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COOLbeans
05-07-2014, 05:57 PM
Duncan is an all time great player. But his personality probably hasn't hyped his brand all the much.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-07-2014, 06:00 PM
Top12

COOLbeans
05-07-2014, 06:00 PM
I'd say he's a top 10 player and the best PF of all time

Jordan
Kareem
Chamberlain
Magic
Russell
Bird
Shaq
Robertson
Duncan
Kobe

11. Lebron, Thomas, Dr. J, Stockton, unknown?

Duncan makes my top 10

TrueFan420
05-07-2014, 06:04 PM
Top ten and agree I'd take him over Kobe as well

beyourself
05-07-2014, 06:08 PM
I have him as the top post Jordan player and the top player that I've ever seen.

COOLbeans
05-07-2014, 06:09 PM
Top ten and agree I'd take him over Kobe as well

They're the two best of our generation. Funny it didn't start out that way. There were a lot of great players during that era.

tredigs
05-07-2014, 06:10 PM
Thomas?? I'd have Hakeem, Barkley and Jerry West easily ahead of him. 5 or 10 others as well. Agree with the top ten, but with LeBron over Kobe at 11.

beyourself
05-07-2014, 06:11 PM
They're the two best of our generation. Funny it didn't start out that way. There were a lot of great players during that era.

You have to include Shaq in that discussion.

COOLbeans
05-07-2014, 06:13 PM
Thomas?? I'd have Hakeem, Barkley and Jerry West easily ahead of him. 5 or 10 others as well. Agree with the top ten, but with LeBron over Kobe at 11.

Yeah I just threw the last guys in without thinking about it. Hakeem is probably 11th on that list

Hawkeye15
05-07-2014, 06:13 PM
Top 8 ever

COOLbeans
05-07-2014, 06:14 PM
You have to include Shaq in that discussion.

And Shaq since he's ahead of those guys..

TrueFan420
05-07-2014, 06:17 PM
Top 8 ever

Not that I disagree but could I see your top 8

COOLbeans
05-07-2014, 06:17 PM
Top 8 ever

I have him 9th. Who do you put him ahead of on my list?

Jordan
Kareem
Chamberlain
Magic
Russell
Bird
Shaq
Robertson
Duncan
Kobe

ATX
05-07-2014, 06:18 PM
Easily in my top 10. A true all time great.

abe_froman
05-07-2014, 06:20 PM
I'd say he's a top 10 player and the best PF of all time

Jordan
Kareem
Chamberlain
Magic
Russell
Bird
Shaq
Robertson
Duncan
Kobe

11. Lebron, Thomas, Dr. J, Stockton, unknown?

Duncan makes my top 10
top 10 for sure

...and thomas and stockton? wow,they are way down the list,i'd have guys like hakeem,moses,kg,havlicek,dirk,west,ect. over both of them

Hawkeye15
05-07-2014, 06:22 PM
Not that I disagree but could I see your top 8

MJ
KAJ
Wilt

these 3 never move on my list. The next 5, depends on how I feel that day:

Shaq
Magic
Duncan
Hakeem
LeBron

rounding out my top 10 are probably Kobe, and Russell, in that order for me.

mngopher35
05-07-2014, 06:23 PM
Top 10, I think probably about 7th overall. I have Shaq over him so not the best since Jordan but Duncan has had an amazing career.

Chronz
05-07-2014, 06:46 PM
co-sign Top8 talk.

mdm692
05-07-2014, 06:49 PM
Easily top 10. He's an excellent example of consistency and longevity. 1 more ring would put him near the top 5 IMO.

LoveMeOrHateMe
05-07-2014, 07:03 PM
Between 7-9 all time behind Kobe but ahead of Shaq Kobe is arguably top 5

LoveMeOrHateMe
05-07-2014, 07:04 PM
MJ
KAJ
Wilt

these 3 never move on my list. The next 5, depends on how I feel that day:

Shaq
Magic
Duncan
Hakeem
LeBron

rounding out my top 10 are probably Kobe, and Russell, in that order for me.

Lebron Hakeem Shaq ahead of Kobe lol

amos1er
05-07-2014, 07:05 PM
MJ
KAJ
Wilt

these 3 never move on my list. The next 5, depends on how I feel that day:

Shaq
Magic
Duncan
Hakeem
LeBron

rounding out my top 10 are probably Kobe, and Russell, in that order for me.

No Larry Bird in your top ten. Geez Louise.

Magic deserves to be ahead of KAJ and Wilt. Magic straight dominated an entire decade and changed the game. He also saved the game... Along with Larry Bird.

Lebron in the top ten??? I just don't get how that's possible after what took place in the 2011 finals. Put any guy from the 11-20 spot in place of James that year and the Heat win the title. Additionally, any guy from the 11-20 spot in their primes could have won titles with the same supporting cast and lack of competition James had in both 2012 & 2013. The only place I agree with you on is MJ @ number one and Russell @ number ten.

Oh and Duncan @ number eight.

amos1er
05-07-2014, 07:10 PM
1. MJ
2. Magic
3. Kareem
4. Wilt
5. Shaq
6. Kobe
7. Bird
8. Duncan
9. Hakeem
10. Russell

amos1er
05-07-2014, 07:13 PM
Double post.

naps
05-07-2014, 07:17 PM
Jordan
Kareem
Wilt
Shaq
Magic
Duncan
LeBron
Hakeem
Big O
Bird
Russell
Moses

Probably my top 12.

Bostonjorge
05-07-2014, 07:17 PM
MJ
Wilt
Magic
KAJ
Kobe
Bird
Shaq
Duncan
Oscar
Dream

Duncan and kobe can move up with every record they break and rings they add. Also individual accomplishments that come there way.

amos1er
05-07-2014, 07:19 PM
Easily top 10. He's an excellent example of consistency and longevity. 1 more ring would put him near the top 5 IMO.

Top five would be a stretch, but I would move him up a spot or two.

amos1er
05-07-2014, 07:21 PM
Edit.

JEDean89
05-07-2014, 07:21 PM
A lot of people underrate Russell, the dude would be a freak in the league today especially the modern training, shoes and nutrition.

MJ
KAJ
Wilt
Shaq
Russell
Magic
Duncan
Kobe
Hakeem
Lebron (who has passed Bird no disrespect, he also passes Kobe and Hakeem with another finals MVP).

had duncan won last year's chip, which they were a Kawhi Leonard FT away from doing, he becomes better than Magic. Duncan has had a beautiful career that every star dreams of. He has had one team, one coach, came into a team that already had solid pieces around him, has had the best GM in the game constantly surround him with talent. Most importantly is that he has a head coach, a gm and ownership who are all on the same page. i can't stress enough to people wondering why playoff coaches keep getting fired what that means. he is an extension of Greg Popovich on the floor, if every team had that, we would have a far better brand of basketball.

amos1er
05-07-2014, 07:23 PM
Jordan
Kareem
Wilt
Shaq
Magic
Duncan
LeBron
Hakeem
Big O
Bird
Russell
Moses

Probably my top 12.

Wow! That is easily one of the worst lists I have ever seen. No disrespect of course.

amos1er
05-07-2014, 07:25 PM
A lot of people underrate Russell, the dude would be a freak in the league today especially the modern training, shoes and nutrition.

MJ
KAJ
Wilt
Shaq
Russell
Magic
Duncan
Kobe
Hakeem
Lebron (who has passed Bird no disrespect, he also passes Kobe and Hakeem with another finals MVP).

had duncan won last year's chip, which they were a Kawhi Leonard FT away from doing, he becomes better than Magic. Duncan has had a beautiful career that every star dreams of. He has had one team, one coach, came into a team that already had solid pieces around him, has had the best GM in the game constantly surround him with talent. Most importantly is that he has a head coach, a gm and ownership who are all on the same page. i can't stress enough to people wondering why playoff coaches keep getting fired what that means. he is an extension of Greg Popovich on the floor, if every team had that, we would have a far better brand of basketball.

How on earth can you justify Lebron passing Bird?!?

JasonJohnHorn
05-07-2014, 07:25 PM
I'm going with Duncan = GOAT

amos1er
05-07-2014, 07:27 PM
People who have Lebron James in their top ten = smokes crack.

todu82
05-07-2014, 07:30 PM
Among my top 10-15 players ever.

amos1er
05-07-2014, 07:30 PM
MJ
Wilt
Magic
KAJ
Kobe
Bird
Shaq
Duncan
Oscar
Dream

Duncan and kobe can move up with every record they break and rings they add. Also individual accomplishments that come there way.

Nice list. I might change Magic and Wilt though.

PurpleLynch
05-07-2014, 07:40 PM
A spot in my top 10 is a duty,he's the best power forward that ever touched a Nba's court,even if I prefere to do a top 20,since there are at least 10 other players who can/will be in the top 10,like James,Dr J,West,Robertson and the list goes on.Magic,Jordan,Kareem,Bird,Chamberlain,Shaq,Hakee m,Duncan,Russell,Kobe is my top 10 though,no particular order,just basic things,like MJ ahead of Kobe for example(Reminder:Kobe is my favourite player of all time,that doesn't mean he's the greatest,just don't start a war over my comment)

5ass
05-07-2014, 07:46 PM
I have him 8th as well. Hakeem, Kareem, wilt, and Shaq are the only big men above him IMO. Magic, mj, and lbj are the others. He definitely passed Kobe though. Theres no way I draft Kobe over Duncan to build my team.

Chronz
05-07-2014, 07:52 PM
Are we just gonna fling insults at each others list or is anyone gonna offer some reasoning to why their list is superior?

Bostonjorge
05-07-2014, 07:53 PM
A spot in my top 10 is a duty,he's the best power forward that ever touched a Nba's court,even if I prefere to do a top 20,since there are at least 10 other players who can/will be in the top 10,like James,Dr J,West,Robertson and the list goes on.Magic,Jordan,Kareem,Bird,Chamberlain,Shaq,Hakee m,Duncan,Russell,Kobe is my top 10 though,no particular order,just basic things,like MJ ahead of Kobe for example(Reminder:Kobe is my favourite player of all time,that doesn't mean he's the greatest,just don't start a war over my comment)

Kobe's career is not over and no one knows how long or who will be on his future teams. Kobe will past jordan with most playoff points ever and if he catches KAJ most points ever and adds 2 more rings then he has more accomplishments than any other player listed so far. He can play at a current Duncan type level for a couple more years. We will see.

Shammyguy3
05-07-2014, 08:14 PM
Jordan
Kareem
Hakeem
Wilt
Shaq
Magic
Duncan
Lebron
Bird
Russell
Kobe
Oscar
Moses

That's my top-13 for me, and i have him 7th. The next group of guys are in a different tier and round out the top-20 (West, Robinson, K. Malone, Erving, Garnett, Barkley, Dirk)

Hawkeye15
05-07-2014, 08:22 PM
People who have Lebron James in their top ten = smokes crack.

yeah, no, we get it dude. You are not a LeBron fan. You have made that very clear in your tenure.

If you don't like LeBron in your top 10, good for you. His resume has already been built to argue against your viewpoint. Either way, the rankings are subjective. No need to get your panties in a bunch about them. I prefer LeBron all time over Kobe and Russell, who round out my top 10. So?

Hawkeye15
05-07-2014, 08:26 PM
Are we just gonna fling insults at each others list or is anyone gonna offer some reasoning to why their list is superior?

this is PSD dude, cmon. You know every thread that mentions two specific players eventually turns into those homer fan bases arguing and killing the thread. Period.

But, to answer your question, outside MJ/Magic/LeBron, my top 8 list is littered with the best bigs of all time. Guys I thought have more impact than a Kobe, Robertson, or Bird. My top 3 never move. My next 5 I can live with an argument, if well presented, that they can slide anywhere, except I think LeBron is kinda set in stone at #8 for me, until he gets another few years under his belt, in which case he may very well join my cemented group up top.

I respect Kobe's longevity, but question his absolute peak against these other guys we are listing. I also respect Russell's incredible defense, and prowess for winning, but consider his lack of offense against these other guys we are listing.

Hawkeye15
05-07-2014, 08:28 PM
Kobe's career is not over and no one knows how long or who will be on his future teams. Kobe will past jordan with most playoff points ever and if he catches KAJ most points ever and adds 2 more rings then he has more accomplishments than any other player listed so far. He can play at a current Duncan type level for a couple more years. We will see.

Unfortunately for Kobe, his team will likely suck again next year (by Laker standards), and they won't be that competitive his last 2 years in the league. If he ends up staying after that, are we really going to give him more credit to a contending team when he will probably be a shell of himself?

Kobe's legacy is set. And it's a nice one...

naps
05-07-2014, 08:30 PM
People who have Lebron James in their top ten = smokes crack.

Says the guy who is fine with Kobe with in top 5 LMFAO! Your only vendetta is LeBron. You sleep, drink, eat, and live LeBron man. Too obsessed with him. Not healthy.

COOLbeans
05-07-2014, 09:10 PM
Hakeem and Lebron are right out of the top 10 for me. But I don't mind seeing them on the list

jerellh528
05-07-2014, 10:21 PM
Mj
Kaj
Magic
Wilt
Shaq
Kobe
Duncan
Bird
Russell
Hakeem

amos1er
05-07-2014, 10:34 PM
Says the guy who is fine with Kobe with in top 5 LMFAO! Your only vendetta is LeBron. You sleep, drink, eat, and live LeBron man. Too obsessed with him. Not healthy.

Lol. You obviously didn't even read my list because I didn't have Kobe in my top five.

amos1er
05-07-2014, 10:35 PM
Mj
Kaj
Magic
Wilt
Shaq
Kobe
Duncan
Bird
Russell
Hakeem

A fine list. Almost identical to mine.

amos1er
05-07-2014, 10:39 PM
Are we just gonna fling insults at each others list or is anyone gonna offer some reasoning to why their list is superior?

Lol. Flinging insults is fine for now. I gave my reasoning as to why LBJ is not top ten in a previous post. I'll give it again... Swap any player from the top 11-20 spots and they could have won equal to more rings with James' stacked squad and inferior competition. In 2011, any player from the top 11-20 spots would have won that Dallas series in place of Lebron James. They surely would have had better performances.

Chronz
05-07-2014, 10:54 PM
Lol. Flinging insults is fine for now. I gave my reasoning as to why LBJ is not top ten in a previous post. I'll give it again... Swap any player from the top 11-20 spots and they could have won equal to more rings with James' stacked squad and inferior competition. In 2011, any player from the top 11-20 spots would have won that Dallas series in place of Lebron James. They surely would have had better performances.
Not just talking Bron here but I applaud you for at least defending your list.

But equal to OR more essentially means a 3-peat, which I dont think all of the players ranked 11-100 could accomplish easily. Like how do you come up with this stuff? We've already seen those other guys fail at some point in there careers, Bron is not unique in that regard.

Real quick, gimme your top 20 and Ill see if I can alter your viewpoint in any way.

mightybosstone
05-07-2014, 11:06 PM
I think you could make a case for him as high as 4 and as low as 10-12, but he's certainly an all-time great and unquestionably the greatest PF in the history of the NBA. Here's my top 15 to provide some perspective:

1. SG Michael Jordan
2. C Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. PG Magic Johnson
4. SF Lebron James
5. PF Tim Duncan
6. C Bill Russell
7. C Wilt Chamberlain
8. C Hakeem Olajuwon
9. C Shaquille O'Neal
10. SF Larry Bird
11. SG Kobe Bryant
12. PG Oscar Robertson
13. SG Jerry West
14. C Moses Malone
15. SFJulius Erving

AsianSensation
05-07-2014, 11:08 PM
Top 10 all time.

jerellh528
05-07-2014, 11:09 PM
I think you could make a case for him as high as 4 and as low as 10-12, but he's certainly an all-time great and unquestionably the greatest PF in the history of the NBA. Here's my top 15 to provide some perspective:

1. SG Michael Jordan
2. C Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. PG Magic Johnson
4. SF Lebron James
5. PF Tim Duncan
6. C Bill Russell
7. C Wilt Chamberlain
8. C Hakeem Olajuwon
9. C Shaquille O'Neal
10. SF Larry Bird
11. SG Kobe Bryant
12. PG Oscar Robertson
13. SG Jerry West
14. C Moses Malone
15. SFJulius Erving

Your list is.....interesting.

5ass
05-07-2014, 11:38 PM
Not just talking Bron here but I applaud you for at least defending your list.

But equal to OR more essentially means a 3-peat, which I dont think all of the players ranked 11-100 could accomplish easily. Like how do you come up with this stuff? We've already seen those other guys fail at some point in there careers, Bron is not unique in that regard.

Real quick, gimme your top 20 and Ill see if I can alter your viewpoint in any way.

You're better off trying to debate with a ******** brick wall.

