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-Kobe24-TJ19-
03-17-2014, 08:35 PM
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3224/joakim-noah

Give this guy some love, what he is doing is incredeble.

Best all around center in the league?

Ezio
03-17-2014, 08:40 PM
Him and a healthy Marc Gasol. Although Davis is gonna take that spot soon.

Ebbs
03-17-2014, 09:00 PM
The most valuable member of the Bulls is Thibs.

Only organization in the league where I say this with confidence. Including SA.

Hawkeye15
03-17-2014, 09:12 PM
Howard, Gasol before him for me. But Noah is playing great. I would kill to have him next to Love over Pekovic, and I think Pek is a top 10 center.

Meaze_Gibson
03-17-2014, 09:21 PM
Was just in the barbershop talking about Noah. I think he is the second best center and the Defensive Player of the year. Statistically, he would be behind Cousins and Howard but his intangibles are too much. A lot of the bulls sets involve him now running their offense from the middle of the court. His energy forces all of the other players to play with the same tenacity. His fearlessness also rubs off on his teammates as they always play elite teams as if they are not short handed. Dude just will do anything to win and this is one case where i believe stats don't tell the whole story.

Trwood12
03-17-2014, 09:42 PM
Not the best but he is by far one of the most passionate players of all time. His passion for the sport and intensity is unparalleled. I think Howard, Jordan, Mark Gasol, Cousins, and maybe even Drummond are above him but it's close.

Trwood12
03-17-2014, 09:45 PM
Howard, Gasol before him for me. But Noah is playing great. I would kill to have him next to Love over Pekovic, and I think Pek is a top 10 center.
Pek is top 5 offensively for sure but his defense has A LOT of room for improvement. I guess it is hard to get blocks and defend in the paint without fouling when you're that big though..

ewing
03-17-2014, 10:36 PM
Was just in the barbershop talking about Noah. I think he is the second best center and the Defensive Player of the year. Statistically, he would be behind Cousins and Howard but his intangibles are too much. A lot of the bulls sets involve him now running their offense from the middle of the court. His energy forces all of the other players to play with the same tenacity. His fearlessness also rubs off on his teammates as they always play elite teams as if they are not short handed. Dude just will do anything to win and this is one case where i believe stats don't tell the whole story.



great post. the combination of Noah's motor and intelligence lead that team. he is a unique player

D-Leethal
03-17-2014, 10:42 PM
Noah was the best player on the Bulls all along.

D-Leethal
03-17-2014, 10:43 PM
And he has been the best C in the league in my eyes for a while now.

NBA_Starter
03-17-2014, 10:44 PM
Good thread.

The guy is a monster.

5ass
03-17-2014, 10:59 PM
Howard
Noah
Gasol

for me.
Noah is a special player though, his passing is VERY valuable.

Shammyguy3
03-17-2014, 11:17 PM
Noah was the best player on the Bulls all along.

I'm assuming you mean the Bulls without Derrick Rose, i hope?

Shammyguy3
03-17-2014, 11:23 PM
I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts on where Noah not only ranks amongst centers in the league, but where does Noah rank overall. Do you believe he's a top-20 player? Top-30?

Ebbs
03-17-2014, 11:50 PM
I'm assuming you mean the Bulls without Derrick Rose, i hope?

The Bulls best player this season would've been Noah regardless. Rose was *** when he was on the court this season.

Shammyguy3
03-17-2014, 11:54 PM
The Bulls best player this season would've been Noah regardless. Rose was *** when he was on the court this season.

Not true. Not false either. Who knows how Rose would've performed if given a full season. Right before he got hurt he was coming around. And Noah's improvement in play has to do with him having to run the offense. If Rose was healthy, the Bulls would run the offense through him. Not to mention the Bulls wouldn't have traded Deng. So that dwindles Noah's value and respective value to the team.

My post wasn't in regards to this season though... the guy said "Noah's been their best player all along" so I was wondering how far back this "all along" statement was going. Was it just this year? Last year too? Two years ago? Since Thibs got to Chicago?

Ebbs
03-18-2014, 12:05 AM
Not true. Not false either. Who knows how Rose would've performed if given a full season. Right before he got hurt he was coming around. And Noah's improvement in play has to do with him having to run the offense. If Rose was healthy, the Bulls would run the offense through him. Not to mention the Bulls wouldn't have traded Deng. So that dwindles Noah's value and respective value to the team.

My post wasn't in regards to this season though... the guy said "Noah's been their best player all along" so I was wondering how far back this "all along" statement was going. Was it just this year? Last year too? Two years ago? Since Thibs got to Chicago?

Define coming around? He shot 38% over his last five games before going down.

I see what you meant though, clearly prime Rose was more valuable than Noah. Although I don't think Rose will ever even reach 75% of what he was. He's done IMO. Get ready for a Brandon Roy like career.

