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leprechaun5
04-17-2014, 07:29 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVYJULACcao

11 minutes of James Harden sucking on defense

goingfor28
04-17-2014, 07:29 PM
This ought to be good

Hawkeye15
04-17-2014, 07:37 PM
I am gonna go out on a ledge and say this turns into Rox/Warriors fans arguing in less than 1 page from now.

Hawkeye15
04-17-2014, 07:40 PM
god though, that video is exactly what I continue to say. Harden watches the ball on defense like its a pair of boobs, and loses his man constantly. I just don't get how Rockets fans can defend his defense so hard, though I know in the main forum there is always a pack mentality with every fanbase.

But as a Rockets fan, can you seriously tell me that at least 4-5 times a game, you aren't screaming at your television because Harden just totally screwed up and **** the bed defensively? I know I do

rockets-fan
04-17-2014, 07:41 PM
This hurts to see so much, thing is you can make a 2 hour video if not longer of more bad defensive plays

Imagin of this dude decided to try on defense....scary! Thing is when he tries, he is a decent defender. He just loses his man watching the ball the whole time

rockets-fan
04-17-2014, 07:43 PM
god though, that video is exactly what I continue to say. Harden watches the ball on defense like its a pair of boobs, and loses his man constantly. I just don't get how Rockets fans can defend his defense so hard, though I know in the main forum there is always a pack mentality with every fanbase.

But as a Rockets fan, can you seriously tell me that at least 4-5 times a game, you aren't screaming at your television because Harden just totally screwed up and **** the bed defensively? I know I do

I've never defended his defense, the most I've gone out and said is he is a good post defender. Which he is.

But yes I tell at my tv watching harden play sometimes

BenFrank
04-17-2014, 07:55 PM
Wasn't there a thread on this, just a couple of weeks ago? People act like James Harden is the first guy to play bad defense.. Its a shame too because that's the only thing people can use to try to discredit how GREAT a player he is.. 4th seed in the West with bad defense, when 2/3 of PSD had Houston in 6th with the Dwight signing.. and I caught that Low Key Dwight hate thread earlier.. Keep Hating tho

Reyes6
04-17-2014, 07:57 PM
They tell him to zone and he just zones out. But seriously when I watch them and I see a guy streak to the basket I always noticed James putting his hand up or making a face. He plays between the post and perimeter but guards neither. In the playoffs I think he will amp up his defense...I think he saves energy for offense/staying healthy for the season.

It's really the combo of him and Lin on the floor when we really suffer, it's like 3 on 5 sometimes. But they can score 110+, so offense is the mindset. The playoffs will be the true test.

Tony_Starks
04-17-2014, 07:58 PM
This is why McHale moved Lin to the bench. A Lin/Harden backcourt was completely promiscuous....

FOBolous
04-17-2014, 08:00 PM
i can't see the video because i'm at work but please tell me it's not the same clip from the beginning of the season that people has been posting over and over again.

Lakers + Giants
04-17-2014, 08:00 PM
Wasn't there a thread on this, just a couple of weeks ago? People act like James Harden is the first guy to play bad defense.. Its a shame too because that's the only thing people can use to try to discredit how GREAT a player he is.. 4th seed in the West with bad defense, when 2/3 of PSD had Houston in 6th with the Dwight signing.. and I caught that Low Key Dwight hate thread earlier.. Keep Hating tho

The thing is I've seen a few people say he has improved his Defense a lot this year, and that it's just a common misconception that he is a bad defender. That's not true at all. Maybe he has improved, but he's still a bad defender. IF he becomes a good defender, then watch out, it will be game over.

leprechaun5
04-17-2014, 08:24 PM
i can't see the video because i'm at work but please tell me it's not the same clip from the beginning of the season that people has been posting over and over again.

This was uploaded today and highlights are all from this season .

goingfor28
04-17-2014, 08:32 PM
I like his style. Let the offensive man go by with ease then swing at him on the drive by

NBA_Starter
04-17-2014, 08:41 PM
Pretty much sums it up.

ILLUSIONIST^248
04-17-2014, 08:43 PM
Yeah, that's why he's still overrated, true superstars are two way players

ILLUSIONIST^248
04-17-2014, 08:45 PM
Wow, when you watch a compilation it gets even worse. He has to be one of the biggest ball watchers ever.

ILLUSIONIST^248
04-17-2014, 08:49 PM
"Defensive juggernaut " :laugh2:


At 2:20, that has got to be the most pathetic play ever.

therealwd27
04-17-2014, 09:07 PM
god though, that video is exactly what I continue to say. Harden watches the ball on defense like its a pair of boobs, and loses his man constantly. I just don't get how Rockets fans can defend his defense so hard, though I know in the main forum there is always a pack mentality with every fanbase.

But as a Rockets fan, can you seriously tell me that at least 4-5 times a game, you aren't screaming at your television because Harden just totally screwed up and **** the bed defensively? I know I do

This. The way he attempts to steal the ball is very elementary

KnicksorBust
04-17-2014, 09:14 PM
Yeah, that's why he's still overrated, true superstars are two way players

Tell that to Magic Johnson or Bill Russell.

KnicksorBust
04-17-2014, 09:16 PM
god though, that video is exactly what I continue to say. Harden watches the ball on defense like its a pair of boobs, and loses his man constantly. I just don't get how Rockets fans can defend his defense so hard, though I know in the main forum there is always a pack mentality with every fanbase.

Felton imagines a cheeseburger.


But as a Rockets fan, can you seriously tell me that at least 4-5 times a game, you aren't screaming at your television because Harden just totally screwed up and **** the bed defensively? I know I do

You know what's funny? He rates out pretty well on synergy. Opposing players only shoot 38% from the field and 32% from 3pt against him. Makes you wonder...

NYJ - NYY
04-17-2014, 09:22 PM
I got 30 seconds in and I had to stop watching

Hawkeye15
04-17-2014, 09:24 PM
Felton imagines a cheeseburger.

is that why he is licking his lips all the time while his guy goes backdoor on him?


You know what's funny? He rates out pretty well on synergy. Opposing players only shoot 38% from the field and 32% from 3pt against him. Makes you wonder...

Shows you 2 things:

How weak the SG position in right now
Parsons typically takes the better offensive wing if the matchup is applicable.

Did you see the new RPM stat from espn? I am still trying to figure out its merit, but Harden was like 300 something on defense in the league.

goingfor28
04-17-2014, 09:40 PM
I also like the jump-clap and the stand still don't move

naps
04-17-2014, 09:42 PM
Wasn't there a thread on this, just a couple of weeks ago? People act like James Harden is the first guy to play bad defense.. Its a shame too because that's the only thing people can use to try to discredit how GREAT a player he is.. 4th seed in the West with bad defense, when 2/3 of PSD had Houston in 6th with the Dwight signing.. and I caught that Low Key Dwight hate thread earlier.. Keep Hating tho

I don't think people hate Houston as much as you are making it out to be. If you notice, Dwight is not as hated as he used to be anymore. Harden is obnoxiously bad on defense. I am not so sure how you guys don't see. Ofcourse, there are worse defensive players around the league but I don't see anyone playing this bad defense who is rated as high as Harden. His defensive recklessness is the only reason I have always thought he's an overrated player.

ILLUSIONIST^248
04-17-2014, 09:59 PM
Yeah, that's why he's still overrated, true superstars are two way players

Tell that to Magic Johnson or Bill Russell.

How dare you compare harden to magic, magic wasn't the best defender , but he was no where near as bad as harden. What a gross post by you.

Hawkeye15
04-17-2014, 10:03 PM
How dare you compare harden to magic, magic wasn't the best defender , but he was no where near as bad as harden. What a gross post by you.

you made the claim that you can't be a superstar as a one way player. Magic and Russell were absolutely one way players. I think Russell is very overrated personally, but Magic is in my top 5, despite being a poor defender.

Who do you think the Pistons attacked all night long in the 89' finals? Whomever Magic was guarding, they went straight to.

3Blueforyou
04-17-2014, 10:38 PM
Lol that was worse than I thought It was going to be. He was jumping at pump fakes that nobody made, I can't believe he can't even simply pay attention to his Mann on d. In so many of those clips it's seems like 4 rockets are playing tight man then there is just one guy standing around usually not to close to the guy he is covering.

Tony_Starks
04-17-2014, 10:50 PM
Tell that to Magic Johnson or Bill Russell.

Magic was not a good one on one defender but great a team defender..... Harden? Not so much.

Tony_Starks
04-17-2014, 10:53 PM
you made the claim that you can't be a superstar as a one way player. Magic and Russell were absolutely one way players. I think Russell is very overrated personally, but Magic is in my top 5, despite being a poor defender.

Who do you think the Pistons attacked all night long in the 89' finals? Whomever Magic was guarding, they went straight to.

Incorrect, the only time the Pistons ever beat the Lakers in the Finals Magic pulled a hammy and missed half the series....

Hawkeye15
04-17-2014, 10:54 PM
Magic was not a good one on one defender but great a team defender..... Harden? Not so much.

huh? Russell was an incredible defender, but stunk offensively is his point.

And Magic was not a great team defender. He was a really bad one on one defender, and average at best as a team defender. But his coach and team were built to just overwhelm you offensively. They had some very good team defense, but it was at Magic's expense much of the time.

Hawkeye15
04-17-2014, 10:55 PM
Incorrect, the only time the Pistons ever beat the Lakers in the Finals Magic pulled a hammy and missed half the series....

yep, and was being targeted by the Pistons before it happened. Dumars ate him up on that end.

Once Magic went down, the sweep was a formality.

BenFrank
04-17-2014, 11:02 PM
NBA.com listed him as a MVP candidate.. along with KD, Lebron and BG!! Dare I say he's a top four player? NBA.com thinks so lol

Bruno
04-17-2014, 11:05 PM
i know were beating a dead horse here but I feel like you almost have to try to be that unaware when it comes to some of these cuts and off ball defense. who does he think he is, 34 year old Kobe?

kobe was never this bad. not even last year.

beyourself
04-17-2014, 11:06 PM
Harden actually seems like a nice guy so it's tough for me to say this. But I think he plays selfishly.

So many of his defensive lapses come off ball where he doesn't look nearly as bad if he just slacked on 1-on-1 defense. This tells me his awareness is horrible and he's not concerned with help defense or defense in general as long as he doesn't get shown up 1-on-1.

