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View Full Version : Is the East really THAT bad



Jets012
04-05-2014, 05:38 PM
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the East is this powerhouse conference, but is it possible we are overrating how bad the conference is. I understand it's not as strong as the west, but It appears a bunch of teams have found their rhythm as of late:

Raptors: 38-20 since the Gay trade
Nets: 31-13 in the New Year
Bulls: 32-14 in the New Year
Wizards: 15-8 over last 23 games

Now we know Indy and Miami are the top teams, but it appears that these 4 teams have found their rhythm as of late at the perfect time. I think the East will be a bit more interesting than everyone thinks.

Goose17
04-05-2014, 05:52 PM
Yep. It is. It's terrible.

Jamiecballer
04-05-2014, 06:01 PM
There are 5 good teams and the rest are varying degrees of ****.

FriedTofuz
04-05-2014, 06:02 PM
it's terrible in the sense that there's literally no contender besides miami, while in the west, any team from 1-6 could end up making it to the nba finals.

Hawkeye15
04-05-2014, 06:28 PM
it is better finishing the season than it was entering the ASG, but it looks like only one team is a threat to win it all from the east now.

NoahH
04-05-2014, 06:31 PM
Everyone knew that the East was going to bounce back. And they did. They arent historically bad, they just arent too good this year.

slashsnake
04-05-2014, 06:32 PM
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the East is this powerhouse conference, but is it possible we are overrating how bad the conference is.

Not really.

And those 4 teams are 57-62 combined vs. the west.

Bulls look great lately... But even on their recent strong stretch they are 2-4 vs. the west.

Same with the Wizards... their last 23 games had losses to Phoenix, Portland, Denver, Sacramento, Memphis... They beat the Lakers and Utah. 2-5 vs. the West, 13-3 vs. the East. I have a feeling if they were in the west they would be in tank mode the past month instead of trying to improve a playoff seed.

Take Indiana... 17-12 vs. the west. 36-12 vs. the East.

torocan
04-05-2014, 06:33 PM
If you are looking at pure quality of play, yes it IS that bad.

Here's an exercise... look up each team's record vs the opposing conference. Then go down the list. Now tell me that it isn't that bad...

mdm692
04-05-2014, 06:40 PM
The Wolves and Pelicans would be top 5 teams in the East just on their rosters alome so yeah they are that bad. Brooklyn was on pace to be one of the 5 worst records in the league but thanks to the lack of competition in the east, along with some good coaching, they are back at the #5 seed so yeah it is that bad.

Hawkeye15
04-05-2014, 06:42 PM
The Wolves and Pelicans would be top 5 teams in the East just on their rosters alome so yeah they are that bad. Brooklyn was on pace to be one of the 5 worst records in the league but thanks to the lack of competition in the east, along with some good coaching, they are back at the #5 seed so yeah it is that bad.

if you factor in the Wolves expected W/L record this year, I suspect if you put them in the east, they are the #3 seed.

mdm692
04-05-2014, 06:45 PM
if you factor in the Wolves expected W/L record this year, I suspect if you put them in the east, they are the #3 seed.

Yeah. First sentence I meant to say the East is bad not that the Pels or Wolves are bad just a lot of bad luck.

lol, please
04-05-2014, 06:48 PM
Sometimes I wish the Dubs played in the east, just to dominate it.

torocan
04-05-2014, 06:51 PM
Sometimes I wish the Dubs played in the east, just to dominate it.

Just imagine that you're a fan of Phoenix, Memphis or Dallas and on track for 48-50 wins and are facing the real possibility of NOT making the play offs while teams like the Knicks and Cavaliers are making a push for the 8th seed.

The West is so tight it really doesn't take much to tumble down the standings and out of the play offs.

slashsnake
04-05-2014, 06:55 PM
if you factor in the Wolves expected W/L record this year, I suspect if you put them in the east, they are the #3 seed.

Wolves... 21-26 in the west... 17-11 vs. the East.

In the east that is a pace for 12.5 wins vs. the west and 28.5 in the east. So they would be a 41 win team... 5th seed with Brooklyn. Of course if Minnesota wasn't playing for a draft pick most of the year and Brooklyn wasn't playing for playoff seeding that could be very different.

Here's another.

New Orleans has won more out of conference games (NO is 19-11 vs. the East) than any team in the East but Miami (20-9 vs. the west).

Utah and the Lakers have won more non-conference games (24) than Chicago and Washington (23).

Sacramento, LA, and Utah are the only teams in the West with a losing record vs. the Eastern conference... The top 12 teams in the west ALL have winning records vs. the East.

As of right now a team missing the playoffs in the west will have a better record than the #3 seed in the east.

IgglesFanInCO
04-05-2014, 06:58 PM
Pacers would be a borderline playoff team in the west, no one besides the heat and them would have a good chance to make the playoffs

yes its that bad

Allphakenny1
04-05-2014, 07:03 PM
Just imagine that you're a fan of Phoenix, Memphis or Dallas and on track for 48-50 wins and are facing the real possibility of NOT making the play offs while teams like the Knicks and Cavaliers are making a push for the 8th seed.

The West is so tight it really doesn't take much to tumble down the standings and out of the play offs.

Without looking it up, I'm pretty sure this did happen to the Warriors the year after the WE BELIEVE team (08). I think they won 48 games and were the 9th seed in the west.

sunsfan88
04-05-2014, 07:06 PM
Please move the Suns to the East.

Hawkeye15
04-05-2014, 07:24 PM
Sometimes I wish the Dubs played in the east, just to dominate it.

well, your team is in California haha. Mine is in Minnesota, right next to Chicago, Milwaukee, or Indiana for instance.

slashsnake
04-05-2014, 07:39 PM
well, your team is in California haha. Mine is in Minnesota, right next to Chicago, Milwaukee, or Indiana for instance.

Yeah, mines too far too in Denver here. Honestly, most of the time I say I like divisions. I am fine with a 7-9 playoff team in the NFL, because what comes around goes around... But its been a long time since the East was the better conference

Hawkeye15
04-05-2014, 09:14 PM
Yeah, mines too far too in Denver here. Honestly, most of the time I say I like divisions. I am fine with a 7-9 playoff team in the NFL, because what comes around goes around... But its been a long time since the East was the better conference

its been a LONG time haha. 20 years, at least.

mdm692
04-05-2014, 09:42 PM
well, your team is in California haha. Mine is in Minnesota, right next to Chicago, Milwaukee, or Indiana for instance.

Since we're on the subject how about Minny to East, Orlando(rumored to be sold) to Seattle. Memphis should be in the East as well.

east fb knicks
04-05-2014, 09:45 PM
yes but only because the east is smart and a ton of teams are tanking the 2015 free agency will also change the landscape of the league ntm the spurs window is closing the east will be a power house soon

mdm692
04-05-2014, 10:47 PM
yes but only because the east is smart and a ton of teams are tanking the 2015 free agency will also change the landscape of the league ntm the spurs window is closing the east will be a power house soon

Like it was supposed to in 2010? :laugh:. The Suns disappeared and came back again and the East still sucks.

dalton749
04-05-2014, 11:27 PM
only miami,indy,toronto, and brooklyn have a positive record against the west, so yea its bad
but atleast 7 of the 8 teams in the playoffs will be better than .500 making it a little less embarassing

and the 3-5 seeds are better than west fans seem to give credit
toronto is 39-20 after rudy gay which is right there with miami and indy
and brooklyn and chicago have been very impressive in the new year

east fb knicks
04-06-2014, 01:03 AM
Like it was supposed to in 2010? :laugh:. The Suns disappeared and came back again and the East still sucks.

ummmm 2010 kinda did change the landscape of the east before then only the Celtics were a true threat from the east the heat have won the last two titles:facepalm: now in 2015 players like love gasol lma maybe even dragic will all come east for a easier chance at winning a chip

canzano55
04-06-2014, 01:58 AM
West coast NBA fans: "waah waah... It's not fair that the east have it so easy - they're so bad that they would never qualify for the playoffs in our conference except for the Heat. "

Stfu already.

mdm692
04-06-2014, 03:22 AM
ummmm 2010 kinda did change the landscape of the east before then only the Celtics were a true threat from the east the heat have won the last two titles:facepalm: now in 2015 players like love gasol lma maybe even dragic will all come east for a easier chance at winning a chip
Yes cause Amare changed everything and Boozer has done a fantastic job as well. The only significant big thing that happened is that 3 all stars on separate teams from the EAST teamed up on a EASTERN team. Aside from thay everybody outside of Miami has done a mediocre job. Bulls and Pacers drafted well and although the Bulls gave Boozer that horrible contract they have made up bu drafting well, like previously stated.

king4day
04-06-2014, 03:28 AM
I think The Nets have surpassed the Pacers as the next favorite team to get to the finals.
I also think if Charlotte plays Indy in round one, there could be an upset brewing.

king4day
04-06-2014, 03:31 AM
Since we're on the subject how about Minny to East, Orlando(rumored to be sold) to Seattle. Memphis should be in the East as well.

