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View Full Version : Have we undervalued Dirk over the years? Where did Cuban go wrong with him and Nash?



Chronz
04-10-2014, 05:29 PM
With Dirk moving up the Scoring Ranks, I've been thinking about the career the man has had, both on the court and with how hes been perceived. Was the whole "soft" label really justified? Could he and Nash, eventually, have won a title? Were they the best duo to never do so? Why do some people question Dirk's MVP season?


I feel like people underrate those early Mavs teams, that if not for some unfortunate decisions/events, could have won it all. But people look back on them as if something was fundamentally flawed with the pairing of Dirk/Nash. That you could not win it all if those 2 were your pillars. I think Cuban messed up a good thing when he brought in Antoine Walker, a guy that hurts just about every team hes ever joined. That Dirk eventually won, helped shed doubt, but seems like some feel he only recently developed that will to win. It somewhat cheapens the legacy he should be leaving the NBA, as one of its best big game performers.

What do you guys think of how Dirk has fared vs his peers over the years? KG, Duncan, Malone, C-Webb, Amare. This guy has gone h2h against the best to ever play the PF position and has more than held his own in the playoffs.

NoahH
04-10-2014, 05:35 PM
Dirk has no doubt been underrated throughout his career. You never hear him spoken in the same sentence as Kobe, LBJ, Melo etc, but his stats speak for themselves. The dude is a beast.

As far as winning a ring. I think a core of Nash-Dirk could have won a ring, but they never had the right pieces around them to make a legit run.

TheMightyHumph
04-10-2014, 05:50 PM
Dirk is tougher now than earlier in his career, but Nash or no, Dirk needed a Tyson Chandler at full strength to get a ring.

JEDean89
04-10-2014, 05:59 PM
cuban said that they didn't think nash's knee was gonna hold up so they didn't sign him to a new contract but that they obviously regretted it majorly.

tredigs
04-10-2014, 05:59 PM
The Finals MVP upped his perceived legacy quite a bit, but Dirk's a bonafide great and largely under-appreciated due to living in the shadow of more ESPN friendly players like Kobe, AI, etc. If they were an Eastern Conference team he'd have a stronger personal legacy, but losing to GS in round 1 with the leagues best record was a solid shot to his legacy at the time (in reality it was just a terrible matchup for them and one that a lot of GS fans saw coming based on their success against them that year).

Easily one of my favorite players and personalities of all time though. Dirk's the man.

Ebbs
04-10-2014, 06:00 PM
Dirk has the best playoff numbers of basically everyone listed at the power-forward position lol.

Guppyfighter
04-10-2014, 06:11 PM
Dirk has no doubt been underrated throughout his career. You never hear him spoken in the same sentence as Kobe, LBJ, Melo etc, but his stats speak for themselves. The dude is a beast.

As far as winning a ring. I think a core of Nash-Dirk could have won a ring, but they never had the right pieces around them to make a legit run.

Well, he is obviously better than Melo so I am not sure what kind of people you are talking to.

JasonJohnHorn
04-10-2014, 06:18 PM
Dirk is a GREAT shooter... the only forward I would consider a better shooter is Bird. That said, he isn't a great rebound and he isn't a stellar defender.

Cuban knew with Dirk's 'soft' style (I'm not sure I agree with 'soft'), he knew he'd need a bruiser in the paint, which is why he overpaid for so many $#!TTY centers.

He let Nash and Finely go to sign big men because he knew he needed to. And he was right about that, he just picked the wrong guys. Once he got Chandler, he was set, but then he let Chandler go? WTF?!?!


Finley, Nash and Dirk would have won multiple rings if they'd had Prince and Ben Wallace at SF and C. But big men that can defend and rebound are expensive, and with Fin, Nash and Dirk making what they deserved to make, it was hard to afford that C they needed.

I think Dirk is ranked about where he should be. He's not as good as Garnett or Duncan, but he' better than everybody else at the power forward position, at least among his generation (Love, Griffin and Davis are the PFs of the future).

Among all players, he's ranked at about the right spot: below Kobe Shaq, and LBJ, and ahead of other guys.

Greet
04-10-2014, 06:22 PM
Dirk is a GREAT shooter... the only forward I would consider a better shooter is Bird. That said, he isn't a great rebound and he isn't a stellar defender.


Never understood the notion of him being a bad rebounder.... Only recently has his rebounding #s dropped, he averaged around 8-9 rpg over his career, with a few being 9.9, 9.8, 9.7, etc.

hugepatsfan
04-10-2014, 06:26 PM
I think he gets undervalued in part because as good as he is he's only the 3rd best player at his position from his own era to the vast majority of people. He kind of gets overshadowed.

Chronz
04-10-2014, 06:27 PM
Never understood the notion of him being a bad rebounder.... Only recently has his rebounding #s dropped, he averaged around 8-9 rpg over his career, with a few being 9.9, 9.8, 9.7, etc.

Aside from that, I feel like he doesn't get enough credit for his rebounding come playoff time. But yea, his rebounding is underrated overall, he shouldn't need to amass high OFFENSIVE rebounds because he plays so much on the perimeter, opening driving lanes/options for his teammates, and is still so efficient regardless. If you want to critique his Defensive rebounding, then I think hes still a very good rebounder on that end.

kobe4thewinbang
04-10-2014, 06:35 PM
I think it's clear that Dallas didn't quite know what it was doing at the time when Nash left the team. They were paying $50 million to the likes of Antoine Walker and Antawn Jamison. Cuban was reluctant to sign Nash, since he wanted to build around Dirk (who is a great player, with a beautiful shot) and reasonably so. Nash went to the Suns.

If you replace Jason Kidd with Steve Nash during the championship season, I think Dallas still wins the title. In retrospect, Dallas might've won more titles or done better in the playoffs had Nash stuck around (whereas Jamison, Finley, and Walker fizzled out) which would've been better than Nash playing amazing but winning zilch with the Suns.

Cuban probably regrets losing Nash, but that's just how it goes.

KnicksorBust
04-10-2014, 06:54 PM
Dirk is one of the few players that I believe is properly rated.

kobe4thewinbang
04-10-2014, 07:01 PM
Dirk is one of the few players that I believe is properly rated.I agree. Now if he played like he did in the Finals on a more regular basis, he could be in the MVP race.

tredigs
04-10-2014, 07:27 PM
I agree. Now if he played like he did in the Finals on a more regular basis, he could be in the MVP race.

? He's been top 10 in the MVP race many times, including a few top 3's and an actual MVP...

Or are you talking about this season pushing 36 years old?

Chronz
04-10-2014, 07:42 PM
Rick Carlisle is making the case for Top-12 All-Time. I think Top-20, maybe as high as Top-15 is the highest I'd go.

Kaner
04-10-2014, 08:38 PM
Rick Carlisle is making the case for Top-12 All-Time. I think Top-20, maybe as high as Top-15 is the highest I'd go.

My knee-jerk reaction was no way but when I went to list 12 players that were definitively better I got stuck on 11

in no order
1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Wilt
4. Russel
5. Magic
6. Bird
7. Duncan
8. Kobe
9. Shaq
10. Lebron
11. Hakeem

Anyone other than those 11 he has a good case against for better career imo.

Chronz
04-10-2014, 08:42 PM
My knee-jerk reaction was no way but when I went to list 12 players that were definitively better I got stuck on 11

in no order
1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Wilt
4. Russel
5. Magic
6. Bird
7. Duncan
8. Kobe
9. Shaq
10. Lebron
11. Hakeem

Anyone other than those 11 he has a good case against for better career imo.
We have a very similar list but I have Bron at 11 or 12, the other toss up being Moses Malone. After that, its wide open IMO. Even looking at Moses, Dirk is arguably on par resume wise.

beyourself
04-10-2014, 08:42 PM
Dirk gets overlooked because Duncan is a 2 way player and has a lot more floor impact.

When somebody plays your position in the same conference and is better that happens.

If Jordan played in Kobe's era on a Western Conference team then the same thing would happen.

kobe4thewinbang
04-10-2014, 08:51 PM
? He's been top 10 in the MVP race many times, including a few top 3's and an actual MVP...

Or are you talking about this season pushing 36 years old?Well, I suppose I wasn't being literal. I didn't know he had won MVP. What I meant was I think he is underrated by a lot of people because he doesn't quite step up for his team on a strong enough basis like he did in the Finals where I felt he took his game to a new level and Miami couldn't stop him. If his shots aren't falling, he doesn't really have that drive to do something else. It's hard to put into words what I mean, but I still see it with how he plays today.

