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View Full Version : DeMar DeRozan; the Raps best Defensive Player



Mile High Champ
04-10-2014, 09:47 PM
Like many of you, I have really enjoyed the growth and maturity of DeMar DeRozan. Yes his offensive game has taken great strides this year with the addition of a consistent mid range jumper with a slight improvement of his success beyond the arch. But; one area where DeMar has made the greatest improvement and continues to get little to no respect when it comes to Raps fans is his defense. Now many people will likely call me crazy for this statement, but DeMar is easily the best perimeter defender this team has to offer and may just be the most vital defensive player to our success this post-season.

DeMar this season has been nothing short of sensational on the defensive end. He has made great strides in improving his lateral quickness to stay in front of defenders and developing the patience to no longer jump on shot fakes or be caught put of position on defensive rotations.

To illustrate my point, let’s examine just how good DeMar has been on defense compared to the NBA’s elite. In order to do this, I will focus on the wonderful tool of analytics. Keep in mind that the players I picked were based on reputation amongst fans as being some of the more elite defenders in the game today or recently. I also included Terrence Ross for good measure since Raps fans have a raging hard on for his defense. The defensive areas I chose to focus in on were defending the pick and roll, spot up and off screens. The reason for this is because the majority of wing players spend the vast majority of the time defending a pick and roll play or a spot up shot. Usually just these two plays alone account for over 60% of a wing player's defensive plays.

Categories included in this chart include:
Overall Defense (OD – Measured by Points per Possession)
Overall FG% Against (FG% – Measured by the field goal percentage the player gives up)
Pick and Roll defense on the ball handler (PnR – Measured by Points per Possession)
Spot up Defense (SuD - Measured by Points per Possession)
Off Screen (OS - Measured by Points per Possession)
Isolation plays – one on one (IP – Measured by Points per Possession)
Post defense (PD - Measured by Points per Possession)




Player OD FG% PnR SuD OS IP PD

D. DeRozan .81 36.7 0.73 0.92 0.86 .40 1.04
L. James .83 37.8 0.56 0.90 0.86 .79 0.75
P. George .83 37.2 0.71 0.90 1.02 .72 0.81
A. Iguodala .83 39.3 0.71 1.05 0.70 .80 0.88
T. Allen .89 37.8 0.81 0.86 1.00 1.13 1.18
L. Stephenson .85 37.5 0.78 1.05 0.75 .89 0.92
T. Sefolosha .94 42.7 0.74 1.22 0.90 .75 1.33
J.Butler .81 38.7 0.80 0.83 0.91 .70 0.77
K. Leonard .76 35.4 0.62 0.94 0.76 .68 0.94
T. Ross .89 39.3 0.85 1.02 0.82 .86 0.76


After reviewing these numbers, a few things jump out at you likely. For one, just how incredible Kawhi Leonard is defensively. At the young age of 22, he is already dominating the league with his defense. He ranks 30th overall in the league in terms of PPP given up which is quite incredible for a wing defender given just how much wing players touch the ball on a given night. Another area that jumps out at me personally is DeRozan, the topic of this post and discussion. DeRozan ranks with the best of the best when it comes with overall defense, FG% given up, defending the pick and roll, Isolation plays and off screens. As I said, the stats that we need to pay most attention to are PnR and Spot up defense because they make up the majority of a wing players defensive time. When it comes to DeRozan he is right alongside Lebron, George and the leagues best when it comes to these areas and perimeter D.

Some interesting points of discussion for DeRozan are around his PnR defense and Isolation plays. Currently, DeRozan is the league’s best isolation defender. Yes his sample size is fairly small with just 58 plays where DeMar was isolated but he still ended up only yielding .40 PPP on those plays and only allowing shooters to shoot 19% from the floor. In terms of the other areas, DeMar is well above the league average and in the top echelon of wing defenders when it comes to defending the pick and roll (giving up .73 PPP). Ross on the other hand, who has made strides on defense gives up .85 PPP defending the pick and roll. Demar also happens to be a better spot up defender as well as he gives up .91 PPP while Ross gives up 1.02 PPP. The only area Ross has a significant edge in on defense is post D but both players spend less than 8% of their time defending on the block. DeRozan also currently has a significant edge in opponent field goal percentage as Ross gives up 39% on defense to DeRozan's 36%.

While Ross is a more flashy defensive player (playing the passing lanes and making the dramatic stops), DeRozan is the better defender though I do think it is close. I think Ross has the tools to be just as good as DeMar defensively. I also don't buy the argument Ross is always on the other teams best player. This is mostly true with PG's and quick guards like Wall and Curry but bigger guys like Melo, Lebron, George etc often see lots of match up time with DeRozan. If you honestly believe DeRozan is always on the weaker defender, take a look again because it ain't the case. It is more split then you would first think. I hope this post shows Raps fans, just how good of a defender DeRozan is becoming and currently is today. Please note that analytics are most effective if we can consider a sample of a few seasons but one year can give us a good indication of where a player is headed. For DeMar, the ceiling is quite high and he is easily the Raps most consistent and best defensive player.

North Yorker
04-10-2014, 10:05 PM
Lol no.

Demar guarded Toney Douglas and James Jones vs the Miami Heat last time we played them. Ross, Salmons, and Fields guarded LeBron.

Ross also guards Paul George the vast majority of the time and does a damn good job too.

Do you honestly watch Raps games?

Mile High Champ
04-10-2014, 10:10 PM
Lol no.

Demar guarded Toney Douglas and James Jones vs the Miami Heat last time we played them. Ross, Salmons, and Fields guarded LeBron.

Ross also guards Paul George the vast majority of the time and does a damn good job too.

Do you honestly watch Raps games?

One game? That is the sample we are examining here. Unless you can show me statistical evidence showing the percentage of time DeRozan defends the teams second best player or off guard, it is simply a claim.

I don't know why you have to be offensive with a comment like "do you watch raps games?" Seriously? Lets debate and discuss things properly. This is not the NBA forum.

smith&wesson
04-10-2014, 10:21 PM
good post MHC.. I never really looked at Derozans D in that light, I'll have to play closer attention to it. If the list up there is true, it looks like he is up there with the elite defenders in the league.

that can only mean good things with ross as the other defender on the perimeter. by the way, the other 3 starters aren't slouches on D either. I think Casey should get a lot of credit here.

Mile High Champ
04-10-2014, 10:24 PM
I also have to stress, this post is not about me arguing DeRozan is better than Ross or vice versa. It is to simply educate about the growth of DeRozan on the defensive end. Why peolpe would want to debate just how far he has come, I am not sure. It is certainly not a mirage.

Mile High Champ
04-10-2014, 10:26 PM
good post MHC.. I never really looked at Derozans D in that light, I'll have to play closer attention to it. If the list up there is true, it looks like he is up there with the elite defenders in the league.

that can only mean good things with ross as the other defender on the perimeter. by the way, the other 3 starters aren't slouches on D either. I think Casey should get a lot of credit here.

You make a great point about Casey deserving credit. He has certainly taugh DeRozan a lot about defensive technqiue and his willingness to learn and listen has really paid off. You are also right on about the team really having no pushovers in the starting line up on the defensive end.

North Yorker
04-10-2014, 10:28 PM
One game? That is the sample we are examining here. Unless you can show me statistical evidence showing the percentage of time DeRozan defends the teams second best player or off guard, it is simply a claim.

I don't know why you have to be offensive with a comment like "do you watch raps games?" Seriously?

I gave 2 examples where DeRozan clearly does not guard the Lebrons/Georges of the world. I won't go through every game but I will show you examples.

Here's some video evidence:

Ross and Salmons guarding George.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLEDUGHY9TA

Here's another. Ross, Salmons, Fields guarding LeBron. Look at who's DeRozan's guarding.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feIn931OU7Y

Ross shut down Wall at the end of games too. It's quite clear he's our best perimeter defender by a WIDE margin over Derozan. He has superior lateral quicks.

If you want to crown DeRozan as an elite defender when he doesn't guard elite players, then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Rego247
04-10-2014, 11:55 PM
What NorthYorker said.

If we can't agree on the fact Ross guards the opposing teams best wing then we can't have a productive discussion.

I've seen him guard Irving, Wall, George, Harden, Lebron consistently. Whose defensive stats wouldn't take a hit guarding these players?

And if he isn't guarding them then it's because he's in foul trouble, in which case Salmons fills in for him.

Sadds The Gr8
04-11-2014, 12:43 AM
I think Amir Johnson and Ross are better

FriedTofuz
04-11-2014, 01:23 AM
Ross lowry and Johnson are better defenders than Deroan.

