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View Full Version : Which team takes longer to return to contention?



lol, please
03-19-2014, 12:46 AM
Real contention, not first round exit status. The Knicks now have Phil, that's like when the Dubs grabbed Jerry West, but even more significant possibly. The Lakers, well there is no reason imo to believe they will come back just because, the large market arguement, and history argument are not enough imo, but that's only my opinion, and many people think the Lakers cannot stay down for long, but emotions aside, I just don't see how a rapid turnaround is possible.

I think it's exciting to see what will happen with these two franchises over the next 2-5 years, how will the Laker fanbase/team handle it if they can't make a rapid return to contention? Likewise, what are the expectations of the Knicks in the near future, and how much of an impact can Phil make?

Jeffy25
03-19-2014, 12:59 AM
Knicks

They can turnover faster

abe_froman
03-19-2014, 01:23 AM
hmmmm,the lakers have a lotto pick which is a major leg up over ny in rebuilding....but i have more faith in the nyk front office now that they have phil

jerellh528
03-19-2014, 01:26 AM
Lakers should because of their lotto pick and ample cap space. Phil's never been fo before so we'll see how he does in a position other than coaching. He's not an analytics and stats guy though, that's for sure. Also meant to select lakers but the poll was a little misleading lol.

Dade County
03-19-2014, 01:29 AM
hmmmm,the lakers have a lotto pick which is a major leg up over ny in rebuilding....but i have more faith in the nyk front office now that they have phil

And that alone is wroth 12mil a yr

DODGERS&LAKERS
03-19-2014, 01:32 AM
Knicks

They can turnover faster

How so? The Lakers could possibly land Exum with their pick this year, sign Bosh, Deng, resign Pau after stretching Nash. This could be there starting lineup.

Pau
Bosh
Deng
Kobe
Exum

Will it be. Probably not. But the fact that its even a possibility means the Lakers can turn over faster. The Knicks are locked into that same roster next year with the possibility of being minus Melo. The Knicks don't have draft picks nor do they have the draw like playing for the Lakers. Phil down right sounded sad that he had to leave the 80 degree beach for 24 degree concrete jungle. That is a factor for free agents as well. For some reason, big time free agents like warm weather.

DODGERS&LAKERS
03-19-2014, 01:34 AM
Real contention, not first round exit status. The Knicks now have Phil, that's like when the Dubs grabbed Jerry West, but even more significant possibly. The Lakers, well there is no reason imo to believe they will come back just because, the large market arguement, and history argument are not enough imo, but that's only my opinion, and many people think the Lakers cannot stay down for long, but emotions aside, I just don't see how a rapid turnaround is possible.

I think it's exciting to see what will happen with these two franchises over the next 2-5 years, how will the Laker fanbase/team handle it if they can't make a rapid return to contention? Likewise, what are the expectations of the Knicks in the near future, and how much of an impact can Phil make?

We went through the entire 90's not competing. Didn't kill anyone. I think after the 13 year stretch they just gave us, two to five down years would be well worth it.

KingsnQueens7
03-19-2014, 01:37 AM
Knicks, but we're certainly heading in the right direction. Draft picks would of helped haha...

DODGERS&LAKERS
03-19-2014, 01:39 AM
hmmmm,the lakers have a lotto pick which is a major leg up over ny in rebuilding....but i have more faith in the nyk front office now that they have phil

Well if its just about front office personnel and we took the names out of it, who would you trust?

A- A tandem that has spent over 40 combined years under the best basketball owner, and one of the best GM's in Jerry West. Who have been behind player personal acquisitions for 5 championships. Have traded for Pau Gasol, Chris Paul, Dwight Howard. Drafted Andrew Bynum, and Marc Gasol in the second round.

B- First day on the job.

abe_froman
03-19-2014, 01:53 AM
Well if its just about front office personnel and we took the names out of it, who would you trust?

A- A tandem that has spent over 40 combined years under the best basketball owner, and one of the best GM's in Jerry West. Who have been behind player personal acquisitions for 5 championships. Have traded for Pau Gasol, Chris Paul, Dwight Howard. Drafted Andrew Bynum, and Marc Gasol in the second round.

B- First day on the job.
but the names are there and one of them is jim buss who has wreck a franchise that many thought unwreckable.signing off on bone head decision after bonehead decision since he took over.

and while it's b's first day on the job ,he has two things going for him.1.he isnt the guy above ;and 2.he's one of the most respected guys in basketball history ,even if he doesnt do anything,just the weight of his name will attract people

YoungOne
03-19-2014, 02:04 AM
two questions here that are asking the opposite?
You try to trick people?

"Who returns to serious contention first?" - Poll

"Which team takes longer to return to contention?" - Thread

DODGERS&LAKERS
03-19-2014, 02:21 AM
but the names are there and one of them is jim buss who has wreck a franchise that many thought unwreckable.signing off on bone head decision after bonehead decision since he took over.

and while it's b's first day on the job ,he has two things going for him.1.he isnt the guy above ;and 2.he's one of the most respected guys in basketball history ,even if he doesnt do anything,just the weight of his name will attract people

A couple questions if I may.

What decisions would you classify as "Jim Buss decisions?

How did he wreck the franchise?

Do you recall the great Dr Jerry Buss having a very similar down year after years of competing just 10 years ago?

Do you see the similarities between that 04/05 season and this one?

Lakers + Giants
03-19-2014, 02:24 AM
So people are voting Knicks just because of Phil?

jerellh528
03-19-2014, 03:10 AM
So people are voting Knicks just because of Phil?

The ones who selected Knicks read the thread question and then voted, the ones that voted lakers actually read the poll question first, then voted.

Jenceman
03-19-2014, 03:19 AM
The Lakers will probably have a top 5 pick, so I think them. They're almost guaranteed a future superstar.

elledaddy
03-19-2014, 03:41 AM
I would say the Knicks for 2 reasons( of course this is assuming they keep Melo).
1. They are in the East and as it looks for the now and the near future, thats the easier conference.
2. Both teams will have tons of cap room over the next 2 years but the 2015( knicks year) free agents pool is considerably better than the 2014( lakers year) free agent pool.

