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View Full Version : Still think Harden is better than Westbrook?



poleandreel
05-04-2014, 02:02 AM
Dave Joerger on Westbrook: "I have no idea why he takes the flak he does ... It's unfathomable."

Russell Westbrook joins Rajon Rondo as the only players in NBA history with 2 Game 7 triple-doubles. (@EliasSports)

Westbrook is the only player who can have 2 triple doubles in a playoff series and people will still say he played poorly. That's how great of a player he is. He plays amazing D when hes locked in while Harden plays like he's stonefooted.

Opposing coaches know how good he is but the media loves polarizing him and KD. This duo works.

27-10-16-2-1 in a game 7...CLUTCH

Still think OKC traded the wrong player?

JEDean89
05-04-2014, 02:33 AM
i've said it on this forum a million times that these two will figure it out and when they do they will be a younger wade/lebron. westy is simply a freak and these guys are so young they could be the 2nd best drafted duo after pippen jordan.

beyourself
05-04-2014, 02:56 AM
I'll say this. Point Guard is the 1 position in the NBA where stats are close to irrelevant. It's about dominating the pace of the game, not the box score at that position.

Never in the history of the league has a team won a championship with a Point Guard having anywhere near the USG% that Westbrook has. Take it or leave it.

slashsnake
05-04-2014, 03:13 AM
True but is Westbrook a true point guard, or more of a combo guard like Wade with the Heat early in his career, or Kobe with LA? Where he's the guy who handles the ball, facilitates most of the play, and is the best passer, but is also a primary scorer.

Sssmush
05-04-2014, 03:34 AM
Jordanesque

Asik's better
05-04-2014, 03:45 AM
Not another harden bashing thread. You can talk about westy without talking about harden

Jordanesque
I'm still waiting for the 12 sg's better than harden. I am really interested in your answer.

Bostonjorge
05-04-2014, 04:13 AM
Westbrook was always better then harden in every way possible even after injury.

IKnowHoops
05-04-2014, 07:16 AM
I'll say this. Point Guard is the 1 position in the NBA where stats are close to irrelevant. It's about dominating the pace of the game, not the box score at that position.

Never in the history of the league has a team won a championship with a Point Guard having anywhere near the USG% that Westbrook has. Take it or leave it.

Big O?

slashsnake
05-04-2014, 07:28 AM
Big O?

Sure, find one I hadn't looked for. He'd be an interesting one, but his championship with Milwaukee was later in his career. He was an 18-9 guy that playoffs. I am guessing with Kareem really tearing it up that year and Bob Dandridge playing a big role, that he wouldn't have been that high even.

archdevil84
05-04-2014, 07:33 AM
westbrook is much better then harden obviously, that stil doesnt take away the fact that he wants to be the OKC hero so badly which makes him take realy bad shots. He needs to face the truth. Durant is the superstar in OKC, westbrook is his secondary, just like with wade and lebron (and ibaka being the third just like with bosh)

archdevil84
05-04-2014, 07:35 AM
and james harden is just a ***** who relies entirely on the refs calling his fouls. he tries to bait them with his flopping and head snapping and meanwhile the only thing he does on defense is let people drive by him and then try to swipe the ball from behind

king4day
05-04-2014, 08:48 AM
I still don't think the Thunder will win a title as constructed (though I would love to see it). Not because of Durant and Westbrook though. I feel like if they had a C like Pau, they would have post moves when the offense is stagnant. Ibaka could help with any defensive deficiencies.

beyourself
05-04-2014, 09:42 AM
Big O?

I really don't know anything about his career because it was so long ago. But just looking at all the championship PG's since like the 80's. None of them are anywhere near the USG% of Westbrook.

blastmasta26
05-04-2014, 09:44 AM
I always preferred Westbrook over Harden and I've always thought he faced too much scrutiny, but a great game 7 doesn't absolve him of all his faults. He deserves criticism for the number of shots he takes at times, going 10/31 is horrendous. I like him but he definitely needs to work on that.