Hulk6
04-10-2014, 09:00 PM
My knee-jerk reaction was no way but when I went to list 12 players that were definitively better I got stuck on 11

in no order
1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Wilt
4. Russel
5. Magic
6. Bird
7. Duncan
8. Kobe
9. Shaq
10. Lebron
11. Hakeem

Anyone other than those 11 he has a good case against for better career imo.

Kobe out of the top 5 is disrespectful but thats a discussion for another time.

I agree with Dirks placement however, top 12-15 is a pretty fair rating.

SeoulBeatz
04-10-2014, 09:13 PM
With Dirk moving up the Scoring Ranks, I've been thinking about the career the man has had, both on the court and with how hes been perceived. Was the whole "soft" label really justified?

Nope. I never thought of Dirk as a soft player. He excels at playing to his strengths.

Cal827
04-10-2014, 09:19 PM
Dirk and Nash= Defensive Holes lol

Hawkeye15
04-10-2014, 09:30 PM
If Cuban had retained Nash, I have no doubt they could have won a title together. Nash was obviously tailor made for Mike D's system, but he was already outstanding in Dallas.

Hawkeye15
04-10-2014, 09:31 PM
Kobe out of the top 5 is disrespectful but thats a discussion for another time.

I agree with Dirks placement however, top 12-15 is a pretty fair rating.

no, its not. He is top 10, but not a top 5 player ever.

Kaner
04-10-2014, 09:43 PM
We have a very similar list but I have Bron at 11 or 12, the other toss up being Moses Malone. After that, its wide open IMO. Even looking at Moses, Dirk is arguably on par resume wise.

:laugh2: I actually didn't really think about the order much when listing the names it was just the order I thought of the players. But checking again that is my list except I have Kobe and Shaq switched and Russell and Magic interchangeable. Am expecting within 2 years Lebron will be knocking Russell or Magic outta my top 5 so I guess am a little higher on him then some.

kobe4thewinbang
04-10-2014, 09:43 PM
no, its not. He is top 10, but not a top 5 player ever.Yeah, I mean, top rankings depends on such subjectivity. That's why I never really bother with it.

DallasTrilla23
04-10-2014, 09:49 PM
Dirk gets overlooked because Duncan is a 2 way player and has a lot more floor impact.

When somebody plays your position in the same conference and is better that happens.

If Jordan played in Kobe's era on a Western Conference team then the same thing would happen.

Clyde Drexler

Kaner
04-10-2014, 09:51 PM
Dirk and Nash= Defensive Holes lol

Nash yes, but I always thought Dirks defensive woes were very overblown. His teams have been in the top 10 defensively for most of his career and he has always been at least an average defender.

Hawkeye15
04-10-2014, 11:58 PM
Yeah, I mean, top rankings depends on such subjectivity. That's why I never really bother with it.

sure but can you really make a case for Kobe top 5?

Top 8-11, for sure.

Jeffy25
04-11-2014, 12:07 AM
Not many 7 footers out there can shoot 88% from the free throw line (leading the NBA this year in percentage) and 38% from three pointer

Maybe a little soft, but he shoots like he's a guard and boards like he's a SF/PF combo.

I think he's near, or at least close, to a top 10 player of all time, at least top 15, no worse than 20th.

Kobe fans won't like hearing it, but statistically, he compares crazy well to Kobe

PER
DK - 23.48 (18th all time)
KB - 23.36 (19th all time)

WS
DK - 184.36 (9th all time)
KB - 172.97 (14th all time)



To the point about Nash, well Nash left DK was just starting to entire his prime, and then he got Kidd for the last part of his prime any way (and a title).

Bruno
04-11-2014, 01:53 AM
i think Dirk will have a great argument for top 15 all time when its all said and done. what he did in 2011 was special and of legend.

rick is on record saying dirk is top 12. i think thats a bit generous, but not off by much.

Bruno
04-11-2014, 01:57 AM
Kobe out of the top 5 is disrespectful but thats a discussion for another time.

I agree with Dirks placement however, top 12-15 is a pretty fair rating.

i don't think so i think arguing Kobe top five is an uphill battle at best. depending on your criteria I don't think you can put Kobe any higher than 5th and I don't think you can put him any lower than 10th.

i take Kobe over magic and bird though, i'll tell you that. ...magic and bird aren't top five either imo. MJ, Wilt, KAJ are the clear cut 1-3 in my book. put wilt and KAJ in any order you please.

kobe4thewinbang
04-11-2014, 10:20 PM
sure but can you really make a case for Kobe top 5?

Top 8-11, for sure.Like I said, I'd have no business even trying to make my own criteria for top players. Kobe is great, but I think I know what you mean. He's a bonafide scorer, but he's not excellent in other areas. Questionable leadership, is a "ball hog", defense isn't notably impressive that I can recall, and not the highest basketball IQ (i.e. he takes terrible shots).

ILLUSIONIST^248
04-11-2014, 10:31 PM
Rick Carlisle is making the case for Top-12 All-Time. I think Top-20, maybe as high as Top-15 is the highest I'd go.
One of the rare times I agree with you 100 percent, he's one if the most underrated players ever.

Hellcrooner
04-11-2014, 10:53 PM
no he is absurdedly overated.

he had 15 years of title worhty companion and he made only one finals and won one and only because the heat made the choke of the century.

Is he top 35-40 ever? absolutely.

but there are peopel talkin top 20 wich is blasphemous.

WVNowitzki
04-11-2014, 11:30 PM
no he is absurdedly overated.

he had 15 years of title worhty companion and he made only one finals and won one and only because the heat made the choke of the century.

Is he top 35-40 ever? absolutely.

but there are peopel talkin top 20 wich is blasphemous.

Well this post is chalk full of inaccurate statements.

Why is there always a need to say so and so is the best over so and so? I don't care what subjective ranking of players he falls under to people, he is one of the best to ever play the game, period.

gatkins11
04-12-2014, 01:43 AM
no he is absurdedly overated.

he had 15 years of title worhty companion and he made only one finals and won one and only because the heat made the choke of the century.

Is he top 35-40 ever? absolutely.

but there are peopel talkin top 20 wich is blasphemous.

Who exactly are these "title worthy" companions?

FlashBolt
04-12-2014, 03:23 AM
He's top 20 but that's as high he can possibly go tbh. He's a top 5 pf and I would actually put him as the fourth greatest behind Barkley, KG, and Duncan. Close one with Malone but I have to give it to Dirk because he is more versatile with the ability to destroy anyone using his shooting prowess and height advantage. I must say, he is truly underrated. When you talk about elite players, he's usually the 10-20th player that comes up. Definitely top 20 all time but top 12 is absurd. There is no way Dirk is ahead of KG.

Hawkeye15
04-12-2014, 07:24 AM
no he is absurdedly overated.

he had 15 years of title worhty companion and he made only one finals and won one and only because the heat made the choke of the century.

Is he top 35-40 ever? absolutely.

but there are peopel talkin top 20 wich is blasphemous.

better than Gasol :)

JiffyMix88
04-12-2014, 08:09 AM
Nash yes, but I always thought Dirks defensive woes were very overblown. His teams have been in the top 10 defensively for most of his career and he has always been at least an average defender.

I agree especially in 08'-present when he started becoming more physical(boxing out, not shying away from contact like other years)

Hellcrooner
04-12-2014, 08:16 AM
better than Gasol :)


we are talking bout Dirk here.

Hellcrooner
04-12-2014, 08:17 AM
He's top 20 but that's as high he can possibly go tbh. He's a top 5 pf and I would actually put him as the fourth greatest behind Barkley, KG, and Duncan. Close one with Malone but I have to give it to Dirk because he is more versatile with the ability to destroy anyone using his shooting prowess and height advantage. I must say, he is truly underrated. When you talk about elite players, he's usually the 10-20th player that comes up. Definitely top 20 all time but top 12 is absurd. There is no way Dirk is ahead of KG.

better tan malone...


:facepalm:

id say it again, insanely overated.

JeremiahWing
04-12-2014, 02:19 PM
Alpha dog on a title team that beat LeBron James' Heat: a vastly underrated quality.

JeremiahWing
04-12-2014, 02:21 PM
Not many 7 footers out there can shoot 88% from the free throw line (leading the NBA this year in percentage) and 38% from three pointer

Maybe a little soft, but he shoots like he's a guard and boards like he's a SF/PF combo.

I think he's near, or at least close, to a top 10 player of all time, at least top 15, no worse than 20th.

Kobe fans won't like hearing it, but statistically, he compares crazy well to Kobe

PER
DK - 23.48 (18th all time)
KB - 23.36 (19th all time)

WS
DK - 184.36 (9th all time)
KB - 172.97 (14th all time)



To the point about Nash, well Nash left DK was just starting to entire his prime, and then he got Kidd for the last part of his prime any way (and a title).

Stats-only in basketball is brain dead. Talk the sport. It's an intriguing game. I think you'd like it.

