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View Full Version : Rick Carlisle says Dirk is top 12 of all-time!



Jasper6
04-11-2014, 03:47 PM
HELL NO!!!!

http://www.balldontstop.com/rick-carlisle-says-dirk-nowitzki-top-12-time/

Ebbs
04-11-2014, 03:48 PM
Yea there's an argument woooooo

Avenged
04-11-2014, 03:52 PM
Hmm. I can see top 15, maybe.

Jasper6
04-11-2014, 03:59 PM
top 20 yes not 12

abe_froman
04-11-2014, 04:03 PM
why hell no? i personally dont have him top 12,but its not that outrageous,he's close enough to have an argument for it

Kushed
04-11-2014, 04:13 PM
Top 12 European players yeah

ManRam
04-11-2014, 04:16 PM
I mean, I would expect his own coach to say something like this. It's a slight reach, but it's far from pure blasphemy.

The guy had one of the most impressive Finals runs in a very long time. He's aging very well. He's a 13x All Star and perhaps counting. An MVP and a Finals MVP. He's got a lot of accolades. He's top 10 all time in points (NBA only). Top 20 all time in PER, 8th all time in offensive win shares, 9th in total win shares and so on.

He's got a good mix of stats and accolades. I have him firmly in my top-20, I haven't mad a list in a while to be more specific, but he's up there. Add a few more years for longevity purposes and Carlisle shouldn't be looking insane to anyone for this comment.

And he's been quite influential too. The guy is a 7 foot German. Stretch PFs are a mainstay in today's NBA and he was on the forefront of that movement. He was in some ways a pioneer for what has become the desired norm in the NBA from that position. He was something we had never really seen before...at least not at his level, and I don't think enough attention was given to that at the time.

nickdymez
04-11-2014, 04:21 PM
There is an argument for it. Nothing far fetched about his statement

P&GRealist
04-11-2014, 04:27 PM
Among active NBA players, he is top 4 with Kobe, Duncan, and LeBron. Those 3 I mentioned are in the top 10. Dirk I would say is top 15, top 20 at worst.

P&GRealist
04-11-2014, 04:28 PM
And his argument is that Dirk is 1 of only 12 players to win a title, league MVP and finals MVP

naps
04-11-2014, 04:52 PM
Well, he backed up his statement. He specifically mentioned his criteria. I have no problem with it. Dirk is more like top 20 or 22 in my book.

chi-townlove1
04-11-2014, 05:07 PM
Yeah top 25 is more like it for me. He's not even better than Duncan and Duncan is about top 15 for me.

Hawkeye15
04-11-2014, 05:12 PM
And his argument is that Dirk is 1 of only 12 players to win a title, league MVP and finals MVP

right. This is where Rick is coming from, and I have no problem with it. Dirk certainly will end up a top 15-20 player ever when all is said and done, but he isn't top 12 to me personally. But I am not gonna kill a guy for putting him in his top 12.

Hawkeye15
04-11-2014, 05:12 PM
Yeah top 25 is more like it for me. He's not even better than Duncan and Duncan is about top 15 for me.

I don't think you can make a case for Duncan being lower than 10th really. He is top 6-8 to me.

chi-townlove1
04-11-2014, 05:14 PM
Yeah top 25 is more like it for me. He's not even better than Duncan and Duncan is about top 15 for me.

I don't think you can make a case for Duncan being lower than 10th really. He is top 6-8 to me.

Hmm interesting, even though we've had this debate a billion times on psd lol but yeah your definitely entitled to that and there's no way I can say your wrong. I still think I can put 10-12 players ahead of Duncan but he's definitely up there.

nickdymez
04-11-2014, 05:38 PM
Among active NBA players, he is top 4 with Kobe, Duncan, and LeBron. Those 3 I mentioned are in the top 10. Dirk I would say is top 15, top 20 at worst.

You're not gonna mention Garnett?

Hawkeye15
04-11-2014, 05:39 PM
You're not gonna mention Garnett?

exactly. I still think KG finishes ahead of Dirk all time, simply due to being so much better on the other end.

leprechaun5
04-11-2014, 06:17 PM
TD and KG are 1 and 2 PF all time and Dirk ain't gonna change that .

Corey
04-11-2014, 06:42 PM
I could easily see an argument for Dirk being 11-15

Kashmir13579
04-11-2014, 06:54 PM
You're not gonna mention Garnett?

exactly. I still think KG finishes ahead of Dirk all time, simply due to being so much better on the other end. longevity though... PRIME longevity..

slashsnake
04-11-2014, 07:03 PM
I think Dirk sticking it out with his team, not bolting for a big name market to join forces to win a championship says something.

Shammyguy3
04-11-2014, 07:07 PM
god Dirk is so hard for me to judge because he's always been one of my favorite players. Players that I'd definitely take ahead of him are:

Jordan, Hakeem, Kareem, Wilt, Shaq
Magic, Bird, Duncan, Russell, Kobe, Lebron

that's 11 right there. Then you have the next tier of guys: Moses Malone, Kevin Garnett, Charles Barkely, Oscar Robertson, and so forth. So I think top-20 is realistic, with an outside chance of top-12 but a reasonable chance at top-15

birdmann5
04-11-2014, 07:33 PM
Judging him as a player. He's in the argument. His ability to shoot the ball is incredible one of the best ever.

