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View Full Version : Is James Harden Still Considered The Best Shooting Guard in the League?



P&GRealist
05-03-2014, 12:45 PM
We all saw his 6 game performance against Portland.

Here are some numbers:

26.8 PPG

50-133 FG (37.6%) (22.2 FGA per game)

16-54 3s (29.6%) (9 3's Attempted per game)

45-50 FTs (90%) (8.3 FTs attempted per game)

goingfor28
05-03-2014, 12:46 PM
I didn't know he ever was.

FriedTofuz
05-03-2014, 12:48 PM
there actually isnt many prime SGs in the league right now, it isnt that deeep, but yes he is the best healthy SG atm.

Crackadalic
05-03-2014, 12:54 PM
For the season name me a better sg. Kobe and wade don't count this season due to missing so much time

His defense still makes me vomit tho

Bruno
05-03-2014, 01:02 PM
Harden just posted a PER of 18.8, a TS% of .519, and a WS/48 of .112.

if we combine both his Houston playoff runs together from the past two seasons his numbers aren't impressive. he has struggled in the post-season as a houston rocket.

derozen, manu and ellis haven't been that much better through the first round if we go by their advanced line, advantage Manu.

Tony_Starks
05-03-2014, 01:23 PM
The real question is who was ever foolish enough to consider him that in the first place. Kobe and Wade are hurt, they didn't die...

DallasTrilla23
05-03-2014, 01:24 PM
He's was the best shooting guard this season but I have to see what Kobe does when he returns from injury before I call harden the best Shooting Guard in the league.

ThuglifeJ
05-03-2014, 01:28 PM
Lol Harden is a wannabe. He's the only SG allowed to take that many shots right now and clearly he can't be effective in the playoffs when the whistle isn't as touchy.

Plus, he definitely aint clutch. I only saw him shoot bricks at the end of games this series.


Overrated

waveycrockett
05-03-2014, 01:30 PM
He's was the best shooting guard this season but I have to see what Kobe does when he returns from injury before I call harden the best Shooting Guard in the league.

Kobe is finished bro. His knee is shredded, he is 36 years old. Harden is the best by default. He looks to the refs to bail him out all the time and his defense is just atrocious by next season I think Bradley Beal and Klay Thompson over take him as better SG's.

TrueFan420
05-03-2014, 01:33 PM
I could be a little bias and I'm not saying Klay Thompson is now but I think he will become the best. He is killer shooter, he has a much improved post game, continues to improve his driving ability (tho still needs work cause he doesn't get to the line often enough) and unlike most other young SG plays good defense. He has a very well rounded game and has continued to improve different facets of his game each year that he's been in the league.

amos1er
05-03-2014, 01:44 PM
He never was the best sg in the game. He was the 2nd best sg due to default. I would still take a Wade at 50% than a Harden at 100% in a playoff series. Sure over the course of 82 games, Harden will look better on paper due to his youth and dexterity. But in the playoffs it's Wade by ten miles. Wade is the better defender, Wade is way more clutch, Wade is not a choke artist, Wade doesn't need help from the refs to maintain his elite status... Well, scratch that last part, he didn't get the name D-Whistle for nothing. Lol. Either way, Harden is yet another failed experiment resulted in the NBA trying to manufacture another superstar. Looks like Howard chose wrong. Hahahaha. I've waited a while to say that and I knew I would have the opportunity. Harden is a joke people. Please don't ever insult Kobe or Wade by bringing his name up in the same sentence again. Thank you.

amos1er
05-03-2014, 01:47 PM
The real question is who was ever foolish enough to consider him that in the first place. Kobe and Wade are hurt, they didn't die...

There were many claiming this nonsense at the beginning of the season. Now it's time to laugh in their faces. Yes I will name names. Ehem ehem... Mightybosstone.

MagicBucsSox
05-03-2014, 01:51 PM
I could be a little bias and I'm not saying Klay Thompson is now but I think he will become the best. He is killer shooter, he has a much improved post game, continues to improve his driving ability (tho still needs work cause he doesn't get to the line often enough) and unlike most other young SG plays good defense. He has a very well rounded game and has continued to improve different facets of his game each year that he's been in the league.
Lol Klay? Funny thing is he's just as much a liability defensively as harden. This is a 2way sport. Best SG is joe Johnson , right now unfortunately

MagicBucsSox
05-03-2014, 01:53 PM
Harden can score and the tv reporters & social media anointed him a superstar. You no longer have to earn it. It's a 20+ppg mandatory title

east fb knicks
05-03-2014, 01:55 PM
meh id take derozan over him right now

jbeezy
05-03-2014, 02:02 PM
Best shooting guard in the league? :laugh2:

mngopher35
05-03-2014, 02:18 PM
He might be but that is only because of how weak the SG position is, especially since the aging/injuries to wade and Kobe.

2-ONE-5
05-03-2014, 02:22 PM
why the hell is he taking 9 threes a game? thats just bad coaching allowing that to happen

mdm692
05-03-2014, 02:31 PM
Give me Dragic :D. Out of the playoff teams I'll take a limping Wade I guess.

sf-fanatic
05-03-2014, 02:49 PM
Lol Klay? Funny thing is he's just as much a liability defensively as harden. This is a 2way sport. Best SG is joe Johnson , right now unfortunately

I think you are wrong. Klay is a above average defender. He's been guarding the opponents best perimeter defender. I think he's been on Paul all series.

BALLER R
05-03-2014, 02:51 PM
I always have a hard time saying someones the best at their position and they can't even play decent defense

still1ballin
05-03-2014, 04:14 PM
lulz! no, not even close. Not sure why he was even considered in the first place

Goose17
05-03-2014, 04:17 PM
I didn't know he ever was.

This^

Top 3. Top 5 if you're being stingy. But a clear #1? Never.

Goose17
05-03-2014, 04:19 PM
Lol Klay? Funny thing is he's just as much a liability defensively as harden. This is a 2way sport. Best SG is joe Johnson , right now unfortunately

That's a joke right? Klay has locked CP3 down for a ton of this series. He would be a top 5 defender at his position if it wasn't for his stupid decisions on fouls, check the numbers, maybe actually watch him play?

And Joe Johnson? LMFAO. Guy is inefficient on both ends, he's not even top 5 in his position let alone #1

Tony_Starks
05-03-2014, 04:32 PM
The funniest part is all the Kobe haters have always acted like he just jacked up shots with a supporting cast and coast his way to rings. Well Harden is doing just that and can't even get out the first round.

There's two sides of the court.

Tony_Starks
05-03-2014, 04:35 PM
That's a joke right? Klay has locked CP3 down for a ton of this series. He would be a top 5 defender at his position if it wasn't for his stupid decisions on fouls, check the numbers, maybe actually watch him play?

And Joe Johnson? LMFAO. Guy is inefficient on both ends, he's not even top 5 in his position let alone #1

What series you been watching bro? Joe Cool has been getting serious double teams since game three. They're trying to take the ball out of his hands....

MagicBucsSox
05-03-2014, 04:45 PM
I think you are wrong. Klay is a above average defender. He's been guarding the opponents best perimeter defender. I think he's been on Paul all series.

And Paul has been putting up same #s

RLundi
05-03-2014, 04:46 PM
By default, yes.

Hawkeye15
05-03-2014, 05:05 PM
Harden is the best SG in the game, but its a combination of some guys getting older, and the position being the weakest in the NBA. He is a top 10-13 player, but probably the best SG. Shows how weak that position is right now. Kobe missed the year, Wade missed like 30 games and was on minute restrictions essentially, Manu as well, and the younger crop just aren't as good as Harden.

Hawkeye15
05-03-2014, 05:07 PM
The funniest part is all the Kobe haters have always acted like he just jacked up shots with a supporting cast and coast his way to rings. Well Harden is doing just that and can't even get out the first round.