He also overdribbles and likes to get his. I remember one time he drove to the rim, looked at his teammate wide open in the corner (forgot who it was). You know what he does next? He looks at the open man, but then puts his head down into a wall of big men.

beyourself
04-17-2014, 11:07 PM
NBA.com listed him as a MVP candidate.. along with KD, Lebron and BG!! Dare I say he's a top four player? NBA.com thinks so lol

That's 1 man. Jesus, why does everybody care about one narrative driven writers list?

beyourself
04-17-2014, 11:08 PM
i know were beating a dead horse here but I feel like you almost have to try to be that unaware when it comes to some of these cuts and off ball defense. who does he think he is, 34 year old Kobe?

kobe was never this bad. not even last year.

Kobe in the regular season went through stretches where he simply mailed it in on defense the regular season and made sure he got his. But he always turned up the defensive effort in the playoffs.

Crackadalic
04-17-2014, 11:10 PM
Damn didn't think it be this bad. It's worse then I thought.

BenFrank
04-17-2014, 11:12 PM
That's 1 man. Jesus, why does everybody care about one narrative driven writers list?

lol, U mad or Nah

Bruno
04-17-2014, 11:19 PM
Kobe in the regular season went through stretches where he simply mailed it in on defense the regular season and made sure he got his. But he always turned up the defensive effort in the playoffs.
he mailed it in for a while but he was never as consistently unaware as harden is. late era kobe would get burned on gambles he became accustomed to when he had a more athletic body but that's a bit different than having low defensive awareness and not knowing where your match up is on the floor. some of these back door burns are obscene.

Tony_Starks
04-17-2014, 11:20 PM
i know were beating a dead horse here but I feel like you almost have to try to be that unaware when it comes to some of these cuts and off ball defense. who does he think he is, 34 year old Kobe?

kobe was never this bad. not even last year.

With Harden its just pure laziness, it's not like he doesn't have the quickness or ability to keep someone in front of him.

Letting someone just blow by you then swiping at the ball as they go by is something 40 year old guys at the Y do.

Check Harden out at the Drew league in Cali during the summer, you would think he's Gary F-ing Payton!

Hawkeye15
04-17-2014, 11:21 PM
With Harden its just pure laziness, it's not like he doesn't have the quickness or ability to keep someone in front of him.

Letting someone just blow by you then swiping at the ball as they go by is something 40 year old guys at the Y do.

Check Harden out at the Drew league in Cali during the summer, you would think he's Gary F-ing Payton!

I dont think its laziness, I think he really has no defensive awareness at all.

leprechaun5
04-17-2014, 11:32 PM
NBA.com listed him as a MVP candidate.. along with KD, Lebron and BG!! Dare I say he's a top four player? NBA.com thinks so lol

nba.com and espn "analysts" once had Rondo top 8 in MVP race when he wasn't a top 4 player in our team ...

shep33
04-17-2014, 11:41 PM
He's beyond horrible on defense. 90% of it is just laziness, he puts himself in terrible situations with poor positioning. I don't understand why he's ball watching so much.

Bruno
04-18-2014, 12:02 AM
With Harden its just pure laziness, it's not like he doesn't have the quickness or ability to keep someone in front of him.

Letting someone just blow by you then swiping at the ball as they go by is something 40 year old guys at the Y do.

Check Harden out at the Drew league in Cali during the summer, you would think he's Gary F-ing Payton!

i think harden has poor awareness but i also think he's consciously pacing himself to a fault to a small extent. i think that explains the lack of intensity, the mental errors come down to awareness.

i actually saw Drew League vs Goodman League during the lockout at CSU Long Beach. Durant and Harden carried to their teams and both put up 45+ while guarding each other in the 4th. i can't say I noticed any obscenely bad defense from him that day, although I'd like to rewatch the video. Wall was a monster that night too. i think he had the game high.

Sadds The Gr8
04-18-2014, 12:02 AM
i love him but hard to defend his god awful defense

Supreme LA
04-18-2014, 12:15 AM
Well the fact that he isn't a two-way player allows him to conserve more energy for offense. I think if he actually put any effort on defense he wouldn't have enough to drive to basket as much on offense. So it's really pick what your team needs most at this point which is scoring.

goku
04-18-2014, 12:17 AM
I just hope he ups his defense during the playoffs cause when I watch harden is not that he is bad he just doesn't try on that end I find myself screaming at the TV at times but he usually makes it up on the other end of the floor all in all in the playoffs u cant hold back on any side of the court

ILLUSIONIST^248
04-18-2014, 12:23 AM
How dare you compare harden to magic, magic wasn't the best defender , but he was no where near as bad as harden. What a gross post by you.

you made the claim that you can't be a superstar as a one way player. Magic and Russell were absolutely one way players. I think Russell is very overrated personally, but Magic is in my top 5, despite being a poor defender.

Who do you think the Pistons attacked all night long in the 89' finals? Whomever Magic was guarding, they went straight to.

He's wasn't as bad as you make it seem, but let's just say magic. Is an exception.

Bill Russell has always been highly overrated to me.

Iggz53
04-18-2014, 12:47 AM
Barkley

Hawkeye15
04-18-2014, 12:59 AM
He's wasn't as bad as you make it seem, but let's just say magic. Is an exception.

Bill Russell has always been highly overrated to me.

Magic was a poor defender. I actually watched him play.

And yeah, Russell is overrated to me as well. We actually agree on something. The universe may end now...

mightybosstone
04-18-2014, 01:01 AM
I've run out of ****s to give about PSD's view of Harden. Does the guy suck at man-to-man perimeter defense? Most definitely. He's not laterally quick enough to stay with most SGs. If he got to defend SFs instead, he'd do much better. He also excels at post defense, but he's usually either matched up with SGs who don't dare post him up or against forward who are tall enough to shoot around him. I'm not making excuses though. He's a terrible perimeter defender.

But I've said it before and I'll say it again. Harden is arguably the third most potent scorer in the NBA and his offense prowess completely dwarfs his defensive deficiencies. I'll take an elite offensive wing who can't defend quick perimeter guards over a pretty good offensive player who excels at perimeter defense 99 times out of 100.

ThuglifeJ
04-18-2014, 01:16 AM
Disturbing

Don't get it tho. You can be a bad defender.. that'd understandable..but this is a joke..you could throw middle schooler out there and know what to do better than Harden.

Hawkeye15
04-18-2014, 01:25 AM
I've run out of ****s to give about PSD's view of Harden. Does the guy suck at man-to-man perimeter defense? Most definitely. He's not laterally quick enough to stay with most SGs. If he got to defend SFs instead, he'd do much better. He also excels at post defense, but he's usually either matched up with SGs who don't dare post him up or against forward who are tall enough to shoot around him. I'm not making excuses though. He's a terrible perimeter defender.

But I've said it before and I'll say it again. Harden is arguably the third most potent scorer in the NBA and his offense prowess completely dwarfs his defensive deficiencies. I'll take an elite offensive wing who can't defend quick perimeter guards over a pretty good offensive player who excels at perimeter defense 99 times out of 100.

Oh I agree with you, but his post defense is presented how many times a game?

Look, Harden is someone I would LOVE to have on my team, he just sucks on defense.

mightybosstone
04-18-2014, 01:34 AM
Disturbing

Don't get it tho. You can be a bad defender.. that'd understandable..but this is a joke..you could throw middle schooler out there and know what to do better than Harden.

No player is perfect and unless you're Lebron James or Kevin Durant, you're going to have some pretty significant holes in your game. Harden and Love can't defend their positions well. Blake still needs a more reliable outside shot and could make improvements on defense and on the glass. Curry's no great perimeter defender and needs to drive to the rim far more often.

The guy's not perfect, but he's fantastic at what he does well. As long as the Rockets keep winning games and he keeps dominating on offense, I don't care if stands at the other end of the court on defense and has a little ****ing tea party once or twice a game.

ricky recon
04-18-2014, 01:47 AM
He literally get's back-door'ed more than any player I've ever seen. Ever.

It really comes down to focus, intelligence, and effort, which he consistently shows to not possess on the defensive end.

ricky recon
04-18-2014, 01:48 AM
Tell that to Magic Johnson or Bill Russell.

Superstars don't have to be be great on offense and defense.

However, I don't see how you can be a major liability to the entire team defense and be a superstar.

ThuglifeJ
04-18-2014, 01:51 AM
Harden is an embarrassment to basketball to me. Some will agree, some disagree.

ricky recon
04-18-2014, 01:53 AM
I love "PSD's view on Harden".

What is that even supposed to mean? He's a terrible defender. He's not marginal or below average, he's terrible. Guys like Durant and Dirk are above average, they aren't exceptional by any means, but they understand they play a role and both are active guys on defense who make plays on D every game. Shoot, even Carmelo Anthony isn't bad a lot. Again, probably an average defender all in all, but not a ****ing joke.

Harden is a joke on defense. It's terrible sometimes. That compilation is a joke.

ThuglifeJ
04-18-2014, 01:55 AM
Disturbing

Don't get it tho. You can be a bad defender.. that'd understandable..but this is a joke..you could throw middle schooler out there and know what to do better than Harden.

No player is perfect and unless you're Lebron James or Kevin Durant, you're going to have some pretty significant holes in your game. Harden and Love can't defend their positions well. Blake still needs a more reliable outside shot and could make improvements on defense and on the glass. Curry's no great perimeter defender and needs to drive to the rim far more often.

The guy's not perfect, but he's fantastic at what he does well. As long as the Rockets keep winning games and he keeps dominating on offense, I don't care if stands at the other end of the court on defense and has a little ****ing tea party once or twice a game.

But this is like the worst I've ever seen.

ricky recon
04-18-2014, 01:57 AM
Harden is an embarrassment to basketball to me. Some will agree, some disagree.

Yeah, and considering he isn't a great shooter or a great post, it honestly pisses me off.

He is literally is an all star because he knows how to get fouled, and that's not stretching the truth.

FOBolous
04-18-2014, 02:35 AM
Yeah, and considering he isn't a great shooter or a great post, it honestly pisses me off.

He is literally is an all star because he knows how to get fouled, and that's not stretching the truth.

Yup. You right. He wouldn't have his above average fg% and 3p% if it isn't for the refs.

ThuglifeJ
04-18-2014, 02:36 AM
I've run out of ****s to give about PSD's view of Harden. Does the guy suck at man-to-man perimeter defense? Most definitely. He's not laterally quick enough to stay with most SGs. If he got to defend SFs instead, he'd do much better. He also excels at post defense, but he's usually either matched up with SGs who don't dare post him up or against forward who are tall enough to shoot around him. I'm not making excuses though. He's a terrible perimeter defender.