R. Johnson#3
04-11-2014, 06:25 AM
DD's defence has gotten much better this year but Ross does always take the toughest assignment on the wing.

mjt20mik
04-11-2014, 08:24 AM
Demar isn't a bad as people think, but he doesn't always defend the other team's best guard. That is normally Ross.

BALLER R
04-11-2014, 08:39 AM
This is exactly why I always say stats can be misleading. Ross gives up 39% on defense to DeRozan's 36%. Lets look at the fact that Ross is guarding guys that shoot higher field goal percentage than 39%. The guys Demar guards is shooting around 40.

Ross guards guys shooting 44% and above
Demar usually guards the guys shooting less than that

Ross is guarding Wall, Lebron, Durant, Paul George, Harden, and every other elite guard we face.

The post is titles Demar Derozan, The raptors best Defensive Player. There will be debate because he isn't even top 3 best defenders on this team.

I watched every sinlge raptors game this year. Derozan gets blown by so often. He's improved compared to the last couple years. Watch a Raptors game and tell me when the defense picks up. When Derozan is out the game or when Ross and Salmons is out the game.

Only time Demar guards the best is if he ends up on a switch or Ross is in foul trouble. But even then Salmons comes in.

bartron_44
04-11-2014, 09:15 AM
One also has to take into account that Ross is only in his second year, his first season as a starter, and he is guarding the best scorers in the league. I will give you that Derozan is becoming a good defender...but Ross is on his way to becoming an elite perimeter defender.

Our starting 5 is one of the best defensive lineups in the NBA, and they are one of the youngest too... :)

killersweet
04-11-2014, 09:58 AM
One also has to take into account that Ross is only in his second year, his first season as a starter, and he is guarding the best scorers in the league. I will give you that Derozan is becoming a good defender...but Ross is on his way to becoming an elite perimeter defender.

Our starting 5 is one of the best defensive lineups in the NBA, and they are one of the youngest too... :)
very good point. Ross is still learning and he is going to be a very good defender if he keeps working hard. In one year, he has come a long way. It is a big deal when you have to guard the best players in the league. Most of the nights regardless of how hard you try to guard them, the stars are always going to put up good numbers. How often DD guards the best players on the opposing teams? If we can see the stats and compare that to ross, then we can get a better idea. Without that we can't simply proclaim DD as the best defender on the team.

North Yorker
04-11-2014, 10:27 AM
very good point. Ross is still learning and he is going to be a very good defender if he keeps working hard. In one year, he has come a long way. It is a big deal when you have to guard the best players in the league. Most of the nights regardless of how hard you try to guard them, the stars are always going to put up good numbers. How often DD guards the best players on the opposing teams? If we can see the stats and compare that to ross, then we can get a better idea. Without that we can't simply proclaim DD as the best defender on the team.

I literally tried to remember the last time DeRozan guarded an elite wing.

Then this happened.

http://youtu.be/lpgtq7vZgts?t=1m25s

Mile High Champ
04-11-2014, 10:41 AM
This is exactly why I always say stats can be misleading. Ross gives up 39% on defense to DeRozan's 36%. Lets look at the fact that Ross is guarding guys that shoot higher field goal percentage than 39%. The guys Demar guards is shooting around 40.

Ross guards guys shooting 44% and above
Demar usually guards the guys shooting less than that

Ross is guarding Wall, Lebron, Durant, Paul George, Harden, and every other elite guard we face.

The post is titles Demar Derozan, The raptors best Defensive Player. There will be debate because he isn't even top 3 best defenders on this team.

I watched every sinlge raptors game this year. Derozan gets blown by so often. He's improved compared to the last couple years. Watch a Raptors game and tell me when the defense picks up. When Derozan is out the game or when Ross and Salmons is out the game.

Only time Demar guards the best is if he ends up on a switch or Ross is in foul trouble. But even then Salmons comes in.

Where are you getting your stats from? Never seen stats that combine the field goal percentage of players a given player has guarded for the whole season. Would love to a see a soruce

Statistics don't support your claim he is constantly being blown by. Look at the isolation and PnR stats. They paint a different piucture, a very acturate picture actually.

Mile High Champ
04-11-2014, 10:45 AM
I gave 2 examples where DeRozan clearly does not guard the Lebrons/Georges of the world. I won't go through every game but I will show you examples.

Here's some video evidence:

Ross and Salmons guarding George.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLEDUGHY9TA

Here's another. Ross, Salmons, Fields guarding LeBron. Look at who's DeRozan's guarding.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feIn931OU7Y

Ross shut down Wall at the end of games too. It's quite clear he's our best perimeter defender by a WIDE margin over Derozan. He has superior lateral quicks.

If you want to crown DeRozan as an elite defender when he doesn't guard elite players, then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Here is my biggest issue with this, the videos are highlights of the parts of 2 seperate games. Not even the game in its entirety. Unless you can provide some kind of statistic that supports DeRozan never ever guards the opposing teams best player, it is nothing more than an observation. Your sample size needs to be greater than 2 games as we are discounting the other 76+ games this season. Highlights never show defense, only offense. We are ignroing the entire game by looking at a small highlight package.

I am also not saying DeRozan guards the other teams best player all time but rather he does see time agaisnt the premier players. I was at the last Thunder game and DeRozan was on Durant for large sections of the game. Again just an observation.

BALLER R
04-11-2014, 11:03 AM
Where are you getting your stats from? Never seen stats that combine the field goal percentage of players a given player has guarded for the whole season. Would love to a see a soruce.

What are you talking about. smh can you read what I said. The guys Ross guards individually majority of them shoot over 44%. Look at every elite guard and their field goal percent on the season.

BALLER R
04-11-2014, 11:07 AM
Here is my biggest issue with this, the videos are highlights of the parts of 2 seperate games. Not even the game in its entirety. Unless you can provide some kind of statistic that supports DeRozan never ever guards the opposing teams best player, it is nothing more than an observation. Your sample size needs to be greater than 2 games as we are discounting the other 76+ games this season. Highlights never show defense, only offense. We are ignroing the entire game by looking at a small highlight package.

I am also not saying DeRozan guards the other teams best player all time but rather he does see time agaisnt the premier players. I was at the last Thunder game and DeRozan was on Durant for large sections of the game. Again just an observation.

Yeah Ross had a bad game and only played 22 mins. Think he got in early foul trouble I can't remember. But this doesn't help Derozan's case because Durant drop 52 on us that game shot 46% and 58% from 3.

so for the remainder of the season how about we pay attention to the team defensively and continue this discussion.

Mile High Champ
04-11-2014, 11:10 AM
What are you talking about. smh can you read what I said. The guys Ross guards individually majority of them shoot over 44%. Look at every elite guard and their field goal percent on the season.

You are assuming that for the 26 mins a game Ross play, he is guarding guys that shoot over 44% from the field. Where is your proof of this? Is he on the same player the whole 26 minute he is on the floor? What about zone and defensive rotations? All you have done is chosen a random statistic out of the air claiming Ross is only onb guys shooting over 44% from the floor when that is far from the truth.

BALLER R
04-11-2014, 11:18 AM
You are assuming that for the 26 mins a game Ross play, he is guarding guys that shoot over 44% from the field. Where is your proof of this? Is he on the same player the whole 26 minute he is on the floor? What about zone and defensive rotations? All you have done is chosen a random statistic out of the air claiming Ross is only onb guys shooting over 44% from the floor when that is far from the truth.

Yes he does. I watch games. maybe you should too.

Mile High Champ
04-11-2014, 11:26 AM
Ross lowry and Johnson are better defenders than Deroan.

Again more myths. People love to go with the eye test but it is simply not accurate when judging a sample size like an entire season. You only see what you want to see.

Johnson is a good help defender and a great defender in the PnR. Where he is actually is well below average is post defense and isolatuon plays. He is around average when it comes to defending the spot up shooter. Hard to say Amir is better when he simply gets abused in the post (giving up 50%) on those plays. Amir is exciting, emotional and a hard working player but he is not a great defender overall.

Lowry is another guy where it is mostly myth. He really has not been a plus defender in quite sometime. He lets guys shoot 42.6% against him and sturggles in Isolation, defending the spot up shot and is average in the pick and roll. I anm not saying he is bad but rather very average.

