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CavaliersFTW
03-18-2014, 04:00 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eNdapKU494

Here's every single one of his NBA career baskets captured on film that I've found to date, and sorted into a few basic categories. Keep in mind I counted that only about 2.3% of his career field goals exists on film (a random ~335 NBA baskets, out of his 14,178 regular season, playoff, and all star field goals).

Physical Tools and Athleticism intro (starts at 0:20)
Left block scoring ~87 NBA FGM on film (starts at 5:23)
Right block scoring ~67 NBA FGM on film (starts at 11:27)
Lobs - Deep catches - Transition ~59 NBA FGM on film (starts at 17:58)
Two Person Game ~52 NBA FGM on film (starts at 22:28)
Offensive Rebounding ~70 NBA FGM on film (starts at 27:08)

Another way of looking at it is that approximately 28 random games-worth of Wilt's baskets exists on film. Many random baskets he made came from documentaries and short film reels rather than actual broadcasts of that time. As such not all of the plays contain enough footage to reveal the entire play unfold but I've done my best to reveal as much of the plays as possible and sort them accordingly.

:cheers:

DreamShaker
03-18-2014, 04:15 PM
Sweet!!! Great job, once again!!!

NoahH
03-18-2014, 04:33 PM
Man Wilt was as athletic as LeBron and as jacked as Dwight

CavaliersFTW
03-18-2014, 04:34 PM
Man Wilt was as athletic as LeBron and as jacked as Dwight

and taller than Shaq

NoahH
03-18-2014, 04:36 PM
and taller than Shaq

You could tell by seeing Shaq and Wilt together than Wilt was just an unreal physical specimen. So much length etc and taller yup

Hawkeye15
03-18-2014, 04:58 PM
He might be the best athlete to ever play sports. He is so freaking big and strong, and some of those transition runs he had, he is literally as fast as anyone I have seen.

Freak of nature. I mean, he shoved Artis Gilmore like 5 feet with a push off. Artis Gilmore!

Hawkeye15
03-18-2014, 04:59 PM
and taller than Shaq

as a 50 year old. By then, he had probably lost an inch from his playing days.

abe_froman
03-18-2014, 05:14 PM
He might be the best athlete to ever play sports.
this.

dude was such a freak of nature,really nothing he couldnt do

savvy1803
03-18-2014, 05:26 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eNdapKU494

Here's every single one of his NBA career baskets captured on film that I've found to date, and sorted into a few basic categories. Keep in mind I counted that only about 2.3% of his career field goals exists on film (a random ~335 NBA baskets, out of his 14,178 regular season, playoff, and all star field goals).

Physical Tools and Athleticism intro (starts at 0:20)
Left block scoring ~87 NBA FGM on film (starts at 5:23)
Right block scoring ~67 NBA FGM on film (starts at 11:27)
Lobs - Deep catches - Transition ~59 NBA FGM on film (starts at 17:58)
Two Person Game ~52 NBA FGM on film (starts at 22:28)
Offensive Rebounding ~70 NBA FGM on film (starts at 27:08)

Another way of looking at it is that approximately 28 random games-worth of Wilt's baskets exists on film. Many random baskets he made came from documentaries and short film reels rather than actual broadcasts of that time. As such not all of the plays contain enough footage to reveal the entire play unfold but I've done my best to reveal as much of the plays as possible and sort them accordingly.

:cheers:
Great addition and thank you .

Hawkeye15
03-18-2014, 05:40 PM
this.

dude was such a freak of nature,really nothing he couldnt do

did you see him do the triple jump and high jump? Imagine if he were doing that today with proper technique. Just crazy how big, strong, fast, and agile he was.

The only player ever who could pick up a 300 pound man and move him over 5 feet, then outrun your PG to the other end.

nastynice
03-18-2014, 05:49 PM
whoa, that is insane. I love watching some of these old school guys videos, I never got to see them. I grew up watching the jordan era.

How is this guy not consistently in the goat discussion? He's just completely abusing people. 7 foot 280 lb people.

abe_froman
03-18-2014, 05:54 PM
did you see him do the triple jump and high jump? Imagine if he were doing that today with proper technique. Just crazy how big, strong, fast, and agile he was.

The only player ever who could pick up a 300 pound man and move him over 5 feet, then outrun your PG to the other end.
i've seen an old video of it

whoa, that is insane. I love watching some of these old school guys videos, I never got to see them. I grew up watching the jordan era.

How is this guy not consistently in the goat discussion? He's just completely abusing people. 7 foot 280 lb people.
he is,but the big knock on him is/was his mentality(unwillingness to change his game/play within the team when he was younger,shrink in the big moments/being abit soft at times,stat padder,ect.),some of it is valid but has gotten way overblown

Chronz
03-18-2014, 06:08 PM
As good of a case for the goat as anyone not named Jordan, possibly including mj depending on what you value

Hawkeye15
03-18-2014, 06:10 PM
whoa, that is insane. I love watching some of these old school guys videos, I never got to see them. I grew up watching the jordan era.

How is this guy not consistently in the goat discussion? He's just completely abusing people. 7 foot 280 lb people.

as abe pointed out, it was that he wasn't always the easiest guy to play with, and he did shrink at times in huge games.

But I have him #3 on my list, just because of how dominant he was.

Hawkeye15
03-18-2014, 06:11 PM
As good of a case for the goat as anyone not named Jordan, possibly including mj depending on what you value

as far as sheer dominance of the sport, he has as good a case as anyone, I agree.

DillyDill
03-18-2014, 06:26 PM
as abe pointed out, it was that he wasn't always the easiest guy to play with, and he did shrink at times in huge games.

But I have him #3 on my list, just because of how dominant he was.