Kobe??? Top 10??? Dude, seriously, you're making a fool of yourself.

Tony_Starks
04-12-2014, 05:18 PM
I'm in the minority but I have him over KG on my list. Impact on the game, pure shooting, longevity....had he been in the East he'd probably have a few more rings.

No shame in getting beat by the likes of players like prime Timmy, C Webb....etc. the west was no joke!

Jeffy25
04-12-2014, 05:26 PM
Stats-only in basketball is brain dead. Talk the sport. It's an intriguing game. I think you'd like it.

Kobe??? Top 10??? Dude, seriously, you're making a fool of yourself.

Remember that post that the bulls fan made in the last thread?

I think it applies here.

JeremiahWing
04-12-2014, 05:57 PM
Remember that post that the bulls fan made in the last thread?

I think it applies here.

Dirk is top 10 or 15? In the same echelon as Kobe? Seriously?

This is why your approach is terrible. You can't be serious with this. And I love Dirk. One of my all-time faves. But you can't have him as a top 10 all time player. You simply reveal yourself to know nothing at that point but arithmetic.

D-Leethal
04-12-2014, 06:46 PM
I think the soft label was a product of choking away a 2-0 lead in the Finals, followed by getting embarrassed by the outspoken, showboating, flashy 8 seed Warriors as a 1 seed with the leagues best record, followed by a horrible 5 game *** whooping by the Hornets where he got *****slapped by David West in a game and didn't do **** about it. He continued to struggle a couple years and was gaining a Melo type rep of a guy who can't get deep in the playoffs consistently but he put in the work and eventually broke through.

Taking out the "Big 3" as a solo superstar led team, months after they proclaimed they were gonna win 7 championships and "it was gonna be easy", thats pure badass, thats the type of **** that will erase any soft label. I also think an underrated aspect of his career is just how durable he has been over the years. 13 out of 16 seasons with 70+ GP for a flatfooted, goofy 7 footer is unbelievable.

D-Leethal
04-12-2014, 06:48 PM
Stats-only in basketball is brain dead. Talk the sport. It's an intriguing game. I think you'd like it.

Yerp. The game is more intriguing, complex, and dynamic than stats will ever be able to account for. The over-reliance on stats is dumbing the discussion down more than it is progressing it.

Miltstar
04-12-2014, 07:22 PM
Just curious what this is based on. There is no doubt in my mind that Kevin Durant is a better basketball player than Dirk ever was, but no one is putting him in the top ten. Sure he has no rings, but who's to say LeBron would if he didnt sell out...

ILLUSIONIST^248
04-12-2014, 07:28 PM
:laugh: crooner

JeremiahWing
04-12-2014, 08:08 PM
Yerp. The game is more intriguing, complex, and dynamic than stats will ever be able to account for. The over-reliance on stats is dumbing the discussion down more than it is progressing it.

It will only get worse. That nonsense needs to be called out.

JeremiahWing
04-12-2014, 08:24 PM
Just curious what this is based on. There is no doubt in my mind that Kevin Durant is a better basketball player than Dirk ever was, but no one is putting him in the top ten. Sure he has no rings, but who's to say LeBron would if he didnt sell out...

It's based on statistics out-of-context, which is why it makes no sense.

abe_froman
04-12-2014, 08:24 PM
Dirk is top 10 or 15? In the same echelon as Kobe? Seriously?


you can put him top 15(anywhere in the teens is reasonable),by any standard he has an argument for it...and while i have him behind kobe,he isnt that far behind.

JeremiahWing
04-12-2014, 08:26 PM
I think the soft label was a product of choking away a 2-0 lead in the Finals, followed by getting embarrassed by the outspoken, showboating, flashy 8 seed Warriors as a 1 seed with the leagues best record, followed by a horrible 5 game *** whooping by the Hornets where he got *****slapped by David West in a game and didn't do **** about it. He continued to struggle a couple years and was gaining a Melo type rep of a guy who can't get deep in the playoffs consistently but he put in the work and eventually broke through.

Taking out the "Big 3" as a solo superstar led team, months after they proclaimed they were gonna win 7 championships and "it was gonna be easy", thats pure badass, thats the type of **** that will erase any soft label. I also think an underrated aspect of his career is just how durable he has been over the years. 13 out of 16 seasons with 70+ GP for a flatfooted, goofy 7 footer is unbelievable.

That season was legacy cementing.

JeremiahWing
04-12-2014, 08:28 PM
you can put him top 15(anywhere in the teens is reasonable),by any standard he has an argument for it...and while i have him behind kobe,he isnt that far behind.

Mind if I see the names you'd have in front of him?

Guppyfighter
04-12-2014, 09:29 PM
Yerp. The game is more intriguing, complex, and dynamic than stats will ever be able to account for. The over-reliance on stats is dumbing the discussion down more than it is progressing it.

Basketball is not as complicated as you make it sound.

Guppyfighter
04-12-2014, 09:30 PM
Kobe and Dirk are basically equivalents to eachother.

Kaner
04-12-2014, 11:19 PM
Just curious what this is based on. There is no doubt in my mind that Kevin Durant is a better basketball player than Dirk ever was, but no one is putting him in the top ten. Sure he has no rings, but who's to say LeBron would if he didnt sell out...

So? There is no doubt in my mind that Tracy Mcgrady was a better basketball player than Dirk, or Kobe ever were yet not many people are itching to put him in their top tens either. Historical rankings are about careers not peaks and so far Durant hasn't accomplished squat in his career to warrant putting him in the top 10 or 20. I.E. MVPS, Championships, Finals MVPs, and other career milestones and accomplishments that Dirk has accumulated over his career.



Lebron probably wouldn't be on many top 10 lists if he didn't win 2 championships so that's a mute point.

Tony_Starks
04-12-2014, 11:59 PM
Kobe and Dirk are basically equivalents to eachother.

Not even Dirk would agree with that ridiculous statement. They're not even in the same conversation on SO many levels starting with defense, all time records, scoring, and a little thing called championships....

ricky recon
04-13-2014, 12:52 AM
no he is absurdedly overated.

he had 15 years of title worhty companion and he made only one finals and won one and only because the heat made the choke of the century.

Is he top 35-40 ever? absolutely.

but there are peopel talkin top 20 wich is blasphemous.

This is completely inaccurate in more than one way.

ricky recon
04-13-2014, 01:00 AM
Just curious what this is based on. There is no doubt in my mind that Kevin Durant is a better basketball player than Dirk ever was, but no one is putting him in the top ten. Sure he has no rings, but who's to say LeBron would if he didnt sell out...

When is the last time Kevin Durant took a team with no other all stars to beat a team with three including the "best player in the world" in a 7 game series for an NBA championship?

Bruno
04-13-2014, 12:00 PM
better than Gasol :)

by a comfortable margin.

Jeffy25
04-13-2014, 12:58 PM
Just curious what this is based on. There is no doubt in my mind that Kevin Durant is a better basketball player than Dirk ever was, but no one is putting him in the top ten. Sure he has no rings, but who's to say LeBron would if he didnt sell out...
Because durant is still only 25. Gonna have to play awhile to get there.

Jeffy25
04-13-2014, 01:10 PM
It's based on statistics out-of-context, which is why it makes no sense.

Why are they out of context?

A players efficiency and win shares for his career compared to another player is 'out of context'?

How and why

JeremiahWing
04-13-2014, 01:23 PM
Why are they out of context?

A players efficiency and win shares for his career compared to another player is 'out of context'?

How and why

Is Dirk in front of or behind KG? If you had to put him at an all-time rank now, where would you put him?

JeremiahWing
04-13-2014, 01:25 PM
And please, God, don't just spew numbers in your answer. Talk about the game. It will be a great exercise for you. Let's see if reason makes you back off the Dirk is top 10 nonsense that should have you laughed off this forum instantly.

waveycrockett
04-13-2014, 01:32 PM
If Dirk and Nash had stayed together they would each have at least another 2 rings and got rid of Don Nelson who is a garbage head coach.

JeremiahWing
04-13-2014, 01:45 PM
And when it comes to the out-of-context numbers, we will get there, I promise. I just want to know your position fully first. Where do you have Dirk in an all-time rank? 10? 11?

waveycrockett
04-13-2014, 01:48 PM
The only current players in the top-10 all time are Kobe, Duncan and LeBron. Dirk is more top-20/25

JeremiahWing
04-13-2014, 02:00 PM
The only current players in the top-10 all time are Kobe, Duncan and LeBron. Dirk is more top-20/25

Jeffy has him on par with Kobe and knocking on the door of top ten. I can't wait to see exactly what his list would be, who is behind and ahead of him.