As far as the draft pick goes, Im a believer that more times than not a team will get an OK player as opposed to a "Superstar". Just the odds that you draft Wesley Johnson or Tyrus Thomas at #4 instead of CP3 or Russ Westbrook at #4.

Its actually kind of funny that EVERYBODY forgot the year the Knicks had last year bcuz of the mess this year. I wouldnt be surprised if the Knicks with basically the same roster( again assuming they keep Melo) gets further then LA next year. Unless LA gets Love, I can see them getting the 6th or 7th seed and losing again in the 1st round.

Bruno
03-19-2014, 04:44 AM
equal.

they both have a lot of cap space very soon. Lakers have a lottery pick, Knicks have Jackson.

jbeezy
03-19-2014, 01:14 PM
with jim buss running things I dont think we will see the playoffs for a very long time. Especially if we keep D'antoni as HC.

Goose17
03-19-2014, 01:41 PM
Knicks if they trade Melo for some decent youngsters and a few picks PLUS manage to package Felton and Smith. Better management and more trade assets imo.

Lakers will rebuild quickly though.

todu82
03-19-2014, 01:50 PM
The Knicks.

John Walls Era
03-19-2014, 01:53 PM
If Knicks retain Melo then they will make the playoffs first (note: if you consider that contention in the east). Otherwise its the Lakers. Knicks cant even tank without their firsts.

ManRam
03-19-2014, 02:21 PM
I think it's pretty equal.

The Knicks can set themselves up for HUGE cap room in 2016. Their issue is that they've traded so many picks away so recklessly. They have Melo, and keeping him around isn't a bad thing at all as he's the best player on either roster, by far. Even if they don't, I'm sure they can S&T him for some nice assets. Either way, having Melo is a plus for them. The East is a bit weaker, and perhaps will remain so for at least the foreseeable future.

The Lakers have some cap flexibility this summer, but I wouldn't bank on a great splash. Kobe's contract hurts, but isn't completely crippling. At the very least they also can enter 2016 with a ton of cap space (assuming they don't sign many/any long-term players this offseason). They're boosted because they have a high draft pick this year, which if used right could be the most important thing here.


Also, the Phil thing could factor in, but I'm not ready to pretend like it's a magical lifesaver just yet. I'm also not convinced the Lakers front office is as terrible as people are making it out to be.

KnicksorBust
03-19-2014, 02:31 PM
The key to this question to me is contention. You need a superstar to do that. While the Lakers MAY find one in the draft, I am looking at current rosters. At this point in their careers, Carmelo Anthony is more likely to take a team deep into the playoffs than Kobe Bryant. Therefore, I give the slight edge to the Knicks. Realistically though, the Lakers are not in nearly as bad shape as people think. If that pick becomes the right player, they will have re-built the team in 1 season.

lol, please
03-19-2014, 03:14 PM
The key to this question to me is contention. You need a superstar to do that. While the Lakers MAY find one in the draft, I am looking at current rosters. At this point in their careers, Carmelo Anthony is more likely to take a team deep into the playoffs than Kobe Bryant. Therefore, I give the slight edge to the Knicks. Realistically though, the Lakers are not in nearly as bad shape as people think. If that pick becomes the right player, they will have re-built the team in 1 season.

Based on what?

slashsnake
03-19-2014, 03:26 PM
Based on what?

I could see someone having a leg to stand on if they said based on Bryant entering his 19th season coming off of multiple leg injuries and having not even been active for the last two post-seasons...

I hope he proves a lot of doubters wrong, but I myself am one as much as I like him.

ManRam
03-19-2014, 04:47 PM
Based on what?

Common sense :shrug:

Melo was better than Kobe last season, has been better than Kobe was last season this very season and, oh yeah! He's also not going to be 36 years old coming off of two serious injuries :shrug:

RipCity32
03-19-2014, 05:24 PM
Kobe won't be anything like his former self anymore, So I'll go with Knicks.

KnicksorBust
03-19-2014, 05:56 PM
Based on what?

Basically...


I could see someone having a leg to stand on if they said based on Bryant entering his 19th season coming off of multiple leg injuries and having not even been active for the last two post-seasons...

I hope he proves a lot of doubters wrong, but I myself am one as much as I like him.

This.


Common sense :shrug:

Melo was better than Kobe last season, has been better than Kobe was last season this very season and, oh yeah! He's also not going to be 36 years old coming off of two serious injuries :shrug:

This.


Kobe won't be anything like his former self anymore, So I'll go with Knicks.

And this.

mike_noodles
03-19-2014, 06:25 PM
I'm sorry, return to contender? The Knicks haven't been a true contender for about 20 years. So there's that.

Trwood12
03-19-2014, 06:43 PM
At least the Knicks have a young superstar. All the Lakers have is a shell of a once great player. That is if he can even return.

Trwood12
03-19-2014, 06:46 PM
The Lakers will probably have a top 5 pick, so I think them. They're almost guaranteed a future superstar.

Didn't they trade away most of their picks for the next few years?

NBA_Starter
03-19-2014, 10:23 PM
To me this is definitely the Lakers.

Bostonjorge
03-20-2014, 01:46 AM
Lakers get the 1st pick then Kobe's revenge will begin. I know NY not getting the 1st or any other pick that matters. Lakers actually have a chance next year with draft and cap space. NY is already bad next year and we are still in this year.

Kaner
03-20-2014, 01:51 AM
Lakers but I think both teams have a long rebuild ahead of them

MickeyMgl
03-20-2014, 04:17 AM
We went through the entire 90's not competing. Didn't kill anyone. I think after the 13 year stretch they just gave us, two to five down years would be well worth it.

You remember the 90s differently than I do.

1991: 58-24 & Finals
94-95: 48-34
95-96: 53-29
96-97: 56-26
97-98: 61-21 & WCF
98-99: 31-19

MickeyMgl
03-20-2014, 04:42 AM
Well if its just about front office personnel and we took the names out of it, who would you trust?

