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View Full Version : Durant: Jordan and Kobe are 1 and 1a



t0nyg11
03-14-2014, 03:26 PM
http://wallstcheatsheet.com/sports/nba-kevin-durant-opens-up-about-kobe-bryant.html/?ref=YF

Full article here gives more insight about Durant and his game:
http://www.insidesocal.com/lakers/2014/03/13/lakers-qa-kevin-durant-details-mentorship-from-kobe-bryant/

I've always like Durant's modesty


Of course. He’s the greatest of all time. His skill is second to none. Him and MJ are neck and neck as far as skill. You can put in athleticism and be the best passer and strongest and quickest. But it’s about skill. I think that’s how his game is played. That’s why Kobe is the top two best ever in just having skill, footwork, shooting the three, shooting the pull up, posting up, dunking on guys and ball handling. It’s flat out skill. Him and Jordan are 1 and 1 a. They’re neck and neck as far as the skills are concerned.

Slug3
03-14-2014, 03:30 PM
His opinion.

Kushed
03-14-2014, 03:30 PM
It astonishes me how little NBA players know about basketball when evaluating other players lol..

Kobe is one of the most skilled scorers ever but not even close to being one of the most skilled all-around players.

End of story.

Hawkeye15
03-14-2014, 03:31 PM
Before this turns into a Kobe-LeBron war, please note he is talking about "SKILL", not impact.

I have no problem with this. Durant isn't old enough to have watched Bird for instance, and the most technically skilled basketball players, fundamentally, in the past 25 years, probably are MJ and Kobe. I don't think Kobe's impact is the same as Duncan, Shaq, or LeBron, but you can easily argue his basketball skill is higher.

Also, remember, Durant's game resembles those guys. I am not sure he would appreciate a Magic/LeBron as much as many others.

todu82
03-14-2014, 03:32 PM
I respect the heck out of Durant. Guy is such a good player and seems like a good guy as well but no way is Kobe a 1b player of all time. Kobe is top 10 all time for sure but not 1b.

Leftcoast_yg
03-14-2014, 03:35 PM
It astonishes me how little NBA players know about basketball when evaluating other players lol..

Kobe is one of the most skilled scorers ever but not even close to being one of the most skilled all-around players.

End of story.

LOL ok mr bball expert

Ebbs
03-14-2014, 03:37 PM
Well he was a teammate and friend with on of them...

savvy1803
03-14-2014, 03:38 PM
Very kind words from KD .

Chronz
03-14-2014, 03:44 PM
Hes right, Peak Kobe-MJ-Bird are the most skilled scorers we've ever seen.

Leftcoast_yg
03-14-2014, 03:47 PM
Its amazing how people's hate can blind them.

Tony_Starks
03-14-2014, 03:51 PM
If you look at the words there's no argument. Footwork, shooting 3, pull up, post up, ball handling..... it's obvious.

He's not saying anything MJ and multiple others haven't said over and over....

beliges
03-14-2014, 03:59 PM
Very exceptional assessment from KD and his understanding of the game. Skill wise, MJ and Kobe are 1a and 1b. Im sure the vast majority of NBA personell will easily agree with that. Im sure the vast majority of individuals posting on PSD will find it difficult to stomach.

Hawkeye15
03-14-2014, 04:00 PM
Very exceptional assessment from KD and his understanding of the game. Skill wise, MJ and Kobe are 1a and 1b. Im sure the vast majority of NBA personell will easily agree with that. Im sure the vast majority of individuals posting on PSD will find it difficult to stomach.

It's not difficult to stomach as long as you understand skill does not equal impact.

Zefflin
03-14-2014, 04:00 PM
Before this turns into a Kobe-LeBron war, please note he is talking about "SKILL", not impact.

I have no problem with this. Durant isn't old enough to have watched Bird for instance.

C'mon Hawkeye, you should probably know by now KD modeled his game after Larry Bird more then anybody else...he's said it himself.

Hawkeye15
03-14-2014, 04:01 PM
C'mon Hawkeye, you should probably know by now KD modeled his game after Larry Bird more then anybody else...he's said it himself.

then he has watched a lot of youtube..

But yeah, that is why he has Kobe and MJ so high. He modeled his game after skilled scorers.

beliges
03-14-2014, 04:02 PM
I respect the heck out of Durant. Guy is such a good player and seems like a good guy as well but no way is Kobe a 1b player of all time. Kobe is top 10 all time for sure but not 1b.

Just like you have your opinion, KD gave his. You do not agree with him and he does not agree with you. However, the puzzling thing is that those with superior knowledge of the game (i.e. those that are and were invovled in it) have a similar opinion to KDs regarding this topic. And I find it puzzling that some "fans" of the game posting on PSD always resort to the same old argument of "Oh, what does he know about evaluating talent?" I can say one thing here, individuals that are paid millions of millions of dollars to coach, play, scout and make decisions in the NBA know how to evaluate players exponentially more accurately than any one of us here on PSD do.

savvy1803
03-14-2014, 04:05 PM
Very exceptional assessment from KD and his understanding of the game. Skill wise, MJ and Kobe are 1a and 1b. Im sure the vast majority of NBA personell will easily agree with that. Im sure the vast majority of individuals posting on PSD will find it difficult to stomach.
I just really like that he has become a student of the game and is willing to respect and praise others who came before him for their achievement's and contributions to the great game of basketball , good to hear that .

beliges
03-14-2014, 04:07 PM
I just really like that he has become a student of the game and is willing to respect and praise others who came before him for their achievement's and contributions to the great game of basketball , good to hear that .

Well, the fact that he mentions footwork, and post up game and fundamentals shows the depth of his understanding of the game of basketball, and that is the aspect that surprised me the most in his statement.

Hawkeye15
03-14-2014, 04:08 PM
Just like you have your opinion, KD gave his. You do not agree with him and he does not agree with you. However, the puzzling thing is that those with superior knowledge of the game (i.e. those that are and were invovled in it) have a similar opinion to KDs regarding this topic. And I find it puzzling that some "fans" of the game posting on PSD always resort to the same old argument of "Oh, what does he know about evaluating talent?" I can say one thing here, individuals that are paid millions of millions of dollars to coach, play, scout and make decisions in the NBA know how to evaluate players exponentially more accurately than any one of us here on PSD do.

and all we ever need to do is take a look at how horrible so many of these great players are as talent evaluators after they are done.

I would take Daryl Morey or Sam Presti's opinion of a player over almost any ex-great.

Hawkeye15
03-14-2014, 04:09 PM
Well, the fact that he mentions footwork, and post up game and fundamentals shows the depth of his understanding of the game of basketball, and that is the aspect that surprised me the most in his statement.

I knew what those were when I was in 6th grade dude.

Hawkeye15
03-14-2014, 04:10 PM
I just really like that he has become a student of the game and is willing to respect and praise others who came before him for their achievement's and contributions to the great game of basketball , good to hear that .

Always nice to hear current players praise the elders. For sure. Especially if there is a bit of accuracy in their opinions, instead of just throwing a name out there.

beliges
03-14-2014, 04:12 PM
and all we ever need to do is take a look at how horrible so many of these great players are as talent evaluators after they are done.

I would take Daryl Morey or Sam Presti's opinion of a player over almost any ex-great.

Well you would take anybody's opinion that paralleled your line of thinking. The fact of the matter is, these people are in the position they are in because they understand the game a hell of a lot more than the lay fan. I find it beyond humorous when a random poster on PSD thinks they know the game of basketball better than some of the GMs, coaches or players in this game.

Hawkeye15
03-14-2014, 04:15 PM
Well you would take anybody's opinion that paralleled your line of thinking. The fact of the matter is, these people are in the position they are in because they understand the game a hell of a lot more than the lay fan. I find it beyond humorous when a random poster on PSD thinks they know the game of basketball better than some of the GMs, coaches or players in this game.

no, I take the opinions of those who have a track record of evaluating talent, period.

You do understand, many ex players get basketball jobs after their careers are over, because they have the ultimate list of connections in the business, right?

For every coach/GM like Larry Bird, there are 5 Zeke's or MJ's.

Please explain why some of the best GM's in the game are short, fat white dudes who never played past high school...

beliges
03-14-2014, 04:18 PM
no, I take the opinions of those who have a track record of evaluating talent, period.

You do understand, many ex players get basketball jobs after their careers are over, because they have the ultimate list of connections in the business, right?

For every coach/GM like Larry Bird, there are 5 Zeke's or MJ's.

Please explain why some of the best GM's in the game are short, fat white dudes who never played past high school...

As bad as MJ may seem as a talent evaluator, he played in the league for over 13 years or so. His opinion in evaluating NBA talent is hell of a lot more accurate than anyone's here. Those players that end up with NBA jobs afterwards may not be the smartest GMs or evaluators in the game, but they have the experience and know what it takes to compete in the league and know what it takes to go up against other NBA caliber players. So their evaluation, no matter how inaccurate, holds a hell of a lot more weight strictly based on their experience than anyone posting on an internet forum. LOL.

LoveMeOrHateMe
03-14-2014, 04:25 PM
Players opinions> all u 15 year old turds!

Durant knows

Leftcoast_yg
03-14-2014, 04:25 PM
then he has watched a lot of youtube..

But yeah, that is why he has Kobe and MJ so high. He modeled his game after skilled scorers.

We know you hate kobe but dont let it blind you like that other guy.

Hawkeye15
03-14-2014, 04:28 PM
We know you hate kobe but dont let it blind you like that other guy.

huh?

Hawkeye15
03-14-2014, 04:30 PM
As bad as MJ may seem as a talent evaluator, he played in the league for over 13 years or so. His opinion in evaluating NBA talent is hell of a lot more accurate than anyone's here. Those players that end up with NBA jobs afterwards may not be the smartest GMs or evaluators in the game, but they have the experience and know what it takes to compete in the league and know what it takes to go up against other NBA caliber players. So their evaluation, no matter how inaccurate, holds a hell of a lot more weight strictly based on their experience than anyone posting on an internet forum. LOL.

totally disagree.

If your evaluation is continually inaccurate, meaning, you keep drafting/signing bad players or combinations, I don't care if you were a 10 time MVP in the league, I don't need to listen to your opinion on a player. You have proven you can play, but don't know how to find players.

Playing, coaching, and managing, are very different things, that require different skill sets.

5ass
03-14-2014, 04:30 PM
In terms of skill thats fine. Nash could be considered GOAT.

beliges
03-14-2014, 04:31 PM
then he has watched a lot of youtube..

But yeah, that is why he has Kobe and MJ so high. He modeled his game after skilled scorers.

LOL. He wasnt necessarily talking about scoring. He was talking about accomplishments and ability. He took into consideration a complete game as opposed to simply scoring, which is how you are choosing to interpret it. Anyways, a very honest and accurate assessment from one of the two greatest players in the game today.

Zefflin
03-14-2014, 04:34 PM
then he has watched a lot of youtube..


“Self-education is, I firmly believe, the only kind of education there is.”

Hawkeye15
03-14-2014, 04:36 PM
“Self-education is, I firmly believe, the only kind of education there is.”

very true

beliges
03-14-2014, 04:36 PM
totally disagree.

If your evaluation is continually inaccurate, meaning, you keep drafting/signing bad players or combinations, I don't care if you were a 10 time MVP in the league, I don't need to listen to your opinion on a player. You have proven you can play, but don't know how to find players.

Playing, coaching, and managing, are very different things, that require different skill sets.

LOL. Disagree all you want. The man with over a decade of experience in the league, playing the game, against other NBA caliber players, knows how to evaluate NBA talent better than you or me or any other poster on an internet forum.

Hawkeye15
03-14-2014, 04:37 PM
LOL. Disagree all you want. The man with over a decade of experience in the league, playing the game, against other NBA caliber players, knows how to evaluate NBA talent better than you or me or any other poster on an internet forum.

who are the top 5 coaches right now? How about the top 5 GM's? In your opinion?

beliges
03-14-2014, 04:39 PM
who are the top 5 coaches right now? How about the top 5 GM's? In your opinion?