I Got:

1.MJ
2.Wilt

Who's your 2?

tredigs
03-18-2014, 06:27 PM
The basketball community owes you a debt of gratitude for the time/effort/skill that has gone into making these compilations man. This was a fantastic addition!!

Hawkeye15
03-18-2014, 06:27 PM
I Got:

1.MJ
2.Wilt

Who's your 2?

KAJ is my #2. Wilt holding steady at #3. After that, I start flipping them depending on mood, but those 3 are set for me, unless LeBron keeps piling up trophies and accolades possibly.

Hawkeye15
03-18-2014, 06:28 PM
The basketball community owes you a debt of gratitude for the time/effort/skill that has gone into making these compilations man. This was a fantastic addition!!

yeah, it really was. When I saw it was over 20 minutes, I said, "ugh". Ended up watching every minute.

DillyDill
03-18-2014, 06:30 PM
KAJ is my #2. Wilt holding steady at #3. After that, I start flipping them depending on mood, but those 3 are set for me, unless LeBron keeps piling up trophies and accolades possibly.

I get you with the mood swings, but no more flipping set wilt at 2 permanently. His 50 point season did it for me that's video game like crrrazzzzzyyy

abe_froman
03-18-2014, 06:35 PM
KAJ is my #2. Wilt holding steady at #3. After that, I start flipping them depending on mood, but those 3 are set for me, unless LeBron keeps piling up trophies and accolades possibly.
number 1 is really the only one i have set ,i flip everyone depending on my mood ,but right now i have wilt at number 2

its why i like the pyramid,everyone on tiers,because so many guys are so close together that its really arbitrary with some of the calls of what order

Hawkeye15
03-18-2014, 06:37 PM
I get you with the mood swings, but no more flipping set wilt at 2 permanently. His 50 point season did it for me that's video game like crrrazzzzzyyy

yeah, but I have touched on that before. The pace, his minutes (which are insane), etc really need to be brought up.

DillyDill
03-18-2014, 06:38 PM
number 1 is really the only one i have set ,i flip everyone depending on my mood ,but right now i have wilt at number 2

"My Man"- Denzel Voice

Chronz
03-18-2014, 06:55 PM
as far as sheer dominance of the sport, he has as good a case as anyone, I agree.
Depends on what you value for sure. I meant as overall basketball players, can build entirely different teams around him. Adapted and changed his game so often, in part i think because the game had bio idea how to best utilize him yet

asandhu23
03-18-2014, 09:22 PM
I would love to see the Wilt Chamberlain college dunking highlights where opponents who had never seen him play were dumbfounded by his vertical.

Hawkeye15
03-18-2014, 09:28 PM
I would love to see the Wilt Chamberlain college dunking highlights where opponents who had never seen him play were dumbfounded by his vertical.

I would imagine the other team sitting there like spectators in warm ups haha

"who the eff is that guy?"

mngopher35
03-18-2014, 09:41 PM
The basketball community owes you a debt of gratitude for the time/effort/skill that has gone into making these compilations man. This was a fantastic addition!!

This. Thanks for sharing.

CavaliersFTW
03-18-2014, 10:05 PM
I would love to see the Wilt Chamberlain college dunking highlights where opponents who had never seen him play were dumbfounded by his vertical.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zukRbA3y0qo

Jeffy25
03-19-2014, 01:04 AM
wow, good job


He was a giant compared to everyone else. It would be like having a 7'10, athletic center today. Just not fair

CavaliersFTW
03-19-2014, 01:13 AM
how would it be like having a 7'10 center today? You realize the players he's playing against are the same size as the players today right?

Hawkeye15
03-19-2014, 05:15 AM
how would it be like having a 7'10 center today? You realize the players he's playing against are the same size as the players today right?


No, they aren't. The height difference was not too bad, but the strength and athleticism of players today takes a dump on his era.

That being said, if Wilt had the same nutrition and training methods of the modern players, he would still rip the league a new one.

Chronz
03-19-2014, 12:24 PM
wow, good job


He was a giant compared to everyone else. It would be like having a 7'10, athletic center today. Just not fair

Wat?

Chronz
03-19-2014, 12:26 PM
No, they aren't. The height difference was not too bad, but the strength and athleticism of players today takes a dump on his era.

That being said, if Wilt had the same nutrition and training methods of the modern players, he would still rip the league a new one.

I dont see anyone taking a dump on anyone. Really sounds like you guys exaggerate **** to the point of hyperbole .

MonroeFAN
03-19-2014, 01:07 PM
170 lb tricep extensions... shia

MonroeFAN
03-19-2014, 01:08 PM
wow, good job


He was a giant compared to everyone else. It would be like having a 7'10, athletic center today. Just not fair

You are a crappy moderator.

CavaliersFTW
03-19-2014, 01:42 PM
No, they aren't. The height difference was not too bad, but the strength and athleticism of players today takes a dump on his era.

That being said, if Wilt had the same nutrition and training methods of the modern players, he would still rip the league a new one.

A height difference by all bodies of evidence is non-existent, not merely 'not too bad', in fact the tallest player he's playing against in that footage is Kareem Abdul-Jabbar who at 7-1 and 7/8ths is more than half an inch taller than the tallest player in the league today (Hasheem Thabeet, who is 7-1 and 1/4) and Kareem is not the tallest player Wilt went up against (just the tallest captured on film). Kareem is also visibly much more athletic than any player over 7 foot in the league today by significant margin, nobody in that class of size moves like he did in the league right now. And the strong bodied players like Wes Unseld, Bob Lanier, Willis Reed, and Nate Thurmond were fairing no better against Wilt. And how many centers today are more athletic than Bill Russell, have you seen footage of a young Bill Russell? Who are these giant super athletes you speak of playing today that make Wilt's competition seem insignificant? Be specific.