DetroitBadBoy
04-13-2014, 02:51 PM
I will be the first to admit that before he won his championship, I had always said that he would never win one. I have a whole new appreciation for him now though. One of the true Euro hidden gems discovered.

Tony_Starks
04-13-2014, 05:48 PM
The only current players in the top-10 all time are Kobe, Duncan and LeBron. Dirk is more top-20/25

Minus Lebron and you're right. Lebron isn't cracking my top 10 until the resume is better. 2 chips to go along with 3 chokes doesn't cut it for me. Especially with one of the chokes on a super team with no excuses to lose.

He's got a ways to go....

DetroitBadBoy
04-13-2014, 06:48 PM
Minus Lebron and you're right. Lebron isn't cracking my top 10 until the resume is better. 2 chips to go along with 3 chokes doesn't cut it for me. Especially with one of the chokes on a super team with no excuses to lose.

He's got a ways to go....

3 chokes? Why not just give the other team credit for winning? His first "choke" on this super team was against Dirk (the topic of the thread) and an overall great team in the Mavs. Another one was against the super team of the Spurs.

tr3ymill3r
04-13-2014, 07:20 PM
He averages more rebounds than a center that is 7'2"

ricky recon
04-13-2014, 07:52 PM
Is Dirk in front of or behind KG? If you had to put him at an all-time rank now, where would you put him?

In front. Probably right there with Malone.

As far as numbers go, he's got a greater WS/48, PER, TS%, eFG% in his career. He's about 4WS behind Garnett which is actually pretty ridiculous when you consider Garnett has played three years longer.


And please, God, don't just spew numbers in your answer. Talk about the game. It will be a great exercise for you. Let's see if reason makes you back off the Dirk is top 10 nonsense that should have you laughed off this forum instantly.

Dirk is someone you can give the ball, and he will score. He's been for the vast majority of his career an elite halfcourt offensive player. He's unguardable, he can score in more ways than Garnett.

He has taken a team without an all star to win an NBA championship, and had one of the greatest playoff runs ever. He was without question the MVP of the finals, and that entire postseason. He's also taken a team with Josh Howard as the second best player to the finals, and has a 67 win season.

His numbers are a lot better in the playoffs. He dominates in the playoffs. Kevin Garnett has roughly the same numbers. He does not dominate the playoffs.

(I know I said no numbers, but to give you an idea): Dirk has played in 128 playoff games as of today. Garnett has played in 131 games. Dirk has 22.5 WS to Garnett's 15.8.

In the end of the day, a player who can be one of the top defenders definitely increases your value to a team. However, a player as dominant in the halfcourt offensive set as Dirk is invaluable to a team, and when he's on, which he usually is in the playoffs, is unguardable by players like Garnett. So that point is pretty much moot. Elite defense is great, but elite offense comes at a premium. Guys like Thabo Sefolosha aren't paid max contracts for a reason.

flea
04-13-2014, 08:12 PM
The thread title has me dreaming of that Suns roster with Dirk on it. Nash, Bell, Marion, Dirk, Hill, Stat, Barbosa, and Diaw? That's a hell of a fun team to watch. Dirk and Nash prime pick & pop would be the most unstoppable play in the league.

Chronz
04-14-2014, 12:47 AM
Minus Lebron and you're right. Lebron isn't cracking my top 10 until the resume is better. 2 chips to go along with 3 chokes doesn't cut it for me. Especially with one of the chokes on a super team with no excuses to lose.

He's got a ways to go....

Just curious, would him losing to the superior team in Detroit be better than "choking" in the Finals vs the Spurs? This assuming thats 1 of the 3 chokes, not sure which you are referring to.

JeremiahWing
04-14-2014, 01:31 AM
This is NOT a thread about LeBron James. For Christsakes, give it a rest you people...

Chronz
04-14-2014, 01:40 AM
This is NOT a thread about LeBron James. For Christsakes, give it a rest you people...

Rank Dirk then.

JeremiahWing
04-14-2014, 01:42 AM
Haha I will... but I'm waiting. I gotta hear this.

AnthonyTyrael2
04-14-2014, 09:20 AM
dp

AnthonyTyrael2
04-14-2014, 09:30 AM
Compared to all others in any top 10, 20, 30 or 50...

Consider where he's coming from. He's not only a foreign born player, he is a foreigner. Would never count Timmy or Nique as one.

In the opposite to guys like Hakeem, he also did not play any highschool or college basketball. Among all those top whatever players, how many of them had such a worse first season as he had it?

What I'm trying to say is, it's been a little more difficult for him than it was for most others player in those all time lists. His chance to get there where he has gotten career wise, was pretty low, wasn't it?

LeBron, Jordan, KAJ, Magic, Shaq and all those guys were gifted and blessed with outstanding altheticism and talent and only the sky was their limit from day one when they stepped into this league, whilst he was just another foreign kid who could barely walk on court (little exxagerated here).

JeremiahWing
04-14-2014, 02:31 PM
Open question to everyone: Who do you have in front of Dirk on an all-time rank list?

Lakers + Giants
04-14-2014, 03:41 PM
Open question to everyone: Who do you have in front of Dirk on an all-time rank list?

MJ
KAJ
Wilt
Magic
Shaq
Russell
Duncan
Kobe
Hakeem
Bird
Robinson
Baylor
West
Karl Malone
Moses Malone
Garnett
Oscar
Dr. J
Lebron
Barkley

then Dirk

AnthonyTyrael2
04-14-2014, 04:59 PM
How many players in total have played in 68 years? So wherever he ends up, he's better than most.

Jeffy25
04-14-2014, 05:25 PM
And please, God, don't just spew numbers in your answer. Talk about the game. It will be a great exercise for you. Let's see if reason makes you back off the Dirk is top 10 nonsense that should have you laughed off this forum instantly.

Was gone all weekend, back now and caught back up, that's why it's a delayed response.


You don't have to spew numbers, but you want to talk rankings, and then you ignore the measurable side of the game? How else do you intend to be able to evaluate players and their legacies? What is it that matters to a players legacy? How can we compare them to others? What, Dirk was a good shooter, but how do we know how good of a shooter he was? Was he weak defensively? Well how are we supposed to know?


Am I supposed to say Dirk was great because of his style of play? Because of how he 'led'?

You are so hell-bent focused on the intangibles, that you keep piping up in these threads screaming about them, that you seem to forget that no matter how much you despise numbers, their value and place is vital to the understanding of the game, players legacies, and what is accomplished. What can be accomplished has to be measured.

We don't care about the intangibles unless they actually show up in the final goal of the sport....the W. Does anything else actually matter? Get the wins. And some players are better at contributing to those wins than others, even on bad teams or great teams.


Evaluations don't need to be purely statistical, but you better have some good evidence if you intend to disprove the measurables.

Tell me, why is Kobe a higher ranked player than Dirk? Without using a single number, literally no numbers. Can you prove to me that Kobe is greater all time than Dirk? I know that you can't. Which is why you need to knock this ridiculous crap off. You do it in all three forums, you blindly scream how statistics are awful, and how they are constantly used out of context (they weren't here for example). Just because some statistics can't measure every single aspect of the game, doesn't dismiss their value or worth. Just because it doesn't measure things like leadership doesn't make them bad. And it doesn't mean anything if it doesn't equate to more wins, either individually or for a team.


Here are some fun facts though.


Dirk completely shines in the playoffs, he has his entire career. He has taken awful teams deep into the playoffs. He is basically impossible to defend, and he rebounds better than people realize. Just because he isn't throwing up 12 boards a game doesn't make him a bad rebounder. He just isn't a board crasher, he is more of a perimeter set player. He is also, possibly, one of the easiest players in the game to build a team around. Partially because of the rarity of his skill set, but also because of his ability to execute at a very high level. Players with Kobe's skill sets come along all the time, most of them don't get to the point of executing them like he does, and he has great longevity, which is why he is an all-time great. But high volume shooting guards are a dime a dozen. But having a 7 foot PF that you can put weak players around and still be a 60 win team is never seen in the game.

As for how does Dirk compare to KG? They are pretty close to each other, but it's hard to tell. KG's value came in a different fashion. He was a much better defensive player who could pass and did things a little differently than Dirk, and was a better rebounder. But they just played differently.



Also, just a fun fact. Kobe averaged 25 points per game in his career on 19.5 shots per game, Dirk has averaged 22 points per game, on three less shots per game, and this goes along with his three more boards. Sure Kobe has better defensive numbers, and a few more assists, but the idea that these two aren't close is pretty silly. They are obviously very close to one another in all time rankings, and they should be. Hell, Dirk could very well end up scoring more all time than Kobe, it's def not out of the question.