A- A tandem that has spent over 40 combined years under the best basketball owner, and one of the best GM's in Jerry West. Who have been behind player personal acquisitions for 5 championships. Have traded for Pau Gasol, Chris Paul, Dwight Howard. Drafted Andrew Bynum, and Marc Gasol in the second round.

Giving them an awful lot of credit for those 5 championships. West acquired Shaq and Kobe. Gasol was acquired after Dr Jerry came in to put out the fire Jim reportedly started in 2007 that set Kobe on his trade demands.

Drafted project Andrew Bynum and his extensive history of knee problems, invested a couple of wasted years in him, and then were surprised when he had knee problems just as he was starting to play well.

And between Andrew and Marc, does anybody today believe they traded the right young big man for Pau?



B- First day on the job.

For me, it's

A) President of Basketball Operations with more than 50 years in the game, who had success as a player at every level, who has won pro championships twice as a player, and then once as a coach in the CBA, and in the NBA 11 times in two cities with a variety of players.

Received a degree from the University of North Dakota while leading them to two consecutive Final Fours in the NCAA Div II Tournament. Has written several books on the game of basketball.

Stepping up to the next logical challenge. An opportunity he has EARNED.

B) President of Basketball Operations with no personal basketball background or achievements. No college degree. Failed horse trainer. Failed indoor soccer owner. Inherited everything he has, including his current position.

MickeyMgl
03-20-2014, 04:55 AM
A couple questions if I may.

What decisions would you classify as "Jim Buss decisions?

-Hiring Rudy Tomjanovich (has always been credited to Jim).
-Hiring Mike Brown (and specifically purging the Lakers of all things Jackson, including his coaching staff, who could have provided a more stable transition with the same players).
-Hiring Mike D'Antoni (although this is disputed).
-Drafting Andrew Bynum despite bad knees.
-Throwing Kobe Bryant under the bus in 2007.
-Trading Bynum and draft picks for Dwight Howard even after Howard had given strong hints that he was not interested in staying with the Lakers long term.
-Holding on to Howard past the trade deadline even after Howard CONTINUED to hint that he would not re-sign. Presumably, because "we are the Lakers" and "nobody leaves the Lakers".
-Trading four more draft picks for a soon-to-be 40-year-old PG with a history of back injuries and coming off an injury-plagued season.

Um... that's just off the top of my head.



How did he wreck the franchise?

See above.



Do you recall the great Dr Jerry Buss having a very similar down year after years of competing just 10 years ago?

The year Tomjanovich quit? The team with a prime and healthy Kobe Bryant to look forward to the next season?



Do you see the similarities between that 04/05 season and this one?

Frankly, no.

MickeyMgl
03-20-2014, 05:17 AM
The key to this question to me is contention. You need a superstar to do that. While the Lakers MAY find one in the draft, I am looking at current rosters. At this point in their careers, Carmelo Anthony is more likely to take a team deep into the playoffs than Kobe Bryant. Therefore, I give the slight edge to the Knicks. Realistically though, the Lakers are not in nearly as bad shape as people think. If that pick becomes the right player, they will have re-built the team in 1 season.

One player = a team?

jerellh528
03-20-2014, 05:20 AM
Lakers when they draft exum, then get love 2015 offseason then durant the next.
Exum, durant, love seems like a formidable core. Or wiggins, Irving, love, or Embiid, love, durant. Either way by the time Kobe's contract expires I can see la being a contender again.

thenaj17
03-20-2014, 06:24 AM
Lakers when they draft exum, then get love 2015 offseason then durant the next.
Exum, durant, love seems like a formidable core. Or wiggins, Irving, love, or Embiid, love, durant. Either way by the time Kobe's contract expires I can see la being a contender again.

None of the above are happening. You have got to be deluded.

Both Knicks and Lakers will not be seriously competing for at least 2/3 years.

Knicks are tied for 2 years with bad contracts. Melo may actually leave. They are doing well enough to get mediocre picks even if they had their own. If Melo leaves, which is a real possibility, they will be irrelevant for 3-4 years. If he stays 2015 theyonly need to add 1 top level player to be competing.

Lakers aren't getting any star this summer despite others thinking they may trade for Love/Irving before they are free, not that either is good enough to make a team contend - see Wolves & Cavs. The Lakers 2015 pick is not their own outside top 5 and it's very unlikely they'll be this bad next season with Kobe & Nash back healthy.

Both teams can draw free agents as big markets so that's a wash.

Phil should draw players like Riley did with Miami and will have a clear strategy for the next 3-5 years. Lakers FO seems to have no long term strategy, just reload as soon as possible by overpaying Kobe and they will probably be pressured into signing some sub-par player for more money than they deserve, which will good enough to get playoffs but not where Lakers should be aiming for. Advantage Knicks

The tiebreaker for my vote to go Lakers is the pick Lakers get this year. With so many good players available, there's a very good chance of hitting.

If they draft badly, it could be a long road back to success.

PhillyFaninLA
03-20-2014, 09:51 AM
Lakers....historically the Lakers have never been done for that long

monty77
03-20-2014, 11:39 AM
This is very hard to say because when some of these teams became a contender they won't keep any of their current players in the roster. Maybe Carmelo if he re-sign a long contract could belong to Knicks when they return to contention, but I don't think that Kobe has a chance any more.

Lakers have no committed money next year, apart of Kobe's and Nash's contracts (about 35 millions altogethers), so they could sign a good star and some profitable players. There are already some good players in the squad who would re-sign cheapily, such as: Young, Farmar, Brooks, W.Johnson and Kendall Marshall. However, it takes a long time to became a contender when you sign new players and new coach.Them both are going to change their coach as soon as possible. They didn't prove their value last years, so it takes sense fire them.

Besides, Lakers have another advantage: they will have a top 10 draft pick next year, even better, they could get a top 3. So, they have more chances to star the rebuilding sooner than Knicks, which have to wait a further year in order to get rid of ugly contracts: Stoudamire (23 million) and Bargiani (12 million). Them both earn the same money than Nash and Kobe, that is true, but maybe Nash retires and Kobe is better than them if he perform 40% of his previous level.