Hawkeye15
03-19-2014, 01:44 PM
I dont see anyone taking a dump on anyone. Really sounds like you guys exaggerate **** to the point of hyperbole .

He was just a lot bigger and stronger than everyone. He would still be today with modern training methods at his disposal, but to act like the league isn't more athletic now is not true. Same goes for nearly every sport that has a heavy does of physicality.

Hawkeye15
03-19-2014, 01:48 PM
A height difference by all bodies of evidence is non-existent, not merely 'not too bad', in fact the tallest player he's playing against in that footage is Kareem Abdul-Jabbar who at 7-1 and 7/8ths is more than half an inch taller than the tallest player in the league today (Hasheem Thabeet, who is 7-1 and 1/4) and Kareem is not the tallest player Wilt went up against (just the tallest captured on film). Kareem is also visibly much more athletic than any player over 7 foot in the league today by significant margin, nobody in that class of size moves like he did in the league right now. And the strong bodied players like Wes Unseld, Bob Lanier, Willis Reed, and Nate Thurmond were fairing no better against Wilt. And how many centers today are more athletic than Bill Russell, have you seen footage of a young Bill Russell? Who are these giant super athletes you speak of playing today that make Wilt's competition seem insignificant? Be specific.

oh Wilt would dominate the center position today, because the traditional center has nearly died. Hell, the only man strong enough to not get run over by him might be Pekovic, who can't defend anyways.

The league as a whole is more athletic. But the new era of floor spacing and attacking off the bounce have turned the league into much more of a wing dominated league with even the best bigs able to play outside if they need to.

No matter what, Wilt would dominate any era he was in. Maybe more so now, because we would know how to use him better. But as a whole, the league is more athletic now. Kids training on specific areas of athletic ability from an early age, better nutrition and training methods, and the natural impact of humans being taller and heavier now all factor in.

CavaliersFTW
03-19-2014, 01:51 PM
He was just a lot bigger and stronger than everyone. He would still be today with modern training methods at his disposal, but to act like the league isn't more athletic now is not true. Same goes for nearly every sport that has a heavy does of physicality.

Do you understand all of the specific underlying reasons as to why the league is stated, and viewed to be 'more athletic' today? I can break some of the important reasons why down if you'd like. They have little to nothing to do with who his center competition would be today and how athletic these centers would be, the center position today has atrophied compared to the centers he was facing then, not gotten better or more athletic. The general crop of centers today is worse than the crop Wilt played against, he'd man handle the big guys playing right now.

CavaliersFTW
03-19-2014, 01:58 PM
oh Wilt would dominate the center position today, because the traditional center has nearly died. Hell, the only man strong enough to not get run over by him might be Pekovic, who can't defend anyways.

The league as a whole is more athletic. But the new era of floor spacing and attacking off the bounce have turned the league into much more of a wing dominated league with even the best bigs able to play outside if they need to.

No matter what, Wilt would dominate any era he was in. Maybe more so now, because we would know how to use him better. But as a whole, the league is more athletic now. Kids training on specific areas of athletic ability from an early age, better nutrition and training methods, and the natural impact of humans being taller and heavier now all factor in.
Okay well you seem to know more about why the league has been transformed into an 'athletic' one (spacing, emphasis on driving from 40 feet out, slack ball handling rules, etc all add up to a league that showcases drives and leaps). The league is not taller now though, it is only listed taller by about an inch because list heights became exaggerated some time after the ABA and NBA rivalry began inflating player stock. They are heavier today this is true, but this is because of lifting weights at the gym not because of some sort of inherent biological edge. In other words, the same physiological gap that separated Wilt from the guys he went up against appears as if it would exist today given the body of evidence. I can show you player measurements of guys from his era, his own measurements, and measurements of players today - everything falls in line, outside of him. He's an anomaly by size alone then, and now. Add too it his athleticism and coordination and it's clear why he was in such a class of his own. Closest player that came to him physically was Shaq, and we know how dominant Shaq was in modern basketball.

beyourself
03-19-2014, 02:01 PM
Once you get over a certain height around like 6'11" all these guys try to minimize their height. Where it's the opposite for the "smaller" guys.

Jordan was really only 6'4", but he was listed at 6'6" to increase the aura and perception of dominance. The shorter guys also like listing their height as they are in their shoes.

Guys like Garnett, Wilt, Walton, Shaq, KAJ, etc. All this huge monsters are usually no taller than their listed heights. I'd say they are more than likely taller than their listed heights. And they love to go by their barefoot heights. Garnett is a 7 footer, he just is. Shaq was 7'1" barefoot, minimum. In shoes he's probably closer to 7'3". KAJ was actually probably closer to 7'4" than his listed height of 7'2".

I think they do it because they want to make it seem like it's some skill instead of just size and athleticism. But Wilt was every bit as massive as these modern guys. He would have been the best Center in the league today.

Hawkeye15
03-19-2014, 02:02 PM
Do you understand all of the specific underlying reasons as to why the league is stated, and viewed to be 'more athletic' today? I can break some of the important reasons why down if you'd like. They have little to nothing to do with who his center competition would be today and how athletic these centers would be, the center position today has atrophied compared to the centers he was facing then, not gotten better or more athletic. The general crop of centers today is worse than the crop Wilt played against, he'd man handle the big guys playing right now.

I know why people are bigger and stronger now.

And yes, Wilt would kill today's centers most likely. We have some good defensive centers, but nothing that would impede him to the point where he wouldn't still be a league MVP candidate. Team defense is obviously much better now, but to counter that, he would be used in a much more intelligent way than back then.