But I've said it before and I'll say it again. Harden is arguably the third most potent scorer in the NBA and his offense prowess completely dwarfs his defensive deficiencies. I'll take an elite offensive wing who can't defend quick perimeter guards over a pretty good offensive player who excels at perimeter defense 99 times out of 100.

Clearly you do give a ****.

TrueFan420
04-18-2014, 02:43 AM
No player is perfect and unless you're Lebron James or Kevin Durant, you're going to have some pretty significant holes in your game. Harden and Love can't defend their positions well. Blake still needs a more reliable outside shot and could make improvements on defense and on the glass. Curry's no great perimeter defender and needs to drive to the rim far more often.

The guy's not perfect, but he's fantastic at what he does well. As long as the Rockets keep winning games and he keeps dominating on offense, I don't care if stands at the other end of the court on defense and has a little ****ing tea party once or twice a game.

See my problem with harden and his defense is 100% effort related. Curry wasn't a great defender but has become a solid one by simply putting more effort into defense. A lot of times I see harden defending he simply seems disinterested. There's been quite a few times where he just hasn't watched his defender and stares down the ball handler while his defender makes the easiest cut to the hoop in the world. That's easily corrected but yet still hasn't been.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
04-18-2014, 02:47 AM
wow, I think even Amare is better on D

Hawkeye15
04-18-2014, 02:50 AM
jesus, even though I crap on Harden's defense, if you really think he isn't a top 7-14 player in the game, you are ridiculous.

Offensively, he is as elite as it gets, when you get past LeBron/Durant. He is SO good on that end. He can be covered up on the other side, and in all reality, there have been some all timers who sucked on defense..

ThuglifeJ
04-18-2014, 02:53 AM
Yeah, and considering he isn't a great shooter or a great post, it honestly pisses me off.

He is literally is an all star because he knows how to get fouled, and that's not stretching the truth.

I don't have much wrong with his shot or offensive skill..

I just cant stand anything else about him, the way he plays has become a joke. I don't know him personally, but Just seeing him walk around with his laissez faire attitude and large ego/body language that gets on my nerves, and I'm sure others as well. It's just irritating. The lazy defense. I've never seen someone who's entire focus is to play the refs..he doesn't even look to score half the time. The snapping his head back, flailing around for calls, both ends.. it shouldn't be allowed. Hell it's not, but he gets away with it.
I don't think he is even that great, he relies on the refs giving him calls. It's absurd. Never seen anything like this in basketball. I've seen Wade with his pump fake then flailing on the floor..Pierce with his pull through, Griffin Flopping, Lebron snapping head back..but they are still respectable players, they don't base their game off this, it's just one of their moves.. Harden literally spends the entire game forcing the refs to make calls by not playing basketball but doing whatever he does, hitting the floor, snapping his head back not even looking to score.

TheNumber37
04-18-2014, 03:12 AM
How does a team have a game plan that includes cutting backdoor when Harden is not looking

ILLUSIONIST^248
04-18-2014, 03:24 AM
I've run out of ****s to give about PSD's view of Harden. Does the guy suck at man-to-man perimeter defense? Most definitely. He's not laterally quick enough to stay with most SGs. If he got to defend SFs instead, he'd do much better. He also excels at post defense, but he's usually either matched up with SGs who don't dare post him up or against forward who are tall enough to shoot around him. I'm not making excuses though. He's a terrible perimeter defender.

But I've said it before and I'll say it again. Harden is arguably the third most potent scorer in the NBA and his offense prowess completely dwarfs his defensive deficiencies. I'll take an elite offensive wing who can't defend quick perimeter guards over a pretty good offensive player who excels at perimeter defense 99 times out of 100.

That was a cute rant.

rockets-fan
04-18-2014, 03:39 AM
Yeah, and considering he isn't a great shooter or a great post, it honestly pisses me off.

He is literally is an all star because he knows how to get fouled, and that's not stretching the truth.

Soooooo if he gets 10 fts a game, a little less I think, and makes 8... Where do the other 18 points a game come from? Does he flop, YES, but that's not all he is and it's a shame that someone of his talent gets viewed that way by do many people.

Harden scores, and he's one of the best period.

shep33
04-18-2014, 04:18 AM
Haha, I love how he swipes at the ball after his man beats him easily off the dribble. Dude is fantastic on offense, and I've seen him play solid 1-on-1 defense before, but he's just lazy. And if you're lazy, you can't be a good defender

0nekhmer
04-18-2014, 04:21 AM
It's not just the defense, hardens also a terrible rebounder who leaks out every possession. I guess he has good personnel around him, but he's far from a superstar

archdevil84
04-18-2014, 06:53 AM
Harden is an embarrassment to basketball to me. Some will agree, some disagree.

i agree a full 100%!!!

DitchDat
04-18-2014, 07:04 AM
That's what really frustrates me about watching him play. He has the tools, he just doesn't try.

PurpleLynch
04-18-2014, 07:18 AM
Same answer I gave in a similar thread:he has the tools(maybe lacks lateral quickness),but he has the tools to be a good defender. Right now he's a poor defender.He's still young obviously,but he has to improve his overall defense.

arlubas
04-18-2014, 07:55 AM
Lmao @ this. Yeah I know he saves energy for the offense but c'mon now, his D is atrocious from what I can tell from this vid. What I really loved was how he almost never even tried to guard those baseline cuts. It's like "meh, if he goes there he goes there".

mightybosstone
04-18-2014, 10:00 AM
Harden is an embarrassment to basketball to me. Some will agree, some disagree.

I love "PSD's view on Harden".

What is that even supposed to mean? He's a terrible defender. He's not marginal or below average, he's terrible. Guys like Durant and Dirk are above average, they aren't exceptional by any means, but they understand they play a role and both are active guys on defense who make plays on D every game. Shoot, even Carmelo Anthony isn't bad a lot. Again, probably an average defender all in all, but not a ****ing joke.

Harden is a joke on defense. It's terrible sometimes. That compilation is a joke.

But this is like the worst I've ever seen.
Okay, here's the thing. Harden is a terrible perimeter defender more often than not. Nobody in this thread is remotely debating that. But notice how Rockets fans are defending him. General PSD fans rip the guy like crazy when they see videos like this, but you're all reacting to a single video showing his every mistake. If you looked at any player over a long enough time frame, you could make a similar video. We Rockets fans watch damn near every game. We see these lapses in judgment on defense and we curse the guy probably 3-5 times a game for it. But you know what? We quickly get over when he nails a 3-pointer in transition or goes on scoring runs by himself that carry the team on his back.

You can all ***** and moan over how terrible a defender is, but every single NBA fan in this thread would love a player like Harden on their team. Sure, 95 percent of his effort is on the offensive end, but when you're getting arguably the third best offensive player in the league, you'll take it and you won't think twice about it. Also, perimeter defense is a little overrated. That's not to say a great perimeter defender can't still have an incredible impact on the game, but even the worst perimeter defender can be hidden by good team defense and post defense.


Yeah, and considering he isn't a great shooter or a great post, it honestly pisses me off.

He is literally is an all star because he knows how to get fouled, and that's not stretching the truth.

And this is just ****ing stupid. I was fine with your comments until you went out of your way to some something totally ignorant that you have absolutely no justification for. The dude shot 52% on 2s, 37% on 3s and 87% on FTs this season. He's an excellent shooter. In fact, he shot 42% from the 3-point line post All-Star break once he was finally healthy.

As for drawing contact, I've brought this up a dozen times, and I guess I'll have to keep doing it. Less than eight of Harden's 25.4 points come from free throws. Even if you took away all of the "unfair" calls he gets and we assume half of his free throws every game come from bogus foul calls he didn't deserve (which is a MASSIVE overstatement), he'd still average 21.5 points per game. He'd still be an All-Star and he'd still be the best SG in the league.

mightybosstone
04-18-2014, 10:05 AM
That was a cute rant.
Everything you say is cute, Illusionist. You're like the three-legged cat at the pound that nobody wants. Everyone walks by and says "Aww," but they really just feel sorry for how pathetic you are and how completely ill-equipped you are to deal with the real world.

Although it's worth noting that my roommate in college had a three-legged cat who was bad *** and everyone really liked. And he was probably more capable at getting around than you are at arguing sports. So, really, I'd give the three-legged cat a pretty substantial edge over you.

arlubas
04-18-2014, 10:18 AM
As for drawing contact, I've brought this up a dozen times, and I guess I'll have to keep doing it. Less than eight of Harden's 25.4 points come from free throws. Even if you took away all of the "unfair" calls he gets and we assume half of his free throws every game come from bogus foul calls he didn't deserve (which is a MASSIVE overstatement), he'd still average 21.5 points per game. He'd still be an All-Star and he'd still be the best SG in the league.
Harden is fun to watch and one of the best offensive weapons in the league right now, no doubt. But how he tries to earn bogus fouls should not be up for debate. If he rises up for a three and a defender is close to him he always falls to the ground trying to earn the call. And he does a lot of the times. So all that talk about his FT shooting isn't completely unwarranted.

archdevil84
04-18-2014, 10:24 AM
Everything you say is cute, Illusionist. You're like the three-legged cat at the pound that nobody wants. Everyone walks by and says "Aww," but they really just feel sorry for how pathetic you are and how completely ill-equipped you are to deal with the real world.

Although it's worth noting that my roommate in college had a three-legged cat who was bad *** and everyone really liked. And he was probably more capable at getting around than you are at arguing sports. So, really, I'd give the three-legged cat a pretty substantial edge over you.

agreed :D

KnicksorBust
04-18-2014, 11:41 AM
Harden is the 4th best offensive player in the world. He can afford to make some mistakes defensively. It's not like HOU doesn't have defenders to help cover up those mistakes.

kdspurman
04-18-2014, 11:41 AM
does the coaching staff just accept how bad he is?

D-Leethal
04-18-2014, 11:53 AM
But hey, if you can flop your way to a drool worthy TS%, who cares about your defense?

Bruno
04-18-2014, 12:59 PM
i gotta say, most of his blunders are off the ball. maybe he's mediocre on the ball and not terrible. houston fans?

Reyes6
04-18-2014, 01:26 PM
His defense isn't to the point where I scream at my TV (usually computer to watch the Rockets) because it is so awful, it's just certain times during a game you'll see an easy basket and it'll 80% of the time be Harden. But he more than makes up for it on the offensive end. It's not like the Rockets team is a defensive juggernaut, their focus is on outscoring their opponents and going on defensive runs with Asik/Howard stopping inside and Beverly stopping outside. He's still young and will need to play more D in the playoffs, we will see how he does.

mightybosstone
04-18-2014, 04:48 PM
i gotta say, most of his blunders are off the ball. maybe he's mediocre on the ball and not terrible. houston fans?

