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amos1er
03-26-2014, 10:59 PM
On the three final possessions of tonights crucial game that could have conceivably decided the number one seed in the east, Lebron deferred on the final three possessions refusing to take a shot once again. Would it have made a difference if Lebron had stepped up and created a shot for himself? Or has he just accepted his role as the guy who just isn't going to shoot with the game on the line? Pretty hard to compare him to guys like Kobe, Jordan, Magic, and Bird when they all had the ball in their hands to take the shot when it was money time. Then again, perhaps being the guy to take the final shot is overrated. Maybe it's a better decision to create a play for an open shooter rather than take a contested shot on your own. Discuss...

P&GRealist
03-26-2014, 11:01 PM
Percentage buster.

amos1er
03-26-2014, 11:04 PM
Percentage buster.

I certainly hope that is not the case. Valuing personal stats over team victories is not a trait that someone who many call the best in the game and a future top ten player of all-time should have.

Tony_Starks
03-26-2014, 11:05 PM
He doesn't defer he makes the best basketball play. A coach would never be mad at his late game decisions.

P&GRealist
03-26-2014, 11:06 PM
He doesn't defer he makes the best basketball play. A coach would never be mad at his late game decisions.
2 passes in less than 2 seconds and getting the shot off in time was not a smart basketball play.

lincecum=future
03-26-2014, 11:06 PM
Yeah he takes what the defense gives him

Hawkeye15
03-26-2014, 11:07 PM
because hero ball like Kobe has played has proven to be exponentially the lesser way to win in the last seconds.....

Riodagoat
03-26-2014, 11:09 PM
Given how you always get on Lebron's jock strap whenever he makes a crucial, logical play but does not pan out, this wouldn't qualify as a "discussion."

P&GRealist
03-26-2014, 11:09 PM
because hero ball like Kobe has played has proven to be exponentially the lesser way to win in the last seconds.....
Not when you have only 2 seconds left. 2 passes in that span and trying to get the shot off in time was not smart.

amos1er
03-26-2014, 11:10 PM
2 passes in less than 2 seconds and getting the shot off in time was not a smart basketball play.

It might have been considered smart had the Heat won... Which they didn't. That's why we really have to question it. So many times throughout his career James has shied away from taking the "final shot". That is one of the biggest knocks on his game. Would he be more successful as a "winner" if he was a guy who was confident in creating his own shot rather than passing and making the "smart basketball play"? That is the big question here...

Tony_Starks
03-26-2014, 11:12 PM
because hero ball like Kobe has played has proven to be exponentially the lesser way to win in the last seconds.....

Really? Come on that's uncalled for. Why even start that discussion. This is about Lebron only.

amos1er
03-26-2014, 11:12 PM
Given how you always get on Lebron's jock strap whenever he makes a crucial, logical play but does not pan out, this wouldn't qualify as a "discussion."

Of course this is a valid discussion. I'm sure that Skip and Stephen A will be discussing this above all else when analyzing this game on First Take tomorrow. Biggest game of the week and the best player in the game passing up the final shot on three consecutive plays at the end of the game is perhaps the most discussion worthy topic there is right now.

amos1er
03-26-2014, 11:13 PM
because hero ball like Kobe has played has proven to be exponentially the lesser way to win in the last seconds.....

Why bring Kobe into this? Thought we could expect more from a mod.

amos1er
03-26-2014, 11:14 PM
Really? Come on that's uncalled for. Why even start that discussion. This is about Lebron only.

Here here.

amos1er
03-26-2014, 11:18 PM
Yeah he takes what the defense gives him

Yes, that seems to be Lebron's philosophy when it comes to end game heroics, but there are many all time greats that still managed to create their own shot successfully and sink many crucial game winners despite what defenses threw at them. Should we all just accept this as the greatest weakness in his game, or is this indeed the better rout to take than the greats that came before him?

South Side Sox
03-26-2014, 11:27 PM
Because in a situation like that he is going have tight D in his face and unless he makes a good fake move to get open.

Reason he dishes to someone that has a better chance.

sturm
03-26-2014, 11:30 PM
he gave the ball to Bosh not anyone.

king4day
03-26-2014, 11:33 PM
No issue with what he did tonight. Leaders don't take bad shots. They find the right ones. Bosh made a 3 and just missed the jumper at the end while he (LeBron) was about to be doubled.

beyourself
03-26-2014, 11:35 PM
Michael Jordan ruined everything. I say this because Michael Jordan hero ball is the only hero ball that actually seemed to be more effective than the smart basketball play.

For every other basketball player in the history of the world hero ball is the way to lose games.

He didn't have the look so he went to a higher percentage shot.

bucketss
03-26-2014, 11:36 PM
didn't like the one he passed to haslem vs the jazz awhile back, but this one was a smart pass .

Slug3
03-26-2014, 11:36 PM
I didn't see him defer in game 7 with time running down last year did you?

amos1er
03-26-2014, 11:38 PM
he gave the ball to Bosh not anyone.

Funny, according to most so called "Heat fans" Bosh is basically a scrub and lucky to be along for the ride Lebron is taking him on.

amos1er
03-26-2014, 11:39 PM
I didn't see him defer in game 7 with time running down last year did you?

He actually did quite a bit. Especially to Ray Allen in game 6...

Fnom11
03-26-2014, 11:47 PM
He actually did quite a bit. Especially to Ray Allen in game 6...

The hate for Lebron is strong in this one.

Hawkeye15
03-26-2014, 11:50 PM
Not when you have only 2 seconds left. 2 passes in that span and trying to get the shot off in time was not smart.

so you prefer LeBron to take a contested 27 footer over an open Bosh? Anyone in the game outside Hibbert isn't bothering that shot to that degree..

Hawkeye15
03-26-2014, 11:51 PM
fact is, the most successful teams down the stretch don't play hero ball. They run actual plays and get a good shot.

Hawkeye15
03-26-2014, 11:52 PM
Really? Come on that's uncalled for. Why even start that discussion. This is about Lebron only.

are you ****ing serious? Look at the person who created this thread.....

He is you times a million as a kobephile

MrfadeawayJB
03-26-2014, 11:52 PM
I thought it was the right play, bosh was hot

P&GRealist
03-26-2014, 11:52 PM
so you prefer LeBron to take a contested 27 footer over an open Bosh? Anyone in the game outside Hibbert isn't bothering that shot to that degree..
Bosh was far from open, it was a well contested J from the side that led to an air ball.

Hawkeye15
03-26-2014, 11:53 PM
Why bring Kobe into this? Thought we could expect more from a mod.

and I expect nothing from you, but anti LeBron

P&GRealist
03-26-2014, 11:53 PM
I thought it was the right play, bosh was hot

No he wasn't. He had scored just 5 pts previous to that 3 he made. And he actually missed a 3 before that made 3.

DaLakerz Rulz
03-26-2014, 11:54 PM
kobe > lebron

Hawkeye15
03-26-2014, 11:55 PM
Michael Jordan ruined everything. I say this because Michael Jordan hero ball is the only hero ball that actually seemed to be more effective than the smart basketball play.

For every other basketball player in the history of the world hero ball is the way to lose games.

He didn't have the look so he went to a higher percentage shot.

good point. MJ is literally the outlier for going isolation to end a game. Everyone wants to see a player catch it, and go 1 on 5, and win the game.

Just isn't that simple. Pretty much everyone else fails miserably at doing it.

Hawkeye15
03-26-2014, 11:55 PM
kobe > lebron

at what, taking last second shots?

Fnom11
03-26-2014, 11:56 PM
so you prefer LeBron to take a contested 27 footer over an open Bosh? Anyone in the game outside Hibbert isn't bothering that shot to that degree..

It's kind of astonishing at what lengths people will go to to try to discredit Lebron. Dude made insane plays all game and even here got a wide open look with ample amount of time to get a shot off that just so happened to not pan out.

Hawkeye15
03-26-2014, 11:57 PM
Bosh was far from open, it was a well contested J from the side that led to an air ball.

oh he was open, and in any other scenario, he doesn't have the consensus DPOY closing in on him, who happens to be 7'2".

It was a drawn up play. If you prefer LeBron to freelance, while 2 defenders are all over him, so be it.

Hawkeye15
03-26-2014, 11:59 PM
It's kind of astonishing at what lengths people will go to to try to discredit Lebron. Dude made insane plays all game and even here got a wide open look with ample amount of time to get a shot off that just so happened to not pan out.

yeah, but dont you remember Ray Allen saved his entire legacy by hitting a 3, even though the only reason the Heat weren't blown off the floor was because LeBron went nova?

I love how people act like every single superstar in the entire history of the game hasn't relied on a role player making a huge play that would have changed the outcome of their career. EXCEPT LeBron.

LA_Raiders
03-27-2014, 12:01 AM
He is just scared, he doesn't want to be accountable for a miss and lost game. Not a big deal. He has done it all his career.

beyourself
03-27-2014, 12:03 AM
Everybody who's posting here criticizing LeBron for not going hero ball are Lakers stans.

Why aren't Jordan stans in here doing the same thing? It's because they aren't insecure. They know hero ball actually worked for Jordan.

Fnom11
03-27-2014, 12:05 AM
He is just scared, he doesn't want to be accountable for a miss and lost game. Not a big deal. He has done it all his career.


Comments like these give Kobe fans bad names.

Slug3
03-27-2014, 12:09 AM
yeah, but dont you remember Ray Allen saved his entire legacy by hitting a 3, even though the only reason the Heat weren't blown off the floor was because LeBron went nova?

I love how people act like every single superstar in the entire history of the game hasn't relied on a role player making a huge play that would have changed the outcome of their career. EXCEPT LeBron.

Honestly with idiots like them they will remember Lebron for the plays he didn't make instead of the bunch he did.

Hawkeye15
03-27-2014, 12:10 AM
Honestly with idiots like them they will remember Lebron for the plays he didn't make instead of the bunch he did.

which is ironic, because Kobe fans all consider him to be the most clutch player currently, while ignoring that he misses over 70% of those shots, and the Lakers offense goes to pure crap in those situations.

But, whatevs.

ThuglifeJ
03-27-2014, 12:21 AM
Cajones

numba1CHANGsta
03-27-2014, 12:27 AM
This game proved that he's nowhere close to being the closer that MJ and Kobe were

DoMeFavors
03-27-2014, 12:35 AM
Lets face it, LeBron has and always will be untill proven different is scared of the moment. Its understandable with all the attention he gets tho. Was afriad to shoot in the finals last yr, the famous game in Cleveland in 2010 playoffs vs Celtics. He does come up big every now and then like 2012 vs Celtics down 3-2.

jerellh528
03-27-2014, 12:36 AM
He scuuurred

Htownballa1622
03-27-2014, 12:37 AM
lol^ THIS GAME?

Kobephils are so DUMB.

All of you. Yes.

He made good plays that gets the best look regardless of who takes the shot.

The last play was a misdirection play because everyone knew lebron would be defended hard 20+ feet away.

If he took that stupid fade away and missed- you Kobe nut huggers would say he isn't clutch.

He made the correct play. Bosh simply missed. It happens. End thread.

Slug3
03-27-2014, 12:39 AM
After all the big shots Lebron made last year. I feel like this thread shot not even be allowed. It's sad because I appreciate what Kobe was able to accomplish in this game, but because he has some of the dumbest fans in the world it actually makes me start to not like him.

DoMeFavors
03-27-2014, 12:40 AM
which is ironic, because Kobe fans all consider him to be the most clutch player currently, while ignoring that he misses over 70% of those shots, and the Lakers offense goes to pure crap in those situations.

But, whatevs.

Whether that is true or not, he still is much more feared with the game on the line than LeBron. Id have a lot more confidence in Kobe having the ball down 5 with 2 minutes left than LeBron.

Slug3
03-27-2014, 12:41 AM
Whether that is true or not, he still is much more feared with the game on the line than LeBron. Id have a lot more confidence in Kobe having the ball down 5 with 2 minutes left than LeBron.

Kobe has been horrible on the clutch the last few years. I would take a lot of others over him.

Htownballa1622
03-27-2014, 12:42 AM
Whether that is true or not, he still is much more feared with the game on the line than LeBron. Id have a lot more confidence in Kobe having the ball down 5 with 2 minutes left than LeBron.

Prove it.

jerellh528
03-27-2014, 12:42 AM
Why is Kobe being brought up in this? He wasn't a pansy

DoMeFavors
03-27-2014, 12:44 AM
Kobe has been horrible on the clutch the last few years. I would take a lot of others over him.

in 2010 I think he hit a game winner vs Kings, and last yr or two years ago he nailed like 3 three pointers in a row against Raptors beating them.

SouthSideRookie
03-27-2014, 12:44 AM
lol^ THIS GAME?

Kobephils are so DUMB.

All of you. Yes.

He made good plays that gets the best look regardless of who takes the shot.

The last play was a misdirection play because everyone knew lebron would be defended hard 20+ feet away.

If he took that stupid fade away and missed- you Kobe nut huggers would say he isn't clutch.

He made the correct play. Bosh simply missed. It happens. End thread.

Lebron played the whole second half without rest I believe. He just shat on the guy everyone here says is an elite defender.

Miami is coming off 3 straight really deep playoff runs so that's taken a toll on them as a team. It's understandable that they would pace themselves until the games really counts.

Come June everyone here will be eating crow, and the Kobe fans will look like idiots, once again.

Hawkeye15
03-27-2014, 12:46 AM
Whether that is true or not, he still is much more feared with the game on the line than LeBron. Id have a lot more confidence in Kobe having the ball down 5 with 2 minutes left than LeBron.

feared by who? All you need to do is let him play hero ball, and 70% of the time, you win. The Lakers, fortunately, were so good the first 43 minutes, it rarely mattered..

And statistically, your statement late is wrong.

Hawkeye15
03-27-2014, 12:47 AM
Why is Kobe being brought up in this? He wasn't a pansy

because the creator of this thread is a kobephile on roids, and has an obvious agenda...

ThuglifeJ
03-27-2014, 12:47 AM
Why is Kobe being brought up in this? He wasn't a pansy

+1

Slug3
03-27-2014, 12:47 AM
in 2010 I think he hit a game winner vs Kings, and last yr or two years ago he nailed like 3 three pointers in a row against Raptors beating them.

Lebron just hit the game winning shot the game before this one. But here we are talking about how he wants to defer.

Htownballa1622
03-27-2014, 12:48 AM
Lebron played the whole second half without rest I believe. He just shat on the guy everyone here says is an elite defender.

Miami is coming off 3 straight really deep playoff runs so that's taken a toll on them as a team. It's understandable that they would pace themselves until the games really counts.

Come June everyone here will be eating crow, and the Kobe fans will look like idiots, once again.

:nod:

I hope so. We're Rockets fans first but as Lebron continues to cement his legacy I love it especially for everyone here that just picks at his game like the guy didn't just drop 38 points on that great defense.

Hawkeye15
03-27-2014, 12:48 AM
Kobe has been horrible on the clutch the last few years. I would take a lot of others over him.

Even when he was winning GM's "most clutch player" awards, he was hitting 30% of those last possession shots, with 10-15 players above him.

Htownballa1622
03-27-2014, 12:49 AM
+1

oh look. You agreeing with more silly posts. At least you're consistent.

Tony_Starks
03-27-2014, 12:49 AM
Everybody who's posting here criticizing LeBron for not going hero ball are Lakers stans.

Why aren't Jordan stans in here doing the same thing? It's because they aren't insecure. They know hero ball actually worked for Jordan.

Tony Starks the Laker FAN started off the conversation by defending Lebron saying he made a good basketball play.