Hawkeye15
03-19-2014, 02:04 PM
Okay well you seem to know more about why the league has been transformed into an 'athletic' one (spacing, emphasis on driving from 40 feet out, slack ball handling rules, etc all add up to a league that showcases drives and leaps). The league is not taller now though, it is only listed taller by about an inch because list heights became exaggerated some time after the ABA and NBA rivalry began inflating player stock. They are heavier today this is true, but this is because of lifting weights at the gym not because of some sort of inherent biological edge. In other words, the same physiological gap that separated Wilt from the guys he went up against appears as if it would exist today given the body of evidence. I can show you player measurements of guys from his era, his own measurements, and measurements of players today - everything falls in line, outside of him. He's an anomaly by size alone then, and now. Add too it his athleticism and coordination and it's clear why he was in such a class of his own. Closest player that came to him physically was Shaq, and we know how dominant Shaq was in modern basketball.

right, and as I stated, giving Wilt modern nutrition and training methods, and the man is even stronger.

Chronz
03-19-2014, 02:05 PM
He was just a lot bigger and stronger than everyone. He would still be today with modern training methods at his disposal, but to act like the league isn't more athletic now is not true. Same goes for nearly every sport that has a heavy does of physicality.

Where did I "Act" that way? Again, my complaint was that you exaggerate to the point of hyperbole. Nobody is taking a dump on anyone, and the height difference you cited was undersold, just my opinion. Heavy dose of physicality? Not sure what you're getting at here.

Hawkeye15
03-19-2014, 02:36 PM
Where did I "Act" that way? Again, my complaint was that you exaggerate to the point of hyperbole. Nobody is taking a dump on anyone, and the height difference you cited was undersold, just my opinion. Heavy dose of physicality? Not sure what you're getting at here.

People are bigger and stronger now. There is obviously a limit to which humans can be, meaning, if a guy is 8' tall, that probably won't help him in sports, because the rest of the traits are going to suffer. So sure, the height in the NBA has only gained a small margin. But the strength and speed of the athletes today is higher. Because of various reasons. And I do think that an athlete like Wilt would be even faster and stronger now, because he was a total outlier to the athletic world then, and would be now.

But he would be facing more athletic defenses/offenses now. Would he still thrive? Maybe more so. Not sure who pointed it out, maybe it was you, but they didn't even know how to really utilize him during the majority of his career, because nobody else had ever come along like him.

What's funny is he would probably be listed at 7'3", 315 lbs now haha.

dalton749
03-19-2014, 03:39 PM
he would probably average 30/15 today playing 39mpg and shooting 60%

CavaliersFTW
03-19-2014, 03:44 PM
Once you get over a certain height around like 6'11" all these guys try to minimize their height. Where it's the opposite for the "smaller" guys.

Jordan was really only 6'4", but he was listed at 6'6" to increase the aura and perception of dominance. The shorter guys also like listing their height as they are in their shoes.

Guys like Garnett, Wilt, Walton, Shaq, KAJ, etc. All this huge monsters are usually no taller than their listed heights. I'd say they are more than likely taller than their listed heights. And they love to go by their barefoot heights. Garnett is a 7 footer, he just is. Shaq was 7'1" barefoot, minimum. In shoes he's probably closer to 7'3". KAJ was actually probably closer to 7'4" than his listed height of 7'2".

I think they do it because they want to make it seem like it's some skill instead of just size and athleticism. But Wilt was every bit as massive as these modern guys. He would have been the best Center in the league today.
This is not a true assumption, regardless of size or position anyone post mid-70's who does not inflate their height represents an exception to the general rule not an example of an opposite trend.

David Robinson was listed 7-1 235 by team USA in 1988, the Olympic trainers put him under the tape and he was 7-0 and 226. Michael Jordan actually was 6-4 and 7/8ths not just 6-4. Shaq was 7-0 and 7/8ths of an inch tall. He listed 7-1 but as I stated he's an exception to the rule not an example of it. By the way the reason he looks so much shorter than Wilt has to do with the height of their shoulders, Shaq's height came from a long head/neck, Wilt was about a 1/4" taller to the top of his head but his very tall shoulders due to his short head/neck gave him the illusion of being 2 or 3 inches taller than Shaq, or just about any other "7 footer" for that matter. Jabbar was a confirmed 7-1 and 7/8ths without shoes. He is not 7-4. People thought he was because of the aforementioned rampant exaggeration of the league's listed height of players around him. Guys like Darryl Dawkins were listing 6-11 despite actually being only 6-9, much like Dwight Howard. Ralph Sampson listed a ridiculous 7-4 despite actually being about 7-1. Being that Kareem was towering over guys listed at his height or standing eye to eye with guys listed 7-4 you can see where the erroneous conclusion could come about that he was 'actually 7-4' but he was just one of the few guys honest about his height. The same problem exists today. One guy who is honest about his height (Kevin Durant, listed 6-9, measured 6-9) throws off the whole charade and everyone assumes HE'S the one being dishonest about his height when in actuality it's 95% of the league around him. Even Zydrunas Ilgauskus wasn't listed his honest height, he was 7-2, he listed 7-3. Same with the tallest active player playing today, Hasheem Thabeet, who is 7-1 and 1/4 inches tall, he lists at 7-3. Big guys don't tend to be any more honest about their actual height than little guys. Spencer Hawes is 6-10.5 and lists a ridiculous 7-1. As stated any example of players that list their height these days are exceptions to the trend not examples of a different pattern and this is regardless of position or size. Look at draftexpress.com/measurements and you'll see.