I'd say that's a pretty fair assumption. On the ball, he's just bad, but off the ball he's pretty terrible. As Hawkeye as said, the problem is that he has tunnel vision for whoever has the ball in his hands. While he's staring down the basketball, he completely loses track of his man, who either has more than enough space for a wide open 3-pointer or has moved around the half court to a point where he can either set a pick for someone or drive straight to the rim. This happens a couple of times every game.

On the ball, he at least puts forth the effort, but he's still not great. He's just not laterally quick enough to stay in front of quicker guards. I think he actually does a much better job defending forwards on the perimeter, because they aren't quick enough to drive right past him and he can use his strength to keep them in from of him. I think that's one of many reasons why the Rockets small ball lineup with Beverley, Lin and Harden on the floor is so effective.

mightybosstone
04-18-2014, 04:48 PM
But hey, if you can flop your way to a drool worthy TS%, who cares about your defense?

This is just an ignorant ****ing thing to say. I'd expect better of you.

valade16
04-18-2014, 04:57 PM
I'd say that's a pretty fair assumption. On the ball, he's just bad, but off the ball he's pretty terrible. As Hawkeye as said, the problem is that he has tunnel vision for whoever has the ball in his hands. While he's staring down the basketball, he completely loses track of his man, who either has more than enough space for a wide open 3-pointer or has moved around the half court to a point where he can either set a pick for someone or drive straight to the rim. This happens a couple of times every game.

On the ball, he at least puts forth the effort, but he's still not great. He's just not laterally quick enough to stay in front of quicker guards. I think he actually does a much better job defending forwards on the perimeter, because they aren't quick enough to drive right past him and he can use his strength to keep them in from of him. I think that's one of many reasons why the Rockets small ball lineup with Beverley, Lin and Harden on the floor is so effective.

It's not even quicker guards. I have seen guys who are far slower than him blow right past him. He doesn’t move his feet at all, he stays completely flat footed and waits for the guy to go around him and then makes a haphazard steal attempt. His defense is truly pathetic. It wouldn’t be fair to say his defense is as bad as his offense because his offense is that good, but it’s a pretty close comparison.

Spanklin
04-18-2014, 05:07 PM
god though, that video is exactly what I continue to say. Harden watches the ball on defense like its a pair of boobs, and loses his man constantly. I just don't get how Rockets fans can defend his defense so hard, though I know in the main forum there is always a pack mentality with every fanbase.

But as a Rockets fan, can you seriously tell me that at least 4-5 times a game, you aren't screaming at your television because Harden just totally screwed up and **** the bed defensively? I know I do

Pretty much. That would be like me defending Steph Curry's defense, which, at times, is only second worst pg defense to Steve Blake's. You know how many times I've seen him fall on his backside this season on crossovers? We're not talking the ankle breaking variety either, just run of the mill cross over and whoop! there Curry goes...

In Harden's defense, he will step up the D in the playoffs. I wish I could say the same for Curry, but he doesn't have the ability to defend at an elite level like Harden does.

ThuglifeJ
04-18-2014, 06:07 PM
But hey, if you can flop your way to a drool worthy TS%, who cares about your defense?

This is just an ignorant ****ing thing to say. I'd expect better of you.

Or maybe your just wrong. I mean its not a coincidence only rockets fans are defending him

mightybosstone
04-18-2014, 06:16 PM
Or maybe your just wrong. I mean its not a coincidence only rockets fans are defending him

Except I'm not, and the numbers completely support me. You can claim that all he does is flop to generate offense, but that's a blatantly incorrect statement with nothing whatsoever to support it. The burden of proof does not belong to the person trying to disprove something, but on the person trying to prove it. If you're going to suggest that Harden is only effective because he flops, let's see an argument that supports it other than "I see him flop sometimes." That's not an argument, nor is it a legitimate basis for trying to disprove an athlete's worth.

sens#11fan
04-18-2014, 06:33 PM
LOL, reminds me of the guys i play pickup ball with. They go off on offense and then ball watch on defense.

P&GRealist
04-18-2014, 06:33 PM
James Harden what? :confused:

Bruno
04-18-2014, 06:52 PM
I'd say that's a pretty fair assumption. On the ball, he's just bad, but off the ball he's pretty terrible. As Hawkeye as said, the problem is that he has tunnel vision for whoever has the ball in his hands. While he's staring down the basketball, he completely loses track of his man, who either has more than enough space for a wide open 3-pointer or has moved around the half court to a point where he can either set a pick for someone or drive straight to the rim. This happens a couple of times every game.

On the ball, he at least puts forth the effort, but he's still not great. He's just not laterally quick enough to stay in front of quicker guards. I think he actually does a much better job defending forwards on the perimeter, because they aren't quick enough to drive right past him and he can use his strength to keep them in from of him. I think that's one of many reasons why the Rockets small ball lineup with Beverley, Lin and Harden on the floor is so effective.
that makes sense.

goingfor28
04-18-2014, 07:12 PM
Or maybe your just wrong. I mean its not a coincidence only rockets fans are defending him

Exactly. He shoots such a high percentage bc half his misses are him flailing and falling yo get fouled, so the shot attempts don't count

ThuglifeJ
04-18-2014, 08:36 PM
Or maybe your just wrong. I mean its not a coincidence only rockets fans are defending him

Exactly. He shoots such a high percentage bc half his misses are him flailing and falling yo get fouled, so the shot attempts don't count

Yup, its sad. Sometimes he doesn't even try to shoot it, just fully goes for a foul call

mightybosstone
04-18-2014, 09:25 PM
Exactly. He shoots such a high percentage bc half his misses are him flailing and falling yo get fouled, so the shot attempts don't count

Yup, its sad. Sometimes he doesn't even try to shoot it, just fully goes for a foul call

:facepalm: Okay, so let's assume 25% of every foul Harden draws on a shot attempt is a flop. That seems like more than fair. Considering he shoots about 9 FTA per game and one of those trips to the line could feasibly be a 3-pointer, we'll just take away two of his free throw attempts and we'll add 1 FGA per game to counter that. He'd STILL shoot about 43% from the floor. And while I can't calculate TS%, I'm guessing he'd still be hovering around a 58-60% TS%, which is still insanely efficient.

So, again, your arguments are clearly flawed. The few successful flops which lead to Harden making free throws do not account for enough of his production to make a substantial difference. You can rip on the guy all you want to, but the numbers bear out the fact that he's a phenomenal offensive player. I'd like to see you provide one shred of evidence that suggests he's only a great offensive player because he draws fouls on flops.

ricky recon
04-18-2014, 09:47 PM
Yup. You right. He wouldn't have his above average fg% and 3p% if it isn't for the refs.

The league average for 2013-2014 for 3P% is 36%. His is 36.6%. Average.

The league average for 2013-2014 FG% is 45.4%. His is 45.6%. Average.

I am right. You are wrong.

Shlumpledink
04-18-2014, 09:47 PM
i'm glad this video has been made, there has been a lot of talk about how good his defense is.

In all honesty he looks like Kobe does with the centerfield defense. It greatly compromises your team defense as it forces rotations which lead to wide open dunks/ shots. Kobe loses his man plenty, but in his prime he was one of the best off-ball defenders of all time, while being a good man defender.

Not to turn this into a kobe comparison thread, I just want to point out that harden plays defense like a 34 yr old kobe bryant.

BenFrank
04-18-2014, 09:48 PM
:facepalm: Okay, so let's assume 25% of every foul Harden draws on a shot attempt is a flop. That seems like more than fair. Considering he shoots about 9 FTA per game and one of those trips to the line could feasibly be a 3-pointer, we'll just take away two of his free throw attempts and we'll add 1 FGA per game to counter that. He'd STILL shoot about 43% from the floor. And while I can't calculate TS%, I'm guessing he'd still be hovering around a 58-60% TS%, which is still insanely efficient.

So, again, your arguments are clearly flawed. The few successful flops which lead to Harden making free throws do not account for enough of his production to make a substantial difference. You can rip on the guy all you want to, but the numbers bear out the fact that he's a phenomenal offensive player. I'd like to see you provide one shred of evidence that suggests he's only a great offensive player because he draws fouls on flops.

Fanboys will do anything to take away from Hardens Greatness.. if there not complaining about his defense, then its about flopping, but no one ever mentions Chris Paul, Durant, Wade, and every other superstar floppier.. Harden is the only one guilty of this.. and then have the nerve to call him overrated when he averages 25/6/5.. That's why I can't take most of these psd'ers seriously

ricky recon
04-18-2014, 09:58 PM
Let me just be very specific, so I am not misspoken.

Harden flat out blows at defense, and that isn't a hyperbole. The fact that his offensive game revolves around getting fouled, and throw in the fact he overplays the **** out of most of his fouls to the point it gets replayed for comedy, is annoying.

Is he a solid shooter? Yes. Great? No. Is he a great post player? No.

He's like: (Step under Prime Wade) + (better shooter) - (worse finisher) - (post skill)....

....but instead of having great defense, he's one of the worst in the league on all levels.

beasted86
04-18-2014, 11:22 PM
I've already said it myself... he is one of the worst defenders in the NBA.

He is always left ball watching, he rarely ever gets into a defensive stance is always upright half the time, his closeout anticipation is awful, and he refuses to fit over most screens.

He's just terrible. You have low basketball IQ if your think he's a decent defender.

KnicksorBust
04-18-2014, 11:24 PM
I've already said it myself... he is one of the worst defenders in the NBA.

He is always left ball watching, he rarely ever gets into a defensive stance is always upright half the time, his closeout anticipation is awful, and he refuses to fit over most screens.

He's just terrible. You have low basketball IQ if your think he's a decent defender.

He only allowed opponents to shoot 38 % from the field and 32% from 3pt. You are wrong.

beasted86
04-18-2014, 11:26 PM
Let me just be very specific, so I am not misspoken.

Harden flat out blows at defense, and that isn't a hyperbole. The fact that his offensive game revolves around getting fouled, and throw in the fact he overplays the **** out of most of his fouls to the point it gets replayed for comedy, is annoying.

Is he a solid shooter? Yes. Great? No. Is he a great post player? No.

He's like: (Step under Prime Wade) + (better shooter) - (worse finisher) - (post skill)....

....but instead of having great defense, he's one of the worst in the league on all levels.

Step under prime Wade, even just offensively? Do you watch the NBA?

beasted86
04-18-2014, 11:33 PM
He only allowed opponents to shoot 38 % from the field and 32% from 3pt. You are wrong.