There's two sides of the court.

you know I am not a Kobe guy, but cmon, there is a world of difference here. Harden is a slightly more efficient scorer during the regular season, but at age 24, Kobe took a dump on Harden as a player overall.

archdevil84
05-03-2014, 05:14 PM
wade=kobe >>> number of other shooting guards like monta ellis. klay thompson and demar >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> james ****ing shitharden

Minimal
05-03-2014, 05:22 PM
Wade missed a lot of games, but is still playing so he is the best SG in NBA, Kobe is injured. Durant was wrong.

goku
05-03-2014, 05:23 PM
so I guess harden Career is over there is no way for a 24 yr old player to get better he have hit his ceiling ............................

Im_in_Mia_bish
05-03-2014, 05:30 PM
LOL @ the harden hate by Kobe fans

goku
05-03-2014, 05:34 PM
LOL @ the harden hate by Kobe fans

they believe kobe can beat father time let them think that

P&GRealist
05-03-2014, 05:34 PM
so I guess harden Career is over there is no way for a 24 yr old player to get better he have hit his ceiling ............................

Kobe at 21 was a way better player than Harden at 24.

Harden lacks the intangibles, the defensive intensity, the killer instinct, settles to jack up way too many 3's.

P&GRealist
05-03-2014, 05:37 PM
LOL @ the harden hate by Kobe fans

We can talk about Mr. 1 out of every 3/4 games, I have the liberty of having the best player in the world, an all-star and a plethora of the best 3 pt shooters in the league to pick up my slack during the regular season and on 2nd nights of back to back while I only commit myself to the final 2 of the 9 months of the NBA season in the weak east?



...if that's what you really want, I would be more than happy to make a topic thread on that.


Just give me the green light and I'm on it.

sturm
05-03-2014, 05:42 PM
Stat alone dont make him the best SG. he tested and FAILED!

Seizabmc
05-03-2014, 05:48 PM
Bradley beil is the future Sg of this league.

Derozon is nice

Joe Jonson

Wade

Kobe

Lance s ( still lots of room for improvement )

I still think Westbrook should be a Sg

Monta Ellis

Jr smith

Jamal Crawford

And James harden

Harden is a great scorer when he is able to have the ball in his hands for most of the game.
But it seems like when he has to share it with another dominate scorer than he isn't as good offensively .

And on defense he is just horible .

He's a good Sg,
But definitely not top five.

If I had to chose one to build around I would take beil.
He's great on both ends of the court.
And is clutch .
Can score in many ways .

And is still very young with lots if room to improve.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-03-2014, 05:57 PM
Lol Harden is a wannabe. He's the only SG allowed to take that many shots right now and clearly he can't be effective in the playoffs when the whistle isn't as touchy.

Plus, he definitely aint clutch. I only saw him shoot bricks at the end of games this series.


Overrated

This pretty much sums it up.

ILLUSIONIST^248
05-03-2014, 05:58 PM
He never was the best sg in the game. He was the 2nd best sg due to default. I would still take a Wade at 50% than a Harden at 100% in a playoff series. Sure over the course of 82 games, Harden will look better on paper due to his youth and dexterity. But in the playoffs it's Wade by ten miles. Wade is the better defender, Wade is way more clutch, Wade is not a choke artist, Wade doesn't need help from the refs to maintain his elite status... Well, scratch that last part, he didn't get the name D-Whistle for nothing. Lol. Either way, Harden is yet another failed experiment resulted in the NBA trying to manufacture another superstar. Looks like Howard chose wrong. Hahahaha. I've waited a while to say that and I knew I would have the opportunity. Harden is a joke people. Please don't ever insult Kobe or Wade by bringing his name up in the same sentence again. Thank you.zing, and zang.

goku
05-03-2014, 06:00 PM
Kobe at 21 was a way better player than Harden at 24.

Harden lacks the intangibles, the defensive intensity, the killer instinct, settles to jack up way too many 3's.

lol doesn't almost every star in this younger generation they weren't falling a lot of them were open looks he missed that he usually knocked down and why are we comparing Harden to Kobe ??? I mean I know kobe is an all time great prolly wont see another player like him but Harden will still be here in 8 yrs he just now entering his prime

Goose17
05-03-2014, 06:01 PM
And Paul has been putting up same #s

huh? Okay, I'm done. You clearly haven't been watching that series.

Minimal
05-03-2014, 06:01 PM
so I guess harden Career is over there is no way for a 24 yr old player to get better he have hit his ceiling ............................
At 24 Wade put up one of the best finals series in NBA history. Just sayin.

P&GRealist
05-03-2014, 06:02 PM
At 24 Wade put up one of the best finals series in NBA history. Just sayin.

With like 30 free throw attempts a game. More than Michael had in any of 6 finals appearances.

Crazy really.

sf-fanatic
05-03-2014, 06:02 PM
And Paul has been putting up same #s

What stats are you going by ? Paul has been held below his season averages this series. Avg 16.7 points a game and shooting 40%. Do you expect Klay to keep him scoreless ?

Goose17
05-03-2014, 06:04 PM
Klay is the most underrated defender at his position. End of.

P&GRealist
05-03-2014, 06:06 PM
Klay is the most underrated defender at his position. End of.

Well, we will see how he does tonight in the most pressurized game 7 of his career so far. Will he come up big and be a winner like his pops, or is he gonna go home bricking 3's and letting Reddick, J-Crawford and Barnes and those guys hit their 3's?

Sadds The Gr8
05-03-2014, 06:10 PM
Yes but sg is easily the worst position in the league so take it for what it's worth

Goose17
05-03-2014, 06:12 PM
Well, we will see how he does tonight in the most pressurized game 7 of his career so far. Will he come up big and be a winner like his pops, or is he gonna go home bricking 3's and letting Reddick, J-Crawford and Barnes and those guys hit their 3's?

What does him bricking 3s have to do with his defense? And if you had been watching the series you would know he's been pretty good at posting up and taking it to the rim when his 3s aren't falling.

Goose17
05-03-2014, 06:13 PM
Also one game doesn't decide if you're a good defender. Look at his entire body of work up until this point. He's been an elite caliber defender this year, there's no debating it.

TrueFan420
05-03-2014, 06:20 PM
Lol Klay? Funny thing is he's just as much a liability defensively as harden. This is a 2way sport. Best SG is joe Johnson , right now unfortunately

Hahahah you have no clue what youre talking about if you just compared klays defense to harden. Harden doesn't play defense and Klay does. In fact he has played some very good defense this year and has given Paul trouble in this first round match up.

P&GRealist
05-03-2014, 06:24 PM
Also one game doesn't decide if you're a good defender. Look at his entire body of work up until this point. He's been an elite caliber defender this year, there's no debating it.

I'm going to the game today. I'm pulling for the Warriors. I'll be keeping a close eye on Mr. Thompson there.

MagicBucsSox
05-03-2014, 06:25 PM
What stats are you going by ? Paul has been held below his season averages this series. Avg 16.7 points a game and shooting 40%. Do you expect Klay to keep him scoreless ?

So when Paul plays bad it's bc Klays "elite" on defense(lmao) , only bad game Paul had is game 6. That's it.

Seizabmc
05-03-2014, 06:25 PM
I can't believe we're talking about Sg when that's the weakest position in the league besides centers .

When we should be talking about PGs the most dominate position in the league.

I say Damien lilard for #1
That boy is nice.

I also like kyri Irving

Steph curry

John wall is nasty

Chris Paul just hasn't seemed like himself lately

Kemba walker is improving and will be a superstar one day

I like mike Conley he very under rated

Rondo , we are all waiting to see if he can return to form.

What's gonna happen with d rose when he returns?

Goran dragic has got to be most improved.

Kyle lowery had an amazing season, lets see if he can do it again next season after he signs a contract.

What ever happened to drew Holliday?

You got Eric Bledsoe

Ty Lawson

Russel Westbrook

Deron Williams who I think is over rated .

MCW

Jeff Teague is nice and is playing great against #1 seed Indy right now.

The two guys who stand out to me who I think will play major rolls for there teams heading into the future are Reggie Jackson and Patrick Beverly , they both are scrapy defenders and can run an offensive.

Jose Calderon

How can forget about tony Parker who is definitely top 3.probally #1

You got Isaiah Tomas who is a solid player.

I can go on and on .
The league is filled with great point guards.

I just sucks that my team the knicks don't have a single one.

I'm hoping next season we will be able to acquire atleast one.