With their new arena, it would be super expensive for Seattle to be able to move Orlando. The only real chance a team moves is Milwaukee if they can't get a new arena.

monty77
04-06-2014, 05:46 AM
Raptors, Nets, Bulls and Wizards win a lot of games because they play many times agaisnt other East team, which are even weaker than them. This season there have been a lot of tanking in the East. This is embarrassing because I believed that teams such as Cavs and Pistons were going to increase their level.

If you look at the most of East teams rosters, there are good players. There are a tone of talented young players. I am sure that if there wouldn't be any trade in the next 2-3 years, the East will be as good as West in regard quality players. Even more considering that Duncan, Nowitzki, Nash and Bryant will soon retire from the league.

It is likely that 2 of 3 first draft pick end up in the East taking into account that 76ers and Bucks have the worst record in the league, widely. If Wiggins and Jabari Parker land in the East, along with other young players such as Drummons, the East will be more competitive.

Pistons, Cavs and Knicks will be better teams next year, there is no doubt about that. If Rose come back at good level (around 70-80%), the Bulls will be better too. Raptors have improved, and there is no reason they don't continue, as they have a young roster (Lowry, Valanjunas, DeRozan). Wizards are in the same situation with players as Wall and Beal.

So there will be competition to get playoffs. Indiana and Heat already are top 5 teams in the league.The problem is that players choose West Conference when they are free agent. So the draft effect which permitt balance the power in the league is annulled. If that won't happen in the future, there will be better players in the East allstar team very soon. This years, the backup players were much better in the Allstar West team. This was the main difference between both conferences: there are 5 or 6 players in the West who would have been allstar in the East this year.

MonroeFAN
04-06-2014, 06:51 AM
it is better finishing the season than it was entering the ASG, but it looks like only one team is a threat to win it all from the east now.

You mean the team that's won it twice in a row now?

goingfor28
04-06-2014, 06:59 AM
Charlotte will sweep the East

sunsfan88
04-08-2014, 08:46 PM
Kevin Love on the Nets’ turning their season around after rough start amidst high expectations: “They’re in the East.”

— Tim Bontemps (@TimBontemps) March 31, 2014

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/03/31/quote-of-the-day-kevin-love-explains-how-nets-have-turned-things-around-following-slow-start/

So yes...yes it is that bad.

NBA_Starter
04-08-2014, 08:50 PM
It has not been that bad since the New Year.

smith&wesson
04-08-2014, 09:08 PM
So yes...yes it is that bad.

theres only really 2-3 true contenders in the league overall so who gives a **** about the conferences.

sunsfan88
04-10-2014, 04:35 AM
theres only really 2-3 true contenders in the league overall so who gives a **** about the conferences.
Apparently Kevin Love does.

Crackadalic
04-10-2014, 06:15 AM
It's bad but not as bad as previous years

03-04 season had two teams under 500 make the playoff and the 6th seed was 41-41. The bottom teams just suck more but their rebuilding. How people forget how bad the east was in it's early 2000's

Plus the lottery can never get the east back on track when sub 500 teams make it we no lottery pick while 44+ win teams miss it out west but get a lottery pick. How can the middle teams out east ever improve?

Vampirate
04-10-2014, 08:05 AM
The Bulls, Nets and Raptors have made the East a 10 times more respectable conference then what it was a few months ago. The Wizards and Bobcats are over .500 too right now.

Hawkeye15
04-10-2014, 08:15 AM
You mean the team that's won it twice in a row now?

yes...

Hawkeye15
04-10-2014, 08:17 AM
The Bulls, Nets and Raptors have made the East a 10 times more respectable conference then what it was a few months ago. The Wizards and Bobcats are over .500 too right now.

exactly my first point. Midseason, the east was shaping up to be the biggest joke ever. But thank god for its own good, a few teams decided to play basketball again. Now, looking at the standings, it is the same trend as the last 15 years. Only one team sub .500 going into the playoffs. Midseason, there were 3-4.

Hawkeye15
04-10-2014, 08:18 AM
theres only really 2-3 true contenders in the league overall so who gives a **** about the conferences.

tell that to Memphis, Minnesota, or New Orleans, who would easily be a playoff team if they had an east friendly schedule.

Hawkeye15
04-10-2014, 08:23 AM
Wolves... 21-26 in the west... 17-11 vs. the East.

In the east that is a pace for 12.5 wins vs. the west and 28.5 in the east. So they would be a 41 win team... 5th seed with Brooklyn. Of course if Minnesota wasn't playing for a draft pick most of the year and Brooklyn wasn't playing for playoff seeding that could be very different.

Here's another.

New Orleans has won more out of conference games (NO is 19-11 vs. the East) than any team in the East but Miami (20-9 vs. the west).

Utah and the Lakers have won more non-conference games (24) than Chicago and Washington (23).

Sacramento, LA, and Utah are the only teams in the West with a losing record vs. the Eastern conference... The top 12 teams in the west ALL have winning records vs. the East.

As of right now a team missing the playoffs in the west will have a better record than the #3 seed in the east.

The Wolves also have a statistical W/L of 47-31, they just **** the bed the first 2/3 of the season on close games. They lead the NBA in 20, and 30 point leads. Basically, they are better than their record, pretty easily.

Give them 52 games a year agains east competition, and they win 50-53 games.

Look, outside the top 2 teams in the east, the east is mediocre, to really bad. Playing in that conference is absolutely nothing like the gauntlet of a regular season out west. You can overcome little injuries, rest guys, and still be good if your talent level is good enough. Out west, the tiniest things screw you.

slashsnake
04-10-2014, 09:12 AM
It's bad but not as bad as previous years

03-04 season had two teams under 500 make the playoff and the 6th seed was 41-41. The bottom teams just suck more but their rebuilding. How people forget how bad the east was in it's early 2000's

Plus the lottery can never get the east back on track when sub 500 teams make it we no lottery pick while 44+ win teams miss it out west but get a lottery pick. How can the middle teams out east ever improve?

Well, the issue there, is that the East needs to draft better, and do better in FA/trades. The Pacers last pick in the top 9 was George McCloud, their last top 5 was Rik Smits. It isn't high lottery picks that makes them a top team. The Heat's last impact draft pick was Wade, before that you are looking at Steve Smith. It seems like the teams in the East willing to spend like to shoot themselves in the foot. The teams that get a star, lose them with their inability to find role players to make them competitive. This isn't all of them of course, but more than the west.

Of the last 15 #1 overall picks, 4 have gone to the West. 7 of the 8 top 4 picks in the draft the last two years went to the East. Of course the 1 pick that went to the west was Anthony Davis, and the next best player drafted was Lillard who also went west.