From an Analitics perspective, the only player that is on par with DeRozan from a one on one persepctive is Jonas and Salmons. It really is amazing how good JV has become down low for us. He is terrific in the pick and roll and more importantly in the post. Did you know that Jonas is only allowing opposing players to shoot 38% when he is defending that low block. Add in Salmons who is amongst the best in the league gaurding the pick and roll and defending off screens. Players are only scoring .58 PPP in pick and roll situations.

Mile High Champ
04-11-2014, 11:29 AM
Yes he does. I watch games. maybe you should too.

Again the insults. I am the TM for the Raps forum. You honestly don't believe I watch games? Just because you disagree with me does not mean I don't watch games. Actually heading down to my 15 raps game of the year tonight.

BALLER R
04-11-2014, 11:33 AM
Again more myths. People love to go with the eye test but it is simply not accurate when judging a sample size like an entire season. You only see what you want to see.

Johnson is a good help defender and a great defender in the PnR. Where he is actually is well below average is post defense and isolatuon plays. He is around average when it comes to defending the spot up shooter. Hard to say Amir is better when he simply gets abused in the post (giving up 50%) on those plays. Amir is exciting, emotional and a hard working player but he is not a great defender overall.

Lowry is another guy where it is mostly myth. He really has not been a plus defender in quite sometime. He lets guys shoot 42.6% against him and sturggles in Isolation, defending the spot up shot and is average in the pick and roll. I anm not saying he is bad but rather very average.

From an Analitics perspective, the only player that is on par with DeRozan from a one on one persepctive is Jonas and Salmons. It really is amazing how good JV has become down low for us. He is terrific in the pick and roll and more importantly in the post. Did you know that Jonas is only allowing opposing players to shoot 38% when he is defending that low block. Add in Salmons who is amongst the best in the league gaurding the pick and roll and defending off screens. Players are only scoring .58 PPP in pick and roll situations.

:facepalm:

BALLER R
04-11-2014, 11:37 AM
Ross, Amir, Lowry, Patterson are all average defenders and Demar is the best defender on this team. We have all been fooled all this time.

Mile High Champ
04-11-2014, 11:39 AM
:facepalm:

Just reinforces the position you won't actually discuss what I have brought up critically.

Mile High Champ
04-11-2014, 11:41 AM
Ross, Amir, Lowry, Patterson are all average defenders and Demar is the best defender on this team. We have all been fooled all this time.

Never said Ross was just an average defender. The point of this was to illustrate the growth of DeRozan on the defensive end. I simply have explained that Lowry and Amir are exposed in critical areas but the homer in you would rather not discuss that further. No worries man.

killersweet
04-11-2014, 11:51 AM
Again more myths. People love to go with the eye test but it is simply not accurate when judging a sample size like an entire season. You only see what you want to see.

Johnson is a good help defender and a great defender in the PnR. Where he is actually is well below average is post defense and isolatuon plays. He is around average when it comes to defending the spot up shooter. Hard to say Amir is better when he simply gets abused in the post (giving up 50%) on those plays. Amir is exciting, emotional and a hard working player but he is not a great defender overall.

Lowry is another guy where it is mostly myth. He really has not been a plus defender in quite sometime. He lets guys shoot 42.6% against him and sturggles in Isolation, defending the spot up shot and is average in the pick and roll. I anm not saying he is bad but rather very average.

From an Analitics perspective, the only player that is on par with DeRozan from a one on one persepctive is Jonas and Salmons. It really is amazing how good JV has become down low for us. He is terrific in the pick and roll and more importantly in the post. Did you know that Jonas is only allowing opposing players to shoot 38% when he is defending that low block. Add in Salmons who is amongst the best in the league gaurding the pick and roll and defending off screens. Players are only scoring .58 PPP in pick and roll situations.

Unless you show me that DD has guarded the best players from the other teams more effectively than ross, I am not buying that DD is the best defender on this team. I am not talking about lowry or amir. I am still simply comparing DD and Ross.

Bob_at_york
04-11-2014, 11:53 AM
DeMar's improvements on the defensive end have gone relatively un-noticed but he definitely deserves a lot of credit. Not ready to label him as the best defender on the team but he has done a great job on a good defensive team.

pulzar
04-11-2014, 11:53 AM
Ross, Amir, Lowry, Patterson are all average defenders and Demar is the best defender on this team. We have all been fooled all this time.

Speak for yourself. I also think that Amir and Patterson are quite average when it comes to defending. Ross is very flashy and capable one-on-one defender against small and quick defenders, but struggles against larger players, and tends to coast/disappear at times. I really have a tough time identifying a strong individual defender on this team and this time -- where the team really shines is in team defense, by rotating/helping quickly, and this has to be attributed to good coaching.

But, anyway, the picture you are trying to paint based on a few observations doesn't seem to match reality, at least in my opinion.

To resolve this in a meaningful way, it would be very nice to be able to correlate offensive production of the player being guarded with the defensive numbers. I'm not sure how we can go about doing that, though?

pina_711
04-11-2014, 12:01 PM
Again more myths. People love to go with the eye test but it is simply not accurate when judging a sample size like an entire season. You only see what you want to see.

Johnson is a good help defender and a great defender in the PnR. Where he is actually is well below average is post defense and isolatuon plays. He is around average when it comes to defending the spot up shooter. Hard to say Amir is better when he simply gets abused in the post (giving up 50%) on those plays. Amir is exciting, emotional and a hard working player but he is not a great defender overall.

Lowry is another guy where it is mostly myth. He really has not been a plus defender in quite sometime. He lets guys shoot 42.6% against him and sturggles in Isolation, defending the spot up shot and is average in the pick and roll. I anm not saying he is bad but rather very average.

From an Analitics perspective, the only player that is on par with DeRozan from a one on one persepctive is Jonas and Salmons. It really is amazing how good JV has become down low for us. He is terrific in the pick and roll and more importantly in the post. Did you know that Jonas is only allowing opposing players to shoot 38% when he is defending that low block. Add in Salmons who is amongst the best in the league gaurding the pick and roll and defending off screens. Players are only scoring .58 PPP in pick and roll situations.

Hi

I have been a Raps fan for 10 years now, watching the team through the bad times and the good. I actually visit this forum a lot, because I can tell most of you are huge raptors fans as well. I've got to say, its been really enjoyable watching DeMar grow as a player from his rookie year. I definitely agree with you that his defense has taken huge leaps the past few years, particularly this season. I can think of a few instances off the top of my head this year where his defense has helped seal games: the Houston game last week at home, where he came up with a steal and then pushed it up the court and ran a pick and roll, getting it into JV for the easy basket. Also, there was that game in Cleveland back in February where he intercepted a pass into Hawes which would have been an easy dunk. Again, showing much improved help defense and defensive awareness.

I do think though that in terms of his one on one perimeter defense, he is not as good as Ross. Again, it is just my opinion, and you point out that the eye test is always prone to bias, which i do agree with. But again, I think we can all agree that while stats are useful, they have their pitfalls as well, often times not taking into account the situation. For instance, I have consistently seen Ross guard the best wing player on the opposing team for much of the game (again, yes you are right in that Ross is probably not guarding them every single minute he is on), usually sticking them in the opening and closing quarters for most of the time, sometimes Salmons guarding them for periods as well. Look at one of the more recent games for example, in Milwaukee this past saturday. DeMar could not stop Khris Middleton, who had been shooting some terrible percentages going into that game. Middleton was getting really easy drives to the lane, just blowing by DeMar. Im not sure if I can post links here, but if you go to the game summary of that game vs. the bucks on ESPN.com, they point out that Middleton had 20 points on 6 of 9 shooting, coming off a shooting slump over the previous 4 games where he was 14 for 41.

Anyways, I'm not trying to say DeMar is terrible as defending, I guess you can argue Middleton got hot that night, but I really do believe that Ross is a better man to man defender out on the wing than DeMar is at this point. But again, that's just one guys opinion.

3Blueforyou
04-11-2014, 12:06 PM
Unless you show me that DD has guarded the best players from the other teams more effectively than ross, I am not buying that DD is the best defender on this team. I am not talking about lowry or amir. I am still simply comparing DD and Ross.

Just saying as an observer, but Mhc provides a well written post with a good amount of evidence supporting his opinions. The response amounts to the old well I watch the games, and you must not. Some other weak arguments are presented, the. You flip the onus on him to provide stats to try to prove your point?

Why can't the limitations, and issues you have with his stats be discussed? It started to maybe look like that might happen when the attempts in isolation DD has faced was brought up but it quickly turned into just a smut argument again.

I am not making this post to support Mhc post particularly, more so to comment on the responses he received. A discussion on these numbers, and drawing particular comparisons between Ross and dd stats, looking at things like usage and who they are covering, over a large sample could lead to a constructive discussion. Not a highlight reel of two or three games of late.