Hopefully rondo or lowery.

A longshot would be Irving or cp3.

Goose17
05-03-2014, 06:26 PM
I'm going to the game today. I'm pulling for the Warriors. I'll be keeping a close eye on Mr. Thompson there.

Wish I could be there. Enjoy.

P&GRealist
05-03-2014, 06:27 PM
Wish I could be there. Enjoy.

:cheers:

MagicBucsSox
05-03-2014, 06:35 PM
Hahahah you have no clue what youre talking about if you just compared klays defense to harden. Harden doesn't play defense and Klay does. In fact he has played some very good defense this year and has given Paul trouble in this first round match up.

Trouble? Paul had one bad game. And your bragging about a 6'7 guy guarding a 6ft guy. And?

MagicBucsSox
05-03-2014, 06:36 PM
I can't believe we're talking about Sg when that's the weakest position in the league besides centers .

When we should be talking about PGs the most dominate position in the league.

I say Damien lilard for #1
That boy is nice.

I also like kyri Irving

Steph curry

John wall is nasty

Chris Paul just hasn't seemed like himself lately

Kemba walker is improving and will be a superstar one day

I like mike Conley he very under rated

Rondo , we are all waiting to see if he can return to form.

What's gonna happen with d rose when he returns?

Goran dragic has got to be most improved.

Kyle lowery had an amazing season, lets see if he can do it again next season after he signs a contract.

What ever happened to drew Holliday?

You got Eric Bledsoe

Ty Lawson

Russel Westbrook

Deron Williams who I think is over rated .

MCW

Jeff Teague is nice and is playing great against #1 seed Indy right now.

The two guys who stand out to me who I think will play major rolls for there teams heading into the future are Reggie Jackson and Patrick Beverly , they both are scrapy defenders and can run an offensive.

Jose Calderon

How can forget about tony Parker who is definitely top 3.probally #1

You got Isaiah Tomas who is a solid player.

I can go on and on .
The league is filled with great point guards.

I just sucks that my team the knicks don't have a single one.

I'm hoping next season we will be able to acquire atleast one.

Hopefully rondo or lowery.

A longshot would be Irving or cp3.


^Prisoner of the moment

Goose17
05-03-2014, 06:42 PM
So when Paul plays bad it's bc Klays "elite" on defense(lmao) , only bad game Paul had is game 6. That's it.

Proof that you haven't watched the series^

He had 8 assists with SIX turnovers in game 1 and shot only 43%
He shot 38% in game 3.
He had 6 assists with 4 turnovers in game 4.

On average 48min production, Klay holds opposing shooting guards to 12.4 PER, 2.4 turnovers and an eFG% of .46

On average 48min production, Klay holds opposing small forwards to 10.5 PER, 1.7 turnovers and an eFG% of .44

Klay is ranked 5th in DefRtg for all starting guards that played at least 70 games this season and averaged 30 minutes or more.


Watch the games, check the numbers. You clearly know nothing about the kid.

Sssmush
05-03-2014, 06:45 PM
We all saw his 6 game performance against Portland.

Here are some numbers:

26.8 PPG

50-133 FG (37.6%) (22.2 FGA per game)

16-54 3s (29.6%) (9 3's Attempted per game)

45-50 FTs (90%) (8.3 FTs attempted per game)

Is this when some Houston fans start labeling this a troll thread or something? LoL did anybody notice that when Lillard drained that epic 3 last night Harden was just standing there.

Flashback to last Summer when a bunch of high profile ESPN commentators and analysts were calling Houston "instant contenders" and "right in the mix for the NBA title" LoL. Yeah the "Harden is now the best shooting guard in the game" theory didn't start till the first month of the season but LoL that so many ESPN commentators were like "hmmmmmm, yeah, I can't really think of a better shooting guard then Harden, so with Kobe injured maybe we just have to say that Harden IS the best SG in the NBA."

Sssmush
05-03-2014, 06:50 PM
Yeah the game has changed a lot suddenly, the rise of 3's has created a super tough environment of perimeter defense. You have to elevate for a 3 the same as going for a dunk now. With Harden's perimeter D it is an absolute joke to call him the #1 shooting guard, and his offense isn't all that unbelievable either.

MagicBucsSox
05-03-2014, 07:01 PM
Proof that you haven't watched the series^

He had 8 assists with SIX turnovers in game 1 and shot only 43%
He shot 38% in game 3.
He had 6 assists with 4 turnovers in game 4.

On average 48min production, Klay holds opposing shooting guards to 12.4 PER, 2.4 turnovers and an eFG% of .46

On average 48min production, Klay holds opposing small forwards to 10.5 PER, 1.7 turnovers and an eFG% of .44

Klay is ranked 5th in DefRtg for all starting guards that played at least 70 games this season and averaged 30 minutes or more.


Watch the games, check the numbers. You clearly know nothing about the kid.

Lmao game 1 Klay guarded Paul in crunch time and he scored at will lol. Your talking% lol

JasonJohnHorn
05-03-2014, 07:02 PM
James Harden had a bad series. Part of that is because there is a LOT of pressure on him to handle the ball and defenses swarm him for it. Lot's of great guards have had awful series. Ray Allen played like $#!T throughout the playoffs in 2008 until they got to the finals, yet nobody goes back in hindsight and makes a big deal of that. It happens. You get cold, certain teams and defenses know how to guard you and it takes a while to figure it out.


Is Harden the best guard? I dunno.... Wade is still pretty amazing, despite reduced minutes and injury and such, and I'm sure had Kobe played this season, he'd have his hat in the ring for that title to.

Harden is the best right now. But let's be honest, he ISN'T a good primary ball handler. He is a great guy like Paul Pierce or Manu Ginobli to have as a secondary ball handler to mix it up a bit. The Rockets needs a pass-first point guard to take the bulk of the ball handling duties off of Harden's hands. Lin isn't cutting it.

It is amazing how quickly people forget the VAST improvement this team made by swapping out one All-Stra shooting guard (Kevin Martin) for another.

Goose17
05-03-2014, 07:13 PM
Lmao game 1 Klay guarded Paul in crunch time and he scored at will lol. Your talking% lol

LMAO... wow, that's your argument? Holy crap. You really don't know anything about basketball do you?

Well, nice talking to you. In the future I'll stick to conversing with people who actually understand the game and will watch a player play before critiquing them, thanks.

jerellh528
05-03-2014, 07:51 PM
Harden is the best sg in the game currently. Just because he's no where close to as good as Kobe was at the same age doesn't mean he isn't the best. Kobe is a top player of all time. You can't judge every other player according to guys like Kobe, Duncan, shaq, mj, etc because there's a reason they are who they are and you can't expect that kind of greatness out of everyone. Sometimes a guy is simply just a good player/current best. Harden fits that bill.

ManRam
05-03-2014, 08:06 PM
Best offensive SG in the league, for sure. Did he have a brutal series? Yes. Does a 6 game stretch represent a worthy sample size? No.

There wasn't a better shooting guard than Harden this regular season. If you want to knock him for the bad postseason, that's fine. But next season when his play is once again the best in the league for that position, well, you'll realize (hopefully) nothing has changed.


He does need to be better in the playoffs, for sure. His shot just wasn't falling. It happens. But essentially by default, he's the league's best.


And if you're uttering Klay Thompson's name, well, LOL. He's a superior defender, for sure. But offensively he's not even remotely as dynamic as Harden. Thompson is a 3-and-D player. Nothing more, nothing less.

JasonJohnHorn
05-03-2014, 08:23 PM
Best offensive SG in the league, for sure. Did he have a brutal series? Yes. Does a 6 game stretch represent a worthy sample size? No.

There wasn't a better shooting guard than Harden this regular season. If you want to knock him for the bad postseason, that's fine. But next season when his play is once again the best in the league for that position, well, you'll realize (hopefully) nothing has changed.


He does need to be better in the playoffs, for sure. His shot just wasn't falling. It happens. But essentially by default, he's the league's best.


And if you're uttering Klay Thompson's name, well, LOL. He's a superior defender, for sure. But offensively he's not even remotely as dynamic as Harden. Thompson is a 3-and-D player. Nothing more, nothing less.

