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View Full Version : James Harden is SEVERELY underrated...



freejimmer
04-06-2014, 10:59 PM
Best player on a 50+ win team in a stacked conference.

25ppg, 6apg, 5rpg, 46fg%, 37% from 3, 86% from the line.

Clutch.

Improved D, especially in the post.

Best SG in the league and it isn't even close.

First team all-nba.

Should be 2nd in MVP voting behind Durant.

Deception
04-06-2014, 11:08 PM
Jimmer is more underrated. #FreeJimmer

JJ_JKidd
04-06-2014, 11:08 PM
Best player on a 50+ win team in a stacked conference.

25ppg, 6apg, 5rpg, 46fg%, 37% from 3, 86% from the line.

Clutch.

Improved D, especially in the post.

Best SG in the league and it isn't even close.

First team all-nba.

Should be 2nd in MVP voting behind Durant.

Ok

ATX
04-06-2014, 11:08 PM
Cool thread

BALLER R
04-06-2014, 11:09 PM
Tony parker far more underrated.

Kushed
04-06-2014, 11:09 PM
the only underrated thing in this thread is the taco bell grilled stuft nacho

NYMetros
04-06-2014, 11:12 PM
If he plays better defense then he'll climb up my rankings. He's properly rated right now.

Hawkeye15
04-06-2014, 11:12 PM
Harden is underated?

flea
04-06-2014, 11:21 PM
Who on earth is Harden defending in the post of any noteworthiness? There are probably only a handful of guards capable of operating in the post anyway and McHale is not going to let Harden spend extended minutes on guys like Wade and Andre Miller. I think you just made this crap up in order to gloss over his glaring weakness.

goku
04-06-2014, 11:33 PM
eh until he learns to play defense more consistently he is rated fine where he is the best SG in the league but if he could play defense he could enter the top 5

alexander_37
04-06-2014, 11:34 PM
Who on earth is Harden defending in the post of any noteworthiness? There are probably only a handful of guards capable of operating in the post anyway and McHale is not going to let Harden spend extended minutes on guys like Wade and Andre Miller. I think you just made this crap up in order to gloss over his glaring weakness.

He shut down Lee like 3 times in a row. :shrug:

goingfor28
04-06-2014, 11:38 PM
You mean severely overrated?

rockets-fan
04-06-2014, 11:39 PM
Who on earth is Harden defending in the post of any noteworthiness? There are probably only a handful of guards capable of operating in the post anyway and McHale is not going to let Harden spend extended minutes on guys like Wade and Andre Miller. I think you just made this crap up in order to gloss over his glaring weakness.

No he actualy guards other post players sometimes....

For example the last warriors rockets game, he guarded David lee in the fourth quarter (correct me if I'm wrong dub fans but I think I'm right) and did an exceptional job.

flea
04-06-2014, 11:41 PM
Wow so he got a stop on a switch and all of a sudden he's much improved. Let's just say I'll wait for more evidence (statistical and eyeball) but I sort of doubt it.

alexander_37
04-06-2014, 11:47 PM
Wow so he got a stop on a switch and all of a sudden he's much improved. Let's just say I'll wait for more evidence (statistical and eyeball) but I sort of doubt it.

He also hit a crazy 3 then shut down the Nuggets Iso play single handedly.

lincecum=future
04-06-2014, 11:54 PM
Hahaha Harden is so over rated it's ridiculous

chi-townlove1
04-07-2014, 12:04 AM
^ this. And he is the king of flopping. Lost most respect for him this year. Drive to the lane, force the refs to call a foul, shoot free throws. That's not good basketball to me.

theGhost-isGone
04-07-2014, 12:09 AM
^ this. And he is the king of flopping. Lost most respect for him this year. Drive to the lane, force the refs to call a foul, shoot free throws. That's not good basketball to me.

This is all D-Rose and Wade in his prime do. It's basketball 101: give it to your start slashing guard, watch them make an acrobatic and one or sink 2 free throws, them play half court defense.

tredigs
04-07-2014, 12:16 AM
He shut down Lee like 3 times in a row. :shrug:

Oh? Well then GOAT.

sunsfan88
04-07-2014, 12:17 AM
My hope is that Dragic overtakes him by next season as the #1 SG in the league.

alexander_37
04-07-2014, 12:19 AM
^ this. And he is the king of flopping. Lost most respect for him this year. Drive to the lane, force the refs to call a foul, shoot free throws. That's not good basketball to me.

Really because Harden shot 3 more FT's last year than rose in his prime and 2 more per game this year. What does Rose do?

Durant shoots as many or more what does he do?

Walt
04-07-2014, 12:27 AM
Yeah lol. He's actually overrated.

Walt
04-07-2014, 12:29 AM
My hope is that Dragic overtakes him by next season as the #1 SG in the league.

Lol....

goku
04-07-2014, 12:45 AM
^ this. And he is the king of flopping. Lost most respect for him this year. Drive to the lane, force the refs to call a foul, shoot free throws. That's not good basketball to me.

Wait didn't Rose Do this ??????????????? drive in the lane and throw his body around im sure he did cause his jumper is nothing like Hardens

goku
04-07-2014, 12:48 AM
My hope is that Dragic overtakes him by next season as the #1 SG in the league.

what isn't dragic a PG

Master Mind
04-07-2014, 01:36 AM
Harden...the D is silent.




:confused: Wait, I messed that up.

effen5
04-07-2014, 01:50 AM
I've never seen Drose flop and I've watched every game in his career. Dwyane Wade...that's a different story.

Asik's better
04-07-2014, 01:55 AM
Before this turns into another 20 page with people arguing in circles, I'll say that harden is a top 10, maybe top 5 player but not a top 4. His defence has improved but still needs a lot of attention. He has had a great march and early April. Those are the facts whether you like it or not. Now let's close this thread and move on.

rhino17
04-07-2014, 02:18 AM
If he plays better defense then he'll climb up my rankings. He's properly rated right now.

He's improved his defense a lot. He isn't a great perimeter defender and I'm not sure he ever will be because just lacks lateral quickness. But he is a phenomenal post defender, probably the best at his position in the nba defending the post. That isn't particularly helpful against most guards, but the rockets have used him pretty effectively in stretches guarding the PF position.

He also isn't flopping nearly at the rate he used to. There used to be times where he wouldn't even attempt to make a shot, just flail and hope for the foul. He's cut back on that a ton

sunsfan88
04-07-2014, 02:19 AM
Lol....
You do realize that their numbers are pretty similar right?

what isn't dragic a PG
He plays SG to Bledsoe as the PG. He forced into PG when Bledsoe was out with the injury though.

5ass
04-07-2014, 02:28 AM
He played good defense in okc. I still believe he has it in him.

Duncan = Donkey
04-07-2014, 04:59 AM
Ill take Dragic over Harden anyday

HouRealCoach
04-07-2014, 05:42 AM
I wouldn't say severely

archdevil84
04-07-2014, 06:54 AM
chuck hayes is underrated. guy could average 40 PPG 25 RPG if he goes for it and he would be the best player in the league hands down not even close

Saddletramp
04-07-2014, 07:16 AM
The Chuck Wagon!

Yankeefan213
04-07-2014, 07:21 AM
His flopping is underrated, yes.

Hawkeye15
04-07-2014, 07:35 AM
He's improved his defense a lot. He isn't a great perimeter defender and I'm not sure he ever will be because just lacks lateral quickness. But he is a phenomenal post defender, probably the best at his position in the nba defending the post. That isn't particularly helpful against most guards, but the rockets have used him pretty effectively in stretches guarding the PF position.

He also isn't flopping nearly at the rate he used to. There used to be times where he wouldn't even attempt to make a shot, just flail and hope for the foul. He's cut back on that a ton

I generally think you are pretty rational about Houston players, but anyone who says Harden is even remotely average defensively is on something.

He constantly loses his man when off the ball. It's as if he has absolutely no defensive awareness at all. I mean none. He is fine on the post, and that is how many possessions? 2 a game? He lacks the lateral quickness to stay with his man, doesn't know what a passing lane is, and watches the ball like its a pair of boobs when his man doesn't have it.