D-Leethal
03-18-2014, 12:16 AM
My post was a bit of an exaggeration, but I'm not sure its not true. I don't think anyone realized how good Noah was until the Bulls needed to rely on him the way they do now. He is one of the most impactful players in the game, and I think he has been this whole time, his role and responsibility has increased so now its obvious. The Bulls bread and butter has always been defense, intensity and teamwork. When did Rose provide any of that more than Noah? Noah has always been the heart, soul, and backbone of that team.

SeoulBeatz
03-18-2014, 12:17 AM
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3224/joakim-noah

Give this guy some love, what he is doing is incredeble.

Best all around center in the league?

Tough to say if he's the best OVERALL considering he's not a great scorer by any means, but that's obviously not what makes Joakim a great player.

IMO...

He's the best passing/playmaking C in the league. (A lot of Chicago's offense is run from the top of the key with the ball in Joakim's hands looking to find the open man, penetrate, or hit that ugly but effective midrange jumper.)

He's one of the best rebounders in the league.

He's one of the best paint-protectors.

He's a pesky man-to man defender.

He's the most high-energy big in the league along with Kenneth Faried and Reggie Evans.

He always plays with intensity and doesn't let up for a second. His intangibles and how he lifts his entire team with his fire and intensity are what make him such a great impact player.

I'll trust him to bring it every game and if I had a pick for any center to take with me into the playoffs, 1st would be Dwight, 2nd would be Joakim and it's rather close IMO.

Shammyguy3
03-18-2014, 12:19 AM
Define coming around? He shot 38% over his last five games before going down.

I see what you meant though, clearly prime Rose was more valuable than Noah. Although I don't think Rose will ever even reach 75% of what he was. He's done IMO. Get ready for a Brandon Roy like career.

There was a difference in his aggressiveness his last few games before he tore his meniscus. The percentages were never pretty statistically, but he wasn't taking nearly as many dumb shots and stopped forcing everything offensively.

And yeah, you may be right about Rose's career the rest of the way

Shammyguy3
03-18-2014, 12:30 AM
My post was a bit of an exaggeration, but I'm not sure its not true. I don't think anyone realized how good Noah was until the Bulls needed to rely on him the way they do now. He is one of the most impactful players in the game, and I think he has been this whole time, his role and responsibility has increased so now its obvious. The Bulls bread and butter has always been defense, intensity and teamwork. When did Rose provide any of that more than Noah? Noah has always been the heart, soul, and backbone of that team.

Statements like these are overblown imo. YES the Bulls have had a lot of success over Thibs' run because of their stifling defenses. But since when has defense become more valuable than offense convincingly, let alone arguably? The Bulls have always had issues scoring, and Rose was responsible for an enormous amount of those scored points in 2011 and 2012 when he played (i forget the number, but pretty sure it was ~50% of made baskets or something like that). Sure, the Bulls couldn't have won so much without those defenses. But the Bulls wouldn't have won nearly as much of those games without Rose's offensive output.


Nevermind that though, I do NOT want to make this thread about Rose. Let's get back to Noah ----- this season, where does Noah rank in the league? Top-20? Or???

jerellh528
03-18-2014, 12:43 AM
Best center in the league is a bit of a stretch but he's top 3ish and a lot of it is because of his intangibles

CityofTreez
03-18-2014, 12:59 AM
Noah went crazy when he played the Kings. He snapped and got a double technical I believe.
I liked his outburst, even though he was crazy as ****!!!

Chronz
03-18-2014, 02:42 AM
Sure, the Bulls couldn't have won so much without those defenses. But the Bulls wouldn't have won nearly as much of those games without Rose's offensive output.

I can see the argument that Rose is more influential to his teams W/L record vs Noah, but its clear, Defense was their primary reason for success, its why they have sustained his absence far better than most teams sans their "sole star"

Chronz
03-18-2014, 02:43 AM
Best center in the league is a bit of a stretch but he's top 3ish and a lot of it is because of his intangibles

mvp candidates have an argument sometimes

effen5
03-18-2014, 04:48 AM
I can see the argument that Rose is more influential to his teams W/L record vs Noah, but its clear, Defense was their primary reason for success, its why they have sustained his absence far better than most teams sans their "sole star"

While that might be true, this team would also not be in the position that it is in without DJ Augustin. He is actually flourishing under Thibs. Without DJ, I think we would be under 500 right now.

ewing
03-18-2014, 09:10 AM
Statements like these are overblown imo. YES the Bulls have had a lot of success over Thibs' run because of their stifling defenses. But since when has defense become more valuable than offense convincingly, let alone arguably? The Bulls have always had issues scoring, and Rose was responsible for an enormous amount of those scored points in 2011 and 2012 when he played (i forget the number, but pretty sure it was ~50% of made baskets or something like that). Sure, the Bulls couldn't have won so much without those defenses. But the Bulls wouldn't have won nearly as much of those games without Rose's offensive output.


