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View Full Version : Red Sox and Ortiz agree to one year extension



B'sCeltsPatsSox
03-23-2014, 05:11 PM
447842523424514048


Little more than I would've wanted it to be, but now they can focus on Lester at least.

B'sCeltsPatsSox
03-23-2014, 05:37 PM
447849143625863168

StryderSox
03-23-2014, 07:02 PM
447849143625863168

Had to see this coming...... After the October Papi had there is no way the Front Office could make the decision not to agree on an extension. An extra year at 16 million doesn't bother me much as payment for a 3rd World Series in the 11 years he has been here and hopefully this extension sees him retire at Fenway.

bagwell368
03-24-2014, 07:14 AM
447849143625863168

Options for '16 and '17 trigger from PA's is the report I heard.

David is dedicated to the idea of getting more money than he earns going forward to make up for the perceived shortfall earlier.

My call is that he doesn't earn his pay in any of his remaining years per FG WAR $.

I guess Sox fans that want him to finish his career here (like where else would he go - with all his financial interests in Boston?) will be pleased.

Next up Lester. To sign a deal right after opening day.

Vincent33
03-24-2014, 07:52 AM
Good for both sides. Its not like $$$$$ is any sort of issue for Boston and for all that Ortiz has meant to the franchise these last 11yrs, its probably worth it. If money was an issue, then thats a completely different story. But you know, **** it right? It ends up a $1M raise from what he'll make this year.

If he doesn't end up getting the PAs to trigger the option yrs, then I would think he'd be on the bench for a reason other than Boston not wanting to give him the $$$$. I think it would definitely be based on his performance/health.

bagwell368
03-24-2014, 08:01 AM
Good for both sides. Its not like $$$$$ is any sort of issue for Boston and for all that Ortiz has meant to the franchise these last 11yrs, its probably worth it. If money was an issue, then thats a completely different story. But you know, **** it right? It ends up a $1M raise from what he'll make this year.

Ortiz is already bucking the odds big time with his hitting the past two years, it's not going to continue forever. The question is will he have the class to do what Chipper did? Retire while he has money left on the contract?


If he doesn't end up getting the PAs to trigger the option yrs, then I would think he'd be on the bench for a reason other than Boston not wanting to give him the $$$$. I think it would definitely be based on his performance/health.

Agree with that, but, say next year he makes the PA's but hits .269/.323/.467 - with his usual negative defensiv value at DH? We have to pay $16M for a 41 year old coming off of that season?

Vincent33
03-24-2014, 08:24 AM
Ortiz is already bucking the odds big time with his hitting the past two years, it's not going to continue forever. The question is will he have the class to do what Chipper did? Retire while he has money left on the contract?



Agree with that, but, say next year he makes the PA's but hits .269/.323/.467 - with his usual negative defensiv value at DH? We have to pay $16M for a 41 year old coming off of that season?

That's a pretty interesting thought w/ the comparison to Chipper retiring when he did to what Ortiz may do. When he begins to regress enough for even the most ardent of Papi supporters to think, "Hmmm, maybe Papi should call it a career and save face a bit?".

Would it tarnish his legacy if he decided to continue playing and 'stealing' money from the Red Sox? Probably not. He'll go down as one of the top Red Sox players in the history of the organization. That's quite a feat for a team w/ such a history that Boston has and the players that built HoF careers there.

Kind of like Jeter and his swan song w/ NYY. Is he worth $12M? Absolutely not to any other team other than NYY. Just like Ortiz isn't worth the contract he's playing on to any team other than Boston. Both of those guys have been the face of those teams and MLB for so long and like I mentioned, money is absolutely no problem for either franchise. Drop in the bucket for those Billion dollar organizations.

RedSoxtober
03-24-2014, 08:37 AM
Options for '16 and '17 trigger from PA's is the report I heard.

Option for 2016 is vested based on PAs. Option for 2017 is entirely a club option.

bagwell368
03-24-2014, 08:57 AM
Option for 2016 is vested based on PAs. Option for 2017 is entirely a club option.

That's good news.