Well put.

3RDASYSTEM
05-03-2014, 10:33 PM
We all saw his 6 game performance against Portland.

Here are some numbers:

26.8 PPG

50-133 FG (37.6%) (22.2 FGA per game)

16-54 3s (29.6%) (9 3's Attempted per game)

45-50 FTs (90%) (8.3 FTs attempted per game)

Its funny how a series or 1 month of regular season play can change

its like how GEORGE went off in game 7 and now he is a hero, had HARDEN forced game 7 he would be same hero until further notice with game 7 pending....food for thought, DURANT got bounced early out of last yr playoffs and now he is about to win nba mvp this yr, or most think so...so how did he fall off for playing poor in last yr playoffs but is about to win nba mvp 9 months later basically? the answer is he was already one of the top 2-5 players in nba so that 1st rd loss didn't drop him from his status, just like him winning nba mvp this yr wont put him back to his status, its solidified from now until he ages and gets older

DIRK got bounced out 1st rd after winning nba mvp and it didn't hurt his stock as individual player where he ranked among PF, he was still one of the best players in all of nba regardless of outcome, and proved it 4yrs later by winning title in 11' against one of the best teams of this era

how can you go out 1st rd against a non champ in 07' but beat a team going for 4 finals in a row and be penalized as a player? its like DIRK didn't solidify himself by winning a title in 11', he was well beyond that stage because we all knew what he was about, game wise especially

he didn't become a top 12 player ever(according to his current coach) by winning title, he did it by being unique at his position and dominating for a decade plus on good playoff teams , CUBAN gets a lot of cred for putting big payroll teams around DIRK, that has the biggest factor to me because he was going to ball tough on any team he went to...like if MIL would have kept him he would have been the best player there since BIG O/ALCINDOR/REDD and in the process would have made that owner so much money that he wouldn't have sold the team like he just did

HARDEN has just had it rough in series ever since his finals non showing in 12', just the way it goes sometimes because he's still a top SG in the league, regardless...just like he was winning 6th man of yr pre ROCKETS

you ride with your horse, win or lose

3RDASYSTEM
05-03-2014, 10:43 PM
Proof that you haven't watched the series^

He had 8 assists with SIX turnovers in game 1 and shot only 43%
He shot 38% in game 3.
He had 6 assists with 4 turnovers in game 4.

On average 48min production, Klay holds opposing shooting guards to 12.4 PER, 2.4 turnovers and an eFG% of .46

On average 48min production, Klay holds opposing small forwards to 10.5 PER, 1.7 turnovers and an eFG% of .44

Klay is ranked 5th in DefRtg for all starting guards that played at least 70 games this season and averaged 30 minutes or more.


Watch the games, check the numbers. You clearly know nothing about the kid.

if so then why isn't KLAY on all d team or getting recognition for it? its because he is a decent ok defender who is known for shooting lights out

that's why I know PER/WS is worthless because watching the games shows KLAY doesn't get lit up big time but he isn't a d stopper or go to guy, they have that in IGGY/GREEN and even BARNES for that type of stuff, they play better d when watching

no matter how much PER you show it will never convince me he is on the D level of a IGGY/T ALLEN, in no nba era

and last but not least this is the weakest/youngest era ever and the SG position is for sure at its weakest stage for damn sure so those numbers by KLAY are really not impressive at all but its not his fault he plays in this young watered down SG era but don't go overboard and post PER like it carries any type of weight, it carries not a ounce of it

Goose17
05-03-2014, 10:45 PM
Klays defense is vastly superior to Barnes and actually, not far off Dre.

Anyone who thinks otherwise hasn't watched this kid play more than a few games this year. Or just doesn't know **** about basketball.

Goose17
05-03-2014, 10:47 PM
My bad, I forgot, you're the guy that thinks Iverson is a top 5 player all time.

Conversation is over, I'm not discussing anything with someone who doesn't know the game.

3RDASYSTEM
05-03-2014, 11:05 PM
My bad, I forgot, you're the guy that thinks Iverson is a top 5 player all time.

Conversation is over, I'm not discussing anything with someone who doesn't know the game.

Its funny how DALY said top 10 ever for IVERSON and SHAQ said top 5 while he was still playing in the same league with IVERSON

its funny how JORDAN(your top player I bet of all time or top 3 at worst) said IVERSON reminded JORDAN of himself after torching the BULLS for 44pts JORDAN said that was him his rookie yr

but I get it I don't know the game worth a **** and you cant name me 10 players(especially perimeter players) who had more individual game/attributes than IVERSON displayed on the nba hardwood

when you make up your façade fantasy list, post it so we can see your psd genius because im sure you know the game very well since I seem to know nothing about a guy who played like the quote below:


“Pound-for-pound, probably the greatest player who ever played,” James said of Iverson, who will retire in a Sixers pregame ceremony ahead of Wednesday’s home opener against the defending champion Heat.

LeBron did the same thing in a recent ESPN the Magazine interview.


“I watch Jordan more than anybody for sure,” James said in ESPN The Magazine’s NBA Preview Issue. “But I’ll watch tapes of A.I., too. I don’t take anything from A.I.. Well, I do — his will. They say he was 6 feet, but A.I. was like 5-10˝. Do we even want to say 160? 170 [pounds]? Do we even want to give him that much weight? And he played like a 6-8 2-guard. He was one of the greatest finishers we’ve ever seen. You could never question his heart. Ever. He gave it his all. A.I. was like my second-favorite player growing up, after MJ.”

add BRON to the list also of jocking a guy almost a foot shorter and calling him the media term 'greatest''(really meaning ''best'') players to ever step on hardwood

now I got some pretty elite company when it comes to not knowing the game or do you not agree with those coaches/players being elite at what they did?

you do understand that DALY beat JORDAN/MAGIC/BIRD all while they were non injured for most part? and he coached that original dream team so wouldn't he know a thing or thrice about how good individual players are?


“Pound-for-pound, probably the greatest player who ever played,” James said of Iverson, who will retire in a Sixers pregame ceremony ahead of Wednesday’s home opener against the defending champion Heat.

LeBron did the same thing in a recent ESPN the Magazine interview.


“He’s an incredible player, one of the top 10 in history,” former Pistons coach Chuck Daly told a visitor before Iverson ignited and torched Detroit’s defense for game-high totals of 37 points and 15 assists in a 2005 game at Wachovia Center

You never have to agree with me/DALY/SHAQ/JORDAN/BRON but damn to say I don't know the game is about as dumb a comment ever made on any sports forum because I know for damn sure individual players game/abilities, that's easy to dissect since I have game of my own and proof of comments on here to back it up also, its really basic but you think its rocket science for some strange reason

its dribble, shoot, run and sometimes act like you are guarding your position, and mix in a little flopping, that's todays nba bball, and rogue refs also

IVERSON is top 5 of his era easily, which equates to being in the exclusive club of the best 20 players to ever step on the hardwood, at 5'10'' in a big man league

3RDASYSTEM
05-03-2014, 11:14 PM
“He’s an incredible player, one of the top 10 in history,” former Pistons coach Chuck Daly told a visitor before Iverson ignited and torched Detroit’s defense for game-high totals of 37 points and 15 assists in a 2005 game at Wachovia Center

cssdmark
05-03-2014, 11:16 PM
No but he is the best at getting a foul called when no one fouls him. He just runs into a set defense throw his hands up, head back and then fall on the floor, it works every time, even if he loses the ball before all that faking.

slashsnake
05-03-2014, 11:22 PM
No but he is the best at getting a foul called when no one fouls him. He just runs into a set defense throw his hands up, head back and then fall on the floor, it works every time, even if he loses the ball before all that faking.

Yeah that's all he does... lol

When I was a kid it was all about how Jordan would intimidate refs into calling fouls on him when they got all ball.

Then it was Iverson and Kobe, crying out like someone lopped off their arm every time they went to the rack.



And I am sure if you took all the greats quotes of the past 20 years you'd have 30 "top ten all time" players in there..