The hell does that have to do with anything? I can tell you the absolute worst GM and coach in the NBA know and understand the game a hell of a lot more than you or I.

sammyvine
03-14-2014, 04:44 PM
I disagree with him don't think Kobe is better than MJ or a top 5 player ever but why are people so upset and crying over it?

Its his opinion whether you choose to think he is being genuine or not..some people just like certain players and maybe thats how KD feels.

Its funny how all the fans crying and slagging off kobe and durant are heat lebron fans LOL

Chronz
03-14-2014, 04:44 PM
I respect the heck out of Durant. Guy is such a good player and seems like a good guy as well but no way is Kobe a 1b player of all time. Kobe is top 10 all time for sure but not 1b.

Thats not what he said bro. Notice the words, "when it comes to SKILL", hes not ranking anyone in anything other than skillset. Some people argue that Melo is more skilled than LeBron, Kobe was more skilled than Shaq, none of this changed the fact that the superior player was the guy with the most impact.

sammyvine
03-14-2014, 04:45 PM
The hell does that have to do with anything? I can tell you the absolute worst GM and coach in the NBA know and understand the game a hell of a lot more than you or I.

Exactly....posters seem to think they know it all....

If we are so wise why are we not in the NBA as players or GM. Not saying players can't be wrong or bad talent evaluators, but for posters to dismiss them like they are just anybody, that is really foolish.

Hawkeye15
03-14-2014, 04:46 PM
The hell does that have to do with anything? I can tell you the absolute worst GM and coach in the NBA know and understand the game a hell of a lot more than you or I.

Because your theory is simple to disprove.

Pops-never played a minute in the NBA
Thibs- never played a minute in the NBA
Vogel- never played a minute in the NBA
Stotts- played in the CBA
Hornacek- good NBA career

those are the 5 COY candidates.

Buford- never played a minute in the NBA
Bird- HOF'er
Presti- never played a minute in the NBA
Morey- never played a minute in the NBA
Ujiri- never played a minute in the NBA

Being an ex-player really doesn't mean you are an expert in the sport. Not when it comes to doing anything outside actually playing it.

Chronz
03-14-2014, 04:47 PM
The hell does that have to do with anything? I can tell you the absolute worst GM and coach in the NBA know and understand the game a hell of a lot more than you or I.

You must have a very low opinion of yourself to think you know less about basketball than guys who have proven to make idiotic mistakes. Do you really believe you know less than all NBA players to ever play? What about when those guys make statements you know to be wildly inaccurate? Do you still bow down to that opinion? If not, then how are you so sure you couldn't possibly know any more than them?

Hawkeye15
03-14-2014, 04:48 PM
You must have a very low opinion of yourself to think you know less about basketball than guys who have proven to make idiotic mistakes. Do you really believe you know less than all NBA players to ever play? What about when those guys make statements you know to be wildly inaccurate? Do you still bow down to that opinion? If not, then how are you so sure you couldn't possibly know any more than them?

beliges, if you know less than David Kahn about basketball, you may want to close up shop..

Chronz
03-14-2014, 04:48 PM
I disagree with him don't think Kobe is better than MJ or a top 5 player ever but why are people so upset and crying over it?

Its his opinion whether you choose to think he is being genuine or not..some people just like certain players and maybe thats how KD feels.

Its funny how all the fans crying and slagging off kobe and durant are heat lebron fans LOL
Your the 2nd person to say this? Whos crying? All I see are people misinterpreting what hes said, including yourself. Show me where he ranks players in anything other than skillset? He goes on to list aspects of the game where he finds those players to be SKILLED, hes not talking about accomplishments, rings, legacy or anything.

Chronz
03-14-2014, 04:49 PM
LOL. He wasnt necessarily talking about scoring. He was talking about accomplishments and ability.
What accomplishments?

sammyvine
03-14-2014, 04:53 PM
totally disagree.

If your evaluation is continually inaccurate, meaning, you keep drafting/signing bad players or combinations, I don't care if you were a 10 time MVP in the league, I don't need to listen to your opinion on a player. You have proven you can play, but don't know how to find players.

Playing, coaching, and managing, are very different things, that require different skill sets.

So you actually believe you know more about ball and talent than MJ?

Chronz
03-14-2014, 04:53 PM
Exactly....posters seem to think they know it all....

If we are so wise why are we not in the NBA as players or GM. Not saying players can't be wrong or bad talent evaluators, but for posters to dismiss them like they are just anybody, that is really foolish.
Why rely on extreme logic(lies?) to back you? Who says they know everything? Thats right, nobody claims to be a god at this.

And its easy to answer, you have to actually pursue the career and connections mean alot in life. Are you willing to work the grind, start off as a video coordinator, stat analyst, ball boy lol... whatever .. you have to be willing to put in the work and stand out at some point.

Hawkeye15
03-14-2014, 04:55 PM
So you actually believe you know more about ball and talent than MJ?

a lot of people here know more than MJ about evaluating talent. Look at his track record building a team. It's horrible.

beliges
03-14-2014, 04:56 PM
You must have a very low opinion of yourself to think you know less about basketball than guys who have proven to make idiotic mistakes. Do you really believe you know less than all NBA players to ever play? What about when those guys make statements you know to be wildly inaccurate? Do you still bow down to that opinion? If not, then how are you so sure you couldn't possibly know any more than them?

LOL. You must have a very high opinion of your basketball watching skills to believe you know more about the NBA game than those who have personally lived it for the majority of their lives. Clearly, you all should work in the NBA and make millions as opposed to watch a double-header on TV and pretend you can create dynasties with your all knowing abilities.

jerellh528
03-14-2014, 04:56 PM
I remember posting this is the Kobe ruled out for season thread but anyways, Talking strictly skill wise, durant is right. I might even put Kobe 1a, Jordan 1b. Again this is talking strictly skill of both sides of the ball, not talent, impact or luck.

Chronz
03-14-2014, 04:57 PM
C'mon Hawkeye, you should probably know by now KD modeled his game after Larry Bird more then anybody else...he's said it himself.

He keeps changing his story, first it was Tmac, that his coach told him to study tape on him. Then it was VC made him a fan of the game and he modeled his game after him. Then as his career unfolded, he started talking about Bird.

I highly doubt he modeled his game primarily on Bird's game. He looks like a blend of all 3 but I have a hard time believing Bird was the blue print, hes more of a smooth scorer like the athletic swings he was actually able to watch more footage of.

Chronz
03-14-2014, 04:58 PM
I remember posting this is the Kobe ruled out for season thread but anyways, Talking strictly skill wise, durant is right. I might even put Kobe 1a, Jordan 1b. Again this is talking strictly skill of both sides of the ball, not talent, impact or luck.

Both sides of the ball?

I dont think Durant is considering that, he didn't mention a single aspect of defense at all, if thats the case then MJ is CLEARLY ahead of the pack.

beliges
03-14-2014, 04:58 PM
So you actually believe you know more about ball and talent than MJ?

These people think because they played Junior High ball and because they play a couple of times a month at the local park, they understand the game better than NBA players that have been in the league for over a decade. This is the epitome of PSD in a nutshell. HAHA! All these guys should be making millions in the league instead of posting on PSD.

This is all too funny.

Chronz
03-14-2014, 05:01 PM
LOL. You must have a very high opinion of your basketball watching skills to believe you know more about the NBA game than those who have personally lived it for the majority of their lives. Clearly, you all should work in the NBA and make millions as opposed to watch a double-header on TV and pretend you can create dynasties with your all knowing abilities.

I dont believe, I KNOW when a player or coach has said something asinine. I know this because I've seen them refuted by people who are actually in the business of studying trends. And you make it sound like its so easy to get that job.

Im noticing a trend of you ignoring all questions raised. Again, are you saying you have NEVER heard/seen a player say something utterly ridiculous?

Chronz
03-14-2014, 05:05 PM
These people think because they played Junior High ball and because they play a couple of times a month at the local park, they understand the game better than NBA players that have been in the league for over a decade. This is the epitome of PSD in a nutshell. HAHA! All these guys should be making millions in the league instead of posting on PSD.

This is all too funny.

Whats funny is that you think appealing to the authority is actually an argument here. If MJ was such a genius, why has he allowed a non-NBA player make the decisions for him?

Again, you dont need to play the NBA game to know more about it than the players who perform. Its evident throughout history with some of the ridiculous things that have been said.

beliges
03-14-2014, 05:08 PM
I dont believe, I KNOW when a player or coach has said something asinine. I know this because I've seen them refuted by people who are actually in the business of studying trends. And you make it sound like its so easy to get that job.

Im noticing a trend of you ignoring all questions raised. Again, are you saying you have NEVER heard/seen a player say something utterly ridiculous?

No clearly everyone makes mistakes, including NBA coaches, players, gms, fans and etc... You can always pinpoint to one specific thing that was said by one specific person and attempt to refute any future words or acts by that person on that basis. However, even though a GM, coach of players says something asanine, that does not mean you all of a sudden know more than them. I do not understand how this is even an argument. Am I saying NBA players are smarter than the average person on the street. DEFINITELY NOT. However, when it comes to the NBA GAME, they know more than you or I for the simple fact that they have been in the league for quite some time. You have no idea what it takes to play in this league and the work ethic it takes to improve against these caliber players. Thats because all you know is what youve seen on tv or heard from other individuals. These players, coaches, GMs live the NBA game on a daily basis. They know the players, they see the work and dedication it takes. They have a much better understanding of what it takes. There is absolutely NO comparison between them and YOU. None at all. The fact that you are even arguing about this is beyond ludacris.

beliges
03-14-2014, 05:09 PM
Whats funny is that you think appealing to the authority is actually an argument here. If MJ was such a genius, why has he allowed a non-NBA player make the decisions for him?

Again, you dont need to play the NBA game to know more about it than the players who perform. Its evident throughout history with some of the ridiculous things that have been said.

Dude, Im not saying MJ is a genius at evaluating NBA talent. Im simply saying he knows a hell of a lot more than you do. For the simple fact that he was actually in the NBA. LOL.

Zefflin
03-14-2014, 05:27 PM
This is all too funny.

I caught that. Did anyone else? haha that's kinda weird brah. You emulating my online self Zefflin? haha I'm flattered, really.

KnicksorBust
03-14-2014, 05:31 PM
This does not seem that outrageous to me. Durant even broke it down by skill sets: athleticism, footwork, pull-up jumper, etc.

In terms of being able to do as many things as a basketball player could possibly do, I have no problem giving Kobe that credit. His work ethic took his game to levels that others could only dream of. I remember reading something on one of those shot chart websites that showed how Kobe's shots were more distributed than any player that they had charted. Because he can. He doesn't need to just shoot corner 3's or post-ups. He can make a shot from anywhere on the court.

Goose17
03-14-2014, 05:35 PM
It astonishes me how little NBA players know about basketball when evaluating other players lol..


This^

Chronz
03-14-2014, 05:36 PM
No clearly everyone makes mistakes, including NBA coaches, players, gms, fans and etc... You can always pinpoint to one specific thing that was said by one specific person and attempt to refute any future words or acts by that person on that basis. However, even though a GM, coach of players says something asanine, that does not mean you all of a sudden know more than them. I do not understand how this is even an argument. Am I saying NBA players are smarter than the average person on the street. DEFINITELY NOT. However, when it comes to the NBA GAME, they know more than you or I for the simple fact that they have been in the league for quite some time. You have no idea what it takes to play in this league and the work ethic it takes to improve against these caliber players. Thats because all you know is what youve seen on tv or heard from other individuals. These players, coaches, GMs live the NBA game on a daily basis. They know the players, they see the work and dedication it takes. They have a much better understanding of what it takes. There is absolutely NO comparison between them and YOU. None at all. The fact that you are even arguing about this is beyond ludacris.