Vincent33: As for the Sox being a billion dollar organization, I don't care what the cost of buying the team is, I'm concerned about the cost vs the budget. If the Sox seek to have a $185M payroll, than $16M - that's 8.65% of the teams budget, so he better be productive at that cost - for this year I can see it, but for next year? Not so sure.

Toss in say $20M for Lester - that's $36M of money going to two contracts. I hope our farm produces two bona fide #2 #3 type SP's in the next couple of years so we don't get soaked for more high buck FA starters.

ruckus16969
03-24-2014, 10:43 AM
That's good news.

Vincent33: As for the Sox being a billion dollar organization, I don't care what the cost of buying the team is, I'm concerned about the cost vs the budget. If the Sox seek to have a $185M payroll, than $16M - that's 8.65% of the teams budget, so he better be productive at that cost - for this year I can see it, but for next year? Not so sure.

Toss in say $20M for Lester - that's $36M of money going to two contracts. I hope our farm produces two bona fide #2 #3 type SP's in the next couple of years so we don't get soaked for more high buck FA starters.


I could see us trading off allot of guys if we aren't in it by the TD this year like allot of us expected to happen last year.

I have a really hard time seeing this team being as good as it was last year in the first place. In the beginning of last year I was one of the few who thought we could be pretty decent and make it at least to the play-offs. But Allot if not everything went right for us last year. This year I have a harder time seeing that happen.

It certainly could be done. But We need XB and JBJ to be very solid. Sizemore would have to stay healthy and be somewhat good. WMB will have to be better. Peavy and Lackey will have to at least have repeat years. KU will have to not decline and at his age I have a hard time seeing a repeat. Nava/Gomes would have to be as good. Probably need 5 of those 8 things to work out for us. 2 years in a row of everything going great??? I hope so. But I don't know. Plus Ortiz having to be Ortiz.

If not we have a bunch of tradable pieces to make us better in the future. So pretty much win win for us.

At least no one in our division is clearly better then us. That's a huge plus. Although if things work out for that Yankees pitching staff and I really could see Pineda Tanaka being pretty good along with CC an and Kuroda and that offense they bought this year and Tex being healthy. They might be the team for us to beat this year

-Lavigne43-
03-24-2014, 11:34 AM
Ortiz is the last person I'm going to complain about after all hes done for this team. Hes been underpaid his entire career. Personally I think it's the right move to extend him now. What happens if he we didn't extend him and he has yet another terrific season? That would be a terrible contract.

grandsalami
03-24-2014, 11:52 AM
“@JonHeymanCBS: David Ortiz '16 option vests starting at $11M with 425 plate appearances in '15, graduates to $16M with 600 PAs. #redsox”


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Vincent33
03-24-2014, 12:08 PM
That's good news.

Vincent33: As for the Sox being a billion dollar organization, I don't care what the cost of buying the team is, I'm concerned about the cost vs the budget. If the Sox seek to have a $185M payroll, than $16M - that's 8.65% of the teams budget, so he better be productive at that cost - for this year I can see it, but for next year? Not so sure.

Toss in say $20M for Lester - that's $36M of money going to two contracts. I hope our farm produces two bona fide #2 #3 type SP's in the next couple of years so we don't get soaked for more high buck FA starters.

I understand the concern. I guess my thought w/ the Billion dollar comment was that Boston must be more than comfortable giving Ortiz that kind of contract extension knowing that there's a decent chance they may not get what they pay for. They can happily afford to go over the budget in Ortiz's case b/c its David Ortiz. Definitely thinking w/ the heart for the most part in this deal, but until he shows that he is in a serious, rapid decline they'll be (well I won't say happy...but not necessarily angry either...indifferent?..bah) w/ .260-.270BA, 18-23HR, 75-85RBI or whatever his line may drop towards as he creeps closer towards 40yrs of age.

todu82
03-24-2014, 12:29 PM
Good to see this, think he'll end up retiring a member of the team.

ruckus16969
03-24-2014, 01:59 PM
Good to see this, think he'll end up retiring a member of the team.