Hawkeye15
05-07-2014, 11:44 PM
I think you could make a case for him as high as 4 and as low as 10-12, but he's certainly an all-time great and unquestionably the greatest PF in the history of the NBA. Here's my top 15 to provide some perspective:

1. SG Michael Jordan
2. C Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. PG Magic Johnson
4. SF Lebron James
5. PF Tim Duncan
6. C Bill Russell
7. C Wilt Chamberlain
8. C Hakeem Olajuwon
9. C Shaquille O'Neal
10. SF Larry Bird
11. SG Kobe Bryant
12. PG Oscar Robertson
13. SG Jerry West
14. C Moses Malone
15. SFJulius Erving

curious, why do you rate Wilt so low? At least by my opinion? I also think Russell is a few spots too high.

naps
05-07-2014, 11:46 PM
Lol. You obviously didn't even read my list because I didn't have Kobe in my top five.

The other poster who put kobe at 5 you said it was a very fine list but you have problem with everyone who has LeBron in their top 10. Man, what's wrong with you? Everyone and their mom here know exactly how much you hate LeBron. Your opinion on LeBron doesn't count on this board even if you are making a valid point because you made it like it with your history of posting on LeBron. When are you gonna get it?

mightybosstone
05-08-2014, 12:13 AM
Your list is.....interesting.


curious, why do you rate Wilt so low? At least by my opinion? I also think Russell is a few spots too high.

My list is pretty consistent from 1-5 and from 10-15 almost always. It's those 6-9 guys I have a problem with because they all played the same position. I have a hard time putting Wilt ahead of Russell when Russell dominated him so much in the postseason and clearly owned his era more. And then there's the 95 Rockets crushing Shaq's Magic.

To me, the 1-3 guys are locks and the next 7-8 guys are really, really hard to judge. They're pretty much interchangeable depending on what barometers you're using on a given day. And it makes it especially hard to judge those centers, because you could make a strong case for any of them to be the second best center in the league's history. Statistical dominance? Wilt. Postseason prowess? Russell. Overall versatility? Hakeem. Ridiculous offensive efficiency? Shaq.

FlashBolt
05-08-2014, 12:14 AM
Kobe is definitely top 5. When you look at what he has achieved, it's definitely something special. I don't think Bill is top 10 but just off rings, I can see why someone would include him. He's not top 10 imo. Duncan would be somewhere around Shaq/Hakeem. 6-8 spot would be cool for him.

1) Jordan
2) KAJ
3) Magic
4) Kobe
5) Wilt
6) Shaq
7) Hakeem
8) Duncan
9) James
10) Bird

Of course, if James can win 2 rings, I think I'll have him just over Wilt.

Hawkeye15
05-08-2014, 12:18 AM
My list is pretty consistent from 1-5 and from 10-15 almost always. It's those 6-9 guys I have a problem with because they all played the same position. I have a hard time putting Wilt ahead of Russell when Russell dominated him so much in the postseason and clearly owned his era more. And then there's the 95 Rockets crushing Shaq's Magic.

To me, the 1-3 guys are locks and the next 7-8 guys are really, really hard to judge. They're pretty much interchangeable depending on what barometers you're using on a given day. And it makes it especially hard to judge those centers, because you could make a strong case for any of them to be the second best center in the league's history. Statistical dominance? Wilt. Postseason prowess? Russell. Overall versatility? Hakeem. Ridiculous offensive efficiency? Shaq.

I have a pretty consistent list as well, it just differs from yours slightly.

MJ
KAJ
Wilt

they are not moving from my top 3 until LeBron gets another 3-5 years under him.

Magic
Shaq
Duncan
Hakeem
LeBron

my next 5, in any order you would like.

Kobe
Russell

Rounds out my top 10.

I just think Wilt is such a specimen, and dominated so much (and still would), he deserved to be higher where you put him. I also think Russell's complete offensive holes that can't be ignored.

mngopher35
05-08-2014, 12:34 AM
I have a pretty consistent list as well, it just differs from yours slightly.

MJ
KAJ
Wilt

they are not moving from my top 3 until LeBron gets another 3-5 years under him.

Magic
Shaq
Duncan
Hakeem
LeBron

my next 5, in any order you would like.

Kobe
Russell

Rounds out my top 10.

I just think Wilt is such a specimen, and dominated so much (and still would), he deserved to be higher where you put him. I also think Russell's complete offensive holes that can't be ignored.

I like the tiers, but Lebron, Kobe, Russell, and Bird would all be in my final tier. If I had to knock one out I think it would be Russell before Bird, so Bird would be in the top 10. That being said I can't claim to have watched Russell with my own eyes or anything so I may have some bias due to having seen more Bird and my Russell opinion being based on statistics/stories/very limited film etc.

Hawkeye15
05-08-2014, 12:36 AM
I like the tiers, but Lebron, Kobe, Russell, and Bird would all be in my final tier. If I had to knock one out I think it would be Russell before Bird, so Bird would be in the top 10. That being said I can't claim to have watched Russell with my own eyes or anything so I may have some bias due to having seen more Bird and my Russell opinion being based on statistics/stories/very limited film etc.

Bird just had such a shortened career per say. I think he was amazing many years, but he also had injury issues. Otherwise, he would be higher.

mightybosstone
05-08-2014, 12:59 AM
Your list is.....interesting.


I have a pretty consistent list as well, it just differs from yours slightly.

MJ
KAJ
Wilt

they are not moving from my top 3 until LeBron gets another 3-5 years under him.

Magic
Shaq
Duncan
Hakeem
LeBron

my next 5, in any order you would like.

Kobe
Russell

Rounds out my top 10.

I just think Wilt is such a specimen, and dominated so much (and still would), he deserved to be higher where you put him. I also think Russell's complete offensive holes that can't be ignored.

I think you're giving Wilt WAY too much credit. Consider his era for a second and not just for his statistical ridiculousness, which he obviously wouldn't be able to repeat in today's game. Just think about this. Suppose you have Player X and Player Y in today's NBA. Player X puts up ridiculous statistical numbers but gets owned by Player Y every single time the two meet in the playoffs. Player X owns the stats, but Player Y wins an unprecedented number of rings and is considered the greatest defensive player of his era by a wide margin.

Player X in today's era would be absolutely crucified and Player Y would be praised as an all-time great. Just imagine all the crap Lebron still gets after four MVPs and two rings and imagine the absolute hell that Player X would endure in today's society. Now let's remind ourselves that Player X is Wilt and Player Y is Russell. Does it still seem fair to put Wilt at 3 and Russell at 10?

mngopher35
05-08-2014, 01:33 AM
Bird just had such a shortened career per say. I think he was amazing many years, but he also had injury issues. Otherwise, he would be higher.

Ya I understand that. I still think that him and Magic were a huge part of the league evolving and we all know about those early Celtics teams being extremely talented (not saying his winning isn't impressive, just take it with context). Bird's overall game was so good that I think even with the shortened career he deserves to be in that tier (still managed 7,000 more points, 1,000 more assists and we know about pace difference). Obviously what Russell brought with Defense, Rebounding and intangibles was elite (as in arguably the best) but Bird was good on that end, and elite where Russell was below average. Especially for a list like this, where is the next player on all time ranks who didn't really have much of an offensive game? Russell played 13 years and Bird had about 9 at a certain level and another 4 with a drop off so it isn't like Russell had a gigantic longevity gap.

One thing I consider that others might not is who I would pick to start a team knowing their careers (not necessarily saying same career path in terms of titles, but what they would be bringing talent/production wise each year). I think that Bird would be the player I pick here as there are more players in the leagues history capable of bringing near the defense and rebounding while few who can bring the elite combo of scoring volume, efficiency, and passing. As I said I could be underestimating Russell as I have seen very little of him. I generally don't just count rings when ranking either which might hurt him with me compared to others.

It is close when we are talking one or two ranks difference all time, but that is my opinion on the matter. I agreed with your tiers more than many others I have seen, just would have a couple slight adjustments (once again not a knock on anyone as generally the lists are similar). If I am missing things or you want to discuss this I am definitely open and it is possible to change my opinion as there are likely things I haven't looked into or am missing. Like I said my judgments are on limited info and tape of Russell.

mngopher35
05-08-2014, 01:44 AM
I think you're giving Wilt WAY too much credit. Consider his era for a second and not just for his statistical ridiculousness, which he obviously wouldn't be able to repeat in today's game. Just think about this. Suppose you have Player X and Player Y in today's NBA. Player X puts up ridiculous statistical numbers but gets owned by Player Y every single time the two meet in the playoffs. Player X owns the stats, but Player Y wins an unprecedented number of rings and is considered the greatest defensive player of his era by a wide margin.

Player X in today's era would be absolutely crucified and Player Y would be praised as an all-time great. Just imagine all the crap Lebron still gets after four MVPs and two rings and imagine the absolute hell that Player X would endure in today's society. Now let's remind ourselves that Player X is Wilt and Player Y is Russell. Does it still seem fair to put Wilt at 3 and Russell at 10?

If we know that the player X is on a much less talented team then I would say it doesn't necessarily matter that his team lost. If player X was still out performing that player in their match-ups and it was the obviously better supporting cast making the difference (my understanding is Wilt was limited more by Russell but still put up the better numbers of the two). You can't compare it to Lebron James as that is a totally different topic within itself. Do you generally rank players on their individual impact or team performance? If it is based on individual impact for you then why can't Wilt be at 3 and Russell be at 10?

All-In
05-08-2014, 01:47 AM
Yea…I’m in the Russell over Wilt camp….I can’t get over the dominance of Russell over Wilt when the two met in the post season…..Wilt is a freak of nature…a physical specimen….but got outplayed and out worked by the smaller Russell…to say he would dominate this era is very misgiving

MJ
Magic
KAJ
Russell
Shaq
Wilt
Duncan
Hakeem
Bird
Bron
Moses
Kobe

FlashBolt
05-08-2014, 02:15 AM
Bill is so over-damn rated. What the hell... He doesn't have any offensive ability and was given a stacked squad. Heck, didn't he win a championship as a player-coach? What the hell is that?

amos1er
05-08-2014, 02:28 AM
Not just talking Bron here but I applaud you for at least defending your list.

But equal to OR more essentially means a 3-peat, which I dont think all of the players ranked 11-100 could accomplish easily. Like how do you come up with this stuff? We've already seen those other guys fail at some point in there careers, Bron is not unique in that regard.

Real quick, gimme your top 20 and Ill see if I can alter your viewpoint in any way.

I'm game. Though I will say that both Lebron and Wade are in my top 20 so it would be impossible to swap them out for each other on the 2011 Heat lol. For that matter, so is Dirk so it wouldn't be to prudent for him to play against himself either. That gives you seven names to work with essentially. Here goes...

11. West
12. Big O
13. Lebron
14. Moses
15. Dr. J
16. Karl
17. D-Rob
18. Dirk
19. Wade
20. Barkley

amos1er
05-08-2014, 02:32 AM
I believe that any of those names could have gotten the job done in 2011 in place of Lebron and or won two titles the following seasons. If healthy of course.

COOLbeans
05-08-2014, 02:32 AM
Bill is so over-damn rated. What the hell... He doesn't have any offensive ability and was given a stacked squad. Heck, didn't he win a championship as a player-coach? What the hell is that?


We get it you think Russell was overrated. Well i think he's a lock top 5 player so where can our two minds meet?

Russell played such a long time ago, I think we can only go off 3rd party sources. And the people who saw him say he was comparable to Wilt, Kareem and Hakeem.

slashsnake
05-08-2014, 02:47 AM
I think you're giving Wilt WAY too much credit. Consider his era for a second and not just for his statistical ridiculousness, which he obviously wouldn't be able to repeat in today's game. Just think about this. Suppose you have Player X and Player Y in today's NBA. Player X puts up ridiculous statistical numbers but gets owned by Player Y every single time the two meet in the playoffs. Player X owns the stats, but Player Y wins an unprecedented number of rings and is considered the greatest defensive player of his era by a wide margin.

Player X in today's era would be absolutely crucified and Player Y would be praised as an all-time great. Just imagine all the crap Lebron still gets after four MVPs and two rings and imagine the absolute hell that Player X would endure in today's society. Now let's remind ourselves that Player X is Wilt and Player Y is Russell. Does it still seem fair to put Wilt at 3 and Russell at 10?

Not really, it would be like crucifying Yao or Dirk for never beating the dream team in the Olympics. The Celtics had 9 hall of famers on that roster. 9! It was a league where half the talent was on one single team. Wilt nearly doubled Russel's scoring in the post-season. It was just that the rest of Russel's team outscored Wilt's by a lot so they won.

PowerHouse
05-08-2014, 03:16 AM
I'd say he's a top 10 player and the best PF of all time

Jordan
Kareem
Chamberlain
Magic
Russell
Bird
Shaq
Robertson
Duncan
Kobe

11. Lebron, Thomas, Dr. J, Stockton, unknown?

Duncan makes my top 10
Im sorry but there is no way in the world that Duncan gets ranked ahead of Kobe. That would be a nice thread for some interesting banter though, Kobe vs Duncan.

slashsnake
05-08-2014, 03:36 AM
Im sorry but there is no way in the world that Duncan gets ranked ahead of Kobe. That would be a nice thread for some interesting banter though, Kobe vs Duncan.

Oh I definitely would. What is that number... Something like Duncan has more 50 win seasons than all but three franchises in their histories?

I don't think that is just luck. No offense to Kobe whatsoever, I'll call him more talented, but on value to a team I will take the great 4/5 over the great perimeter player nearly every time and in this case. He gets the higher percentage shots and defends not just the bigs, but the guards who get by as well. He defends the high percentage shots, not the low percentage ones. He defends 5 guys in a game not one. I've seen Kobe lead a team without great bigs. You saw how that lack of an inside presence really hurt them. If you are going on talent. Sure Kobe edges him. But in greatness, I have to go with Duncan.

PowerHouse
05-08-2014, 03:50 AM
Oh I definitely would. What is that number... Something like Duncan has more 50 win seasons than all but three franchises in their histories?

I don't think that is just luck. No offense to Kobe whatsoever, I'll call him more talented, but on value to a team I will take the great 4/5 over the great perimeter player nearly every time and in this case. He gets the higher percentage shots and defends not just the bigs, but the guards who get by as well. He defends the high percentage shots, not the low percentage ones. He defends 5 guys in a game not one. I've seen Kobe lead a team without great bigs. You saw how that lack of an inside presence really hurt them. If you are going on talent. Sure Kobe edges him. But in greatness, I have to go with Duncan.

In talent its Kobe, in greatness its also Kobe. You brought up 50 win seasons? How significant is a 50 win season anyway? Plenty of teams in history have gone on to win the title without a 50 win regular season.

And according to your logic your top 5 players of all time would be without certain legends like Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson or Oscar Robertson because you "take the 4/5 over the perimeter". How much sense does that make? There is a certain pressure, weight and responsibility to being a primary ball handler and quarterback of a team that you apparently disregard.

Kaner
05-08-2014, 03:54 AM
How on earth can you justify Lebron passing Bird?!?

It's not even close

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=birdla01&y1=1992&p2=jamesle01&y2=2014

Lebron has him beat at everything other than rebounding and is a worlds better defender. Lebron even has him beat in career accolades at this point and he still has several years to go.

SPURSFAN1
05-08-2014, 03:56 AM
If Duncan and Lebron were in the draft and I had the number 1 pick. Duncan all day every day. If Lebron entered the league at the time of Duncan, he would have zero rings or MVP's. That's just my take.

SPURSFAN1
05-08-2014, 03:57 AM
Prime Lakers, Spurs, Mavs, Suns in the league of Duncan's prime career.

Hotone1401
05-08-2014, 04:03 AM
If Duncan and Lebron where in the draft and I had the number 1 pick. Duncan all day every day. If Lebron entered the league at the time of Duncan, he would have zero rings or MVP's. That's just my take.

But what if Duncan didn't have Tony Parker? I pretty much equate Duncan's success to TP as much as I do POP and their mutualistic relationship on the court to that of Stockton & Malone. I still don't think TP gets enough respect as he is consistently always competing for a championship and schooling every other PG in the league while in the postseason.

Look, Duncan is the best PF to every play and has been a rock for the spurs for so long now. I'm still amazed at his level play at this stage of his career but I dont see anytime in which I'd start a franchise by picking him over Lebron.

Kaner
05-08-2014, 04:07 AM
I guess I'll post my list too

Careers
1.) Jordan
2.) Kareem
3.) Wilt
4.) Russel
5.) Magic
6.) Duncan
7.) Shaq
8.) Kobe
9.) Lebron
10.) Bird

In terms of career I don't see how you can justify leaving Russel out of your top 5 6x MVP and 11x Champion is guaranteed one of the greatest careers of all-time

thats for careers though in terms of impact/ability then my list is almost identical to Hawkeyes's except Russell doesn't touch my top 10 and Magic isn't as impactful as Shaq, Lebron, Hakeem, or Duncan.

