guess) for that Reddick trade? I understood the reasoning at the time and hindsight is always nice, but Jesus. If the Suns could nearly make the playoffs with a Tucker/Frye/Plumlee frontcourt driven by their 2 PG attack then you figure the Clips should have been able to do it. Both CP3 and Bledsoe are agile, quick, and feisty defenders capable of guarding much bigger opponents. Shameful that a conference opponent scouted your burgeoning star better than you did.

nastynice
05-29-2014, 01:21 AM
The next person who mentions Lebron and MJ in the same sentence needs to get slapped upside the head. Mike NEVER had a playoff game even remotely close to this bums.

Lebron strictly relies on bogus calls from the refs and muscling smaller players for his points. Jordan was all skill and finesse, it's like comparing Rhode Island to California.

Can we please stop with the MJ/Lebron comparisons now??

More than that, if MJ DID have a playoff game like this, there's no way his team would be in a position to still win. Whereas lebron's still was. Fair or not fair, its just one of the effects of the formation of the big three, and why some people will just never put him on the same level as all time greats.

But all that aside, Lebron is just an extremely SMART player. I understand, and appreciate, the guts and ice cold veins as someone like Kobe, where's he'd always want that last shot, he'd always be willing to take the glory or take the heat, whatever the outcome. But Lebron's style is just as amazing to watch, that last drive where he got bosh an open look from 3 point range, just amazing basketball iq. He's shown that consistently over this year especially, just making good decisions, making good plays down the stretch, making sure the ball is in the hands of the person with the best look at the basket. Some people knock him for that, but I think that's dumb, he's not kobe, he's lebron, and we should appreciate and recognize his skill set for what it is.

Hawkeye15
05-29-2014, 02:22 AM
Bron played like crap, but for everyone to start ******** on him after a single bad playoff games is hilarious.

I remember MJ had a game against Orlando I believe where he had 17-7 in like 40 minutes, yet his team blew them off the floor.

Great players have extremely occasional bad games.

Bruno
05-29-2014, 03:05 AM
before tonight this is LBJs basic post-season advanced line (13 games):

PER- 32.3
WS/48- 3.3
WS: .307
TS%- .671

it'll be interesting to see how much tonights game lower that line. he could probably put up back to back games like this after tonight and still be crushing everyone statistically.

ewing
05-29-2014, 11:33 AM
before tonight this is LBJs basic post-season advanced line (13 games):

PER- 32.3
WS/48- 3.3
WS: .307
TS%- .671

it'll be interesting to see how much tonights game lower that line. he could probably put up back to back games like this after tonight and still be crushing everyone statistically.

interesting :shrug:

ManRam
05-29-2014, 11:50 AM
before tonight this is lbjs basic post-season advanced line (13 games):

Per- 32.3
ws/48- 3.3
ws: .307
ts%- .671

it'll be interesting to see how much tonights game lower that line. He could probably put up back to back games like this after tonight and still be crushing everyone statistically.

per- 30.6 (-1.7)
ws- 3.2 (-0.1)
ws/48: .283 (-0.024)
ts%- .657 (-0.014)


Definitely hurt...definitely still towering above the rest

Win Shares Per 48 Minutes
1. LeBron James-MIA .283
2. Tiago Splitter-SAS .230
3. Chris Andersen-MIA .228
4. Taj Gibson-CHI .221
5. Trevor Ariza-WAS .202

Win Shares
1. LeBron James-MIA 3.2
2. Paul George-IND 2.6
3. Kevin Durant-OKC 2.5
4. Russell Westbrook-OKC 2.3
5. Tim Duncan-SAS 2.1

Player Efficiency Rating
1. LeBron James-MIA 30.6
2. Dwight Howard-HOU 27.3
3. Taj Gibson-CHI 26.6
4. Russell Westbrook-OKC 24.6
5. Chris Paul-LAC 23.7

True Shooting Pct
1. Amir Johnson-TOR .672
2. Chris Andersen-MIA .667
3. Kyle Korver-ATL .659
4. Danny Green-SAS .659
5. LeBron James-MIA .657

FraziersKnicks
05-29-2014, 11:55 AM
Bron played like crap, but for everyone to start ******** on him after a single bad playoff games is hilarious.

I remember MJ had a game against Orlando I believe where he had 17-7 in like 40 minutes, yet his team blew them off the floor.

Great players have extremely occasional bad games.

We all know you're only as good as your last game according to these forums… :rolleyes:

Chronz
05-29-2014, 12:06 PM
I think you're forgetting what is being argued, both Chronz and mighty. You said the Clips are worlds better and no competent fan could disagree. The Griz have been arguably more successful and certainly on par - unless you put a lot of stock in regular season wins (I don't because NBA regular season is a goddamn joke).
Well sure, if we ignore the entirety of a regular season (which would be the bigger joke) then Im sure you can come up with a good argument for alot of weird stuff, the same way I could argue this years sub.500 Hawks being a better team than Washington, simply because they put up a better fight vs the Pacers.


I am not the one saying one is significantly better than the other, but rather that I think there is a good argument either way - and I happen to come down on the side of Memphis.
Thats fine, but calling the regular season a joke and putting stock into isolated incidents with incomparable comp (while ignoring the fact that the Clippers have also beaten the Grizz) tells us how little you have to back that assertion.


I hope next year we're treated to a Griz/Clips series so we can settle this, as neither team can do anything significant to upgrade.
Me too, it was suppose to happen this year but the Grizz couldn't hold their end of the bargain. As for upgrading, the Clips have an ascending core, none of our key players are in danger of a significant decline, unlike Z-Bo, Tay and Tony. Im afraid this might have been their last year of contention with aging pieces like that. I know you dont put much stock in watching teams play during the regular season, but you really had to watch Z-Bo play to see how significantly his defense has declined. He was never a stopper but hes definitely lost a step and his offense is less consistent than ever. Dude looked finished by the time the playoffs rolled around.

The addition of Lee was pretty huge for them tho, so at least they have that. Clips have more room to grow tho, this will be the 2nd year of them running Doc's system, defensive improvement should be more evident next year. Bigmen tend to peak alil later, especially defensively, this team is ready to contend as is, Memphis will be lucky to get HCA next year.


As a corollary though, how come nobody slams the Clips (and Rivers I guess) for that Reddick trade? I understood the reasoning at the time and hindsight is always nice, but Jesus. If the Suns could nearly make the playoffs with a Tucker/Frye/Plumlee frontcourt driven by their 2 PG attack then you figure the Clips should have been able to do it. Both CP3 and Bledsoe are agile, quick, and feisty defenders capable of guarding much bigger opponents. Shameful that a conference opponent scouted your burgeoning star better than you did.
Because the Clips shored up 2 spots in the starting lineup for a bench guy that they werent going to be able to retain beyond this year. Sadly, Dudley turned out to be a bust. You can never tell when a glue guy falls off a cliff until it happens. Also, its simple basketball geometry why Phoenix is having more success with their dual PG attack, they run a modern inverted offense, we run with 2 traditional bigs, Bledsoe lacks the jumper to give them the space we need. But yes, if we were going to trade Bledsoe, it should have been for Afflalo

flea
05-29-2014, 12:25 PM
Even if you put a lot of stock in the regular season, the Clippers only have 7 more wins than the Grizzlies over the last 2 years. Gasol's ACL is a big reason why they played so poorly in the mid part of this season. Yes I know Paul missed a month with his shoulder, but as good as he is (best in the game IMO) he is not as important as Gasol to his team's success.

So please tell me, do those 7 additional regular season wins mean the Clips are appreciably better than the Grizzlies - the team that eliminated the Clippers fairly easily last year? Clips even had HCA and lost 4 in a row and none of their losses were within 10 points of the Grizzlies. That's about as convincing of a beatdown as you're going to get in the West these days.

ewing
05-29-2014, 12:32 PM
if you can look at the clips and griz on paper and guarantee me that you will accurately predict a 7 game series i will pay you to place bets for me.

Bruno
05-29-2014, 12:45 PM
per- 30.6 (-1.7)
ws- 3.2 (-0.1)
ws/48: .283 (-0.024)
ts%- .657 (-0.014)


Definitely hurt...definitely still towering above the rest

Win Shares Per 48 Minutes
1. LeBron James-MIA .283
2. Tiago Splitter-SAS .230
3. Chris Andersen-MIA .228
4. Taj Gibson-CHI .221
5. Trevor Ariza-WAS .202

Win Shares
1. LeBron James-MIA 3.2
2. Paul George-IND 2.6
3. Kevin Durant-OKC 2.5
4. Russell Westbrook-OKC 2.3
5. Tim Duncan-SAS 2.1

Player Efficiency Rating
1. LeBron James-MIA 30.6
2. Dwight Howard-HOU 27.3
3. Taj Gibson-CHI 26.6
4. Russell Westbrook-OKC 24.6
5. Chris Paul-LAC 23.7

True Shooting Pct
1. Amir Johnson-TOR .672
2. Chris Andersen-MIA .667
3. Kyle Korver-ATL .659
4. Danny Green-SAS .659
5. LeBron James-MIA .657
thanks for posting this, I was planning on do it. was pleased to see it already written out when i clicked on the thread :cheers:

Pablonovi
05-29-2014, 12:51 PM
The next person who mentions Lebron and MJ in the same sentence needs to get slapped upside the head. Mike NEVER had a playoff game even remotely close to this bums.