Seems that way. Another Sox uni in the HOF

bagwell368
03-24-2014, 02:38 PM
Cafardo that suck up said Ortiz settled for a home town discount. Yeah sure, next year $16M will put him as the highest paid DH of all time for a single season. He's currently holding 4 of the top 9, and if he gets his second option he'll be at 4 out of the top 4. Some discount.

He only has to get 425 PA's to trip his contract option - that's about 100 games.

Ortiz isn't a HOF player either, not on the numbers -only off of subjectives and emotion. It's like when people say he's better than Edgar - no way, Edgar as a ML player tops Ortiz.

Lackeyfan41
03-24-2014, 02:49 PM
How long before he heads to the media to pressure the FO to guarantee the 16 mil in '16?

ruckus16969
03-24-2014, 04:52 PM
I would bet just about anything that Ortiz is in the HOF probably 1st ballet but if not 2nd for sure

corky831
03-24-2014, 06:03 PM
Question is....will Ortiz get to 500 hrs? Either way it doesn't matter....the only way he doesn't get in the hall is if they hold it against him for being on the 2003 PED list. Edgar was a great hitter. Great average....solid power.....I don't think he can compare to Ortiz due to Ortiz's hitting capabilities in the clutch....not saying Edgar wasn't a clutch hitter....its just that Ortiz is probably top 5-10 mostcclutch hitters of all-time

Crucis
03-24-2014, 06:09 PM
Corky, I don't know if Ortiz is HOF worthy or not, as I haven't looked at his career numbers lately. But part of me wants to think that he should be, in large part because of his stellar post seasons and incredible clutch hitting ability. Hasn't it always been said that a strong post-season resume can greatly enhance a player's HOF chances? I think that some were saying that about Curt Schilling, for example.

Of course, I don't know if or how many HOF voters will hold Ortiz being a career DH against him.

corky831
03-24-2014, 08:26 PM
I agree and believe he should/will get in regardless of career stats....the only reason he won't is because he was on that PED list in 2003. If they will hold that against him or not will be determined

bagwell368
03-24-2014, 08:34 PM
Corky, I don't know if Ortiz is HOF worthy or not, as I haven't looked at his career numbers lately. But part of me wants to think that he should be, in large part because of his stellar post seasons and incredible clutch hitting ability. Hasn't it always been said that a strong post-season resume can greatly enhance a player's HOF chances? I think that some were saying that about Curt Schilling, for example.

Of course, I don't know if or how many HOF voters will hold Ortiz being a career DH against him.

Curt Schilling is better than over 1/2 the SP's in the HOF, he's a HOF'er.

David Ortiz is ranked as the 36th best 1B of all time - well below the average value of the average 1B in the HOF. By comparison Edgar is ranked as the 11th best 3B of all time.

Edgar was actually a good fielder at a key defensive position - 3B for about a 1/3 of his career. Edgar is a better hitter than Ortiz.

For one thing, Ortiz has played in better hitters parks which puffs up his numbers. Look at the era/park corrected slash:

Edgar: .308/.414/.509 - OPS+ 147
Ortiz: .280/.374/.537 - OPS+ 139

Edgar was also a great hitter all the way through his age 40 season only going down notably at age 41, we don't even know if Ortiz will be playing by age 40, and his numbers may take a major tumble along the way.

Ortiz's post season numbers are good, but, not fabulous: .295/.409/.553 (if park factors were applied to those raw numbers they wouldn't be much different than his career averages, and if using his Boston averages, his SLG in the post season is lower raw, and lower BA adjusted, and about equal in OBP.

As of now, in the regular season Edgar is a 68.3 rWAR player, Ortiz 44.2 - thus Ortiz's career is only 64.7% as valuable as Edgars, and so far Edgar isn't getting in. Why should Ortiz, because you like him? Not enough of a reason to overcome the DH taint (which he has worse than EM), or the roids (which nobody ever accused Edgar of that I have heard).