I've tracked down rare measurement data of players back into the late 1950's, from college trainers, old news articles etc. What I observe is that prior to the mid 1970's players were at one point were not exaggerating their heights like they do today. I can only assume that because contracts and player value went up, so did their inclination to sort of fudge the list info and be known as 'bigger' than they really are, because the game of drafting and marketing began to have a lot more at stake.

beyourself
03-19-2014, 03:50 PM
This is not a true assumption, regardless of size or position anyone post mid-70's who does not inflate their height represents an exception to the general rule not an example of an opposite trend.

David Robinson was listed 7-1 235 by team USA in 1988, the Olympic trainers put him under the tape and he was 7-0 and 226. Michael Jordan actually was 6-4 and 7/8ths not just 6-4. Shaq was 7-0 and 7/8ths of an inch tall. He listed 7-1 but as I stated he's an exception to the rule not an example of it. By the way the reason he looks so much shorter than Wilt has to do with the height of their shoulders, Shaq's height came from a long head/neck, Wilt was about a 1/4" taller to the top of his head but his very tall shoulders due to his short head/neck gave him the illusion of being 2 or 3 inches taller than Shaq, or just about any other "7 footer" for that matter. Jabbar was a confirmed 7-1 and 7/8ths without shoes. He is not 7-4. People thought he was because of the aforementioned rampant exaggeration of the league's listed height of players around him. Guys like Darryl Dawkins were listing 6-11 despite actually being only 6-9, much like Dwight Howard. Ralph Sampson listed a ridiculous 7-4 despite actually being about 7-1. Being that Kareem was towering over guys listed at his height or standing eye to eye with guys listed 7-4 you can see where the erroneous conclusion could come about that he was 'actually 7-4' but he was just one of the few guys honest about his height. The same problem exists today. One guy who is honest about his height (Kevin Durant, listed 6-9, measured 6-9) throws off the whole charade and everyone assumes HE'S the one being dishonest about his height when in actuality it's 95% of the league around him. Even Zydrunas Ilgauskus wasn't listed his honest height, he was 7-2, he listed 7-3. Same with the tallest active player playing today, Hasheem Thabeet, who is 7-1 and 1/4 inches tall, he lists at 7-3. Big guys don't tend to be any more honest about their actual height than little guys. Spencer Hawes is 6-10.5 and lists a ridiculous 7-1. As stated any example of players that list their height these days are exceptions to the trend not examples of a different pattern and this is regardless of position or size. Look at draftexpress.com/measurements and you'll see.

I've tracked down rare measurement data of players back into the late 1950's, from college trainers, old news articles etc. What I observe is that prior to the mid 1970's players were at one point were not exaggerating their heights like they do today. I can only assume that because contracts and player value went up, so did their inclination to sort of fudge the list info and be known as 'bigger' than they really are, because the game of drafting and marketing began to have a lot more at stake.

Great post. That makes sense.

nastynice
03-19-2014, 04:40 PM
And how many centers today are more athletic than Bill Russell, have you seen footage of a young Bill Russell? Who are these giant super athletes you speak of playing today that make Wilt's competition seem insignificant? Be specific.

This is another guy before my time, I saw a few highlights of his on youtube. Man, another guy I wonder how he isn't consistantly in the goat discussion. The guy would block a center going for a layup, control the ball, outrun everyone to the other end of the court, and either dish it for the easy bucket or just dunk it himself over the other team's center. That's some pretty amazing **** right there.

As far as athleticism, I agree with hawkeye. I think if you look at the physical ability of players now, they are higher than players from decades ago. I mean even no namers have incredible athleticism now days. Well, I've only been watching nba for 25 yrs, so I don't have first hand experience, but that sure is the way it seems when looking at highlights and stuff from decades ago.

ThuglifeJ
03-20-2014, 12:47 AM
I disagree with the whole "Wilt would man handle Shaq" "Shaq would be a ragdoll compared to Wilt". I mean if you take the ratio of how many years ahead Wilt was then fine, but if you're talking as is? Shaq would look every bit as much of a monster in Wilt's time as he did in the late 90s/2000s.. Shaq pulled down backboards, shattered glass and was basically a heavier Wilt.

I watched this entire video...and I always put Wilt in my top 5 (2nd), but there's no way Shaq couldn't take him.


But anyways..what's crazy to look at is Wilt's stats...even if you go by per 36 minutes, he still has monster numbers. I think Shaq would be the same if he took a time machine to the past to play.

It's hard to compare Shaq, Wilt, KAJ, Hakeem...as they all played differently.. they all were dominant in their own ways though.

asandhu23
03-20-2014, 12:59 AM
I disagree with the whole "Wilt would man handle Shaq" "Shaq would be a ragdoll compared to Wilt". I mean if you take the ratio of how many years ahead Wilt was then fine, but if you're talking as is? Shaq would look every bit as much of a monster in Wilt's time as he did in the late 90s/2000s.. Shaq pulled down backboards, shattered glass and was basically a heavier Wilt.

I watched this entire video...and I always put Wilt in my top 5 (2nd), but there's no way Shaq couldn't take him.


But anyways..what's crazy to look at is Wilt's stats...even if you go by per 36 minutes, he still has monster numbers. I think Shaq would be the same if he took a time machine to the past to play.

It's hard to compare Shaq, Wilt, KAJ, Hakeem...as they all played differently.. they all were dominant in their own ways though.

I doubt it. That era required all players players running back and forth the whole game. The game's slowed a lot since that time.

there's an interview where Bill and Wilt were asked how they would stop Shaq. Bill said he would tire him out.

torocan
03-20-2014, 09:25 AM
I disagree with the whole "Wilt would man handle Shaq" "Shaq would be a ragdoll compared to Wilt". I mean if you take the ratio of how many years ahead Wilt was then fine, but if you're talking as is? Shaq would look every bit as much of a monster in Wilt's time as he did in the late 90s/2000s.. Shaq pulled down backboards, shattered glass and was basically a heavier Wilt.