You mean his team did. Beasley's sophomore season he posted the same type of elite arbitrary stats that are really attributed to the team rather than the player. If you watched Beasley then (and even now) he's a terrible defender, just as if you watch Harden you know he's a terrible defender. I don't care what the stats say.

Forget this "highlight reel" of awful defense. Anyone can be made to look good or bad in anything with a highlight reel. Watch an actual game start to finish watching specifically for defense and you'll see how bad this guy is. I watched a Rockets vs. Clippers game and was captivated by how terrible the defense of the Rockets was in this game, and found myself watching full quarters worth of defense of Harden, Lin, and Parsons. Howard and Asik played their own part in refusing to hedge and went under on literally every screen, but the guards were especially horrid. Harden was the ring leader though and is one of the worst defenders in the league.

slashsnake
04-18-2014, 11:41 PM
He isn't good at defense, but luckily he isn't an interior defender where that really matters all the time. He averages what? 25 and 6? And his opponent puts up about 18 and 4. So when he is on the court you are getting 11 more points in a game through his matchup than his opponent.

Lets say you have a great defender. Avery Bradley for example. That is awesome what he does on D. But if he's scoring 14 and giving out one assist, and his tough D holds Harden to 17 and 5, he still lost that matchup badly even though he did quite well defensively.

A great defender without being good offensively CAN be as much of a liability. Of course they aren't on teams that use other great defenders. Thabo can play great D and the team won't suffer when he does nothing on offense. They can lose that matchup, Thabo makes it closer than it might have been with his D, and through other players matchups they will win the game.

Just like with Dwight and Asik and others, Harden doesn't have to play good D. He's winning his matchup easily most nights. Because of that they can give big minutes to guys like Beverly, Asik, and Garcia who struggle to outscore their man.

goingfor28
04-18-2014, 11:52 PM
Fanboys will do anything to take away from Hardens Greatness.. if there not complaining about his defense, then its about flopping, but no one ever mentions Chris Paul, Durant, Wade, and every other superstar floppier.. Harden is the only one guilty of this.. and then have the nerve to call him overrated when he averages 25/6/5.. That's why I can't take most of these psd'ers seriously

Paul
Griffin
Wade
Lebron
Etc have all gotten fair criticism about flops

mightybosstone
04-18-2014, 11:54 PM
The league average for 2013-2014 for 3P% is 36%. His is 36.6%. Average.

The league average for 2013-2014 FG% is 45.4%. His is 45.6%. Average.

I am right. You are wrong.

Lol... You realize that you JUST posted numbers that were above the league average, right? Also, they don't take into account the fact that he was injured for most of the early season and post All-Star break, he shot 47.1% from the floor and 41.9% from the 3-point line.

mightybosstone
04-18-2014, 11:56 PM
Exactly. He shoots such a high percentage bc half his misses are him flailing and falling yo get fouled, so the shot attempts don't count


Paul
Griffin
Wade
Lebron
Etc have all gotten fair criticism about flops

********. Nobody gets more criticism for it on PSD than Harden. And if you don't believe that, then you clearly don't post on the general NBA forum that often.

goingfor28
04-18-2014, 11:57 PM
********. Nobody gets more criticism for it on PSD than Harden. And if you don't believe that, then you clearly don't post on the general NBA forum that often.

And you said no other player ever gets it, that's ********

mightybosstone
04-19-2014, 12:02 AM
Let me just be very specific, so I am not misspoken.

Harden flat out blows at defense, and that isn't a hyperbole. The fact that his offensive game revolves around getting fouled, and throw in the fact he overplays the **** out of most of his fouls to the point it gets replayed for comedy, is annoying.
You just misspoke right there and you used hyperbole. You should have stopped typing at that point, because you totally contradicted yourself. I have proved MULTIPLE times in this thread that his offensive game does not revolve solely around getting foul calls and that flops do not make up a substantial portion of his offensive production. You have proven nothing. You speak in generalizations, you provide no evidence for your points and it's fairly obvious you watch very little of James Harden's basketball games to make a legitimate argument one way or the other.


Is he a solid shooter? Yes. Great? No. Is he a great post player? No.

He's like: (Step under Prime Wade) + (better shooter) - (worse finisher) - (post skill)....

....but instead of having great defense, he's one of the worst in the league on all levels.
You realize you just compared him to one of the arguably 20-25 best players in the history of the NBA, right? How is that fair? And at what point did ANYONE try to say that James Harden is as good as a prime Dwyane Wade? That make no sense. That's like if I criticized Lebron James and my main argument was that he wasn't as good as a prime Michael Jordan. It's a terrible argument, and you should quit while you're behind.

mightybosstone
04-19-2014, 12:03 AM
And you said no other player ever gets it, that's ********

False. I never said anything like that, nor would I. You were replying to a different poster.

goingfor28
04-19-2014, 12:10 AM
False. I never said anything like that, nor would I. You were replying to a different poster.

Correct, my bad

ricky recon
04-19-2014, 01:07 AM
Lol... You realize that you JUST posted numbers that were above the league average, right? Also, they don't take into account the fact that he was injured for most of the early season and post All-Star break, he shot 47.1% from the floor and 41.9% from the 3-point line.

You have to be joking.

If you think 36.6%3PT is above average when 36%3PT, or even more ridiculous 45.6FG% is above average when the league average is 45.4FG%, you do not understand relativity and lack the social awareness to accept facts for facts.

Out of 124 players in the NBA who qualify, Harden is ranked 67th in FG%. That is average.

Out of 151 players in the NBA who qualify, Harden is ranked 76th in 3PT%. That is average.

You are wrong.

Don't try arguing that the sky isn't blue, but rather sky blue, next.


You just misspoke right there and you used hyperbole. You should have stopped typing at that point, because you totally contradicted yourself. I have proved MULTIPLE times in this thread that his offensive game does not revolve solely around getting foul calls and that flops do not make up a substantial portion of his offensive production. You have proven nothing. You speak in generalizations, you provide no evidence for your points and it's fairly obvious you watch very little of James Harden's basketball games to make a legitimate argument one way or the other.

Out of the top 75 scorers in the NBA, James Harden makes the highest percentage of his points from the line.

That is called factual evidence.


You realize you just compared him to one of the arguably 20-25 best players in the history of the NBA, right? How is that fair? And at what point did ANYONE try to say that James Harden is as good as a prime Dwyane Wade? That make no sense. That's like if I criticized Lebron James and my main argument was that he wasn't as good as a prime Michael Jordan. It's a terrible argument, and you should quit while you're behind.

I compared his offense to a less impactful Wade who isn't the same finisher, and is much worse in the post.

I compared his defense to the opposite of Wade except worse, because it's so bad it is puzzling how someone who gets paid to play basketball could be so bad at defense and put so little effort in it. Calling it embarrassing would be a disservice to how terrible it actually is.

mightybosstone
04-19-2014, 01:46 AM
You have to be joking.

If you think 36.6%3PT is above average when 36%3PT, or even more ridiculous 45.6FG% is above average when the league average is 45.4FG%, you do not understand relativity and lack the social awareness to accept facts for facts.

Out of 124 players in the NBA who qualify, Harden is ranked 67th in FG%. That is average.

Out of 151 players in the NBA who qualify, Harden is ranked 76th in 3PT%. That is average.

You are wrong.
First off, you're wrong on the very basis of what you already wrote. If x is the average and Player A outperforms x, then Player A is above average at x. That's not even debatable. That's common sense, and you proved it already.

As for FG%, you're making an astounding mistake by lumping Harden together with every other player in the league, because the average wing shoots a substantially lower FG% than the average big man. Among SGs, Harden is 7th in FG%, which is clearly well above average for his position.

Then in terms of 3-point shooting, you're making another pretty significant mistake by assuming 3-point FG% alone is a barometer of a great 3-point shooter. Hollis Thompson qualified this season and shot 40.1%. He also took roughly one-third the amount of 3-point attempts that Harden did. Would you consider Thompson a better 3-point shooter, because I certainly wouldn't, because volume has to account for something.

Saying Harden isn't an efficient scorer because of FG% or isn't an above average 3-point shooter because of 3-point % is totally missing the obvious fact that his volume of shots is substantially larger than the average player. If Hollis Thompson took as many shots as Harden and in the same situations as Harden, he would not shoot 40.1% from the 3-point line.

Also, you're forgetting another clearly obvious fact, which is that Harden drives to the basket FAR MORE than the average NBA player and even more than the average NBA star. I'd be willing to bet that if you counted the number of offensive possessions in which every NBA player drove to the rim, Harden would probably be among the top 2-3 in that category behind only Durant and maybe Lebron.


Out of the top 75 scorers in the NBA, James Harden makes the highest percentage of his points from the line. That is called factual evidence.
And as I pointed out in the above paragraph, Harden also drives to the lane far more than most NBA players. If you are willing to drive to the rim a lot, you're going to draw a lot of contact. The man excels at weaving through traffic and using that Euro step to get to the rim. Instead of celebrating how good he is at it, you're criticizing him and suggesting he's getting to the line too often. In today's era of hyperefficient athletes and advanced metrics, there is no such thing as getting to the line "too often."

But that's not even what should be on trial here. What you were originally suggesting was that Harden flops too much, not that too much of his offensive production comes from the free throw line. Those are two completely different arguments. I'm not asking you to tell me that the guy gets to the line a lot. Anybody with half a brain could have figured that out. I'm asking you to prove that his hyperefficient offensive game is a direct result of flopping, and you have proven exactly nothing.


I compared his offense to a less impactful Wade who isn't the same finisher, and is much worse in the post.
And a far superior perimeter shooter.


I compared his defense to the opposite of Wade except worse, because it's so bad it is puzzling how someone who gets paid to play basketball could be so bad at defense and put so little effort in it. Calling it embarrassing would be a disservice to how terrible it actually is.
No. Calling it embarrassing is a complete misunderstanding of what the word "embarrassing" means. Do you think Harden's embarrassed that some NBA fans on an Internets sports forum thinks his defense sucks or that he makes a few defensive mistakes every game? Hell no. The man makes a max contract for one of the six best basketball teams in the world, he regularly carries that team on his back with his offensive game and he's become an incredibly rich man with his skills and his endorsement deals.

James Harden is not embarrassed. Rockets fans are not embarrassed. And as long as he continues to lead the Rockets to wins, neither he, the team or its fans are going to be embarrassed.