10 best years any order rWAR for each:

DO: 6.4, 5.7, 5.3, 4.4, 4.2, 3.9, 3.3, 3.1, 2.8, 1.7
EM: 7.0, 6.6, 6.4, 6.2, 6.1, 5.6, 5.6, 5.5, 4.9, 4.8 - Edgar crucifies Ortiz 10 best seasons any order.

EM also has a 3.3, 3.0, 2.6 in his next 3 to throw against Ortiz's: 1.3, 0.7, 0.7 - make that 13 any order


I haven't yet seen an argument that proves Ortiz is better than Edgar - most likely because he isn't.

corky831
03-24-2014, 08:39 PM
Well EM had higher WAR numbers because he played a position much longer than Ortiz ever played a position.....and I think EM deserves to be in the HOF as well as Ortiz. As for 500.....he's a lot further away than I thought being at 431. He'd need to average about 25 a yr over the next 3 yrs which is probably 5 percent chance of him doing that

bagwell368
03-24-2014, 09:20 PM
Well EM had higher WAR numbers because he played a position much longer than Ortiz ever played a position

No.

Ortiz oWAR 45.2 - 8249 PA's
Edgar oWAR 66.4 - 8674 PA's

So per PA, Ortiz's oWAR: .005479
So per PA, Edgar oWAR: .007655

Or in simple terms, per PA: Ortiz was worth 71.6% as much Edgar - that's a kick sand in your face difference. It's not base running either, because they are both morbidly bad at that.

Also, at age 38, 39 and 40 Edgar had a 160, 139 and 141 OPS+ seasons - something Ortiz fans coming off of his age 35, 26, 27 seasons at 161 may say is no big deal - but it is.

Without looking it up, I'd say Edgar's 38-39-40 seasons are among the dozen best every for a player at that age (.294/.412/.507 OPS+ 147)

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

On top of that Edgar was an above average 3B when he played and Ortiz was a meh 1B when he played, and 3B is about 3 times more valuable than 1B. So that helps, but...

corky831
03-24-2014, 09:53 PM
ok....points to you. I still think they both deserve to be in the HOF. I think EM had one of the nicest right handed swings in the game. I also believe Ortiz being a 3 time world champion compared to the zero titles EM has been a part of helps ortiz's case a bit more

bagwell368
03-24-2014, 10:24 PM
ok....points to you. I still think they both deserve to be in the HOF. I think EM had one of the nicest right handed swings in the game. I also believe Ortiz being a 3 time world champion compared to the zero titles EM has been a part of helps ortiz's case a bit more

I wrote someplace around PSD about six months ago that ironically Ortiz getting into the HOF would get Edgar in. I still don't think Ortiz is a slam dunk, he could use two more good seasons, he's short of PA's, HR's, etc.

corky831
03-24-2014, 10:34 PM
I know Ortiz is eventually going to decline but it has been amazing to see the numbers he has posted the past three seasons. I know he only played 90 games in one of the seasons....but I think we can all agree to say when we wanted Ortiz out back in 2008-2010 time frame due to lack of production....a lot of that most likely was due to the wrist injury in my eyes.

GrkGawdofWalkz
03-25-2014, 07:58 AM
Good to have this done. Lets move on to Lester.

bagwell368
03-25-2014, 08:33 AM
I know Ortiz is eventually going to decline but it has been amazing to see the numbers he has posted the past three seasons. I know he only played 90 games in one of the seasons....but I think we can all agree to say when we wanted Ortiz out back in 2008-2010 time frame due to lack of production....a lot of that most likely was due to the wrist injury in my eyes.

Yup, his last 3 years surprised me. Hope he does well going forward. The timing of his decline will go a long way to cementing the view of his career by HOF voters.

RedSoxtober
03-25-2014, 09:38 AM
I could see us trading off allot of guys if we aren't in it by the TD this year like allot of us expected to happen last year.
Quite possible but not necessarily required. They'll effectively have Lackey, Peavy, Pierzynski, Gomes, Koji, Ross, Badenhop, Capuano, Miller, and Sizemore coming off the payroll after this season (I say effectively because Lackey is likely to be around but at $16M less). That's in the $57-60M range on a payroll that is already somewhat comfortably under the luxury tax. Obviously the Sox will be attempting to bring back several of those guys -- and probably at a raise -- but others will have replacements at MLB minimum rates.