Lebron strictly relies on bogus calls from the refs and muscling smaller players for his points. Jordan was all skill and finesse, it's like comparing Rhode Island to California.

Can we please stop with the MJ/Lebron comparisons now??

Hey DK,
I've got my NBA All-Time GOAT Top 5:
1. KAJ
2. Magic
3. MJ
4. Wilt
5. LeBron

AND, I say (for what that's worth, hehe) that, barring injury, he'll almost assuredly get 1+ more Chips & have 5 more Great All-NBA 1st Team years. IF he does do that, I'll move him up one spot per year more or less until he's at least tied with KAJ for 1A/1B. (KAJ had 16+ Great Years, 10 Finals, 6 Chips & THE Greatest Shot.)

Magic was THE best TEAM-mate ever. MJ was a lousy teammate (when compared to everybody else in Top 5)

MJ ONLY had 11 Great Years (I'd rank him higher if he'd of not been forced out of the League due to his gambling - his own fault - I count that big against him. If MJ had had 1,2,3,4,5 more Great Years (suppose with 4 more Finals appearances, though no rings), wouldn't he have had an even greater career and reputation? Well, that's what KAJ DID DO.

LBJ already has as many Great Years as MJ ! (So did Magic and Wilt).

P.S. I got to watch all of these 5 greats entire careers (yes, I'm old enough to have seen all of: Wilt, West-Baylor, Big "O" and the Russell-led All-Star Celtics.
MJ IS NOT GOD!

Chronz
05-29-2014, 01:20 PM
good for you. Flea seems to disagree. I'm not sure. Knicks and Griz thats clear. These two team are both good and who is better depends on match ups and who shows up.

Shouldnt we credit the team that shows up the most, as the better team?? Particularly when all the objective evidence supports it?

ewing
05-29-2014, 01:25 PM
Shouldnt we credit the team that shows up the most, as the better team?? Particularly when all the objective evidence supports it?


all objective evidence that you care to consider.

Chronz
05-29-2014, 01:32 PM
Even if you put a lot of stock in the regular season, the Clippers only have 7 more wins than the Grizzlies over the last 2 years.
Regular season doesn't mean just wins, to boil it down to such a degree truly minimizes what you can deduce from their regular season play, looking at the regular season means we monitor the efficiency differentials, both from a team wide stance and lineup specific. We look at the availability and ability of the core groups.


Gasol's ACL is a big reason why they played so poorly in the mid part of this season. Yes I know Paul missed a month with his shoulder, but as good as he is (best in the game IMO) he is not as important as Gasol to his team's success.
I dont think you realize that you are only aiding my point. First of all, I no longer think CP3 is the clear cut best at his position so I might think less of him than you, but we are likely both in agreement that hes a better player than Marc. Imagine that, the Clippers can withstand the loss of a bonafide superstar better than the Grizz can withstand the loss of a basic All-Star. Remind me again how thats a good thing.


So please tell me, do those 7 additional regular season wins mean the Clips are appreciably better than the Grizzlies - the team that eliminated the Clippers fairly easily last year? Clips even had HCA and lost 4 in a row and none of their losses were within 10 points of the Grizzlies. That's about as convincing of a beatdown as you're going to get in the West these days.
LOL at wins being the sole barometer. Clips having HCA but playing with a SIGNIFICANTLY hampered Blake is suppose to convince me of what exactly? Im honestly surprised they allowed us to win 2 given the circumstances, but thats just how brilliant CP3 was that series.

Lemme make my point clear since you insist on looking at raw margins instead of the context behind them, the Clippers with an unplayable Blake Griffin are NOT better than a much healthier Grizzlies squad. I would never contest that, so PLZ stop bringing up irrelevant points. When I saw that we were able to push them so far without much to combat them (Blake and DJ were significantly lesser playoff players than they are now), I was not surprised when San Antonio dismantled them, they just had the luck of the draw that both of their prior opponents succumbed to significant injury (Blake+Westbrook) without any time to adjust.

Chronz
05-29-2014, 01:34 PM
all objective evidence that you care to consider.

What makes it objective is that it open to peer review and ultimately becomes a standard by which we can measure teams.

So PLZ, show me this objective evidence that I've missed because NONE of you have been able to provide it.


Tell me whats more objective , the regular season being disregarded in its entirety, or me actually trying to quantify its importance while considering the variables at play.


Lemme know when Im the one citing raw tallies with no context.

Chronz
05-29-2014, 01:38 PM
if you can look at the clips and griz on paper and guarantee me that you will accurately predict a 7 game series i will pay you to place bets for me.

lol. if you're the type of person who thinks guarantees exist in sports, then I got several bridges you might be interested in.

slashsnake
05-29-2014, 02:06 PM
Hey DK,
I've got my NBA All-Time GOAT Top 5:
1. KAJ
2. Magic
3. MJ
4. Wilt
5. LeBron

AND, I say (for what that's worth, hehe) that, barring injury, he'll almost assuredly get 1+ more Chips & have 5 more Great All-NBA 1st Team years. IF he does do that, I'll move him up one spot per year more or less until he's at least tied with KAJ for 1A/1B. (KAJ had 16+ Great Years, 10 Finals, 6 Chips & THE Greatest Shot.)

Magic was THE best TEAM-mate ever. MJ was a lousy teammate (when compared to everybody else in Top 5)

MJ ONLY had 11 Great Years (I'd rank him higher if he'd of not been forced out of the League due to his gambling - his own fault - I count that big against him. If MJ had had 1,2,3,4,5 more Great Years (suppose with 4 more Finals appearances, though no rings), wouldn't he have had an even greater career and reputation? Well, that's what KAJ DID DO.

LBJ already has as many Great Years as MJ ! (So did Magic and Wilt).

P.S. I got to watch all of these 5 greats entire careers (yes, I'm old enough to have seen all of: Wilt, West-Baylor, Big "O" and the Russell-led All-Star Celtics.
MJ IS NOT GOD!

Magic only had 11 great years too. And where you get the debate is what is great. I think Jordan had by far more of the most dominant years. Like this year, Blake Griffin had a great year. It wasn't on par with Lebron or Durants though. If Kareem had another 4 finals MVP's, or another year he was truly in consideration for the NBA MVP, would his career have been better? Because that's what Jordan DID DO. No offense to Kareem, he was an all timer and in my top 5 too, but he wasn't the same to his team as Jordan was to his for all 6 of those championships. Those last couple years he wasn't the driving force. Kareem got to play with Worthy, Wilkes, McAdoo, Goodrich, Magic, Dantley, and Oscar Robertson as hall of fame teammates and won 6 titles. Jordan got to play with Pippen as a HOF teammate and won 6 titles.

I think the bit about Jordan being a bad teammate is interesting. Everyone I've ever heard that played with him said he was a HARD teammate. That he expected perfection and his only goal was winning. That he'd just kill you in practice if you were dogging it or making mistakes. Maybe he wasn't as nice to his teammates as Magic, but I wouldn't push him down the list for that.

I also am wondering where you are getting just 11 good years from MJ from and saying Bron has 11. For Bron that means you are including his rookie season. For MJ, that means you are taking his out. Jordan as a rookie had arguably the best rookie year ever. He was a legit MVP candidate as a rookie. He outplayed Bron's rookie year in every possible way. Sounds like a bit homerish to me. Did Jordan set that standard that high for you that you dismiss what others would consider great? I mean his time in Washington even was on par with that rookie season for LBJ.

If you think Lebron had 11 great years, then doesn't Jordan get 14 of them then by your standard. And what he did to the Bulls in his comeback year (a .500 team with BJ Armstrong as their #2 player) was pretty amazing too. Again, he set the standard high. He looked a shell of himself in Washington, but if we are on that topic, Kareem did too when guys like Xavier McDaniel, Larry Smith, Blair Rasmussen, Laimbeer, Tarpley, Brickowski and others were outplaying him in the playoffs. He ended up with championships those years because he had a great team, where his teammates were a lot better than their opponents. Meanwhile Jordan won his by dominating his matchup in every single series.

You can put guys where you want... it is your list.

Deutsch Konig
05-29-2014, 02:13 PM
Hey DK,
I've got my NBA All-Time GOAT Top 5:
1. KAJ
2. Magic
3. MJ
4. Wilt
5. LeBron

AND, I say (for what that's worth, hehe) that, barring injury, he'll almost assuredly get 1+ more Chips & have 5 more Great All-NBA 1st Team years. IF he does do that, I'll move him up one spot per year more or less until he's at least tied with KAJ for 1A/1B. (KAJ had 16+ Great Years, 10 Finals, 6 Chips & THE Greatest Shot.)