Harden is a fantastic offensive player, but he will never be a top 5 player unless he starts playing some ****ing defense. People say Love is bad. My god, Harden makes him look like an excellent defender.

Htownballa1622
04-07-2014, 08:18 AM
Ill take Dragic over Harden anyday

Then you'd constantly be led to cusp of the playoffs or missing it all together.

Chrisclover
04-07-2014, 08:20 AM
Best player on a 50+ win team in a stacked conference.

25ppg, 6apg, 5rpg, 46fg%, 37% from 3, 86% from the line.

Clutch.

Improved D, especially in the post.

Best SG in the league and it isn't even close.

First team all-nba.

Should be 2nd in MVP voting behind Durant.
His contribution is like young Kobe 's. But He is not 2nd in MVP voting behind Durant. LBJ is insurmountable for Harden .

Chrisclover
04-07-2014, 08:21 AM
Tony parker far more underrated.

Pop underuses him so Parker is naturally underrated.

Hawkeye15
04-07-2014, 08:21 AM
Then you'd constantly be led to cusp of the playoffs or missing it all together.

I would take Dragic over Lin all day haha. Morey, damnit! You should have just kept Dragic. Though I think Hornacek is doing a much better job with him that McHale would have.

Htownballa1622
04-07-2014, 08:26 AM
I would take Dragic over Lin all day haha. Morey, damnit! You should have just kept Dragic. Though I think Hornacek is doing a much better job with him that McHale would have.

Haha. That's a diff story you hit on right there. Dragic >>> Lin.

If only Dragic didn't want that 4th year player option. :mad:

c.c.
04-07-2014, 08:37 AM
Harden plays defense well in the post and sags off on the perimeter unless it's clutch time. On another note Asik is underrated, I'm still shocked teams didn't make a good push for him during the deadline.

kdspurman
04-07-2014, 09:03 AM
I generally think you are pretty rational about Houston players, but anyone who says Harden is even remotely average defensively is on something.

He constantly loses his man when off the ball. It's as if he has absolutely no defensive awareness at all. I mean none. He is fine on the post, and that is how many possessions? 2 a game? He lacks the lateral quickness to stay with his man, doesn't know what a passing lane is, and watches the ball like its a pair of boobs when his man doesn't have it.

Harden is a fantastic offensive player, but he will never be a top 5 player unless he starts playing some ****ing defense. People say Love is bad. My god, Harden makes him look like an excellent defender.

I've watched him sometimes and he'll be walking around on defense, and as soon as Houston gets the rebound or change of possession, he goes into another gear. He seems to ball watch and like you said lose track of his man. It's crazy, but who knows maybe in the post season he'll put more effort into it.

FlashBolt
04-07-2014, 09:55 AM
I don't think anyone is underrating him. He's just where he needs to be. He's not a top 5 player imo. Rather take Durant, James, CP3, Love, Griffin, Westbrook. And you stated "stacked" West. Houston is one of the most stacked roster's. Only in Houston can you bench your starting center and have a backup center who can grab 20+ rebound in a given game. Asik is averaging 12 PPG and 17 RPG since Howard has been inactive. Lots of help on that squad. Harden would not be able to lead this team to a 50 win season without Howard imo.

alexander_37
04-07-2014, 10:34 AM
I don't think anyone is underrating him. He's just where he needs to be. He's not a top 5 player imo. Rather take Durant, James, CP3, Love, Griffin, Westbrook. And you stated "stacked" West. Houston is one of the most stacked roster's. Only in Houston can you bench your starting center and have a backup center who can grab 20+ rebound in a given game. Asik is averaging 12 PPG and 17 RPG since Howard has been inactive. Lots of help on that squad. Harden would not be able to lead this team to a 50 win season without Howard imo.

Really because they won 45 with like 3 players being on the roster the year before. Lololol lets see westbrook lead a 50 win team....

KG21
04-07-2014, 10:54 AM
You must be kidding...

FOBolous
04-07-2014, 11:25 AM
i don't believe he's underrated. i think he's rated fine exactly where he is...best SG in the game, in the top 10, but outside of the top 5. But for those of you who says he's overrated....all i'm going to say is that, since the all-star game, he has averaged 28.3ppg, 7 assists, 2 steals, a FG% of 48, and 3P% of 42.6. He defense WAS atrocious at the beginning of the season and he did flop A LOT at the beginning of the season, but he has improved on both counts as the season progressed.

flea
04-07-2014, 11:45 AM
First Harden is underrated because of his BEST IN THE LEAGUE post defense and now Hibbert is as big of a bust as Kwame Brown because LOL PPG/RPG. Screw this place.

Longhornfan1234
04-07-2014, 11:58 AM
Harden is a manufactured superstar. He needs the refs' whistles.

FOBolous
04-07-2014, 11:59 AM
First Harden is underrated because of his BEST IN THE LEAGUE post defense and now Hibbert is as big of a bust as Kwame Brown because LOL PPG/RPG. Screw this place.

i don't think anyone thinks Harden has "best in the league" post defense. however, he does do a good job guarding bigger players in the post. Houston lacks a good defender at the PF spot so there are times when Harden is assigned to guard opposing PFs, and he has done a good job at it....a better job than our actual PFs. whether you agree with this or not is inconsequential, because this is a FACT. It actually happened.

FOBolous
04-07-2014, 12:04 PM
Harden is a manufactured superstar. He needs the refs' whistles.

it's funny that players like Allen Iverson and Dwayne Wade are praised as guys who "sacrifice their bodies" by "throwing themselves in the paint" but when Harden does the same thing that all other slashing superstars has done, he's a flopper and a "manufactured star." yeea...i'm sure NBA "manufactured" his above average FG%, 3P%, and high assist rates :rolleyes:

flea
04-07-2014, 12:05 PM
i don't think anyone thinks Harden has "best in the league" post defense. however, he does do a good job guarding bigger players in the post. Houston lacks a good defender at the PF spot so there are times when Harden is assigned to guard opposing PFs, and he has done a good job at it....a better job than our actual PFs. whether you agree with this or not is inconsequential, because this is a FACT. It actually happened.


But he is a phenomenal post defender, probably the best at his position in the nba defending the post.

I'll be sure to tune in next time the Rockets play the Nets, which won't be until next season. Even though Harden will likely be on Anderson or a similar non-factor all game (like he is virtually every game because he's awful defensively) he'll probably see some time with Joe Johnson or Pierce. I'd like to see how he handles their post moves if he's all of a sudden become so good.

RiLoc
04-07-2014, 12:08 PM
Harden will never be a MVP candidate until he starts playing defense. This is Harden on defense: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIyiEc1741s

Longhornfan1234
04-07-2014, 12:09 PM
it's funny that players like Allen Iverson and Dwayne Wade are praised as guys who "sacrifice their bodies" by "throwing themselves in the paint" but when Harden does the same thing that all other slashing superstars has done, he's a flopper and a "manufactured star." yeea...i'm sure NBA "manufactured" his above average FG%, 3P%, and high assist rates :rolleyes:

Lol... Stop it, Cletus. Wade's slashing Offsensive arsenal is much more advance than Harden's. Harden's numbers are inflated because of the high pace offense and ref whistles. If you slow the game down, Harden struggles a lot.

FOBolous
04-07-2014, 12:10 PM
I'll be sure to tune in next time the Rockets play the Nets, which won't be until next season. Even though Harden will likely be on Anderson or a similar non-factor all game (like he is virtually every game because he's awful defensively) he'll probably see some time with Joe Johnson or Pierce. I'd like to see how he handles their post moves if he's all of a sudden become so good.

lol oh. yea i wouldn't say he's the "best at his position," but, based on his successes this season when forced to guard opposing PFs due to Houston's hole at the PF position, he has done a good job.