Forget about the average person talk, we're just gonna have to disagree on your logical fallacy, but one thing I hope you admit, is that you dont NEED to play the NBA game to know and understand MORE about it, than actual NBA players.


I put alot more stock into a writer/analyst that I respect, regardless of whether or not they played the game, over some guy whos constantly bumbling cliches that dont stack up. I love Wilt Chamberlain, one of my favorite athletes ever, but he came off as a moron when he criticized the lack of rebounding and scoring tallies on lack of skill instead of the far more obvious influence of pace of play. Mike Dumbleavy coached the Clippers for years, and his knowledge of the game was outdated. It was outdated even for Magic back in his day. I dont respect someone like that (whos both played and coached the game) over a respected author/writer/analyst...

Its about the absurdities of their stances that discredit them. If what you were saying were true, then players would have a far easier time transitioning into front office jobs, instead we see that those guys are giving alot of leeway, in the GOAT's case, most of the leeway regarding decision making for their clubs.

lol, please
03-14-2014, 05:40 PM
http://wallstcheatsheet.com/sports/nba-kevin-durant-opens-up-about-kobe-bryant.html/?ref=YF

Full article here gives more insight about Durant and his game:
http://www.insidesocal.com/lakers/2014/03/13/lakers-qa-kevin-durant-details-mentorship-from-kobe-bryant/

I've always like Durant's modesty

Don't tell LeBron that, heaven forbid he ever accept reality.

Chronz
03-14-2014, 05:40 PM
Dude, Im not saying MJ is a genius at evaluating NBA talent. Im simply saying he knows a hell of a lot more than you do. For the simple fact that he was actually in the NBA. LOL.

Except that fact is far too simple to take seriously. I already know of people who know more about the NBA than actual NBA players despite never actually playing in the NBA. So why would I care what you think in a comparison you have no knowledge about. So much so, you actually have to rely on logical fallacies and absolute rules to defend it.

Supreme LA
03-14-2014, 05:45 PM
This^

So I take it your hatred towards Kobe also blinds you from the fact that he is at the top when is comes to skill and fundamentals of the game? I guess this means you know more than Jeff Van Gundy who made those comments as well. How else do you think Kobe has played at the lever he has throughout his career without ever being the most athletic player in the league?

I really don't understand some fans. All those reasons KD mentioned are the exact reason why I've always loved Kobe's game. People like us will never have the size, strength, or athleticism of a Lebron or MJ. These are the exact same reasons all kids should learn every aspect of the game because you cannot deny or stop someone with that much skill no matter who they are. The beauty of the game isn't about bulldozing over guys or who can run fastest or jump the highest. Like I said, this is the beauty about the game and something everyone can always achieve through hardwork no matter who they are.

I just wish some of you guys shared these feeling as well.

Chronz
03-14-2014, 05:49 PM
So I take it your hatred towards Kobe also blinds you from the fact that he is at the top when is comes to skill and fundamentals of the game? I guess this means you know more than Jeff Van Gundy who made those comments as well. How else do you think Kobe has played at the lever he has throughout his career without ever being the most athletic player in the league?

I really don't understand some fans. All those reasons KD mentioned are the exact reason why I've always loved Kobe's game. People like us will never have the size, strength, or athleticism of a Lebron or MJ. These are the exact same reasons all kids should learn every aspect of the game because you cannot deny or stop someone with that much skill no matter who they are. The beauty of the game isn't about bulldozing over guys or who can run fastest or jump the highest. Like I said, this is the beauty about the game and something everyone can always achieve through hardwork no matter who they are.

I just wish some of you guys shared these feeling as well.

Well said, in a perfect world we would appreciate all these players for who they are. But comparisons drive profit for most sport outlets and discussion is born from these debates.

But I also think you underrate Kobe's athleticism, a freak athlete for his age group. Testament to his work ethic for sure tho.

Supreme LA
03-14-2014, 05:58 PM
Well said, in a perfect world we would appreciate all these players for who they are. But comparisons drive profit for most sport outlets and discussion is born from these debates.

But I also think you underrate Kobe's athleticism, a freak athlete for his age group. Testament to his work ethic for sure tho.

Yes, I am underrating Kobe his athletic ability a bit. It's great to hear you and Hawkeye profess your appreciation and understanding of how skilled Kobe is as a player because that really is the ultimate reason he is regarded as an all-time great.

Jeffy25
03-14-2014, 06:01 PM
Before this turns into a Kobe-LeBron war, please note he is talking about "SKILL", not impact.

I have no problem with this. Durant isn't old enough to have watched Bird for instance, and the most technically skilled basketball players, fundamentally, in the past 25 years, probably are MJ and Kobe. I don't think Kobe's impact is the same as Duncan, Shaq, or LeBron, but you can easily argue his basketball skill is higher.

Also, remember, Durant's game resembles those guys. I am not sure he would appreciate a Magic/LeBron as much as many others.
yup


and this is just his opinion, and we know how good NBA players are at evaluating talent.

and it's good to publicly say non-critcal things

Hawkeye15
03-14-2014, 06:12 PM
yup


and this is just his opinion, and we know how good NBA players are at evaluating talent.

and it's good to publicly say non-critcal things

posted this a couple of pages ago when I was told that anyone in the NBA knows more about basketball than anyone else.

Pops-never played a minute in the NBA
Thibs- never played a minute in the NBA
Vogel- never played a minute in the NBA
Stotts- played in the CBA
Hornacek- good NBA career

those are the 5 COY candidates.

Buford- never played a minute in the NBA
Bird- HOF'er
Presti- never played a minute in the NBA
Morey- never played a minute in the NBA
Ujiri- never played a minute in the NBA

Probably the 5 best GM's right now

Being an ex-player really doesn't mean you are an expert in the sport. Not when it comes to doing anything outside actually playing it.

Hawkeye15
03-14-2014, 06:14 PM
Yes, I am underrating Kobe his athletic ability a bit. It's great to hear you and Hawkeye profess your appreciation and understanding of how skilled Kobe is as a player because that really is the ultimate reason he is regarded as an all-time great.

He was just able to dominate so long. It is a testament to how good of an athlete he was, and how hard he worked on his craft. He probably is the most skilled perimeter player since Jordan, I agree with that.

savvy1803
03-14-2014, 06:20 PM
So I take it your hatred towards Kobe also blinds you from the fact that he is at the top when is comes to skill and fundamentals of the game? I guess this means you know more than Jeff Van Gundy who made those comments as well. How else do you think Kobe has played at the lever he has throughout his career without ever being the most athletic player in the league?

I really don't understand some fans. All those reasons KD mentioned are the exact reason why I've always loved Kobe's game. People like us will never have the size, strength, or athleticism of a Lebron or MJ. These are the exact same reasons all kids should learn every aspect of the game because you cannot deny or stop someone with that much skill no matter who they are. The beauty of the game isn't about bulldozing over guys or who can run fastest or jump the highest. Like I said, this is the beauty about the game and something everyone can always achieve through hardwork no matter who they are.

I just wish some of you guys shared these feeling as well.

Great post .

abe_froman
03-14-2014, 06:27 PM
is true,they are probably the two most skilled perimeter guys i've ever seen

bucketss
03-14-2014, 06:39 PM
im supposed to be a kobe hater and a lebronphile, but even i admit kobes more skilled than jordan.

Jeffy25
03-14-2014, 06:51 PM
posted this a couple of pages ago when I was told that anyone in the NBA knows more about basketball than anyone else.

Pops-never played a minute in the NBA
Thibs- never played a minute in the NBA
Vogel- never played a minute in the NBA
Stotts- played in the CBA
Hornacek- good NBA career

those are the 5 COY candidates.

Buford- never played a minute in the NBA
Bird- HOF'er
Presti- never played a minute in the NBA
Morey- never played a minute in the NBA
Ujiri- never played a minute in the NBA

Probably the 5 best GM's right now

Being an ex-player really doesn't mean you are an expert in the sport. Not when it comes to doing anything outside actually playing it.
Same thing in baseball

None of the top 10 GM's in the sport ever even played minor league baseball

While the consensus three worst all did.

amos1er
03-14-2014, 07:02 PM
I always thought that Durant was a very classy and honest guy. A very admirable trait for the current best player in the NBA to have. :D

amos1er
03-14-2014, 07:10 PM
im supposed to be a kobe hater and a lebronphile, but even i admit kobes more skilled than jordan.

:clap:

There is hope.

amos1er
03-14-2014, 07:13 PM
He was just able to dominate so long. It is a testament to how good of an athlete he was, and how hard he worked on his craft. He probably is the most skilled perimeter player since Jordan, I agree with that.

His post game is nothing to scoff at either.

amos1er
03-14-2014, 07:15 PM
yup


and this is just his opinion, and we know how good NBA players are at evaluating talent.

and it's good to publicly say non-critcal things

Why don't you tell us why internet bloggers are better at evaluating talent than are top level athletes, coaches, and analysts?

beyourself
03-14-2014, 07:17 PM
I think Jordan and Kobe are about equal in skills. Duncan I think is about par with them too.

But I think Bird probably surpasses them in skill.

What made Jordan so ridiculous is his combination of skill and athleticism. People don't quite understand how athletic he was.

amos1er
03-14-2014, 07:19 PM
So I take it your hatred towards Kobe also blinds you from the fact that he is at the top when is comes to skill and fundamentals of the game? I guess this means you know more than Jeff Van Gundy who made those comments as well. How else do you think Kobe has played at the lever he has throughout his career without ever being the most athletic player in the league?

I really don't understand some fans. All those reasons KD mentioned are the exact reason why I've always loved Kobe's game. People like us will never have the size, strength, or athleticism of a Lebron or MJ. These are the exact same reasons all kids should learn every aspect of the game because you cannot deny or stop someone with that much skill no matter who they are. The beauty of the game isn't about bulldozing over guys or who can run fastest or jump the highest. Like I said, this is the beauty about the game and something everyone can always achieve through hardwork no matter who they are.

I just wish some of you guys shared these feeling as well.


Great post! You just have to learn to laugh at haters like him now a days. At this point it's just a joke to deny Kobe's greatness.

abe_froman
03-14-2014, 07:20 PM
Why don't you tell us why internet bloggers are better at evaluating talent than are top level athletes, coaches, and analysts?

for athletes? because their knowledge base might be limited to just playing,most athletes dont have the time nor interest to obsessively evaluate,to swallow reams of in depth info...whereas random internet bloggers,well that can be a main focus/interest in their lives.

amos1er
03-14-2014, 07:23 PM
for athletes? because their knowledge base might be limited to just playing,most athletes dont have the time nor interest to obsessively evaluate,to swallow reams of in depth info...whereas random internet bloggers,well thats main focus/interest in their lives.

Lol... That's actually a good point.

However, Durant is a player who is currently at the top of his sport. Surely he can be a good judge of evaluating greatness in others because he knows what it took for him to be great.

beyourself
03-14-2014, 07:23 PM
It's amazing what Kobe accomplished given his athleticism. He was never even close to being the most athletic player in the NBA. So look at what he accomplished. That took so much skill.

Hawkeye15
03-14-2014, 07:31 PM
His post game is nothing to scoff at either.

oh not at all, I meant as a perimeter player. Because Duncan would be my pick for most skilled post player since Dream.

abe_froman
03-14-2014, 07:31 PM
Lol... That's actually a good point.

However, Durant is a player who is currently at the top of his sport. Surely he can be a good judge of evaluating greatness in others because he knows what it took for him to be great.

can be? sure,but not necessarily,there have been tons of great players who fail at assessing talent(mj,isiah,ect.).being in the thick of things can skew your perception,or you look at whats in yourself and what you think makes yourself great and make that as a defining characteristic on what makes greatness.

Hawkeye15
03-14-2014, 07:32 PM
Why don't you tell us why internet bloggers are better at evaluating talent than are top level athletes, coaches, and analysts?

yeah, that is the point. It all started with the typical, "he plays/played in the NBA, his word is gospel" crap again. Many of the best GM's/coaches (I listed the top 5 of each above), never played a minute in the NBA.