KnicksorBust
04-11-2014, 07:45 PM
god Dirk is so hard for me to judge because he's always been one of my favorite players. Players that I'd definitely take ahead of him are:

Jordan, Hakeem, Kareem, Wilt, Shaq
Magic, Bird, Duncan, Russell, Kobe, Lebron

that's 11 right there. Then you have the next tier of guys: Moses Malone, Kevin Garnett, Charles Barkely, Oscar Robertson, and so forth. So I think top-20 is realistic, with an outside chance of top-12 but a reasonable chance at top-15

Exactly. Give me Elgin Baylor, Karl Malone and Bob Cousy too. I see him as a bubble at 20... no way 12.

Hawkeye15
04-11-2014, 07:45 PM
longevity though... PRIME longevity..

huh? KG was awesome forever. Look, no doubt Dirk has a case inside the top 20, but KG has simply been the more dominant player throughout their time, when you factor in how dominant KG was defensively, and he was no slouch on the other end at all.

In fact, if KG had not had some poor playoff results in his peak, this wouldn't even be a conversation.

Hawkeye15
04-11-2014, 07:46 PM
god Dirk is so hard for me to judge because he's always been one of my favorite players. Players that I'd definitely take ahead of him are:

Jordan, Hakeem, Kareem, Wilt, Shaq
Magic, Bird, Duncan, Russell, Kobe, Lebron

that's 11 right there. Then you have the next tier of guys: Moses Malone, Kevin Garnett, Charles Barkely, Oscar Robertson, and so forth. So I think top-20 is realistic, with an outside chance of top-12 but a reasonable chance at top-15

great post. That is a list that I agree every player is ahead of Dirk.

ThuglifeJ
04-11-2014, 07:55 PM
I mean, I would expect his own coach to say something like this. It's a slight reach, but it's far from pure blasphemy.

The guy had one of the most impressive Finals runs in a very long time. He's aging very well. He's a 13x All Star and perhaps counting. An MVP and a Finals MVP. He's got a lot of accolades. He's top 10 all time in points (NBA only). Top 20 all time in PER, 8th all time in offensive win shares, 9th in total win shares and so on.

He's got a good mix of stats and accolades. I have him firmly in my top-20, I haven't mad a list in a while to be more specific, but he's up there. Add a few more years for longevity purposes and Carlisle shouldn't be looking insane to anyone for this comment.

And he's been quite influential too. The guy is a 7 foot German. Stretch PFs are a mainstay in today's NBA and he was on the forefront of that movement. He was in some ways a pioneer for what has become the desired norm in the NBA from that position. He was something we had never really seen before...at least not at his level, and I don't think enough attention was given to that at the time.

Agree fully with you (for the first time ever perhaps) regarding this post.

ThuglifeJ
04-11-2014, 08:20 PM
huh? KG was awesome forever. Look, no doubt Dirk has a case inside the top 20, but KG has simply been the more dominant player throughout their time, when you factor in how dominant KG was defensively, and he was no slouch on the other end at all.

In fact, if KG had not had some poor playoff results in his peak, this wouldn't even be a conversation.

Both KG and Dirk are 2 of my all-time favorites.. I've always felt they equal out to about the same value, however I'd give slight edge to KG in his prime due to defensive dominance BUT the more and more I think about Dirk's playoff run to win a ring...in which he basically took that ring himself and even upset a couple teams including the heavily favored Heat..the more I think of how KG, or basically anyone, have not done that, and probably aren't capable of. That run was something I've personally never seen since Jordan, the level of how unstoppable he was AND hitting all the big buckets when it mattered most..just incredible. Top 35 no doubt, top 25 most likely, top 20 possibly, can make a case for top 15..however 12 seems a bit high at this point...it's not out of the question.

Don't forget he revolutionized his position, and STILL is the best at doing it (shooting PF/C..lol at anyone who tries to say Love). His shot is probably the most unguardable move (his post fades/body contact fades from blocks) aside from a Shaq Dunk, or a Kareem sky Hook shot. He still can't be guarded, after all these years there is still no answer to it..
Greatest european player ever too

3RDASYSTEM
04-11-2014, 08:39 PM
DIRK is top 10 of his era and in the top new revised 50 players all time, where he ranks is up to the person who places him there, but he is top 50 for sure, its hard to gauge DIRK because he had so much damn team talent his entire time basically outside a couple seasons, its almost like he was the southern version of bean Bryant/lakers to me in a lot of ways, highest or top 3-5 payroll his entire career in dallas, nothing wrong with that but I feel he should have at least 4 finals appearances since bean Bryant has 7 but 2 is still nice for any player in any sport, you can run the O thru him but he doesn't play D and he's not soft but he should be pulling down 10-12rpg just because he is a somewhat mobile 7 foot player who plays both perimeter/post

I like DIRK as a player but I wont over rank him like most will on here because a coach will always pub up his guy to the upmost high and even if it is not his coach its still hard to believe he is top 12 best all time, if you go thru the past decades you would easily find 3-5 players you would take or who are just better/impact wise, nothing against DIRK its just 60yrs of nba players will do that but he is one of the top unique players of all time being a 7 footer with a super flame shot and can take over a game on offense side of ball, but being unique doesn't mean being in top 10 or 20, just ask the majority of psd members who know a thing or 3 about playing/observing the game of basketball(YEAH RIGHT)

Magic coach Chuck Daly is using the type of defense on Iverson that he used to implement against Michael Jordan

"They deserve to win this series," said Magic coach Chuck Daly, who watched Iverson score 30 or more points in three of four games in the series. "This was Allen Iverson's show. He scored 37 points on 14-of-27 shooting and he is such a tough competitor. I don't think you '''(the media)''' realize all the things he does."