FOBolous
04-07-2014, 12:13 PM
Lol... Stop it, Cletus. Wade's slashing Offsensive arsenal is much more advance than Harden's. Harden's numbers are inflated because of the high pace offense and ref whistles. If you slow the game down, Harden struggles a lot.

i think you misunderstood my post. i wasn't comparing Harden to Wade, because I think Harden is better. I'm saying Harden isn't the first slashing superstar guard who gets the benefit of the doubt from the refs...Iverson and Wade both does the same thing and gets the same "respect" from the refs...yet Harden is the only one that gets flack for it.

FOBolous
04-07-2014, 12:16 PM
Harden will never be a MVP candidate until he starts playing defense. This is Harden on defense: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIyiEc1741s

this is from earlier in the season when he was absolutely atrocious on defense. Fans in Houston were all mad at him. but, like many has stated several times in this thread, his defense and effort has improved as the season progressed.

N.Carolina King
04-07-2014, 12:25 PM
1. Best player on a 50+ win team in a stacked conference.

2. 25ppg, 6apg, 5rpg, 46fg%, 37% from 3, 86% from the line.

3. Clutch.

4.Improved D, especially in the post.

5. Best SG in the league and it isn't even close.

6. First team all-nba.

7. Should be 2nd in MVP voting behind Durant.

1. Plays with best C in the league

2. 6 apg 5rpg is about avg for the minutes he plays, 37% is good, not great

3. I'll agree with that

4. Who does Harden guard in the post? and perimeter D is still below average, so no.

5. Only because Kobe is injured and in all fairness, the SG position in the NBA SUCKS right now

6. Sure, but once again, the crop of SG's in the league right now is the worst it's been in YEARS.

7. Negative, that would be Lebron James.

* In summary: Yes Harden is a very good player, however, he get's plenty of credit, plenty of notice, plenty of props, plenty of star calls. His rating is right where it should be.

kylem4711
04-07-2014, 12:26 PM
Harden will never be a MVP candidate until he starts playing defense. This is Harden on defense: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIyiEc1741s

This is hilarious.

Bruno
04-07-2014, 12:37 PM
except he can't defend his position and defense is 50% of the game.

his offensive abilities speak for themselves. harden shouldn't be getting any second place votes ahead of James.

rhino17
04-07-2014, 12:40 PM
lol oh. yea i wouldn't say he's the "best at his position," but, based on his successes this season when forced to guard opposing PFs due to Houston's hole at the PF position, he has done a good job.

I don't know why people think that is outlandish. How many shooting guards play great post defense? Harden is stronger and thicker than most SGs which gives him that ability. I said it's not a particularly valuable skill because it's not at his position, but I can't name a SG better at it

MonroeFAN
04-07-2014, 12:52 PM
How is he underrated? He's a top 5 player according to the majority of users here.

You want more than top 5? Sorry, can't have it.

alexander_37
04-07-2014, 01:01 PM
Lol... Stop it, Cletus. Wade's slashing Offsensive arsenal is much more advance than Harden's. Harden's numbers are inflated because of the high pace offense and ref whistles. If you slow the game down, Harden struggles a lot.

How is his sky high efficiency affected by the pace of the game. It's not like he is getting these numbers by sheer volume. ( BTW Dwayne Wade shoots more FT's than Harden so..... lololol.)

chi-townlove1
04-07-2014, 01:03 PM
^ this. And he is the king of flopping. Lost most respect for him this year. Drive to the lane, force the refs to call a foul, shoot free throws. That's not good basketball to me.

Really because Harden shot 3 more FT's last year than rose in his prime and 2 more per game this year. What does Rose do?

Durant shoots as many or more what does he do?

You guys sit here and act as if I said something regarding rose. Always trying to turn it back on somebody else. I never ONCE said a word about Derrick rose. I was making a statement of fact about harden

flea
04-07-2014, 01:03 PM
I don't know why people think that is outlandish. How many shooting guards play great post defense? Harden is stronger and thicker than most SGs which gives him that ability. I said it's not a particularly valuable skill because it's not at his position, but I can't name a SG better at it

Well for one, Wade is still probably the best defensive SG in the league. Joe Johnson is better defensively, in the post too I'm sure (though admittedly I'm not an expert on Harden's post defense, I just know it's almost assuredly bad). Wes Matthews, Jimmy Butler, Klay Thompson all come to mind too.

alexander_37
04-07-2014, 01:04 PM
You guys sit here and act as if I said something regarding rose. Always trying to turn it back on somebody else. I never ONCE said a word about Derrick rose. I was making a statement of fact about harden

How can you go on about not respecting Harden when he plays the same style as Rose, Wade, and multiple other players. It's a double standard and you are a hypocrite.

alexander_37
04-07-2014, 01:05 PM
Well for one, Wade is still probably the best defensive SG in the league. Joe Johnson is better defensively, in the post too I'm sure (though admittedly I'm not an expert on Harden's post defense, I just know it's almost assuredly bad). Wes Matthews, Jimmy Butler, Klay Thompson all come to mind too.

So you admit you have no clue what you are talking about. Cool.

PurpleLynch
04-07-2014, 01:09 PM
FreeJimmer I missed you. But I want more threads on Jimmer.

chi-townlove1
04-07-2014, 01:09 PM
You guys sit here and act as if I said something regarding rose. Always trying to turn it back on somebody else. I never ONCE said a word about Derrick rose. I was making a statement of fact about harden

How can you go on about not respecting Harden when he plays the same style as Rose, Wade, and multiple other players. It's a double standard and you are a hypocrite.


Once again, bring rose into the equation. You want to talk about Derrick, fine, but not with me. I am not one of those avid bulls fans that believes Derrick is the second coming. I think he is a greatly athletic player that has a ton to work on. Does he throw his body into other players when driving the lane? Yeah. Does he flop unbelievably on every play in order to get a "superstar" call. Not a chance. That is where my respect for James harden diminishes. The man 1) does not play good enough to defense to get the praise that he receives, 2) forces himself to the line in order to bump up those ppg stats. I like James harden, but I do not believe he is anywhere near the top 5 players in the game of basketball, nor do I believe he is the top SG.

flea
04-07-2014, 01:09 PM
So you admit you have no clue what you are talking about. Cool.

I've watched plenty of James Harden "play" defense. I've seen him on switches, but I've never seen anything close him showing he's the best post defending guard in the league. Apparently he got onto David Lee on some switches a few games ago and now all the Rockets fans are convinced he's Dennis Rodman down low.

I'm being courteous by not immediately saying you're completely wrong, but until you actually provide evidence for your case beyond an anecdote in one game then the burden remains on you.

alexander_37
04-07-2014, 01:21 PM
Once again, bring rose into the equation. You want to talk about Derrick, fine, but not with me. I am not one of those avid bulls fans that believes Derrick is the second coming. I think he is a greatly athletic player that has a ton to work on. Does he throw his body into other players when driving the lane? Yeah. Does he flop unbelievably on every play in order to get a "superstar" call. Not a chance. That is where my respect for James harden diminishes. The man 1) does not play good enough to defense to get the praise that he receives, 2) forces himself to the line in order to bump up those ppg stats. I like James harden, but I do not believe he is anywhere near the top 5 players in the game of basketball, nor do I believe he is the top SG.

You are allowed to be wrong that's cool and all. Harden does go to the line alot but not as much as other star players so how come people give him such a bad rap? Exactly..

alexander_37
04-07-2014, 01:22 PM
I've watched plenty of James Harden "play" defense. I've seen him on switches, but I've never seen anything close him showing he's the best post defending guard in the league. Apparently he got onto David Lee on some switches a few games ago and now all the Rockets fans are convinced he's Dennis Rodman down low.

I'm being courteous by not immediately saying you're completely wrong, but until you actually provide evidence for your case beyond an anecdote in one game then the burden remains on you.