Hawkeye15
03-14-2014, 07:33 PM
Lol... That's actually a good point.

However, Durant is a player who is currently at the top of his sport. Surely he can be a good judge of evaluating greatness in others because he knows what it took for him to be great.

we won't know how good he is at evaluating talent until he takes a job in some other capacity that deems his job to actually evaluate talent.

Hawkeye15
03-14-2014, 07:36 PM
can be? sure,but not necessarily,there have been tons of great players who fail at assessing talent(mj,isiah,ect.).being in the thick of things can skew your perception,or you look at whats in yourself and what you think makes yourself great and make that as a defining characteristic on what makes greatness,for example-i remembering hearing about how mj would get upset at his teammates for not being better than they were,he couldnt understand why someome like will purdue wasnt beasting like david robinson,believing it was just a lack of willpower on will's part.for a player ,especially one who can excel so easily, you can see very different things in a player than what is actually there.

I have actually thought most great players make poor GM's/talent evaluators, because they don't understand everyone has limitations. They literally look at a player, and think, "maybe I can get through to them". Where as non-basketball, analytical GM's, can see a player for what they are, and what skillset they bring so much better.

There are a few exceptions. Jerry West, Pat Riley, or Larry Bird for example. But for every one of them, there are 10 Zeke's out there. Which is why, at this point in time, the best GM's are guys who never played in the NBA at all.

amos1er
03-14-2014, 07:38 PM
can be? sure,but not necessarily,there have been tons of great players who fail at assessing talent(mj,isiah,ect.).i remembering hearing about how mj would get upset at his teammates for not being better than they were,he couldnt understand why someome like will purdue wasnt beasting like david robinson,believing it was just a lack of will power on will's part.for a player ,especially one who can excel so easily, you can see very different things in a player than what is actually there.

Yes, but MJ has only failed at picking PROSPECTIVE talent like Kwame Brown, not ESTABLISHED talent like Kobe Bryant. In all fairness, Kwame had the physical gifts to be one of the best, he was just mentally soft and it didn't help that Jordan made him cry so many times in practice when he was still young. Probably mentally scared the guy for life. Who knows how Kwame might have been under the right circumstances from a young age. Surely he was mentally soft to begin with, but he might have been a decent roll player or even a solid number two option. The talent was there, it just didn't pan out is my point. Kwame Brown is a poor example because MJ wasn't being asked to judge greatness, he was being asked to judge potential greatness. Two different things all together.

amos1er
03-14-2014, 07:40 PM
I have actually thought most great players make poor GM's/talent evaluators, because they don't understand everyone has limitations. They literally look at a player, and think, "maybe I can get through to them". Where as non-basketball, analytical GM's, can see a player for what they are, and what skillset they bring so much better.

There are a few exceptions. Jerry West, Pat Riley, or Larry Bird for example. But for every one of them, there are 10 Zeke's out there. Which is why, at this point in time, the best GM's are guys who never played in the NBA at all.

West and Riley are still the best GM's in the league IMO. Soon to be followed by Phil.

amos1er
03-14-2014, 07:42 PM
Steve Kerr was a great GM IMO too. He tried to get D'Antoni a defensive specialist, but D'Antoni refused. Not really his fault, and he did put that great roster together with the right coach. Even Gentry was a good pick up at the time.

Hawkeye15
03-14-2014, 07:44 PM
West and Riley are still the best GM's in the league IMO. Soon to be followed by Phil.

Buford, Bird, Presti, Morey, and Urjuri are the best GM's in my opinion. West is a consultant or whatever for GS. Riley is good, but he basically just cleared a **** load of capspace and the players came to him. The 5 I mentioned have shown the ability to build through draft and trades better than any GM working right now.

1 of them played in the NBA.

beyourself
03-14-2014, 07:55 PM
The only thing that Kobe lacked as far as skill would be his ballhandling. Everything else was on point, but he had some high turnover seasons and I remember him having too many high turnover games.

amos1er
03-14-2014, 07:56 PM
Buford, Bird, Presti, Morey, and Urjuri are the best GM's in my opinion. West is a consultant or whatever for GS. Riley is good, but he basically just cleared a **** load of capspace and the players came to him. The 5 I mentioned have shown the ability to build through draft and trades better than any GM working right now.

1 of them played in the NBA.

Still, you have to go by championships. I would agree with Buford. He deserves mention as one of the best for sure. If you go by who has won the most in the past 15 years, it has to be West (Gets most of the credit because he was responsible for Kobe and Shaq/Mitch should be lucky to get an honorable mention), Riley, and Buford.

hidalgo
03-14-2014, 08:04 PM
raw skill maybe they're somewhat close, but MJ beats him in about every major stat, basketball IQ, fundamentals, accomplishments, impact, mvps, huge finals moments, way bigger hands, etc. they're worlds apart when asking "who's better?". raw skill doesn't matter if you can't put it together like MJ did

MJ #1 all time. Kobe is ehhh about #12 or #13

Hawkeye15
03-14-2014, 08:10 PM
Still, you have to go by championships. I would agree with Buford. He deserves mention as one of the best for sure. If you go by who has won the most in the past 15 years, it has to be West (Gets most of the credit because he was responsible for Kobe and Shaq/Mitch should be lucky to get an honorable mention), Riley, and Buford.

why do we have to go strictly by championships? Tossing aside markets, we can't look at it that way. If anything, any GM in LA/NY should immediately get knocked down a peg because its easier than **** to fill out a roster with an unlimited supply of money, and the majority of athletes want to play there.

I am also speaking of right now. Remember, it was common practice to just hire an ex-player forever. But in the past 6-8 years, the league has started to shift more to analytics, so guys like Morey, Hinkie, Presti, Urjuri, etc, are starting to assemble much better teams than any other GM. The league has realized that ex-players actually don't understand how to put a team together as well as the dorks who do nothing but study numbers/players/lineups/x's and o's. And we have also gone away from just hiring ex players as coaches over the past 20 years.

Now, many players end up being excellent coaches. My point, fundamentally was, when I am told, "if an ex-player says something, it's a fact", I laugh my *** off. Because we have more than enough evidence that most ex-players really don't evaluate the game that well.

Ever gotten league pass? I have heard every crew across the board. Ex-players are seriously the dumbest announcers, insight wise, I have ever heard.

Hawkeye15
03-14-2014, 08:11 PM
The only thing that Kobe lacked as far as skill would be his ballhandling. Everything else was on point, but he had some high turnover seasons and I remember him having too many high turnover games.

he can't even palm the ball is my guess why. Lot easier to not lose the handle when you are executing precision footwork when its like a mini-ball in your hands haha

Supreme LA
03-14-2014, 08:31 PM
The only thing that Kobe lacked as far as skill would be his ballhandling. Everything else was on point, but he had some high turnover seasons and I remember him having too many high turnover games.

That's an interesting point. Although, I've never actually seen Kobe mishandle the ball nor have I seen any players take it from him. I think that has more to do with some of his decision making and the fact that he often passed as a last resort through double & triple teams. As far as actual ball handling/dribbling skills, Kobe still has an amazing handle.

Hawkeye15
03-14-2014, 08:38 PM
That's an interesting point. Although, I've never actually seen Kobe mishandle the ball nor have I seen any players take it from him. I think that has more to do with some of his decision making and the fact that he often passed as a last resort through double & triple teams. As far as actual ball handling/dribbling skills, Kobe still has an amazing handle.

I think my point above is why, but yeah, the last thing I think of when I think of Kobe is he has bad handles. For the position, they were way above average.

Supreme LA
03-14-2014, 08:53 PM
raw skill maybe they're somewhat close, but MJ beats him in about every major stat, basketball IQ, fundamentals, accomplishments, impact, mvps, huge finals moments, way bigger hands, etc. they're worlds apart when asking "who's better?". raw skill doesn't matter if you can't put it together like MJ did

MJ #1 all time. Kobe is ehhh about #12 or #13

I don't understand this post at all.

Supreme LA
03-14-2014, 08:55 PM
I think my point above is why, but yeah, the last thing I think of when I think of Kobe is he has bad handles. For the position, they were way above average.

Yeah, MJ was a freak of nature with his hands. It's a definite advantage when a guy can literally dribble with one hand and pick up the ball with that same hand, palm it, twirl his arms in mid air, and then throw it down on your face while sticking out his tongue. Man I miss MJ.

smiddy012
03-14-2014, 08:59 PM
Hes right, Peak Kobe-MJ-Bird are the most skilled scorers we've ever seen.

This.

Bruno
03-14-2014, 09:25 PM
durant is a kobe homer.

old school all-time centers get no love from contemporary wings.

jerellh528
03-14-2014, 09:33 PM
durant is a kobe homer.

old school all-time centers get no love from contemporary wings.

Centers usually aren't the most skilled guys on the court.

beyourself
03-14-2014, 09:40 PM
Centers usually aren't the most skilled guys on the court.

One's with offensive moves are. Actual post moves are pure skill.

jerellh528
03-14-2014, 09:46 PM
One's with offensive moves are. Actual post moves are pure skill.

im talking all around skill. sure post moves are great but thats only 1 part of a basketball players whole skill showcase.
footwork
long range shot
mid range shot
close range shot
layups
left handed shots/layups
ball handling skills
post skills
free throws
play making skills
passing
positioning
rebounding
defense
movement without the ball
creativity
the list can go on forever and ever

IversonIsKrazy
03-14-2014, 09:56 PM
Skill? He's 100% right on this one. Kobe & MJ had remarkable skill.

beyourself
03-14-2014, 10:21 PM
im talking all around skill. sure post moves are great but thats only 1 part of a basketball players whole skill showcase.
footwork
long range shot
mid range shot
close range shot
layups
left handed shots/layups
ball handling skills
post skills
free throws
play making skills
passing
positioning
rebounding
defense
movement without the ball
creativity
the list can go on forever and ever

Tim Duncan.

jerellh528
03-14-2014, 10:25 PM
Tim Duncan.

Tim Duncan is highly skilled, yes. And...?

bbiq
03-14-2014, 10:27 PM
fool hearted comparison please let Jordan be,the man changed the game as well as the rules of the game,had Jordan been able to not be touched from top of key, to the basket like Kobe,and Durant and all the new comers ,I tell you Jordan score 60ppg.while still being all defensive,and the most game taking over player that laced up a pair of sneakers

Hawkeye15
03-14-2014, 10:29 PM
Yeah, MJ was a freak of nature with his hands. It's a definite advantage when a guy can literally dribble with one hand and pick up the ball with that same hand, palm it, twirl his arms in mid air, and then throw it down on your face while sticking out his tongue. Man I miss MJ.

haha, exactly. Phil even said the biggest difference between the two was the hand size. He said it was one of the things that made MJ able to finish with contact so much better. I mean, it makes sense. If you can't palm the ball, versus someone who can treat it like a mini-ball, there is a difference.

Hawkeye15
03-14-2014, 10:31 PM
Centers usually aren't the most skilled guys on the court.

because the taller you are, the more difficult it is to be coordinated, handle, etc. The most skilled player right now is CP3, because he has elite level athletic ability and is my height. The taller you get, the harder it is to do all the necessities of what someone would consider "skill".

Which is why we need to break up perimeter players and big men when discussing skill.

siix
03-14-2014, 10:31 PM
kobe the GOAT

jerellh528
03-14-2014, 10:34 PM
because the taller you are, the more difficult it is to be coordinated, handle, etc. The most skilled player right now is CP3, because he has elite level athletic ability and is my height. The taller you get, the harder it is to do all the necessities of what someone would consider "skill".

Which is why we need to break up perimeter players and big men when discussing skill.