BALLER R
04-11-2014, 12:10 PM
Never said Ross was just an average defender. The point of this was to illustrate the growth of DeRozan on the defensive end. I simply have explained that Lowry and Amir are exposed in critical areas but the homer in you would rather not discuss that further. No worries man.

My point is that Derozan has grown from basically a terrible defender to about an average one. To say he's the best defender on this team is crazy because it's simply not true.

According to that stat provided looking at just field goal percentage alone shows it doesn't tell the whole story. According to that Demar is holding opponents to 36.7 %. So your telling me that's better than Lebron, PG, Iggy, Leonard, and Tony Allen. You need to provide the stats showing who their guarding.

North Yorker
04-11-2014, 12:12 PM
Here is my biggest issue with this, the videos are highlights of the parts of 2 seperate games. Not even the game in its entirety. Unless you can provide some kind of statistic that supports DeRozan never ever guards the opposing teams best player, it is nothing more than an observation. Your sample size needs to be greater than 2 games as we are discounting the other 76+ games this season. Highlights never show defense, only offense. We are ignroing the entire game by looking at a small highlight package.

I am also not saying DeRozan guards the other teams best player all time but rather he does see time agaisnt the premier players. I was at the last Thunder game and DeRozan was on Durant for large sections of the game. Again just an observation.

As Rego said, if you're not willing to admit that Ross guards the opposing team's best perimeter player, then there is no point in discussing this.

I assume 99% of Raps fans will tell you that ever since Gay has been traded, Ross guards the premier wing player. It is clearly apparent to anyone who has watched the games this season.

They hide DeRozan on defense, plain and simple. They match him up with the non-ball handlers of the offense so he can't be exploited off the dribble.

It's like saying this:
Player A is shooting 100% from 3
Player B is shooting 47.8% from 3.

Except no one is making a thread saying "Player A is the best 3 point shooter on the team".
Player A is Marcin Gortat (1/1 on the year). Player B is Kyle Korver. You can't be defined as the best defender on the team if you can't defend good players, just like Gortat isn't the best 3P shooter because he doesn't shoot them. There's a difference between guarding Lebron and guarding James Jones. Ranking our wings defensively (Ross/DDR/Salmons/Fields) I think most would rank DeRozan last.

B2B
04-11-2014, 12:14 PM
Speak for yourself. I also think that Amir and Patterson are quite average when it comes to defending. Ross is very flashy and capable one-on-one defender against small and quick defenders, but struggles against larger players, and tends to coast/disappear at times. I really have a tough time identifying a strong individual defender on this team and this time -- where the team really shines is in team defense, by rotating/helping quickly, and this has to be attributed to good coaching.

But, anyway, the picture you are trying to paint based on a few observations doesn't seem to match reality, at least in my opinion.

To resolve this in a meaningful way, it would be very nice to be able to correlate offensive production of the player being guarded with the defensive numbers. I'm not sure how we can go about doing that, though?

Your having trouble identifying Amir?.

I'm not good with adv stats, last 4 games without Amir

Houston 103
Pacers 94 - (not a good offensive team)
Bucks 98
Philly 114

I could go further but basically what I'm saying is Amir is the teams defensive anchor & he cleans up a lot of this teams mistakes/missed rotations. I hope my poor use of stats illustrates his absence.

B2B
04-11-2014, 12:25 PM
Derozan has improved in all aspects of his game including defense but your stats are misleading.

When Casey has to put Ross on Korver to hide Derozan your stats are misleading unless you can quantify the level of competition as pointed out by NY & BallerR.

BALLER R
04-11-2014, 01:04 PM
Derozan has improved in all aspects of his game including defense but your stats are misleading.

When Casey has to put Ross on Korver to hide Derozan your stats are misleading unless you can quantify the level of competition as pointed out by NY & BallerR.

Exactly.

Tonights game Ross will most likely guard JR Smith and Melo at times. But Melo will abuse anyone in the paint so Casey will probably have Amir and Patterson on him.

Derozan will most likely guard Hardaway Jr. and Shump.

And to end it all. If Demar is the best Defender what on earth is your Sophomore doing guarding Lebron, Durant, PG or Harden.

Jamiecballer
04-11-2014, 01:17 PM
Demar deserves praise for improving his defense but i don't think he's one of the better defenders on the team.

I love stats but i'm going to side with the folks that say that this is a sketchy conclusion.

killersweet
04-11-2014, 01:38 PM
Just saying as an observer, but Mhc provides a well written post with a good amount of evidence supporting his opinions. The response amounts to the old well I watch the games, and you must not. Some other weak arguments are presented, the. You flip the onus on him to provide stats to try to prove your point?

Why can't the limitations, and issues you have with his stats be discussed? It started to maybe look like that might happen when the attempts in isolation DD has faced was brought up but it quickly turned into just a smut argument again.

I am not making this post to support Mhc post particularly, more so to comment on the responses he received. A discussion on these numbers, and drawing particular comparisons between Ross and dd stats, looking at things like usage and who they are covering, over a large sample could lead to a constructive discussion. Not a highlight reel of two or three games of late.

Did I ever say that MHC doesn't watch the games and I do and somehow dismissing his post based on eye test? If you are going to quote my response, then at least find the quote where I have said anything like that. My point simply was that it is hard to compare ross and DD simply based on the stats MHC has shown. I strongly believe players who guard the elite players of the league would have skewed defensive numbers. MHC stated that DD is the best defender on the team based on these stats. I am merely stating that we can't really reach that conclusion without seeing some stats which show what % of top level players ross/DD guarded respectively. Unfortunately I couldn't find data that shows that.

BALLER R
04-11-2014, 01:57 PM
Did I ever say that MHC doesn't watch the games and I do and somehow dismissing his post based on eye test? If you are going to quote my response, then at least find the quote where I have said anything like that. My point simply was that it is hard to compare ross and DD simply based on the stats MHC has shown. I strongly believe players who guard the elite players of the league would have skewed defensive numbers. MHC stated that DD is the best defender on the team based on these stats. I am merely stating that we can't really reach that conclusion without seeing some stats which show what % of top level players ross/DD guarded respectively. Unfortunately I couldn't find data that shows that.

Yeah I can't find those stats anywhere either. I'm sure it exist. Anyone know where we can find these please lead us to it.

B2B
04-11-2014, 02:42 PM
Demar deserves praise for improving his defense but i don't think he's one of the better defenders on the team.

I love stats but i'm going to side with the folks that say that this is a sketchy conclusion.

It's amazing how stats read according to ones point of view.

deaner
04-11-2014, 03:23 PM
I've been a big supporter of Demar throughout the years. I'm wondering now with his status if the raptors front office isn't trying to inflate demars game for a potential trade. If there's a trade to better the starting rotation it might be Demar. It depends on his value to another team. Ross at the 2 for me is a way better fit than the 3. I would explore a Demar for wiggins deal. Sad. I would hate to see him go.

smith&wesson
04-11-2014, 03:44 PM
MHC has taken the time to provide evidence, he is giving you hard cold facts, stats & numbers that support his clamins etc. he didnt come on here and simply state "I think derozan is the best defender the raps have"

Just because it goes against the general consensus in this forum, doesnt mean its something you simply dismiss. Derozan has infact progressed, improved on the defensive end, so maybe what the OP has to say holds some merit. Dont be so quck to dismiss that simply because it goes against popular beleif..

killersweet
04-11-2014, 03:58 PM
MHC has taken the time to provide evidence, he is giving you hard cold facts, stats & numbers that support his clamins etc. he didnt come on here and simply state "I think derozan is the best defender the raps have"

Just because it goes against the general consensus in this forum, doesnt mean its something you simply dismiss. Derozan has infact progressed, improved on the defensive end, so maybe what the OP has to say holds some merit. Dont be so quck to dismiss that simply because it goes against popular beleif..

I don't think many of us are dismissing it. I think the general thought is that we would need more evidence to reach a firmer conclusion.

nba_4_life
04-11-2014, 03:59 PM
Whats funny is in previous years we had thread topics on the worst defender on the raptor, Bargnani need to be traded, Jose sucks etc. Its good to see post on the positive side for once, not gonna lie, it feels good.