“He’s an incredible player, one of the top 10 in history,” former Pistons coach Chuck Daly told a visitor before Iverson ignited and torched Detroit’s defense for game-high totals of 37 points and 15 assists in a 2005 game at Wachovia Center. - SHAQ DIESEL said he was a top 5 player ever - http://youtu.be/SBZ2jlhwpR0

“The difference (between defending Jordan and Iverson),” Daly added, “is that Michael had Scottie (Pippen), who was one of the best players in the league.”Iverson never had a true running mate during his 10-plus years in Philadelphia



"Nobody who has done as much as Allen has done for this league should have to be in Turkey playing, to end his career,'' Brown said before the Bobcats-Magic game Thursday. "We have one of the most special players ever in our sport, who still has something left. I feel terrible about this. That is not how he should be ending his career.''


See how BROWN went to bat for IVERSON just like he does his understudy WOODSON? same thing RICK is doing for DIRK

now DALY is a whole different zone because he didn't coach IVERSON, he went up against him same way he went up against JORDAN(better team/defense), but used the same defense on both players

now where do psd rank JORDAN again on best all time list?

like I said if DIRK is top 12(or arguable) then AI is top 10 all time like DALY stated, easily

SHAQ said AI was top 5 ever, while they both were still playing in the league, wow

Just days after Miami Heat forward LeBron James listed Allen Iverson and Michael Jordan as his childhood idols, the NBA's reigning MVP continued to heap praise on the former Philadelphia 76ers star.

"Pound-for-pound, probably the greatest player who ever played," James said of Iverson

James had told ESPN The Magazine's Chris Broussard that he continues to watch film of Jordan and Iverson.

"I watch Jordan more than anybody for sure," James said in ESPN The Magazine's NBA Preview Issue. "But I'll watch tapes of A.I., too. I don't take anything from A.I.. Well, I do -- his will. They say he was 6 feet, but A.I. was like 5-10˝. Do we even want to say 160? 170 [pounds]? Do we even want to give him that much weight? And he played like a 6-8 2-guard. He was one of the greatest finishers we've ever seen. You could never question his heart. Ever. He gave it his all. A.I. was like my second-favorite player growing up, after MJ."

All told, Iverson has scored more points in his career than the three highest-scoring active players combined -- Chris Paul, Jameer Nelson and Nate Robinson (23,787 points).

Either psd has a joint vendetta with espn/stern or those HOF players/coaches don't know a damn thing about HOF players/talent? i'll ride with the latter(HOF players/coaches) because im sure they rely on the eye test/actually playing than relying other man made science data like PER/WS

Hawkeye15
04-11-2014, 08:46 PM
Agree fully with you (for the first time ever perhaps) regarding this post.

that says a lot about you honestly. ManRam is one of the best posters in the forum, someone who understands the game at a high level.

I digress..

P&GRealist
04-11-2014, 08:46 PM
You're not gonna mention Garnett?

Garnett is top 25 for me. He's never won a finals mvp. Dirk has.

nickdymez
04-11-2014, 08:49 PM
Garnett is top 25 for me. He's never won a finals mvp. Dirk has.

Wow

Hawkeye15
04-11-2014, 08:49 PM
Both KG and Dirk are 2 of my all-time favorites.. I've always felt they equal out to about the same value, however I'd give slight edge to KG in his prime due to defensive dominance BUT the more and more I think about Dirk's playoff run to win a ring...in which he basically took that ring himself and even upset a couple teams including the heavily favored Heat..the more I think of how KG, or basically anyone, have not done that, and probably aren't capable of. That run was something I've personally never seen since Jordan, the level of how unstoppable he was AND hitting all the big buckets when it mattered most..just incredible. Top 35 no doubt, top 25 most likely, top 20 possibly, can make a case for top 15..however 12 seems a bit high at this point...it's not out of the question.

Don't forget he revolutionized his position, and STILL is the best at doing it (shooting PF/C..lol at anyone who tries to say Love). His shot is probably the most unguardable move (his post fades/body contact fades from blocks) aside from a Shaq Dunk, or a Kareem sky Hook shot. He still can't be guarded, after all these years there is still no answer to it..
Greatest european player ever too

yeah. Forget about looking at the rosters Dirk enjoyed over KG, but whatever.

3RDASYSTEM
04-11-2014, 09:07 PM
Garnett is top 25 for me. He's never won a finals mvp. Dirk has.

Now flip DIRK for KG and they have entirely different outcomes, KG anchors D and scores at 20+ppg clip with 12-15rpg, MAVS see LA/SA/SAC in wcf probably every yr with KG, I know it would be more than 2 finals in 16yrs with MAVS for KG, he made 2 in like 6 yrs with C's, and was damaged goods in 2nd finals in 10'...its close(only cause DIRK can drop 40-50 any given night) but I roll with KG who was a way better 2 way player because of his D, but he could also get 20-35pts any given night with rebounds...checkmate

P&GRealist
04-11-2014, 09:09 PM
Now flip DIRK for KG and they have entirely different outcomes, KG anchors D and scores at 20+ppg clip with 12-15rpg, MAVS see LA/SA/SAC in wcf probably every yr with KG, I know it would be more than 2 finals in 16yrs with MAVS for KG, he made 2 in like 6 yrs with C's, and was damaged goods in 2nd finals in 10'...its close but I roll with KG who was a way better 2 way player because of his D, but he could also get 20-35pts any given night with rebounds...checkmate


OK, but shouldn't you be giving credit to a guy who's been carrying the load consistently rather than a guy who agreed to a trade to somewhere else to become the 2nd, sometimes 3rd or maybe even 4th or 5th option and now last 2 yrs into anonymity on 1 leg?