Nevermind that though, I do NOT want to make this thread about Rose. Let's get back to Noah ----- this season, where does Noah rank in the league? Top-20? Or???


seems like they can replace him with Nate Robinson or DJ Augustine and not have that significant a drop off.

ewing
03-18-2014, 09:11 AM
I can see the argument that Rose is more influential to his teams W/L record vs Noah, but its clear, Defense was their primary reason for success, its why they have sustained his absence far better than most teams sans their "sole star"

tell me what that argument is b/c i don't see it

Sly Guy
03-18-2014, 09:29 AM
dude is all heart. I don't think there's a team out there that wouldn't add him to their roster. He's an animal, and the main reason why I'm afraid as a raps fan of the bulls chasing us in the standings.

EL_MACHETE
03-18-2014, 09:57 AM
Noah is a great player and I have made respect for him.. I would say that he's the 3rd best C in the league behind Howard & Cousins

D-Leethal
03-18-2014, 10:36 AM
I can see the argument that Rose is more influential to his teams W/L record vs Noah, but its clear, Defense was their primary reason for success, its why they have sustained his absence far better than most teams sans their "sole star"

It seems they can replace Rose with Nate or DJ Augustin, two basically vet min players, and still make a push to win 50 games. If they replace Noah with Birdman, with Rose in tact, I highly doubt they are approaching 45-50 wins. Obviously theres really no way to prove that, but I believe it to be true.


tell me what that argument is b/c i don't see it

Me either man. I know when you are in agreement with me, I'm usually on to something. Noah's impact on the game is unbelievable. I've never seen intangibles personified quite like this since '08 KG.

tr3ymill3r
03-18-2014, 10:51 AM
I wish every player played with as much passion and intensity as he does. Honestly, when he came out of Florida I thought he was just a product of the system and having a great supporting cast and coach too. I thought he was too skinny and too short to do anything, but he has bulked up and plays with a tenacity that makes a few teams upset they didn't take him higher than 9th in 2007.

D-Leethal
03-18-2014, 10:55 AM
I wish every player played with as much passion and intensity as he does. Honestly, when he came out of Florida I thought he was just a product of the system and having a great supporting cast and coach too. I thought he was too skinny and too short to do anything, but he has bulked up and plays with a tenacity that makes a few teams upset they didn't take him higher than 9th in 2007.

A tenacity that makes me want to cry being that a he was drafted with the Knicks pick that was traded for Eddy Curry.

Stunner
03-18-2014, 11:23 AM
Y'all need to stop with the Rose can be replaced with Robinson and DJ talk . They're nice plug in players but they don't have as near of the impact Rose has on this team . That's like saying the Thunder are better with Reggie Jackson that Westy . It's been so long that people really forgot what Rose does . It's just like those saying Josh is better than Cutler for the Bears . Rose and Cutler just add a more impactful dimension .


Jimmer invented Tapatalk.

Shammyguy3
03-18-2014, 12:02 PM
seems like they can replace him with Nate Robinson or DJ Augustine and not have that significant a drop off.

during the Thibs era, Rose has played in 130 games out of a possible 297. If you subtract the 10 games Rose played this year, where he was pretty awful, then he's played in 120 games out of a possible 287. I'm going to use those 120 games out of 287 games as my barometer to make my point.

With Rose in the lineup the Bulls are 94-26 or a 78.3 win percentage. That equates to 64 wins over an 82 game season. With Rose out of the lineup conversely, the Bulls are 96-71 or a 57.5 win percentage which equals to 47 wins over an 82 game season.

The Bulls with Rose in the lineup could go 2-45 over their next 47 games and still be equal in record to the Bulls without Derrick. Think about that for a moment.

How is going from a projected 64 win season to a 47 win season, a difference of 17 wins, not a significant drop off? That's a HUGE drop-off. The Bulls' were ranked 11th in ORtg in the 2010/11 season and 5th in the 2011/12 season. Last year without Rose the Bulls were ranked 23rd in ORtg. This year the Bulls currently rank 28th in ORtg.


This thought process of the Bulls sole reason of winning is their defense is wrong, and the thought process of "well the Bulls without Rose aren't that much different than the Bulls when they had Rose" is downright crazy.

LongIslandIcedZ
03-18-2014, 12:09 PM
If the Bulls want to trade him for Felton, I could probably do it.

flea
03-18-2014, 12:16 PM
Rose is clearly better than Augustin but the drop-off is not all that much. PGs just aren't all that important to W/L unless you have a good team behind them. Look at Kyrie. I think it's clear that Noah is the best and most impactful player on this team (including healthy Rose). His responsibilities on the team are just so much more than Rose's - which really only consisted of driving as fast as he could into the paint and then hoping he got fouled or had a dump off somewhere.