3RDASYSTEM
05-03-2014, 11:24 PM
Damn gooseegg17, add another stupid all nba caliber player to the fray of not knowing what the hell they are talking about because they don't know the game, we bow down to gooseegg17, the psd genius



Allen Iverson was more than basketball. He was more than a culture, more than a city, a run to the Finals and a Gladiator-like Most Valuable Player season. He defined an entire generation.

“He meant everything to me,” Paul said. “I grew up in North Carolina and I loved Michael Jordan to death, but Allen Iverson had a bigger influence on the game of basketball than anybody. I don’t even think it is close.”


“A lot of kids and even guys in the NBA will tell you the sleeves the guys wear on their arms, that’s Allen Iverson,” Paul said. “Some guys wear it as a pad, and stuff like that, but that’s Allen Iverson. When I was a kid, I wanted braids because of Allen Iverson. I wear number three, the way that I play, because of Allen Iverson.”

You mean to tell me CP3 wears a guys jersey and he is nowhere near one of the best players to ever lace'em up? you think BRON idolized JORDAN because he sucked? and you think is 2nd fav player wouldn't be on same level of play/impact? don't fool yourself any more gooseegg17

“His style, the way he played, his heart, he was so little,” Crawford said. “But he was unstoppable. I was just going back watching tape and I was like, you got your crossover to a jump shot from him. He was like an artist and I got it from him. That crossover to a pull-up.


Whats so funny is IVERSON was doing the euro step before all these MANU/HARDEN/BRON's were doing it ...tru story, his offensive arsenal was unmatched for a 5'10'' player, unmatched and its not even close the more I think about it

3RDASYSTEM
05-03-2014, 11:35 PM
Yeah that's all he does... lol

When I was a kid it was all about how Jordan would intimidate refs into calling fouls on him when they got all ball.

Then it was Iverson and Kobe, crying out like someone lopped off their arm every time they went to the rack.



And I am sure if you took all the greats quotes of the past 20 years you'd have 30 "top ten all time" players in there..

Exactly, so its basically your preference

like do you like your lady to have pretty face and no body, or the body and ugly face, or the brains+ugly face+no body or big *** or tit man

it just depends on what you like, your style

or maybe it just how you recognize who is truly the best or cream of the crop group of players by observing(and playing)

but where it gets tricky is when coaches/players pub up a teammate, that's the bias where you have to watch it, but when a coach or player speaks highly on others not on same team then it carries more weight, especially off camera talking about it face to face

slashsnake
05-03-2014, 11:37 PM
Allen Iverson was more than basketball. He was more than a culture, more than a city, a run to the Finals and a Gladiator-like Most Valuable Player season. He defined an entire generation.

I love Iverson... top 5 all time talent. But as far as leadership, ability to take a team up to a higher level consistently, instilling a winning culture, those kinds of things that other greats did, I think he falls short. That was why I think teams were willing to put up with headache ego's and players when they got older and their on court skill diminished, but not with Iverson.

To me, top 10 is if I am starting a franchise, these are my top 10 player choices. AI just isn't in there.

Jordan, Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Magic, Shaq, Kobe, Bird, Duncan, Malone, Lebron, Oscar, Hakeem, Pettit, Baylor, West, Moses... Then we start getting into AI territory with Havliccek, Garnett, Barkley, Cousy, and so on. Borderline top 20.

Nothing against him. Top 10 talent easy. Top 10 influential. Sure. Top 10 player I would only find 9 other guys I would rather want. Not even close.

cssdmark
05-03-2014, 11:49 PM
Yeah that's all he does... lol

When I was a kid it was all about how Jordan would intimidate refs into calling fouls on him when they got all ball.

Then it was Iverson and Kobe, crying out like someone lopped off their arm every time they went to the rack.



And I am sure if you took all the greats quotes of the past 20 years you'd have 30 "top ten all time" players in there... Ok that is not all he does but that )$&&&& is annoying as he'll to watch. I think the NBA needs to require the refs to watch game tape, then he would never get all those calls. That being said I like The beard.

slashsnake
05-03-2014, 11:51 PM
. Ok that is not all he does but that )$&&&& is annoying as he'll to watch. I think the NBA needs to require the refs to watch game tape, then he would never get all those calls. That being said I like The beard.

Well he is more aggressive than about anyone I've seen out there... something him and the other guys who always got those phantom calls (Jordan, AI, Kobe) had in common.

3RDASYSTEM
05-04-2014, 12:50 AM
Well he is more aggressive than about anyone I've seen out there... something him and the other guys who always got those phantom calls (Jordan, AI, Kobe) had in common.

and to think of all those phantom calls those 3 got at least JORDAN was the media hyped superstar and bean Bryant was the wannabe copycat new laker media hype superstar, IVERSON was a day 1 rebel to the system and earned all those phantom calls because of the contact he initiated and him being 150lbs soak and wet, that's not hard for anybody in the nba to knock around in any era, especially if he plays attack mode like IVERSON and getting the JORDAN rules thrown at him in the same breath, STERN hated IVERSON and he still got his phantom calls, STERN loved JORDAN/bean so of course the phantom calls were way way way more on side of those 2, proof is in the film and mediahype

slashsnake
05-04-2014, 12:58 AM
and to think of all those phantom calls those 3 got at least JORDAN was the media hyped superstar and bean Bryant was the wannabe copycat new laker media hype superstar, IVERSON was a day 1 rebel to the system and earned all those phantom calls because of the contact he initiated and him being 150lbs soak and wet, that's not hard for anybody in the nba to knock around in any era, especially if he plays attack mode like IVERSON and getting the JORDAN rules thrown at him in the same breath, STERN hated IVERSON and he still got his phantom calls, STERN loved JORDAN/bean so of course the phantom calls were way way way more on side of those 2, proof is in the film and mediahype

Really, you don't get nicknamed Allen "Diverson" if you aren't flopping quite a bit out there. I will be honest here the guy took more crushing blows than I have ever seen, but he was an all timer when it came to flopping for fouls.

3RDASYSTEM
05-04-2014, 01:06 AM
I love Iverson... top 5 all time talent. But as far as leadership, ability to take a team up to a higher level consistently, instilling a winning culture, those kinds of things that other greats did, I think he falls short. That was why I think teams were willing to put up with headache ego's and players when they got older and their on court skill diminished, but not with Iverson.

To me, top 10 is if I am starting a franchise, these are my top 10 player choices. AI just isn't in there.

Jordan, Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Magic, Shaq, Kobe, Bird, Duncan, Malone, Lebron, Oscar, Hakeem, Pettit, Baylor, West, Moses... Then we start getting into AI territory with Havliccek, Garnett, Barkley, Cousy, and so on. Borderline top 20.

Nothing against him. Top 10 talent easy. Top 10 influential. Sure. Top 10 player I would only find 9 other guys I would rather want. Not even close.

Nothing wrong with that list, but when you say top 5 talent(game/impact to me) or top 10 talent easy it makes me just think of his actual game on nba hardwood, the super natural talent/athletic ability is a plus when you add on his supreme skill/mental+physical toughness and his will/clutch shot ability, easily in club of 20 best to do it

only players on your list I would take over him are WILT/ALCINDOR/SHAQ/BRON/DREAM and possibly BIG O, but if those players are gone and IVERSON was there then I wouldn't be mad at all, but its always basic basketball structure to get the freak of nature 7 footer over the under 6ft player, in any era

that what makes IVERSON special, he can be mentioned with those players, along with ZEKE/K JOHNSON, but nobody like STOCKTON/NASH because they aren't built like that game wise,just physical size

but only perimeter player I would even think about taking over him is JORDAN, bean Bryant came in the league same time and had his 2nd finals vs IVERSON 1st finals, and SHAQ trumps mckie/deke on any day/era

had IVERSON played with WEST support cast he would have won at least 5 of those 10 finals, easily...not 1 out of 10

I don't think you realize he played 10yrs with mckie/snow then on to iggy/korver, nothing ship material about those sidekicks at all

that's what you have to put into consideration, how can a top 5 talent all time play with a core of mckie/snow for his majority of career? but the others on your list have played with way better support cast, super stacked in some cases like BIRD/MAGIC/MALONE/RUSSELL/ALCINDOR

its like in nfl, I feel B SANDERS/MOSS are 2 of the best ever to play, plus top 5 talents at position and top 10 all time talents, which equates to on field production/impact, like for instance BARRY kept 9 in the box come playoff time and MOSS had 3-4 guys on him from MINNY to when he was old man with PATS

see what I mean by being one of the best players to do it? how is MOSS/BARRY any diff. than IVERSON other than them playing diff. professional sport?

who cares if MOSS/IVERSON/BARRY didn't have leadership skills or they couldn't take a borderline d league team to higher level, especially BARRY/IVERSON who carried teams for yrs solo, MOSS had talent when he first entered league so he is a diff. story when it comes to that topic

you could find 9 other guys to choose over BARRY/MOSS im sure but when you put on the game film you will be mighty fine picking these 2 guys with the 10th pick, and feeling like you picked no 1 overall, get my drift?

just like IVERSON/BARRY went no 1 overall, easy money

MOSS got robbed and should have went top 3-5 easily but slipped to 20th because of mediahype(negative)

3RDASYSTEM
05-04-2014, 01:19 AM
Really, you don't get nicknamed Allen "Diverson" if you aren't flopping quite a bit out there. I will be honest here the guy took more crushing blows than I have ever seen, but he was an all timer when it came to flopping for fouls.