I never said he was the best I just merely said he was very good at it when the situation arises.

goku
04-07-2014, 01:23 PM
Once again, bring rose into the equation. You want to talk about Derrick, fine, but not with me. I am not one of those avid bulls fans that believes Derrick is the second coming. I think he is a greatly athletic player that has a ton to work on. Does he throw his body into other players when driving the lane? Yeah. Does he flop unbelievably on every play in order to get a "superstar" call. Not a chance. That is where my respect for James harden diminishes. The man 1) does not play good enough to defense to get the praise that he receives, 2) forces himself to the line in order to bump up those ppg stats. I like James harden, but I do not believe he is anywhere near the top 5 players in the game of basketball, nor do I believe he is the top SG.

lol so u have a problem with a player who is trying to win ??? Rose drive into the Paint one on 5 just about every game looking for a foul cause his jumper isn't as good as hardens nor does he have a team with a lot of Scorers

ThuglifeJ
04-07-2014, 01:25 PM
I don't think a player who instead of going for a shot or make a play, goes for a foul call by flailing his arms and head is very special....

flea
04-07-2014, 01:26 PM
I never said he was the best I just merely said he was very good at it when the situation arises.

From this thread it sounds more like he was adequate in the few instances he gets stuck down there. I mean we're talking about a guy whose coach only trusts him to stand next to mediocre shooters, and he usually screws that up by jumping a passing lane that nobody else saw but him.

rhino17
04-07-2014, 01:32 PM
Well for one, Wade is still probably the best defensive SG in the league. Joe Johnson is better defensively, in the post too I'm sure (though admittedly I'm not an expert on Harden's post defense, I just know it's almost assuredly bad). Wes Matthews, Jimmy Butler, Klay Thompson all come to mind too.

Again, I only said post defense. He has pretty quick hands and is probably the strongest and thickest SG in the nba. And in the post there isn't as much room to get around him, which helps him a lot more. He is never gonna be a great perimeter defender because he lacks lateral quickness. Quick guards are always going to beat him. All the guys you named are better overall defenders but not in the post

But he also doesn't play like he is drunk on the perimeter anymore. He is playing at close to an average level now.

Also, in terms of MVP, he's probably 4/5 depending on where you rank him or Noah. But not playing defense hasn't stopped plenty of people from winning mvp. Steve Nash was the single worst defender I've seen in 15 years and he won 2.

chi-townlove1
04-07-2014, 01:35 PM
I don't think a player who instead of going for a shot or make a play, goes for a foul call by flailing his arms and head is very special....


Thank you for putting exactly what I wanted to say in such not nice words.

BenFrank
04-07-2014, 01:44 PM
I was just thinking if Harden would be able to get 1st team this year, he's put this team on his back on numerous occasions.. and is bringing the clutch back to clutchcity, and I would agree he is severely underrated "on PSD", because this board is fill with haters and fanboys... last thing they want to do is give him credit.. but Harden has been beasting this year and the numbers don't lie.. Top 5 player

kingsdelez24
04-07-2014, 01:52 PM
Now you know this guy is a troll

Hawkeye15
04-07-2014, 02:01 PM
Again, I only said post defense. He has pretty quick hands and is probably the strongest and thickest SG in the nba. And in the post there isn't as much room to get around him, which helps him a lot more. He is never gonna be a great perimeter defender because he lacks lateral quickness. Quick guards are always going to beat him. All the guys you named are better overall defenders but not in the post

But he also doesn't play like he is drunk on the perimeter anymore. He is playing at close to an average level now.

Also, in terms of MVP, he's probably 4/5 depending on where you rank him or Noah. But not playing defense hasn't stopped plenty of people from winning mvp. Steve Nash was the single worst defender I've seen in 15 years and he won 2.

no, he isn't. He constantly loses his man because he is ball watching, and isn't laterally quick enough on rotations. He is a very poor perimeter defender, who appears downright lazy at times.

Hawkeye15
04-07-2014, 02:03 PM
I was just thinking if Harden would be able to get 1st team this year, he's put this team on his back on numerous occasions.. and is bringing the clutch back to clutchcity, and I would agree he is severely underrated "on PSD", because this board is fill with haters and fanboys... last thing they want to do is give him credit.. but Harden has been beasting this year and the numbers don't lie.. Top 5 player

remember, the all NBA teams aren't broken up by position, so he is obviously competing with CP3, Curry, and the rest of the PG's.

At the end of the day, it wouldn't surprise me if Curry/Paul make it, nor would it surprise me if Harden bumps Curry. But he isn't a shoe-in for 1st team all NBA.

Hawkeye15
04-07-2014, 02:07 PM
espn just released a new +/- study, that now factors in who is on the floor with you, to make sure you aren't getting credit just for being on the floor with a Kevin Durant, or LeBron James for instance.

Harden is 33rd in the rankings. Offensively, he ranks 5th. But to find his defensive ranking, you need to scroll through 10 pages, to # 390 in the league.

NYKnickFanatic
04-07-2014, 02:14 PM
Harden will never be a MVP candidate until he starts playing defense. This is Harden on defense: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIyiEc1741s

:laugh2: Wow. It's so funny when his defender makes a basket and he claps his hands.

Hawkeye15
04-07-2014, 02:22 PM
Harden will never be a MVP candidate until he starts playing defense. This is Harden on defense: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIyiEc1741s

this video is a perfect example of what I am talking about.

Any Rockets fan in here sticking up for his defense, be honest. Do you not yell at your television screen around 5 times a game because Harden has no ****ing idea where his man is?

I am serious. All the guy does is watch the ball like its a pair of ****, and when his man scores, he claps his hands together, which from my experiences, is a guy trying to act like he is pissed so he doesn't get pulled.

Harden is one of the worst perimeter defenders in the league.

But again, he is so good offensively, you live with that. But in order for him to be taken seriously as a superstar, he MUST get better on defense. There is no way around it.

flea
04-07-2014, 02:24 PM
That video also shows how bad he is at playing passing lanes, which is ostensibly all he's really trying to do. For a guy who is an above average playmaker he's really bad at judging angles on defense.

BenFrank
04-07-2014, 02:26 PM
remember, the all NBA teams aren't broken up by position, so he is obviously competing with CP3, Curry, and the rest of the PG's.

At the end of the day, it wouldn't surprise me if Curry/Paul make it, nor would it surprise me if Harden bumps Curry. But he isn't a shoe-in for 1st team all NBA.

I agree, that's why I'm still kind of skeptical.. but I can see it going either way also between him and Curry

Snapshot
04-07-2014, 02:26 PM
remember, the all NBA teams aren't broken up by position, so he is obviously competing with CP3, Curry, and the rest of the PG's.

At the end of the day, it wouldn't surprise me if Curry/Paul make it, nor would it surprise me if Harden bumps Curry. But he isn't a shoe-in for 1st team all NBA.

Bingo.

And im gonna be pretty upset if Curry doesn't get the nod...tbh I didn't think Harden should've made the All Star team last year, and that his spot should have went to Steph...but IIRC the game was being played in HOU so there's the politics of it all...

BenFrank
04-07-2014, 02:33 PM
Harden will never be a MVP candidate until he starts playing defense. This is Harden on defense: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIyiEc1741s

This video was at the start of the season and yes his defense was atrocious, what Rockets fans are saying is that his defense had gotten better since the start of the year until the now, can he still get better.. Yes he can, where not saying he a all team defender, but to use this to say that this is how he plays defense now should be considered a troll.. because u take probably his worst defensive game of the year and say.. this is James Hardens defense.. I see what u did there

Hawkeye15
04-07-2014, 02:37 PM
This video was at the start of the season and yes his defense was atrocious, what Rockets fans are saying is that his defense had gotten better since the start of the year until the now, can he still get better.. Yes he can, where not saying he a all team defender, but to use this to say that this is how he plays defense now should be considered a troll.. because u take probably his worst defensive game of the year and say.. this is James Hardens defense.. I see what u did there

did you watch the Toronto game? Harden was burned backdoor a handful of times.

rhino17
04-07-2014, 02:38 PM
no, he isn't. He constantly loses his man because he is ball watching, and isn't laterally quick enough on rotations. He is a very poor perimeter defender, who appears downright lazy at times.totally disagree. He hasn't been playing that way since December/early January. He definitely hasn't played the lazy defense in recent months,

Parsons loses his man more often than harden.