Noah must be the best offensive rebounder, paint protector, man defender, and playmaker if his team is to win these days. And that's what he does. He's the only center you'll see take on wings (by design, not by a poor Knicks rotation).

-Kobe24-TJ19-
03-18-2014, 12:28 PM
16/11/8/2,5 last 5 games :drool:

In march 14/10/8/2

Stunner
03-18-2014, 12:35 PM
Rose is clearly better than Augustin but the drop-off is not all that much. PGs just aren't all that important to W/L unless you have a good team behind them. Look at Kyrie. I think it's clear that Noah is the best and most impactful player on this team (including healthy Rose). His responsibilities on the team are just so much more than Rose's - which really only consisted of driving as fast as he could into the paint and then hoping he got fouled or had a dump off somewhere.

Noah must be the best offensive rebounder, paint protector, man defender, and playmaker if his team is to win these days. And that's what he does. He's the only center you'll see take on wings (by design, not by a poor Knicks rotation).

Did you read any of Shammy's post ?


Jimmer invented Tapatalk.

D-Leethal
03-18-2014, 01:08 PM
during the Thibs era, Rose has played in 130 games out of a possible 297. If you subtract the 10 games Rose played this year, where he was pretty awful, then he's played in 120 games out of a possible 287. I'm going to use those 120 games out of 287 games as my barometer to make my point.

With Rose in the lineup the Bulls are 94-26 or a 78.3 win percentage. That equates to 64 wins over an 82 game season. With Rose out of the lineup conversely, the Bulls are 96-71 or a 57.5 win percentage which equals to 47 wins over an 82 game season.

The Bulls with Rose in the lineup could go 2-45 over their next 47 games and still be equal in record to the Bulls without Derrick. Think about that for a moment.

How is going from a projected 64 win season to a 47 win season, a difference of 17 wins, not a significant drop off? That's a HUGE drop-off. The Bulls' were ranked 11th in ORtg in the 2010/11 season and 5th in the 2011/12 season. Last year without Rose the Bulls were ranked 23rd in ORtg. This year the Bulls currently rank 28th in ORtg.


This thought process of the Bulls sole reason of winning is their defense is wrong, and the thought process of "well the Bulls without Rose aren't that much different than the Bulls when they had Rose" is downright crazy.

You replace Noah with a vet min backup C and the drop off becomes just as bad if not worse than 17 games IMO. Either way, its CLOSE, and its definitely debateable who the true "impact MVP" is on that squad. This is also considering Noah doing it without Deng as well.

Any non-Noah numbers that involve Asik starting in his place are also irrelevant given how good Asik is. Asik is no Augustin. I know you didn't mention that, but I wanted to get that out there before someone tried to.

ewing
03-18-2014, 01:22 PM
during the Thibs era, Rose has played in 130 games out of a possible 297. If you subtract the 10 games Rose played this year, where he was pretty awful, then he's played in 120 games out of a possible 287. I'm going to use those 120 games out of 287 games as my barometer to make my point.

With Rose in the lineup the Bulls are 94-26 or a 78.3 win percentage. That equates to 64 wins over an 82 game season. With Rose out of the lineup conversely, the Bulls are 96-71 or a 57.5 win percentage which equals to 47 wins over an 82 game season.

The Bulls with Rose in the lineup could go 2-45 over their next 47 games and still be equal in record to the Bulls without Derrick. Think about that for a moment.

How is going from a projected 64 win season to a 47 win season, a difference of 17 wins, not a significant drop off? That's a HUGE drop-off. The Bulls' were ranked 11th in ORtg in the 2010/11 season and 5th in the 2011/12 season. Last year without Rose the Bulls were ranked 23rd in ORtg. This year the Bulls currently rank 28th in ORtg.


This thought process of the Bulls sole reason of winning is their defense is wrong, and the thought process of "well the Bulls without Rose aren't that much different than the Bulls when they had Rose" is downright crazy.

Bring Rose back healthy and replace Noah with lou amundson and i don't think you are winning 47 games. Plus, the front office got rid of Deng and did not full out this roaster at all. I don't see Kover and Asik coming off the bench right now. Sorry i don't think a 17 win drop is accurate. Maybe saying the drop off is not significant was the wrong way to put it but considering you are losing your #1 offensive weapon and a guy being talked about as a franchise/MVP player and replacing him with guys that are basically league min players i think the drop is a lot less then would be expected.