3Blueforyou
04-11-2014, 04:00 PM
Did I ever say that MHC doesn't watch the games and I do and somehow dismissing his post based on eye test? If you are going to quote my response, then at least find the quote where I have said anything like that. My point simply was that it is hard to compare ross and DD simply based on the stats MHC has shown. I strongly believe players who guard the elite players of the league would have skewed defensive numbers. MHC stated that DD is the best defender on the team based on these stats. I am merely stating that we can't really reach that conclusion without seeing some stats which show what % of top level players ross/DD guarded respectively. Unfortunately I couldn't find data that shows that.

My response to which I should of bolded was more so the refuting the evidence given by Mhc and telling him to provide the supporting evidence for your argument. The not watching game comments did come from other posters.


Yeah I can't find those stats anywhere either. I'm sure it exist. Anyone know where we can find these please lead us to it.

I believe this site would provide such information, however it is a pay service if I am not mistaken.

http://www.stats.com/sportvu/sportvu.asp

killersweet
04-11-2014, 04:23 PM
My response to which I should of bolded was more so the refuting the evidence given by Mhc and telling him to provide the supporting evidence for your argument. The not watching game comments did come from other posters.



http://www.stats.com/sportvu/sportvu.asp

I personally don't think any of my posts were critical or dismissive about MHC's notion. I simply stated that the stats he presented didn't really sell me his point. however you response seem to indicate that I some how derailing the constructive talk.

ink
04-11-2014, 05:16 PM
Whats funny is in previous years we had thread topics on the worst defender on the raptor, Bargnani need to be traded, Jose sucks etc. Its good to see post on the positive side for once, not gonna lie, it feels good.

Agreed. I also like the thoroughness MHC brought to the thread, agree or disagree with his conclusion. Always look forward to his thread ideas.

pulzar
04-11-2014, 05:27 PM
I'm not good with adv stats, last 4 games without Amir

Houston 103
Pacers 94 - (not a good offensive team)
Bucks 98
Philly 114

I could go further but basically what I'm saying is Amir is the teams defensive anchor & he cleans up a lot of this teams mistakes/missed rotations. I hope my poor use of stats illustrates his absence.

Like you said further below, stats reads depending on one's point of view. My view is that nobody played any D in Philly game, and the lack of effort on that side was quite obvious. The other three games also featured Vasquez and DeColo in increased roles and no Lowry -- one could attribute weaker D to that, too.

Watching Amir play every game, it's been rare that I've been impressed with his defense. He's been ok, solid in some situations, and fairly weak in one-on-one D. He also frequently bails people out with reaching fouls late in shot clock situations.

I don't think he's bad, but I certainly don't consider him one of our best individual defenders.

Jamiecballer
04-11-2014, 06:22 PM
It's amazing how stats read according to ones point of view.

if you say so. this kind of data IMO is basically useless.

MoneyBall20
04-11-2014, 07:02 PM
DeMar DeRozan; the Raps best Defensive Player?


I'm Noooo...if he was, he would be guarding the best player on other teams,it's always Ross and Salmons.
Demar is alright defender,but not the best defensive player on raptors.


Order Best defender on Raptor Roster:


1.T Ross
2.Amir Johnson
3.Kyle Lowry
4.John Salmons
5.JV
6.Patrick Patterson...then Derozan...

Jamiecballer
04-11-2014, 07:20 PM
DeMar DeRozan; the Raps best Defensive Player?


I'm Noooo...if he was, he would be guarding the best player on other teams,it's always Ross and Salmons.
Demar is alright defender,but not the best defensive player on raptors.


Order Best defender on Raptor Roster:


1.T Ross
2.Amir Johnson
3.Kyle Lowry
4.John Salmons
5.JV
6.Patrick Patterson...then Derozan...

i'd drop Ross down to 3rd... he's the most disruptive defender but he's still got to work on consistency night in night out. and Hayes is downright amazing at his size.

MoneyBall20
04-11-2014, 07:31 PM
i'd drop Ross down to 3rd... he's the most disruptive defender but he's still got to work on consistency night in night out. and Hayes is downright amazing at his size.


Oops I forgot about Hayes..

Freakazoid
04-11-2014, 08:43 PM
if you say so. this kind of data IMO is basically useless.

I think it's useful if there's greater context and regard for how the stat works. If anything, I think it would be quite useful to compare bigs rather than guards because they're harder to hide defensively.

The stat is pretty context dependent kind of like raw +/-. If they adjusted it, I think it would be even better. But the way it's used now, we might as conclude that DeAndre Liggins is better than Lebron because he has a higher PER.

deaner
04-11-2014, 08:47 PM
...

BALLER R
04-11-2014, 10:41 PM
I was at the game and because of this thread I watched from a lot of thing defensively. Demar guarded Melo for about 3 possessions in the 3rd quarter. That was because he ended up on switches. Ross was guarding Melo and so was Salmons. Patterson also guarded him. But Derozan was guarding shump and when Melo came out the came Ross was guarding JR Smith. Derozan was guarding Hardaway.

joshhorvath
04-11-2014, 11:24 PM
DeMar DeRozan; the Raps best Defensive Player?


I'm Noooo...if he was, he would be guarding the best player on other teams,it's always Ross and Salmons.
Demar is alright defender,but not the best defensive player on raptors.


Order Best defender on Raptor Roster:


1.T Ross
2.Amir Johnson
3.Kyle Lowry
4.John Salmons
5.JV
6.Patrick Patterson...then Derozan...

wasnt it just like a couple weeks ago we were talking about JV being a defensive liability to this team and DC shouldnt be putting him out in late game situations.. JV looks like a lame duck on D sometimes, not knowing what he should be doing. id move him to the bottom of your list

douac4
04-12-2014, 11:37 PM
DeMar DeRozan; the Raps best Defensive Player?


I'm Noooo...if he was, he would be guarding the best player on other teams,it's always Ross and Salmons.
Demar is alright defender,but not the best defensive player on raptors.


Order Best defender on Raptor Roster:


1.T Ross
2.Amir Johnson
3.Kyle Lowry
4.John Salmons
5.JV
6.Patrick Patterson...then Derozan...

if coach agreed with this, then how do you explain that demar gets big minutes in the 4th quarter and usually finishes the game on the court?

BALLER R
04-12-2014, 11:58 PM
if coach agreed with this, then how do you explain that demar gets big minutes in the 4th quarter and usually finishes the game on the court?

Cause casey is on Demar's nuts. He will never bench Demar late in a game no matter how bad of a game he is having. Even if Ross is hot Casey will sub him out before he would even think to sub Demar out.

koreancabbage
04-13-2014, 01:09 AM
Cause casey is on Demar's nuts. He will never bench Demar late in a game no matter how bad of a game he is having. Even if Ross is hot Casey will sub him out before he would even think to sub Demar out.

lol only time Ross got some burn 4th quarter was when Demar had to leave because he got injured and Ross scored 51. but thats just an extreme example lol

BALLER R
04-13-2014, 10:23 AM
lol only time Ross got some burn 4th quarter was when Demar had to leave because he got injured and Ross scored 51. but thats just an extreme example lol

lol exactly

B2B
04-13-2014, 10:42 AM
if coach agreed with this, then how do you explain that demar gets big minutes in the 4th quarter and usually finishes the game on the court?

Same reason Bargnani/Gay finished games, same reason Novak plays the 4, not all decisions are defensively based.

B2B
04-13-2014, 10:44 AM
Like you said further below, stats reads depending on one's point of view. My view is that nobody played any D in Philly game, and the lack of effort on that side was quite obvious. The other three games also featured Vasquez and DeColo in increased roles and no Lowry -- one could attribute weaker D to that, too.

Watching Amir play every game, it's been rare that I've been impressed with his defense. He's been ok, solid in some situations, and fairly weak in one-on-one D. He also frequently bails people out with reaching fouls late in shot clock situations.

I don't think he's bad, but I certainly don't consider him one of our best individual defenders.

Sometimes the little things that make a big difference, go unnoticed.

FutureGM
04-13-2014, 11:43 AM
To be fair I haven't read the full thread but my 2 cents...

Just based on the eye test I can remember plenty of times where I thought, "****, Derozan can't stay in front of anyone". Like I distinctly remember him getting blown by, by a lot of faster guards.

In my opinion Ross and Lowry are much better defenders. Ross always has the tougher cover trying to check Bron/Melo/George or any other elite swingman. Which is kind of funny considering Derozan and Ross are the same height with Derozan being a little bulkier due to age. It would make more sense for him to cover the bigger guy but realistically I think Casey puts Ross in those situations because he is the better defender.

BALLER R
04-13-2014, 01:36 PM
To be fair I haven't read the full thread but my 2 cents...