Hawkeye15
04-07-2014, 02:42 PM
totally disagree. He hasn't been playing that way since December/early January. He definitely hasn't played the lazy defense in recent months,

Parsons loses his man more often than harden.

I dont agree with that at all. I watch a ton of Rockets games, and I can't help but watch Harden on defense, and just see him staring at the ball. Anytime his man cuts hard back door, he ends up toast unless his big hedges it off. He just has no defensive awareness at all.

rhino17
04-07-2014, 02:45 PM
I dont agree with that at all. I watch a ton of Rockets games, and I can't help but watch Harden on defense, and just see him staring at the ball. Anytime his man cuts hard back door, he ends up toast unless his big hedges it off. He just has no defensive awareness at all.

I too watch every single game. That streak that started at the new year was in huge part due to harden finally giving an effort on defense.

Hawkeye15
04-07-2014, 02:59 PM
I too watch every single game. That streak that started at the new year was in huge part due to harden finally giving an effort on defense.

consistent effort? No. We don't agree on this. He is an eye sore on the defensive end when I watch most nights. It's not that he doesn't care imo, it's just that he lacks awareness, and ball watches the entire time.

The streak had more to do with the team finally having chemistry and continued health. Remember, Parsons, Lin, Beverley, and Asik missed a lot of time early. They were all relatively healthy throughout that streak.

NYMetros
04-07-2014, 03:00 PM
I remember Harden's post defense was valuable in the Rockets/Warriors game earlier this year (game was on 2/20). Yes he is very strong and was able to outmuscle David Lee but please, his defense is absolutely atrocious 98% of the time and that's why he isn't the 3rd or 4th best player in the game. He doesn't even try on defense most of the time.

BenFrank
04-07-2014, 03:09 PM
Honestly: He's wishy washy.. when he plays with Howard I see more effort, I'm guessing Asik lets him get by without saying anything.. but I've seen him put in the effort on defense, and a lot of it is on coach Mchale to.. he's a softy that don't get on Harden for his defense.. but one day he will return to this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63TDVWnZ5K8

flea
04-07-2014, 03:10 PM
This David Lee anecdote is beyond dumb. If Nate Robinson switches onto Zach Randolph a couple times and he misses the shot are we going to say Nate Robinson is a great post defender for a guard? Absolutely not, because if Robinson is guarding Randolph then something has gone badly wrong with your rotations - just like if Harden is seeing more than a possession here or there on a guy like Lee that can shoot, drive, and post up then something has gone badly wrong with your defensive alignment.

BenFrank
04-07-2014, 03:14 PM
This David Lee anecdote is beyond dumb. If Nate Robinson switches onto Zach Randolph a couple times and he misses the shot are we going to say Nate Robinson is a great post defender for a guard? Absolutely not, because if Robinson is guarding Randolph then something has gone badly wrong with your rotations - just like if Harden is seeing more than a possession here or there on a guy like Lee that can shoot, drive, and post up then something has gone badly wrong with your defensive alignment.

People bring up David Lee, because he was killing us that game... no one could stop him, then they put Harden on him at the end of the game.. and he shut him down for the rest of the game.. He played great post defense, he lateral quickness isn't that great, but his strength is what make him a good post defender.. David Lee would back down and shoot right over Nate Robinson he's like 5'9

flea
04-07-2014, 03:21 PM
People bring up David Lee, because he was killing us that game... no one could stop him, then they put Harden on him at the end of the game.. and he shut him down for the rest of the game.. He played great post defense, he lateral quickness isn't that great, but his strength is what make him a good post defender.. David Lee would back down and shoot right over Nate Robinson he's like 5'9

I'd want to really look at the end of this game to see if he locked him down. The only reason I could see putting Harden on Lee intentionally is because Harden is bad, as in one of the worst in the NBA, at chasing shooters around. If the choice is him guarding Thompson/Curry that can end games with open looks, versus trotting out a smaller lineup and putting Harden on the PF, and the Rockets have the lead - then, and only then, can I see it being a strategic decision.

Hawkeye15
04-07-2014, 03:23 PM
I'd want to really look at the end of this game to see if he locked him down. The only reason I could see putting Harden on Lee intentionally is because Harden is bad, as in one of the worst in the NBA, at chasing shooters around. If the choice is him guarding Thompson/Curry that can end games with open looks, versus trotting out a smaller lineup and putting Harden on the PF, and the Rockets have the lead - then, and only then, can I see it being a strategic decision.

I think that is the far more likely scenario, but i didn't watch that particular game for more than a few minutes.

TrueFan420
04-07-2014, 03:35 PM
the only underrated thing in this thread is the taco bell grilled stuft nacho

Preach on brother!

Goose17
04-07-2014, 03:48 PM
Harden is rated about right. Top 3 offensive player in his position. Defensive skillset is average. Effort defensively ranges from mediocre to near top tier from game to game.

Goose17
04-07-2014, 03:52 PM
The David Lee stuff makes me laugh.

When O'Neal shut down Dwight, a lot of Houston fans on here were saying "He didn't shut him down, Dwight just had a bad game".

Imagine if a Dubs fan came in here and said "Harden didn't shut Lee down, Lee was just having a bad game"


Come on people...

Crackadalic
04-07-2014, 04:00 PM
James harden. Top shooting guard. Top 5 offensive player. Below average on defense. Clutch

He needs to get better on D because he ball watches a lot

alexander_37
04-07-2014, 04:04 PM
Harden is rated about right. Top 3 offensive player in his position. Defensive skillset is average. Effort defensively ranges from mediocre to near top tier from game to game.

Lolol top 3?

Goose17
04-07-2014, 04:08 PM
Lolol top 3?

You don't think he's top 3? Each to their own I guess.

MonroeFAN
04-07-2014, 04:16 PM
I love people who don't refute points, they just "lol" at them. Just makes you look stupid.

While I don't agree, I think he's easily the best 2 guard on offense.

alexander_37
04-07-2014, 04:21 PM
You don't think he's top 3? Each to their own I guess.

.... trolling please tell me 2 better guards let alone sg's

Asik's better
04-07-2014, 04:48 PM
I knew this would happen. 8 pages of people arguing in circles. Can't wait until this thread disappears then gets bumped for some stupid reason. It's becoming to predictable.

kobe4thewinbang
04-07-2014, 05:03 PM
He can ball but he acts like a damn eunuch flopping all the time.

FOBolous
04-07-2014, 05:10 PM
The David Lee stuff makes me laugh.

When O'Neal shut down Dwight, a lot of Houston fans on here were saying "He didn't shut him down, Dwight just had a bad game".

Imagine if a Dubs fan came in here and said "Harden didn't shut Lee down, Lee was just having a bad game"


Come on people...

i mean...well both O'Neal and Dwight have been in the league for awhile. There is no history of O'Neal shutting down Dwight so if Dwight happens to play poorly, you can chalk it up to Dwight having a bad game.

On the other hand, Harden and Lee doesn't have a history of matching up against each other (for obvious reasons). Lee was having a phenomenal game and the Rockets had no answer for Lee until McHale had a stroke of genius (or luck) and decided to put Harden on Lee. after Harden started guarding Lee, Lee went from having a phenomenal game to not being able to buy a basket even if his life depended on it. so you tell me why Rockets fan think the way we do.

AddiX
04-07-2014, 05:11 PM
Harden is the face of awful nba basketball.

Chuck threes, look to get fouled, play weak *** defense. The stern built era of fake superstars.

FOBolous
04-07-2014, 05:20 PM
Harden is the face of awful nba basketball.

Chuck threes, look to get fouled, play weak *** defense. The stern built era of fake superstars.

how do you equate him shooting 42.6% from the three since the all-star break to him "chucking" 3s? Heck, if i'm a coach and i have a player that shoots that well from the 3, i want him to "chuck" 3s all day.

and it's a statistical fact that slashers get more calls than usual. The amount of free throws he gets per game, 9, is about the same as all other slashing superstars. Dwayne Wade, in his prime, averaged 10 free throw attempts a game...Allen Iverson averaged about 10 FT attempts a game too. Sure Harden tends to embellish his fouls a little bid, but the narrative of him being a flopper has gotten out of control to a point where all other aspects of his game is diminished because of it. Harden does NOT get more "respect" from the refs than any other superstars who likes to attack the rim.