Shouldn't consistency and relevancy long-term count for something?

Check that mate.

Jamiecballer
04-11-2014, 09:23 PM
Carlisle is his coach. He's not expected to be objective.

bagwell368
04-11-2014, 09:53 PM
Hmm interesting, even though we've had this debate a billion times on psd lol but yeah your definitely entitled to that and there's no way I can say your wrong. I still think I can put 10-12 players ahead of Duncan but he's definitely up there.

I agree with him. Duncan is arguably as high as 5, although I think he's 6-8.

Dirk is no worse than about 22, and could end up around 16, but not 12.

Crackadalic
04-11-2014, 10:13 PM
Top 20 with a chance to be top 15

ThuglifeJ
04-12-2014, 03:35 AM
Agree fully with you (for the first time ever perhaps) regarding this post.

that says a lot about you honestly. ManRam is one of the best posters in the forum, someone who understands the game at a high level.

I digress..

Ok. Congrats. Doesn't mean I always should agree with his posts.

It was more so opinions on the Magic back in the day anyway.

Plus you both rely on advanced stats for everything.

ThuglifeJ
04-12-2014, 03:47 AM
Both KG and Dirk are 2 of my all-time favorites.. I've always felt they equal out to about the same value, however I'd give slight edge to KG in his prime due to defensive dominance BUT the more and more I think about Dirk's playoff run to win a ring...in which he basically took that ring himself and even upset a couple teams including the heavily favored Heat..the more I think of how KG, or basically anyone, have not done that, and probably aren't capable of. That run was something I've personally never seen since Jordan, the level of how unstoppable he was AND hitting all the big buckets when it mattered most..just incredible. Top 35 no doubt, top 25 most likely, top 20 possibly, can make a case for top 15..however 12 seems a bit high at this point...it's not out of the question.

Don't forget he revolutionized his position, and STILL is the best at doing it (shooting PF/C..lol at anyone who tries to say Love). His shot is probably the most unguardable move (his post fades/body contact fades from blocks) aside from a Shaq Dunk, or a Kareem sky Hook shot. He still can't be guarded, after all these years there is still no answer to it..
Greatest european player ever too

yeah. Forget about looking at the rosters Dirk enjoyed over KG, but whatever.

So? I was talking about 2011. That roster was not as good as KG Ray Pierce celtics...sure KG was dominant defensively for his championship...but what Dirk did was only comparable to Shaq or Jordan for a finals run. That deserves some extra merit its what we live to see/dream of witnessing from greats. Especially with the game winner to ice the cake

FlashBolt
04-12-2014, 03:51 AM
KG better rebounder, defender, and passer. End of story. If it weren't for a crappy management in Wolves, he would be a winner too. Countless years there and he never received any legitimate support. Not to mention that IMO, his peak was better than Duncan. Insanely great defender who could play any position because he was so skilled. He may be diminished now but KG in his prime was no doubt better than Dirk's peak. Dirk is a better scorer but that does not make up for the inexcusable difference in the other facets of basketball. Defense is part of the game, folks. KG second greatest PF of all time. No finals MVP, who cares about that? That's the equivalent of saying LeBron=Kobe because 2 finals MVP=2 finals MVP. Kobe is ahead of LeBron because of his overall career and there is no doubt that KG is ahead of Dirk.

FlashBolt
04-12-2014, 03:54 AM
Both KG and Dirk are 2 of my all-time favorites.. I've always felt they equal out to about the same value, however I'd give slight edge to KG in his prime due to defensive dominance BUT the more and more I think about Dirk's playoff run to win a ring...in which he basically took that ring himself and even upset a couple teams including the heavily favored Heat..the more I think of how KG, or basically anyone, have not done that, and probably aren't capable of. That run was something I've personally never seen since Jordan, the level of how unstoppable he was AND hitting all the big buckets when it mattered most..just incredible. Top 35 no doubt, top 25 most likely, top 20 possibly, can make a case for top 15..however 12 seems a bit high at this point...it's not out of the question.

Don't forget he revolutionized his position, and STILL is the best at doing it (shooting PF/C..lol at anyone who tries to say Love). His shot is probably the most unguardable move (his post fades/body contact fades from blocks) aside from a Shaq Dunk, or a Kareem sky Hook shot. He still can't be guarded, after all these years there is still no answer to it..
Greatest european player ever too

yeah. Forget about looking at the rosters Dirk enjoyed over KG, but whatever.