Just based on the eye test I can remember plenty of times where I thought, "****, Derozan can't stay in front of anyone". Like I distinctly remember him getting blown by, by a lot of faster guards.

In my opinion Ross and Lowry are much better defenders. Ross always has the tougher cover trying to check Bron/Melo/George or any other elite swingman. Which is kind of funny considering Derozan and Ross are the same height with Derozan being a little bulkier due to age. It would make more sense for him to cover the bigger guy but realistically I think Casey puts Ross in those situations because he is the better defender.

Perfect. Got right to the point and explained everything perfectly.

ChongInc.
04-14-2014, 06:33 AM
Ross is easily our best perimeter defender and Lowry is up there too for his size. For Derozan to put these numbers up though is very impressive and shows me he's playing his role perfectly.

LanceUpperCut
04-14-2014, 09:30 AM
I think guys like Ross and Lowry have certain qualities that makes them great defensively at times ie. Lowry's charges and steals and Ross's man coverage. But I don't think theirs a smarter defender then Hayes possibly in the NBA, the guys a blob with a 2 inch vertical at 6-6 and completely shuts certain players down some night.

DeMar has been really good all around defensively but since he's not flashy and people just love to pick apart every bad thing that happens to him he gets no love. He's not are best but maybe most improved.

Mile High Champ
04-14-2014, 10:29 AM
I don't think many of us are dismissing it. I think the general thought is that we would need more evidence to reach a firmer conclusion.

I feel as if the the onus is unfailry placed onme to provide more statistics which I am not sure is fair. I have provided some stats to support my claim and I realize there is holes in it just like there is is those simply stating "Ross is better" while providing no hard evidence. I would love to see someonne try to argue against DeRozan outside of the good old "eye test"

Mile High Champ
04-14-2014, 10:32 AM
MHC has taken the time to provide evidence, he is giving you hard cold facts, stats & numbers that support his clamins etc. he didnt come on here and simply state "I think derozan is the best defender the raps have"

Just because it goes against the general consensus in this forum, doesnt mean its something you simply dismiss. Derozan has infact progressed, improved on the defensive end, so maybe what the OP has to say holds some merit. Dont be so quck to dismiss that simply because it goes against popular beleif..

Thank you. I probably brought some of it on myself because of the thread title I used but I thought it would generate the most discussion. I did not feel "Demar's defensive improvement" sold it enough.

As you saied though, I would welcome people to discuss the stats intelligently and not simply revert back to the "eye test" as the baseline. We all watch the games, that much is clear. Where we can further discuss a players worth is through Analytics .

The reason why I really shared this information was to help educate Raps fans on just how good DeRozan has become because I have seen way too many people on here call him an awful defender, which is not true.

Mile High Champ
04-14-2014, 10:35 AM
Cause casey is on Demar's nuts. He will never bench Demar late in a game no matter how bad of a game he is having. Even if Ross is hot Casey will sub him out before he would even think to sub Demar out.

What is with the hate fest for DeMar? It is unbelievable how many Raps fans dislike him and his ability to close. I think he does a great job in the 4th consistently and does pick up his D late in games.

Mile High Champ
04-14-2014, 10:37 AM
I think the biggest thing that has been ignored by many is the reality that Casey does not want to burn DeRozan out. The offense runs through DeMar and he needs to stay fresh. I think it is a big reason for why you see DeMar used on an off guard. It is not becasue he can't gaurd him but Casey would rather save DeMar for the other end of the floor.

killersweet
04-14-2014, 11:14 AM
I feel as if the the onus is unfailry placed onme to provide more statistics which I am not sure is fair. I have provided some stats to support my claim and I realize there is holes in it just like there is is those simply stating "Ross is better" while providing no hard evidence. I would love to see someonne try to argue against DeRozan outside of the good old "eye test"

Well, you started the thread and you pointed out the stats. Personally I am not buying your notion not because of the eye test, but mainly because it is simply not enough. Certain stats are pretty hard to argue against. However the one's you showed have a major hole. If ross is guarding the best of them more than DD, how can we simply say DD is the best defender on the team? Your title didn't say DD is the most improved defender on the team, it says DD is the best defender on the team. That's why I said I wouldn't buy that. Not basing this on simple eye test.

Mile High Champ
04-14-2014, 01:04 PM
Well, you started the thread and you pointed out the stats. Personally I am not buying your notion not because of the eye test, but mainly because it is simply not enough. Certain stats are pretty hard to argue against. However the one's you showed have a major hole. If ross is guarding the best of them more than DD, how can we simply say DD is the best defender on the team? Your title didn't say DD is the most improved defender on the team, it says DD is the best defender on the team. That's why I said I wouldn't buy that. Not basing this on simple eye test.

But you are basing it off of the eye test because you are saying Ross is always covering the better player and your observations are based off of what you have watched. So yes, it is very much the eye test.

BALLER R
04-14-2014, 01:42 PM
What is with the hate fest for DeMar? It is unbelievable how many Raps fans dislike him and his ability to close. I think he does a great job in the 4th consistently and does pick up his D late in games.

lol it's funny because I don't hate him. I said he would one day become an all star from the day we drafted him. It's more it's really good not great. People on here will make him seem great. I'm saying he has really improved but he has his flaws.

Also I say it all the time stats don't tell the whole story. I'm simply saying Demar does not guard stars or elite guards. Ross does. Demar opponent field goal percent is a couple percents lower than Ross. But Ross is guarding the 1st option on teams while demar is guarding 3rd sometimes 4th options.

That stats provided does not account for that. That's where the good old eye test comes in.

Player A guarded by Demar. Player B guarded by Ross.

Player A blows past Demar so Ross has to come over to help out on D. Player A see the help coming so he kicks it out to player B who is wide open. Player B hit the 3.
Player A didn't shoot so his field goal stays intact. Player B's field goal percent is now 100% because he is 1/1.
Player B scored and that the guy Ross was guarding but it happened because player A got by Demar which he shouldn't of been able to.

Who's fault is that?

FutureGM
04-14-2014, 01:53 PM
I think guys like Ross and Lowry have certain qualities that makes them great defensively at times ie. Lowry's charges and steals and Ross's man coverage. But I don't think theirs a smarter defender then Hayes possibly in the NBA, the guys a blob with a 2 inch vertical at 6-6 and completely shuts certain players down some night.

DeMar has been really good all around defensively but since he's not flashy and people just love to pick apart every bad thing that happens to him he gets no love. He's not are best but maybe most improved.

I agree with everything written here. Hayes is extremely underrated. Sure he gives up height but rarely will he allow taller players to get into good position under the rim almost neutralizing their advantage.

Derozan for sure has improved on the defensive end.

North Yorker
04-14-2014, 02:04 PM
I feel as if the the onus is unfailry placed onme to provide more statistics which I am not sure is fair. I have provided some stats to support my claim and I realize there is holes in it just like there is is those simply stating "Ross is better" while providing no hard evidence. I would love to see someonne try to argue against DeRozan outside of the good old "eye test"

The problem is when you say blatant lies like this with your own "eye test":


I also don't buy the argument Ross is always on the other teams best player. This is mostly true with PG's and quick guards like Wall and Curry but bigger guys like Melo, Lebron, George etc often see lots of match up time with DeRozan. If you honestly believe DeRozan is always on the weaker defender, take a look again because it ain't the case.

It's hard to take your post seriously, because anyone who has watched the Raptors this season knows Ross (and Salmons) guards the premier wing player every game (and elite PGs at the end of games), and DeRozan is left to guard guys who are not handling the ball (thus why the iso/PnR/etc. stats you posted are meaningless). When you make a claim like that, the onus is on you to prove it, and you didn't with the stats you posted.

Mile High Champ
04-14-2014, 02:13 PM
The problem is when you say blatant lies like this with your own "eye test":

What?



It's hard to take your post seriously, because anyone who has watched the Raptors this season knows Ross (and Salmons) guards the premier wing player every game (and elite PGs at the end of games), and DeRozan is left to guard guys who are not handling the ball (thus why the iso/PnR/etc. stats you posted are meaningless). When you make a claim like that, the onus is on you to prove it, and you didn't with the stats you posted.

Hard to take me seriously when I actually provided some evidence to support my claim. What evidence did you provide to back up your opinion about Ross? I have yet to see you provide anything to refute anything I have said other than Ross gaurds the best player. Care to contribute more to the conversation?

North Yorker
04-14-2014, 02:35 PM
What?

How else did you come up with the following conclusion other than your personal eye test?