He furthermore said let's keep Kobe out of this because it has nothing to do with him. Laker fans didnt bring Kobe into this. Just because OP rides with the Lakers and Kobe people feel like its open season on him whenever he makes a criticism of Lebron, when in this case was pretty damn reasonable.

naps
03-27-2014, 12:51 AM
WoW insecure Kobephiles are at it again? What a surprise...Let me ask you this: Would you make a thread describing how awesome and smart LeBron is if the Heat won? You and everyone here knows you wouldn't. So why this thread then?


LeBron didn't defer. He preferred the better shot as he always does and as any other basketball player should. He's not as stupid to hero ball as someone like Kobe who never passes to open teammates in similar situations for the better shot and takes the shot by himself 10 times out of 10 and makes once in like 20 times and becomes a hero in kids eyes.

Never seen a stan as insecure as this one.

Pakman
03-27-2014, 12:52 AM
Hawkeye your kobe hate is so strong you managed to force kobe into the discussion. Oh and Kobe's hero ball doesn't work? His right hand full of rings says hi.

jerellh528
03-27-2014, 12:53 AM
Are you not entertained?! Lol

Slug3
03-27-2014, 12:54 AM
Hawkeye your kobe hate is so strong you managed to force kobe into the discussion. Oh and Kobe's hero ball doesn't work? His right hand full of rings says hi.

It's because everyone knows the OP has a hidden agenda. It's what they do with every anti Lebron thread they make.

Htownballa1622
03-27-2014, 12:54 AM
It's because everyone knows the OP has a hidden agenda. It's what they do with every anti Lebron thread they make.

This.

Jeffy25
03-27-2014, 12:56 AM
He doesn't defer he makes the best basketball play. A coach would never be mad at his late game decisions.

This. I didn't see Lebron doing anything wrong.


The idea that a player has to play hero ball to be a great player is silly. And that's what I'm hearing being asked of Lebron.

It's like that Lebron vs Kobe thread, where a Laker fan showed Lebron making a pass to Haslem for an open jumper when Lebron was about to be double teamed.....as if Lebron is just not taking last second shots out of....I dunno, weakness?

Make the right play for the team, not your own hero plays.


I do find it amusing that a Laker fan starts this sort of thread. Kobe always just chucked it at the last second, for a very poor success rate. Lebron gets wins with last second good plays, sometimes he shoots, sometimes he gets the assist, sometimes he set the game winning screen....sometimes it was the right play, but the shot just doesn't fall.

Hawkeye15
03-27-2014, 12:56 AM
Hawkeye your kobe hate is so strong you managed to force kobe into the discussion. Oh and Kobe's hero ball doesn't work? His right hand full of rings says hi.

I brought it up immediately because of the creator of this thread. Period.

And no, statistically speaking, Kobe's hero ball doesn't work.

CHANGO
03-27-2014, 12:56 AM
Oh yeah let's take a 3pt fadeaway shot with 2 defenders on me to win the game! I'm going to ignore Bosh who is completely open almost on the same position he made a 3pointer 2 minutes ago! :rolleyes:

Hawkeye15
03-27-2014, 12:57 AM
honestly, does anyone here actually think the thread creator is trying to create discussion? We are talking about one of the biggest Kobephiles on the site.

Tony_Starks
03-27-2014, 12:57 AM
If you don't like Lebrons name being arbitrarily brought up in Kobe threads, why bring his name up for no good earthly purpose in Lebron threads just for spite? Regardless of the OP or your opinion of his agenda?

DoMeFavors
03-27-2014, 12:58 AM
Lebron just hit the game winning shot the game before this one. But here we are talking about how he wants to defer.

he does defer, I forget if it was a playoff game or whatever but he passed to Haslem for a jumper and he missed. He chose to defer when he joined the likes of 2 other stars. Tonight the last play was designed I believe for Bosh. Kobe would always get the ball in a chance to win. Shows Spo doesnt have the confidence LeBron would hit it. Its well known that LeBron has never had the clutch factor.

Slug3
03-27-2014, 12:59 AM
honestly, does anyone here actually think the thread creator is trying to create discussion? We are talking about one of the biggest Kobephiles on the site.

I don't even get how Laker fans can stand him. He makes people hate Kobe and LA.

Hawkeye15
03-27-2014, 12:59 AM
If you don't like Lebrons name being arbitrarily brought up in Kobe threads, why bring his name up for no good earthly purpose in Lebron threads just for spite? Regardless of the OP or your opinion of his agenda?

therein lies the issue.......

jerellh528
03-27-2014, 01:00 AM
You can always count on amosier1 tho. It's like clockwork lol

Hawkeye15
03-27-2014, 01:00 AM
I don't even get how Laker fans can stand him. He makes people hate Kobe and LA.

I used to not really like Kobe, and fans like him made me absolutely hate him. That being said, I can still rationally debate about Kobe, but a thread like this is absolutely just an agenda thread. Nothing more.

Slug3
03-27-2014, 01:01 AM
he does defer, I forget if it was a playoff game or whatever but he passed to Haslem for a jumper and he missed. He chose to defer when he joined the likes of 2 other stars. Tonight the last play was designed I believe for Bosh. Kobe would always get the ball in a chance to win. Shows Spo doesnt have the confidence LeBron would hit it. Its well known that LeBron has never had the clutch factor.
That was a regular season game 2 years ago. I remember because it was still before his first ring. But Lebron and especially the Heat would rather make open plays then bad plays. And like I said. Literally the game before this one Lebron hit the game winner. If he defers then how was he able to hit the game winner?

naps
03-27-2014, 01:01 AM
OP brought up Kobe's name first. In fact, he's the biggest LeBron troll on this site. Any thread he makes about LeBron should be closed because EVERYONE here knows his agenda (I meant everyone minus the people who are defending him here ofcourse).

Hawkeye15
03-27-2014, 01:01 AM
You can always count on amosier1 tho. It's like clockwork lol

don't you rational Laker fans get annoyed by him?

Htownballa1622
03-27-2014, 01:01 AM
he does defer, I forget if it was a playoff game or whatever but he passed to Haslem for a jumper and he missed. He chose to defer when he joined the likes of 2 other stars. Tonight the last play was designed I believe for Bosh. Kobe would always get the ball in a chance to win. Shows Spo doesnt have the confidence LeBron would hit it. Its well known that LeBron has never had the clutch factor.

It was against the Jazz. Lebron could've taken the shot(I wouldn't have mind) but Haslem was open.

Spo doesn't have confidence in Lebron? Did you not see what he did to GSW this year? Did you not see game 7 last year? Seriously. There's nothing to read about the Nets right now that you have to be in this thread bringing up nonsense?

Htownballa1622
03-27-2014, 01:03 AM
don't you rational Laker fans get annoyed by him?

Wrong guy Hawk.

Hawkeye15
03-27-2014, 01:06 AM
Wrong guy Hawk.

nah, jerellh is aiight.

Htownballa1622
03-27-2014, 01:07 AM
nah, jerellh is aiight.

I suppose. I'll take your word. I've seen some questionable things but it's hard to get everyone of them correct.

He's def no amoser, illusionist, etc.

Supreme LA
03-27-2014, 01:08 AM
Wow this thread jumped to 6 pages quick! Anyways, what's being said about Lakers fans inviting hate for Kobe can be said for Heat fans as well. I liked Lebron, minus the flopping, until the Heat fans grew by the number. It's part of discussing basketball in this forum. It will never change when it comes to fans of any player or team.

Htownballa1622
03-27-2014, 01:10 AM
Why is Kobe being brought up in this? He wasn't a pansy


nah, jerellh is aiight.

I guess I was referring to this stuff.

jerellh528
03-27-2014, 01:11 AM
Wrong guy Hawk.

Yeah I admit I don't like Lebron and am a huge Kobe fan. Everyone here knows that, but I don't base my entire psd existence arguing for or against the other. I can be a big homer at times but yeah guys like amosier and illustionist do give most laker fans a bad name. It sucks but I still gotta defend my guy (Kobe)whenever the time arises. No matter how futile my defense may be. Amosier1 obviously shoves a huge agenda but sometimes he brings up good points, and he's a consistent little guy haha

DoMeFavors
03-27-2014, 01:11 AM
It was against the Jazz. Lebron could've taken the shot(I wouldn't have mind) but Haslem was open.

Spo doesn't have confidence in Lebron? Did you not see what he did to GSW this year? Did you not see game 7 last year? Seriously. There's nothing to read about the Nets right now that you have to be in this thread bringing up nonsense?

No I am just a fan of the NBA in general, and last 2 years I thought Heat were unstoppable. I gave them non stop props on this website. But this year they have fallen short of what I expected so I am calling them out. Yes I did see what LeBron did to Golden State this year, he gets chances all the time to make big (clutch) shots. He hits them and he misses them. But he more then he makes usually misses them. In order for the Heat to win this season LeBron has got to take on a huge responsibility. Wade isnt Wade anymore, most of the Heat role players are old. LeBron is tired from 3 straight finals and he has free agency in back of his mind. I am calling out LeBron now because he is becoming 2nd in league to Kevin Durant who is way more clutch than him.

WadeKobe
03-27-2014, 01:12 AM
Passing out of contested shots for uncontested shots is always the right play.

Passing up a 30% shot for a 70% shot is always the right play, unfortunately that shot will miss 3/10 times.

Tony_Starks
03-27-2014, 01:13 AM
Wow this thread jumped to 6 pages quick! Anyways, what's being said about Lakers fans inviting hate for Kobe can be said for Heat fans as well. I liked Lebron, minus the flopping, until the Heat fans grew by the number. It's part of discussing basketball in this forum. It will never change when it comes to fans of any player or team.

Lebron stans or Heat fans that just jumped on board after the super team formed truly annoy me.

That being said I couldn't call myself a real basketball fan if I let that small group make me dislike a player or entire team.....

Slug3
03-27-2014, 01:14 AM
No I am just a fan of the NBA in general, and last 2 years I thought Heat were unstoppable. I gave them non stop props on this website. But this year they have fallen short of what I expected so I am calling them out. Yes I did see what LeBron did to Golden State this year, he gets chances all the time to make big (clutch) shots. He hits them and he misses them. But he more then he makes usually misses them. In order for the Heat to win this season LeBron has got to take on a huge responsibility. Wade isnt Wade anymore, most of the Heat role players are old. LeBron is tired from 3 straight finals and he has free agency in back of his mind. I am calling out LeBron now because he is becoming 2nd in league to Kevin Durant who is way more clutch than him.

Durant just missed a game winner. I mean Miami has played the most games out of any team the last 3 going on now 4 years. I'm sure they know what they are doing.

Htownballa1622
03-27-2014, 01:15 AM
Yeah I admit I don't like Lebron and am a huge Kobe fan. Everyone here knows that, but I don't base my entire psd existence arguing for or against the other. I can be a big homer at times but yeah guys like amosier and illustionist do give most laker fans a bad name. It sucks but I still gotta defend my guy (Kobe)whenever the time arises. No matter how futile my defense may be. Amosier1 obviously shoves a huge agenda but sometimes he brings up good points, and he's a consistent little guy haha

Well fair enough. I commend you for sticking up for Kobe. No doubt he's a great player. I was a little wrong for grouping you with those guys. My bad.

DoMeFavors
03-27-2014, 01:21 AM
I dont like the way the Heat matchup with Pacers, I think Pacers take the east this year. Durant already has the MVP locked up, its a wrap its done. This was the most important regular season game of the season for the Heat who know they will probably be in a series with the Pacers this playoffs. Heat need that home court and have a chance to win the game. LeBron passes to Bosh for a jumper. If it doesnt get anymore clear than that to you people then there is nothing that can.

Htownballa1622
03-27-2014, 01:21 AM
No I am just a fan of the NBA in general, and last 2 years I thought Heat were unstoppable. I gave them non stop props on this website. But this year they have fallen short of what I expected so I am calling them out. Yes I did see what LeBron did to Golden State this year, he gets chances all the time to make big (clutch) shots. He hits them and he misses them. But he more then he makes usually misses them. In order for the Heat to win this season LeBron has got to take on a huge responsibility. Wade isnt Wade anymore, most of the Heat role players are old. LeBron is tired from 3 straight finals and he has free agency in back of his mind. I am calling out LeBron now because he is becoming 2nd in league to Kevin Durant who is way more clutch than him.

I get what you're saying but Nobody makes more than they miss usually in late game situations. It's just not high % to force up contested fade aways.

When Harden gets in his Iso ways late in games, I get frustrated because I know that it's not always the best way. I'd much rather have a scheme like the spurs. Of course every now and then it's nice to get a Ray Allen game 6 type shot but it's not always feasible.

As for Durant… that's a diff discussion that I feel he still hasn't passed Lebron but he's def closed the gap.

ThuglifeJ
03-27-2014, 01:24 AM
Lol classic Lebron worshippers making him out to do no wrong.

That was a piss poor final play and Lebron got scared of the moment and was glad to defer to Bosh. If he makes it cool, still a weak play. Seriously lebron has flaws, last seconds of games just happens to be one of them unfortunately.

And worshippers You're better off just keeping quiet and not defending EVERYTHIHG he does wrong.

His turnover was crucial too.

DoMeFavors
03-27-2014, 01:27 AM
3 questions for you

1.In the history of the NBA is it normal that a huge important game that determines who gets the 1st seed or potentially could with a chance to win the game, a player (lebron) who is known as the best player in the NBA is it normal that down 1 he doesnt get or attempt the last basket?

2. If Durant was in that position would he have passed it off to Ibaka for a long two?

3. Who would you much rather have with the ball tonight LeBron or Durant?

Nick O
03-27-2014, 01:36 AM
cause Bosh is generally clutch. hes a great late game shooter. i think that was the designed play. they got the shot. Great close out by Hibbert to alter it. game over. i dont think we should look to deep into this

Supreme LA
03-27-2014, 01:41 AM
cause Bosh is generally clutch. hes a great late game shooter. i think that was the designed play. they got the shot. Great close out by Hibbert to alter it. game over. i dont think we should look to deep into this

I agree. Bosh has proven to be their most clutch shooter and he's almost money from anywhere on the floor. Lebron will always make the right play. Some fans want to fault him for it but it's just his nature. I do think he has a fear of added criticism to his game if he were to miss because that would mean he failed in the eyes of people who don't know basketball. Lebron has never been a clutch scorer in the closing moments of a game so there's no reason he would start now. He makes the right play and that's all his team and coach can ask of him.

Lebron's style in the closing moments is to drive to the basket and look for an easy layup at the rim, and if the defense collapses, he kicks it out, and there isn't anything wrong with that. If I were playing with him, that's exactly what I would want him to do.

amos1er
03-27-2014, 01:51 AM
3 questions for you

1.In the history of the NBA is it normal that a huge important game that determines who gets the 1st seed or potentially could with a chance to win the game, a player (lebron) who is known as the best player in the NBA is it normal that down 1 he doesnt get or attempt the last basket?

2. If Durant was in that position would he have passed it off to Ibaka for a long two?

3. Who would you much rather have with the ball tonight LeBron or Durant?

Durant without question.

amos1er
03-27-2014, 01:54 AM
You can always count on amosier1 tho. It's like clockwork lol

Glad there are those who appreciate my work. It's not all for nothing. Lol.

amos1er
03-27-2014, 01:57 AM
I used to not really like Kobe, and fans like him made me absolutely hate him. That being said, I can still rationally debate about Kobe, but a thread like this is absolutely just an agenda thread. Nothing more.

I feel I brought up valid points that can be discussed rationally. At no point did I engage in troll like conduct. The main point of this thread was to debate on whether or not it's wise to pass up on the final shot if you are under the spot light like Lebron is. In fact, most of the analysts at ESPN and other outlets are having this very same discussion as we speak.

amos1er
03-27-2014, 01:58 AM
OP brought up Kobe's name first. In fact, he's the biggest LeBron troll on this site. Any thread he makes about LeBron should be closed because EVERYONE here knows his agenda (I meant everyone minus the people who are defending him here ofcourse).

Causation does not imply correlation.

amos1er
03-27-2014, 02:01 AM
Passing out of contested shots for uncontested shots is always the right play.

Passing up a 30% shot for a 70% shot is always the right play, unfortunately that shot will miss 3/10 times.

I don't know anyone in this league who shoots 70% from the field. Lol.

Pakman
03-27-2014, 02:05 AM
The NBA forum is bait city lol

amos1er
03-27-2014, 02:05 AM
Tony Starks the Laker FAN started off the conversation by defending Lebron saying he made a good basketball play.

He furthermore said let's keep Kobe out of this because it has nothing to do with him. Laker fans didnt bring Kobe into this. Just because OP rides with the Lakers and Kobe people feel like its open season on him whenever he makes a criticism of Lebron, when in this case was pretty damn reasonable.

Thank you. Thats exactly the way I see it. Why can't we actually discuss the topic at hand instead of slandering each other.

amos1er
03-27-2014, 02:10 AM
Lebron played the whole second half without rest I believe. He just shat on the guy everyone here says is an elite defender.

Miami is coming off 3 straight really deep playoff runs so that's taken a toll on them as a team. It's understandable that they would pace themselves until the games really counts.

Come June everyone here will be eating crow, and the Kobe fans will look like idiots, once again.

Care to put your vCash where your mouth is.

amos1er
03-27-2014, 02:25 AM
Either way, back to the discussion at hand... My opinion goes with whatever wins games. Tonight, Lebron decided to make a pass instead of create a shot for himself. It lost the game. Was it the correct basketball play? Perhaps an argument can be made that it was, but MJ would have taken the shot for sure and he is the GOAT and has six rings and never lost in the finals. Clearly, Lebron does not have the MJ factor and would rather pass than shoot. If it works for him, then so be it. MJ passed to Paxson and Kerr and it paid off.

Nick O
03-27-2014, 02:31 AM
Care to put your vCash where your mouth is.

lol i dont think you can actually do anything with that,. what the hell even is that

WadeKobe
03-27-2014, 02:44 AM
I don't know anyone in this league who shoots 70% from the field. Lol.

Let's say 60%. There are absolutely player who shoot 60% on uncontested corner 3's.

Using simple fg% misses the entire point of shot value. But keep on trollin'

amos1er
03-27-2014, 02:46 AM
Let's say 60%. There are absolutely player who shoot 60% on uncontested corner 3's.

Using simple fg% misses the entire point of shot value. But keep on trollin'

Bosh is not one of them.

WadeKobe
03-27-2014, 02:52 AM
Bosh is not one of them.

You asked a general question, not a specific question. Regardless, stop getting bogged down in the details. A 45% shot is better than a 30% shot, etc.

You always take the ether shot.

What is our measuring stick anyways?

You were the one who said Kobe is clutch.

Levron had made more game winners. Shot a higher percentage. More assists. Less turnovers.

If he wants to pass, his track record speaks for itself. He makes the right play.

amos1er
03-27-2014, 02:57 AM
You asked a general question, not a specific question. Regardless, stop getting bogged down in the details. A 45% shot is better than a 30% shot, etc.

You always take the ether shot.

What is our measuring stick anyways?

You were the one who said Kobe is clutch.

Levron had made more game winners. Shot a higher percentage. More assists. Less turnovers.

If he wants to pass, his track record speaks for itself. He makes the right play.

Can't go by percentages. Just have to act accordingly based on the situation at hand. This is a live game, not a computer simulator. MJ very rarely needed to pass up the final shot. When he did, his guys hit and he won the game. Guess you need to know the right time to pass and the right time to shoot. Tonight Lebron made the wrong decision IMO. When you win, it's the right decision, when you lose, it's the wrong decision. Simple as that.

MyDRoseLikeDeng
03-27-2014, 02:59 AM
Let me get a couple things clear here, I strongly dislike Miami. However, for the first time since Lebron has joined the Heat, I found myself rooting for Miami as it would probably be in Chicago's best interest if Indiana fell down to the 2 seed. I was up and cheering, surprisingly, every time Miami made a clutch basket and I was pissed off when George dunked on Lebron, shockingly. What I witnessed was a Miami team that is lacking that "it" factor that they had in years past. Can they turn on the switch come playoff time? Who knows. But what I saw tonight was a team that was struggling to score offensively and that relied on jumpshot after jumpshot to keep them in the game. Also, I hate to be that guy, but if it wasnt for the REFS setting the tempo early and often that Lebron cannot be touched, Indiana would have forced Lebrons hand in the second half much more than they were able to, as they were scared to get more and more touch fouls. All in all to address the topic at hand, Lebron James IS clutch. I think he has proven that at this point in his career. HOWEVER, idc if the play is designed for Bosh, UNLESS Hibbert AND George come to double you and you are forced to pass the ball, the superstar that Lebron James is HAS to shoot that ball. He just has to.

amos1er
03-27-2014, 03:16 AM
Let me get a couple things clear here, I strongly dislike Miami. However, for the first time since Lebron has joined the Heat, I found myself rooting for Miami as it would probably be in Chicago's best interest if Indiana fell down to the 2 seed. I was up and cheering, surprisingly, every time Miami made a clutch basket and I was pissed off when George dunked on Lebron, shockingly. What I witnessed was a Miami team that is lacking that "it" factor that they had in years past. Can they turn on the switch come playoff time? Who knows. But what I saw tonight was a team that was struggling to score offensively and that relied on jumpshot after jumpshot to keep them in the game. Also, I hate to be that guy, but if it wasnt for the REFS setting the tempo early and often that Lebron cannot be touched, Indiana would have forced Lebrons hand in the second half much more than they were able to, as they were scared to get more and more touch fouls. All in all to address the topic at hand, Lebron James IS clutch. I think he has proven that at this point in his career. HOWEVER, idc if the play is designed for Bosh, UNLESS Hibbert AND George come to double you and you are forced to pass the ball, the superstar that Lebron James is HAS to shoot that ball. He just has to.

Well said.

nickdymez
03-27-2014, 03:33 AM
fact is, the most successful teams down the stretch don't play hero ball. They run actual plays and get a good shot.

Kobe has 5 rings. Hero ball

EvanTurner
03-27-2014, 03:33 AM
Is that you skip clueless? Lol but nah lebron doesnt always defer.... He does take some last second shots. And the he does pass it away more than not. But the pass tonight were smart passes because bosh was wide open. On the very last play down by one theres no way he shoukda passed because a 2 wins the game. He shoulda definitly got off a solid shot for the win but oh well thats lebron being lebron. He will take the lasr second shot vs the bobcats but in big game vs big time team he passes.

WadeKobe
03-27-2014, 03:41 AM
Can't go by percentages. Just have to act accordingly based on the situation at hand. This is a live game, not a computer simulator. MJ very rarely needed to pass up the final shot. When he did, his guys hit and he won the game. Guess you need to know the right time to pass and the right time to shoot. Tonight Lebron made the wrong decision IMO. When you win, it's the right decision, when you lose, it's the wrong decision. Simple as that.

Completely wrong. But I would expect nothin less from you. You do not understand basketball. But that's not new.

xXx J0SE 21 xXx
03-27-2014, 03:43 AM
Smh this thread is pathetic.
Lebron is at his best when he drives to the hole. 2 seconds left and being double teamed took that away. Another thing Lebron is GREAT at is distributing the basketball along w his bbiq, he knows more often then not he'll be doubled come the end of the game. So he gave the ball to a open Bosh who just missed. Nothing you can do about that. I would rather have an open player take the shot than having Lebron FORCE or CHUCK up a prayer. (Even if Lebron was to force it and make it most of yall would call it luck anyway)

As for Durant he's 6'10 - 6'11 with an amazing wingspan and has a great shot. I take nothing away from him but its easier for him to take shots over defenders because he's taller than most of them and the players who are his height tend to be pf /c who are far less mobile and athletic .

xXx J0SE 21 xXx
03-27-2014, 03:46 AM
fact is, the most successful teams down the stretch don't play hero ball. They run actual plays and get a good shot.

Kobe has 5 rings. Hero ball

3 came with a DOMINANT Shaq who was the #1 option. The other 2 he had Prime Pau and HEALTHY Bynum alongside guys like Ariza and Fisher. Those are some very good options wouldn't you say ?

tredigs
03-27-2014, 03:47 AM
Michael Jordan ruined everything. I say this because Michael Jordan hero ball is the only hero ball that actually seemed to be more effective than the smart basketball play.

For every other basketball player in the history of the world hero ball is the way to lose games.

He didn't have the look so he went to a higher percentage shot.

Fact. MJ glorified something that others are incapable of duplicating, and Lebron's decisions are unselfish and almost always correct. Durant - seen as the preeminent scorer of our generation and a cutthroat finisher - is equally willing to pass up the final shot when defenses show double-team pressure from 35 feet out. He makes the smart decisions, period.

Crackadalic
03-27-2014, 03:49 AM
Didn't lebron hit the go ahead winning layup not too long ago. Why did he did that? Because he had Lopez on him and it was the best basketball play.

Lebron James pass to Bosh that hit a 3 pointer. So what do you think he is going to do again.Lewis inbound the ball to James who was smothered by PG and he pass to who? Bosh who had enough space to make a shot he is used to making. Why did Lebron pass that instead of chucking it with a hand in his face? It was the best BASKETBALL PLAY

Just because the cool thing to do is play hero ball and everyone fan girl like crazy with hitting a impossible shot doesn't mean it's the smartest. Lebron James made the smart decision to pass to Bosh who clearly had enough space to hit the shot. He just couldn't

I swear some of you guys act like kids when it comes to things like this. Micheal Jordan as great as he is brain wash the generation that it's the way to go

Supreme LA
03-27-2014, 04:15 AM
3 came with a DOMINANT Shaq who was the #1 option. The other 2 he had Prime Pau and HEALTHY Bynum alongside guys like Ariza and Fisher. Those are some very good options wouldn't you say ?

Look, I believe Lebron made the right play and something I would hope any basketball player would do. But don't try to discredit Kobe's rings. The man was a HUGE part of those 3 rings with Shaq but people often forget because Shaq was showcased in the Finals. Nobody remembers the entire postseason the way Lakers fans do. Shaq would never have gotten by the Spurs all those years without Kobe who was flat out dominant against them and every other western conference teams including the Kings.

The same can be said about his runs with Pau. The fact that you bring Bynum up clearly shows you know nothing. Their 2009 title had nothing to do with Bynum because he barely even played when coming back from injury. Kobe led those Lakers team as the MAN throughout both postseasons for his 2 titles. Kobe continued to dominate the Spurs, the Nuggets, Utah, and even the Celtics until he had an off shooting game in game 7. No player wins titles on his own and everyone here understands that. But anyone who argues that Pau, Ariza, and Fisher played as big a role as Kobe is just plain stupid.

This is obviously a bait thread created by the OP because he either was bored and saw an opportunity to criticize Lebron or he was just bored and wanted to some opposition in debating I don't know. Lebron made the right play. He's not MJ and nobody is. He is limited in what spots he can create a good shot to which he feels confident and his skills and athleticism should only dictate him to drive and kick as he draws defenders to open up a good shot for other players. That is his greatest strength and that's why their FO has made it a point to surround him with shooters and spread the floor for him. Don't bother getting into a debate with the OP. Lebron deserves no criticism for making the RIGHT basketball play.

amos1er
03-27-2014, 05:33 AM
Kobe has 5 rings. Hero ball

Jordan... 6 rings... Hero ball.

These guys will never learn.

amos1er
03-27-2014, 05:41 AM
Didn't lebron hit the go ahead winning layup not too long ago. Why did he did that? Because he had Lopez on him and it was the best basketball play.

Lebron James pass to Bosh that hit a 3 pointer. So what do you think he is going to do again.Lewis inbound the ball to James who was smothered by PG and he pass to who? Bosh who had enough space to make a shot he is used to making. Why did Lebron pass that instead of chucking it with a hand in his face? It was the best BASKETBALL PLAY

Just because the cool thing to do is play hero ball and everyone fan girl like crazy with hitting a impossible shot doesn't mean it's the smartest. Lebron James made the smart decision to pass to Bosh who clearly had enough space to hit the shot. He just couldn't

I swear some of you guys act like kids when it comes to things like this. Micheal Jordan as great as he is brain wash the generation that it's the way to go

Or he laid out the blueprint for being the GOAT.

amos1er
03-27-2014, 05:45 AM
Completely wrong. But I would expect nothin less from you. You do not understand basketball. But that's not new.

Great retort. I loved how you addressed the points I made rather than just come back with some childish ad hominem insult that has nothing to do with the debate at hand. Props. :rolleyes:

amos1er
03-27-2014, 05:49 AM
Oh and I love how you are all attacking Jordan now for setting the wrong example when he made some of the greatest championship assists of all time to Paxson and Kerr. Jordan just knew the right time to pass and the right time to be the man and take the game over by himself. Kobe as well knew this to be true... He had a great assist to Fish in the 09 finals that clinched game 4. It's all about knowing when to make the correct basketball plays and when to be the man. Tonight, Lebron made the wrong decision... His team lost.

PhillyFaninLA
03-27-2014, 07:51 AM
Why bring Kobe into this? Thought we could expect more from a mod.

Said by someone with a TOS violation in there sig

Crackadalic
03-27-2014, 07:59 AM
Or he laid out the blueprint for being the GOAT.


Oh and I love how you are all attacking Jordan now for setting the wrong example when he made some of the greatest championship assists of all time to Paxson and Kerr. Jordan just knew the right time to pass and the right time to be the man and take the game over by himself. Kobe as well knew this to be true... He had a great assist to Fish in the 09 finals that clinched game 4. It's all about knowing when to make the correct basketball plays and when to be the man. Tonight, Lebron made the wrong decision... His team lost.

For one nobody is attacking jordan. The way he did things is unhuman. The problem is everyone else is and unless you have the killing drive that matches or exceeds his you can't think shooting a game winner double team is the way to go even if Jordan made those shots like its nothing

I also like how you said that kobe and jordan knew when to pass etc but what about the plays when they pass and their teammates miss. People don't talk about it

Lebron James made the right basketball play. Bosh just miss a easy jumper. If you want lebron to do a contested 3 over the best man to man defender in the game then everyone would bash him even more

Lion
03-27-2014, 08:02 AM
Lebron defers? says who? amosloser?

kdspurman
03-27-2014, 09:05 AM
It's not on Lebron, it's on Spo who drew up that play. (though it was a good play to draw up) Could they have drawn up something with Lebron slashing to the basket to take a dribble and get a shot off or get fouled? Probably. But seems they did try that against the Nets recently and it got broken up and cost them the game. Bosh had just hit a 3, and he's a rhythm shooter and has hit game winners before.

TheIlladelph16
03-27-2014, 09:26 AM
TIL: It doesn't matter if you are covered or even double-teamed, you are simply a coward if you don't take the dumbest shot available on the basketball court. Thanks Amoser. You continue to strengthen your sterling reputation on these boards.

Goose17
03-27-2014, 09:34 AM
Lebron has a high basketball I.Q and goes with whatever the best basketball play is at that time. Sometimes that means deferring.

The difference between Lebron and the "great ones" that came before him have been misconstrued, it's nothing to do with killer instinct, everything to do with being a good team mate.

Goose17
03-27-2014, 09:35 AM
It might have been considered smart had the Heat won... Which they didn't. That's why we really have to question it. So many times throughout his career James has shied away from taking the "final shot". That is one of the biggest knocks on his game. Would he be more successful as a "winner" if he was a guy who was confident in creating his own shot rather than passing and making the "smart basketball play"? That is the big question here...

Back to back championships is a pretty successful "winner" if you ask me.

And statistically, Lebron is more clutch than Kobe ever was.

t_money25
03-27-2014, 09:54 AM
Everybody who's posting here criticizing LeBron for not going hero ball are Lakers stans.

Why aren't Jordan stans in here doing the same thing? It's because they aren't insecure. They know hero ball actually worked for Jordan.

Post of the year right here.....I don't think there's ever been a more accurate statement made here!!

sturm
03-27-2014, 10:00 AM
To be in honest i am glad that we lost this game. And LeBron made right decision. The result will be better team play and success for every player. Its nothing to do with Lebrons guts or whatever.point.

Slug3
03-27-2014, 10:02 AM
Look, I believe Lebron made the right play and something I would hope any basketball player would do. But don't try to discredit Kobe's rings. The man was a HUGE part of those 3 rings with Shaq but people often forget because Shaq was showcased in the Finals. Nobody remembers the entire postseason the way Lakers fans do. Shaq would never have gotten by the Spurs all those years without Kobe who was flat out dominant against them and every other western conference teams including the Kings.

The same can be said about his runs with Pau. The fact that you bring Bynum up clearly shows you know nothing. Their 2009 title had nothing to do with Bynum because he barely even played when coming back from injury. Kobe led those Lakers team as the MAN throughout both postseasons for his 2 titles. Kobe continued to dominate the Spurs, the Nuggets, Utah, and even the Celtics until he had an off shooting game in game 7. No player wins titles on his own and everyone here understands that. But anyone who argues that Pau, Ariza, and Fisher played as big a role as Kobe is just plain stupid.

This is obviously a bait thread created by the OP because he either was bored and saw an opportunity to criticize Lebron or he was just bored and wanted to some opposition in debating I don't know. Lebron made the right play. He's not MJ and nobody is. He is limited in what spots he can create a good shot to which he feels confident and his skills and athleticism should only dictate him to drive and kick as he draws defenders to open up a good shot for other players. That is his greatest strength and that's why their FO has made it a point to surround him with shooters and spread the floor for him. Don't bother getting into a debate with the OP. Lebron deserves no criticism for making the RIGHT basketball play.


Being from Southern CA I watched all these LA teams go on there runs. And they along with Kobe killed it. But some Laker fans (not saying you) act like Kobe did everything. When you bring up Fishers .4 shot or Horrys 3 at the top of the key against the Kings it becomes a diffenert story to them. Somehow Allen making a 3 to tie it last year is a million times different than Horry making a 3 at the top of the key. They have such a biased opinion that the same exact plays are different in their head.

beyourself
03-27-2014, 10:12 AM
Yes Kobe has a lower percentage for game winners than LeBron, but he also takes ill advised game winners which lower his percentages. Just being real here. But that's his fault, he's trying to be Jordan and he's not Jordan so it bites him in the azz. Thank god for Shaq and Gasol.

LeBron passes out of double teams because it's the smart play and jump shooting off the dribble is the worst part of his game. He's not scared or unclutch. It's just not his strength.

Durant is the 2nd greatest scorer in NBA history. Even he doesn't try and duplicate what Jordan does. When he does try he's the closest thing to duplicating hero ball to Jordan that I've seen. But that's just because he's better at scoring that anybody besides Jordan and his jumper is so wet. But even still he usually makes the smart play.

So hero ball is dumb.

sturm
03-27-2014, 10:17 AM
Agree with Durants ability to shoot the ball. He is from another world.

t_money25
03-27-2014, 10:18 AM
TIL: It doesn't matter if you are covered or even double-teamed, you are simply a coward if you don't take the dumbest shot available on the basketball court. Thanks Amoser. You continue to strengthen your sterling reputation on these boards.

LMAO!! Good one!

t_money25
03-27-2014, 10:29 AM
The lack of basketball knowledge in this thread is amazing. I really didn't know so many posters here didn't understand the game to this degree. BASKETBALL 101 says (which we teach kids regularly) pass the ball to the OPEN player for the BEST shot possible. Doesn't get any simpler than that.

nickdymez
03-27-2014, 11:16 AM
Basketball iq sometimes takes a backseat when it's time to be great. If any of you played you would understand that unless it's a terrible horrible shot, the 6'8, 255 unguadable man should take that shot. That's why he's who he is I thought. But it's fine, he scored 38. His fans really only care about his efficiency and stats so they have an argument for why he's the goat.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

Teeboy1487
03-27-2014, 11:31 AM
While I would prefer Lebron shooting the last shot over Bosh, he made the right basketball play. I don't question Lebron's ability in the clutch anymore after he has proven he can hit big shots for his team. Just this year he hit a game winner against GS over the contested hand of Andre Iguodola who is one of the best perimeter defenders in the NBA. If he took the bad shot and missed, you would say he is a choke artist. It's no big deal for me. It's just one game.

Teeboy1487
03-27-2014, 11:34 AM
Why is Kobe in this thread? His legacy is cemented and has 5 rings to show for it.

beliges
03-27-2014, 12:04 PM
because hero ball like Kobe has played has proven to be exponentially the lesser way to win in the last seconds.....

I think "hero" ball from Kobe has proven to be extremely successful for Kobe. Lebron does not have the offensive arsenal or outside jumper that some of these other players have. He is not what you would consider a clutch scorer. His value is in other aspects of the game. Just because you're the best player on your team doesn't mean you're the best closer. And in Miamis case, guys like wade and allen are much better equipped to take the last shot than Lebron.

ManRam
03-27-2014, 12:09 PM
Because a wide open shot is always better than a heavily contested one :shrug:

He's not selfish :shrug:


He certainly doesn't always defer either. He just makes the best basketball play available :shrug:

ILLUSIONIST^248
03-27-2014, 12:14 PM
On the three final possessions of tonights crucial game that could have conceivably decided the number one seed in the east, Lebron deferred on the final three possessions refusing to take a shot once again. Would it have made a difference if Lebron had stepped up and created a shot for himself? Or has he just accepted his role as the guy who just isn't going to shoot with the game on the line? Pretty hard to compare him to guys like Kobe, Jordan, Magic, and Bird when they all had the ball in their hands to take the shot when it was money time. Then again, perhaps being the guy to take the final shot is overrated. Maybe it's a better decision to create a play for an open shooter rather than take a contested shot on your own. Discuss...

Same lebron he's always been. Hes always been afraid of big shots vs good teams.

goingfor28
03-27-2014, 12:17 PM
No issue with what he did tonight. Leaders don't take bad shots. They find the right ones. Bosh made a 3 and just missed the jumper at the end while he (LeBron) was about to be doubled.

just missed at the end? it was an airball

ILLUSIONIST^248
03-27-2014, 12:18 PM
because hero ball like Kobe has played has proven to be exponentially the lesser way to win in the last seconds.....

So you'd rather have your star give the ball away I the closing seconds? It's not hero ball, it's called being a man and stepping up when your team needs you!

ILLUSIONIST^248
03-27-2014, 12:23 PM
Really? Come on that's uncalled for. Why even start that discussion. This is about Lebron only.

are you ****ing serious? Look at the person who created this thread.....

He is you times a million as a kobephile

That doesn't mean anything especially since you guys banned me for doing the same thing.

ILLUSIONIST^248
03-27-2014, 12:28 PM
Because a wide open shot is always better than a heavily contested one :shrug:

He's not selfish :shrug:


He certainly doesn't always defer either. He just makes the best basketball play available :shrug:

"Not selfish" yet everyone's stats but lebrons have gone down since joining him.

mjm07
03-27-2014, 12:28 PM
Funny, according to most so called "Heat fans" Bosh is basically a scrub and lucky to be along for the ride Lebron is taking him on.

You're a joke, Sir. No logical Heat fans would ever say that. But like every fanbase we have some bad apples. You're a prime example. ;) LBJ did the right thing in passing it to BOSH. He's been successful taking the last shot and he's been successful setting up other players to take better/higher percentage late game shot. He's also missed shots and passed up shots. It happens. Continue hating though. :cool:

Chronz
03-27-2014, 12:30 PM
I think "hero" ball from Kobe has proven to be extremely successful for Kobe.
Not in the clutch, its why his teams have such a dropoff in their rate of success.


Lebron does not have the offensive arsenal or outside jumper that some of these other players have. He is not what you would consider a clutch scorer.
Then why have the Heat been so clutch the last 2 years? Particularly with Bron scoring so much in clutch situations. Can we define clutch because going by standard definitions, what you're saying is so beyond reality that it makes no sense.


His value is in other aspects of the game. Just because you're the best player on your team doesn't mean you're the best closer. And in Miamis case, guys like wade and allen are much better equipped to take the last shot than Lebron.
Closing doesn't equate to the last shot. But if it does, then I would agree with Wade, but Allen would need to be set up.

ManRam
03-27-2014, 12:35 PM
Same lebron he's always been. Hes always been afraid of big shots vs good teams.

First off. Last night on the final shot he caught the ball running away from the rim about 6 feet beyond the ark. Look where he is when he passes it. Not passing it to a WIDE OPEN Bosh would have been the WRONG move. Period.

http://i59.tinypic.com/f0546o.png

On the three that Bosh hit, yes, he passed it to Bosh quickly. Bosh also got a WIDE OPEN shot off. Why are we criticizing the league's 2nd or 3rd best passer for passing the ball to a WIDE OPEN player? LeBron is just playing the game no differently than he always does, and that's the best way to do it. Bosh shoots 40% from three on that spot of the court. That's a GREAT shot. And he hit it. He made the right basketball play and we're criticizing him for some misguided personality trait? Pardon him for not being selfish and jacking up 40 shots over two defenders...

But the notion he's scared, if you're still desperate enough to slander him and are still using it, is silly. It's not silly, actually, it's just wrong.

Since 2004, no player has taken more shots in game-tying/go-ahead situations in the final 24 seconds of a playoff game. Those are the "clutchest" situations that exist and he's got the most volume of anyone. Sure, he's probably been in more chances to do just that than most star players, but he's not shying away from them that much.

He's 6-14 when it comes to game-tying/go-ahead field goal attempts in the final 10 seconds of postseason games. MJ was 7-15. Kobe is 5-22. Again, the volume is there, the efficiency is there too.

More proof of volume: http://www.libertyballers.com/2012/2/29/2832299/lebron-james-kobe-bryant-dwyane-wade-clutch-nba-playoffs-4th-quarter

The notion that he's scared of doing it is silly. It's more than he's just not an idiot and continues to do what he does best. People love guys who take these shots without hesitation, even if they shoot 30% while doing so. Give me the guy who will treat the play like any other...and thus make the best possible basketball play. That's why both he and his teams have been so successful in the "clutch" lately. They don't (well...at least as much as most) go into silly hero ball mode where the odds of success are so little. They just play basketball.

I'm just gonna quote Couper Moorhead...


James is wired differently. He is the rare player that doesn’t care what paragraphs will be written on deadline or what hashtag might be trending. He’s smart, he wants to make the best basketball play possible, and he’s so talented that he usually does. He knows the open shot is better than the shot in traffic, so it shouldn’t have surprised a single soul that with the HEAT up one on the Denver Nuggets in the final minute last night, James attracted the defense and found Norris Cole, waiting patiently on Corner Three Island.

ManRam
03-27-2014, 12:37 PM
"Not selfish" yet everyone's stats but lebrons have gone down since joining him.

EDIT: I don't know why I bother with the most delusional poster on the site. You're not worth the words.

flea
03-27-2014, 12:41 PM
They're criticizing Lebron for making the right play because they're Kobephiles who are used to the failures of hero ball.

ManRam
03-27-2014, 12:42 PM
I think "hero" ball from Kobe has proven to be extremely successful for Kobe. Lebron does not have the offensive arsenal or outside jumper that some of these other players have. He is not what you would consider a clutch scorer. His value is in other aspects of the game. Just because you're the best player on your team doesn't mean you're the best closer.

Statistically, and hell...factually speaking, nothing you are saying here is even remotely true.

Exhibit 1: http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time
Exhibit 2: http://www.libertyballers.com/2012/2/29/2832299/lebron-james-kobe-bryant-dwyane-wade-clutch-nba-playoffs-4th-quarter
Exhibit 3: http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/58575/lebron-james-isnt-clutch-think-again
Exhibit 4: http://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/1rd882/a_thorough_analysis_comparing_lebron_and_kobes/
Exhibit 5: http://blogs.thescore.com/tbj/2012/05/16/clutch-wars-lebron-vs-kobe-part-2-the-numbers-strike-back/

It goes on and on and on.

Regardless of where you look, Kobe is somewhere in the 30% range in clutch shooting. If that's hero ball "working", well...yikes.

Yanks All Day
03-27-2014, 12:46 PM
Chris Bosh JUST hit the 3 pointer to pull within one point. He's one of the best mid-range shooters in the NBA. He was then wide open while the defense collapsed on LeBron. It was a good pass for a great look that just missed. It happens.

That's the right basketball play. Every coach in the universe would endorse it. It also happened in a game that was in no way a "must win" for Miami. They know they can go on the road and win playoff games. If they lose a regular season game, then so be it.

bootypants
03-27-2014, 12:49 PM
he does defer, I forget if it was a playoff game or whatever but he passed to Haslem for a jumper and he missed. He chose to defer when he joined the likes of 2 other stars. Tonight the last play was designed I believe for Bosh. Kobe would always get the ball in a chance to win. Shows Spo doesnt have the confidence LeBron would hit it. Its well known that LeBron has never had the clutch factor.

You realize lebron is shooting the highest fg% for gamewinners or go head tying FG in last 24 seconds of playoffs since 2002 right? He is at 43.8%....... Kobe isn't even top 5.

Oh and MJ was 50%..... soooo ? Whats the issue here?

ILLUSIONIST^248
03-27-2014, 12:50 PM
"Not selfish" yet everyone's stats but lebrons have gone down since joining him.

EDIT: I don't know why I bother with the most delusional poster on the site. You're not worth the words.

Please explain to me why every single player on the Heat has taken a statistical blow since playing with Lebron?

bootypants
03-27-2014, 12:52 PM
Best FG Pct on Game-Tying/Go-Ahead FG
Final 24 Secs. of 4th Qtr/OT, Past 10 Postseasons

FG%
LeBron James 43.8% 7-16
Kevin Durant 41.7% 5-12
Dirk Nowitzki 41.7% 5-12
Manu Ginobili 30.0% 3-10


Kobe is 29% 5-17

Yanks All Day
03-27-2014, 12:53 PM
Please explain to me why every single player on the Heat has taken a statistical blow since playing with Lebron?

Probably because LeBron is the best player in the universe and deserves to take the most shots. Naturally, role players are going to give up something to tailor their games around LeBron. Fewer shots lead to less points, but LeBron's overall game has led them to more wins and, more importantly, championships. I think they'd do that trade any day of the week.

Chronz
03-27-2014, 12:54 PM
"Not selfish" yet everyone's stats but lebrons have gone down since joining him.
Is that suppose to debunk what he said?

Chronz
03-27-2014, 12:57 PM
Probably because LeBron is the best player in the universe and deserves to take the most shots. Naturally, role players are going to give up something to tailor their games around LeBron. Fewer shots lead to less points, but LeBron's overall game has led them to more wins and, more importantly, championships. I think they'd do that trade any day of the week.

How selfish of Bron, to do whatever it takes for HIS team to win. He reads the games and reacts accordingly. SELFISH

SeoulBeatz
03-27-2014, 12:59 PM
On the three final possessions of tonights crucial game that could have conceivably decided the number one seed in the east, Lebron deferred on the final three possessions refusing to take a shot once again. Would it have made a difference if Lebron had stepped up and created a shot for himself? Or has he just accepted his role as the guy who just isn't going to shoot with the game on the line? Pretty hard to compare him to guys like Kobe, Jordan, Magic, and Bird when they all had the ball in their hands to take the shot when it was money time. Then again, perhaps being the guy to take the final shot is overrated. Maybe it's a better decision to create a play for an open shooter rather than take a contested shot on your own. Discuss...

I'm not a Lebron fan but this is just trolling. Lebron has made plenty of clutch shots in his career.

I watched the entirety of yesterday's game and he was as aggressive as he had to be (He accounted for HALF of Miami's points late in the game!!!)

The final play where he dished it off to Bosh was the right move to make, but Bosh was unbalanced and the pass could have been delivered better so it led to an air ball.

But if you rewatch the play, you'll notice George was right up on LBJ and West was hedging over ready to trap him if he took a step in. He would have had to settle for a 25 ft double-teamed three (yeah, not a good look, I don't care how good you are). Instead the play was designed to go to Bosh since everyone in the world "knew" Lebron was going to take the shot. Bosh was hitting his long-jumpers last night so Spoelstra had enough faith to give him the last look.

It was a great play, but poorly executed.

It had nothing with Lebron being "afraid".

SeoulBeatz
03-27-2014, 01:01 PM
Statistically, and hell...factually speaking, nothing you are saying here is even remotely true.

Exhibit 1: http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time
Exhibit 2: http://www.libertyballers.com/2012/2/29/2832299/lebron-james-kobe-bryant-dwyane-wade-clutch-nba-playoffs-4th-quarter
Exhibit 3: http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/58575/lebron-james-isnt-clutch-think-again
Exhibit 4: http://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/1rd882/a_thorough_analysis_comparing_lebron_and_kobes/
Exhibit 5: http://blogs.thescore.com/tbj/2012/05/16/clutch-wars-lebron-vs-kobe-part-2-the-numbers-strike-back/

It goes on and on and on.

Regardless of where you look, Kobe is somewhere in the 30% range in clutch shooting. If that's hero ball "working", well...yikes.

Great post. People pull **** out of their *** all the time. Even players considered clutch like Kobe shoot 30% in those situations.

ThuglifeJ
03-27-2014, 01:01 PM
Lebron apologists :clap::clap:

Be a man LeBron and take the ball against your single defender to try and win the game if you want that respect as a closer. Maybe he doesn't want it, who knows, but it seems to be more than a coincidence that Lebron starts to defer and play more timid when the greatness of the moment rises.

beliges
03-27-2014, 01:06 PM
Not in the clutch, its why his teams have such a dropoff in their rate of success.


Then why have the Heat been so clutch the last 2 years? Particularly with Bron scoring so much in clutch situations. Can we define clutch because going by standard definitions, what you're saying is so beyond reality that it makes no sense.


Closing doesn't equate to the last shot. But if it does, then I would agree with Wade, but Allen would need to be set up.

Not sure what your definition of clutch is, but the Lakers have had more success in clutch situations since 2000 I would argue than any other team and Kobe was the focal point during those situations. All you need to do is check the track record and success, especially in huge postseason games. I dont think there is much of an argument here. And I am not denying that Miami has been clutch over the last couple of seasons. You do not win back to back championships by not being tops in terms of clutch play. But for Miami, Lebron is NOT the go to guy at the end of the game. He is not a clutch type player you want to take the last shot. For Miami, those guys are Wade and Allen. I dont think its a novel concept to state Lebron is not great in the clutch.

flea
03-27-2014, 01:09 PM
Not sure what your definition of clutch is, but the Lakers have had more success in clutch situations since 2000 I would argue than any other team and Kobe was the focal point during those situations. All you need to do is check the track record and success, especially in huge postseason games. I dont think there is much of an argument here. And I am not denying that Miami has been clutch over the last couple of seasons. You do not win back to back championships by not being tops in terms of clutch play. But for Miami, Lebron is NOT the go to guy at the end of the game. He is not a clutch type player you want to take the last shot. For Miami, those guys are Wade and Allen. I dont think its a novel concept to state Lebron is not great in the clutch.

So even when presented evidence that Lebron is appreciably better than Kobe in your "clutch instances," you are just going to assert that the Lakers are better at it for the last decade (without evidence) and be on your merry way. Just another day at the office for the Kobephiles.

Chronz
03-27-2014, 01:09 PM
Best FG Pct on Game-Tying/Go-Ahead FG
Final 24 Secs. of 4th Qtr/OT, Past 10 Postseasons

FG%
LeBron James 43.8% 7-16
Kevin Durant 41.7% 5-12
Dirk Nowitzki 41.7% 5-12
Manu Ginobili 30.0% 3-10


Kobe is 29% 5-17

In Kobe's defense, some of those misses still led to wins.

The airball vs Houston where Shaq picked it up and slammed it home. The brick vs the Thunder where Pau crashed the glass with perfect timing for the follow up putback, and who can forget the brick vs the Suns that led to Artest putting back in. Might be forgetting his other misses but IIRC, he got one of those game winners with an offensive put back over the twin towers.

Kobe is so clutch, even when he misses he can win.

beliges
03-27-2014, 01:10 PM
Statistically, and hell...factually speaking, nothing you are saying here is even remotely true.

Exhibit 1: http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time
Exhibit 2: http://www.libertyballers.com/2012/2/29/2832299/lebron-james-kobe-bryant-dwyane-wade-clutch-nba-playoffs-4th-quarter
Exhibit 3: http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/58575/lebron-james-isnt-clutch-think-again
Exhibit 4: http://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/1rd882/a_thorough_analysis_comparing_lebron_and_kobes/
Exhibit 5: http://blogs.thescore.com/tbj/2012/05/16/clutch-wars-lebron-vs-kobe-part-2-the-numbers-strike-back/

It goes on and on and on.

Regardless of where you look, Kobe is somewhere in the 30% range in clutch shooting. If that's hero ball "working", well...yikes.

Sorry bro, but your definition of clutch is not what I am talking about. Its simply making those big shots during the final stretches of the game. That could be when there is 1 second on the clock or 1 minute on the clock. I don't think I need to debate Kobe's "clutchness" here. Im pretty sure any reasonable basketball fan can agree that Kobe is one of the 3 or 4 most clutch performers the game has seen.

The entire point here is that Lebron is not one of the top clutch performers in this league. I think there would be a handful of guys I would want with the ball in their hands in the final minute of a close game over Lebron. Especially if I had to make just one final bucket.

Chronz
03-27-2014, 01:11 PM
Lebron apologists :clap::clap:

Be a man LeBron and take the ball against your single defender to try and win the game if you want that respect as a closer. Maybe he doesn't want it, who knows, but it seems to be more than a coincidence that Lebron starts to defer and play more timid when the greatness of the moment rises.
Maybe he knows greatness isn't defined by respect, but by results.

Htownballa1622
03-27-2014, 01:11 PM
Lebron apologists :clap::clap:

Be a man LeBron and take the ball against your single defender to try and win the game if you want that respect as a closer. Maybe he doesn't want it, who knows, but it seems to be more than a coincidence that Lebron starts to defer and play more timid when the greatness of the moment rises.

Force up a shot instead of hitting the open guy?

I guess you've missed moments like game 6 against Boston facing elimination a few years ago.

beliges
03-27-2014, 01:13 PM
So even when presented evidence that Lebron is appreciably better than Kobe in your "clutch instances," you are just going to assert that the Lakers are better at it for the last decade (without evidence) and be on your merry way. Just another day at the office for the Kobephiles.

LOL. When someone claims Lebron is more "clutch" than Kobe is where this conversation ends. No need to beat a dead horse here.

DoMeFavors
03-27-2014, 01:15 PM
Untill I see a change in LeBron like he is the baddest man on the planet and best player in basketball he will continue to be 2nd in the league to me. Great example of classic LeBron

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fdqy27KsqYk

Chronz
03-27-2014, 01:16 PM
Not sure what your definition of clutch is,
The same definition as those employed within the NBA/scouting sites. Whats yours?


but the Lakers have had more success in clutch situations since 2000 I would argue than any other team and Kobe was the focal point during those situations. All you need to do is check the track record and success, especially in huge postseason games. I dont think there is much of an argument here.
That depends, how are you defining it? Because based on all the evidence, there is a hell of an argument. The Lakers offense has shriveled in final possessions despite having the talent to dominate during the other 99% of possessions. Literally no other team see a bigger discrepancy in their efficiency than the Lakers do from start to finish. But thats just 1 example of clutch performance, what is yours?



And I am not denying that Miami has been clutch over the last couple of seasons. You do not win back to back championships by not being tops in terms of clutch play.
The Heat did not but its very possible to win a title without being one of the best clutch teams


But for Miami, Lebron is NOT the go to guy at the end of the game. He is not a clutch type player you want to take the last shot. For Miami, those guys are Wade and Allen. I dont think its a novel concept to state Lebron is not great in the clutch.

Ill just copy and paste, this time bold the facts you avoided.

Then why have the Heat been so clutch the last 2 years? Particularly with Bron scoring so much in clutch situations. Can we define clutch because going by standard definitions, what you're saying is so beyond reality that it makes no sense.


Closing doesn't equate to the last shot. But if it does, then I would agree with Wade, but Allen would need to be set up.

tredigs
03-27-2014, 01:20 PM
LOL. When someone claims Lebron is more "clutch" than Kobe is where this conversation ends. No need to beat a dead horse here.

Kobe may in fact have bigger b-ball nuts and thicker skin than Lebron, and really I think that's all you guys want to hear. On the court, Lebron is much more about simply making the smartest basketball play. He doesn't seem to care if it's in minute 1 or 48. He trusts who he plays with. And ultimately, that's why his teammates love him and he leads his squads so far, so often.

beliges
03-27-2014, 01:21 PM
The same definition as those employed within the NBA/scouting sites. Whats yours?


That depends, how are you defining it? Because based on all the evidence, there is a hell of an argument. The Lakers offense has shriveled in final possessions despite having the talent to dominate during the other 99% of possessions. Literally no other team see a bigger discrepancy in their efficiency than the Lakers do from start to finish. But thats just 1 example of clutch performance, what is yours?



The Heat did not but its very possible to win a title without being one of the best clutch teams


Ill just copy and paste, this time bold the facts you avoided.

Then why have the Heat been so clutch the last 2 years? Particularly with Bron scoring so much in clutch situations. Can we define clutch because going by standard definitions, what you're saying is so beyond reality that it makes no sense.


Closing doesn't equate to the last shot. But if it does, then I would agree with Wade, but Allen would need to be set up.

Let me give you a very quick breakdown. Any team that wins a championship is clutch. Any team that wins 5 championships in 10 years is easily the most clutch team in the league. Any player that is the absolute go to guy, facilitator and decision maker on those championship teams down the stretch is absolutely clutch. For the Lakers, that was Kobe and they won 5 freaking championships while beating amazing teams during close games time and time again. For the Heat, that guy is NOT Lebron. It is more Wade and Allen than Lebron. Its just how it is. No knock on Lebron for not being the most clutch player. The GMs all agree as well since they have never voted him the most feared player down the stretch. That accolade had always gone to Kobe, and now has been transferred to Durant and CP3 as they now are the most clutch players in this league.

No matter how you want to look at it, Lebron never was and still isnt the top clutch player in this league. He may be the best player in the league, but down the stretch, when you absolutely need a bucket, Lebron is not the guy to get it for you.

beliges
03-27-2014, 01:24 PM
Kobe may in fact have bigger b-ball nuts and thicker skin than Lebron, and really I think that's all you guys want to hear. On the court, Lebron is much more about simply making the smartest basketball play. He doesn't seem to care if it's in minute 1 or 48. He trusts who he plays with. And ultimately, that's why his teammates love him and he leads his squads so far, so often.

The smartest basketball play for Lebron in a last second shot moment is to find an open teammate because he is not as gifted a scorer from the perimeter as some of his teammates. There is nothing wrong with that. I think Lebron fans are trying to make him out to be something he is not. Nobody is denying that Lebron is the best player in the world. However, he is far from being the most clutch player in the world. And there is nothing wrong with that.

mjm07
03-27-2014, 01:26 PM
Untill I see a change in LeBron like he is the baddest man on the planet and best player in basketball he will continue to be 2nd in the league to me. Great example of classic LeBron

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fdqy27KsqYk

Him blowing by PG to win a playoff game last yr isn't bad *** enough for you?

bootypants
03-27-2014, 01:28 PM
Let me give you a very quick breakdown. Any team that wins a championship is clutch. Any team that wins 5 championships in 10 years is easily the most clutch team in the league. Any player that is the absolute go to guy, facilitator and decision maker on those championship teams down the stretch is absolutely clutch. For the Lakers, that was Kobe and they won 5 freaking championships while beating amazing teams during close games time and time again. For the Heat, that guy is NOT Lebron. It is more Wade and Allen than Lebron. Its just how it is. No knock on Lebron for not being the most clutch player. The GMs all agree as well since they have never voted him the most feared player down the stretch. That accolade had always gone to Kobe, and now has been transferred to Durant and CP3 as they now are the most clutch players in this league.

No matter how you want to look at it, Lebron never was and still isnt the top clutch player in this league. He may be the best player in the league, but down the stretch, when you absolutely need a bucket, Lebron is not the guy to get it for you.

Wait what? cp3 for a few game winners? really? come on now..... Down by 2 im taking lebron faced to the hoop over cp3 faced to the hoop with seconds remaining. Cp3 hasnt even taken enough game winning shots to be in the discussion yet. He has had less than 10 since entering the league in the playoffs.

Chronz
03-27-2014, 01:31 PM
Its simply making those big shots during the final stretches of the game.
What about the misses? Do we just discount those?

flea
03-27-2014, 01:31 PM
Let me give you a very quick breakdown. Any team that wins a championship is clutch. Any team that wins 5 championships in 10 years is easily the most clutch team in the league. Any player that is the absolute go to guy, facilitator and decision maker on those championship teams down the stretch is absolutely clutch. For the Lakers, that was Kobe and they won 5 freaking championships while beating amazing teams during close games time and time again. For the Heat, that guy is NOT Lebron. It is more Wade and Allen than Lebron. Its just how it is. No knock on Lebron for not being the most clutch player. The GMs all agree as well since they have never voted him the most feared player down the stretch. That accolade had always gone to Kobe, and now has been transferred to Durant and CP3 as they now are the most clutch players in this league.

No matter how you want to look at it, Lebron never was and still isnt the top clutch player in this league. He may be the best player in the league, but down the stretch, when you absolutely need a bucket, Lebron is not the guy to get it for you.

Oh so when it becomes disgustingly apparent that Kobe is not clutch, you Kobephiles just go ahead and change the defintion of clutch. Now it means having Shaq carry you to a 3peat when you're in your early 20s! How clutch!

tredigs
03-27-2014, 01:34 PM
The smartest basketball play for Lebron in a last second shot moment is to find an open teammate because he is not as gifted a scorer from the perimeter as some of his teammates. There is nothing wrong with that. I think Lebron fans are trying to make him out to be something he is not. Nobody is denying that Lebron is the best player in the world. However, he is far from being the most clutch player in the world. And there is nothing wrong with that.

You'd be hard pressed to find a player more suited to have the ball in their hands at the end of the game. They know that if they single team him he will blow by 90% of the leagues best defenders, and if they give him too much space he can and will take the shot (or sometimes even if he has no space, like he did over Iggy and my Dubs earlier this season for the 1 point last second dagger win), but the majority of the time he will use his nearly unparalleled vision+strength+precision to be able to pass the ball to any man on the court where he senses the most open shot at the time. That's an ability that almost nobody else has, and I'm glad he's not too succumbed by his own ego to use that ability and find one of his many quality jump shooters to take the open look rather than himself taking the ultra contested one.

And let's not pretend that he hasn't taken dozens upon dozens of last second shots and hit plenty of him. It's just that he can do so much more than that for the team, and he isn't afraid to orchestrate those scenarios. I give him huge props for that. Multi-faceted, dynamic and unpredictable from beginning to end. The main reason why he's been the best for as long as he has.

Jamiecballer
03-27-2014, 01:59 PM
Michael Jordan ruined everything. I say this because Michael Jordan hero ball is the only hero ball that actually seemed to be more effective than the smart basketball play.

For every other basketball player in the history of the world hero ball is the way to lose games.

He didn't have the look so he went to a higher percentage shot.
amen. it's a sad time when making the right basketball play instead of forcing it is now seen as a weakness.

**** you michael. **** you iverson. **** you kobe.

Raps18-19 Champ
03-27-2014, 02:04 PM
Smart basketball.

Lebron has tried to play hero ball before and he's seen first hand it does more bad than good. Learn from your mistakes and do what you are supposed to do. Make the right play.

xXx J0SE 21 xXx
03-27-2014, 02:13 PM
3 came with a DOMINANT Shaq who was the #1 option. The other 2 he had Prime Pau and HEALTHY Bynum alongside guys like Ariza and Fisher. Those are some very good options wouldn't you say ?

Look, I believe Lebron made the right play and something I would hope any basketball player would do. But don't try to discredit Kobe's rings. The man was a HUGE part of those 3 rings with Shaq but people often forget because Shaq was showcased in the Finals. Nobody remembers the entire postseason the way Lakers fans do. Shaq would never have gotten by the Spurs all those years without Kobe who was flat out dominant against them and every other western conference teams including the Kings.

The same can be said about his runs with Pau. The fact that you bring Bynum up clearly shows you know nothing. Their 2009 title had nothing to do with Bynum because he barely even played when coming back from injury. Kobe led those Lakers team as the MAN throughout both postseasons for his 2 titles. Kobe continued to dominate the Spurs, the Nuggets, Utah, and even the Celtics until he had an off shooting game in game 7. No player wins titles on his own and everyone here understands that. But anyone who argues that Pau, Ariza, and Fisher played as big a role as Kobe is just plain stupid.

This is obviously a bait thread created by the OP because he either was bored and saw an opportunity to criticize Lebron or he was just bored and wanted to some opposition in debating I don't know. Lebron made the right play. He's not MJ and nobody is. He is limited in what spots he can create a good shot to which he feels confident and his skills and athleticism should only dictate him to drive and kick as he draws defenders to open up a good shot for other players. That is his greatest strength and that's why their FO has made it a point to surround him with shooters and spread the floor for him. Don't bother getting into a debate with the OP. Lebron deserves no criticism for making the RIGHT basketball play.

Noone is trying to discredit Kobe's rings. Kobe is great but dont act like he had a bunch bums on his team, when he did have scrubs on his team (smush and kwame) how were the lakers doing ?

You have to get to the Finals dont you to win right? 8.3 rebounds15.0 ppg 1.3 blcks in 65 games… and yes he was hurt in the finals but def helped get the lakers there.
Pau averaged a double double in the 09-10 finals- 18.6 ppg 11.6 rbds 3.7assists 2.6blocks


Come on now lets be real here smh

3RDASYSTEM
03-27-2014, 02:24 PM
On the three final possessions of tonights crucial game that could have conceivably decided the number one seed in the east, Lebron deferred on the final three possessions refusing to take a shot once again. Would it have made a difference if Lebron had stepped up and created a shot for himself? Or has he just accepted his role as the guy who just isn't going to shoot with the game on the line? Pretty hard to compare him to guys like Kobe, Jordan, Magic, and Bird when they all had the ball in their hands to take the shot when it was money time. Then again, perhaps being the guy to take the final shot is overrated. Maybe it's a better decision to create a play for an open shooter rather than take a contested shot on your own. Discuss...

Outside of MAGIC hitting that skyhook against C's in finals when did he not defer to ALCINDOR/WORTHY at end of games? BRON is more MAGIC/KIDD/OSCAR as far as what he is and what he brings to the table so why do you keep mentioning JORDAN and the backupguard turned starter when speaking on him deferring?

why do NASH/CP3/STOCKTON overpass? because its they style of play/game

who had more impact from day 1 when drafted, bean Bryant going to a 53 win team or BRON going to a 20 win CAVS team? and don't forget both had they teams in the finals yr4 but one had a mate of SHAQ and the other had BIG Z

that's how you rank and judge players, not by who defers at the end because last I checked MILLER/BATTIER/RIO all shot out they mind so why not defer if it leads to wide open shots for shooters? but don't forget BRON didn't defer all the way up the 11' finals, and then he didn't defer in 12' finals but im sure according to you he did, just like he didn't defer in 13' finals

its just when you are playing with BOSH/WADE and other past all stars who can still play you tend to defer because it helps you out and maintain the team chemistry/confidence and also shows to what type of talent it is now that he is in south beach, night and day

why is bean Bryant always bumping heads with his big men from SHAQ to HOWARD? because he wouldn't defer of lakers being his 'team' right? backupguards gone mad

and I have heard all this talk about 'making the right play', but you just want him to shoot the last second shot so you can compare him to your idol chucking shot taker bean Bryant, different players who impact the game way way diff, BRON being way way higher, just look at them from day 1 until now

Slug3
03-27-2014, 02:25 PM
Same lebron he's always been. Hes always been afraid of big shots vs good teams.

This is actually a positive step for you. You are now only saying against good teams when it use to be he was always afraid.

bootypants
03-27-2014, 02:29 PM
amen. it's a sad time when making the right basketball play instead of forcing it is now seen as a weakness.

**** you michael. **** you iverson. **** you kobe.


You just proved our point when we ask everyone to stop comparing LBJ to MJ. They are two different players with two different ways of dominating basketball. Anyone comparing MJ to LBJ is blind. Do you compare MJ to Magic or Oscar? No. Because they aren't similiar. Neither are LBJ and MJ. End the discussions with MJ. Let lebron be lebron.

3RDASYSTEM
03-27-2014, 02:30 PM
Oh so when it becomes disgustingly apparent that Kobe is not clutch, you Kobephiles just go ahead and change the defintion of clutch. Now it means having Shaq carry you to a 3peat when you're in your early 20s! How clutch!

and they also forget how clutch he was in Utah series as a youngster, he is the only player in history to be a backup player to a non top 20 player of all time then start and now he is top 10 and super clutch

what a failure by his legion of fans to not notice that from day 1

he was backing up E JONES, wow

but I guess the lakers can hold on to the fact that they actually went to first finals when he started full time 00' season after his backup mission, congrats

the only player in history of any sports to go from backup player to top 10, and BRADY from nfl

BOSTON/LA markets are sure the best in all of sports, fact

Slug3
03-27-2014, 02:31 PM
Please explain to me why every single player on the Heat has taken a statistical blow since playing with Lebron?

Rings. Championship rings.

beliges
03-27-2014, 02:32 PM
What about the misses? Do we just discount those?

Dude of course people are gonna miss huge clutch shots. Kobe and Jordan missed more "clutch" shots than anyone in the history of the game. But they also made more "clutch" shots than anyone in the history of the game, and that style of "HERO BALL" as you like to call it worked out pretty damn well for each of them as each one became the most winningest and dominant players of their era/generation. That type of game simply is not for everyone. I do not get what the big deal is here. Lebron is simply not the clutch player of some of the greats that came before him. That is perfectly fine. Nothing wrong with that. No argument will change the fact that Kobe is simply much more clutch than Lebron. It may me hard for people to hear that, but that is the case. Lebron is not one of the top players I want with the ball in his hands if my team absolutely needs ONE bucket. He is simply not that player. And again, theres nothing wrong with that because he has clearly been the best player in the world the last few years without that ability.

jerellh528
03-27-2014, 02:32 PM
and they also forget how clutch he was in Utah series as a youngster, he is the only player in history to be a backup player to a non top 20 player of all time then start and now he is top 10 and super clutch

what a failure by his legion of fans to not notice that from day 1

he was backing up E JONES, wow

but I guess the lakers can hold on to the fact that they actually went to first finals when he started full time 00' season after his backup mission, congrats

the only player in history of any sports to go from backup player to top 10, and BRADY from nfl

BOSTON/LA markets are sure the best in all of sports, fact

Again with this backup crap. I don't understand what you get out of saying this? Are you trying to prove how hard of a worker and dedicated to his craft that Kobe is? Or are you trying to discredit him? Because this is one of the worst compiled arrangements of thoughts and statements I've ever seen on this site.

beyourself
03-27-2014, 02:40 PM
Dude of course people are gonna miss huge clutch shots. Kobe and Jordan missed more "clutch" shots than anyone in the history of the game. But they also made more "clutch" shots than anyone in the history of the game, and that style of "HERO BALL" as you like to call it worked out pretty damn well for each of them as each one became the most winningest and dominant players of their era/generation. That type of game simply is not for everyone. I do not get what the big deal is here. Lebron is simply not the clutch player of some of the greats that came before him. That is perfectly fine. Nothing wrong with that. No argument will change the fact that Kobe is simply much more clutch than Lebron. It may me hard for people to hear that, but that is the case. Lebron is not one of the top players I want with the ball in his hands if my team absolutely needs ONE bucket. He is simply not that player. And again, theres nothing wrong with that because he has clearly been the best player in the world the last few years without that ability.

Don't throw Kobe in the same league as Jordan to prove a point. Same playing styles. Same type of player.

One is the real thing and the other is diet.

MassoDio
03-27-2014, 02:45 PM
First off, let me get this out of the way: I am not a LeBron fan, or a Kobe fan for that matter. I can't stand either of them.

Let's get the definition of "Clutch" in reference to the way it is being used in terms of a basketball player.

clutch [kluhch]

adjective
16.
done or accomplished in a critical situation: a clutch shot that won the basketball game.
17.
dependable in crucial situations: a clutch player.

Notice there are two definitions there. One is referencing an action, one is referencing a trait placed on a person. The one referencing an act relates to the shot taken, if it is made. The other, referencing the trait that can be places on a person says this; yes, read it again: dependable in crucial situations

LeBron certainly falls under that definition without question. All of the people in here trying to discredit him for not taking the last shot in these situations simply have their own, biased, unreasonable definition of the meaning of the word.

The CORRECT play is always the one that yields the more high percentage shot. What does that mean? It does not only mean the highest percentage on average for any player, it also means finding a player, in a position in which, the shot is a high percentage for THAT player. LeBron, in most situations, is very good at that. Being clutch is not limited to being the one taking the shot, and in fact, the more accurate explanation of the definition is that clutch means making the "dependable" decision. There is really only one thing that you have always been able to depend on Kobe for in the closing seconds of a game, and that was that he was going to take the shot. There is value in that. It is valuable to have a player with that type of mentality. But there is a HUGE disadvantage in that as well, which is why his percentages, and the Lakers offensive numbers in those situations, is so poor. It is so much easier to game plan for that. This is not to say that Kobe isn't great, he is, but it in no way makes him more clutch than LeBron. It just means that he is more likely to accomplish the first definition I posted, than be the latter of the two definitions.

We have all heard the criticisms of LeBron in the waning moments of games. Here is a nice description.


Give [him] the ball, a few fleet teammates, a little adrenaline, and he's off, running. He "just wants to have fun." That's all well and good, and for most of the NBA season it's a productive attitude, one that pleases fans. He has his fun and seems to run the break and run up his statistical totals almost effortlessly. He has bushels of "triple doubles"-games in which he reaches double figures in points, rebounds and assists.

Presumably, the bigger the game, the bigger the production. But you can't have fun in the clutch; [you] can't crack a smile in the clutch. The clutch is a crucible.

Late in games during the championship series... announcing [teams] would make the obligatory comments about how players like [him] love such moments. Yet, time and time again, we saw evidence of [his] distaste for them.

http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2011/10/19/2499936/lebron-james-magic-johnson-miami-heat



But hold on a second, that quote isn't about LeBron. That was from an article written in 1984 about Magic. (Which happens to be the player that LeBron is more accurately compared to.)

I am pretty sure, now, when looking at this in hindsight, most people agree that what made Magic clutch in his career, was that he always made the CORRECT play.

Some of you may PREFER the hero ball, guy who takes that final shot every time, but that doesn't mean your view of a clutch player is the correct one.

I watched Michael Jordan's whole career. I LOVED his last second heroics. But he didn't become the G.O.A.T level player that he is now recognized as until he learned to pass the ball in those situations, as well as take the shot. He had to learn which play was the CORRECT play. LeBron may lean towards the pass in those situations, but the clutchness for him, is being able to find the RIGHT pass, to the RIGHT guy, in the RIGHT place, to have the BEST shot at winning. Sometimes, that is himself, and he has shown that is capable of making those shots as well. But more often than not, since he is the best player on the planet, that is not going to be him, because he is going to be the focus of the defense and likely being double and triple teamed. The other team will simply be doing anything it can to keep him from getting a good shot. Sometimes, even if he is under duress, the most dependable play is him taking the shot. What makes LeBron clutch, is that he makes the correct determination as to which of those scenarios needs to happen in a split second.

I am fine with people not liking LeBron. I don't like him. But just stop with the nonsense in trying to discredit him. If you don't have a higher level of understanding of the game than starry-eyed hero worship, then just stop.

beliges
03-27-2014, 02:49 PM
Don't throw Kobe in the same league as Jordan to prove a point. Same playing styles. Same type of player.

One is the real thing and the other is diet.

LOL. I was speaking in terms of clutchness. You got two of the most clutch perimeter players to play the game. Do not to get all self conscious. This is not a Kobe v. MJ argument.

slashsnake
03-27-2014, 03:16 PM
It all comes down to how you view them. Lebron took and made more shots last year with the game on the line than anyone. So if we are talking regular season after last night. Last year Lebron hit 7 game winners last year which is over double Kobe. Throw in by seasons end also not only did nobody have more game winning shots then, but no one had more assists (And LBJ had no turnovers either then).

Lebron's per 36 numbers were quite telling. 25 points per 36 minutes last year. That jumped to 30 per 36 when only looking at the last 5 minutes of the game. And 70 points per 36 minutes when looking at the last 30 seconds of one posession games (not to mention both his rebounding and assists jumping by 50% or so there).

Basically what that is saying, is that if all lebron did was play in those final clutch situations he'd be averaging about 70 a game and a triple double to boot. That dropped a bit last playoffs, but we were looking at 55 a game and a triple double. In fact, his per 36 is 27-12-10 in the final 5 minutes of games in last years playoffs.

He isn't Rondo, a clutch passer. He isn't Kobe, a clutch scorer. He isn't Garnett, a clutch rebounder. He's all of them. In fact of the guys who finished in the top 5 last season in the last 5 minutes of close games, guess who was top 5 in scoring, top 5 in rebounding AND top 5 in assists. He was the only one to make more than one list and he made all three (5th in clutch scoring, 2nd in clutch rebounding, 2nd in clutch assists).

ILLUSIONIST^248
03-27-2014, 03:42 PM
Same lebron he's always been. Hes always been afraid of big shots vs good teams.

This is actually a positive step for you. You are now only saying against good teams when it use to be he was always afraid.

Thanks for noticing, he seems to take chances vs weaker competition. He knows everyone is watching in a high profile game.

Fnom11
03-27-2014, 03:44 PM
First off, let me get this out of the way: I am not a LeBron fan, or a Kobe fan for that matter. I can't stand either of them.

Let's get the definition of "Clutch" in reference to the way it is being used in terms of a basketball player.

clutch [kluhch]

adjective
16.
done or accomplished in a critical situation: a clutch shot that won the basketball game.
17.
dependable in crucial situations: a clutch player.

Notice there are two definitions there. One is referencing an action, one is referencing a trait placed on a person. The one referencing an act relates to the shot taken, if it is made. The other, referencing the trait that can be places on a person says this; yes, read it again: dependable in crucial situations

LeBron certainly falls under that definition without question. All of the people in here trying to discredit him for not taking the last shot in these situations simply have their own, biased, unreasonable definition of the meaning of the word.

The CORRECT play is always the one that yields the more high percentage shot. What does that mean? It does not only mean the highest percentage on average for any player, it also means finding a player, in a position in which, the shot is a high percentage for THAT player. LeBron, in most situations, is very good at that. Being clutch is not limited to being the one taking the shot, and in fact, the more accurate explanation of the definition is that clutch means making the "dependable" decision. There is really only one thing that you have always been able to depend on Kobe for in the closing seconds of a game, and that was that he was going to take the shot. There is value in that. It is valuable to have a player with that type of mentality. But there is a HUGE disadvantage in that as well, which is why his percentages, and the Lakers offensive numbers in those situations, is so poor. It is so much easier to game plan for that. This is not to say that Kobe isn't great, he is, but it in no way makes him more clutch than LeBron. It just means that he is more likely to accomplish the first definition I posted, than be the latter of the two definitions.

We have all heard the criticisms of LeBron in the waning moments of games. Here is a nice description.



But hold on a second, that quote isn't about LeBron. That was from an article written in 1984 about Magic. (Which happens to be the player that LeBron is more accurately compared to.)

I am pretty sure, now, when looking at this in hindsight, most people agree that what made Magic clutch in his career, was that he always made the CORRECT play.

Some of you may PREFER the hero ball, guy who takes that final shot every time, but that doesn't mean your view of a clutch player is the correct one.

I watched Michael Jordan's whole career. I LOVED his last second heroics. But he didn't become the G.O.A.T level player that he is now recognized as until he learned to pass the ball in those situations, as well as take the shot. He had to learn which play was the CORRECT play. LeBron may lean towards the pass in those situations, but the clutchness for him, is being able to find the RIGHT pass, to the RIGHT guy, in the RIGHT place, to have the BEST shot at winning. Sometimes, that is himself, and he has shown that is capable of making those shots as well. But more often than not, since he is the best player on the planet, that is not going to be him, because he is going to be the focus of the defense and likely being double and triple teamed. The other team will simply be doing anything it can to keep him from getting a good shot. Sometimes, even if he is under duress, the most dependable play is him taking the shot. What makes LeBron clutch, is that he makes the correct determination as to which of those scenarios needs to happen in a split second.

I am fine with people not liking LeBron. I don't like him. But just stop with the nonsense in trying to discredit him. If you don't have a higher level of understanding of the game than starry-eyed hero worship, then just stop.
Great post, man

Chronz
03-27-2014, 03:47 PM
Dude of course people are gonna miss huge clutch shots. Kobe and Jordan missed more "clutch" shots than anyone in the history of the game. But they also made more "clutch" shots than anyone in the history of the game, and that style of "HERO BALL" as you like to call it worked out pretty damn well for each of them as each one became the most winningest and dominant players of their era/generation. That type of game simply is not for everyone. I do not get what the big deal is here. Lebron is simply not the clutch player of some of the greats that came before him. That is perfectly fine. Nothing wrong with that. No argument will change the fact that Kobe is simply much more clutch than Lebron. It may me hard for people to hear that, but that is the case. Lebron is not one of the top players I want with the ball in his hands if my team absolutely needs ONE bucket. He is simply not that player. And again, theres nothing wrong with that because he has clearly been the best player in the world the last few years without that ability.
Yes but do you know what differentiates Kobe from MJ, its not just that 1 title, its that when those shots were called upon, MJ hit them at a HIGHER RATE, and he also found the open man at a HIGHER RATE, he also defended better, rebounded better ..etc. All this counts during clutch moments.

Its not a big deal, just wondering why you only focus on the makes? Is your argument for every aspect of the game simply, RINGZ!? LOL sorry if Im not so blinded by team success that it absolutely paralyzes me from recognizing what went into those wins.



It all comes down to how you view them. Lebron took and made more shots last year with the game on the line than anyone. So if we are talking regular season after last night. Last year Lebron hit 7 game winners last year which is over double Kobe. Throw in by seasons end also not only did nobody have more game winning shots then, but no one had more assists (And LBJ had no turnovers either then).

Lebron's per 36 numbers were quite telling. 25 points per 36 minutes last year. That jumped to 30 per 36 when only looking at the last 5 minutes of the game. And 70 points per 36 minutes when looking at the last 30 seconds of one posession games (not to mention both his rebounding and assists jumping by 50% or so there).

Basically what that is saying, is that if all lebron did was play in those final clutch situations he'd be averaging about 70 a game and a triple double to boot. That dropped a bit last playoffs, but we were looking at 55 a game and a triple double. In fact, his per 36 is 27-12-10 in the final 5 minutes of games in last years playoffs.

He isn't Rondo, a clutch passer. He isn't Kobe, a clutch scorer. He isn't Garnett, a clutch rebounder. He's all of them. In fact of the guys who finished in the top 5 last season in the last 5 minutes of close games, guess who was top 5 in scoring, top 5 in rebounding AND top 5 in assists. He was the only one to make more than one list and he made all three (5th in clutch scoring, 2nd in clutch rebounding, 2nd in clutch assists).
Well done

ILLUSIONIST^248
03-27-2014, 03:52 PM
Please explain to me why every single player on the Heat has taken a statistical blow since playing with Lebron?

Rings. Championship rings.

So my point still stands. Lebron is only concerned about his stats. Basically," get out of my way, if I don't get to the rim be ready for a bailout pass for a three to pad my stats. Also don't go for my rebounds when I'm around".

JeremiahWing
03-27-2014, 03:52 PM
Because he's not good with game on the line. You can tell by his body language when he makes a closing shot: He looks surprised.

Some guys have it, some don't.

Chronz
03-27-2014, 03:54 PM
Clutchness is so finicky that you have to absolutely define what it is you are pointing to when discussing clutch play, especially in any sort of ranking/evaluation. I laugh at the idea that anyone should take anyone elses word on the matter simply with blind glances at wins and losses.

Jerry West was KNOWN as Mr. CLUTCH, and he lost like what, 9 times in the Finals. Most haters today would prolly call him a choker, or at the very least, Mr.Big Shot instead. A common trait kobe fans share is that they think championships make their pet players the best at whatever aspect they deem important. I've seen some praise Kobe as a historically great passer because of the significance of those passes. It astounds me

Delrayhc
03-27-2014, 03:54 PM
Same lebron he's always been. Hes always been afraid of big shots vs good teams.

This is actually a positive step for you. You are now only saying against good teams when it use to be he was always afraid.

Thanks for noticing, he seems to take chances vs weaker competition. He knows everyone is watching in a high profile game.

Why don't you read the last post of page 13 by the Bulls fan. That is a fair, honest and unbiased post. Maybe you can learn something. I doubt it but just maybe.

Delrayhc
03-27-2014, 03:58 PM
Lebron apologists :clap::clap:

Be a man LeBron and take the ball against your single defender to try and win the game if you want that respect as a closer. Maybe he doesn't want it, who knows, but it seems to be more than a coincidence that Lebron starts to defer and play more timid when the greatness of the moment rises.


He made the right play internet thug.

Delrayhc
03-27-2014, 04:05 PM
Please explain to me why every single player on the Heat has taken a statistical blow since playing with Lebron?

Rings. Championship rings.

So my point still stands. Lebron is only concerned about his stats. Basically," get out of my way, if I don't get to the rim be ready for a bailout pass for a three to pad my stats. Also don't go for my rebounds when I'm around".

Your an idiot. Really your an idiot.

tr3ymill3r
03-27-2014, 04:06 PM
Are the other players on his team not NBA caliber of talent? I thought Chris Bosh was apart of this big 3. Wouldn't Bosh have taken the final shot in Toronto? LeBron was guarded and opted to give Bosh a wide open shot opportunity, right after he just made a huge 3 pointer. Yes, this is clearly LeBron's fault for giving a professional a wide open shot that he whiffed on.

Jamiecballer
03-27-2014, 04:06 PM
You just proved our point when we ask everyone to stop comparing LBJ to MJ. They are two different players with two different ways of dominating basketball. Anyone comparing MJ to LBJ is blind. Do you compare MJ to Magic or Oscar? No. Because they aren't similiar. Neither are LBJ and MJ. End the discussions with MJ. Let lebron be lebron.

what the hell does this have to do with anything that i said :shrug:

JeremiahWing
03-27-2014, 04:08 PM
When the greatness of the moment rises, LeBron shrinks. It's not a total knock on him; he will probably end up being a top-five all-time player, but this is an extremely fair knock on him in comparison to other legends.

flea
03-27-2014, 04:09 PM
Predictable bait thread brought more Kobephiles from the woodwork than I had anticipated. Good to out these people.

jerellh528
03-27-2014, 04:10 PM
Predictable bait thread brought more Kobephiles from the woodwork than I had anticipated. Good to out these people.

So anyone that doesn't think james is the greatest thing since sliced bread is a kobephile?

flea
03-27-2014, 04:15 PM
So anyone that doesn't think james is the greatest thing since sliced bread is a kobephile?

Nah, just the ones that think a team's role players' scoring averages shouldn't go down when a top 1 player comes to town.

ewing
03-27-2014, 04:22 PM
i didn't realize drawing a triple and spoon feeding your teammate an open look was deferring. I though it was making a play. Thanks again PSD

ILLUSIONIST^248
03-27-2014, 04:25 PM
So anyone that doesn't think james is the greatest thing since sliced bread is a kobephile?

Nah, just the ones that think a team's role players' scoring averages shouldn't go down when a top 1 player comes to town.

:laugh2: leave it to a lebronite to claim a superstar and an all star "role players" :laugh2:

Crackadalic
03-27-2014, 04:25 PM
Trollsportsdaily

Only place where a low% shot is consider the best basketball play

Jamiecballer
03-27-2014, 04:26 PM
So anyone that doesn't think james is the greatest thing since sliced bread is a kobephile?
i don't think so. poor judgement maybe but that's not the exclusive domain of Kobes fans.

Chronz
03-27-2014, 04:27 PM
So anyone that doesn't think james is the greatest thing since sliced bread is a kobephile?
Just curious, whos giving you that vibe? Cant we all just admit clutchness is open to interpretation and players offer differing strengths for those moments. They are different clutch players. Whos better, whos best is definitely your opinion to give but which Bron support has made you think they are so extreme?

ILLUSIONIST^248
03-27-2014, 04:33 PM
So anyone that doesn't think james is the greatest thing since sliced bread is a kobephile?
Just curious, whos giving you that vibe? Cant we all just admit clutchness is open to interpretation and players offer differing strengths for those moments. They are different clutch players. Whos better, whos best is definitely your opinion to give but which Bron support has made you think they are so extreme?

Chronz lets not play dumb, Lebron fans have claimed some pretty extreme stuff these past few years. Your posts have been pretty good in this thread tho.

JeremiahWing
03-27-2014, 05:14 PM
Are people seriously suggesting that I, a Knicks fan who hates both Kobe and LeBron (not to mention Jordan), am a hater because I suggest LeBron shies away at critical moments?

Talk about being touchy.

jerellh528
03-27-2014, 05:29 PM
Just curious, whos giving you that vibe? Cant we all just admit clutchness is open to interpretation and players offer differing strengths for those moments. They are different clutch players. Whos better, whos best is definitely your opinion to give but which Bron support has made you think they are so extreme?

No one in particular but just going through this entire thread it seems as if anyone who would have liked to see bron take the shot for basketball entertainment purposes are being clumped in as a kobephile. It just gives a bad name overall to any lakers fan or Kobe fan. I don't have a strong opinion either way. The basketball fan in me would've like to see him take a game winner to beat the odds, but if I were a heat supporter hoping to gain ground on the number 1 seed in the east then I would've opted for the best percentage "basketball play". There's two differing opinions on how that moment should've been played but I just don't like how anyone disagreeing with what lbj did should be called an automatic kobephile. Also while Jordan and Kobe both normally have the ball in their hands and shoot more often than not in the waning moments, it's not like it's exclusive to them. Dirk, kd, ai, tmac, pierce etc would all participate in this "hero ball" it's not unheard of that you want your best player taking the shot more times than not in the final moments. I don't disagree with what Lebron did, but I can see how some fans would like to see him take those breathtaking, tough "fan" shots. Lebron has a fg% higher than most in the clutch I think it's like 42% or something but I wouldn't say it's because he rises to the occasion, rather he defers unless he has an easy look. Can't blame him but sometimes as fans we want spectacle.

flea
03-27-2014, 05:37 PM
There's a big difference between Lebron chucking a 3 in front of a triple team while Bosh stands wide open and trying to get Dirk a look one on one, or perhaps even two. One is a ridiculously bad way to try to win a game, the other is a solid option because you have a 7 foot historically great shooter taking the shot.

Hawkeye15
03-27-2014, 06:04 PM
It all comes down to how you view them. Lebron took and made more shots last year with the game on the line than anyone. So if we are talking regular season after last night. Last year Lebron hit 7 game winners last year which is over double Kobe. Throw in by seasons end also not only did nobody have more game winning shots then, but no one had more assists (And LBJ had no turnovers either then).

Lebron's per 36 numbers were quite telling. 25 points per 36 minutes last year. That jumped to 30 per 36 when only looking at the last 5 minutes of the game. And 70 points per 36 minutes when looking at the last 30 seconds of one posession games (not to mention both his rebounding and assists jumping by 50% or so there).

Basically what that is saying, is that if all lebron did was play in those final clutch situations he'd be averaging about 70 a game and a triple double to boot. That dropped a bit last playoffs, but we were looking at 55 a game and a triple double. In fact, his per 36 is 27-12-10 in the final 5 minutes of games in last years playoffs.

He isn't Rondo, a clutch passer. He isn't Kobe, a clutch scorer. He isn't Garnett, a clutch rebounder. He's all of them. In fact of the guys who finished in the top 5 last season in the last 5 minutes of close games, guess who was top 5 in scoring, top 5 in rebounding AND top 5 in assists. He was the only one to make more than one list and he made all three (5th in clutch scoring, 2nd in clutch rebounding, 2nd in clutch assists).


love this post.

ThuglifeJ
03-27-2014, 06:10 PM
Force up a shot instead of hitting the open guy?

I guess you've missed moments like game 6 against Boston facing elimination a few years ago.

It doesn't HAVE to mean force up a shot. So you're saying Lebron cant create space/his own shot? At least attempt to get to the rim or a shot (preferably with an inbound play where he catches it closer than he was) and if it's not there while Bosh is making his part of the play THEN you pass it to him if he's open. Lebron didn't even attempt to do anything but get it to Bosh. He had no intentions on trying to win the game...You're best bet is to put pressure on the defense with the 'best player' in the game, not a screen for Bosh to get open that's way too risky.
I'm sorry but this excuse ******** is just that, ********. So sick of it.