So? I was talking about 2011. That roster was not as good as KG Ray Pierce celtics...sure KG was dominant defensively for his championship...but what Dirk did was only comparable to Shaq or Jordan for a finals run. That deserves some extra merit its what we live to see/dream of witnessing from greats. Especially with the game winner to ice the cake

Uhm, you're going to define a player's career because of one season? By contrast, Wade actually had the greatest finals performance in NBA history but you will only find a handful of people who have Wade in the top 15-20. Sorry but KG still prevails. He averaged what? 25 ppg 14 rpg and 6 apg along with 2 spg and 2.6 bpg? Absurd numbers.

sammyvine
04-12-2014, 06:42 AM
KG better rebounder, defender, and passer. End of story. If it weren't for a crappy management in Wolves, he would be a winner too. Countless years there and he never received any legitimate support. Not to mention that IMO, his peak was better than Duncan. Insanely great defender who could play any position because he was so skilled. He may be diminished now but KG in his prime was no doubt better than Dirk's peak. Dirk is a better scorer but that does not make up for the inexcusable difference in the other facets of basketball. Defense is part of the game, folks. KG second greatest PF of all time. No finals MVP, who cares about that? That's the equivalent of saying LeBron=Kobe because 2 finals MVP=2 finals MVP. Kobe is ahead of LeBron because of his overall career and there is no doubt that KG is ahead of Dirk.

well there is. Since when was there an official all time ranking?
just because you think he is ahead doesnt mean others agree with you

sammyvine
04-12-2014, 06:43 AM
yeah. Forget about looking at the rosters Dirk enjoyed over KG, but whatever.

I think KG was a better all round player but i think Dirk has had the better career and will be remembered as the better player because of his 2011 finals performance and his scoring.

Hawkeye15
04-12-2014, 07:05 AM
Ok. Congrats. Doesn't mean I always should agree with his posts.

It was more so opinions on the Magic back in the day anyway.

Plus you both rely on advanced stats for everything.

sure dude. Whatever you say.

Hawkeye15
04-12-2014, 07:08 AM
So? I was talking about 2011. That roster was not as good as KG Ray Pierce celtics...sure KG was dominant defensively for his championship...but what Dirk did was only comparable to Shaq or Jordan for a finals run. That deserves some extra merit its what we live to see/dream of witnessing from greats. Especially with the game winner to ice the cake

so you want to isolate one season with a player who has played 1500 games, and another 1300 games. Gotcha.

Dirk was awesome his his run, but by all accounts measured, his cast is being so underrated. Dirk's 2011 playoffs run has become very overrated.

Hawkeye15
04-12-2014, 07:09 AM
Uhm, you're going to define a player's career because of one season? By contrast, Wade actually had the greatest finals performance in NBA history but you will only find a handful of people who have Wade in the top 15-20. Sorry but KG still prevails. He averaged what? 25 ppg 14 rpg and 6 apg along with 2 spg and 2.6 bpg? Absurd numbers.

he will also fail to recognize his anti-christ LeBron's 2013 playoff run was much stronger than what Dirk did.

Hawkeye15
04-12-2014, 07:11 AM
I think KG was a better all round player but i think Dirk has had the better career and will be remembered as the better player because of his 2011 finals performance and his scoring.

I don't think Dirk will be remembered as the better player overall. And like I said, Dirk was great and all in the 2011 run, but it has become quickly overrated. The rest of his roster was great too during that run.

FlashBolt
04-12-2014, 09:40 AM
well there is. Since when was there an official all time ranking?
just because you think he is ahead doesnt mean others agree with you

When more people agree than disagree, the agreed wins. If you had a poll, chances are Garnett will beat out Dirk.

KnicksorBust
04-12-2014, 10:08 AM
How can he be top 12 when he's only the 5th best at his own position? Throw in all the centers, Jordan-Kobe-Magic-Bird-Oscar-Baylor, and he's not even top 15.

ManRam
04-12-2014, 11:46 AM
How can he be top 12 when he's only the 5th best at his own position? Throw in all the centers, Jordan-Kobe-Magic-Bird-Oscar-Baylor, and he's not even top 15.

Baylor?

Rick's clearly being a bit hyperbolic here, but he's not FAR off. He's off, but that's to be expected. Have to take into account that he has coached the guy for 6 years.

I talked to JB last summer about his top-50 thing and doing it again. I think it's time to do that whole thing again, and told him I'd run it. I'd be surprised to see how much Dirk (deservedly) soars. He didn't think there would be enough change, and I told him that's a silly reason not to do it again. So, we are.

Shammyguy3
04-12-2014, 11:55 AM
Top-50 is an awesome idea

ThuglifeJ
04-12-2014, 01:40 PM
yeah. Forget about looking at the rosters Dirk enjoyed over KG, but whatever.

I think KG was a better all round player but i think Dirk has had the better career and will be remembered as the better player because of his 2011 finals performance and his scoring.

Yup

kdspurman
04-21-2014, 10:49 AM
He's been praising Dirk a lot lately it seems no matter what the topic is about lol

Rick Carlisle On containing Tim Duncan:


Yeah, I mean, we'll look at all that and the match-ups. We got to make him work for shots and keep him off the free throw line. It's a big part of the series, the free throw differential was real big against us in the regular season. We got to do a better job. He's a great player, he's one of the top ten greatest players along with Nowitzki. He's going to score some points. We've got to evaluate our gameplan, adjust it where we need to adjust it and come back here Wednesday guns blazing again. That's what it's going to take to win in here.

FlashBolt
04-21-2014, 10:59 AM
Nowitzki is not top 10. Tim Duncan is. I'd say he's a top 15-20 if anything. Third best PF in terms of winning and career accomplishments. TD, KG, DN.