The Cavs meanwhile have had 9 picks in the top 8 in the past 14 years and 4 in the top 4 the past 3 seasons (as well as the 19th and 24th picks). They've had a better chance to put top talent together through the draft than the entire western conference. Unfortunately their drafting may mean that the one who worked out may be on his way out and possibly to the West.

The spurs drafted Duncan in 1997 and since then have had 1 top 25 draft pick (James Anderson at 20). The Mavs last top 10 pick was Tractor Traylor. The lakers have only had two top 10 picks since they got James Worthy. Bynum at 10 and Eddie Jones at 10.

Nick O
04-10-2014, 09:42 AM
well no because when the season is over there will be 7 good teams in the playoffs and 1 steaming **** pile. but at the same time.. yes. because the Heat will cruise into the finals

Hawkeye15
04-10-2014, 09:46 AM
well no because when the season is over there will be 7 good teams in the playoffs and 1 steaming **** pile. but at the same time.. yes. because the Heat will cruise into the finals

I wouldn't call the Cats or Wizards "good". Hell the Nets have a negative point differential and are 8 games over .500. There are literally 2 teams in the east I would have confidence saying could make the playoffs out west. The rest would be lottery teams.

uptown0364
04-10-2014, 10:18 AM
The West is top heavy as well with only the Spurs, OKC, and maybe LAC (remains to be seen) as real threats to win it all. GS, Houston, Phoenix, Dallas are all fun to watch but they get exposed when they run into good coaching and defense in the Playoffs. Same would be said if they were in the East. There are about 4 to 5 teams in the NBA with a chance to win it all and the rest giving their fans false hope by beating the likes of the Lakers, Kings, Jazz, Nuggets, etc.

slashsnake
04-10-2014, 11:05 AM
The West is top heavy as well with only the Spurs, OKC, and maybe LAC (remains to be seen) as real threats to win it all. GS, Houston, Phoenix, Dallas are all fun to watch but they get exposed when they run into good coaching and defense in the Playoffs. Same would be said if they were in the East. There are about 4 to 5 teams in the NBA with a chance to win it all and the rest giving their fans false hope by beating the likes of the Lakers, Kings, Jazz, Nuggets, etc.

If the Nuggets are an easy win, why are they 16-14 against the East? Why can't the East take advantage of that bad team?

Those teams are beating up the east. You say good coaching will expose a team like Houston, but they look a LOT better than any eastern conference team outside of maybe Miami vs. those teams you talk about with good coaching and D.

If they are weak because they can only win in a western conference with games against the Lakers, Kings, Jazz and Nuggets, then why can't eastern teams do even that? Why is Houston a fake at 29-19 vs. the West when Chicago is 13-17 there? Don't they have the same chance to beat up on the same teams in those games, but fail miserably? Houston has its record because they are 27-19 against winning teams Miami is the only team in the East with 27 wins against good teams. Indiana is 22-18 vs. teams with winning records.

So Houston is going to be exposed because we've seen them win in a tougher conference vs. more good teams than anyone but Miami in the East? East teams may not get exposed. Toronto for example could go into the playoffs, win a series, and still be 18-25 vs. teams over .500 (worse than any of the top 9 teams in the west vs. good teams).

To me I would think if Houston doesn't make it, it is because there are a lot better teams in the West. I mean Toronto can't win more games vs. .500+ teams than Denver.

And you are right about only a handful of teams having a shot. But I think if you switched Houston, Portland, and GS to the East, you would have a lot more teams with a legit shot.

AddiX
04-10-2014, 11:19 AM
Yep, it's that time of the year where all the teams fans who didn't make playoffs in the West start to cry over being in the west.

Sorry Denver fans, you guys destroyed your team because you thought change would be a good thing.

Sorry Minnesota fans, Rubio and love are still overrated and can't lead that team anywhere. No more excuses.

Memphis, I liked you guys, but you guys got cheap and decided to run your team purely on stats, this is what you get.

And the rest of the teams that won't make playoffs, your just not relevant right now.

And you know what, none of it has to do with being in the west or the east, get over it.

mdm692
04-10-2014, 11:25 AM
The West is top heavy as well with only the Spurs, OKC, and maybe LAC (remains to be seen) as real threats to win it all. GS, Houston, Phoenix, Dallas are all fun to watch but they get exposed when they run into good coaching and defense in the Playoffs. Same would be said if they were in the East. There are about 4 to 5 teams in the NBA with a chance to win it all and the rest giving their fans false hope by beating the likes of the Lakers, Kings, Jazz, Nuggets, etc.

Pacers must have horrible coaching then cayse they have been getting destroyed by the West teams.

uptown0364
04-10-2014, 11:34 AM
West teams are better in the regular season because their tempo is fast and hard to gameplan against for 1 game. In a series everything slows down and coaching/defense matter. It's why Miami barely beat the Celtics and Pacers the past two years in the Playoffs but still won it all. Some would say their series against OKC was easier than the Boston/Indiana series 2 years ago. This year the West is obviously better but the mid-tier teams are regular season warriors and Playoff chokers.

Chrisclover
04-10-2014, 11:35 AM
Good to know that some teams are bouncing back, otherwise the retired Stern can not have a sound sleep.

uptown0364
04-10-2014, 11:47 AM
Also a team like the Griz always does good in the Playoffs because of defense but they don't always necessarily have the best regular season record.

SouthSideRookie
04-10-2014, 12:35 PM
West teams are better in the regular season because their tempo is fast and hard to gameplan against for 1 game. In a series everything slows down and coaching/defense matter. It's why Miami barely beat the Celtics and Pacers the past two years in the Playoffs but still won it all. Some would say their series against OKC was easier than the Boston/Indiana series 2 years ago. This year the West is obviously better but the mid-tier teams are regular season warriors and Playoff chokers.

There's a myth that teams that play Miami though are contenders. The reality is that the Pacers and everyone else in the east are just roadkill for whoever comes out of the west.

I'd love for Wade to be abducted by aliens and Lebron to totally lay down just to see one of these other frauds get to the finals and get trounced.

and if you really think Houston is a mid-tier team and would get exposed by an eastern team(not including Heat), you're out of your mind.

Nick O
04-10-2014, 01:53 PM
I think The Nets have surpassed the Pacers as the next favorite team to get to the finals.
I also think if Charlotte plays Indy in round one, there could be an upset brewing.

lol why? the nets can barely beat anyone on the road

Nick O
04-10-2014, 01:55 PM
I wouldn't call the Cats or Wizards "good". Hell the Nets have a negative point differential and are 8 games over .500. There are literally 2 teams in the east I would have confidence saying could make the playoffs out west. The rest would be lottery teams.

eh. the Raptors, Bulls and Nets are fully capable of beating good teams on any given night and have done so. i think theyre up there

KnickaBocka.44
04-10-2014, 03:00 PM
The Suns are fighting to hold on to the 8 spot in the West and would be fighting for the 1 seed with the Pacers and Heat if they were in the East, if you account for the difference in strength of schedule.

The Knicks should have been better, the Bulls losing Rose hurt them for a little, and the Hawks would have been better with Horford. The East has been disappointing this year, but I don't think it's any worse than it's been.

slashsnake
04-10-2014, 03:14 PM
West teams are better in the regular season because their tempo is fast and hard to gameplan against for 1 game. In a series everything slows down and coaching/defense matter. It's why Miami barely beat the Celtics and Pacers the past two years in the Playoffs but still won it all. Some would say their series against OKC was easier than the Boston/Indiana series 2 years ago. This year the West is obviously better but the mid-tier teams are regular season warriors and Playoff chokers.

Since coaching is more important in the playoffs Miami beat San Antonio? Nothing against Spoelstra, but that's quite a shot there against Popovich.

bringbackfredex
04-10-2014, 03:24 PM
College Basketball >>>>>>>>> NBA Basketball

Sadds The Gr8
04-10-2014, 03:25 PM
yes. the records were bound to even out later in the year when all the east teams played each other

Sadds The Gr8
04-10-2014, 03:27 PM
College Basketball >>>>>>>>> NBA Basketball

NBA Reg Season >>>>>>>>>> NCAA Reg Season

March Madness >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NBA Playoffs

Sadds The Gr8
04-10-2014, 03:28 PM
Yep, it's that time of the year where all the teams fans who didn't make playoffs in the West start to cry over being in the west.