I also don't buy the argument Ross is always on the other teams best player. This is mostly true with PG's and quick guards like Wall and Curry but bigger guys like Melo, Lebron, George etc often see lots of match up time with DeRozan. If you honestly believe DeRozan is always on the weaker defender, take a look again because it ain't the case.

No stat you posted proved that to be true, and most people on here would say that it's false.


Hard to take me seriously when I actually provided some evidence to support my claim. What evidence did you provide to back up your opinion about Ross? I have yet to see you provide anything to refute anything I have said other than Ross gaurds the best player. Care to contribute more to the conversation?

So do you disagree that Ross guards the other team's best player? Because even though you are praising Demar for his "defense" vs Melo/Lebron/George/etc, there is zero evidence to support that. I've shown you already that he doesn't guard George and Lebron, now let's look at our last game vs Melo.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_0CW6HuQ0Y

Yup, Ross and Salmons guarding Melo the entire time.

And if you want some stats to go with the video I've shown you, Ross has been holding opposing SFs to a lower PER than DeRozan this year according to 82 games. So, no, he just doesn't guard the quicker SGs/PGs. He guards the best wing player period. Calling DeRozan our best defender is a slap in the face to the guys on the team that actually guard the other team's best players. If DeRozan was our best defender he'd be guarding the elite players at the end of games at least, but he doesn't.

killersweet
04-14-2014, 03:03 PM
But you are basing it off of the eye test because you are saying Ross is always covering the better player and your observations are based off of what you have watched. So yes, it is very much the eye test.

can you show stats show that DD indeed guards the best players of the other teams? Your stats didn't show that. Your stats were based on how DD performs on guarding opposing players (doesn't differentiate between elite players vs the rest). Based on that you are claiming DD is the best defender on the team. I am saying there is a flaw in that notion. My point is if someone is guarding LBJs and Durants of the world regularly, their numbers aren't gonna look good regardless of how well they play. Until we have a stat that shows DD and Ross's efficiency against top level players, how can we come a solid conclusion that DD is indeed the best defender on the raptors squad?

LanceUpperCut
04-14-2014, 04:02 PM
DeMar also plays 12 mins. more a game then Ross and is the number one option. I still find it amazing and disturbing how hard people try to discredit DD he has all the qualities that are fans love, some just have a hard time changing their agenda from seasons before. I still think Ross is a better defender but Demar plays a lot more minutes and is a much bigger part of the offense, I'm sure if roles were reversed and DD just mainly had to focus on D and jacking three's well playing a lot less he could pick up the defensive intensity a lot more.

ink
04-14-2014, 05:03 PM
DeMar also plays 12 mins. more a game then Ross and is the number one option. I still find it amazing and disturbing how hard people try to discredit DD he has all the qualities that are fans love, some just have a hard time changing their agenda from seasons before. I still think Ross is a better defender but Demar plays a lot more minutes and is a much bigger part of the offense, I'm sure if roles were reversed and DD just mainly had to focus on D and jacking three's well playing a lot less he could pick up the defensive intensity a lot more.

You make some good points there.

I also think what we're seeing is a rarity in DD. He was a project-type pick and it's rare to see picks like that work so damn hard and improve so much. He's going against often-reinforced views that a player like this can't turn himself into a bonafide star. I think what he's done so far is amazing as he's developed and improved most of his weaknesses to the point where he can even be seriously considered as the best defender, for example.

I think those that say that he's not "the best" are missing the bigger point that his numbers are becoming extraordinary in so many ways. He still has some distance to go but let's not get caught up in semantics and miss the general intention of the thread, which is to give credit to a player that is willing himself to a level that few thought he'd ever reach.

smith&wesson
04-14-2014, 05:06 PM
How else did you come up with the following conclusion other than your personal eye test?



No stat you posted proved that to be true, and most people on here would say that it's false.



So do you disagree that Ross guards the other team's best player? Because even though you are praising Demar for his "defense" vs Melo/Lebron/George/etc, there is zero evidence to support that. I've shown you already that he doesn't guard George and Lebron, now let's look at our last game vs Melo.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_0CW6HuQ0Y

Yup, Ross and Salmons guarding Melo the entire time.

And if you want some stats to go with the video I've shown you, Ross has been holding opposing SFs to a lower PER than DeRozan this year according to 82 games. So, no, he just doesn't guard the quicker SGs/PGs. He guards the best wing player period. Calling DeRozan our best defender is a slap in the face to the guys on the team that actually guard the other team's best players. If DeRozan was our best defender he'd be guarding the elite players at the end of games at least, but he doesn't.

North Yorker, MHC has provided stats to support his claim. Why don't you provide some to support yours?

it seems youre debating in a very combative style, yet there isnt much substance to what youre saying. until you support youre own claims, all they are is opinions and if thats the case then you should just agree to disagree :shrug:

just saying. be fair...

ink
04-14-2014, 05:10 PM
North Yorker, MHC has provided stats to support his claim. Why don't you provide some to support yours?

it seems youre debating in a very combative style, yet there isnt much substance to what youre saying. ntil you support youre own claims, all they are is opinions and if thats the case then you should just agree to disagree :shrug:

just saying. be fair...

Thanks S&W, I agree.

Personally I see this as a sort of myth-buster thread about DD and it's a welcome addition to the forum. People don't have to fully agree to appreciate that the stats MHC has provided do challenge a lot of our assumptions about DeMar's effectiveness on D.

Let's not get hung up literally on who's "the best".

Jamiecballer
04-14-2014, 05:21 PM
Well you know ink how you feel that you need to respond to B2Bs posts because you feel he is falsely misrepresenting things and believe it should not go unchallenged?

I imagine that is what compels others to do the same here.

smith&wesson
04-14-2014, 05:25 PM
Thanks S&W, I agree.

Sometimes, in this forum we get caught up with putting labels on players. Simply put, the idea that Derozan is a poor defender has become a popular beleif. When a thread like this comes out and suggests the opposite, posters tend to disagree because it goes against the general conensus.

I dont agree that Derozan is our best defender, but after taking a closer look I could agree that he has really made strides in improvement on the defensive end. this thread shed some light on that for me because I admit I wasnt paying very close attention to Derozans perimiter D.

ink
04-14-2014, 05:33 PM
Well you know ink how you feel that you need to respond to B2Bs posts because you feel he is falsely misrepresenting things and believe it should not go unchallenged?

I imagine that is what compels others to do the same here.

I respect that opinion and disagree. I also ask that we don't pull this thread off topic. It's about DeRozan, so let's stick to that.

ink
04-14-2014, 05:34 PM
Sometimes, in this forum we get caught up with putting labels on players. Simply put, the idea that Derozan is a poor defender has become a popular beleif. When a thread like this comes out and suggests the opposite, posters tend to disagree because it goes against the general conensus.

I dont agree that Derozan is our best defender, but after taking a closer look I could agree that he has really made strides in improvement on the defensive end. this thread shed some light on that for me because I admit I wasnt paying very close attention to Derozans perimiter D.

Same here.

ink
04-14-2014, 05:38 PM
can you show stats show that DD indeed guards the best players of the other teams? Your stats didn't show that. Your stats were based on how DD performs on guarding opposing players (doesn't differentiate between elite players vs the rest). Based on that you are claiming DD is the best defender on the team. I am saying there is a flaw in that notion. My point is if someone is guarding LBJs and Durants of the world regularly, their numbers aren't gonna look good regardless of how well they play. Until we have a stat that shows DD and Ross's efficiency against top level players, how can we come a solid conclusion that DD is indeed the best defender on the raptors squad?

Even if he doesn't turn out to be the best defender on the team for the reasons you and others give, do you see how this thread opened eyes about DD's vast improvement? MHC acknowledged the holes others found but no one countered the other 95% of his stats which were very revealing. He made a clear, coherent case and it made me think a bit about my assumptions about DeRozan.

LanceUpperCut
04-14-2014, 05:41 PM
Sometimes, in this forum we get caught up with putting labels on players. Simply put, the idea that Derozan is a poor defender has become a popular beleif. When a thread like this comes out and suggests the opposite, posters tend to disagree because it goes against the general conensus.

I dont agree that Derozan is our best defender, but after taking a closer look I could agree that he has really made strides in improvement on the defensive end. this thread shed some light on that for me because I admit I wasnt paying very close attention to Derozans perimiter D.

True, just like people constantly talk as if Demar has horrible handles and turns the ball over all the time yet his turnovers rate for starters is among the best for PG/SG/SF and how he's soft yet is 3rd in the NBA at getting to the line for PG/SG/SF.

smith&wesson
04-14-2014, 05:44 PM
Thanks S&W, I agree.