Exactamundo

wizardsfan3
03-14-2014, 11:09 PM
fool hearted comparison please let Jordan be,the man changed the game as well as the rules of the game,had Jordan been able to not be touched from top of key, to the basket like Kobe,and Durant and all the new comers ,I tell you Jordan score 60ppg.while still being all defensive,and the most game taking over player that laced up a pair of sneakers

once again, he said based off PURE SKILL not who changed the game.

ricky recon
03-14-2014, 11:31 PM
It astonishes me how little NBA players know about basketball when evaluating other players lol..

Kobe is one of the most skilled scorers ever but not even close to being one of the most skilled all-around players.

End of story.

I don't want to be too harsh on you, but your first statement lacks a lot of social awareness, and is quite frankly, ignorant and arrogant.

3RDASYSTEM
03-14-2014, 11:37 PM
Before this turns into a Kobe-LeBron war, please note he is talking about "SKILL", not impact.

I have no problem with this. Durant isn't old enough to have watched Bird for instance, and the most technically skilled basketball players, fundamentally, in the past 25 years, probably are MJ and Kobe. I don't think Kobe's impact is the same as Duncan, Shaq, or LeBron, but you can easily argue his basketball skill is higher.

Also, remember, Durant's game resembles those guys. I am not sure he would appreciate a Magic/LeBron as much as many others.

Shooting wise he is on par but its also passing and dribbling is where it gets out of reach for bean Bryant, I want to say JORDAN avg double figure assists in 91' finals, only way bean Bryant could avg close to double figure assists is to play with a player who is known for assists(NASH) and take his position and drop dimes like he did past season, imagine had he put the energy to play like that with SHAQ and not force himself to play that way, which didn't work because he was younger and hungrier so he did his thing

KD is more a scorer but he has more range, more so JORDAN than bean but KD can also rebound and drop dimes plus his handle is nasty for a FOOTER

KD is talking about the shooting skill part mixed with footwork, impact is not even close because had JORDAN got drafted t0 a 50 plus win team with a modern day WILT they would have reached finals every yr, day 1 until SHAQ got fat and they still would go cause JORDAN was that good, impact/game wise

based on skill IVERSON was 2nd to none, now add in supreme athletic talent and toughness both mental and physical and you got one of the best players to ever step on the hardwood, same with KD and others who have came through since the 60's

BIRD is one of the most skilled players ever, hell he relied on pure skill and hustle/toughness his entire career because he wasn't coming down the lane posterizing people like DR J/NIQUE but he could shoot the lights out, his trash talking is legendary

BIRD is the same exact player he was at Indiana state, go back and check and then check out his play in with C's, pure exact same game/style/impact, no PER/WS needed ever

3RDASYSTEM
03-14-2014, 11:51 PM
because the taller you are, the more difficult it is to be coordinated, handle, etc. The most skilled player right now is CP3, because he has elite level athletic ability and is my height. The taller you get, the harder it is to do all the necessities of what someone would consider "skill".

Which is why we need to break up perimeter players and big men when discussing skill.

CP3 doesn't have elite athletic ability at this stage nor at WFOREST, the knee surgery and extra weight show me other wise, pre knee surgery he wasn't elite athletically, he is not on RUSSELL/ROSE/IVERSON/SPUD/NATE/ZEKE/JORDAN/VINCE/NIQUE/DR J/SHAQ/WILT/DREXLER/BRON/BARKLEY level of what I call elite, now that's some elite level athletic ability from your height to KG height...Don't get me wrong CP3 has quickness but he also looks a donut or three away from looking like FELTON 2.0 on the court, and that's not good

of course you don't compare perimeter to bigs when regarding skill, its the same reason why I feel you group the best players all time together and not put them in this order of top 5 or 10 just for the same exact thing you stated about perimeter vs big men, they all belong in same group when discussing best of the best to ever lace'em up, it just makes more sense to me than saying JORDAN is no. 1 when its clearly more dominant players in eras or individually just as good or better players, that doesn't sound like no 1 to me

beyourself
03-15-2014, 12:21 AM
CP3 doesn't have elite athletic ability at this stage nor at WFOREST, the knee surgery and extra weight show me other wise, pre knee surgery he wasn't elite athletically, he is not on RUSSELL/ROSE/IVERSON/SPUD/NATE/ZEKE/JORDAN/VINCE/NIQUE/DR J/SHAQ/WILT/DREXLER/BRON/BARKLEY level of what I call elite, now that's some elite level athletic ability from your height to KG height...Don't get me wrong CP3 has quickness but he also looks a donut or three away from looking like FELTON 2.0 on the court, and that's not good

of course you don't compare perimeter to bigs when regarding skill, its the same reason why I feel you group the best players all time together and not put them in this order of top 5 or 10 just for the same exact thing you stated about perimeter vs big men, they all belong in same group when discussing best of the best to ever lace'em up, it just makes more sense to me than saying JORDAN is no. 1 when its clearly more dominant players in eras or individually just as good or better players, that doesn't sound like no 1 to me

Chris Paul is fat, but that only goes to show how skilled he is. He's 5'11" and fat and he's still this good.

Chronz
03-15-2014, 12:55 AM
That's an interesting point. Although, I've never actually seen Kobe mishandle the ball nor have I seen any players take it from him. I think that has more to do with some of his decision making and the fact that he often passed as a last resort through double & triple teams. As far as actual ball handling/dribbling skills, Kobe still has an amazing handle.

I've seen Kobe lose the ball plenty, he has a great handle, but relying on it too frequently has its consequences sometimes. And when comparing MJ and Kobe, Kobe did mishandle the ball more. But I think you're right about more of his turnovers being a result of his passing.



And btw, Tmac had exquisite handles for someone 6"8, he had superior vision and shooting touch to boot. He just wasn't the finisher those 2 were.

Jeffy25
03-15-2014, 01:38 AM
Why don't you tell us why internet bloggers are better at evaluating talent than are top level athletes, coaches, and analysts?

That isn't what I argued, so I don't see why you would ask a question as though I ever stated it in the first place.

Jeffy25
03-15-2014, 01:43 AM
I have actually thought most great players make poor GM's/talent evaluators, because they don't understand everyone has limitations. They literally look at a player, and think, "maybe I can get through to them". Where as non-basketball, analytical GM's, can see a player for what they are, and what skillset they bring so much better.

There are a few exceptions. Jerry West, Pat Riley, or Larry Bird for example. But for every one of them, there are 10 Zeke's out there. Which is why, at this point in time, the best GM's are guys who never played in the NBA at all.


And speaking in just generalities here, but they tend to be more analytical in the first place.


The same thing in the modern world.

The best sales reps are not expected to hire future sales reps for a company. Just because you are good at a particular skill set, doesn't mean you know how to properly evaluate that skill set and grow that skill set to work in the correct environment. We see it all the time in the professional world.

MJ, Isiah, etc are horrible basketball evaluators. Just because a player says he thinks a particular player is great vs another, doesn't mean he knows what the hell he is talking about.

Joe Morgan is one of the best second basemen to ever play baseball. And he has absolutely zero clue how to evaluate the game, or even what made him such a special and valuable professional baseball player for 20 years. He knew he was kind of good, but he doesn't know what made him so special (fantastic defense, even if it wasn't flashy, was more solid than flashier guys like Brandon Phillips who is less consistent. He also was awesome at getting on base, but had a lower batting average, so he believes he wasn't a very good hitter, even though all those walks he took were of incredible value to his team, and he had surprising power for a guy who played an up the middle position). But Morgan has absolutely no clue. He thinks Ryne Sandberg had a better career than him. Which is flat out ridiculous.

Point is that not all players know what the **** they are talking about.

Just because you have played the game at a professional level, or even are in the hall of fame for playing that sport, doesn't mean you have any clue how to evaluate the game properly from that perspective. You had great talent, you knew how to play the game, react, and be successful. Doesn't mean you understand what actually made you great at the game. You just know you did it.

MTar786
03-15-2014, 02:02 AM
see this is how durant evaluates as opposed to most PSD'ers. you guys will look at shot percentage, he will look at kobes jumper. you will look at his post percentage. he will look at lobes post play and footwork. you will look at numbers. he will look at how many different ways kobe can create a shot. you will look at 3pfg% he will look at how smooth and feared other players are of lobes jumper. he knows what its like on the court. you do not. you're looking at percentages he's looking t SKILLS. which is infact his argument lol. I choose to judge how kd does just btw.

MTar786
03-15-2014, 02:04 AM
I've seen Kobe lose the ball plenty, he has a great handle, but relying on it too frequently has its consequences sometimes. And when comparing MJ and Kobe, Kobe did mishandle the ball more. But I think you're right about more of his turnovers being a result of his passing.



And btw, Tmac had exquisite handles for someone 6"8, he had superior vision and shooting touch to boot. He just wasn't the finisher those 2 were.

damn people seem to forget if tmac wasn't injured all the time he would be top 30 goat easily.. he had the skills to be in the top 10 also.

Jeffy25
03-15-2014, 02:04 AM
Still, you have to go by championships. I would agree with Buford. He deserves mention as one of the best for sure. If you go by who has won the most in the past 15 years, it has to be West (Gets most of the credit because he was responsible for Kobe and Shaq/Mitch should be lucky to get an honorable mention), Riley, and Buford.

If you want, you can easily expand into a system where the best talent doesn't just get loaded onto a single roster, like in baseball.

the role of the GM in baseball is very indicative of the health of the franchise because of the importance of the development systems, trades, and free agency. Considering MLB teams own about 250 players, compared to the NBA, where it's what...20 at the most at any one time?

The ten best GM's in baseball are:
http://nypost.com/2013/11/13/ranking-baseballs-10-best-gms/

I won't make my personal best lists, I'll just share you someone elses


1. Friedman - Rays - never played professional baseball
2. Beane - A's - failed miserably, but did play professional baseball for a very short amount of time
3. Daniels - Rangers - never played professional baseball
4. Dombroski - Tigers - never played professional baseball
5. Mozliak - Cardinals - never played professional baseball
6. Cashman - Yankees - never played professional baseball
7. Epstien - Cubs - never played professional baseball
8. Sabean - Giants - played minor league baseball for a short amount of time
9. Jockeetty - Reds - never played professional baseball
10. Wren - Braves - never played professional baseball

The 10 worst GM's in baseball (I couldn't find just a link to give you, but I'll give you my 10 worst)
one played in the big leagues, another in the minor leagues (and btw, I think Sabean is way overrated as a Gm, I wouldn't have him on my top 10)

30. Ruben Amaro - Phillies - played in the big leagues
29. Jerry Dipoto - Angels - played in the big leagues
28. Doug Melvin - Brewers - played in the minor leagues
27. Dayton Moore - Royals - played in college, but never professionally
26. Ken Williams - White Sox - has since been replaced - played in the big leagues
25. Jack Zdurineck - Mariners - minor league player
24. Larry Bienfest - Marlins - has since been replaced, was a college player, but was riddled with injuries
23. Dan O'Dowd - Rockies - never played professional baseball
22. Josh Byrnes - Padres - never played professional baseball
21. Kevin Towers - D'Backs - career minor league player

2 played in the pros, another 3 played in the minors professionally, and another 2 played in college.


I imagine the same thing can be said in the NBA.

Jeffy25
03-15-2014, 02:06 AM
see this is how durant evaluates as opposed to most PSD'ers. you guys will look at shot percentage, he will look at kobes jumper. you will look at his post percentage. he will look at lobes post play and footwork. you will look at numbers. he will look at how many different ways kobe can create a shot. you will look at 3pfg% he will look at how smooth and feared other players are of lobes jumper. he knows what its like on the court. you do not. you're looking at percentages he's looking t SKILLS. which is infact his argument lol. I choose to judge how kd does just btw.


Do skills matter if they don't translate into production?

nastynice
03-15-2014, 02:11 AM
I agree with KD. You guys do realize that he emphasized that he was talking about SKILL, right? Untouchable, those two. I say put the Dream in there too. Especially considering he was a center.

