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Grizzly Adams
04-02-2014, 04:52 PM
http://www.sbnation.com/lookit/2014/4/2/5574006/tim-duncan-is-better-than-most-teams-have-been-since-1946

Sorry if this has been posted elsewhere, but I found this to be very interesting. I know this doesn't tell the complete story of their success, but Tim Duncan has helped create an astounding winning culture for the Spurs. While Pop + cast are also fairly responsible for this statistic, it wouldn't be possible without Timmy. It will be a sad day when he calls it a career. Will we ever see this again? To put it in perspective, LeBron James has contributed to 7 50+ seasons, and Dirk has 11 with the limelight of his career behind him.

5ass
04-02-2014, 05:25 PM
Duncan's a beast, but I have to give a lot of credit to pop and the FO for keeping them healthy.

*Superman*
04-02-2014, 05:41 PM
Holy ****. GOAT.

king4day
04-02-2014, 05:44 PM
To Spurs fans, before Tim Duncan, where did you feel the franchise was headed? You were probably expecting a lesser draft pick. Who were you hoping to draft if you didn't get a crack at Duncan? Did you feel you were close to being a contender without him?

smith&wesson
04-02-2014, 06:09 PM
http://www.sbnation.com/lookit/2014/4/2/5574006/tim-duncan-is-better-than-most-teams-have-been-since-1946

Sorry if this has been posted elsewhere, but I found this to be very interesting. I know this doesn't tell the complete story of their success, but Tim Duncan has helped create an astounding winning culture for the Spurs. While Pop + cast are also fairly responsible for this statistic, it wouldn't be possible without Timmy. It will be a sad day when he calls it a career. Will we ever see this again? To put it in perspective, LeBron James has contributed to 7 50+ seasons, and Dirk has 11 with the limelight of his career behind him.

the credit goes to the system and that system is all pops.

if kg was drafted to the spurs and duncan was drafted to the twolves, we would be sitting here talking about the winning prestige of kevin garnet.

smith&wesson
04-02-2014, 06:11 PM
were talking about a system that has 8-9 rotational players every year and still the spurs are contenders every year. guys the spurs are all about the system, not any one individual player.

MrfadeawayJB
04-02-2014, 06:23 PM
No disrespect to Duncan, prob the greatest pf of all time, but it's the system

smith&wesson
04-02-2014, 06:33 PM
No disrespect to Duncan, prob the greatest pf of all time, but it's the system

+1

All-In
04-02-2014, 07:00 PM
No disrespect to Duncan, prob the greatest pf of all time, but it's the system

It isn’t just the system…maybe for the reg season ok but remember the Richard Jefferson, DeJuan Blair, Antonio McDyess, Keith Bogans, Roger Mason jr years between 09-11 they didn’t make it past the second round any of those years…players executing the system matters just as much…Compare Boris Diaw, Patty Mills, Danny Green, Tiago, Kawhi and Belinelli to the 09-11 supporting cast….huge difference in skill…supporting cast execution is highly important for a consistent career like Duncan’s

JEDean89
04-02-2014, 07:10 PM
Duncan has probably the best demeanor out of any player in the NBA. He doesn't care about the max money, doesn't care about the big market, doesn't care about the fame, he just wants to win. Ever player on that team respsects the **** out of Duncan and he is an extension of Popovich on the floor. It's the key to the Spurs, because no one has the credentials to argue with those 2, if you ******** on that team you're gone. If every team's best player was on the same page as their coach like Pop and Dunc, the league would be so toight.

kdspurman
04-02-2014, 07:12 PM
the credit goes to the system and that system is all pops.

if kg was drafted to the spurs and duncan was drafted to the twolves, we would be sitting here talking about the winning prestige of kevin garnet.

While maybe true in recent years, during his prime the system was a lot of "4 down" which essentially is getting Duncan the ball in the post and letting him go to work, getting doubled and hitting the 3 point shooters, etc... Duncan's back-to-basket game was superiors to KG.

No disrespect to KG, but Duncan's personality and the way he carries himself and allowing Pop to actually coach him is often overlooked. Its easy to say KG would have had as much success or more but there's more to Duncan's success than just the numbers. His relationship with Pop is a big factor. Not to mention the kind of locker room guy and leader he is.

smith&wesson
04-02-2014, 07:27 PM
While maybe true in recent years, during his prime the system was a lot of "4 down" which essentially is getting Duncan the ball in the post and letting him go to work, getting doubled and hitting the 3 point shooters, etc... Duncan's back-to-basket game was superiors to KG.

No disrespect to KG, but Duncan's personality and the way he carries himself and allowing Pop to actually coach him is often overlooked. Its easy to say KG would have had as much success or more but there's more to Duncan's success than just the numbers. His relationship with Pop is a big factor. Not to mention the kind of locker room guy and leader he is.

If you ask me who I think is better between kg and duncan I will honestly say duncan. But this isnt a duncan vs garnet discussion. My point, simply was that if you took duncan off that team and replaced him with KG the spurs would still at least have multiple championships.

simply put, while duncan is among the best big men ever to play the game, he was fortunate that his talent wasnt wasted on a team like the twolves, raptors, who have been historically bad compared to a team that has a great system in place like the spurs.