Don't matter if Melo re-sign or don't, it would take about 4-5 years to return to contention any way. However, Lakers could start next year to rebuild and maybe became a contender within 2 or 3 years if they makes good acquisitions and Kobe perform properly in his last year as profesional. It would be a great way to retire.

FYL_McVeezy
03-20-2014, 11:47 AM
None of the above are happening. You have got to be deluded.

Both Knicks and Lakers will not be seriously competing for at least 2/3 years.

Knicks are tied for 2 years with bad contracts. Melo may actually leave. They are doing well enough to get mediocre picks even if they had their own. If Melo leaves, which is a real possibility, they will be irrelevant for 3-4 years. If he stays 2015 theyonly need to add 1 top level player to be competing.

Lakers aren't getting any star this summer despite others thinking they may trade for Love/Irving before they are free, not that either is good enough to make a team contend - see Wolves & Cavs. The Lakers 2015 pick is not their own outside top 5 and it's very unlikely they'll be this bad next season with Kobe & Nash back healthy.

Both teams can draw free agents as big markets so that's a wash.

Phil should draw players like Riley did with Miami and will have a clear strategy for the next 3-5 years. Lakers FO seems to have no long term strategy, just reload as soon as possible by overpaying Kobe and they will probably be pressured into signing some sub-par player for more money than they deserve, which will good enough to get playoffs but not where Lakers should be aiming for. Advantage Knicks

The tiebreaker for my vote to go Lakers is the pick Lakers get this year. With so many good players available, there's a very good chance of hitting.

If they draft badly, it could be a long road back to success.

Great post! I agree....

Gibby23
03-20-2014, 01:05 PM
The Knicks haven't been "serious contenders" in over 15 years. WHy are the Lakers being lumped with the Knicks? The question would be better if it was the Celtics and the Lakers. But the Knicks? Lol..

Gibby23
03-20-2014, 01:09 PM
Didn't they trade away most of their picks for the next few years?

We have 2014, 2016, and 2018 on. Just happens that we sucked this year in a good draft class.

JasonJohnHorn
03-20-2014, 04:21 PM
The Knicks have the potential to clear cap space over the next two seasons, which can allow them to build a team. Let Melo walk, do a sign-and-trade with Houston for young talent and picks, and move forward. Take a losing season, get your pick, and try to bring in some free agents to put in with the pick.


I don't think either team has the kind of ownership that can build a champion. Buss thinks he knows something and doesn't, where as Dolan has the highest turnover rate for GMs in the league, so nobody is ever around long enough to build anything and every GM they have swings for the fences their last year and then the guy coming in has a $#!T storm of a mess to clean up when he arrives.


They are huge markets with tons to spend, so they will bring talent in, but bottom line is their ownership is going to hold them back from capitalizing on that.


That Kobe contract is crazy!

mdm692
03-20-2014, 05:11 PM
How so? The Lakers could possibly land Exum with their pick this year, sign Bosh, Deng, resign Pau after stretching Nash. This could be there starting lineup.

Pau
Bosh
Deng
Kobe
Exum

Will it be. Probably not. But the fact that its even a possibility means the Lakers can turn over faster. The Knicks are locked into that same roster next year with the possibility of being minus Melo. The Knicks don't have draft picks nor do they have the draw like playing for the Lakers. Phil down right sounded sad that he had to leave the 80 degree beach for 24 degree concrete jungle. That is a factor for free agents as well. For some reason, big time free agents like warm weather.

NVM on the first question for those who saw it. I agree on the Lakers as long as they don't sign any long term contracts. Just sign Deng and Pau until Kobe's contract expires.

DODGERS&LAKERS
03-20-2014, 10:18 PM
Giving them an awful lot of credit for those 5 championships. West acquired Shaq and Kobe. Gasol was acquired after Dr Jerry came in to put out the fire Jim reportedly started in 2007 that set Kobe on his trade demands.

So Jim has been running the team lawlessly since way back then? Mitch just plays solitaire and Dr. Buss was at the playboy mansion? Sounds to me like you want to give all the credit to one guy when things go right and all the blame to another when they don't. When all reports said that they were a three headed monster.


Drafted project Andrew Bynum and his extensive history of knee problems, invested a couple of wasted years in him, and then were surprised when he had knee problems just as he was starting to play well.

Bynum had one knee injury in high school. I guess Embiid should go to the second round. Wasted years? Look at his production when he was on the court. In 2012 he was the best center in the NBA. He was good enough to net us Dwight Howard pretty much straight up.


And between Andrew and Marc, does anybody today believe they traded the right young big man for Pau?

Trades go two ways. Who says the Grizzlies wanted Bynum?




For me, it's

A) President of Basketball Operations with more than 50 years in the game, who had success as a player at every level, who has won pro championships twice as a player, and then once as a coach in the CBA, and in the NBA 11 times in two cities with a variety of players.

Received a degree from the University of North Dakota while leading them to two consecutive Final Fours in the NCAA Div II Tournament. Has written several books on the game of basketball.

Stepping up to the next logical challenge. An opportunity he has EARNED.

Phil definitely earned a chance. He may be great at his new position. But like I said, as far as drafting, trading, signing, scouting, working with the salary cap, he has not done any of it. Mitch has, and has been pretty successful. I give Jerry West the credit for the three peat. Even though Mitch was the GM for two of them. But he was the GM that built an entire team around one player in Kobe. He was the only one left from Jerry West. And not only built back to back teams, had all other NBA fans taking credit away from Kobe due to him having "the best talent around"


B) President of Basketball Operations with no personal basketball background or achievements. No college degree. Failed horse trainer. Failed indoor soccer owner.

Does Mark Cuban have any "basketball background or achievements? He also failed at carpentry, being a restaurant cook, and a waiter. Shoot, he couldn't even open a wine bottle. http://www.sbnonline.com/component/k2/7-dallas-editions/19511#.UyufkMtOU5s
That didn't stop him from building a winner.