D-Leethal
03-18-2014, 01:35 PM
I think you can tell ewing and I agree on most things around these parts.

mRc08
03-18-2014, 02:11 PM
Shammy is right on here. Noah is doing great and rose's absence has allowed Thibs to implement a system where the offense pretty much runs through him. Basically, he is being asked to do more and living up to it. To say that a healthy rose is less valuable than a healthy Noah is incorrect. Going forward with rose's health in question, I can understand how people may believe that from this point forward Noah is more important to the team, but we just don't know how rose is going to fair. Pre-injuries (which seems long ago at this point), derrick was able to take over games and had the qualities needed to win a championship. You could have paired a healthy derrick with another superstar and been an instant contender given you had a serviceable bigman next to boozer, I don't know if you can say the same with Noah. What makes this all so depressing as a bulls fan is that a full on MVP level derrick rose on the currently constructed bulls roster would make us legit. However, years are wasting away with poorly timed injuries and players being in their prime.

Everything still rides on rose coming back to elite level, whether our front office says they cant put that amount of pressure on derrick going forward. If he cant become elite once again, we are likely in for an era of 3rd type seeding. Even if we add a player like melo, if rose isn't healthy is it really enough to get it over the top? IMO we need a healthy rose, star, and noah along with a rounded out bench to really consider ourselves in the heat/thunder territory.

Shammyguy3
03-18-2014, 03:48 PM
You replace Noah with a vet min backup C and the drop off becomes just as bad if not worse than 17 games IMO. Either way, its CLOSE, and its definitely debateable who the true "impact MVP" is on that squad. This is also considering Noah doing it without Deng as well.

Any non-Noah numbers that involve Asik starting in his place are also irrelevant given how good Asik is. Asik is no Augustin. I know you didn't mention that, but I wanted to get that out there before someone tried to.

That's a fair assessment, but i only agree going forward. In the past, Noah was not this good when Rose was healthy. Noah's improved in Rose's absence, in Deng's absence, and so on. But if we're talking about "Noah's been their best player and MVP all along!" I would STRONGLY disagree with you.


Bring Rose back healthy and replace Noah with lou amundson and i don't think you are winning 47 games. Plus, the front office got rid of Deng and did not full out this roaster at all. I don't see Kover and Asik coming off the bench right now. Sorry i don't think a 17 win drop is accurate. Maybe saying the drop off is not significant was the wrong way to put it but considering you are losing your #1 offensive weapon and a guy being talked about as a franchise/MVP player and replacing him with guys that are basically league min players i think the drop is a lot less then would be expected.

There's quite a difference between Nate Robinson + DJ Augustin and Lou freaking Amundson. Before playing with the Bulls both Nate and DJ showed success playing big minutes in the league. For example, Nate once averaged 17/4/4 playing 30mpg on above average efficiency. Likewise DJ Augustin averaged 14/6/3 playing 33mpg on above average efficiency.

Lou Amundson, a player that has never played more than 15mpg, is a seriously horrible comparison

flea
03-18-2014, 04:10 PM
Augustin has never been above average anything at the NBA level.

ewing
03-18-2014, 04:15 PM
That's a fair assessment, but i only agree going forward. In the past, Noah was not this good when Rose was healthy. Noah's improved in Rose's absence, in Deng's absence, and so on. But if we're talking about "Noah's been their best player and MVP all along!" I would STRONGLY disagree with you.



There's quite a difference between Nate Robinson + DJ Augustin and Lou freaking Amundson. Before playing with the Bulls both Nate and DJ showed success playing big minutes in the league. For example, Nate once averaged 17/4/4 playing 30mpg on above average efficiency. Likewise DJ Augustin averaged 14/6/3 playing 33mpg on above average efficiency.

Lou Amundson, a player that has never played more than 15mpg, is a seriously horrible comparison

Pick a different serviceable high energy big that can be had for peanuts

Shammyguy3
03-18-2014, 04:23 PM
Augustin has never been above average anything at the NBA level.

Outside of his career ts% and ORtg, sure


Pick a different serviceable high energy big that can be had for peanuts

Why does the player have to be had for peanuts? We shouldn't limit this discussion to what is realistic since we're discussing a completely hypothetical scenario. Insert a player that has had success to the same attune that DJ and Nate have. Omer Asik, Andrew Bogut, Anderson Varejao - those are the guys that should be used if you want to argue this point.

But this is all moot - because Rose will most likely never return to that MVP form. So let's get back to Joakim Noah in his entirety, this topic has been discussed too much already

ewing
03-18-2014, 04:42 PM
Outside of his career ts% and ORtg, sure



Why does the player have to be had for peanuts? We shouldn't limit this discussion to what is realistic since we're discussing a completely hypothetical scenario. Insert a player that has had success to the same attune that DJ and Nate have. Omer Asik, Andrew Bogut, Anderson Varejao - those are the guys that should be used if you want to argue this point.

But this is all moot - because Rose will most likely never return to that MVP form. So let's get back to Joakim Noah in his entirety, this topic has been discussed too much already

Please Asik, Bogut, and Andy are all well above average for a starting center. Nate and DJ guys who have trouble finding a fit b/c they are quite limited.