I wrote on here before and said he has flailed before, but I said its not hard to knock around 150lb player when being guarded by 180-200lb guards and being hit by 250-300lb bigs, that's all I was saying about him flopping, he was a lightweight and its not hard to knock(flop) that type of weight around by bigger defenders

IVERSON flopped no doubt, but his style of play and getting clotheslined(see 01' conference finals) and beat up like a perimeter version of SHAQ then I would do whatever it took to get that extra easy edge since I would be getting beat up for most part

why do you think SHAQ put on all that weight with lakers and pounded the opponent with it? because he was tired of taking brutal unnecessary punishment and being the opposite of IVERSON, too big to flop so he made everybody else turn into floppers, vlade divac and others

you must live in philly area because that diverson hype never got media pub

IVERSON ran off screens to score under L BROWN(6yrs) so do you understand how much contact that is from big/others over that span? punishment for any player let alone under 6ft

do you understand IVERSON was the perimeter+interior scorer for PHI? so add him attacking to the lane getting more punishment to his undersized frame

the only dives I recall from diverson is diving for loose balls from all out hustle, but what do I know about basketball, I don't know much when it comes to IVERSON, just the other players I mention, wow

slashsnake
05-04-2014, 01:36 AM
Actually never lived in Philly though I am an Eagles fan. I liked him, first saw him at Georgetown watching the NCAA playoffs as a kid and followed him ever since. My buddy always called him that, and it clearly fit. He did flail and flop to draw fouls as well as anyone. I don't really consider that a negative, but it was a big part of his game. I know he got crushed out there, I always said nobody took a beating like him. That Brown team that got to the finals I've said before was one man carrying the offense as much as ever in NBA history. Seriously, Dikembe Motumbo and Theo Ratliff were their #2 offensive weapons. Very impressive, and one of my favorite players ever. But still no way in heck I take him over Hakeem in the top 10 all time.

MagicBucsSox
05-04-2014, 01:39 AM
Klay did such an awesome job on Paul tonight lmaooooooo

slashsnake
05-04-2014, 01:58 AM
but only perimeter player I would even think about taking over him is JORDAN, bean Bryant came in the league same time and had his 2nd finals vs IVERSON 1st finals, and SHAQ trumps mckie/deke on any day/era

had IVERSON played with WEST support cast he would have won at least 5 of those 10 finals, easily...not 1 out of 10

I don't think you realize he played 10yrs with mckie/snow then on to iggy/korver, nothing ship material about those sidekicks at all

that's what you have to put into consideration, how can a top 5 talent all time play with a core of mckie/snow for his majority of career? but the others on your list have played with way better support cast, super stacked in some cases like BIRD/MAGIC/MALONE/RUSSELL/ALCINDOR

its like in nfl, I feel B SANDERS/MOSS are 2 of the best ever to play, plus top 5 talents at position and top 10 all time talents, which equates to on field production/impact, like for instance BARRY kept 9 in the box come playoff time and MOSS had 3-4 guys on him from MINNY to when he was old man with PATS

see what I mean by being one of the best players to do it? how is MOSS/BARRY any diff. than IVERSON other than them playing diff. professional sport?

who cares if MOSS/IVERSON/BARRY didn't have leadership skills or they couldn't take a borderline d league team to higher level, especially BARRY/IVERSON who carried teams for yrs solo, MOSS had talent when he first entered league so he is a diff. story when it comes to that topic

you could find 9 other guys to choose over BARRY/MOSS im sure but when you put on the game film you will be mighty fine picking these 2 guys with the 10th pick, and feeling like you picked no 1 overall, get my drift?

just like IVERSON/BARRY went no 1 overall, easy money

MOSS got robbed and should have went top 3-5 easily but slipped to 20th because of mediahype(negative)

Well I wonder if he was unable to draw other top free agents to his cause because of his issues. I think that's pretty big. When talking about top 10 all time guys, I'd rather get into why they did accomplish great levels of success than find excuses why they failed.

And no I wouldn't feel comfortable talking about AI in the top 10 if I was starting a team. He had some glaring holes defensively. He wasn't consistent (Barry and Moss's biggest issue at times). Sure you can win 50-60 games with a great scorer having a 5-15 type night every few games. But in the playoffs where the teams were better you can't win consistently with that and they didn't.

That I think is why AI struggled so much in the playoffs. Sure he excelled in the regular season in a large part because he was trying so hard. Then come the playoffs where everyone tries, and he struggles to shoot even 40%.. You can have a couple bad shooting nights in the regular season, but in the NBA playoffs you just gave your opponents half the wins they needed in a series for that.

Sure he'd get a few steals, but took wayyyy to many chances for me to give up a great offensive and defensive player for him. He just didn't impact the game defensively like the other guys on my list and that is a big part of the game.

No offense but Barry was on a roster where there were 21 other starters, not an NBA team where 1 star can make such a huge difference. The QB in the NFL is the only position which comes close to an NBA player in terms of helping team success. That is a pretty tough comparison.

Trwood12
05-04-2014, 02:24 AM
Yeah but not because he is necessarily great.there is just no great shooting guards in the league.

Hawkeye15
05-04-2014, 04:44 AM
Harden is the best sg in the game currently. Just because he's no where close to as good as Kobe was at the same age doesn't mean he isn't the best. Kobe is a top player of all time. You can't judge every other player according to guys like Kobe, Duncan, shaq, mj, etc because there's a reason they are who they are and you can't expect that kind of greatness out of everyone. Sometimes a guy is simply just a good player/current best. Harden fits that bill.

yeppers

Tony_Starks
05-04-2014, 04:18 PM
I'd rather have Kawhi Leonard....T Ross.... Aaron Afflalo..... Lance Stephenson....Bradley Beal....Wes Matthews....

All over Harden. Easy.

goku
05-04-2014, 04:42 PM
I'd rather have Kawhi Leonard....T Ross.... Aaron Afflalo..... Lance Stephenson....Bradley Beal....Wes Matthews....

All over Harden. Easy.

lol might as well put Henry, nick young, Jodie meeks and Bazmore in there too

KnicksorBust
05-04-2014, 04:47 PM
I'd rather have Kawhi Leonard....T Ross.... Aaron Afflalo..... Lance Stephenson....Bradley Beal....Wes Matthews....

All over Harden. Easy.

This post is terrible. Harden is easily better than all of them. Harden is still #1.

goku
05-04-2014, 04:50 PM
Ross and lenard are SF's lol

AllDay28
05-04-2014, 04:53 PM
"My opinion of James Harden plummeted after this series. Talk about a hollow player whose statistics greatly inflate his value. Yes, Harden led the Rockets in scoring at 26.8 points a game, but he shot 37.6 percent from the field and 29.6 percent from three-point range. He played sleepy defense, ignored Howard’s inside dominance while taking hurried shots, and showed bad form and thin skin when he called a respected reporter “weirdo” for having the audacity to ask about his shooting woes. On top of it all, his game is somewhat of a fraud: he initiates contact with his defender more than often, and is more preoccupied with duping the officials to get a call than he is in working for a good shot. After six games of it all, I’ve seen enough. Will never look at him the same."