Personally I see this as a sort of myth-buster thread about DD and it's a welcome addition to the forum. People don't have to fully agree to appreciate that the stats MHC has provided do challenge a lot of our assumptions about DeMar's effectiveness on D.Let's not get hung up literally on who's "the best".

exactly, its a total myth buster. That could have saved me a few paragraphs in my previous post, but thats exactly what it was for me.. an eye opener to that aspect of DD's game.

killersweet
04-14-2014, 05:45 PM
Sometimes, in this forum we get caught up with putting labels on players. Simply put, the idea that Derozan is a poor defender has become a popular beleif. When a thread like this comes out and suggests the opposite, posters tend to disagree because it goes against the general conensus.

I dont agree that Derozan is our best defender, but after taking a closer look I could agree that he has really made strides in improvement on the defensive end. this thread shed some light on that for me because I admit I wasnt paying very close attention to Derozans perimiter D.

I don't think the problem is about DD being a poor defender. I think most of the people here are on board with DD being one of the most improved players on the team in all aspects of the game. The issue is around labeling him to be the best defender on the team. I am going to move on from this as until some stats that I am looking for are going to come available, we are going to go in circles about this. I agree with MHC's point about DD being a very good defender on the team. I don't agree with him being the best on the raptors squad. On the side note, I am very happy with DD and Ross's defensive developments. Both are our players and it can only be a good thing.

smith&wesson
04-14-2014, 05:54 PM
I don't think the problem is about DD being a poor defender. I think most of the people here are on board with DD being one of the most improved players on the team in all aspects of the game. The issue is around labeling him to be the best defender on the team. I am going to move on from this as until some stats that I am looking for are going to come available, we are going to go in circles about this. I agree with MHC's point about DD being a very good defender on the team. I don't agree with him being the best on the raptors squad. On the side note, I am very happy with DD and Ross's defensive developments. Both are our players and it can only be a good thing.

and thats fair. in all honesty though, whenever the topic of derozan's improvements are talked about its usually focused on his offensive game. for alot of posters, this thread did shed some light on the defensive aspect of dero's game which we can all agree has really improved. sort of a myth buster as ink put it.

I agree with you that Dero is not the best defender on the team, but at the same token he doesnt suck nearly as bad as I thought he did. I think he is right up there with the rest of the first unit which are all pretty good defenders.

Again some credit has to go to casey here because if you think about it, when was the last time the raptors had a starting 5 whom all were better than average defenders at their respective positions ?

North Yorker
04-14-2014, 06:01 PM
North Yorker, MHC has provided stats to support his claim. Why don't you provide some to support yours?

it seems youre debating in a very combative style, yet there isnt much substance to what youre saying. until you support youre own claims, all they are is opinions and if thats the case then you should just agree to disagree :shrug:

just saying. be fair...

I'm pointing out the flaws and hypocrisy in his conclusions. He says the stats say he is the best defender, and you can't simply go off the eye test, but he himself uses the eye test to reinforce his claim.

He is saying Demar often guards the other team's best wing player (often bigger SFs), but has shown absolutely nothing to support this, because it's simply not true. There's plenty of videos out there on youtube showing it. There's plenty of articles backing it up:
http://probballreport.com/toronto-raptors-terrence-ross-is-blossoming-on-defense/
http://www.torontosun.com/2014/02/22/terrence-ross-is-becoming-raptors-best-defender
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/terrence-ross-continues-grow-defender-161000938--nba.html


He lists off a bunch of stats saying why he is our best defender, but fails to mention that we give up more points/100 possessions with him ON the court vs to when he's off. He's never guarding the best player on the other team in any late game situation. Again I'll go back to what I said earlier:


If you want to crown DeRozan as an elite defender when he doesn't guard elite players, then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

These stats need context. Without it they don't show the difference between guarding a Lebron and guarding a James Jones.

ink
04-14-2014, 06:06 PM
I'm pointing out the flaws and hypocrisy in his conclusions. He says the stats say he is the best defender, and you can't simply go off the eye test, but he himself uses the eye test to reinforce his claim.

He is saying Demar often guards the other team's best wing player (often bigger SFs), but has shown absolutely nothing to support this, because it's simply not true. There's plenty of videos out there on youtube showing it. There's plenty of articles backing it up:
http://probballreport.com/toronto-raptors-terrence-ross-is-blossoming-on-defense/
http://www.torontosun.com/2014/02/22/terrence-ross-is-becoming-raptors-best-defender
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/terrence-ross-continues-grow-defender-161000938--nba.html

He lists off a bunch of stats saying why he is our best defender, but fails to mention that we give up more points/100 possessions with him ON the court vs to when he's off. He's never guarding the best player on the other team in any late game situation. Again I'll go back to what I said earlier:

These stats need context. Without it they don't show the difference between guarding a Lebron and guarding a James Jones.

Isn't hypocrisy a bit strong? Were you the one who accused him of lying earlier? It's kind of over the top to attack a guy for a thorough thread even if you feel you exposed a flaw.

What's wrong with just countering his claim with facts and no personal remarks? I mean it's not like he posts about DeMar's defence day and night.

ink
04-14-2014, 06:09 PM
and thats fair. in all honesty though, whenever the topic of derozan's improvements are talked about its usually focused on his offensive game. for alot of posters, this thread did shed some light on the defensive aspect of dero's game which we can all agree has really improved. sort of a myth buster as ink put it.

I agree with you that Dero is not the best defender on the team, but at the same token he doesnt suck nearly as bad as I thought he did. I think he is right up there with the rest of the first unit which are all pretty good defenders.

Again some credit has to go to casey here because if you think about it, when was the last time the raptors had a starting 5 whom all were better than average defenders at their respective positions ?

The fact that DeMar has gone from a weak defender to a strong defender is an indicator of potential for this team. I thought that was the point of going with this roster. I'm willing to hear about the improvements, especially when someone goes to the trouble of building some evidence for people's consideration.

North Yorker
04-14-2014, 06:27 PM
Isn't hypocrisy a bit strong? Were you the one who accused him of lying earlier? It's kind of over the top to attack a guy for a thorough thread even if you feel you exposed a flaw.

What's wrong with just countering his claim with facts and no personal remarks? I mean it's not like he posts about DeMar's defence day and night.

If you/MHC think I crossed the line then I apologize, but I call things like I see them. I expect nothing less when other posters read my posts.

ink
04-14-2014, 06:33 PM
If you/MHC think I crossed the line then I apologize, but I call things like I see them. I expect nothing less when other posters read my posts.

Thanks man, I just think he did some good research here.

smith&wesson
04-14-2014, 06:53 PM
I'm pointing out the flaws and hypocrisy in his conclusions. He says the stats say he is the best defender, and you can't simply go off the eye test, but he himself uses the eye test to reinforce his claim.

He is saying Demar often guards the other team's best wing player (often bigger SFs), but has shown absolutely nothing to support this, because it's simply not true. There's plenty of videos out there on youtube showing it. There's plenty of articles backing it up:
http://probballreport.com/toronto-raptors-terrence-ross-is-blossoming-on-defense/
http://www.torontosun.com/2014/02/22/terrence-ross-is-becoming-raptors-best-defender
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/terrence-ross-continues-grow-defender-161000938--nba.html


He lists off a bunch of stats saying why he is our best defender, but fails to mention that we give up more points/100 possessions with him ON the court vs to when he's off. He's never guarding the best player on the other team in any late game situation. Again I'll go back to what I said earlier:



These stats need context. Without it they don't show the difference between guarding a Lebron and guarding a James Jones.

no need for apologies, I just think theres two sides to the coin and you guys both could have taken something out of the discussion if you expressed your view point in a a rational debate rather than an arguement. You both make good pionts..

koreancabbage
04-14-2014, 10:27 PM
i've been a naysayer of Derozan for years now. Him and Ross are interchangeable pieces and compliment each other at the same time. I think his help defense is his weakest game and he does play against the lesser wing players for a good portion in the games i have watched.

But he's improved alot and i've been waiting for him to prove me wrong since day 1. This is the first year i'm blown away by his consistency and growth. Are there holes in his game? yes, but he's still young and a couple of years from entering his prime. consistent on his rise, adding something to his game every year, and being consistent during the season for the most part. I'm liking what I see in this team but the PG/SG/SF positions have been solved.

I'm now on the wait and see with JV as he is a big man and Raps tend to play away from him when he can become their greatest weapon and REALLY diversify away from the play of the wing players.