Magic was THE best TEAM-mate ever. MJ was a lousy teammate (when compared to everybody else in Top 5)

MJ ONLY had 11 Great Years (I'd rank him higher if he'd of not been forced out of the League due to his gambling - his own fault - I count that big against him. If MJ had had 1,2,3,4,5 more Great Years (suppose with 4 more Finals appearances, though no rings), wouldn't he have had an even greater career and reputation? Well, that's what KAJ DID DO.

LBJ already has as many Great Years as MJ ! (So did Magic and Wilt).

P.S. I got to watch all of these 5 greats entire careers (yes, I'm old enough to have seen all of: Wilt, West-Baylor, Big "O" and the Russell-led All-Star Celtics.
MJ IS NOT GOD!

OK, here it goes...First of all I 100% respect your opinion and analysis of the game, I HATE people that don't respect anybody's opinion if it's different from theirs. With that being said.....

Magic played with the showtime Lakers who could be argued to be better than the current Heat. Magic's "flash" a lot of the time was unecessary and he did extra stuff just to be fancy, as far as overall SKILL and FINESSE of the game of basketball, he's not above Jordan at all. He was a better passer, and it stops there.

KAJ was similar to Wilt as in he was the only 7 footer worth a damn and basically bullied/used size to get all of his points and rebounds. Don't get me wrong his numbers are impressive, but you'd have to admit his competition (like Wilt's) was watered down. KAJ numbers would have been on par with D-Robs had he played in the 90's.

Next, MJ was anything but a lousy teammate. It was understood that it was his job to score, and he was the best to ever do it, and he did it effeciently. Mike NEVER averaged under 5 assists a game, that's similar to some starting point guards these days, all while he was leading the league in scoring. Agree to disagree, MJ was a great teammate on offense and especially defense.

Next, your statement that LEbron has already as many great seasons as MJ is wildly inaccurate. First of all, Lebron's competition is severely watered down compared to MJ's, the foul calls/no calls were drastically different, and last but not least, Lebron couldn't get anything done until he joined 2 other perennial all-star/future hall of famers. I'm not impressed with Lebron's recent accomplishment. Him joining the Heat, is exactly why he will never compare to Jordan.

Next, I'm surprised somebody actually knows the truth about why MJ "retired"!!! Good for you for thinking outside the box. OK, I;m writing a book here so I'm gonna end this with what I think is the top 10 ALL TIME taking era, team, and everything relevant into consideration......

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Magic Johnson
4. Shaquille O'neal
5. Kobe Bryant
___________________

next in line are: Hakeem Olajuwon, Lebron James, and Tim Duncan

slashsnake
05-29-2014, 02:44 PM
OK, here it goes...First of all I 100% respect your opinion and analysis of the game, I HATE people that don't respect anybody's opinion if it's different from theirs. With that being said.....


. OK, I;m writing a book here so I'm gonna end this with what I think is the top 10 ALL TIME taking era, team, and everything relevant into consideration......

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Magic Johnson
4. Shaquille O'neal
5. Kobe Bryant
___________________

next in line are: Hakeem Olajuwon, Lebron James, and Tim Duncan

Have to say that too. I respect Pablo's opinion, just don't agree, and when talking top 5 and who is where, we've got a lot of the same guys.

Shaq and Kobe are tough to call top 5 all time. I'd put them in my top 5 of who I've seen (since early 80's), but Bird is a hard one to leave out there. Shaq I always felt just really stood up in the finals (even the ones he lost) and that is a huge marker... part of why Jordan + Pippen winning 6 rings is big to me when Magic + Kareem (Plus Wilkes, Nixon, and Worthy in huge roles on those teams) only won 5 together. I think if we had a top 20 small forward list, Worthy would be right around Pippen. IF Lebron wins another championship as the #1 guy I think he passes Kobe though, and as far as ceilings, I would go with Prime Lebron over Prime Kobe.

It will be neat to see if Jordan's retirement really was a suspension some day. I get the investigation and possibilities of it, but on the flip side, sending your best and by far most marketable player out of the league for 147 games (odd number) sounds like the worst possible way to go about it. That is a big risk he doesn't come back as good. If you are going to do something secret, a secret fine would be a much better idea in my opinion. A lot of mouths have stayed shut on that one if that is true.

ewing
05-29-2014, 02:48 PM
What makes it objective is that it open to peer review and ultimately becomes a standard by which we can measure teams.

So PLZ, show me this objective evidence that I've missed because NONE of you have been able to provide it.


Tell me whats more objective , the regular season being disregarded in its entirety, or me actually trying to quantify its importance while considering the variables at play.


Lemme know when Im the one citing raw tallies with no context.


in the last two years the Clippers have won 7 more regular season games then the Griz and gotten there *** kicked by them in the playoffs. If you want to act smug and pretend there is some quantifiably way to show that the Clipper are clearly a better team feel free.

ManRam
05-29-2014, 02:54 PM
The notion that LeBron has played with more help in Miami than Bird, Magic, Kareem, Wilt, Bill etc. played with is something I genuinely can't understand. Sure, he had to LEAVE to get help, but all these other guys in the top-10 all time had the help come to them, or just were drafted on teams with HOFers already. I don't see why people hold LeBron to the same standards as these guys. You really think he would have left if he was drafted by a team with Kareem on it already? Or McHale/Parish/Maxwell/Tiny? Or Shaq? Or Oscar? Or Pippen even? I don't know. He left to even the playing field with those guys. Jordan is the only guy of those I listed (throw Shaq and Kobe there too) who clearly had less help than LeBron has finally gotten now for the bulk of their championships.

Bird's three rings came alongside 3 or 4 HOFers. Magic had 2-3-4-2-2 HOF team mates for his 5. And again, even MJ had 1-1-1 (impressive!) then 2-3-2 (similar to Bron). Bron has never won a ring with a player top-10 in win shares. Bird had 2 team mates in the top 10 his first two wins. TWO! MJ had 2 in 92, and 1 in both 96 and 97. LeBron never played with a team mate on an all-defense team. Magic, Bird and Jordan had one every year collectively except for 1 (Bird's 81 season). I've lately been collecting this info on those three because of this idiotic picture I saw.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BomqtlKCUAAhzv1.jpg

"On our own"??? :laugh: Come on.

I'm gonna start a thread in a few days about the Misconception of LeBron's 'Unprecedented' Help. All he did was even the playing field because his team couldn't do it for him.

Deutsch Konig
05-29-2014, 03:21 PM
The notion that LeBron has played with more help in Miami than Bird, Magic, Kareem, Wilt, Bill etc. played with is something I genuinely can't understand. Sure, he had to LEAVE to get help, but all these other guys in the top-10 all time had the help come to them, or just were drafted on teams with HOFers already. I don't see why people hold LeBron to the same standards as these guys. You really think he would have left if he was drafted by a team with Kareem on it already? Or McHale/Parish/Maxwell/Tiny? Or Shaq? Or Oscar? Or Pippen even? I don't know. He left to even the playing field with those guys. Jordan is the only guy of those I listed (throw Shaq and Kobe there too) who clearly had less help than LeBron has finally gotten now for the bulk of their championships.

Bird's three rings came alongside 3 or 4 HOFers. Magic had 2-3-4-2-2 HOF team mates for his 5. And again, even MJ had 1-1-1 (impressive!) then 2-3-2 (similar to Bron). Bron has never won a ring with a player top-10 in win shares. Bird had 2 team mates in the top 10 his first two wins. TWO! MJ had 2 in 92, and 1 in both 96 and 97. LeBron never played with a team mate on an all-defense team. Magic, Bird and Jordan had one every year collectively except for 1 (Bird's 81 season). I've lately been collecting this info on those three because of this idiotic picture I saw.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BomqtlKCUAAhzv1.jpg

"On our own"??? :laugh: Come on.

I'm gonna start a thread in a few days about the Misconception of LeBron's 'Unprecedented' Help. All he did was even the playing field because his team couldn't do it for him.

I apologize in advance for cherry-picking your post, but I just saw that statement and wanted to give my input....

To say that Lebron "evened" the playing field by joining Dwayne Wade (a top 3-5 player in the league at the time) AND Chris Bosh (a top 3 PF) is a severe understatement. "Evening" the playing field would have been to join the Knicks....He made sure he picked the TOP, most probable, situation he could to win a championship. He STILL didn't get it done, so they had to add Ray Allen, yet another future Hall of Famer.

To basically summarize what I'm trying to say, which is essentially quite obvious is....

Lebron/Cavs 2010 = 88-90
Lebron/Knicks 2010 = 90-92
Lebron/Bulls 2010 = 92-94
Lebron/Heat 2010 = 97-99

Out of the 4 primary choices the public is aware of, he picked the team that was gonna be ridiculously good......not even close to "evening" the playing field. Evening the playing field would have been to show up to the fight with a pistol, Lebron showed up with an AK-47.

flea
05-29-2014, 03:24 PM
Regular season doesn't mean just wins, to boil it down to such a degree truly minimizes what you can deduce from their regular season play, looking at the regular season means we monitor the efficiency differentials, both from a team wide stance and lineup specific. We look at the availability and ability of the core groups.

