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View Full Version : Identifying a players BEST Season, is it his most productive or winningest?



Chronz
03-20-2014, 06:34 PM
In a perfect world you get a combination of the 2, but thats too easy of a cop out, lots of players dont have the luxury of a perfect story arc where the 2 intertwine. Jerry West's first championship was bitter sweet, he always played well enough to win but he felt he played better in his youth. So he didn't really get to taste victory at the apex of his talent, though very close to it.

Not limiting this to just champions either, if you ask most people to name Dominique's best season, they would prolly bring up the year of the showdown with Bird, or the year he was MVP runner-up . If you ask Nique, he'll tell you his best days didn't even come in the 80's, but the 92-93 Season, his comeback from the achilles injury, a season that ended on a 3 game sweep at the hands of MJ. Said it was the year he had rounded out the rough edges in his game, added more skill while still having some bounce left in him and sure enough, it was the most efficient season of his career.


Perhaps the best example would be Allen Iverson, was his MVP/Finals Season his best season? Should we celebrate awards and victory or individual level of play?



The Challenge Identify peak season(s) for the following players : (As many as you can)



Wade
Nash
Iverson
Tmac
Kobe
KG
Duncan
Hakeem
MJ
Shaq


Old School Challenge:
Big O
Wilt
Russ
West
Elgin Baylor

beyourself
03-20-2014, 06:44 PM
I go by court impact and statistics, but more emphasis on impact. Like late 80s Jordan was at worst equal to early 90s Jordan statistically. But early 90s Jordan to me was better than late 80s Jordan as a player.

The reason is he played off ball more which hurt his assist numbers and opportunities as an individual to drive to the basket. But he opened up the game for his teammates to contribute. He diversified his game. He controlled the flow of the game better. He was just better in the early 90s than late 80s even though the stats would say he's about the same.

So for me MJ best season was 90-91.

For LeBron it was 12-13 for a lot of similar reasons to Jordan.

TheMightyHumph
03-20-2014, 06:52 PM
Matter of opinion

abe_froman
03-20-2014, 07:08 PM
Wade-'09
Nash-either '05 or'06,think i like '06 better
Iverson-'01
Tmac-'03
Kobe-everyone will say '08 or '06
KG-'04
Duncan-02/03
Hakeem-94
MJ-91
Shaq-'00
Big O-'62
Wilt-'62 or 67
Russ-'62 or '64
West-'66
Elgin Baylor-'63

Chrisclover
03-20-2014, 07:11 PM
your recommended list is kind of long. This thread is gonna be messy when different ideas of different players mix up.

savvy1803
03-20-2014, 07:38 PM
In a perfect world you get a combination of the 2, but thats too easy of a cop out, lots of players dont have the luxury of a perfect story arc where the 2 intertwine. Jerry West's first championship was bitter sweet, he always played well enough to win but he felt he played better in his youth. So he didn't really get to taste victory at the apex of his talent, though very close to it.

Not limiting this to just champions either, if you ask most people to name Dominique's best season, they would prolly bring up the year of the showdown with Bird, or the year he was MVP runner-up . If you ask Nique, he'll tell you his best days didn't even come in the 80's, but the 92-93 Season, his comeback from the achilles injury, a season that ended on a 3 game sweep at the hands of MJ. Said it was the year he had rounded out the rough edges in his game, added more skill while still having some bounce left in him and sure enough, it was the most efficient season of his career.


Perhaps the best example would be Allen Iverson, was his MVP/Finals Season his best season? Should we celebrate awards and victory or individual level of play?



The Challenge Identify peak season(s) for the following players : (As many as you can)



Wade
Nash
Iverson
Tmac
Kobe
KG
Duncan
Hakeem
MJ
Shaq


Old School Challenge:
Big O
Wilt
Russ
West
Elgin Baylor

For me it would be a season that the said player wins a ring , personal accolades , MVPs , scoring titles , all star selections are nice but the reason they compete is for the big prize , a championship .

Even if it's his worse statistical season injury - riddled or whatever , if it leads to the championship and he does not already have a ring it will probably be the first thing he remembers .