0nekhmer
04-19-2014, 01:57 AM
********. Nobody gets more criticism for it on PSD than Harden. And if you don't believe that, then you clearly don't post on the general NBA forum that often.

its because Harden won ***** of the year with this flop

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EOYSzVLQyc

until someone out flops him, that title remains his. Also, having that diva Dwight Howard next to you doesn't help :p

other than that, he's an elite offensive player, similar to Carmelo Anthony's status

mightybosstone
04-19-2014, 02:05 AM
its because Harden won ***** of the year with this flop

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EOYSzVLQyc

until someone out flops him, that title remains his.
It's one ****ing play in an 82 game season. One regular season play does not justify an entire season of basketball.


Also, having that diva Dwight Howard next to you doesn't help :p
What does that have to do with anything? It's completely off topic.


other than that, he's an elite offensive player, similar to Carmelo Anthony's status
He's a far more efficient scorer than Melo and a far superior playmaker.

torocan
04-19-2014, 03:14 AM
Also, you're forgetting another clearly obvious fact, which is that Harden drives to the basket FAR MORE than the average NBA player and even more than the average NBA star. I'd be willing to bet that if you counted the number of offensive possessions in which every NBA player drove to the rim, Harden would probably be among the top 2-3 in that category behind only Durant and maybe Lebron.

You should probably be glad that you didn't bet. Your perception has no connection to reality.

Not to nit pick, but that data is already readily available and fully tracked by SportsVu and Harden is not number 2 or 3. He's not even in the top 20 in total drives. Though you are half right in that he's behind Lebron... and Tony Wroten, and John Wall, and Jameer Nelson. Durant actually has 12 fewer drives over the season (right behind Harden).

http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingDrives.html?pageNo=1&rowsPerPage=50&sortField=DVS_TOT&sortOrder=DES

And technically, Harden isn't even #1 on the Rockets in terms of total drives per game. That would be Jeremy Lin.

James Harden - Total drives - 482 (#25 in the NBA)
Jeremy Lin - Total drives - 520 (#16 in the NBA)

He's also #41 in team points per drive per 48 minutes (#2 on the Rockets behind Lin). And despite playing 37 minutes per game he is also #2 in drives per game on the Rockets (behind Lin).

That said, he is #1 in terms of drawing fouls per game.

Make of that what you will.

slashsnake
04-19-2014, 03:58 AM
You should probably be glad that you didn't bet. Your perception has no connection to reality.

Not to nit pick, but that data is already readily available and fully tracked by SportsVu and Harden is not number 2 or 3. He's not even in the top 20 in total drives. Though you are half right in that he's behind Lebron... and Tony Wroten, and John Wall, and Jameer Nelson. Durant actually has 12 fewer drives over the season (right behind Harden).

http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingDrives.html?pageNo=1&rowsPerPage=50&sortField=DVS_TOT&sortOrder=DES

And technically, Harden isn't even #1 on the Rockets in terms of total drives per game. That would be Jeremy Lin.

James Harden - Total drives - 482 (#25 in the NBA)
Jeremy Lin - Total drives - 520 (#16 in the NBA)

He's also #41 in team points per drive per 48 minutes (#2 on the Rockets behind Lin). And despite playing 37 minutes per game he is also #2 in drives per game on the Rockets (behind Lin).

That said, he is #1 in terms of drawing fouls per game.

Make of that what you will.

Interesting stat. So if he takes it to the hoop on a fast break and gets fouled or scores that doesn't count as a drive. If he starts 19 feet from the hoop and scores a layup, that isn't a drive, but if he starts 20 feet from the hoop and takes a 9 foot pull up jumper, that is one.

It is interesting that Lin has 520 drives, and 359 shot attempts inside of 16 feet of the rim, while Harden has just 482 drives and 572 shot attempts inside of 16 feet. Harden has nearly 100 more shot attempts inside 8 feet than Lin does inside 16..

It is interesting to see Stephen Curry in there for example in there. Now it would take you about 2 seconds of watching them this year to see that Curry is not even close to the same level of attacking the basket like Harden does. But just 19 fewer drives in a year? Then you look at their shot charts and see that Curry shoots 13% of his shots inside 3 foot of the rim and Harden shoots 27% of his there.

So sure, Harden doesn't drive by that standard. What he does do according to your stats is take it to the rim a LOT more often. I think you are proving your point right there. Harden is MUCH more aggressive with his drives. He isn't driving into that "inside 10 feet" as much as everyone, but he is the one trying to get to the rim more than all of them. And guess what. A big isn't going to foul the fadeaway. He's going to foul the guy attacking the rim.

He takes 1 free throw per 36 more than Westbrook, Brook Lopez, and DeRozan, and is right there with Love and Griffin, and about 1 a game behind Dwight, Durant, and Cousins. He isn't getting to the line at some crazy insane pace like Corey Maggette was a few years back for Golden State. Heck, a few years ago Kevin Martin was getting to the line more often than Harden has been this year.

BenFrank
04-19-2014, 04:04 AM
Paul
Griffin
Wade
Lebron
Etc have all gotten fair criticism about flops

Well that depends on what u consider fair... I know Harden is getting his fair share! A high % of people criticize Harden at least 2 times more than the guys u mentioned, and that's combined


********. Nobody gets more criticism for it on PSD than Harden. And if you don't believe that, then you clearly don't post on the general NBA forum that often.

+1


And you said no other player ever gets it, that's ********

Maybe that's because if they do get it, it's not noticable.. meanwhile speaking of Harden, everyone seems to want to chime in, like it's the popular thing to do.. and I notice a handful of Rockets fan stick up for him, but most Rockets fans don't bother with psd posters non sense, but the amount of Hate this guys gets is just getting annoying.. u don't see Rockets fan making threads constantly on your Superstar *if u have one* weaknesses.. but ***** about to hit the fan

ThuglifeJ
04-19-2014, 04:26 AM
:facepalm: Okay, so let's assume 25% of every foul Harden draws on a shot attempt is a flop. That seems like more than fair. Considering he shoots about 9 FTA per game and one of those trips to the line could feasibly be a 3-pointer, we'll just take away two of his free throw attempts and we'll add 1 FGA per game to counter that. He'd STILL shoot about 43% from the floor. And while I can't calculate TS%, I'm guessing he'd still be hovering around a 58-60% TS%, which is still insanely efficient.

So, again, your arguments are clearly flawed. The few successful flops which lead to Harden making free throws do not account for enough of his production to make a substantial difference. You can rip on the guy all you want to, but the numbers bear out the fact that he's a phenomenal offensive player. I'd like to see you provide one shred of evidence that suggests he's only a great offensive player because he draws fouls on flops.

Fanboys will do anything to take away from Hardens Greatness.. if there not complaining about his defense, then its about flopping, but no one ever mentions Chris Paul, Durant, Wade, and every other superstar floppier.. Harden is the only one guilty of this.. and then have the nerve to call him overrated when he averages 25/6/5.. That's why I can't take most of these psd'ers seriously

Lol ppl rip on them all the time for flopping.. Harden is the worst we've ever seen though

Lol 'greatness'

FOBolous
04-19-2014, 04:34 AM
Exactly. He shoots such a high percentage bc half his misses are him flailing and falling yo get fouled, so the shot attempts don't count

yup. His flailing certainly helped his fg% and his 3p%

slashsnake
04-19-2014, 05:35 AM
Lol ppl rip on them all the time for flopping.. Harden is the worst we've ever seen though

Lol 'greatness'

It is hard to get worse than this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SOCNxCzb1I

And harden isn't the worst unless this is your first year watching the NBA. Ginobili? Divac? Horry? Laimbeer. Varejao is the Jordan of flopping on D. Reggie Miller?

I think the best flop ever, and its on youtube somewhere was when Varejao set a pick and roll on Derek Fisher (another great flopper). Fish was trying to push him off as Varejao headed down to get in position to rebound. Varejao somehow gets launched by Fisher, then Fish falls to the ground himself...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Hs06oyMT_E

There it is.. found it. That is two masters at work. Baron Davis on Mehmet Okur getting killed somehow on an inbounds is awesome too.

Harden has a long ways to go to be one of the best ever. I don't see him flopping on screens, flopping on D, flopping walking down the court when someone is close to him like some of the greats.

But lets not do the internet "this is a new topic so its the biggest thing in the history of the world" bit with Harden flopping.

torocan
04-19-2014, 07:47 AM
It is interesting to see Stephen Curry in there for example in there. Now it would take you about 2 seconds of watching them this year to see that Curry is not even close to the same level of attacking the basket like Harden does. But just 19 fewer drives in a year? Then you look at their shot charts and see that Curry shoots 13% of his shots inside 3 foot of the rim and Harden shoots 27% of his there.

One thing to keep in mind is the court time disparity. played disparity.

Harden has played 73 games averaging 38.3mpg (6.6 dpg). Lin has played 71 games averaging 31.2mpg (7.1 dpg). Curry has played 77 games averaging 36.7mpg (6.0 dpg).

So you can't necessarily just look at pure drive totals.

Also, we shouldn't confuse aggression in getting to the basket with aggression in terms of initiating a drive. If you drive and then stop and pop (like Curry) then in one way that's almost as aggressive as Harden driving to get to the rim, though it's obviously less aggressive in terms of drawing fouls in that if you're stopping and popping you're most likely losing your defender (and the opportunity to draw a foul).

This is borne out in the pull up shooting numbers, where Curry is #1 in the NBA in pull up FGA per game (10.3).

http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingPullUp.html?pageNo=1&rowsPerPage=25&sortField=FGA&sortOrder=DES

Notice that he not only leads that category, but by a MASSIVE amount. The next closest is at 8.9 pull up FGA per game.

So does Curry drive towards the rim? Sure. Does he try to GET to the rim very often while seeking contact? Rarely.

mightybosstone
04-19-2014, 10:32 AM
You should probably be glad that you didn't bet. Your perception has no connection to reality.

Not to nit pick, but that data is already readily available and fully tracked by SportsVu and Harden is not number 2 or 3. He's not even in the top 20 in total drives. Though you are half right in that he's behind Lebron... and Tony Wroten, and John Wall, and Jameer Nelson. Durant actually has 12 fewer drives over the season (right behind Harden).

http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingDrives.html?pageNo=1&rowsPerPage=50&sortField=DVS_TOT&sortOrder=DES

And technically, Harden isn't even #1 on the Rockets in terms of total drives per game. That would be Jeremy Lin.

James Harden - Total drives - 482 (#25 in the NBA)
Jeremy Lin - Total drives - 520 (#16 in the NBA)

He's also #41 in team points per drive per 48 minutes (#2 on the Rockets behind Lin). And despite playing 37 minutes per game he is also #2 in drives per game on the Rockets (behind Lin).