Goose17
04-07-2014, 06:27 PM
.... trolling please tell me 2 better guards let alone sg's

I could name ten point guards better when talking strictly about offense (remember there's more to offense than scoring)

SGs is tougher. I never said he wasn't the best, I said he was in the top 3, could be #1, could be #2 or could be #3.

He's in there somewhere with a healthy Wade, healthy Ginobili, Derozan and/or Dragic if anyone is still counting him as a 2 guard.

Goose17
04-07-2014, 06:30 PM
As for the Lee stuff I'm not getting into it. Use all the excuses and cop outs that you like. Anyone who knows anything about basketball could see O'Neal played stellar defense and completely shut Dwight down.

Oh and there's no history of O'Neal shutting him down? You mean aside from the fact that out of the 25 times they've been matched up, O'Neal has held Dwight to 40% or less 12 times. Almost 50% of the time they meet, he shuts him down.

alexander_37
04-07-2014, 06:35 PM
I could name ten point guards better when talking strictly about offense (remember there's more to offense than scoring)

SGs is tougher. I never said he wasn't the best, I said he was in the top 3, could be #1, could be #2 or could be #3.

He's in there somewhere with a healthy Wade, healthy Ginobili, Derozan and/or Dragic if anyone is still counting him as a 2 guard.

Lololol the hate is real

NoahH
04-07-2014, 06:37 PM
1. Harden is NOT underrated
2. He definitely has not improved on defense and if he has its went from terrible to very bad

Goose17
04-07-2014, 06:37 PM
Lololol the hate is real

MonroeFan already hit it on the head.

FOBolous
04-07-2014, 06:40 PM
As for the Lee stuff I'm not getting into it. Use all the excuses and cop outs that you like. Anyone who knows anything about basketball could see O'Neal played stellar defense and completely shut Dwight down.

Oh and there's no history of O'Neal shutting him down? You mean aside from the fact that out of the 25 times they've been matched up, O'Neal has held Dwight to 40% or less 12 times. Almost 50% of the time they meet, he shuts him down.

By "cop out," you mean "logic?" If you really want to think that a player with no history of shutting down the other player is suddenly that player's kryptonite than more power to you.

Goose17
04-07-2014, 06:43 PM
By "cop out," you mean "logic?" If you really want to think that a player with no history of shutting down the other player is suddenly that player's kryptonite than more power to you.

No history? Shuts him down in almost half of the occasions where they were matched up.

Duuuuuurrrrrrrrr

Hawkeye15
04-07-2014, 06:43 PM
god, how did Rockets and Warriors fans become so annoying when they start talking?

FOBolous
04-07-2014, 06:44 PM
1. Harden is NOT underrated
2. He definitely has not improved on defense and if he has its went from terrible to very bad

while I agree that harden is not underrated, I disagree with your assertion that he has not improved on defense because he most definitely has.

Goose17
04-07-2014, 06:45 PM
You tell me.

Player A shut down player B on 12 separate occasions after being matched up 25 times.

Player X shut down player Y on one occasion after being matched up once.

Is it more likely that A shut down B and Y was having a bad game?

Or is it more likely that X shut down Y and B was having a bad game?



OR... they both got shut down.
Derp.

Bruno
04-07-2014, 07:33 PM
god, how did Rockets and Warriors fans become so annoying when they start talking?

rocket fans inferiority complex went into overdrive once they landed dwight. golden state fans little man syndrome kicks in when their squad is criticized despite their talent level. add a few heated games and the fact that they're both in the running for maybe getting out of the second round this year and there you go.

ive noticed a lot of rocket fans behaving like 70% of the Laker fan base since the Dwight addition. arrogance, and GS takes exception because as far as they're concerned, they're just as good.

im not specifically referring to psd either.

Hawkeye15
04-07-2014, 07:34 PM
rocket fans inferiority complex went into overdrive once they landed dwight. golden state fans little man syndrome kicks in when their squad is criticized despite their talent level. add a few heated games and the fact that they're both in the running for maybe getting out of the second round this year and there you go.

ive noticed a lot of rocket fans behaving like 70% of the Laker fan base since the Dwight addition. arrogance, and GS takes exception because as far as they're concerned, they're just as good.

im not specifically referring to psd either.

well played..

Asik's better
04-07-2014, 07:39 PM
What a suprise, a thread turned into Houston vs GSW somehow. It's not like that's happened before.

ricky recon
04-07-2014, 08:31 PM
Severely overrated.

He couldn't hold Durant's or Lebron's jockstrap.

Not a top two guard either (Paul and Curry), nonetheless a top two player.

ricky recon
04-07-2014, 08:34 PM
The only reason Harden is even considered one of the top players is because he flails around like a fish out of water and draws fouls. His game isn't scoring the ball unless it's at the foul line, because he isn't a very good three point shooter, and he's the biggest actor in the league.

ricky recon
04-07-2014, 08:37 PM
James Harden has a 107 DRtg, and the team has a 105.7 DRtg.

Last year he had a 106 DRtg, and the team had a 106.1 DRtg.

So the team's defense has improved, but has gotten worse with Harden on the floor.

Tell me how he's improved as a defender if the production hasn't been there.

hotdalton18
04-07-2014, 08:41 PM
This whole thread is stupid , he gets half his points from FT's lol

Doesn't shoot 50%

If u put him ahead of LeBron your a damn fool , look at numbers kid

CousinsEvansDUO
04-07-2014, 08:44 PM
Tyreke evans has been better than harder and always will be better than harden, harden gets more opportunities and tyreke is too nice and too innocent, hes always been the next mj, harden is garbage, cant wait for him to chuck too many shots and make the rockets lose

goku
04-07-2014, 08:51 PM
This whole thread is stupid , he gets half his points from FT's lol

Doesn't shoot 50%

If u put him ahead of LeBron your a damn fool , look at numbers kid



and he shoots around 45-46% which isn't bad not 50% but not a bad percentage for a shooting guard who carries a team offense

he is not overrated nor underrated he is rated right where he is

goku
04-07-2014, 08:53 PM
[QUOTE=goku;28284944]

he is a slasher I remember when Carter Kobe pierce T-mac etc all used to go to the line at high rates "KD right now"

he shoots around 45-46% which isn't bad not 50% but not a bad percentage for a shooting guard who carries a team offense

he is not overrated nor underrated he is rated right where he is

alexander_37
04-07-2014, 08:59 PM
This whole thread is stupid , he gets half his points from FT's lol

Doesn't shoot 50%

If u put him ahead of LeBron your a damn fool , look at numbers kid

Kobes career average is 45% he never got close to 50....

Asik's better
04-07-2014, 09:25 PM
Severely overrated.

He couldn't hold Durant's or Lebron's jockstrap.

Not a top two guard either (Paul and Curry), nonetheless a top two player.


The only reason Harden is even considered one of the top players is because he flails around like a fish out of water and draws fouls. His game isn't scoring the ball unless it's at the foul line, because he isn't a very good three point shooter, and he's the biggest actor in the league.


James Harden has a 107 DRtg, and the team has a 105.7 DRtg.

Last year he had a 106 DRtg, and the team had a 106.1 DRtg.

So the team's defense has improved, but has gotten worse with Harden on the floor.

Tell me how he's improved as a defender if the production hasn't been there.


This whole thread is stupid , he gets half his points from FT's lol

Doesn't shoot 50%

If u put him ahead of LeBron your a damn fool , look at numbers kid


Tyreke evans has been better than harder and always will be better than harden, harden gets more opportunities and tyreke is too nice and too innocent, hes always been the next mj, harden is garbage, cant wait for him to chuck too many shots and make the rockets lose
And here come the trolls. Well freejimmer got his wish. Well done psd.