MJ
KAJ
Wilt

and then in any order

Shaq
Duncan
Hakeem
LeBron

then Kobe, Bird, Magic in any order.

SPURSFAN1
05-08-2014, 04:15 AM
But what if Duncan didn't have Tony Parker? I pretty much equate Duncan's success to TP as much as I do POP and their mutualistic relationship on the court to that of Stockton & Malone. I still don't think TP gets enough respect as he is consistently always competing for a championship and schooling every other PG in the league while in the postseason.

Look, Duncan is the best PF to every play and has been a rock for the spurs for so long now. I'm still amazed at his level play at this stage of his career but I dont see anytime in which I'd start a franchise by picking him over Lebron.

You're mistaking Prime Tony Parker and young tony parker. Prime tony parker is the best player on the spurs right now. He was just a good player early.

COOLbeans
05-08-2014, 04:18 AM
It's not even close

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=birdla01&y1=1992&p2=jamesle01&y2=2014

Lebron has him beat at everything other than rebounding and is a worlds better defender. Lebron even has him beat in career accolades at this point and he still has several years to go.

You have to account for Birds injuries. Dude was a transcendent player and he dominated his opponents. And Bird played against Far better players, with different rules during his era so it's hard to quantify. Lebron has shown weakness

Kaner
05-08-2014, 04:21 AM
If Duncan and Lebron were in the draft and I had the number 1 pick. Duncan all day every day. If Lebron entered the league at the time of Duncan, he would have zero rings or MVP's. That's just my take.

If we insert Lebron into the '97 draft with all of his hype and scouting reports that were all but declaring him the next MJ there is almost no chance that the Spurs(right or wrong) pick Duncan. Then we'd have a Lebron+Robinson combo that probably has a similiar amount of success to Duncan+Robinson and a Duncan who's next best player his rookie year is Kerry Kittles. His career very likely becomes KG in philly.

SPURSFAN1
05-08-2014, 04:26 AM
If we insert Lebron into the '97 draft with all of his hype and scouting reports that were all but declaring him the next MJ there is almost no chance that the Spurs(right or wrong) pick Duncan. Then we'd have a Lebron+Robinson combo that probably has a similiar amount of success to Duncan+Robinson and a Duncan who's next best player his rookie year is Kerry Kittles. His career very likely becomes KG in philly.

Gifted big men still got drafted higher than guards or small forwards. That's the way it's always been. Your chit don't stick.

Kaner
05-08-2014, 04:28 AM
You have to account for Birds injuries. Dude was a transcendent player and he dominated his opponents. And Bird played against Far better players, with different rules during his era so it's hard to quantify. Lebron has shown weakness

Sorry not buying it, all of the top 10 players are transcendent that's just a part of the territory. And Bird did not play against far better players either the league probably has more talent today then it ever has before. It's a fact that Birds best seasons just can't stack up head to head with Lebron's even when he was healthy.

Kaner
05-08-2014, 04:30 AM
Gifted big men still got drafted higher than guards or small forwards. That's the way it's always been. Your chit don't stick.

Not when you have a top 5 big men already and the wings the most hyped prospect of all-time. my chit does infact stick.

SPURSFAN1
05-08-2014, 04:31 AM
Not when you have a top 5 big men already and the wings the most hyped prospect of all-time. my chit does infact stick.

An injured top 5 big man? Lol. Sorry man it doesn't.

mngopher35
05-08-2014, 04:47 AM
In talent its Kobe, in greatness its also Kobe. You brought up 50 win seasons? How significant is a 50 win season anyway? Plenty of teams in history have gone on to win the title without a 50 win regular season.

And according to your logic your top 5 players of all time would be without certain legends like Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson or Oscar Robertson because you "take the 4/5 over the perimeter". How much sense does that make? There is a certain pressure, weight and responsibility to being a primary ball handler and quarterback of a team that you apparently disregard.

First of all there was a thread on this a while ago if you want to search the archives. Overall I believe Duncan got more support but it was pretty close.

Now on to the argument. There is also a certain weight to anchoring an elite defense which Duncan does that maybe you are disregarding. This is something that Kobe cannot match due to his size/position. Even if we are comparing them guarding their own positions I would say Duncan is much more consistant and rarely plays the lazy take chances defense.

Offensively while Kobe certainly had a bigger role Duncan wasn't so far behind. He was able to work within an offensive system, get his points, and share the ball from the post. He also played a role in setting screens to get people open, ball movement, and drawing doubles in the post. With all of this he was able to score at a good rate and get solid assist numbers for a big man (over their careers Kobe averages 5.5 ppg more, 1.5 apg more, and Duncan has 6 rpg more). So while Kobe certainly brings the better impact defensively I think it is a very fair point that Duncan's ability to anchor elite defenses can overcome this offensive difference (to me the gap is much bigger on that end).

We can also go into advanced metrics where Duncan boasts a higher career PER, WS, and WS/48, Kobe leading slightly in TS%. The PER, TS% and WS/48 in the playoffs all slightly rise for Duncan in the playoffs and drop slightly for Kobe however (where he leads in all 3 and in total WS again). To be honest this doesn't seperate them much but it does nothing to make me believe that Duncan can't be considered more impactful. Also I don't know why you would just ignore that the teams Duncan have been on have had so many 50 win seasons, that certainly is an accomplishment. It shows his consistency and I believe it shows that his impact defensively is huge when it comes to winning (outside of until 2010 the lowest defensive rating the spurs had was 5th in the league, this is when age possibly started to kick in a bit but even still they have never been outside top 11 in the league).

Personally I rank accolades in the order of Finals MVP, MVP, total rings. Duncan leads in the first two while Kobe leads in the final one. Kobe was the 2nd option on 3 rings though which is much more important than a role player so it makes this comparison tougher in the accolades department. I give a very slight edge to Duncan again.

All in all it is actually a pretty close comparison. I do think Duncan should be rated higher overall though.

Kaner
05-08-2014, 04:51 AM
An injured top 5 big man? Lol. Sorry man it doesn't.


lol yeah because a broken foot is a career ending injury... that's a weak excuse and (I hope) you know it. Pairing a wing with a big-man at that point had ALOT more proven success then pairing a big-man with another big-man which Duncan-Robinson is still the only real example of. Am not going to get into a back and forth on a hypothetical. In the end the player that winds up on Philly ends up with less career success.

mngopher35
05-08-2014, 04:57 AM
An injured top 5 big man? Lol. Sorry man it doesn't.

There hasn't really been a player as hyped as Lebron coming into the draft. You can debate on if he would have been as well recognized coming out of high school maybe in 1997 but that is it. If the hype was anywhere near the same Lebron would have been the pick. What if instead he goes to the lakers though? Would Duncan have even won his first two titles? Would you still stand by your comment? Hypothetical's don't prove much...

I think that at this point I would probably take Lebron between the two. He hasn't passed him on my all time list yet but I believe he will get to that point by the end of his career so I would likely choose him in your comparison.

SPURSFAN1
05-08-2014, 05:09 AM
lol yeah because a broken foot is a career ending injury... that's a weak excuse and (I hope) you know it. Pairing a wing with a big-man at that point had ALOT more proven success then pairing a big-man with another big-man which Duncan-Robinson is still the only real example of. Am not going to get into a back and forth on a hypothetical. In the end the player that winds up on Philly ends up with less career success.

I think injuring his back took more from him than his broken foot. Anyways that's two major injuries.

SPURSFAN1
05-08-2014, 05:11 AM
There hasn't really been a player as hyped as Lebron coming into the draft. You can debate on if he would have been as well recognized coming out of high school maybe in 1997 but that is it. If the hype was anywhere near the same Lebron would have been the pick. What if instead he goes to the lakers though? Would Duncan have even won his first two titles? Would you still stand by your comment? Hypothetical's don't prove much...

I think that at this point I would probably take Lebron between the two. He hasn't passed him on my all time list yet but I believe he will get to that point by the end of his career so I would likely choose him in your comparison.

Twin towers> high school prospect and injured star.

mngopher35
05-08-2014, 05:33 AM
You have to account for Birds injuries. Dude was a transcendent player and he dominated his opponents. And Bird played against Far better players, with different rules during his era so it's hard to quantify. Lebron has shown weakness

The injuries are what allow Lebron to pass him so early in his career actually. Lebron does handle him pretty good statistically as well. At this point Lebron has basically played like 1500 less minutes than Bird and those are basically a wash anyways as well since we know Bird wasn't the same at the end of his career (he already has more points and assists).

No doubt that 2011 was a bad year for Lebron but that doesn't knock out everything he has done. What about Bird in 83 vs. Milwaukee getting swept? In the 81 finals where he got a ring he averaged 15pp on under .500 TS%. Is that weakness, does that ring not count? While he played vs. far better teams you might want to also look into who he played with as well (Mchale, Johnson, Ainge, Parish with Bill Walton on the bench seems like they maybe are good enough to beat some tough teams).

So now that they both have shown "weakness" lets continue. I think that the argument for Bird and Lebron right now is actually pretty close as well, similar to Kobe Duncan. Lebron at this point is short a ring (although as pointed out above it wasn't necessarily a spectacular run by Bird to get it, worse than that Dallas series for Lebron but he was young so expectations differ). He does however have the advantage in MVP's so that could definitely make up for it (with Finals MVP's being tied).

Accolades are close, statistics favor Lebron, and I also think Defense favors Lebron as well. I don't see why it would be wrong to have Lebron ahead of him at this point.

mngopher35
05-08-2014, 05:36 AM
Twin towers> high school prospect and injured star.

ok ignore everything and write your opinion without an explanation. It is fine, like I said hypotheticals don't mean much. No need to argue about something that won't happen.

KnicksorBust
05-08-2014, 06:09 AM
5.

Mj
kaj
magic
kobe
duncan

DitchDat
05-08-2014, 06:29 AM
Best PF and definitely top-10 all-time.

arlubas
05-08-2014, 06:32 AM
One of the best ever and it's not even a debate anymore. His mind blowing longevity is the icing on the cake.

ManningToTyree
05-08-2014, 06:41 AM
Best power forward to ever play. Top 10 all time

kdspurman
05-08-2014, 07:59 AM
If we insert Lebron into the '97 draft with all of his hype and scouting reports that were all but declaring him the next MJ there is almost no chance that the Spurs(right or wrong) pick Duncan. Then we'd have a Lebron+Robinson combo that probably has a similiar amount of success to Duncan+Robinson and a Duncan who's next best player his rookie year is Kerry Kittles. His career very likely becomes KG in philly.

Eh, I disagree. SA looks at the person too, not just the player. I still think they'd pick Duncan, an established dominant big man, over a young high school player with the nick name "the king".

mightybosstone
05-08-2014, 09:44 AM
If we know that the player X is on a much less talented team then I would say it doesn't necessarily matter that his team lost. If player X was still out performing that player in their match-ups and it was the obviously better supporting cast making the difference (my understanding is Wilt was limited more by Russell but still put up the better numbers of the two).
But Wilt's the kind of guy who you question whether his stats sometimes came at the expense of his own teams. Like the year he attempted to lead the league in assists just to say he did it. That strikes me as an unbelievably arrogant, selfish way to play basketball. Rusell was the anti-Wilt, a guy who gave up his own statistical numbers for the sake of his team. Also, because we don't have the numbers for their playoff matchups, it's hard to know whether Wilt truly outperformed Russell or not.


can't compare it to Lebron James as that is a totally different topic within itself. Do you generally rank players on their individual impact or team performance? If it is based on individual impact for you then why can't Wilt be at 3 and Russell be at 10?
I generally rank them based on their individual performance, but I wasn't alive during the 60s and the game was different back then. It bothers me that Wilt played a huge chunk of his career in a league that had only 9 teams and only managed one title as an alpha dog. It bothers me that he was this insanely dominant force, yet he played for four different teams over his career. It bothers me that he played with West and Baylor at the end of Russell's career and only managed one title as the No. 3 offensive weapon in 72.

We can look back at the numbers, but I think we have to use more than just the numbers to judge a player's legacy. There has to be some kind of context behind those numbers.

mightybosstone
05-08-2014, 09:57 AM
Not really, it would be like crucifying Yao or Dirk for never beating the dream team in the Olympics. The Celtics had 9 hall of famers on that roster. 9! It was a league where half the talent was on one single team. Wilt nearly doubled Russel's scoring in the post-season. It was just that the rest of Russel's team outscored Wilt's by a lot so they won.

Was there 9? Name them all. Also, they weren't all on the roster at the same time, and you have to ask yourself whether those guys were Hall of Famers because of their individual merit or because they won a ton of titles playing with guys like Russell, Cousy, Jones and Havlicek. Also, look at Wilt's talent. That '66 Sixers team had Greer, Cunningham and Walker, all future Hall of Famers. And those Lakers teams were completely stacked with guys like West, Baylor, Goodrich and Hairston.

Were the Celtics more talented? Sure. But let's not pretend like Wilt was playing with a bunch of scrubs.

Chronz
05-08-2014, 11:34 AM
I'm game. Though I will say that both Lebron and Wade are in my top 20 so it would be impossible to swap them out for each other on the 2011 Heat lol. For that matter, so is Dirk so it wouldn't be to prudent for him to play against himself either. That gives you seven names to work with essentially. Here goes...

11. West
12. Big O
13. Lebron
14. Moses
15. Dr. J
16. Karl
17. D-Rob
18. Dirk
19. Wade
20. Barkley
Cool, I see not a single guy that could have pulled off 3 straight chips. I've seen you criticize Duncan for not even being able to defend his championship once (as if it were 1 on 1 or that it should happen for every champion) yet Im suppose to believe far inferior players who have let up before in their careers are able to pull off such a rare feat ?


As for your actual top-20, what are you valuing most? Seems to be all over the place to me.

Chronz
05-08-2014, 11:40 AM
Was there 9? Name them all. Also, they weren't all on the roster at the same time, and you have to ask yourself whether those guys were Hall of Famers because of their individual merit or because they won a ton of titles playing with guys like Russell, Cousy, Jones and Havlicek. Also, look at Wilt's talent. That '66 Sixers team had Greer, Cunningham and Walker, all future Hall of Famers. And those Lakers teams were completely stacked with guys like West, Baylor, Goodrich and Hairston.

Were the Celtics more talented? Sure. But let's not pretend like Wilt was playing with a bunch of scrubs.

I feel like you have a very distorted view of Wilt, and I blame Simmons for his one sided documentary of it. Since when do we not have the playoff numbers of Wilt and Russ? Everything you said here can apply to Wilt's teammates as well, they weren't all on the same teams and they certainly all weren't HOF'ers on their own.

Celtics always had more talent, the years Wilt did, he won in convincing fashion, as opposed to Wilt's undermanned teams pushing Russ's stacked squad to the limit. Baylor only had 1 good year with Wilt and it was under Butch the dunce so lets not just speak names. Lakers weren't completely stacked, those Sixers squad were actually far more talented, Wilt regreted leaving them, its a shame injuries took them out of the rematch series.

Wrigheyes4MVP
05-08-2014, 11:52 AM
Lebron is pretty much top ten at this point.... probably top 5.

Chronz
05-08-2014, 11:55 AM
But Wilt's the kind of guy who you question whether his stats sometimes came at the expense of his own teams. Like the year he attempted to lead the league in assists just to say he did it. That strikes me as an unbelievably arrogant, selfish way to play basketball. Rusell was the anti-Wilt, a guy who gave up his own statistical numbers for the sake of his team. Also, because we don't have the numbers for their playoff matchups, it's hard to know whether Wilt truly outperformed Russell or not.
When he was a scoring machine, it made a joke of team play, but Wilt did so at the behest of management, it was selfish but it was also a necessity. Wilt carried a different responsibility than almost all other players in history, he was carrying a fledgling league into respectability but he also showed a willingness to adapt/change his game for the sake of the team. Most people bring up Wilt's 50PPG season, what they never mention is how he altered his game right before the playoffs (at his coaches request), to become more of a decoy after establishing himself all year. It caught the Celtics off guard and its why his completely battered team was able to push a FAR superior Celtics team to the brink of elimination.

Wilt was selfish, but lots of greats were, and Wilt among those who can point to bad coaching and still following the orders of a loser coach, as he did when he subjugated his game for an undeserving Baylor. Wilt had his moments, like many greats, the regular season was something of a spectacle for him but he prioritized winning come playoff time.