Fine, you like the advanced stats that love efficient offenses. I know that, and I like advanced stats too but they are not as reliable as in baseball. I still have yet to be won over by a defensive stat, especially at the individual level. It's nearly impossible to break down a sport like basketball that depends on 4 other guys doing something right (or at least not wrong) in order for a guy like Gasol to really flourish on defensive metrics.



I dont think you realize that you are only aiding my point. First of all, I no longer think CP3 is the clear cut best at his position so I might think less of him than you, but we are likely both in agreement that hes a better player than Marc. Imagine that, the Clippers can withstand the loss of a bonafide superstar better than the Grizz can withstand the loss of a basic All-Star. Remind me again how thats a good thing.

I think he's the better player, but we both know that strong defensive centers are the single most important individual part of a good defense. Whether an efficient scorer or a dominant post defender and rim protector is more important is still up in the air, IMO. Obviously the media, the contracts, and the fans reward efficient offensive players. Even if it is more important, CP3 doesn't have what most of those efficient scorers do (even though he is an absurdly efficient offensive player) - the ability to score when everyone knows that's what you're doing.

Lebron can do it because he's a semi-truck barreling into the lane, KD can do it because he's a deadly shooter, Westbrick and Parker because they are excellent finishers, and Curry because he cheats at basketball. CP3 has a nice midrange game, is a crafty finisher (but not on Parker's level, IMO, or at least he hasn't proven it in the playoffs), but much of his efficiency relies on teammates doing the right thing - sort of how Gasol's defense relies on his perimeter guys not being turnstiles.

All that is a roundabout way of saying that I think Gasol is much more important to his team than Paul. Not only is he the basis for how they structure their defense in funneling guys to the lane, but he is their 2nd best shot creator (for himself and others). A 6'0 PG just can't compete with that. It's always been a big man's game, which is basically why I like Memphis better than the Clippers even though the Clippers have the best player among the two teams.



LOL at wins being the sole barometer. Clips having HCA but playing with a SIGNIFICANTLY hampered Blake is suppose to convince me of what exactly? Im honestly surprised they allowed us to win 2 given the circumstances, but thats just how brilliant CP3 was that series.

Lemme make my point clear since you insist on looking at raw margins instead of the context behind them, the Clippers with an unplayable Blake Griffin are NOT better than a much healthier Grizzlies squad. I would never contest that, so PLZ stop bringing up irrelevant points. When I saw that we were able to push them so far without much to combat them (Blake and DJ were significantly lesser playoff players than they are now), I was not surprised when San Antonio dismantled them, they just had the luck of the draw that both of their prior opponents succumbed to significant injury (Blake+Westbrook) without any time to adjust.

Much healthier? I don't know about that. Blake's ankle injury hurt some, but he still played in every game and over 30 minutes in 2 of the losses - having pretty decent scoring games. The Clippers were a deeper team anyway. If the Thunder lose to the Spurs do you think people will blame the 2 games Ibaka completely missed? Not a chance, but he's probably more important to the Thunder than Blake is to the Clippers.

I just think the Grizzlies are a bad matchup for the Clippers, like they are for most teams except the Spurs, because they're just better than everyone on both sides of the ball with their bigs. You watch a lot of Blake Griffin and you've said before that his improvement this year is night and day from last. You certainly watch him more than I do but I still saw the same problems - not physical enough on either end down low, no reliable jumpshot, missed rotations, and awkward shots off the dribble with defenders well in position.

I'm just still not sure we're even arguing with each other. All I said was that it's not clear-cut that the Clippers are the better team. Is that the position you're staking, that no "competent NBA fan" could possible think the Grizzlies are the better team?

ManRam
05-29-2014, 03:59 PM
I apologize in advance for cherry-picking your post, but I just saw that statement and wanted to give my input....

To say that Lebron "evened" the playing field by joining Dwayne Wade (a top 3-5 player in the league at the time) AND Chris Bosh (a top 3 PF) is a severe understatement. "Evening" the playing field would have been to join the Knicks....He made sure he picked the TOP, most probable, situation he could to win a championship. He STILL didn't get it done, so they had to add Ray Allen, yet another future Hall of Famer.

To basically summarize what I'm trying to say, which is essentially quite obvious is....

Lebron/Cavs 2010 = 88-90
Lebron/Knicks 2010 = 90-92
Lebron/Bulls 2010 = 92-94
Lebron/Heat 2010 = 97-99

Out of the 4 primary choices the public is aware of, he picked the team that was gonna be ridiculously good......not even close to "evening" the playing field. Evening the playing field would have been to show up to the fight with a pistol, Lebron showed up with an AK-47.

Well, you did cherry pick pretty effectively. ;)

Maybe "evening the playing field" was a bit hyperbolic. In some situations, yeah...I really do think he evened it. Bird and Magic especially. Let alone guys like Bill who were playing with more HOFers than not. Compared to some, like early Jordan teams or even Kobe's Pau years...it isn't totally "even". But it's more "even" than it ever was when he was with Cleveland. That's undeniable. Because, in terms of "help", the playing field wasn't even close to ever being even in Cleveland.

He left and played alongside a lot of help. No doubt. But the thing is, "a lot of help" is what these top-10 players have ALL more or less had and all have more or less . Maybe it is "more" than some of those guys had on any given year (it most certainly is), maybe it's less. But the notion that he's the only one to play next to two All Stars and two HOFers is just silly. A lot of the 10 greatest players ever had that for a bulk of their careers. It's not perfectly even with every single comparative circumstance, but even if he overshot it, it's at least MORE even than it was before...

...and just because he had to leave to get closer (or even slightly passed) what his predecessors had, well, I don't care. It's not his fault he didn't have it from the get-go. I don't get why people are so offended that he left to get a luxury that every all time great that he's chasing had before him. I don't get why he had the obligation to pick a less talented team either. Why the hell should he have wanted to go play in NYK with nothing there? Why should he have stayed in Cleveland...a place where for 7 years they couldn't bring in a competent second option? Who cares? He doesn't have an obligation to go to the team that gives him a good chance to win, but not an overwhelming chance. It's FREE agency...

Deutsch Konig
05-29-2014, 04:26 PM
Well, you did cherry pick pretty effectively. ;)

Maybe "evening the playing field" was a bit hyperbolic. In some situations, yeah...I really do think he evened it. Bird and Magic especially. Let alone guys like Bill who were playing with more HOFers than not. Compared to some, like early Jordan teams or even Kobe's Pau years...it isn't totally "even". But it's more "even" than it ever was when he was with Cleveland. That's undeniable. Because, in terms of "help", the playing field wasn't even close to ever being even in Cleveland.

He left and played alongside a lot of help. No doubt. But the thing is, "a lot of help" is what these top-10 players have ALL more or less had and all have more or less . Maybe it is "more" than some of those guys had on any given year (it most certainly is), maybe it's less. But the notion that he's the only one to play next to two All Stars and two HOFers is just silly. A lot of the 10 greatest players ever had that for a bulk of their careers. It's not perfectly even with every single comparative circumstance, but even if he overshot it, it's at least MORE even than it was before...

...and just because he had to leave to get closer (or even slightly passed) what his predecessors had, well, I don't care. It's not his fault he didn't have it from the get-go. I don't get why people are so offended that he left to get a luxury that every all time great that he's chasing had before him. I don't get why he had the obligation to pick a less talented team either. Why the hell should he have wanted to go play in NYK with nothing there? Why should he have stayed in Cleveland...a place where for 7 years they couldn't bring in a competent second option? Who cares? He doesn't have an obligation to go to the team that gives him a good chance to win, but not an overwhelming chance. It's FREE agency...

I actually agree with a lot of what you just wrote. In particular, I agree I would myself have tried to get the best guys around me to help me get that first ring. I could absolutely be wrong with my next statement, but I believe The Cavs won 66 and 61 games the last 2 years before Lebron split.

Now I'm not a professional analyst, I'm just a student of the game, BUT if a team can win 60 games in back to back seasons, then I think they had more than enough ammo to get a ring with that squad. The headline and the legends would have been so much greater had Lebron took his home-team to the promised land.

I agree the past winners, even Detroit in 04, and Dallas in 10' had MULTIPLE good players, I think the reason people hate what Lebron did so much is because he was honestly on a good team, which can be proved by the back to back 60 win seasons, he just couldn't get it done in the playoffs......So he left a team that could have EASILY won a ring in the next couple of years for the sure thing in Miami.

It's kind of like on NBA2K, if you're team is a 99 overall, well then NO DUH you're probably 9/10 going to win a ring. I "personally" believe that the way the league is watered down these days and the lack of ELITE talent, that Lebron/Wade/Bosh/Allen is FAR FAR FAR more superior to this era than Jordan/Pippen were in the 90's. With that being said, it could be argued that Jordan made Pippen, making the first 3 rings that much more impressive.

Same can be said for Magic, I don't think Magic/ an aging Kareem/ and very good role player Worthy were THAT much better than the rest of the league.

In summary, I think Lebron no matter how many rings he wins, no matter what he does, he permanently ruined his legacy, his legend, by taking the easy way out and joining another superstar in Wade and top 3 PF in Bosh. Additionally, people will say that he still couldn't win with that group so they had to add a future hall of famer Ray Allen, who is also the greatest 3 point shooter of all time, who saved his butt from the Spurs last year with that miracle 3.