I have a really hard time seeing this team being as good as it was last year in the first place. In the beginning of last year I was one of the few who thought we could be pretty decent and make it at least to the play-offs. But Allot if not everything went right for us last year. This year I have a harder time seeing that happen.
I think it will just come down to the 5-7 guys that toe the rubber this year. If they have similar seasons then the team could be very competitive. I could see them in the playoff mix but, like last year, I project them more as a WC candidate than a division winner.



For one thing, Ortiz has played in better hitters parks which puffs up his numbers. Look at the era/park corrected slash:

Edgar: .308/.414/.509 - OPS+ 147
Ortiz: .280/.374/.537 - OPS+ 139
I won't dispute the point too much but I think that the HOF ballot, like MVP and other awards, is still influenced by enough "old school" voters that park adjustments and the like don't have that much influence.


Ortiz's post season numbers are good, but, not fabulous: .295/.409/.553 (if park factors were applied to those raw numbers they wouldn't be much different than his career averages, and if using his Boston averages, his SLG in the post season is lower raw, and lower BA adjusted, and about equal in OBP.
While true of his overall numbers I think there is an emotional impact to Ortiz' post season legacy that can't be quantified by looking only at the averages. His 2014 WS was other worldly. His dramatic HRs in 2004 were the stuff of legend. I believe that, given the chance, voters will be swayed by those kinds of moments toward putting a borderline candidate into the HOF. If Martinez had had either of those accomplishments I bet he'd be in (as he should be).


I wrote someplace around PSD about six months ago that ironically Ortiz getting into the HOF would get Edgar in. I still don't think Ortiz is a slam dunk, he could use two more good seasons, he's short of PA's, HR's, etc.
Agree on all of this... except that I don't think that Ortiz can retire early enough to help Edgar get in.


Yup, his last 3 years surprised me. Hope he does well going forward. The timing of his decline will go a long way to cementing the view of his career by HOF voters.
Interestingly there was a tidbit in the Herald today about how conversations between Ortiz and A-Gon convinced Papi to start going the other way against LHP and the impact that that has had on his last few seasons. Pretty plausible stuff.

-Lavigne43-
03-25-2014, 01:17 PM
Ortiz has no chance at the HoF right now with the combination of PED whispers and the stigma of being a DH. Edgar Martinez is getting what, 25% of the vote?

bagwell368
03-25-2014, 01:38 PM
Agree on all of this... except that I don't think that Ortiz can retire early enough to help Edgar get in.

Perhaps not get voted in, but the rule is a player that didn't drop off the ballot in year one (less than 5%) can be put in by the vet committee. Of course that could be 25-50 year wait - or more, which would suck for Edgar. Other problem all borderline HOF hitters have is the huge wave of retirements through these years. Bagwell isn't in, and he's well ahead of both of these guys for instance - he's even ahead of Frank Thomas.


Interestingly there was a tidbit in the Herald today about how conversations between Ortiz and A-Gon convinced Papi to start going the other way against LHP and the impact that that has had on his last few seasons. Pretty plausible stuff.

I remember that. I also remember in the '03-'07 days that Ortiz did that a lot, but in the years in between ('08-'10) he got away from that - perhaps because Manny was gone or that he gave into the pressure to "produce" and not just do what was best, plus of course the injuries he had too.

Bo Sox Fan
03-25-2014, 01:49 PM
edit

Station 13
03-25-2014, 07:13 PM
Ortiz has no chance at the HoF right now with the combination of PED whispers and the stigma of being a DH. Edgar Martinez is getting what, 25% of the vote?

Disagrees. If he stays clean until he retires, that 2003 testing won't stand in the way. Ortiz is remembered for the post-season heroics. Ortiz is in the top 5 MVP voting 5 times, Martinez only once. And Ortiz will probably have 500HR at the end of his career.

Martinez is remember just as a DH.

Ortiz will be remember as the DH.

bagwell368
03-25-2014, 08:43 PM
Disagrees. If he stays clean until he retires, that 2003 testing won't stand in the way. Ortiz is remembered for the post-season heroics. Ortiz is in the top 5 MVP voting 5 times, Martinez only once. And Ortiz will probably have 500HR at the end of his career.

Martinez is remember just as a DH.

Ortiz will be remember as the DH.

Cool story, Edgar is still a better hitter and a better player - with room to spare (read posts #22 and #24).

I also doubt Ortiz gets to 500, plus that's not the base line for the HOF in the steroid generation for hitters. Since he has such negative value for hitting, he'd be more like a Thome case - and everyone said he needed to get to 600. Ortiz's major claim is his clutch hitting (that reputation is obviously a nice thing to have, but it's more reputation than fact (his RISP and 2 out RISP OPS+ are both 105). His career is shortish too, and the DH thing weighs on him.

Bagwell has 79.5 rWAR (6th all time 1B per JAWS) and he's not in the HOF, and he was a fine fielder and base runner - far better all around player then Ortiz or arguably any 1B of the live ball era. But not in, and the level of suspicion on him and PEDS is roughly the same as Ortiz.

Will Clark 56.2 rWAR, not a HOF, excellent fielder, not liable to make it - ranks 24th all time 1B

Ortiz 44.2 rWAR, poor base runner, poor fielder, ranks 36th all time 1B, might get to Will Clark's level before he's done - probably falls short of Will. Cepeda and Perez are the live ball only 1B below Clark in the HOF. There were not that many good ones back then, counting the retirements the last 10 years and next 10 this is who Ortiz has to battle with at DH/1B:

Bagwell, Delgado, Teixera, Votto, Adrian Gonzalez, mcGriff, Helton, Thome, Pujols, Edgar, Cabrera

Of these guys only Thome, Edgar, and Ortiz put in a lot of time at DH.

That's a lot of guys to compete with, how many will get in? Maybe five? Bagwell, Thome, Cabrera, Pujols, Votto?

The steroid group getting enough votes to stay on the ballot dilutes the chances of all eligible players chances of getting in, and will continue for up to 20 years more. Ortiz could easily get lost by non Red Sox fans, and is not a shoe-in.

Would I put Ortiz in ahead of Rice - you bet - Rice is one of the worst voted in HOF'ers of the past 50 years. Dwight Evans was more deserving and he fell off the ballot. Lynn with fewer PA's was better then Rice too. Unless Ortiz copies his last 3 years or something similar, him getting in there isn't likely, but if it happens is likely to be a mistake - especially since Edgar was a better player.

The Edgar vs Ortiz MVP votes? MVP votes go to teams that play well - and are popularity contests. Outside of getting Griffy, Edgar and Unit on the same team, Seattle's GM's have been brutal, and its a very small TV market to boot.

Edgar is 76th in rWAR among positional players. Ortiz 251st - as of today no comparison - Cano already has more rWAR than Ortiz, so does J.D. Drew.

BostonSports96
03-29-2014, 02:26 AM
Yeah, everyone else made the argument for me. No way Ortiz is a HOF now, and there's a 90% chance he won't be, in my book. Nobody is going to vote him in on his clutch hitting factor, and, much like the last 2 seasons of balloting, the PED suspicion will be held against him....STRONGLY.

bagwell368
03-29-2014, 08:31 AM
Yeah, everyone else made the argument for me. No way Ortiz is a HOF now, and there's a 90% chance he won't be, in my book. Nobody is going to vote him in on his clutch hitting factor, and, much like the last 2 seasons of balloting, the PED suspicion will be held against him....STRONGLY.

Well I can't say nobody will be influenced by his clutch hitting. The question is how many. If he played for a franchise that wasn't as historically important (and doomed), and in such a major media market as the Red Sox - say KC or Houston - he would be a less important figure. But he'll need a couple of hundred votes for that, not a handful to get it done. In a lot of ways Edgar is the example of a guy in a small market that was great, but was mostly a DH, that's getting little traction.