That said, he is #1 in terms of drawing fouls per game.

Make of that what you will.

One thing I'd like to point out is that this measures when a player drives within 10 feet of the rim. 10 feet. That's a pretty long distance to really consider it a "drive." I'd much rather see a statistic that measures when a player drives within three feet of the rim. To me, that would be a far better representation of what I'm trying to prove. So many players at the top of this list are point guards, which makes sense, because their job is to dribble penetrate to create space and kick out to somebody else. But how many of those drives actually result in a shot attempt or fouls drawn by shot attempts?

Those are the two statistics I want to see. Find me those numbers and this will be a more legitimate debate.

mightybosstone
04-19-2014, 10:40 AM
Also, we shouldn't confuse aggression in getting to the basket with aggression in terms of initiating a drive. If you drive and then stop and pop (like Curry) then in one way that's almost as aggressive as Harden driving to get to the rim, though it's obviously less aggressive in terms of drawing fouls in that if you're stopping and popping you're most likely losing your defender (and the opportunity to draw a foul).

This is borne out in the pull up shooting numbers, where Curry is #1 in the NBA in pull up FGA per game (10.3).

http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingPullUp.html?pageNo=1&rowsPerPage=25&sortField=FGA&sortOrder=DES

Notice that he not only leads that category, but by a MASSIVE amount. The next closest is at 8.9 pull up FGA per game.

So does Curry drive towards the rim? Sure. Does he try to GET to the rim very often while seeking contact? Rarely.
Except those statistics are measuring pull ups outside of 10 feet, which you're not considering. Unless a player drives to within feet and takes a step back outside of 10 feet, those pull ups you're suggesting are not being considered within this data. And I doubt that makes up a huge portion of the numbers we're seeing here.

Although I wish we could see that data on pull ups within 10 feet versus attempts within three feet. I'm sure we'd see Curry toward the top of one list and Harden toward the top of the other, which is exactly the point I'm trying to make. You're not drawing many fouls on a pull up jumper from 8 feet. You are going to draw fouls on drives to the rim.

torocan
04-19-2014, 10:47 AM
One thing I'd like to point out is that this measures when a player drives within 10 feet of the rim. 10 feet. That's a pretty long distance to really consider it a "drive." I'd much rather see a statistic that measures when a player drives within three feet of the rim. To me, that would be a far better representation of what I'm trying to prove. So many players at the top of this list are point guards, which makes sense, because their job is to dribble penetrate to create space and kick out to somebody else. But how many of those drives actually result in a shot attempt or fouls drawn by shot attempts?

Those are the two statistics I want to see. Find me those numbers and this will be a more legitimate debate.

Using 3 feet is of marginal value in my view since a lot of times the paint closes and you're forced into a mid range jumper. Are you really going to discount drives where Harden takes a floater or pull up jumper from 5, 7 or 8 feet? It's still a drive.

As for assists and FTA's, those two statistics can mostly be inferred from the list.

Player PPG from drives and Team PPG from drives (player scores + team mate scores). Take the player PPG off drives from Team PPG from scores and you get the points from assists+FT's.

For example..

Harden generates 8.5 Team PPG from drives. He generates 5.4 PPG for himself. So he's generated 3.1 PPG for the team. Assuming TS% of 50%, that would work out to 6 points, or 2-3 shots per game from drives. The rest of his assists/FT's would be through normal passing.

Not a perfect measure by any means, but it would still give an approximate idea.

Either way, the point still stands. Harden is NOT in the top 2-3 in the entire NBA no matter how you slice and dice the numbers.

c.c.
04-19-2014, 10:54 AM
:eyebrow:

mightybosstone
04-19-2014, 11:00 AM
Using 3 feet is of marginal value in my view since a lot of times the paint closes and you're forced into a mid range jumper. Are you really going to discount drives where Harden takes a floater or pull up jumper from 5, 7 or 8 feet? It's still a drive.
Yes, I am. Because as someone who watches a ton of James Harden games, I know that the guy takes very few shots from that range and pretty much loathes mid range jump shots. Look at his shot distribution and you'll see what i'm talking about:

http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.html?PlayerID=201935&display-mode=distribution


As for assists and FTA's, those two statistics can mostly be inferred from the list.

Player PPG from drives and Team PPG from drives (player scores + team mate scores). Take the player PPG off drives from Team PPG from scores and you get the points from assists+FT's.

For example..

Harden generates 8.5 Team PPG from drives. He generates 5.4 PPG for himself. So he's generated 3.1 PPG for the team. Assuming TS% of 50%, that would work out to 6 points, or 2-3 shots per game from drives. The rest of his assists/FT's would be through normal passing.

Not a perfect measure by any means, but it would still give an approximate idea.
But again, it doesn't take into account the difference between a pull jumper or a floater within 10 feet and a layup attempt within three feet, which is a far more high percentage shot. To me, that's a very relevant piece of the data that we're missing. Also, I actually don't think we can assume FTs are included in that data. I don't see it mentioned anywhere, so that's not really fair to assume.


Either way, the point still stands. Harden is NOT in the top 2-3 in the entire NBA no matter how you slice and dice the numbers.
I don't necessarily think that's true. Because as I've already stated, I'm not interested in drives that result in assists, pull up jumpers or the classic Jeremy Lin drive where he dribbles all the way to the basket, realizes he has no chance at a layup and then drives under the basket down the baseline and out to the perimeter again. I want drives that result in FGA within 3-4 feet of the basket.

I'll admit that seeing this set of statistical data has been very interesting, and I'm glad to know it's available. But it doesn't really help us much in proving or disproving my point.

torocan
04-19-2014, 12:25 PM
Yes, I am. Because as someone who watches a ton of James Harden games, I know that the guy takes very few shots from that range and pretty much loathes mid range jump shots. Look at his shot distribution and you'll see what i'm talking about:

http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart.html?PlayerID=201935&display-mode=distribution

You might want to have those eyes checked.

James Harden shot distribution by distance....

0-3 27.4%
3-10 12.2%
10-16 7.7%
16-3pt 12.4%
3pt 40.1%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hardeja01.html

So, out of the 59.9% of shots that Harden takes inside the arc, 39.6% come from within 10 feet, of which close to a third of those fall within the 3-10 foot range.

Given that Harden shoots 15.6 FGA/game, of the shots that actually go up you're looking at 1.9 FGA/gm fall in the 3-10 foot range out of 6.1 FGA/gm within 10 feet. That translates to 147/477 FGA inside 10 feet, or 147/1205 total FGA over the season. That's hardly "inconsequential".

As for your "mid range" shot assertion, you're still looking at 20.2% in the 3-3pt range, or 1/5 shots. Yes, not frequent but he certainly does take them.


But again, it doesn't take into account the difference between a pull jumper or a floater within 10 feet and a layup attempt within three feet, which is a far more high percentage shot. To me, that's a very relevant piece of the data that we're missing. Also, I actually don't think we can assume FTs are included in that data. I don't see it mentioned anywhere, so that's not really fair to assume.

I have no idea why you would want to distinguish between a "lay up" and a "pull up" jumper within 3 feet. They're both finishes inside 3 feet and the bulk of the work is done through the drive. And Harden finishes in all 3 ways, short jumper/floaters, dunks and lay ups. So I'm not sure what you're trying to find here...


I don't necessarily think that's true. Because as I've already stated, I'm not interested in drives that result in assists, pull up jumpers or the classic Jeremy Lin drive where he dribbles all the way to the basket, realizes he has no chance at a layup and then drives under the basket down the baseline and out to the perimeter again. I want drives that result in FGA within 3-4 feet of the basket.

If you want to do that just extract his actual FGA's at the rim at 0-3 feet, then use an estimate of %ast from his base 2pt percentage. You would have to pull the data from a separate source of his actual %ast if you want to find the exact numbers for 0-3 feet.


I'll admit that seeing this set of statistical data has been very interesting, and I'm glad to know it's available. But it doesn't really help us much in proving or disproving my point.

And what point is that? That Harden is NOT the #1 or #2 in terms of points scored at the rim off drives?

Here's a couple eyeball numbers that pretty much point towards that being incorrect. I could crunch it, but it's doubtful it would improve your case. How about I'll just pull up the top 5 in the NBA from SportsVu in total drives this season and you can try to argue how you could possibly argue that Harden is top 3 in drives to the rim...

SportsVu sorted by total number of drives - http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingDrives.html?pageNo=1&rowsPerPage=25&sortField=DVS_TOT&sortOrder=DES

Percent of FGA taken from 0-3 feet (Basketball reference)

Monta Ellis - 31.7% (827 drives) - http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/e/ellismo01.html
Jeff Teague - 30.8% (771 drives) - http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/teaguje01.html
Tyreke Evans - 56.5% (730 drives) - http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/e/evansty01.html
Goran Dragic - 34.9% (712 drives) - http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/dragigo01.html
Tony Parker - 32.9% (697 drives) - http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/parketo01.html

James Harden - 27.4% (482 drives) - http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hardeja01.html

My point still stands. Harden is no way top 2 or 3. Not even top 5. And if you ran down the list there's a good chance he wouldn't even make the top 10 in shots at the rim off drives.

Verbal Christ
04-19-2014, 01:47 PM
Since the acquisition of Howard, the Rockets have become the whipping boys of the NBA. Laker fans who felt jilted. NY fans who are irrelevant. Sadly those lemmings who follow along just because.

Harden doesnt play good defense. WOW! What a revelation. Yet in this same thread some are actually saying that Durant does? Ridiculously uneducated and full of spite. Keep hating the Rockets. I much rather be relevant and hated than to be the 42-42 team that everyone liked, but posed no threat.

What the hell happened to this site? Full of ads, and full of clowns. Used to be a good place for intellectual sports convo.

I'll leave you analysts with this little tidbit to nibble on: http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/post/_/id/88049/picking-the-most-clutch-in-nba-playoffs

Hi Hater, Bye Hater! :)

sunsfan88
04-19-2014, 03:35 PM
Yeah, that's why he's still overrated, true superstars are two way players

So Steve Nash, Carmelo Anthony, Blake Gfiffin, Zack Randolph and Kyrie Irving aren't superstars?

mightybosstone
04-19-2014, 08:12 PM
You might want to have those eyes checked.

James Harden shot distribution by distance....

0-3 27.4%
3-10 12.2%
10-16 7.7%
16-3pt 12.4%
3pt 40.1%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hardeja01.html

So, out of the 59.9% of shots that Harden takes inside the arc, 39.6% come from within 10 feet, of which close to a third of those fall within the 3-10 foot range.