LEBRON IS A GREAT PLAYER, probably top 5 when it's all said and done, but he'll NEVER top MJ no matter what he does, and that'd something he understood when he made his South Beach announcement.

justinnum1
05-29-2014, 05:52 PM
:dance:

Pablonovi
05-29-2014, 08:23 PM
Hey slashsnake,
I'm putting my response above your post only because yours is so long ( I should talk! hehe)
1) I DID State That Magic Played 11 Great Seasons: I specifically stated the Magic only had 11 great years (in my last line before my P.S.:
"LBJ already has as many Great Years as MJ ! (So did Magic and Wilt)."

2) MJ PLAYED ONLY 11 Great Seasons: MJ played 15 seasons; 2 with the Wizards were clearly NOT Great; and two (86,95) where he played less than 20 games - clearly those can't be counted when they were not even 1/4 of the games, no?
So MJ PLAYED 11 Great Seasons including his rookie year.

3) LBJ has played 11 Great Seasons; I DO include his rookie year. (It was NOT as good as MJ's but it was Great)

4) COMBINED TOTALS FROM THE "ALL-NBA/ABA 1st, 2nd & 3rd TEAMS":
Sorted By
1: Most NBA+ABA 1sts+2nds Combined Team Selections (except where 1sts < 2nds); Then
2. Most NBA+ABA 1sts Team Selections; Then
3. Most NBA+ABA 2nds Team Selections; Then
4. Most NBA ....... 3rds Team Selections.

The following table only lists players with at least ten total selections.

* Denotes players inducted to the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame
^ Denotes players who are still active


# Player Total(1+2) 1st 2nd +3rd MVPs

1 Abdul-Jabbar, Kareem* 15 10 5 +0 6
double gap
2 Bryant, Kobe^ 13 11 2 +2 1
3 Malone, Karl* 13 11 2 +1 2
4 Duncan, Tim^ 13 10 3 +1 2 Did He Get 1st or 2nd in 2014 (or 3rd)
gap
5 West, Jerry* 12 10 2 +0 0
6 Erving, Julius* 12 9 3 +0 4 (MVP's: 3 ABA; 1 NBA)
gap
7 Jordan, Michael* 11 10 1 +0 5
8 Robertson, Oscar* 11 9 2 +0 1
mini-gap
9 Baylor, Elgin* 10 10 0 +0 0
10 Johnson, Magic* 10 9 1 +0 3
11 Bird, Larry* 10 9 1 +0 3
12 Barry, Rick * 10 9 1 +0 3
13 O'Neal, Shaquille 10 8 2 +4 1
14 James, Lebron 10 8 2 +0 4 I Assume He Got 1st in 2014
15 Chamberlain, Wilt* 10 7 3 +0 4
16 Havlicek, John* 11 4 7 +0 0
17 Russell, Bill* 11 3 8 +0 5
18 Barkley, Charles* 10 5 5 +1 1
gap
19 Olajuwon, Hakeem* 9 6 3 +3 1
20 Gervin, George* 9 5 4 +3 1
21 Nowitzki, Dirk^ 9 4 5 +3 1 Did He Get 1st or 2nd in 2014 (or 3rd)
22 Malone, Moses^ 9 4 5 +3 1
gap
23 Stockton, John* 8 2 6 +3 0
double gap
24 Robinson, David* 6 4 2 +4 1

others of note
[Played in pre-integrated pre-1960, days; so, All-NBA Selections REDUCED by 1/2 -> 2/3]
25 Pettit, Bob* 11 10 1 +0 2 -> 6 5 1 N.B.Played 1/2 career =pre-integrated days
26 Cousy, Bob* 12 10 2 +0 1 -> 4 3 1 N.B.Played 2/3 career =pre-integrated days
27 Schayes, Dolph* 12 6 6 +0 0 -> 4 2 2 N.B.Played2/3career=pre-integrated dys

5) KAJ's Teammates Vs MJ's Teammates:
Without doing a deep analysis here (this post has already taken me 4 hours); I'll just say that you have definitely overestimated the "strength" of KAJ's teammates and underestimated the "strength" of MJ's teammates.


Magic only had 11 great years too. And where you get the debate is what is great. I think Jordan had by far more of the most dominant years. Like this year, Blake Griffin had a great year. It wasn't on par with Lebron or Durants though. If Kareem had another 4 finals MVP's, or another year he was truly in consideration for the NBA MVP, would his career have been better? Because that's what Jordan DID DO. No offense to Kareem, he was an all timer and in my top 5 too, but he wasn't the same to his team as Jordan was to his for all 6 of those championships. Those last couple years he wasn't the driving force. Kareem got to play with Worthy, Wilkes, McAdoo, Goodrich, Magic, Dantley, and Oscar Robertson as hall of fame teammates and won 6 titles. Jordan got to play with Pippen as a HOF teammate and won 6 titles.

I think the bit about Jordan being a bad teammate is interesting. Everyone I've ever heard that played with him said he was a HARD teammate. That he expected perfection and his only goal was winning. That he'd just kill you in practice if you were dogging it or making mistakes. Maybe he wasn't as nice to his teammates as Magic, but I wouldn't push him down the list for that.

I also am wondering where you are getting just 11 good years from MJ from and saying Bron has 11. For Bron that means you are including his rookie season. For MJ, that means you are taking his out. Jordan as a rookie had arguably the best rookie year ever. He was a legit MVP candidate as a rookie. He outplayed Bron's rookie year in every possible way. Sounds like a bit homerish to me. Did Jordan set that standard that high for you that you dismiss what others would consider great? I mean his time in Washington even was on par with that rookie season for LBJ.

If you think Lebron had 11 great years, then doesn't Jordan get 14 of them then by your standard. And what he did to the Bulls in his comeback year (a .500 team with BJ Armstrong as their #2 player) was pretty amazing too. Again, he set the standard high. He looked a shell of himself in Washington, but if we are on that topic, Kareem did too when guys like Xavier McDaniel, Larry Smith, Blair Rasmussen, Laimbeer, Tarpley, Brickowski and others were outplaying him in the playoffs. He ended up with championships those years because he had a great team, where his teammates were a lot better than their opponents. Meanwhile Jordan won his by dominating his matchup in every single series.

You can put guys where you want... it is your list.

Chronz
05-30-2014, 01:59 AM
in the last two years the Clippers have won 7 more regular season games then the Griz and gotten there *** kicked by them in the playoffs. If you want to act smug and pretend there is some quantifiably way to show that the Clipper are clearly a better team feel free.
Better to "act smug" than ignore reality. Have you not been reading the thread? I already addressed this non-issue, check out this post:



Regular season doesn't mean just wins, to boil it down to such a degree truly minimizes what you can deduce from their regular season play, looking at the regular season means we monitor the efficiency differentials, both from a team wide stance and lineup specific. We look at the availability and ability of the core groups.


I dont think you realize that you are only aiding my point. First of all, I no longer think CP3 is the clear cut best at his position so I might think less of him than you, but we are likely both in agreement that hes a better player than Marc. Imagine that, the Clippers can withstand the loss of a bonafide superstar better than the Grizz can withstand the loss of a basic All-Star. Remind me again how thats a good thing.


LOL at wins being the sole barometer. Clips having HCA but playing with a SIGNIFICANTLY hampered Blake is suppose to convince me of what exactly? Im honestly surprised they allowed us to win 2 given the circumstances, but thats just how brilliant CP3 was that series.

Lemme make my point clear since you insist on looking at raw margins instead of the context behind them, the Clippers with an unplayable Blake Griffin are NOT better than a much healthier Grizzlies squad. I would never contest that, so PLZ stop bringing up irrelevant points. When I saw that we were able to push them so far without much to combat them (Blake and DJ were significantly lesser playoff players than they are now), I was not surprised when San Antonio dismantled them, they just had the luck of the draw that both of their prior opponents succumbed to significant injury (Blake+Westbrook) without any time to adjust.

Chronz
05-30-2014, 02:29 AM
Fine, you like the advanced stats that love efficient offenses. I know that, and I like advanced stats too but they are not as reliable as in baseball. I still have yet to be won over by a defensive stat, especially at the individual level. It's nearly impossible to break down a sport like basketball that depends on 4 other guys doing something right (or at least not wrong) in order for a guy like Gasol to really flourish on defensive metrics.
Efficiency is what wins games, its achieved both on offense and defense. I dont know what your opinion on the most objective measures we have has anything to do with this, they are STILL the most objective measures and thus are better to comprehend than ignore in their entirety.


I think he's the better player, but we both know that strong defensive centers are the single most important individual part of a good defense. Whether an efficient scorer or a dominant post defender and rim protector is more important is still up in the air, IMO. Obviously the media, the contracts, and the fans reward efficient offensive players. Even if it is more important, CP3 doesn't have what most of those efficient scorers do (even though he is an absurdly efficient offensive player) - the ability to score when everyone knows that's what you're doing.
I disagree, its more about replacement value. When the Rockets had a healthy Yao and Tmac, Yao was probably their best player when you considered his defensive contributions, but Tmac was the rudder that steered the ship, the primary reason being his backup was Luther Head, while Tmac got to play with a HOF'er in Deke when Yao was ailing. Either way, the fact that the Clippers can lose a player the caliber of CP3 while the Grizz were utterly reliant on a fringe-star is not helping your cause.