Walt
04-21-2014, 01:45 PM
Nowitzki is not top 10. Tim Duncan is. I'd say he's a top 15-20 if anything. Third best PF in terms of winning and career accomplishments. TD, KG, DN.


You say in terms of winning and career accomplishments but Dirk ***** on KG in terms of that. You can say KG is more talented, and he is, but KG didn't lead a team with no legit #2 to 12 straight 50 win seasons nor did he win a title as a legit #1, which Dirk did with an historically great Finals run. They both have a ring and an MVP, but Dirk has that Finals MVP along with it. They both have the same 4 spots on the All NBA first team but Dirk has 5 or 6 more All NBA selections total.

KG ***** on Dirk defensively. Not one person in the world will deny that. But Dirk ***** on KG offensively. Dirk basically was close to a 50/40/90 player every season, and he did it once and was tiny percentage points off a few other seasonns, including this one as a 36 year old.

Dirk is better in my opinion. If somneone says they have KG above Dirk, no arguments here. Regardless if one is above the other, it's by only 1 or 2 spots.


Kevin Garnett is the better PLAYER in terms of skill, Dirk has had the better career. Both are top 20 players in NBA history.

Also, not going to use this for any measure but just to throw it out there, Dirk swept KG in the playoffs in 2003 or 2002 and averaged 30+ ppg and 15+ rpg in the series.


It isn't outrageous what Carlisle said. He is pretty close to 12 and Carlisle has coached him for 6 years including getting to coach him during 2011. Coaches do that for their players. Mark Jackson will tell you Steph Curry is the best player in the NBA. Thibs with Rose, Doc with Paul and Griffin, hell even Clifford with Al Jefferson.

DR_1
04-21-2014, 03:18 PM
HELL NO!!!!

http://www.balldontstop.com/rick-carlisle-says-dirk-nowitzki-top-12-time/

He definitely has a case, I don't see what's so outrageous about it.

ghettosean
04-21-2014, 05:07 PM
So? I was talking about 2011. That roster was not as good as KG Ray Pierce celtics...sure KG was dominant defensively for his championship...but what Dirk did was only comparable to Shaq or Jordan for a finals run. That deserves some extra merit its what we live to see/dream of witnessing from greats. Especially with the game winner to ice the cake

so you want to isolate one season with a player who has played 1500 games, and another 1300 games. Gotcha.

Dirk was awesome his his run, but by all accounts measured, his cast is being so underrated. Dirk's 2011 playoffs run has become very overrated.

Right Dirks ring is overrated after he beat the best player and #2 player in the league at the time who joined forces with arguably the best PF at the time who were all franchise players and brought there individual teams to the playoffs and one of them (Wade) won a ring before they all joined together. Let's not forget they took paycuts to get some more players to add to the talent pool and we are OVERRATING DIRKS TEAM/PLAYOFF RUN :facepalm:

How ridiculous!!!

I think you will always under estimate Lebron's team and the superstars he joined up with to make him sound godly which i find a little pathetic to be honest. Here we are again with his hard run to the finals :facepalm:

Jeffy25
04-21-2014, 05:36 PM
So Jasper can see him as a top 20, but can't see him as a top 12.

Is there that much of a gap?


Dirk could end up being a top 10 all time when he retires. He's clearly a top 20, and probably a top 15 right now....and it's not like he's been awful this year to think he's done or something. He could end up being a top 5 all time scorer without much issue.

LTBaByyy
04-21-2014, 07:22 PM
People forget, Dirk is still averaging 20+ PPG at 35 years old while being #1 option while all the other legends in his era have faded or beginning to fade

He's going to retire at 40 still averaging 20+ per game

Of Dirk averages 22 PPG the next 3 years, he will finish 3rd of 4th NBA scorers of all time

If he averages 20 PPG he will finish 5th all time

If he averages 15-19 PPG he will finish 6th all time

People just hate because he is a shooter

LTBaByyy
04-21-2014, 07:30 PM
I'm tired of the KG is better because he played better defense argument.

KG is averaging 7 and 7 (Sam Dalembert numbers) while Dirk hasn't even missed a beat, having one of his best seasons at 35 still posting up 20+ a night


No one is going to rank Harden, Durant, Nash, Melo, and etc low when it's all said and done because of their defense

They all play horrible defense.

Plus Dirk has been at least an average defender his whole career up until 2 years ago when he had surgery and missed time on his knee

He's also a career 8+ RPG so you can't say he didn't rebound

He also averages 25 PPG and 10 RPG in the playoffs (129 games)

If Dirk joined the Miami Heat instead of Bosh, this wouldn't even be a question Dirk or KG

That's why it's a tough question because KG helped his resume when he played with other all stars and just like he is doing again with the Nets

If KG stayed in Minnesota like Dirk is did with Dallas, KG wouldn't even be mentioned above Dirk at all

KG couldn't do it by himself like Dirk can.

Jeffy25
04-21-2014, 07:32 PM
People forget, Dirk is still averaging 20+ PPG at 35 years old while being #1 option while all the other legends in his era have faded or beginning to fade

He's going to retire at 40 still averaging 20+ per game

Of Dirk averages 22 PPG the next 3 years, he will finish 3rd of 4th NBA scorers of all time

If he averages 20 PPG he will finish 5th all time

If he averages 15-19 PPG he will finish 6th all time

I would say reasonable projections for him would be a 20% decrease each season (includes games missed and playing less minutes)

That would be
1388 at 36
1110 at 37
888 at 38
710 at 39
568 at 40

I dunno, maybe that's pessimistic or maybe it's optimistic, I can't really tell.