Being mentored by david robinson, playing in pops system, being surrounded by the likes of parker, and notoriously unselfish ginobli taking a 6th man role all these years etc... many, many factors played a role in having a favorable situation with the spurs. Its not just on duncan.. 4 championships were won trully as a team and I give alot of that credit to pops and the system he put in place for these players to thrive in.

its the system.

would duncan look as good if he was drafted by the bucks ? personal stat wise, yes! but championship pedigree wise, hell no!

smith&wesson
04-02-2014, 07:44 PM
not to take any credit away from duncan. I still consider him the best pf of all time. But the spurs are the true definitio of a "team" and if you want to give credit to one particular person I think the pecking order starts with pops who created that atmosphere.

Also I think pops is the greatest coach of all time along with red Auerbach and then we can talk about phil and pat.

flea
04-02-2014, 07:48 PM
It's funny how differently people view the careers of dominant bigs like Duncan and Olajuwon versus the lesser careers of dominant wings. If you're a wing, you're clutch, a go-to guy, a winner, a competitor, etc. If you're a big, you play in a great system.

3RDASYSTEM
04-02-2014, 07:57 PM
http://www.sbnation.com/lookit/2014/4/2/5574006/tim-duncan-is-better-than-most-teams-have-been-since-1946

Sorry if this has been posted elsewhere, but I found this to be very interesting. I know this doesn't tell the complete story of their success, but Tim Duncan has helped create an astounding winning culture for the Spurs. While Pop + cast are also fairly responsible for this statistic, it wouldn't be possible without Timmy. It will be a sad day when he calls it a career. Will we ever see this again? To put it in perspective, LeBron James has contributed to 7 50+ seasons, and Dirk has 11 with the limelight of his career behind him.

Well of course DUNCAN is one of the best to ever do it at his position and his 2 way game make him one of the best ever all positions but let me rile up a few feathers since all I hear on This forum is weak era this and weak era that

DUNCAN won in 99' at the dawn of the 'weak' era, all I heard when AI/KIDD went to finals how weak the east was and the west was the real finals so it was a cake walk since them lakers/kings were right there also in west during that weak era, if the east is weak then the league is weak as a whole and vice versa no matter the era/time

now they are playing in what BARKLEY and many others have viewed as weakest era ever or in a long while so its even more amazingly easy for the SPURS to do what they did since 99' weak era began, its amazing no doubt but its still the same for them winning/coaching wise but you just trade lakers/kings for thunder/clipps/rockets now In todays 'weaker' version and you cant replace HOF'er in TD, but you can replace the others with LEONARD/GREEN and still hang on to whats left of MANU/PARKER since they did come up big time since teaming up with TD

go SPURS

Meaze_Gibson
04-02-2014, 08:00 PM
It's funny how differently people view the careers of dominant bigs like Duncan and Olajuwon versus the lesser careers of dominant wings. If you're a wing, you're clutch, a go-to guy, a winner, a competitor, etc. If you're a big, you play in a great system.
Quoted for Truth. Tim Duncan was more clutch than kg could have ever imagined. So to say the pedigree would have been the same is ridiculous. He was more coachable than Shaq could have imagined. Was more selfless than Jordan could have imagined. That humble, hard working, dominating alpha male quality is one of a kind and shouldn't be given to Pop. There is not one person who can replicate all that TD has done for spurs not vice versa

Meaze_Gibson
04-02-2014, 08:01 PM
repost

Meaze_Gibson
04-02-2014, 08:08 PM
repost

Grizzly Adams
04-02-2014, 08:15 PM
I definitely agree that it is the system. That is what I meant when I said that it doesn't tell the whole story in my initial post. Duncan, Pop, and management are all major factors for this success. I just wanted to illustrate how they have built and sustained a winning culture in their organization, with Tim Duncan being the leader of the team for many years.

KnicksorBust
04-02-2014, 09:03 PM
This has become thee season to give a blow job to the Spurs.

IversonIsKrazy
04-02-2014, 10:26 PM
Duncan & Popvich are the greatest player-coach combo of all-time, not MJ-Jackson imo. Amazing statistic. If KG was on SPurs, sure he prlly would've won but honestly, I dont think KG-lead spurs would be as dominant, especially not for as many years. I feel that Timmy allows himself to be coachable, I feel KG would clash. Timmy is the greatest PF of all-time, and he's always been underrated in the sense of GOAT. And Pops is Top 3 Coach of all-time. Simply amazing.

TylerSL
04-02-2014, 11:03 PM
The Spurs winning is not just a system. If it was a system then why hasn't all 29 other teams adopted the "system" so they can win 50 games for 15+ years in a row?

Grizzly Adams
04-03-2014, 12:09 AM
The Spurs winning is not just a system. If it was a system then why hasn't all 29 other teams adopted the "system" so they can win 50 games for 15+ years in a row.

I get what you mean. The way I feel the Spurs have created a system is the combination of the talent that management surrounds Duncan, Parker, and Ginobili with that will buy into the coaching style of Pop and thrive in his coaching system.

FlashBolt
04-03-2014, 01:46 AM
I don't know why KG gets hate when mentioned along Tim Duncan. KG was very close to TD in his absolute peak. Heck, I might go as far to say he was better at one point. TD is the greatest PF but I can't say it isn't because of Pop. When you're still winning 17 years later, it's because you're part of a team with a sick management. I always like to use Cleveland and KG's Wolves as an example because those were teams that really had nothing going for them at all. Front offices for those teams are just doing this for a hobby. Teams like Spurs, Celtics, LAL, Mavs. They try and win it actively.

SPURSFAN1
04-03-2014, 01:53 AM
KG already broke down. Tim Duncan looks like he can play 3 more years.

FlashBolt
04-03-2014, 01:55 AM
KG already broke down. Tim Duncan looks like he can play 3 more years.