Iron24th
03-15-2014, 02:23 AM
I respect the heck out of Durant. Guy is such a good player and seems like a good guy as well but no way is Kobe a 1b player of all time. Kobe is top 10 all time for sure but not 1b.

He said 1a :eyebrow:

jerellh528
03-15-2014, 03:37 AM
Do skills matter if they don't translate into production?

I mean, top 10 player ever with 5 rings is somewhat decent production. He achieved his skillset by season after season honing his skills and adding new things to his game, most don't have his work ethic. I mean he's been in the league how long? And just within the past few season he added the dirk leg up jumper. I remember when he took Duncan's bank shot and now when you think of a bank shot from the elbow Duncan and Kobe come to mind as the best at it. It's pretty neat to see new stuff he brings to his game every year. When he came into the league he was pretty green, most thought of him as a highlight reel type of player.

Supreme LA
03-15-2014, 05:21 AM
Do skills matter if they don't translate into production?

Of course not because Kobe has never produced in any capacity whatsoever! So all this talk about him having any skill is just BS. He shouldn't have ever been drafted into the NBA because he lacked all skills needed to stay an elite player over 18 season.

John Walls Era
03-15-2014, 10:24 AM
NBA players suck at evaluating. Not surprising given the amount of good GMs with 0 nba playing experience.

Minimal
03-15-2014, 10:24 AM
Kobes career FG% is only 45% and thats where it ends. Skills don't matter if you can't produce efficiently.

beyourself
03-15-2014, 10:44 AM
Kobes career FG% is only 45% and thats where it ends. Skills don't matter if you can't produce efficiently.

Nobody is saying Kobe is the best player. Or even close in the conversation of Mt. Rushmore players. We just agree with KD that his skills are top notch.

Kobe lacked all time great athleticism and size. He lacked leadership. He lacked basketball IQ (when his shot was off he didn't turn his focus to something else, he just pounded away). He lacked dominance. He was too finesse.

We get all this, but his skills were still on point. When he was hot you might as well just forfeit the game because he was gonna just warp you with his moves.

PhillyFaninLA
03-15-2014, 11:11 AM
Durant its ok, we now know you must have been a D student...Kobe isn't even a top 3 and maybe not a top 5 Laker of all time. He's still great but just not even at the top of his own franchise or even the best player in his franchises history to play during his career.

beliges
03-15-2014, 02:26 PM
Kobes career FG% is only 45% and thats where it ends. Skills don't matter if you can't produce efficiently.

Alot to be said about a guy being the most winningest player of his era. That is where it ends. Efficiency doesn't matter if you can't produce wins.

nastynice
03-15-2014, 02:32 PM
Here's the thing, if you take Lebron James and his freakish athletic talent, and combine it with kobe's basketball skills, like his footwork, body positioning, post game, etc, you would come out with an athlete better than either one of the two. If you agree, then you are basically agreeing that Kobe is a more SKILLED player. Doesn't mean he's a better player period, just means he's more skilled.

David Robinson was a more skilled center than Shaq, but I'd take shaq over him any day of the week.

P&GRealist
03-15-2014, 02:53 PM
He's talking about skillset. Some people here are idiots.

Meaze_Gibson
03-15-2014, 03:18 PM
There is absolutely NO WAY that a casual fan is better at evaluating talent in comparison to basketball players.

Supreme LA
03-15-2014, 03:23 PM
He's talking about skillset. Some people here are idiots.

Exactly. Just goes to show how many ignorant fans are on PSD. I've read a few good comments. The haters however have no idea what they're talking about and they simply will use anything to try to discredit Kobe without even addressing the actually topic. No surprise.

Hawkeye15
03-15-2014, 03:26 PM
Exactly. Just goes to show how many ignorant fans are on PSD. I've read a few good comments. The haters however have no idea what they're talking about and they simply will use anything to try to discredit Kobe without even addressing the actually topic. No surprise.

Most likely because they simply read the thread title and came in ready to pounce. But yeah, simply reading what Durant said, you can tell right away he is talking specifically about offensive SKILL.

Bostonjorge
03-15-2014, 06:55 PM
Durant is not the first and will not be the last great to put kobe high up in these kinds of all time lists.
All this other stuff about kobe not being this or that is a joke.

Also ex players turned coach.

Phill Jackson, Pat Riley, Bill Russell, Doc Rivers and Larry brown all won titles. Then there's solan, Nelson, skils, bird, Wilkins and Scott who all had success as coaches. The best GM's are ex players in Bird,Mitch, West and Riley. The worst GM's like Kahn are even under Jordan in evaluating talent.

Bruno
03-15-2014, 07:44 PM
Buford, Bird, Presti, Morey, and Urjuri are the best GM's in my opinion. West is a consultant or whatever for GS. Riley is good, but he basically just cleared a **** load of capspace and the players came to him. The 5 I mentioned have shown the ability to build through draft and trades better than any GM working right now.

1 of them played in the NBA.
i think Riley deserves to be in your grouping. his clout and history of building a winning tradition is what brought those players to Miami, it at least played a big part. along with the beach and taxes. getting ray to leave boston was huge too.

FOXHOUND
03-15-2014, 08:54 PM
I can't believe there is an argument about whether or not the people in the NBA know more about basketball over the average joe. There's definitely a long list of players who have failed as a coach or GM but to say that's purely about their knowledge over other factors is a stretch. Being a coach or GM is completely different than playing an requires a completely different skill set. The way an NBA player views the game and the way a non player, like Popovich for example, are completely different. This is especially true when talking about great players. Michael Jordan knows the game of basketball very well. He was without a doubt one of the smartest players to play the game, but the way he knows the game is different than the way almost anyone else can comprehend.

It can be very difficult for someone like Jordan, whose ego can't be ignored, to properly judge and evaluate the talent of a player. There are many real aspects of the game overlooked by the analytics wave, some mentioned Ike the preparation, skill set, etc. There's a reason that players like Carmelo Anthony and Russell Westbrook can be killed by analytics based minds and at the same time be heavily praises by some of the best basketball minds in history. There's so much to the game that is overlooked or not comprehended by the non player, and likewise there are aspects overlooked by players that the analytics know. One thing is sure, both groups know a hell of a lot more about basketball than average Joe's. To argue otherwise is a combination of ignorance, arrogance and insecurity.

It's easy to say hey look, Kahn messed up a draft pick. The spotlight on these people, the incredibly small margin for error makes things completely different. How can someone like Daryl Morey find a second round gem like Chandler Parsons and then make a disaster pick on the scale of Royce White? We all like to put our GM hats during draft time or the FA period and do our research and make our opinions. Sometimes we're right, sometimes we're wrong. The difference? When we're wrong no one gives a ****, when they're wrong the whole world knows it and never forgets.

I'll give an example from myself. Over the years I've done pretty well in judging draft picks. I prayed that the Knicks would be in a position or would draft players at spots that turned out better in my mid than theirs. Westbrook, Harden, Lawson and Ibaka are some examples. I loved these players coming out and turns out I was right to do so. Know what other players I have loved? I liked Marcus Williams over Rajon Rondo. I thought MarShon Brooks was going to be a sleeper pick like Tim Hardaway Jr has been this year. How many people loves Shabazz Muhammed in HS? The thing is when I make a decision like that that's wrong there isn't millions on the line, or my job, or cameras in my face, or reporters dying for me to mess up so they can write their witty articles at my expense.

Before you try to judge these experts, and they are experts a it is their profession, try to honestly evaluate your own history of talent evaluation and analysis.

MTar786
03-15-2014, 09:33 PM
Kobes career FG% is only 45% and thats where it ends. Skills don't matter if you can't produce efficiently.

You look at like that. You feel skill means nothing if percentages aren't perfect. I feel percentages don't matter as much as wins. Iduno call me crazy but I think ur choice of priority is pretty crappy

Here il try to bring some light into your direction. When your team drafts a player.. Do u think to yourself hey, I hope this guy brings us some rings! Or do you think I hope this guy has a career average of 51% from the field and no more than 1.8 turnovers per game?

NBA_Starter
03-15-2014, 10:28 PM
If you are looking at Championships so far then it's hard to argue with him.

Jamiecballer
03-15-2014, 10:29 PM
You look at like that. You feel skill means nothing if percentages aren't perfect. I feel percentages don't matter as much as wins. Iduno call me crazy but I think ur choice of priority is pretty crappy

Here il try to bring some light into your direction. When your team drafts a player.. Do u think to yourself hey, I hope this guy brings us some rings! Or do you think I hope this guy has a career average of 51% from the field and no more than 1.8 turnovers per game?
I think you should want a good player who is efficient because it gives you the best chance at rings.

A great player who isn't terribly efficient and still wins rings is receiving tons of help - fact.

Hawkeye15
03-15-2014, 10:44 PM
i think Riley deserves to be in your grouping. his clout and history of building a winning tradition is what brought those players to Miami, it at least played a big part. along with the beach and taxes. getting ray to leave boston was huge too.

I assume you get my point however..

jerellh528
03-15-2014, 10:44 PM
I think you should want a good player who is efficient because it gives you the best chance at rings.

A great player who isn't terribly efficient and still wins rings is receiving tons of help - fact.


A lot of people don't understand basketball. They think just plug a guy who has a ts% of .600 and he can make any team better. Sometimes it's the more aggressive guy or the one who puts x amount more pressure on the defense that equals wins, even if he's just shootin 47%. It's all about team makeup and needs. Not Omg 51%=winzzzz

Hawkeye15
03-15-2014, 10:44 PM
Durant is not the first and will not be the last great to put kobe high up in these kinds of all time lists.
All this other stuff about kobe not being this or that is a joke.

Also ex players turned coach.

Phill Jackson, Pat Riley, Bill Russell, Doc Rivers and Larry brown all won titles. Then there's solan, Nelson, skils, bird, Wilkins and Scott who all had success as coaches. The best GM's are ex players in Bird,Mitch, West and Riley. The worst GM's like Kahn are even under Jordan in evaluating talent.

For all those guys you listed as succeeding, there are 10 times as many that sucked at their jobs.

beyourself
03-15-2014, 10:48 PM
A lot of people don't understand basketball. They think just plug a guy who has a ts% of .600 and he can make any team better. Sometimes it's the more aggressive guy or the one who puts x amount more pressure on the defense that equals wins, even if he's just shootin 47%. It's all about team makeup and needs. Not Omg 51%=winzzzz

Not so sure why efficiency is so hard to understand. If some guy scores 30 ppg with mediocre efficiency and the other scores 30 ppg with good efficiency guess which guy is giving their teammates more possessions and opportunities to contribute? Yea it's the efficient guy who leaves more possessions for his teammates.

jerellh528
03-15-2014, 10:49 PM
Lol. People think basketball is so shallow.

Jamiecballer
03-15-2014, 10:52 PM
A lot of people don't understand basketball. They think just plug a guy who has a ts% of .600 and he can make any team better. Sometimes it's the more aggressive guy or the one who puts x amount more pressure on the defense that equals wins, even if he's just shootin 47%. It's all about team makeup and needs. Not Omg 51%=winzzzz
That's very true but the true greats in this league have been able to do both. Jordan. James. And now Durant.

Hawkeye15
03-15-2014, 10:54 PM
A lot of people don't understand basketball. They think just plug a guy who has a ts% of .600 and he can make any team better. Sometimes it's the more aggressive guy or the one who puts x amount more pressure on the defense that equals wins, even if he's just shootin 47%. It's all about team makeup and needs. Not Omg 51%=winzzzz

The moneyball approach will get you wins, but to really build a contender, it has to be more than that, I agree.

Jamiecballer
03-15-2014, 11:03 PM
The moneyball approach will get you wins, but to really build a contender, it has to be more than that, I agree.

that's not exactly moneyball. moneyball was about taking advantage of market inefficiencies. it would be like building a team around smart defensive players because that skill is so wildly underappreciated and thus underpaid.