Crackadalic
05-04-2014, 10:30 AM
Still think they need a pg like Jackson running point. Maybe have Westbrook play more two

They still need to upgrade that center spot though with a veteran.

Jamiecballer
05-04-2014, 10:34 AM
Joerger is analytics guy. Take this comment with a refrigerator sized grain of salt. He's just paying respect to the victors here IMO

North Yorker
05-04-2014, 10:35 AM
Still think they need a pg like Jackson running point. Maybe have Westbrook play more two

They still need to upgrade that center spot though with a veteran.

Yea, this is what I was going to say. Haven't followed OKC close enough to know if they actually run out a lineup of Jackson/Westbrook/Durant/Ibaka/Center, but that would be the lineup you would want to close a game out with imo.

beyourself
05-04-2014, 10:47 AM
Yea, this is what I was going to say. Haven't followed OKC close enough to know if they actually run out a lineup of Jackson/Westbrook/Durant/Ibaka/Center, but that would be the lineup you would want to close a game out with imo.

That's a good lineup in theory, but Westbrook needs the ball to do his thing. He can only really play on ball.

Sly Guy
05-04-2014, 11:56 AM
I still don't like little guys like westy that dominate the ball. The comparison to harden aside, I've never been a fan of westbrook, and I still believe he hurts the thunder's chance at a championship every year when things come down to the wire.

KnicksorBust
05-04-2014, 12:06 PM
Dave Joerger on Westbrook: "I have no idea why he takes the flak he does ... It's unfathomable."

Russell Westbrook joins Rajon Rondo as the only players in NBA history with 2 Game 7 triple-doubles. (@EliasSports)

Westbrook is the only player who can have 2 triple doubles in a playoff series and people will still say he played poorly. That's how great of a player he is. He plays amazing D when hes locked in while Harden plays like he's stonefooted.

Opposing coaches know how good he is but the media loves polarizing him and KD. This duo works.

27-10-16-2-1 in a game 7...CLUTCH

Still think OKC traded the wrong player?

Yes. One game (in the first round lol) doesnt change that. He was having a horrific series before that...how quickly we forget. Westbrook will never be the type of PG to help Durant and the Thunder maximize their talents. They will lose to the Clippers in Round 2.

Bramaca
05-04-2014, 12:22 PM
Think Harden and Durant would work better together then Westbrook and Durant. Also believe what they would have received from trading Westbrook would have put them even farther ahead.

YoungOne
05-04-2014, 12:35 PM
the westbrook that gave memphis the early lead with 4 turnovers always while jumping to pass?

one great game doesnt make up for his chucking earlier.

RaiderLakersA's
05-04-2014, 12:37 PM
I still believe that in time both are going to be something special. I just think it's a mistake for fans to put them in the same sentence as some of the All-time Best Hall of Famers, which many in this forum are guilty of doing. I don't think that either will be THAT great. But only time will tell.

PowerHouse
05-05-2014, 03:16 AM
Still think OKC traded the wrong player?

Of course I dont. Harden cant play the point. He lacks the quickness needed to keep up with small guys which would also drain his energy. Westbrook on the other hand can play the 1 or 2.

Red_Pill
05-05-2014, 08:51 AM
They will lose to the Clippers in Round 2.

With the Clippers lack of a defender like Tony Allen, and the fact that they play fast, honestly, I think this series will be easier for OKC, despite the Clippers being better than Memphis. Basketball is all about matchups. The Grizzlies, as constructed, are tough for a team like OKC. The Clippers, as constructed, should be easier. This series goes 6 max with OKC advancing.

MonroeFAN
05-05-2014, 09:04 AM
I'll say this. Point Guard is the 1 position in the NBA where stats are close to irrelevant. It's about dominating the pace of the game, not the box score at that position.