Well, KG was a more aggressive player and had to do much more during his tenure as a Wolves. Tim Duncan plays in a system that is built to last. He's one hell of a player. I think many people forget that he's the best PF come playoff time. I can't remember a single PF I would take over Duncan in a playoff series. That's also currently.

effen5
04-03-2014, 02:35 AM
Honestly if I had a choice between Duncan, Lebron, or Kobe, I'd choose Duncan 9/10 times.

Duncan is a ****in monster.

arlubas
04-03-2014, 07:50 AM
Can't we just all agree that it's a combination of one of the best players ever, one of the (if not the absolute) best coaches ever and a front office that always aims for the top, instead of settling for high draft picks and nothing much other than that? The Spurs were just lucky enough to land probably the best PF ever, surround him with a VERY capable supporting cast, have a wizard in coaching plus be consistent in their tries to be a competitor year in and year out.

kdspurman
04-03-2014, 09:02 AM
From the moment Duncan stepped on the floor he was a force on both ends. Like I said before, he was the system during his prime years. This new system with Parker running the show allows him to not be the focal point, but remain effective offensively. (though every now and then we'll see him go to work in the post depending on the match up) Defensively, he's just a dam good/smart player and understands his limitations and what he needs to do. At this point, it's a combination of his high level BB IQ and Pop's minute time management/system.

ldawg
04-03-2014, 09:40 AM
Spurs and Duncan suffer from being Boring and a not being in a big Market. However Spurs has been the most consistent team. Any player seem to be able to and there and play and Pop maximize their talent. Just Look at Indy about to self destruct. IMO Duncan has been player of the decade followed by Kobe. Its like Spurs were old 7 years ago and they still kicking butt. If Duncan only smiled more and get a professional hair cut maybe more people would have notice the Spurs more.

ldawg
04-03-2014, 09:42 AM
This is the result of a team that prides itself on Defense. You become consistent and have a shot to win every game on the road or at home.

ThuglifeJ
04-03-2014, 09:49 AM
Overrated

ThuglifeJ
04-03-2014, 09:49 AM
kidding .

ldawg
04-03-2014, 10:07 AM
kidding .oh

beyourself
04-03-2014, 10:40 AM
Many star players won't accept the system role. So to say it's all system is stupid. Tim Duncan willingly bought into the system that Popovich runs. And a lot of people are ignorant about the Spurs. They just know that the last few years they've been a fast paced, wide open offensive team. And they have been stacked with good role players.

But when Duncan was in his prime many years ago the system was Duncan. You guys get that? It was throw the ball to Duncan in the post. Let him create for himself or others. Meanwhile he took the least talented team to a championship in the last 20 years.

And on defense Duncan was flat out incredible. He rebounded, he stole, he blocked shots. He altered shots, he virtually took over the game on defense.

Tim Duncan literally was the Spurs for years.

So screw off with the system.

FlashBolt
04-03-2014, 03:15 PM
Many star players won't accept the system role. So to say it's all system is stupid. Tim Duncan willingly bought into the system that Popovich runs. And a lot of people are ignorant about the Spurs. They just know that the last few years they've been a fast paced, wide open offensive team. And they have been stacked with good role players.

But when Duncan was in his prime many years ago the system was Duncan. You guys get that? It was throw the ball to Duncan in the post. Let him create for himself or others. Meanwhile he took the least talented team to a championship in the last 20 years.

And on defense Duncan was flat out incredible. He rebounded, he stole, he blocked shots. He altered shots, he virtually took over the game on defense.

Tim Duncan literally was the Spurs for years.

So screw off with the system.

No it wasn't... The system is what made them successful. You're telling me if you put Duncan in D'Antoni's system then he would be just as good? Duncan was just the perfect player for the perfect system. It's why they succeeded and still succeed. You don't just be a winner for 17 years. There's obviously intangibles that follow.

kdspurman
04-03-2014, 03:37 PM
No it wasn't... The system is what made them successful. You're telling me if you put Duncan in D'Antoni's system then he would be just as good? Duncan was just the perfect player for the perfect system. It's why they succeeded and still succeed. You don't just be a winner for 17 years. There's obviously intangibles that follow.

In Duncan's early years, he really was the system. The offense ran through him. & No matter what team Duncan walked into, he would have been been a force on both ends. He was NBA ready from the moment he stepped on the court.

Now without Pop, it's doubtful he is able to keep up this high level of play this far into his career. Pop has done an incredible job of preserving him and managing his minutes. Also, the Spurs coaching staff did a fine job of working with him on his jumper and improving his FT shooting. The credit goes to both obviously. They made each other better. But Duncan was something special, and most basketball people knew that when he was drafted.

SPURSFAN1
04-03-2014, 03:40 PM
The early Tim Duncan years was all him. All HIM. After 2008 and afterwards was mostly teamwork between tim manu tony and the system. No need to take away from a juggernaut of a player. Once in a lifetime player.

SPURSFAN1
04-03-2014, 03:43 PM
Pop's best play was iso Tim Duncan. That has nothing to do with the system and everything to do with the player. But pop knew it was guaranteed points. None of this inefficient junk you see from players nowadays.

Hawkeye15
04-03-2014, 03:45 PM
Pop's best play was iso Tim Duncan. That has nothing to do with the system and everything to do with the player. But pop knew it was guaranteed points. None of this inefficient junk you see from players nowadays.

iso Duncan? No. When Duncan was in his peak, they basically dumped it into him to get the defense moving, and more times than not, it ended up in a kick out, rotation, and either a 3 or an open drive.