Hawkeye15
03-15-2014, 11:12 PM
that's not exactly moneyball. moneyball was about taking advantage of market inefficiencies. it would be like building a team around smart defensive players because that skill is so wildly underappreciated and thus underpaid.

fair, my point was, being a purely analytical GM will only get you so far unless you have a basic understanding of fit or role.

Jeffy25
03-16-2014, 12:14 AM
Moneyball is just capitalizing on market inefficiencies...that's all that it was/is.

Whatever the market inefficiency in today's basketball game would be, it would be going after that.

Jeffy25
03-16-2014, 12:16 AM
Of course not because Kobe has never produced in any capacity whatsoever! So all this talk about him having any skill is just BS. He shouldn't have ever been drafted into the NBA because he lacked all skills needed to stay an elite player over 18 season.


That isn't what I quoted.

Raidaz4Life
03-16-2014, 12:17 AM
Durant is spot on, like most people say though Bird should be thrown in there as well.

Kobe isn't near the athlete that Jordan was though.

MTar786
03-16-2014, 12:30 AM
I think you should want a good player who is efficient because it gives you the best chance at rings.

A great player who isn't terribly efficient and still wins rings is receiving tons of help - fact.

who had a better shot at rings d rob or tim duncan? who had a better shot at rings kobe or bob pettit? because drib was more efficient than timmy and petit was a hell of a lot more efficient than kobe.. you would rather draft barkley over kareem? guys like robert hoary, u think it was right place right time?? i don't think he used his efficiency to win? i think u should change ur answer into 'i would hope the player i draft brings in a sense of winning rather than ANYTHING ELSE'
my point basically is ( and I'm sorry use a game that has a little luck in it as an example here although its mostly skill.. but I'm going as i type lol.) ur looking at it the wrong way. if this were poker you would be praying to get dealt pocket aces.. when whats a better prayer is being dealt a winning hand. And it takes a lot of YOUR skill to win that hand. just because u don't have the highest percentage winning hand doesn't mean that you can't win that particular hand or that you are not the best player at the table. just like a guy who's efficiency at basketball isn't better than say a dwade.. but he's much better at winning titles.

another point i want to mention. lebron is one of the most efficient ever yet he needed more help than pretty much anyone in the history of the sport to win. so basically ur last statement is worthless. everyone needs help. but a winning kind of player does not reflect soley on stats. there are wayyyyyyy too many intangibles in that area

MTar786
03-16-2014, 01:07 AM
I can't believe there is an argument about whether or not the people in the NBA know more about basketball over the average joe. There's definitely a long list of players who have failed as a coach or GM but to say that's purely about their knowledge over other factors is a stretch. Being a coach or GM is completely different than playing an requires a completely different skill set. The way an NBA player views the game and the way a non player, like Popovich for example, are completely different. This is especially true when talking about great players. Michael Jordan knows the game of basketball very well. He was without a doubt one of the smartest players to play the game, but the way he knows the game is different than the way almost anyone else can comprehend.

It can be very difficult for someone like Jordan, whose ego can't be ignored, to properly judge and evaluate the talent of a player. There are many real aspects of the game overlooked by the analytics wave, some mentioned Ike the preparation, skill set, etc. There's a reason that players like Carmelo Anthony and Russell Westbrook can be killed by analytics based minds and at the same time be heavily praises by some of the best basketball minds in history. There's so much to the game that is overlooked or not comprehended by the non player, and likewise there are aspects overlooked by players that the analytics know. One thing is sure, both groups know a hell of a lot more about basketball than average Joe's. To argue otherwise is a combination of ignorance, arrogance and insecurity.

It's easy to say hey look, Kahn messed up a draft pick. The spotlight on these people, the incredibly small margin for error makes things completely different. How can someone like Daryl Morey find a second round gem like Chandler Parsons and then make a disaster pick on the scale of Royce White? We all like to put our GM hats during draft time or the FA period and do our research and make our opinions. Sometimes we're right, sometimes we're wrong. The difference? When we're wrong no one gives a ****, when they're wrong the whole world knows it and never forgets.

I'll give an example from myself. Over the years I've done pretty well in judging draft picks. I prayed that the Knicks would be in a position or would draft players at spots that turned out better in my mid than theirs. Westbrook, Harden, Lawson and Ibaka are some examples. I loved these players coming out and turns out I was right to do so. Know what other players I have loved? I liked Marcus Williams over Rajon Rondo. I thought MarShon Brooks was going to be a sleeper pick like Tim Hardaway Jr has been this year. How many people loves Shabazz Muhammed in HS? The thing is when I make a decision like that that's wrong there isn't millions on the line, or my job, or cameras in my face, or reporters dying for me to mess up so they can write their witty articles at my expense.

Before you try to judge these experts, and they are experts a it is their profession, try to honestly evaluate your own history of talent evaluation and analysis.
Great post!

mngopher35
03-16-2014, 01:55 AM
who had a better shot at rings d rob or tim duncan? who had a better shot at rings kobe or bob pettit? because drib was more efficient than timmy and petit was a hell of a lot more efficient than kobe.. you would rather draft barkley over kareem? guys like robert hoary, u think it was right place right time?? i don't think he used his efficiency to win? i think u should change ur answer into 'i would hope the player i draft brings in a sense of winning rather than ANYTHING ELSE'
my point basically is ( and I'm sorry use a game that has a little luck in it as an example here although its mostly skill.. but I'm going as i type lol.) ur looking at it the wrong way. if this were poker you would be praying to get dealt pocket aces.. when whats a better prayer is being dealt a winning hand. And it takes a lot of YOUR skill to win that hand. just because u don't have the highest percentage winning hand doesn't mean that you can't win that particular hand or that you are not the best player at the table. just like a guy who's efficiency at basketball isn't better than say a dwade.. but he's much better at winning titles.

another point i want to mention. lebron is one of the most efficient ever yet he needed more help than pretty much anyone in the history of the sport to win. so basically ur last statement is worthless. everyone needs help. but a winning kind of player does not reflect soley on stats. there are wayyyyyyy too many intangibles in that area

I don't think this helps your point. You are saying that what matter is the end result once you have all 7 cards laid out (your team). In this example it shows that each Card (player) can only win because of the ones surrounding it. That is luck, which you pointed out.

Statistics tell us that you want to have those aces to start because it will give you the best odds to win on a consistent basis.

MTar786
03-16-2014, 02:10 AM
I don't think this helps your point. You are saying that what matter is the end result once you have all 7 cards laid out (your team). In this example it shows that each Card (player) can only win because of the ones surrounding it. That is luck, which you pointed out.

Statistics tell us that you want to have those aces to start because it will give you the best odds to win on a consistent basis.

lol i like how you decided to ignore the main point and focus on the minor example i used to try to get u to understand where i am going. and then to twist my example. how about u forget my example completely and answer what i used as my point? i mentioned that my example was merely an example of such that is based on what someone wishes their hand is when they get dealt. they pray for a WIN. but anyhow. my example wasn't a great one anyway to begin with lol especially since it can be interpreted in different ways like how u just did.. thats not really your fault.. more so my fault for even using that. my argument is more a friendly message that there is another side and most people tend to look for winning players as an end result. not everyone is efficiency junkies. and i did prove that efficiency does not equal championships. winning ways go a lot further than that. maybe this is a better question to ask you.

would you draft barkley, wade or kareem abdul jabbar if i told u that chuck and wade were going to be more efficient but KAJ was going to provide ou with MUCH MUCH more winning ways? I'm hoping kareem is your choice?

but about the poker.. just for fun, we all know that you hope for a winning hand not those pocket rockets. just as much as pocket aces can statistically help you. they can ruin you and take you out of the game due to either being over confident, over committed to your hand etc.. lol i can turn that into some basketball example too.. but we could go on all day u and i haha.

mngopher35
03-16-2014, 02:34 AM
lol i like how you decided to ignore the main point and focus on the minor example i used to try to get u to understand where i am going. and then to twist my example. how about u forget my example completely and answer what i used as my point? i mentioned that my example was merely an example of such that is based on what someone wishes their hand is when they get dealt. they pray for a WIN. but anyhow. my example wasn't a great one anyway to begin with lol especially since it can be interpreted in different ways like how u just did.. thats not really your fault.. more so my fault for even using that. my argument is more a friendly message that there is another side and most people tend to look for winning players as an end result. not everyone is efficiency junkies. and i did prove that efficiency does not equal championships. winning ways go a lot further than that. maybe this is a better question to ask you.

Wasn't trying to twist anything really, sorry. I saw your post and thought the example used was just bad.


would you draft barkley, wade or kareem abdul jabbar if i told u that chuck and wade were going to be more efficient but KAJ was going to provide ou with MUCH MUCH more winning ways? I'm hoping kareem is your choice?

I would choose Kareem, I don't only look at efficiency and his is better than wade's anyways. He had a bigger impact defensively than Barkley which matters as well. Winning certainly helps too.


but about the poker.. just for fun, we all know that you hope for a winning hand not those pocket rockets. just as much as pocket aces can statistically help you. they can ruin you and take you out of the game due to either being over confident, over committed to your hand etc.. lol i can turn that into some basketball example too.. but we could go on all day u and i haha.

I agree, but would you rather have 7 2 off suit without knowing anything else or pocket rockets. The end result of winning hands includes so many other factors, just like rings in basketball.

Edit: Let me try asking you a question. In what order would you hope for these 5 players: Bill Russell, Jordan, Wilt, Horry, Pippen

amos1er
03-16-2014, 02:43 AM
A lot of people don't understand basketball. They think just plug a guy who has a ts% of .600 and he can make any team better. Sometimes it's the more aggressive guy or the one who puts x amount more pressure on the defense that equals wins, even if he's just shootin 47%. It's all about team makeup and needs. Not Omg 51%=winzzzz

Finally, someone who gets it and can think outside the box. (no pun intended lol) Nice. That's exactly what I have been trying to explain to people for years on here. Just because someone shoots a higher percentage doesn't mean that he is making the defenses react to his style of play and is keeping them second guessing which opens up a lot more opportunities for both himself and his teammates. Then at the end of the game, one can switch it up and go to their go-to moves and really throw them off balance when they are expecting something else entirely. That is part of why Kobe is so good at closing.

amos1er
03-16-2014, 02:47 AM
Not so sure why efficiency is so hard to understand. If some guy scores 30 ppg with mediocre efficiency and the other scores 30 ppg with good efficiency guess which guy is giving their teammates more possessions and opportunities to contribute? Yea it's the efficient guy who leaves more possessions for his teammates.

Then why did Kobe's teammates have their best career seasons playing with him such as Shaq, Gasol, and Odom, while Lebron's teammates have had their career worst seasons when playing with him such as Mo Williams, Big Z, Wade, and Bosh.

amos1er
03-16-2014, 02:48 AM
That's very true but the true greats in this league have been able to do both. Jordan. James. And now Durant.

Jordan, yes. Lebron needed the help of two all stars and 5 guys who can shoot over 40% from 3. Durant has yet to win a title.

amos1er
03-16-2014, 02:56 AM
If you want, you can easily expand into a system where the best talent doesn't just get loaded onto a single roster, like in baseball.

the role of the GM in baseball is very indicative of the health of the franchise because of the importance of the development systems, trades, and free agency. Considering MLB teams own about 250 players, compared to the NBA, where it's what...20 at the most at any one time?