But that's 4664 more points from 36+

Only three players have scored that many points at 36 or older (Abdul-Jabbar, Malone, and Parish)

But that would give him 31,450 total points, which would put him just ahead of Wilt as 5th all time in scoring.

LTBaByyy
04-21-2014, 07:44 PM
I would say reasonable projections for him would be a 20% decrease each season (includes games missed and playing less minutes)

That would be
1388 at 36
1110 at 37
888 at 38
710 at 39
568 at 40

I dunno, maybe that's pessimistic or maybe it's optimistic, I can't really tell.

But that's 4664 more points from 36+

Only three players have scored that many points at 36 or older (Abdul-Jabbar, Malone, and Parish)

But that would give him 31,450 total points, which would put him just ahead of Wilt as 5th all time in scoring.

His shot is never going away. He also was never the athletic type so he will not fade anytime soon

Every team throws all American all NBA type athletes at him every year, even centers and small forwards at times no one stops him.

His only down seasons were his first 2 seasons in the NBA and last season when he missed 30+ games (Knee surgery) and took 20 games just to get back to all star form (Still averaged 17-18)

He still has 2 or 3 more years of 20+ PPG and 1 or 2 more years after that at 16-18 PPG

Jeffy25
04-21-2014, 07:45 PM
His shot is never going away. He also was never the athletic type so he will not fade anytime soon

Every team throws all American all NBA type athletes at him every year, even centers and small forwards at times no one stops him.

His only down season was his first 2 seasons in the NBA and last season when he missed 30+ games and took 20 games just to get back to all star form (Still averaged 17-18)

He still has 2 or 3 more years of 20+ PPG and 1 or 2 more years after that at 16-18 PPG

Well, not many guys age well after 35, regardless.

I think 4000+ points still could be a reach for him, but it's certainly possible. He's going to get hurt again, just depends when.

sammyvine
04-21-2014, 10:07 PM
garnett should have won far more

he had a great boston team and they only won 1 ring

Thumper 88
04-22-2014, 12:03 PM
If Dirk ends up in the top 5 all time in scoring when he retires then he should be considered in the top 10 of all time to play in the NBA and not just because of his scoring

Thumper 88
04-22-2014, 12:10 PM
garnett should have won far more

he had a great boston team and they only won 1 ring

And just imagine if Dirk had another legit star to pair up with.. And the thing is Dirk is still good enough to carry a team and he's already in the top 10 of all time in points

mngopher35
04-22-2014, 02:22 PM
I'm tired of the KG is better because he played better defense argument.

KG is averaging 7 and 7 (Sam Dalembert numbers) while Dirk hasn't even missed a beat, having one of his best seasons at 35 still posting up 20+ a night


No one is going to rank Harden, Durant, Nash, Melo, and etc low when it's all said and done because of their defense

They all play horrible defense.

Plus Dirk has been at least an average defender his whole career up until 2 years ago when he had surgery and missed time on his knee

He's also a career 8+ RPG so you can't say he didn't rebound

He also averages 25 PPG and 10 RPG in the playoffs (129 games)

If Dirk joined the Miami Heat instead of Bosh, this wouldn't even be a question Dirk or KG

That's why it's a tough question because KG helped his resume when he played with other all stars and just like he is doing again with the Nets

If KG stayed in Minnesota like Dirk is did with Dallas, KG wouldn't even be mentioned above Dirk at all

KG couldn't do it by himself like Dirk can.

It isn't solely because he plays better defense, but the opposite of that is that Dirk is only ranked high because of his offense no? Defense is half the game and KG is elite on that end while Dirk is maybe average. On the other end Dirk is Elite and KG is great but not an elite option (but certainly better than average). A big man having great defense is much more important than a guard as well, especially as an anchor.

Also your comparison of them this season is a little off because KG came into the league earlier and has played almost 6000 more minutes than Dirk so lets see what Dirk is doing about 3 seasons from now once he hits that minute mark.

KG is a better defender, passer/facilitator, and rebounder so it certainly isn't just defense.

Thumper 88
04-22-2014, 03:15 PM
6000 minutes is 125 games about 1 1/2 seasons

Thumper 88
04-22-2014, 03:22 PM
It isn't solely because he plays better defense, but the opposite of that is that Dirk is only ranked high because of his offense no? Defense is half the game and KG is elite on that end while Dirk is maybe average. On the other end Dirk is Elite and KG is great but not an elite option (but certainly better than average). A big man having great defense is much more important than a guard as well, especially as an anchor.

Also your comparison of them this season is a little off because KG came into the league earlier and has played almost 6000 more minutes than Dirk so lets see what Dirk is doing about 3 seasons from now once he hits that minute mark.

KG is a better defender, passer/facilitator, and rebounder so it certainly isn't just defense.

Dirk is the better everything offensively, he opens the floor for other shooter's & he's the better leader.