Sorry Denver fans, you guys destroyed your team because you thought change would be a good thing.

Sorry Minnesota fans, Rubio and love are still overrated and can't lead that team anywhere. No more excuses.

Memphis, I liked you guys, but you guys got cheap and decided to run your team purely on stats, this is what you get.

And the rest of the teams that won't make playoffs, your just not relevant right now.

And you know what, none of it has to do with being in the west or the east, get over it.

Gasol missing like 20 games had way more to do with their dropoff. They'd probably be right where Portland is if he never got hurt

AddiX
04-10-2014, 04:40 PM
West teams are better in the regular season because their tempo is fast and hard to gameplan against for 1 game. In a series everything slows down and coaching/defense matter. It's why Miami barely beat the Celtics and Pacers the past two years in the Playoffs but still won it all. Some would say their series against OKC was easier than the Boston/Indiana series 2 years ago. This year the West is obviously better but the mid-tier teams are regular season warriors and Playoff chokers.

I've never noticed this, but it's a really good point.

The entire west almost has become a bunch of a run and gun 3 point chuckers, built great for regular season, but soft as all hell in the playoffs. East teams play the more grittier, physical, half court sets, which is highly beneficial in playoffs.


Gasol missing like 20 games had way more to do with their dropoff. They'd probably be right where Portland is if he never got hurt

I won't disagree, but injuries a part of the game, a lot of teams in the playoffs have had significant injuries. you get through it by having talent, not by dropping players and picking up players based purely on a PER stat.

king4day
04-10-2014, 04:50 PM
Amazing that one of Charlotte, Washington, or Toronto has a legit chance to get to the East Finals if Indy gets the 2 seed and can't turn things around. Unlikely but possible. Imagine Charlotte/Miami for the East crown?

Goose17
04-10-2014, 05:00 PM
East teams play the more grittier, physical, half court sets, which is highly beneficial in playoffs.

LOL... no they don't.

Indiana did early on, Chicago do. And Charlotte has for most of the season. That's it.

Memphis, San Antonio, OKC, Clippers and Warriors all play gritty and physical, especially defensively. Then there's Houston, Minnesota, Phoenix.


The East is just trash. Plain and simple.

slashsnake
04-10-2014, 05:05 PM
I've never noticed this, but it's a really good point.

The entire west almost has become a bunch of a run and gun 3 point chuckers, built great for regular season, but soft as all hell in the playoffs. East teams play the more grittier, physical, half court sets, which is highly beneficial in playoffs.


That is an interesting concept for sure. Granted the only check we have is the Heat vs team X in the finals. I almost wish we had a giant consolation round to see if that is true.

Of course the flip side is that while the East's play may be better for the post-season, the West's style of play throughout the regular season would mean the east team that could compete in the playoffs would be sitting in the 9th seed and not even making the post-season so we would never know.

IE... Bulls have the slow it down post-season style that makes them a very tough out in the playoffs, but if they were in the west, based on their records vs. conferences, their 41 wins that they would have would have them 6 games out of the post-season right now and in the 10th spot in the west.


So kind of like Utah last year or Memphis this year. Sure, their style of play might make them a better post-season team, but does it really matter if they can't win enough games in the reg season to even get there?

AddiX
04-10-2014, 05:14 PM
Memphis, San Antonio, OKC, Clippers and Warriors all play gritty and physical, especially defensively. Then there's Houston, Minnesota, Phoenix.
.
:laugh::laugh:

Lmao, this dude said warriors play gritty and physical, ESPECIALLY defensively, HAHA, I go to a golden state game and I can smell the vagina coming off that court, that team is so feminine.

Vampirate
04-10-2014, 09:03 PM
Point blank, Toronto is one of the strongest non contenders in the entire league.

slashsnake
04-11-2014, 03:14 PM
Point blank, Toronto is one of the strongest non contenders in the entire league.

1 game over .500 against the Western conference and 18-27 vs winning teams. They are 28-7 vs. bad (sub 500) teams and that is why they have a decent record.

I like what they have done. But Phoenix, Dallas, and Memphis win more with a higher winning percentage vs. better teams. They just get to play less games vs. bad teams.

Maybe we are different but I want to see a team win more games vs. the best in the NBA to call them a strong team, not beat up on sub .500 teams consistently

torocan
04-11-2014, 03:20 PM
1 game over .500 against the Western conference and 18-27 vs winning teams. They are 28-7 vs. bad (sub 500) teams and that is why they have a decent record.

I like what they have done. But Phoenix, Dallas, and Memphis win more with a higher winning percentage vs. better teams. They just get to play less games vs. bad teams.

Maybe we are different but I want to see a team win more games vs. the best in the NBA to call them a strong team, not beat up on sub .500 teams consistently

Yah, not sure I'm a fan of blending pre/post Rudy Gay records. The team has dramatically improved since the trade. To pretend that the pre-Gay team is related in any way to the current incarnation of the Raptors doesn't give them nearly enough credit in my view.

Goose17
04-12-2014, 06:04 AM
:laugh::laugh:

Lmao, this dude said warriors play gritty and physical, ESPECIALLY defensively, HAHA, I go to a golden state game and I can smell the vagina coming off that court, that team is so feminine.

Yeah? The only teams better defensively are Chicago and Indiana. Statistical fact.

Would love to see you say that to Bogut, Green, Dre, O'Neal etc. LMAO... fake internet tough guys are funny as hell.

ILLUSIONIST^248
04-12-2014, 06:06 AM
Yes they are, the worst it has ever been. The Heat have yet Another cakewalk to the finals.

AddiX
04-12-2014, 02:42 PM
Yeah? The only teams better defensively are Chicago and Indiana. Statistical fact.

Would love to see you say that to Bogut, Green, Dre, O'Neal etc. LMAO... fake internet tough guys are funny as hell.

What's that?

Mozgov just grabbed another rebound. Your team was to busy talking about which tampons they use to get physical on the glass.

Goose17
04-12-2014, 04:08 PM
What's that?

Mozgov just grabbed another rebound. Your team was to busy talking about which tampons they use to get physical on the glass.

LMAO. Yeah, I like how you didn't address the cold hard statistical fact that we are the third best defensive team in the league.

Using one game to make your opinion? Weak. You clearly don't understand basketball at all.

AddiX
04-12-2014, 04:54 PM
LMAO. Yeah, I like how you didn't address the cold hard statistical fact that we are the third best defensive team in the league.

Using one game to make your opinion? Weak. You clearly don't understand basketball at all.

You actually believe a stat that has gs and okc in the top 5 for defense?

I mean I understand u love your team and all, but u can't actually watch your team and believe your a chicago level defense.

Goose17
04-12-2014, 05:06 PM
I mean I understand u love your team and all, but u can't actually watch your team and believe your a chicago level defense.

You can't seriously watch us and play and think we're not while claiming to know anything about this sport.

Allphakenny1
04-12-2014, 06:20 PM
You can't seriously watch us and play and think we're not while claiming to know anything about this sport.

It takes years sometimes to change peoples opinion of a team, especially one that earned a reputation for not playing defense for so many years. I imagine he has not seen much of the Warriors being that they play so late at night on the east coast. If they keep up this style of play, their reputation will eventually change.

Pablonovi
04-13-2014, 01:09 AM
Fact: The West is 118 games better than the East, that's almost exactly 8 games better PER team.
Just counting the 8 Playoff teams in each conference, again it's almost exactly 8 games better PER team.
Seeing as teams play the majority of their games within their own conference; that 8 games better PER team is simply HUGE; the West has utterly destroyed the East.