I generally rank them based on their individual performance, but I wasn't alive during the 60s and the game was different back then. It bothers me that Wilt played a huge chunk of his career in a league that had only 9 teams and only managed one title as an alpha dog.
9 teams in an era with little player movement made it easier for the sole dominant organization to remain dominant, thus its actually impressive that he wound up with 2 as his teams best player. Dont really care about that alpha dog crap as much as actual performance.


It bothers me that he was this insanely dominant force, yet he played for four different teams over his career.
4? Can you name them? I count 3.


It bothers me that he played with West and Baylor at the end of Russell's career and only managed one title as the No. 3 offensive weapon in 72.
Blame Butch and unfortunate timing. Baylor was done by that point, Wilt was injured at another point and they never played together in their primes. Wilt still won a championship with one of the most dominant Laker teams of all time, you know, right after Elgin the Cancer was removed from the team they went like 33-0 or whatever it was. Classic situation of the ego unable to let go of the past, shame they couldn't recognize it sooner.


We can look back at the numbers, but I think we have to use more than just the numbers to judge a player's legacy. There has to be some kind of context behind those numbers.
Context doesn't just apply to the numbers, but to all the names being referenced.

Wrigheyes4MVP
05-08-2014, 12:06 PM
I'll be the one to say it... Lebron is top 2 all time.

Has he proven in statistically yet? ?No, because obviously his career is not over. But he is in his prime right now and I'll take prime Lebron top 2 all time. He would be great in any era so the idea that he wouldn't be as good in another era is ridiculous.

He is top 2 all time and its only a matter of time before this becomes the consensus. The players of today's era are not as bad as people make them out to be.

Wrigheyes4MVP
05-08-2014, 12:11 PM
My question is... where do you think CP3 and Durant will eventually be ranked?

Chronz
05-08-2014, 12:12 PM
You have to account for Birds injuries. Dude was a transcendent player and he dominated his opponents. And Bird played against Far better players, with different rules during his era so it's hard to quantify. Lebron has shown weakness

Birds injuries HURT his career/legacy, not enhance it in my book. Hes still high on my list, lacked overall longevity but he had a long/dominant prime. Not many players stay at a high level for so long. Like Moses Malone had a LONG career, but he had a shorter, less impressive prime run than Bird IMO. And to me, peak performance matters most.

As for the rules in place, I agree, they are different, but its still basketball and its still an argument you can use both ways regardless, some of us feel Bron would do better in the 80's, even the most recognized/biased Celtics fan in the world (Bill Simmons) admits that Bird was somewhat lucky to avoid the era of the super athletic swings, he would have to have been hidden alot more often defensively and dealt with rougher defenses of the 90's. Bird would translate into any era even without the benefit of growing up in it, simply because he had a diverse set of skills as it was. His passing game would have LOVED the zones of today, but his post game would hate the constant doubles. Theres a game winner he drains on Pippen/MJ on youtube, in it, you can clearly hear the announcer say "you have to wait to double" as the C's run a simple cross screen clear out for Bird in the post and he calmly drains the jumper over young Pippen. That wouldn't work as easily today but it would certainly be an option, just takes more time today.

Chronz
05-08-2014, 12:14 PM
My question is... where do you think CP3 and Durant will eventually be ranked?

Imaginary Top 30-40 for CP3 if we have any success this year. Durant will end up in the Top-10 at the least.

Chronz
05-08-2014, 12:23 PM
Lebron is pretty much top ten at this point.... probably top 5.

Hes 12th or 13th but can move up with every passing season.

MJ

(In No order)
Wilt-Shaq-Hakeem-KAJ-Duncan-Kobe-Magic-Bird

10th Russell

11th Moses Malone

12th West

13th Bron

Wrigheyes4MVP
05-08-2014, 12:26 PM
I see Durant being comparable to Bird when its all said and done. He just probably won't win as many ships though.

And I am one of those people that thinks Lebron would actually be better in earlier eras.

Its an interesting debate though with Lebron because players are more athletic in general nowadays. But, can you really hold that against Lebron? Just saying if he did play in the 80's or 90's... I highly doubt the physicality of the game would bother Lebron. LBJ is an athletic freak and pound for pound is as strong as they come. Ever since he started posting up, he became a complete player and quite frankly, I doubt the physical play would have hurt him back then. Lebron welcomes the physicality and would probably use it to his advantage IMO. I just think the argument that he is benefiting from this era is ridiculous. Lebron's talents would have translated to literally any era. The guy can do it all. Is this even a debate? It shouldn't be.

Sometimes you just have to recognize greatness. He game into the league with all the hype in the world and has lived up to it in every sense of the word. And this Heat team... its his team. Winning a championship is a team accomplishment and any all time great who has one multiple championships has pretty much had a stacked team so you can't take that away from Lebron either. Dude is about to 3-peat and it doesn't look like he is showing any signs of slowing down anytime soon. When its all said and done, he'll be consensus top 2.

Wrigheyes4MVP
05-08-2014, 12:30 PM
Hes 12th or 13th but can move up with every passing season.

MJ

(In No order)
Wilt-Shaq-Hakeem-KAJ-Duncan-Kobe-Magic-Bird

10th Russell

11th Moses Malone

12th West

13th Bron

I understand your argument, but I just have a different philosophy. IMO, Lebron has hit his peak... we are seeing him at his best right now and I have no reason to believe he will slow down anytime soon. He is going to win more championships... plural. I expect this.

I've seen what I need to see. If I had to do an all time draft with all these players starting at the beginning of their careers... Lebron would be a top 2 pick for me. Obviously his future has not been written yet, but his past and present has... and I have a pretty good idea what his future will be. So I am not going to hesitate in ranking him where I believe he truly should be ranked based on his talent.

He'd have to fall off a freakin cliff to not finish in the top 5.

Wrigheyes4MVP
05-08-2014, 12:34 PM
I liken it to Aaron Rodgers. After his 3rd great season since taking over for Favre... IMO he established he was teh best Qb in the game. Peyton and Brady were still there and at the top of their games, but I had seen enough from Rodgers to know that he is #1. Sometimes, you just don't need to wait on certain guys. Lebron is one of those guys. He is about to 3-peat lets face it. And who knows what he is going to do after that, but I'd venture to say he will win more championships because lets face it... he is the best player in the world and he isn't slowing anytime soon.

I mean think about it... he came in as a rookie and played great. By his second year he was an MVP caliber player and as soon as he joined a compitent team... he has become unstoppable. I'll honestly take him #2 because I don't see him slowing anytime soon.

Wrigheyes4MVP
05-08-2014, 12:37 PM
Like I'm sorry but I can't see how Moses Malone was a better basketball player than Lebron James. You know what I mean?

mightybosstone
05-08-2014, 12:39 PM
I feel like you have a very distorted view of Wilt, and I blame Simmons for his one sided documentary of it. Since when do we not have the playoff numbers of Wilt and Russ? Everything you said here can apply to Wilt's teammates as well, they weren't all on the same teams and they certainly all weren't HOF'ers on their own.
We have their playoff numbers, but I tried this morning and I had a very hard time finding head-to-head numbers of the two men in the postseason. If you have a link to those numbers, I'd love to see them. As for their overall playoff numbers, Wilt's are obviously better, but not nearly as much as in the regular season. You could easily argue that Russell's numbers were better in the postseason, while Wilt's were significantly worse.

As for Wilt's teammates, would they all have been Hall of Famers? Probably not Walker, but Cunningham, West, Baylor and Goodrich certainly would have been without Wilt.


Celtics always had more talent, the years Wilt did, he won in convincing fashion, as opposed to Wilt's undermanned teams pushing Russ's stacked squad to the limit. Baylor only had 1 good year with Wilt and it was under Butch the dunce so lets not just speak names.
I'd agree with you aside from the 68-69 season when Russell was clearly past his prime and Wilt had a prime West and Baylor on his side. And I disagree Wilt got only good season with Baylor. Elgin played two really solid years with Wilt and they failed again in 69-70 against the Knicks despite Willis Reed being unable to play for 95% of Game 7. You have to admit. Those Lakers teams failed pretty miserably despite a significant amount of talent. If that team played in today's era, they would be unmercifully crushed by the media.


Lakers weren't completely stacked, those Sixers squad were actually far more talented, Wilt regreted leaving them, its a shame injuries took them out of the rematch series.
I'll have to agree to disagree on this. They had three of the arguably 30-40 greatest players in the history of the NBA on a single roster and a pretty decent No. 4 in Mel Counts. The Celtics were the deeper team, but LA was certainly more talented at the top.

Chronz
05-08-2014, 12:39 PM
At his best, Bron is definitely higher up, but there was a point where Moses was the best player in the game as well. His peak stretch is still somewhat comparable to Bron, only hes held up for decades. That counts.

Championships are nice, but its about the overall body of work. Its why a championship doesn't make Elvin Hayes a Top-5 PF.

Kaner
05-08-2014, 12:44 PM
Hes 12th or 13th but can move up with every passing season.

MJ

(In No order)
Wilt-Shaq-Hakeem-KAJ-Duncan-Kobe-Magic-Bird

10th Russell

11th Moses Malone

12th West

13th Bron

How do you rank guys to put Russell at 10th? Statistically he doesn't sniff the top 20 and in terms of actual ability it's even farther down. But if were considering accolades and championships and ranking players on careers and not ability or performance than idk how Russell can be lower than 4th all-time.

Also curious about why you have Bird over Lebron at this point seems like a clear edge to Lebron or at worse a toss-up.

Chronz
05-08-2014, 12:56 PM
How do you rank guys to put Russell at 10th? Statistically he doesn't sniff the top 20 and in terms of actual ability it's even farther down. But if were considering accolades and championships and ranking players on careers and not ability or performance than idk how Russell can be lower than 4th all-time.

Also curious about why you have Bird over Lebron at this point seems like a clear edge to Lebron or at worse a toss-up.


Thats why its a combination thing, it would be too extreme to assume championships are an individual thing but also too extreme to completely ignore them and rely solely on statistics. But one thing I will say is that his era didn't lend itself to the fancy analysis we have now. All this +/- stuff that can highlight players whos contributions are well above their box score output, its simply another way of asking how a team would fare without this player. +/- is basically a more accurate version of looking at the before/after effect players have and those Celtics had a demonstrative improvement defensively when Russ arrived and a demonstrative decline when he retired. Am I to assume he didn't play the biggest role in those turnarounds? Russ was great, Im probably underrating him personally because I didn't get to see him, and I know how ****** he was offensively for most of his career, but his statistics matter less considering his area of expertise was being the best at defense, the very thing that drives championships. I have him lower because I feel like he was gifted the best situation (basketball wise) in Boston and because his lack of offensive ability. There is no right or wrong answer but its fun to debate anyways.

mightybosstone
05-08-2014, 01:01 PM
Wilt was selfish, but lots of greats were, and Wilt among those who can point to bad coaching and still following the orders of a loser coach, as he did when he subjugated his game for an undeserving Baylor. Wilt had his moments, like many greats, the regular season was something of a spectacle for him but he prioritized winning come playoff time.
Perhaps that's the case, but unless we were around to actually see the guy play, it's hard to take that argument too seriously. So much of our opinions of Wilt are based on books and articles we've read. And you could look at the stats and say "Wilt's playoff numbers dropped because he cared more about winning" or "Wilt's playoff numbers dropped because he was a poor playoff performer." How are we to tell the difference between the two?


9 teams in an era with little player movement made it easier for the sole dominant organization to remain dominant, thus its actually impressive that he wound up with 2 as his teams best player. Dont really care about that alpha dog crap as much as actual performance.
Even the greatest teams in the history of professional sports have a blip on the radar every once in a while. No team is perfect. And with as much talent as we both agree that Philly team had and I believe LA had, I see no reason why they Wilt's teams couldn't have won a few more playoff series and brought home a few more titles.


4? Can you name them? I count 3.
That's my fault. I forgot the Warriors moved from Philly to San Francisco.


Blame Butch and unfortunate timing. Baylor was done by that point, Wilt was injured at another point and they never played together in their primes. Wilt still won a championship with one of the most dominant Laker teams of all time, you know, right after Elgin the Cancer was removed from the team they went like 33-0 or whatever it was. Classic situation of the ego unable to let go of the past, shame they couldn't recognize it sooner.
Baylor was admittedly way past his peak, but his numbers in 69 and 70 rival any season he had since 63, so you could make a case that he was still in his "prime." Wilt certainly was. But I think we're just arguing semantics of whether prime Wilt and prime Baylor ever played together. Did they play together at their peaks? Certainly not. But those were still two all-time greats who were playing at an extremely high level.


Context doesn't just apply to the numbers, but to all the names being referenced.
I agree completely. But you're almost making it sound like Baylor was a shell of himself and was putting up horrid numbers. I have no idea whether or not the guy was a cancer on or off the court, but I can tell you that his numbers those two seasons he had with Wilt were pretty great.

bagwell368
05-08-2014, 01:16 PM
A lot of people underrate Russell, the dude would be a freak in the league today especially the modern training, shoes and nutrition.

When you factor in that Russell had to face no serious teams until the 76'ers in the mid 60's and then the Lakers for a couple of years, had the best Coach, GM, and supporting cast in the shrimpy NBA of his time the title count should surprise nobody. He was an average FG shooter at best which is pathetic when you consider he had 3 other players over 6'8" in the league until Wilt showed up. He was a poor FT shooter, even by the standards of the time.

If he had ended up on any of one of the 3 awful franchises of the time he would have won zero or perhaps one title. The reason guys get into the top 10 is because they can carry teams two ways against the best competition. Wilt averaged 28.7 PPG and 28.7 RPG against Russell all regular and post season games combined.

Looking at players that overlapped Russell: Wilt, Robertson, West, Pettit all arguably had more to do with the success of their teams (first two) - or at least as much (2nd two). None of those other four had the luxury of playing in a situation as awesome as Russell - but when they did they all succeeded in winning titles, Wilt's failure in a couple of cases being very complex - but one wasn't him at all, the other was him and others. There is after all value in the experience gained fighting for a title year in and year out - and experience missing from those that do not.

So, titles don't just accrue to players with rings - 1 to 1. IMO Bird's 3 are worth about 9 of Russells. So do you feel differently about Russell being in the top 10 w/ 4 rings on the Celts? How about no rings being on the Pistons?

Back on topic: Duncan is clearly top 10, he might be as high as top 7. 8 might be the most fair number.

Chronz
05-08-2014, 01:46 PM
We have their playoff numbers, but I tried this morning and I had a very hard time finding head-to-head numbers of the two men in the postseason. If you have a link to those numbers, I'd love to see them. As for their overall playoff numbers, Wilt's are obviously better, but not nearly as much as in the regular season. You could easily argue that Russell's numbers were better in the postseason, while Wilt's were significantly worse.
I've seen them before, it shouldn't be too hard to track down the google document but the numbers were fairly constant vs each other, regular season vs post season. Wilt averaged 30-28 vs Russ, in the playoffs it was more like 26-28. Russ was at 14-22 regular season, 15-25 in the playoffs.


So yeah, slight increase vs decrease but that could be for a variety of factors, like the ones I alluded to earlier with Wilt changing his game. Wilt was capable of dominating individually, he averaged 30 and 30 in that 7 series loss ffs but his greatest performance was when he averaged a triple double in their series win vs Russ. Russ scored 4pts in the elimination game.... 4PTS. Wilt may have lost, but either he or his teams put up a fight.


As for Wilt's teammates, would they all have been Hall of Famers? Probably not Walker, but Cunningham, West, Baylor and Goodrich certainly would have been without Wilt.
I love Walker. The main guy Im thinking about was Gola, who even if he makes it on his own merit, he doesn't stand out like the rest of the guys you mentioned. Oh and Baylor is irrelevant, he wasn't providing HOF play by then. He was creaky kneed 2-way liability.



I'd agree with you aside from the 68-69 season when Russell was clearly past his prime and Wilt had a prime West and Baylor on his side.And I disagree Wilt got only good season with Baylor.
I fail to see how Russ was in clear decline but Baylor was still in his prime. The dude had creaky knees that had already taken him out of games/series by the time Wilt showed up. It was a miracle that he even returned to All-Star form but he was most definitely not in his prime by 69. His first post season run with Wilt, he posted negative offensive win shares MBT, NEGATIVE!! He was a bum defender so he definitely owes some of his Defensive WS to Wilt. How about his playoff PER? Do you know how hard it is to post a PER below league average while being such a chucker?

Do you really think it was a coincidence that the first thing management did when Butch was jettisoned was hire a coach who would prioritize Wilt's role on the team above Baylors? Sadly, a devastating injury struck Wilt and it was his turn to alter his game. Its no coincidence my friend, as soon as Baylor retired, the team ran off the greatest winning streak in our games history.