The right words for this response are when MassDio said this in the Lebron thread to you

There are lot's of times though, that you can look at some stats, and be pretty sure that what they are saying don't need any more explanation, or in depth discovery of knowledge. Basketball isn't as complicated as you want to make it. Sorry, but it isn't. It isn't as easy to statistically break down as baseball, on that you are correct. But 9 times out of 10, the things you are asking for are not necessary to answer the questions that are debated. And most certainly not with the top level players of the game.

Jeffy25
04-14-2014, 05:43 PM
Haha I will... but I'm waiting. I gotta hear this.

Why do you have to wait to make your post?


You want others to do a ranking so you can (I assume) try to laugh at it because of how ridiculous you view it, but you won't do the same thing you are demanding?


And when it comes to the out-of-context numbers, we will get there, I promise. I just want to know your position fully first. Where do you have Dirk in an all-time rank? 10? 11?

My rankings?


1. Jordan
2. Wilt
3. Kareem/Shaq share it
5. Duncan
6. Robinson
7. Barkley
8. Magic
9. Malone
10. Hakeem

Gotta remember, we are talking about longevity along with productivity.


Lebron is quickly moving in. Dirk, Kobe, Garnett, Miller, Bird, Parish, Robertson etc are in the next 10.....each ahead of 20th


Each of those first ten can be interchanged a bit with basically the exception of Jordan. The rankings don't have to be hard rankings.

Lakers + Giants
04-14-2014, 07:41 PM
I personally think Parish and Miller are in the 40-50 range.

slashsnake
04-15-2014, 12:45 AM
Good point on Dirk in the post-season. He plays EXCELLENT there. He is doing something not Garnett, Not Shaq, Wilt, Bird, Barkley, Karl Malone or Moses Malone, not even Kareem ever did...

Just Pettit, Elgin Baylor, Olajuwon, and Nowitzki are the guys who averaged 25-10 in the post-season.

You put up how Kobe outscores Dirk by about 3 a game. When the playoffs start, Dirk outscores Kobe. That to me is impressive.

KnicksorBust
04-15-2014, 12:54 AM
Open question to everyone: Who do you have in front of Dirk on an all-time rank list?

Jordan
Kareem
Kobe
Magic
Russell
Duncan
Bird
Wilt
Lebron
Shaq
Hakeem
Moses
Oscar
Baylor
KG
Cousy
Karl Malone
Barkley
Dywane Wade

He is borderline top 20.

Kaner
04-15-2014, 01:12 AM
Good point on Dirk in the post-season. He plays EXCELLENT there. He is doing something not Garnett, Not Shaq, Wilt, Bird, Barkley, Karl Malone or Moses Malone, not even Kareem ever did...

Just Pettit, Elgin Baylor, Olajuwon, and Nowitzki are the guys who averaged 25-10 in the post-season.

You put up how Kobe outscores Dirk by about 3 a game. When the playoffs start, Dirk outscores Kobe. That to me is impressive.

Yeah very underrated aspect of his career, very few guys up their game as much as dirk does in the playoffs. People mentioning Malone, Barkley, Garnett, Robinson, and Kobe all as easily better than Dirk but his playoff numbers are alot better than theirs.

Chronz
04-15-2014, 10:17 AM
Open question to everyone: Who do you have in front of Dirk on an all-time rank list?


Jordan
Oscar
Baylor
KG
Cousy
Karl Malone
Barkley
Dywane Wade

Definitely in this class

ricky recon
04-15-2014, 10:25 AM
Jordan
Kareem
Kobe
Magic
Russell
Duncan
Bird
Wilt
Lebron
Shaq
Hakeem
Moses
Oscar
Baylor
KG
Cousy
Karl Malone
Barkley
Dywane Wade

He is borderline top 20.

Bob Cousy my ***.

KnicksorBust
04-15-2014, 10:36 AM
Definitely in this class

I'm assuming Jordan was an accident?

KnicksorBust
04-15-2014, 10:40 AM
Bob Cousy my ***.

In terms of career legacy Cousy has him crushed.

Cousy
6 NBA champion (1957, 1959-1963)
NBA Most Valuable Player (1957)
10 All-NBA First Team (19521961)
2 All-NBA Second Team (1962, 1963)
8 NBA Assists leader (1953-1960)

Dirk
NBA champion (2011)
NBA Most Valuable Player (2007)
4 All-NBA First Team (20052007, 2009)
5 All-NBA Second Team (20022003, 2008, 20102011)
3 All-NBA Third Team (2001, 2004, 2012)

Cousy won more and dominated his position significantly more than Dirk ever did.

mngopher35
04-15-2014, 10:51 AM
In terms of career legacy Cousy has him crushed.

Cousy
6 NBA champion (1957, 1959-1963)
NBA Most Valuable Player (1957)
10 All-NBA First Team (19521961)
2 All-NBA Second Team (1962, 1963)
8 NBA Assists leader (1953-1960)

Dirk
NBA champion (2011)
NBA Most Valuable Player (2007)
4 All-NBA First Team (20052007, 2009)
5 All-NBA Second Team (20022003, 2008, 20102011)
3 All-NBA Third Team (2001, 2004, 2012)

Cousy won more and dominated his position significantly more than Dirk ever did.

Not as the leader of a team and the team kept winning after he was gone. Also the second part has more to do with Dirk going vs. a top 10 and top 20 player all time throughout his career at PF (Duncan, KG).

Jeffy25
04-15-2014, 02:47 PM
In terms of career legacy Cousy has him crushed.

Cousy
6 NBA champion (1957, 1959-1963)
NBA Most Valuable Player (1957)
10 All-NBA First Team (19521961)
2 All-NBA Second Team (1962, 1963)
8 NBA Assists leader (1953-1960)

Dirk
NBA champion (2011)
NBA Most Valuable Player (2007)
4 All-NBA First Team (20052007, 2009)
5 All-NBA Second Team (20022003, 2008, 20102011)
3 All-NBA Third Team (2001, 2004, 2012)

Cousy won more and dominated his position significantly more than Dirk ever did.

Well, you had Kobe third all time, that can't be right, was it?

And accolades only tell you so much.


Just looking at regular season numbers:
PER
Dirk: 18th - 23.47
Cousy: 67th - 19.76

WIN Shares
Dirk: 9th - 184.60
Cousy: 94th - 91.11



you give Cousy credit for six rings, but he wasn't the best player on any of those teams, Russell was on each one, and on many of them, Cousy fell down to the 4th our 5th best player because he was in his decline.

Not exactly fair to give Cousy credit for them when they are really Russell's rings in my opinion. MAYBE Cousy can have the 57 ring, but he wasn't exactly that much better than multiple team mates that year.


And really, ten time all NBA first team?

There were only 40 starters in the entire league lol....That would be the same thing as being a top 19 player today. (top 5 out of 40 starters, vs 19 out of 150 starters today)

Chronz
04-15-2014, 04:13 PM
I'm assuming Jordan was an accident?

Yes it was, can I assume listing Cousy was a joke? Hes not even on the level of a Jason Kidd, much less Dirk. That he was a pioneer doesn't mean hes immortalized ahead of clearly superior players who have the misfortune of playing in the modern/advanced league.

KnicksorBust
04-15-2014, 08:58 PM
Yes it was, can I assume listing Cousy was a joke? Hes not even on the level of a Jason Kidd, much less Dirk. That he was a pioneer doesn't mean hes immortalized ahead of clearly superior players who have the misfortune of playing in the modern/advanced league.


Well, you had Kobe third all time, that can't be right, was it?

And accolades only tell you so much.


Just looking at regular season numbers:
PER
Dirk: 18th - 23.47
Cousy: 67th - 19.76

WIN Shares
Dirk: 9th - 184.60
Cousy: 94th - 91.11



you give Cousy credit for six rings, but he wasn't the best player on any of those teams, Russell was on each one, and on many of them, Cousy fell down to the 4th our 5th best player because he was in his decline.

Not exactly fair to give Cousy credit for them when they are really Russell's rings in my opinion. MAYBE Cousy can have the 57 ring, but he wasn't exactly that much better than multiple team mates that year.


And really, ten time all NBA first team?

There were only 40 starters in the entire league lol....That would be the same thing as being a top 19 player today. (top 5 out of 40 starters, vs 19 out of 150 starters today)

How do you rate players from that era? Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, Oscar Robertson, Elgin Baylor, Bob Cousy.

KnicksorBust
04-15-2014, 09:04 PM
you give Cousy credit for six rings, but he wasn't the best player on any of those teams, Russell was on each one, and on many of them, Cousy fell down to the 4th our 5th best player because he was in his decline.

Not exactly fair to give Cousy credit for them when they are really Russell's rings in my opinion. MAYBE Cousy can have the 57 ring, but he wasn't exactly that much better than multiple team mates that year.