Based on that fact:

A very strong case could be made that the worst 5 teams in the League are all in the East.

A good case could be made that only 2 East teams even deserve to be in the playoffs. And that 13 of the West teams should be in - that's how much better the West was this year over the East.

Personally, I wouldn't pick Indy to beat even the T-Wolves based on how they've been playing the second half of this season (taking into account the far superior opposition the T-Wolves have faced).

STRENGTH OF SCHEDULE (this measures how tough each team's opponents were)
THE BOTTOM 14 TEAMS ARE ALL EAST TEAMS (think about that, all 14 of them had easier schedules than the West team with the easiest schedule!!!). And the 15th team, Miami, had a schedule that is just a tiny bit harder than the 15th easiest schedule in the West.

In a word:
PATHETIC !
Link: http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/ranking/strength-of-schedule-by-team

So, YES THE EAST ABSOLUTELY SUCKS !

And the playoff system sucks along with it.

Pablonovi
04-13-2014, 01:35 AM
According to teamrankings.com
Link: http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/ranking/overall-power-ranking-by-team
The TOP 4 Teams are all in the West.
9 of the top 11 teams in the NBA are in the West (and Indy is just point 1 above #11 Memphis; 103.1 to 103.0) .
Given that Memphis has been playing vastly superior ball as compared to Indy; that's 9 of the top 10).
Further, 10 of the top 14 are in the West.

The worst four are all East; and the bottom two of which are horribly below everybody else (playing Phily and Milwaukee = almost guaranteed wins; while you rest your starters in the 4th quarter, if not the entire 2nd half).

dalton749
04-13-2014, 01:50 AM
Fact: The West is 118 games better than the East, that's almost exactly 8 games better PER team.
Just counting the 8 Playoff teams in each conference, again it's almost exactly 8 games better PER team.
Seeing as teams play the majority of their games within their own conference; that 8 games better PER team is simply HUGE; the West has utterly destroyed the East.

Based on that fact:

A very strong case could be made that the worst 5 teams in the League are all in the East.

A good case could be made that only 2 East teams even deserve to be in the playoffs. And that 13 of the West teams should be in - that's how much better the West was this year over the East.

Personally, I wouldn't pick Indy to beat even the T-Wolves based on how they've been playing the second half of this season (taking into account the far superior opposition the T-Wolves have faced).

STRENGTH OF SCHEDULE (this measures how tough each team's opponents were)
THE BOTTOM 14 TEAMS ARE ALL EAST TEAMS (think about that, all 14 of them had easier schedules than the West team with the easiest schedule!!!). And the 15th team, Miami, had a schedule that is just a tiny bit harder than the 15th easiest schedule in the West.

In a word:
PATHETIC !
Link: http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/ranking/strength-of-schedule-by-team

So, YES THE EAST ABSOLUTELY SUCKS !

And the playoff system sucks along with it.

Are you higher than me?

Pablonovi
04-13-2014, 07:51 AM
Are you higher than me?

Hey Dalton749,
You highlighted this from my post:
"A very strong case could be made that the worst 5 teams in the League are all in the East. "
And ask if I'm higher than you.

Consider that according to the site teamranking.com The 4 worst teams are all in the East (Phily, Mil., Orl. & Bos.). So, right there it's not much of a stretch at all to claim that a very strong case could be made that the 5th worst East team (Detroit) is worse than the worst West team (Utah). According to that site Detroit has a ranking number of 95.7 and Utah a 94.8 . Not much of a gap. Then consider each of their strength-of-schedule:
Detroit 29th toughest (2nd easiest) 99.3
Utah 16th toughest 100.7

Detroit has won 5 more games than Utah; but the gap in strength-of-schedule significantly reduces this. i.e., if both teams had played with the same strength-of-schedule; they would have had very similar records.

So, my point is clearly made. No?

As to higher than you (hehe)
I smoked the good stuff decades ago but developed an allergic reaction. Never liked drinking. Never injected.
So I'm substance free. On the other hand, my baby never can get enough and never says "no". So, in that respect I might be higher than just about anybody (including you?)

DODGERS&LAKERS
04-13-2014, 03:33 PM
I think they should do away with the conferences. Every team should play 24 teams 3 times, and 5 teams twice. That would give everyone 82 games. They should rotate who you will play twice every year and they should announce that who those five teams are at least 10 years in advance. That way the league couldn't set it up that any particular team gets to play an easier schedule by not playing the better teams three times.

They would have to rotate who gets to play 2 out of 3 games at home per year. There wont be completely even schedules but it would be a lot better than what they have now. Then the top 16 teams should get.

The Memphis Grizzlies should not be getting a draft pick with 50 wins when the Hawks don't get in the lottery just to be slaughtered by the Heat/Pacers. The Hawks need more help than the Grizzlies do and they should not be punished just because they play in a weaker conference.

Pablonovi
04-13-2014, 03:52 PM
I think they should do away with the conferences. Every team should play 24 teams 3 times, and 5 teams twice. That would give everyone 82 games. They should rotate who you will play twice every year and they should announce that who those five teams are at least 10 years in advance. That way the league couldn't set it up that any particular team gets to play an easier schedule by not playing the better teams three times.

They would have to rotate who gets to play 2 out of 3 games at home per year. There wont be completely even schedules but it would be a lot better than what they have now. Then the top 16 teams should get.

The Memphis Grizzlies should not be getting a draft pick with 50 wins when the Hawks don't get in the lottery just to be slaughtered by the Heat/Pacers. The Hawks need more help than the Grizzlies do and they should not be punished just because they play in a weaker conference.

Hey DODGERS&LAKERS,
If fairness is an important goal, then various would-be / potential technical problems can be "overcome" to achieve it. There's a lot to be said for your proposal, a lot!

I've ONLY tended to shy away with such a "complete overhaul" because the more one tries to change the long-standing rules; the more resistance one encounters (generally) and thus, the less likely is the chance of success. Still, I'd rather see your "system" than any of the various options I proposed (over the last 9 months here at PSD); because your "system" is just flat out superior when it comes to fairness.

Mine only are "better" because there would seem to be a (much better) chance of them being adopted.

Nice proposal !

Pablonovi
04-13-2014, 04:34 PM
For some reason I'm not myself completely sure of, IF/when the Lakers can't win the Chip; I find myself rooting for the Heat to do so, in this case to three-peat. (Maybe it's a personal attraction towards "dynasties"?)

BUT, and it's a huge BUT,
I just abhor the idea that, while 8 very good teams in the West beat each other up before one finally makes it to the Finals, the Heat are just gonna basically sleep-walk. This is so way unfair. The Heat should end up way more rested = no good.

In my opinion, only ONE East team even deserves to be in the Playoffs; and that's Miami. The Pacers have played sub-.500 ball for basically the second half of the season; they are UNWORTHY. The other six teams would not even qualify 8th in the West (if their schedules were swapped for the same-ranked West team counter-parts). So Miami should end up facing THREE WALK-OVERS to get to the Finals. Just Sucks!

P.S. Even if, for whatever reason, any of their Playoff series seems competitive; that'd be ONLY because they've gotten (somewhat naturally) lackadaisical / sloppy OR a long-shot combo of very one-sided luck and/or injuries.

I guess I just have to switch who I'm rooting for ... whoever comes out of the West, I'm for them!

DODGERS&LAKERS
04-13-2014, 04:34 PM
Hey DODGERS&LAKERS,
If fairness is an important goal, then various would-be / potential technical problems can be "overcome" to achieve it. There's a lot to be said for your proposal, a lot!

I've ONLY tended to shy away with such a "complete overhaul" because the more one tries to change the long-standing rules; the more resistance one encounters (generally) and thus, the less likely is the chance of success. Still, I'd rather see your "system" than any of the various options I proposed (over the last 9 months here at PSD); because your "system" is just flat out superior when it comes to fairness.

Mine only are "better" because there would seem to be a (much better) chance of them being adopted.