Never in the history of the league has a team won a championship with a Point Guard having anywhere near the USG% that Westbrook has. Take it or leave it.

D. Wade?

Soonerule
05-05-2014, 12:46 PM
I always preferred Westbrook over Harden and I've always thought he faced too much scrutiny, but a great game 7 doesn't absolve him of all his faults. He deserves criticism for the number of shots he takes at times, going 10/31 is horrendous. I like him but he definitely needs to work on that.

I've discovered a few holes in the "10/31" criticism from game 5. Lost in that criticism is Westbrook's 13 assists. Memphis, as a team, only had 21 and no player had more than 4. Further, those 31 shots were taken in 48 minutes. The next game, Westbrook is deemed brilliant taking 21 shots, but it was in only 39 minutes. Had he shot at the pace he was crucified for in game 4, he would have shot 25 times. That is just 1 less shot per quarter, further, he only had 5 assists in game 5 and that with a now hot KD. The only difference I see is the shots falling vs not falling which could be attributed to shot selection, but the entire dynamic was different in game 6. With Caron Butler starting instead of Thabo Sefolosha and a rejuvenated Kevin Durant opening gaps in the Memphis defense that weren't there in Game 5, better shots were available that just weren't in the previous game. It wasn't pretty, but Westbrook's overall play in Game 5 is why there was a historic 4th straight overtime to begin with. By game 7, with a fully restored KD in play, Westbrook had as many assists as he did shot attempts, 16. There is a clear pattern through all 7 games, when KD is on Westbrook shoots less. Game 1, KD shoots 50%, Russ took 19 shots. Game 2, KD shoots just 40%, Russ took 28 shots. Game 3, KD shoots 37%, Russ took 26 shots. Game 4, KD shoots an abysmal 23%, Russ took 24 shots. If KD is struggling, Russ starts taking more shots and I think he does it because when KD is struggling he tends to quit being aggressive and it is hard to pass to a guy that isn't focused on doing his part to help create passing lanes. Personally, I think Russell is willing to do whatever it takes to inspire his teammates and I think it is sometimes misinterpreted as glory seeking. Could it be channeled more effectively? Absolutely. But I think a lot of Westbrook's shortcomings can be directly attributed to Scott Brooks shortcomings as a coach. I think he has failed to recognize what sets Westbrook off on those tangents that garners all the criticism and help him be more effective when he is forced to step up his game. Because his game is pedal to the metal, it leaves little room to play any harder but when his team needs a boost, he tries and it sometimes comes off as out of control. To be completely honest, many times when I see Westbrook out of control, his teammates are playing flat. Here is where an effective coach would step in, help Russell to understand he is doing all he needs to do and put his foot in the rest of the team's ***. Westbrook cannot pass the ball if his teammates are standing around allowing the man defending them to easily guard the passing lanes. We saw way too much of that in games 2 thru 5 in this last series. To open things up it took one simple adjustment by Brooks, start Caron Butler instead of Thabo. It only took Brooks 6 years to make the move and suddenly, Westbrook is amazing. Remember the NBA Finals, Westbrook took a lot of heat then too. We'll never know now, but how different would that series have gone had Brooks started Harden instead of Sefolosha? OK, I'm done, not picking on you, just thought I would add my 2 cents... ok, maybe more than just 2 cents..... into the conversation.

Soonerule
05-05-2014, 01:05 PM
With the Clippers lack of a defender like Tony Allen, and the fact that they play fast, honestly, I think this series will be easier for OKC, despite the Clippers being better than Memphis. Basketball is all about matchups. The Grizzlies, as constructed, are tough for a team like OKC. The Clippers, as constructed, should be easier. This series goes 6 max with OKC advancing.

I think the Grizz are a tough matchup for anyone. They are brutal.

dannyy08
05-05-2014, 02:12 PM
Dave Joerger on Westbrook: "Opposing coaches know how good he is but the media loves polarizing him and KD. This duo works.