I watched this entire video...and I always put Wilt in my top 5 (2nd), but there's no way Shaq couldn't take him.


But anyways..what's crazy to look at is Wilt's stats...even if you go by per 36 minutes, he still has monster numbers. I think Shaq would be the same if he took a time machine to the past to play.

It's hard to compare Shaq, Wilt, KAJ, Hakeem...as they all played differently.. they all were dominant in their own ways though.

Personally I think Wilt would beat Shaq for a few simple reasons.

Wilt is MUCH quicker. He was a track runner. Wilt also was a better shooter. Fade away jump shots, finger rolls from multiple angles, and ability to score at distance from both blocks.

You can debate how they'd do against each other in terms of strength in the post, but the simple truth is Wilt has a higher vertical and can block anything resembling a jump shot/hook that Shaq would want to put up, and Shaq can't defend Wilt's fade away and ambidextrous finger rolls.

And that's without even factoring in how much modern training and nutrition would impact Wilt. He was already a workhorse in terms of his ability to play at a high level for 48 mpg.

Chronz
03-20-2014, 09:54 AM
We're just not seeing eye to eye on this one Hawk, dont feel the need to rehash this tireless debate right now, maybe later.



Personally I think Wilt would beat Shaq for a few simple reasons.

Wilt is MUCH quicker. He was a track runner. Wilt also was a better shooter. Fade away jump shots, finger rolls from multiple angles, and ability to score at distance from both blocks.
They both have their strengths and weaknesses but those strengths are clearer if you know which version of Wilt/Shaq you are comparing. Young Wilt was a better shooter, older Wilt was stronger in the post and relied less on fadeaways and such.


You can debate how they'd do against each other in terms of strength in the post, but the simple truth is Wilt has a higher vertical and can block anything resembling a jump shot/hook that Shaq would want to put up, and Shaq can't defend Wilt's fade away and ambidextrous finger rolls.
Shaq was longer, with a wider lower base, so even if Wilt is stronger (which he probably is if you hear from former athletes about the comparison) hes not built to bang like Shaq is. Wilt taking a fadeaway is what you wanted as a defender, he might make some but he wasn't going to be an efficient scoring machine if you restricted him to that shot. The post battle would determine that. It would be an epic battle thats for sure.


And that's without even factoring in how much modern training and nutrition would impact Wilt. He was already a workhorse in terms of his ability to play at a high level for 48 mpg.

Bingo

Chronz
03-20-2014, 10:02 AM
I disagree with the whole "Wilt would man handle Shaq" "Shaq would be a ragdoll compared to Wilt". I mean if you take the ratio of how many years ahead Wilt was then fine, but if you're talking as is? Shaq would look every bit as much of a monster in Wilt's time as he did in the late 90s/2000s.. Shaq pulled down backboards, shattered glass and was basically a heavier Wilt.
Yea I think its hyperbole to speak as if either would manhandle the other, those feats of strength from Shaq are impressive but not as much as what I've heard about Wilt. If you ask former NBA players who played against Wilt and Shaq's contemporaries, such as Robert Parish, he will tell you the strongest player he ever played against was Artis Gilmore. Maybe it was because he never got to see Lakers version of Shaq but if Gilmore was stronger than young Shaq, then Wilt topped them both.



It's hard to compare Shaq, Wilt, KAJ, Hakeem...as they all played differently.. they all were dominant in their own ways though.
True, you know what we can compare though, how those players defended them.

Wilt and Thurmond defended KAJ better than Hakeem ever did, KAJ would admit as much. So if Kareem is having a harder time going against the older generation, it speaks highly of that generations ability to translate into today's game.

ewing
03-20-2014, 10:22 AM
great vid. If Arnold says he is the strongest dude in the gym, he is.

ewing
03-20-2014, 10:29 AM
This is another guy before my time, I saw a few highlights of his on youtube. Man, another guy I wonder how he isn't consistantly in the goat discussion. The guy would block a center going for a layup, control the ball, outrun everyone to the other end of the court, and either dish it for the easy bucket or just dunk it himself over the other team's center. That's some pretty amazing **** right there.

As far as athleticism, I agree with hawkeye. I think if you look at the physical ability of players now, they are higher than players from decades ago. I mean even no namers have incredible athleticism now days. Well, I've only been watching nba for 25 yrs, so I don't have first hand experience, but that sure is the way it seems when looking at highlights and stuff from decades ago.


I think this is where the jump has occurred. Wilt in 1960 was more athletic then anyone in 1960 or 2014. The top level athletics are just that. Put Jessie Owens in a time machine and he an Olympian with or without glutton. On the other hand i don't think the guys filling out your bench used be able do things like Nate or Harrison Barnes. I don't know why that is but the idea that guys today are just so much more athletic is bunk.

torocan
03-20-2014, 10:47 AM
Put Jessie Owens in a time machine and he an Olympian with or without glutton.

On an interesting side note, Jessie Owens time of 10.3s during the Berlin Olympics in 1932 would *STILL* have him as a world class Olympic sprinter. Without the benefits of modern training, nutrition, equipment or tracks, his 10.3s time would STILL have gotten him the #1 time in the 2012 summer Olympics preliminary round, tied for #32 in the 1st round, 23rd in the semi-finals, and 8th place in the Final heat.

http://www.olympic.org/olympic-results/london-2012/athletics/100m-m

Think about that... 80 years later, with advances in medicine, modern nutrition, institutionalized training regimens, and millions of dollars spent on training facilities, and Jesse Owens -- the guy who loaded Freight Cars and repaired Shoes for extra money was STILL on par with the world's greatest sprinters.