You know your teammates were garb when an injury plagued season and another unproductive one are considered your 2 good years with a particular HOF'er.




Elgin played two really solid years with Wilt and they failed again in 69-70 against the Knicks despite Willis Reed being unable to play for 95% of Game 7. You have to admit. Those Lakers teams failed pretty miserably despite a significant amount of talent. If that team played in today's era, they would be unmercifully crushed by the media.
Umm wat? Really now, we are going to hold those seasons against Wilt? Wilt was lost to injury for most of the year, it was a medical miracle he was even able to return to the game let alone come back for a playoff run the same season. The year before that, they not only played a better team, but they were being held back by their own coach who prioritized the incumbent/inefficient Baylor over the guy who had already seen what it takes to win the whole thing.


I'll have to agree to disagree on this. They had three of the arguably 30-40 greatest players in the history of the NBA on a single roster and a pretty decent No. 4 in Mel Counts. The Celtics were the deeper team, but LA was certainly more talented at the top.
Not based on anything you've said, Baylor was far from his top form and the evidence that he held the team back at that point is staggering considering their success without him. Its like watching a hobbled Wade and knowing hes not helping Bron as much as he could be, only imagine an injured Wade unwilling to concede the throne to a superior specimen. That was Baylor at that point. Then think of D'Antoni and his improper use of the Lakers post men, that was Butch.

So we can agree to disagree, but you'll be disagreeing with the man who actually played with them both. A team many from that era dubbed the greatest of all-time. So long as Elgin was on the team, they were not more talented in ways that count.

mightybosstone
05-08-2014, 02:03 PM
So we can agree to disagree, but you'll be disagreeing with the man who actually played with them both.

Putting everything else aside for a second, this sentence threw me off. Who are you referring to that played with Wilt and Russell that I'm disagreeing with?

Chronz
05-08-2014, 02:08 PM
Perhaps that's the case, but unless we were around to actually see the guy play, it's hard to take that argument too seriously. So much of our opinions of Wilt are based on books and articles we've read. And you could look at the stats and say "Wilt's playoff numbers dropped because he cared more about winning" or "Wilt's playoff numbers dropped because he was a poor playoff performer." How are we to tell the difference between the two?
I dont have to see everything to know something to be true, not given the actions and articles chronicled since then. If you dont care to investigate their performance then whatever statistical analysis you reference becomes even less reliable. So if you dont investigate the stats, or the games, then what are you left with? Blind glances at win-loss tallies to determine dominance over an individual? Pass on that.



Even the greatest teams in the history of professional sports have a blip on the radar every once in a while. No team is perfect. And with as much talent as we both agree that Philly team had and I believe LA had, I see no reason why they Wilt's teams couldn't have won a few more playoff series and brought home a few more titles.

How can you win with that talent when its unavailable or removed from its prime? That Philly team was great due to its depth in the frontcourt, they lost that depth to significant injuries in the series vs Boston. I mean, if we ignore injuries, player support and coaching entirely, then I can see why you would have preferred more titles. I find it amazing that his teams pushed them to the brink despite their obvious limitations.



Baylor was admittedly way past his peak, but his numbers in 69 and 70 rival any season he had since 63, so you could make a case that he was still in his "prime."
Ahh 1963, otherwise known as the season that Baylor began to decline, and would soon suffer knee problems, imagine how significant that decline gets in 6 years with 60's level medical technology. How many knee injuries later is he no longer in his prime?




Wilt certainly was. But I think we're just arguing semantics of whether prime Wilt and prime Baylor ever played together. Did they play together at their peaks? Certainly not. But those were still two all-time greats who were playing at an extremely high level.
I saw no high level performance, they rarely played together in Y2 and when they did, it was with both dealing with Knee injuries. Y1 was them at their best and it was a mess given their horrendous coach and Baylors laughable playoff run. That horrible game plan is why the Lakers underachieved, had Elgin and Butch known their roles, those Lakers win the title. EGO cost them, and it wasn't Wilt's, he at least tried to stick with a glaringly flawed gameplan.



I agree completely. But you're almost making it sound like Baylor was a shell of himself and was putting up horrid numbers. I have no idea whether or not the guy was a cancer on or off the court, but I can tell you that his numbers those two seasons he had with Wilt were pretty great.
I dont see what makes them great and you not knowing how much of a cancer he was by this point is indicative of how little you know from that era, thus I dont really respect your stance on this subject. Its so obvious that it should be common sense, especially from someone who's seen how inefficiency can be cancerous to a teams offense. Especially when it gets in the way of a superior player. Do you really not know how the 2 clashed on and off the court? How you can look at that pairing and think that it was a high level of play is beyond me. Thats certainly not backed by the numbers or the eye test.

Bruno
05-08-2014, 02:11 PM
I have him 9th. Who do you put him ahead of on my list?

Jordan
Kareem
Chamberlain
Magic
Russell
Bird
Shaq
Robertson
Duncan
Kobe

you're missing hakeem.

Bruno
05-08-2014, 02:14 PM
are NBA fans ever going to accept that fact that Bird and Magic are overrated? Duncan has had a better career than both. I'd take Shaq and Kobe over both. I'd take Hakeem over both. Certainly the obvious ones like MJ, Wilt, and KAJ.

magic somehow gets a pass for only playing 10 years and never making a defensive team. Bird collapsed 9-10 years into his career. neither of them dominant anything statistically, be it counting totals or advanced numbers. what they did for the game was legendary, but that doesn't mean they're better than players who were clearly more dominant, accomplished more over significantly longer careers or accomplished more on the individual level.

abe_froman
05-08-2014, 02:19 PM
are NBA fans ever going to accept that fact that Bird and Magic are overrated? Duncan has had a better career than both. I'd take Shaq and Kobe over both. I'd take Hakeem over both. Certainly the obvious ones like MJ, Wilt, and KAJ.

magic somehow gets a pass for only playing 10 years and never making a defensive team. Bird collapsed 9-10 years into his career. neither of them dominant anything statistically, be it counting totals or advanced numbers. what they did for the game was legendary, but that doesn't mean they're better than players who were clearly more dominant, accomplished more over significantly longer careers or accomplished more on the individual level.
cant tell if serious...

Chronz
05-08-2014, 02:20 PM
Putting everything else aside for a second, this sentence threw me off. Who are you referring to that played with Wilt and Russell that I'm disagreeing with?

Talking about Lakers vs Philly in terms of roster support. When Wilt forced his trade to LA, it was because his owner had died and he felt management reneged on what was promised to him before the untimely death of his friend. After his playing days, he admits to regretting that move, that he had a perfect team in Philly. LA was far from perfect for him.

I said that because it seems like you think the names of West and (Old) Baylor outweigh anything else.

Bruno
05-08-2014, 02:23 PM
cant tell if serious...

i am. its an unpopular opinion. i know this. both are top ten players of all time, they're just not in the top five. run the numbers (advanced and counting), compare the accolades and tell me why i'm crazy. show me on paper why either one of them has a legitimate case against Duncan in overall career.

abe_froman
05-08-2014, 02:35 PM
i am. its an unpopular opinion. i know this. both are top ten players of all time, they're just not in the top five. run the numbers (advanced and counting), compare the accolades and tell me why i'm crazy. show me on paper why either one of them has a legitimate case against Duncan in overall career.
magic-number 1 in apg,5th on the total assists list(given a full career,he's easily be number 1),top 10 in ts%(in a tougher era),ect.,5x champion,tons of all nba,all star,ect.

bird-2x league leader in per,ws,and ws/48,(top 5 pretty much every other year),4x over 25ppg/top 20 in career ppg,3x mvp,tons of all stars,all nba,ect.


i'm not saying both or either are def above duncan,but they both have cases that can be made/are in the mix with him on the same level

FlashBolt
05-08-2014, 02:40 PM
are NBA fans ever going to accept that fact that Bird and Magic are overrated? Duncan has had a better career than both. I'd take Shaq and Kobe over both. I'd take Hakeem over both. Certainly the obvious ones like MJ, Wilt, and KAJ.

magic somehow gets a pass for only playing 10 years and never making a defensive team. Bird collapsed 9-10 years into his career. neither of them dominant anything statistically, be it counting totals or advanced numbers. what they did for the game was legendary, but that doesn't mean they're better than players who were clearly more dominant, accomplished more over significantly longer careers or accomplished more on the individual level.

I completely agree. Bird's career was far too short along with Magic. Even in their prime, Magic wasn't a great defender or scorer while Bird was a so-so defender. His short career doesn't get him anywhere near top 5. It's why Kobe is the greatest Lakers in my opinion. He's done so much for so long. Both are highly overrated, though. Kevin Durant by career's end will surpass Bird easily. I actually think that if Durant can win a couple of rings and MVP's, he'll be in top 5 territory by the end of his career. What he is doing now was not something LeBron did at 25. +, why do people always ignore the fact that Kareem, Byron, Worthy, McHale, Johnson, Maxwell, and Parish are nobodies? These are some quality players that could start in any era for any team.

Bruno
05-08-2014, 02:43 PM
I completely agree. Bird's career was far too short along with Magic. Even in their prime, Magic wasn't a great defender or scorer while Bird was a so-so defender. His short career doesn't get him anywhere near top 5. It's why Kobe is the greatest Lakers in my opinion. He's done so much for so long. Both are highly overrated, though. Kevin Durant by career's end will surpass Bird easily. I actually think that if Durant can win a couple of rings and MVP's, he'll be in top 5 territory by the end of his career. What he is doing now was not something LeBron did at 25. +, why do people always ignore the fact that Kareem, Byron, Worthy, McHale, Johnson, Maxwell, and Parish are nobodies? These are some quality players that could start in any era for any team.
i think Magic and Bird are awesome. what they did for the league is legendary. but what they did for the league somehow gets accredited out to their actual overall impact and overall career accomplishments. i think you could argue that magic and bird will always sustain a top three legacy in NBA history along with MJ, but in terms of overall career- they've been passed by nearly a half dozen players since their retirement.

Bruno
05-08-2014, 02:45 PM
magic-number 1 in apg,5th on the total assists list(given a full career,he's easily be number 1),top 10 in ts%(in a tougher era),ect.,5x champion,tons of all nba,all star,ect.

bird-2x league leader in per,ws,and ws/48,(top 5 pretty much every other year),4x over 25ppg/top 20 in career ppg,3x mvp,tons of all stars,all nba,ect.


i'm not saying both or either are def above duncan,but they both have cases that can be made/are in the mix with him on the same level

those are great stats. but not top fivesque stats. and i agree magic would have accomplished more but at the end of the day we have to judge his career for what he actually accomplished and not what he could have. sports are hard enough to debate as is, all the could hads gotta go out the window. i think they have cases to be made too. i just think Duncan had a bigger impact for a longer period of time. Duncan anchored a defense, magic never made a defensive team. somehow he gets a pass for being a non impact player for 50% of the game. it's because he was majestically good on offense.

mngopher35
05-08-2014, 02:55 PM
are NBA fans ever going to accept that fact that Bird and Magic are overrated? Duncan has had a better career than both. I'd take Shaq and Kobe over both. I'd take Hakeem over both. Certainly the obvious ones like MJ, Wilt, and KAJ.

magic somehow gets a pass for only playing 10 years and never making a defensive team. Bird collapsed 9-10 years into his career. neither of them dominant anything statistically, be it counting totals or advanced numbers. what they did for the game was legendary, but that doesn't mean they're better than players who were clearly more dominant, accomplished more over significantly longer careers or accomplished more on the individual level.

This seems like an unpopular opinion but it is something I have considered myself. Not being able to see the era live makes it harder for me to judge. From the tape I have watched and what each accomplished I have Bird just at the 10 spot and Magic at 4-7 (with Shaq/Hakeem/Duncan tier).

Lack of longevity, no real dominating statistics and fact that they were in great situations to collect those accolades, and defense has me questioning their ranking from time to time (specifically the bigs vs. Magic, and earlier in this thread the Russell/Bird dilemma). I generally drop Bird lower than Magic because he has less accolades and a shorter time of really good play. Overall though it seems my rankings have them lower than most so I somewhat agree with you.

abe_froman
05-08-2014, 02:56 PM
those are great stats. but not top fivesque stats. and i agree magic would have accomplished more but at the end of the day we have to judge his career for what he actually accomplished and not what he could have. sports are hard enough to debate as is, all the could hads gotta go out the window. i think they have cases to be made too. i just think Duncan had a bigger impact for a longer period of time. Duncan anchored a defense, magic never made a defensive team. somehow he gets a pass for being a non impact player for 50% of the game. it's because he was majestically good on offense.
because offense is half the game(abit more than that actually).using that td anchored a defense.we tend to over glorify that side,as a reaction(overreaction) to the perception that mainstream only cares about o.

i agree that duncan is great and more well rounded than either(though the bird is a bad defender thing is alil out of hand,he just wasnt great at it;and magic would be a decent defender when motivated)


td def had an impact longer...but a bigger one? that debatable

FlashBolt
05-08-2014, 02:56 PM
those are great stats. but not top fivesque stats. and i agree magic would have accomplished more but at the end of the day we have to judge his career for what he actually accomplished and not what he could have. sports are hard enough to debate as is, all the could hads gotta go out the window. i think they have cases to be made too. i just think Duncan had a bigger impact for a longer period of time. Duncan anchored a defense, magic never made a defensive team. somehow he gets a pass for being a non impact player for 50% of the game. it's because he was majestically good on offense.

I think this is a great point. Defense is roughly 50% of the game so if they aren't good at defense/offense, why should they be top 10? The best players should be lethal on offense and defense.

mngopher35
05-08-2014, 02:58 PM
But Wilt's the kind of guy who you question whether his stats sometimes came at the expense of his own teams. Like the year he attempted to lead the league in assists just to say he did it. That strikes me as an unbelievably arrogant, selfish way to play basketball. Rusell was the anti-Wilt, a guy who gave up his own statistical numbers for the sake of his team. Also, because we don't have the numbers for their playoff matchups, it's hard to know whether Wilt truly outperformed Russell or not.


I generally rank them based on their individual performance, but I wasn't alive during the 60s and the game was different back then. It bothers me that Wilt played a huge chunk of his career in a league that had only 9 teams and only managed one title as an alpha dog. It bothers me that he was this insanely dominant force, yet he played for four different teams over his career. It bothers me that he played with West and Baylor at the end of Russell's career and only managed one title as the No. 3 offensive weapon in 72.

We can look back at the numbers, but I think we have to use more than just the numbers to judge a player's legacy. There has to be some kind of context behind those numbers.

Alright, those do seem like fair concerns to me. Chronz answered a few of them below and he might be better to debate on this subject, as he seems to know more about that era. While you listed some decent players on Wilt's team the Russell teams were almost always better and sometimes significantly so personally I have a hard time using that. From the box scores I have seen in the past Wilt outplayed Russell head to head but it is always hard judging their overall impact without seeing them live or even much tape. I agree context must be used, which is why I don't think it can just be an accolades or stats debate. Each player has one favor them heavily and it seems to me that Wilt has less control over the accolades with the teams they each had.

I think you should just continue your discussion with Chronz on this topic, you guys seem to have a good debate going. Thanks for the response though. If you feel the need to point anything extra out to me feel free.

KnicksorBust
05-08-2014, 03:04 PM
are NBA fans ever going to accept that fact that Bird and Magic are overrated? Duncan has had a better career than both. I'd take Shaq and Kobe over both. I'd take Hakeem over both. Certainly the obvious ones like MJ, Wilt, and KAJ.

magic somehow gets a pass for only playing 10 years and never making a defensive team. Bird collapsed 9-10 years into his career. neither of them dominant anything statistically, be it counting totals or advanced numbers. what they did for the game was legendary, but that doesn't mean they're better than players who were clearly more dominant, accomplished more over significantly longer careers or accomplished more on the individual level.

I'm fine with Bird. I have Duncan and Kobe both ahead of him. I completely disagree about Magic. He didn't dominate the PG position? He's #1 all-time in apg. He averaged 20ppg on a TS% of 60%... FOR HIS CAREER.

More MVPs. More consecutive all-nba 1st teams. More finals trips. More rings.

What about Duncan's career surpasses that? You value longevity that much? Where do you put Kobe overall?

KnicksorBust
05-08-2014, 03:06 PM
I think this is a great point. Defense is roughly 50% of the game so if they aren't good at defense/offense, why should they be top 10? The best players should be lethal on offense and defense.

Easier to find Michael Cooper than Magic Johnson.

Lucky.
05-08-2014, 03:21 PM
The appropriate spot for Duncan would be 5-6.

JeremiahWing
05-08-2014, 03:27 PM
MJ
KAJ
Wilt

these 3 never move on my list. The next 5, depends on how I feel that day:

Shaq
Magic
Duncan
Hakeem
LeBron

rounding out my top 10 are probably Kobe, and Russell, in that order for me.