Isolation ball is the most inefficient ball possible. Duncan was amazing, one of the top 7-8 players ever to me, but he really did benefit from his coaching staff, GM, and surrounding players. But, hasn't almost any other top 20 player ever?

SPURSFAN1
04-03-2014, 03:56 PM
iso Duncan? No. When Duncan was in his peak, they basically dumped it into him to get the defense moving, and more times than not, it ended up in a kick out, rotation, and either a 3 or an open drive.

Isolation ball is the most inefficient ball possible. Duncan was amazing, one of the top 7-8 players ever to me, but he really did benefit from his coaching staff, GM, and surrounding players. But, hasn't almost any other top 20 player ever?

Duncan was great at ISO but when double or triple teamed he knew whether to take the shot or kick out to a wide open player for a three. The system was all him.

Hawkeye15
04-03-2014, 04:12 PM
Duncan was great at ISO but when double or triple teamed he knew whether to take the shot or kick out to a wide open player for a three. The system was all him.

the system was not all him. I don't care who you are, you are not winning without really good players around you.

They played inside out, because yes, if you didn't send some help, he would beat you in the post. That isn't isolation dude. That is going inside-out. And the reason it worked so well? Because you had guys like TP and Manu who could catch and get to the rim immediately, and shooters galore on rotation passes. Give Duncan a bunch of crap, and he isn't winning.

But again, most, if not all, of the top 20 players ever, have had a lot of help to get them where they are. You just make it seem like Duncan could have taken any team to the promise land, which isn't true.

Bruno
04-03-2014, 04:13 PM
the spurs are spectacular. but...

regular season wins are overrated. its a nice accomplishment and shows the greatness of their longevity and consistency but at the end of the day it comes down to championships. they have four, that's what should be of emphasis. i guarantee you timmy would trade all eight of these 50 win seasons where he got booted in the first or second round for one more ring every day.

SPURSFAN1
04-03-2014, 04:16 PM
the system was not all him. I don't care who you are, you are not winning without really good players around you.

They played inside out, because yes, if you didn't send some help, he would beat you in the post. That isn't isolation dude. That is going inside-out. And the reason it worked so well? Because you had guys like TP and Manu who could catch and get to the rim immediately, and shooters galore on rotation passes. Give Duncan a bunch of crap, and he isn't winning.

But again, most, if not all, of the top 20 players ever, have had a lot of help to get them where they are. You just make it seem like Duncan could have taken any team to the promise land, which isn't true.

Didn't Tim Duncan win in 2003 with no allstars? Dude he was the system. Yeah we also had good players, but what team doesn't? Manu and tony would grow into themselves but Tim Duncan has been carrying the spurs for the longest time.

kdspurman
04-03-2014, 04:27 PM
the spurs are spectacular. but...

regular season wins are overrated. its a nice accomplishment and shows the greatness of their longevity and consistency but at the end of the day it comes down to championships. they have four, that's what should be of emphasis. i guarantee you timmy would trade all eight of these 50 win seasons where he got booted in the first or second round for one more ring every day.

While true that Timmy would trade any 50 win seasons for a ring (like any player would), I would say all those teams who were good at one point but then went years of being really bad (IE: Nets, Knicks, Pistons, etc... in recent years) would gladly trade their poor seasons for a season to win 50 games and at least have the opportunity to play for a ring.

Even when the Spurs were not a team built for a title run, they were still better than most teams & at least given the opportunity to play in the post season and not tanking and looking completely pathetic out there. Fact is, no matter how great you are, you aren't winning a title every season. But I guarantee Kobe/Wade/Nash/T-Mac/Melo/CP3 etc... would gladly trade some of their losing seasons for a 50+ win record and a chance to play for a ring.

I don't see how winning 50+ games for 17 years straight (counting the first lockout season) could be overrated. It's a great accomplishment and a testament to great consistency by the organization. Especially an organization that can't attract big names to make it easier on themselves like an LA or NY. I don't see any way to spin that. No one wins titles every year. I'd rather be competitive and see them at least be in the conversation for a title than have them look as bad as some of these teams today.

Hawkeye15
04-03-2014, 04:29 PM
the spurs are spectacular. but...

regular season wins are overrated. its a nice accomplishment and shows the greatness of their longevity and consistency but at the end of the day it comes down to championships. they have four, that's what should be of emphasis. i guarantee you timmy would trade all eight of these 50 win seasons where he got booted in the first or second round for one more ring every day.

you are never going to let it go that Pops sat Duncan at the end of game 6 haha. Love it

kdspurman
04-03-2014, 04:32 PM
Didn't Tim Duncan win in 2003 with no allstars? Dude he was the system. Yeah we also had good players, but what team doesn't? Manu and tony would grow into themselves but Tim Duncan has been carrying the spurs for the longest time.

That 03 team was one that people go back and see Manu/Parker's names, but they were not the players they are today. In the playoffs, he lead the team in points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and really controlled the game on both ends. I mean in the closing game, Parker was so bad that Speedy Claxton finished the game.

Bruno
04-03-2014, 04:49 PM
you are never going to let it go that Pops sat Duncan at the end of game 6 haha. Love it

never. the trophy was rolled out onto the floor man. it was all but engraved, they gave it away. :confused:

but i wasn't intentionally referring to that- I was referring to their first and second round exits since 1998.

Bruno
04-03-2014, 04:56 PM
While true that Timmy would trade any 50 win seasons for a ring (like any player would), I would say all those teams who were good at one point but then went years of being really bad (IE: Nets, Knicks, Pistons, etc... in recent years) would gladly trade their poor seasons for a season to win 50 games and at least have the opportunity to play for a ring.
i'd agree. i'm just bein' a schmohawk.