27-10-16-2-1 in a game 7...CLUTCH

Still think OKC traded the wrong player?

I absolutely think they traded the wrong player!

Harden is a TRUE #2 player. Westbrook appears to be battling the #2 v #1 type of player role. He is capable to being a number one guy. For my taste, he dominates the shot clock and plays too out of control. When he plays like a #2 guy they are unstoppable. Unfortunately, he plays like he believes he is the best player in the league and he's not.

It has never been an argument about who is better, Harden or Westbrook. It has always been about who fits better with Durant long-term. If the Thunder plan to keep Durant for the majority of his career then they let the wrong person go.


Game 5: 10-31 shots for 30 points
Game 4: 6-24 shots for 15 points
Game 3: 9-26 shots for 30 points
Game 2: 11-28 shots for 29 points
Game 1: 9-21 shots for 25 points

All of these games are a very low shooting percentage. If he honestly had a better shot selection and did not get so distracted and try to do everything himself he wouldn't be getting all the criticism. He is a great player, he just needs to relax a little.

dannyy08
05-05-2014, 02:18 PM
I've discovered a few holes in the "10/31" criticism from game 5. Lost in that criticism is Westbrook's 13 assists. Memphis, as a team, only had 21 and no player had more than 4. Further, those 31 shots were taken in 48 minutes. The next game, Westbrook is deemed brilliant taking 21 shots, but it was in only 39 minutes. Had he shot at the pace he was crucified for in game 4, he would have shot 25 times. That is just 1 less shot per quarter, further, he only had 5 assists in game 5 and that with a now hot KD. The only difference I see is the shots falling vs not falling which could be attributed to shot selection, but the entire dynamic was different in game 6. With Caron Butler starting instead of Thabo Sefolosha and a rejuvenated Kevin Durant opening gaps in the Memphis defense that weren't there in Game 5, better shots were available that just weren't in the previous game. It wasn't pretty, but Westbrook's overall play in Game 5 is why there was a historic 4th straight overtime to begin with. By game 7, with a fully restored KD in play, Westbrook had as many assists as he did shot attempts, 16. There is a clear pattern through all 7 games, when KD is on Westbrook shoots less. Game 1, KD shoots 50%, Russ took 19 shots. Game 2, KD shoots just 40%, Russ took 28 shots. Game 3, KD shoots 37%, Russ took 26 shots. Game 4, KD shoots an abysmal 23%, Russ took 24 shots. If KD is struggling, Russ starts taking more shots and I think he does it because when KD is struggling he tends to quit being aggressive and it is hard to pass to a guy that isn't focused on doing his part to help create passing lanes. Personally, I think Russell is willing to do whatever it takes to inspire his teammates and I think it is sometimes misinterpreted as glory seeking. Could it be channeled more effectively? Absolutely. But I think a lot of Westbrook's shortcomings can be directly attributed to Scott Brooks shortcomings as a coach. I think he has failed to recognize what sets Westbrook off on those tangents that garners all the criticism and help him be more effective when he is forced to step up his game. Because his game is pedal to the metal, it leaves little room to play any harder but when his team needs a boost, he tries and it sometimes comes off as out of control. To be completely honest, many times when I see Westbrook out of control, his teammates are playing flat. Here is where an effective coach would step in, help Russell to understand he is doing all he needs to do and put his foot in the rest of the team's ***. Westbrook cannot pass the ball if his teammates are standing around allowing the man defending them to easily guard the passing lanes. We saw way too much of that in games 2 thru 5 in this last series. To open things up it took one simple adjustment by Brooks, start Caron Butler instead of Thabo. It only took Brooks 6 years to make the move and suddenly, Westbrook is amazing. Remember the NBA Finals, Westbrook took a lot of heat then too. We'll never know now, but how different would that series have gone had Brooks started Harden instead of Sefolosha? OK, I'm done, not picking on you, just thought I would add my 2 cents... ok, maybe more than just 2 cents..... into the conversation.