ThuglifeJ
03-27-2014, 06:13 PM
There's a big difference between Lebron chucking a 3 in front of a triple team while Bosh stands wide open and trying to get Dirk a look one on one, or perhaps even two. One is a ridiculously bad way to try to win a game, the other is a solid option because you have a 7 foot historically great shooter taking the shot.

TRIPLE TEAM? What Triple team he was guarded by George and George ONLY.

Hawkeye15
03-27-2014, 06:15 PM
I posted it earlier in the thread, but there is a reason why George Karl or Greg Popovich teams have more success in last second inbound plays, or last second plays period.

They run a PLAY, they don't just isolate a player. Why do you think Melo's FG% in possessions under 24 seconds to go, within a possession, crapped on everyone elses while he was in Denver? Its because they ran a play, and if he ended up getting the shot, it was usually in balance and a good shot, not a forced shot with multiple defenders.

Hero ball has never proven to be the best way to go, unless you have Michael Jordan on your team.

Nick O
03-27-2014, 06:18 PM
this is still going? why do people look so deep into this? Bosh is clutch. he had a good shot. had one of the best defensive players in the league who happens to be an athletic 7 foot 2 center not managed to contest that shot it probably would have went in. Bosh is a great jump shooter. always has been. great contest by hibbert. bosh missed. the end. dont have to look much deeper. there was only 2 seconds left

naps
03-27-2014, 06:21 PM
Tonight, Lebron made the wrong decision... His team lost.

So with 2 sec left LeBron was doubled and passed it to the open guy who just made a clutch 3 in the previous minute is the wrong play? He should have forced it over 2 man guarding him like your man-crush Kobe would and that would, in your opinion, be the right basketball play?

naps
03-27-2014, 06:22 PM
Hey, amos1er, would you make this thread describing how awesomely smart LeBron is if Bosh made that shot?

xXx J0SE 21 xXx
03-27-2014, 06:23 PM
There's a big difference between Lebron chucking a 3 in front of a triple team while Bosh stands wide open and trying to get Dirk a look one on one, or perhaps even two. One is a ridiculously bad way to try to win a game, the other is a solid option because you have a 7 foot historically great shooter taking the shot.

TRIPLE TEAM? What Triple team he was guarded by George and George ONLY.

Yes it was only george 6'10 great defender , lebron was way behind the threepoint line with his back to the rim and bosh leaked out for an open shot.

Oh yeah and TWO seconds left , not 5 or 7 seconds

South Side Sox
03-27-2014, 06:33 PM
this is still going? why do people look so deep into this? Bosh is clutch. he had a good shot. had one of the best defensive players in the league who happens to be an athletic 7 foot 2 center not managed to contest that shot it probably would have went in. Bosh is a great jump shooter. always has been. great contest by hibbert. bosh missed. the end. dont have to look much deeper. there was only 2 seconds left

I agree.

Back reading gives enough testimony that any team main guy can't play hero time every single situation.

beliges
03-27-2014, 06:36 PM
This has been a much too long discussion. Lebron is a very smart player, and along with Durant,one of the two best players in the world. His strength is not his clutch play. His strength is not his vast offensive arsenal or ability to knock down tough jumpers. His strength is not to get you a bucket if your team's life depended on it. What he did yesterday, in passing to Bosh is what his strength is. He will make the correct play. In that situation, Lebron passing it out to another shooter was the correct play. There are other players like Durant, where the correct play in that situation would have been to take the shot, because that is their strength. For Lebron, that is not his strength. Yes, Lebron has weaknesses in his game. Its not the end of the world. Does not change the fact he won two titles and does not change the fact he is one of the greatest players in the league right now.

South Side Sox
03-27-2014, 06:36 PM
^ This

ILLUSIONIST^248
03-27-2014, 06:38 PM
Tonight, Lebron made the wrong decision... His team lost.

So with 2 sec left LeBron was doubled and passed it to the open guy who just made a clutch 3 in the previous minute is the wrong play? He should have forced it over 2 man guarding him like your man-crush Kobe would and that would, in your opinion, be the right basketball play?

What kind of idiot calls for the ball 5 feet behind the arc to pass it and waste time? That play made 0 sense. Lebron made a couple mistakes on that possession. He should have never touched the ball if he was going to pass it,there was only 2 damn seconds left.

ILLUSIONIST^248
03-27-2014, 06:41 PM
This has been a much too long discussion. Lebron is a very smart player, and along with Durant,one of the two best players in the world. His strength is not his clutch play. His strength is not his vast offensive arsenal or ability to knock down tough jumpers. His strength is not to get you a bucket if your team's life depended on it. What he did yesterday, in passing to Bosh is what his strength is. He will make the correct play. In that situation, Lebron passing it out to another shooter was the correct play. There are other players like Durant, where the correct play in that situation would have been to take the shot, because that is their strength. For Lebron, that is not his strength. Yes, Lebron has weaknesses in his game. Its not the end of the world. Does not change the fact he won two titles and does not change the fact he is one of the greatest players in the league right now.

Well said.

5ass
03-27-2014, 06:42 PM
What kind of idiot calls for the ball 5 feet behind the arc to pass it and waste time? That play made 0 sense. Lebron made a couple mistakes on that possession. He should have never touched the ball if he was going to pass it,there was only 2 damn seconds left.

the idiot that won the last 2 finals MVPs.

ILLUSIONIST^248
03-27-2014, 06:46 PM
What kind of idiot calls for the ball 5 feet behind the arc to pass it and waste time? That play made 0 sense. Lebron made a couple mistakes on that possession. He should have never touched the ball if he was going to pass it,there was only 2 damn seconds left.

the idiot that won the last 2 finals MVPs.

1 1/2 the other half is Ray Allen's for saving his legacy.

smith&wesson
03-27-2014, 06:56 PM
you can compare him to kobe, or mj if you like. but the truth is that lebron is alot closer to being like magic. he is a phenominal passer.

The apposing team will double and triple lebron for the last shot, why not get the ball to the open shooter when you have the vision and passing ability that lebron has ? but last night, on that specific play 2 seconds was simply not enough time for that play. thats on spoelstra though, not lebron.

smith&wesson
03-27-2014, 07:07 PM
This has been a much too long discussion. Lebron is a very smart player, and along with Durant,one of the two best players in the world. His strength is not his clutch play. His strength is not his vast offensive arsenal or ability to knock down tough jumpers. His strength is not to get you a bucket if your team's life depended on it. What he did yesterday, in passing to Bosh is what his strength is. He will make the correct play. In that situation, Lebron passing it out to another shooter was the correct play. There are other players like Durant, where the correct play in that situation would have been to take the shot, because that is their strength. For Lebron, that is not his strength. Yes, Lebron has weaknesses in his game. Its not the end of the world. Does not change the fact he won two titles and does not change the fact he is one of the greatest players in the league right now.

well said, agree with every thing your saying. only thing i disagree with is that he made the right play last night at the end of that game.

Fact is, spoelstra drew up that play and so really this is on him. he did have the right idea with the ball being inbounded to lebron to attract a double team while lebron found the open shooter. the problem with that specific play though was that there was not enough time for it.

with 2 seconds left you dont have time to attract a double team, kick out to an open man and hope that he still has time to get a good shot off. hense why bosh had to quickly throw it up ...

with 2 seconds left, If lebron isnt shooting then you use him as a diversion and in bound the ball directly to the shooter.

If there was maybe 4-5 seconds left then I agree that play they drew up would have been a good play.. but not with 2 seconds left.

Supreme LA
03-27-2014, 07:34 PM
Noone is trying to discredit Kobe's rings. Kobe is great but dont act like he had a bunch bums on his team, when he did have scrubs on his team (smush and kwame) how were the lakers doing ?

You have to get to the Finals dont you to win right? 8.3 rebounds15.0 ppg 1.3 blcks in 65 games… and yes he was hurt in the finals but def helped get the lakers there.
Pau averaged a double double in the 09-10 finals- 18.6 ppg 11.6 rbds 3.7assists 2.6blocks


Come on now lets be real here smh

You're so dense. You basically repeated everything I said but out a spin on it. You tried to discredit Kobe's rings by saying he had Shaq and I'm saying Kobe was just as big a part getting out of the West for Shaq to be showcased in the finals.

You ask how were the Lakers doing with scrubs like Kwame and Smush? Is that supposed to be a knock on Kobe? Because he led them and pushed the 2 seed Suns to a game 7 and potentially had a chance to make it to the WCF with that team with only the Clippers standing in their way in the next round. So Kobe did great and nice try.

You have to get to the Finals and that was my point. You're the one bringing up Bynum's name like he did something during the 09 run. And yes Pau played great in the Finals and so? Kobe didn't do anything? I swear your points mean absolutely nothing and I don't even understand what you're trying to get across. You tried to discredit Kobe and I basically proved you wrong.

Have a coke, a smile, and just go away now. There's no point in me debating anything with a person like you.

South Side Sox
03-27-2014, 07:48 PM
Popcorn!

smith&wesson
03-27-2014, 07:55 PM
You're so dense. You basically repeated everything I said but out a spin on it. You tried to discredit Kobe's rings by saying he had Shaq and I'm saying Kobe was just as big a part getting out of the West for Shaq to be showcased in the finals.

You ask how were the Lakers doing with scrubs like Kwame and Smush? Is that supposed to be a knock on Kobe? Because he led them and pushed the 2 seed Suns to a game 7 and potentially had a chance to make it to the WCF with that team with only the Clippers standing in their way in the next round. So Kobe did great and nice try.

You have to get to the Finals and that was my point. You're the one bringing up Bynum's name like he did something during the 09 run. And yes Pau played great in the Finals and so? Kobe didn't do anything? I swear your points mean absolutely nothing and I don't even understand what you're trying to get across. You tried to discredit Kobe and I basically proved you wrong.

Have a coke, a smile, and just go away now. There's no point in me debating anything with a person like you.

very well said. . .

If people want to discredit kobes rings because he had shaq then fine. i can play that game too

Magic had kareem and james worthy

Bird had -mchale and parish

Duncan had robinson, then parker and gino

Lebron has wade and bosh

Mj had pippen and rodman

etc. etc. etc.

oh you say kobe was 2nd fidell ?? fine

how bout when he won with gasol ?

i rest my case.

Hawkeye15
03-27-2014, 08:14 PM
very well said. . .

If people want to discredit kobes rings because he had shaq then fine. i can play that game too

Magic had kareem and james worthy

Bird had -mchale and parish

Duncan had robinson, then parker and gino

Lebron has wade and bosh

Mj had pippen and rodman

etc. etc. etc.

oh you say kobe was 2nd fidell ?? fine

how bout when he won with gasol ?

i rest my case.

huh?

Supreme LA
03-27-2014, 08:17 PM
very well said. . .

If people want to discredit kobes rings because he had shaq then fine. i can play that game too

Magic had kareem and james worthy

Bird had -mchale and parish

Duncan had robinson, then parker and gino

Lebron has wade and bosh

Mj had pippen and rodman

etc. etc. etc.

oh you say kobe was 2nd fidell ?? fine

how bout when he won with gasol ?

i rest my case.

Exactly! I don't understand what that guy was trying to say. Nobody ever claimed that Kobe did anything by himself and I'll be the first to say that no player does it on their own. It's like people are just looking for anything to debate because of their hatred for a player without even reading other peoples post's. There is so much literal ignorance on this site and it's best to just avoid debating with those kinds of people because they don't comprehend anything.

Supreme LA
03-27-2014, 08:18 PM
huh?

I don't understand why you don't understand that. He's basically saying Kobe wasn't second fiddle with Gasol. Do you disagree?

Hawkeye15
03-27-2014, 08:18 PM
Exactly! I don't understand what that guy was trying to say. Nobody ever claimed that Kobe did anything by himself and I'll be the first to say that no player does it on their own. It's like people are just looking for anything to debate because of their hatred for a player without even reading other peoples post's. There is so much literal ignorance on this site and it's best to just avoid debating with those kinds of people because they don't comprehend anything.

yeah I mean, anyone who discredits Kobe's rings might as well discredit Magic, Bird, Shaq, Jordan, Duncan, LeBron, or any other superstar ever.

Basketball is a team sport. Which is why arguing individuals over team success is just so stupid.

Supreme LA
03-27-2014, 08:22 PM
yeah I mean, anyone who discredits Kobe's rings might as well discredit Magic, Bird, Shaq, Jordan, Duncan, LeBron, or any other superstar ever.

Basketball is a team sport. Which is why arguing individuals over team success is just so stupid.

Thank you!

Jamiecballer
03-27-2014, 08:23 PM
Thank you!

that makes your boy a clear second to James, you get that right?

Hawkeye15
03-27-2014, 08:24 PM
I don't understand why you don't understand that. He's basically saying Kobe wasn't second fiddle with Gasol. Do you disagree?

I don't disagree that Kobe was option #1 on that team, but stats point to Gasol being just as responsible as Kobe, as does his front lineup of Gasol-Bynum-Odom, which no team could really deal with.

There was a reason they struggled with Boston in 2008 when Bynum was having his injury issues.

Kobe was the lead dog, but by no means in either back to back title run did he really separate himself from Gasol impact wise when you look at the numbers.

In 08-09', Gasol was actually the best player on the Lakers in the regular season by a smidge, Kobe by a smidge in the playoffs. In 09-10', Gasol was statistically better during both the regular season and playoffs.

Now, if we put all the stats in context, I would say they are both equally responsible for those titles. But acting like Kobe was head and shoulders the best player on the Lakers during those 2 title runs is flat out false. Gasol was amazing those 2 years. And the Lakers frontcourt had more to do with them winning chips than Kobe did man.

Supreme LA
03-27-2014, 08:30 PM
that makes your boy a clear second to James, you get that right?

In what way? Please elaborate.

I'm not going to debate Lebron and Kobe until Lebron's career is over. Lebron will go down as the better player when all is said and done. I have no problem admitting that. It doesn't take anything away from what Kobe had accomplished and doesn't make Kobe any less of a player in my eyes.

I think you mistake me for a fan who sees Kobe as a god. I don't. I love Kobe for everything he has done without ever being blessed with the physical gifts of Lebron and MJ. He is the type of player that represents what hard work and skill can accomplish.

If you're simply trying to bait me into debating Lebron vs. Kobe you won't. I don't have time listen to haters spew hatred for players over silly things.

Supreme LA
03-27-2014, 08:35 PM
I don't disagree that Kobe was option #1 on that team, but stats point to Gasol being just as responsible as Kobe, as does his front lineup of Gasol-Bynum-Odom, which no team could really deal with.

There was a reason they struggled with Boston in 2008 when Bynum was having his injury issues.

Kobe was the lead dog, but by no means in either back to back title run did he really separate himself from Gasol impact wise when you look at the numbers.

In 08-09', Gasol was actually the best player on the Lakers in the regular season by a smidge, Kobe by a smidge in the playoffs. In 09-10', Gasol was statistically better during both the regular season and playoffs.

Now, if we put all the stats in context, I would say they are both equally responsible for those titles. But acting like Kobe was head and shoulders the best player on the Lakers during those 2 title runs is flat out false. Gasol was amazing those 2 years. And the Lakers frontcourt had more to do with them winning chips than Kobe did man.

I'm not arguing that. Kobe was the clear leader and the heart and soul of those Lakers teams with Gasol. Gasol and Odom especially were a huge part of the Lakers winning those titles. But I know the player Gasol was (soft) before he played with Kobe and I put more stock into what Kobe has done to improve Gasol's toughness and intensity than anything else. That is why is put Kobe as the leader.