Hawkeye15
04-07-2014, 09:26 PM
Tyreke evans has been better than harder and always will be better than harden, harden gets more opportunities and tyreke is too nice and too innocent, hes always been the next mj, harden is garbage, cant wait for him to chuck too many shots and make the rockets lose

omg

mightybosstone
04-07-2014, 09:30 PM
Tyreke evans has been better than harder and always will be better than harden, harden gets more opportunities and tyreke is too nice and too innocent, hes always been the next mj, harden is garbage, cant wait for him to chuck too many shots and make the rockets lose

This is some truly ignorant, delusional ****. I don't know how even a casual NBA fan can honestly believe this nonsense.

Shlumpledink
04-07-2014, 09:30 PM
He's already been talked about as being the best shooting guard in the league all year, I think it's hard to say a guy is underrated when they are routinely called the best at their position.

2nd in mvp voting? Lebron still has him there.

The most underrated player in the league is Tony Parker. He is playing in Tim Duncan's shadow, and TD gets the lions share of his teams credit. Even when Tony Parker is winning finals mvps, he isn't talked about as being the best point guard

mightybosstone
04-07-2014, 09:40 PM
I looked at this thread briefly last night and was just furious at some of these comments, but I've come to the conclusion that Harden is just one of those players who causes fans to overreact on either side of the spectrum. People watch the last few minutes of that game and see Harden carry the team on his back, but they totally miss how bad his perimeter defense was early in the game or how mediocre he was offensively for most of the game. People who see him suck defensively and get the benefit of the occasional bad call hone in solely on that, without recognizing how he carries Houston with his offense late in close games and hits huge shots.

Harden is what he is. He's one of the 3-4 best offensive players in the NBA. He has a unique ability to get to the rim in traffic and draw contact like no one in the league, he's a deadly outside shooter and he's a pretty damn dangerous playmaker in a pick and roll offense. He also has very little lateral quickness defensively and takes too many plays off on that end of the floor. Is he a pretty decent post defender? Sure, but you'll rarely ever see it, because wings aren't dumb enough to try to post him up and he's too small to defend most PFs in the paint.

Bottom line? You could make a case that he's a top 5-10 guy in the league, or you can make a case that the one-sided nature of his game makes him more like a top 15-20 guy. Personally, I think he's a top 5-10 guy, because great offense always beats great defense in this sport, and I'd rather have a guy who gives up 20 points a night, but scores 30 and hits the game winner at the buzzer.

James Harden is only overrated by those who refuse to see the faults in his game, and he's only underrated by those who refuse to accept his talents as a legitimate, elite offensive player.

Hawkeye15
04-07-2014, 09:45 PM
I looked at this thread briefly last night and was just furious at some of these comments, but I've come to the conclusion that Harden is just one of those players who causes fans to overreact on either side of the spectrum. People watch the last few minutes of that game and see Harden carry the team on his back, but they totally miss how bad his perimeter defense was early in the game or how mediocre he was offensively for most of the game. People who see him suck defensively and get the benefit of the occasional bad call hone in solely on that, without recognizing how he carries Houston with his offense late in close games and hits huge shots.

Harden is what he is. He's one of the 3-4 best offensive players in the NBA. He has a unique ability to get to the rim in traffic and draw contact like no one in the league, he's a deadly outside shooter and he's a pretty damn dangerous playmaker in a pick and roll offense. He also has very little lateral quickness defensively and takes too many plays off on that end of the floor. Is he a pretty decent post defender? Sure, but you'll rarely ever see it, because wings aren't dumb enough to try to post him up and he's too small to defend most PFs in the paint.

Bottom line? You could make a case that he's a top 5-10 guy in the league, or you can make a case that the one-sided nature of his game makes him more like a top 15-20 guy. Personally, I think he's a top 5-10 guy, because great offense always beats great defense in this sport, and I'd rather have a guy who gives up 20 points a night, but scores 30 and hits the game winner at the buzzer.

James Harden is only overrated by those who refuse to see the faults in his game, and he's only underrated by those who refuse to accept his talents as a legitimate, elite offensive player.

I mean, if you read my posts in this thread, we both agree 1000000%. The Rox are my 2nd team, and when I watch them, at least 5 times a game, I am yelling at Harden for not even knowing where the **** his man is, as he gets back doored, or killed on a pick. But his offense is just so awesome. He just needs to become even an acceptably bad defender to be a superstar.

Frustrating watching him through rational eyes on the defensive end. He is just so inconsistent, and he loses his man all the time because he watches the ball like its Pamela Andersons 1999 boobs.

mightybosstone
04-07-2014, 09:45 PM
And for the record, I do think Harden is a tad underrated on PSD. But I still wish people wouldn't make threads like this, which will only further force fans to one side or the other of the spectrum. Threads like this are why the general NBA forum sucks 90% of the time and why 75-80% of all arguments devolve into Kobe vs. Lebron hatefests. These threads are the Fox News of PSD.

mightybosstone
04-07-2014, 09:56 PM
I mean, if you read my posts in this thread, we both agree 1000000%. The Rox are my 2nd team, and when I watch them, at least 5 times a game, I am yelling at Harden for not even knowing where the **** his man is, as he gets back doored, or killed on a pick. But his offense is just so awesome. He just needs to become even an acceptably bad defender to be a superstar.

Frustrating watching him through rational eyes on the defensive end. He is just so inconsistent, and he loses his man all the time because he watches the ball like its Pamela Andersons 1999 boobs.

Oh, no. I totally agree with you. There were times in that game last night, particularly in the first and third quarters, where I just wanted to scream at the guy. There are usually 2-3 times a game where he hangs around the paint with his eyes focused away from his man to the ballhandler at the top of the key. Meanwhile, his man is nowhere near him, gets lost on the floor and either has an easy drive to the rim or a wide open jump shot.

It's frustrating. But he usually starts giving ****s when he absolutely has to on that end of the floor, and he does a better job of fighting through picks and closing out shooters late in close games than he does in the first half of games that don't matter. Also, I can't knock him too much for losing his man when he's actually paying attention, because he's just not that fast. Frankly, he should probably be defending opposing SFs instead of SGs, because he's just not laterally quick enough to defend most guards.

But at the end of the day, the pluses greatly outweigh the negatives with the guy. If there are four or five possessions a game where Harden gives up a basket that an average player wouldn't have given up, then there are 10 possessions a game where he does something on offense that an average player isn't remotely capable of doing. He's gotten to the point offensively where he's surpassed efficiency wise by pretty much only Lebron and Durant.

KNICKS R BACK
04-07-2014, 09:59 PM
*James Harden is SEVERELY overrated...

Hawkeye15
04-07-2014, 10:00 PM
Oh, no. I totally agree with you. There were times in that game last night, particularly in the first and third quarters, where I just wanted to scream at the guy. There are usually 2-3 times a game where he hangs around the paint with his eyes focused away from his man to the ballhandler at the top of the key. Meanwhile, his man is nowhere near him, gets lost on the floor and either has an easy drive to the rim or a wide open jump shot.

It's frustrating. But he usually starts giving ****s when he absolutely has to on that end of the floor, and he does a better job of fighting through picks and closing out shooters late in close games than he does in the first half of games that don't matter. Also, I can't knock him too much for losing his man when he's actually paying attention, because he's just not that fast. Frankly, he should probably be defending opposing SFs instead of SGs, because he's just not laterally quick enough to defend most guards.

But at the end of the day, the pluses greatly outweigh the negatives with the guy. If there are four or five possessions a game where Harden gives up a basket that an average player wouldn't have given up, then there are 10 possessions a game where he does something on offense that an average player isn't remotely capable of doing. He's gotten to the point offensively where he's surpassed efficiency wise by pretty much only Lebron and Durant.

yep. He makes my top 10 for sure because of his offensive dominance. I agree with your post for sure.

I just get so pissed at times when he is staring at the ball and has no clue where his guy is haha.

mightybosstone
04-07-2014, 10:02 PM
*James Harden is SEVERELY overrated...