That is way more than 2 cents. That's like a dollar fifty.

I honestly don't even know where to begin reading that monster of a paragraph and starting at the beginning seems like way too much of a task.

dannyy08
05-05-2014, 02:22 PM
Of course I dont. Harden cant play the point...

Harden is a shooting guard.

Wrigheyes4MVP
05-05-2014, 02:38 PM
I think they chose the wrong guy... still.

Could have probably traded Westbrook for a more traditional, pass first PG and then you have Durant and Harden on the wings.

bootypants
05-05-2014, 02:50 PM
Dragic/Harden/Durant....

Should have worked that lineup out. Jeez.

kobe4thewinbang
05-05-2014, 03:04 PM
Meh. They're both chuckers. At least Westbrook plays hard and doesn't flop like a sissy.

PowerHouse
05-05-2014, 04:03 PM
Harden is a shooting guard.

LMFAO. You seriously dont think I know that?

My point is that when the Thunder were deciding whether to trade Westbrook or Harden they had to trade Harden because they needed a point guard more than a wing player. They already had a wing player who could put up a ton of points in Durant.

Soonerule
05-05-2014, 04:42 PM
I absolutely think they traded the wrong player!

Harden is a TRUE #2 player. Westbrook appears to be battling the #2 v #1 type of player role. He is capable to being a number one guy. For my taste, he dominates the shot clock and plays too out of control. When he plays like a #2 guy they are unstoppable. Unfortunately, he plays like he believes he is the best player in the league and he's not.

It has never been an argument about who is better, Harden or Westbrook. It has always been about who fits better with Durant long-term. If the Thunder plan to keep Durant for the majority of his career then they let the wrong person go.


Game 5: 10-31 shots for 30 points
Game 4: 6-24 shots for 15 points
Game 3: 9-26 shots for 30 points
Game 2: 11-28 shots for 29 points
Game 1: 9-21 shots for 25 points

All of these games are a very low shooting percentage. If he honestly had a better shot selection and did not get so distracted and try to do everything himself he wouldn't be getting all the criticism. He is a great player, he just needs to relax a little.

try to keep this one short

as I pointed out in the long post, as KD shooting percentage began to plummet, Westbrook took more shots. Once Brooks finally started Caron for Thabo and the floor opened up, a move that should have been made with Harden 3 years ago, Westbrook suddenly is brilliant in game 6 and had as many assists as shots taken in game 7, 16.

Brooks is a pretty good motivator and good at keeping young players positive while they are taking their lumps early in their careers. But his ability to teach the game appears limited and his stubborn refusal to make adjustments is mind boggling. Had the Thunder made a move when Brooks' contract expired 2 years ago and gone with a more experienced coach, I think everyone's view of Westbrook would be totally different today.

beyourself
05-05-2014, 07:20 PM
Of all the PG's remaining in the playoffs I'd take Parker, Lillard, Paul and maybe even Wall over Westbrook. They all control the pace of the game better than Westbrook.

L8kers4life
05-05-2014, 08:01 PM
It's funny you say that, Russell Westbrook is the only player aside from (Parker) who has a shot at the title. Name the last time a dominate PG won a ring, Rondo was not as dominate when he won, Kidd was on his last legs, Parker is the only one I can think of. From that stand point, Westbrook has a chance to change that.

LA_Raiders
05-06-2014, 12:20 AM
Westbrick is better than harden. Haren needs a D

b@llhog24
05-06-2014, 10:16 PM
Not sure if I ever considered harden better than Westbrook I'd just rather have him on my team.

mightybosstone
05-07-2014, 09:50 AM
You could make a case one way or the other, but Harden is statistically a superior NBA player than Russell Westbrook. He scores at a far more efficient level, and while Harden's defense is clearly inferior, Westbrook's defense isn't exactly All-NBA caliber either.