Inherited everything he has, including his current position.

This is what I believe to be the issue you and a lot of other people have of him. Nobody likes the spoiled brat born with a silver spoon in their mouth and get where they are due to nepotism. But there are a lot of owners who are rich and buy a team for kicks who know nothing about the sport. They don't have half the experience Jim has and yet they are given a chance because they are the new guy on the block. We don't know much about them so we cut them some slack. Jim has the unenviable task of running the team right after the greatest owner in basketball. Nobody is going to live up to Dr. Buss. That doesn't mean the new guy is an utter moron. He may be, but he has not had enough time to prove it one way or another.

DODGERS&LAKERS
03-20-2014, 10:21 PM
You remember the 90s differently than I do.

1991: 58-24 & Finals
94-95: 48-34
95-96: 53-29
96-97: 56-26
97-98: 61-21 & WCF
98-99: 31-19

You are right, they did contend. I was thinking more along the lines of getting to the finals or winning but they were not horrible except for a couple of years.

DODGERS&LAKERS
03-20-2014, 10:53 PM
-Hiring Rudy Tomjanovich (has always been credited to Jim).

Who would have been better? Under Rudy they were doing pretty good considering the lack of talent and a completely new roster full of guys who had never played with each other. Nobody knew he would retire from coaching mid season. But before he did, they were a 6 seed in a very tough west. Who would have been a better option at the time over a two time champ? But once again, Mitch? Dr. Buss? They had no say right?

-Hiring Mike Brown (and specifically purging the Lakers of all things Jackson, including his coaching staff, who could have provided a more stable transition with the same players).

I really want to know why Mitch or Dr. Buss received a check since they did nothing.

-Hiring Mike D'Antoni (although this is disputed).
By all accounts this was Dr. Buss's last order. Don't know if you heard Jeanie Buss on the radio today but you can see why he made that decision. He had angst against Phil for not putting a ring on it for 12 years.

-Drafting Andrew Bynum despite bad knees.
Like I said, that was a good draft pick. He produced when he was on the court at all star level and was flipped for Howard.

-Throwing Kobe Bryant under the bus in 2007.
Proof?

-Trading Bynum and draft picks for Dwight Howard even after Howard had given strong hints that he was not interested in staying with the Lakers long term.
He never said he was not interested in staying long term. He just didn't sign. The Lakers were on his three team list that he wanted to talk to along with the Nets and the Mavs. Its not like the Bucks traded for him knowing there is no chance he would stay. Even after the horrible year, it was 50/50 with the Rockets or Lakers. Even though the Rockets obviously had the better team to surround him with.


-Holding on to Howard past the trade deadline even after Howard CONTINUED to hint that he would not re-sign. Presumably, because "we are the Lakers" and "nobody leaves the Lakers".

I don't remember ever hearing him hint that he would not stay. Proof? But I would agree, if they went to him in January and asked him straight up "do you want to stay here" and the answer was no, they should have gotten whatever they could.

-Trading four more draft picks for a soon-to-be 40-year-old PG with a history of back injuries and coming off an injury-plagued season.

If you were complaining about the trade that 4th of July then kudos to you. But I don't remember anyone having a bad thing to say about it when it happened. Hindsight is 20/20. Was it a bad deal in retrospect? Of course. But you cant predict injuries. Should the Spurs cut Duncan? He is the same age as Nash was when we got him. Making more money too. Should the Spurs kick themselves if Tim gets hurt and say we were dumb to keep him on the court?


Um... that's just off the top of my head.

I'll give you one. Giving Kobe that atrocious contract. That is indefensible.




See above.

Seen it, don't buy that its all his fault.




The year Tomjanovich quit? The team with a prime and healthy Kobe Bryant to look forward to the next season?

Yes that year. We would have had a Howard or CP3 to look forward to after Bryant has gotten old if not for circumstances out of Jims control.




Frankly, no.

Well let me spell it out then. Dr. Buss was the owner of the Lakers undeniably. He let the greatest coach ever walk away. He traded the best big man in the game who is a top 10 player for pennies on the dollar. He let a team who had just gotten to the finals 4 out of 5 years deteriorate to a 34 win team who missed the playoffs. We went from a starting lineup of Shaq, Malone, George, Kobe, Payton to Mihm, Odom, Walton, Kobe, Smush. He wasted 3 prime years of Kobe Bryant because he didn't like that Shaq disrespected him. Kobe wanted a trade not because anyone "threw him under the bus" but because he said Jerry Buss lied to him when he said he could build a contender. He was playing with Kwame Brown, Odom, Walton, Smush and no bench.

Now, we went to 3 finals in a row. Got swept in the second round, beat in the second round, and swept in the first. Now the team is just like that 04/05 team. With nobody on it and in the lottery. And every Laker fan up in arms. Just like we were 10 years ago.

In my opinion, Jim inherited the team at the wrong time. With aging stars in Kobe and Pau. Teams cant go on runs forever. They have to come down. The Lakers tried to make moves to avoid that but it didn't work out. But they have to go that route. Just like every other team in every other sport in history. I have patience to see how it plays out. I will give Jim and Mitch 3 or 4 years to see how their plan plays out.