I really suspect that people are over-emphasizing the leaps of today's versus yesteryear's athletes. Yes, modern nutrition, workout regimens and medicine helps tremendously, but Elite athletes are elite athletes, no matter how you cut it. Give Wilt today's trainers and development staff, and it's quite possible that Wilt would *still* dominate the NBA.

CavaliersFTW
03-20-2014, 01:17 PM
Shaq was longer, with a wider lower base, so even if Wilt is stronger (which he probably is if you hear from former athletes about the comparison) hes not built to bang like Shaq is. Wilt taking a fadeaway is what you wanted as a defender, he might make some but he wasn't going to be an efficient scoring machine if you restricted him to that shot. The post battle would determine that. It would be an epic battle thats for sure.

Shaq is not longer than Wilt, he has a 1/4 inch less height, an inch less wing span and 3 inches less standing reach that's why Wilt appears taller than him in footage his upper body sits higher up on his body because of the great length of his legs and his relatively short neck and his shoulders look slightly broader than shaqs on top of that. Shaq likely has a more powerful base, that's likely true. Wilt's length, upper body strength, and stamina are the three areas where he would have a physical edge though.

asandhu23
03-20-2014, 01:19 PM
Yea I think its hyperbole to speak as if either would manhandle the other, those feats of strength from Shaq are impressive but not as much as what I've heard about Wilt. If you ask former NBA players who played against Wilt and Shaq's contemporaries, such as Robert Parish, he will tell you the strongest player he ever played against was Artis Gilmore. Maybe it was because he never got to see Lakers version of Shaq but if Gilmore was stronger than young Shaq, then Wilt topped them both.



True, you know what we can compare though, how those players defended them.

Wilt and Thurmond defended KAJ better than Hakeem ever did, KAJ would admit as much. So if Kareem is having a harder time going against the older generation, it speaks highly of that generations ability to translate into today's game.

By the way, Kareem himself says that Wilt was the best player ever. You have to remember that Wilt and Kareem had a major feud back in the day.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Wilt_Chamberlain

Chronz
03-20-2014, 02:54 PM
Shaq is not longer than Wilt, he has a 1/4 inch less height, an inch less wing span and 3 inches less standing reach that's why Wilt appears taller than him in footage his upper body sits higher up on his body because of the great length of his legs and his relatively short neck and his shoulders look slightly broader than shaqs on top of that. Shaq likely has a more powerful base, that's likely true. Wilt's length, upper body strength, and stamina are the three areas where he would have a physical edge though.

I just naturally assumed he was longer, somewhat due to chest size, I do know that Shaq held a record for highest recorded height point according to sports science and I could have sworn he wasn't that special in terms of reach. Standing reach, I see a 2.5 difference by the most favorable Wilt measure.

Any numbers on West, Russ and Thurmond's wingspan/standing reach

ewing
03-20-2014, 02:55 PM
On an interesting side note, Jessie Owens time of 10.3s during the Berlin Olympics in 1932 would *STILL* have him as a world class Olympic sprinter. Without the benefits of modern training, nutrition, equipment or tracks, his 10.3s time would STILL have gotten him the #1 time in the 2012 summer Olympics preliminary round, tied for #32 in the 1st round, 23rd in the semi-finals, and 8th place in the Final heat.

http://www.olympic.org/olympic-results/london-2012/athletics/100m-m

Think about that... 80 years later, with advances in medicine, modern nutrition, institutionalized training regimens, and millions of dollars spent on training facilities, and Jesse Owens -- the guy who loaded Freight Cars and repaired Shoes for extra money was STILL on par with the world's greatest sprinters.

I really suspect that people are over-emphasizing the leaps of today's versus yesteryear's athletes. Yes, modern nutrition, workout regimens and medicine helps tremendously, but Elite athletes are elite athletes, no matter how you cut it. Give Wilt today's trainers and development staff, and it's quite possible that Wilt would *still* dominate the NBA.

If you put young Wilt in a time machine he'd walk on an NBA court and dominate.

abe_froman
03-20-2014, 03:06 PM
Any numbers on West, Russ and Thurmond's wingspan/standing reach
wingspans-
west-about 7'
russell-7-4
nate-about 7-6

from what i've heard/seen

CavaliersFTW
03-20-2014, 03:49 PM
I just naturally assumed he was longer, somewhat due to chest size, I do know that Shaq held a record for highest recorded height point according to sports science and I could have sworn he wasn't that special in terms of reach. Standing reach, I see a 2.5 difference by the most favorable Wilt measure.

Any numbers on West, Russ and Thurmond's wingspan/standing reach
You'd be mistaken to assume he wasn't special on reach, re-watch the video and you'll see Wilt almost doesn't even have to jump to tip in rebounds and dunk. His standing reach is 9-6" in his era's shoe (Chuck Taylors) which if you own a pair of those vs modern basketball shoes knowing how thin those are by comparison that'd put Wilt's standing reach in modern shoes at about 9 feet 7 inches. Shaq's standing reach in modern shoes was 9 feet 5 inches, so your right 2 inches differences not 3 my mistake on that. But still, 9 feet 7 inches is the same reach as Yao Ming, nobody else in recent times has really come close.

Jerry West's wingspan was 6 feet 9 inches, he also stood over 6 feet 4 inches tall without shoes, no where near his way underbilled 6-3 listed height, West would be listed at least 6-5 if he played today most people aren't aware of how tall he actually was. He also came into the league with a maximum reach of 16 inches above the rim and I have footage of him in 1973 at age 35 still touching a mark 14 inches above the rim on the backboard in training camp, so he had good reach and reasonable leaping ability too.