Even when the Spurs were not a team built for a title run, they were still better than most teams & at least given the opportunity to play in the post season and not tanking and looking completely pathetic out there. Fact is, no matter how great you are, you aren't winning a title every season. But I guarantee Kobe/Wade/Nash/T-Mac/Melo/CP3 etc... would gladly trade some of their losing seasons for a 50+ win record and a chance to play for a ring.
sure. although a GM might argue that getting Bynum and sacrificing a 2004-2005 disaster in the process could have been worth it. players, never.


I don't see how winning 50+ games for 17 years straight (counting the first lockout season) could be overrated. It's a great accomplishment and a testament to great consistency by the organization. Especially an organization that can't attract big names to make it easier on themselves like an LA or NY. I don't see any way to spin that. No one wins titles every year. I'd rather be competitive and see them at least be in the conversation for a title than have them look as bad as some of these teams today.

their consistency has made it harder on them. maybe if they sucked a little once every 5 or 6 years they could have landed another lottery player who could have pushed them over the top year after year in the post- Duncan minute reduction era. essentially- you are right, I'm just making the point that I think their consistency has hurt their chances to land that other player to keep them dominant. Leonard kind of becoming that guy is a big part of what brought them back to the championship. i'm half serious.

you wouldn't have traded 2010-2011 for a lottery pick?

i love your sig, and i kind of love the spurs too.

kdspurman
04-03-2014, 05:07 PM
i'd agree. i'm just bein' a schmohawk.


sure. although a GM might argue that getting Bynum and sacrificing a 2004-2005 disaster in the process could have been worth it. players, never.



their consistency has made it harder on them. maybe if they sucked a little once every 5 or 6 years they could have landed another lottery player who could have pushed them over the top year after year in the post- Duncan minute reduction era. essentially- you are right, I'm just making the point that I think their consistency has hurt their chances to land that other player to keep them dominant. Leonard kind of becoming that guy is a big part of what brought them back to the championship. i'm half serious.

you wouldn't have traded 2010-2011 for a lottery pick?

i love your sig, and i kind of love the spurs too.

Ha, thanks man.

It's just hard for me to root for them to lose. I mean, that year they lost to Memphis that you're speaking of. Who could have guessed Manu would have broke his elbow the last game of the season? That team wasn't going to win it all. But do they get ousted in the first round with a healthy Manu? probably not, though purely speculation on my part.

And you're definitely right, the consistency does make it harder cause there are certain expectations by the fans/media etc... It's like you start hearing the Spurs are still great, but then see they haven't won a title in 7 years. (and in basketball years it's not that long) But there's a huge level of respect between Duncan and the Spurs FO. Especially in his latter years, they are not going to have a Tim Duncan lead team tanking. So they just try and make due with what they have and try and find the right pieces. There's a lot of star power in the league, and that star power just is not attracted to the city of San Antonio.

As a fan of them, I think most Spurs fans are just enjoying the ride while it lasts. I am glad I haven't had to watch a tank-fest and rooting for them to lose. A lottery pick is not a guarantee for anything, especially with these college players not always being fully NBA ready.

Bruno
04-03-2014, 05:11 PM
Ha, thanks man.

It's just hard for me to root for them to lose. I mean, that year they lost to Memphis that you're speaking of. Who could have guessed Manu would have broke his elbow the last game of the season? That team wasn't going to win it all. But do they get ousted in the first round with a healthy Manu? probably not, though purely speculation on my part.

And you're definitely right, the consistency does make it harder cause there are certain expectations by the fans/media etc... It's like you start hearing the Spurs are still great, but then see they haven't won a title in 7 years. (and in basketball years it's not that long) But there's a huge level of respect between Duncan and the Spurs FO. Especially in his latter years, they are not going to have a Tim Duncan lead team tanking. So they just try and make due with what they have and try and find the right pieces. There's a lot of star power in the league, and that star power just is not attracted to the city of San Antonio.

As a fan of them, I think most Spurs fans are just enjoying the ride while it lasts. I am glad I haven't had to watch a tank-fest and rooting for them to lose. A lottery pick is not a guarantee for anything, especially with these college players not always being fully NBA ready.

dude i agree with you. i'm just being a schmohawk. the majority of me accepts that the majority of what I'm saying is bs. :laugh2:

enjoy the ride man, its brilliant basketball. "boring"spurs basketball is one of the NBAs greatest myths.

kdspurman
04-03-2014, 05:21 PM
dude i agree with you. i'm just being a schmohawk. the majority of me accepts that the majority of what I'm saying is bs. :laugh2:

enjoy the ride man, its brilliant basketball. "boring"spurs basketball is one of the NBAs greatest myths.

:cheers:

I know we're usually on the same page w/stuff. Hopefully they'll redeem themselves after last year.

Heediot
04-03-2014, 05:42 PM
If I had to start a team from scratch that included all players that have ever played and I had the 2nd overall pick (MJ being the 1st overall), I would pick Duncan.

Hawkeye15
04-03-2014, 06:32 PM
That 03 team was one that people go back and see Manu/Parker's names, but they were not the players they are today. In the playoffs, he lead the team in points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and really controlled the game on both ends. I mean in the closing game, Parker was so bad that Speedy Claxton finished the game.

that playoff run is for sure the most dominant Duncan ever played, but the Spurs big man rotation just destroyed it that playoff run as a whole too. Parker was terrible, I agree. But they were getting all world play from Duncan, and great minutes from Malik and D-Rob, Bowen was playing very well on both ends, and they were playing the Nets in the finals, they didn't need to be hitting on all cylinders.