Lebron can do it because he's a semi-truck barreling into the lane, KD can do it because he's a deadly shooter, Westbrick and Parker because they are excellent finishers, and Curry because he cheats at basketball. CP3 has a nice midrange game, is a crafty finisher (but not on Parker's level, IMO, or at least he hasn't proven it in the playoffs), but much of his efficiency relies on teammates doing the right thing - sort of how Gasol's defense relies on his perimeter guys not being turnstiles.
Yeah I dont buy that kind of talk, what you can "prove" in the playoffs is largely dependent on having those teammates to help you and who you are facing. The evidence is when we've seen all those players locked down, some despite favorable circumstances. Still, lets say Im wrong, I think you focus too much on individual scoring output than what the player gets out of his team. For example, the Clippers were actually a better offensive unit than the Durant led Thunder in their respective series vs the Grizz last year. Both guys/teams lost but CP3 produced at higher rate and his team was the better offensive team, the reason the Clippers lost was because they couldn't defend worth a damn.


All that is a roundabout way of saying that I think Gasol is much more important to his team than Paul. Not only is he the basis for how they structure their defense in funneling guys to the lane, but he is their 2nd best shot creator (for himself and others). A 6'0 PG just can't compete with that. It's always been a big man's game, which is basically why I like Memphis better than the Clippers even though the Clippers have the best player among the two teams.
It has nothing to do with his height and everything to do with where hes at in his career and his teams replacement. We've already seen smaller, less influential defensive players, have greater impact than behemoths. LOL sorry bro but thats just really weak analysis that ignores historical trends.


Much healthier? I don't know about that. Blake's ankle injury hurt some, but he still played in every game and over 30 minutes in 2 of the losses - having pretty decent scoring games.
Hurt some? LOL, the dude couldn't move the same, him playing some was never contested, him being healthy is what Im bringing up. The guy was also battling back spasms before the playoffs even began. Anyone who watched the Clippers regularly knew how different Blake was.


The Clippers were a deeper team anyway.
Yeah sure, on the perimeter. Blake and DJ not being anywhere near as effective as they can be now is a HUGE difference.


If the Thunder lose to the Spurs do you think people will blame the 2 games Ibaka completely missed? Not a chance, but he's probably more important to the Thunder than Blake is to the Clippers.
Your probably wrong on that one, then again, its pretty easy to blurt whatever comes to mind when we get to ignore all tangible and subjective evidence, such as +/- analysis and the voting on a players value aka the MVP award.



I just think the Grizzlies are a bad matchup for the Clippers, like they are for most teams except the Spurs, because they're just better than everyone on both sides of the ball with their bigs. You watch a lot of Blake Griffin and you've said before that his improvement this year is night and day from last. You certainly watch him more than I do but I still saw the same problems - not physical enough on either end down low, no reliable jumpshot, missed rotations, and awkward shots off the dribble with defenders well in position.
My point was that those same problems have been minimized, this time a year ago, Blake would not have been remotely as productive, that holds even more true for DJ. Grizz are a tough out for any team, even the Spurs, but we've already proven capable of beating them without HCA and this was when the team was vastly inferior, all we require is a relatively even playing field in terms of health and Im taking that bet to the bank.


I'm just still not sure we're even arguing with each other. All I said was that it's not clear-cut that the Clippers are the better team. Is that the position you're staking, that no "competent NBA fan" could possible think the Grizzlies are the better team?
No, Im arguing the specifics of your points and why they remain a minority vote of confidence

ewing
05-30-2014, 02:34 AM
Better to "act smug" than ignore reality. Have you not been reading the thread? I already addressed this non-issue, check out this post:



your argument is ****. the clippers maybe going in the right direction but unless you could can confidently say they would win a series against the Griz or out perform the Griz in the playoffs now they are not clearly a better team.

Chronz
05-30-2014, 02:35 AM
Also, I shouldn't call Gasol a fringe star, I actually think very highly of him, he should be credited as a top-12 player without thinking too much about it. Its very conceivable that he means more to his team than CP3/Blake mean to theirs, for the simple reason that when one is out, the other can step it up. Without Gasol, the Grizz aint ****. That to me is their biggest weakness, and why you have aided my cause. A team thats overly reliant on one player does not have a better chance at success than the more versatile team. If both teams are relatively even in terms of health, the Clippers have won.

Chronz
05-30-2014, 02:41 AM
your argument is ****. the clippers maybe going in the right direction but unless you could can confidently say they would win a series against the Griz or out perform the Griz in the playoffs now they are not clearly a better team.

What part about it was ****, specifically?

You gonna "act smug" or you actually gonna try to refute any of that?

I dont know about clearly better but theres no doubt which team has more going for it, given everything we know about the 2 squads and their history.

And Im sorry but unless Conley/Gasol can take it up another notch, Im seeing 3 key guys entering their mid-30's on their team. Im suppose to be scared of that going forward? Better hope that team drafts well if you want to make any money on them vs the Clips.

ewing
05-30-2014, 07:17 AM
What part about it was ****, specifically?

You gonna "act smug" or you actually gonna try to refute any of that?

I dont know about clearly better but theres no doubt which team has more going for it, given everything we know about the 2 squads and their history.

And Im sorry but unless Conley/Gasol can take it up another notch, Im seeing 3 key guys entering their mid-30's on their team. Im suppose to be scared of that going forward? Better hope that team drafts well if you want to make any money on them vs the Clips.


They are not clearly better which is the statement that was refuted . Instead of just admitting that though you say a bunch of non sense. I'm not going down your rabbit hole of BS. I think this year's Clippers were clearly better then the Knicks. I think in a 7 game series the Clipper beat the Knicks 99 out of a 100 times. See you cant make a similar comparison b/t the Clippers and Griz b/c neither team is clearly better.

Chronz
05-30-2014, 01:44 PM
ok, we aint clearly better, but we definitely have the better case for being the superior team. Feel free to take the less likely candidate to win a series, better hope one of the stars are injured if they meet in the playoffs.

tredigs
05-30-2014, 05:06 PM
It's going to jump back up again tonight.

IKnowHoops
06-16-2014, 05:05 AM
Player Efficiency Rating
1. LeBron James-MIA 31.0
2. Dwight Howard-HOU 27.2
3. Taj Gibson-CHI 26.5
4. Russell Westbrook-OKC 24.9
5. Chris Paul-LAC 23.6
6. Kevin Durant-OKC 22.6
7. Blake Griffin-LAC 21.6
8. Tim Duncan-SAS 21.1
9. LaMarcus Aldridge-POR 21.0
10. Paul George-IND 20.5

True Shooting Pct
1. Amir Johnson-TOR .672
2. LeBron James-MIA .671
3. Danny Green-SAS .670
4. Kyle Korver-ATL .659
5. Tiago Splitter-SAS .657
6. Patrick Patterson-TOR .653
7. DeAndre Jordan-LAC .648
8. Jonas Valanciunas-TOR .648
9. Steven Adams-OKC .635
10. Serge Ibaka-OKC .633

Points Per Game
1. Kevin Durant-OKC 29.6
2. LeBron James-MIA 27.2
3. James Harden-HOU 26.8
4. Russell Westbrook-OKC 26.7
5. LaMarcus Aldridge-POR 26.2
6. Dwight Howard-HOU 26.0
7. DeMar DeRozan-TOR 23.9
8. Blake Griffin-LAC 23.5
9. Stephen Curry-GSW 23.0
10. Damian Lillard-POR 22.9

Field Goal Pct
1. DeAndre Jordan-LAC .730
2. Steven Adams-OKC .689
3. Amir Johnson-TOR .654
4. Jonas Valanciunas-TOR .633
5. Glen Davis-LAC .610
6. Tiago Splitter-SAS .606
7. Serge Ibaka-OKC .592
8. Chris Andersen-MIA .589
9. LeBron James-MIA .571
10. Taj Gibson-CHI .561

Win Shares Per 48 Minutes
1. LeBron James-MIA .270
2. Tiago Splitter-SAS .234
3. Taj Gibson-CHI .220
4. Trevor Ariza-WAS .202
5. Tim Duncan-SAS .200
6. Chris Paul-LAC .196
7. Dwight Howard-HOU .185
8. Chris Andersen-MIA .184
9. Kawhi Leonard-SAS .183
10. Danny Green-SAS .183

Win Shares
1. LeBron James-MIA 4.1
2. Tim Duncan-SAS 3.0
3. Paul George-IND 2.7
4. Kawhi Leonard-SAS 2.7
5. Russell Westbrook-OKC 2.5
6. Tiago Splitter-SAS 2.5
7. Kevin Durant-OKC 2.5
8. Manu Ginobili-SAS 2.1
9. Chris Bosh-MIA 2.0
10. Danny Green-SAS 1.9

The below caught my eye between Bron and Durant.