The ten best GM's in baseball are:
http://nypost.com/2013/11/13/ranking-baseballs-10-best-gms/

I won't make my personal best lists, I'll just share you someone elses


1. Friedman - Rays - never played professional baseball
2. Beane - A's - failed miserably, but did play professional baseball for a very short amount of time
3. Daniels - Rangers - never played professional baseball
4. Dombroski - Tigers - never played professional baseball
5. Mozliak - Cardinals - never played professional baseball
6. Cashman - Yankees - never played professional baseball
7. Epstien - Cubs - never played professional baseball
8. Sabean - Giants - played minor league baseball for a short amount of time
9. Jockeetty - Reds - never played professional baseball
10. Wren - Braves - never played professional baseball

The 10 worst GM's in baseball (I couldn't find just a link to give you, but I'll give you my 10 worst)
one played in the big leagues, another in the minor leagues (and btw, I think Sabean is way overrated as a Gm, I wouldn't have him on my top 10)

30. Ruben Amaro - Phillies - played in the big leagues
29. Jerry Dipoto - Angels - played in the big leagues
28. Doug Melvin - Brewers - played in the minor leagues
27. Dayton Moore - Royals - played in college, but never professionally
26. Ken Williams - White Sox - has since been replaced - played in the big leagues
25. Jack Zdurineck - Mariners - minor league player
24. Larry Bienfest - Marlins - has since been replaced, was a college player, but was riddled with injuries
23. Dan O'Dowd - Rockies - never played professional baseball
22. Josh Byrnes - Padres - never played professional baseball
21. Kevin Towers - D'Backs - career minor league player

2 played in the pros, another 3 played in the minors professionally, and another 2 played in college.


I imagine the same thing can be said in the NBA.

Apples and oranges. I don't really know enough about the MLB to debate though. Though I can say that payroll, salary cap and team structure issues are very different as well as the schematics in their entirety. Again, apples and oranges.

amos1er
03-16-2014, 02:58 AM
Kobes career FG% is only 45% and thats where it ends. Skills don't matter if you can't produce efficiently.

Ya, because FG% tells the whole story right. :rolleyes:

Hawkeye15
03-16-2014, 02:59 AM
Then why did Kobe's teammates have their best career seasons playing with him such as Shaq, Gasol, and Odom, while Lebron's teammates have had their career worst seasons when playing with him such as Mo Williams, Big Z, Wade, and Bosh.

This might be the funniest post I have ever read of yours.

Hawkeye15
03-16-2014, 03:02 AM
Apples and oranges. I don't really know enough about the MLB to debate though. Though I can say that payroll, salary cap and team structure issues are very different as well as the schematics in their entirety. Again, apples and oranges.

Or you just happen to be out of your element. The best GM's in the NBA, and the MLB, never stepped foot on an NBA court. This is a fact, if we are measuring CURRENT NBA GM's.

Get used to it. Stats win. The old school way of thinking is dying. Hence why you read/hear LeBron is better than your guy.

amos1er
03-16-2014, 03:07 AM
why do we have to go strictly by championships? Tossing aside markets, we can't look at it that way. If anything, any GM in LA/NY should immediately get knocked down a peg because its easier than **** to fill out a roster with an unlimited supply of money, and the majority of athletes want to play there.

I am also speaking of right now. Remember, it was common practice to just hire an ex-player forever. But in the past 6-8 years, the league has started to shift more to analytics, so guys like Morey, Hinkie, Presti, Urjuri, etc, are starting to assemble much better teams than any other GM. The league has realized that ex-players actually don't understand how to put a team together as well as the dorks who do nothing but study numbers/players/lineups/x's and o's. And we have also gone away from just hiring ex players as coaches over the past 20 years.

Now, many players end up being excellent coaches. My point, fundamentally was, when I am told, "if an ex-player says something, it's a fact", I laugh my *** off. Because we have more than enough evidence that most ex-players really don't evaluate the game that well.

Ever gotten league pass? I have heard every crew across the board. Ex-players are seriously the dumbest announcers, insight wise, I have ever heard.

I get what your saying, but it's hard to argue against winning. Evaluating based on spending (which has been nullified for the most part due to the new salary cap constraints) and preferred destinations definitely gives certain people advantages and one could argue handicapping based on that notion. Still, Buford was able to pull it off for years in a place without a top grossing franchise and desirable location. I give him mad props for sure. Still, historically the best GM's in terms of winning have been ex-players. Perhaps that will change in the future as a lot of them do suck at their jobs as you noted and there is an increase in non ex-players being hired. Time will tell.

amos1er
03-16-2014, 03:08 AM
This might be the funniest post I have ever read of yours.

It's true.

amos1er
03-16-2014, 03:10 AM
Or you just happen to be out of your element. The best GM's in the NBA, and the MLB, never stepped foot on an NBA court. This is a fact, if we are measuring CURRENT NBA GM's.

Get used to it. Stats win. The old school way of thinking is dying. Hence why you read/hear LeBron is better than your guy.

Pat Riley is still the current GM champion. Until that changes, your argument won't hold any water.

blystr2002
03-16-2014, 03:30 AM
Soo many players that play against other players, practice, and watch the game have put Kobe in the top 5 and compared him to Jordan albeit not right next to him yet fans who just watch deny it and throw so many people in front of him because they hate the Lakers or his personality. How can soo many people that have played the game or coached the game be wrong. It is the same with everybody within the league considering him the best in the world for a good 5-7 year span, but soo many people in here don't even want to give him 2 years as the best in the league. I am not saying he is Jordan by any means, but really stop hating. He is in the convo for a reason.

Supreme LA
03-16-2014, 04:00 AM
I'm not sure how much this actually has to do with the topic but I've always been of the mind that players are better at evauluating talent than fans. I mean, these guys actually play against these guys on the court. So when Dirk, Duncan, Bruce Bowen, Tony Allen, Melo, KD, Chauncey Billips, and pretty much the majority of the league say Kobe is without a doubt the best player they've ever faced or of their generation I tend to believe them. Kobe's time has passed however and Lebron is no doubt at the top now with only KD slightly behind him.

I just simply read it as how I would evaluate players I play against. I don't think about a guys efficiency when I'm playing against him on the court. I just know what guy is the toughest to guard and I take notice of what the man is able to do and if I have any chance at stopping him or not. So when players praise Kobe or Lebron, I pretty much accept it as truth.

JWorthy42
03-16-2014, 04:14 AM
I don't see the problem anyone can have with Duran't statement.

Kobe and MJ are arguably the most skilled offensive machines to ever step on the court. Skill-wise Kobe is a Top 3 player of All-Time. That is the main reason for his insane longevity.

1. MJ
1b. Kobe
1c. Bird

(in terms of skill).

amos1er
03-16-2014, 04:26 AM
I don't see the problem anyone can have with Duran't statement.

Kobe and MJ are arguably the most skilled offensive machines to ever step on the court. Skill-wise Kobe is a Top 3 player of All-Time. That is the main reason for his insane longevity.

1. MJ
1b. Kobe
1c. Bird

(in terms of skill).

I would agree with this. I always did respect Bird's game and work ethic even though he was a Celtic.

numba1CHANGsta
03-16-2014, 04:53 AM
And he's right, LeBron and Durant don't have the skill set Kobe and MJ had because they're built to be a SF/PF not a SG

Supreme LA
03-16-2014, 06:11 AM
And he's right, LeBron and Durant don't have the skill set Kobe and MJ had because they're built to be a SF/PF not a SG

Actually. KD is certainly developing all the necessary offensive skills to rival both Kobe and MJ but he's just not quite there yet. I wouldn't be surprised to see him reach that point within the next 2 years. It's only right because players emulate the great players of the past. Kobe learned from MJ, KD and Paul George are taking notes from Kobe. I've even seen instances where Lebron has attempted to emulate Kobe's footwork in the post and I think it's great to see because it would be shame for the game of basketball to lose some of the most fundamental skills a player can have as a foundation for their game. It also goes to show that these young players have developed a full understanding of the game by developing all the proper mechanics and techniques.

I see your point, but I do believe anybody no matter what position they play can develop those skills. Just look at Hakeem for example. While he would never have any opportunity to develop a perimeter game, his offensive skill 15 ft and in would rival anyone no matter what position they played.

With all of that said, the most offensively skilled young players of this generation are CP3 and KD. I don't think anyone could argue that.

torocan
03-16-2014, 08:20 AM
I don't see the problem anyone can have with Duran't statement.

Kobe and MJ are arguably the most skilled offensive machines to ever step on the court. Skill-wise Kobe is a Top 3 player of All-Time. That is the main reason for his insane longevity.

1. MJ
1b. Kobe
1c. Bird

(in terms of skill).

If you're talking pure skill set and not getting pulled into a GOAT discussion, then I have no problem with what Durant said.

Kobe's skill set on the floor is ridiculous. So was MJ. So was Bird.

If Kobe had LBJ's size and athleticism, he'd be in the running for GOAT. Even with Lebron's incomplete skill set, he's on a career trajectory for top 5 all time. Imagine if he had MJ's or Kobe's footwork and skillset...

Folks need to step back and see what they actually DO on the floor instead of being dazzled by the athleticism...

Supreme LA
03-16-2014, 08:47 AM
With all of this talk about some of the greatest skilled players of all-time I would like to give T-Mac some mention.

Jamiecballer
03-16-2014, 08:57 AM
who had a better shot at rings d rob or tim duncan? who had a better shot at rings kobe or bob pettit? because drib was more efficient than timmy and petit was a hell of a lot more efficient than kobe.. you would rather draft barkley over kareem? guys like robert hoary, u think it was right place right time?? i don't think he used his efficiency to win? i think u should change ur answer into 'i would hope the player i draft brings in a sense of winning rather than ANYTHING ELSE'
my point basically is ( and I'm sorry use a game that has a little luck in it as an example here although its mostly skill.. but I'm going as i type lol.) ur looking at it the wrong way. if this were poker you would be praying to get dealt pocket aces.. when whats a better prayer is being dealt a winning hand. And it takes a lot of YOUR skill to win that hand. just because u don't have the highest percentage winning hand doesn't mean that you can't win that particular hand or that you are not the best player at the table. just like a guy who's efficiency at basketball isn't better than say a dwade.. but he's much better at winning titles.

another point i want to mention. lebron is one of the most efficient ever yet he needed more help than pretty much anyone in the history of the sport to win. so basically ur last statement is worthless. everyone needs help. but a winning kind of player does not reflect soley on stats. there are wayyyyyyy too many intangibles in that area

All things being equal the guy with the better teammates has the better chance to win. Robinson never had Ginobili and Parker and Popovich, or Kobe, Pau and Phil. Duncan did.

Hell Wade in Kobe's place has at least as many rings because they do the same things only Wade did them more effectively. Kobe's longevity blows Wades away though.

Lebron achieved more with less than anyone so your entire post, to use your words, is useless.

Jamiecballer
03-16-2014, 09:04 AM
With all of this talk about some of the greatest skilled players of all-time I would like to give T-Mac some mention.

I agree. It sickens me to this day that we had him and let him get away.

ewing
03-16-2014, 09:26 AM
why do we have to go strictly by championships? Tossing aside markets, we can't look at it that way. If anything, any GM in LA/NY should immediately get knocked down a peg because its easier than **** to fill out a roster with an unlimited supply of money, and the majority of athletes want to play there.

I am also speaking of right now. Remember, it was common practice to just hire an ex-player forever. But in the past 6-8 years, the league has started to shift more to analytics, so guys like Morey, Hinkie, Presti, Urjuri, etc, are starting to assemble much better teams than any other GM. The league has realized that ex-players actually don't understand how to put a team together as well as the dorks who do nothing but study numbers/players/lineups/x's and o's. And we have also gone away from just hiring ex players as coaches over the past 20 years.

Now, many players end up being excellent coaches. My point, fundamentally was, when I am told, "if an ex-player says something, it's a fact", I laugh my *** off. Because we have more than enough evidence that most ex-players really don't evaluate the game that well.

Ever gotten league pass? I have heard every crew across the board. Ex-players are seriously the dumbest announcers, insight wise, I have ever heard.


The sixers have a good team? Anyway, yes stats are a very important tool however all but i think being around the game on the floor is important to. Urjuri played D1 ball and professionally in Europe and Hinkee was d3 gym rat. Only 2 of the guys you mentioned are just "stat dorks" like you are making them out to be plus Hinkee and Morely are the only ones i consider successful at this point. Btw, i'm curious which stats said Landry Feilds was worth 7 mil a year?