The Mavs series, Jax and Parker both played well.

The Lakers series their backcourt was very good, and Bowen was able to force Kobe into a lot of hero ball, his raw numbers don't reflect how inefficient Bowen was able to make him.

The Suns series was just pure balance all around.

Not saying Duncan wasn't fantastic in that run, but saying he didn't have pretty awesome help at any point of his career, along with one of the top coaches ever, is just not true.

Hawkeye15
04-03-2014, 06:32 PM
never. the trophy was rolled out onto the floor man. it was all but engraved, they gave it away. :confused:

but i wasn't intentionally referring to that- I was referring to their first and second round exits since 1998.

which ones in particular?

flea
04-03-2014, 06:35 PM
Duncan's not a horrible choice for 2nd overall of any player, you'd have to go big. Olajuwon is the only guy that rivals in my mind (and I don't think it was a bad choice picking him over Michael the first time still) but it's hard to argue with Duncan's sustained excellence from day 1. He was a complete player when he came into the league - something most players can't say - and he still is. If you wanted to find a weakness it would be free throw shooting, but even then he shoots around what Lebron does.

Hawkeye15
04-03-2014, 06:37 PM
Duncan's not a horrible choice for 2nd overall of any player, you'd have to go big. Olajuwon is the only guy that rivals in my mind (and I don't think it was a bad choice picking him over Michael the first time still) but it's hard to argue with Duncan's sustained excellence from day 1. He was a complete player when he came into the league - something most players can't say - and he still is. If you wanted to find a weakness it would be free throw shooting, but even then he shoots around what Lebron does.

my top 10 is littered with big men, and the only 2 that I would have an issue with anyone putting Duncan over are KAJ and Wilt. He is grouped together with Shaq/Dream to me.

flea
04-03-2014, 06:43 PM
Yeah I should have mentioned KAJ as well among the 3. I don't know about Wilt in today's game, but then you actually watched him when he was playing.

Hawkeye15
04-03-2014, 06:49 PM
Yeah I should have mentioned KAJ as well among the 3. I don't know about Wilt in today's game, but then you actually watched him when he was playing.

I didn't watch him play, but I have seen enough video to see maybe the greatest athlete that ever lived. He was so much stronger and faster than anyone, and he would probably still be today.

beyourself
04-03-2014, 07:31 PM
In Duncan's early years, he really was the system. The offense ran through him. & No matter what team Duncan walked into, he would have been been a force on both ends. He was NBA ready from the moment he stepped on the court.

Now without Pop, it's doubtful he is able to keep up this high level of play this far into his career. Pop has done an incredible job of preserving him and managing his minutes. Also, the Spurs coaching staff did a fine job of working with him on his jumper and improving his FT shooting. The credit goes to both obviously. They made each other better. But Duncan was something special, and most basketball people knew that when he was drafted.

Exactly. The system was give Duncan the ball in the post. If people mean he benefited from the system because his teammates passed him the ball then yes.

The system was, give Duncan the ball.

Chronz
04-03-2014, 07:47 PM
At what point do we consider Duncan above Kareem?

kdspurman
04-03-2014, 07:55 PM
that playoff run is for sure the most dominant Duncan ever played, but the Spurs big man rotation just destroyed it that playoff run as a whole too. Parker was terrible, I agree. But they were getting all world play from Duncan, and great minutes from Malik and D-Rob, Bowen was playing very well on both ends, and they were playing the Nets in the finals, they didn't need to be hitting on all cylinders.

The Mavs series, Jax and Parker both played well.

The Lakers series their backcourt was very good, and Bowen was able to force Kobe into a lot of hero ball, his raw numbers don't reflect how inefficient Bowen was able to make him.

The Suns series was just pure balance all around.

Not saying Duncan wasn't fantastic in that run, but saying he didn't have pretty awesome help at any point of his career, along with one of the top coaches ever, is just not true.

Yea no arguments about any of that. But i guess the point is throughout that run there was no consistent #2 option. So each series someone else stepped up, but Duncan was the guy every series.

beyourself
04-03-2014, 07:56 PM
Yea no arguments about any of that. But i guess the point is throughout that run there was no consistent #2 option. So each series someone else stepped up, but Duncan was the guy every series.

I'm not a Spurs fan, but that was the most dominant display of basketball by an individual player that I have ever seen.

flea
04-03-2014, 07:58 PM
At what point do we consider Duncan above Kareem?

I would already probably do it, to be honest. If we count acting skill though then Roger Murdoch wins 10 times out of 10.

Hawkeye15
04-03-2014, 07:59 PM
At what point do we consider Duncan above Kareem?

I never will. But, that is me.

Hawkeye15
04-03-2014, 08:02 PM
Yea no arguments about any of that. But i guess the point is throughout that run there was no consistent #2 option. So each series someone else stepped up, but Duncan was the guy every series.

In the Phx series, he was actually meh by his standards. The rest of the playoffs, he killed it.

That is what I mean though, and this goes for every great player who has won chips. They have all, and I mean every single one of them, had the benefit of role players stepping up and contributing. It is the difference between winning a ring and going home early. For instance, when I hear someone say LeBron's legacy was saved by Ray Allen, I laugh my *** off. Every great needed a role player to make a spectacular play at some point in their playoff runs.

Hawkeye15
04-03-2014, 08:03 PM
I'm not a Spurs fan, but that was the most dominant display of basketball by an individual player that I have ever seen.

91' Jordan says hello...

beyourself
04-03-2014, 08:05 PM
In the Phx series, he was actually meh by his standards. The rest of the playoffs, he killed it.

That is what I mean though, and this goes for every great player who has won chips. They have all, and I mean every single one of them, had the benefit of role players stepping up and contributing. It is the difference between winning a ring and going home early. For instance, when I hear someone say LeBron's legacy was saved by Ray Allen, I laugh my *** off. Every great needed a role player to make a spectacular play at some point in their playoff runs.

People will remember LeBron being bailed out because that was the greatest shot in basketball history and he didn't make it. His teammate did.

So I get where you are coming from, but that is the shot right there.

beyourself
04-03-2014, 08:05 PM
91' Jordan says hello...

I didn't watch that. The best I've seen which is around 98 forward is Duncan 03 playoffs.

Hawkeye15
04-03-2014, 08:14 PM
People will remember LeBron being bailed out because that was the greatest shot in basketball history and he didn't make it. His teammate did.

So I get where you are coming from, but that is the shot right there.

and I have seen Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, Steve Kerr, and countless other role players hit game winners in monster games as well.

What's funny is, most people won't remember why Miami had a shot to win anyways. It was because LeBron went nova in the 4th quarter.

Hawkeye15
04-03-2014, 08:17 PM
I didn't watch that. The best I've seen which is around 98 forward is Duncan 03 playoffs.

I think LeBron's 13' playoff run is stronger as well personally. Duncan was awesome, but I can probably come up with a few other playoff runs better. The list would be incredibly short though haha.

beyourself
04-03-2014, 08:18 PM
and I have seen Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, Steve Kerr, and countless other role players hit game winners in monster games as well.

What's funny is, most people won't remember why Miami had a shot to win anyways. It was because LeBron went nova in the 4th quarter.

That shot by Ray Allen is going to stand out beyond all of them. It was the real deal.

Shlumpledink
04-03-2014, 08:28 PM
That tim duncan draft was a one person draft, spurs are really lucky to get the pick. Also very lucky that a lot of teams passed on tony parker, because he has been major for them.

Hawkeye15
04-03-2014, 09:04 PM
That shot by Ray Allen is going to stand out beyond all of them. It was the real deal.

to you. I view it as another incredible shot by a role player to save the day.

NBA_Starter
04-03-2014, 09:09 PM
The guy is just a winner period.

beyourself
04-03-2014, 09:21 PM
to you. I view it as another incredible shot by a role player to save the day.

Nah son. To a lot of people. This is one will stand the test of time. I guarantee it.

flea
04-03-2014, 09:41 PM
I think LeBron's 13' playoff run is stronger as well personally. Duncan was awesome, but I can probably come up with a few other playoff runs better. The list would be incredibly short though haha.

No way. '12 was a better playoff run for Lebron, statistically anyway.

Duncan '03: 24.7/15.4/5.3 with 3.3 blocks on 58% TS
James '13: 25.9/8.4/6.6 with 1.8 steals on 59% TS

And for fun because wow

Olajuwon '94: 28.9/11/4.3 with 4 blocks and 1.7 steals on 57% TS

Duncan and Olajuwon both anchored against their defenses against pretty rough conferences at the time. Lebron was the most important defender all season for the Heat but not in the Pacers or Spurs series (I would argue it was Bosh's defense that keyed those series wins). Before that, the east is a cakewalk, which I guess could be factored into why James had lower PPG (pretty much the same MP though for all 3).

Hawkeye15
04-03-2014, 10:56 PM
Nah son. To a lot of people. This is one will stand the test of time. I guarantee it.

we don't need to agree dad.

Hawkeye15
04-03-2014, 10:57 PM
No way. '12 was a better playoff run for Lebron, statistically anyway.

Duncan '03: 24.7/15.4/5.3 with 3.3 blocks on 58% TS
James '13: 25.9/8.4/6.6 with 1.8 steals on 59% TS

And for fun because wow

Olajuwon '94: 28.9/11/4.3 with 4 blocks and 1.7 steals on 57% TS

Duncan and Olajuwon both anchored against their defenses against pretty rough conferences at the time. Lebron was the most important defender all season for the Heat but not in the Pacers or Spurs series (I would argue it was Bosh's defense that keyed those series wins). Before that, the east is a cakewalk, which I guess could be factored into why James had lower PPG (pretty much the same MP though for all 3).

I also factor in LeBron's 13' playoff run for the following 2 reasons:

Bosh was **** in the Pacers series

Wade was **** the entire playoffs.

JEDean89
04-04-2014, 12:15 AM
^^^ even though they had to go through a sub .500 bucks team and a d-rose less bulls while duncan led them through the west?

torocan
04-04-2014, 12:18 AM
At what point do we consider Duncan above Kareem?

Personally, I don't think you ever can.

I think Duncan's career as a whole is definitely better and going to get even better. And his strong fundamentals and unbelievable longevity at such a high level potentially make him the greatest PF to ever play the game.

However, Dream was unique. He not only had great fundamentals (though probably a bit below Duncan's), but he had artistry and creativity in the post that we've never seen since. Dream just did things on the floor that nobody has been able to duplicate.

In my mind, Dream was Mozart in the post. He did things on the floor that I'm not sure I'll be lucky enough to see again.

As for Duncan and Pops, their synergy is the stuff of fantasies. Duncan would have been great no matter where he went, but we have to also remember that Pops started as the GM of the Spurs and was instrumental in building the teams around him. Some years they didn't have all stars to help him, but as always Pops was able to find perfect role players and get the most out of them.

17 years later Pops still surrounds Duncan, TP and Manu with perfect role players.

Without Pops, I don't think Duncan wins as many titles. I also would bet dollars to donuts that Duncan would never have anything approaching the longevity in the NBA or consistent high level performance that he gives to Pops. His minutes management, talent development and roster preparation alone is SO far ahead of most of the other coaches that it's ridiculous.

Does anyone see Duncan playing for 17 years at such a high level under ANY coach except Pops? I sure don't.

Pops also has talents that go far beyond coaching on the floor. Interview after interview, former and current players rave about their personal relationship with Pops, how they love him personally and would run through brick walls for him.

Yes, Pops is great at finding players to "buy in" to his system, but players are also just as much buying into Pops the man.

I'm not old enough to have seen Red Auerbach work. However, I count my blessings that I've lived long enough to see the Giants of coaching like Phil Jackson, Riley and Pops.

Still, Duncan is definitely going down as one of the all time greats, and possibly the greatest to ever play at his position. That's one heck of an achievement considering his career isn't even over yet...

Hawkeye15
04-04-2014, 12:20 AM
^^^ even though they had to go through a sub .500 bucks team and a d-rose less bulls while duncan led them through the west?

then we should discredit any player from the east over the past 18 years....

I mean that seriously.

mrblisterdundee
04-04-2014, 04:52 AM
I think the Duncan-Popovich Dynasty is the fifth-best in NBA history, and Popovich deserves inclusion in any talk about Duncan's success. The Kareem-Magic-Riley dynasty is third or fourth.

3RDASYSTEM
04-04-2014, 07:33 AM
No disrespect to Duncan, prob the greatest pf of all time, but it's the system

one of the best 2 way players ever has to be the engine and at worst the backbone or is that the same? anyways had DUNCAN been drafted by the C's you would be saying the same thing, its the system...its not like we are talking about T BRADY who was a backup qb before becoming this so called greatest qb and BB had won rings pre BRADY with giants as DCoordinator , TD was tanked for so he was positioned to be drafted by this so called system who had no rings or finals trips prior to adding TD, spurs also had a aging HOF'er who was just injured at that time being also which just made it a twin tower duo with good balance of vet/youth which got 2 titles in like TD first 5yrs in league, but I get it its the system, yeah the TD-3RDASYSTEM

Coaches win because of the players they inherit/acquire, R AUERBACH wasn't winning because of coaching system, more like because of his gm/control the talent in regions type system, he still needed RUSSELL(original TD version basically) and others for his so called system to work, so to me RUSS was the system, just like RILEY with SHOWTIME, it wasn't his system as more to say it was MAGICs system, same with NASH/MIKE D in phx, the system cant go without that systematic horse, so the special player is that system because it takes a special player to be just that and TD is one of those players

POP system is to pass the ball around, pick and roll and ,TD/3pt game, and it use to be all defense and TD/3pt game, half court style,now today era POP just adjusted to more offense side of ball which negates the drop on overall defense because they are blowing teams out on regular basis for most part for a long while also, and all of that went thru one of the best 2 way players of all time, exchange TD for DIRK/MOURNING and we are not having the same convo, trust me the system wouldn't win 4 rings in same span with those 2 as the anchor

players like WILT/RUSS/ALCINDOR/BARKLEY/ZEKE/MAGIC/IVERSON/JORDAN/SHAQ/KIDD and others like TD are the system, they are that special in my bball debate book

Snapshot
04-04-2014, 04:07 PM
I hate the Spurs and everything about em....from Duncan's doofy ***, to Manu's bald spot, to Pops' crater face...**** the Spurs, they overrated.

17 straight 50 win seasons and u only have 4 rings to show? LMAO...sounds like a lot of underachieving/disappointing seasons to me.

LA (Kobe era) has 5 rings to show and they didnt even have as many 50 win seasons....not to mention all there Finals wins were like taken candy from a baby...8th seed Knicks, weak *** Nets, Detroit was meh (most comp), and LB's Cavs lolololol...the 1st time they ever had real comp in the Finals....they lost....sad.

Also, the notion that TD is the best PF of all time is ridiculous, rings aside he definitely wasnt better than Malone or CB....and him and KG is a toss up...he's top 5 PF all time but get all the way the **** outta here with that #1 crap.

kdspurman
04-04-2014, 04:10 PM
I hate the Spurs and everything about em....from Duncan's doofy ***, to Manu's bald spot, to Pops' crater face...**** the Spurs, they overrated.

17 straight 50 win seasons and u only have 4 rings to show? LMAO...sounds like a lot of underachieving/disappointing seasons to me.

LA (Kobe era) has 5 rings to show and they didnt even have as many 50 win seasons....not to mention all there Finals wins were like taken candy from a baby...8th seed Knicks, weak *** Nets, Detroit was meh (most comp), and LB's Cavs lolololol...the 1st time they ever had real comp in the Finals....they lost....sad.

Also, the notion that TD is the best PF of all time is ridiculous, rings aside he definitely wasnt better than Malone or CB....and him and KG is a toss up...he's top 5 PF all time but get all the way the **** outta here with that #1 crap.

:win:

Snapshot
04-04-2014, 04:12 PM
And they arent winning another chip for a very long time....if they win this year i'll take a permanent ban from this site, im that confident these bums wont win a damn thing, just another disappointing season that will end before June tbh.

flea
04-04-2014, 04:27 PM
Great job, P&GRealist.