I have to pin-point this post. "not exactly fair to give Cousy credit for them when they are really Russell's rings." It's posts like this that drive me crazy. One player wins a ring every year? That's absurdity. So by your estimation... Pippen has 0? Cousy deserves every bit of credit for all 6 of those titles and the fact that he babe ruth'd his peers in assists and was one of the top scorers in the league as well proves his value. It doesn't matter to me how he would play in the NBA now, his legacy is cemented in history.

Chronz
04-15-2014, 09:19 PM
How do you rate players from that era? Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, Oscar Robertson, Elgin Baylor, Bob Cousy.

Highly. Except for Cousy and to some degree, Baylor, who I have lower on my totem pole than most lists I've seen. Guy had half a career of legendary play, 25% of what remains was impressive All-Star level considering his injury was considered career threatening during his time, but he gets docked for his damn near cancerous play towards the end of his career, when he hurt his teams championship chances.

Chronz
04-15-2014, 09:26 PM
I have to pin-point this post. "not exactly fair to give Cousy credit for them when they are really Russell's rings." It's posts like this that drive me crazy. One player wins a ring every year? That's absurdity. So by your estimation... Pippen has 0? Cousy deserves every bit of credit for all 6 of those titles and the fact that he babe ruth'd his peers in assists and was one of the top scorers in the league as well proves his value. It doesn't matter to me how he would play in the NBA now, his legacy is cemented in history.

You know exactly what he means, lots of Celtics got rings during those days, doesn't make them all the best, it makes their union the best. Not sure what you mean by full credit, Steve Kerr technically deserves full credit for his rings too, not sure of the validity of that statement.

KnicksorBust
04-15-2014, 09:30 PM
You know exactly what he means, lots of Celtics got rings during those days, doesn't make them all the best, it makes their union the best. Not sure what you mean by full credit, Steve Kerr technically deserves full credit for his rings too, not sure of the validity of that statement.

I'm more than willing to have a discussion about the level of contributions toward championships but the guy flat out said "they are really Russell's rings." I'm not putting words in anyone's mouth there.

KnicksorBust
04-15-2014, 09:31 PM
Highly. Except for Cousy and to some degree, Baylor, who I have lower on my totem pole than most lists I've seen. Guy had half a career of legendary play, 25% of what remains was impressive All-Star level considering his injury was considered career threatening during his time, but he gets docked for his damn near cancerous play towards the end of his career, when he hurt his teams championship chances.

Cousy's assist totals were as impressive as Wilt's scoring totals.

ricky recon
04-15-2014, 10:09 PM
In terms of career legacy Cousy has him crushed.

Cousy
6 NBA champion (1957, 1959-1963)
NBA Most Valuable Player (1957)
10 All-NBA First Team (19521961)
2 All-NBA Second Team (1962, 1963)
8 NBA Assists leader (1953-1960)

Dirk
NBA champion (2011)
NBA Most Valuable Player (2007)
4 All-NBA First Team (20052007, 2009)
5 All-NBA Second Team (20022003, 2008, 20102011)
3 All-NBA Third Team (2001, 2004, 2012)

Cousy won more and dominated his position significantly more than Dirk ever did.

My ***.

Cousy won his first championship only when HOF Bill Russell arrived. 6 years before that? Didn't make it to the finals.

He played with Bill Russell, Bill Sharman, Tom Heinsohn, K.C. Jones, Frank Ramsey, and Sam Jones. That's 6 other hall of fame players in their prime. He never led any of their championship teams in win shares.

What happened when he left the team? They still won 5 more championships.

Bob Cousy is not even on the same planet as Dirk. Dirk carried a team that probably wouldn't have made the playoffs without him over a Miami Heat with one of the greatest players of all time in LeBron James, sidekicked by Wade and Bosh, who have won the last two championships by the way.

Cousy's legacy is a great PG who was part of the greatest dynasty in NBA history but was never the best player and never made it to the finals without Russell. That team was just as dominant when he left and ended up winning 5 championships.

Dirk's legacy is a top 10 scorer of all time with a finals win over LeBron James and co. He's been the MVP in a league with 30 teams as apposed to 8 teams.

When Dirk retires, the Mavs will rebuild and the city of Dallas will witness arguably the greatest athlete retire in the city's history. Cousy retired, and the C's won 5 more championships. Like I said, he couldn't make it to the finals with 8 teams in the league before Russell. Bob Cousy couldn't hold Dirk's jock strap.

Like Jeffy said, Dirk has more than double the career win shares. It's honestly offensive you would suggest something so ridiculous.

NBA_Starter
04-15-2014, 10:13 PM
Cuban got the best out of the Dirk / Nash combo in my opinion.

KnicksorBust
04-15-2014, 10:29 PM
My ***.

Cousy won his first championship only when HOF Bill Russell arrived. 6 years before that? Didn't make it to the finals.

He played with Bill Russell, Bill Sharman, Tom Heinsohn, K.C. Jones, Frank Ramsey, and Sam Jones. That's 6 other hall of fame players in their prime. He never led any of their championship teams in win shares.

What happened when he left the team? They still won 5 more championships.

Bob Cousy is not even on the same planet as Dirk. Dirk carried a team that probably wouldn't have made the playoffs without him over a Miami Heat with one of the greatest players of all time in LeBron James, sidekicked by Wade and Bosh, who have won the last two championships by the way.

Cousy's legacy is a great PG who was part of the greatest dynasty in NBA history but was never the best player and never made it to the finals without Russell. That team was just as dominant when he left and ended up winning 5 championships.

Dirk's legacy is a top 10 scorer of all time with a finals win over LeBron James and co. He's been the MVP in a league with 30 teams as apposed to 8 teams.

When Dirk retires, the Mavs will rebuild and the city of Dallas will witness arguably the greatest athlete retire in the city's history. Cousy retired, and the C's won 5 more championships. Like I said, he couldn't make it to the finals with 8 teams in the league before Russell. Bob Cousy couldn't hold Dirk's jock strap.

Like Jeffy said, Dirk has more than double the career win shares. It's honestly offensive you would suggest something so ridiculous.

So you give Cousy credit for 0 championships? Being one of the best players on a dynasty holds no value ? What about the fact that he dominated the assist category to almost unseen levels? He was the best PG in the NBA for a decade straight.

I'm aware there were less teams but there still has to be a level of success that supersedes that difference and most people seem to act like anything pre 1980 is insignificant.

Chronz
04-15-2014, 10:32 PM
Cousy's assist totals were as impressive as Wilt's scoring totals.

Agreed, just a shame about the rest of their games.

Chronz
04-15-2014, 10:39 PM
I'm more than willing to have a discussion about the level of contributions toward championships but the guy flat out said "they are really Russell's rings." I'm not putting words in anyone's mouth there.

Its a spiteful way of breaking it down, much like Kobe's "Shaq rings", the generalization is insulting, but you know what they are getting at. Hollow as it may be, he has a point. Rings are team accomplishments, players should be mostly judged by their individual level of play.

3RDASYSTEM
04-15-2014, 10:55 PM
Cousy's assist totals were as impressive as Wilt's scoring totals.

i find that quite comical at worst, simply because had RED landed WILT as he had tried to strongly then WILT would have challenged COUSY for assists and still put up his usual 30ppg to probably around 13-15rpg with RUSSELL there being the glass eater he was, to put it simply if COUSY avg between 17-18apg for 5yr stretch then it is as impressive as the big dippers scoring avg

but its no where near close, WILT was avg 30ppg in like his 10th season after avg like 50ppg his 2nd or 3rd season, unreal

3RDASYSTEM
04-15-2014, 11:01 PM
So you give Cousy credit for 0 championships? Being one of the best players on a dynasty holds no value ? What about the fact that he dominated the assist category to almost unseen levels? He was the best PG in the NBA for a decade straight.

I'm aware there were less teams but there still has to be a level of success that supersedes that difference and most people seem to act like anything pre 1980 is insignificant.

COUSY was who he was with or without the rings, appreciate you for mentioning that....now if COUSY led C's to a finals trip pre RUSSELL then he is on that level, if not then he Is not in my bball book, you cant be dominant in a 8 team league and not a finals trip, at least 1x, and you said he was dominant for yrs prior to RUSSELL, I mean at least the logo went to 9 trips before winning with old man WILT, was COUSY on WEST level?

3RDASYSTEM
04-15-2014, 11:15 PM
My ***.

Cousy won his first championship only when HOF Bill Russell arrived. 6 years before that? Didn't make it to the finals.

He played with Bill Russell, Bill Sharman, Tom Heinsohn, K.C. Jones, Frank Ramsey, and Sam Jones. That's 6 other hall of fame players in their prime. He never led any of their championship teams in win shares.

What happened when he left the team? They still won 5 more championships.