Field Goal Attempts
1. Kevin Durant-OKC 422
2. Russell Westbrook-OKC 398
3. Tony Parker-SAS 328
4. LeBron James-MIA 319
5. Paul George-IND 315
6. Tim Duncan-SAS 275
7. Dwyane Wade-MIA 266
8. LaMarcus Aldridge-POR 250
9. David West-IND 245
10. Blake Griffin-LAC 235

Field Goals
1. Kevin Durant-OKC 194
2. LeBron James-MIA 182
3. Russell Westbrook-OKC 167
4. Tony Parker-SAS 161
5. Tim Duncan-SAS 144
6. Paul George-IND 138
7. Dwyane Wade-MIA 135
8. David West-IND 121
9. Blake Griffin-LAC 117
10. Kawhi Leonard-SAS 115

Hard to say that the better scorer needs 100 more shots to get 10 more buckets. The numbers say Lebron is the best scorer in the playoffs anyway.

Anyway to the point, Lebron again dominated the playoffs even though the Heat could not win the ring.

jerellh528
06-16-2014, 05:12 AM
Why do you keep bumping this crap thread that's been buried for half a month? Lol. We get it Lebron has a good per. He earned fluffy stats in a lot of garbage minutes. Cool.

amos1er
06-16-2014, 05:33 AM
Why do you keep bumping this crap thread that's been buried for half a month? Lol. We get it Lebron has a good per. He earned fluffy stats in a lot of garbage minutes. Cool.

Lol.

lakerboy
06-16-2014, 06:35 AM
Somebody post Lebron's 4th quarter stats in the finals again

amos1er
06-16-2014, 06:49 AM
Somebody post Lebron's 4th quarter stats in the finals again

I don't have them off hand, but I do know that he averaged just about as many turnovers as he did assists.

basketfan4life
06-16-2014, 07:07 AM
The notion that LeBron has played with more help in Miami than Bird, Magic, Kareem, Wilt, Bill etc. played with is something I genuinely can't understand. Sure, he had to LEAVE to get help, but all these other guys in the top-10 all time had the help come to them, or just were drafted on teams with HOFers already. I don't see why people hold LeBron to the same standards as these guys. You really think he would have left if he was drafted by a team with Kareem on it already? Or McHale/Parish/Maxwell/Tiny? Or Shaq? Or Oscar? Or Pippen even? I don't know. He left to even the playing field with those guys. Jordan is the only guy of those I listed (throw Shaq and Kobe there too) who clearly had less help than LeBron has finally gotten now for the bulk of their championships.

Bird's three rings came alongside 3 or 4 HOFers. Magic had 2-3-4-2-2 HOF team mates for his 5. And again, even MJ had 1-1-1 (impressive!) then 2-3-2 (similar to Bron). Bron has never won a ring with a player top-10 in win shares. Bird had 2 team mates in the top 10 his first two wins. TWO! MJ had 2 in 92, and 1 in both 96 and 97. LeBron never played with a team mate on an all-defense team. Magic, Bird and Jordan had one every year collectively except for 1 (Bird's 81 season). I've lately been collecting this info on those three because of this idiotic picture I saw.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BomqtlKCUAAhzv1.jpg

"On our own"??? :laugh: Come on.

I'm gonna start a thread in a few days about the Misconception of LeBron's 'Unprecedented' Help. All he did was even the playing field because his team couldn't do it for him.

One quick question. People all praise LeBron for making teammates better, showing them better than what they are. Now you are saying he never had a teammate who is top 10 in win shares? Dwayne Wade was a top 3 player when lbj joined the HEAT and bosh was almost a top 25-10 player. LBJ is both the primary scorer and ball-handler/playmaker of ever team he plays on. How can you expect other players to be top 10 in win shares? Isn't that a little naive?

Even now LBJ has 2 all stars, one being top 2 SG and another being one of the best pf/c in the league. Good scorer/Great 3 point shooter in ray, absolutely "ZERO" competition in the east. 1 playoff series every year, if he wins that series he is a champion and if not people come and defend him to death.

Think of it this way, if LBJ was in OKC not Durant how will that affect westbrook statistically? I think he has zero chance to have those stats, tripple doubles or have a 40 point game against spurs. Because lbj would be both the primary scorer and ball handler. James is the best player in the game no doubt, but facts are still facts and he is not a prophet for that matter.

amos1er
06-16-2014, 07:14 AM
One quick question. People all praise LeBron for making teammates better, showing them better than what they are. Now you are saying he never had a teammate who is top 10 in win shares? Dwayne Wade was a top 3 player when lbj joined the HEAT and bosh was almost a top 25-10 player. LBJ is both the primary scorer and ball-handler/playmaker of ever team he plays on. How can you expect other players to be top 10 in win shares? Isn't that a little naive?

Even now LBJ has 2 all stars, one being top 2 SG and another being one of the best pf/c in the league. Good scorer/Great 3 point shooter in ray, absolutely "ZERO" competition in the east. 1 playoff series every year, if he wins that series he is a champion and if not people come and defend him to death.

Think of it this way, if LBJ was in OKC not Durant how will that affect westbrook statistically? I think he has zero chance to have those stats, tripple doubles or have a 40 point game against spurs. Because lbj would be both the primary scorer and ball handler. James is the best player in the game no doubt, but facts are still facts and he is not a prophet for that matter.

:clap:

siix
06-16-2014, 07:40 AM
lechoke bumping his stats against garbage teams in garbage minutes....cool

bucketss
06-16-2014, 08:34 AM
Somebody post Lebron's 4th quarter stats in the finals again

why does it matter when most of the games were blowouts and he had a cramp in game 1?


One quick question. People all praise LeBron for making teammates better, showing them better than what they are. Now you are saying he never had a teammate who is top 10 in win shares? Dwayne Wade was a top 3 player when lbj joined the HEAT and bosh was almost a top 25-10 player. LBJ is both the primary scorer and ball-handler/playmaker of ever team he plays on. How can you expect other players to be top 10 in win shares? Isn't that a little naive?

Even now LBJ has 2 all stars, one being top 2 SG and another being one of the best pf/c in the league. Good scorer/Great 3 point shooter in ray, absolutely "ZERO" competition in the east. 1 playoff series every year, if he wins that series he is a champion and if not people come and defend him to death.

Think of it this way, if LBJ was in OKC not Durant how will that affect westbrook statistically? I think he has zero chance to have those stats, tripple doubles or have a 40 point game against spurs. Because lbj would be both the primary scorer and ball handler. James is the best player in the game no doubt, but facts are still facts and he is not a prophet for that matter.

westbrook would be a more efficient scorer plus he probably would have two chips by now. hes definitely not gonna be like durant letting him take more shots than him

Kenny Powders
06-16-2014, 08:58 AM
The notion that LeBron has played with more help in Miami than Bird, Magic, Kareem, Wilt, Bill etc. played with is something I genuinely can't understand. Sure, he had to LEAVE to get help, but all these other guys in the top-10 all time had the help come to them, or just were drafted on teams with HOFers already. I don't see why people hold LeBron to the same standards as these guys. You really think he would have left if he was drafted by a team with Kareem on it already? Or McHale/Parish/Maxwell/Tiny? Or Shaq? Or Oscar? Or Pippen even? I don't know. He left to even the playing field with those guys. Jordan is the only guy of those I listed (throw Shaq and Kobe there too) who clearly had less help than LeBron has finally gotten now for the bulk of their championships.

Bird's three rings came alongside 3 or 4 HOFers. Magic had 2-3-4-2-2 HOF team mates for his 5. And again, even MJ had 1-1-1 (impressive!) then 2-3-2 (similar to Bron). Bron has never won a ring with a player top-10 in win shares. Bird had 2 team mates in the top 10 his first two wins. TWO! MJ had 2 in 92, and 1 in both 96 and 97. LeBron never played with a team mate on an all-defense team. Magic, Bird and Jordan had one every year collectively except for 1 (Bird's 81 season). I've lately been collecting this info on those three because of this idiotic picture I saw.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BomqtlKCUAAhzv1.jpg

"On our own"??? :laugh: Come on.

I'm gonna start a thread in a few days about the Misconception of LeBron's 'Unprecedented' Help. All he did was even the playing field because his team couldn't do it for him.

I think it was the smug way that the "Big 3" came to be is what leaves a sour taste in people's mouths. The only "taking my talents to South Beach" or the " not 1 not 2 not 3, etc" and the whole rock star treatment they gave themselves when they were introduced. I mean they were kind of setting themselves up to get ridiculed, no? I mean, I agree with you that talent wise this is probably not the best "big 3" assembled. But they wanted you to believe that they were and when failure came(which is nothing less then a championship) people pounced on them. It is so,e what deserving IMO, because they brought it on themselves.

DaBear
06-16-2014, 10:22 AM
Lebron is a choke artist

koreancabbage
06-16-2014, 10:39 AM
Lebron is a choke artist

no he's not - you must be really focussed on James during the entire series to not see the big picture. Lebron James tried to get his teammates involved BUT:

1) Spurs defense
2) his teammates sucked

I mean he would have to had scored probably 50+ points for them to have a chance last night lol. his assists are way down. Only means opponents are playing him better, his teammates better or his teammates are probably sucking. Probably a little bit of everything this entire series.