Something I read and completely agreed with ..

AllDay28
05-04-2014, 04:55 PM
Something else I read and agreed with

“My goodness has Harden been awful. Never mind that he is averaging the exact amount of points he averaged in the regular season (25.4), he’s doing it on seven more field goal attempts per game (23.6) and 34.7 percent shooting. Of the 482 players that competed in any NBA games at all this year, Harden’s current field goal percentage would place him firmly at 438th in the league if sustained for an entire season. We have come to expect this sort of ineptitude from him on defense, but the supposed best shooting guard in the league shouldn’t be laying bricks like the third little pig.”

blastmasta26
05-04-2014, 05:54 PM
Horrible in the playoffs yes, but still the best by default since Kobe and Wade are injured/declining. Either one of them fully healthy would be better right now, but only Harden fits the bill.

KingOf215
05-04-2014, 07:49 PM
Been said here already... Harden is a default top tier SG, in a league with little talent at the position. The best SGs were injured, and Harden isn't even the clear best of what's left. He takes way too many shots, and is one of the worst ball hogs in the game today. Funny thing is that they have him paired with the default best C in the game too.

jchase3
05-04-2014, 08:14 PM
A) he never was considered the best SG in the league

B) Kobe healthy is still by far the best SG in the league

BoSox47
05-04-2014, 08:25 PM
He is great offensively but damn, that defense is terrible. Hard to put him number 1 for me considering all around play. With a lack of star quality sgs in the league right now and kobe/wade injuries he could be.

cmellofan15
05-04-2014, 08:44 PM
A) he never was considered the best SG in the league

B) Kobe healthy is still by far the best SG in the league

lol talk about a great hypothetical...

MagicBucsSox
05-04-2014, 08:50 PM
This post is terrible. Harden is easily better than all of them. Harden is still #1.

Joe Johnson is #1.(excluding healthy wadd&kobe). And in crunch time it's not even a debate. And skill wise he's better than harden. Gardenia just quicker. That's it

Tony_Starks
05-04-2014, 09:45 PM
It's always curious to me how somebody like Harden can get so much love but Melo gets hated on. Melo does everything Harden does but better, minus the flopping tomfoolery.....

Tony_Starks
05-04-2014, 09:48 PM
This post is terrible. Harden is easily better than all of them. Harden is still #1.

Any one of those players will get a career high if Harden checks them. Defensively the dude is a joke....

JJ_JKidd
05-04-2014, 09:54 PM
Media believes so.

Asik's better
05-04-2014, 10:14 PM
It's always curious to me how somebody like Harden can get so much love but Melo gets hated on. Melo does everything Harden does but better, minus the flopping tomfoolery.....
Love? Who are these people that show nothing but love for harden. Harden is always shitted on.

All-In
05-05-2014, 12:19 AM
Klay isn’t a bad defender….but he isn’t a great defender either….hes average…and I’ve read multiple posts about him doing a good job guarding CP3 and that’s evidence as to why hes a great defender…..pump the brakes on that….Guarding a gimpy 6 foot guy isn’t evidence to me….and yes I’ve watched a lot of reg season games…what makes a wing defender great is the ability to push the ball to the sides, deny middle and funnel action into help defense(Bogut in this case)….these are weak points for Klay….Klay is a great one on one defender but theres more to defense than that….off-ball awareness, rotations, PnR defense….if you honestly think hes great at all that….your a GSW fan

tredigs
05-05-2014, 12:32 AM
Marks the 3rd time out of 5 appearances Harden has shot 39% or lower in the post-season. 2 of the 3 times he eclipsed the mark being as a 3rd option, with his WS/48, offensive rating and TS% dropping significantly as a #1 while in Houston.

His play falling off a cliff when it matters is what we've come to see year in/out.

5ass
05-05-2014, 12:45 AM
I'd rather have Kawhi Leonard....T Ross.... Aaron Afflalo..... Lance Stephenson....Bradley Beal....Wes Matthews....

All over Harden. Easy.

Lol what a terrible post.

slashsnake
05-05-2014, 01:22 AM
Marks the 3rd time out of 5 appearances Harden has shot 39% or lower in the post-season. 2 of the 3 times he eclipsed the mark being as a 3rd option, with his WS/48, offensive rating and TS% dropping significantly as a #1 while in Houston.

His play falling off a cliff when it matters is what we've come to see year in/out.

Not good, but not the end of the world. Metta and Kidd shot under 40% a combined 18 times in the playoffs. Melo, Vince Carter, and Paul Pierce 4 times each (and are a much bigger player inside). Harden's first two years in Houston are about exactly what Chauncey Billups shot his first two years in Detroit in the playoffs (won a championship in one of those years).

I can see the WS and offensive rating dropping heavily. He isn't playing beside Durant and Westbrook anymore. I'd say the past couple years have been by far Joakim Noahs best offensive years, but his offensive rating the past two are the worst of his career. No Rose makes a difference. Or Ray Allen having the same offensive rating with Miami as with Milwaukee. Or Varejao's win share per 48 being higher with Lebron than the past 4 years, where when he's played he has been much better.

Take Nick Collison for example. Offensive rating of 120 and win share /48 of .134 Nice numbers. An offensive player that blows Melo and ties Lebron in that since he joined OKC. Only bested by a handful of great offensive guys like Tyson Chandler, Birdman, and Erick Dampier... His win shares are right there with Rondo, Rose and Al Jefferson.. Of course its because of where he plays that he gets that number, ship him to Philly and those drop significantly. I don't think Houston is anywhere near as talented as OKC, and that has a lot to do with those drops. Sure part is that he is full time instead of part time now too...

LoveMeOrHateMe
05-05-2014, 01:49 AM
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slashsnake
05-05-2014, 02:42 AM
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Love him, but he needs to get back out there before we can say that. I don't like the Lakers, but I hope he proves his doubters wrong.

tredigs
05-05-2014, 03:20 AM
Not good, but not the end of the world. Metta and Kidd shot under 40% a combined 18 times in the playoffs. Melo, Vince Carter, and Paul Pierce 4 times each (and are a much bigger player inside). Harden's first two years in Houston are about exactly what Chauncey Billups shot his first two years in Detroit in the playoffs (won a championship in one of those years).

I can see the WS and offensive rating dropping heavily. He isn't playing beside Durant and Westbrook anymore. I'd say the past couple years have been by far Joakim Noahs best offensive years, but his offensive rating the past two are the worst of his career. No Rose makes a difference. Or Ray Allen having the same offensive rating with Miami as with Milwaukee. Or Varejao's win share per 48 being higher with Lebron than the past 4 years, where when he's played he has been much better.

Take Nick Collison for example. Offensive rating of 120 and win share /48 of .134 Nice numbers. An offensive player that blows Melo and ties Lebron in that since he joined OKC. Only bested by a handful of great offensive guys like Tyson Chandler, Birdman, and Erick Dampier... His win shares are right there with Rondo, Rose and Al Jefferson.. Of course its because of where he plays that he gets that number, ship him to Philly and those drop significantly. I don't think Houston is anywhere near as talented as OKC, and that has a lot to do with those drops. Sure part is that he is full time instead of part time now too...

Why compare him to other players on other teams in entirely different situations when you can compare his regular season #'s to post-season? They drop. Significantly. If it was just his shooting % dropping and he still brought ancillary benefits like elite positional rebounding (Westbrook pulling in nearly 10 rpg in this first round comes to mind) or great playmaking/defense like some of the others mentioned, we might be having a different discussion.

P&GRealist
05-05-2014, 03:28 AM
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Can't wait for him to comeback to bring back some respectability to the position.

LoveMeOrHateMe
05-05-2014, 03:39 AM
^^ lets hope he's back healthy and injury free

P&GRealist
05-05-2014, 03:41 AM
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^^ lets hope he's back healthy and injury free

:cheers:

slashsnake
05-05-2014, 06:16 AM
Why compare him to other players on other teams in entirely different situations when you can compare his regular season #'s to post-season? They drop. Significantly. If it was just his shooting % dropping and he still brought ancillary benefits like elite positional rebounding (Westbrook pulling in nearly 10 rpg in this first round comes to mind) or great playmaking/defense like some of the others mentioned, we might be having a different discussion.