Nice proposal !

I agree that my proposal would likely be ignored because as you said, people are opposed to drastic changes. But I think it would solve a lot of issues like having unfair/uninteresting matchups like the Heat, Hawks. I don't think anyone is going to sit and watch those games unless you are a fan of those teams. The Pacers and Bobcats might not even be watched by their own fans. This in my opinion is devastating for the NBA. You should not have playoff matchups that are pretty much already decided before the first tip off of game one. Your viewership, interest, and most importantly your credibility as a professional sport take a hit.

It would solve the issue of inferior teams getting worse picks then better teams because of conference imbalance. The Hawks wanted to get into the lottery and were unable to due to their being so many teams in their conference below them.

It would give us a better idea of how good/great players are when they are all facing roughly the same competition. It would give GM's a better idea of who they should sign instead of taking a guy that feasted and inflated his numbers against weaker competition. Also, it would be a lot better for fans to have statistical player comparisons between player A and player B when they actually played the same teams for the majority of their schedule.

Forgive me but I did not read the whole thread. Are your proposals in this thread? If so I will go back and take a look at them. If not can you outline some of your ideas?

Pablonovi
04-13-2014, 04:57 PM
I agree that my proposal would likely be ignored because as you said, people are opposed to drastic changes. But I think it would solve a lot of issues like having unfair/uninteresting matchups like the Heat, Hawks. I don't think anyone is going to sit and watch those games unless you are a fan of those teams. The Pacers and Bobcats might not even be watched by their own fans. This in my opinion is devastating for the NBA. You should not have playoff matchups that are pretty much already decided before the first tip off of game one. Your viewership, interest, and most importantly your credibility as a professional sport take a hit.

It would solve the issue of inferior teams getting worse picks then better teams because of conference imbalance. The Hawks wanted to get into the lottery and were unable to due to their being so many teams in their conference below them.

It would give us a better idea of how good/great players are when they are all facing roughly the same competition. It would give GM's a better idea of who they should sign instead of taking a guy that feasted and inflated his numbers against weaker competition. Also, it would be a lot better for fans to have statistical player comparisons between player A and player B when they actually played the same teams for the majority of their schedule.

Forgive me but I did not read the whole thread. Are your proposals in this thread? If so I will go back and take a look at them. If not can you outline some of your ideas?

Hey DODGERS&LAKERS,
What an outstanding post.

In this and another very similar current-running thread I have mostly pointing out the need for major change BASED on how unbalanced things are between the two Conferences.

A really well-argued debate happened, just prior to this season's beginning, (one might say, anticipating THIS season to a "T"). The OP of the thread was myself; and it included a Poll that was narrowly voted down.
The thread's Title was:
"Hey, NBA Commissioner; How About Putting The Best 16 Teams In The Playoffs? "

Here's the link to page one of that thread:
http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?830369-Hey-NBA-Commissioner-How-About-Putting-The-Best-16-Teams-In-The-Playoffs

N.B. The OP Post lays out various "lesser" options (lesser compared to a total revamp, like yours) that would definitely improve fairness (though far from completely) while having a decent chance to be approved.

If that first, OP, Post is the only one of the 81 posts (so far) you read - you'll definitely get the idea.
imo the whole short thread is worth the read - because people did a really fine job of arguing the two main sides of the debate; and the various subsidiary issues involved.

Tony_Starks
04-13-2014, 05:37 PM
A very legitimate argument can be made the 9th best team in the West has been more impressive than any team in the east based off strength of schedule.

JayW_1023
04-14-2014, 11:20 AM
It's been like this ever since 2001, the West has been dominant. It's unbelievable really we're still at this. I wonder what the crux of it is.

joshhorvath
04-14-2014, 11:36 AM
Just throwing this out here, the Raptors would be 1gm back of memphis for the 8th seed and with a win against the bucks would only be 1 game back of GS.

C_Mund
04-14-2014, 12:14 PM
If my memory serves me correct, the Raps swept Memphis, Minny and Dallas this year while splitting against OKC and GS. We went 0-4 against SA and LAC but played a couple pretty close games (double OT against the Cips I think?)
Yeah, the East is pretty bad, and I'm not touting us as a true contender, but I'd say that calling anybody outside of OKC, SA and LAC in the West a contender is a pretty big reach.

SluggeR
04-14-2014, 12:48 PM
The title of the thread "Is the East Really THAT Bad".

My answer would be NO. This thread is not about comparing the East vs. the West, it's simply talking about the East. The East playoff teams are all competitive teams and it seems all but one, will finish over .500. Even the playoff teams that are hovering around .500 are young teams that are learning how to win and sustain success. The Hawks are rebuilding, but they were a above .500 team at the All-Star break. The fact people want to bring up the non-playoff teams is silly to me. Everybody and they momma know they are tanking to improve their draft position, so why even put them in the conversation.

The West have a load of very good teams, but people tend to forget a lot of those teams have sucked for years before their current runs. At the end of the day, I'm looking forward to a very competitive playoffs on both sides. The East are a couple of drafts away from being just as competitive than the West..

east fb knicks
04-14-2014, 04:44 PM
the d rose injury hurt the east but the reason it looks so lop sided is cuz almost allof the teams in the est we tanking this year the sixers bucks magic Celtics pistons were all tanking this year while only the jazz are tanking out west meaning teams in the west and teams like the bulls raps and pacers all have inflated records beating up on all those teams i think next year we will see a little more balance an i still think the west is better but just thinking about a team dam near winning 50 games and still missing the playoffs is ridiculous

Pablonovi
04-15-2014, 09:21 AM
A very legitimate argument can be made the 9th best team in the West has been more impressive than any team in the east based off strength of schedule.

Hey Tony_Starks,
Exactly. According to teamrankings.com, ONLY Miami in the East Conf. is not amongst the 15 teams with the toughest strength-of-schedule rankings. And they have only barely had a harder schedule than the 2 West teams with the easiest strength-of-schedule rankings.

This is extra-ordinarily unfair AND bad for the NBA. It's almost like in soccer, where the teams are in different divisions based on their quality of play from the past. The NBA's West would be the TOP Division, and with the exception of Miami, the NBA's East would CLEARLY be a lower quality division.

I've pointed out that each West team in, on average, almost exactly 8 full games better than its correspondingly ranked East team (i.e, Spurs Vs Indy, OKC Vs Heat, Clips Vs East #3, etc.) thru ALL 15 teams. This is HUGE because teams only play some one third of their games Vs the other conference. The West, (year after year) pounds on the East. This year it's circa 60%, with the West winning 3 out of every 5 games, almost 120 more West wins than East wins for this season). That's nothing less than a mockery.

If you go team by team, with very few exceptions, each team has won games at a higher percentage against East teams than against West teams.

And then there's the case of the East's bottom teams.
Phily and Mil. in particular have not really fielded NBA-quality teams. Their first-strings would be second-string on most other teams. Then, teams like Orl and Bos. and Det. have been only marginally better. All 5 of those teams, if switched added to the West would be, far and away the bottom 5 in the West. Yikes!

Pablonovi
04-15-2014, 09:36 AM
Let's take two examples:
The West's #9 and #10 teams.
Whoever finishes 9th in the West, would have easily finished third in the East (and have been clearly better than Indy, the East's #2, during the entire 2nd half of the season). Yet they don't even get in the playoffs, while 6-7 East teams do.

And the T-Wolves, they'll end at circa .500 . In the West this is FAR superior than half the Playoff teams in the East.

But let's focus on what this does to some players.
Take K. Love. Everybody says (amateurs and experts alike) that it is a HUGE mark against him (as against K. Garnett, for example, in the past) that K. Love can't "take his team to the playoffs". But switch the T-Wolves between Conferences, and they'd qualify year after year. AND K. Love's reputation would be distinctly higher.

Take Dirk. The very year after he was absolutely fantastic in leading the Mavs to the Chip; he still played great but didn't even make the Playoffs. Why? The Mavs are in the West. This year too, he's played great, yet they've barely qualified for the Playoffs.