Bob Cousy is not even on the same planet as Dirk. Dirk carried a team that probably wouldn't have made the playoffs without him over a Miami Heat with one of the greatest players of all time in LeBron James, sidekicked by Wade and Bosh, who have won the last two championships by the way.

Cousy's legacy is a great PG who was part of the greatest dynasty in NBA history but was never the best player and never made it to the finals without Russell. That team was just as dominant when he left and ended up winning 5 championships.

Dirk's legacy is a top 10 scorer of all time with a finals win over LeBron James and co. He's been the MVP in a league with 30 teams as apposed to 8 teams.

When Dirk retires, the Mavs will rebuild and the city of Dallas will witness arguably the greatest athlete retire in the city's history. Cousy retired, and the C's won 5 more championships. Like I said, he couldn't make it to the finals with 8 teams in the league before Russell. Bob Cousy couldn't hold Dirk's jock strap.

Like Jeffy said, Dirk has more than double the career win shares. It's honestly offensive you would suggest something so ridiculous.

this is what I mean by weaker era, DIRK couldn't carry a more talented team to a title in 06' but in the young youth weaker era he could do it against a rigged BRON/series

BRON was literally going in the other direction that TERRY was putting the ball on the floor....purely rigged when you see the body language of 11' vs 12' finals, night and day

DIRK has had 65+ win teams and didn't reach finals, and I want to say went out first rd on a stacked 1st seed so that also carries as much weight as his 'carrying 11' squad''..plus they choked off finals 06' with better talent and him a yr away from nba mvp, 7footer with a flame/toughness/clutch is how I will remember DIRK, and also not being drafted by PHI to team up with AI in 98' draft, then he would have had more finals trips for sure

DIRK is the southern version of bean Bryant, CUBAN laced him with talent yr in and out for decade plus and got 2 finals out of it, nice deal for most part but I expected more if he is as highly ranked as you have him and it has nothing to do with WIN SHARES, not a damn thing

this is why I know how to rank players game, because to me he didn't choke in 06' or fall off since he won nba mvp following yr and he didn't get ranked up higher because he carried offensively the team in 11', he was always the same player, rather choker or carrier....nothing more nothing less

sometimes you get it done and sometimes you don't, ask the GOAT of psd, JORDAN who won 6 rings in like 15 seasons, but if you bought all the super duper hype you would sware JORDAN won 13 out of 15yrs, or all 15yrs for that hypeful matter

3RDASYSTEM
04-15-2014, 11:31 PM
Its a spiteful way of breaking it down, much like Kobe's "Shaq rings", the generalization is insulting, but you know what they are getting at. Hollow as it may be, he has a point. Rings are team accomplishments, players should be mostly judged by their individual level of play.

Just change your 'mostly' to 'only' and you have finally reached that level of knowing how to rank the 'individual' player properly, I knew sooner or later the basics would come to light, the individual players game/impact that is aka games actually watched aka game tape, not espn highlights

bean Bryant is the only superstar sidekick in nba history, he said it himself to feel he was tired of being a sidekick, plus he was starting in allstar game while backin up JONES, he is indeed the only superstar sidekick in nba his story, hands down i'l give him that in a cakewalk.... la market is tremendous, could he pull that off in DEN/UTAH market? to be kind...no, but he would still be the JORDAN wannabe volume shooter that he is and was from day 1

gatkins11
04-15-2014, 11:55 PM
this is what I mean by weaker era, DIRK couldn't carry a more talented team to a title in 06' but in the young youth weaker era he could do it against a rigged BRON/series

BRON was literally going in the other direction that TERRY was putting the ball on the floor....purely rigged when you see the body language of 11' vs 12' finals, night and day

DIRK has had 65+ win teams and didn't reach finals, and I want to say went out first rd on a stacked 1st seed so that also carries as much weight as his 'carrying 11' squad''..plus they choked off finals 06' with better talent and him a yr away from nba mvp, 7footer with a flame/toughness/clutch is how I will remember DIRK, and also not being drafted by PHI to team up with AI in 98' draft, then he would have had more finals trips for sure

DIRK is the southern version of bean Bryant, CUBAN laced him with talent yr in and out for decade plus and got 2 finals out of it, nice deal for most part but I expected more if he is as highly ranked as you have him and it has nothing to do with WIN SHARES, not a damn thing

this is why I know how to rank players game, because to me he didn't choke in 06' or fall off since he won nba mvp following yr and he didn't get ranked up higher because he carried offensively the team in 11', he was always the same player, rather choker or carrier....nothing more nothing less

sometimes you get it done and sometimes you don't, ask the GOAT of psd, JORDAN who won 6 rings in like 15 seasons, but if you bought all the super duper hype you would sware JORDAN won 13 out of 15yrs, or all 15yrs for that hypeful matter

You think the 2011 Finals were rigged? What about 2006? Nobody could have carried that team to a championship with Wade being sent to the line more than the entire Mavs team. As far as 2007 goes, GSW was just a terrible matchup for the entire team. For all we know, Dallas potentially could have run any other team out of the gym that year, but we'll never know for sure.

Chronz
04-15-2014, 11:56 PM
Just change your 'mostly' to 'only' and you have finally reached that level of knowing how to rank the 'individual' player properly, I knew sooner or later the basics would come to light, the individual players game/impact that is aka games actually watched aka game tape, not espn highlights

bean Bryant is the only superstar sidekick in nba history, he said it himself to feel he was tired of being a sidekick, plus he was starting in allstar game while backin up JONES, he is indeed the only superstar sidekick in nba his story, hands down i'l give him that in a cakewalk.... la market is tremendous, could he pull that off in DEN/UTAH market? to be kind...no, but he would still be the JORDAN wannabe volume shooter that he is and was from day 1

Winning matters, so its not only 1 thing.

slashsnake
04-16-2014, 12:32 AM
Cousy's assist totals were as impressive as Wilt's scoring totals.

I am sorry but while he was an AMAZING passer, he wasn't Oscar. Oscar had what? 3000 more career assists and averaged 2 or so more a game. And who else was there while cousy was winning his rings (also playing with a dominant player) where their careers overlapped? Mr Guy Rodgers.. aka Bob cousy without a team to get him a pile of titles. The guy who finished his career with more assists per game and only 40 or so fewer assists total.

He was Wilt if Wilt's numbers only stood the test of time while he played and in the final 1/3 of his career he was getting passed by already. He wasn't Wilts scoring totals, he was Mikan's scoring totals with Wilt coming even sooner on his heels.

slashsnake
04-16-2014, 12:47 AM
You think the 2011 Finals were rigged? What about 2006? Nobody could have carried that team to a championship with Wade being sent to the line more than the entire Mavs team. As far as 2007 goes, GSW was just a terrible matchup for the entire team. For all we know, Dallas potentially could have run any other team out of the gym that year, but we'll never know for sure.

I think if I was running the Hack a Shaq defense, missing out on free throw disparity would be a given. If Shaq is shooting 30% from the line against me in a series, you can bet that team will shoot more free throws. I would make absolutely sure of it.

I don't remember seeing many bad calls heavily favoring either team there. Sure a LOT more were on Miami. But while Wade was streaking to the hoop drawing contact every single play Dirk was hitting his fadeaway jumper.

It just seems odd that when you face up teams and in those games you see a team predominantly living off its jump shot and another attacking the basket, people seem surprised when there is a free throw disparity.

ricky recon
04-16-2014, 01:00 AM
this is what I mean by weaker era, DIRK couldn't carry a more talented team to a title in 06' but in the young youth weaker era he could do it against a rigged BRON/series

BRON was literally going in the other direction that TERRY was putting the ball on the floor....purely rigged when you see the body language of 11' vs 12' finals, night and day

DIRK has had 65+ win teams and didn't reach finals, and I want to say went out first rd on a stacked 1st seed so that also carries as much weight as his 'carrying 11' squad''..plus they choked off finals 06' with better talent and him a yr away from nba mvp, 7footer with a flame/toughness/clutch is how I will remember DIRK, and also not being drafted by PHI to team up with AI in 98' draft, then he would have had more finals trips for sure

DIRK is the southern version of bean Bryant, CUBAN laced him with talent yr in and out for decade plus and got 2 finals out of it, nice deal for most part but I expected more if he is as highly ranked as you have him and it has nothing to do with WIN SHARES, not a damn thing

this is why I know how to rank players game, because to me he didn't choke in 06' or fall off since he won nba mvp following yr and he didn't get ranked up higher because he carried offensively the team in 11', he was always the same player, rather choker or carrier....nothing more nothing less

sometimes you get it done and sometimes you don't, ask the GOAT of psd, JORDAN who won 6 rings in like 15 seasons, but if you bought all the super duper hype you would sware JORDAN won 13 out of 15yrs, or all 15yrs for that hypeful matter

This misspelled tirade is both inaccurate in many ways as well as bizarre. However, I will give you the honor of responding to the vast majority of your inaccurate points directly.