Thanks for adding something to the conversation. You really earned that 434th post.

ricky recon
04-07-2014, 10:34 PM
And here come the trolls. Well freejimmer got his wish. Well done psd.

Troll?

Go ahead and tell me why the rocket's defense, as a whole, is worse with Harden on the floor.

His defensive rating is 107, while the team has a 105.7 defensive rating. That ratio from his rating to the team's rating is actually worse this year than it was last year.

How can you metricize or even conceptualize how James Harden has improved as a defender? I'm actually very interested to see what someone would actually come up with.

ricky recon
04-07-2014, 10:39 PM
My biggest problem with Harden is that I think his style truly takes away from the game of basketball. He steals money from NBA fans every time he flops the way he does.

There is a big difference between selling a foul, as most great offensive players do, and getting trapped so creating a foul out of thin air, with no contact, which he does on a consistent basis. I don't think that is skill. I think it's robbing fans from good basketball.

freejimmer
04-07-2014, 10:45 PM
FreeJimmer I missed you. But I want more threads on Jimmer.

I missed you, too.

championships
04-07-2014, 10:48 PM
Overrated.

mightybosstone
04-07-2014, 10:48 PM
My biggest problem with Harden is that I think his style truly takes away from the game of basketball. He steals money from NBA fans every time he flops the way he does.

There is a big difference between selling a foul, as most great offensive players do, and getting trapped so creating a foul out of thin air, with no contact, which he does on a consistent basis. I don't think that is skill. I think it's robbing fans from good basketball.

And my biggest problem with posts like this is that they show how easily fans misconceive Harden's game. Does he get maybe 1-3 calls per game that an average player wouldn't and shouldn't get and that probably shouldn't be fouls to begin with? Sure. I'm not debating that. But they make up such a minuscule part of what his offensive game is about. Where's the praise for his ability to knife through defenders and finish around the rim? Or his perimeter shooting and how consistently hits big shots late in games?

By focusing on the extremely small percentage of Harden's offensive plays that you have a problem with, you're totally overlooking the huge portion of Harden's game that makes him one of the league's most dynamic, unique offensive players in years. It's just selective basketball viewing at its finest.

mightybosstone
04-07-2014, 10:50 PM
Overrated.

Again, why even post this? You've added nothing to the conversation, you have provided zero evidence or data to back up your argument and you're probably not even going to stick around long enough to see my response. It's becoming more and more obvious to me why so many people on PSD that I've never seen or heard of have so many posts, and it's because too many people on this site never have anything of value to say.

ricky recon
04-07-2014, 11:02 PM
And my biggest difference with posts like this is that they show how easily fans misconceive Harden's game. Does he get maybe 1-3 calls per game that an average player wouldn't and shouldn't get and that probably shouldn't be fouls to begin with? Sure. I'm not debating that. But they make up such a minuscule part of what his offensive game is about. Where's the praise for his ability to knife through defenders and finish around the rim? Or his perimeter shooting and how consistently hits big shots late in games?

By focusing on the extremely small percentage of Harden's offensive plays that you have a problem with, you're totally overlooking the huge portion of Harden's game that makes him one of the league's most dynamic, unique offensive players in years. It's just selective basketball viewing at its finest.

It's not selective viewing at all. He's one of six players in the league to actually be fined for flopping this year I believe. He's one of the most highly touted floppers in the league, if not the biggest perpetrator.

Not superstar calls, not getting calls all the time, but intentionally flopping with no contact. Not something the officials call or do not call, it is an action controlled by James Harden. Once a game, twice a week, it doesn't matter how often he blatantly flops.

To me, when players do that on any kind of consistent basis, it really robs the fans from watching the best basketball in the world. It has nothing to do with selective viewing, and everything with James Harden flopping. Not getting superstar calls or whatever you are calling that. I am talking about flopping. Not selling a foul, or getting calls in the paint, but genuinely flopping.

Hawkeye15
04-07-2014, 11:14 PM
I mean, Harden flops bad, but until the league does anything about it, I will never get upset at those who take advantage of it.

mightybosstone
04-07-2014, 11:16 PM
It's not selective viewing at all. He's one of six players in the league to actually be fined for flopping this year I believe. He's one of the most highly touted floppers in the league, if not the biggest perpetrator.

Not superstar calls, not getting calls all the time, but intentionally flopping with no contact. Not something the officials call or do not call, it is an action controlled by James Harden. Once a game, twice a week, it doesn't matter how often he blatantly flops.

To me, when players do that on any kind of consistent basis, it really robs the fans from watching the best basketball in the world. It has nothing to do with selective viewing, and everything with James Harden flopping. Not getting superstar calls or whatever you are calling that. I am talking about flopping. Not selling a foul, or getting calls in the paint, but genuinely flopping.

But you hurt your own point in the same post by saying that he's one of six players in the league who have been fined this year. Where's the hate for those players? Are those players not "robbing the fans" also? And by the way you've constructed your argument, it's as if your'e suggesting this is a James Harden problem and not a league-wide issue, which is totally not the truth. You don't think Lebron James or Kevin Durant or Blake Griffin flop? Because I assure you that they do.

This is not a James Harden issue. It's an NBA issue. So let's not point fingers at one particular player when guys all over the league are doing it and benefiting from it, especially when those egregious flops make up such a ridiculously small portion of his offensive possessions.

Also, you kind of need to get over yourself in general. "Robbing the fans from watching the best basketball in the world?" Seriously? Look at EVERY major professional sport, and you'll see an instance of players doing something similar. In the NFL, kickers and quarterbacks turn into Oscar winning actors when they get the slightest chance to draw a personal foul call. In MLB, catchers are constantly trying to sell balls as strikes, and batters will often step into pitches they could clearly avoid to get on base. And soccer? Soccer pretty much invented the art of the flop. Exaggerating plays and stretching the truth has always been a part of sports. Guys have been flopping for decades, and they'll be doing it decades from now. James Harden is going to have zero effect on that.

Hawkeye15
04-07-2014, 11:19 PM
But you hurt your own point in the same post by saying that he's one of six players in the league who have been fined this year. Where's the hate for those players? Are those players not "robbing the fans" also? And by the way you've constructed your argument, it's as if your'e suggesting this is a James Harden problem and not a league-wide issue, which is totally not the truth. You don't think Lebron James or Kevin Durant or Blake Griffin flop? Because I assure you that they do.

This is not a James Harden issue. It's an NBA issue. So let's not point fingers at one particular player when guys all over the league are doing it and benefiting from it, especially when those egregious flops make up such a ridiculously small portion of his offensive possessions.

Also, you kind of need to get over yourself in general. "Robbing the fans from watching the best basketball in the world?" Seriously? Look at EVERY major professional sport, and you'll see an instance of players doing something similar. In the NFL, kickers and quarterbacks turn into Oscar winning actors when they get the slightest chance to draw a personal foul call. In MLB, catchers are constantly trying to sell balls as strikes, and batters will often step into pitches they could clearly avoid to get on base. And soccer? Soccer pretty much invented the art of the flop. Exaggerating plays and stretching the truth has always been a part of sports. Guys have been flopping for decades, and they'll be doing it decades from now. James Harden is going to have zero effect on that.

as annoying as a brutal Harden flop is when playing my team, that is exactly right. Until the league does something about it, I am not going to hold it against a guy for using it to his advantage.

FlashBolt
04-08-2014, 12:59 AM
I mean, Harden flops bad, but until the league does anything about it, I will never get upset at those who take advantage of it.

This is my take on it. It's like if the government didn't stop people from robbing banks. Rightttt... Let's blame the people who actually rob the banks instead of the government. The point of a basketball game is to win by any means necessary. Just as long as you don't start fights and play dirty, I think anything else is fair game. Why should a player not flop to help his team win? Sure, it's not "basketball" but the game of basketball has never been just about basketball. You think Detroit played "basketball"? That was like street fighter + basketball. In no way would they be as great of a team if they didn't commit cheap antics.