People say, "Well, if you don't make the Playoffs, you don't deserve to be in them." NOT true if you're stuck in the far-superior half of a super-UNbalanced league.

People say, "The unbalance fluctuates." But the FACTS belie this. This West Utter-Dominance Over The East is DECADES-LONG, and with no end in sight.

People say, "None of this matters anyway. The lowest seeds never make it to the Finals." BUT, making it to the Finals is not the only good reason to try to make the Playoffs. You DO make more money. You DO help your reputation (and get better contracts in the future). You DO enjoy the bleep out of thrill of the more-intense level of play against higher-level competition.

AND, Remember The Rockets! They DID win the Chip from a #5 Seed. Years ago, the Wash. Bullets, iirc, were Finalists after a barely winning regular season record. It is NOT impossible for even a #8 Seed to make the Finals. They could, for example, lose 3 games by 20+ points each and win 4 by less than 5 points each (including some overtimes). Especially if their team is more healthy than the higher-ranked teams they face. AND, more so, if some of the higher-ranked teams they would have faced, get upset in earlier rounds.

Fairness to teams and players is important in very many ways. MORE important than archaic Playoff-qualifying rules that are highly unfair.

P.S. This is NOT a new stand/position on my part. Back, a number of decades ago, I didn't like it that the West was clearly inferior to the East. True my Lakers had a far easier road to the Finals; BUT Wilt, year after year after year, didn't even make it to the Finals, despite his teams being better in the Regular Season than the Lakers, because he couldn't quite get past the ALL-STAR Celtics team. His teams deserved it more than the Lakers did in a number of those years.

Rapsfanforlife
04-15-2014, 10:27 AM
Statistically, the East is weaker - it is glaringly obvious. However, now that the playoffs are about to start, the stats can be thrown out the window - its about who can lock down their defence, who can exploit the others weaknesses. I think it will be okc/miami final, and I believe that Miami will win again - BUT, in the East anyone from 1-5 seeds have a chance to go all the way to the finals.

I guess we will see after the finals who is the weaker division. :)

KnicksorBust
04-15-2014, 10:44 AM
No. They only have one fake playoff team and that is hardly a tragedy.

ILLUSIONIST^248
04-15-2014, 12:13 PM
Yes,the east is one notch below pathetic.

slashsnake
04-15-2014, 11:04 PM
People say, "Well, if you don't make the Playoffs, you don't deserve to be in them." NOT true if you're stuck in the far-superior half of a super-UNbalanced league.

People say, "The unbalance fluctuates." But the FACTS belie this. This West Utter-Dominance Over The East is DECADES-LONG, and with no end in sight.

People say, "None of this matters anyway. The lowest seeds never make it to the Finals." BUT, making it to the Finals is not the only good reason to try to make the Playoffs. You DO make more money. You DO help your reputation (and get better contracts in the future). You DO enjoy the bleep out of thrill of the more-intense level of play against higher-level competition.

Fairness to teams and players is important in very many ways. MORE important than archaic Playoff-qualifying rules that are highly unfair.

P.S. This is NOT a new stand/position on my part. Back, a number of decades ago, I didn't like it that the West was clearly inferior to the East. True my Lakers had a far easier road to the Finals; BUT Wilt, year after year after year, didn't even make it to the Finals, despite his teams being better in the Regular Season than the Lakers, because he couldn't quite get past the ALL-STAR Celtics team. His teams deserved it more than the Lakers did in a number of those years.

good points.. but in the end, even by your own admission, those teams out of the playoffs are what? 10th best? 12th best in the league? Not a travesty if a middle of the pack NBA team isn't a playoff team to me. This isn't a top 5 team in MLB missing the playoffs here which has happened. This is a middle of the pack team. Sure it is unfair. So is life and a million things about the NBA.

Is it unfair that when a player dominates they create rules to impede his dominance? Unfair to defensive players that offense sells and the NBA wants a more fun looking game? Unfair to tough guys that everyone calls everything a flagrant now? Unfair to really bad teams who weren't tanking that past teams that have tanked cost them a #1 pick with the lottery system? Unfair that teams can go over the cap? Unfair that teams that make more money have to have a cap?

I thought the Bullets to the Finals was a funny excuse though. They won their division and got in the playoffs in the East at 42-40, while in the west the 48 win Suns and 45 win Pistons didn't make the playoffs. And they made it to the finals as you say proving they were a good choice for post-season play.

Fair or not, that is how sports work. It isn't always fair. It isn't fair clearly better teams get booted from the NCAA basketball tourney because tiny conferences get guaranteed spots. It isn't fair that NFL teams can make the playoffs over other teams with better records. Same for the MLB. Same for the NHL. It isn't fair that you can finish in NCAA football with a better record than someone else, but because your conference is deemed "weaker" they get the national championship shot. Or that you can end up playing in your home town for the championship and have that called a "neutral site". But it IS sports. You are still given a shot. Your road may be tougher, but there's no rule that every team has to be on an even playing field.

THE PLAYOFFS AREN'T FAIR. You give the best team an EXTRA advantage by letting them play on their home court more? You give them the easiest path to a championship every single year? You throw out what a team did over 82 games with one injury at the end. You want fair, crown the regular season team with the best record the NBA champ. Make the team that goes through the long haul of the season and comes out the best the champ. Don't condense that down to now 1/10th of what you've done matters for everything, where one shot can determine who is the best. Fair is letting 82 games prove that isn't it? Fair was the NFL just calling the team with the best record at the end of the year the NFL Champion. But fair doesn't sell tickets. Fair doesn't have all three texas teams fighting for something every single year. Fair doesn't ensure that when the lakers and Celtics meet in the playoffs, it WILL be in the finals and you WILL watch.

To me, I will gladly give up being fair to mediocre teams for more compelling basketball. I will gladly watch the best team in the NBA not win a championship because their point guard tore his ACL in the playoffs. It's unfair sure.

I do fully agree with one part. This is becoming quite a trend with the West's dominance. I would be fine with an idea to bring about better parity there. But I don't think that doing away with conferences and divisions is the way to do that. Instead of two playoff races with 6 teams jockeying for a spot nearing the end of the regular season you have 1 playoff race with 3 teams involved. Instead of rivalries created by divisional games for local fans you just have the national ones. Fair doesn't make a better regular season and that is 75% of the NBA year.

But if it stays this way, I do want to see something help level the playing field some. Be it a changeup of what teams are in what conferences, or whatever the idea may be. But something that is shown to have a lasting effect. I don't want to see teams change and then 20 years from now we have the same issue of a 10-15 year dominance and time to shake it up again. I also don't want to see coast teams be treated unfairly (ie, losing conferences would be a HUGE unfair boon to teams like OKC over Portland for example when it comes to making all those eastern seaboard road trips).

joshhorvath
04-15-2014, 11:41 PM
be it as it may... Raptors are 14-9 against the west since 'the trade'.. judging by that, Raptors would be a decent team in the west

slashsnake
04-16-2014, 12:58 AM
be it as it may... Raptors are 14-9 against the west since 'the trade'.. judging by that, Raptors would be a decent team in the west

They had some nice wins for sure, Houston even without dwight, Golden State. Memphis..

But since the trade though they've gotten a really high amount of bad teams on their schedule. They played a lot more playoff and WC playoff teams before the trade.

Remember they are still 16-25 vs. above .500 teams this year. Worse than Indiana, Miami, Brooklyn, Chicago and Charlotte in the East. Worse than all the playoff teams and Phoenix in the West.

I would just say that to win in the west, being really good vs. bad teams and bad vs. good teams isn't going to get you to the playoffs.

torocan
04-16-2014, 08:35 AM
They had some nice wins for sure, Houston even without dwight, Golden State. Memphis..

But since the trade though they've gotten a really high amount of bad teams on their schedule. They played a lot more playoff and WC playoff teams before the trade.