NoahH
03-18-2014, 04:51 PM
Pek is top 5 offensively for sure but his defense has A LOT of room for improvement. I guess it is hard to get blocks and defend in the paint without fouling when you're that big though..

Yup Pek's defense is pretty terrible

Shammyguy3
03-18-2014, 05:02 PM
Please Asik, Bogut, and Andy are all well above average for a starting center. Nate and DJ guys who have trouble finding a fit b/c they are quite limited.

You're correct on Bogut, but in regards to Asik and Varejao here's a list of centers in the
league. Would you take either of those two ahead of 15 of these centers?


Dwight Howard
Joakim Noah
Marc Gasol
DeMarcus Cousins
Tim Duncan
Brook Lopez
Al Jefferson
Andre Drummond
Roy Hibbert
Nikola Pekovic
Andrew Bogut
Al Horford
DeAndre Jordan
Tyson Chandler
Greg Monroe
Marcin Gortat
Larry Sanders
Nikolai Vucevic
Jonas Valančiūnas
Tiago Splitter
Robin Lopez
Miles Plumlee
Kevin Garnett


Because right now, I absolutely would not take Varejao or Asik ahead of 15 of those guys

naps
03-18-2014, 05:16 PM
during the Thibs era, Rose has played in 130 games out of a possible 297. If you subtract the 10 games Rose played this year, where he was pretty awful, then he's played in 120 games out of a possible 287. I'm going to use those 120 games out of 287 games as my barometer to make my point.

With Rose in the lineup the Bulls are 94-26 or a 78.3 win percentage. That equates to 64 wins over an 82 game season. With Rose out of the lineup conversely, the Bulls are 96-71 or a 57.5 win percentage which equals to 47 wins over an 82 game season.

The Bulls with Rose in the lineup could go 2-45 over their next 47 games and still be equal in record to the Bulls without Derrick. Think about that for a moment.

How is going from a projected 64 win season to a 47 win season, a difference of 17 wins, not a significant drop off? That's a HUGE drop-off. The Bulls' were ranked 11th in ORtg in the 2010/11 season and 5th in the 2011/12 season. Last year without Rose the Bulls were ranked 23rd in ORtg. This year the Bulls currently rank 28th in ORtg.


This thought process of the Bulls sole reason of winning is their defense is wrong, and the thought process of "well the Bulls without Rose aren't that much different than the Bulls when they had Rose" is downright crazy.

This is irrelevant. I am not sure if you intentionally avoided the fact that those Rose teams were actually pretty balanced and had quite a few very very good role players that are not on this Noah-led team anymore. So this 17 games dropoff is not accurate.

D-Leethal
03-18-2014, 05:20 PM
You're correct on Bogut, but in regards to Asik and Varejao here's a list of centers in the
league. Would you take either of those two ahead of 15 of these centers?


Dwight Howard
Joakim Noah
Marc Gasol
DeMarcus Cousins
Tim Duncan
Brook Lopez
Al Jefferson
Andre Drummond
Roy Hibbert
Nikola Pekovic
Andrew Bogut
Al Horford
DeAndre Jordan
Tyson Chandler
Greg Monroe
Marcin Gortat
Larry Sanders
Nikolai Vucevic
Jonas Valančiūnas
Tiago Splitter
Robin Lopez
Miles Plumlee
Kevin Garnett


Because right now, I absolutely would not take Varejao or Asik ahead of 15 of those guys

I sure as hell would if they were healthy.

And I can name close to 50 PGs I'd take over DJ and Nate.

Shammyguy3
03-18-2014, 05:28 PM
This is irrelevant. I am not sure if you intentionally avoided the fact that those Rose teams were actually pretty balanced and had quite a few very very good role players that are not on this Noah-led team anymore. So this 17 games dropoff is not accurate.

Lol okay. So it's completely irrevelant, even though there are players on this team damn right comparable to the players on those Rose teams outside of Omer Asik.

Hinrich > Watson
Butler > Bogans/Brewer
Dunleavy = Korver

You could easily subtract the games from this season as a whole and simply look at the '11, '12, '13 seasons and my point still stands. Subtract the team's record this season and the Bulls without Rose are 64-46 or a 58.2 win percentage, equating to 48 wins in the regular season. That's a 16 game difference, still.

Shammyguy3
03-18-2014, 05:33 PM
I sure as hell would if they were healthy.

And I can name close to 50 PGs I'd take over DJ and Nate.

Name the centers that you'd take over those guys then. And your second statement is downright ridiculous.

ewing
03-18-2014, 07:25 PM
You're correct on Bogut, but in regards to Asik and Varejao here's a list of centers in the
league. Would you take either of those two ahead of 15 of these centers?