NBA_Starter
03-20-2014, 10:59 PM
How could anyone not see it's the Lakers?

ldawg
03-20-2014, 11:56 PM
This is a trick question. Both teams need time. I think Lakers can be a playoff team as quick as next season but not a true contender for a long time. Kobe is the best and highest paid at the moment who don't like the coach or system nor does he fit the system not to mention coming off two major injuries. How good will Kobe be? Even with a high draft pick The Lakers defense is among the league worst and any player drafted will take time unless they draft Magic or Duncan. NY on the other hand is only one player away from being a contender in the east but will be going true changes in system and coach. Players will be moved to fit. I will have to roll with the Knicks on this one as quickest to true contenders. Lakers will be a tease for a while being very inconsistent on the road when shots are not falling. They do nothing system wise to set them apart from other run and gun teams in the middle of the pack. Can Lakers stay healthy to turn it on when it matters like they did in the better years? I think NK will take more pride in defense and will have a system over the any thing goes herky jerky up and down style. Its not going to be the Lakers that turn it on in June like Laker fans are use to. Its a New Era and if you want to be the best run and gun team you got to get the best run and gun players and Lakers don't have that. They are hoping they draft right and hoping to draw good free agents in a year or two and how good of a free agents on the market will put them over the top? in all honesty Lakers chances of being the West best is as good as Suns or Miny. Good bigs wont be in line to join Lakers that's going to hurt them. No big will like playing for Mike.

mightybosstone
03-21-2014, 01:14 AM
If I'm being realistic, I don't think either team has much of a chance to contend in the near future barring a miracle. But if I had to put money on it, I'd pick New York. If Melo re-signs, they'll have a top 10-15 caliber player still in his prime for another five seasons and a boatload of cap to build around in 2015, plus a pretty damn good basketball mind at the helm in Jackson.

I really question what kind of player Kobe will be when he returns, but even if he manages to be 100% the guy he was last season, that won't be remotely enough. They need this lottery pick to amount to something and relatively quickly, they need at least 70-80% of a prime Kobe and at least one more superstar player. And then they'd have to contend in an insanely talented, insanely young Western Conference. I just don't see it happening in the next 3-4 years.

For New York to contend in the East, they just need to pair Melo with another superstar scorer, shooters and a few decent role-playing defenders. Hell, they were the No. 3 seed in the East last season with Chandler as their second best player. Or New York could go another route, deal Melo for as many assets as possible and look to build a solid core to add superstar free agents to in 2015. Regardless, LA is slightly harder to build around right now because of Kobe's contract, and you have to think Phil makes some kind of a difference for New York.

ldawg
03-21-2014, 02:02 AM
Kobe decline which was showing two years before taking on two major injuries on top his troublesome knees and now his Salary will make it harder for Lakers. Its not about the numbers its how Kobe plays now compare to his prime days. Lakers can patch a team together as a contender but not under their current system.

Kyle,Farmar,Nash
Kobe,Swaggy,Henry
deng,Johnson,
Boozer,??,Kelly
Pau,Hill,sacre

Problem 1 Kobe cash hinders the needed help for his decline.
problem 2 Not a Mike team. system is a problem. What players can you sign to play with Kobe to be a true contender in Mike System? Thinking Mike here, Does a team of
Nash,Farmar,Marshall
Kobe,Meeks,bezmore
Johnson,Swaggy
Deng,Kelly,
Pau,Sacre
turn Lakers into a top team playing run and gun? I don't think so and no Rookie is going to change that. Normally rookies don't win titles vets do.

MickeyMgl
03-21-2014, 04:48 AM
So Jim has been running the team lawlessly since way back then? Mitch just plays solitaire and Dr. Buss was at the playboy mansion? Sounds to me like you want to give all the credit to one guy when things go right and all the blame to another when they don't. When all reports said that they were a three headed monster.

So it's a three-headed monster again. Earlier you were saying they were a "tandem" that was behind the player acquisitions for 5 championships. You're telling me that Jim Buss was brought in from the stables in 1998 and that he and Mitch together were behind the acquisition of Shaq and Kobe in 1996? You're giving them credit for 5 championships, and 5 championships ago was 2000.

Sounds to me like you're trying to inflate Jim Buss' track record.




Bynum had one knee injury in high school.

He had his first knee surgery when he was 12 years old. THEN he went to high school, where he played a total of 32 games because of knee issues.



Look at his production when he was on the court.

I don't grade on a curve.



In 2012 he was the best center in the NBA. He was good enough to net us Dwight Howard pretty much straight up.

"Pretty much straight up" except for the other 4-5 assets that were included. It's too bad that front office insisted on only trading him for a player that had made his disinterest in the Lakers clear. Trading your best asset for a player who is gone a year later is not something to brag about. Not trading THAT asset at the deadline and netting nothing out of both moves is also not something to brag about.



Trades go two ways. Who says the Grizzlies wanted Bynum?


Seriously? Do you think the Lakers even asked?



Does Mark Cuban have any "basketball background or achievements? He also failed at carpentry, being a restaurant cook, and a waiter. Shoot, he couldn't even open a wine bottle. http://www.sbnonline.com/component/k2/7-dallas-editions/19511#.UyufkMtOU5s
That didn't stop him from building a winner.

Mark Cuban has a degree. He is an accomplished businessman and entrepreneur. He has credibility. Jim Buss can't be compared to Mark Cuban. He can't compare to Jeanie Buss, actually. She is in the job she is in because she has decades of experience at many levels of the business, and she has a college degree. That's why she is the President and the Governor of the Lakers.

However, Mark Cuban's Mavericks have a President of Basketball Operations. That's Jim's with the Lakers. Donn Nelson spent decades as an assistant coach before becoming one of the top personnel people in the NBA.

Not every head of basketball operations in the NBA has a background in basketball. However, all of those that don't - except for one - at least has a college degree. Guess which one? Hint: It's not the Knicks' basketball ops guy.



This is what I believe to be the issue you and a lot of other people have of him. Nobody likes the spoiled brat born with a silver spoon in their mouth and get where they are due to nepotism. But there are a lot of owners who are rich and buy a team for kicks who know nothing about the sport.

They earned the right to do so by either accumulating the wealth to buy the team, or putting together a group of investors to buy the team, or by actually running the team as its CEO or Governor. If you can't do any of those, you stay the heck away and let basketball/football/baseball people run it. Jim is not qualified to run the business, and he's not qualified to run basketball operations... but his father wanted him to be able to play fantasy basketball with a real team, so there Jim is.

It's not nepotism if you're qualified. Jeanie worked her way up. Others have worked their way up, or shown their aptitude in running other companies.



They don't have half the experience Jim has and yet they are given a chance because they are the new guy on the block. We don't know much about them so we cut them some slack. Jim has the unenviable task of running the team right after the greatest owner in basketball. Nobody is going to live up to Dr. Buss. That doesn't mean the new guy is an utter moron. He may be, but he has not had enough time to prove it one way or another.