Remember they are still 16-25 vs. above .500 teams this year. Worse than Indiana, Miami, Brooklyn, Chicago and Charlotte in the East. Worse than all the playoff teams and Phoenix in the West.

I would just say that to win in the west, being really good vs. bad teams and bad vs. good teams isn't going to get you to the playoffs.

To be fair, you just can't blend their pre and post Rudy Gay records together.

The Raptors are 42-21 since trading Rudy Gay, so saying that their record vs .500+ teams is 16-25 is misleading. They are not the same team with Rudy Gay as they are without Rudy Gay.

Now if you want to argue that their record is a bit inflated due to a stronger schedule pre-Rudy Gay, that's fine. However 16-25 really doesn't tell you anything unless you split out the West/East pre and post RG.

pebloemer
04-16-2014, 08:44 AM
To be fair, you just can't blend their pre and post Rudy Gay records together.

The Raptors are 42-21 since trading Rudy Gay, so saying that their record vs .500+ teams is 16-25 is misleading. They are not the same team with Rudy Gay as they are without Rudy Gay.

Now if you want to argue that their record is a bit inflated due to a stronger schedule pre-Rudy Gay, that's fine. However 16-25 really doesn't tell you anything unless you split out the West/East pre and post RG.

If you want that stat: 2-10 vs. above .500 teams pre-Rudy and 14-15 vs. above .500 teams post-Rudy.

14-15 vs. above .500 opponents is comparable with Chicago, Portland and Brooklyn. Far better than Charlotte, Dallas, Memphis and Golden State.

I mean in a thread talking about how bad the East is, "beating bad teams" as an argument really invalidates the success of Memphis, Dallas, Portland, Phoenix and Golden State. The biggest difference in record between those teams and Brooklyn/Chicago/Toronto (post Gay) is simply that the Western teams did a better job at beating teams below .500.

Records against teams below .500.

Portland: 33-6
Memphis: 30-8
Dallas: 30-9
Phoenix: 29-9
Golden State: 31-6

For the record, I'm not arguing that the East is as good as the West, simply stating that the other side of the coin needs to be looked at as well. Comments like "Toronto/Brooklyn/Chicago wouldn't make the playoffs in the West," are inconclusive in my opinion. The West is certainly a far better conference when we compare 3/4/5 seeds in one conference to the 5-9 seeds in another, but the turnaround of those three teams has certainly made the conference look far less bad than it did earlier in the year.

Pablonovi
04-16-2014, 12:02 PM
good points.. but in the end, even by your own admission, those teams out of the playoffs are what? 10th best? 12th best in the league? Not a travesty if a middle of the pack NBA team isn't a playoff team to me. This isn't a top 5 team in MLB missing the playoffs here which has happened. This is a middle of the pack team. Sure it is unfair. So is life and a million things about the NBA.

Is it unfair that when a player dominates they create rules to impede his dominance? Unfair to defensive players that offense sells and the NBA wants a more fun looking game? Unfair to tough guys that everyone calls everything a flagrant now? Unfair to really bad teams who weren't tanking that past teams that have tanked cost them a #1 pick with the lottery system? Unfair that teams can go over the cap? Unfair that teams that make more money have to have a cap?

I thought the Bullets to the Finals was a funny excuse though. They won their division and got in the playoffs in the East at 42-40, while in the west the 48 win Suns and 45 win Pistons didn't make the playoffs. And they made it to the finals as you say proving they were a good choice for post-season play.

Fair or not, that is how sports work. It isn't always fair. It isn't fair clearly better teams get booted from the NCAA basketball tourney because tiny conferences get guaranteed spots. It isn't fair that NFL teams can make the playoffs over other teams with better records. Same for the MLB. Same for the NHL. It isn't fair that you can finish in NCAA football with a better record than someone else, but because your conference is deemed "weaker" they get the national championship shot. Or that you can end up playing in your home town for the championship and have that called a "neutral site". But it IS sports. You are still given a shot. Your road may be tougher, but there's no rule that every team has to be on an even playing field.

THE PLAYOFFS AREN'T FAIR. You give the best team an EXTRA advantage by letting them play on their home court more? You give them the easiest path to a championship every single year? You throw out what a team did over 82 games with one injury at the end. You want fair, crown the regular season team with the best record the NBA champ. Make the team that goes through the long haul of the season and comes out the best the champ. Don't condense that down to now 1/10th of what you've done matters for everything, where one shot can determine who is the best. Fair is letting 82 games prove that isn't it? Fair was the NFL just calling the team with the best record at the end of the year the NFL Champion. But fair doesn't sell tickets. Fair doesn't have all three texas teams fighting for something every single year. Fair doesn't ensure that when the lakers and Celtics meet in the playoffs, it WILL be in the finals and you WILL watch.

To me, I will gladly give up being fair to mediocre teams for more compelling basketball. I will gladly watch the best team in the NBA not win a championship because their point guard tore his ACL in the playoffs. It's unfair sure.

I do fully agree with one part. This is becoming quite a trend with the West's dominance. I would be fine with an idea to bring about better parity there. But I don't think that doing away with conferences and divisions is the way to do that. Instead of two playoff races with 6 teams jockeying for a spot nearing the end of the regular season you have 1 playoff race with 3 teams involved. Instead of rivalries created by divisional games for local fans you just have the national ones. Fair doesn't make a better regular season and that is 75% of the NBA year.

But if it stays this way, I do want to see something help level the playing field some. Be it a changeup of what teams are in what conferences, or whatever the idea may be. But something that is shown to have a lasting effect. I don't want to see teams change and then 20 years from now we have the same issue of a 10-15 year dominance and time to shake it up again. I also don't want to see coast teams be treated unfairly (ie, losing conferences would be a HUGE unfair boon to teams like OKC over Portland for example when it comes to making all those eastern seaboard road trips).

Hey slashsnake,
Did you really have to crush me, grind me into the dirt, demoralize the bleep out of me???
I was feeling kind of proud of myself (heck I even got some compliments about some of my posts).
And then, this! You got no mercy? (hehe)

You not only made a number of decent points; but your post was (way) longer than mine.
Couldn't you at least leave me a little pride (with my title of: "The Long-Winded Poster"?

P.S. At least we agree that better parity (lasting as long as possible) is a good idea.
And, hey, I said it before you did; so there! hehe

slashsnake
04-17-2014, 06:18 PM
Hey slashsnake,
Did you really have to crush me, grind me into the dirt, demoralize the bleep out of me???
I was feeling kind of proud of myself (heck I even got some compliments about some of my posts).
And then, this! You got no mercy? (hehe)

You not only made a number of decent points; but your post was (way) longer than mine.
Couldn't you at least leave me a little pride (with my title of: "The Long-Winded Poster"?

P.S. At least we agree that better parity (lasting as long as possible) is a good idea.
And, hey, I said it before you did; so there! hehe

Sorry, was bored and work and got going...

I want parity. I don't mind a season here and there where this happens, but right now it is getting out of hand. I just don't want to see some massive jumble, losing conferences and divisions, nothing to play for but a 1-16 bracket. I think there has to be a better way.

Pablonovi
04-18-2014, 12:14 AM
Sorry, was bored and work and got going...

I want parity. I don't mind a season here and there where this happens, but right now it is getting out of hand. I just don't want to see some massive jumble, losing conferences and divisions, nothing to play for but a 1-16 bracket. I think there has to be a better way.

Hey slashsnake,
How embarrassing. I was just joking when I said "Did you really have to crush me ..." etc.
So you saying "sorry" embarrasses me for my poorly-done joking around. I'm much more likely to make (gentle) fun of myself; then try to make fun of anybody else. Here, I was actually complimenting you.

Oh well, I grew up having what I call a "friendly-sarcastic" style; and it tends to get me into trouble because as often as not, people "don't get it". That's certainly on me. I reign it in; and then, out it comes again.