This is pretty much perfect, except I might take Bird over Kobe and Russell.

mightybosstone
05-08-2014, 03:29 PM
those are great stats. but not top fivesque stats. and i agree magic would have accomplished more but at the end of the day we have to judge his career for what he actually accomplished and not what he could have. sports are hard enough to debate as is, all the could hads gotta go out the window. i think they have cases to be made too. i just think Duncan had a bigger impact for a longer period of time. Duncan anchored a defense, magic never made a defensive team. somehow he gets a pass for being a non impact player for 50% of the game. it's because he was majestically good on offense.

I get the argument that Duncan's defensive impact allows him to affect the game more as a two-way player than Magic does as strictly an offensive guy who was only so-so n defense. But even the greatest perimeter defender in NBA history isn't going to have the same impact on the game than a great post defender, so that's kind of the nature of the differences between positions.

However, I don't know how you can suggest Magic wasn't every bit the player Duncan was. Was Duncan great for a longer period of time? Sure. But can you blame Magic? The guy retired in his prime after discovering he had HIV. If he had kept playing, that would probably be a moot point. But if you want to argue peak vs. peak, both he and Duncan essentially had 4-5 years of a 26-27 PER and a .25+ WS WS/48. Magic has a substantial edge in TS%, OWS, AST% and other offensive stats, while Duncan has an obvious edge in DWS, TRB%, BLK% and other defensive stats.

Numbers-wise, I'd say they're about even, but given Magic's ridiculous success over a relatively short period of time and offensive dominance, I'll take his career over Duncan's. Also, Magic is just a freak as a skilled athlete of his size. Sometimes, I think the "you'll never see another player like that again" factor matters to some extent, and Magic certainly has that in his favor.

I agree that Bird is a step below those guys, but not substantially so. He peaked for four years with a 26-27 PER and essentially a .240 WS/48. He had fewer rings than those guys, but just as many MVPs. His career was equally short as Duncan's, but again, I have a hard time blaming the guy when injuries were clearly the reason his career was cut short. It's worth mentioning, though, that Bird was a rookie at 23. If he gets another 2 years of his prime, this might be a different discussion.

Regardless of what you think about the Magic vs. Bird vs. Duncan argument, there's one conclusion I can definitely make. All three guys are better than Kobe. ;)

Hawkeye15
05-08-2014, 03:30 PM
You have to account for Birds injuries. Dude was a transcendent player and he dominated his opponents. And Bird played against Far better players, with different rules during his era so it's hard to quantify. Lebron has shown weakness

People do account for Bird's injuries, which is why he is lower on the list for many people.

ink
05-08-2014, 03:38 PM
Duncan top 5-7. Best of his generation.

Btw Magic top 3 as best Laker all time. Lebron will be approaching top 3-5 before his career is done.

mightybosstone
05-08-2014, 03:40 PM
Talking about Lakers vs Philly in terms of roster support.
In terms of sheer talent, I still think I'd rather have West and a past-his-prime Baylor over a two-year stretch than Cunningham, Walker and Greer. But I can see how that could have been a situation of fit and depth outweighing talent. Regardless, I still just think Wilt should have won more titles in his prime. Is it unfair? Perhaps, but I don't think this is a Lebron situation where he was playing in a deep, deep league on a team with no other stars. This was a transcendent athlete playing in a league with only 2-3 other legitimate contenders every season whose teams failed time and time again in the Finals. And it's certainly not all his fault, but that's not how society views superstars and how they ought to perform.


When Wilt forced his trade to LA, it was because his owner had died and he felt management reneged on what was promised to him before the untimely death of his friend. After his playing days, he admits to regretting that move, that he had a perfect team in Philly. LA was far from perfect for him.
That's an interesting take on it. Usually any article I read on Wilt leaving Philly paints him as the villain rather than the victim. I wonder how that situation would have looked today with the constant media overload we have with players. Would Wilt have gotten the same kind of negative feedback that Lebron and Dwight got when they left? Or would it have been more of a grey area? I would have loved to have been alive to see how these historical moments played out firsthand.

mightybosstone
05-08-2014, 03:43 PM
Duncan top 5-7. Best of his generation.
I'm curious. Are you including Lebron and Shaq in Duncan's "generation" or just guys like Kobe, Garnett, Dirk, Kidd and Nash who came out about the same time?


Btw Magic top 3 as best Laker all time. Lebron will be approaching top 3-5 before his career is done.
Again, this statement piques my curiosity. Are you saying that Magic was a better player than Kareem or just a better Laker?

P&GRealist
05-08-2014, 03:45 PM
8-9

Bruno
05-08-2014, 03:53 PM
I'm fine with Bird. I have Duncan and Kobe both ahead of him. I completely disagree about Magic. He didn't dominate the PG position? He's #1 all-time in apg. He averaged 20ppg on a TS% of 60%... FOR HIS CAREER.

More MVPs. More consecutive all-nba 1st teams. More finals trips. More rings.

What about Duncan's career surpasses that? You value longevity that much? Where do you put Kobe overall?

i should rephrase that and say- they don't statistically dominate other players in the top ten discussion who are universally considered to be behind them. they dominated in their own right and of course for their position. when i look at a magic/duncan debate I see comparable accolades, with duncan having a slight edge in peak advanced line, overall advanced line (maybe call those two a wash) and certainly totals. I also see a defense anchor who is an all time great defender. the more I watch basketball the more credit i think defensive anchors deserve. especially when the wing they're being compared to didn't rack an all defensive team in his era. magic didn't dominate the defensive end. thats 50% of the game.

MJ-Wilt-KAJ-Duncan-Shaq/Hakeem/Kobe-Kobe/Shaq/Hakeem-Hakeem/Shaq/Kobe-Magic/Bird-Bird/Magic-Russell. James probably sits at 11 or 12 right next to Moses, Robertson and West for me at the moment. my list is like every other list when it comes to criteria but I give superiority to the better two way players in a comparison where stats (advanced+totals) and accolades are similar. i think we as fans tend to ignore the other 50% of the game (or in Russells case, the other 50% of the game) when it comes to putting together our lists. I compound that when looking at bigs who can anchor defenses. i also think its unfair to compare the different positions against each other because bigs have a built in advantage because of what they can do on the defensive end.

YAALREADYKNO
05-08-2014, 03:56 PM
top 10 best PF of alltime

Bruno
05-08-2014, 03:58 PM
I get the argument that Duncan's defensive impact allows him to affect the game more as a two-way player than Magic does as strictly an offensive guy who was only so-so n defense. But even the greatest perimeter defender in NBA history isn't going to have the same impact on the game than a great post defender, so that's kind of the nature of the differences between positions.

However, I don't know how you can suggest Magic wasn't every bit the player Duncan was. Was Duncan great for a longer period of time? Sure. But can you blame Magic? The guy retired in his prime after discovering he had HIV. If he had kept playing, that would probably be a moot point. But if you want to argue peak vs. peak, both he and Duncan essentially had 4-5 years of a 26-27 PER and a .25+ WS WS/48. Magic has a substantial edge in TS%, OWS, AST% and other offensive stats, while Duncan has an obvious edge in DWS, TRB%, BLK% and other defensive stats.

Numbers-wise, I'd say they're about even, but given Magic's ridiculous success over a relatively short period of time and offensive dominance, I'll take his career over Duncan's. Also, Magic is just a freak as a skilled athlete of his size. Sometimes, I think the "you'll never see another player like that again" factor matters to some extent, and Magic certainly has that in his favor.

I agree that Bird is a step below those guys, but not substantially so. He peaked for four years with a 26-27 PER and essentially a .240 WS/48. He had fewer rings than those guys, but just as many MVPs. His career was equally short as Duncan's, but again, I have a hard time blaming the guy when injuries were clearly the reason his career was cut short. It's worth mentioning, though, that Bird was a rookie at 23. If he gets another 2 years of his prime, this might be a different discussion.

Regardless of what you think about the Magic vs. Bird vs. Duncan argument, there's one conclusion I can definitely make. All three guys are better than Kobe. ;)
zing!

debating Bird/Kobe might be harder of a climb in favor of bird than you'd imagine. look at their numbers, they're practically doppelganger for each other. Kobes lasted longer and was a better defender.

YAALREADYKNO
05-08-2014, 04:00 PM
how is robertson and russell ahead of duncan?


I have him 9th. Who do you put him ahead of on my list?

Jordan
Kareem
Chamberlain
Magic
Russell
Bird
Shaq
Robertson
Duncan
Kobe

Bruno
05-08-2014, 04:05 PM
I get the argument that Duncan's defensive impact allows him to affect the game more as a two-way player than Magic does as strictly an offensive guy who was only so-so n defense. But even the greatest perimeter defender in NBA history isn't going to have the same impact on the game than a great post defender, so that's kind of the nature of the differences between positions. I know. its totally unfair but it doesn't change the impact.


However, I don't know how you can suggest Magic wasn't every bit the player Duncan was. Was Duncan great for a longer period of time? Sure. But can you blame Magic? The guy retired in his prime after discovering he had HIV. If he had kept playing, that would probably be a moot point. But if you want to argue peak vs. peak, both he and Duncan essentially had 4-5 years of a 26-27 PER and a .25+ WS WS/48. Magic has a substantial edge in TS%, OWS, AST% and other offensive stats, while Duncan has an obvious edge in DWS, TRB%, BLK% and other defensive stats. simply because Duncan dominated both sides of the court. Of course not. again, its totally unfair. but at the end of the day I gotta judge these guys on what actually went down, and not the hypothetical landscape where Magic dominates until '96, dethroning MJ' Bulls after DR. Buss spent up the cash for his post-Kareem post presence. I can only judge on what they accomplished while they were on the court, and the impact they had during the entire game.


Numbers-wise, I'd say they're about even, but given Magic's ridiculous success over a relatively short period of time and offensive dominance, I'll take his career over Duncan's. Also, Magic is just a freak as a skilled athlete of his size. Sometimes, I think the "you'll never see another player like that again" factor matters to some extent, and Magic certainly has that in his favor. yeah i'd agree that its pretty even statistically.

Magic does have that in his favor, but that argument also kind of reminds me to the "kobe is so skilled" argument. yes, he is very skilled. lets look at the total production and what they accomplished with their physical gifts or skills rather than making the skills or physical gifts the points of emphasis over impact while on the court.


I agree that Bird is a step below those guys, but not substantially so. He peaked for four years with a 26-27 PER and essentially a .240 WS/48. He had fewer rings than those guys, but just as many MVPs. His career was equally short as Duncan's, but again, I have a hard time blaming the guy when injuries were clearly the reason his career was cut short. It's worth mentioning, though, that Bird was a rookie at 23. If he gets another 2 years of his prime, this might be a different discussion. definitely not substantially so. all of this stuff is pretty damn close and I reserve the right to change my list at any time. :hi5: and i know i totally agree that what happened to Birds healthy wasn't necessarily fair but at the end of the day the results are the results.

Bruno
05-08-2014, 04:10 PM
This seems like an unpopular opinion but it is something I have considered myself. Not being able to see the era live makes it harder for me to judge. From the tape I have watched and what each accomplished I have Bird just at the 10 spot and Magic at 4-7 (with Shaq/Hakeem/Duncan tier).

Lack of longevity, no real dominating statistics and fact that they were in great situations to collect those accolades, and defense has me questioning their ranking from time to time (specifically the bigs vs. Magic, and earlier in this thread the Russell/Bird dilemma). I generally drop Bird lower than Magic because he has less accolades and a shorter time of really good play. Overall though it seems my rankings have them lower than most so I somewhat agree with you.

i'm being a bit blunt and harsh here to make a point. all of these guys are pretty damn close to each other thats what makes it an interesting debate. you almost have to reach for reasons to put one guy in front of another with some of these clusters. i've been on the fence with this opinion for a long time. in years past I have Magic Russell and Bird in top five.

mngopher35
05-08-2014, 04:51 PM
i'm being a bit blunt and harsh here to make a point. all of these guys are pretty damn close to each other thats what makes it an interesting debate. you almost have to reach for reasons to put one guy in front of another with some of these clusters. i've been on the fence with this opinion for a long time. in years past I have Magic Russell and Bird in top five.

Agreed, my list is ever changing as well. I noticed in some of your other posts about realizing the importance of a defensive anchor and that is something that I have given more credit to in recent years as well. A lot of people like the tier system which I have:

MJ
Wilt/KAJ
Magic/Shaq/Timmy/Hakeem
Kobe//Bird/James/Russell

Even that has some arguments of players moving around, but this makes it a little easier at times. If you notice I have big men who dominated on both sides of the ball in my first 3 tiers outside of Magic and Jordan (shaq maybe not quite as much but extra dominant on offense). James will likely enter one of the top tiers as well before it is all said and done, but he is an athletic freak himself even if not a 7 footer.

KnicksorBust
05-08-2014, 06:12 PM
i should rephrase that and say- they don't statistically dominate other players in the top ten discussion who are universally considered to be behind them. they dominated in their own right and of course for their position. when i look at a magic/duncan debate I see comparable accolades, with duncan having a slight edge in peak advanced line, overall advanced line (maybe call those two a wash) and certainly totals. I also see a defense anchor who is an all time great defender. the more I watch basketball the more credit i think defensive anchors deserve. especially when the wing they're being compared to didn't rack an all defensive team in his era. magic didn't dominate the defensive end. thats 50% of the game.

MJ-Wilt-KAJ-Duncan-Shaq/Hakeem/Kobe-Kobe/Shaq/Hakeem-Hakeem/Shaq/Kobe-Magic/Bird-Bird/Magic-Russell. James probably sits at 11 or 12 right next to Moses, Robertson and West for me at the moment. my list is like every other list when it comes to criteria but I give superiority to the better two way players in a comparison where stats (advanced+totals) and accolades are similar. i think we as fans tend to ignore the other 50% of the game (or in Russells case, the other 50% of the game) when it comes to putting together our lists. I compound that when looking at bigs who can anchor defenses. i also think its unfair to compare the different positions against each other because bigs have a built in advantage because of what they can do on the defensive end.

What about playoff accomplishments / team success?

COOLbeans
05-08-2014, 07:14 PM
you're missing hakeem.

I have Hakeem 11th but I'm not mad at someone putting him in the top 10.

Most people alive didn't see Oscar, but again like Russell, I think people underrate him. During the 90s I remember 3rd party sources saying his talent level was comparable to Jordans'. I can't take Oscar out of the top 10 but as of now Hakeem ranks higher than Lebron.

On my list only Kobe can be removed for Olajuwan

Hawkeye15
05-08-2014, 07:18 PM
Agreed, my list is ever changing as well. I noticed in some of your other posts about realizing the importance of a defensive anchor and that is something that I have given more credit to in recent years as well. A lot of people like the tier system which I have:

MJ
Wilt/KAJ
Magic/Shaq/Timmy/Hakeem
Kobe//Bird/James/Russell

Even that has some arguments of players moving around, but this makes it a little easier at times. If you notice I have big men who dominated on both sides of the ball in my first 3 tiers outside of Magic and Jordan (shaq maybe not quite as much but extra dominant on offense). James will likely enter one of the top tiers as well before it is all said and done, but he is an athletic freak himself even if not a 7 footer.

if we are going straight tier level ranking, I am 1000000% with yours..

COOLbeans
05-08-2014, 07:20 PM
I'm fine with Bird. I have Duncan and Kobe both ahead of him. I completely disagree about Magic. He didn't dominate the PG position? He's #1 all-time in apg. He averaged 20ppg on a TS% of 60%... FOR HIS CAREER.

More MVPs. More consecutive all-nba 1st teams. More finals trips. More rings.

What about Duncan's career surpasses that? You value longevity that much? Where do you put Kobe overall?

Stockton's 1st in apg

Magic is a lock top 5-7 player, but he's in my top 5

KnicksorBust
05-08-2014, 07:25 PM
Stockton's 1st in apg

Magic is a lock top 5-7 player, but he's in my top 5

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ast_per_g_career.html

COOLbeans
05-08-2014, 07:26 PM
I'm curious. Are you including Lebron and Shaq in Duncan's "generation" or just guys like Kobe, Garnett, Dirk, Kidd and Nash who came out about the same time?


Again, this statement piques my curiosity. Are you saying that Magic was a better player than Kareem or just a better Laker?

My top 10 of That generation

Shaq
Duncan
Kobe


Iverson
Garnett
Kidd


Payton
Dirk
Nash
Pierce

Hawkeye15
05-08-2014, 07:28 PM
My top 10 of That generation

Shaq
Duncan

Kobe
Iverson
Garnett

Kidd
Payton
Dirk
Nash
Pierce

Payton is not in the same generation as those guys, he was in MJ's generation.