Except that he's not really running the team, is he? Jeanie is. She is following her father's footsteps. Jim is actually in the position that was once held by Jerry West. If he were qualified to do Jeanie's job, as Dr Buss was, then he'd have the option to take both titles, as Dr Buss did for a while after West left.

Jim is not the owner. He's AN owner. Jeanie has all the titles and responsibilities of "the" owner. Again, Jim just gets to play fantasy basketball with a real team.

lakers squad
03-21-2014, 05:02 AM
The Lakers will probably have a top 5 pick, so I think them. They're almost guaranteed a future superstar.

you better think more like 3-4, ive heard leaks saying the lakers or going to offer 2-3 poison pills this summer!!!

lakers squad
03-21-2014, 05:07 AM
NVM on the first question for those who saw it. I agree on the Lakers as long as they don't sign any long term contracts. Just sign Deng and Pau until Kobe's contract expires.

exactly unless they do the thing with the poison pills!!!

lakers squad
03-21-2014, 05:14 AM
Eric Bledsoe will be the 1st one offered the poison pill 2014/15 4.5 mil. 2015/16 4.5 mil. 2016/17 14.5 mil, think the suns will match???

lakers squad
03-21-2014, 05:33 AM
So it's a three-headed monster again. Earlier you were saying they were a "tandem" that was behind the player acquisitions for 5 championships. You're telling me that Jim Buss was brought in from the stables in 1998 and that he and Mitch together were behind the acquisition of Shaq and Kobe in 1996? You're giving them credit for 5 championships, and 5 championships ago was 2000.

Sounds to me like you're trying to inflate Jim Buss' track record.
guess who wins more than anyone else with phil landing with the knicks, answer Jeanie buss...that is one hell of a business women, now she has her spy in place!!!



He had his first knee surgery when he was 12 years old. THEN he went to high school, where he played a total of 32 games because of knee issues.



I don't grade on a curve.



"Pretty much straight up" except for the other 4-5 assets that were included. It's too bad that front office insisted on only trading him for a player that had made his disinterest in the Lakers clear. Trading your best asset for a player who is gone a year later is not something to brag about. Not trading THAT asset at the deadline and netting nothing out of both moves is also not something to brag about.



Seriously? Do you think the Lakers even asked?



Mark Cuban has a degree. He is an accomplished businessman and entrepreneur. He has credibility. Jim Buss can't be compared to Mark Cuban. He can't compare to Jeanie Buss, actually. She is in the job she is in because she has decades of experience at many levels of the business, and she has a college degree. That's why she is the President and the Governor of the Lakers.

However, Mark Cuban's Mavericks have a President of Basketball Operations. That's Jim's with the Lakers. Donn Nelson spent decades as an assistant coach before becoming one of the top personnel people in the NBA.

Not every head of basketball operations in the NBA has a background in basketball. However, all of those that don't - except for one - at least has a college degree. Guess which one? Hint: It's not the Knicks' basketball ops guy.



They earned the right to do so by either accumulating the wealth to buy the team, or putting together a group of investors to buy the team, or by actually running the team as its CEO or Governor. If you can't do any of those, you stay the heck away and let basketball/football/baseball people run it. Jim is not qualified to run the business, and he's not qualified to run basketball operations... but his father wanted him to be able to play fantasy basketball with a real team, so there Jim is.

It's not nepotism if you're qualified. Jeanie worked her way up. Others have worked their way up, or shown their aptitude in running other companies.



Except that he's not really running the team, is he? Jeanie is. She is following her father's footsteps. Jim is actually in the position that was once held by Jerry West. If he were qualified to do Jeanie's job, as Dr Buss was, then he'd have the option to take both titles, as Dr Buss did for a while after West left.

Jim is not the owner. He's AN owner. Jeanie has all the titles and responsibilities of "the" owner. Again, Jim just gets to play fantasy basketball with a real team.

business women of the year, she sure as hell gets my vote!!!

lakers squad
03-21-2014, 05:53 AM
Well if its just about front office personnel and we took the names out of it, who would you trust?

A- A tandem that has spent over 40 combined years under the best basketball owner, and one of the best GM's in Jerry West. Who have been behind player personal acquisitions for 5 championships. Have traded for Pau Gasol, Chris Paul, Dwight Howard. Drafted Andrew Bynum, and Marc Gasol in the second round.

B- First day on the job.

what a lot of people don't know is the lakers did not want to include Gasol in on the trade...but jerry west insisted on him being included in on the deal!!!

lakers squad
03-21-2014, 06:38 AM
another player the lakers might offer the poison pill to is Isaiah Thomas 2014/15 5.25mil 15/16 5.25 16/17 15mil 17/18 opt. 14.1mil

lol, please
03-21-2014, 01:29 PM
what a lot of people don't know is the lakers did not want to include Gasol in on the trade...but jerry west insisted on him being included in on the deal!!!

:faint:

MickeyMgl
03-21-2014, 05:24 PM
Who would have been better? Under Rudy they were doing pretty good considering the lack of talent and a completely new roster full of guys who had never played with each other. Nobody knew he would retire from coaching mid season. But before he did, they were a 6 seed in a very tough west. Who would have been a better option at the time over a two time champ? But once again, Mitch? Dr. Buss? They had no say right?

I wasn't against the hire at the time. Nor was I against the D'Antoni hire at the time. (Brown was an obvious bad choice.) Still, a front office has to be held responsible for results, right? Up close, Laker fans got to see the warts of both these coaches. Rudy's reliance on isolation sets had me actually thinking back to his Houston teams, and realizing how much they relied on an unimaginative offense of Hakeem inside, four shooters at the arc. Lather, rinse, repeat. In Los Angeles, it was isolate Kobe right, isolate Kobe left, four other guys stand out of the way. Lather, rinse, repeat. Then quit.