He also didn't leave his team to join up with other stars to win a championship. I can't find it but I remember MJ calling out LeBron on it, saying he should have stayed with his team like Dirk and take them to winning the championship same goes with KG

mngopher35
04-22-2014, 03:24 PM
6000 minutes is 125 games about 1 1/2 seasons

Well Dirk played 2600 minutes this year for reference and it generally goes down a bit as you age (also he might play less than 82 games). Either way I was just pointing out the difference. I think Dirk ages better than KG either way honestly but comparing him to Dirk at this moment doesn't make much sense. That is why I said it is a little off. The focus should just be that KG's game revolved more around athleticism than Dirk and that has led to better longevity overall

IgglesFanInCO
04-22-2014, 03:25 PM
Damn I wonder how this argument would be if Dirk and KG had switched places their whole career.

Can you imagine KG with a top payroll and consistently solid supporting cast throughout his whole career? This wouldnt even be an argument worth having

someone should make a poll so this can be properly settled though since at this point everyones just recycling the same few arguments for either side

but as long as everyone realizes Timmy D is a league above both of them I'm content :p

mngopher35
04-22-2014, 03:39 PM
Dirk is the better everything offensively, he opens the floor for other shooter's & he's the better leader.

He also didn't leave his team to join up with other stars to win a championship. I can't find it but I remember MJ calling out LeBron on it, saying he should have stayed with his team like Dirk and take them to winning the championship same goes with KG

Sure, if you think that every situation is the same then you can judge players that way. I happen to think that being surrounded by talent is important for championships. KG was traded to Boston as the Twolves tried to rebuild btw (not that he didn't want to leave). Our 2nd best player was Ricky Davis in KG's last year. Dirk had more help throughout his career in Dallas by far than KG on the wolves (the one year we had cassell and spre we made the wcf but cassell got injured, we might have lost either way but we dont know).

The fact that you said better everything offensively is wrong. Last time I checked passing/facilitating was done on the offensive end.

Thumper 88
04-22-2014, 03:43 PM
Damn I wonder how this argument would be if Dirk and KG had switched places their whole career.

Can you imagine KG with a top payroll and consistently solid supporting cast throughout his whole career? This wouldnt even be an argument worth having

someone should make a poll so this can be properly settled though since at this point everyones just recycling the same few arguments for either side

but as long as everyone realizes Timmy D is a league above both of them I'm content :p
That's the thing though. If they switched places Minny would have a championship by now and KG would have left Dallas in search of one

Jeffy25
04-22-2014, 03:44 PM
6000 minutes is 125 games about 1 1/2 seasons

umm, he only plays 30 minutes per game, that's 200 games....and accounting for injuries, will take roughly three seasons.

He doesn't play 48 minutes per game, 82 games per season.

ewing
04-22-2014, 03:54 PM
Dirk has always been better then KG and KG is not a defensive anchor. Anchors defend the hole and KG was never a guy that kept opposing teams out the paint. Great one on one at the PF, great rotating, great even switching onto guards at one point but never a defensive anchor. Perk was their anchor in Boston.

kdspurman
04-22-2014, 03:58 PM
That's the thing though. If they switched places Minny would have a championship by now and KG would have left Dallas in search of one

You think Dallas would have won a title with Minnesota in the west during the early-mid 2000's with Dirk in place of KG?

Thumper 88
04-22-2014, 04:11 PM
Hmm.. Im not sure if Dallas could win a title with Minnesota but if Dirk switched places with KG seeing how Dirk is still playing great I would think by now Minnesota would have a title yes. It is 2014 over 10 years removed from the great Lakers of the early 2000's

mngopher35
04-22-2014, 05:45 PM
That's the thing though. If they switched places Minny would have a championship by now and KG would have left Dallas in search of one

You must not follow Wolves basketball very closely. Not a bad thing, but the only years you could add Dirk to our team and have us win a title were when KG was still here.

Thumper 88
04-22-2014, 06:14 PM
Hence the fact I believe they would have won with Dirk. Maybe I wasn't clear enough on that

mngopher35
04-22-2014, 07:14 PM
Hence the fact I believe they would have won with Dirk. Maybe I wasn't clear enough on that

I meant with both KG and Dirk we could have won. With just Dirk, injured cassell, and Sprewell vs the 2004 Lakers then Pistons you think we get the title? I don't know what other year he would have had a chance. Anyways I don't think we will ever agree on this point at all as Dirk would never have gotten us to a title with similar types of teams.

I was pointing out to that poster that there are other things KG is better at than Dirk besides defense. That being said the Defensive gap is pretty significant. Really what other than his scoring ability is Dirk better at? Ya it leads to more spacing on the floor etc. but it seems as though KG is actually the better all around player while it is one talent of Dirk's that ranks him so highly (which isn't necessarily bad as scoring is the most important skill imo).

I never once claimed you need to rank KG higher but since we are getting into it my opinion is he should be and I believe that majority would agree. We can start a poll if you would like?

Thumper 88
04-22-2014, 07:48 PM
A PSD poll? Those are sometimes laughable..

mngopher35
04-22-2014, 08:07 PM
A PSD poll? Those are sometimes laughable..

Well I can't say you are wrong haha. I just thought it would show where the majority lie in this conversation though. I actually am curious as to where Dirk will be ranked now with his ring. I guess we can wait till summer for that though as I beleive manram said they will be doing another top 50.

In the end I don't think you are necessarily wrong for choosing Dirk (rankings like this are always based off opinion), I just disagreed with that poster on some of the reasoning. Both are great players and I personally think KG should be ranked higher all time.

Thumper 88
04-22-2014, 08:27 PM
For sure bro. Good debate! Let's come back to this in a few years and see. :cheers: