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tr3ymill3r
03-27-2014, 04:16 PM
This is purely for the LeBron haters out there. What if Steve Kerr missed his wide open free throw line jumper that was hand fed to him from Michael Jordan. Did MJ make the right basketball play? Yes.

Secondly, why would anyone want LeBron to take a last second shot anyways? He's not even the best or maybe even second or third best shooter on his own team.

MassoDio
03-27-2014, 04:23 PM
And on a side note to this question:

Would LeBron's decisions to pass be looked at differently if he were listed as an over-sized PG like Magic was? (Seeing as how Magic's first choice in game deciding situations was to make the correct play and pass it to the player with the highest percentage chance of making a shot.)

NYKnickFanatic
03-27-2014, 04:25 PM
This should end well.

sens#11fan
03-27-2014, 04:42 PM
I think people complain because 9 out of 10 times mj would take the final shot, with lebron its another story

JasonJohnHorn
03-27-2014, 05:01 PM
I have no problem with LBJ making a smart basketball play. Jordan forced a lot of shot in the waning second, but he made a lot of them. He also passed the ball off to Paxson and Kerr for some big plays in some big moments of some big games, because he knew who was in the best position to score. I think this was Pippen and Jackson's influence on him.

Only a glory-hound ball like insists on taking the last shot. All due respect to Kobe (he is the second best SG ever to play the game), but he was infamous for forcing such shots and he is lucky that Horry was there to grab an offensive rebound and hit a 3.

If you go back and look at the Laker's game winners, many of them were shot by Fisher or Horry. So what's the BFD if LBJ sometimes moves the ball to the open guy? Those plays, he's got two guys on him, that means somebody is open.

sunsfan88
03-27-2014, 05:13 PM
Jordan and Kobe were strict scorers. LeBron is an all around player.

It's hard to compare em imo.

JasonJohnHorn
03-27-2014, 05:41 PM
Jordan and Kobe were strict scorers. LeBron is an all around player.

It's hard to compare em imo.

Bro, I'm not trying to sound like a d!ck, but you need to look at Jordan's numbers. He was an AMAZING all-around player. He led guards in blocks almost every season, and there wasn't a shooting guard that got more steals in a season than him while he played (as far as I remember), and he was also the best rebounding SG and got more assists than any other SG in the league when he played.

He was an AMAZING all-around played. He was just also the best scorer at the time as well. And this praise is coming from a Detroit fan who still despises the guy.

Yankeefan213
03-27-2014, 05:50 PM
Jordan and Kobe were strict scorers. LeBron is an all around player.

It's hard to compare em imo.



Now that deserves a :facepalm:

Hawkeye15
03-27-2014, 06:02 PM
I have no problem with LBJ making a smart basketball play. Jordan forced a lot of shot in the waning second, but he made a lot of them. He also passed the ball off to Paxson and Kerr for some big plays in some big moments of some big games, because he knew who was in the best position to score. I think this was Pippen and Jackson's influence on him.

Only a glory-hound ball like insists on taking the last shot. All due respect to Kobe (he is the second best SG ever to play the game), but he was infamous for forcing such shots and he is lucky that Horry was there to grab an offensive rebound and hit a 3.

If you go back and look at the Laker's game winners, many of them were shot by Fisher or Horry. So what's the BFD if LBJ sometimes moves the ball to the open guy? Those plays, he's got two guys on him, that means somebody is open.

you wouldn't know that by some of the hardcore Kobe fans around here. Apparently he has hit every game winner for them since he came into the league, and only missed a few.

SeoulBeatz
03-27-2014, 06:16 PM
My friends and I used to joke about how in all of MJ's best highlights, there were always a couple guys calling for the ball who were wide open but MJ just managed to pull off miraculous shots time and time again (the switch-handed layup comes to mind)

They are two different players. Lebron is a much better passer/facilitator than MJ ever was and that effects his game. He's not always looking for his shot and that's what makes him so great/efficient. When he needs to turn it on, he does. That wasn't the case earlier in his career but two championships later I think people realize just how dominant he can be.

It's crazy that people are *****ing about him not being SELFISH ENOUGH? What?

Lebron gets all of his teammates involved while scoring at a crazy efficient clip. He is exactly what you'd want from your star player.

Did people really want him to shoot a highly contested, double-teamed 25-footer last night over a wide open Bosh shot?

It was the obvious choice to make, but the pass should have been timed better (Bosh was still moving backwards as he caught it).

Nick O
03-27-2014, 06:21 PM
if i had an order for last second shot on the Heat i would go
1.Allen
2.Bosh
3.Wade
4.James.

Bosh had a better shot though. hes generally clutch. Hibbert made a fantastic close out to alter it. bosh missed.. the end. not much more to it. i think people are making to big a deal out of this

Nick O
03-27-2014, 06:22 PM
Jordan and Kobe were strict scorers. LeBron is an all around player.

It's hard to compare em imo.

there wasn't a single thing Jordan could not do.

Slug3
03-27-2014, 06:39 PM
I don't agree with the crap some people throw towards Lebron. But making a thread up because you don't like it and want to cause more crappy debates that will just end in arguing is not what should be done. Some posters honestly need to just be on a shorter leash than others.

tr3ymill3r
03-27-2014, 10:13 PM
I don't agree with the crap some people throw towards Lebron. But making a thread up because you don't like it and want to cause more crappy debates that will just end in arguing is not what should be done. Some posters honestly need to just be on a shorter leash than others.

Yea, because all 15,888 of your posts have been of pure brilliance.

uptown0364
03-27-2014, 10:19 PM
This is purely for the LeBron haters out there. What if Steve Kerr missed his wide open free throw line jumper that was hand fed to him from Michael Jordan. Did MJ make the right basketball play? Yes.

Secondly, why would anyone want LeBron to take a last second shot anyways? He's not even the best or maybe even second or third best shooter on his own team.

What if Ray Allen misses last year? Bosh gets traded and who knows what happens to Lebron's and the Heat legacy? If ifs and buts were candy and nuts we'd all have figgy pudding.

NBA_Starter
03-27-2014, 10:32 PM
I wish he was missed more so they would take him off of tv.

Bartlee23
03-27-2014, 10:45 PM
This is purely for the LeBron haters out there. What if Steve Kerr missed his wide open free throw line jumper that was hand fed to him from Michael Jordan. Did MJ make the right basketball play? Yes.

Secondly, why would anyone want LeBron to take a last second shot anyways? He's not even the best or maybe even second or third best shooter on his own team.

What if LeBron never left Cleveland? What are Miami fans doing right now? They would not have the titles they do.

Bartlee23
03-27-2014, 10:51 PM
Jordan and Kobe were strict scorers. LeBron is an all around player.

It's hard to compare em imo.

I hope you are joking.... If not this is officially the dumbest thing I have read on this site. Do some research to back up your comments because what you said about Jordan is an insult to all basketball fans whether you like him or not.

NBA_Starter
03-27-2014, 10:59 PM
He will be a coach soon.

effen5
03-28-2014, 02:37 AM
Steve kerr doesn't miss.

amos1er
03-28-2014, 02:41 AM
This is purely for the LeBron haters out there. What if Steve Kerr missed his wide open free throw line jumper that was hand fed to him from Michael Jordan. Did MJ make the right basketball play? Yes.

Secondly, why would anyone want LeBron to take a last second shot anyways? He's not even the best or maybe even second or third best shooter on his own team.

It's the right basketball play when you win, and the wrong when you lose... That simple. Jordan seemed to make the right basketball play more often than not. Hence his six rings. Lebron seems to make the wrong basketball play more often than not. Hence his 50% finals record.

Yagyu+
03-28-2014, 02:48 AM
He bout that ****. For three!

effen5
03-28-2014, 02:50 AM
Steve Kerr is as clutch as it gets...What he did against the Mavs a decade ago coming off the bench cold with the Spurs was filthy.

vaethshuxun
03-28-2014, 08:23 AM
I think this was Pippen and Jackson's influence on him.http://newfinancehelp.com/ce310.jpghttp://newfinancehelp.com/uk31.jpg
http://newfinancehelp.com/h3t.jpghttp://newfinancehelp.com/d3h.jpg

Daze9900
03-28-2014, 09:02 AM
I think people complain because 9 out of 10 times mj would take the final shot, with lebron its another story

this.

Goose17
03-28-2014, 10:05 AM
It's the right basketball play when you win, and the wrong when you lose... That simple. Jordan seemed to make the right basketball play more often than not. Hence his six rings. Lebron seems to make the wrong basketball play more often than not. Hence his 50% finals record.

You don't win back to back championships, 4 MVP awards, 2 finals mvp awards, 7 all NBA-first team nominations and 5 all NBA defensive first team nominations by making the wrong basketball play more often than not. That's a ludicrous statement.

Lebron was 27 when he won his first ring. A year younger than Jordan was when he won his.

Jordan has his threepeat in those three seasons, won when he was 28, 29 and 30. Lebron has
won he was 27, 28 and if he wins again, 29.


I think people forget how young Lebron was when he came into the league.

Lebron was in his first NBA finals at the age of 22. At the same age, Jordan was in his sophomore season and being eliminated in the first round. By the time Lebron was 25 he had made it past the first round of the playoffs five times, including a finals and conference final appearance. By the age of 25, Jordan had made it out of the first round twice. Only once getting to the conference final. I will happily argue with anyone that Jordan had the better team mates, that roster was considerably stronger than Lebron in Cleveland. Lebron had that team overachieving in an almost unimaginable way.





Jordans first seven seasons;

Rookie: First round knockout.
Sophomore: First round knockout (sweep) (aged 22)
3rd: First round knockout (sweep).
4th: Second round knockout.
5th: Conference final knockout (aged 25)
6th: Conference final knockout.
7th: NBA Champonship.


Lebrons first ten seasons;

Rookie: No Playoffs.
Sophomore: No Playoffs.
3rd: 2nd round knockout.
4th: NBA Finals knockout (aged 22)
5th: 2nd Round knockout
6th: Conference final knockout (aged 24)
7th: 2nd Round knockout (aged 25)
8th: NBA Finals knockout (aged 26)
9th: NBA Championship (aged 27)
10th: NBA Championship (aged 28)




How someone can sit and say Lebron makes the the wrong basketball decision more often than not completely baffles me. He has, arguably the highest basketball I.Q of anyone in the league right now. He's an incredible player and team mate. The difference between Lebron and the likes of Kobe is Lebron will acknowledge when his team mate has a better chance of making a shot than he does, and will get him the ball, in rhythm. Kobe would simply force a shot, some times it would go in, some times it wouldn't.

People remember all of Kobe's makes but none of his misses. Same with Jordan. Where as for whatever reason, people seem to remember Lebron's misses, but none of his makes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDCD-XCR5fs

tr3ymill3r
03-28-2014, 10:17 AM
What if Ray Allen misses last year? Bosh gets traded and who knows what happens to Lebron's and the Heat legacy? If ifs and buts were candy and nuts we'd all have figgy pudding.

If Ray missed then everyone would have jumped on LeBron for missing the first 3.

tr3ymill3r
03-28-2014, 10:21 AM
Why are people never going after the guy who missed the shot that LeBron passed it up to? Are they not NBA caliber of players? If you give Bosh that same shot 10 times he makes 7 or 8 out 10 each time.

Let me ask this one more time. Name as many guys as you would like currently in the NBA, at what point would you get to LeBron James to take a shot if your life was on the line? If he makes it you live, if he misses it you die. There is at least 1 shooter on each team and in some cases 2 or 3 that are better shooters than LeBron.

slashsnake
03-28-2014, 10:24 AM
It's the right basketball play when you win, and the wrong when you lose... That simple. Jordan seemed to make the right basketball play more often than not. Hence his six rings. Lebron seems to make the wrong basketball play more often than not. Hence his 50% finals record.

Lebron averages about 60 points per 36 minutes the past couple years in the final 30 seconds of single possession games, so he isn't deferring a lot. He's top 5 in per 36 last season in points, rebounds and assists in those same clutch moments. He's no MJ in the clutch, nobody is. But he's been pretty good there.

As for his finals record. I believe he's been to 4 with two rings at the same age Jordan had been to two with two rings. So I guess if winning the eastern conference finals is worse than losing the eastern conference finals you do have a good point.

3RDASYSTEM
03-28-2014, 10:42 AM
This is purely for the LeBron haters out there. What if Steve Kerr missed his wide open free throw line jumper that was hand fed to him from Michael Jordan. Did MJ make the right basketball play? Yes.

Secondly, why would anyone want LeBron to take a last second shot anyways? He's not even the best or maybe even second or third best shooter on his own team.

I mentioned this plenty of times on here when they bring up BRON being bailed out

people act like JORDAN avg 50ppg every series and hit every game winner or clutch shot, what if KUKOC don't go nuts against 98' PACERS? see what I mean

and to add on PIPP could have his own vintage clutch/putback reel for how many clutch buckets he made during that time with JORDAN, how is that not bailing JORDAN out?

media has destroyed basic thinking, see PER/WS for further proof

3RDASYSTEM
03-28-2014, 10:51 AM
It's the right basketball play when you win, and the wrong when you lose... That simple. Jordan seemed to make the right basketball play more often than not. Hence his six rings. Lebron seems to make the wrong basketball play more often than not. Hence his 50% finals record.

That's some of the dumbest thinking known to a bball talker in quite some time

6 rings in 15yrs? wow that's a perfect record, they both got drafted by bottom feeders and you have to play in your era regardless how tough/weak so that plays no factor because if so you say BRON couldn't win without teaming up with WADE/BOSH but JORDAN couldn't win not 1 of those exclusive 6 rings until all the true dynasties got old and injured and retired and the rule changes catered to him since he couldn't beat the BAD BOYS for ****, go back and check for yourself, JORDAN won his first ring yr7, JORDAN got two 3peats and BRON is going for 4 in a row,last team to do that was I think BIRD/C's in 80's

this era is weak so I expect BRON to be somewhat of a modern day RUSS/JORDAN combo, rings and marketing brand combined, perfect storm in this weak era, go BRON

If KERR had missed that jumper from JORDAN it was still the right play
just like when BRON passes it and they miss or make its still the right play, its a make or miss game, nothing more nothing less

win or loss it could still be the right play, but the perception is you win or lose with the best player taking the last shot, but sometimes its better to pass when you draw double/triple teams like a player of BRON does at times

JORDAN avg 11apg in 91' finals because PAXSON was making the shot off the right play, had he missed those wide open shots it was still the right play to make by JORDAN since he was commanding so much damn attention

you are bball out of bounds in worst way

KingPosey
03-28-2014, 10:54 AM
If Kerr missed, Jordan gets mad. Jordan stays one more year, makes 40 mlion dollars, the a bulls win 75 games and that championship instead

beyourself
03-28-2014, 11:09 AM
I don't think I've seen a Jordan stan while being on PSD. Very interesting.

But yes, he was not perfect. He was the greatest player in NBA history though. He did not always take the final shot. He did not always make every shot.

He generally made hero ball work and nobody else really has.

slashsnake
03-28-2014, 11:51 AM
If Kerr missed, Jordan gets mad. Jordan stays one more year, makes 40 mlion dollars, the a bulls win 75 games and that championship instead

Interesting question there... I wonder if they would have done that? And actually he would have gotten 14 million I believe under the new CBA (following year was the lockout year, Bird exemption was capped so teams couldn't re-sign their players for whatever they wanted, thus no monster deals like Jordan's anymore).

Rodmans contract was up and he was hurt most of the following year, when he decided Los Angeles was the town he wanted to be around. Pippen took a 700% pay increase in free agency. Kerr took a 300% pay increase to go try for a ring with the spurs. Longley took a 200% pay increase as his contract ended too.

I don't think Chicago could have talked the guys to stick around on any sort of contracts knowing Jordan was on his way out in a year. Rodmans career was done. Pippen wanted to be a star on his own team (and make 15 million instead of 2 million, those lear jets don't pay for themselves), Kerr saw a championship opportunity with a nice payday. Longley saw a nice payday finally.

Basically, max deals took up more of the cap then. Jordan for 14 mil and Pippen for a similar deal to convince him to stay would cost the bulls 28 mil, against a 30 mil cap.

He would have made Chicago a free agent destination for sure. But he would have had a lot of roster turnover, with a strike shortened season giving him few practices and games to get things in order for the playoffs. Not saying he couldn't have won again and beaten Pop, Duncan, and Robinson in the finals, but that would be a tall order. And who knows how burned out Jackson would have felt after losing a finals.

barreleffact
03-28-2014, 10:27 PM
Is this REALLY a question? We are talking about STEVE KERR! One of the best shooters in the history of the game. Here is the difference between LBJ and MJ. MJ knew he could score on anyone regardless of the defense and was right more than wrong. He may have had open teammates, but the clutch was strong with this one, and he knew it. Even if he had passed more frequently of the 50 something last second attempts (not that many compared to Kobe or other stars), he would have been trading his 50+% shooting for a lesser shooters shot. That is ineffective basketball.

This is the argument I give against LBJ at least for last night. The final play is drawn for either the best player or the best shooter. Bosh is neither. A pass to Bosh moving backward or at all is almost stupid unless he is wide open. You have to know your target recipient. If LBJ had passed to Ray, great play. To Chalmers...decent. People act like passing it to any open man is the right play. You know what? Eff it, pass it to Oden from three. He's open! I bet he is. And as the old adage says, if he is open, it is probably for a reason. The defense was willing to give him that shot. In a regular season game where bosh was 3 for 10 at the time and LBJ was on fire, LBJ has no business not taking the shot. That is the difference. MJ would have known the word heat check and would have been pissed if he missed, but was smart enough to create an excellent look for himself regardless due to his bb IQ and athleticism.

Bruno
03-28-2014, 11:08 PM
This is purely for the LeBron haters out there. What if Steve Kerr missed his wide open free throw line jumper that was hand fed to him from Michael Jordan. Did MJ make the right basketball play? Yes.
would he have regretted 'making the right play' for the rest of his life? haha, yeah.


Secondly, why would anyone want LeBron to take a last second shot anyways? He's not even the best or maybe even second or third best shooter on his own team.
haha. interesting point.

Bostonjorge
03-29-2014, 11:49 AM
You don't win back to back championships, 4 MVP awards, 2 finals mvp awards, 7 all NBA-first team nominations and 5 all NBA defensive first team nominations by making the wrong basketball play more often than not. That's a ludicrous statement.

Lebron was 27 when he won his first ring. A year younger than Jordan was when he won his.

Jordan has his threepeat in those three seasons, won when he was 28, 29 and 30. Lebron has
won he was 27, 28 and if he wins again, 29.


I think people forget how young Lebron was when he came into the league.

Lebron was in his first NBA finals at the age of 22. At the same age, Jordan was in his sophomore season and being eliminated in the first round. By the time Lebron was 25 he had made it past the first round of the playoffs five times, including a finals and conference final appearance. By the age of 25, Jordan had made it out of the first round twice. Only once getting to the conference final. I will happily argue with anyone that Jordan had the better team mates, that roster was considerably stronger than Lebron in Cleveland. Lebron had that team overachieving in an almost unimaginable way.





Jordans first seven seasons;

Rookie: First round knockout.
Sophomore: First round knockout (sweep) (aged 22)
3rd: First round knockout (sweep).
4th: Second round knockout.
5th: Conference final knockout (aged 25)
6th: Conference final knockout.
7th: NBA Champonship.


Lebrons first ten seasons;

Rookie: No Playoffs.
Sophomore: No Playoffs.
3rd: 2nd round knockout.
4th: NBA Finals knockout (aged 22)
5th: 2nd Round knockout
6th: Conference final knockout (aged 24)
7th: 2nd Round knockout (aged 25)
8th: NBA Finals knockout (aged 26)
9th: NBA Championship (aged 27)
10th: NBA Championship (aged 28)




How someone can sit and say Lebron makes the the wrong basketball decision more often than not completely baffles me. He has, arguably the highest basketball I.Q of anyone in the league right now. He's an incredible player and team mate. The difference between Lebron and the likes of Kobe is Lebron will acknowledge when his team mate has a better chance of making a shot than he does, and will get him the ball, in rhythm. Kobe would simply force a shot, some times it would go in, some times it wouldn't.

People remember all of Kobe's makes but none of his misses. Same with Jordan. Where as for whatever reason, people seem to remember Lebron's misses, but none of his makes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDCD-XCR5fs

What are these passes in rhythm u speak of. In crunch time James passes the ball like a hot potato and forces these passes where players have to shoot with no rhythm and the clock running down. I mean wouldn't his numbers say other wise. Anyone can force a pass.

Also I would argue James first year in Miami where wade was ranked in the top 3 and bosh in the top 10 players in the league were more help then any star player since the 80's. I would also argue James has the best role players were most of them would start in %90 of there eastern conference teams including playoff teams. Again more then any other star since the 80's.

The main reason kobe and Jordan have more missed clutch shots is because since day 1 they been taking them.

effen5
03-30-2014, 07:59 PM
Jordan also had a much worse team when he first came to the league than Lebron did. I think people forget that...

Hawkeye15
03-30-2014, 08:01 PM
Jordan also had a much worse team when he first came to the league than Lebron did. I think people forget that...

he did?

ChicagoFan4Eva
03-30-2014, 08:33 PM
But But But.. He didnt :cheers:

Jeffy25
03-30-2014, 11:45 PM
It's the right basketball play when you win, and the wrong when you lose... That simple. Jordan seemed to make the right basketball play more often than not. Hence his six rings. Lebron seems to make the wrong basketball play more often than not. Hence his 50% finals record.

Because all Finals appearances have all been determined while either player had a last second shot to win or lose the game, right?

effen5
03-31-2014, 01:20 AM
he did?

You tell me....

40 Dave Corzine C 6-11 250 April 25, 1956 6 DePaul University
44 Quintin Dailey SG 6-3 180 January 22, 1961 2 University of San Francisco
34 Chris Engler C 6-11 245 March 1, 1959 2 University of Wyoming
21 Sidney Green PF 6-9 220 January 4, 1961 1 University of Nevada, Las Vegas
10 Dave Greenwood PF 6-9 222 May 27, 1957 5 University of California, Los Angeles
22 Rod Higgins SF 6-7 200 January 31, 1960 2 California State University, Fresno
32 Steve Johnson C 6-10 235 November 3, 1957 3 Oregon State University
27 Caldwell Jones C 6-11 217 August 4, 1950 11 Albany State University
13 Charles Jones PF 6-9 215 April 3, 1957 1 Albany State University
23 Michael Jordan SG 6-6 195 February 17, 1963 R University of North Carolina
1 Wes Matthews PG 6-1 170 August 24, 1959 4 University of Wisconsin
33 Jawann Oldham C 7-0 215 July 4, 1957 4 Seattle University
3 Ennis Whatley PG 6-3 177 August 11, 1962 1 University of Alabama
0 Orlando Woolridge SF 6-9 215 December 16, 1959 3 University of Notre Dame

4 Tony Battie C 6-11 230 February 11, 1976 6 Texas Tech University
1 Carlos Boozer PF 6-9 258 November 20, 1981 1 Duke University
3 J.R. Bremer PG 6-2 185 September 19, 1980 1 St. Bonaventure University
5 Kedrick Brown SF 6-7 222 March 18, 1981 2 Okaloosa-Walton Community College
8 Mateen Cleaves PG 6-2 205 September 7, 1977 3 Michigan State University
31 Ricky Davis SG 6-6 195 September 23, 1979 5 University of Iowa
52 DeSagana Diop C 7-0 300 January 30, 1982 2
11 Zydrunas Ilgauskas C 7-3 238 June 5, 1975 5
23 LeBron James SG 6-8 240 December 30, 1984 R
24 Jason Kapono SF 6-8 213 February 4, 1981 R University of California, Los Angeles
32 Jelani McCoy C 6-10 245 December 6, 1977 5 University of California, Los Angeles
0 Jeff McInnis PG 6-4 190 October 22, 1974 6 University of North Carolina
4 Chris Mihm PF 7-0 265 July 16, 1979 3 University of Texas at Austin
21 Darius Miles SF 6-9 210 October 9, 1981 3
54 Lee Nailon SF 6-9 238 February 22, 1975 3 Texas Christian University
14 Ira Newble SF 6-7 220 January 20, 1975 3 Miami University
12 Kevin Ollie PG 6-4 195 December 27, 1972 6 University of Connecticut
13 Michael Stewart PF 6-10 230 April 25, 1975 6 University of California
41 Bruno Sundov C 7-2 220 February 10, 1980 5
2 Dajuan Wagner SG 6-2 200 February 4, 1983 1 University of Memphis
55 Eric Williams SF 6-8 220 July 17, 1972 8 Providence College