1. The fact that you mentioned it was a weaker era is honestly unbelievable.

Dirk went head to head with LeBron James, Dwyane Wade, and Chris Bosh. LeBron James will be considered one of the greatest players ever when it is all said and done. In the Western Conference Finals, they beat OKC and this year's soon-to-be MVP Kevin Durant, who is nearly half way to 30K points at 25 years of age. In the quarterfinals, they swept the two-time defending champs led by the most often player compared to MJ, Kobe Bryant. They were picked by every ESPN expert to lose that series (most said in 5 games). Then you have the dynasty that is the Spurs, the Bulls team with an MVP Rose, the veteran Celtics, players like Chris Paul, Dwight Howard, Carmelo Anthony, etc. A very talented era.

2. "Cuban laced him with talent": Are you ****ing kidding me?

Since 2003, he's been on a team Josh Howard (one all star) and a 36 year old Jason Kidd (one all star w/ Dirk). His starting center in the 2006 NBA Finals was DeSagana ****ing Diop That's a career 9.8 PER'er. His other centers have consisted of Erick "Erica" Dampier, and Shawn "Poster'd" Bradley.

The year they won the championship he was the lone all star on that team. Laced with talent my ***.

3. The 2010-2011 finals was rigged. This is pretty ironic.

If you asked anyone who knew anything about basketball what the most two controversial playoff series were in the last 20 years they'd tell you the 2002 WCF and the 2006 NBA Finals. Go google "rigged", "nba", and "playoffs" and you'll find a bunch of hits for the 2002 WCF and the 2006 NBA Finals. The Mavs beat the Heat flat out, and to give you an idea, the Heat averaged 1.6 fouls a game more than the Mavericks. Marginal.

In the 2006 NBA finals, Dwyane Wade received the notorious "phantom fouls" and set an NBA record for 16.1 FTA per game. To give you an idea, Kevin Durant the leader in FTA per game this year, is averaging under 10 per game. Go search on google "phantom foul" and see what the auto-complete says. Try "ghost foul".

Try "worst officiating in nba history" and see the first three nba links say (third one is all sports; DNA). The first one has the 06 finals number one. The second one has three listed, with one being the 06 finals, the fourth one (third one is all sports) is a youtube video with the 06 Finals as #2. The 2010-11 Finals is not once mentioned.

The 06 Finals is considered one of the worst officiated playoff series in recent memory. The 2010-2011 Finals is not.

Irony.

4. Spelling like a 12 year old, and comparing a top 10 scorer all time to Bean Bryant makes you look completely ignorant.

I can't understand some of your broken sentences, so you should probably try harder to make complete sentences in the future if you value making sense.

5. Dirk's numbers are significantly better in the playoffs.

That is fact. He doesn't choke. He's had big time playoff games, and made big time shots in the clutch. He's better in the playoffs by a significant margin. Call it what you want, I'll call it clutch.

ricky recon
04-16-2014, 01:08 AM
So you give Cousy credit for 0 championships? Being one of the best players on a dynasty holds no value ? What about the fact that he dominated the assist category to almost unseen levels? He was the best PG in the NBA for a decade straight.

I'm aware there were less teams but there still has to be a level of success that supersedes that difference and most people seem to act like anything pre 1980 is insignificant.

I'll give credit where credit is due, he was a great player and played an important role in those championships.

But you cannot ignore the fact that his first 6 years he made it to the finals 0 times, when there were 8 teams in the league. You also can't ignore that the team went on to win 5 more championships with that core after he retired.

So you really have to ask the question how significant his role was in winning those championships, or even deeper, his role in winning basketball games? Can you honestly say they wouldn't have won a championship without him? Before Russell came along they never even played in a championship game.

You can't overlook that, especially when there's eight teams in the league.

ricky recon
04-16-2014, 01:20 AM
So you have a guy playing with six other HOF players in an 8 team league, who only made it to the finals when Bill Russell came a long.

Then you have on the flip side, a guy playing with 0 all stars the year he won it all in a league with 30 teams, and he beat LeBron James and Dwyane Wade.

It is what it is, Dirk has a greater legacy. Cousy might be one of the founding fathers of passing basketball, but Dirk was a greater player and accomplished greater things. The whole win share thing is pretty amazing, and if you really understand how those advanced statistics are formulated, you'd be extremely averse to putting Dirk and Cousy even on the same level. Cousy is the first great point guard, but his resume in context isn't on the same level of greatness as what Dirk has accomplished and has yet to accomplish.

basketfan4life
04-16-2014, 07:03 AM
I think his peak is better than Garnett's. Only Duncan was better than him as far as Powe forwards go. And the year he won the MVP award and the year before that, i have never seen a big man "making his teammates better" as good as Dirk. Don't let assist numbers fool you, he was just nuts.

PhillyFaninLA
04-16-2014, 07:48 AM
sure but can you really make a case for Kobe top 5?

Top 8-11, for sure.

He is at best the 4th best Laker all time, maybe 5th (Magic, Shaq, Wilt, Kareem all better)

torocan
04-16-2014, 10:08 AM
11-20 seems about right for Dirk depending on how you view his specific game.

As for Kobe top 5? GTFO. No. No. And F. No. Kobe isn't even a top 3 All time LAKER.

Top 10? Sure. Top 5? No F. Way.

Jeffy25
04-16-2014, 01:46 PM
I'm more than willing to have a discussion about the level of contributions toward championships but the guy flat out said "they are really Russell's rings." I'm not putting words in anyone's mouth there.


I have to pin-point this post. "not exactly fair to give Cousy credit for them when they are really Russell's rings." It's posts like this that drive me crazy. One player wins a ring every year? That's absurdity. So by your estimation... Pippen has 0? Cousy deserves every bit of credit for all 6 of those titles and the fact that he babe ruth'd his peers in assists and was one of the top scorers in the league as well proves his value. It doesn't matter to me how he would play in the NBA now, his legacy is cemented in history.

Personally, I don't think rings matter at all in regards to discussions about player ranks, so you are preaching to the wrong choir

But he was never the best player on any of those teams, and many times was the 3rd or 4th best player. So to say 6 time NBA champion, when there were only 8 teams in the league and he wasn't even the best player on his teams is misguided accolades.

Jeffy25
04-16-2014, 01:50 PM
So you give Cousy credit for 0 championships? Being one of the best players on a dynasty holds no value ? What about the fact that he dominated the assist category to almost unseen levels? He was the best PG in the NBA for a decade straight.

I'm aware there were less teams but there still has to be a level of success that supersedes that difference and most people seem to act like anything pre 1980 is insignificant.

Seriously?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ast_per_g_progress.html

Chronz
04-16-2014, 01:56 PM
Seriously?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ast_per_g_progress.html

He means relative to his era. Back then, you could only get an assist if it led directly to a bucket, without the other player dribbling IIRC. Not too sure of the official definition but I do know league average in assists magically started getting about a 10% boost at some point in the 70's or 80's

Jeffy25
04-16-2014, 01:59 PM
He means relative to his era. Back then, you could only get an assist if it led directly to a bucket, without the other player dribbling IIRC. Not too sure of the official definition but I do know league average in assists magically started getting about a 10% boost at some point in the 70's or 80's

Love the sig, but it looks like Paul carries at first lol

Chronz
04-16-2014, 02:03 PM
Love the sig, but it looks like Paul carries at first lol
Yeah, but then you notice he hasn't even picked up his dribble yet and you bow down to the genius

Jeffy25
04-16-2014, 02:03 PM
Lol, yes

Jeffy25
04-16-2014, 08:15 PM
I guess JW won't be giving us his rankings.

slashsnake
04-17-2014, 06:09 PM
He means relative to his era. Back then, you could only get an assist if it led directly to a bucket, without the other player dribbling IIRC. Not too sure of the official definition but I do know league average in assists magically started getting about a 10% boost at some point in the 70's or 80's

He was the first sure. But immediately there were better.

And no offense but if you start your career in the NBA's 2nd season (precursor to NBA started up 3 years before that when you had teams like the Stags, Ironmen, Rebels, Falcons, Steam Rollers, and Huskies that made up over half the league)... being the all time leader in assists might not be that spectacular.

Put it this way. He retired 3rd in assists per game, 18 years into the NBA's formation (he played 13 of them). If the league was 18 years old now, Deron Williams would be 3rd in assists per game in NBA history.

Dolph Shayes was the greatest scorer in NBA history when he retired as the greatest assist man. Nothing against him, but when we talk great scorers in league history, where do you have him?