Dwight Howard
Joakim Noah
Marc Gasol
DeMarcus Cousins
Tim Duncan
Brook Lopez
Al Jefferson
Andre Drummond
Roy Hibbert
Nikola Pekovic
Andrew Bogut
Al Horford
DeAndre Jordan
Tyson Chandler
Greg Monroe
Marcin Gortat
Larry Sanders
Nikolai Vucevic
Jonas Valančiūnas
Tiago Splitter
Robin Lopez
Miles Plumlee
Kevin Garnett


Because right now, I absolutely would not take Varejao or Asik ahead of 15 of those guys

Yes. If you don't think a healthy Andy Varejao is a top 15 center i don't know what to tell you. i'll only tell you i am not surprised that underrate Noah

Shammyguy3
03-18-2014, 07:27 PM
Name the centers that you'd take Varejao ahead of

ewing
03-18-2014, 08:47 PM
Name the centers that you'd take Varejao ahead of

at min 16 through 23 all day and depending on surrounding talent i'd consider him over Brook, Al, Pek, Tyson, and Bogut at min. It's not long ago that he was second team all D and considered an all star by many. If you want to respond by cheery picking stats free feel but he is not comparable to DJ Augustine or Nate

ewing
03-18-2014, 08:55 PM
Seriously if DJ is like Andy who is John Lucus comparable to too? Maybe Jarrett Jack

Bruno
03-18-2014, 09:11 PM
i don't know if he's the best center in the league but he is having the best season out of any center in the NBA. His WS/48 numbers on a bulls team without rose and noah are really impressive. he should be on the first team if Chicago earns HCA in the first round.

Shammyguy3
03-18-2014, 10:29 PM
Seriously if DJ is like Andy who is John Lucus comparable to too? Maybe Jarrett Jack

remind me again of any success JLIII had in Chicago... the dude played well for like 3 total games. The rest of the time the dude was awful

ewing
03-18-2014, 11:22 PM
remind me again of any success JLIII had in Chicago... the dude played well for like 3 total games. The rest of the time the dude was awful


you tell me

ewing
03-18-2014, 11:25 PM
i hated Noah in college but he gets better and better the more you watch

Shammyguy3
03-19-2014, 12:03 AM
you tell me

i just told you

ewing
03-19-2014, 12:06 AM
i just told you

:rolleyes:

effen5
03-19-2014, 01:39 AM
Lol okay. So it's completely irrevelant, even though there are players on this team damn right comparable to the players on those Rose teams outside of Omer Asik.

Hinrich > Watson
Butler > Bogans/Brewer
Dunleavy = Korver

You could easily subtract the games from this season as a whole and simply look at the '11, '12, '13 seasons and my point still stands. Subtract the team's record this season and the Bulls without Rose are 64-46 or a 58.2 win percentage, equating to 48 wins in the regular season. That's a 16 game difference, still.

Ding ding ding....you people are ridiculous. Me personally, I would trade Rose right now IF we could but Shammy is a 100% right. We've upgraded in almost every position since Rose's MVP season...you people also forget....Noah Boozer missed a good chuck of the season that year as well.

beasted86
03-19-2014, 06:40 PM
Bulls fans keep saying that the team outside of Rose is better than its ever been... but we all know they are trying to convince themselves, not us.

On topic, Noah has definitely improved, but probably overrated by most. Overrated in the same sense that I've seen people overrate Marc Gasol to the point that he was awarded a clearly undeserved DPOY. Every team and fan base would love to have Noah but he isn't a franchise player, he's a complimentary piece. You need two legit all-stars outside of him for your team to succeed, and then I'm still not sure he's enough of a difference maker. I think the HEAT are worse if you swap him and Bosh even with the two other stars. I think the Thunder are probably worse if you swap him and Ibaka, again still having the two other stars. Then you take a borderline team like the Warriors, again, not sure you move Bogut for Noah straight up you automatically now say "well, they are the favorities to come out of the West now".

Not trying to diminish how good of a player Noah is though. Great energy, unrelentless on the glass, excellent defender and very solid passer. He fits what Chicago does perfectly, and like I said, any team would like to have him.

flea
03-19-2014, 06:53 PM
Bulls fans keep saying that the team outside of Rose is better than its ever been... but we all know they are trying to convince themselves, not us.

On topic, Noah has definitely improved, but probably overrated by most. Overrated in the same sense that I've seen people overrate Marc Gasol to the point that he was awarded a clearly undeserved DPOY. Every team and fan base would love to have Noah but he isn't a franchise player, he's a complimentary piece. You need two legit all-stars outside of him for your team to succeed, and then I'm still not sure he's enough of a difference maker. I think the HEAT are worse if you swap him and Bosh even with the two other stars. I think the Thunder are probably worse if you swap him and Ibaka, again still having the two other stars. Then you take a borderline team like the Warriors, again, not sure you move Bogut for Noah straight up you automatically now say "well, they are the favorities to come out of the West now".