All in all, Spurs rampaged throughout the playoffs. Better team won in the end. That is not a choke by Lebron. it may be used as a illegitimate argument because thats the easy way out and only casual fans/ haters would say something as simple what you just stated.

DaBear
06-16-2014, 10:41 AM
Lebron is a choke artist

no he's not - you must be really focussed on James during the entire series to not see the big picture. Lebron James tried to get his teammates involved BUT:

1) Spurs defense
2) his teammates sucked

I mean he would have to had scored probably 50+ points for them to have a chance last night lol. his assists are way down. Only means opponents are playing him better, his teammates better or his teammates are probably sucking. Probably a little bit of everything this entire series.

All in all, Spurs rampaged throughout the playoffs. Better team won in the end. That is not a choke by Lebron. it may be used as a illegitimate argument because thats the easy way out and only casual fans/ haters would say something as simple what you just stated.

Of course, it's never Lebrons fault. How could I be so cruel and mean

koreancabbage
06-16-2014, 10:43 AM
I think it was the smug way that the "Big 3" came to be is what leaves a sour taste in people's mouths. The only "taking my talents to South Beach" or the " not 1 not 2 not 3, etc" and the whole rock star treatment they gave themselves when they were introduced. I mean they were kind of setting themselves up to get ridiculed, no? I mean, I agree with you that talent wise this is probably not the best "big 3" assembled. But they wanted you to believe that they were and when failure came(which is nothing less then a championship) people pounced on them. It is so,e what deserving IMO, because they brought it on themselves.

The only thing I can see that can actually be used against Lebron is this. The way he left Cleveland and the way they announced themselves to the world.

It was a PR move that

1) their agents thought of doing
2) being young and stupid can also play a part


Everyone probably loved James before those PR moves. This is the only reason why people hate him as much. I think bringing up the personal stats don't bother people too much but for the previous reason/ argument is probably why.

bucketss
06-16-2014, 10:45 AM
Of course, it's never Lebrons fault. How could I be so cruel and mean

maybe if you dropped some facts or something, idk why someone would waste a detailed post on a poster like you.

koreancabbage
06-16-2014, 10:45 AM
Of course, it's never Lebrons fault. How could I be so cruel and mean

Its not entirely his fault. I didn't say it was never him. its not being cruel and mean, its being in context and thinking/watching what actually happened during the series.

Spurs were the better team, better coached team, better disciplined team.

edit:
OH, whoever says Lebron choked, was surely expecting the Heat to win then. I mean- thats the only reason why they would say Lebron choked. You, my friend, must have been cheering for the Heat.

DaBear
06-16-2014, 10:47 AM
Of course, it's never Lebrons fault. How could I be so cruel and mean

maybe if you dropped some facts or something, idk why someone would waste a detailed post on a poster like you.

Here's facts:

He's 2-3 in the finals
His team suffered the worst point margin defeat in history
He said it would be easy when he joined the heat

Not going to waste my time with Lebron dick riders who pull every excuse out of the book for him. He's got a long way to go before being in top 5 all time talks.

raiderfaninTX
06-16-2014, 10:48 AM
Here's facts:

He's 2-3 in the finals
His team suffered the worst point margin defeat in history
He said it would be easy when he joined the heat

Not going to waste my time with Lebron dick riders who pull every excuse out of the book for him. He's got a long way to go before being in top 5 all time talks.

lol, that's a joke post bro

bucketss
06-16-2014, 10:50 AM
Here's facts:

He's 2-3 in the finals
His team suffered the worst point margin defeat in history
He said it would be easy when he joined the heat

Not going to waste my time with Lebron dick riders who pull every excuse out of the book for him. He's got a long way to go before being in top 5 all time talks.

okay thanks, maybe now we can have serious discussion on this thread . Cya

koreancabbage
06-16-2014, 10:51 AM
Here's facts:

He's 2-3 in the finals
His team suffered the worst point margin defeat in history
He said it would be easy when he joined the heat

Not going to waste my time with Lebron dick riders who pull every excuse out of the book for him. He's got a long way to go before being in top 5 all time talks.

but you say Lebron choked - you must have been wanting Lebron to win this entire time.

IKnowHoops
06-16-2014, 02:00 PM
Why do you keep bumping this crap thread that's been buried for half a month? Lol. We get it Lebron has a good per. He earned fluffy stats in a lot of garbage minutes. Cool.

So mad

IKnowHoops
06-16-2014, 02:01 PM
Lol.

So dangle

IKnowHoops
06-16-2014, 02:07 PM
Here's facts:

He's 2-3 in the finals
His team suffered the worst point margin defeat in history
He said it would be easy when he joined the heat

Not going to waste my time with Lebron dick riders who pull every excuse out of the book for him. He's got a long way to go before being in top 5 all time talks.

Yet he was by far the best player in the playoffs still. How can it be his fault if he is the best player in the playoffs. Doesn't it make more sense to look at his HOF teammates that got outplayed by the Spurs 10th man. You sound ignorant. Just spewing hatred for someone your jealous of. It funny. You must hate gold and ice-cream to because its good.

gangis2169
06-16-2014, 02:42 PM
Yet he was by far the best player in the playoffs still. How can it be his fault if he is the best player in the playoffs. Doesn't it make more sense to look at his HOF teammates that got outplayed by the Spurs 10th man. You sound ignorant. Just spewing hatred for someone your jealous of. It funny. You must hate gold and ice-cream to because its good.

I wonder if anyone actually realized that everyone's gameplan was to let Lebron so what he wanted one on one and not double team cause that's how the Heat are efficient. That is why the Heat lost let Lebron go wild the rest of them when defended could not be effective. If you really know basketball those stats are inflated cause Lebron wasn't the issue it was the rest of the team . Spurs marginalized Lebron by putting a good defender on him that did not need a double thus leaving the other defenders on there men cutting off all his passing lanes. Sad that people actually think Lebron was great during the finals.

bucketss
06-16-2014, 02:50 PM
I wonder if anyone actually realized that everyone's gameplan was to let Lebron so what he wanted one on one and not double team cause that's how the Heat are efficient. That is why the Heat lost let Lebron go wild the rest of them when defended could not be effective. If you really know basketball those stats are inflated cause Lebron wasn't the issue it was the rest of the team . Spurs marginalized Lebron by putting a good defender on him that did not need a double thus leaving the other defenders on there men cutting off all his passing lanes. Sad that people actually think Lebron was great during the finals.

uhh so the spurs made them miss open threes and layups?

gangis2169
06-16-2014, 03:04 PM
uhh so the spurs made them miss open threes and layups?

???? What game series were you watching? The Spurs were excellent on defense there wasn't a lot of open looks. But if you say so.

bucketss
06-16-2014, 03:09 PM
???? What game series were you watching? The Spurs were excellent on defense there wasn't a lot of open looks. But if you say so.

the whole team was missing easy shots around the rim they usually make, funny thing about ur post is you make it seem lebron did anything wrong, if they're closing his passing lanes and letting him go crazy isn't that what lebron is suppose to do? take what the spurs give him? is it his fault the rest of the team can't buy a basket or is lebron suppose to spoon feed every single bucket? lebron had a great individual finals but his teamates let him down #fact.

IKnowHoops
06-16-2014, 03:13 PM
I wonder if anyone actually realized that everyone's gameplan was to let Lebron so what he wanted one on one and not double team cause that's how the Heat are efficient. That is why the Heat lost let Lebron go wild the rest of them when defended could not be effective. If you really know basketball those stats are inflated cause Lebron wasn't the issue it was the rest of the team . Spurs marginalized Lebron by putting a good defender on him that did not need a double thus leaving the other defenders on there men cutting off all his passing lanes. Sad that people actually think Lebron was great during the finals.

Everytime born finished at the rim there were two and three defenders there collapsing. Inflated stats? Sad post buddy.

bucketss
06-16-2014, 03:16 PM
Everytime born finished at the rim there were two and three defenders there collapsing. Inflated stats? Sad post buddy.

lmao exactly they defended him like last year except the didn't go under the screen to force him to shoot. they kept the paint tight

gangis2169
06-16-2014, 03:33 PM
Lol you two are delusional. As most fans are. I never said it was Lebrons fault. I just said what the game plan was. we all get it Lebrons the best ok we got it. But when you look at how the game was played and how Pop even described it then it became simple. Leave lebron one on one till he gets to the rim where the nearby defenders could collapse. This was all Spo's fault for not switching up his game plan. For you both to actually think they had wide open shots all series sums it it.

IKnowHoops
06-16-2014, 03:40 PM
Lol you two are delusional. As most fans are. I never said it was Lebrons fault. I just said what the game plan was. we all get it Lebrons the best ok we got it. But when you look at how the game was played and how Pop even described it then it became simple. Leave lebron one on one till he gets to the rim where the nearby defenders could collapse. This was all Spo's fault for not switching up his game plan. For you both to actually think they had wide open shots all series sums it it.

For you to think Brons stats are inflated sums you up. Don't know shishscaBob.