COOLbeans
05-08-2014, 07:29 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ast_per_g_career.html

Yup I misread your post

COOLbeans
05-08-2014, 07:34 PM
Payton is not in the same generation as those guys, he was in MJ's generation.

You say that with such conviction. Payton was drafted 6 years after Michael. I consider him apart of Shaq's generation and a hybrid since he didnt play in the 80s

Hawkeye15
05-08-2014, 07:40 PM
You say that with such conviction. Payton was drafted 6 years after Michael. I consider him apart of Shaq's generation and a hybrid since he didnt play in the 80s

I can agree there may have been an overlap with Payton, but his best days were behind him when the majority of the others you listed were starting to kill it.

Bruno
05-08-2014, 08:44 PM
Agreed, my list is ever changing as well. I noticed in some of your other posts about realizing the importance of a defensive anchor and that is something that I have given more credit to in recent years as well. A lot of people like the tier system which I have:

MJ
Wilt/KAJ
Magic/Shaq/Timmy/Hakeem
Kobe//Bird/James/Russell

Even that has some arguments of players moving around, but this makes it a little easier at times. If you notice I have big men who dominated on both sides of the ball in my first 3 tiers outside of Magic and Jordan (shaq maybe not quite as much but extra dominant on offense). James will likely enter one of the top tiers as well before it is all said and done, but he is an athletic freak himself even if not a 7 footer.

I like your clusters a lot. I think debating clusters then breaking down clusters by player is the easiest way to do it. I'd throw Moses Malone in the 4th cluster. I also kinda like Wilt behind MJ on the / option. i think Wilt has a decent argument as the GOAT, he just doesn't have the story book career that MJ has. I think the fact that Wilt averaged 50/25 and put up 100 points in a game makes it harder to defend him as a potential GOAT. thats all everyone discusses and it becomes a discussion about era instead of how absolutely dominant he was. have you seen this? the man was a giant with physical grace and skill. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU43dTuMuig

maybe thats old man strength and pride but look at shaqs body next to 60 year old Wilt. i think he'd be the most dominant player in any era, right there with MJ.

all of Chronzs talk about defensive anchors has swayed me over. its an unfair advantage that bigs have but the results are the results. can't argue the impact even if wing player B was never eligible to give that impact in the first place.

I'd also agree that Shaq was the worst defender out of the five centers most of us have in our top 11, maybe someone could sell me that it's Kareem.


What about playoff accomplishments / team success?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=johnsma02&y1=1991&p2=duncati01&y2=2014

they're pretty close. three finals MVPs each. Duncan has put up more post-season win-shares with a slightly better playoff PER. Magic with an edge in WS/48. Magic has the 5th ring and didn't accomplish one of his titles in a lock out season, so I give playoff success a slight edge to Magic. but duncans right behind him. his longevity and ability to carry a defense is a bigger gap than the gap between their playoff success, for me it sways slightly in Duncans favor. so hard and unfair to compare these two really but thats what you do when you make an all time list. Magic Johnson was majestically good on offense. I think you could argue that he is one of the three or four best offensive players of all time right there with MJ, KAJ and Wilt. maybe the highest offensive IQ in league history, if not IQ then certainly the intuitive feel for the offensive game.


I have Hakeem 11th but I'm not mad at someone putting him in the top 10.

Most people alive didn't see Oscar, but again like Russell, I think people underrate him. During the 90s I remember 3rd party sources saying his talent level was comparable to Jordans'. I can't take Oscar out of the top 10 but as of now Hakeem ranks higher than Lebron.

On my list only Kobe can be removed for Olajuwan
depending on ones top ten it seems some will put Kobe/Hakeem/James/Robertson at 11 based on how your prioritize. i could see how Hakeem could be left off the top ten but I think he's gotta be there. Hakeem dominated both ways but in terms of advanced he's behind Wilt, KAJ, Duncan and Shaq, although maybe being the most 'skilled' and well rounded of the five. I think he's gotta be in front of Moses who Id have after him on the center list. Robertson is difficult for me to rate. I probably put him at 11th 12th or 13th right next to Moses James and West and ahead of (enter) 90's great who lost against MJ.

Chronz
05-09-2014, 12:37 AM
In terms of sheer talent, I still think I'd rather have West and a past-his-prime Baylor over a two-year stretch than Cunningham, Walker and Greer. But I can see how that could have been a situation of fit and depth outweighing talent. Regardless, I still just think Wilt should have won more titles in his prime. Is it unfair? Perhaps, but I don't think this is a Lebron situation where he was playing in a deep, deep league on a team with no other stars. This was a transcendent athlete playing in a league with only 2-3 other legitimate contenders every season whose teams failed time and time again in the Finals. And it's certainly not all his fault, but that's not how society views superstars and how they ought to perform.


That's an interesting take on it. Usually any article I read on Wilt leaving Philly paints him as the villain rather than the victim. I wonder how that situation would have looked today with the constant media overload we have with players. Would Wilt have gotten the same kind of negative feedback that Lebron and Dwight got when they left? Or would it have been more of a grey area? I would have loved to have been alive to see how these historical moments played out firsthand.

Bron had it rough, but he didn't have it like Wilt. Smaller league is what allowed Boston to be a dynasty so I dont see how that helps the argument. Bron failed and failed as well, his loss to Dallas is FAR worse than any Finals loss Wilt suffered so whats with the double standard? If you want to focus exclusively on Cleveland then you cant deny Bron was locked up far worse than Wilt ever was in ANY series.

What have you read because being a villain can still be true, but it wouldn't change why Wilt forced the trade and his ensuing thoughts when reflecting on his career. Philly had the makings of a sustainable power, LA was old at the time. Easy to see why he regrets it.

mightybosstone
05-09-2014, 12:43 AM
My top 10 of That generation

Shaq
Duncan
Kobe


Iverson
Garnett
Kidd


Payton
Dirk
Nash
Pierce

:facepalm:

So much fail. The fact that you put Iverson ahead of Garnett and Dirk and the fact that you're considering Payton part of that generation is deeply concerning. You realize that Payton was drafted in 1990, right?

Chronz
05-09-2014, 01:59 AM
if we are going straight tier level ranking, I am 1000000% with yours..

So why Bron ahead of West/Moses?

vics
05-09-2014, 02:14 AM
Wow! That is easily one of the worst lists I have ever seen. No disrespect of course.Actually it's one of the best list I've ever seen.

slashsnake
05-09-2014, 03:45 AM
Stockton's 1st in apg

Magic is a lock top 5-7 player, but he's in my top 5

Stockton 10.51 career assists per game
Magic 11.19 career assists per game.

IKnowHoops
05-09-2014, 04:27 AM
3 year Peak greatest.

1.Bron
2.Jordan
3.Shaq
4.Wilt
5.Jabbar
6.Drob
7.Dream
8.Duncan
9.KG
10.Durant
11.Kobe
12.Wade
13.Oscar
14.Magic
15.Bird
16.CP3
17.Tmac
18.Barkley
19.Malone
20.Dirk

jerellh528
05-09-2014, 04:41 AM
I wonder where he lands if he gets another ring this season.

Bostonjorge
05-09-2014, 04:44 AM
Duncan hasn't been the best player on his own team since 2006. Parker has been the best player every year since then. Duncan also lost to a 8th seed because of his own match up against Marc Gasol. Duncan was great early on then just a great compliment to Parker.

He's still the greatest PF ever and his rings is what wins him his arguments when comparing him to other PF.

For those ranking him higher then Kobe are wrong. Kobe has accomplished more then Duncan with individual stats and awards. Kobe has had more prime years.

Also in head to head games they played. Duncan has 1 more win over all but kobe has 6 more playoff wins. Kobe has swept prime Duncan and has eliminated Duncan 4 times from the playoffs. Can't see how Duncan is ranked higher then kobe.

jerellh528
05-09-2014, 05:21 AM
Duncan hasn't been the best player on his own team since 2006. Parker has been the best player every year since then. Duncan also lost to a 8th seed because of his own match up against Marc Gasol. Duncan was great early on then just a great compliment to Parker.

He's still the greatest PF ever and his rings is what wins him his arguments when comparing him to other PF.

For those ranking him higher then Kobe are wrong. Kobe has accomplished more then Duncan with individual stats and awards. Kobe has had more prime years.

Also in head to head games they played. Duncan has 1 more win over all but kobe has 6 more playoff wins. Kobe has swept prime Duncan and has eliminated Duncan 4 times from the playoffs. Can't see how Duncan is ranked higher then kobe.

Ranking these two is so tough, it can go either way. Most people would probably have Kobe ahead at this point though

Chronz
05-09-2014, 12:03 PM
Duncan hasn't been the best player on his own team since 2006.
I disagree


Parker has been the best player every year since then.
Very much debatable. I feel like TP and Duncan have switched roles over the years, depending on Duncan's health/fitness.


Duncan also lost to a 8th seed because of his own match up against Marc Gasol. Duncan was great early on then just a great compliment to Parker.

Actually it was mostly because he and Manu were injured. But yes, upsets happen, Duncan has since recovered.


He's still the greatest PF ever and his rings is what wins him his arguments when comparing him to other PF.
Nope. Its his combination of 2-way dominance and winning.


For those ranking him higher then Kobe are wrong.
There is no right and wrong when discussing the best of the best. You can certainly attempt to make a case but I dont see one thats more accomplished than Duncan's.


Kobe has accomplished more then Duncan with individual stats and awards. Kobe has had more prime years.
What if we prefer to put stock in statistical analysis thats done by actual statisticians, as opposed to the unsubstantiated claims of a fanboy? Particularly when that fanboy has proven to selectively apply statistics whenever it helps his argument (Russell ring any bells)


Also in head to head games they played. Duncan has 1 more win over all but kobe has 6 more playoff wins. Kobe has swept prime Duncan and has eliminated Duncan 4 times from the playoffs. Can't see how Duncan is ranked higher then kobe.
LOL. This matters why? Kobe has generally had better teams than Duncan.

Tony_Starks
05-09-2014, 12:08 PM
Magic
MJ
Kareem
Wilt
Kobe
Shaq
Bird
Duncan
Hakeem
Russel

Chronz
05-09-2014, 12:19 PM
Magic
MJ
Kareem
Wilt
Kobe
Shaq
Bird
Duncan
Hakeem
Russel

If you have Magic as your #1, be prepared to enjoy a relatively short and one sided career. But hey, showtime magic will bring the *****es to your parties .

KAJ just spat in his grave, you know, the dominant bigman who actually won without Magic.

Tony_Starks
05-09-2014, 12:34 PM
If you have Magic as your #1, be prepared to enjoy a relatively short and one sided career. But hey, showtime magic will bring the *****es to your parties .

KAJ just spat in his grave, you know, the dominant bigman who actually won without Magic.

Lol! Thats the good thing about list, they're subjective. I can actually make a argument that Kareem should be number one, I just think Magic was a better competitor and he actually preserved Kareem's career for years.

Also the fact that rookie Magic played all 5 positions with Kareem hurt to win the chip is no small feat. Took a over the hill Laker squad to the Finals with Sam Perkins and rookie Vlade as his bigs btw....

Bostonjorge
05-09-2014, 12:50 PM
I disagree


Very much debatable. I feel like TP and Duncan have switched roles over the years, depending on Duncan's health/fitness.


Actually it was mostly because he and Manu were injured. But yes, upsets happen, Duncan has since recovered.


Nope. Its his combination of 2-way dominance and winning.


There is no right and wrong when discussing the best of the best. You can certainly attempt to make a case but I dont see one thats more accomplished than Duncan's.


What if we prefer to put stock in statistical analysis thats done by actual statisticians, as opposed to the unsubstantiated claims of a fanboy? Particularly when that fanboy has proven to selectively apply statistics whenever it helps his argument (Russell ring any bells)


LOL. This matters why? Kobe has generally had better teams than Duncan.

Kobe has done more in the playoffs, season and individually then Duncan. Kobe has also done more for the popularity of the league so any way u look at it kobe has the advantage.

Not only does kobe edge out Duncan in almost every important stat he's winning the head to head matchup. If Duncan is the best player his generation shouldn't he beat all his peers more often the way kobe has?

Duncan has never been on a team that didn't have a former league MVP, finals MVP or six man of the year on it. He's had it all. Great role players and deep bench with the greatest bench player ever in ginobli. Don't see how his teams were ever less then Kobe's team in any year.

Also since 2006 Parker has been the go to guy on that team. Duncan still played at high level but Parker led the way and was the one that was counted on the most. Parker was the most consistent one during this period and Duncan kept falling off then picking himself back up. Duncan's presence has been important but Parker's play was the key to there success.

Chronz
05-09-2014, 01:14 PM
good stuff, this has been a decent thread for once. Will give my response when I can

amos1er
05-09-2014, 10:52 PM
Cool, I see not a single guy that could have pulled off 3 straight chips. I've seen you criticize Duncan for not even being able to defend his championship once (as if it were 1 on 1 or that it should happen for every champion) yet Im suppose to believe far inferior players who have let up before in their careers are able to pull off such a rare feat ?


As for your actual top-20, what are you valuing most? Seems to be all over the place to me.

I feel that any of the players I listed could not only have gotten the job done in 2011, but could have won the following two seasons with that team against the inferior competition Lebron went up against en route two his two championships. If healthy of course. In 2012, Lebron had the luxury of a lock out season and never really faced any power house teams... He also had a cake walk to the finals. In 2013, Lebron had a cake walk to the finals once again, and had the luxury of facing an older Spurs team that was not built to go seven games. He won by the skin of his teeth thanks to a miracle shot from Ray Allen and a MVP performance from D-Wade in game 4. Any of the players I listed in my top 20 could have done the same or better IMO... If healthy. Of course I still give credit to Lebron in my rankings, which is why I have him at number thirteen because he has the rings and finals MVP's to fall back on even though the players I listed were never fortunate enough to be in the position where they could collude and take less money to form a mini dream team and have the luxury of never having to face a truly great team at any point in the post season.

My rankings are mainly based on overall impact, championships, and longevity. Also personal opinion which I would be happy to justify if you gave me a specific example. They are not set in stone and their placement could vary from a spot or two due to human error even though I did think long and hard about them. If you have any gripes, name them and we can debate from there. Though I will say that both of our top thirteen look pretty much the same so I don't know why you are questioning my logic in the first place.

amos1er
05-09-2014, 10:57 PM
If you have Magic as your #1, be prepared to enjoy a relatively short and one sided career. But hey, showtime magic will bring the *****es to your parties .

KAJ just spat in his grave, you know, the dominant bigman who actually won without Magic.

Yes, Kareem did win without Magic, but its hard for me to rank Kareem above him when 5/6 of his titles came from teams that Magic was clearly the best player on. Hence why I still rank Shaq above Kobe even though their example isn't nearly as extreme. That and Magic was a big part of why Kareem was able to extend his career for as long as he did. A lot of his longevity is owed to Magic.

amos1er
05-09-2014, 11:00 PM
Actually it's one of the best list I've ever seen.

Considering the source.

amos1er
05-09-2014, 11:08 PM
I wonder where he lands if he gets another ring this season.

Depending on his playoff contributions, top five could be highly debatable... He could have a case over Kobe, Shaq, and Bird.

Such a shame that Jim Buss destroyed Kobe's last chances at a ring. Would have been pretty much a lock for top five otherwise.

amos1er
05-09-2014, 11:50 PM
Lol! Thats the good thing about list, they're subjective. I can actually make a argument that Kareem should be number one, I just think Magic was a better competitor and he actually preserved Kareem's career for years.

Also the fact that rookie Magic played all 5 positions with Kareem hurt to win the chip is no small feat. Took a over the hill Laker squad to the Finals with Sam Perkins and rookie Vlade as his bigs btw....

All very good points. Not to mention all the injuries the Lakers faced by the time they reached the finals in 91.

Oh, and how many games did the Lakers win the season before Magic was drafted?

amos1er
05-10-2014, 12:21 AM
Ranking these two is so tough, it can go either way. Most people would probably have Kobe ahead at this point though

I concur.