Not trying to diminish how good of a player Noah is though. Great energy, unrelentless on the glass, excellent defender and very solid passer. He fits what Chicago does perfectly, and like I said, any team would like to have him.

Gasol's DPOY was undeserved? Are you high? He's annually a top 3 defensive player. Who do you think should have won? (Please don't say Lebron.)

smiddy012
03-19-2014, 06:56 PM
Bulls fans keep saying that the team outside of Rose is better than its ever been... but we all know they are trying to convince themselves, not us.

On topic, Noah has definitely improved, but probably overrated by most. Overrated in the same sense that I've seen people overrate Marc Gasol to the point that he was awarded a clearly undeserved DPOY. Every team and fan base would love to have Noah but he isn't a franchise player, he's a complimentary piece. You need two legit all-stars outside of him for your team to succeed, and then I'm still not sure he's enough of a difference maker. I think the HEAT are worse if you swap him and Bosh even with the two other stars. I think the Thunder are probably worse if you swap him and Ibaka, again still having the two other stars. Then you take a borderline team like the Warriors, again, not sure you move Bogut for Noah straight up you automatically now say "well, they are the favorities to come out of the West now".

Not trying to diminish how good of a player Noah is though. Great energy, unrelentless on the glass, excellent defender and very solid passer. He fits what Chicago does perfectly, and like I said, any team would like to have him.

Although your opinion is your opinion, and I respect that, the bolded betrayed whatever trust or hope I may have had in it.

All-In
03-19-2014, 09:38 PM
Dwight is overall the best Center in the game than right behind him would be Joakim…I like Marc Gasol but hes getting back from injury and I don’t think he’s fully himself yet and Joakim is an irritant to all other centers in the game…which I love…all other centers hate playing against him…I would love to have him on my team…as a heat fan…I rather have a combination of him and Channing Frye over Bosh….salary’s for this year…Bosh is 19mil and Frye plus Joakim would be 18mil….I love bosh and all but having a Frye/Noah frontcourt within Miami’s system would be awesome…..on both ends of the court….pipedream

xxcubs22xx
03-19-2014, 10:25 PM
Honestly, right now I'd even take Taj Gibson over Varejao.

Noah's definitely not overrated. He's more of an anchor than people in this thread are giving him credit for. Yes, the Bulls offense is run through him. But do you realize he leads and finishes fast breaks on his own? He's an excellent ball handler. He accounts for more scoring than what the scoreboard says. Energy plays, PG like distribution, second chance live balls, even that jumpshot. He's got it all going right now. And I didn't even talk about his defense.

Top 4 Center easily. He makes any team vastly better.

PurpleLynch
03-20-2014, 08:30 AM
Although your opinion is your opinion, and I respect that, the bolded betrayed whatever trust or hope I may have had in it.

Agree. That postulate that you have bolded is completely wrong. We can't say if they'll be better,but worse than before? No way. And imo is thought is flawed because if you make the same argument for Bosh or Bogut or Ibaka to the Bulls,you can argue that the Bulls are worse than before.His defense is above every player he mentioned,passing and rebounding too.Bosh is better just on offense,because he can shoot from a lot of positions(even if the mid remains his best weapon from long range).Ibaka is just more athletic(both him and Noah are very good shot blockers).Also Bogut is a poorer version of Noah.

JohnStockton
03-26-2014, 05:53 PM
There isn't a center who is more important to his team's success than Noah. Take Noah away, and that team is awful.

Drummond and DMC are both on horrid teams, so I wouldn't say that they are valuable to their team's success since their teams aren't having any success. Dwight and Gasol are the other two guys in the conversation. I wouldn't suggest either are more important than Noah. The Rockets have some great supporting players and I think Dwight likely only adds about 5-7 wins (though the team is much better with). Jones, Asik and Parsons are all solid guys developing into interesting players. Gasol was out and though Memphis wasn't as good without him, I don't think their drop was as dig as Chicago's would be if they lost Noah.


He is just so important in everything they do.

72 Wins
03-27-2014, 01:32 AM
https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/t1.0-9/1959370_620791681329888_1095445027_n.jpg

uptown0364
04-10-2014, 01:04 PM
With his triple double last night Joakim joined David Robinson, Bill Russell & Wilt as the only Centers to have 4+triple-doubles that consisted of Pts, Rbs & Asts in 1 season

mngopher35
04-10-2014, 01:10 PM
https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/t1.0-9/1959370_620791681329888_1095445027_n.jpg

haha this is awesome

PeanutPunch33
04-10-2014, 01:17 PM
Noah is a great player and I have made respect for him.. I would say that he's the 3rd best C in the league behind Howard & Cousins

I'm a Bulls fan, and I agree with this. Cousins and D12 are franchise players and Noah will never be that, but he's clearly a triple double threat every night and for my money the DPOY. he got snubbed last year too