Given that Harden shoots 15.6 FGA/game, of the shots that actually go up you're looking at 1.9 FGA/gm fall in the 3-10 foot range out of 6.1 FGA/gm within 10 feet. That translates to 147/477 FGA inside 10 feet, or 147/1205 total FGA over the season. That's hardly "inconsequential".
I don't quite get your point here. Of the 39.6% of shots within 10 feet, more than two-thirds come within the three foot range. That's exactly the point I'm trying to make. Harden is more than twice as likely to take it to the rim than he is to take a shot in that 3-10 foot range. And while it's not inconsequential, it's clearly obvious that Harden is far more likely to go for a high percentage layup than to take a short, pull up jumper. So what point are you trying to make exactly?


As for your "mid range" shot assertion, you're still looking at 20.2% in the 3-3pt range, or 1/5 shots. Yes, not frequent but he certainly does take them.
Again, you're totally missing the point. The guy's a scorer. If he gets an open look or if he's in a position where he can get a good look from an unusual spot on the floor, he's going to take it. But the vast majority of his shots (67&) come either outside the 3-point line or within 3 feet. Doe he shoot from other players on the floor? Yeah. Of course he does. But he shoots an abnormal majority of his shots within those two areas on the floor.


I have no idea why you would want to distinguish between a "lay up" and a "pull up" jumper within 3 feet. They're both finishes inside 3 feet and the bulk of the work is done through the drive. And Harden finishes in all 3 ways, short jumper/floaters, dunks and lay ups. So I'm not sure what you're trying to find here...
What the hell are you talking about? I don't want to distinguish between layups and jumpers within three feet. I want to distinguish between shots from 0-3 feet and shots from 3-10 feet. And as we've already established, harden shoots more than twice as many shots from 0-3 feet as he does from 3-10 feet. But I want to see what those numbers look like in driving situations.


If you want to do that just extract his actual FGA's at the rim at 0-3 feet, then use an estimate of %ast from his base 2pt percentage. You would have to pull the data from a separate source of his actual %ast if you want to find the exact numbers for 0-3 feet.
I fail to see how you could use those numbers provided to determine an ast%.


And what point is that? That Harden is NOT the #1 or #2 in terms of points scored at the rim off drives?
Not at all. My point is that flops do not generate a substantial enough part of Harden's offense to make a difference and that the amount of fouls he draws is appropriate for a player who attacks the rim as much as he does.

Here's a couple eyeball numbers that pretty much point towards that being incorrect. I could crunch it, but it's doubtful it would improve your case. How about I'll just pull up the top 5 in the NBA from SportsVu in total drives this season and you can try to argue how you could possibly argue that Harden is top 3 in drives to the rim...


SportsVu sorted by total number of drives - http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingDrives.html?pageNo=1&rowsPerPage=25&sortField=DVS_TOT&sortOrder=DES

Percent of FGA taken from 0-3 feet (Basketball reference)

Monta Ellis - 31.7% (827 drives) - http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/e/ellismo01.html
Jeff Teague - 30.8% (771 drives) - http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/teaguje01.html
Tyreke Evans - 56.5% (730 drives) - http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/e/evansty01.html
Goran Dragic - 34.9% (712 drives) - http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/dragigo01.html
Tony Parker - 32.9% (697 drives) - http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/parketo01.html

James Harden - 27.4% (482 drives) - http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hardeja01.html

My point still stands. Harden is no way top 2 or 3. Not even top 5. And if you ran down the list there's a good chance he wouldn't even make the top 10 in shots at the rim off drives.

But this is in no way an apples to apples comparison. Basketball reference isn't solely measuring shots on drives within 0-3 feet, it's measuring FGA in total within that range. Also, it doesn't take into consideration the number of attempts at the rim on drives that result in fouls drawn, which is obviously a huge piece to this puzzle.

Bottom line, we can go back and forth using the same barometers to make the same arguments, but there is no statistical data I know of that measures what I'm trying to prove or what you're trying to disprove. Then again, I think you're trying to prove something entirely different than I am. I'm focused on the myth that Harden gets a disproportionate amount of points from flopping. You're trying to prove that Harden doesn't drive to the rim as much as I claim.

slashsnake
04-19-2014, 09:52 PM
One thing to keep in mind is the court time disparity. played disparity.

Harden has played 73 games averaging 38.3mpg (6.6 dpg). Lin has played 71 games averaging 31.2mpg (7.1 dpg). Curry has played 77 games averaging 36.7mpg (6.0 dpg).

So you can't necessarily just look at pure drive totals.

Also, we shouldn't confuse aggression in getting to the basket with aggression in terms of initiating a drive. If you drive and then stop and pop (like Curry) then in one way that's almost as aggressive as Harden driving to get to the rim, though it's obviously less aggressive in terms of drawing fouls in that if you're stopping and popping you're most likely losing your defender (and the opportunity to draw a foul).

This is borne out in the pull up shooting numbers, where Curry is #1 in the NBA in pull up FGA per game (10.3).

http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingPullUp.html?pageNo=1&rowsPerPage=25&sortField=FGA&sortOrder=DES

Notice that he not only leads that category, but by a MASSIVE amount. The next closest is at 8.9 pull up FGA per game.

So does Curry drive towards the rim? Sure. Does he try to GET to the rim very often while seeking contact? Rarely.

Exactly my point. You drive and pop, you aren't going to draw a foul. You drive to finish with a layup, you are. Which is why curry may have more drives, even though Harden has double the drives to the rim.

ricky recon
04-19-2014, 10:52 PM
First off, you're wrong on the very basis of what you already wrote. If x is the average and Player A outperforms x, then Player A is above average at x. That's not even debatable. That's common sense, and you proved it already.

As for FG%, you're making an astounding mistake by lumping Harden together with every other player in the league, because the average wing shoots a substantially lower FG% than the average big man. Among SGs, Harden is 7th in FG%, which is clearly well above average for his position.

Then in terms of 3-point shooting, you're making another pretty significant mistake by assuming 3-point FG% alone is a barometer of a great 3-point shooter. Hollis Thompson qualified this season and shot 40.1%. He also took roughly one-third the amount of 3-point attempts that Harden did. Would you consider Thompson a better 3-point shooter, because I certainly wouldn't, because volume has to account for something.

Saying Harden isn't an efficient scorer because of FG% or isn't an above average 3-point shooter because of 3-point % is totally missing the obvious fact that his volume of shots is substantially larger than the average player. If Hollis Thompson took as many shots as Harden and in the same situations as Harden, he would not shoot 40.1% from the 3-point line.

Also, you're forgetting another clearly obvious fact, which is that Harden drives to the basket FAR MORE than the average NBA player and even more than the average NBA star. I'd be willing to bet that if you counted the number of offensive possessions in which every NBA player drove to the rim, Harden would probably be among the top 2-3 in that category behind only Durant and maybe Lebron.


And as I pointed out in the above paragraph, Harden also drives to the lane far more than most NBA players. If you are willing to drive to the rim a lot, you're going to draw a lot of contact. The man excels at weaving through traffic and using that Euro step to get to the rim. Instead of celebrating how good he is at it, you're criticizing him and suggesting he's getting to the line too often. In today's era of hyperefficient athletes and advanced metrics, there is no such thing as getting to the line "too often."

But that's not even what should be on trial here. What you were originally suggesting was that Harden flops too much, not that too much of his offensive production comes from the free throw line. Those are two completely different arguments. I'm not asking you to tell me that the guy gets to the line a lot. Anybody with half a brain could have figured that out. I'm asking you to prove that his hyperefficient offensive game is a direct result of flopping, and you have proven exactly nothing.


And a far superior perimeter shooter.


No. Calling it embarrassing is a complete misunderstanding of what the word "embarrassing" means. Do you think Harden's embarrassed that some NBA fans on an Internets sports forum thinks his defense sucks or that he makes a few defensive mistakes every game? Hell no. The man makes a max contract for one of the six best basketball teams in the world, he regularly carries that team on his back with his offensive game and he's become an incredibly rich man with his skills and his endorsement deals.

James Harden is not embarrassed. Rockets fans are not embarrassed. And as long as he continues to lead the Rockets to wins, neither he, the team or its fans are going to be embarrassed.

You are being so delusional that you can not see straight.

If you cannot see that a 36.6 3PT% is average when the league average is 36%... or better yet, out of 151 players in the league who qualify, he's 76th (LESS THAN THE MEDIAN), you are either ignorant on the laws of averages or you have this erroneous idea in your head about how phenomenal James Harden and the Rockets are that no statistic or reasonable logic could make you see that he is an average three point shooter.

Above average would imply that out of 151 qualified guys he would be somewhere in the 1-45 range or 70th percentile (common metric for above average).

He is 76th out of 151. That is 49.67th percentile. Average. There is literally nobody more average than him. The numbers stare you in the eye, yet you don't really care. That's an interesting way to argue.

flea
04-19-2014, 10:59 PM
Same excuses for Harden's piss-poor defense we always see on PSD. He lacks lateral quickness is the first, and of course it isn't true. He's not a top athlete in the NBA for sure but he's got plenty of footspeed when it might mean points at the other end. Lateral quickness isn't a necessity for good or even passable defense anyway. And then there's my favorite cop-out - that he's a "good post defender." Yeah I guess all those hours studying Dream's moves and countermoves are the reason he looks completely lost after a few screens.

slashsnake
04-19-2014, 11:12 PM
Same excuses for Harden's piss-poor defense we always see on PSD. He lacks lateral quickness is the first, and of course it isn't true. He's not a top athlete in the NBA for sure but he's got plenty of footspeed when it might mean points at the other end. Lateral quickness isn't a necessity for good or even passable defense anyway. And then there's my favorite cop-out - that he's a "good post defender." Yeah I guess all those hours studying Dream's moves and countermoves are the reason he looks completely lost after a few screens.


I agree 100% with you. He is bad on defense. and you see the same excuses his defenders make on that side of the ball used by those trying to belittle the great offensive player he is. I hate the cop out that he's a good team defender just as much as "flailing his arms is why he's a good offensive player. Dead on on your view there.

Its like really? That is the thought? This guy is bad on D, bad on offense and leading a team to the #4 seed in the west? Nice try, but that's a pretty bad conspiracy theory.

ThuglifeJ
04-20-2014, 10:37 PM
Hardens 1-7 with no free throws. Lol I can only imagine that his flail attempts arent working now that its the playoffs.

Typical