All-In
05-10-2014, 12:28 AM
I guess I’m in the minority with Magic being the 2nd best of all time. I have KAJ at 3. I know Magic had a short career but 9 finals appearance’s in 12 years…and as a rookie scored 42pts in the championship series clinching win…without KAJ…and the lone title KAJ had without Magic…..he had the Big O…..so I’m not blown away when someone brings that up….the year before he retired he avg 19.4pts 12.5ast 25.1per and lost to MJ in the finals…at the age of 31…short career is his biggest knock…but I think there’s a clear top 3 MJ, Magic and KAJ….Wilt was a freak of nature but when the league only consists of 10 team’s….3 rounds in the post season…and 11 wins for the chip….2 rings doesn’t seem that impressive…that’s why I have Russ over Wilt

Chronz
05-10-2014, 12:29 AM
I feel that any of the players I listed could not only have gotten the job done in 2011, but could have won the following two seasons with that team against the inferior competition Lebron went up against en route two his two championships. If healthy of course. In 2012, Lebron had the luxury of a lock out season and never really faced any power house teams... He also had a cake walk to the finals. In 2013, Lebron had a cake walk to the finals once again, and had the luxury of facing an older Spurs team that was not built to go seven games. He won by the skin of his teeth thanks to a miracle shot from Ray Allen and a MVP performance from D-Wade in game 4. Any of the players I listed in my top 20 could have done the same or better IMO... If healthy. Of course I still give credit to Lebron in my rankings, which is why I have him at number thirteen because he has the rings and finals MVP's to fall back on even though the players I listed were never fortunate enough to be in the position where they could collude and take less money to form a mini dream team and have the luxury of never having to face a truly great team at any point in the post season.
I know you feel that way, but its nonsensical based on the fact that those very same players have failed as well. Collusion is an opinion not rooted in logic.


My rankings are mainly based on overall impact, championships, and longevity. Also personal opinion which I would be happy to justify if you gave me a specific example. They are not set in stone and their placement could vary from a spot or two due to human error even though I did think long and hard about them. If you have any gripes, name them and we can debate from there. Though I will say that both of our top thirteen look pretty much the same so I don't know why you are questioning my logic in the first place.

Because I question my own.


Will show more later.

Yes, Kareem did win without Magic, but its hard for me to rank Kareem above him when 5/6 of his titles came from teams that Magic was clearly the best player on. Hence why I still rank Shaq above Kobe even though their example isn't nearly as extreme. That and Magic was a big part of why Kareem was able to extend his career for as long as he did. A lot of his longevity is owed to Magic.
Its easier for people who focus on what the individual contributed more than team results. Otherwise, Russells the goat.

bhavr
05-10-2014, 12:31 AM
One of the greatest to play the game

amos1er
05-10-2014, 02:31 AM
I guess I’m in the minority with Magic being the 2nd best of all time. I have KAJ at 3. I know Magic had a short career but 9 finals appearance’s in 12 years…and as a rookie scored 42pts in the championship series clinching win…without KAJ…and the lone title KAJ had without Magic…..he had the Big O…..so I’m not blown away when someone brings that up….the year before he retired he avg 19.4pts 12.5ast 25.1per and lost to MJ in the finals…at the age of 31…short career is his biggest knock…but I think there’s a clear top 3 MJ, Magic and KAJ….Wilt was a freak of nature but when the league only consists of 10 team’s….3 rounds in the post season…and 11 wins for the chip….2 rings doesn’t seem that impressive…that’s why I have Russ over Wilt

I was with ya up until that last part.

amos1er
05-10-2014, 02:50 AM
I know you feel that way, but its nonsensical based on the fact that those very same players have failed as well. Collusion is an opinion not rooted in logic.



Because I question my own.


Will show look more later.

Its easier for people who focus on what the individual contributed more than team results. Otherwise, Russells the goat.

Of course it is my opinion, and an unpopular one around these parts for sure. Obviously my conclusion is derived from hypotheticals, but the main point is that Lebron is not penalized enough by the casual fan for taking the easy way out. IMO a good amount of top rated players in the history of the game could have had similar success under his current circumstances. Surely they would have performed better in 2011 and most likely won a title. That said, I believe that 13-15 is an appropriate place to rank him all time at the present moment.

I am not 100% on mine either and am willing to hear a good argument as to why I might be mistaken. I don't feel that I'm off by that much however given I might be off by a spot or two. I'm certainly a lot closer than those who place Lebron in the top 5 and or don't have Kobe or Bird in their top ten. I am certain that MJ is number one and Magic, Wilt, KAJ, and Shaq are locks for top five. Kobe, Bird, Duncan, Hakeem, and Russell are the other five with Russell being more towards the 8-10 spot. That much I am certain.

I try to factor individual contribution in with winning as much as possible. There is no perfect formula. I am definitely not of the opinion that Russell is the GOAT. Though to be the main defensive anchor for a team that won 11/15 times during his career is definitely something special despite the fact that his team was stacked beyond belief. Winning is the ultimate goal of any basketball franchise and Russell was the main reason they won even though he was far from a offensively dominant player and even somewhat of a liability at times. However, defense is half the game and he is arguably the greatest defensive big man in the history of the game. How many other top ten big men could have gotten 11 titles in his place is the real question.

FlashBolt
05-10-2014, 02:54 AM
Of course it is my opinion, and an unpopular one around these parts for sure. Obviously my conclusion is derived from hypothetical, but the main point is that Lebron is not penalized enough by the casual fan for taking the easy way out. IMO a good amount of top rated players in the history of the game could have had similar success under his current circumstances. Surely they would have performed better in 2011 and most likely won a title. That said, I believe that 13-15 is an appropriate place to rank him all time at the present moment.

I am not 100% on mine either and am willing to hear a good argument as to why I might be mistaken. I don't feel that I'm off by that much however given I might be off by a spot or two. I'm certainly a lot closer than those who place Lebron in the top 5 and or don't have Kobe or Bird in their top ten. I am certain that MJ is number one and Magic, Wilt, KAJ, and Shaq are locks for top five. Kobe, Bird, Duncan, Hakeem, and Russell are the other five with Russell being more towards the 8-10 spot. That much I am certain.

I try to factor individual contribution I'm with winning as much as possible. There is no perfect formula. I am definitely not of the opinion that Russell is the GOAT. Though to be the main defensive anchor for a team that won 11/15 times during his career is definitely something special despite the fact that his team was stacked beyond belief. Winning is the ultimate goal of any basketball franchise and Russell was the main reason they won even though he was far from a offensively dominant player and even somewhat of a liability at times. However, defense is half the game and he is arguably the greatest defensive big man in the history of the game. How many other top ten big men could have gotten 11 titles in his place is the real question.

How is it taking the easy way out? He's out of contract. He wasn't handed players like Kobe, Bird, Magic, Russell, and many others were. Cleveland Cavailers are arguably the worst franchise in NBA. How does that make it any easier? You do realize they lost their first year and went through go-home situations against Boston in games 6-7 their first championship and also battled through Pacers/Spurs. Against Pacers, they needed LeBron's game winning layup or else they would have lost 4-3 and against Spurs, they rallied back with a miracle shot by Allen. LeBron also came up big time in game 7 and nailed long range shots back and forth. None of this implies a cakewalk that would mean "stacked." Didn't Kobe and Shaq cakewalk for years? MJ certainly cakewalked, along with Russell.

mngopher35
05-10-2014, 03:55 AM
Of course it is my opinion, and an unpopular one around these parts for sure. Obviously my conclusion is derived from hypotheticals, but the main point is that Lebron is not penalized enough by the casual fan for taking the easy way out. IMO a good amount of top rated players in the history of the game could have had similar success under his current circumstances. Surely they would have performed better in 2011 and most likely won a title. That said, I believe that 13-15 is an appropriate place to rank him all time at the present moment.

I am not 100% on mine either and am willing to hear a good argument as to why I might be mistaken. I don't feel that I'm off by that much however given I might be off by a spot or two. I'm certainly a lot closer than those who place Lebron in the top 5 and or don't have Kobe or Bird in their top ten. I am certain that MJ is number one and Magic, Wilt, KAJ, and Shaq are locks for top five. Kobe, Bird, Duncan, Hakeem, and Russell are the other five with Russell being more towards the 8-10 spot. That much I am certain.

I try to factor individual contribution in with winning as much as possible. There is no perfect formula. I am definitely not of the opinion that Russell is the GOAT. Though to be the main defensive anchor for a team that won 11/15 times during his career is definitely something special despite the fact that his team was stacked beyond belief. Winning is the ultimate goal of any basketball franchise and Russell was the main reason they won even though he was far from a offensively dominant player and even somewhat of a liability at times. However, defense is half the game and he is arguably the greatest defensive big man in the history of the game. How many other top ten big men could have gotten 11 titles in his place is the real question.

You once told me you disliked dealing in hypothetical. Yet when the time comes for you to push an agenda you use them to derive conclusions about all time rankings (instead of what has actually happened). You have been laughed out of one of your own threads for your bias already and been called out again in another for taking a quote out of context a week later (once again same agenda).

When you posted a response to me in a thread (which went completely off the topic at the time, to push this agenda of yours), I answered with a long response pointing out the many issues with your take and you completely ignored it. Instead you later re-entered the thread to co-sign someone later who wrote a random negative thought on him.

As for the second bolded statement you could say the exact same thing for many players: Bird, Magic, Kareem, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan etc. (two pairs of the above played together to get some of their titles).

As for the final bold you say 13 is appropriate to rank him and then that you may be off a spot or two.


People who have Lebron James in their top ten = smokes crack.

Yet anyone who disagrees by on extra spot on this list apparently smokes crack? Alright, didn't know that these lists were so defined that 11 is fine but 10 smokes crack. When does it stop with you?

O well, what can anyone really do at this point...

amos1er
05-10-2014, 04:43 AM
You once told me you disliked dealing in hypothetical. Yet when the time comes for you to push an agenda you use them to derive conclusions about all time rankings (instead of what has actually happened). You have been laughed out of one of your own threads for your bias already and been called out again in another for taking a quote out of context a week later (once again same agenda).

When you posted a response to me in a thread (which went completely off the topic at the time, to push this agenda of yours), I answered with a long response pointing out the many issues with your take and you completely ignored it. Instead you later re-entered the thread to co-sign someone later who wrote a random negative thought on him.

As for the second bolded statement you could say the exact same thing for many players: Bird, Magic, Kareem, Kobe, Shaq, Duncan etc. (two pairs of the above played together to get some of their titles).

As for the final bold you say 13 is appropriate to rank him and then that you may be off a spot or two.



Yet anyone who disagrees by on extra spot on this list apparently smokes crack? Alright, didn't know that these lists were so defined that 11 is fine but 10 smokes crack. When does it stop with you?

O well, what can anyone really do at this point...

Sorry, I had a long thought out reply and it erased by mistske as I am typing on a crappy tablet. I don't have the motivation to type it all out again. I'm pretty pissed actually because it was good and it took me a half hour. I'll try again tomorrow if I can get over my frustration.

amos1er
05-10-2014, 04:43 AM
Very angry right now. ****!!!!!

Badluck33
05-10-2014, 06:33 AM
In the past 11 years collectively, he is the best player in the NBA.

Chronz
05-10-2014, 01:03 PM
Of course it is my opinion, and an unpopular one around these parts for sure. Obviously my conclusion is derived from hypotheticals, but the main point is that Lebron is not penalized enough by the casual fan for taking the easy way out. IMO a good amount of top rated players in the history of the game could have had similar success under his current circumstances. Surely they would have performed better in 2011 and most likely won a title. That said, I believe that 13-15 is an appropriate place to rank him all time at the present moment.
It doesn't appear to be derived from anything. You've conveniently ignored those very players careers (because we've already seen them fail despite favorable circumstances). Why stop at top-20? Go to Top-50 and make your hatred grow. Bron is ranked around there for me too, but at this point, hes going to move up rapidly. A 3-peet is special no matter how much you want to downplay it, IF Bron manages to win one today, it would mean you would expect a 4-peet from those guys, which makes you even more ridiculous considering their careers and the sheer improbability of 4-peets occurring.

Chronz
05-10-2014, 01:57 PM
You once told me you disliked dealing in hypothetical. Yet when the time comes for you to push an agenda you use them to derive conclusions about all time rankings (instead of what has actually happened).

I like this, I knew it would take LeBron winning for them to come around to how you should actually rank players, by circumstance+ability.

Bruno
05-10-2014, 03:16 PM
Yes, Kareem did win without Magic, but its hard for me to rank Kareem above him when 5/6 of his titles came from teams that Magic was clearly the best player on. Hence why I still rank Shaq above Kobe even though their example isn't nearly as extreme. That and Magic was a big part of why Kareem was able to extend his career for as long as he did. A lot of his longevity is owed to Magic.
magic wasn't clearly the best player on all five of those laker teams. his brilliance in kareems absence stole him a finals MVP, and Kareem landed the finals MVP in 1985.

Chronz
05-10-2014, 10:40 PM
Yeah, even the voters felt bad for having to change their vote to Magic, just because Kareem wasn't available.

COOLbeans
06-21-2014, 04:02 AM
I wonder where he lands if he gets another ring this season.

Any chance Duncan passes Shaq with his latest championship?

COOLbeans
06-21-2014, 04:03 AM
Jordan
Kareem
Wilt
Russell
Magic
Duncan?
Shaq

vics
06-21-2014, 06:44 AM
1. MJ
2. Magic
3. Kareem
4. Wilt
5. Shaq
6. Kobe
7. Bird
8. Duncan
9. Hakeem
10. Russell
1. Kareem
2. MJ
3. Wilt
4. Shaq
5. Magic
6. Lebron
7. Bird
8. Russel
9. Hakeem
10. Duncan

Jeffy25
06-21-2014, 12:27 PM
Top 8-12 range.

PurpleLynch
06-21-2014, 03:04 PM
Duncan is in my top 10(6-10 range).

jmaest
06-21-2014, 04:30 PM
magic wasn't clearly the best player on all five of those laker teams. his brilliance in kareems absence stole him a finals MVP, and Kareem landed the finals MVP in 1985.

I'm guessing you're younger based on previous posts and, also, including this one.

He didn't "steal" a Finals MVP, he absolutely earned it. And by 1985 BOTH Magic & Worthy were better than Kareem. 1985 the skyhook was unstoppable but it was essentially all Kareem had really going for him. He was no longer the all-around player he was previously. Also that team did have McAdoo playing on it off the bench which took a lot of pressure of Kareem as well.

It was a unique situation to be in, plus that team was just stacked anyway.

But throughout, Magic was definitely the best player on the team. He just did too much. I think in '85 he had a dozen triple doubles and a triple double in the closing game of the Finals--which I know he did more than once.

bucketss
06-21-2014, 04:38 PM
magic
kareem
jordan
bird
wilt
shaq
duncan
lebron
hakeem
oscar

i have him 7th in my top ten right now.

Chronz
06-21-2014, 10:41 PM
I'm guessing you're younger based on previous posts and, also, including this one.

He didn't "steal" a Finals MVP, he absolutely earned it.
Ironic how you show how little you know about NBA history by ignoring the FACT that the NBA pressured the voters into choosing Magic, they have admitted as much and Kareem has thanked them in the past for doing so. EVERYONE knows that Kareem was by far the driving force behind that title team. That Magic had a single game without him ignores the heroics behind Kareem gutting out the game prior. Simply put, you could spot Magic that extra game and KAJ was STILL more productive. Magic being good enough to win a single game without him isn't that shocking considering how talented those Lakers were.


And by 1985 BOTH Magic & Worthy were better than Kareem. 1985 the skyhook was unstoppable but it was essentially all Kareem had really going for him. He was no longer the all-around player he was previously. Also that team did have McAdoo playing on it off the bench which took a lot of pressure of Kareem as well.

Arguable but you wont find a single voter that will feel guilty about voting for KAJ the way they did for Magic in 80


It was a unique situation to be in, plus that team was just stacked anyway.

But throughout, Magic was definitely the best player on the team. He just did too much. I think in '85 he had a dozen triple doubles and a triple double in the closing game of the Finals--which I know he did more than once.
More credible statistical evaluations paint KAJ as the better player throughout their careers tho.

Kashmir13579
06-21-2014, 11:25 PM
Top 8 ever I wanted to say top 5, but 8 is probably a safer bet.

ghettosean
06-22-2014, 02:17 AM
Jordan
Kareem
Wilt
Shaq
Magic
Duncan
LeBron
Hakeem
Big O
Bird
Russell
Moses

Probably my top 12.

I'm a little surprised to be honest naps you've always said Lebron has surpassed Jordan was it just this series that changed your mind?

I'll come out with my own top 10 tomorrow but I personally do not think Lebron has surpassed Hakeem btw just based on the Dreams pure dominance even Shaq admitted he couldn't deal with him (since you have Shaq in your top 3) and i may be biased because I think Hakeem is the most skilled player to ever suit up.

ghettosean
06-22-2014, 11:40 PM
MJ
Kaj
Magic
Russell
Shaq
Duncan
Kobe

Bird
Wilt
Hakeem

Tony_Starks
06-23-2014, 12:34 AM
Definitely the best Center to ever play power forward..... Shout out to the Nazi Mohammed's, Simaukee Walkers, Tiago Splitters of the world that made this possible!!!