Personal accolades will enter in to it if has either won more than one championship or if he is never able to reach the ultimate prize . If he has won several rings maybe he goes back and looks at his best statistical year and different awards he has won and picks that one .

If he never wins maybe its the year he became what he would consider a complete player along with statistical accolades as well as personal ones , i believe KD may consider trading a scoring title or two to get a ring placed on his finger instead , so for me Chronz it would be winningest .

abe_froman
03-20-2014, 07:45 PM
For me it would be a season that the said player wins a ring , personal accolades , MVPs , scoring titles , all star selections are nice but the reason they compete is for the big prize , a championship .

Even if it's his worse statistical season injury - riddled or whatever , if it leads to the championship and he does not already have a ring it will probably be the first thing he remembers .

Personal accolades will enter in to it if has either won more than one championship or if he is never able to reach the ultimate prize . If he has won several rings maybe he goes back and looks at his best statistical year and different awards he has won and picks that one .

If he never wins maybe its the year he became what he would consider a complete player along with statistical accolades as well as personal ones , i believe KD would trade a scoring title or two to get a ring placed on his finger instead , so for me Chronz it would be winningest .
so you think gary payton's best season was '06?

the problem with just rings being that weighted(though i agree they should be a factor),is you get into quandaries like above ,where a guy who's clearly not at his best anymore finally gets his ring.

savvy1803
03-20-2014, 07:54 PM
so you think gary payton's best season was '06?

the problem with just rings being that weighted(though i agree they should be a factor),is you get into quandaries like above ,where a guy who's clearly not at his best anymore finally gets his ring.

You are right of course but if you talk to Payton i believe it's the ring he remembers fondest of all after chasing one in his prime for so many years , if its all about productivity and statistics then obviously i am off base , for me it's about the big prize first , statistics second .

To each his own in this regard , this is what i personally believe .

beyourself
03-20-2014, 08:03 PM
Would Durant trade a scoring title for a ring? No he wouldn't. He's not trying to win the scoring title. Clearly by taking 17 shots a game last year he could have given two craps about the scoring titles.

He's got 3 scoring titles. But you can't just trade one for a title. You just play.

Rings are a product of the best team that year in the playoffs. Nothing more or less.

savvy1803
03-20-2014, 08:11 PM
Would Durant trade a scoring title for a ring? No he wouldn't. He's not trying to win the scoring title. Clearly by taking 17 shots a game last year he could have given two craps about the scoring titles.

He's got 3 scoring titles. But you can't just trade one for a title. You just play.

Rings are a product of the best team that year in the playoffs. Nothing more or less.

You have taken what i said out of context , my point was personal accolades are great but they all start each season working towards the ultimate goal of a championship , i know he can't trade his scoring titles for a chip obviously .

Every owner , gm coach and player work towards this goal and they have fans all over the world hoping their team can attain it , they don't hang banners or have parades for regular season personal accolades but they do for a world championship .

TheNumber37
03-20-2014, 08:13 PM
Jordan once averaged 37ppg... Hardly his best season

Ebbs
03-20-2014, 09:17 PM
I think Best is a bad term.

Greatest legacy defining season?
Greatest statistical season?

They are different. So it depends on your definition of best. Shaq is one of the few I can think where both line up.

slaker619
03-20-2014, 09:51 PM
Wade with Shaq and Wade without shaq

ewing
03-20-2014, 11:52 PM
my best year was 1995. Ewing didn't miss a jump shots that year

Chronz
03-21-2014, 12:56 PM
your recommended list is kind of long. This thread is gonna be messy when different ideas of different players mix up.

Feel free to do your favorite players, Im trying to see how consistent this criteria can be. Ill sort out the mess when I get back from work/friday.

Chronz
03-21-2014, 12:57 PM
I think Best is a bad term.

Greatest legacy defining season?
Greatest statistical season?

They are different. So it depends on your definition of best. Shaq is one of the few I can think where both line up.

Best is the perfect term because it chooses you to weigh one of those more than the other. I feel like most players refer to their best days as the days when they themselves were at the top of their game.

D-Leethal
03-21-2014, 01:20 PM
A contextual analysis involving both is how you get there.

slashsnake
03-21-2014, 01:56 PM
A combination thereof. Last year was not one of Ray Allen's best seasons. Gary Payton's best year wasn't with the heat.

And it wasn't his favorite season either, not until after he won a ring and looked at it in hindsight maybe. It was his favorite season once it was done to look back on potentially.

lol, please
03-21-2014, 02:07 PM
His most productive, productivity being efficiency, and contribution to winning.

slashsnake
03-21-2014, 02:18 PM
His most productive, productivity being efficiency, and contribution to winning.

Kobe in 05-06 led the league in scoring and had his best year in terms of PER, and win shares. He had a career best shooting playoffs, and well above his playoff averages in terms of rebounds and assists..

He helped his team to 45 wins (post Shaq, pre-Pau) and they went out in the first round. Was that his best season?

That three year stretch before Pau and after Shaq was when he probably was playing at his best.

Ebbs
03-21-2014, 05:05 PM
Best is the perfect term because it chooses you to weigh one of those more than the other. I feel like most players refer to their best days as the days when they themselves were at the top of their game.

Ok well give me 10-11 Dirk he'd say the same thing.

05-06 Wade

99-00 Shaq

02-03 Duncan

90-91 Jordan

11-12 LeBron

b@llhog24
03-21-2014, 09:28 PM
Generally most productive. As long you didn't lay an egg in the playoffs I'll give you as pass. Like the best ball I've EVER seen Bron play is in 08-09 so putting a season like 11-12 over that doesn't sit well with me. If he had the support he would've won a ring in 08-09. (Although his stats may not have been as gaudy).

b@llhog24
03-21-2014, 09:40 PM
As far as current players are concerned caused I'd have to look up the older players:


Wade 09 (although I could see somebody taking 06)
Nash 06
Iverson which ever year that was when Philly didn't make the playoffs but he scored like 33 or something of that ilk.
Tmac would be 03
Kobe 01/06/09 (It's hard to find a definitive peak season for this guy)
KG 04
Duncan 03
Hakeem 94
MJ 91
Shaq 00

Chronz
03-23-2014, 01:03 PM
So for me MJ best season was 90-91.

I would agree with you, its also his best season statistically. Hes kind of an easy one to isolate IMO, sustained excellence does that.





As far as current players are concerned caused I'd have to look up the older players:

Wade 09 (although I could see somebody taking 06)
Nash 06
Iverson which ever year that was when Philly didn't make the playoffs but he scored like 33 or something of that ilk.
Tmac would be 03
Kobe 01/06/09 (It's hard to find a definitive peak season for this guy)
KG 04
Duncan 03
Hakeem 94
MJ 91
Shaq 00

Everything looks in order here, might bump Nash up to 07.






If he never wins maybe its the year he became what he would consider a complete player along with statistical accolades as well as personal ones , i believe KD may consider trading a scoring title or two to get a ring placed on his finger instead , so for me Chronz it would be winningest .
Thats just a hard concept to wrap my head around.




Ok well give me 10-11 Dirk he'd say the same thing.

05-06 Wade

99-00 Shaq

02-03 Duncan

90-91 Jordan

11-12 LeBron
How about Kobe and KG? Were their best playing days in years they won as well?




A contextual analysis involving both is how you get there.
Agreed. Any idea when Ewing was at his best? How about D-Rob or Melo.





Wade-'09
Nash-either '05 or'06,think i like '06 better
Iverson-'01
Tmac-'03
Kobe-everyone will say '08 or '06
KG-'04
Duncan-02/03
Hakeem-94
MJ-91
Shaq-'00
Big O-'62
Wilt-'62 or 67
Russ-'62 or '64
West-'66
Elgin Baylor-'63
Props on the old school challenge. Pretty consistent in your evaluation, except can you give some insight on Wade having his best season in the year he didn't win, yet AI not getting the same treatment? KG in 04 was at his best, he didn't win it all but I think that one is prolly obvious for all of us.

abe_froman
03-23-2014, 01:53 PM
Props on the old school challenge. Pretty consistent in your evaluation, except can you give some insight on Wade having his best season in the year he didn't win, yet AI not getting the same treatment? KG in 04 was at his best, he didn't win it all but I think that one is prolly obvious for all of us.
i have a value on winning when i can and with a.i. his prime was pretty similar year after year,so i differ to the year he lead them to the finals.while with wade,his prime was just so injury riddled ,and i guess i could have gone with '06 ,but that '09 he was just on another level(was def an mvp year if not for lebron)

savvy1803
03-23-2014, 02:53 PM
Chronz , what is the hard concept you can't wrap your head around , please explain ? If it's about KD trading in a scoring title or two , i meant it in a joking manner because obviously we all know he could'nt if he wanted to i was not expecting it to be taken literally , my mistake i made a poor analogy .

The point i was making is regular season accolades both statistical and award driven are great but the reason they do this is to try and win the biggest prize of all , a world championship . I have already said if you define " best season " by statistical means then i am off base and would look their way only if the player has never won the big prize or has has multiple championship seasons where he can look back on and pick one .

I am not trying to derail your thread but for me the big prize will always come first should a player be lucky enough to win one that"s why i answered winningest , i value championships way more then regular season accolades statistical or award based , just my personal opinion and don't expect you or others to agree .

Chronz
03-24-2014, 12:32 AM
Chronz , what is the hard concept you can't wrap your head around , please explain ?

The point i was making is regular season accolades both statistical and award driven are great but the reason they do this is to try and win the biggest prize of all , a world championship . I have already said if you define " best season " by statistical means then i am off base and would look their way only if the player has never won the big prize or has has multiple championship seasons where he can look back on and pick one .
I understand the need to value winning, I just dont understand the level to which you seemingly take it. By best season, Im speaking about the individuals level of play, the year you think the player would call his personal best playing days. Which to me, should never be completely about his teams success or simply measured by his own individual production, whatever the argument is, it should contain a blend of both IMO and it seems like you're on the extreme end of the spectrum.



I am not trying to derail your thread but for me the big prize will always come first should a player be lucky enough to win one that"s why i answered winningest , i value championships way more then regular season accolades statistical or award based , just my personal opinion and don't expect you or others to agree .
Yea but there has to be a breaking point, Gary Payton winning a ring was the example brought up and it rings true. There is no way Gary Payton would agree his best season was the one in which he was restricted to reserve status.

savvy1803
03-24-2014, 07:14 AM
[QUOTE=Chronz;28202417]I understand the need to value winning, I just dont understand the level to which you seemingly take it. By best season, Im speaking about the individuals level of play, the year you think the player would call his personal best playing days. Which to me, should never be completely about his teams success or simply measured by his own individual production, whatever the argument is, it should contain a blend of both IMO and it seems like you're on the extreme end of the spectrum.

I see my comment's were indeed off base now as you appear to be wanting a discussion about a melding of both production and winning after reading your explanation of "best season " as personal best playing days but when i read the thread title it stated " more productive or winningest " and i took this to mean by the word " or " a choice was being implied between the two .

So i then made the choice between the two and picked the appropriate one for my belief's which was winningest , i tried to support my answer in an open and honest manner and it was not my intent to muddy the waters so to speak or send the discussion in an entirely different direction . It is for this reason that i will remove myself from the discussion as my comment's do nothing to further the topic direction you intended when you started this thread.

I will agree when Payton won his ring it was indeed not his best statistical or productive season and i have covered my thought's on this in my previous posts .

Am i at the extreme end of the spectrum because i value a world championship before personal accolades or personal production , i have no idea and that's for others to judge ? Some may say you are at the extreme end of the spectrum when it comes to advanced numerical analytics , some may say this about you Chronz but i would'nt :) .

Either way i hope the discussion is carried along on the intended path you have chosen , it's a fascinating topic for sure .