Well like I said. Not good. And I don't know who thought Harden over Westbrook was ever an idea, but if it was actually a respectable reporter, they should find a new career.

Either way his playoff FG% drops 2%, same as Westbrook (Though Harden keeps the higher playoff FG%)..

Playoff shooting significan droughts?

Kareem Abdul Jabbars and Tony Parkers dropped 3% in the post-season, aka 50% more of a significant drop.

Dirk after 5 playoff appearances had a 3% lower FG% in the playoffs than regular season. Same with Magic... Magic even had a year he went from a 53% shooting reg season to a 38% shooting playoffs

Bird had back to back playoffs early in his career that he shot over 50% in the regular season and just 42% in the playoffs.

Personally I don't think Harden's Reggie Milleresque playoff implosion is a big deal when you look at other players.

We are saying Jordan's first 5 years his FG% dropped by 1.5% and Hardens dropped by 2% and that's cause for concern here? 1 shot per 1000 attempts difference?

I just think its a bit overkill on a message board where everything that happens now is the best or worst thing ever after a bad playoff series.

archdevil84
05-05-2014, 07:04 AM
harden is the biggest joke of the NBA

Aust
05-05-2014, 12:49 PM
Harden can score and the tv reporters & social media anointed him a superstar. You no longer have to earn it. It's a 20+ppg mandatory title

Monta Elli has scored 20+ppg, is he just the exception?

P&GRealist
05-05-2014, 12:56 PM
I think Monta Ellis had a better overall impactful season for his team than James Harden this yr.

Chronz
05-05-2014, 01:45 PM
I think Monta Ellis had a better overall impactful season for his team than James Harden this yr.
y's dat?
Did you consistently watch either of those teams or just the playoffs?

P&GRealist
05-05-2014, 01:52 PM
y's dat?
Did you consistently watch either of those teams or just the playoffs?

Regular season and playoffs. Calm down.

Htownballa1622
05-05-2014, 02:06 PM
I think Monta Ellis had a better overall impactful season for his team than James Harden this yr.

I think you're a closet Rockets fan the way you post about the team or it's players so consistently. :clap::cheer:

P&GRealist
05-05-2014, 02:07 PM
I think you're a closet Rockets fan the way you post about the team or it's players so consistently. :clap::cheer:

:o

Htownballa1622
05-05-2014, 02:12 PM
:o

lol.

Just teasing. :p

Wrigheyes4MVP
05-05-2014, 03:38 PM
I'll say Wade is better. Can't really think of anyone else.

Its probably between those two though. You can't really compare their stats though so its pretty much a judgement call but despite Wade's knees and durability issues, if I had to chose one of those guys to lead my team in a 7 game series... I go Wade.

I can understand why some would say that Wade's durability issues are too much of a deterant though, especially over an 82 game season. To me, a healthy Wade is still the best SG in the league. That is all I am saying.

ryang
05-05-2014, 04:47 PM
Ill take D Wade especially come playoff time.

cmellofan15
05-05-2014, 05:56 PM
Regular season and playoffs. Calm down.

i'm not really sure what you mean by impact, but Harden had a LOT more WS and a much better WS per 48. On top of that he was much more efficient at scoring and spreading the ball while having basically the same usage ratings. Harden was a bit worse on defense but I don't think you can really compare the two when it comes to impact. Harden is the first option on the Rockets game in and game out, while Ellis can takeover, he's still number 2 by default.

L8kers4life
05-05-2014, 06:18 PM
y's dat?
Did you consistently watch either of those teams or just the playoffs?

He has a point, Dallas did not make the playoffs last year, Monta Gave them a playmaker and relieved some of the pressure from Dirk. They really did well against San Antonio and a major part of that was Monta. In terms of Houston, you can argue Harden regressed, and hurt the Rockets in the playoffs with his defense and bad shot selection, with that being said, I would not say Monta is better than Harden. I consider Paul George a SG, and because he is a 2 way player I would say he is the best, but I’m sure many would argue he is a small forward, so if that is the case then Harden should be considered the best currently.

tredigs
05-05-2014, 06:34 PM
He has a point, Dallas did not make the playoffs last year, Monta Gave them a playmaker and relieved some of the pressure from Dirk. They really did well against San Antonio and a major part of that was Monta. In terms of Houston, you can argue Harden regressed, and hurt the Rockets in the playoffs with his defense and bad shot selection, with that being said, I would not say Monta is better than Harden. I consider Paul George a SG, and because he is a 2 way player I would say he is the best, but I’m sure many would argue he is a small forward, so if that is the case then Harden should be considered the best currently.

Bigger difference for them last year was Dirk's injuries and only starting 47 games as opposed to 80 this year.

Harden's probably the best SG, but not a top ten player when defenses lock down.

mngopher35
05-05-2014, 06:40 PM
He has a point, Dallas did not make the playoffs last year, Monta Gave them a playmaker and relieved some of the pressure from Dirk. They really did well against San Antonio and a major part of that was Monta. In terms of Houston, you can argue Harden regressed, and hurt the Rockets in the playoffs with his defense and bad shot selection, with that being said, I would not say Monta is better than Harden. I consider Paul George a SG, and because he is a 2 way player I would say he is the best, but I’m sure many would argue he is a small forward, so if that is the case then Harden should be considered the best currently.

When Harden went from OKC to Houston they went from no playoffs to playoffs as well. Not to mention the year before the reason Dallas didn't make the playoffs was because Dirk was injured (they went 27-17 I believe to close out the year). I don't necessarily disagree with the rest but thought this should be pointed out. Harden is definitely still a better player than Monta, although he did have a good year himself.

L8kers4life
05-05-2014, 07:52 PM
When Harden went from OKC to Houston they went from no playoffs to playoffs as well. Not to mention the year before the reason Dallas didn't make the playoffs was because Dirk was injured (they went 27-17 I believe to close out the year). I don't necessarily disagree with the rest but thought this should be pointed out. Harden is definitely still a better player than Monta, although he did have a good year himself.

Fair point, but with that being said, adding the best center in the game and Dwight beasting the way he did, the fact the Rockets had home court advantage, and they could still not get passed the first round as well as his horrible shooting during these playoffs, one could argue that Monta was more valuable during these playoffs, but again, I will still take Harden over Monta and it's really not to close, I'm just saying, I could see where some could make an argument for Monta.

L8kers4life
05-05-2014, 07:54 PM
Bigger difference for them last year was Dirk's injuries and only starting 47 games as opposed to 80 this year.

Harden's probably the best SG, but not a top ten player when defenses lock down.


This is True, but I think without Monta this year, Dallas does not make the playoffs, would you agree?

L8kers4life
05-05-2014, 07:56 PM
i'm not really sure what you mean by impact, but Harden had a LOT more WS and a much better WS per 48. On top of that he was much more efficient at scoring and spreading the ball while having basically the same usage ratings. Harden was a bit worse on defense but I don't think you can really compare the two when it comes to impact. Harden is the first option on the Rockets game in and game out, while Ellis can takeover, he's still number 2 by default.


Good points, but during these playoffs, Dwight was number 1 and Harden was 2, Harden's defense was atrocious, shot selection atrocious and he disappeared when they needed him most, I cant say the same for Monta. Without Monta, Mavs dont sniff the playoffs this year.

Hawkeye15
05-05-2014, 08:26 PM
again, by default, Harden is the leagues best SG through an 82+ game season. The only guys who can challenge him are either old or hurt, or both, meaning they missed tons of time, or were on serious minute/games played restrictions. Being the best at a position in a given year doesn't mean you are a superstar. In this case, it shows how pathetic the position is right now. Harden is an elite offensive scorer, who sucks on defense. He had a bad playoff series. But THIS YEAR, there was nobody better at his position.

EvanTurner
05-05-2014, 09:23 PM
James harden is by far the worst defender in the league at his position. He doesnt even try ether so it makes it worst. But hes a good scorer and a star.... Just not a superstar.