Sorry, but that's on Jim. Including the fat 5-year contract they had to pay for half a season of coaching. Naturally, that's the budget for a coach when you only look for guys with an established track record. That's not always wrong, but you know, Pat Riley had no experience when he started coaching the Lakers. The difference is, back then, the head of basketball operations had a little bit of instinct about who would make a good coach. Today's Laker front office is left to guess at "Who won somewhere else". That gets expensive, and hurts the wallet even more when you hire lemons like Rudy, Brown, and D'Antoni.



If you were complaining about the [Nash] trade that 4th of July then kudos to you. But I don't remember anyone having a bad thing to say about it when it happened. Hindsight is 20/20. Was it a bad deal in retrospect? Of course. But you cant predict injuries. Should the Spurs cut Duncan? He is the same age as Nash was when we got him. Making more money too. Should the Spurs kick themselves if Tim gets hurt and say we were dumb to keep him on the court?

I wouldn't have "predicted" that Nash was going to be injured, but it was sure as heck a high probability for a player with his age and history.

They gambled. They lost. On Nash. On Howard. On D'Antoni. On Brown. On Rudy. On CP3. On Bynum. Hindsight is perfectly appropriate in judging results. Things just keep "not working out" for this Laker front office, don't they?




Well let me spell it out then. Dr. Buss was the owner of the Lakers undeniably.

All the difference in the world. Jerry Buss had accumulated a great deal of equity with Laker fans, and he was visible and accountable. Jim is not. Jeanie is visible and represents the team well, but how can she account for personnel moves when she is not in the loop and has no voice on those decisions? Instead, Mitch covers for him, Jerry covered for him, and Jeanie covers for him as best she can.



Kobe wanted a trade not because anyone "threw him under the bus" but because he said Jerry Buss lied to him when he said he could build a contender.

This is incorrect. Bryant didn't go off until Mark Heisler quoted a Laker insider after losing to Phoenix in ’07, saying that this is what Kobe wanted and that he had forced Shaq out. The general consensus has been that it was Jim, and when Kobe went on that tirade, there was no disputing that Jim had taken over the bulk of Jerry’s duties by then, and was the one making decisions that seemed contrary to Kobe’s goal of winning now – drafting a project, refusing to trade that project, etc. Jerry was in the background, and only came back in to put out that fire.

mightybosstone
03-21-2014, 05:46 PM
another player the lakers might offer the poison pill to is Isaiah Thomas 2014/15 5.25mil 15/16 5.25 16/17 15mil 17/18 opt. 14.1mil

Eric Bledsoe will be the 1st one offered the poison pill 2014/15 4.5 mil. 2015/16 4.5 mil. 2016/17 14.5 mil, think the suns will match???

To be honest, I don't think either player would take that contract. When Morey and the Rockets offered those contracts to Lin and Asik, those guys were unproven players getting overpaid based on potential. But you're suggesting the Lakers could do the same thing with two players who are already really good guards. If I'm Sacramento and Phoenix, I would gladly match and be willing to pay more than that.

lol, please
03-22-2014, 11:45 AM
nullgood post, thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts.

ldawg
03-22-2014, 01:35 PM
It will take the Lakers a while to be true contenders again. They are trying to sell History unfortunately no one at the helm has been part of their winning culture Not Jim not Mike. That has been uprooted. Same name different culture different structure. Lakers look like any other team trying to find their way. This is a team now with a ?? foundation from Owner to coach to system to players. They are all unproven with exception to Mitch, Kobe, Pau and Kurt. Lakers don't have a solid plan in place they are just in hope. Hoping for a solid draft choice hoping someone like Love save them. If any of those hopes don't pan out they are lost at sea. Now that they don't have a solid system in place even if they do get good players what kind of culture will they have molding that player or players. who teach them what it takes to win take their game to another level? Just picture Kevin love on the Lakers What their makes him better. This is why Howard left the winning culture was gone they are now a organization of ??. What Lakers have going for them is Location, Warm weather, big market, and $$.

lol, please
03-22-2014, 02:31 PM
It will take the Lakers a while to be true contenders again. They are trying to sell History unfortunately no one at the helm has been part of their winning culture Not Jim not Mike. That has been uprooted. Same name different culture different structure. Lakers look like any other team trying to find their way. This is a team now with a ?? foundation from Owner to coach to system to players. They are all unproven with exception to Mitch, Kobe, Pau and Kurt. Lakers don't have a solid plan in place they are just in hope. Hoping for a solid draft choice hoping someone like Love save them. If any of those hopes don't pan out they are lost at sea. Now that they don't have a solid system in place even if they do get good players what kind of culture will they have molding that player or players. who teach them what it takes to win take their game to another level? Just picture Kevin love on the Lakers What their makes him better. This is why Howard left the winning culture was gone they are now a organization of ??. What Lakers have going for them is Location, Warm weather, big market, and $$.I agree with this post, the lakers fans don't see it that way though.

Cracka2HI!
03-22-2014, 07:00 PM
It depends. The Knicks have the possibility of turning it around quickly with Melo and Phil. If that doesn't work out the Lakers have a lottery pick in a deep draft so maybe that would give them a leg up. Neither team is in a good situation but the Laker front office has a lot to prove, so the Knicks seem more likely.

MickeyMgl
03-23-2014, 04:22 AM
It will take the Lakers a while to be true contenders again. They are trying to sell History unfortunately no one at the helm has been part of their winning culture Not Jim not Mike. That has been uprooted. Same name different culture different structure. Lakers look like any other team trying to find their way. This is a team now with a ?? foundation from Owner to coach to system to players. They are all unproven with exception to Mitch, Kobe, Pau and Kurt. Lakers don't have a solid plan in place they are just in hope. Hoping for a solid draft choice hoping someone like Love save them. If any of those hopes don't pan out they are lost at sea. Now that they don't have a solid system in place even if they do get good players what kind of culture will they have molding that player or players. who teach them what it takes to win take their game to another level? Just picture Kevin love on the Lakers What their makes him better. This is why Howard left the winning culture was gone they are now a organization of ??. What Lakers have going for them is Location, Warm weather, big market, and $$.

Not often I can agree with a post word for word. I can't even find something to nitpick.