Nate Thurmond's wingspan is completely unknown. I've looked and looked, can't find anything.

Bill Russell's was 7-4 inches and he stood 6-9 and 5/8ths of an inch tall without shoes, about the same height as Deandre Jordan and Andre Drummond, slightly taller than Dwight Howard or Anthony Davis.

I also have Kareem's wingspan, 7 feet 5 inches, and he stood 7-1 and 7/8ths of an inch tall without shoes. Taller than the tallest player playing in the league today, Hasheem Thabeet, who stands 7-1 and 1/4 without shoes.

I've actually got quite a bit of rare measurement data from before the days of 'draftexpress', there's a lot of it out there, with quite a few surprises as to how tall or short, long or heavy certain players were under the tape or on a scale. List info is never really accurate then or now (though prior to the mid 1970's, "height" was generally more likely to follow a without shoes measurement)

slashsnake
03-20-2014, 04:11 PM
Interesting on the heights. I remember back in the day meeting Voshon Lenard. He was listed at 6'4" and I am just a hair under 6'3" and had a couple inches on him easy. He got a little pissed when I asked how tall he really was.

And of course watching 6'8" Barkley stand next to 6'6" Jordan and see Jordan was the taller one always was funny.

ewing
03-20-2014, 04:16 PM
You'd be mistaken to assume he wasn't special on reach, re-watch the video and you'll see Wilt almost doesn't even have to jump to tip in rebounds and dunk. His standing reach is 9-6" in his era's shoe (Chuck Taylors) which if you own a pair of those vs modern basketball shoes knowing how thin those are by comparison that'd put Wilt's standing reach in modern shoes at about 9 feet 7 inches. Shaq's standing reach in modern shoes was 9 feet 5 inches, so your right 2 inches differences not 3 my mistake on that. But still, 9 feet 7 inches is the same reach as Yao Ming, nobody else in recent times has really come close.

Jerry West's wingspan was 6 feet 9 inches, he also stood over 6 feet 4 inches tall without shoes, no where near his way underbilled 6-3 listed height, West would be listed at least 6-5 if he played today most people aren't aware of how tall he actually was. He also came into the league with a maximum reach of 16 inches above the rim and I have footage of him in 1973 at age 35 still touching a mark 14 inches above the rim on the backboard in training camp, so he had good reach and reasonable leaping ability too.

Nate Thurmond's wingspan is completely unknown. I've looked and looked, can't find anything.

Bill Russell's was 7-4 inches and he stood 6-9 and 5/8ths of an inch tall without shoes, about the same height as Deandre Jordan and Andre Drummond, slightly taller than Dwight Howard or Anthony Davis.

I also have Kareem's wingspan, 7 feet 5 inches, and he stood 7-1 and 7/8ths of an inch tall without shoes. Taller than the tallest player playing in the league today, Hasheem Thabeet, who stands 7-1 and 1/4 without shoes.

I've actually got quite a bit of rare measurement data from before the days of 'draftexpress', there's a lot of it out there, with quite a few surprises as to how tall or short, long or heavy certain players were under the tape or on a scale. List info is never really accurate then or now (though prior to the mid 1970's, "height" was generally more likely to follow a without shoes measurement)


interesting stuff cavs. Keep posting :)

ewing
03-20-2014, 04:38 PM
All this talk about modern training is half true and half BS. Wilt probably worked out like Clubber Lang. Tie a couple ropes to the rafters in your basement and do wide gripped pull ups all day and your back will be jacked.

ewing
03-20-2014, 05:29 PM
You'd be mistaken to assume he wasn't special on reach, re-watch the video and you'll see Wilt almost doesn't even have to jump to tip in rebounds and dunk. His standing reach is 9-6" in his era's shoe (Chuck Taylors) which if you own a pair of those vs modern basketball shoes knowing how thin those are by comparison that'd put Wilt's standing reach in modern shoes at about 9 feet 7 inches. Shaq's standing reach in modern shoes was 9 feet 5 inches, so your right 2 inches differences not 3 my mistake on that. But still, 9 feet 7 inches is the same reach as Yao Ming, nobody else in recent times has really come close.

Jerry West's wingspan was 6 feet 9 inches, he also stood over 6 feet 4 inches tall without shoes, no where near his way underbilled 6-3 listed height, West would be listed at least 6-5 if he played today most people aren't aware of how tall he actually was. He also came into the league with a maximum reach of 16 inches above the rim and I have footage of him in 1973 at age 35 still touching a mark 14 inches above the rim on the backboard in training camp, so he had good reach and reasonable leaping ability too.

Nate Thurmond's wingspan is completely unknown. I've looked and looked, can't find anything.

Bill Russell's was 7-4 inches and he stood 6-9 and 5/8ths of an inch tall without shoes, about the same height as Deandre Jordan and Andre Drummond, slightly taller than Dwight Howard or Anthony Davis.

I also have Kareem's wingspan, 7 feet 5 inches, and he stood 7-1 and 7/8ths of an inch tall without shoes. Taller than the tallest player playing in the league today, Hasheem Thabeet, who stands 7-1 and 1/4 without shoes.

I've actually got quite a bit of rare measurement data from before the days of 'draftexpress', there's a lot of it out there, with quite a few surprises as to how tall or short, long or heavy certain players were under the tape or on a scale. List info is never really accurate then or now (though prior to the mid 1970's, "height" was generally more likely to follow a without shoes measurement)

Cavs any idea how long Kinsey Hunters wingspan was? I remember him Ding up full court with those long arms but i can't find his wingspan anywhere

savvy1803
03-20-2014, 07:44 PM
If you put young Wilt in a time machine he'd walk on an NBA court and dominate.

I believe this as well .